From owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Tue Feb 25 15:11:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCDC025E045 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:11:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from colo1.denninger.net (colo1.denninger.net [104.236.120.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Rj7g1QZbz4RWd for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:11:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from denninger.net (ip68-1-57-197.pn.at.cox.net [68.1.57.197]) by colo1.denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F07B211099 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (unknown [96.33.194.164]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D69F52338BA for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 09:11:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Running FreeBSD on M.2 SSD To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <202002250115.01P1F9KX090465@mail.karels.net> <188F34DA-192C-4D44-96B5-18A7DAE8EC67@digsys.bg> <6028c786-8610-01d9-818e-6f69a2fe9645@ingresso.co.uk> <20200225145346.GA42880@phouka1.phouka.net> From: Karl Denninger Message-ID: <6e329bb8-b96e-fa16-cc73-426685593943@denninger.net> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:11:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200225145346.GA42880@phouka1.phouka.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-512; boundary="------------ms010102090901010103080904" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Rj7g1QZbz4RWd X-Spamd-Bar: ------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=denninger.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of karl@denninger.net designates 104.236.120.189 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=karl@denninger.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-7.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[denninger.net,none]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~,4:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:104.236.64.0/18, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.57)[ip: (-9.84), ipnet: 104.236.64.0/18(-4.43), asn: 14061(1.45), country: US(-0.05)]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[197.57.1.68.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11] X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:11:27 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms010102090901010103080904 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/25/2020 9:53 AM, John Kennedy wrote: > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 11:07:48AM +0000, Pete French wrote: >> I have often wondered if ZFS is more aggressive with discs, because un= til >> very recently any solid state drive I have used ZFS on broke very quic= ky. ... > I've always wondered if ZFS (and other snapshotting file systems) wo= uld help > kill SSD disks by locking up blocks longer than other filesystems might= =2E For > example, I've got snapshot-backups going back, say, a year then those b= locks > that haven't changed aren't going back into the pool to be rewritten (a= nd > perhaps favored because of low write-cycle count). As the disk fills u= p, the > blocks that aren't locked up get reused more and more, leading to extra= wear > on them. Eventually one of those will get to the point of erroring out= =2E > > Personally, I just size generously but that isn't always an option f= or > everybody. I have a ZFS RaidZ2 on SSDs that has been running for several /years=20 /without any problems.=C2=A0 The drives are Intel 730s, which Intel CLAIM= S=20 don't have power-loss protection but in fact appear to; not only do they = have caps in them but in addition they pass a "pull the cord out of the=20 wall and then check to see if the data is corrupted on restart" test on=20 a repeated basis, which I did several times before trusting them. BTW essentially all non-data-center SSDs fail that test and some fail it = spectacularly (destroying the OS due to some of the in-flight data being = comingled on an allocated block with something important; if the=20 read/erase/write cycle interrupts you're cooked as the "other" data that = was not being modified gets destroyed too!) -- the Intels are one of the = very, very few that have passed it. --=20 -- Karl Denninger /The Market-Ticker/ S/MIME Email accepted and preferred --------------ms010102090901010103080904 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgMFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC DdgwggagMIIEiKADAgECAhMA5EiKghDOXrvfxYxjITXYDdhIMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMIGL MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEQMA4GA1UECAwHRmxvcmlkYTESMBAGA1UEBwwJTmljZXZpbGxlMRkw 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