From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 23 0: 6: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC53A14CE5 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:05:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12069; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:04:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:04:16 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <20000122133716.J391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:37 PM 1/21/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: >You'll get better acceptance of an article on UCITA if you don't >mention any other restrictive licenses. Why mention some restrictive licenses (e.g. the Microsoft EULAs) and not others (e.g. the GPL)? UCITA allows all of them to wreak havoc. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 23 18:57:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id BA4781505C; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0B51CD671; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:57:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:57:13 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jay Nelson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Cross-Compilation (Was Re: IBM (Was: Re: funny repair remark)) In-Reply-To: <200001220101.SAA24201@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Right now, both FreeBSD (especially) and Linux have hosted > cross-compilation issues, having to do with using tools generated > for the target in building the target (instead of using cross-tools > targeted at the target but built for the host for building the > target). This was a matter of much discussion a while back. I believe this is either no longer true, or will be no longer true in the near future. Marcel Moolenaar has been doing a lot of work restructuring the build process to allow cross-compilation. Kris ---- "How many roads must a man walk down, before you call him a man?" "Eight!" "That was a rhetorical question!" "Oh..then, seven!" -- Homer Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 23 20:59:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FAB157E6 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:59:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (j13.ktb6.jaring.my [161.142.234.27]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12854; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:29:25 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA02580; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:25:48 +0800 (MYT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:25:48 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) Message-ID: <20000124112548.D2398@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> <20000122133716.J391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Jan 23, 2000 at 01:04:16AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 23 January 2000 at 1:04:16 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:37 PM 1/21/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >> You'll get better acceptance of an article on UCITA if you don't >> mention any other restrictive licenses. > > Why mention some restrictive licenses (e.g. the Microsoft EULAs) > and not others (e.g. the GPL)? Because you need to keep your audience's attention. Perpetual GNU-bashing will just have a large number of people saying "Oh, Brett's turning this into an anti-GPL diatribe again", and stop reading. This has nothing to do with the relative merits of the topic. Keep your focus on UCITA in an article on UCITA. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 23 22: 2:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449CC158B0 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:02:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA20631; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:02:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:02:02 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <20000124112548.D2398@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> <20000122133716.J391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:25 PM 1/23/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > > Why mention some restrictive licenses (e.g. the Microsoft EULAs) > > and not others (e.g. the GPL)? > >Because you need to keep your audience's attention. Perpetual >GNU-bashing will just have a large number of people saying "Oh, >Brett's turning this into an anti-GPL diatribe again", and stop >reading. Opposing restrictive licenses -- whether they're the Microsoft EULA or the GPL -- isn't "bashing" or a "diatribe." It's good sense. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 24 6:52: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercurio.ie-online.it (dns.ie-online.it [194.133.148.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD161507C for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:52:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sriva@gufi.org) Received: from attila.ie-interna.it (host1.ie-online.it [194.133.148.10]) by mercurio.ie-online.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09479 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:51:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sriva@gufi.org) Received: from riva (riva.ie-interna.it [192.168.0.33]) by attila.ie-interna.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA90952 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:51:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sriva@gufi.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000124155156.0092b550@civetta.gufi.org> X-Sender: riva@civetta.gufi.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:51:56 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Stefano Riva Subject: Prova chat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ehila'. Chi mi riceve? --- Stefano Riva sriva@gufi.org Gruppo Utenti FreeBSD Italiani http://www.gufi.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 24 7: 1: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercurio.ie-online.it (dns.ie-online.it [194.133.148.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C6D14F16; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:58:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sriva@alice.it) Received: from attila.ie-interna.it (host1.ie-online.it [194.133.148.10]) by mercurio.ie-online.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09676; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:58:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sriva@alice.it) Received: from riva (riva.ie-interna.it [192.168.0.33]) by attila.ie-interna.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA91169; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:58:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sriva@alice.it) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000124155851.00ba2800@relay.alice.it> X-Sender: riva@relay.alice.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:58:51 +0100 To: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org From: Stefano Riva Subject: Sorry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry for my previous message. It was simply an error. I need more sleeping. :-) --- Stefano Riva Systems & Network Administrator Informazioni Editoriali I.E. Srl Voice +39-02283151, Fax +39-0228315900 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 24 16:20:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E8A157B0 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.26.207]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOV00BN67GZT8@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:17:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00646; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:54:05 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:54:05 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) In-reply-to: <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost> To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, Greg's right. You write well but preach poorly. Please listen to him. We have a far bigger enemy at our gate than the GPL. -- Jay On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: >At 08:25 PM 1/23/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > Why mention some restrictive licenses (e.g. the Microsoft EULAs) >> > and not others (e.g. the GPL)? >> >>Because you need to keep your audience's attention. Perpetual >>GNU-bashing will just have a large number of people saying "Oh, >>Brett's turning this into an anti-GPL diatribe again", and stop >>reading. > >Opposing restrictive licenses -- whether they're the Microsoft >EULA or the GPL -- isn't "bashing" or a "diatribe." It's >good sense. > >--Brett > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 24 16:20:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A78157A6 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.26.207]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FOV00BN67GZT8@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:17:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00654; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:58:49 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:58:49 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Sorry In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.20000124155851.00ba2800@relay.alice.it> To: Stefano Riva Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I, for one, enjoyed it. I don't speak Italian, but in the US flavor of English, gufi has so many interesting connotations, I'm sorry I didn't think of it as a domain name. What does gufi mean in Italian? -- Jay On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Stefano Riva wrote: > Sorry for my previous message. It was simply an error. I need more >sleeping. :-) > >--- > > Stefano Riva > Systems & Network Administrator > Informazioni Editoriali I.E. Srl > Voice +39-02283151, Fax +39-0228315900 > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 24 16:31:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDB41528C for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:31:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01928; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:15:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGgaqQd; Mon Jan 24 17:15:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA13480; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:15:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200001250015.RAA13480@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: UCITA (Important) To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:15:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 23, 2000 11:02:02 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Why mention some restrictive licenses (e.g. the Microsoft EULAs) > > > and not others (e.g. the GPL)? > > > >Because you need to keep your audience's attention. Perpetual > >GNU-bashing will just have a large number of people saying "Oh, > >Brett's turning this into an anti-GPL diatribe again", and stop > >reading. > > Opposing restrictive licenses -- whether they're the Microsoft > EULA or the GPL -- isn't "bashing" or a "diatribe." It's > good sense. This really depends on whether you primary intent is to discuss UCITA, or whether it's to discuss license issues. Combining both into a single discussion muddies the already muddy water you are trying to filter clear. The moral to this sotry is that you should pick one topic, and all other topics must be subservient to your message about that one topic, or you should throw them out of the list of things under discussion. Of course, you may not want to make a strong point about UCITA... if that's the case, feel free to drown your signal in noise, but expect to reap the results. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 24 18: 3: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D98D14DF3 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:02:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (j24.klt32.jaring.my [161.142.169.158]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13939; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:31:18 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03308; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:48:44 +0800 (MYT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:48:44 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Reaching the reader (was: UCITA (Important)) Message-ID: <20000124164844.J2643@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> <20000122133716.J391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> <20000124112548.D2398@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Jan 23, 2000 at 11:02:02PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 23 January 2000 at 23:02:02 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:25 PM 1/23/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> Why mention some restrictive licenses (e.g. the Microsoft EULAs) >>> and not others (e.g. the GPL)? >> >> Because you need to keep your audience's attention. Perpetual >> GNU-bashing will just have a large number of people saying "Oh, >> Brett's turning this into an anti-GPL diatribe again", and stop >> reading. > > Opposing restrictive licenses -- whether they're the Microsoft > EULA or the GPL -- isn't "bashing" or a "diatribe." It's > good sense. That wasn't the issue, and I'm tired of trying to explain to you things that seem obvious to just about everybody else I speak to, so I'll stop. The real question is "will people read it?". That's not up to you or me: it's up to the readers. Why don't you write your article, and I'll make an edited version and publish it under a fictitious name. Then we look at the number of hits we get on each version. Would that seem a fair indication of how much each version conveys its point? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 24 21:43:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F1015AC6 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:43:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03768; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:42:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000124223555.01bc23a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:42:09 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Reaching the reader (was: UCITA (Important)) Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <20000124164844.J2643@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost> <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> <20000122133716.J391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> <20000124112548.D2398@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:48 AM 1/24/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: >That wasn't the issue, and I'm tired of trying to explain to you >things that seem obvious to just about everybody else I speak to, so >I'll stop. Good. Please do. >The real question is "will people read it?". That's not up to you or >me: it's up to the readers. Why don't you write your article, and >I'll make an edited version and publish it under a fictitious name. >Then we look at the number of hits we get on each version. Would that >seem a fair indication of how much each version conveys its point? Not at all. The hit comes before the reader has had a chance to assess the article. Therefore, this is a poorly designed experiment. As an author with more than 20 years' experience and more than 1,200 published articles and columns, I think I have a fairly good idea of how to reach the reader. With all due respect, I don't think I need your help. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 1:46:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercurio.ie-online.it (dns.ie-online.it [194.133.148.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70BA15076 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sriva@alice.it) Received: from attila.ie-interna.it (host1.ie-online.it [194.133.148.10]) by mercurio.ie-online.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27503 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:46:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sriva@alice.it) Received: from riva (riva.ie-interna.it [192.168.0.33]) by attila.ie-interna.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA30013 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:46:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sriva@alice.it) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000125104643.00958590@relay.alice.it> X-Sender: riva@relay.alice.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:46:43 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Stefano Riva Subject: Re: Sorry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 17.58 24/01/00 -0600, you wrote: >I, for one, enjoyed it. I don't speak Italian, but in the US >flavor of English, gufi has so many interesting connotations, I'm >sorry I didn't think of it as a domain name. What does gufi mean in >Italian? GUFI could be translated as "owls", but in this case stands for "Gruppo Utenti FreeBSD Italiani" ("Italian FreeBSD Users Group"). What are the US connotations? I'm very interested... ;-) --- Stefano Riva Systems & Network Administrator Informazioni Editoriali I.E. Srl Voice +39-02283151, Fax +39-0228315900 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 6:26:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cornflake.nickelkid.com (cornflake.nickelkid.com [216.116.135.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1628D14E64 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:26:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by cornflake.nickelkid.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA57827; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:26:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:26:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Stefano Riva Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000125104643.00958590@relay.alice.it> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Stefano Riva wrote: > GUFI could be translated as "owls", but in this case stands for "Gruppo > Utenti FreeBSD Italiani" ("Italian FreeBSD Users Group"). What are the US > connotations? I'm very interested... ;-) It looks like it's pronounced the same as "goofy" in English, which means "silly." Cheers, Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 7: 7:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercurio.ie-online.it (dns.ie-online.it [194.133.148.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14DF814F32 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sriva@alice.it) Received: from attila.ie-interna.it (host1.ie-online.it [194.133.148.10]) by mercurio.ie-online.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA36320; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:07:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sriva@alice.it) Received: from riva (riva.ie-interna.it [192.168.0.33]) by attila.ie-interna.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA44261; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:07:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sriva@alice.it) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000125160709.00a383a0@relay.alice.it> X-Sender: riva@relay.alice.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:07:09 +0100 To: "Jasper O'Malley" From: Stefano Riva Subject: Re: Sorry Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000125104643.00958590@relay.alice.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09.26 25/01/00 -0500, you wrote: >> GUFI could be translated as "owls", but in this case stands for "Gruppo >> Utenti FreeBSD Italiani" ("Italian FreeBSD Users Group"). What are the US >> connotations? I'm very interested... ;-) >It looks like it's pronounced the same as "goofy" in English, which means >"silly." Well, one could say that "silly" doesn't seems too wrong, given the first message from my account @gufi.org... anyway, I think Goofy is also the original name of a Disney character who I love ("Pippo" here in Italy) and I definitely like this "connotation" more! :-) --- Stefano Riva Systems & Network Administrator Informazioni Editoriali I.E. Srl Voice +39-02283151, Fax +39-0228315900 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 8: 7:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A8A151D5 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:07:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA94135; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:07:34 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:07:34 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: "William A. Maniatty" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Learning the FreeBSD Kernel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, William A. Maniatty wrote: > > I'm probably not quite cool enough to be in on the joke here, but what > > is a dog polisher? > > You use it to polish your dog. > > Since all good dog polishers connect to computers running unix, you need a > device driver to interface with the dog polisher. They don't approve of WinDogPolishers? I am shocked. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 10:41:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.yipinet.com (mail.yipinet.com [216.237.161.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1852115287 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:41:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mightymax@yipinet.com) Received: from minimax ([172.16.1.201]) by mail.yipinet.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA31292 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:38:56 -0800 Message-ID: <001901bf6763$b0820f00$c90110ac@yipinet.com> From: "Max" To: "freebsd-chat" Subject: google.com configuration??? Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:40:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, does anyone know what google's system configuration is? I mean netcraft says that the web server is using linux, but does anyone know how the search engine returns revelant results? Max e. mightymax@yipinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 11:59:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mvfx.com (mvfx-gw.mvfx.com [207.211.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709AA15248 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:59:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mvfx.com) Received: from mobiledan.mvfx.com (mobiledan.mvfx.com [10.62.6.38]) by mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12968 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:59:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mobiledan.mvfx.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mobiledan.mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA29900 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:59:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:59:40 -0800 From: Dan Piponi To: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: google.com configuration??? Message-ID: <20000125115940.A29841@mobiledan.mvfx.com> References: <001901bf6763$b0820f00$c90110ac@yipinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <001901bf6763$b0820f00$c90110ac@yipinet.com>; from mightymax@yipinet.com on Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 10:40:09AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE Organization: can be a good thing Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > but does anyone know how the search > engine returns revelant results? http://www.sciam.com/1999/0699issue/0699raghavan.html -- Dan Piponi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 12:53: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31184151BA for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:52:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id HAA41970; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:22:08 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:22:08 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Reaching the reader (was: UCITA (Important)) Message-ID: <20000126072208.B41924@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> <20000122133716.J391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> <20000124112548.D2398@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost> <20000124164844.J2643@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000124223555.01bc23a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000124223555.01bc23a0@localhost> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 24 January 2000 at 22:42:09 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:48 AM 1/24/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: >> The real question is "will people read it?". That's not up to you or >> me: it's up to the readers. Why don't you write your article, and >> I'll make an edited version and publish it under a fictitious name. >> Then we look at the number of hits we get on each version. Would that >> seem a fair indication of how much each version conveys its point? > > Not at all. The hit comes before the reader has had a chance to > assess the article. Therefore, this is a poorly designed experiment. You're welcome to suggest a better one. > As an author with more than 20 years' experience and more than 1,200 > published articles and columns, I think I have a fairly good idea of > how to reach the reader. I know authors with more than 50 years' experience who are complete failures. Time doesn't equate to ability. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 13:12:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A68153C9 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from workhorse (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11823; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:11:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000125140859.01b3de50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:11:35 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Reaching the reader (was: UCITA (Important)) Cc: freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <20000126072208.B41924@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000124223555.01bc23a0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121141100.019a6370@localhost> <4.2.2.20000121131307.01a32380@localhost> <20000122133716.J391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> <20000124112548.D2398@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost> <20000124164844.J2643@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000124223555.01bc23a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:52 PM 1/25/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: >I know authors with more than 50 years' experience who are complete >failures. You don't look that old. In any event, I've been quite successful, and one of the reasons is that I say what I think and do not pull punches when I critique unethical scams such as the GPL. My readers appreciate and respect that. