From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 01:16:36 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA27106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:16:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from noc@hdk5.net) Received: from guam10.hdk5.net (guam10.hdk5.net [66.180.132.235]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011B08FC13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:16:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mohawk7.intra.net (unknown [66.180.149.18]) by guam10.hdk5.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB911CC47 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:16:34 -1000 (HST) Message-ID: <4D5730F2.6060803@hdk5.net> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:16:34 -1000 From: Al Plant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 FreeBSD/i386 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Add dhcp wlan on existing static lan X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:16:36 -0000 Aloha, I want to add a dhcp NetGear WPN824v3 wireless leg for 2 laptops (1 MS7 and 1 Ubuntu Linux) on my existing static IP lan of 10 desktops and servers (all FreeBSD). I run fixed IP on both segments now using 192.168.1.x addresses but would like to have dhcp segment on the wireless side since the laptops have to be reconfigured every time they come back on my home/office lan. Has anyone on our list had experience with this or knows of a how-to? Thanks, ~Al Plant - Honolulu, Hawaii - Phone: 808-284-2740 + http://hawaiidakine.com + http://freebsdinfo.org + + http://aloha50.net - Supporting - FreeBSD 7.2 - 8.0 - 9* + < email: noc@hdk5.net > "All that's really worth doing is what we do for others."- Lewis Carrol From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 03:14:13 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E88106566C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 03:14:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xxjack12xx@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ey0-f182.google.com (mail-ey0-f182.google.com [209.85.215.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B16D8FC12 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 03:14:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by eyf6 with SMTP id 6so1882709eyf.13 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:14:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NWjlSSVND2dpKrW3Tj1Pj3ZMekTgpQfuR7iJ8dYMjcE=; b=PGWByfdslDKm17BiT9MAjXxEro0cI2AIfITwGeQniQigUESzbIz5rpW8g+XLknr2yF 80FPDkToGr6uygWcW0kzTCTwpSc+Yzg/BD+aG+k432mjBwRqi7Zq8avEag6r1pjE3JvC 6Z746j94Yc8+gwR5yZju+/SwX6DrR825j8uBc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tT76o1hCdegewTdlmkzLDt9RqvwP2eJl4JHpy9Z0PneMqOA+zm3d9XROfjzMuHetuy L8z4yQf/q8MAZH9zb42J4hEqrMgaZphzh8FHxoB7EkPKsiqZONxSF0endS4K+vv7iz+M W3DRYiCMME6nn7HrEOpMnCbcywOc6OHbipGks= Received: by 10.14.53.65 with SMTP id f41mr2260810eec.41.1297565258269; Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:47:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.31.161 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:47:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: "Jack L." Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:47:14 -0800 Message-ID: To: Robert Ames Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Recording from sound card X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 03:14:13 -0000 On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Robert Ames wrote= : > > I'm having problems trying to record from a sound card under > 8.1-RELEASE. =C2=A0The last time I tried this was many releases ago, > possibly 4.x-RELEASE. =C2=A0Back then I would do something like "cat > /dev/dsp > file" but now when I try it I just end up with a 0 byte > file. =C2=A0I'm using a different sound card than before so maybe that > has something to do with it. =C2=A0Or possibly I just don't know which > device to use. =C2=A0Playing sounds using "cat file.wav > /dev/dsp0.0" > works fine, but I can't get recording to work. =C2=A0Does anyone have > any suggestions? =C2=A0Thanks. > > $ cat /dev/sndstat > FreeBSD Audio Driver (newpcm: 32bit 2009061500/i386) > Installed devices: > pcm0: (play/rec) default > > $ sysctl -a | egrep '(snd|pcm|sound)' > hw.snd.vpc_reset: 0 > hw.snd.vpc_0db: 45 > hw.snd.vpc_autoreset: 1 > hw.snd.latency_profile: 1 > hw.snd.latency: 5 > hw.snd.report_soft_matrix: 1 > hw.snd.report_soft_formats: 1 > hw.snd.compat_linux_mmap: 0 > hw.snd.feeder_eq_exact_rate: 0 > hw.snd.feeder_eq_presets: PEQ:16000,0.2500,62,0.2500:-9,9,1.0:44100,48000= ,88200,96000,176400,192000 > hw.snd.feeder_rate_quality: 1 > hw.snd.feeder_rate_round: 25 > hw.snd.feeder_rate_max: 2016000 > hw.snd.feeder_rate_min: 1 > hw.snd.feeder_rate_polyphase_max: 183040 > hw.snd.feeder_rate_presets: 100:8:0.85 100:36:0.92 100:164:0.97 > hw.snd.vpc_mixer_bypass: 1 > hw.snd.verbose: 0 > hw.snd.maxautovchans: 16 > hw.snd.default_unit: 0 > hw.snd.version: 2009061500/i386 > hw.snd.default_auto: 0 > dev.pcm.0.%desc: Creative CT5880-C > dev.pcm.0.%driver: pcm > dev.pcm.0.%location: slot=3D9 function=3D0 > dev.pcm.0.%pnpinfo: vendor=3D0x1274 device=3D0x5880 subvendor=3D0x1274 su= bdevice=3D0x2003 class=3D0x040100 > dev.pcm.0.