From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 7 5:29:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF60937B528 for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 05:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10697; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:29:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [Doug Sheppard ] Waiting for Bob From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 May 2000 14:29:17 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 40 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=-=-= Reposted with Doug's permission. Doug Sheppard is a co-author of the comic strips _Waiting For Bob_ () and _Broken By Design_ (). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline X-From-Line: doug@waitingforbob.com Fri May 5 23:21:24 2000 Return-Path: Received: from nodes13.dlcwest.com (nodes13.dlcwest.com [139.142.41.44]) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA02136 for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 23:21:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from doug@waitingforbob.com) Received: (qmail 25798 invoked from network); 5 May 2000 21:23:11 -0000 Received: from localhost (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 May 2000 21:23:11 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 15:23:10 -0600 (CST) From: Doug Sheppard X-Sender: sirilyan@fnord To: des@ofug.org Subject: Waiting for Bob X-Gnus-Mail-Source: file:/var/mail/des Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 7 Xref: flood.ping.uio.no mail.misc:3466 Hi- Saw your ofug.org page in our referrer logs, and I thought you might like to know that even if it hasn't really come up in either Waiting for Bob or Broken By Design yet, Bernie is a FreeBSD girl at heart. :-) Waiting for Bob - http://www.waitingforbob.com/ - No Godot, just comics. --=-=-=-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 7 5:31:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B006537BE9A for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 05:31:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10723; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:31:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Vincent Poy Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hard Disk Data Recovery References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 May 2000 14:31:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: Vincent Poy's message of "Fri, 5 May 2000 11:37:41 -1000 (HST)" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Vincent Poy writes: > On 5 May 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Vincent Poy writes: > > > On 5 May 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > No. We have backups. > > > That's easy to say for Desktops but notebooks are harder to backup. > > Not really. > Depends. On a desktop, you can easily clone the drives. On a > notebook, how do you clone the drives or do images to CDs without taking > the drive out and connecting it to a desktop? I don't know what weird things *you* guys do to back up your boxen, but most of "the rest of us" use something like Amanda, or dump(8) piped through rsh(1) or ssh(1). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 7 6:34:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48D137B530; Sun, 7 May 2000 06:34:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9D38D9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.157.56.217]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA30900; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:33:01 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55D1AC2C; Sun, 7 May 2000 15:38:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA07253; Sun, 7 May 2000 15:33:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 15:33:56 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/archivers Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress/files md5 ports/archivers/mscompress/pkg COMMENT DESCR PLIST Message-ID: <20000507153356.A7211@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@freebsd.org References: <200005071320.GAA87412@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005071320.GAA87412@freefall.freebsd.org>; from jedgar@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, May 07, 2000 at 06:20:58AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Chris D. Faulhaber (jedgar@FreeBSD.ORG): > New port: mscompress, a Microsoft "compress.exe/expand.exe" > compatible (de)compressor You've just sold your soul, congrats :) Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 7 11: 6:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts2.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A62AF37BAC2 for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 11:06:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from Hamilton-ppp44812.sympatico.ca ([206.172.130.26]) by tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20000507180631.XMPW1435.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@Hamilton-ppp44812.sympatico.ca>; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:06:31 -0400 Received: (from tim@localhost) by Hamilton-ppp44812.sympatico.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA20039; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:06:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 14:06:28 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Will Andrews Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports INDEX Message-ID: <20000507140628.A19558@Hamilton-ppp44812.sympatico.ca> References: <199912280955.BAA16028@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Will Andrews on Tue, Dec 28, 1999 at 06:10:08AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 28, 1999 at 06:10:08AM -0500, Will Andrews wrote: > > > > Log: > > New index, with 2,909 ports. This may be the last index of 1,999 (no, > > it's not the last one of the century of the millenium, not by a long > > shot). > > > > And 2,909 is a prime. (How fitting. :) > > I'd be proud if we broke 3,000 by the time 4.0-RELEASE comes out. And I have > the feeling that we will. > > Maybe we'll get 3,011 for another prime, just before the CD burning. ;> Ya, old email, I know. Good reading, though. :) -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 7 11:24:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rock.ghis.net (rock.ghis.net [209.222.164.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD25737C16D; Sun, 7 May 2000 11:24:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (03-040.dial.008.popsite.net [209.69.196.40]) by rock.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA70353; Sun, 7 May 2000 11:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D4D4019E9; Sun, 7 May 2000 13:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 13:52:36 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Alexander Langer Cc: "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/archivers Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress/files md5 ports/archivers/mscompress/pkg COMMENT DESCR PLIST Message-ID: <20000507135236.D58516@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <200005071320.GAA87412@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000507153356.A7211@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000507153356.A7211@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:33:56PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:33:56PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > > New port: mscompress, a Microsoft "compress.exe/expand.exe" > > compatible (de)compressor > > You've just sold your soul, congrats :) Nope - how else are you going to get data compressed by Microsoft weenies decompressed on your machine so you can compress it in a better format? :) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 7 12:17: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 436D837B80E; Sun, 7 May 2000 12:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id VAA25588; Sun, 7 May 2000 21:18:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <20000507211801.C25313@foobar.franken.de> Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:18:01 +0200 From: Harold Gutch To: Will Andrews , Alexander Langer Cc: "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/archivers Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress/files md5 ports/archivers/mscompress/pkg COMMENT DESCR PLIST References: <200005071320.GAA87412@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000507153356.A7211@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000507135236.D58516@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <20000507135236.D58516@argon.blackdawn.com>; from Will Andrews on Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:52:36PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:52:36PM -0400, Will Andrews wrote: > On Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:33:56PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > > > New port: mscompress, a Microsoft "compress.exe/expand.exe" > > > compatible (de)compressor > > > > You've just sold your soul, congrats :) > > Nope - how else are you going to get data compressed by Microsoft weenies > decompressed on your machine so you can compress it in a better format? :) As the data originates from some avarage Microsoft weenie, you could use rm(1) or dd(1) in combination with /dev/null - and gzip(1) if you wish :). bye, Harold -- Someone should do a study to find out how many human life spans have been lost waiting for NT to reboot. Ken Deboy on Dec 24 1999 in comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 7 12:41:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4561837B656 for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 12:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C1161.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.97]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08962 for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 20:40:24 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA8AAC2D for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 21:46:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05225 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 7 May 2000 21:41:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:41:43 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/archivers Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress/files md5 ports/archivers/mscompress/pkg COMMENT DESCR PLIST Message-ID: <20000507214143.G3267@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200005071320.GAA87412@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000507153356.A7211@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000507135236.D58516@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV" X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000507135236.D58516@argon.blackdawn.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:52:36PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thus spake Will Andrews (andrews@technologist.com): > > You've just sold your soul, congrats :) > Nope - how else are you going to get data compressed by Microsoft weenies > decompressed on your machine so you can compress it in a better format? :) Magic? Heh, of course you are right :-) Alex --=20 I need a new ~/.sig. --VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.1 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQEVAwUBORXG9rRIIUSeqRcRAQG43Qf+L6xj6ambenx2qMJjOfzjFroPhORC0DQ5 xG2NyeimXlYs9PkQRwahwKdH+y5Ip3s3Ij/qjnqSd4vyobqqQQ97P7P3xx1xSe5H FqEzWel/QEbiEGaR/usqIY81aKuUdAPS3+K4wfKGpX5Ud6GP96QacXPH/LT4pUr6 wiIG3bJom4hNJWH7CbJ0Vtx2xXe8vggP64jI4wZhzfyRBfIxOguUkfFY46utAed0 P7jF+GaLe6nw+8iO5Zjc5ggYWkSLgqk2Z/1/0ZaeUO1jcYpCUCFlOIFnw5tKoPTF C5porVJJVDTkJES4hGbHRkeg+DJLe/uIgND18k0Oz+HoJUs9cIYHug== =TWdY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VdOwlNaOFKGAtAAV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 7 14: 9:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245D437B6F6 for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 14:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id XAA26003; Sun, 7 May 2000 23:10:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <20000507231035.A25962@foobar.franken.de> Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 23:10:35 +0200 From: Harold Gutch To: Alkis Evlogimenos , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4bsd Operating System" References: <39154605.6D5A9371@flashcom.net> <3915D1B6.6CDFFE2C@flashcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3915D1B6.6CDFFE2C@flashcom.net>; from Alkis Evlogimenos on Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:27:34PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Sun, May 07, 2000 at 01:27:34PM -0700, Alkis Evlogimenos wrote: > Alkis Evlogimenos wrote: > > > > I was wondering if this book is far too off the current state of > > FreeBSD. Are there fundamental differences between the design of 4.4BSD > > and FreeBSD? > > Thanks. I just ordered it. > I guess I will have something else to do in the summer besides laying on > the warm beaches of Cyprus :-) Uhm, you know, you can have mine and I'll go lie in the sun on the beaches on Cyprus instead of you - how does that sound? :) bye, Harold -- Someone should do a study to find out how many human life spans have been lost waiting for NT to reboot. Ken Deboy on Dec 24 1999 in comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 7 23:12:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nscache2.x-treme.gr (mail1.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9149D37BDAB for ; Sun, 7 May 2000 23:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat3.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.195]) by nscache2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id JAA01831 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 09:11:57 +0300 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e47I0SM69232 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 7 May 2000 21:00:28 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:00:28 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: mscompress port Message-ID: <20000507210028.A69213@hades.hell.gr> References: <200005071320.GAA87412@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000507153356.A7211@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000507153356.A7211@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:33:56PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 07, 2000 at 03:33:56PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Chris D. Faulhaber (jedgar@FreeBSD.ORG): > > > New port: mscompress, a Microsoft "compress.exe/expand.exe" > > compatible (de)compressor > > You've just sold your soul, congrats :) Oh, well. Then we should probably nuke the ports for zip/unzip too, because the real men use gzip/bzip? Seriously now. I think that being able to interoperate with others, no matter what operating environment they prefer, is a good thing. It is other things that I usually worry about, more often than not one of them is to keep lawyers away from my box. Is that thing exportable from US? Is the algorithm used for compression and decompression free for distribution, or should the users pay some royalties to Microsoft or someone else? Ciao, Giorgos Keramidas. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 8 7:11:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A925C37B8A0 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 07:11:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03194; Mon, 8 May 2000 10:11:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200005081411.KAA03194@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3916A351.6D13BF45@originative.co.uk> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 10:11:09 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Paul Richards Subject: Re: Poll tally so far: Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, Joe Karthauser Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected to -chat ] On 08-May-00 Paul Richards wrote: > Joe Karthauser wrote: >> /me raises hand too. > > Hey, I recognise what that means now that Bigknife's given me an > impromtu IRC lesson. > > Thanks Bigknife :-) So now someone knows me more by my IRC nick than my actual name. I suppose it's time to go out and see the sun a bit more often each day. :-) And, your welcome, Paul. :) > Paul. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 8 7:14:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [212.74.0.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACF337B92E; Mon, 8 May 2000 07:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@pavilion.net) Received: from genius.systems.pavilion.net (postfix@genius.systems.pavilion.net [212.74.1.100]) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA93573; Mon, 8 May 2000 15:14:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe@pavilion.net) Received: by genius.systems.pavilion.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 56A36304; Mon, 8 May 2000 15:14:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 15:14:36 +0100 From: Joe Karthauser To: John Baldwin Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Poll tally so far: Message-ID: <20000508151436.L52738@pavilion.net> References: <3916A351.6D13BF45@originative.co.uk> <200005081411.KAA03194@server.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005081411.KAA03194@server.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 10:11:09AM -0400 X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, Lees House, 21-23 Dyke Road, Brighton, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 08, 2000 at 10:11:09AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > [ redirected to -chat ] > > > Hey, I recognise what that means now that Bigknife's given me an > > impromtu IRC lesson. > > > > Thanks Bigknife :-) > > So now someone knows me more by my IRC nick than my actual name. > I suppose it's time to go out and see the sun a bit more often > each day. :-) > > And, your welcome, Paul. :) Ah!! That's know BigKnife is :). Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 8 9:37: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486C837B95E; Mon, 8 May 2000 09:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA65859; Mon, 8 May 2000 09:36:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <3916ED29.881932E7@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 09:36:57 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0507 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.org, Joe Karthauser Subject: Re: Poll tally so far: References: <200005081411.KAA03194@server.baldwin.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > So now someone knows me more by my IRC nick than my actual name. > I suppose it's time to go out and see the sun a bit more often > each day. :-) One day at a time, one day at a time. Doug (Recovering IRC network administrator) -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 8 14: 4:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E1637BC88; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:04:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA87694; Mon, 8 May 2000 14:04:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:04:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Alexander Langer Cc: "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/archivers Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress/files md5 ports/archivers/mscompress/pkg COMMENT DESCR PLIST In-Reply-To: <20000507153356.A7211@cichlids.cichlids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 7 May 2000, Alexander Langer wrote: > > New port: mscompress, a Microsoft "compress.exe/expand.exe" > > compatible (de)compressor > > You've just sold your soul, congrats :) Nah, the only committer who has sold his soul lately is Bill Fumerola, for that damned vigor port. I'm *still* having nightmares involving a giant paperclip who is chasing me and I can't get away and no matter what I do it's still there following me smiling that unholy smile like some spawn o' Satan and just when I think I've finally escaped I turn around and oh god there it is again! Okay, Kris, take it easy..go to your happy place..that's it..paperclip's not going to bother you ANY more.. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 8 18: 1:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F44937B591 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 18:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r5.bfm.org [216.127.220.101]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 20:02:20 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000508200037.008ad940@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 20:00:37 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Interview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have submitted some listing to SuperShareware.com. They offered me an interview. One of the questions is what is my favorite application. I said I did not have one, but that my favorite OS was FreeBSD. See http://www.SuperShareware.com/ASP/Buildframe.asp?Url=ReadInterview&Id=10632 if curious. They offer the interview option to any shareware author. If you are one, you may want to consider gettingr own interview and mentioning FreeBSD in it. Quite a nice way (IMHO) to get us some exposure among Windows users. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 8 18:30:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f113.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.241.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D78B37BC3D for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 18:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmd526@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 52124 invoked by uid 0); 9 May 2000 01:30:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20000509013007.52123.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.220.228.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 08 May 2000 18:30:07 PDT X-Originating-IP: [209.220.228.2] From: "John Daniels" To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org Subject: *BSD RULES! (especially if you *VOTE*) Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 21:30:07 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi: If you have not seen my previous emails asking for your vote for a native port of Java on *BSD at Sun's Java Developers Connection (JDC), please vote now (JDC membership is free) at: * http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4288745.html If you would like more information, please see: * http://www.freebsd.org/java If have voted already, THANK YOU. Did you know that you have 3 votes? (unethical? Hey I don't make the rules) Now for some statistics: Since my first message about 3 weeks ago, nearly 400 votes have been recorded for the Java on FreeBSD Request for Enhancement (RFE), an increase of 13.4%! Our RFE now has 4 times as many votes as the #2 RFE, and as many votes as the next 8. The more votes that we can get, the more powerful is the *BSD message to Sun. FYI: IBM has announced an "early release" of JDK 1.3 on Linux. Several *BSD friendly folks have started requesting a port of the IBM JDK in the discussion forum at: * http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/aw.nsf/discussion?ReadForm&/forum/linuxjdk.nsf/discussion?createdocument (Look for "FreeBSD support" in the Linux-JDK-1.3.0 discussion list.) This will be my last "get out the vote" message for a while, as I think that I have reached most people who care to vote. Lastly, I would like to thank the FreeBSD Java porting team once again for their outstanding efforts. I, myself, am not a part of the java porting team, just a user who would like to use a native port and support the *BSD platform. John PS Please forward this message to any person, list, or organization that may want to support this effort. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 8 18:31:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFD237B565 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 18:31:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12oyrc-000834-02; Tue, 9 May 2000 03:31:08 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA75879 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 May 2000 02:12:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? Date: 9 May 2000 02:12:54 +0200 Message-ID: <8f7l66$2a2p$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How do English speakers effectively pronounce "TeX"? (Yes, I know what Knuth says how it's pronounced.) -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 8 18:49:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAC337B8FA; Mon, 8 May 2000 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA42967; Mon, 8 May 2000 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:49:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? In-Reply-To: <8f7l66$2a2p$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 May 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > How do English speakers effectively pronounce "TeX"? "Tek", although some of my co-students pronounce it "Tex". Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 8 23:47:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A6337B940 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 23:47:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA47745 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 8 May 2000 23:47:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 23:47:41 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Headcount for May San Francisco BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <20000508234741.A47733@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 6pm it would be very helpful. See our web page ( http://www.bafug.org ) for more info. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 3:29:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C113C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B69037BDFB; Tue, 9 May 2000 03:29:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF81AC2E; Tue, 9 May 2000 12:34:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04183; Tue, 9 May 2000 12:29:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:29:31 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/archivers Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress Makefile ports/archivers/mscompress/files md5 ports/archivers/mscompress/pkg COMMENT DESCR PLIST Message-ID: <20000509122931.B4127@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Kennaway , "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20000507153356.A7211@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Mon, May 08, 2000 at 02:04:52PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Kris Kennaway (kris@FreeBSD.org): > Nah, the only committer who has sold his soul lately is Bill Fumerola, for > that damned vigor port. *lol* That's true :) I like your nightmare-story :) Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 6:13:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radagast.wizard.net (radagast.wizard.net [206.161.15.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7A137B839; Tue, 9 May 2000 06:13:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tyson@stanfordalumni.org) Received: from stanfordalumni.org (tc2-s24.wizard.net [206.161.15.100]) by radagast.wizard.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14249; Tue, 9 May 2000 09:13:43 -0400 Message-Id: <200005091313.JAA14249@radagast.wizard.net> To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Christian Weisgerber Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 08 May 2000 18:49:25 PDT." Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 09:13:36 -0400 From: "Donald R. Tyson" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Meddling here, but Professor Knuth is pretty clear on this in his book (page 1, The TeXbook): ``Insiders pronounce the X of TeX as a Greek chi, not as an `x', so that TeX rhymes with the word **blecchh**. (emphasis added). ... When you say it correctly to your computer, the terminal may become slightly moist.'' Not sure whether this meets the definition of ``effectively pronounce'' or not, but it's what the author of TeX says. Don Tyson > On 9 May 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > How do English speakers effectively pronounce "TeX"? > > "Tek", although some of my co-students pronounce it "Tex". > > Kris > > ---- > In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. > -- Charles Forsythe > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 8: 1:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EF037B77E; Tue, 9 May 2000 08:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from Hamilton-ppp44812.sympatico.ca (Hamilton-ppp44855.sympatico.ca [206.172.76.48]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19618; Tue, 9 May 2000 11:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by Hamilton-ppp44812.sympatico.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA63198; Tue, 9 May 2000 10:43:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:43:05 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Bruce Evans Cc: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , "David O'Brien" , Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Small MAKEDEV bug Message-ID: <20000509104305.B62847@Hamilton-ppp44812.sympatico.ca> References: <20000508191556.A47871@Hamilton-ppp44812.sympatico.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Bruce Evans on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 07:43:01PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [-current -> -chat] On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 07:43:01PM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > > > > > MAKEDEV $(jot -w da 2 0) # make 2 acd devices beginning at acd0 [...] > > The jot utility doesn't appear to be in /bin. > > You can just type all the device names or use a shell loop when /usr/bin > is not mounted. b$ a=0; ./MAKEDEV $(while [ $a -ne 2 ] ; do echo da$a ; a=$(($a + 1)) ; done) Advantages: - no strange jot(1) syntax to remember - uses only standard tools and the UNIX way - easily modified and customized - prevents our users from getting rusty in the sh(1) abilities That's how *I* would do it, anyways. ;-) ;-) -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 12:31: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2A137B580; Tue, 9 May 2000 12:28:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 12pFOm-000O0b-00; Tue, 09 May 2000 20:10:28 +0100 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.12 #7) id 12pFOl-000MK7-00; Tue, 09 May 2000 20:10:27 +0100 Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:10:27 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? Message-ID: <20000509201027.C386@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <8f7l66$2a2p$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > On 9 May 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > >> How do English speakers effectively pronounce "TeX"? > > "Tek", although some of my co-students pronounce it "Tex". Is it still supposed to be pronounced like Knuth says when used as part of e.g. LaTeX? Either way, I pronounce it "Tex" (like the first syllable of Texas) but then I pronounce "Vi" as if it rhymed with "bye" too. I'm sure there are some words I pronounce correctly somewhere. :-) -- Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 13:27:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F3637B557 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 13:26:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12pGaU-000Bwn-00; Tue, 9 May 2000 21:26:38 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA73487 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 May 2000 21:26:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:26:37 +0100 From: J McKitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: assembly vs C Message-ID: <20000509212637.A73322@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've heard some debates recently, mostly by 'old-school' hackers from the C64 days who are calling for a return to machine language. They claim that CPU speed, memory size, and HD space will begin to plateau soon, and that ML would bring a much needed return to efficiency and clean coding. The other side of the coin argues differently. I can think of 2 arguments against: first, OOP and C++ were developed almost expressly to make it easier to deal with the size of today's apps. Modularity only goes so far, they claim. Objects are needed to further simplify development and maintenance. The other point is illustrated by Unix itself. ML was abandoned for C, since compilers are advanced enough in time and space optimization to make hand-coding unnecessary, even obsolete for everything but device drivers. What does everyone think about this? Will there ever be a need for ML again, besides optimized device drivers? Or will advanced compilers and OOP replace low level programming for most tasks? Even though C is not OOP, it is low-level enough that a good compiler and a tight C program make the benefits of ML almost irrelevant, correct? jm -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org I am a bomb technician. If you see me running, try to keep up. ------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 13:47:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4042D37B86B for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 13:47:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA51971; Tue, 9 May 2000 15:46:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:46:19 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: J McKitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: assembly vs C In-Reply-To: <20000509212637.A73322@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 May 2000, J McKitrick wrote: > I've heard some debates recently, mostly by 'old-school' hackers from the > C64 days who are calling for a return to machine language. They claim that > CPU speed, memory size, and HD space will begin to plateau soon, and that ML > would bring a much needed return to efficiency and clean coding. Anybody who thinks that assembly is going to make a big comeback hasn't looked at writing code for modern processors. While there are people who can produce code that is as efficent as the stuff cranked out by a good compiler, there aren't that many. There aren't nearly as many as there were during the era of the 6502 and the Z-80. The compilers have gotten much better and the chips much harder to write code for. I am sure that assembly will stick around for a while, for things like low-level OS glue, and the occaisonal tightly optimized loop. I can't imagine anyone writing a large application in assembly for the Alpha, MIPS, PA-RISC, or IA-64. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 14: 3:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758C337C09E for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 14:03:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA27595; Tue, 9 May 2000 23:01:59 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:01:59 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: J McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: assembly vs C In-Reply-To: <20000509212637.A73322@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 May 2000, J McKitrick wrote: > I've heard some debates recently, mostly by 'old-school' hackers from the > C64 days who are calling for a return to machine language. They claim that > CPU speed, memory size, and HD space will begin to plateau soon, and that ML > would bring a much needed return to efficiency and clean coding. > If 30 years min is soon, then yes. Everybody expects the Moore\s law to hold out at least that long. And even then (and definately, up to then), most benefits would imho come from algorithmic improvements. Inc. ones that are way more cache friendly. > The other side of the coin argues differently. I can think of 2 arguments > against: first, OOP and C++ were developed almost expressly to make it > easier to deal with the size of today's apps. Modularity only goes so far, > they claim. Objects are needed to further simplify development and > maintenance. The other point is illustrated by Unix itself. ML was > abandoned for C, since compilers are advanced enough in time and space > optimization to make hand-coding unnecessary, even obsolete for everything > but device drivers. > Take a look at freebsd device drivers and compare the amount of asm vs. C 8-) > What does everyone think about this? Will there ever be a need for ML > again, besides optimized device drivers? Or will advanced compilers and OOP > replace low level programming for most tasks? Even though C is not OOP, it > is low-level enough that a good compiler and a tight C program make the > benefits of ML almost irrelevant, correct? > Considering that a lot of the new language-X compilers compile to C chieveing comaprable speeds to average C programmers in most cases, it also applies to any language x. ML will be less and less needed/used as time goes. You also haven't considered things like probable wide spread of SMT processors, java and things like Transmeta's Crusoe. > jm > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org > I am a bomb technician. If you see me running, try to keep up. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 14:16:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from caladan.tdx.co.uk (caladan.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2AA37BFA4 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 14:16:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kpielorz@tdx.co.uk) Received: from tdx.co.uk (lorca-tx.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.242]) by caladan.tdx.co.uk (8.10.1/8.10.1/Kp) with ESMTP id e49LEXE13726; Tue, 9 May 2000 22:14:33 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <39187FB3.7C1D34@tdx.co.uk> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 22:14:27 +0100 From: Karl Pielorz Organization: TDX - The Digital eXchange X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en-gb] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: J McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: assembly vs C References: <20000509212637.A73322@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org J McKitrick wrote: > > I've heard some debates recently, mostly by 'old-school' hackers from the > C64 days who are calling for a return to machine language. They claim that > CPU speed, memory size, and HD space will begin to plateau soon, and that ML > would bring a much needed return to efficiency and clean coding. This has absolutely nothing to do with FreeBSD! - But, it's on -chat, so what the hell... :) [This is also a long post, perhaps because of the lack of FreeBSDism, it should be continued in off-list mail?] I used to be a C64 'junkie'... I've written stuff in 6502, heck - I grew up with it and the C64, and remember the days when 68k (68000) looked like 'BASIC' compared to 6502... I disagree with the above statement, on the basis that people like Transmeta have begun proving this wrong... I also disagree that things have 'plateau'd yet... Moore's law is still holding true, hard drives are still getting bigger - and memory cheaper/faster. I stick with FreeBSD as these improvements net us real gains, instead of being spent on the user interface, or more complex 'over the top' specifications / implementations of the O/S. On a 'simple machine' in the old days, programmer vs. compiler - will sometimes result in the programmer winning... It's how you got the C64 to do the 'amazing' things you could get it to do, because you needed the speed of machine language (as the CPU was slow), and a 6502 has all but a handful of instructions, I used to know people who could program in hex directly! [not too hard on a 6502!] - As well as know at what state the CPU was every step of the way. The only way the programmer would win would be because of inadequacies in the compiler, which considering it was 6502, and a while ago - was more of a probability than it is today. These days, your up against multiple platforms, CPU's with hundreds of instructions, and a hugely complex 'machine', with caches, branch predictors, pipelines, and all sorts of wizardry. Sure a programmer can by hand, probably figure it all out - but these days you put your faith in the compiler, and it _can_ do as good, if not better... Compilers these days are more akin to chess players. Unless your Kasparov, they will (on the whole) make better decisions than you can. Sure they still need 'hints' and the like, but they have the best 'plan view' of the state of the program/process/possibly machine, and can normally decide what's best based on what's going on, what's going on after the current operation, and what went previously... (There not infallible - yet, by any means). > The other side of the coin argues differently. I can think of 2 arguments > against: first, OOP and C++ were developed almost expressly to make it > easier to deal with the size of today's apps. Modularity only goes so far, > they claim. Objects are needed to further simplify development and > maintenance. What is needed is a clearly defined, unambiguous interface between 'components', which OOP mostly satisfies - whilst still keeping a semblance of 'real world' about it. Whether CPP satisfies this, is probably open to debate... CPP is an improvement - is it the 'ultimate' solution? - I don't think so, and don't think we're in a position to tender the 'ultimate' language yet by a long shot... Some may be better than CPP some may be worse... > The other point is illustrated by Unix itself. ML was > abandoned for C, since compilers are advanced enough in time and space > optimization to make hand-coding unnecessary, even obsolete for everything > but device drivers. And arguably even in device drivers - especially as the push continues to "decouple" the bus/machine infrastructure from the driver itself... > What does everyone think about this? Will there ever be a need for ML > again, besides optimized device drivers? Or will advanced compilers and OOP > replace low level programming for most tasks? Even though C is not OOP, it > is low-level enough that a good compiler and a tight C program make the > benefits of ML almost irrelevant, correct? In everything I've done recently, where I think I've "outsmarted" the modern day compiler, the answer has been 'I was wrong' or 'I couldn't have done it better in ML'. However, the compiler can still fall short in a number of ways, which either require machine language to fix - as it's not open to ambiguity (as a result of sacrificing portability perhaps?) - and the compilers are still open to bugs / 'wrong assumptions' for the moment in 'process' time they're looking at. Relating to FreeBSD - if it was written in machine language by a human / programmer, would it be 'better' than the current 'C' translation into machine language? - possibly. Would parts of it be beyond human comprehension if you 'step back' and look at it? - Probably not, but it would significantly shift the way things are done, and 'passed around' the internals of the operating system, or at least it would if we still wanted to keep things comprehensible... Just my $0.25 :) -Karl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 14:20: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090F537BF85 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 14:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA62481; Tue, 9 May 2000 16:18:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:18:37 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Narvi Cc: J McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: assembly vs C In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 May 2000, Narvi wrote: > > On Tue, 9 May 2000, David Scheidt wrote: > > occaisonal tightly optimized loop. I can't imagine anyone writing a large > > application in assembly for the Alpha, MIPS, PA-RISC, or IA-64. > > > > You are on a really slippery road, betting against the stupidity of > humans... > I can imagine someone trying. I just can't imagine anyone finishing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 14:24:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C88937C329 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 14:24:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA27611; Tue, 9 May 2000 23:03:37 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:03:37 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: David Scheidt Cc: J McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: assembly vs C In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 May 2000, David Scheidt wrote: > On Tue, 9 May 2000, J McKitrick wrote: > > > I've heard some debates recently, mostly by 'old-school' hackers from the > > C64 days who are calling for a return to machine language. They claim that > > CPU speed, memory size, and HD space will begin to plateau soon, and that ML > > would bring a much needed return to efficiency and clean coding. > > Anybody who thinks that assembly is going to make a big comeback hasn't > looked at writing code for modern processors. While there are people who > can produce code that is as efficent as the stuff cranked out by a good > compiler, there aren't that many. There aren't nearly as many as there were > during the era of the 6502 and the Z-80. The compilers have gotten much > better and the chips much harder to write code for. I am sure that assembly > will stick around for a while, for things like low-level OS glue, and the > occaisonal tightly optimized loop. I can't imagine anyone writing a large > application in assembly for the Alpha, MIPS, PA-RISC, or IA-64. > You are on a really slippery road, betting against the stupidity of humans... > David > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 15:39:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07DB37C05A; Tue, 9 May 2000 15:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA47648; Tue, 9 May 2000 15:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:39:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Magazine ads In-Reply-To: <20000509111103.A19135@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 May 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I just remembered one, I really shouldn't admit this, but I usually > pick up Wired. :) I think getting some exposure where people > haven't already heard of FreeBSD might also be a good idea. I'm afraid I'm going to have to upgrade your status to Lamecon 2 for that offense, Alfred :-) Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 17:19:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r8.bfm.org [216.127.220.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F0137B66A for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 17:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA00246; Tue, 9 May 2000 19:18:00 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:17:29 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: J McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: assembly vs C Message-ID: <20000509191729.A228@whizkidtech.net> References: <20000509212637.A73322@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000509212637.A73322@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 09:26:37PM +0100 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 09:26:37PM +0100, J McKitrick wrote: >I've heard some debates recently, mostly by 'old-school' hackers from the >C64 days who are calling for a return to machine language. So which one was it? Old-school hackers, or C-64 days hackers? C-64 days weren't that long ago. Believe it or not, some of us pre-date even Unix, let alone C-64. :) And I think you really mean assembly language, not machine language. I can't imagine anyone coding in *machine* language when we have excellent assemblers around. I certainly *can* imagine coding in assembly language: I do it all the time. And I had to laugh at some comments stating here that a human cannot "beat" a modern compiler. That will be the day when humans cannot out-think computers! That said, what do you mean by "return"? Assembly language programming never disappeared. It is not like we either program in assembly language, or we program in C and other languages. Languages are tools. Different tasks require different tools. > They claim that >CPU speed, memory size, and HD space will begin to plateau soon, and that ML >would bring a much needed return to efficiency and clean coding. Efficiency and clean coding are certainly necessary regardless of the underlying hardware, or the language chosen for software. >The other side of the coin argues differently. I can think of 2 arguments >against: first, OOP and C++ were developed almost expressly to make it >easier to deal with the size of today's apps. Modularity only goes so far, >they claim. Objects are needed to further simplify development and >maintenance. The other point is illustrated by Unix itself. ML was >abandoned for C, since compilers are advanced enough in time and space >optimization to make hand-coding unnecessary, even obsolete for everything >but device drivers. Who says you need C++ for OOP? You can certainly use OOP in assembly language. Assembly language was not *abandoned*, it was complemented. The C compiler still produces an assembly language result which is then assembled. The whole argument does not make sense to this "old-timer." Choose whatever tool is best suited for the task at hand. Generally, for a large Unix application C is your best choice, especially on "true" Unix, such as FreeBSD, because its system calls are optimized for C programming style. I have recently (days ago) compared the way FreeBSD handles system calls with the way Linux does. Under FreeBSD you push parameters on the stack. Under Linux you place them into registers. I then spent some time thinking on how I would do it if I were to write an OS kernel. I finally decided that the FreeBSD way would be my choice as it would be more efficient from a larger perspective. There are many factors one needs to consider when choosing the right tools. Am I looking for an answer to a question? Once I have the answer, will I ever need to run this code again? If not, why would I want to spend too much time writing it in assembly language? Or, for that matter, in C. Perhaps I can write a shell script in a couple of minutes and get my answer. Am I looking for many answers to many questions? Will I be looking for more answers to similar questions in the future? Perhaps C is my best tool. Am I constantly looking for answers to specific types of questions, writing code that will always run on my system, taking up memory and processor cycles? Perhaps assembly language is my best choice. Programming is the art of solving problems. Different problems call for different solutions. Should you know assembly language? Of course you should! Should you know C? Of course you should! Should you know how to program the shell? Of course you should! The more tools a programmer has at his disposal, the more choices he has in using them. But the most important ability a programmer needs is not the ability to use this or that language. The most important ability a programmer needs is the ability to solve problems. Once you have found the right solution, coding it is a snap. And only at the coding stage should you decide which tool is your best choice. Cheers, Adam -- Can you imagine the silence if everyone said only what he knows! -- Karel Èapek To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 17:48: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thuvia.demon.co.uk (thuvia.demon.co.uk [193.237.34.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6BB37B5D3 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 17:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@thuvia.demon.co.uk) Received: (from mark@localhost) by thuvia.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11058; Wed, 10 May 2000 01:47:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:47:51 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Valentine Message-Id: <200005100047.BAA11058@thuvia.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Christian Weisgerber's message of May 9, 2:12am X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 beta(5) 10/07/98) To: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) > Date: Tue 9 May, 2000 > Subject: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? > How do English speakers effectively pronounce "TeX"? Dunno, but as a Scottish speaker I pronounce it "Tech"... :-) Cheers, Mark. P.S. Think "LoX Ness Monster" and you're about there! -- Mark Valentine at Home http://mark.valentine.org "I'll be mellow when I'm DEAD." http://www.thuvia.org Mark Valentine uses and endorses FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 18:20:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00DEF37BF75 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 18:20:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04216; Tue, 9 May 2000 19:18:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000509175129.043fcb60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 18:14:48 -0600 To: J McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: assembly vs C In-Reply-To: <20000509212637.A73322@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:26 PM 5/9/2000, J McKitrick wrote: >I've heard some debates recently, mostly by 'old-school' hackers from the >C64 days who are calling for a return to machine language. They claim that >CPU speed, memory size, and HD space will begin to plateau soon, and that ML >would bring a much needed return to efficiency and clean coding. They're right. Whenever you see perfectly adequate computers going for $400 or less (this has only happened a couple of times since the advent of the microcomputer), it means that there's a discontinuity somewhere. And these days the discontinuity has to do with bandwidth. Current applications, such as Internet browsers, do not even use up all of the power of the current hardware because the bottlenecks lie elsewhere -- to wit, in the network. Assembly language can help to bridge this gap by making the best possible use of the limited bandwidth we have available. In this case, the assembly language will be embedded in networking devices and/or in network software that does more with less. In embedded apps, assembler is ALWAYS a win. I've been demonstrating this to clients since the days of the Z-8 and 6502, and have continued to with the Pentium III and Athlon. I still do Z-80 work now and then. The wizardry one can do on the bare metal with a 1 GHz 32-bit CPU is simply mind boggling. (I can hardly wait for the new 64-bitters.) And when you're doing intense pattern matching in ANY environment -- including BSD -- the results are amazing. I've given people 500x (that's 500x, not 500%) speedups over their old, creaky Perl scripts. (The client in one case thought that his Web app was unscalable; it was still slow after he distributed it among a whole rack of servers. Now, he has all of these extra CPUs that are just loafing along....) --Brett "You're not just e-mailing her, you're e-mailing anyone she's ever e-mailed." -- Dayton Daily News Cartoonist Mike Peters To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 19: 4:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from corserv.corserv.com (corserv.corserv.com [206.180.159.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D642F37B604 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 19:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from klyons@corserv.corserv.com) Received: (from klyons@localhost) by corserv.corserv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13005; Tue, 9 May 2000 21:09:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from klyons) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:09:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin Lyons Message-Id: <200005100209.VAA13005@corserv.corserv.com> To: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: assembly vs C Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > At 02:26 PM 5/9/2000, J McKitrick wrote: > > And when you're doing intense pattern matching in ANY environment -- including > BSD -- the results are amazing. I've given people 500x (that's 500x, not 500%) > speedups over their old, creaky Perl scripts. (The client in one case thought > that his Web app was unscalable; it was still slow after he distributed > it among a whole rack of servers. Now, he has all of these extra CPUs that > are just loafing along....) > Well almost anything is faster than PERL. Why PERL continues to be used on production webservers when you have C tools like CGIC is beyond understanding. Its almost as bad as using VB under asp! I suspect the pattern matching routine could have approached 500x if written in tight C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 19:24:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717A337B5C3 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 19:24:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04724; Tue, 9 May 2000 20:24:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000509202357.0487bc20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 20:24:20 -0600 To: Kevin Lyons , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: assembly vs C In-Reply-To: <200005100209.VAA13005@corserv.corserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:09 PM 5/9/2000, Kevin Lyons wrote: >Well almost anything is faster than PERL. Why PERL continues to be used on >production webservers when you have C tools like CGIC is beyond understanding. >Its almost as bad as using VB under asp! I suspect the pattern matching >routine could have approached 500x if written in tight C. I doubt it. We used MMX instructions. --Brett "You're not just e-mailing her, you're e-mailing anyone she's ever e-mailed." -- Dayton Daily News Cartoonist Mike Peters To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 21:19:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D1937B5C3 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 21:19:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05966 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 May 2000 21:18:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:18:47 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: IA64 BIOS/EFI uses FreeBSD libc Message-ID: <20000509211847.A5939@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ftp://download.intel.com/technology/efi/idf_toolkit_slides.pdf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 22:53: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [192.35.17.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C618137B7CC for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 22:53:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail2.siemens.de (mail2.siemens.de [139.25.208.11]) by david.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4A5r5407093 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 07:53:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail2.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4A5r5h18485 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 07:53:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e4A5r5e07883; Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:53:05 +0200 From: Andre Albsmeier To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de Subject: Any success on importing MS-Word docs in Applixware? Message-ID: <20000510075305.A25424@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did anybody have success importing MS-Word documents into Applixware on 3.4-STABLE? The reason I am asking is: In february this year I finally received my Applixware CD. After installing (can anything done wrong here?), I tried to import a MS-Word document. I received an error: /server/FreeBSD/ApplixWare/axdata/filters/olefilter/olefilter, java libraries not found and sent a PR which can be found under http://www.smartbeak.com/SmartBeak.ent?ENT_COMMAND=INFOBASE_VIEW&ID=5003153 After exchanging several emails with Applix support, I was told that my version, 4.42 (1021.522) really has a problem and there will be fixed CDs sent out. This CD appeared on my desk the day before yesterday. I installed it from scratch and tried to import a MS-Word document: /opt/applix/axdata/filters/olefilter/olefilter, java libraries not found So, nothing changed apart from that I now have version 4.42 (1021.544.22). Does anybody have any hints how to solve this problem? Thanks, -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 22:55:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCEC37B86D for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 22:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA03994; Wed, 10 May 2000 05:55:32 GMT (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000510075305.A25424@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:25:32 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Andre Albsmeier Subject: RE: Any success on importing MS-Word docs in Applixware? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-00 Andre Albsmeier wrote: > Did anybody have success importing MS-Word documents into > Applixware on 3.4-STABLE? The reason I am asking is: > > In february this year I finally received my Applixware CD. > After installing (can anything done wrong here?), I tried > to import a MS-Word document. I received an error: > > /server/FreeBSD/ApplixWare/axdata/filters/olefilter/olefilter, java > libraries not found I've tried a few MS Word 95 docs... Works some of the time, it hung on one of them after doing the conversion :( --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 22:57:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [192.35.17.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68B137B875 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 22:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail2.siemens.de (mail2.siemens.de [139.25.208.11]) by david.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4A5vU408375; Wed, 10 May 2000 07:57:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail2.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4A5vTh19885; Wed, 10 May 2000 07:57:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e4A5vTe07937; Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:57:29 +0200 From: Andre Albsmeier To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Andre Albsmeier , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any success on importing MS-Word docs in Applixware? Message-ID: <20000510075729.A25553@curry.mchp.siemens.de> References: <20000510075305.A25424@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 03:25:32PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10-May-2000 at 15:25:32 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 10-May-00 Andre Albsmeier wrote: > > Did anybody have success importing MS-Word documents into > > Applixware on 3.4-STABLE? The reason I am asking is: > > > > In february this year I finally received my Applixware CD. > > After installing (can anything done wrong here?), I tried > > to import a MS-Word document. I received an error: > > > > /server/FreeBSD/ApplixWare/axdata/filters/olefilter/olefilter, java > > libraries not found > > I've tried a few MS Word 95 docs... > > Works some of the time, it hung on one of them after doing the conversion :( But you never received the above error? What version of Applixware have you got? -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 9 22:59:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0163637B794 for ; Tue, 9 May 2000 22:59:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA04038; Wed, 10 May 2000 05:59:35 GMT (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000510075729.A25553@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:29:35 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Andre Albsmeier Subject: Re: Any success on importing MS-Word docs in Applixware? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-00 Andre Albsmeier wrote: > > Works some of the time, it hung on one of them after doing the conversion > > :( > But you never received the above error? What version of Applixware > have you got? No, I have never got that error. I have version 4.42 (1021.544.22) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 2:46:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056D637B51A for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 02:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C116A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.106]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14004; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:45:06 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72FBAC2C; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:51:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA06452; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:46:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:46:25 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Arun Sharma Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IA64 BIOS/EFI uses FreeBSD libc Message-ID: <20000510114625.A5886@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000509211847.A5939@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000509211847.A5939@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 09:18:47PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not only the libc, but - much more interesting - also the TCP/IP stack. Any Pro-GNU list we can post this to? *eg* Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 3:49:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B1B37B59C for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 03:49:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA91945; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:46:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:46:54 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Alexander Langer Cc: Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IA64 BIOS/EFI uses FreeBSD libc Message-ID: <20000510114654.A82834@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20000509211847.A5939@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000510114625.A5886@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000510114625.A5886@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 11:46:25AM +0200 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 11:46:25AM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Not only the libc, but - much more interesting - also the TCP/IP stack. > > Any Pro-GNU list we can post this to? My supernatural powers tell me that this might appear on Slashdot at about 16:32 GMT. . . N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 4: 5: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from plab.ku.dk (plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DEA137B652 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 04:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tobez@plab.ku.dk) Received: (from tobez@localhost) by plab.ku.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA20018; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:05:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tobez) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:05:56 +0200 From: Anton Berezin To: Kevin Lyons Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: assembly vs C Message-ID: <20000510130556.C18760@plab.ku.dk> References: <200005100209.VAA13005@corserv.corserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005100209.VAA13005@corserv.corserv.com>; from klyons@corserv.corserv.com on Tue, May 09, 2000 at 09:09:52PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 09, 2000 at 09:09:52PM -0500, Kevin Lyons wrote: > Well almost anything is faster than PERL. Why PERL continues to be > used on production webservers when you have C tools like CGIC is > beyond understanding. Its almost as bad as using VB under asp! See http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/1999-04/msg01479.html for an interesting counter-example. > I suspect the pattern matching routine could have approached 500x if > written in tight C. Pattern matching routines in Perl *are* written in tight C. Try to compare Perl speed with the speed of regex(3) for even simple regexes, and you'll be surprised. Pcre port is there for a reason, you know... :-) Cheers, -- Anton Berezin The Protein Laboratory, University of Copenhagen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 8:32:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3C437B838 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 08:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02870; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:32:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000510093056.04315d90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:32:26 -0600 To: Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IA64 BIOS/EFI uses FreeBSD libc In-Reply-To: <20000509211847.A5939@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:18 PM 5/9/2000, Arun Sharma wrote: >ftp://download.intel.com/technology/efi/idf_toolkit_slides.pdf Yes, it makes good sense that they're using BSD-licensed code. If they didn't, manufacturers would complain (justifiably!) that they couldn't add unique value. And I don't think that Intel wants its code to be controlled by the likes of Richard Stallman. --Brett "I yam Popeye of Borg. Prepares to be askimilgrated." -- Source unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 10: 8:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 307FE37B534 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA61544 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:08:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:08:31 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Headcount for May San Francisco BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <20000510100830.B60916@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 4pm it would be very helpful. See our web page ( http://www.bafug.org ) for more info. Whistle (IBM) has generously offered to pick up the tab for pizza Thursday night and will be providing soft drinks. Please return the kindness by letting us, Josef or Nicole, know if you are planing to attend. We need to give them a pretty good count so we can order pizza. Also it has come to our attention that Rick Moen, one of the speakers, is having a birthday Thursday night. Please bring your best singing voice as we wish him a happy birthday! Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 10:12:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost.chi.ameritech.net (mpdr0.chicago.il.ameritech.net [206.141.239.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAAC37BAE1 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adavis@ubasics.com) Received: from ubasics.com ([209.18.29.37]) by mailhost.chi.ameritech.net (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <20000510171240.KZFV4473.mailhost.chi.ameritech.net@ubasics.com> for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:12:40 -0500 Message-ID: <39199883.35F74895@ubasics.com> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:12:35 -0400 From: "M. Adam Davis" Organization: Micro Basics X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: assembly vs C References: <20000509212637.A73322@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org J McKitrick wrote: > Will there ever be a need for ML again, besides > optimized device drivers? Embedded devices are coming more to the forefront of technology, while mainstream computers are slowing. Programming in assembly language is useful for small real-time tasks (read, microcontrollers, network routers, etc) But even the microcontrollers I program (.5k to 8k of program space) I program mostly in C (NOT C++, thankyouverymuch). But there is always room for assembly routines. You really cannot say "Which is better". That is like saying, "which is better, a hand saw, or a power saw?" Sure, you can very likely perform the same operation with either, but you aren't going to carve a granfather clock face with a power saw, nor are you going to cut framing wood with a hand saw. They are designed for different uses, and anyone who only uses one or the other will limit their effectiveness. > Or will advanced compilers and OOP replace low level > programming for most tasks? Again, it depends on who you are serving. Consumer devices can(and should) be whipped out in the least amount of time using a high-level language. Industrial or time critical devices should use a mix where needed, but can generally be mostly high-level. > Even though C is not OOP, it is low-level enough that > a good compiler and a tight C program make the benefits > of ML almost irrelevant, correct? Almost, but not quite. If every application in the world had the same exact requirements, then a single c compiler could optimize every program perfectly. This, obviously, is not the case. Tomorrow, someone will need a routine on a given processor which is a completely new way of deaing with an old problem. The algorithm used, however, is also new, and the C compiler will do a great job of optimizing it - but a hand tuned optimization would be significantly better. And of course this changes according to the processor's capabilities. Then you have supercomputers preforming floating point operations (for weather, satellite, atomic simulations). Given that a particular simulation requires a particular loop to be executed several billion times, it pays to code it in assembly (especially when you find out what the supercomputer costs to run per second) So, in short, C will not replace assembly (machine code). Just remember the predictions of the paperless office of tomorrow... We won't have a machine language-less office of tommorow, though it will become less used in favor of speed. -Adam "The paperless office will come soon after the paperless toilet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 10:20:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794AB37B5B7 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA44010; Wed, 10 May 2000 19:20:26 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:20:26 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "M. Adam Davis" Cc: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: assembly vs C In-Reply-To: <39199883.35F74895@ubasics.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 May 2000, M. Adam Davis wrote: [snip] > Then you have supercomputers preforming floating point operations (for weather, > satellite, atomic simulations). Given that a particular simulation requires a > particular loop to be executed several billion times, it pays to code it in > assembly (especially when you find out what the supercomputer costs to run per > second) > Heh. That's why practically all of that software is written in Fortran, right? > So, in short, C will not replace assembly (machine code). Just remember the > predictions of the paperless office of tomorrow... We won't have a machine > language-less office of tommorow, though it will become less used in favor of > speed. > > -Adam > > "The paperless office will come soon after the paperless toilet" > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 11:12:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547D837B631 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:12:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06884; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:11:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200005101811.OAA06884@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:11:50 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Bruce Evans Subject: Re: .s -> .S filename change in /sys Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, "David O'Brien" , Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-00 Bruce Evans wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Peter Wemm wrote: > >> If Bruce is happy with it, then I am too. > > I'm happy. And that's all that matters. :P > Bruce -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 11:19:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.sullivan-reportlibrary.com (chrtn1UBR2-3-hfc-0252-d8d8b012.rdc1.tn.comcastatwork.com [216.216.176.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7EA437B883 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marketing@infotechsys.net) Received: from infotechsys.net (2K-SERVER [192.168.0.100]) by mail.sullivan-reportlibrary.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id KTQY5NAA; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:15:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: marketing@infotechsys.net Reply-To: marketing@infotechsys.net To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ITS Brochure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: <20000510181912.E7EA437B883@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ITS Internet Site

P.O. Box 70671

Charleston, SC 29415-0671

843.566.1397


To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 11:57:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2014537B8F2 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1172 invoked by uid 211); 10 May 2000 18:57:06 -0000 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:27:06 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: How Microsoft ensures virus-free software Message-ID: <20000511002705.A1165@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Saw this link in an article on the ILOVEYOU virus. This is from Microsoft's own webpage on how they ensure virus-free software on their shipping CD's. http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q80/5/20.ASP -snip- Release Insertion Into Manufacturing Network The master is read into a UNIX-based disk duplication system. The system creates an exact disk image of the master, duplicating the format and data. A duplicated masters is created from the original read in image. This silver master is used by the Product Group in their review, before they sign-off. The silver master is not to be used in the Release to Manufacturing (RTM) process. The golden master, delivered by the product group to the release group, is the original image, and is released to manufacturing when the final approvals are received from the product groups. -snip- Duplication Process Disks are duplicated on a variety of industrial strength, quality focused systems. Most of these systems are UNIX-based. The UNIX-based duplication systems used in manufacturing are impervious to MS-DOS-based, Windows- based, and Macintosh-based viruses. The few MS-DOS-based and Windows-based standalone duplication systems do not allow MS-DOS-based operating systems to access the duplication system. Virus protection systems used by these MS-DOS-based and Windows-based duplication systems strictly govern the duplication process, even when they are not running. There's also an article on CNN on how linux users were unaffected by ILOVEYOU. So why not just use Unix in the first place? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 12:24:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4C437B9F2 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e4AJsXm03876; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:54:33 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How Microsoft ensures virus-free software Message-ID: <20000510125432.I28180@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000511002705.A1165@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000511002705.A1165@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, May 11, 2000 at 12:27:06AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Rahul Siddharthan [000510 12:32] wrote: > Saw this link in an article on the ILOVEYOU virus. > This is from Microsoft's own webpage on how they ensure > virus-free software on their shipping CD's. > > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q80/5/20.ASP > > -snip- > Release Insertion Into Manufacturing Network > > The master is read into a UNIX-based disk duplication system. The > system creates an exact disk image of the master, duplicating the > format and data. A duplicated masters is created from the original > read in image. This silver master is used by the Product Group in > their review, before they sign-off. The silver master is not to be > used in the Release to Manufacturing (RTM) process. The golden master, > delivered by the product group to the release group, is the original > image, and is released to manufacturing when the final approvals are > received from the product groups. > > -snip- > > Duplication Process > > Disks are duplicated on a variety of industrial strength, quality > focused systems. Most of these systems are UNIX-based. The UNIX-based > duplication systems used in manufacturing are impervious to > MS-DOS-based, Windows- based, and Macintosh-based viruses. > The few MS-DOS-based and Windows-based standalone duplication systems > do not allow MS-DOS-based operating systems to access the duplication > system. Virus protection systems used by these MS-DOS-based and > Windows-based duplication systems strictly govern the duplication > process, even when they are not running. > > There's also an article on CNN on how linux users were unaffected > by ILOVEYOU. > So why not just use Unix in the first place? I'm hyper-caffinated right now, but how the hell does this protect users if the developers' boxes are infected? Basically Joe Random MS coder builds the final release EXE/DLLs on his infected computer and how exactly does this intracate, but completely useless handoff proceedure purge that virus? *boggles* -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 12:40:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 491D737B95E for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:40:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1305 invoked from network); 10 May 2000 19:40:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 10 May 2000 19:40:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 14957 invoked by uid 211); 10 May 2000 19:40:20 -0000 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:10:20 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How Microsoft ensures virus-free software Message-ID: <20000511011020.B14634@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000511002705.A1165@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000510125432.I28180@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000510125432.I28180@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 12:54:33PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein said on May 10, 2000 at 12:54:33: > * Rahul Siddharthan [000510 12:32] wrote: > > Saw this link in an article on the ILOVEYOU virus. > > This is from Microsoft's own webpage on how they ensure > > virus-free software on their shipping CD's. > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q80/5/20.ASP > > > > -snip- > > > > Duplication Process > > > > Disks are duplicated on a variety of industrial strength, quality > > focused systems. Most of these systems are UNIX-based. The UNIX-based > I'm hyper-caffinated right now, but how the hell does this protect > users if the developers' boxes are infected? > > Basically Joe Random MS coder builds the final release EXE/DLLs > on his infected computer and how exactly does this intracate, > but completely useless handoff proceedure purge that virus? > > *boggles* Maybe the developers use unix too? At least for email, file sharing, communicating with the outside world, stuff like that? R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 14:54:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.x-treme.gr (mail2.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F5037BA6A for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:54:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat15.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.207]) by mail2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.2) with ESMTP id AAA19384; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:53:53 +0300 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e4ALT5N57930; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:29:05 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:29:05 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How Microsoft ensures virus-free software Message-ID: <20000511002905.A57796@hades.hell.gr> References: <20000511002705.A1165@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000510125432.I28180@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000510125432.I28180@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 12:54:33PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 12:54:33PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > I'm hyper-caffinated right now, but how the hell does this protect > users if the developers' boxes are infected? > > Basically Joe Random MS coder builds the final release EXE/DLLs > on his infected computer and how exactly does this intracate, > but completely useless handoff proceedure purge that virus? > > *boggles* When the so called 'silver' master is tested, in the review process. They *do* test their releases, don't they? Even if they do test them though, how do they make sure that a virus triggered on a far future date is found and eliminated is beyond my imagination. But all this is just crap. Why try to find out about virii, after they have been introduced into the system and not make a system that no virus can attack? (Yeah, I know we all folk know about pro-active security. I just didn't want to make it look like I'm opposed to Alfred's opinion.) *back in my dark corner* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 15:13:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (hydrant.intranova.net [209.201.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D21137B9C6 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hydrant.intranova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FD7E1222 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:14:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Omachonu Ogali To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ITS Brochure In-Reply-To: <20000510181912.E7EA437B883@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 May 2000 marketing@infotechsys.net wrote: > Download our electronic brochure > > If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please click here to > send us an e-mail with remove in the subject and we will automatically > block you from future mailings. My oh my, look what just landed in my Postfix header restrictions on its own...*gasp* could it be: /^Received:\s*by\s*.*\(bulk_mailer\s*v\..+\);\s*.*$/ REJECT My oh my, it is! After this message I^H *cough* my machine, decided to drop all e-mails that are sent by this popular piece of spamware. This massive spam to every possible FreeBSD e-mail address made the final decision. Now I^H *cough* my machine, gets to collect other spam and see what else is being used out there, yay! -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 15:24:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (hydrant.intranova.net [209.201.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49C537B9C6 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:24:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hydrant.intranova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D58EE1222 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:25:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Omachonu Ogali To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ITS Brochure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ACK! Put the flamethrowers down! I misread the headers and thought the original spam was sent out with that software, so my Postfix line ended up rejected all FreeBSD mail...Please don't hurt me (anytime soon). On Wed, 10 May 2000, Omachonu Ogali wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2000 marketing@infotechsys.net wrote: > > > Download our electronic brochure > > > > If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please click here to > > send us an e-mail with remove in the subject and we will automatically > > block you from future mailings. > > My oh my, look what just landed in my Postfix header restrictions on its > own...*gasp* could it be: > > /^Received:\s*by\s*.*\(bulk_mailer\s*v\..+\);\s*.*$/ REJECT > > My oh my, it is! After this message I^H *cough* my machine, decided to > drop all e-mails that are sent by this popular piece of spamware. This > massive spam to every possible FreeBSD e-mail address made the final > decision. Now I^H *cough* my machine, gets to collect other spam and see > what else is being used out there, yay! > > -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 22:32:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goliath.siemens.de (goliath.siemens.de [194.138.37.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B356A37B7AC for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 22:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer goliath.siemens.de) Received: from mail2.siemens.de (mail2.siemens.de [139.25.208.11]) by goliath.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4B5WRP03078; Thu, 11 May 2000 07:32:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail2.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4B5WRB09777; Thu, 11 May 2000 07:32:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e4B5WRe14681; Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:32:26 +0200 From: Andre Albsmeier To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Andre Albsmeier , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any success on importing MS-Word docs in Applixware? Message-ID: <20000511073226.A4957@curry.mchp.siemens.de> References: <20000510075729.A25553@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Wed, May 10, 2000 at 03:29:35PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10-May-2000 at 15:29:35 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 10-May-00 Andre Albsmeier wrote: > > > Works some of the time, it hung on one of them after doing the conversion > > > :( > > But you never received the above error? What version of Applixware > > have you got? > > No, I have never got that error. > > I have version 4.42 (1021.544.22) Found the problem. cd /usr/lib && ln -s ln -f libc_r.so libc_r.so.3 solved it on 3.4-STABLE. Didn't know that libc_r.so.3 was a java library :-). Regarding the error messages, Applixware is as good as Micro$oft. -Andre > > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 10 23:39:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goliath.siemens.de (goliath.siemens.de [194.138.37.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BFF37B788 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 23:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer goliath.siemens.de) Received: from mail1.siemens.de (mail1.siemens.de [139.23.33.14]) by goliath.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4B6d9P18212; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:39:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail1.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4B6d8A14618; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:39:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e4B6d8s00619; Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:39:07 +0200 From: Andre Albsmeier To: Andre Albsmeier Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any success on importing MS-Word docs in Applixware? Message-ID: <20000511083907.A9711@curry.mchp.siemens.de> References: <20000510075729.A25553@curry.mchp.siemens.de> <20000511073226.A4957@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000511073226.A4957@curry.mchp.siemens.de>; from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de on Thu, May 11, 2000 at 07:32:26AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11-May-2000 at 07:32:26 +0200, Andre Albsmeier wrote: > On Wed, 10-May-2000 at 15:29:35 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > > > On 10-May-00 Andre Albsmeier wrote: > > > > Works some of the time, it hung on one of them after doing the conversion > > > > :( > > > But you never received the above error? What version of Applixware > > > have you got? > > > > No, I have never got that error. > > > > I have version 4.42 (1021.544.22) > > Found the problem. cd /usr/lib && ln -s ln -f libc_r.so libc_r.so.3 Sh*t, should read: cd /usr/lib && ln -s libc_r.so libc_r.so.3 Sorry, -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 11 0: 3:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2B737B7FD for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:03:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4B73Fd15711; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Omachonu Ogali Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ITS Brochure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 May 2000, Omachonu Ogali wrote: > ACK! Put the flamethrowers down! > > I misread the headers and thought the original spam was sent out with that > software, so my Postfix line ended up rejected all FreeBSD mail...Please > don't hurt me (anytime soon). And I thought you were being tongue-in-cheek. :-) > > My oh my, look what just landed in my Postfix header restrictions on its > > own...*gasp* could it be: > > > > /^Received:\s*by\s*.*\(bulk_mailer\s*v\..+\);\s*.*$/ REJECT > > > > My oh my, it is! After this message I^H *cough* my machine, decided to > > drop all e-mails that are sent by this popular piece of spamware. This > > massive spam to every possible FreeBSD e-mail address made the final > > decision. Now I^H *cough* my machine, gets to collect other spam and see > > what else is being used out there, yay! Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 11 12:36:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jaguars.cableinet.net (jaguars-int.cableinet.net [193.38.113.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4534137B78F for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 12:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: (qmail 13899 invoked by uid 21); 11 May 2000 15:39:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cream.org) (213.48.63.141) by jaguars with SMTP; 11 May 2000 15:39:11 -0000 Content-Length: 591 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000504130706.B2663@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 20:36:07 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Boothman To: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: Naw, Netscape doesn't have a memory problem! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , Allen Campbell , spork Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04-May-00 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I've removed my copy of NS 6, but Mozilla M15 -- linux build, on > FreeBSD -- seems to work. A bit slow (ok, very slow) but hasn't > crashed yet. What a ghastly page, though. If it crashes on windows, > well - doesn't everything? I've got the FreeBSD build of Mozilla M15 working really well, and it certainly doesn't seem slow to me (500Mhz Athlon, 128MB RAM). It's just a shame about the lack of Java support right now. --- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org Unmetered Telecoms. Join the Fight! http://www.unmetered.org.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 11 14: 3: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 338B437B6D2 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 14:02:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1739 invoked from network); 11 May 2000 21:01:52 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 11 May 2000 21:01:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 2394 invoked by uid 211); 11 May 2000 21:01:50 -0000 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 02:31:50 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Andrew Boothman Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , Allen Campbell , spork Subject: Re: Naw, Netscape doesn't have a memory problem! Message-ID: <20000512023150.B2363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Andrew Boothman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , Allen Campbell , spork References: <20000504130706.B2663@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from andrew@cream.org on Thu, May 11, 2000 at 08:36:07PM +0100 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Boothman said on May 11, 2000 at 20:36:07: > On 04-May-00 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > I've removed my copy of NS 6, but Mozilla M15 -- linux build, on > > FreeBSD -- seems to work. A bit slow (ok, very slow) but hasn't > > crashed yet. What a ghastly page, though. If it crashes on > > windows, well - doesn't everything? > > I've got the FreeBSD build of Mozilla M15 working really well, and > it certainly doesn't seem slow to me (500Mhz Athlon, 128MB RAM). > It's just a shame about the lack of Java support right now. Well, this is a 32 MB Pentium 200 MHz, so it's not surprising it's slow. It's significantly slower than Netscape 4.x. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 11 15: 6:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D67B37BBF5 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA13131 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 00:06:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.1.20000512000611.00a16bc0@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:07:32 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Intel to reveal more about the Itanium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Just read at: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1849709.html that Intel is going some steps for the Itanium support. -conmments? Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 11 15:54:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6FF37B65C for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@linkfast.net) Received: by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 00D059B1D; Thu, 11 May 2000 17:54:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:54:16 -0500 From: Matthew Fuller To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Andrew Boothman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , Allen Campbell , spork Subject: Re: Naw, Netscape doesn't have a memory problem! Message-ID: <20000511175416.A8827@linkfast.net> References: <20000504130706.B2663@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000512023150.B2363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000512023150.B2363@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Fri, May 12, 2000 at 02:31:50AM +0530 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 12, 2000 at 02:31:50AM +0530, a little birdie told me that Rahul Siddharthan remarked > Andrew Boothman said on May 11, 2000 at 20:36:07: > > > On 04-May-00 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > I've removed my copy of NS 6, but Mozilla M15 -- linux build, on > > > FreeBSD -- seems to work. A bit slow (ok, very slow) but hasn't > > > crashed yet. What a ghastly page, though. If it crashes on > > > windows, well - doesn't everything? > > > > I've got the FreeBSD build of Mozilla M15 working really well, and > > it certainly doesn't seem slow to me (500Mhz Athlon, 128MB RAM). > > It's just a shame about the lack of Java support right now. > > Well, this is a 32 MB Pentium 200 MHz, so it's not surprising it's > slow. It's significantly slower than Netscape 4.x. It is definately much slower than NS4. I have a dual PPro200 with 256 meg of RAM. It also crashes with about the same frequency. I'd like it better if it had certain features, like the 'progress' bar-thingy on loading pages, and a 'stop' button that could stop running GIF animations etc. However, it does show a lot of promise for the future, and I'm sure it'll surpass Nutscrape before too terribly much longer. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@linkfast.net Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 12 10:18: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D483037BE73 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 10:18:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29844; Fri, 12 May 2000 11:16:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000512111452.0451ebb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:16:25 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Andrew Boothman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Naw, Netscape doesn't have a memory problem! Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Allen Campbell , spork In-Reply-To: <20000512023150.B2363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000504130706.B2663@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:01 PM 5/11/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I've got the FreeBSD build of Mozilla M15 working really well, and > > it certainly doesn't seem slow to me (500Mhz Athlon, 128MB RAM). > > It's just a shame about the lack of Java support right now. > >Well, this is a 32 MB Pentium 200 MHz, so it's not surprising it's >slow. It's significantly slower than Netscape 4.x. Geeze, how easily we get spoiled! A 200 MHz Pentium with MMX has computing power of which an individual could only dream 5 years ago. The real crime is the way in which we waste that power. --Brett "Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft." -- Mark Stephens, AKA Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 12 10:20:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7093D37B62D for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 10:20:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29877; Fri, 12 May 2000 11:19:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000512111830.04528bd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:19:33 -0600 To: Matthew Fuller From: Brett Glass Subject: Ouch! (Was: Naw, Netscape doesn't have a memory problem!) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000511175416.A8827@linkfast.net> References: <20000512023150.B2363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000504130706.B2663@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000512023150.B2363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:54 PM 5/11/2000, Matthew Fuller wrote: >However, it does show a lot of promise for the future, and I'm sure it'll >surpass Nutscrape before too terribly much longer. ^^^^^^^^^ Ouch! What a painful pejorative.... --Brett "Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft." -- Mark Stephens, AKA Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 12 11:53:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 12EC137BEE8 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 11:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 10743 invoked by uid 211); 12 May 2000 18:53:02 -0000 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 00:23:01 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Andrew Boothman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Allen Campbell , spork Subject: Re: Naw, Netscape doesn't have a memory problem! Message-ID: <20000513002301.A10636@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Andrew Boothman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Allen Campbell , spork References: <20000504130706.B2663@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000512023150.B2363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000512111452.0451ebb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000512111452.0451ebb0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, May 12, 2000 at 11:16:25AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 12, 2000 at 11:16:25: > At 03:01 PM 5/11/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > I've got the FreeBSD build of Mozilla M15 working really well, and > > > it certainly doesn't seem slow to me (500Mhz Athlon, 128MB RAM). > > > It's just a shame about the lack of Java support right now. > > > >Well, this is a 32 MB Pentium 200 MHz, so it's not surprising it's > >slow. It's significantly slower than Netscape 4.x. > > Geeze, how easily we get spoiled! A 200 MHz Pentium with MMX has > computing power of which an individual could only dream 5 years > ago. Yes, this machine does one heck of a lot. It was running windows around 18 months ago, when most of our other machines had already been converted to linux, so I used it for test-driving FreeBSD. Since then it's a web server, email server, has tons of useful software (the newest being vigor) thanks to the ports collection... > The real crime is the way in which we waste that power. Yup. It was totally wasted in its windows days. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 12 18:26:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web4701.mail.yahoo.com (web4701.mail.yahoo.com [216.115.105.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C6F5737B52B for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 18:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kwuensche@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20000512230032.15094.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.180.159.81] by web4701.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 12 May 2000 16:00:32 PDT Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:00:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Kurt Wuensche Subject: Shopping carts To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone used the mini-vend shopping cart app? If so does it run easily on apache? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 12 21:20:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 598D437BE46 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 21:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06118; Fri, 12 May 2000 22:19:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000512221924.0493f940@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:19:51 -0600 To: Kurt Wuensche , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Shopping carts In-Reply-To: <20000512230032.15094.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check Bugtraq; it's been said that this app has back doors. --Brett At 05:00 PM 5/12/2000, Kurt Wuensche wrote: >Has anyone used the mini-vend shopping cart app? >If so does it run easily on apache? > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com/ > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message "Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft." -- Mark Stephens, AKA Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 5: 4:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C769B37BDDB for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 05:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e4DC4ga25508; Sat, 13 May 2000 08:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 08:04:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? In-Reply-To: <8f7l66$2a2p$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org its "techhh" ;) =) haven;t you ever read the TeX book? ;) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On 9 May 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > How do English speakers effectively pronounce "TeX"? > > (Yes, I know what Knuth says how it's pronounced.) > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 6:10:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8F837BE13 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 06:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from kickme (p161.usr.linkfast.net [208.170.100.161]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A61619B02 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 08:10:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> From: "gh" To: References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> Subject: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 08:08:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On Sat, 13 May 2000, Brennan W Stehling wrote: > > > > My flawed upgrade to 4.0 a while back left me feeling FreeBSD is going too > > > fast and that stability and quality is suffering. A friend of mine was > > > actually scared off and now prefers to go with Linux as it's development > > > seems to be more conservative. > > I don't know what kind of crack that guy is smoking, but there is > nothing at all conservative about Linux or GNU in general. Even if we > forget about all the communist ideology behind the GPL, they'll still > take a patch from just about anyone unless it total sucks. The only > reason that it looks like FreeBSD is moving so fast, as opposed to say, > RedHat, is because FreeBSD is controlled by one group, as opposed to > scavenging everything rom thousands of different people. Linux its self > is just an operating system kernel and can do nothing useful on it's > own. > Plus, do you think it's coincidence that Richard Stallmans name sounds > so much like Joseph Stalin? > > Curious: If many people are not in favor (for lack of a better phrase) of GNU, why do we still use tools developed under its ideology? As above, people are comparing this group to a group of "communists" and Stallman to Stalin. Who are we (or 'these people') to continue *using* GNU tools and things development along its ideology? This is almost like saying: Okay, we *really really* don't like you people, but as long as you are developing stuff, and are giving it away for free, we will gladly exploit this to further ourselves. With which I don't think I have a problem, but what do others believe? Dan gh Moved to -chat from -questions because -chat is more appropriate for this new question. ;-) > -- > William D. Freeman (wfreeman@picusnet.com) > http://memebers.xoom.com/EvilGNU > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.12 > GG d- s+:+ a--- C++ UB+++ P+ L- E--- W++ N-- o-- K- w--- > O---- M-- V-- PS--- PE+++ Y- PGP---- t+++ 5-- X+++ R* tv++ b+ DI++++ > D---- > G- e-- h! r++ !y+ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 6:16:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF64737BE38 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 06:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA50757; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:16:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:16:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200005131316.PAA50757@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8fjgg3$70b$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Pat Lynch wrote: > its "techhh" ;) > haven;t you ever read the TeX book? ;) Just for the record, me and most of my friends pronounce TeX like the German "Technik" (sorry, I don't know an English word that has that sound). I know it's not correct, but it's much easier for my German tongue. :-) Regards Oliver PS: Yes, I've read the TeX book. -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 7: 3:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from devils.maquina.com (devils.maquina.com [62.229.71.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE2B37B6CE for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 07:03:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gabriel@maquina.com) Received: from localhost (gabriel@localhost) by devils.maquina.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16994 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:02:58 +0100 (WEST) (envelope-from gabriel@maquina.com) X-Authentication-Warning: devils.maquina.com: gabriel owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:02:58 +0100 (WEST) From: Jose Gabriel Marcelino To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: YAPC 19100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Is any FreeBSD hacker going to YAPC (Yet Another Perl Conference) on June, 20th at CMU? Check out http://www.yapc.org/America/ I'm going from Portugal and I was hoping to meet other hackers there since I probably won't be able to make it to BSDcon 2000 this year :-( Regards, Gabriel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 8:13:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B7E37BB23 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 08:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.136.19]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAABDC; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:11:28 -0400 Message-ID: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:17:18 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gh Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org gh wrote: > ... > > Curious: If many people are not in favor (for lack of a better phrase) of > GNU, why do we still use tools developed under its ideology? > Because in many cases there is no other choice and because in some cases the code is actually good. > As above, people are comparing this group to a group of "communists" and > Stallman to Stalin. Who are we (or 'these people') to continue *using* GNU > tools and things development along its ideology? > The comparison is not unreasonable, it even is healthy..look in the archives, I worte something about this for the Daemonnews some time ago. OTOH, you don't need to agree with their license if you only execute the binaries, without redistribution and without looking at the source. > This is almost like saying: Okay, we *really really* don't like you people, > but as long as you are developing stuff, and are giving it away for free, we > will gladly exploit this to further ourselves. > Of course that's OK! There's no double moral in it. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 8:21:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5269337B535 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 08:21:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B4C5B5DB7; Sat, 13 May 2000 08:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 08:21:30 -0700 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: Brett Glass Cc: Kurt Wuensche , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shopping carts Message-ID: <20000513082130.A64351@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Kurt Wuensche , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000512230032.15094.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.1.2.20000512221924.0493f940@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000512221924.0493f940@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, May 12, 2000 at 10:19:51PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.0-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (79% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 8:20AM up 3 days, 18 mins, 1 user, load averages: 0.04, 0.14, 0.07 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, If you know of a hole in minivend I would really like to know. I know there are holes in cart32 software is is not the same. Yes I did look at BUGTRAQ ;-) On Fri, 12 May 2000, Brett Glass was heard blurting out: > Check Bugtraq; it's been said that this app has > back doors. > > --Brett > > At 05:00 PM 5/12/2000, Kurt Wuensche wrote: > > >Has anyone used the mini-vend shopping cart app? > >If so does it run easily on apache? > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Old age and treachery can always overcome youth and skill. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 8:26:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C1BB237B679 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 08:26:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 25917 invoked from network); 13 May 2000 15:26:14 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 May 2000 15:26:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 22110 invoked by uid 211); 13 May 2000 15:26:11 -0000 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:56:11 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org>; from giffunip@asme.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 10:17:18AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > As above, people are comparing this group to a group of "communists" and > > Stallman to Stalin. Who are we (or 'these people') to continue *using* GNU > > tools and things development along its ideology? > > > > The comparison is not unreasonable, it even is healthy..look in the > archives, I worte something about this for the Daemonnews some time ago. > OTOH, you don't need to agree with their license if you only execute the > binaries, without redistribution and without looking at the source. It's a strange sort of communist who insists on free speech all the time. Sure one may not agree with a lot of what RMS says, but there's a lot of crap spoken about him in the FreeBSD world which I'm not going to get into a flamewar about this time. If you want to know what he thinks, read his writings. Read his recent Slashdot interview. You may hate everything he says but you can't call him a communist unless you have no idea what he's about or what communism is about. > > This is almost like saying: Okay, we *really really* don't like you people, > > but as long as you are developing stuff, and are giving it away for free, we > > will gladly exploit this to further ourselves. > > > > Of course that's OK! There's no double moral in it. Absolutely. I detest the moral superiority and holier-than-thou attitude of many of the people in the FreeBSD project but I use the system anyway. I use linux too, it's not a "one or the other" thing. Use what suits you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 8:41: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFBD37B893 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 08:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA23928; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:39:48 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:39:48 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 May 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: [snip] > > Sure one may not agree with a lot of what RMS says, but there's a lot > of crap spoken about him in the FreeBSD world which I'm not going to > get into a flamewar about this time. If you want to know what he > thinks, read his writings. Read his recent Slashdot interview. You > may hate everything he says but you can't call him a communist unless > you have no idea what he's about or what communism is about. > Well, consider that a lot of people consider other people similarily 'fashists'. The both have come to be general 'names' to call people, only very loosely attached to the original meaning. The problem with the f and c words are that some people (me included) have real strong negative feelings about people denoted by the original meanings and easily get offended, something really ungraspable for the rest 8-) [snip] > > > > Of course that's OK! There's no double moral in it. > > Absolutely. I detest the moral superiority and holier-than-thou > attitude of many of the people in the FreeBSD project but I use the > system anyway. I use linux too, it's not a "one or the other" thing. > Use what suits you. > All too true. All camps I have seen have their 'holier-than-thou' paladins, and that most probably can't be helped. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 9: 7:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF3137BF28 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 09:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04323; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:07:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:07:18 -0600 To: "gh" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:08 AM 5/13/2000, gh wrote: >Curious: If many people are not in favor (for lack of a better phrase) of >GNU, why do we still use tools developed under its ideology? Because those tools have wiped out all but a few possible alternatives. This is, in fact, the goal of the predatory FSF agenda. I personally have advocated the complete de-GNUing of all of the BSDs. So far, the closest BSD to this goal is OpenBSD, which uses very little contaminated code. --Brett "Microsoft is continually protecting its turf, even if that turf appears to the rest of us as belonging to a company other than Microsoft." -- Mark Stephens, AKA Robert X. Cringely To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 9:24:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8AE7937BF28 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 09:24:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 26437 invoked from network); 13 May 2000 16:23:52 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 May 2000 16:23:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 6821 invoked by uid 211); 13 May 2000 16:23:51 -0000 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:53:50 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 10:07:18AM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 13, 2000 at 10:07:18: > At 07:08 AM 5/13/2000, gh wrote: > > >Curious: If many people are not in favor (for lack of a better phrase) of > >GNU, why do we still use tools developed under its ideology? > > I personally have advocated the complete de-GNUing of all of the BSDs. So how many replacements have you written for GNU utilities? And why aren't the FreeBSD project or other people using your de-GNU'd code? Is it possible that there may be more useful things for other people to do than rewrite existing well-written code? R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 9:50:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B978537B65B for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 09:50:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA48239; Sat, 13 May 2000 12:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:48:55 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Is it possible that there may be more useful things for other people > to do than rewrite existing well-written code? I assume you mean BSD people *not* reinventing the wheel? Because all you have to do is open your eyes to see that the GNU people have tried in almost every case to re-write well-written code just to make it available under the GPL. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 9:54:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FDC137BAD6 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 09:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04665; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:53:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:53:43 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:23 AM 5/13/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > I personally have advocated the complete de-GNUing of all of the BSDs. > >So how many replacements have you written for GNU utilities? I am probably not the best person to do all of the coding, as I am primarily an assembly language and embedded systems hacker. However, I would be willing to coordinate the effort. Who out there is interested in a project whose purpose is to "liberate" GNU code from its pernicious license, via either reimplementation or clean room reverse engineering? >Is it possible that there may be more useful things for other people >to do than rewrite existing well-written code? It depends on what you consider useful. GNU code not only useless to commercial developers but destructive and unethical. (Remember, the stated purpose of the GPL is to destroy programmers' livelihoods. It's no more ethical than Microsoft's predatory moves to wipe out Netscape.) Thus, providing truly free alternatives to GNU code is in fact very useful. --Brett Glass "I am, uh, BillGatus of Borg. Competition is futile. You will be integrated." --Brett Glass (After Jack Rickard) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 9:56:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A79D437B65B for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 09:56:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04692; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:56:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000513105453.04483d70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:56:03 -0600 To: scanner@jurai.net, Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:48 AM 5/13/2000, scanner@jurai.net wrote: > > Is it possible that there may be more useful things for other people > > to do than rewrite existing well-written code? > >I assume you mean BSD people *not* reinventing the wheel? >Because all you have to do is open your eyes to see that the GNU people >have tried in almost every case to re-write well-written code just to make >it available under the GPL. Indeed. The purpose -- since the code was already available from other sources -- was NOT to make something more useful or to advance the state of the art. Rather, it was to advance Richard Stallman's agenda. --Brett "I am, uh, BillGatus of Borg. Competition is futile. You will be integrated." --Brett Glass (After Jack Rickard) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 10:35:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C0B37BF42 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.137.81]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA268C; Sat, 13 May 2000 12:33:57 -0400 Message-ID: <391D9372.67FF28A9@asme.org> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:40:02 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > ... > > Sure one may not agree with a lot of what RMS says, but there's a lot > of crap spoken about him in the FreeBSD world which I'm not going to > get into a flamewar about this time. If you want to know what he > thinks, read his writings. Read his recent Slashdot interview. You > may hate everything he says but you can't call him a communist unless > you have no idea what he's about or what communism is about. > Been there, done that. Even when I haven't met him in person, my opinion of his ideas hasn't changed at all after I wrote my article. FWIW, JIC if you haven't heard news Colombia (where I will leave until August), I am fully aware of communism also. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 10:54:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E3A37B7CE for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:54:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14903; Sat, 13 May 2000 13:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA16056; Sat, 13 May 2000 13:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16052; Sat, 13 May 2000 13:53:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:53:18 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > I am probably not the best person to do all of the coding, as I am primarily > an assembly language and embedded systems hacker. However, I would be willing > to coordinate the effort. Who out there is interested in a project whose > purpose is to "liberate" GNU code from its pernicious license, via either > reimplementation or clean room reverse engineering? YO! My hellish semester is finally over here in just another week and a half and I was planning on beating down grep again. Also, a friend of mine is working on diff (he wanted to learn something so I thought I'd suggest a project that would be useful to the Real World). :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 12: 5: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8B637BBD3 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 12:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.136.158]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3770 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:03:31 -0400 Message-ID: <391DA87A.2AB9BB26@asme.org> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:09:46 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW, On the slasdot interview with the people from SCO, it was hinted that the might release other tools like lex. cheers, Pedro. James Howard wrote: > > On Sat, 13 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > I am probably not the best person to do all of the coding, as I am primarily > > an assembly language and embedded systems hacker. However, I would be willing > > to coordinate the effort. Who out there is interested in a project whose > > purpose is to "liberate" GNU code from its pernicious license, via either > > reimplementation or clean room reverse engineering? > > YO! > > My hellish semester is finally over here in just another week and a half > and I was planning on beating down grep again. Also, a friend of mine is > working on diff (he wanted to learn something so I thought I'd suggest a > project that would be useful to the Real World). :) > > Jamie > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 12:35:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101CB37B7D6 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 12:35:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r28.bfm.org [216.127.220.124]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:36:23 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:35:06 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan , "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:56 13-05-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >It's a strange sort of communist who insists on free speech all the >time. I have never met a Communist who did not insist on free speech. They don't let anyone have it, but they sure insist on it. >You may hate everything he says but you can't call him a communist unless >you have no idea what he's about or what communism is about. As someone who spent the first 29 years under Communism, I have a good idea of what Communism is about. Stallman's ideas are quite Communist. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 13: 7:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FACB37BF5C for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 13:07:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtjdv.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.205.191]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20080 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <391DB7B4.9AF04A1A@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:14:44 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391DA87A.2AB9BB26@asme.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > FWIW, > > On the slasdot interview with the people from SCO, it was hinted that > the might release other tools like lex. > Hey Pedro! :-) Man, SCO releasing lex would make my day! I just got through shoehorning flex into an embedded system here. It was not pretty... -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 13:46:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 38D4E37B7A3 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 13:46:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 28976 invoked from network); 13 May 2000 20:46:13 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 May 2000 20:46:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 23214 invoked by uid 211); 13 May 2000 20:46:11 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:16:11 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514021611.F22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com>; from redprince@redprince.net on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 02:35:06PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >You may hate everything he says but you can't call him a communist unless > >you have no idea what he's about or what communism is about. > > As someone who spent the first 29 years under Communism, I have a good idea > of what Communism is about. Stallman's ideas are quite Communist. Communism is about state control and restricting individual freedom -- originally in economic matters, like manufacturing and so on, but in practice in everything including speech and expression. The theory is that individuals are selfish so the state has to tell them what to do. Capitalism is about maximising individual freedom and using individual selfishness to increase social good. But a capitalist society still has some government enforcement mechanisms, like copyright/patent laws, antitrust laws and so on. Stallman wants to reduce the artificial monopolies like patents and copyrights. His ideas are contrary to the corporate culture in America, but in exactly the opposite direction that communism is. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 14:25:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29CB37B912 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:25:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r47.bfm.org [216.127.220.143]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:26:04 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513162448.00894a70@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 16:24:48 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000514021611.F22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:16 14-05-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Communism is about state control and restricting individual freedom -- >originally in economic matters, like manufacturing and so on, but >in practice in everything including speech and expression. The theory >is that individuals are selfish so the state has to tell them what to >do. Rahul, You have some theoretical ideas about Communism, but clearly no direct experience. We have no common ground for any further discussion. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 14:36: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D29437BB18 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:36:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 29421 invoked from network); 13 May 2000 21:35:48 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 May 2000 21:35:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 23269 invoked by uid 211); 13 May 2000 21:35:47 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 03:05:47 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514030547.H22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514021611.F22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513162448.00894a70@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513162448.00894a70@mail85.pair.com>; from redprince@redprince.net on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 04:24:48PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav said on May 13, 2000 at 16:24:48: > You have some theoretical ideas about Communism, but clearly no direct > experience. Not the Russian kind, no. There are lots of communists in India. It is perhaps the only country where communists have been elected to power (and out of power) -- thankfully only in two states and not at the centre. When you say "Stallman is a communist" surely you mean in theory: if you are merely talking of evil influence and so on, America's history of supporting tinpot dictatorships all over the world is worse than any communist country's (USSR included). Communism is a theory, your former country had its way of practising it, don't confuse the two issues. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 14:49:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A3A37B822 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 14:49:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtjdv.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.205.191]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23493 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <391DCF8E.ED183CF7@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:56:30 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514021611.F22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513162448.00894a70@mail85.pair.com> <20000514030547.H22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > G. Adam Stanislav said on May 13, 2000 at 16:24:48: > > > You have some theoretical ideas about Communism, but clearly no direct > > experience. > > Not the Russian kind, no. There are lots of communists in India. > It is perhaps the only country where communists have been elected > to power (and out of power) -- thankfully only in two states and > not at the centre. When you say "Stallman is a communist" surely > you mean in theory: if you are merely talking of evil influence and > so on, America's history of supporting tinpot dictatorships all over > the world is worse than any communist country's (USSR included). > Communism is a theory, your former country had its way of practising > it, don't confuse the two issues. > Truth is folks, I can't think of a single empire which has not descended into tyranny. If not toward its own peoples then toward the populations of its conquered nations. My belief is that GNU/FSF could become a tyrannical force as well. In some respects it already has. Still, I don't mind importing a little wheat from a communist nation -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 15: 6:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6DC437BB57 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:06:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16155; Sun, 14 May 2000 01:06:14 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:06:14 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com>; from redprince@redprince.net on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 02:35:06PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 02:35:06PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >You may hate everything he says but you can't call him a communist unless > >you have no idea what he's about or what communism is about. > > As someone who spent the first 29 years under Communism, I have a good idea > of what Communism is about. Stallman's ideas are quite Communist. No, they are not. And frankly, I wish you'd lose that "I lived in a Communist country, I know what it is and you don't" attitude that you're displaying: > You have some theoretical ideas about Communism, but clearly no direct > experience. We have no common ground for any further discussion. I was born and raised in THE Communist country, and I don't lack first-hand experience. Stallman has never insisted on anything resembling communist ideas in anything I've read written by him. The primary "radical" idea espoused by Stallman is his rejection of the idea of intellectual property. He belives that intellectual property is just plain wrong, and detrimental to the society. This opinion is certainly far from being mainstream; however, it is certainly not "communist" or "anti-capitalist". Intellectual property, unlike material property, is a fairly new idea, born in the 18th-century England. Surprising as it may be to you, anyone could "pirate" Shakespeare's First Folio when it appeared in 1623, re-publish it and sell it, and noone would have any legal or moral problems with that (including Shakespeare, if he lived to see that; he would've been pretty happy, I imagine). Human culture: prose, music, drama, poetry -- had flourished for thousands of years without any idea of property being attached to it. Somehow Greeks and Romans got along very nicely without it. Of course, the main difference between intellectual objects and material objects is that you can give someone an intellectual object without depriving yourself of it. From that point of view, it makes perfect sense to consider bread a kind of property and not to consider a poem a kind of property: noone loses anything if someone copies a poem for someone else (a faulty argument "the owner loses because he can't sell it now to that person" is a vicious circle argument which presupposes that a poem is property). In 18th-century England, the original intention of intellectual property -- copyright -- was to encourage creation of cultural artifacts by granting an *artificial* and *very limited in time* monopoly to the author of the right to sell and control the distribution of his work. The same idea of copyright appears in the US Constitution. Copyright was thought to be a state-imposed artificial kind of temporary property designed to encourage creation of new books, symphonies, et cetera. It is reasonable to argue that today's legal view of copyright -- *grossly* extended beyond that envisaged in the 18th century when it was created, in many ways -- is in fact detrimental to the society in many cases. The culture of the 21th century will not be able to build itself on the culture of the 20th in the same way as the culture of the 20th century built itself on the culture of the 19th -- because much of 20th century culture will be copyrighted and its use will be restricted throughout the next century. The lack of a large body of public-domain literature, for example, *will* have a detrimental effect on the next generation of writers (if they be any good) -- they won't be able to freely parodize/reuse/quote/utilize the work of their predecessors. So it is not unreasonable to argue against today's conception of copyright; it is not unreasonable to argue that it may hurt, rather than help, our culture; it is very reasonable to argue that intellectual property is not a "natural right" the way material property is, but rather is a privilege *we all* conspire to give the Author in order to encourage him to produce; and it is not unreasonable, although radical, to argue that given its faults intellectual property ought to be abolished or sidestepped in many cases. I don't think that abolishing intellectual property would be a good thing to do (restricting it would); yet identifying the argument for such abolishment as anti-capitalist is a knee-jerk reaction that is not founded in reality. Stallman has never argued, AFAIK, for abolishing *material* property (which is actually *the* Communist idea; Communism as an ideology is rather indifferent to intellectual property and its special status); he has never argued against democracy, or capitalism, or free market, or any other Western capitalist ideal. He has argued against intellectual property, in particular its restrictions in software; and that is a radical and doubtable idea, but to claim it's Communist is to make a fool of oneself, IMHO. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 15:16:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852A537B7C0 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:16:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16217; Sun, 14 May 2000 01:16:12 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:16:12 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: scanner@jurai.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514011612.B16058@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from scanner@jurai.net on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 12:48:55PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 12:48:55PM -0400, scanner@jurai.net wrote: > > > Is it possible that there may be more useful things for other people > > to do than rewrite existing well-written code? > > I assume you mean BSD people *not* reinventing the wheel? > Because all you have to do is open your eyes to see that the GNU people > have tried in almost every case to re-write well-written code just to make > it available under the GPL. This is grossly anti-historical. At the time many GNU utilities were written, the original UNIX utilities were not available in source form freely. You had to buy a UNIX source license. In other words, it's not like GNU people didn't like the BSD ls(1), they *couldn't* provide a free-for-use source of ls(1), and had to write their own. Of course, there's an easy way for you to prove me wrong. Please point out to me a GNU replacement of sendmail, perl, or bind. These are (some of) large free software projects that *were* available for free use in source form. Surely the GNU people must've rewritten them all to release them under the GPL? I find myself in an awkward situation, defending a project (GNU) which I don't like *too* much (and certainly prefer BSD to it) simply because the unfair treatment it's given here is too ridiculous to ignore. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 15:21: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9655837B629 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:20:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16254; Sun, 14 May 2000 01:20:24 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:20:24 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514012024.A16224@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 10:53:43AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 10:53:43AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > (Remember, the stated > purpose of the GPL is to destroy programmers' livelihoods. This is one bit of silly nonsense I wish you would stop repeating. > Thus, > providing truly free alternatives to GNU code is in fact very useful. What's very useful is writing new code for people to use. It's not like there's any lack of goals in that direction. Let's concentrate on them. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 15:30:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 11B7C37B629 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:30:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 30266 invoked from network); 13 May 2000 22:29:59 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 May 2000 22:29:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 23321 invoked by uid 211); 13 May 2000 22:29:58 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 03:59:57 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514035957.J22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com>; from mellon@pobox.com on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:06:14AM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Very well stated. In fact, Stallman's central point (which he makes repeatedly) is that the US copyright law was intended to benefit the public, not the authors. Benefits to authors are only an inducement, not a reward. He has no problems with such restrictions as long as they benefit the public; his case is that, with today's extended copyright periods and new laws and media, they have ceased to do so, and in the case of software, restrictions on copying benefit nobody. Read, for example, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/reevaluating-copyright.html You may or may not agree. But I don't see how anyone can read it carefully and seriously call Stallman a communist. R. Anatoly Vorobey said on May 14, 2000 at 01:06:14: > On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 02:35:06PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > >You may hate everything he says but you can't call him a communist unless > > >you have no idea what he's about or what communism is about. > > > > As someone who spent the first 29 years under Communism, I have a good idea > > of what Communism is about. Stallman's ideas are quite Communist. > > No, they are not. And frankly, I wish you'd lose that "I lived in > a Communist country, I know what it is and you don't" attitude that > you're displaying: > > > You have some theoretical ideas about Communism, but clearly no direct > > experience. We have no common ground for any further discussion. > > I was born and raised in THE Communist country, and I don't lack > first-hand experience. Stallman has never insisted on anything resembling > communist ideas in anything I've read written by him. > > The primary "radical" idea espoused by Stallman is his rejection of > the idea of intellectual property. He belives that intellectual > property is just plain wrong, and detrimental to the society. > > This opinion is certainly far from being mainstream; however, it is > certainly not "communist" or "anti-capitalist". Intellectual property, > unlike material property, is a fairly new idea, born in the 18th-century > England. Surprising as it may be to you, anyone could "pirate" > Shakespeare's First Folio when it appeared in 1623, re-publish it and > sell it, and noone would have any legal or moral problems with that > (including Shakespeare, if he lived to see that; he would've been > pretty happy, I imagine). > > Human culture: prose, music, drama, poetry -- had flourished for > thousands of years without any idea of property being attached to it. > Somehow Greeks and Romans got along very nicely without it. Of > course, the main difference between intellectual objects and material > objects is that you can give someone an intellectual object without > depriving yourself of it. From that point of view, it makes perfect > sense to consider bread a kind of property and not to consider a poem > a kind of property: noone loses anything if someone copies a poem for > someone else (a faulty argument "the owner loses because he can't sell > it now to that person" is a vicious circle argument which presupposes > that a poem is property). > > In 18th-century England, the original intention of intellectual > property -- copyright -- was to encourage creation of cultural > artifacts by granting an *artificial* and *very limited in time* > monopoly to the author of the right to sell and control the > distribution of his work. The same idea of copyright appears in > the US Constitution. Copyright was thought to be a state-imposed > artificial kind of temporary property designed to encourage > creation of new books, symphonies, et cetera. > > It is reasonable to argue that today's legal view of copyright -- > *grossly* extended beyond that envisaged in the 18th century when > it was created, in many ways -- is in fact detrimental to the society > in many cases. The culture of the 21th century will not be able to > build itself on the culture of the 20th in the same way as the > culture of the 20th century built itself on the culture of the 19th -- > because much of 20th century culture will be copyrighted and its > use will be restricted throughout the next century. The lack of a > large body of public-domain literature, for example, *will* have > a detrimental effect on the next generation of writers (if they be > any good) -- they won't be able to freely parodize/reuse/quote/utilize > the work of their predecessors. > > So it is not unreasonable to argue against today's conception of > copyright; it is not unreasonable to argue that it may hurt, rather > than help, our culture; it is very reasonable to argue that intellectual > property is not a "natural right" the way material property is, but > rather is a privilege *we all* conspire to give the Author in order > to encourage him to produce; and it is not unreasonable, although > radical, to argue that given its faults intellectual property ought > to be abolished or sidestepped in many cases. I don't think that > abolishing intellectual property would be a good thing to do > (restricting it would); yet identifying the argument for such abolishment > as anti-capitalist is a knee-jerk reaction that is not founded in reality. > > Stallman has never argued, AFAIK, for abolishing *material* property > (which is actually *the* Communist idea; Communism as an ideology > is rather indifferent to intellectual property and its special status); > he has never argued against democracy, or capitalism, or free market, > or any other Western capitalist ideal. He has argued against > intellectual property, in particular its restrictions in software; and > that is a radical and doubtable idea, but to claim it's Communist is > to make a fool of oneself, IMHO. > > -- > Anatoly Vorobey, > mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ > "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 15:39:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F6D37BA69 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtjdv.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.205.191]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08761 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:46:22 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > Stallman has never argued, AFAIK, for abolishing *material* property > (which is actually *the* Communist idea; Communism as an ideology > is rather indifferent to intellectual property and its special status); > he has never argued against democracy, or capitalism, or free market, > or any other Western capitalist ideal. He has argued against > intellectual property, in particular its restrictions in software; and > that is a radical and doubtable idea, but to claim it's Communist is > to make a fool of oneself, IMHO. In the present (US) economy intellectual property can be readily converted to material property. IMHO, Richard Stallman aligned GNU with communist ideology on purpose. Perhaps for the shock value to help generate controversy during the early stages of the GNU project and maybe even because he agrees with many of the tenets of communism. Not that I agree with many aspects of capitalism as it exists today either, particularly when one considers the often unhealthy influence wealthy corporations hold over our governments. It seems to me that greed is a universal ideology, regardless of any system of "government". Many people are against GNU because it attacks their livelihoods as being unethical and has been perceived as a threat to their lifestyles. It's pretty simple really. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 15:49: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2047237B629 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:48:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 30433 invoked from network); 13 May 2000 22:48:50 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 May 2000 22:48:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 23336 invoked by uid 211); 13 May 2000 22:48:49 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:18:49 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com>; from jhix@mindspring.com on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 03:46:22PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Stallman has never argued, AFAIK, for abolishing *material* property > > (which is actually *the* Communist idea; Communism as an ideology > > is rather indifferent to intellectual property and its special status); > > he has never argued against democracy, or capitalism, or free market, > > or any other Western capitalist ideal. He has argued against > > intellectual property, in particular its restrictions in software; and > > that is a radical and doubtable idea, but to claim it's Communist is > > to make a fool of oneself, IMHO. > > In the present (US) economy intellectual property can be readily > converted to material property. Irrelevant. You can get material property from the sea (eg by fishing) but that doesn't mean you should own the sea. It's even more irrelevant than that: by fishing you decrease the number of fish in the sea, but by borrowing ideas you don't decrease the number of ideas in the world. Any scientist knows that new ideas can develop only by building on old ideas. If you stop sharing of "intellectual property", you'll kill growth of ideas, and that's not in the public interest -- though it may make a few people very rich in the short term. When the present (US) economy reaches a stage when Amazon can charge royalties for its single-click patent, you know that something is wrong somewhere. > early stages of the GNU project and maybe even because he agrees with > many of the tenets of communism. Why don't you ask him that one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16: 2:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E359B37B61D for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh3.bfm.org [216.127.220.196]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:03:29 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:02:13 -0500 To: Anatoly Vorobey From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:06 14-05-2000 +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >He has argued against >intellectual property, in particular its restrictions in software; and >that is a radical and doubtable idea, but to claim it's Communist is >to make a fool of oneself, IMHO. OK, let me rephrase it: It is very Marxist. And, of course, Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto. Stallman's idea is that software author has no rights. He produces something, but it does not belong to him. It belongs to the masses. The "party" has full control over it. The "party" can even change the license in the future to whatever it wants, without the author having any say. In a Stallmanistic society the programmer has the duty to write software because he has the ability to do so. He may expect nothing in return. Everyone gives according to his abilities, everyone takes (in theory) according to his needs. That is the basic dictum of Communism. In my home country this was even in the Constitution. Of course, in reality, everyone was expected to give all he could, his needs be damned. That, also, is the reality of Stallmanism. It does not matter that it is intellectual property he talks about. It still boils down to the society as represented by the party owning the property. Of course, Stallman does not decry material property. Doing so would be a tactical mistake because it would make him transparent and he would not have gained the blind following he has now. A note to Rahul: Communism is not about the State having control. It is about the "society" having control. State is irrelevant. In Communist countries the control was with the Communist Party, not with the State. The State was just a puppet in the hands of the party. In most Communist countries the distinction was carefully disguised by making the same person the head of the party and of the State. But on occasion, they were two distinct persons, and it was the party leader that had all control in his hands. A classical example was Czechoslovakia in 1969-1970. After it was invaded by the Soviets and others, they kept President Svoboda in office. But they made Gustav Husak the head of the Party. All power and control was in Husak's hands. Svoboda was a figure head. Once he died, Husak became President while keeping his Party post. This way they were able to restore the semblance of the President having power. But he only had it because he "also" headed the Party. And, by the way, India is not the only country where Communists are elected in and out of office. I have seen the same happen in Italy during my four years there. As long as Communists are not elected to total control of the country, they do not have the means of changing the totality political system. This is why it is important to have and keep alternatives to Stallman's agenda. If his followers ever get the chance to control the total of software development, it will be as hard to reverse it as it was for the people of Communist countries to shed Communism. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16:14: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E1737B5E8 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:14:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtjdv.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.205.191]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05183 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <391DE35C.BA359426@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 16:21:00 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > In the present (US) economy intellectual property can be readily > > converted to material property. > > Irrelevant. You can get material property from the sea (eg by > fishing) but that doesn't mean you should own the sea. It's relevant in trying to explain the topic. Also, it's a bit of a stretch to say a holder of one bit of intellectual property would believe that they "own the sea" of proprietary works. > It's even more > irrelevant than that: by fishing you decrease the number of fish in > the sea, but by borrowing ideas you don't decrease the number of ideas > in the world. Any scientist knows that new ideas can develop only by > building on old ideas. If you stop sharing of "intellectual > property", you'll kill growth of ideas, and that's not in the public > interest -- though it may make a few people very rich in the short > term. When the present (US) economy reaches a stage when Amazon can > charge royalties for its single-click patent, you know that something > is wrong somewhere. Indeed, the US Patent Office has been doing more damage to the concept of valid IP protection than perhaps any other force. That doesn't mean that the whole concept of protection for intellectual property is invalid. The ideology in the United States assumes that capital investment is required to produce intellectual property. In many cases this is very true, especially when one considers the "soft-silicon" IP market where major investments are required to produce and verify designs. Elimination of profit incentive in these markets could have a major detrimental effect on the investments required to produce the innovations we have been enjoying. What is often not considered is that the labor and intellectual effort that goes into producing software is a form of "capital". Eliminating profit incentive in software development will have a direct impact on the growth of new ideas as mindshare moves to fields that are more sustainable for those individuals. > > early stages of the GNU project and maybe even because he agrees with > > many of the tenets of communism. > > Why don't you ask him that one. Thanks for being condescending. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16:14:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3819437B5A9 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh3.bfm.org [216.127.220.196]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:15:27 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:14:15 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan , W Gerald Hicks From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:18 14-05-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >by borrowing ideas you don't decrease the number of ideas >in the world. Sure you do! If you expect your ideas to be stolen with no rewards to you, soon you will stop coming up with new ideas. Not because you lost your ability but because you have no motivation. This is precisely why former Communist countries were such a failure economically. There was no reward for innovation, so there was no innovation. Now we see a surge of creativity coming out of there. It was not born overnight. It was always there, but it stayed dormant. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16:25: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C370637B674 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:25:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh3.bfm.org [216.127.220.196]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:25:52 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513182440.00892db0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:24:40 -0500 To: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <391DE35C.BA359426@mindspring.com> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:21 13-05-2000 -0700, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >Indeed, the US Patent Office has been doing more damage to the concept >of valid IP protection than perhaps any other force. Mostly because the patent is rarely granted to the creator of the idea. The current GIF fiasco is a good example. It is not Lempel and Ziw who hold patent to Lempel-Ziw. It is Unisys. The fact that it was developed by their employee should not make them owners of the idea. They did not teach their employee how to think: They hired him because he already knew how to think. They may own whatever specific products he was paid to create for them, but they should have no claim on the algorithms he used. Those should have remained his. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16:30:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5918B37BB56 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA16819; Sun, 14 May 2000 02:30:00 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:30:00 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com>; from redprince@redprince.net on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:02:13PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:02:13PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 01:06 14-05-2000 +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > >He has argued against > >intellectual property, in particular its restrictions in software; and > >that is a radical and doubtable idea, but to claim it's Communist is > >to make a fool of oneself, IMHO. > > OK, let me rephrase it: It is very Marxist. And, of course, Marx wrote the > Communist Manifesto. It's not Marxist either. > Stallman's idea is that software author has no rights. He produces > something, but it does not belong to him. It belongs to the masses. Chess games cannot be copyrighted. I don't know if you play chess, but if you do, you must know that chess games can be works of art, they can be extremely nontrivial, and contain exhilarating, new ideas that noone before had thought of. And yet, if you publish a game that you played, everyone is legally and morally free to republish it however he wants, without paying you a dime. Why? Because chess games are not intellectual property. When I copy a chess game that you played and give it to my friend, I don't deprive you of anything. I don't deprive you of your ability to enjoy your chess game. Certainly the law agrees with me here. Do you think the law is unfair? Are you willing to claim this is a Communist tendency and go lobby against it in the Congress? The law doesn't agree with me here if I copy an article written by you instead (even though a chess game might be much more imaginative, original and important than an article). Why? Because the state wants to give you an incentive to write articles, and is less interested to give you an incentive to play chess games. Unless you dwell on that, and realize that intellectual property is *not* automatically a natural, "God-given" right like material property is thought by many to be, you will repeat the same basic mistake in your reasoning. Stallman's idea is that intellectual objects belong to everyone who cares to use them, and the world has been living according to *his* idea for thousands of years, excluding the last two centuries. Are you willing to claim that the world has been Marxist for all time until the 18th century? A little historical and philosophical perspective would do wonders, I am sure. Why should you be able to stop me from using something created by you, if that act of using it absolutely does not hinder you in any way? If I live in a room you own, you can't live in it. If I copy a poem you wrote, you *can* continie reading it. The situation in which I have to pay you in order to copy that poem or that source code is *not* "natural": it is specifically designed to benefit *you* as the author. Which is fine with me (but not with Stallman), though I wish you would at least understand that. > The > "party" has full control over it. The "party" can even change the license > in the future to whatever it wants, without the author having any say. This is not grounded in fact. If I release a piece of software under GPL, you are *not* free to change the license; in fact, this lack of freedom is what is so aggravating about GPL to BSD people in the first place! What are you smoking? > In a Stallmanistic society the programmer has the duty to write software > because he has the ability to do so. He may expect nothing in return. That is not correct. However, it is correct that in Stallman's opinion, you should not be free to restrict the use of something you released. It is notable that Stallman is not trying to achieve that goal through forcing you to do that; he's not lobbying for changing the copyright law; he's trying to establish a body of software based on that principle. I don't quite see what's so totalitarian and Stalinistic about that. *You* are arguing that a programmer should be free to use whatever license he wants, and Stallman does *exactly that*. This is what copyleft is all about. > Everyone gives according to his abilities, everyone takes (in theory) > according to his needs. No, Stallman has never (AFAIK) said that. You're putting words in his mouth again. > It does not matter that it is intellectual property he talks about. It > still boils down to the society as represented by the party owning the > property. Of course, Stallman does not decry material property. Doing so > would be a tactical mistake because it would make him transparent and he > would not have gained the blind following he has now. Now you're being paranoid. This "he's lying and hiding his true intentions" argument, by the way, is a basic argument of Marxism. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16:41:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 16F7A37B63E for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:41:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 30990 invoked from network); 13 May 2000 23:41:20 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 May 2000 23:41:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 23463 invoked by uid 211); 13 May 2000 23:41:18 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 05:11:18 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com>; from mellon@pobox.com on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 02:30:00AM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The > > "party" has full control over it. The "party" can even change the license > > in the future to whatever it wants, without the author having any say. > > This is not grounded in fact. If I release a piece of software under > GPL, you are *not* free to change the license; in fact, this lack of > freedom is what is so aggravating about GPL to BSD people in the first > place! What are you smoking? I think he's referring to the "copying" file distributed with many GPL software, saying that you may distribute it under the GPL version 2, or "at your discretion, any later version". That is a choice of the author, who apparently trusts the FSF not to make undesirable changes to the GPL, but it is not necessary. > > In a Stallmanistic society the programmer has the duty to write software > > because he has the ability to do so. He may expect nothing in return. > > That is not correct. However, it is correct that in Stallman's opinion, > you should not be free to restrict the use of something you released. > It is notable that Stallman is not trying to achieve that goal through > forcing you to do that; he's not lobbying for changing the copyright > law; he's trying to establish a body of software based on that principle. > I don't quite see what's so totalitarian and Stalinistic about that. > *You* are arguing that a programmer should be free to use whatever > license he wants, and Stallman does *exactly that*. This is what copyleft > is all about. And if you don't like his license, don't use his code. If intellectual property and copyright laws didn't exist, anyone could use his code and he wouldn't have bothered with creating the GPL. Since such laws do exist, he's using those laws to ensure that copying his work remains permitted. He has every right to do that, and you have no right to demand that he use a different license. Moreover, Stallman has never been against moneymaking -- from selling packaged copies of the software, custom-writing software, offering support services, whatever. The GNU project itself sells CDs at substantially higher prices than their bare production cost. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16:43:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55EE437B63E for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:42:26 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "W Gerald Hicks" , Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 16:43:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfbd35$0bcd8d40$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513182440.00892db0@mail85.pair.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Mostly because the patent is rarely granted to the creator of the > idea. The > current GIF fiasco is a good example. It is not Lempel and Ziw who hold > patent to Lempel-Ziw. It is Unisys. The fact that it was > developed by their > employee should not make them owners of the idea. They did not teach their > employee how to think: They hired him because he already knew how > to think. > They may own whatever specific products he was paid to create for > them, but > they should have no claim on the algorithms he used. Those should have > remained his. > Adam Suppose the patent was granted to Lempel and Ziw, should they have been allowed to sell it to Unisys had they chosen to? And should they have been allowed to assign any ideas they might develop to Unisys when their employment began? All you need is for Lempel and Ziw to have the freedom to choose to work for Unisys or not and the freedom to negotiate whatever terms with Unisys that are found mutually agreeable. The PTO has no control over such agreements and is not responsible for the outcome. Prohibiting people who come up with ideas from selling or assigning them just decreases the value of such people to their employers. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16:46:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8855B37BBB9 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh3.bfm.org [216.127.220.196]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:47:15 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513184603.00896100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:46:03 -0500 To: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513182440.00892db0@mail85.pair.com> References: <391DE35C.BA359426@mindspring.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 16:21 13-05-2000 -0700, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >>Indeed, the US Patent Office has been doing more damage to the concept >>of valid IP protection than perhaps any other force. > >Mostly because the patent is rarely granted to the creator of the idea. Let me also add there is a big difference between what copyright protects and what patents cover. Copyright protects IP in literal sense: An author creates something, and it belongs to him for life (and his heirs for a limited time). It's true property, and the author is a true owner. But patents do not protect a property, they protect discovery of natural laws. When someone invents something, he discovers some law of nature, he discovers how things work. But those laws are not his. They were always here, we just did not know about them. A patent does not really protect ownership of a discovery, rather it grants the discoverer a temporary exclusive use of his own discovery. I think its main purpose is to encourage the discoverer into publishing of his discovery. Without patent protection many discoveries would be kept in secret. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16:48:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B02C337B63E for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:48:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 31054 invoked from network); 13 May 2000 23:48:13 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 May 2000 23:48:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 23484 invoked by uid 211); 13 May 2000 23:48:10 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 05:18:09 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514051809.N22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com>; from redprince@redprince.net on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:14:15PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav said on May 13, 2000 at 18:14:15: > At 04:18 14-05-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >by borrowing ideas you don't decrease the number of ideas > >in the world. > > Sure you do! If you expect your ideas to be stolen with no rewards to you, > soon you will stop coming up with new ideas. Not because you lost your > ability but because you have no motivation. In that case, research in universities should have come to a standstill by now. It's not "stealing", it's "sharing". > This is precisely why former Communist countries were such a failure > economically. There was no reward for innovation, so there was no > innovation. Now we see a surge of creativity coming out of there. It was > not born overnight. It was always there, but it stayed dormant. Actually they always did well in basic research. Some of the most important physics this century came from Russia. They didn't do well technologically because of government-controlled industries and lack of competition. Technological improvement comes about when several companies compete to produce similar products. Incentives through patents and royalties can help there up to a point. But when it gets to the stage when one is effectively giving a monopoly to a company through patents for a basic idea, rather than a specific manufactured product design, then one is killing competition and quality will eventually go out the window. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 16:48:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDAB537B63E for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA17056; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:48:16 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 16:48:16 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005132348.QAA17056@sharmas.dhs.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > > > As above, people are comparing this group to a group of "communists" and > > > Stallman to Stalin. Who are we (or 'these people') to continue *using* GNU > > > tools and things development along its ideology? > > > > > > > The comparison is not unreasonable, it even is healthy..look in the > > archives, I worte something about this for the Daemonnews some time ago. > > OTOH, you don't need to agree with their license if you only execute the > > binaries, without redistribution and without looking at the source. > > It's a strange sort of communist who insists on free speech all the > time. Are you implying that communism and free speech are antonyms ? I think, communism and free speech are quite compatible, at least in theory. Sure, GNU bashing in *BSD groups should be toned down and I think, the same energies should be redirected towards educating the joe programmer (is FreeBSD a version of Linux ? type) about the harms that GPL does. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:17: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA8337B916 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17113; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:16:38 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:16:38 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140016.RAA17113@sharmas.dhs.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514021611.F22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514021611.F22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > > Communism is about state control and restricting individual freedom -- > originally in economic matters, like manufacturing and so on, but > in practice in everything including speech and expression. The theory > is that individuals are selfish so the state has to tell them what to > do. > > Capitalism is about maximising individual freedom and using individual > selfishness to increase social good. But a capitalist society still > has some government enforcement mechanisms, like copyright/patent > laws, antitrust laws and so on. That's a pretty one sided picture. There are evil sides to both theories. One prime example of this is the Indian state of Kerala, which has been ruled by communists within the framework of democracy. The state has the highest literacy in the country, no industries because of labor problems d and scores very well on most yard sticks of progress. On the other hand, many the other "capitalist" states in India have flourishing industries, but the average man on the street is worse off than the one in the communist state. I think the closest political analogy to the GNU philosophy is communism within the framework of democracy. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:27:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.x-treme.gr (mail2.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AE937B64A for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:27:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat32.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.224]) by mail2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.2) with ESMTP id DAA13934; Sun, 14 May 2000 03:27:02 +0300 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e4E0RK001381; Sun, 14 May 2000 03:27:20 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 03:27:20 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514032720.A87670@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 10:53:43AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 10:53:43AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > (Remember, the stated purpose of the GPL is to destroy programmers' > livelihoods. I don't see how this can be derived from anything that Stallman has said, and it would be very interesting to see how you came to this conclusion. The closest thing that I've ever heard from GNU people is that programmers tend to ask for too much money, just because of a silly belief that they are the `High priests in the Software Temple'. But saying that programmers can live on less exotic amounts of money, is far different from saying that programmers should not be paid at all. All this said, I have to note that it feels strange to advocate for Stallman, long after I was enlightened and switched over to BSD from Linux. But I'm anxiously waiting to see where and how you saw it written that programmers' livelihood is GNU's enemy. - giorgos keramidas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:27:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FD437B64A for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17120; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:27:06 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:27:06 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140027.RAA17120@sharmas.dhs.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > It is reasonable to argue that today's legal view of copyright -- > *grossly* extended beyond that envisaged in the 18th century when > it was created, in many ways -- is in fact detrimental to the society > in many cases. Detrimental to the society, but good for individual freedom (of making money). That's a core idea from communism. That's also the primary area where capitalism and communism disagree. One can also argue that investing in a tobacco company is detrimental to the society. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:28:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D650637B64A for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:28:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r1.bfm.org [216.127.220.97]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:29:39 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:28:27 -0500 To: Anatoly Vorobey From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:30 14-05-2000 +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >Chess games cannot be copyrighted. A chess player does not create anything. He discovers how things work. He discovers laws of nature. He does not own those laws. A programmer creates a product. He builds a machine. The fact the machine is "soft" and easy to duplicate is irrelevant. The program is a program not because it starts as words in a programming language. The program only matters because after it is compiled, it is loaded into computer memory and rewires the circuitry of the computer. It turns a general-purpose machine into a different machine that now does something it could not do before (I mean in actualitate, not in potentia). >And yet, if you publish a game that you played, everyone is legally >and morally free to republish it however he wants, without paying you >a dime. Why? Because chess games are not intellectual property. So? Chess is a game, not a new machine. >The law doesn't agree with me here if I copy an article written by >you instead (even though a chess game might be much more imaginative, >original and important than an article). Why? Because the state wants >to give you an incentive to write articles, and is less interested >to give you an incentive to play chess games. No, the state is not giving you an incentive to write articles (I'm talking about the purpose of the protection), it is recognizing that you own what you created. >Unless you dwell on that, and realize that intellectual property >is *not* automatically a natural, "God-given" right like material >property is thought by many to be, you will repeat the same basic >mistake in your reasoning. Stallman's idea is that intellectual objects >belong to everyone who cares to use them, Software is not intellectual objects, it is a machine. And for what it's worth, I don't believe in God. Nor do I necessarily believe that the concept of property is "natural." But as long as I live in a society where everyone else gets paid for his work, I'd like to be paid for mine. > and the world has been >living according to *his* idea for thousands of years, excluding >the last two centuries. The world had no concept of anything like software until this century (assuming we both agree we still are in the 20th). >Why should you be able to stop me from using something created by >you, if that act of using it absolutely does not hinder you in any >way? It does hinder me if I work and do not get paid for while I live in a society I have to pay everyone else for their work. It is a matter of justice. > If I live in a room you own, you can't live in it. If I >copy a poem you wrote, you *can* continie reading it. I don't write poems I design machines. > The situation >in which I have to pay you in order to copy that poem or that >source code is *not* "natural": it is specifically designed to >benefit *you* as the author. It is designed to benefit me for my work. > Which is fine with me (but not with Stallman), Which makes him a Communist. >though I wish you would at least understand that. Having spent tens of thousands of dollars to produce soft machinery that I was not paid and had to go bankrupt several years ago for thanks to the attitude like yours and Stallman's, I understand. I wish you and Stallman did, and everyone else who felt he was not hurting me in any way by taking away product of years of my toil by using it without pay. >> The >> "party" has full control over it. The "party" can even change the license >> in the future to whatever it wants, without the author having any say. > >This is not grounded in fact. If I release a piece of software under >GPL, you are *not* free to change the license; I did not say *I* was. Stallman is. The GPL states it covers this or any FUTURE version of GPL. Stallman can decide to take full property of any and all software ever released under GPL with its (the software's) engineers having nothing to say about it. >*You* are arguing that a programmer should be free to use whatever >license he wants, and Stallman does *exactly that*. This is what copyleft >is all about. No, Stallman is NOT doing that. Stallman reserves the right to change GPL at any time without the programmer having anything to say about it. If Stallman release his OWN software that way, that is his business. That he reserves the right to change the license to work of other programmers is not. Especially if, as is generally the case, most of those programmers do not realize it. >> Everyone gives according to his abilities, everyone takes (in theory) >> according to his needs. > >No, Stallman has never (AFAIK) said that. You're putting words in >his mouth again. I did not say he said those specific words. It is the *idea* that he espouses and preaches vehemently regardless of its wording. >Now you're being paranoid. This "he's lying and hiding his true >intentions" argument, by the way, is a basic argument of Marxism. He has an agenda and is not fully honest about it. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:32:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2D137B64A for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r1.bfm.org [216.127.220.97]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:33:08 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513193157.00897330@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:31:57 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Anatoly Vorobey From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:11 14-05-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Moreover, Stallman has never been against moneymaking -- from >selling packaged copies of the software, custom-writing software, >offering support services, whatever. The GNU project itself sells >CDs at substantially higher prices than their bare production cost. Yes, and Communist leaders made a lot more money than anyone else in their countries. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:34:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A3B837B64A for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:34:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA48650 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:34:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:34:22 -0400 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000513203421.A48538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000514011612.B16058@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000514011612.B16058@happy.checkpoint.com>; from mellon@pobox.com on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:16:12AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ____________ _________ | PLEASE DO | | | | NOT FEED | | THANK | | THE TROLLS | | YOU | |____________| |_________| || | || | || | || | || | || | || | || | ````````|| |```````````|| |````````` -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:35:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CE237BBE5 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:35:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r1.bfm.org [216.127.220.97]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:36:35 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513193524.00898eb0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:35:24 -0500 To: "David Schwartz" , "W Gerald Hicks" , From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <000001bfbd35$0bcd8d40$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513182440.00892db0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:43 13-05-2000 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Suppose the patent was granted to Lempel and Ziw, But it wasn't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:39:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B2937BA3D for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:39:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA00941 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 14 May 2000 10:10:25 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:10:25 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? Message-ID: <20000514101025.B847@freebie.lemis.com> References: <8fjgg3$70b$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200005131316.PAA50757@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200005131316.PAA50757@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 13 May 2000 at 15:16:19 +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > In list.freebsd-chat Pat Lynch wrote: >> its "techhh" ;) >> haven;t you ever read the TeX book? ;) > > Just for the record, me and most of my friends pronounce TeX > like the German "Technik" (sorry, I don't know an English word > that has that sound). > I know it's not correct, but it's much easier for my German > tongue. :-) Based on the TeXbook, that would be correct. > PS: Yes, I've read the TeX book. "It's the 'ch' sound in ... German words like ach". What's the problem? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:40:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C09237BBB9 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:40:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r1.bfm.org [216.127.220.97]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:41:28 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513194018.00898d80@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:40:18 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000514051809.N22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:18 14-05-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >In that case, research in universities should have come to a >standstill by now. It's not "stealing", it's "sharing". University researchers are paid for their work. >Actually they always did well in basic research. Some of the most >important physics this century came from Russia. They didn't >do well technologically because of government-controlled industries >and lack of competition. It was a combination of factors. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:46:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD3A37B516 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:46:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:45:34 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "W Gerald Hicks" , Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:46:40 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfbd3d$ddcbf810$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513193524.00898eb0@mail85.pair.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 16:43 13-05-2000 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > Suppose the patent was granted to Lempel and Ziw, > > But it wasn't. The point, when intelligent people reach agreements, the default is irrelevant. If either side is unhappy with the default, they are free to negotiate a different agreement. A law that said, "unless a contract says otherwise, payment must be made in dimes" would do nothing but irritate people. Every contract would very rapidly say otherwise. You can't simply point to a default and point to a situation where the default wasn't overriden and blame the default for the result. Had Lempel or Ziv wished to retain rights to their developments, they could have easily negotiated that agreement. Had Unisys insisted on having them, it could have put that in their employment contracts unless a law actually prohibited such assignment. A law prohibiting you from doing something you could trivially refuse to do doesn't help you, it just gives you one less thing to bargain about. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:48:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05EA137B9F6 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA18531; Sun, 14 May 2000 03:48:21 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 03:48:20 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514034820.A17455@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <200005140027.RAA17120@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005140027.RAA17120@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 05:27:06PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 05:27:06PM -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > > It is reasonable to argue that today's legal view of copyright -- > > *grossly* extended beyond that envisaged in the 18th century when > > it was created, in many ways -- is in fact detrimental to the society > > in many cases. > > Detrimental to the society, but good for individual freedom (of making > money). Yes, but it would also be great for individual freedom if you could own a physical law you discovered, and charge anyone for things built using it. More money would be made. You could be very rich. It would be great for individual freedom if you could patent mathematical theorems. Why shouldn't you be able to? Is that restriction a Communist ploy? It is a fallacy to assume that capitalism only cares for "individual" and does not care for "society". It is even more patently not the case for democracy, which cares for "society" very much. > That's a core idea from communism. That's also the primary area > where capitalism and communism disagree. > > One can also argue that investing in a tobacco company is detrimental to > the society. Exactly. Capitalism (and democracy) argue that there are individual rights which should not be infringed upon by appeals to the good of society. For instance, the US constitution and the Bill of Rights list many of those rights. The right to intellectual property is *not* such a right historically or legally. It's not like the right for representation in a democracy, for instance, or a right to the freedom of speech. Rather, it was designed and codified as a *privilege* given to an author by the society because the society recognizes that granting this privilege *furthers the society's good*. If you look in the text of the US constitution, it uses similar words to express this idea. If you think that owning a piece of software is *exactly* like owning a piece of furniture, then you'd be hard-pressed to explain why copyright expires while physical ownership doesn't. The fact is, it expires because it is meant to be a temporary privilege. Material ownership shouldn't, and doesn't, expire. The society gives, the society may take away. When copyright was enacted in the US, its expiration was in 14 years after the first publication date. Now it's 70 years after the death of the author. It's like this now because it was made to be so by the society's will, as implemented by the elected Congress, rather than because it's some inalienable right to have exactly this term of copyright. To say that, for instance, reducing the term back would be a Communist act, is, in my opinion, absurd. Stallman would go further and abolish intellectual property altogether. Nor would *that* be a Communist act, and, in fact, it's not at all certain that it would lead to cultural stagnation (those who are sure of that are kindly asked again to explain how the world managed until the 18th century). It would simply enforce a different interpretation of the word "property", whereas Communism would like that word to be abolished altogether. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:48:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E06137BBF6 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:48:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17160; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:48:29 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:48:29 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140048.RAA17160@sharmas.dhs.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514035957.J22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000514035957.J22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > Very well stated. > In fact, Stallman's central point (which he makes repeatedly) is that > the US copyright law was intended to benefit the public, not the > authors. Benefits to authors are only an inducement, not a reward. > He has no problems with such restrictions as long as they benefit the > public; his case is that, with today's extended copyright periods and > new laws and media, they have ceased to do so, and in the case of > software, restrictions on copying benefit nobody. Not true. It benefits Microsoft. > Read, for example, > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/reevaluating-copyright.html > You may or may not agree. But I don't see how anyone can read it > carefully and seriously call Stallman a communist. My reading of all his writings is that software is fundamentally different from all the other materials that get sold in the market. I think a majority of people don't believe in that argument. Moreover, what "can" and "should" be sold is not a theoretical decision. In a capitalistic society, what can be sold, will be sold. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 17:54:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C453537B762 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:54:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17178; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:54:02 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:54:02 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140054.RAA17178@sharmas.dhs.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > > Stallman's idea is that software author has no rights. He produces > something, but it does not belong to him. It belongs to the masses. The > "party" has full control over it. The "party" can even change the license > in the future to whatever it wants, without the author having any say. Just to make sure that everyone understands what you're saying, if you make changes to some "core" GNU software (gcc or emacs), GNU project will not incorporate the code, unless you reassign the copyright to FSF. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18: 1:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3510437BBED for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA17185; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:00:58 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:00:58 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140100.SAA17185@sharmas.dhs.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > Chess games cannot be copyrighted. I don't know if you play chess, > but if you do, you must know that chess games can be works of art, > they can be extremely nontrivial, and contain exhilarating, new > ideas that noone before had thought of. But chess books are copyrightable. If chess players didn't get paid hefty sums of money for making appearances, they'd all be writing chess books to make a living - except for the few, who play for the fun of it. Whatever -ism is being practiced, one needs to have a framework in which people get compensated for their work. I don't think Stallman's "support economy" can support all the programmers out there. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18: 5:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 35D4637BBBE for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:05:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 31705 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 01:04:58 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 14 May 2000 01:04:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 23879 invoked by uid 211); 14 May 2000 01:04:57 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 06:34:57 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam.iisc.ernet.in Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514063457.A23845@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam.iisc.ernet.in, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <200005140054.RAA17178@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005140054.RAA17178@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 05:54:02PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Just to make sure that everyone understands what you're saying, if you make > changes to some "core" GNU software (gcc or emacs), GNU project will > not incorporate the code, unless you reassign the copyright to FSF. But if you absolutely hate that idea, you can fork the code (eg xemacs). You need to assign copyrights to the FSF only if you want your changes to enter the "official", FSF-maintained code. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18: 8: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7901637BBBE for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA19111; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:07:32 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:07:31 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com>; from redprince@redprince.net on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:28:27PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:28:27PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 02:30 14-05-2000 +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > >Chess games cannot be copyrighted. > > A chess player does not create anything. You are sadly mistaken. It's clearly no use to debate this further, however, since you seem to be firmly set in your prejudices. Next, consider crossword puzzles. They can't be copyrighted. They are a result of hard work. > A programmer creates a product. He builds a machine. The fact the machine > is "soft" and easy to duplicate is irrelevant. The program is a program not > because it starts as words in a programming language. The program only > matters because after it is compiled, it is loaded into computer memory and > rewires the circuitry of the computer. It turns a general-purpose machine > into a different machine that now does something it could not do before (I > mean in actualitate, not in potentia). So what? It's still an intellectual, not a physical, object. *It can be copied at will*. That is its feature, not its fault. If every software was a physical machine made of steel that had to be dragged around in order to be used elsewhere, your point would've mattered. As it is, you don't have to drag around a machine made of steel in order to enable me to use your software. Moreover, you can continue using your software even as I am using it too! Isn't that great? > >The law doesn't agree with me here if I copy an article written by > >you instead (even though a chess game might be much more imaginative, > >original and important than an article). Why? Because the state wants > >to give you an incentive to write articles, and is less interested > >to give you an incentive to play chess games. > > No, the state is not giving you an incentive to write articles (I'm talking > about the purpose of the protection), it is recognizing that you own what > you created. That is incorrect. If you owned what you created, the copyright would never expire, like it never does on material objects. You're now advised to read up on history of the idea of copyright. Until you do, it's no use debating since you continue to flatly issue falsehoods. > >Unless you dwell on that, and realize that intellectual property > >is *not* automatically a natural, "God-given" right like material > >property is thought by many to be, you will repeat the same basic > >mistake in your reasoning. Stallman's idea is that intellectual objects > >belong to everyone who cares to use them, > > Software is not intellectual objects, it is a machine. Yes, it is. It can be easily copied without hindering the use of the original object. > And for what it's > worth, I don't believe in God. Nor do I necessarily believe that the > concept of property is "natural." But as long as I live in a society where > everyone else gets paid for his work, I'd like to be paid for mine. Stallman does not have as his goal leaving you broke. > > and the world has been > >living according to *his* idea for thousands of years, excluding > >the last two centuries. > > The world had no concept of anything like software until this century > (assuming we both agree we still are in the 20th). Software is an intellectual object, like a novel or a symphony. > >Why should you be able to stop me from using something created by > >you, if that act of using it absolutely does not hinder you in any > >way? > > It does hinder me if I work and do not get paid for while I live in a > society I have to pay everyone else for their work. It is a matter of justice. Capitalism is a system in which everyone has to figure how to get paid for his work. For instance, although I might like the idea of going and teaching literature high-school kids right now, I don't really know how to get myself to be paid for this adequately. Thus, I get my money in a different manner. In capitalism, noone is guaranteed any money just because they do some work (although in welfare states, people are guaranteed some money, period, but not because they do any work they themselves choose). > > The situation > >in which I have to pay you in order to copy that poem or that > >source code is *not* "natural": it is specifically designed to > >benefit *you* as the author. > > It is designed to benefit me for my work. Yes, because the work is felt to benefit society. Now, catching butterflies is not generally felt to benefit society (but only felt so when you're working inside a particular academic setting), so if you go and hunt some butterflies now, and do a pretty hard work of it, you won't be guaranteed any payment. Simple, no? > > Which is fine with me (but not with Stallman), > > Which makes him a Communist. No, it does not. > >though I wish you would at least understand that. > > Having spent tens of thousands of dollars to produce soft machinery that I > was not paid and had to go bankrupt several years ago for thanks to the > attitude like yours and Stallman's, I understand. I wish you and Stallman > did, and everyone else who felt he was not hurting me in any way by taking > away product of years of my toil by using it without pay. Neither I, nor (I would assume) Stallman have taken away any product of yours. Please find some better targets for your anger. > >This is not grounded in fact. If I release a piece of software under > >GPL, you are *not* free to change the license; > > I did not say *I* was. Stallman is. The GPL states it covers this or any > FUTURE version of GPL. Stallman can decide to take full property of any and > all software ever released under GPL with its (the software's) engineers > having nothing to say about it. This is incorrect. As the author of software releasing it under GPL, you are free to require that the only version of GPL that applies is the present version. What GPL says is that if you do not specifically do this, later versions will apply. This is not the same as to state, erroneously, that they will always apply and you have no freedom to change that. Moreover, Stallman can *never* decide to take full property of any software you wrote, *no matter what your license is*, until you legally transfer copyright to Stallman. You are severely deluded about GPL. > >*You* are arguing that a programmer should be free to use whatever > >license he wants, and Stallman does *exactly that*. This is what copyleft > >is all about. > > No, Stallman is NOT doing that. Stallman reserves the right to change GPL > at any time without the programmer having anything to say about it. If > Stallman release his OWN software that way, that is his business. That he > reserves the right to change the license to work of other programmers is > not. Especially if, as is generally the case, most of those programmers do > not realize it. The programmers are free to limit the license as they see fit because, after all, it's *their* software and they set the license. The license does provide an ability (by default) of a user to apply later versions, but if you specifically say in your copyright statement that only the present version is valid, that default will not apply. > >> Everyone gives according to his abilities, everyone takes (in theory) > >> according to his needs. > > > >No, Stallman has never (AFAIK) said that. You're putting words in > >his mouth again. > > I did not say he said those specific words. It is the *idea* that he > espouses and preaches vehemently regardless of its wording. No, he has never preached that idea. > >Now you're being paranoid. This "he's lying and hiding his true > >intentions" argument, by the way, is a basic argument of Marxism. > > He has an agenda and is not fully honest about it. After some years of reading what Stallman wrote in many forums and documents, and including some personal communication, I have never noticed him being dishonest about anything on his agenda. In fact, it is well known that his honest about his intentions and agenda have greatly hurt his reputation in the Open Source community and created tensions between him and people such as esr. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18: 9:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBBAE37BBBE for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA17203; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:09:34 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:09:34 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140109.SAA17203@sharmas.dhs.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514011612.B16058@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000514011612.B16058@happy.checkpoint.com> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > > This is grossly anti-historical. At the time many GNU utilities were > written, the original UNIX utilities were not available in source form > freely. You had to buy a UNIX source license. In other words, it's not > like GNU people didn't like the BSD ls(1), they *couldn't* provide > a free-for-use source of ls(1), and had to write their own. > > Of course, there's an easy way for you to prove me wrong. Please point > out to me a GNU replacement of sendmail, perl, or bind. These are > (some of) large free software projects that *were* available for free use > in source form. Surely the GNU people must've rewritten them all to > release them under the GPL? I entered into the UNIX world in early 90s, so I don't know what happened at the early stages of the GNU project. But certainly, there have been many attempts of GNU-fication of existing code on the grounds that it was non-free. Gnome, GPG and Linux to name a few. Also, having GNU code around hasn't stopped duplication of work. Try counting the number of GPL'ed mail clients on http://freshmeat.net/ -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18:11:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE57A37BBBE for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA19139; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:10:46 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:10:46 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514041046.C17455@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <200005140100.SAA17185@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005140100.SAA17185@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:00:58PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:00:58PM -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > > Chess games cannot be copyrighted. I don't know if you play chess, > > but if you do, you must know that chess games can be works of art, > > they can be extremely nontrivial, and contain exhilarating, new > > ideas that noone before had thought of. > > But chess books are copyrightable. Yes, but you can take out the games out of a book and republish them all you want (collections in such cases may be copyrightable under the database law, but individual games are always public domain). That was my point. Players work very hard to play chess and produce games (or composers to create chess compositions) and yet they're not protected by copyright. Anyone can republish. I can go into a bookstore and copy out the games from a chessbook without buying it. How is that? > Whatever -ism is being practiced, one needs to have a framework in > which people get compensated for their work. I don't think Stallman's > "support economy" can support all the programmers out there. Neither do I, and this is one of the reasons I don't like his ideas. However, they are not Communist, they are not Marxist, and they are not without merit. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18:20:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD8937BBF1 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07690; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:20:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:20:37 -0600 To: Anatoly Vorobey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000514012024.A16224@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:20 PM 5/13/2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 10:53:43AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > (Remember, the stated > > purpose of the GPL is to destroy programmers' livelihoods. > >This is one bit of silly nonsense I wish you would stop repeating. Sorry, but this is one point which is indisputable. Stallman himself has said REPEATEDLY, in person and in print, that this is a goal of the GPL. Perhaps you don't know Stallman's history. > > Thus, > > providing truly free alternatives to GNU code is in fact very useful. > >What's very useful is writing new code for people to use. It's not >like there's any lack of goals in that direction. Let's concentrate on >them. Sorry, but not if the code is GPLed. The agenda of the GPL is unethical and should not be supported. --Brett "I am, uh, BillGatus of Borg. Competition is futile. You will be integrated." --Brett Glass (After Jack Rickard) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18:22:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14FF37BBF1 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:22:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07703; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:21:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000513192050.04510500@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:21:55 -0600 To: Ron Rosson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Shopping carts Cc: Kurt Wuensche , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000513082130.A64351@lunatic.oneinsane.net> References: <4.3.1.2.20000512221924.0493f940@localhost> <20000512230032.15094.qmail@web4701.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.1.2.20000512221924.0493f940@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was under the impression that a back door had been found in "minivend." I haven't tried the software myself, though, so I have no first-hand experience. I just thought I'd mention this so that you could be sure before using it. --Brett At 09:21 AM 5/13/2000, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: >Brett, > If you know of a hole in minivend I would really like to know. I know >there are holes in cart32 software is is not the same. > >Yes I did look at BUGTRAQ ;-) > >On Fri, 12 May 2000, Brett Glass was heard blurting out: > > > Check Bugtraq; it's been said that this app has > > back doors. > > > > --Brett > > > > At 05:00 PM 5/12/2000, Kurt Wuensche wrote: > > > > >Has anyone used the mini-vend shopping cart app? > > >If so does it run easily on apache? > > > > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... >The InSaNe One rm -rf * >insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Old age and treachery can always overcome youth and skill. "I am, uh, BillGatus of Borg. Competition is futile. You will be integrated." --Brett Glass (After Jack Rickard) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18:24:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325A737BC0E for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:24:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([200.41.111.216]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAAA10 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:23:02 -0400 Message-ID: <391DFE24.AECFF7F8@asme.org> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:15:16 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005132348.QAA17056@sharmas.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Huh...I went out some time and now I find this thread..heh..we are all subscribed to -chat so I'll cut the CC's from now on. Arun Sharma wrote: > ... > > Are you implying that communism and free speech are antonyms ? I think, > communism and free speech are quite compatible, at least in theory. > In practice they are. If communism enforces the good for the group over the desires of the individuals, evidently there can be no freedom of speech. Both the GPL and Communism are effective in seeing the forrest but neglecting the value of the tree. > Sure, GNU bashing in *BSD groups should be toned down and I think, the > same energies should be redirected towards educating the joe programmer > (is FreeBSD a version of Linux ? type) about the harms that GPL does. > There is no hate implied when I say the GPL sucks..the authors of the code have the best intentions but they are simply misguided. One of our best economists here commented that the fall of communism was actually bad because there was no way now to "measure the oil" behind (compare with) capitalism. I think GNU bashing IS good; it actually encourages people at both camps to write better code. I also think it's prefectly sane to reflect on the license issues. I am a Mechanical Engineer so I can be wrong, but I doubt any University goes over the moral issues behind software and the license issues. Politics is never just red vs. blue, and war for OS supremacy would be too simple if it were only a linux vs M$, type of war. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18:24:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049EA37BC0B for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:24:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([200.41.111.216]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAAA33 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:23:19 -0400 Message-ID: <391E005C.2B57FE3@asme.org> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:24:44 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > [huge SNIP] > > Stallman has never argued, AFAIK, for abolishing *material* property > (which is actually *the* Communist idea; Communism as an ideology > is rather indifferent to intellectual property and its special status); > he has never argued against democracy, or capitalism, or free market, > or any other Western capitalist ideal. He has argued against > intellectual property, in particular its restrictions in software; and > that is a radical and doubtable idea, but to claim it's Communist is > to make a fool of oneself, IMHO. > Just wanted to make this clear: I don't claim that RMS is a communist. It is clear, though, that a reasonable parallel between with his ideas and communism can be drawn, and that nothing that he has said would indicate that he is not a communist. Being a communist is not a crime either. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18:25: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9663337B88C for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA19262; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:24:38 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:24:38 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514042438.A19230@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000514011612.B16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <200005140109.SAA17203@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005140109.SAA17203@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:09:34PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 06:09:34PM -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > > Of course, there's an easy way for you to prove me wrong. Please point > > out to me a GNU replacement of sendmail, perl, or bind. These are > > (some of) large free software projects that *were* available for free use > > in source form. Surely the GNU people must've rewritten them all to > > release them under the GPL? > > I entered into the UNIX world in early 90s, so I don't know what happened > at the early stages of the GNU project. > > But certainly, there have been many attempts of GNU-fication of > existing code on the grounds that it was non-free. Gnome, GPG and Linux > to name a few. Well, yes, of course. The whole GNU project started because existing code (UNIX) was non-free. Noone would argue with that. The point I debated was that much of GNU code was created to counter code which was *free*, *but* non-GNU. I explained why this doesn't apply to things like fileutils, and to just about any old-time GNU code. Now take your example: Gnome was started (apart from other reasons) because the Qt license was decidedly non-free for commercial use. I.e. it wasn't just non-GNU, it wouldn't qualify for inclusion into FreeBSD as well. GPG was started because of similar potential problems with pgp. Linux was started because there weren't any free UNIX kernels for i386 architecture. > Also, having GNU code around hasn't stopped duplication of work. Try > counting the number of GPL'ed mail clients on http://freshmeat.net/ Well, what's so bad about that? -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18:26:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE6137B518 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:26:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA19346; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:26:02 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:26:02 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514042602.A19316@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <20000514012024.A16224@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:20:37PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:20:37PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:20 PM 5/13/2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > >On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 10:53:43AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > (Remember, the stated > > > purpose of the GPL is to destroy programmers' livelihoods. > > > >This is one bit of silly nonsense I wish you would stop repeating. > > Sorry, but this is one point which is indisputable. Stallman himself > has said REPEATEDLY, in person and in print, that this is a goal > of the GPL. Then maybe you can cite something. > Perhaps you don't know Stallman's history. Perhaps I do, but am not blinded by hatred. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18:29: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C41037B518 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:29:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0934E182; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:29:02 -0700 From: Chris Piazza To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000513182902.B7740@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i-jp0 In-Reply-To: <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 08:56:11PM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 08:56:11PM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > The comparison is not unreasonable, it even is healthy..look in the > > archives, I worte something about this for the Daemonnews some time ago. > > OTOH, you don't need to agree with their license if you only execute the > > binaries, without redistribution and without looking at the source. > > It's a strange sort of communist who insists on free speech all the > time. I suggest you read some books on what communism(read: socialism) really is. -Chris -- cpiazza@jaxon.net | yawn..... cpiazza@FreeBSD.org | Abbotsford, BC, Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 18:43:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8EA337BBF1 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 18:43:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07913; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:43:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000513193601.0406a500@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:42:59 -0600 To: Anatoly Vorobey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000514042602.A19316@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <20000514012024.A16224@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:26 PM 5/13/2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > Sorry, but this is one point which is indisputable. Stallman himself > > has said REPEATEDLY, in person and in print, that this is a goal > > of the GPL. > >Then maybe you can cite something. Easily. (You must be unfamiliar with the writings or speeches of Richard Stallman if you canot cite examples yourself.) In "The GNU Manifesto" (interesting that he'd choose that name), at http://www.fsf.org/gnu/manifesto.html, Stallman writes: >For more than ten years, many of the world's best programmers worked at the Artificial Intelligence Lab for far less money than they could have had anywhere else. They got many kinds of non-monetary rewards: fame and appreciation, for example. And creativity is also fun, a reward in itself. > >Then most of them left when offered a chance to do the same interesting work for a lot of money. > >What the facts show is that people will program for reasons other than riches; but if given a chance to make a lot of money as well, they will come to expect and demand it. Low-paying organizations do poorly in competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the high-paying ones are banned. Which is what Stallman advocates: banning commercial software and commercial software companies. The stated purpose of the GPL is to destroy all programming jobs which pay better than what is earned by a starving graduate student or researcher. > > Perhaps you don't know Stallman's history. > >Perhaps I do, but am not blinded by hatred. It is Stallman, alas, who is blinded by hatred. Unfortunately, many of the people who stamp the GPL on their code do so because Stallman has deceived them into believing his aims are noble, when in fact he is enlisting them in a personal vendetta. --Brett Glass "I am, uh, BillGatus of Borg. Competition is futile. You will be integrated." --Brett Glass (After Jack Rickard) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 19:14:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA55937B8FA for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:14:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 32278 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 02:14:36 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 14 May 2000 02:14:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 24084 invoked by uid 211); 14 May 2000 02:14:34 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 07:44:34 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514074433.A23997@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <20000514012024.A16224@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost> <20000514042602.A19316@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513193601.0406a500@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000513193601.0406a500@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:42:59PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Sorry, but this is one point which is indisputable. Stallman > > > himself has said REPEATEDLY, in person and in print, that this > > > is a goal of the GPL. > > > >Then maybe you can cite something. > > Easily. (You must be unfamiliar with the writings or speeches of > Richard Stallman if you canot cite examples yourself.) In "The GNU > Manifesto" (interesting that he'd choose that name), at > > http://www.fsf.org/gnu/manifesto.html, > > Stallman writes: > > >For more than ten years, many of the world's best programmers > >worked at the Artificial Intelligence Lab for far less money than > >they could have had anywhere else. They got many kinds of > >non-monetary rewards: fame and appreciation, for example. And > >creativity is also fun, a reward in itself. > > > >Then most of them left when offered a chance to do the same > >interesting work for a lot of money. > > > >What the facts show is that people will program for reasons other > >than riches; but if given a chance to make a lot of money as well, > >they will come to expect and demand it. Low-paying organizations do > >poorly in competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have > >to do badly if the high-paying ones are banned. So what he's saying is that you can live comfortably without proprietary software, but can't make money on the same scale you can with proprietary software. Which is pretty obvious. Where does he say he wants to "destroy programmers' livelihoods"? FWIW, the "banning" refers to commercial restrictions, not commercial activities. > Which is what Stallman advocates: banning commercial software and > commercial software companies. The stated purpose of the GPL is to > destroy all programming jobs which pay better than what is earned by > a starving graduate student or researcher. I don't know any starving researchers or grad students. Even the ones in India are pretty well off, if not on the same scale as programmers, and pay in the US is an order of magnitude more. Besides, a lot of free software developers make a lot of money by consulting -- even in the BSD world, I believe. Being a software developer doesn't give you a natural right to make unlimited amounts of money. If you're good you'll make money anyway. Maybe it's hard to believe that in a GPL-dominated world all today's programmers will find jobs, but I find it harder to believe that there will be a greatly reduced demand for programmers. And where there is demand there will be pay. All those thousands of H1B visa holders won't have to return to their home countries simply because you can copy software from your neighbour. The work won't consist of writing MS Office 2010, because that's not where the demand for qualified programmers is today. So the MS bottomline may suffer but programmers' livelihoods won't. Programmers have a great advantage over people like physicists and mathematicians: they can do work which is directly to ordinary people, and so get paid outside of places like universities or specialised research labs. Since you're into quoting Stallman, how about these quotes from the same source? (I know, don't feed the trolls. But people on the list who don't yet have a fixed opinion may find it interesting. From the same source.) "Shouldn't a programmer be able to ask for a reward for his creativity?" There is nothing wrong with wanting pay for work, or seeking to maximize one's income, as long as one does not use means that are destructive. But the means customary in the field of software today are based on destruction. "Won't programmers starve?" I could answer that nobody is forced to be a programmer. Most of us cannot manage to get any money for standing on the street and making faces. But we are not, as a result, condemned to spend our lives standing on the street making faces, and starving. We do something else. But that is the wrong answer because it accepts the questioner's implicit assumption: that without ownership of software, programmers cannot possibly be paid a cent. Supposedly it is all or nothing. The real reason programmers will not starve is that it will still be possible for them to get paid for programming; just not paid as much as now. Restricting copying is not the only basis for business in software. It is the most common basis because it brings in the most money. If it were prohibited, or rejected by the customer, software business would move to other bases of organization which are now used less often. There are always numerous ways to organize any kind of business. Probably programming will not be as lucrative on the new basis as it is now. But that is not an argument against the change. It is not considered an injustice that sales clerks make the salaries that they now do. If programmers made the same, that would not be an injustice either. (In practice they would still make considerably more than that.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 19:31:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E740137BC0A for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17298; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:31:00 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:31:00 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140231.TAA17298@sharmas.dhs.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514051809.N22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com> <20000514051809.N22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > G. Adam Stanislav said on May 13, 2000 at 18:14:15: > > At 04:18 14-05-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >by borrowing ideas you don't decrease the number of ideas > > >in the world. > > > > Sure you do! If you expect your ideas to be stolen with no rewards to you, > > soon you will stop coming up with new ideas. Not because you lost your > > ability but because you have no motivation. > > In that case, research in universities should have come to a > standstill by now. It's not "stealing", it's "sharing". I find it ironic that American universities are doing great using the wealth that was created by "not sharing" some key marketable technologies with the rest of the world. If you look at most of the research these days, it's more and more funded by the industry and people think about jobs when they select their theses. A lot of people see research as a great tool to leap frog their colleagues in the company org chart. Again, arguing either extremes ((a) love of technology or (b) greed alone result in innovation) is hard. Everything can not be seen in black and white. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 19:38:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id B44A137BC15; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:38:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: redprince@redprince.net Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, giffunip@asme.org, grasshacker@linkfast.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000513162448.00894a70@mail85.pair.com> (redprince@redprince.net) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000514023843.B44A137BC15@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > At 02:16 14-05-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >Communism is about state control and restricting individual freedom -- > >originally in economic matters, like manufacturing and so on, but > >in practice in everything including speech and expression. The theory > >is that individuals are selfish so the state has to tell them what to > >do. > > Rahul, > > You have some theoretical ideas about Communism, but clearly no direct > experience. We have no common ground for any further discussion. > > Adam Adam, Please read Hannah Arendt's books on totaliarianism. that was the system that you lived under in eastern europe regardless of what the government called it. nearly every country in the world calls itself a democracy or a republic these days. yet i would venture the the number of democracies or republics does not exceed fifty. Egypt is an excellent example of this. before every "election", the opposition is outlawed and in part jailed. once the "election" is safely concluded, opposition is legallized once again. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 19:51: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 1C21637BF99; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:51:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: redprince@redprince.net Cc: jhix@mindspring.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000513182440.00892db0@mail85.pair.com> (redprince@redprince.net) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000514025102.1C21637BF99@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Mostly because the patent is rarely granted to the creator of the idea. The > current GIF fiasco is a good example. It is not Lempel and Ziw who hold > patent to Lempel-Ziw. It is Unisys. The fact that it was developed by their > employee should not make them owners of the idea. They did not teach their > employee how to think: They hired him because he already knew how to think. > They may own whatever specific products he was paid to create for them, but > they should have no claim on the algorithms he used. Those should have > remained his. > > Adam > many companies require their employees to sign an employee agreement that grants all patent rights to the employer. some of these agreements require the employer to pay the employee $1 (one dollar) for the patent rights. standard corporate lawyering includes the adoption of these agreements as a standard company policy. those that do not agree are encouraged to seek employment elsewhere. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 19:55:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9550C37BA7B for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:55:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17321; Sat, 13 May 2000 19:55:05 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:55:05 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140255.TAA17321@sharmas.dhs.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514074433.A23997@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <20000514012024.A16224@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost> <20000514042602.A19316@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513193601.0406a500@localhost> <20000514074433.A23997@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > > So what he's saying is that you can live comfortably without > proprietary software, but can't make money on the same scale you > can with proprietary software. Which is pretty obvious. Where > does he say he wants to "destroy programmers' livelihoods"? FWIW, > the "banning" refers to commercial restrictions, not commercial > activities. > The moment, somebody tries to define terms "comfortably", "enough money", "inappropriate amounts of money", they're not talking about freedom any more. > Maybe it's hard to believe that in a GPL-dominated world all today's > programmers will find jobs, but I find it harder to believe that there > will be a greatly reduced demand for programmers. And where there is > demand there will be pay. All those thousands of H1B visa holders > won't have to return to their home countries simply because you can > copy software from your neighbour. ZDnet already addressed this in a recent story. The sentence was something like: Who needs all these H1-Bs, when there are open source programmers ? There's tons of custom programming going around - but how much of it is released under GPL ? Most fortune 500 companies (where the wealth is), will not consciously employ programmers to write GPL'ed code. Also, if you look at the silicon valley, it basically lives on the promise of making "inappropriate amounts of money" some day. You take out that promise and there is no difference between Santa Clara, CA and some little town in Nebraska. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20: 1:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8731F37BC2D for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:01:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 32697 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 03:01:29 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 14 May 2000 03:01:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 24286 invoked by uid 211); 14 May 2000 03:01:28 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:31:28 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam.iisc.ernet.in Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514083128.A24281@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <20000514012024.A16224@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost> <20000514042602.A19316@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513193601.0406a500@localhost> <20000514074433.A23997@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005140255.TAA17321@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005140255.TAA17321@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:55:05PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The moment, somebody tries to define terms "comfortably", "enough money", > "inappropriate amounts of money", they're not talking about freedom any > more. Not everything can be free. If everyone is to be free to do some things, everyone must be restricted from some other things. Maybe I'm doing this just to be annoying, but let me quote RMS again (from memory): "My freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20:10:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 466BF37BC3D; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:10:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <200005140255.TAA17321@sharmas.dhs.org> (message from Arun Sharma on Sat, 13 May 2000 19:55:05 -0700) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000514031012.466BF37BC3D@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Also, if you look at the silicon valley, it basically lives on the promise > of making "inappropriate amounts of money" some day. You take out that > promise and there is no difference between Santa Clara, CA and some little > town in Nebraska. > > -Arun > boggle! have you ever been to Nebraska? the bay, the ocean and the climate are somewhat more than "no difference". ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20:14:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com [24.6.21.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9C637BA7B for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:14:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA61771 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:13:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:13:43 -0500 (CDT) Organization: @Home Network From: Conrad Sabatier To: chat@freebsd.org Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Subject: Yowza! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just went out and plunked down today for a nice new ***1000 MHz*** machine. Yes, that's right; you read right: one _GIGA_Hertz! An AMD Athlon, to be precise. With 256 MB RAM as well. Un-effin'-believable. I built the entire XFree86 source (including aout libs) in just a few minutes. *THIS* is the way to do FreeBSD! :-) Conrad "This must be what heaven is like" Sabatier ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Conrad Sabatier Date: 13-May-00 Time: 17:09:50 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20:20:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F4437B9D1 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:20:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA17469; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:20:00 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:20:00 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140320.UAA17469@sharmas.dhs.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514083128.A24281@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <4.3.1.2.20000513100518.0444c390@localhost> <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <20000514012024.A16224@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost> <20000514042602.A19316@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513193601.0406a500@localhost> <20000514074433.A23997@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005140255.TAA17321@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000514083128.A24281@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > Not everything can be free. If everyone is to be free to do some > things, everyone must be restricted from some other things. Maybe I'm > doing this just to be annoying, but let me quote RMS again (from > memory): > "My freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins." Funny, I'm repeating the same argument the second time in the last 3 months. (Last time it was a linux mailing list) Swinging the fist to hit the nose is a crime. Selling software is not. People made assault a crime because if it is permitted, a society can not live together peacefully. The world is full of examples of societies where selling software is permitted, without disturbing the peace and prosperity of the society. I believe that selling software is not a crime. Stallman thinks it should be. That's the problem. The argument that extremists are necessary for the open source idea to be noticed, is an interesting one. I'm not quite convinced that that's the best way to make open source popular. The sword cuts both ways. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20:26:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5594437B871 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (p239.usr.linkfast.net [208.170.100.239]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id EB31C9B10 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:26:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00d915e2476e$bba014a0$ef64aad0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000513182902.B7740@norn.ca.eu.org> Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Mon, 1 Jan 6598 01:34:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 08:56:11PM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > The comparison is not unreasonable, it even is healthy..look in the > > > archives, I worte something about this for the Daemonnews some time ago. > > > OTOH, you don't need to agree with their license if you only execute the > > > binaries, without redistribution and without looking at the source. > > > > It's a strange sort of communist who insists on free speech all the > > time. > > I suggest you read some books on what communism(read: socialism) really is. Communism and Socialism are two very different things. Dan > > -Chris > -- > cpiazza@jaxon.net | yawn..... > cpiazza@FreeBSD.org | Abbotsford, BC, Canada > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20:28:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A15237B871 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:28:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e4E40mB01063; Sat, 13 May 2000 21:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:00:48 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yowza! Message-ID: <20000513210048.L28383@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from conrads@home.com on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 05:13:43PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Conrad Sabatier [000513 20:47] wrote: > Just went out and plunked down today for a nice new ***1000 MHz*** machine. > Yes, that's right; you read right: one _GIGA_Hertz! An AMD Athlon, to be > precise. With 256 MB RAM as well. > > Un-effin'-believable. I built the entire XFree86 source (including aout libs) > in just a few minutes. > > *THIS* is the way to do FreeBSD! :-) *drool* ok... how much did this baby cost you? :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20:30:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kris.huntsvilleal.com (kris.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2CF37BA33 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kris.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06743; Sat, 13 May 2000 21:32:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 21:32:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Conrad Sabatier , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yowza! In-Reply-To: <20000513210048.L28383@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > * Conrad Sabatier [000513 20:47] wrote: > > Just went out and plunked down today for a nice new ***1000 MHz*** machine. > > Yes, that's right; you read right: one _GIGA_Hertz! An AMD Athlon, to be > > precise. With 256 MB RAM as well. > > > > Un-effin'-believable. I built the entire XFree86 source (including aout libs) > > in just a few minutes. > > > > *THIS* is the way to do FreeBSD! :-) > > *drool* ok... how much did this baby cost you? It a new-style proc or old style? Old-style is external SRAM; new style is everything in one chip. I understand if you remove the case you void the warranty.... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20:46:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com [24.6.21.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3605437BC50 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA02443; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:45:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000513210048.L28383@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:45:31 -0500 (CDT) Organization: @Home Network From: Conrad Sabatier To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: Yowza! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-May-00 Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Conrad Sabatier [000513 20:47] wrote: >> Just went out and plunked down today for a nice new ***1000 MHz*** machine. >> Yes, that's right; you read right: one _GIGA_Hertz! An AMD Athlon, to be >> precise. With 256 MB RAM as well. >> >> Un-effin'-believable. I built the entire XFree86 source (including aout >> libs) >> in just a few minutes. >> >> *THIS* is the way to do FreeBSD! :-) > > *drool* ok... how much did this baby cost you? > >:) > > -Alfred Oh, it was "only" about $2800. :-) Best money I ever spent, though. I am one happy camper, boy! :-) ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Conrad Sabatier Date: 13-May-00 Time: 17:44:45 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20:47:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com [24.6.21.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD1F837B871 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:47:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA02446; Sat, 13 May 2000 17:46:47 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:46:47 -0500 (CDT) Organization: @Home Network From: Conrad Sabatier To: Kris Kirby Subject: Re: Yowza! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alfred Perlstein Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-May-00 Kris Kirby wrote: >> * Conrad Sabatier [000513 20:47] wrote: >> > Just went out and plunked down today for a nice new ***1000 MHz*** >> > machine. >> > Yes, that's right; you read right: one _GIGA_Hertz! An AMD Athlon, to be >> > precise. With 256 MB RAM as well. >> > >> > Un-effin'-believable. I built the entire XFree86 source (including aout >> > libs) >> > in just a few minutes. >> > >> > *THIS* is the way to do FreeBSD! :-) >> >> *drool* ok... how much did this baby cost you? > > It a new-style proc or old style? Old-style is external SRAM; new style is > everything in one chip. I understand if you remove the case you void the > warranty.... Hmmm...not sure. I'll have to get back to you on that. :-) How would one tell the difference? ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Conrad Sabatier Date: 13-May-00 Time: 17:46:13 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 20:53:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C7D37B871 for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 20:53:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r5.bfm.org [216.127.220.101]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:54:39 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000513225331.0089d150@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:53:31 -0500 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000514025102.1C21637BF99@hub.freebsd.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513182440.00892db0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 19:51 13-05-2000 -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > standard corporate lawyering includes the adoption of these >agreements as a standard company policy. those that do not agree are >encouraged to seek employment elsewhere. Which is why I work as a nursing assistant. I was not willing to sign my brains away and was subsequently "laid off" and could not get another programming job anywhere in Pittsburgh (where I lived at the time). All that after three major computer industry employment agencies felt sure they'd have no way finding an excellent job for a programmer with my experience. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 21:12: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kris.huntsvilleal.com (kris.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255AC37BC0F for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 21:11:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kris.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15131; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:13:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:13:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: Yowza! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It a new-style proc or old style? Old-style is external SRAM; new style is > > everything in one chip. I understand if you remove the case you void the > > warranty.... > > Hmmm...not sure. I'll have to get back to you on that. :-) > > How would one tell the difference? I think you have to see if it has SRAMs or not. Does it have the part number on the outside? Something like 100042xx1050DEA or something? DEA is a .18 micron chip (the one with L2 in it), everything else (BBA/BCA) is the other one (.25 micron, IIRC.) If you find the part numbers on the top of the proc, I might be able to tell you more. I can also tell you where your processor was physically build (the module) if the serial number ends with 1, 2, 3, or 4. :-) (Oops. I work there.) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 21:24:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC3737B52E for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 21:24:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08968; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:23:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000513222131.04510710@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:23:54 -0600 To: Kris Kirby , Conrad Sabatier From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Yowza! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alfred Perlstein In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I seem to remember reading that the L2 cache is in the module but still not on the die in the latest 1 GHz chips. I'm waiting for them to get it on the die so that it can run at full CPU speed! They'll have to do this to stay competitive with Intel. Once they do, their chips will really howl. --Brett At 09:13 PM 5/13/2000, Kris Kirby wrote: >I think you have to see if it has SRAMs or not. Does it have the part >number on the outside? Something like 100042xx1050DEA or something? DEA is >a .18 micron chip (the one with L2 in it), everything else (BBA/BCA) is >the other one (.25 micron, IIRC.) If you find the part numbers on the top >of the proc, I might be able to tell you more. I can also tell you where >your processor was physically build (the module) if the serial number ends >with 1, 2, 3, or 4. :-) > >(Oops. I work there.) >----- >Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > | >------------------------------------------------------- If nothing else, the brain is an educational toy. -- Tom Robbins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 21:43:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kris.huntsvilleal.com (kris.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B1137B52E for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 21:43:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kris.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21402; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:44:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:44:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Brett Glass Cc: Conrad Sabatier , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: Yowza! In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000513222131.04510710@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I seem to remember reading that the L2 cache is in the module but > still not on the die in the latest 1 GHz chips. I don't think we have 1GHz chips in stock at the moment. We're "back-building" 650-700-750-800 as necessary. I'll get some info tomorrow and post some definite answers. I think that the current 1GHz processors will be with external L2. In reference to overclockers, the processor itself is stamped: "K7(speed)(extention)". Speed is 700, 750, etc. Extension is usually BBA or BCA. Both are functionally the same, but carry different parts on different boards. The board is built to match the processor. All new-style modules (L2 inside) end in "DEA". I can tell you things you can only see with that stupid plastic cover off... :-) > I'm waiting for them to get it on the die so that it can run at > full CPU speed! They'll have to do this to stay competitive with > Intel. Once they do, their chips will really howl. Part of the equation that lets us build them so quickly is that they can test out so quickly. A 900 MHz machine does start NT in a hurry. (Which they are tested under). ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 22:16:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B901537B8FA for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 33817 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 05:15:55 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 14 May 2000 05:15:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 28501 invoked by uid 211); 14 May 2000 05:15:53 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:45:53 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514104553.A28453@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com> <20000514051809.N22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513194018.00898d80@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513194018.00898d80@mail85.pair.com>; from redprince@redprince.net on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:40:18PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's interesting that shortly after this free-software argument, I find an article by John Perry Barlow (Grateful Dead lyricist and EFF co-founder) giving his opinion about Napster and copying of music: http://technocrat.net/958163435 In particular, I think this quote could apply equally to the software industry. While scarcity may increase the value of physical goods, such as CD's, the opposite applies to information. In a dematerialized information economy, there is an equally strong relationship between familiarity and value. If your work is good, allowing what you've done to self-replicate freely increases demand for what you haven't done yet... -R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 22:28:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BD76D37B8FA for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 16544 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 05:28:49 -0000 Received: from du38.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.38) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 14 May 2000 05:28:49 -0000 Message-ID: <391E28F8.EB2C7028@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:18:00 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > Chess games cannot be copyrighted. I don't know if you play chess, > but if you do, you must know that chess games can be works of art, > they can be extremely nontrivial, and contain exhilarating, new > ideas that noone before had thought of. > > And yet, if you publish a game that you played, everyone is legally > and morally free to republish it however he wants, without paying you > a dime. Why? Because chess games are not intellectual property. A real game possibly can't be copyright, but an account or description of a game certainly can be. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 22:28:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2976237BCEB for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:28:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 16657 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 05:28:51 -0000 Received: from du38.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.38) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 14 May 2000 05:28:51 -0000 Message-ID: <391E2C5B.D4EFB077@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:32:27 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > The > > > "party" has full control over it. The "party" can even change the license > > > in the future to whatever it wants, without the author having any say. > > > > This is not grounded in fact. If I release a piece of software under > > GPL, you are *not* free to change the license; in fact, this lack of > > freedom is what is so aggravating about GPL to BSD people in the first > > place! What are you smoking? > > I think he's referring to the "copying" file distributed with many > GPL software, saying that you may distribute it under the GPL version 2, > or "at your discretion, any later version". That is a choice of the > author, who apparently trusts the FSF not to make undesirable changes > to the GPL, but it is not necessary. It is not the choice of the author, but rather the choice of the user. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 22:29: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7631037BCEB for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 22:29:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 16458 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 05:28:47 -0000 Received: from du38.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.38) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 14 May 2000 05:28:47 -0000 Message-ID: <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:13:17 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:28:27PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > At 02:30 14-05-2000 +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > >Chess games cannot be copyrighted. > > > > A chess player does not create anything. > > You are sadly mistaken. It's clearly no use to debate this further, > however, since you seem to be firmly set in your prejudices. > > Next, consider crossword puzzles. They can't be copyrighted. They > are a result of hard work. Do you have a citation in support of this proposition? I have certainly seen copyright notices on collections of puzzles. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 23:12:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F266A37BC9C for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 23:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA17820; Sat, 13 May 2000 23:12:12 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:12:12 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005140612.XAA17820@sharmas.dhs.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514104553.A28453@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com> <20000514051809.N22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513194018.00898d80@mail85.pair.com> <20000514104553.A28453@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > It's interesting that shortly after this free-software argument, I > find an article by John Perry Barlow (Grateful Dead lyricist and EFF > co-founder) giving his opinion about Napster and copying of music: > http://technocrat.net/958163435 > In particular, I think this quote could apply equally to the software > industry. > > While scarcity may increase the value of physical > goods, such as CD's, the opposite applies to information. In a > dematerialized information economy, there is an equally strong > relationship between familiarity and value. If your work is good, > allowing what you've done to self-replicate freely increases demand > for what you haven't done yet... Even Microsoft knows about this. Give away IE to increase demand for other Microsoft software. But in a capitalist economy, free flow of information is not an end in itself - it's the means to an end - generating more revenue. Here's my free speech/freedom argument from a programmer's perspective: Programmers should have unrestricted freedom to pursue material comforts. Giving away software is not incompatible with this freedom. What the BSD's need to do to divert programmer mindshare away from the popular GPL theme, is effective delivery of the above message. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 23:40: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1207337BD4D for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 23:39:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: by techunix.technion.ac.il (Postfix, from userid 14309) id B370F865D; Sun, 14 May 2000 09:39:34 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 09:39:34 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <391E2C5B.D4EFB077@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <391E2C5B.D4EFB077@mail.ptd.net>; from Thomas M. Sommers on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:32:27AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Thomas M. Sommers, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:32:27AM -0400: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > > The > > > > "party" has full control over it. The "party" can even change the license > > > > in the future to whatever it wants, without the author having any say. > > > > > > This is not grounded in fact. If I release a piece of software under > > > GPL, you are *not* free to change the license; in fact, this lack of > > > freedom is what is so aggravating about GPL to BSD people in the first > > > place! What are you smoking? > > > > I think he's referring to the "copying" file distributed with many > > GPL software, saying that you may distribute it under the GPL version 2, > > or "at your discretion, any later version". That is a choice of the > > author, who apparently trusts the FSF not to make undesirable changes > > to the GPL, but it is not necessary. > > It is not the choice of the author, but rather the choice of the user. It is the choice of the author to use the words "GPL version 2 (or any later version) applies to this software" or "GPL version 2, and solely that version, applies to this software", or nothing (which implies the earlier choice). The author has the choice. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 23:43:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449F737BCBB for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 23:43:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id CAA57485; Sun, 14 May 2000 02:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:43:08 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:13:17AM -0400 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Thomas M. Sommers, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:13:17AM -0400: > Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > > On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:28:27PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > At 02:30 14-05-2000 +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > >Chess games cannot be copyrighted. > > > > > > A chess player does not create anything. > > > > You are sadly mistaken. It's clearly no use to debate this further, > > however, since you seem to be firmly set in your prejudices. > > > > Next, consider crossword puzzles. They can't be copyrighted. They > > are a result of hard work. > > Do you have a citation in support of this proposition? I have certainly > seen copyright notices on collections of puzzles. The collections are copyrighted as *collections*, according to the law of database copyright. You can rip off any individual crossword and do with it what you will (you can't do that when the collection is of poems). Sorry, no citation. I am less willing to stake my life on the crosswords issue than on the chess games issue, though, where the fact that individual games can't be copyrighted is used every day by thousands of papers all over the world in their news section, and is well-known inside the community of chess fans and writers, etc. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 23:44:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5FA37B53E for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 23:44:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id CAA57513; Sun, 14 May 2000 02:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:44:15 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514024414.B57423@sasami.jurai.net> References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E28F8.EB2C7028@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <391E28F8.EB2C7028@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:18:00AM -0400 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Thomas M. Sommers, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:18:00AM -0400: > Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > > Chess games cannot be copyrighted. I don't know if you play chess, > > but if you do, you must know that chess games can be works of art, > > they can be extremely nontrivial, and contain exhilarating, new > > ideas that noone before had thought of. > > > > And yet, if you publish a game that you played, everyone is legally > > and morally free to republish it however he wants, without paying you > > a dime. Why? Because chess games are not intellectual property. > > A real game possibly can't be copyright, but an account or description > of a game certainly can be. I know. But why can't a game be copyrighted? Isn't it a result of hard work? Shouldn't the players (or so "that" logic goes) be compensated for their hard work? -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 13 23:55:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B9137BD4D for ; Sat, 13 May 2000 23:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id CAA57675; Sun, 14 May 2000 02:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:55:14 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514025513.C57423@sasami.jurai.net> References: <20000513215350.A6803@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000513104752.0447aa50@localhost> <20000514012024.A16224@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513191658.0451dbb0@localhost> <20000514042602.A19316@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000513193601.0406a500@localhost> <20000514074433.A23997@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005140255.TAA17321@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000514083128.A24281@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005140320.UAA17469@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200005140320.UAA17469@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 08:20:00PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Arun Sharma, were spotted writing this on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 08:20:00PM -0700: > Swinging the fist to hit the nose is a crime. Selling software is > not. People made assault a crime because if it is permitted, a society > can not live together peacefully. The world is full of examples of > societies where selling software is permitted, without disturbing the > peace and prosperity of the society. > > I believe that selling software is not a crime. Stallman thinks it should > be. That's the problem. No, Stallman believes that selling software should not be helped by law by proclaiming software to be property. If something is not encouraged by law it is not necessarily a crime. Stallman has not, in my experience, shown any willingness to forcibly prevent people from trading GPL software, or any software, even in his ideal world. > The argument that extremists are necessary for the open source idea to be > noticed, is an interesting one. I'm not quite convinced that that's > the best way to make open source popular. The sword cuts both ways. Many open source people, such as esr, think Stallman is a nuisance because of his radicalism. They think he scares away business customers. They probably have a point. The popular sentiment in the linux world, however, is with Stallman rather than Raymond, however much Raymond tries to present it otherwise. You see it all the time with their talk about how GPL "protects" them. The simplest testcase is a hypothetical scenario when a commercial entity X takes the software, changes the source, releases it commercially without source. Reaction: BSD people - "glad we could be of use, and you might find it in your interests to give back your code to be maintained by the community"; Linux people - "you stole our code! you filthy whores! give us back our code!" ;) The latter sentiment is what dominates the endless ruminations on slashdot and the like about how GPL protects us from the evil domination of Microsoft. So many, many people appear to be convinced by Stallman without having been brainwashed. Of course, they are all wrong ;) -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message