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 13:22:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96220151D5 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:22:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id HAA42258; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:52:29 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:52:28 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Reaching the reader (was: UCITA (Important)) Message-ID: <20000126075228.A42227@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000122133716.J391@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123010329.01aba360@localhost> <20000124112548.D2398@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000123230049.00d51100@localhost> <20000124164844.J2643@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000124223555.01bc23a0@localhost> <20000126072208.B41924@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000125140859.01b3de50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000125140859.01b3de50@localhost> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 25 January 2000 at 14:11:35 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:52 PM 1/25/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >> I know authors with more than 50 years' experience who are complete >> failures. > > You don't look that old. That's uncharacteristically primitive for you. > In any event, I've been quite successful, and one of the reasons is > that I say what I think and do not pull punches when I critique > unethical scams such as the GPL. My readers appreciate and respect > that. In fact, I have read and admired your work; that's why I suggested that you write the article. But the articles I read didn't go off GNU-bashing. Write articles like the ones I read and I won't have any problems. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 15:19:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.x-treme.gr (mx2.x-treme.gr [212.120.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22AC014D3F for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:19:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat59.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.251]) by mx2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id BAA16706; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:19:04 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA10796; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:18:51 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:18:50 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Stefano Riva Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry Message-ID: <20000126011850.A9122@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <3.0.5.32.20000125104643.00958590@relay.alice.it> <3.0.5.32.20000125160709.00a383a0@relay.alice.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000125160709.00a383a0@relay.alice.it>; from sriva@alice.it on Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:07:09PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E X-Phone-Number: +30-94-6203692, +30-93-2886457 X-Address: Theodorou Kirinaiou 61, 26334 Patra, Greece Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:07:09PM +0100, Stefano Riva wrote: > At 09.26 25/01/00 -0500, you wrote: > > It looks like it's pronounced the same as "goofy" in English, which > > means "silly." > > Well, one could say that "silly" doesn't seems too wrong, given the > first message from my account @gufi.org... anyway, I think Goofy is > also the original name of a Disney character who I love ("Pippo" here > in Italy) and I definitely like this "connotation" more! :-) Yes, with my little Italian, I can assure you that "Goofy" and "Pippo" are exactly the same character. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." [Mark Twain] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 15:21:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.x-treme.gr (mx2.x-treme.gr [212.120.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454F514F02 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:21:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat59.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.251]) by mx2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id BAA16768; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:21:09 +0200 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11237; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:21:10 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:21:10 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: David Scheidt Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , "William A. Maniatty" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Learning the FreeBSD Kernel Message-ID: <20000126012110.B9122@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 10:07:34AM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E X-Phone-Number: +30-94-6203692, +30-93-2886457 X-Address: Theodorou Kirinaiou 61, 26334 Patra, Greece Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 10:07:34AM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > > > Since all good dog polishers connect to computers running unix, you > > need a device driver to interface with the dog polisher. > > They don't approve of WinDogPolishers? I am shocked. I think I've seen one "designed for Windows 95" somewhere. Not that I could put myself under oath for it's truth though. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." [Mark Twain] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 18:30:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts2.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD5F14DEE for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:30:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.nowhere ([216.209.126.157]) by tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.07 201-229-116-107) with ESMTP id <20000126022947.ZFDH26813.tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost.nowhere>; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:29:47 -0500 Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA49979; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:29:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from tim) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:29:45 -0500 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: dillon@apollo.backplane.com, wes@softweyr.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-ID: <20000125212945.A49680@mad> References: <200001251726.JAA04722@apollo.backplane.com> <20000126005528.7DC0314BCF@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <20000126005528.7DC0314BCF@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:55:28PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ -hackers ==> -chat ] On Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:55:28PM -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > I don't know anybody under the age of 30 who knows lisp. And, frankly, > > since both the system and virtually all of its support programs are It's still taught in csc324... Lisp and Prolog. -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 18:59:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts2-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts2.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BA514DB7; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:59:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drkangel@pathcom.com) Received: from bastardos ([216.209.47.45]) by tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.07 201-229-116-107) with SMTP id <20000126025311.FVGS627.tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net@bastardos>; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:53:11 -0500 From: "Marco Paulo Rodrigues" To: , , Subject: pccard problems.. I think Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 21:51:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I just recently installed FreeBSd 3.4 on my Thinkpad 390E. I have an IBM Etherjet 10/100. I read the relnotes and it says the 3.4 kernel has support for it in. I check the pccard.conf.sample and found it. Problem is, or maybe i'm doing something wrong is when I boot and it beings to load the daemons, ie portmap (the rc.386 startups) I get an error from pccardd saying """ not found in card database? I've never configued a laptop for FreeBSD so I don't know if these flags are correct in the rc.conf. I'm using the original pccard.conf.sample just renamed to pccard.conf and here is what I have in my rc.conf as of this moment.. pccard_enable="YES" # Set to YES if you want to configure PCCARD devices. pccard_mem="DEFAULT" # If pccard_enable=YES, this is card memory address. pccard_ifconfig="ed0 192.168.0.4" # Specialized pccard ethernet configuration (or NO). pccardd_flags="" # Additional flags for pccardd. Is there anything i'm missing? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. ---------------------------------- Marco Paulo Rodrigues Pathway Communications Phone : (416) 907-2880 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 22: 9:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A0914F27 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA72904; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200001260608.WAA72904@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Kairetsu In-Reply-To: <199909291723.KAA15997@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Sep 29, 1999 05:23:44 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:08:55 -0800 (PST) Cc: n@nectar.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Our final solutions was to operate as separate, but associated legal > > entities. The ISP is operated as a totally separate legal entity > > from the Carrier business, they do have a possible affiliated status under > > the 47 USC act, but so far the lawyers have keep us clean on that one. > > Heh. You're a "Kairetsu". I finally bothered to go dig out just what this was, it took a while to find this reference that gave me some form of a definition: Mutasa pointed to the role of small to medium enterprises as an engine for growth. In Japan they call this the Kairetsu. It is the hidden wealth creating machine which also abounds in Europe. It is striking to appreciate what the Germans call the Mittlestand The Mittelstand is Germanys conglomeration of small firms creating wealth from exports. These firms are supported by two factors. One a national export infrastructure and two the business orientation (or culture) of small firms. Yes, we are a Kairetsu, and rapidly moving from the ``small'' to the ``medium'' class as enterprises go :-) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 25 22:20:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A2E14CD3 for ; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA72925; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200001260619.WAA72925@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: BCP RFC's for ISP's In-Reply-To: <199909291800.LAA18004@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Sep 29, 1999 06:00:31 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:19:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller), n@nectar.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On Tue, Sep 28, 1999 at 05:58:45PM -0700, a little birdie told me > > that Rodney W. Grimes remarked > > > ... > > > > > Yes, I know there is no RFC or other standards document that says what > > > > > an ISP is and how one must perform. I am merely expressing my opinion > > > > > on the matter. > > > > > > > > Actually, there should be such RFC's. At the very least, it is > > > > a topic ripe for Best Current Practice RFC's. > > > > > > I've been thinking exactly that for the past few days. > > > > FWIW, I think that's an excellent proposal in its own right, even > > independant of this current party-o-fun discussion. > > On that note, please see: > > ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/terry/drafts/draft-lambert-dns-pns-00.txt > ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/terry/drafts/draft-lambert-dns-split-00.txt > ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/terry/drafts/draft-lambert-dns-bsec-00.txt More more more... this is a good start on some good practices but a long long long way from a set of BCP's for ISP's. Oh, and these drafts expire in 2 days time :-(, you need to revise them so they have another 6 months by issuing a -01 version !! -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 6:19:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D42414C01; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:19:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DTIS-000M5Q-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:19:48 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA31532; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:19:43 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:19:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , dillon@apollo.backplane.com, wes@softweyr.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <20000125212945.A49680@mad> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: >[ -hackers ==> -chat ] > >On Tue, Jan 25, 2000 at 04:55:28PM -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >> >> > I don't know anybody under the age of 30 who knows lisp. And, frankly, >> > since both the system and virtually all of its support programs are > >It's still taught in csc324... Lisp and Prolog. I'll be learning intros to both in my Programming Language Concepts course this semester. The prof says Lisp is inefficient on von Neumann machines, and that has limited its popularity. But emacs' use of Lisp intrigues me. It is obviously a very powerful editor, and extensible. I would love to learn more. And i used to have stonybrook prolog for the amiga. It fit on 2 880k floppies! -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 7: 3: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 1AF4014EBD; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:03:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Cc: vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca, dillon@apollo.backplane.com, wes@softweyr.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (message from Jonathon McKitrick on Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:19:43 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-Id: <20000126150303.1AF4014EBD@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:03:03 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'll be learning intros to both in my Programming Language Concepts course > this semester. The prof says Lisp is inefficient on von Neumann machines, > and that has limited its popularity. But emacs' use of Lisp intrigues me. > It is obviously a very powerful editor, and extensible. I would love to > learn more. And i used to have stonybrook prolog for the amiga. It fit > on 2 880k floppies! emacs lisp, and the editor, are huge. there is a FSF book on programming in emacs lisp. all ( is it really all?) emacs operations are lisp functions, so while it might be inefficient, processors are now fast enough to hide the problem from a human of my reaction time. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 7: 8:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970F414A0A; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:08:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DU3P-000D6k-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:08:19 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32326; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:08:19 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:08:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca, dillon@apollo.backplane.com, wes@softweyr.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <20000126150303.1AF4014EBD@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, right now i'm trying to decide if emacs is worth the trouble. I just decided to start using VIM, and i love it. It is very efficient, and does what i need for now. I realize i should probably use Emacs eventually but it seems too much trouble than it is worth for right now. VIM seems so efficient for deletes, copying, search-and-replace, and the like. And VIM has nice syntax highlighting. Plus it loads quickly. The thing that bugs me about emacs is remembering the extra keys- control, alt, meta, escape, etc. It seems easy to mix up C-c and M-c and Alt-c. -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 7:37:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C73414BDA for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:37:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from simoeon (simeon.sentex.ca [209.112.4.47]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA53271 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:37:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000126103533.0105ce40@staff.sentex.ca> X-Sender: mdtpop@staff.sentex.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:35:33 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Sun to release Solaris Source code Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry if its old news, but it was the first I heard of it http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Network Administrator, mike@sentex.net Sentex Communications www.sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 8:31:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 3293B14FEC; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:31:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Cc: vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca, dillon@apollo.backplane.com, wes@softweyr.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (message from Jonathon McKitrick on Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:08:19 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-Id: <20000126163109.3293B14FEC@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:31:09 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, right now i'm trying to decide if emacs is worth the trouble. I just > decided to start using VIM, and i love it. It is very efficient, and does > what i need for now. I realize i should probably use Emacs eventually > but it seems too much trouble than it is worth for right now. VIM > seems so efficient for deletes, copying, search-and-replace, and the like. > And VIM has nice syntax highlighting. Plus it loads quickly. The thing > that bugs me about emacs is remembering the extra keys- control, alt, > meta, escape, etc. It seems easy to mix up C-c and M-c and Alt-c. emacs is heavily dependant upon these kind of control sequences: C-c, M-c etc. if you are happy with VIM, use VIM and be happy. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 9:43:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD56714C9B; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id JAA17110; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:39:00 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA24638; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:38:59 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com [198.206.184.236]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id JAA02894; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:38:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <388F3254.CF5F1C41@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:43:48 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca, dillon@apollo.backplane.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Well, right now i'm trying to decide if emacs is worth the trouble. I just > decided to start using VIM, and i love it. It is very efficient, and does > what i need for now. I realize i should probably use Emacs eventually > but it seems too much trouble than it is worth for right now. VIM > seems so efficient for deletes, copying, search-and-replace, and the like. > And VIM has nice syntax highlighting. Plus it loads quickly. The thing > that bugs me about emacs is remembering the extra keys- control, alt, > meta, escape, etc. It seems easy to mix up C-c and M-c and Alt-c. It depends on what you're doing. If you make large, complicated changes, or large, complicated programs, Emacs can help you manage that complexity. It's ability to hold numerous source files open in buffers, to move back and forth between the buffers, and to assist you in keyword searches in the source, are quite valuable. When I first decided to learn Emacs, I was starting a brand new project. I bought the O'Reilly "Learning GNU Emacs" book and promised I would give Emacs two weeks, then decide if I wanted to go back to vi and multiple xterms. Hah! At the end of two weeks I was reading mail in Emacs, using vmail mode. Any decision was made on the third day when I learned how to create a TAGS file and do tags-searches within Emacs. Two days later learning about Emacs built-in support for RCS and CVS really put the nail in vi's coffin. As for load time, you haven't quite grokked the Emacs philosophy. You don't load Emacs to edit a file; you load Emacs when you login, so it's always available when you need to edit a file. If you want a command-line editor, start the Emacs server in your .emacs file and set your EDITOR to emacsclient. It took you years to learn vi; you should give Emacs a serious try before you write it off. I think it highly likely it will increase your productivity in many common programming tasks. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 9:43:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4DA1528F for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:43:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10653; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:43:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:43:10 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux-Expo next month In-Reply-To: <200001211621.LAA09255@bg-tc-ppp840.monmouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: > Anyone going to be at Linux Expo in NY. I'm trying to figure what day > to make it to the show -- and I'm wondering if there will be a FreeBSD > BOF somewhere somehow? > Bill, see http://www.bsdunix.net there will be a BoF and possibly food after? the details are on that web page. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 9:45:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22FB150FD for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:45:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10690; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:45:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:45:44 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux-Expo next month In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000121110945.01a69c30@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > P.S. -- Like your sig. I wonder how much overlap there is between > the FreeBSD and filk communities.... > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >bpechter@monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org|pechter@pechter.bsdonline.org > > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. Actually, I liked the sig for a different reason, its the standard format for a celtic triad. I have one too: "Three Things which a successful Systems Admin must have: "a quick wit, quick hands, and a quick connection" - A Modern Technical Triad -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 9:48:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076E0151B1; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:48:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DWYP-00010K-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:48:29 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA34809; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:48:29 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:48:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Wes Peters Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca, dillon@apollo.backplane.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <388F3254.CF5F1C41@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey Wes, nice to hear from you. :-) Actually, i just started learning VI, so maybe i'll try both at the same time. However, i haven't quite reached that level yet of being an advanced programmer. So, many of Emacs features will be lost on me. But, it is certainly worth a try, since someday i may need it. Yes, it makes more sense like you said to start a session at login and use it throughout the session. Maybe if i buy that book it will give me incentive. Do you use emacs, Xemacs, or some derivative? Version 19 or 20? -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 10:41: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABC314E8D for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:41:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12DXNF-0001sa-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:41:01 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA35619 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:41:01 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:41:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: getting rid of windows... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am very close to getting rid of windows entirely, and i wanted to get some opinions. I have a laptop with a 4 gig drive, split evenly with FreeBSD. right now, FreeBSD takes up about 65% of the space. I don't know how quickly i would use that up, but it would be nice to have a little more elbow room. Here are my only reservations: Multimedia support: windows does a great job with .avis, mpegs, .wav files, and the like. I just can't seem to get FreeBSD to work as seamlessly. Development: i use djgpp and rhide for school programming assignments. They work really well together. Granted, i haven't explored the BSD options. And if i ever need to bring VC++ work home, i'll be stuck. Games. Enough said. On the other hand, i don't really use that many multimedia apps, or games, and i know BSD has excellent development tools, once i learn them. Is the extra 2 gigs of space worth it? P.S. I'm a poor college student right now, if i could afford a desktop machine with a 20 gig drive, i would have it :-) -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 12:58:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101491502A for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:58:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lowell@world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com (lowell@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26871; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:58:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01495; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:58:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:34:12 -0500 (EST) To: Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 References: <388F3254.CF5F1C41@softweyr.com> From: Lowell Gilbert In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:43:48 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > decision was made on the third day when I learned how to create a TAGS file > and do tags-searches within Emacs. Two days later learning about Emacs > built-in support for RCS and CVS really put the nail in vi's coffin. vi supports tags too. The tag-building program for vi comes in FreeBSD's base install. To me, the big advantages from emacs derive from the fact that all of your text handling occurs in a single environment. That's not as important now that cut-and-paste between X applications works well, but touch-typists still get a big advantage from not needing to take their hands off the keyboard. And, of course, the fact that I can write new commands relatively easily. And start using them inside the editor immediately. Be well. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 13: 0:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F4014E87 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:00:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 62F7F199A; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:00:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:00:30 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... Message-ID: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 06:41:01PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 06:41:01PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I am very close to getting rid of windows entirely, and i wanted to get some opinions. I have a laptop with a 4 gig drive, split evenly with FreeBSD. right now, FreeBSD takes up about 65% of the space. I don't know how quickly i would use that up, but it would be nice to have a little more elbow room. Here are my only reservations: While you're on your way to getting rid of Windows, do yourself a favor and get rid of that lousy email client you're using, or at least fix its linewrapping settings. :-) > Multimedia support: windows does a great job with .avis, mpegs, .wav files, and the like. I just can't seem to get FreeBSD to work as seamlessly. Um, we have various MP3 players available. Same with .wav. Can't say anything about .avi's though. > Development: i use djgpp and rhide for school programming assignments. They work really well together. Granted, i haven't explored the BSD options. > And if i ever need to bring VC++ work home, i'll be stuck. I do all my development on FreeBSD. Granted, they are only simple non-GUI C++ programs. I find VIM + g++ 2.95.2 a nice combination. > Games. Enough said. There are some nice games that are available to run on FreeBSD. You could try the Linux version of this or that (i.e., Descent, Doom, Quake 3 Arena, and so forth). I happen to like xkobo, xbill, and other simple games that are available in the ports collection. > On the other hand, i don't really use that many multimedia apps, or games, > and i know BSD has excellent development tools, once i learn them. Is the > extra 2 gigs of space worth it? P.S. I'm a poor college student right now, > if i could afford a desktop machine with a 20 gig drive, i would have it :-) Heh.. if you gave up games completely, you'd probably think FreeBSD was heaven. :-) I speak for myself only.. I've never used any of the audio/video players available under either OS, and I've only played a few games (compared to most people anyway). I find the development tools much more intuitive under FreeBSD than Windows. If you want a GUI development suite, there are several already available (kdevelop, qtez, and others come to mind). Do some research. If you want to use FreeBSD bad enough, you could pitch a hand in the porting job. ;-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 13:14: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872941513B for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:14:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DZlO-0004Bv-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:14:06 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA37494; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:14:06 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:14:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Will Andrews Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... In-Reply-To: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >While you're on your way to getting rid of Windows, do yourself a favor and >get rid of that lousy email client you're using, or at least fix its >linewrapping settings. :-) oops. sorry. i started using vi as my pine editor for practice. Any idea how to make it word wrap? > >Heh.. if you gave up games completely, you'd probably think FreeBSD was >heaven. :-) Actually, i don't play hardly any games at all. And i love FreeBSD. I've ben running it since october, after months of linux. But i still haven't finished Return to Monkey Island :-) > >Do some research. If you want to use FreeBSD bad enough, you could pitch a >hand in the porting job. ;-) I hope to soon! -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 13:17:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from logisticsoftware.co.nz (logisticsoftware.co.nz [202.37.163.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27E9C14E3C for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:17:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz) Received: from jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz (jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz [10.1.3.1]) by logisticsoftware.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09342; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:17:41 +1300 (NZDT) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19936; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:17:41 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:17:41 +1300 From: Jonathan Chen To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... Message-ID: <20000127101741.G19545@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> References: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:14:05PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:14:05PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > >While you're on your way to getting rid of Windows, do yourself a favor and > >get rid of that lousy email client you're using, or at least fix its > >linewrapping settings. :-) > oops. sorry. i started using vi as my pine editor for practice. Any idea > how to make it word wrap? Try :set wm=10 Jonathan Chen ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "If you wish your merit to be known, acknowledge that of other people" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 13:22:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5DF0D150EA for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:22:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 9879 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2000 21:22:18 -0000 Received: from userao79.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.135.195) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2000 21:22:18 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00788; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:21:53 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:21:44 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Will Andrews Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... Message-ID: <20000126212143.B321@marder-1> References: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 04:00:30PM -0500, Will Andrews wrote: > On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 06:41:01PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Multimedia support: windows does a great job with .avis, mpegs, > > .wav files, and the like. I just can't seem to get FreeBSD to work > > as seamlessly. > > > Um, we have various MP3 players available. Same with .wav. Can't say > anything about .avi's though. > xanim(1). It's in the ports. -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 13:26:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29AB152ED for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:26:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16431; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:22:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:22:18 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Will Andrews Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... In-Reply-To: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Jonathan (and Will) On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 06:41:01PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Multimedia support: windows does a great job with .avis, mpegs, .wav > > files, and the like. I just can't seem to get FreeBSD to work as > > seamlessly. Well, I am 100% Microsoft free so I can't say anything about their own multimedia capabilities. I use xanim to view avis (it works great as long as the CODEC is available - this is not always true especially w/ some of the newer Intel Indeo ones etc). For MPEG movies, I've previously used mpeg_play for video - it doesn't do audio however. I've since downloaded and tried mtv (under Linux compatibility) and it works... sort of. The sound I get out is not good at all - note I'm not using Luigi's code as that didn't seem to work well for me before (couldn't play mp3s). If you don't need sound, mpeg_play works fine. If you need sound, mtv sort of works (YMMV - apparently some people are having no problems w/ it). Also note that mtv will NOT work under the most recent linux_base port - it says it can't find the libNoVersion library when it's installed and shows in the linux ldconfig list. I sent an email to -emulation and direct to Marcel and haven't heard back. For MP3s I use mpg123 and usually play them under gqmpeg. Works fine w/ me. WAV files I use splay although you can just cat them to /dev/audio. splay can also do mp1 and mp2. For Quicktime movies, xanim also works fine (again barring the availability of CODECs). Note that xanin can't do the latest Quicktime because Sorenson won't release the CODEC. > > Games. Enough said. > > There are some nice games that are available to run on FreeBSD. You > could try the Linux version of this or that (i.e., Descent, Doom, > Quake 3 Arena, and so forth). I happen to like xkobo, xbill, and other > simple games that are available in the ports collection. There are more and more games for Linux that will run under compatibility. The latest Civilization:Call to Power apparently works as do those listed above (I've played Doom a couple times - have to go to 8 bit color though which means I have to restart X so I gave that up). There are a number of other good games. Rollemup is a FUN pinball game that runs under Linux compatibility. Freeciv is a free civilization game which is pretty darn good (set any AIs to medium or easy though). If you're looking for networked games, you might try netrek (if it hasn't died yet). Just remember the key is to flame the other players to distract them! Ah, I remember when I used to have a borg client and could kill while typing flames and ignoring the enemies. :-) See /usr/ports/netrek-* for various clients. I also like malestrom (super asteroids). Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 13:38: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C4A154A4 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9D7921639; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:36:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:36:45 -0800 From: Chris Piazza To: Jonathan Chen Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... Message-ID: <20000126133645.B8159@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com> <20000127101741.G19545@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000127101741.G19545@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz>; from jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz on Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 10:17:41AM +1300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 10:17:41AM +1300, Jonathan Chen wrote: > On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:14:05PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > > > > >While you're on your way to getting rid of Windows, do yourself a favor and > > >get rid of that lousy email client you're using, or at least fix its > > >linewrapping settings. :-) > > oops. sorry. i started using vi as my pine editor for practice. Any idea > > how to make it word wrap? > > Try > > :set wm=10 Or alternatively: press enter at the end of a line. -Chris -- cpiazza@jaxon.net cpiazza@FreeBSD.org Abbotsford, BC, Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 13:44:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AE314C2B for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:44:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DaEN-0004aI-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:44:03 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA37896; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:44:02 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:44:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Chris Piazza Cc: Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... In-Reply-To: <20000126133645.B8159@norn.ca.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Haha very funny ;-) But i type fast and hate interrupting my thought pattern to hit when my editor should be able to do that, especially when i really get going about something. Besides, that's what computers are for. :-) -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 13:49:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDA615226 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:49:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DaJM-000P2F-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:49:12 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA37986; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:49:12 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:49:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Taylor Cc: Will Andrews , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Brett Taylor wrote: >For MPEG movies, I've previously used mpeg_play for video - it doesn't do >audio however. I've since downloaded and tried mtv (under Linux Might check this out... >For MP3s I use mpg123 and usually play them under gqmpeg. Works fine w/ >me. For music i prefer to use my stereo...or discman... so this really isn't a problem for me. >WAV files I use splay although you can just cat them to /dev/audio. >splay can also do mp1 and mp2. The problem i had here was catting to /dev/audio slowed the sample to half speed. Maybe splay will handle it better. >For Quicktime movies, xanim also works fine (again barring the >availability of CODECs). Note that xanin can't do the latest Quicktime >because Sorenson won't release the CODEC. This one sounds like a winner. >> > Games. Enough said. >There are more and more games for Linux that will run under compatibility. Those all sound like fun. I was hooked to Monkey Island and the other Lucasfilm games for a while. I'd like to finish it, but my brother-in-law lost one of the 2 CD-ROMs. I'm always worried the next big game will be one i want to play... but frankly i'm just not interested in what i have seen. Don't forget XGalaga. That one is a lot of fun... ;-) -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 13:59:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AF115548 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:57:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16593; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:56:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:56:09 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Will Andrews , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Jonathan On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Brett Taylor wrote: > > >For MP3s I use mpg123 and usually play them under gqmpeg. Works fine > >w/ me. > > For music i prefer to use my stereo...or discman... so this really > isn't a problem for me. Me too, but I spend a LOT of time in my office and I don't have a discman. :-) > >WAV files I use splay although you can just cat them to /dev/audio. > >splay can also do mp1 and mp2. > The problem i had here was catting to /dev/audio slowed the sample to > half speed. Maybe splay will handle it better. I recall this - did you try using sox to change them to a different sample speed? > >For Quicktime movies, xanim also works fine (again barring the > >availability of CODECs). Note that xanin can't do the latest > >Quicktime because Sorenson won't release the CODEC. > > This one sounds like a winner. What I'd REALLY like is for Apple to release a version of their Quicktime player for BSD. Cripes, OS X userland is based on BSD, couldn't they please give me a player for Quicktime? I'd pay for it, binary only even! Good grief they gave us the server - I want a PLAYER! :-) Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 14: 9:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF2314C48 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21213; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:33:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:33:52 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: John Cc: "Morten A. Middelthon" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cnn.com - "King of the network operating systems" Message-ID: <20000126143352.J26520@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <4.1.20000126121045.00974640@mail.udel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000126121045.00974640@mail.udel.edu>; from papalia@udel.edu on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 12:20:03PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * John [000126 09:52] wrote: > Hey all, > > So, I read that whole article, and I thought about formulating a letter to > the authors. I was hoping that someone with more experience would do that > though... below are the reasons. I know you have to pick your battles > carefully, and given that I'm relatively new to this "battle", I was hoping > someone could shed light on whether or not it's truly worth the effort > > - When you read the article, it reads (IMHO) as a blatant advertisement for > W2K, with only afterthoughts put in to the other 3 OS's. Everything is > "W2K" can do this, but XYZ os "can't do this". What really confounded me was that: 1) win2k never seemed to take the lead in _any_ of the benchmarks 2) the only OS they bothered to tune was win2k (it still didn't perform) 3) they only cared to 're-evaluate' a benchmark when win2k got toasted 4) win2k sucked eggs, but every paragraph praises it, maybe it's cool to be able to watch the loseNT perfmeter as your server sucks eggs "Well it totally sucked at serving LDAP, but look how cool the LDAP config tool was! win2k win2k!" bah! I finally saw win2k for the first time last night, it swaps like mad with 64 megs of ram while doing _absolutely nothing else_, the cool part is you don't have to reboot to change tcp/ip settings, but it seems like you have to up/down the interface after you change settings. How exactly is one to do this remotely? Even i'm not fast enough with a mouse to be able to re-up the interface before it eats my connection. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 14:15:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE3D15193 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:15:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21386; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:38:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:38:29 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Chris Piazza , Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... Message-ID: <20000126143829.K26520@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000126133645.B8159@norn.ca.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 09:44:02PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Jonathon McKitrick [000126 14:30] wrote: > Haha very funny ;-) > > But i type fast and hate interrupting my thought pattern to hit > when my editor should be able to do that, especially when i really get > going about something. Besides, that's what computers are > for. :-) Generally I do a pretty ok job at formatting, and more often than not I re-read my email before sending. While I'm going over what I'm about to send, I'll generally just hit '!}fmt' which pipes my paragraphs into fmt, it does an ok job. After doing it once you can just hit '.' to repeat that action on each paragraph, use '{' '}' to hop between paragraphs. enjoy, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 14:49:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91001506D for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:49:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id OAA24174; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:45:09 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA13394; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:45:09 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com [198.206.184.236]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id OAA23063; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:45:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <388F7A15.7A3E10FD@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:49:57 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Hey Wes, nice to hear from you. :-) And you too, it's been a while. > Actually, i just started learning VI, so maybe i'll try both at the same time. > However, i haven't quite reached that level yet of being an advanced programmer. > So, many of Emacs features will be lost on me. But, it is certainly worth a try, > since someday i may need it. > > Yes, it makes more sense like you said to start a session at login and use it > throughout the session. Maybe if i buy that book it will give me incentive. If much of your work on your computer consists of editing things, Emacs is a good tool. If you edit things only occasionally, other editors may be as useful and a bit faster to load. If you use X, aXe is pretty nice and is quick enough to launch from a dock or something like that. > Do you use emacs, Xemacs, or some derivative? Version 19 or 20? I use GNU Emacs 20, mostly because my .emacs file has been customized for GNU conventions over the years. If I were starting over, I'd probably pick Xemacs instead. Most of the younger Emacs'ers around here use Xemacs. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 15: 1:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043E3152CE for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:01:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id PAA24437; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:01:17 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA14194; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:01:16 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com [198.206.184.236]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id PAA24022; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:01:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <388F7DDD.EFB73428@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:06:05 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lowell Gilbert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 References: <388F3254.CF5F1C41@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lowell Gilbert wrote: > > Wes Peters writes: > > > decision was made on the third day when I learned how to create a TAGS file > > and do tags-searches within Emacs. Two days later learning about Emacs > > built-in support for RCS and CVS really put the nail in vi's coffin. > > vi supports tags too. The tag-building program for vi comes in > FreeBSD's base install. Yes, it does. It just doesn't support multiple buffers nearly as well as Emacs, which makes the tags search a lot less useful. It also doesn't support flexible screen-splitting, which is how I use tags searches, and makes the vi feature useless to me. All of this should, of course, be directed to emacs-advocacy@emacs.org, but chat isn't too far off. ;^) > To me, the big advantages from emacs derive from the fact that all of > your text handling occurs in a single environment. That's not as > important now that cut-and-paste between X applications works well, > but touch-typists still get a big advantage from not needing to take > their hands off the keyboard. Cut and paste in X still tends to mangle tabs and such. vi and xterm make a workable environment, Emacs makes a better one. I'd love to see something better come along, but I've been waiting for that for a number of years. > And, of course, the fact that I can write new commands relatively > easily. And start using them inside the editor immediately. Yup. Plus all the various modes you can obtain to automagically do things; its kind of the original open source system. > Be well. I will, thank you, and you as well. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 15: 4:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1686514E85 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:04:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA59716; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:33:35 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:33:35 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Terry Lambert , n@nectar.