%parent: pci0 > dev.pcm.0.eapd: 1 > dev.pcm.0.play.vchans: 1 > dev.pcm.0.play.vchanmode: fixed > dev.pcm.0.play.vchanrate: 48000 > dev.pcm.0.play.vchanformat: s16le:2.0 > dev.pcm.0.rec.vchans: 1 > dev.pcm.0.rec.vchanmode: fixed > dev.pcm.0.rec.vchanrate: 48000 > dev.pcm.0.rec.vchanformat: s16le:2.0 > dev.pcm.0.buffersize: 4096 > dev.pcm.0.bitperfect: 0 > dev.pcm.0.spdif_enabled: 0 > dev.pcm.0.latency_timer: 32 > dev.pcm.0.polling: 0 > > $ mixer > Mixer vol =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A075:75 > Mixer pcm =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A075:75 > Mixer speaker =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A075:75 > Mixer line =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is currently set to =C2=A075:75 > Mixer mic =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A073:73 > Mixer cd =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is currently set to =C2=A075:75 > Mixer rec =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A075:75 > Mixer igain =C2=A0 =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A0 0:0 > Mixer ogain =C2=A0 =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A050:50 > Mixer line1 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A075:75 > Mixer phin =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is currently set to =C2=A0 0:0 > Mixer phout =C2=A0 =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A0 0:0 > Mixer video =C2=A0 =C2=A0is currently set to =C2=A075:75 > Recording source: mic What does ls /dev/dsp* yield? From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 07:12:38 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55E1106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:12:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from odhiambo@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qw0-f54.google.com (mail-qw0-f54.google.com [209.85.216.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1428FC08 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:12:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qwj9 with SMTP id 9so2382783qwj.13 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2011 23:12:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=n26opPaQTLRpoTyt/A7pkHenbqn64AXljo/65asJiXw=; b=ooG8iuxV5WF7Vq32mRLyHKtMTyz8NaRjNae3i/oF15uiueVr0Kv9OhA0VH5pmU7AmB D9oIIEHtjjrtdNbMrLLlpgAstZz2BtXPgDW7QqXba8o2fzked7TLK0ifLh+EEou+vkD9 pFcqL3tWjk/16jA1WkyEUEr5foBDO0qPCIVh0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=BHZxL33pQk342Ace9DP63p4I9KqCaEjXbkjA6JwVVv5736l9Mp9jfB/Bfcpml/ivZV 0eRYIH4ccGj6c+sZPsAjBYQOxHm4+mXYb0TAauiudSCVuT5o/A7/n4yKbD+m72+f9lGo OhBOxFvX2wufBpz/quQygHzZVpoxQPAtWGXhE= Received: by 10.229.189.6 with SMTP id dc6mr1855202qcb.175.1297581155880; Sat, 12 Feb 2011 23:12:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.88.9 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Feb 2011 23:12:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Odhiambo Washington Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:12:05 +0300 Message-ID: To: Bahman Kahinpour Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Debian GNU/kFreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:12:38 -0000 My question is: WHY need 7 DVDs??? DVDs?? Even M$ does not do such a crazy thing with its bloat-ware!! FreeBSD ships 1 DVD. What is it that this Debian GNU/kFreeBSD ships in those 7 DVDs? On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Bahman Kahinpour wrote: > After a lot of searching over the Internet for finding the full 7 DVD > set of Debian GNU/kFreeBSD system I found all of them in > > http://debian.nctu.edu.tw/debian-cd/6.0.0/kfreebsd-i386/iso-dvd/ > http://debian.nctu.edu.tw/debian-cd/6.0.0/kfreebsd-amd64/iso-dvd/ > > And was able to try it a little bit. It is very interesting that you > have a "real FreeBSD Kernel". It may be very interesting to use > DEB/APT system on FreeBSD too as it is extremely easy-to-use and > reliable. What's your idea? Is there really a way to use DEB packages > on the original FreeBSD system? Does anyone think that having an > optional APT system somewhere like in the Ports Collection or ... can > be advantageous? > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Damn!! From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 07:48:31 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EAEE106566C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:48:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from cpoproxy2-pub.bluehost.com (cpoproxy2-pub.bluehost.com [67.222.39.38]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4D1E98FC17 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:48:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 515 invoked by uid 0); 13 Feb 2011 07:48:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by cpoproxy2.bluehost.