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Date:      Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:53:23 -0400
From:      Bill Moran <wmoran@potentialtech.com>
To:        Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
Cc:        freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster
Message-ID:  <3F55F253.9090305@potentialtech.com>
In-Reply-To: <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com>
References:  <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180103.0299aaa0@localhost> <3F553FBF.1010208@potentialtech.com> <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com>

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Terry Lambert wrote:
> Bill Moran wrote:
> [ ... Free Code vs. Commercial Interest ... ]
> 
>>Nonsense.  There are a number of companies that are making a go at it
>>with that model.  Look at Adobe with the free Acrobat viewer.  How
>>about MySQL for goodness sakes?  Redhat may not be the richest company
>>in the world, but they're riding out a lousy economy.
> 
> 
> Adobe gives away only the viewer.  They sell the creation tool,
> and they do not give away source code to the viewer.  They guard
> the file format and third party tools via vigorous enforcement
> practices utilizing all tools at their disposal, including the
> DMCA.

See ... to me, that's kind of like saying that
because drunk drivers kill people, nobody should
be allowed to drive.
a) Yes the Adobe model is not exactly the same
   what's being discussed, but it's a similar
   approach.
b) Just because Adobe abused it, doesn't mean
   it can't work.  And it doesn't mean that the
   abuse is necessary to make it work.

> Don't tell me you've forgotten the Skylarov case already.  They
> "backed off", but claimed "our hands are tied", after triggering
> the events leading up to his arrest.  It didn't matter if they
> paid lip-service after pulling the trigger: their bullet was
> already headed inexoriably towards their intended target, and it
> was in their best interests to paint the enforcers of their will
> as the bad guys, instead of themselves.

I'm not familiar with that case, so I can't
discuss it with any intelligence.  Do you feel
that Adobe's business model would have failed
if they had not taken the actions you despise?
I mean, that's the real question of relevence.

> The MySQL people don't exactly sell software, they sell support.
> Like the third generation copy protection schemes on the PC, the
> impetus for the support comes from the inability to fully utilize
> the product without it.  I don't know if you are old enough to
> remember "PC Talk" and "PC Write", etc., but I will tell you what
> I saw the author of the first commercial ShareWare product success
> story say one time at a computer conference:
> 
> 	"Software is all...", he said, making vigorous hand
> 	motions around and above his head, "...is all up
> 	here.  I don't sell software.  I sell manuals".
> 
> This was a really sad thing to have happened.  Because of this
> model, it's very rare to find software which can be used easily
> and intuitively by someone who has never used it before: people
> have been trained by software vendors to expect software to be
> hard to use, non-intuitive, and require training and manuals and
> after-market books to even be able to accomplish very little.  It
> is very like the way Windows users have been trained to feel that
> rebooting your machine is somehow a "solution" to the problem of
> your machine crashing.

I agree.  Microsoft probably makes as much off
books and classes as they do selling software.
And, frankly, despite their whole market slant
of "easy to use", I find that their software is
actually _more_ compliated than other choices,
usually in such a way that it's obvious that it
was intentionally made so.

On the other hand, I've found the MySQL docs to
be very well done, so I'm unsure how you're
applying this issue to them.

<snip>

You have a lot to say about Redhat and GCC that's
well founded, but let me turn the tables on you,
because (to me) this is the meat of the whole
discussion.

How, exactly, am I supposed to pay my bills?

How do you pay yours, Terry?

I started my own business years ago because I
reached a point where I was simply unwilling
to continue working for people who were either
lying, cheating, blankety-blanks, or in control
of my job while being too stupid to ensure
any level of stability (which is terribly
upsetting, because I don't consider myself
all that smart, so trying to accept that the
person who ultimately decides if I'll have a
job next week is stupider than me is a bit
too much)
I don't want to make a gazillion dollars (OK, I
wouldn't mind) I just want to work in conditions
where I don't feel like I'm violating everything
I think is right.
And I believe if Adobe, and people like Adobe,
thought more like me, they could make their
business models work _without_ resorting to
Nazi shock troops.

I suppose it's possible that I'm living in a
dream world.

-- 
Bill Moran
Potential Technologies
http://www.potentialtech.com



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