Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:11:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike <mike@seidata.com> To: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com> Cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>, John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: the place of vi Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980414122123.12362A-100000@seidata.com> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980414080743.23505A-100000@shell.futuresouth.com>
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On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> Which mysteriously fails to work when you lose /usr, so it's not too
> helpful.
Sure... it's helpful under normal operating conditions. I never said it
was helpful in single user mode, but... rather, said to use ed for that.
> Agreed. What we're *NOT* agreed on is what editor it should be. ed is
> only marginally more useful than echo and sed.
Which editor do you think it should be? I guess my point is... if you
don't like what exists, fix it.
> Why stop with mastering ed? Just go ahead and master the aforementioned
> echo/sed combination. Heck, why stop there? All you need is echo and
> /dev/{s|w}d0s1a. Actually, why add all the complexity? Just wire up an
> adaptor to hook a VT100 up to the IDE connection on the hard drive, and
> do everything directly...
That'd be a good plan... diverse knowledge is a system administrator's
friend. You're *never* going to be able to do the same task the same
exact way 100% of the time. So be prepared to use the tools that are
available to you... that's why they're there.
> I guess my point is I agree with what you're saying, but not with what
> you're SAYING. I think the line should be drawn at vi, not below it.
And I understand what you are saying... Don't get me wrong, I'm not
against using vi in single user mode. That was never the point of my
original post (which is why i mentioned making the necessary modifications
to vi, as did others). I love vi...
> What're you going to say to a poor non-hacker when their system fails to
> mount their /usr partition, and you can just BARELY convince them that
> vi is usable? What're the chances that your recent convert from Windows
> is going to believe in FreeBSD's superiority when they have no recource
> but to use ed when they make one small mistake somewhere??
This is where I disagree... While it is sometimes advantageous to create
new tools (which may or may not be more user friendly), it is most
certainly *not* always best to write tools just to make things easier for
the new user. Sure ed may seem daunting... so read a book. Vi seems
just as daunting if you've never read the man page or checked out 'Using
the vi editor'. In short, I guess I'm telling all the 'convert[s] from
Windows' to RTFM. Afterall, I don't see M$ shipping copies of vi with all
their operating systems because unix guys that administer 95 and NT
domains want tools they're familiar with... so why should the unix world
ship the eqivilent of DOS' edit with their distributions?
Yes, this may seem a little harsh... but I've always believed that
learning was a good thing. You may not like ed, but if you're just a new
user it's unlikely that you're a system administrator for a large
domain. If you are an admin, you should be familiar with such things
already. Point being, read the book, install and play with at home, and
LEARN from your experiences. Then, once you're familiar with the basic
system tools... rewrite something if you don't like it. I, however, do
not have sympathy for someone who wants something easier to use simply
because they 'did it once and will never do it again...'. I'm sure,
afterall, that if everyone had that attitude, FreeBSD and most of the
tools used on it wouldn't exist.
Lastly, I've never meant any of my posts to seem condescending toward
anyone or to sound like I'm picking on someone. I'm not. There's always
things you don't know... I've just always firmly believed that 'not
knowing' is a great reason to learn... not to whine. Especially on a
-hackers list... where I'd like to think the kernel gurus hang out...
and I'm sure they don't need to hear a discussion of why vi won't work in
single user mode.
---
Mike Hoskins Kettering University
SEI Data Network Services, Inc. CS/CE Dual-Major Program
mike@seidata.com hosk0094@kettering.edu
http://www.seidata.com http://www.kettering.edu
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