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2011 07:48:30 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=d2J7OLJ2pMcViRfzm4vc9/l6MkxdvpNEwgrNvzOemcKdMV4qK9CekeWil5rVRAvM4ZFS/OR4Uuai6WD3XX3wrEebcnQtIOt3VIjkNxHcWfGuD0XVLX5gSIyuEr3wfRL6; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PoWh3-0004SO-JL for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:48:30 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:38:14 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:38:14 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0vzXIDBeUiKkjNJl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:48:31 -0000 --0vzXIDBeUiKkjNJl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 07:12:08PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote: >=20 > I fail to understand why manufacturers would let people install SSDs on > machines when their life is so much in question. I fail to see why a manufacturer would *not* want your hardware to wear out faster, since that would mean you would have to buy replacement hardware sooner. >=20 > Can someone please enlighten me on the dangers faced by those who opt to = get > their laptops installed with SSDs? In many cases, particularly where there is quite a lot of RAM installed in the system and where people use a netbook the way it was intended to be used when designed (typically involving a lot of Web browsing and not much else), SSDs might be the best option -- especially given the rapid obsolescence of low-performance, ultra-portable units. If you expect your hardware to last a long time, overrun "physical" RAM into swap space a lot, and (as you might with FreeBSD) compile code an awful lot, the heavier storage-write load might make more of a difference in the expected lifetime of the hardware. With FreeBSD, installing everything from binary packages can help mitigate the possible problems of shortening the life of your SSDs. Of course, if you care about having lots of storage, it's worth keeping in mind the fact that SSDs still cost a lot more per gigabyte of storage than rotating magnetic media (HDDs). >=20 > I personally have one, with a Toshiba 128GB SSD (THNS128GG4BAAA-NonFDE). I > am running Windows 7 on it. >=20 > Should I stop and buy a SATA disk?:) Probably not. You already have the SSD storage, and its improved performance for many operations (as well as improved durability under stress in the short term) can still be of benefit. Just be sure you know when the usable lifespan of your SSD approaches, keep good backups (as you always should anyway), and be happy. You'd surely be happier with a better OS on it, though -- right? --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --0vzXIDBeUiKkjNJl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk1XimYACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKWJCwCfQk4ivLUZMKS1atnYdD2bUmji NgsAnjbn3Moz4tDFuy71+oxNxlhtmkWW =mD2p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0vzXIDBeUiKkjNJl-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 07:56:36 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72EB7106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:56:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from oproxy1-pub.bluehost.com (oproxy1-pub.bluehost.com [66.147.249.253]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D7EE8FC1E for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:56:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 28678 invoked by uid 0); 13 Feb 2011 07:56:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by oproxy1.bluehost.com.bluehost.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2011 07:56:35 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=Lw4rh7vP4AxGRAmYQvG4W5dEA9Cv7aFXkfY8N9ElzU7b/bdzJnDvQSFXdgJusNFmlkyDl8QOrDxcGMG5YaCxNjBUhotLJsjKLplZLWTfJi+Lsqg6Wn13VsUuEMnL0jcr; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PoWos-0005XK-It; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:56:35 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:46:19 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:46:19 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20110213074619.GA57938@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3V7upXqbjpZ4EhLz" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Cc: Subject: Re: Debian GNU/kFreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:56:36 -0000 --3V7upXqbjpZ4EhLz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:12:05AM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote: > > My question is: WHY need 7 DVDs??? DVDs?? Even M$ does not do such a crazy > thing with its bloat-ware!! FreeBSD ships 1 DVD. > What is it that this Debian GNU/kFreeBSD ships in those 7 DVDs? It's probably just that portion of the complete Debian APT archives that has been compiled for the kFreeBSD variant of Debian. Those who want the complete set of archives on hand, for some version or other, rather than having to connect to the Internet every now and then to get packages, might find it handy. I've never used Debian (or any other open source OS) that way, though. Keep in mind that Debian's package archives have more software in them than any other OS software management system archives -- though I think FreeBSD is a not-too-distant second place. Also . . . do you think that top-posting helped? --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --3V7upXqbjpZ4EhLz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk1XjEsACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKUXogCg0nmkXc47/m2vz9yPDSUSw+fF Te4An3/srchNh0UtqaZWVW8IC6joubJb =5PSD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3V7upXqbjpZ4EhLz-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 07:57:08 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF85106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:57:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from milu@dat.pl) Received: from jab.dat.pl (dat.pl [80.51.155.34]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A41A8FC20 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:57:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from jab.dat.pl (jsrv.dat.pl [127.0.0.1]) by jab.dat.