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kairetsu Message-ID: <20000127093335.E53307@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199909291723.KAA15997@usr06.primenet.com> <200001260608.WAA72904@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200001260608.WAA72904@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 25 January 2000 at 22:08:55 -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>> Our final solutions was to operate as separate, but associated legal >>> entities. The ISP is operated as a totally separate legal entity >>> from the Carrier business, they do have a possible affiliated status under >>> the 47 USC act, but so far the lawyers have keep us clean on that one. >> >> Heh. You're a "Kairetsu". > > I finally bothered to go dig out just what this was, it took a while > to find this reference that gave me some form of a definition: > > Mutasa pointed to the role of small to medium enterprises as an engine > for growth. In Japan they call this the Kairetsu. It is the hidden > wealth creating machine which also abounds in Europe. It is striking > to appreciate what the Germans call the Mittlestand The Mittelstand is > Germanys conglomeration of small firms creating wealth from exports. > These firms are supported by two factors. One a national export > infrastructure and two the business orientation (or culture) of small > firms. > > Yes, we are a Kairetsu, and rapidly moving from the ``small'' to the > ``medium'' class as enterprises go :-) I don't know about Kairetsu, but this isn't the type of the Mittelstand. Mittelstand companies stay the way they are, without great changes. This stability is one of their biggest advantages. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 15: 6:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFC414E58 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:06:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=propro) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12DbW4-0003HK-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:06:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 00:06:22 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Schneiders To: Wes Peters Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <388F7A15.7A3E10FD@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > Jonathon McKitrick wrote: [...] > > Actually, i just started learning VI, so maybe i'll try both at the same time. > > However, i haven't quite reached that level yet of being an advanced programmer. > > So, many of Emacs features will be lost on me. But, it is certainly worth a try, > > since someday i may need it. > > > > Yes, it makes more sense like you said to start a session at login and use it > > throughout the session. Maybe if i buy that book it will give me incentive. > > If much of your work on your computer consists of editing things, Emacs is a > good tool. If you edit things only occasionally, other editors may be as > useful and a bit faster to load. If you use X, aXe is pretty nice and is > quick enough to launch from a dock or something like that. > > > Do you use emacs, Xemacs, or some derivative? Version 19 or 20? > > I use GNU Emacs 20, mostly because my .emacs file has been customized for > GNU conventions over the years. If I were starting over, I'd probably pick > Xemacs instead. Most of the younger Emacs'ers around here use Xemacs. > I just happen to have bought an emacs book yesterday and read a bit. I have two things that I cannot get clear for myself: 1. Is it 'done' on BSD? The book gave me the idea that emacs is a real GNU thing, so much 'hallelujah' in it. I don't mind that, but wouldn't like to jump into learning it all, if it isn't really supported in BSD-circles. And I want to be politically correct of course :-) 2. Which version should I use/learn/configure? "Most younger ... use Xemacs." I'm 39. Does the fact that I still occasionally use WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS, because the ctrl and alt key-strokes [for notes, size e.g.] somehow come natural for me, suggest the non-X version? A third, now I'm at it: Does the Windows version (it is on the CD with the book) really work? Would be nice to use at work maybe, once I got used to it or maybe fond of it. -- Marc Schneiders marc@venster.nl marc@oldserver.demon.nl propro 11:56pm up 11 days, 23:45, load average: 2.64 2.19 2.06 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 15:12: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705C814E83 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:11:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DbaV-0000e1-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:10:59 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA39075; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:10:59 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:10:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Wes Peters Cc: Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <388F7DDD.EFB73428@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I take a chance suggesting VIM, since i'm sure you've seen it, bit it has a lot of what you were referring to, if not all. Buffer management is a big one, and VIM has it. Apparently a lot of VI fans really are referring to VIM. But i'm sure you know that... ;-) -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 15:17:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAD414E4B for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:17:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DbgO-0006F0-00; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:17:04 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA39165; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:17:04 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:17:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Marc Schneiders Cc: Wes Peters , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I just happen to have bought an emacs book yesterday and read a bit. I >have two things that I cannot get clear for myself: Well, since BSD is Unix, as long as they are revising emacs, it will have support in BSD. >1. Is it 'done' on BSD? The book gave me the idea that emacs is a real >GNU thing, so much 'hallelujah' in it. I don't mind that, but wouldn't >like to jump into learning it all, if it isn't really supported in >BSD-circles. And I want to be politically correct of course :-) See answer above... >2. Which version should I use/learn/configure? "Most younger ... use >Xemacs." I'm 39. Does the fact that I still occasionally use >WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS, because the ctrl and alt key-strokes [for >notes, size e.g.] somehow come natural for me, suggest the non-X >version? I think what he meant was that Xemacs wasn't out when he started with the original emacs. Xemacs offers a nice interface and menus, plus some differences. Very nice, from what i can see. >A third, now I'm at it: Does the Windows version (it is on the CD with >the book) really work? Would be nice to use at work maybe, once I got >used to it or maybe fond of it. FWIK, people who like emacs like it because it is the same on all environments, among other reasons, of course. There are versions for many different OSes out there. -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 15:18:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from canonware.com (canonware.com [207.20.242.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A0A2153C6 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:18:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: (qmail 74350 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Jan 2000 23:15:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:15:56 -0800 From: Jason Evans To: Wes Peters Cc: Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-ID: <20000126151556.E73462@sturm.canonware.com> References: <388F3254.CF5F1C41@softweyr.com> <388F7DDD.EFB73428@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <388F7DDD.EFB73428@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 04:06:05PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 04:06:05PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Cut and paste in X still tends to mangle tabs and such. vi and xterm make > a workable environment, Emacs makes a better one. I'd love to see something > better come along, but I've been waiting for that for a number of years. screen (ports/misc/screen) does wonders for the type of work environment you're describing in combination with vi. Personally, I'm a hard-core emacs user, but xterm/screen/vi is actually an appealing alternative. Seriously, check screen out. It is *very* worth spending a few hours to get used to it. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 15:21:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queeg.ludd.luth.se (queeg.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4544914C33 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:21:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pantzer@ludd.luth.se) Received: from speedy.ludd.luth.se (pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.164]) by queeg.ludd.luth.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08154; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 00:20:49 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200001262320.AAA08154@queeg.ludd.luth.se> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Marc Schneiders Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message from Marc Schneiders of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 00:06:22 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 00:20:49 +0100 From: Mattias Pantzare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 1. Is it 'done' on BSD? The book gave me the idea that emacs is a real > GNU thing, so much 'hallelujah' in it. I don't mind that, but wouldn't > like to jump into learning it all, if it isn't really supported in > BSD-circles. And I want to be politically correct of course :-) Emacs is used on almost every UNIX there is, and a few other operating = systems... > 2. Which version should I use/learn/configure? "Most younger ... use > Xemacs." I'm 39. Does the fact that I still occasionally use > WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS, because the ctrl and alt key-strokes [for > notes, size e.g.] somehow come natural for me, suggest the non-X > version? No, there is no non-X version. emacs AND xemacs can both be used as a X11= = program and as a normal text-program. The keys are the same. The diffrenc= ens = are minor. The diffrence from the description in the xemacs port: XEmacs has similar functionality to GNU Emacs. It uses a different = display model, including support for Motif menu and scroll bars and the ability to run as a widget inside other applications. Many people say it looks nicer than GNU Emacs. > A third, now I'm at it: Does the Windows version (it is on the CD with > the book) really work? Would be nice to use at work maybe, once I got > used to it or maybe fond of it. Probably, there is versions that work. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 15:58:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mvfx.com (mvfx-gw.mvfx.com [207.211.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED3D14DCA for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:58:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mvfx.com) Received: from mobiledan.mvfx.com (mobiledan.mvfx.com [10.62.6.38]) by mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA87380 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:58:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mobiledan.mvfx.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mobiledan.mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA38157 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:58:41 -0800 From: Dan Piponi To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... Message-ID: <20000126155840.B38080@mobiledan.mvfx.com> References: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 04:00:30PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE Organization: can be a good thing Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I happen to like xkobo, xbill, and other simple games that > are available in the ports collection. xbill is an entertaining joke but people don't actually *play* it do they! I'd recommend nethack(3) if I could get the FreeBSD port to compile without lots of termio type errors...it used to be good. And adom is worth checking out too. Civilisation: Call to Power works fine under FreeBSD too (costs $$$ though). -- Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 16:18:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FBD15156 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:18:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13542; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:17:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:17:57 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Jason Evans Cc: Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <20000126151556.E73462@sturm.canonware.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Seriously, check screen out. It is *very* worth spending a few hours to > get used to it. > > Jason I find screen excellent for alot of uses, one being the fact that I can be working on something at work, detach the screen and resume it when I get home. ahhh the wonders of modern technology =) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 17:23:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C476E15471 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:23:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 5909 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2000 01:23:06 -0000 Received: from userah22.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.132.207) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 2000 01:23:06 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA03687; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:23:11 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:23:10 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Marc Schneiders Cc: Wes Peters , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-ID: <20000127012310.A2615@marder-1> References: <388F7A15.7A3E10FD@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 12:06:22AM +0100, Marc Schneiders wrote: > On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > [...] > > > Actually, i just started learning VI, so maybe i'll try both at > > > the same time. However, i haven't quite reached that level yet > > > of being an advanced programmer. So, many of Emacs features will > > > be lost on me. But, it is certainly worth a try, since someday i > > > may need it. > > > > > > Yes, it makes more sense like you said to start a session at > > > login and use it throughout the session. Maybe if i buy that > > > book it will give me incentive. > > > > If much of your work on your computer consists of editing things, > > Emacs is a good tool. If you edit things only occasionally, other > > editors may be as useful and a bit faster to load. If you use X, > > aXe is pretty nice and is quick enough to launch from a dock or > > something like that. > > > > > Do you use emacs, Xemacs, or some derivative? Version 19 or 20? > > > > I use GNU Emacs 20, mostly because my .emacs file has been > > customized for GNU conventions over the years. If I were starting > > over, I'd probably pick Xemacs instead. Most of the younger > > Emacs'ers around here use Xemacs. > > > > I just happen to have bought an emacs book yesterday and read a bit. > I have two things that I cannot get clear for myself: > > 1. Is it 'done' on BSD? The book gave me the idea that emacs is a real > GNU thing, so much 'hallelujah' in it. I don't mind that, but wouldn't > like to jump into learning it all, if it isn't really supported in > BSD-circles. And I want to be politically correct of course :-) > > 2. Which version should I use/learn/configure? "Most younger ... use > Xemacs." I'm 39. Does the fact that I still occasionally use > WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS, because the ctrl and alt key-strokes [for > notes, size e.g.] somehow come natural for me, suggest the non-X > version? > Well, I'm 41 and have only recently started using emacs (mainly as the result of the emacs evangelism of Greg and others) so a mere slip of a lad like yourself shouldn't have to worry :) One of the biggest obstacles to moving to emacs from vi is the totally different (and often conflicting) terminology used. I don't know whether this is a function of emacs being written in LISP or emacs being written by Lord Stallman (ha ha; ispell(1) has just thrown up "Stallman" as an unknown word :)) but, for example, every other editor I've used uses the term "Colour Syntax Highlighting" but what does emacs call it? - "Font-locking" :-/. Also, the term "yank" has exactly the opposite meaning in emacs to vi. All in all emacs is a very powerful tool; as others have pointed out, you start emacs when you login and use it all the time rather than just start it when you wish to edit a file. It just takes some getting used to though. > A third, now I'm at it: Does the Windows version (it is on the CD with > the book) really work? Would be nice to use at work maybe, once I got > used to it or maybe fond of it. > o Well, the company I work has now moved over (downgraded ;)) to NT so everyone uses VC++ (I have the distinction as the *only* person who works exclusively on a Sun) but one guy, although a Windozer, uses emacs and his fingers are just a blur on the keyboard (hardly ever touches the mouse), so I guess the Win version is pretty good. > -- > Marc Schneiders > > marc@venster.nl > marc@oldserver.demon.nl > > propro 11:56pm up 11 days, 23:45, load average: 2.64 2.19 2.06 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 20:36:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CD5015526 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:36:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drbrain@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 74660 invoked by uid 1100); 27 Jan 2000 04:36:24 -0000 Date: 26 Jan 2000 20:36:24 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:36:24 -0800 From: "Dr. Brain" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... Message-ID: <20000126203624.A74577@toxic.magnesium.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've found luck using wine with a few windows games such as Fallout 2 (a kick-butt RPG) but haven't tried Fallout under wine. Some games required different bit-depth or resolution, but I started another X server and ran the game off of it. -- Eric Hodel - drbrain@segment7.net - http://segment7.net While I'm at it: I don't like that quote either. -Oliver Fromme To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 21: 8:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C53C14E8B for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:08:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA44566; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:21 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:20 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Joerg B. Micheel" Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" , pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> References: <200001270142.RAA00523@moe.2bsd.com> <20000127145602.P53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000127180406.A574@begemot.org> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 18:04:06 +1300, Joerg Micheel wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >>>> From: "Joerg B. Micheel" >>>> I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its >>>> performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for >>> >>> Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its >>> "native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance >>> is not anything one would write home about. The difference between >>> SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner >>> system. >> >> That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large >> system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the >> comparison could be very different. > > That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see what they think. For -chat: Sun have announced their intention to release the source code of Solaris [2.]8. We're discussing what this means. See http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/ for more details. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 26 22:29:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A65B14E10 for ; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 22:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id WAA29935; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 22:24:55 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id WAA09127; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 22:24:54 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id WAA16318; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 22:24:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <388FE5D8.79A8C213@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:29:44 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > I take a chance suggesting VIM, since i'm sure you've seen it, bit it > has a lot of what you were referring to, if not all. Buffer > management is a big one, and VIM has it. Apparently a lot of VI fans > really are referring to VIM. But i'm sure you know that... ;-) Yeah, and vile too. I have a couple of vile (fan) coworkers. Both are still bleh. Can you run gdb inside them, with a pointer on the current source line? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 5: 2:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5FC15596 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 05:02:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DoZ6-000JNg-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:24 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA48336; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:23 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:02:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" , "Steven M. Schultz" , pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see >what they think. Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed difference. -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 6: 8:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D9F1569D for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:08:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA24143; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:08:03 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:08:02 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Dan Piponi Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... In-Reply-To: <20000126155840.B38080@mobiledan.mvfx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Dan Piponi wrote: > > I happen to like xkobo, xbill, and other simple games that > > are available in the ports collection. > > xbill is an entertaining joke but people don't actually *play* it do they! > > I'd recommend nethack(3) if I could get the FreeBSD port to compile without lots > of termio type errors...it used to be good. And adom is worth checking out > too. Civilisation: Call to Power works fine under FreeBSD too (costs $$$ > though). Which version of the nethack port? It was recently updated to 3.3.0 in the ports tree. If that doesn't build, I want to know, so I can fix it. I just rebuilt it (on -CURRENT, I don't have a -STABLE box handy to build on.) with no problems. David, nethack port maintainer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 6:17:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE0614F0A for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lowell@world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com (lowell@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25028 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA05980; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:17:00 -0500 (EST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 References: From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 27 Jan 2000 09:17:00 -0500 In-Reply-To: Marc Schneiders's message of Thu, 27 Jan 2000 00:06:22 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc Schneiders writes: > 2. Which version should I use/learn/configure? "Most younger ... use > Xemacs." I'm 39. Does the fact that I still occasionally use > WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS, because the ctrl and alt key-strokes [for > notes, size e.g.] somehow come natural for me, suggest the non-X > version? By the way, the 'x' in 'xemacs' has nothing to do with the X Window System. It stands for "extended," if I remember correctly. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 6:31:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8743F15645 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:31:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DpxU-000MRr-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:31:40 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA49246; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:31:40 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:31:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Lowell Gilbert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Jan 2000, Lowell Gilbert wrote: >By the way, the 'x' in 'xemacs' has nothing to do with the X Window >System. It stands for "extended," if I remember correctly. Hey, that's good to know.. interesting piece of info. So apparently then, if i choose Xemacs, if i use a system with gnu emacs all the key bindings are identical. Basically. I doubt i will be that advanced anytime soon. -=> jm <=- "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... Revel in your time!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 6:47: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bigphred.greycat.com (bigphred.greycat.com [207.173.133.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDAA71566F for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:46:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann@bigphred.greycat.com) Received: (from dann@localhost) by bigphred.greycat.