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 488A85A; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:57:05 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at dat.pl Received: from jab.dat.pl ([127.0.0.1]) by jab.dat.pl (jab.dat.pl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Beala1ixxKd2; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:57:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from snifi.laptop (77-255-248-103.adsl.inetia.pl [77.255.248.103]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by jab.dat.pl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 00F1335; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:57:00 +0100 (CET) From: Maciej Milewski To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:57:08 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (FreeBSD/8.2-PRERELEASE; KDE/4.5.5; i386; ; ) References: In-Reply-To: X-KMail-Markup: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201102130857.08402.milu@dat.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Odhiambo Washington , freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re: Debian GNU/kFreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:57:08 -0000 Sunday 13 of February 2011 08:12:05 Odhiambo Washington napisa=B3(a): > My question is: WHY need 7 DVDs??? DVDs?? Even M$ does not do such a crazy > thing with its bloat-ware!! FreeBSD ships 1 DVD. > What is it that this Debian GNU/kFreeBSD ships in those 7 DVDs? I think the answer for your first question is on http://www.debian.org/CD/faq/index.en.html#which-cd And talking about GNU/kFreeBSD: http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/kfreebsd-amd64/ch04s01.html.en "Although a full set of binary packages requires several CDs, it is unlikel= y=20 you will need packages on the third CD and above. You may also consider usi= ng=20 the DVD version, which saves a lot of space on your shelf and you avoid the= CD=20 shuffling marathon." They are writing about CD's but I think the same is about DVD's containing = the=20 most wanted packages on the first image(s). Of course that you don't need full set of DVD's. You can even use a small=20 netinstall cd to get Debian. AFAIR on the last discs there were sources for= =20 the packages from the first several discs. So the release version of the=20 Debian contains not only packages but the sources too and it's all included= in=20 these DVD's. It's like release of FreeBSD + all distfiles on the CD/DVD med= ia. Maciej From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 08:18:40 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5F4106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (pancho.soaustin.net [76.74.250.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FBE48FC13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:18:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 3303F5622A; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 02:01:46 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 02:01:46 -0600 From: Mark Linimon To: Odhiambo Washington Message-ID: <20110213080146.GA8257@lonesome.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Cc: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Bahman Kahinpour Subject: Re: Debian GNU/kFreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:18:40 -0000 On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:12:05AM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote: > What is it that this Debian GNU/kFreeBSD ships in those 7 DVDs? Please ask that on one of their mailing lists; it's out of scope for the two mailing lists you posted to. mcl From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 08:53:49 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD64106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:53:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from odhiambo@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.216.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9518FC15 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:53:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so2704933qyk.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:53:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=SFWhhUmdj5lSnjiiza/H0YGtOo1aVMSJXMYtqXTFiQk=; b=tZeqnCKa2HObsAiy4101zzUb9jD2zVCU0a/wI9Tje4PCP1XhUeHGuJiOS2MFdIsjU7 wDkqK+OUCnDF4OEG4lYQ1xdO4SyJ30TCFHrFF/cSSDm2QkCDUvn3uVfOXO3fdzCletyA gHH9FK2MmULUY68VyiWSRXasXmRfYlKGHi+yc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=auBjNhLEwgt02IzXiuKsZuhHzu5WOghNWQBrCIvRK5ItxVH8smwEPuoBQB+5i9pyTj IfZst5oUetqOMIvUK/yp57nxnSZpL5m4UfJh6qVQWwrAGYCUu6RRhSDSmDiKOqNKtMgC cl8cC3Hr+4xFpVzMizF1ouTxlywaP3+DMFhFs= Received: by 10.229.189.6 with SMTP id dc6mr1890268qcb.175.1297587228600; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:53:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.88.9 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:53:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> From: Odhiambo Washington Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:53:18 +0300 Message-ID: To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:53:49 -0000 On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Chad Perrin wrote: > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 07:12:08PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote: > > > > I fail to understand why manufacturers would let people install SSDs on > > machines when their life is so much in question. > > I fail to see why a manufacturer would *not* want your hardware to wear > out faster, since that would mean you would have to buy replacement > hardware sooner. > > > > > > Can someone please enlighten me on the dangers faced by those who opt to > get > > their laptops installed with SSDs? > > In many cases, particularly where there is quite a lot of RAM installed > in the system and where people use a netbook the way it was intended to > be used when designed (typically involving a lot of Web browsing and not > much else), SSDs might be the best option -- especially given the rapid > obsolescence of low-performance, ultra-portable units. If you expect > your hardware to last a long time, overrun "physical" RAM into swap space > a lot, and (as you might with FreeBSD) compile code an awful lot, the > heavier storage-write load might make more of a difference in the > expected lifetime of the hardware. > > With FreeBSD, installing everything from binary packages can help > mitigate the possible problems of shortening the life of your SSDs. > > Of course, if you care about having lots of storage, it's worth keeping > in mind the fact that SSDs still cost a lot more per gigabyte of storage > than rotating magnetic media (HDDs). > > > > > > I personally have one, with a Toshiba 128GB SSD (THNS128GG4BAAA-NonFDE). > I > > am running Windows 7 on it. > > > > Should I stop and buy a SATA disk?:) > > Probably not. You already have the SSD storage, and its improved > performance for many operations (as well as improved durability under > stress in the short term) can still be of benefit. Just be sure you know > when the usable lifespan of your SSD approaches, keep good backups (as > you always should anyway), and be happy. > > You'd surely be happier with a better OS on it, though -- right? > Hehee, Chad, on the "Desktop", I'd rather run the ratware from Redmond than try FreeBSD! The second choice would be Linusware (not that I know much about it, but just because "it" seems to support certain aspects which would otherwise be painful to get to work with FreeBSD). Third option is PC-BSD (which is what you mean with "better OS"). All my servers run FreeBSD though. The "better OS" is not so better at the Desktop, hence the choice of ratware:-) -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Damn!! From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 08:54:20 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301B9106566C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:54:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from NordSudEcoles@free.fr) Received: from ml.free.fr (ml-g19.proxad.net [212.27.60.41]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECA548FC13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:54:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ml-g19 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ml.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F313C278B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:37:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from ml-g19 by ml-g19 (LISTAR/0.42); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:37:40 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:37:40 +0100 (CET) From: Listar To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: X-listar-antiloop: ml-g19 Precedence: list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Expiry-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 09:37:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: Listar command results: -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar -- X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:54:20 -0000 Request received for list 'nse' via request address. >> The original message was included as attachment Unknown command. --- Gestionnaire de liste Listar/0.42 - fin de traitement/job execution complete. From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 09:19:01 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7D8106566C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:19:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from odhiambo@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.216.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE678FC08 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:19:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36so2710670qyk.