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA53614 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:47:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:47:13 -0800 From: Dann Lunsford To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127064713.A53522@greycat.com> References: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:02:23PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net > seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp > connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed > that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running > now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed > difference. Why do you think a lot of people call it Slowlaris? Another illustration: A group at work uses a Sun box as a license server; it's also the only machine in that room (bunch of HP-UX stripped-down workstations) with a CD-reader attached (Hey this is state government, OK? Spend the taxpayers money on 4 Origin 2000's and a .5TB(!) disk array to run web servers, that's OK, but get CD's for workstations? No, too expensive!), and thus the only machine they can read their GIS data on. Old Sun CD finally dies. I tell them they need to order a new one, give them the specs. New reader arrives: It's a 36X drive, from some PC place, not Sun, It *is* SCSI, though, Hook it up, probe-scsi recognizes it correctly, Solaris gets overruns, tries to negotiate, fails, etc. Hook it to an identically configured, hardware-wise, Sun running OpenBSD (on my desk, natch), works great. Hook it to a different Sun running Slowlaris, errors abound. Several other admins I know report similar things. The Slowlaris drivers simply can't keep up, So now they're using the drive I originally had on *my* machine (a Sun drive), and I'm using their new drive. Happy ending! I suspect, when Sun releases the source for Slowlaris, that we will hear the sound of a lot of hackers getting physically sick from reading it. -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 6:52:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5732F15615 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:52:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DqHf-000JtT-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:52:31 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA49541; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:52:31 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:52:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Dann Lunsford Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127064713.A53522@greycat.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Dann Lunsford wrote: >On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:02:23PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> >> Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net >> seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp >> connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed >> that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running >> now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed >> difference. > >Why do you think a lot of people call it Slowlaris? Another illustration: Funny you should say that.. that's exactly what i wrote in the feedback message...'What a shame to see you switch from FreeBSD to Slow-aris...' -=> jm <=- If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does anybody care? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 7: 3:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC53314E10 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:03:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:59:13 -0500 Message-ID: <38905EB5.731A2C9A@cstone.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:05:25 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Organization: Cornerstone Networks, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: getting rid of windows... References: <20000126160030.B401@argon.blackdawn.com> <20000126155840.B38080@mobiledan.mvfx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Piponi wrote: > > > I happen to like xkobo, xbill, and other simple games that > > are available in the ports collection. > > xbill is an entertaining joke but people don't actually *play* it do they! We've wasted way too much time in my office playing xevil and xpilot. The xevil port that comes with FreeBSD is a little old - go to www.xevil.com and you can get a much-improved version. :-) SeanMike nothing beats being a chopper boy on crack and PCP with a chainsaw. :-) -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 "This is a world where a geomantically-trained ninja interior decorator can wreak havoc." - Feng Shui [paraphrased] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 7:18: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102EB14A03 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:17:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DqgG-000KSC-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:17:56 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA49828; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:17:55 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:17:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Marc Schneiders Cc: Wes Peters , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Marc Schneiders wrote: >I just happen to have bought an emacs book yesterday and read a bit. I >have two things that I cannot get clear for myself: > >1. Is it 'done' on BSD? The book gave me the idea that emacs is a real >GNU thing, so much 'hallelujah' in it. I don't mind that, but wouldn't >like to jump into learning it all, if it isn't really supported in >BSD-circles. And I want to be politically correct of course :-) I just realized what you are getting at. I was wondering the same thing. Without starting a flame war, if Stallman represents and advances the polar opposite of what the BSD license represents, can we still support his product so heartily? SOme people go to the extreme of not using programs like AbiWord simply because they are GPLed. Others say, 'if you like the program, use it!' Tough call. -=> jm <=- If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does anybody care? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 7:20:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FAC315403 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:20:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12DqiB-000O5P-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:19:55 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA49864; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:19:54 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:19:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Pat Lynch Cc: Jason Evans , Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Pat Lynch wrote: >I find screen excellent for alot of uses, one being the fact that I can be >working on something at work, detach the screen and resume it when I get >home. Is this in any way similar to a remote xclient/server combo? -=> jm <=- If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does anybody care? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 9:46:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3973215828 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:46:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12Dsze-0002w2-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:46:07 -0700 Message-ID: <38908586.A6694C36@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:51:02 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Marc Schneiders , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Marc Schneiders wrote: > > >I just happen to have bought an emacs book yesterday and read a bit. I > >have two things that I cannot get clear for myself: > > > >1. Is it 'done' on BSD? The book gave me the idea that emacs is a real > >GNU thing, so much 'hallelujah' in it. I don't mind that, but wouldn't > >like to jump into learning it all, if it isn't really supported in > >BSD-circles. And I want to be politically correct of course :-) > > I just realized what you are getting at. I was wondering the same > thing. Without starting a flame war, if Stallman represents and > advances the polar opposite of what the BSD license represents, can we > still support his product so heartily? SOme people go to the extreme > of not using programs like AbiWord simply because they are > GPLed. Others say, 'if you like the program, use it!' Tough call. Different licenses are appropriate for different kinds of software. I personally have no problems with the GPL for applications like Emacs, which are an optional part of any system. Where I don't like the GPL is in the operating system itself, which prevents its use in binary-only distributions in embedded (or single-purpose) products. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 10: 3:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9EA155AA for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:03:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA73422; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:03:43 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: January BAFUG meeting in Berkeley Message-ID: <20000127100343.A73407@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- Berkeley BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) January 2000 Meeting The Berkeley chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding its monthly meeting on Thursday, January 27th. This month's meeting will be held at The Transbay / UC Computers at 2569 Telegraph Ave. in Berkeley. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Our Agenda will be : Agenda : ==> Josef Grosch will give an informal talk on setup Jserv which is a Java servelet running within Apache. ==> Josef Grosch will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on February 26th at The Robert Austin Computer Show at the Oakland Convention Center. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at UC Computers / Transbay in Berkeley. UC Computers is located at 2569 Telegraph Ave. between Parker & Baker Streets. There is limited parking on the street. Their phone number is (510) 649-6087. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By AC Transit bus: By AC Transit bus: Routes 40 El Cerrito - Bayfair, 64 Downtown Berkeley - Merritt College, 51 Berkeley - Oakland - Alameda, 52 U.C. Village - U.C. Campus, 7 Del Norte BART - Rockridge BART, and "U" San Francisco - Berkeley stop nearby. By BART: From the downtown Berkeley station, walk uphill (east) one block on Allston Way to Oxford Street at the edge of the UC campus, turning right (south) two blocks to turn left (east) onto Bancroft Way. Walk three blocks uphill to turn right (south) onto Telegraph Avenue. Transbay/UC Computers is 5 1/2 short blocks ahead, at 2569 Telegraph. By Car: By car: From I-80, exit eastbound on University Avenue, and proceed two miles to the end, turning right (south) on Oxford Street. Proceed 11 blocks along Oxford (which becomes Fulton Street) to turn left (east) on Parker Street. Go three blocks to Telegraph, and park where you can. Transbay/UC Computers is at 2569 Telegraph. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.transbay.net http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington , or Josef Grosch on or before January 27th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 10:36:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from artsmail.uwaterloo.ca (artsmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.42.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5891714FE3 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:36:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmccolm@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca) Received: from arts1054.uwaterloo.ca (cmccolm@arts1054.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.42.110]) by artsmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA75681 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:36:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cmccolm@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000127133609.007c4e00@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca> X-Sender: cmccolm@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:36:09 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Charles McColm Subject: KWUUG - Meetings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org KWUUG - Kitchener Waterloo Unix User's Group Meets: 3rd Wednesday of each Month Location: DC (Davis Centre) 1331 (inside room 1330) at the University of Waterloo Meetings are informal and cover a wide variety of Unix operating systems. A number of members have specific experience with FreeBSD. Anyone is welcome to come out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 11:58:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFBC156AB for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:58:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Received: from morgaine (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA06467; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:59:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Message-Id: <4.1.20000127145334.00a3df00@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:46 -0500 To: Alfred Perlstein From: John Subject: Re: cnn.com - "King of the network operating systems" Cc: "Morten A. Middelthon" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000126143352.J26520@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <4.1.20000126121045.00974640@mail.udel.edu> <4.1.20000126121045.00974640@mail.udel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was just thinking... with any truly scientific experiment, there has to be legitimate documentation on the procedures used for the experiment. These serve for three main purposes: first so you can follow what you did. Second so you can repeat the experiment, hopefully coming to the same conclusions. And third, so that outside parties can duplicate your results. I'm wondering if it's worth asking the two "authors" to see their procedures and use that information as a potential basis of a "letter to the editor"? Afterall, CNN is a MAJOR media base, and would probably hate to be disemminating faulty data? Just a thought... --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 12:49:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2596114EE4 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:49:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Dvqw-000CXH-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:49:18 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA53864; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:49:17 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:49:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: John Cc: Alfred Perlstein , "Morten A. Middelthon" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cnn.com - "King of the network operating systems" In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000127145334.00a3df00@mail.udel.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just read the review.... i missed the beginning of this thread, but i am appalled that FreeBSd is not even referred to anywhere. Maybe that is because it is free. I find it amusing that win 2000 is already being heralded as a great network OS, when many in the corporate world won't touch it with a 3-meter pole until they see what happens after release and trail-by-fire. Sometimes i wonder if all this advocacy is just a waste of time. FreeBSD may never die, but it will never be taken seriously in a world where a product is judged by slick look-and-feel, accessibility by non-experts, and financial success. Maybe that statement is a bit rash, but i can't see the situation changing anytime soon. Hey, even Linux may be eclipsed by win 2000, who knows? If Solaris 8 is a failure, that will only bolster M$ market position. We may have to settle for a small slice of the pie, and learn to be happy being the radical outsiders, which we already are anyway. ;-) -=> jm <=- If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does anybody care? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 14:29:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0502C15077 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:29:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id IAA64677; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:59:30 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:59:30 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dann Lunsford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000128085930.C64142@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127064713.A53522@greycat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000127064713.A53522@greycat.com> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 6:47:13 -0800, Dann Lunsford wrote: > > I suspect, when Sun releases the source for Slowlaris, that we will hear > the sound of a lot of hackers getting physically sick from reading it. I've seen it. It's not that bad. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 14:58:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10A114EAD for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:58:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from wghicks.mindspring.com (user-33qtgvu.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.195.254]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01654; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:58:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from wghicks.mindspring.com (IDENT:jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA65940; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:00:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@wghicks.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200001272300.PAA65940@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.0 09/18/1999 To: Dann Lunsford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhix@wghicks.mindspring.com Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:47:13 PST." <20000127064713.A53522@greycat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:00:51 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I suspect, when Sun releases the source for Slowlaris, that we will hear > the sound of a lot of hackers getting physically sick from reading it. > I have more fear of hackers getting *legally* sick from reading it ;-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 15: 3: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445FB1566F for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:03:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=propro) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 12DxwF-0001uL-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:02:55 +0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:02:55 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Schneiders To: Wes Peters Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <38908586.A6694C36@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Marc Schneiders wrote: > > > > >I just happen to have bought an emacs book yesterday and read a bit. I > > >have two things that I cannot get clear for myself: > > > > > >1. Is it 'done' on BSD? The book gave me the idea that emacs is a real > > >GNU thing, so much 'hallelujah' in it. I don't mind that, but wouldn't > > >like to jump into learning it all, if it isn't really supported in > > >BSD-circles. And I want to be politically correct of course :-) > > > > I just realized what you are getting at. I was wondering the same > > thing. Without starting a flame war, if Stallman represents and > > advances the polar opposite of what the BSD license represents, can we > > still support his product so heartily? SOme people go to the extreme > > of not using programs like AbiWord simply because they are > > GPLed. Others say, 'if you like the program, use it!' Tough call. > > Different licenses are appropriate for different kinds of software. > I personally have no problems with the GPL for applications like Emacs, which > are an optional part of any system. Where I don't like the GPL is in the > operating system itself, which prevents its use in binary-only distributions > in embedded (or single-purpose) products. > Absolutely. Still after the semi-religious introductory chapter of the Emacs book I got, my first steps, after installing emacs20 from ports, brought little surprises but merely confirmed my presuppositions. At the bottom of the opening screen: "For information about the GNU Project and its goals, type C-h C-p." I shouldn't have done it. "Note file is write protected" (Same is true for BSD's /COPYRIGHT of course :-)) Reading a little of Stallmans Manifesto (for those who don't use Emacs, that's the text you get to see) and being trained as a theologian originally myself, I got rather interested in the history of this. Is there a *good* text somewhere about the project's history and / or Stallman in particular? I mean something not written by a believer nor by opponents? Something that answers questions like: Is he a genius? What sort of ethical backgrounds are involved? They look very like the ethics I was taught in the seventies in a liberal Catholic secondary school. I've always been fond of biographies of scholars, those that put them in perspective both as men as well as their ideas, achievemnets etc. I would love a good Stallman biography, I think. Does it exist? -- Marc Schneiders marc@venster.nl marc@oldserver.demon.nl propro 9:36pm up 12 days, 21:25, load average: 2.09 2.07 2.07 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 16: 8: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF340158C9 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:07:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 12Dxhz-000GKs-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:48:11 +0000 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.12 #1) id 12Dxhz-0000CR-00; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:48:11 +0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:48:11 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: Marc Schneiders Cc: Wes Peters , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-ID: <20000127224811.A752@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <388F7A15.7A3E10FD@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc Schneiders wrote: > I just happen to have bought an emacs book yesterday and read a bit. I > have two things that I cannot get clear for myself: on the subject of books, has anyone read the O'Reilly Emacs book? ("Learning GNU Emacs", ISBN 1-56592-152-6, ). Is it worth buying? I personally have only tried Emacs a couple of times, and I absolutely hated it, but a book might help give me somewhere to start. The main thing I'm wondering is how up to date it is, and how well it would apply to different/newer versions, e.g. GNU Emacs 20 (the URL above mentions 19.30) or Xemacs, for example? -- Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 18: 9:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C128715A10 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:09:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12E0qg-000MaB-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:09:22 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA57961; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:09:21 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:09:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Marc Schneiders , Wes Peters , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <20000127224811.A752@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Ben Smithurst wrote: >on the subject of books, has anyone read the O'Reilly >Emacs book? ("Learning GNU Emacs", ISBN 1-56592-152-6, >). Is it worth buying? I Well, from what i have heard and read, this book is supposedly great. I was thinking of getting it myself. -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 19: 4:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A149E14EE3 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:04:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id TAA18544; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:00:05 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id TAA27250; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:00:05 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com [198.206.184.236]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id TAA17971; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:00:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3891075B.7B4E91F@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:04:59 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Ben Smithurst , Marc Schneiders , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Ben Smithurst wrote: > >on the subject of books, has anyone read the O'Reilly > >Emacs book? ("Learning GNU Emacs", ISBN 1-56592-152-6, > >). Is it worth buying? I > > Well, from what i have heard and read, this book is supposedly great. > I was thinking of getting it myself. My well-thumbed copy, which is about 6 years old now, worked quite well to teach me the ins and outs of GNU Emacs. We were back at like 18.34 in those days. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 20:24: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c1870039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F85615030 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id FAA23505; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 05:24:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <389119CC.B4F515F1@nisser.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 05:23:40 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Terry Lambert , n@nectar.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kairetsu References: <199909291723.KAA15997@usr06.primenet.com> <200001260608.WAA72904@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <20000127093335.E53307@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > >> Heh. You're a "Kairetsu". > > > > I finally bothered to go dig out just what this was, it took a while > > to find this reference that gave me some form of a definition: > > > > I don't know about Kairetsu, but this isn't the type of the > Mittelstand. Mittelstand companies stay the way they are, without > great changes. This stability is one of their biggest advantages. The usual english form is keiretsu. E.g. Alta Vista gives 18 hits on kairetsu versus 3,490 on keiretsu. Call it synergy. The mittelstand is soo bourgeois . Roelof -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Het Slakke Huis van de TGV op http://SlakkeHuis.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Telekabel home http://nisser.com/ Beveiligingsverwijzingen http://nisser.com/links.htm Chello lijn monitor http://nisser.com/~roelof/logs_chello.shtml ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 20:46: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bigphred.greycat.com (bigphred.greycat.com [207.173.133.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F4815A64 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:46:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann@bigphred.greycat.com) Received: (from dann@localhost) by bigphred.greycat.