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:19:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=4akCjkDiE8Jn7eAHRwTRGn0QGMj024A2cceC1CQuO58=; b=IBc0IV+4lqOmMBmCbGllL/HvfltRAYb0EnY1JyKJ9I7E5mqaN+A1a2zGQrEZxQmTtN xp+dYv88Qb15/1lUQRmcj7sa+zUsOWxxQYiRHJ3mtjmhk9RASH9niDoDulyCTr1kTQuq hgUFzNEIkTPOOyDNeuSGggLOQrLM0tYUKABaE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=SuXPnj7qg30cHEj7iSNBnfIm/JjHw+Ke24dKbZ8KV49AHOiob4r20IRiXZdgx9dxkK tGLFV1/aumFDOuWLEXDbqPLm8tUar66Irtp4MYGVwbEqGw5lm4DsITzOAT+Lk0KhQxOB rFgFnDZfXV96gzteXEucWuH/2OaQVfbcD/0k8= Received: by 10.229.211.206 with SMTP id gp14mr1876352qcb.289.1297588740287; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:19:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.88.9 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:18:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110213080146.GA8257@lonesome.com> References: <20110213080146.GA8257@lonesome.com> From: Odhiambo Washington Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:18:30 +0300 Message-ID: To: Mark Linimon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Bahman Kahinpour Subject: Re: Debian GNU/kFreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:19:01 -0000 On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:12:05AM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote: > > What is it that this Debian GNU/kFreeBSD ships in those 7 DVDs? > > Please ask that on one of their mailing lists; it's out of scope for > the two mailing lists you posted to. > > mcl > It was posted "here" so I must ask here. I am sorry thought that my "reply-all" went a little bit too far. I did not check that aspect. Why do some people post the way the OP did though? I blame the OP! -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Damn!! From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 09:34:11 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40047106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:34:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from cpoproxy2-pub.bluehost.com (cpoproxy2-pub.bluehost.com [67.222.39.38]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 054A78FC08 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:34:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 23990 invoked by uid 0); 13 Feb 2011 09:34:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by cpoproxy2.bluehost.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2011 09:34:09 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=AjxqyMPB85UdCtcKgFFA+XDtUF56l8k2u2I9p+C/Z3UzyKelOEWRPpbpRZaMBSIbgOY1ESOxj/uV68KPKejFmVEIUK70XT60swIj+AzLzudHe8YCFZ0/Dbsw14v0ciVg; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PoYLI-0005By-Le for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 02:34:09 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 02:23:53 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 02:23:53 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:34:11 -0000 --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:53:18AM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Chad Perrin wrote: > > > > You'd surely be happier with a better OS on it, though -- right? >=20 > Chad, on the "Desktop", I'd rather run the ratware from Redmond than try > FreeBSD! The second choice would be Linusware (not that I know much about > it, but just because "it" seems to support certain aspects which would > otherwise be painful to get to work with FreeBSD). Third option is PC-BSD > (which is what you mean with "better OS"). All my servers run FreeBSD > though. The "better OS" is not so better at the Desktop, hence the choice= of > ratware:-) You clearly have a different opinion of what constitutes a good OS than I have. I prefer a desktop/laptop OS that is stable, reasonably securable, and productivity enhancing. I do not find immense and unnecessary bloat, a fundamentally broken approach to things like privilege separation, and a GUI so pervasively bound to interfere that CPU can spike to near 100% just by moving the mouse across the screen to meet those needs. Perhaps the fact that I use my desktop/laptop systems for things like writing code and articles rather than playing Guild Wars all day colors my perceptions. --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk1XoykACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKWmUQCgtiB5ZIp8eWkCR8pEbPE6biK1 qMYAnReh8TEljTF+nDyYY5iQkDcusi8l =We+/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TB36FDmn/VVEgNH/-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 12:38:20 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEA21065672 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.user@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-yx0-f182.google.com (mail-yx0-f182.google.com [209.85.213.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722B58FC19 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:38:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yxh35 with SMTP id 35so1748143yxh.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 04:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.110.5 with SMTP id t5mr4623022yhg.8.1297600698975; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 04:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-071-070-216-068.nc.res.rr.com [71.70.216.68]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y64sm836031yha.9.2011.02.13.04.38.