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA55522; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:46:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:46:09 -0800 From: Dann Lunsford To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127204609.A55486@greycat.com> References: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127064713.A53522@greycat.com> <20000128085930.C64142@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000128085930.C64142@freebie.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 08:59:30AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 6:47:13 -0800, Dann Lunsford wrote: > > > > I suspect, when Sun releases the source for Slowlaris, that we will hear > > the sound of a lot of hackers getting physically sick from reading it. > > I've seen it. It's not that bad. > Hmmmm... OK. Coming from you, I'll accept that :-). Now, How Bad Is It? -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 20:50:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bigphred.greycat.com (bigphred.greycat.com [207.173.133.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB1C815A24 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:50:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann@bigphred.greycat.com) Received: (from dann@localhost) by bigphred.greycat.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA55531; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:50:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:50:26 -0800 From: Dann Lunsford To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000127205026.B55486@greycat.com> References: <20000127064713.A53522@greycat.com> <200001272300.PAA65940@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200001272300.PAA65940@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:00:51PM -0800, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > > I suspect, when Sun releases the source for Slowlaris, that we will hear > > the sound of a lot of hackers getting physically sick from reading it. > > > > I have more fear of hackers getting *legally* sick from reading it ;-) > I think I'd enjoy this more if I knew what you meant :-). Really. You think there's going to be some sort of legal gotcha in the Slowlaris source? Or what? -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 21: 2:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B3014C2D for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:02:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA42451; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:02:41 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:02:41 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Dann Lunsford Cc: W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000127205026.B55486@greycat.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Dann Lunsford wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:00:51PM -0800, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > > > > I suspect, when Sun releases the source for Slowlaris, that we will hear > > > the sound of a lot of hackers getting physically sick from reading it. > > > > > > > I have more fear of hackers getting *legally* sick from reading it ;-) > > > I think I'd enjoy this more if I knew what you meant :-). Really. > > You think there's going to be some sort of legal gotcha in the > Slowlaris source? Or what? I can see there may be intellectual property rights issues. Solaris does some things better than the free UNIXes, like SMP. Even if the technology used is well known in the literature, there may be concerns that people doing work on other systems are stealing the Solaris implementation. How likely this depends on the license (which I haven't seen) and also on Sun's strictness in its interpertation and enforcement. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 21:32: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6CA15A56 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:31:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id QAA54362; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:01:31 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:01:31 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dann Lunsford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000128160131.H583@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000127153820.T53307@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127064713.A53522@greycat.com> <20000128085930.C64142@freebie.lemis.com> <20000127204609.A55486@greycat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000127204609.A55486@greycat.com> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 20:46:09 -0800, Dann Lunsford wrote: > On Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 08:59:30AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 6:47:13 -0800, Dann Lunsford wrote: >>> >>> I suspect, when Sun releases the source for Slowlaris, that we will hear >>> the sound of a lot of hackers getting physically sick from reading it. >> >> I've seen it. It's not that bad. >> > Hmmmm... OK. Coming from you, I'll accept that :-). Now, How Bad Is It? How should I describe it (without being sued :-)? I don't think you'd see that much difference from FreeBSD in most cases. I don't think Sun has a bde, but you'd really need to see the big picture to get upset by anything. Any particular source you'd like me to compare? Bear in mind that the source tree layout is very different, and it obviously doesn't make much sense to compare something imported from Berkeley, but if you point to a specific functionality, I'll take a look. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 23: 0:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BC4615A47 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 38913B93-042D, Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:47:47 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not use this address) X-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:47:47 +0000 Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-ID: <38913B93.042D@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:47:47 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon wrote: > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Ben Smithurst wrote: > >on the subject of books, has anyone read the O'Reilly > >Emacs book? ("Learning GNU Emacs", ISBN 1-56592-152-6, > >). Is it worth buying? I > > Well, from what i have heard and read, this book is supposedly great. > I was thinking of getting it myself. I think it's very good rather than 'great'. IMO, trouble with [X]emacs is that you end up writing quite a bit of code to customise it, and personally I find other scripting languages (Perl, TCL, Python) more congenial than [e]lisp. These days I use my own editor, written in TCL (expectk, actually). But I still think that emacs is quite a nifty system... Were it not for 'screen', I'd probably still be coding up the odd bit of elisp. -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . j @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 23:11:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B77114F24 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:11:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from wghicks.mindspring.com (user-33qtgce.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.193.142]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA18359; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from wghicks.mindspring.com (IDENT:jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA67362; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:13:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@wghicks.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200001280713.XAA67362@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.0 09/18/1999 To: David Scheidt Cc: Dann Lunsford , W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhix@wghicks.mindspring.com Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:02:41 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:13:39 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Dann Lunsford wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 03:00:51PM -0800, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > > > > > > I suspect, when Sun releases the source for Slowlaris, that we will hear > > > > the sound of a lot of hackers getting physically sick from reading it. > > > > > > > > > > I have more fear of hackers getting *legally* sick from reading it ;-) > > > > > I think I'd enjoy this more if I knew what you meant :-). Really. > > > > You think there's going to be some sort of legal gotcha in the > > Slowlaris source? Or what? > > > I can see there may be intellectual property rights issues. Solaris does > some things better than the free UNIXes, like SMP. Even if the technology > used is well known in the literature, there may be concerns that people > doing work on other systems are stealing the Solaris implementation. How > likely this depends on the license (which I haven't seen) and also on Sun's > strictness in its interpertation and enforcement. (IANAL) My fears aren't necessarily that the current regime at Sun will pursue action against software developers who have been "tainted" by viewing the Solaris source (although they might) but that a future one _could_. Remember, it is not necessary that Sun actually be able to win a case like this to cause great damage to a project like FreeBSD. If they were to bring suit against an individual, this would probably have a chilling effect on other contributors who were also Solaris license holders. Since Sun has specified rather stringent requirements regarding the use and distribution of the source code under this license agreement, they could probably demonstrate that they have exercised due diligence in protection of their trade secrets and might win significant protection from the courts if the issue were ever raised. For my own safety, I have decided to ignore their source release and not become in any way tainted with knowledge of trade secrets disclosed under the Solaris source licensing agreement. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 27 23:58:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.inx.de (www.inx.de [195.21.255.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68CD14FDD for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:58:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from n245-120.berlin.snafu.de ([195.21.245.120] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by www.inx.de with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 12E6IH-00044W-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:58:14 +0100 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 1C64A159; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:51:54 +0100 (CET) To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 References: From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 27 Jan 2000 23:51:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jonathon McKitrick's message of "Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:10:58 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick writes on freebsd-chat: > Apparently a lot of VI fans really are referring to VIM. I do not like about VIM that it has some very irritating habits, like *deleting* the text to change in a "c" command before you type! There are some other points where VIM seems to differ deliberately from vi's behaviour. Perhaps some of this can be configured, but when I use vi it is partly to the reason that I don't need more configuration than "set sw=4 ai sm". (This is actually the contents of my .exrc.) (As an aside, I am actually an Emacs person with several thousands of lines of Emacs configuration and customization etc.) -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 0:12:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81FFE15A85 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:12:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12E6TE-000GU4-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:09:32 +0200 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:09:32 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Juergen Nickelsen Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-ID: <20000128100932.C62645@mithrandr.moria.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Rhodes University Computer Users' Society X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2000-01-27 (23:51), Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > I do not like about VIM that it has some very irritating habits, > like *deleting* the text to change in a "c" command before you type! > There are some other points where VIM seems to differ deliberately > from vi's behaviour. Perhaps some of this can be configured, but > when I use vi it is partly to the reason that I don't need more > configuration than "set sw=4 ai sm". (This is actually the contents > of my .exrc.) set compatible Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 3:28:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queeg.ludd.luth.se (queeg.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD35014D8C for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:28:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pantzer@ludd.luth.se) Received: from speedy.ludd.luth.se (pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.164]) by queeg.ludd.luth.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27121; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:39:44 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200001280939.KAA27121@queeg.ludd.luth.se> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Garrett Wollman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Problems installing FreeBSD 4.0 20000125-CURRENT In-Reply-To: Message from Garrett Wollman of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:26:44 EST." <200001280226.VAA21947@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:39:44 +0100 From: Mattias Pantzare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > < said: > > > That's not correct; your DHCP configuration should reflect the hostname. > > No, it shouldn't. As I keep on trying to explain, the DHCP addresses > are: > > 1) Temporary. > 2) Meaningless. > 3) Temporary. > 4) Temporary. > 5) Temporary. :-) No, they are: 1) Static 2) Static 3) Static 4) Static 5) Static It is realy nice to be able to copy one HD image to all 30 FreeBSD workstationes and let DHCP set everything that needs to be diffrent on the diffrent computers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 5: 6:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0970B14F4E for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 05:06:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12EB6a-000GKX-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:06:28 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA64592; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:06:28 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:06:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: do not use this address Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: <38913B93.042D@funbox.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, do not use this address wrote: >IMO, trouble with [X]emacs is that you end up writing quite a bit of >code to customise it, and personally I find other scripting languages >(Perl, TCL, Python) more congenial than [e]lisp. These days I use >my own editor, written in TCL (expectk, actually). From what i understand, although Lisp is a cryptic language at first, it is supposedly easy to learn and is the language of choice for AI. Also, AutoCAD has used it for years for extending its system and allowing users to write extensions. I always thought it was pretty neat. Of all the scripting languages, is there a simple way to sum up the differences between Perl, TCL, and Python? And what is expectk? > >But I still think that emacs is quite a nifty system... Were it not >for 'screen', I'd probably still be coding up the odd bit of elisp. How do you use screen with emacs? I have screen instllled, but apparently i have missed its purpose. I think i just used it for something simple, then forgot about it. > > >-- Tim Jackson >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >please reply to: t i m . j @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k >======================================================================== > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 5:58:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA8514D2A for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 05:58:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcrosenberg@earthlink.net) Received: from home (sdn-ar-002mabostP092.dialsprint.net [168.191.57.180]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA01411; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 05:52:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002001bf6996$34389ec0$b439bfa8@home> From: "John Rosenberg" To: "Jonathon McKitrick" , "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" , "Steven M. Schultz" , , "FreeBSD Chat" References: Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:45:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have written several device drivers (e.g., disk, DSP, DAT) for Solaris. It is the slowest OS since Multix. Solaris is buggy, albeit pretty darned stable. Interesting OS, but I'd stick by BSD (from a systems programmer type). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathon McKitrick" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Joerg B. Micheel" ; "Steven M. Schultz" ; ; "FreeBSD Chat" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 > > Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i > believe Greg wrote the second group of lines.... > > >> That would make quite an interesting test. How much does > >> ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? > > > >Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that > >many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer > >connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see > >what they think. > > Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net > seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp > connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed > that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running > now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed > difference. > > -=> jm <=- > > "I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things.... > Revel in your time!" > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 6:24:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F9314EF0 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:24:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12ECJw-000Fek-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:20 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA65406; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:19 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:24:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: John Rosenberg Cc: Greg Lehey , "Joerg B. Micheel" , "Steven M. Schultz" , pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <002001bf6996$34389ec0$b439bfa8@home> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are growing on the desktop, or in general? Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 6:38:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pouet.noc.fr.clara.net (headache.noc.fr.clara.net [212.43.195.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55CB414F51 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:38:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sameh@fr.clara.net) Received: by pouet.noc.fr.clara.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0F193333; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:37:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:37:29 +0100 From: Sameh Ghane To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: John Rosenberg , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000128153729.A64438@noc.fr.clara.net> References: <002001bf6996$34389ec0$b439bfa8@home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 02:24:19PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Le Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 02:24:19PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick écrivit: > > I'm a little concerned where all this leaves FreeBSD. If Solaris goes > open source, or something similar, and tries to compete with w2k, plus > linux is out there growing, and BeOS will be free soon.... FreeBSD might be a > tough sell. Several guys i know say the majority of new unix installs > are Linux with few BSD. They say the only BSD users that are growing > are ISPs. Does anyone have any stats on how fast we are > growing on the desktop, or in general? What's the aim of FreeBSD ? Being used by ISPs as a reliable, fast, secure and powerful OS, or being used at home by multimedia users ? I hope it's the first one. FreeBSD is even flexible enough to give me good workstations also, I don't feel this like a problem not being able to replace windows workstations. -- Sameh Ghane To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 6:45:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8868515219 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:45:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12ECeY-000IR3-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:45:38 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA65707; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:45:38 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:45:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Sameh Ghane Cc: John Rosenberg , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000128153729.A64438@noc.fr.clara.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Sameh Ghane wrote: >FreeBSD is even flexible enough to give me good workstations also, I don't >feel this like a problem not being able to replace windows workstations. Not sure if i understand you here. You feel you CAN or CANNOT replace windows workstations with FreeBSD? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 7:19:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pouet.noc.fr.clara.net (headache.noc.fr.clara.net [212.43.195.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA72415D35 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:19:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sameh@fr.clara.net) Received: by pouet.noc.fr.clara.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2AA33369; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:18:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:18:56 +0100 From: Sameh Ghane To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: John Rosenberg , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000128161856.B64438@noc.fr.clara.net> References: <20000128153729.A64438@noc.fr.clara.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 02:45:38PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Le Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 02:45:38PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick écrivit: > On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Sameh Ghane wrote: > >FreeBSD is even flexible enough to give me good workstations also, I don't > >feel this like a problem not being able to replace windows workstations. > > Not sure if i understand you here. You feel you CAN or CANNOT replace > windows workstations with FreeBSD? I think it depends on which users we're talking about. I don't care if freebsd could replace windows workstations, as I don't think it could bring enough compared to the work needed to make freebsd look like windows. FreeBSD is already a good choice, between workstation and server. We can do both, but acting like windows could make freebsd lose its advantages. -- Sameh Ghane To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 7:56:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B7D15CBA; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:56:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA62765; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:56:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Myths From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jan 2000 16:56:25 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is *just* the thing to drop in your boss' mailbox if you're having trouble convincing him that Open Source is just as viable as commercial software. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 8:17:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5AF15C83 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:17:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12EE5H-000IFE-00 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:17:19 +0200 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:17:19 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: (Of interest to South Africans) - Fwd: FREEBSD: CLUG Open Source Meeting, Tue 1 Feb 2000, 18h30 Message-ID: <20000128181719.A68532@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Organization: Rhodes University Computer Users' Society X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I was behind organizing a meeting in conjunction with a local LUG for a meeting, and I would like to invite other South Africans in the Western Cape area who use FreeBSD (or OpenBSD, NetBSD, and whatever else) to support it and attend. Sheldon Hearn and Mark Murray should also be in attendance, lending a little credibility to my in(s)anity (:. This might be one of the biggest get-togethers in the country, and everyone is invited to the Dros in Newlands (subject to change) afterwards for drinks and general merriment. Directions are available, and lifts might possibly be organizable. Interested people can mail me for more information. (although I'll only get to it on Monday - weekend can phone Cape Town 797 3608, if you're really desparate, and don't mind not getting answered if I'm out). ----- Forwarded message from Michael-John Turner ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:36:45 +0200 From: Michael-John Turner To: Cape Linux Users' Announcements Cc: freebsd@os.org.za Subject: FREEBSD: CLUG Open Source Meeting, Tue 1 Feb 2000, 18h30 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd@os.org.za Reply-To: freebsd@os.org.za Hi CLUG will be holding the first of its "Open Source" meetings this coming Tuesday 1 February. The venue is Chem Eng, Upper Ring Road, UCT, 6:30pm (the same venue used for CLUG meetings). Directions can be found at the CLUG website - http://www.clug.org.za/meetings.php3. The topic for this inaugural meeting is "FreeBSD" (yes, a rather large topic, but one I think all CLUG members will find interesting :) and Neil Blakey-Milner will be giving the main presentation. We had hoped to have a presentation on OpenBSD as well, but this has had to be postponed as the presenter will be overseas on Tuesday. CLUG is hoping that this will be the first in a series of monthly meetings focusing on more advanced topics and topics that have a wider, less Linux-centric focus than those covered in the general CLUG meetings. As usual, all are welcome and we look forward to your attendance. BTW, if anyone is interested in giving a talk on a particular subject, please don't hesitate to contact me or any of the other committee members. -mj -- Michael-John Turner | http://www.edr.uct.ac.za/~mj/ mj@phantom.eri.uct.ac.za | Linux @ UCT -> http://www.leg.uct.ac.za/ mj@debian.org, mj@icon.co.za | PGP key via mail, WWW or finger @phantom ----- End forwarded message ----- Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 8:25:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0611714BF1 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:25:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12EECk-000JMH-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:25:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA66889 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:25:02 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:25:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: costs for solaris vs windows Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In this article: http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/22/solaris8.ent.idg/index.html it was claimed that "data centers running Windows 2000 will cost one-fifth to one-third of the price of a Unix-based system and will also offer customers significant savings over Unix in terms of TC0." Is this possible? I thought the reason many companies were going back to Unix was because of lower costs? Or is this just referring to commercial Unix? And since when has M$ offered value as one of its selling points? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 10: 4: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts1.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B2C14C4A for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:04:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.nowhere ([206.172.236.15]) by tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.07 201-229-116-107) with ESMTP id <20000128180131.IGOV627.tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost.nowhere>; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:01:31 -0500 Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA22955; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:31:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from tim) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:31:57 -0500 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: do not use this address , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors Message-ID: <20000128123157.A22893@mad> References: <38913B93.042D@funbox.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 01:06:28PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 01:06:28PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > neat. Of all the scripting languages, is there a simple way to sum up > the differences between Perl, TCL, and Python? And what is expectk? Tcl is not a scripting language. It is merely abused as one. -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 11: 5: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C611215B2C for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28595; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:03:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:03:39 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Jason Evans , Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org nope, this is closer to actually detaching your terminal with something running and remotely reattaching it. X has nothing to do with it. 'screen' here referring to the actual utility, not screen as in monitor screen. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Pat Lynch wrote: > >I find screen excellent for alot of uses, one being the fact that I can be > >working on something at work, detach the screen and resume it when I get > >home. > > Is this in any way similar to a remote xclient/server combo? > > -=> jm <=- > > If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does anybody > care? > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 11:11:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B096715B82 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:11:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12EGna-000MKg-00; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:11:14 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA68581; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:11:10 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:11:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Pat Lynch Cc: Jason Evans , Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Pat Lynch wrote: >nope, this is closer to actually detaching your terminal with something >running and remotely reattaching it. X has nothing to do with it. > >'screen' here referring to the actual utility, not screen as in monitor >screen. Well,that i understand. What i don't get is what the screen utility does. It looks to me like it almost simulates a console with whatever properties you want. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 11:59:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE6415C1F for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:59:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24082; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:57:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:57:28 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Pat Lynch , Jason Evans , Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Well,that i understand. What i don't get is what the screen utility > does. It looks to me like it almost simulates a console with whatever > properties you want. How people manage to use unix on a day to day basis without screen really amazes me. Screen is a TTY multiplexor. It allows you to create new sessions controlled by your terminal and switch between them. Think of it as VTYs for any generic TTY. You use ^A-space/^A-[0-9] instead of the F-keys. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 12:11:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478EE1600C for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:11:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23571; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:11:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:10:15 -0700 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Myths In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alas, it's factually incorrect on several points. In particular, it credits Stallman with originating the idea of open source software "in 1984." --Brett At 08:56 AM 1/28/2000 , Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > >This is *just* the thing to drop in your boss' mailbox if you're >having trouble convincing him that Open Source is just as viable as >commercial software. > >DES >-- >Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 14:22:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bofh.ops.uunet.co.za (bofh.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521B515CBC for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:22:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khetan@uunet.co.za) Received: by bofh.ops.uunet.co.za (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 335075BB6; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:22:23 +0200 (SAST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.ops.uunet.co.za (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1A81EB1; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:22:23 +0200 (SAST) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:22:23 +0200 (SAST) From: Khetan Gajjar X-Sender: khetan@bofh.ops.uunet.co.za To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Around Yesterday, "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote : MND> How people manage to use unix on a day to day basis without screen really MND> amazes me. X :) MND> Screen is a TTY multiplexor. It allows you to create new sessions MND> controlled by your terminal and switch between them. Think of it as VTYs MND> for any generic TTY. You use ^A-space/^A-[0-9] instead of the F-keys. Screen has other useful properties, like built-in cut and paste, support for up to 9 sessions per VT (meaning you could theoretically have 108 real, easily usable sessions), etc, etc. The nicest function of screen though for me is the detach function. You can detach from your screen, and logout. The processes and everything associated with them will still run as if you are logged in. When you want to log back in, re-attach to that screen session, and it's like you never left. It's also great for situations where you may loose connectivity (for some or other reason). When connectivity is restored, you can simply re-attach to the screen. Khetan Gajjar. --- khetan@uunet.co.za * khetan@os.org.za * PGP Key, contact UUNET South Africa * FreeBSD enthusiast * details and other http://www.uunet.co.za * http://www.freebsd.org * information at System Administration * http://office.os.org.za * kg+details@uunet.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 14:25:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bofh.ops.uunet.co.za (bofh.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 270D415CDB for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:25:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khetan@uunet.co.za) Received: by bofh.ops.uunet.co.za (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A22035BB6; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:25:16 +0200 (SAST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.ops.uunet.co.za (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0421EB1; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:25:16 +0200 (SAST) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:25:16 +0200 (SAST) From: Khetan Gajjar X-Sender: khetan@bofh.ops.uunet.co.za To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (Of interest to South Africans) - Fwd: FREEBSD: CLUG Open Source Meeting, Tue 1 Feb 2000, 18h30 In-Reply-To: <20000128181719.A68532@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Around Yesterday, "Neil Blakey-Milner" wrote : NB> Sheldon Hearn and Mark Murray should also be in attendance, lending NB> a little credibility to my in(s)anity (:. This might be one of And a bit more fun to the standard heckling :) NB> From: Michael-John Turner Might I just add that MJ is a FreeBSD user, even though he's a Debian committer. I believe that his workstation is a FreeBSD box. Khetan Gajjar. --- khetan@uunet.co.za * khetan@os.org.za * PGP Key, contact UUNET South Africa * FreeBSD enthusiast * details and other http://www.uunet.co.za * http://www.freebsd.org * information at System Administration * http://office.os.org.za * kg+details@uunet.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 14:31: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A1B14CEB for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:31:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26969; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:30:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:30:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Khetan Gajjar Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Khetan Gajjar wrote: > Screen has other useful properties, like built-in cut and paste, > support for up to 9 sessions per VT (meaning you could theoretically > have 108 real, easily usable sessions), etc, etc. Wait, you mean you guys don't run screen inside of screen? Sheesh. I've been pushing ^A's down 2 or 3 levels for years. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 14:39:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from canonware.com (canonware.com [207.20.242.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A86E915CB4 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:39:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: (qmail 84232 invoked by uid 1001); 28 Jan 2000 22:36:39 -0000 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:36:39 -0800 From: Jason Evans To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Khetan Gajjar , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-ID: <20000128143639.V73462@sturm.canonware.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from winter@jurai.net on Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:30:57PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 05:30:57PM -0500, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > Wait, you mean you guys don't run screen inside of screen? Sheesh. > > I've been pushing ^A's down 2 or 3 levels for years. OMG. Hard-core. The newest version of screen doesn't limit you to 10 VTs. It's necessary to use ^A " to get to them, but I've on occasion had 15 or 20 VTs going. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 14:45: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bofh.ops.uunet.co.za (bofh.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9B515CF1 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:45:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khetan@uunet.co.za) Received: by bofh.ops.uunet.co.za (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AEC435BB6; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:44:58 +0200 (SAST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.ops.uunet.co.za (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DAF1EA5; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:44:58 +0200 (SAST) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:44:58 +0200 (SAST) From: Khetan Gajjar X-Sender: khetan@bofh.ops.uunet.co.za To: Jason Evans Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <20000128143639.V73462@sturm.canonware.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Around Yesterday, "Jason Evans" wrote : JE> > I've been pushing ^A's down 2 or 3 levels for years. JE> JE> OMG. Hard-core. No, plain insane ;-) JE> The newest version of screen doesn't limit you to 10 VTs. It's necessary JE> to use ^A " to get to them, but I've on occasion had 15 or 20 JE> VTs going. Ag well. My philosophy is that if I can't get it into my 12 xterms, it's not worth having. Drives the console-hugging, screen-lovers in my office nuts. Khetan Gajjar. --- khetan@uunet.co.za * khetan@os.org.za * PGP Key, contact UUNET South Africa * FreeBSD enthusiast * details and other http://www.uunet.co.za * http://www.freebsd.org * information at System Administration * http://office.os.org.za * kg+details@uunet.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 19:19:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1393C150E5 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA28002; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:49:28 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:49:28 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc Message-ID: <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 28 January 2000 at 13:10:15 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:56 AM 1/28/2000 , Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >> >> >> This is *just* the thing to drop in your boss' mailbox if you're >> having trouble convincing him that Open Source is just as viable as >> commercial software. > > Alas, it's factually incorrect on several points. In particular, it > credits Stallman with originating the idea of open source software > "in 1984." Well, no, that's not what it says. To quote: The decision by AT&T to commercialize Unix in 1984 prompted the first attempt to organize the concept of free software ("free" as in freedom, not free of charge) around a license and a development project (see Note 2). What part of that do you consider incorrect? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 19:48:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A3D31563F for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:48:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27551; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:48:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20000128224826.A27223@netmonger.net> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:48:26 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc References: <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:49:28PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 01:49:28PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 28 January 2000 at 13:10:15 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > Alas, it's factually incorrect on several points. In particular, it > > credits Stallman with originating the idea of open source software > > "in 1984." > > Well, no, that's not what it says. To quote: > > The decision by AT&T to commercialize Unix in 1984 prompted the > first attempt to organize the concept of free software ("free" as in > freedom, not free of charge) around a license and a development > project (see Note 2). > > What part of that do you consider incorrect? Just ignore him, he hates GNU so much, the mere mention of rms destroys any chance he has of reacting objectively. -- Christopher Masto Senior Network Monkey NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 21:33:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.maine.rr.com (mail.maine.rr.com [204.210.65.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2334D15B3D for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:33:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lethvian@maine.rr.com) Received: from maine.rr.com ([24.93.136.131]) by mail.maine.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:32:59 -0500 Message-ID: <3892A4B4.EF16207D@maine.rr.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:28:36 -0800 From: "Daniel J. Frost" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200001201106.MAA69559@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org unsubscribe freebsd-chat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 28 22:32:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977B314E12 for ; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:32:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adsharma@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA17774; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:32:22 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:32:22 -0800 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200001290632.WAA17774@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc In-Reply-To: <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Alas, it's factually incorrect on several points. In particular, it > > credits Stallman with originating the idea of open source software > > "in 1984." > > Well, no, that's not what it says. To quote: > > The decision by AT&T to commercialize Unix in 1984 prompted the > first attempt to organize the concept of free software ("free" as in > freedom, not free of charge) around a license and a development > project (see Note 2). > > What part of that do you consider incorrect? The interesting part is the definition of "free", which has been a point of contention lately. I don't think RMS accepts 1984 Unix as free software. I don't think it meets ESR's Open source definition either. The "free as in speech and not free as in beer" campaign has been very successful as a marketing campaign. Traditional UNIX and lately Solaris 8 make it even more interesting. They also are "free as in speech" provided you pay fat sums of money. My assessment is that this only highlights the logical flaw in the above campaign. Free as in speech and free as in beer are one and the same, because the motivation to curtail the freedom comes from the money. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 11:59:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC9A152FC for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:59:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000129195912.QLGA26912.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A>; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:59:12 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: "'Jonathon McKitrick'" , "'freebsd-chat'" Subject: RE: costs for solaris vs windows Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:59:05 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf6a93$4c58fba0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well the number came directly from the MS marketing department so you know it must be correct right? And in a related article at: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20000129/tc/20000130080.html MS has released the first patch for win2000 THREE WEEKS BEFORE they release the product. Apparently (surprise, surprise) some security holes that needed to be patched. John Purser -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jonathon McKitrick Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 8:25 AM To: freebsd-chat Subject: costs for solaris vs windows In this article: http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/22/solaris8.ent.idg/index.html it was claimed that "data centers running Windows 2000 will cost one-fifth to one-third of the price of a Unix-based system and will also offer customers significant savings over Unix in terms of TC0." Is this possible? I thought the reason many companies were going back to Unix was because of lower costs? Or is this just referring to commercial Unix? And since when has M$ offered value as one of its selling points? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 12:12:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E0E15310; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:12:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000129201210.QOVW26912.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A>; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:12:10 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: , Subject: @home.com's e-mail problems Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:12:02 -0800 Message-ID: <000301bf6a95$1b984aa0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is anyone else out there getting fed up with the periodic e-mail outages on the @home network? In my experience they go down about once a week. For the last three days my mail has come straggling in up to 12 hours after it was sent! While most of the @home support people don't know what OS they are running (or why it's not running now, or why it died yesterday, or why no one in Vancouver can connect at all, or how an entire state(s) can drop off the network without anyone @home noticing, or ... the list goes on) I pressed the one I was talking to today and she went and asked. The story she came back with was that the e-mail was handled by NT servers. I sent an e-mail expressing my frustration and pointed out that even MS doesn't use NT for heavy duty e-mail service. I suggested they look into FreeBSD as a way of upgrading their technology and reliability. If they receive this suggestion from enough people they might start listening. Especially now. Wednesday when I called in the second tier support person I spoke to told me that the @home e-mail was down for the entire US and they didn't know why! If they received multiple e-mails suggesting FreeBSD as an alternative with helpful contacts at Yahoo, Walnut Creek, or HotMail then we might get another large commercial user to join the ranks! John Purser To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 13: 6:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.psn.net (pluto.psn.net [207.211.58.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1579315130 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:06:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@shadow.blackdawn.com) Received: from 23-114.008.popsite.net ([209.69.197.114] helo=shadow.blackdawn.com) by pluto.psn.net with esmtp (PSN Internet Service 3.12 #1) id 12Ef3U-0001OS-00; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:05:20 -0700 Received: by shadow.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 159A51B3A; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:04:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:04:09 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: John Purser Cc: 'Jonathon McKitrick' , 'freebsd-chat' Subject: Re: costs for solaris vs windows Message-ID: <20000129160409.G45988@shadow.blackdawn.com> References: <000001bf6a93$4c58fba0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <000001bf6a93$4c58fba0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com>; from johnmpurser@home.com on Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 11:59:05AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 11:59:05AM -0800, John Purser wrote: > Well the number came directly from the MS marketing department so you know > it must be correct right? Excuse me while I die laughing. I don't suppose you've ever worked in a _real_ company (i.e., one with a lot of $), where they actually have a substantial marketing dept. The fact is, marketing depts around the world are !@#%!@#% morons who do anything to boost their company's image, even if it hurts the tech dept. And no, don't ask me for any references... > In this article: > http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/22/solaris8.ent.idg/index.html ^^^^^^^^ Didn't you notice this? > it was claimed that "data centers running Windows 2000 will cost > one-fifth to one-third of the price of a Unix-based system and will > also offer customers significant savings over Unix in terms of TC0." > > Is this possible? I thought the reason many companies were going back > to Unix was because of lower costs? Or is this just referring to > commercial Unix? And since when has M$ offered value as one of its > selling points? Yes, I imagine they're referring to things such as Solaris, Digital UNIX, and BSD/OS. I honestly couldn't give a rat's behind about that.. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 13:48:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB56162E0 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:48:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Efj3-0000kX-00; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:48:13 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA87024; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:48:13 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:48:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Will Andrews Cc: John Purser , "'freebsd-chat'" Subject: Re: costs for solaris vs windows In-Reply-To: <20000129160409.G45988@shadow.blackdawn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Will Andrews wrote: >> In this article: >> http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/22/solaris8.ent.idg/index.html > ^^^^^^^^ > >Didn't you notice this? I don't quite understand the URL.... does that mean it is a solaris node? > >> Is this possible? I thought the reason many companies were going back >> to Unix was because of lower costs? Or is this just referring to >> commercial Unix? And since when has M$ offered value as one of its >> selling points? > >Yes, I imagine they're referring to things such as Solaris, Digital >UNIX, and BSD/OS. I honestly couldn't give a rat's behind about that.. I'm not quite sure i follow you. You don't care about commercial Unix costs? Or what they are saying about the comparison? > >-- >Will Andrews >GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- >?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ >G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? > -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 13:56:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.psn.net (pluto.psn.net [207.211.58.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F58160E9 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:55:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@shadow.blackdawn.com) Received: from 23-114.008.popsite.net ([209.69.197.114] helo=shadow.blackdawn.com) by pluto.psn.net with esmtp (PSN Internet Service 3.12 #1) id 12Efp8-0004nI-00; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:54:32 -0700 Received: by shadow.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E5D421B39; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:54:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:54:22 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Will Andrews , John Purser , 'freebsd-chat' Subject: Re: costs for solaris vs windows Message-ID: <20000129165422.I45988@shadow.blackdawn.com> References: <20000129160409.G45988@shadow.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 09:48:13PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 09:48:13PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I don't quite understand the URL.... does that mean it is a solaris > node? What it _PROBABLY_ means is that that particular area of cnn involves solaris issues. Therefore, it has nothing to do with us. > >Yes, I imagine they're referring to things such as Solaris, Digital > >UNIX, and BSD/OS. I honestly couldn't give a rat's behind about that.. > > I'm not quite sure i follow you. You don't care about commercial Unix costs? > Or what they are saying about the comparison? I don't care about comparisons between Windows something and some commercial Unix. I would only care if they were making valid comparisons between SomeOS and FreeBSD. And if they actually published details. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 13:59:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10AF116731 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:58:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12EftK-0000ss-00; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:58:50 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA87134; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:58:50 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:58:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Will Andrews Cc: John Purser , "'freebsd-chat'" Subject: Re: costs for solaris vs windows In-Reply-To: <20000129165422.I45988@shadow.blackdawn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Will Andrews wrote: >I don't care about comparisons between Windows something and some >commercial Unix. I would only care if they were making valid comparisons >between SomeOS and FreeBSD. And if they actually published details. Well, i just think most people won't be that discerning when they read reports that Windows is cheaper to run than Unix. To most people, Unix is Unix. It is tough enough explaining that Linux is not Unix, let alone FreeBSD. Of course, we really *are* unix. ;-) -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 14: 7:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8EB14C5A for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Eg1G-00011o-00; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:07:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA87238; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:06:57 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:06:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Sameh Ghane Cc: John Rosenberg , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 In-Reply-To: <20000128153729.A64438@noc.fr.clara.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Sameh Ghane wrote: > >What's the aim of FreeBSD ? Being used by ISPs as a reliable, fast, secure >and powerful OS, or being used at home by multimedia users ? > >I hope it's the first one. Well, since right now i just run FreeBSD on a laptop as a workstation for day-to-day tasks and programming, i want it to be more than just a server. I wish they hadn't dropped their old slogan or goal of "turning PCs into workstations". And that means that i *do* care about at least basic multimedia and graphics use. > >FreeBSD is even flexible enough to give me good workstations also, I don't >feel this like a problem not being able to replace windows workstations. > >-- >Sameh Ghane > -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 14:36:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from canonware.com (canonware.com [207.20.242.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C6FA157BD for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: (qmail 91874 invoked by uid 1001); 29 Jan 2000 22:33:15 -0000 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:33:15 -0800 From: Jason Evans To: John Purser Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems Message-ID: <20000129143315.C73462@sturm.canonware.com> References: <000301bf6a95$1b984aa0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <000301bf6a95$1b984aa0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com>; from johnmpurser@home.com on Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:12:02PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:12:02PM -0800, John Purser wrote: > I sent an e-mail expressing my frustration and pointed out that even MS > doesn't use NT for heavy duty e-mail service. I suggested they look into > FreeBSD as a way of upgrading their technology and reliability. > > If they receive this suggestion from enough people they might start > listening. Especially now. Wednesday when I called in the second tier > support person I spoke to told me that the @home e-mail was down for the > entire US and they didn't know why! If they received multiple e-mails > suggesting FreeBSD as an alternative with helpful contacts at Yahoo, Walnut > Creek, or HotMail then we might get another large commercial user to join > the ranks! I worked at Critical Path (CP), an email outsourcer, for over a year. During that year, there were a quite a number of service outages. CP runs its services on a combination of Solaris and FreeBSD boxes. That CP doesn't use NT is a definite plus, but it couldn't begin to make up for the real problem: business goals do not emphasize reliability. If reliability were a goal, I expect CP could do about as well using NT as FreeBSD (though not for the same cost). @home may be different, but I doubt it. FreeBSD isn't a magical solution to all the world's evils; it's just an (IMO very good) operating system. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 14:39:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D7315EB7 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:39:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12EgWD-0001M7-00; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:39:01 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA87554; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:39:00 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:39:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: tim.j@funbox.demon.co.uk Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <38913B93.042D@funbox.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >IMO, trouble with [X]emacs is that you end up writing quite a bit of >code to customise it, and personally I find other scripting languages >(Perl, TCL, Python) more congenial than [e]lisp. These days I use >my own editor, written in TCL (expectk, actually). > Let me make sure i understand: TCL = GUI toolkit Perl = text scripting language Python = java alternative interpreted language??? And what is expectk? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 15:34: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sprig.tougas.net (h24-66-217-148.xx.wave.shaw.ca [24.66.217.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8640A1509B for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:34:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtougas@sprig.tougas.net) Received: (from dtougas@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA70081 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:35:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dtougas) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:35:56 -0700 From: Damien Tougas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: GUIs are flawed Message-ID: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One of the beauties of Unix, and one the many reasons that it is so powerful is the power and flexibility that one has in a command line shell. This is somthing that Microsoft and Apple and KDE and GNOME will never equal in a GUI interface. It seems that in order to get any sort of power with a GUI, it gets incredibly bloated. Take a look at Windows 2000 and how many millions of lines of code that they have created just to compete with Unix. I think that KDE and GNOME are great in some respects, but at the same time, I think that they are just going to wind up as bloated and buggy as windows if they keep increasing the complexity of their software. The larger that these projects become, the more difficult the will be to maintain. Don't get me wrong, I think that GUIs defenitely have their advantages, but I also think that perhaps there needs to be a paradigm shift in the way that they are designed in order to sustain future development. Why can't someone create a GUI framework that works more like a command line? -- Small programs/applets that are easy to maintain on their own, but which can be plugged together by the user at will to accomlish the task at hand. Something like this would be great for the open source community because it could be divided into small manageable chunks, while at the same time have incredible power and stablility. Right now, it seems like there are small chunks of code contributed by many, but it also seems like they are either stand alone programs or programming libraries. I have played with KDE a bit, and while it does have some nice features, it really is not all that great. If I want to change the mode on one file, that is not too difficult in kfm, but as soon as I want to change the mode of several, it's back to the command line. Now why couldn't they have created a small program/applet (like chmod) to do this? And allow me to pipe the output from their 'find' applet to the 'chmod' applet? Now that to me would be powerful. More powerful than integrating a web browser into the file manager as far as I'm concerned. I am not complaining, I am just voicing my ideas. If I knew how to program, I might be able to contribute some of these to the community. Anyways, I have lots to say on this subject, but I'll spare you the rest. In the meantime, I guess it's back to the command line. -- Damien Tougas, P.Eng. Phone: (780)434-5889 Fax: (780)434-5889 E-mail: damien@tougas.net http://www.tougas.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 16: 6:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 7DD7314E12; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:06:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <200001290632.WAA17774@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> (message from Arun Sharma on Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:32:22 -0800) Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc Message-Id: <20000130000622.7DD7314E12@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:06:22 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The "free as in speech and not free as in beer" campaign has been very > successful as a marketing campaign. Traditional UNIX and lately Solaris 8 > make it even more interesting. They also are "free as in speech" provided > you pay fat sums of money. > > My assessment is that this only highlights the logical flaw in the above > campaign. Free as in speech and free as in beer are one and the same, > because the motivation to curtail the freedom comes from the money. > "free as in speech"....my obtaining a copy of your speech does not lessen the number of copies that can be made. witness our own cvsup system. once person can cvsup and provide the results to another with decreasing the usefullness of their own csvup (yes, if we all cvsup together it can create a denial of service attack, hence the statement A cvsup's and provides to results to B...not A and B both cvsup). "free as in beer"....if i drink this here beer (its a Bass Pale Ale by appointment to her Majesty the Queen), then you can not drink the very same beer. you could buy another and drink that, but its not the same bottle of beer. that's my understanding of the difference. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 16:28:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30DFC15277 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:28:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12EiE9-0002Wf-00; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:28:29 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA88592; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:28:29 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:28:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Damien Tougas Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed In-Reply-To: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, i agree, the command line is very powerful and can be inherently more stable and maintainable. However, most people in this day and age of quick results don't have thhe time to read a manual and learn a myriad options to do what they want and get punished and have to type the whole line again if they make an error. People want point-and-click, and i think that has its place. Apparently M$ is trying to develop a concept based on COM++ and OLE and ActiveZ that allows many small controls to be tied together with standard interfaces, similar to a pipe, i guess. These little applet would be smaller and more easily maintained. Maybe this is the direction we are heading for the future, especially on the Net. -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 17:40: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from impatience.valueclick.com (impatience.valueclick.com [216.64.159.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E63C41513D for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:40:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ask@valueclick.com) Received: (qmail 27158 invoked by uid 500); 30 Jan 2000 01:40:00 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 30 Jan 2000 01:40:00 -0000 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:40:00 -0800 (PST) From: Ask Bjoern Hansen To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Myths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28 Jan 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > This is *just* the thing to drop in your boss' mailbox if you're > having trouble convincing him that Open Source is just as viable as > commercial software. "The Apache and PERL projects are maintained in large part by full-time employees of O'Reilly and Associates." eh... but it is good to see that something like the GartnerGroup can be so relatively clued. oh well, - ask -- ask bjoern hansen - more than 60M impressions per day, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 18: 7:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (www.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891BC151F5 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:07:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14500; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:51:39 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA91833; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:07:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:07:07 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: delegating ports, interfaces (Re: Multiple IP addresses) In-Reply-To: <200001272330.SAA59699@rtfm.newton> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > Yes, would be nice. Perhaps, as a /tcpip file-system? If I want to > special treat a port on one of the interfaces, I just change the > permissions on the file: > > /tcpip/localhost/tcp/ > /tcpip/localhost/udp/ > /tcpip/10.10.0.1/tcp/80 > > However, this is way outside of -stable and FreeBSD in general. Firewall: # rm -rf /tcpip/*/udp ; [etc] --- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 19:55:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D7E160BD for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:55:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA56043; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:25:06 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:25:06 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Newton Cc: TrouBle , Warner Losh , Andy Farkas , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: PAIN Message-ID: <20000130142506.E55643@freebie.lemis.com> References: <200001300049.RAA10279@harmony.village.org> <38938E12.92EF9ABE@netquick.net> <20000130141245.C55643@freebie.lemis.com> <20000130141916.A42942@internode.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000130141916.A42942@internode.com.au> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Sunday, 30 January 2000 at 14:19:16 +1030, Mark Newton wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 02:12:45PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Saturday, 29 January 2000 at 20:04:18 -0500, TrouBle wrote: >>> Just imagine, too bad its not an 8086 or a 286 prolly take a month or so..... >> >> I did a make world on my PDP-11 yesterday. It took less than a day. > > ... to parse the Makefile :-) No, in fact it's surprisingly fast. Low ballast, of course. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 20:33:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15D515314 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:31:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id FAA16372 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:31:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16760 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:25:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed Date: 30 Jan 2000 04:25:51 +0100 Message-ID: <870avv$gba$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Damien Tougas wrote: > One of the beauties of Unix, and one the many reasons that it is so > powerful is the power and flexibility that one has in a command > line shell. Mike Gancarz has a wonderful little book out, _The Unix Philosophy_, which examines these issues. Recommended. The command line allows you to *interface* programs, mostly through pipes, and to use files as data sources and destinations. Yes, programs need to hammer out all data as flat text streams and reconvert them into internal representations. Not as sexy as exchanging persistent objects in binary form, but it works. Since you can interface programs, you can use the approach of many small specialized tools that can be combined as needed. Now add a simple language with basic flow controls and text substitution (sh) and a dependency evaluator (make). Presto you have a very powerful toolchest to *automate* tasks. GUI applications are centered around an event loop to read user input and return results as bitmap displays. There part of the larger class of *captive interfaces*. GUI applications don't lend themselves to interfacing to each other or being controlled by another program. As the toolchest approach breaks down, GUI applications need to handle ever increasing amounts of functionality themselves. You get runaway bloat. GUI applications are of course still useful at both ends of the processing pipeline, i.e. users inputting and displaying data. Integration of the processing step is the point where development starts going wrong. > Don't get me wrong, I think that GUIs defenitely have their advantages, > but I also think that perhaps there needs to be a paradigm shift in the > way that they are designed in order to sustain future development. I'm impatiently waiting for a much greater paradigm shift. The step towards post-GUI interfaces. GUIs have been with us for two decades now, basically unchanged except for minor cosmetics. The concept is stale. GUIs can't be the endpoint of all interface development. What's next? > Why can't someone create a GUI framework that works more like a command > line? -- Small programs/applets that are easy to maintain on their own, > but which can be plugged together by the user at will to accomlish > the task at hand. If you talk to Torben Weis (KDE) about his KOffice project, he'll tell you that he indeed implements such an approach, and I presume this is more or less rooted in KDE's workings in general. He has working demos to illustrate this. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 20:33:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE271534F for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:31:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id FAA16374 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:31:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA17617 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:57:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed Date: 30 Jan 2000 04:57:06 +0100 Message-ID: <870cqi$h68$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Well, i agree, the command line is very powerful and can be inherently > more stable and maintainable. However, most people in this day and > age of quick results don't have thhe time to read a manual and learn a > myriad options to do what they want and get punished and have to type > the whole line again if they make an error. People want > point-and-click, and i think that has its place. Sure captive user interfaces have their place. Think editors. Sure graphical interfaces have their place. Think print previews or graphical representation of data (plots). Even point-and-click has its places. If you have a drawing program (an editor for graphically constructed data sets) a point-and-click interface seems natural. I'm thoroughly a Unix person. (Probably more so and much more purely so than many a loud-mouthed advocate.) One disturbing thing I have noticed about PC users for a long time (even before MS-Windows; this was already apparent when MS-DOS was king; it's really a captive user interface thing) is their willingness to suffer, to do the computer's work, and to redefine their problems to fit the available tools. This becomes painfully apparent when you watch them confronting the Unix world. Observe new Unix users with a PC background and cringe. Say there's a way to do a certain task by entering three keystrokes or mouse clicks interactively in an application. If that same task has to be repeated a hundred or a thousand times, PC users will happily sit down and repeat the manual input for that number of times. They won't say, this is absurd, I refuse to do this, this is a machine's task, let's find a way to have the machine do it. They won't even conceive of this idea. It's an alien concept for them. The icing on the cake is when they redefine the real world problem until it can be solved with the available tools. PC users can't conceive of a toolchest. For each problem, a single program must provide an exact solution. If it doesn't, they will do any remaining work manually, no matter how mind-numbing. If the task is clearly impossible or they break down in exhaustion, they will redefine the real world problem. "I can't change the company's name in 1000 web pages. Hey, changing it in the 100 most frequently requested ones will suffice. Nobody will notice." Sociologists often gibber about computer user's turning into slaves of the machine rather than the other way around. It doesn't sound as ridiculous anymore once you see how PC users debase themselves, and do the most grueling, repetitive, mind-numbing work unfit for humans. (And of course the sociologists' computer experience is as PC users.) > Apparently M$ is trying to develop a concept based on COM++ and OLE > and ActiveZ that allows many small controls to be tied together with > standard interfaces, similar to a pipe, i guess. Who doesn't? KDE certainly aims to go that way, and GNOME probably too. Somebody call me when they're finished so I can take a look. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 29 21:10:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4893D15F7D for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:10:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA57090; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:10:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:10:12 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: Ask Bjoern Hansen Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Myths Message-ID: <20000129211011.B56937@wopr.caltech.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from ask@valueclick.com on Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:40:00PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:40:00PM -0800, Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote: > "The Apache and PERL projects are maintained in large part by full-time > employees of O'Reilly and Associates." > > eh... I heard that they hired Larry Wall for that purpose. Dunno about Apache. -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message