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 04:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio (zeus [192.168.1.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: FreeBSD.user@scorpio.seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5FF1BE54833 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:38:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:38:01 -0500 From: Jerry To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> In-Reply-To: <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8 (GTK+ 2.22.1; amd64-portbld-freebsd8.2) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAJFBMVEUeH4oAAI3//v8LDHmw s8gyNZ/b3ej7+vn+/v////+PjIc8Plaj/TnQAAACNElEQVQ4jaXUvW/aQBQAcFtKGZLFT+YY 3D1SR9SKoRMncE3IggU4kicGi1JYOgQwyYrgnLlSzhsoNkTuVJEp+ef6ztiAoV3aJ+QPfufn s987S/5fQvoXYPjztmfc514Ks+5JfGUCfrzt4+VabF+jwEV4DGEXN8N4p16sPLxHX07/V3qX yfF5D2H6K4V8j9NkyAphvkjBembD5PDFk3zeTzP1jcksyaV9w+d4ELmUoOp8N2p8uQVyhTAT uawnKNH2mie5lJp48mscUcbJUvg0mR6APwAoye9AMyWozY4gAh0vcxa5FJ4TKCuODESWtfkB 8AEQSupUXNIYH8FSC2w8X3eMBNbbVJpJ7MgECO5yJ9DUEWCYkzNAlsRsgwLQ1GkWqELbkDOh 1bUzoHagYkNh9MXlK/MQoA42gTxz2bhPM2DJedm8MZx6cNfJgEZJ5cmwPp5FZ/Ye8O2qTrFV dgOrHkZRBoheJiGrRquwAhnQ6GeTePPerWVmQelAQ5lwNqtvQd2lcooAV74/zR1BIRS19fy5 ru+B/8ReW9pYKMPjt609zDaitHHTGOO+Zu7gHvsKE7XbeE1QVuJXomIFuZgUJdXQdhpqEELc /e8RLjfi+cQ01yMdWot8UcCVxEWHEkcUrsDGuhaIEoM9kfgAR6jxHcmEV7tNURAl8KTHN9iF McKGFHGO62O62UMpbmlVuogQ7ndL8zXCiLeBy3xpfrqaXS/+AHDG4o8AvhuPeezD/3xL/hy/ Adjlg2odglF2AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA1; boundary="Sig_/juc5FAEfSPFvY/Y/+1FYkWI"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: FreeBSD List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:38:20 -0000 --Sig_/juc5FAEfSPFvY/Y/+1FYkWI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 02:23:53 -0700 Chad Perrin articulated: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:53:18AM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Chad Perrin > > wrote: > > > > > > You'd surely be happier with a better OS on it, though -- right? > >=20 > > Chad, on the "Desktop", I'd rather run the ratware from Redmond > > than try FreeBSD! The second choice would be Linusware (not that I > > know much about it, but just because "it" seems to support certain > > aspects which would otherwise be painful to get to work with > > FreeBSD). Third option is PC-BSD (which is what you mean with > > "better OS"). All my servers run FreeBSD though. The "better OS" is > > not so better at the Desktop, hence the choice of ratware:-) >=20 > You clearly have a different opinion of what constitutes a good OS > than I have. I prefer a desktop/laptop OS that is stable, reasonably > securable, and productivity enhancing. I do not find immense and > unnecessary bloat, a fundamentally broken approach to things like > privilege separation, and a GUI so pervasively bound to interfere > that CPU can spike to near 100% just by moving the mouse across the > screen to meet those needs. >=20 > Perhaps the fact that I use my desktop/laptop systems for things like > writing code and articles rather than playing Guild Wars all day > colors my perceptions. "Bloat" is a purely subjective term. What one user considers bloat could very well be a requirement for another use. For example, while you might consider it bloat to have drivers for modern wireless "N" protocol cards, many other users have a real need for them. I have four PC present working in my home. Three are FreeBSD machines and one a Win7 one. The Windows machine is essential, if for no other reason than there is software that is just not available on a FreeBSD platform. Or if it is available, it is of very poor quality. MS Office is a perfect example. Despite all of the rubbish the FOSS community has spewed for over 10 years, OpenOffice is nothing more than a poor clone of Office 97. The newly released "libreoffice" might be usable someday; however, it is now only in its infancy. There is no way it can be compared to a full blown MS Office 10 suite. Until the FOSS can write applications that are not only compatible with, but as fully functional as MS Office and similar software, as well as provide drivers in a timely manner (and I am still waiting for Java to be updated to the latest version so that it will work with the FreeBSD version of Firefox, or for acroread9 to actually work and play well with others, etc), Microsoft will always be a requirement for many end users. This is in no way a condemnation of FreeBSD, or any other open-source product. It is just a simple statement of fact. The majority of users, despite what they may publicly proclaim, want software and hardware that just works. I had installed an older nVidia GeForce GT 220 card in an older PC and then discovered that there was no sound being emitted by the machine. Wasting valuable time, I finally discovered that I had to modify the "sysctl.conf" file. Crap like that should just not happen. Things should just work. If other OS's can accomplish that feat, there is no reasonable reason that FreeBSD cannot attain that level of usability either, unless its goal is to remain nothing more than a hobbyist's toy. For the record, I have never played "Guild Wars", although there are many fine games available that are not available on the FreeBSD platform. And no, I am not going to blame the authors of said software for that since they have an absolute right, well maybe not according to the EC aka ECUSSR, but in a normal and free business climate to write and publish software in whatever OS language they desire.=20 Just my 2=C2=A2. --=20 Jerry =E2=9C=8C FreeBSD.user@seibercom.net Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __________________________________________________________________ There is never time to do it right, but always time to do it over. --Sig_/juc5FAEfSPFvY/Y/+1FYkWI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNV9C3AAoJEHdwsA8xwKhFXrAH+QFKchvTlPHWEPkGmBiMnVcG x3irWdpvwrZoXH4FLhYEYYIygXpbmcKio5efgDr+fiD3Lw0ijU9E3ku8kzi24m0e uHQTMdFxAmn6jp6q7X8TWyUPPhaU3ML3G+a+yj0/ycG93Nj0aSbgTs1kEv9svLBG IusaoOPxmBSYOAb/wXqUu0iET4uqBl0cK/D8r+Nu5E7SKh1sOe557hnPuBX+lsOy MRudSF5ZmYpK7SSdT0ARNd3GPdYhnr14L0dToKHCGS9OKWlwM3csfJySE2/49FDF +OaaCGMao14aTkDpITjCkh3jm35KIwPlLCoL5ZTYvAr4JsVmiHpU5mqUrBdlXJg= =0M6V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/juc5FAEfSPFvY/Y/+1FYkWI-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 13:10:59 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75DB1065673 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bruce@cran.org.uk) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (unknown [IPv6:2a01:348:0:15:5d59:5c40:0:1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C7F8FC14 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B54F3E838C; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:53 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cran.org.uk; h=date:from :to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mail; bh=jKQbe2vZBTV9 Tb/y+0Ysll44IRw=; b=Nem18jJqC0STtsWPFUdwYA/Jrlk1tAwDTyWXV0+EtXIU cONMWofF7v7FY3wcThmKccsNgWApEMx/YC4998IjxxvOD25Gn3YOzQvOsk7i3RtM eqVpnlazDc0FAHw+Tugc/xNtgRXOUuloBfMXhGlTaGXYX3KfWjL172GWEyprcn8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=cran.org.uk; h=date:from:to :cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=mail; b=F37T8W I/vah5hdJdIYy90GZbfu+S4GOxiP0sIkm1EA1s6sqycJcbVrK/BfifbqkHRne3xo lSGiIR1En1IJ0ZCob+/gosZkva5tAlGqVN11rvxDWU1AgvTq5Q7V0yeuGiDN62Wa JGKhgdDhfFDZ3SqkhhK0fzaDnPOE8VUc0yRRo= Received: from unknown (client-86-31-165-87.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com [86.31.165.87]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 732FDE8329; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:53 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:51 +0000 From: Bruce Cran To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> In-Reply-To: <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8cvs9 (GTK+ 2.16.6; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd.user@seibercom.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:59 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:38:01 -0500 Jerry wrote: > Despite all of the rubbish the FOSS community > has spewed for over 10 years, OpenOffice is nothing more than a poor > clone of Office 97. The newly released "libreoffice" might be usable > someday; however, it is now only in its infancy. There is no way it > can be compared to a full blown MS Office 10 suite. For some, Office is unusable due to the new Ribbon interface and libreoffice is the usable office suite due to its familiar menus. -- Bruce Cran From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 13:35:55 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CA6106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:35:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx01.qsc.de (mx01.qsc.de [213.148.129.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1638FC08 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:35:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-195-143-131.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.143.131]) by mx01.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88EE3CAEE; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:35:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id p1DDZq7b004254; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:35:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:35:52 +0100 From: Polytropon To: FreeBSD Message-Id: <20110213143552.3051a05e.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jerry Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:35:56 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:38:01 -0500, Jerry wrote: > "Bloat" is a purely subjective term. It's not. > What one user considers bloat > could very well be a requirement for another use. For example, while > you might consider it bloat to have drivers for modern wireless "N" > protocol cards, many other users have a real need for them. This would not be bloat in any regards. Bloat refers to software that raises hardware requirements (or also software requirements) for NO benefit at all. For example, a program that re-implements existing functionality, but does it in a way that the final result becomes much slower, more vulnerable to attacks or generally more insecure, would be bloat. This is a relation between what software provides and what it requires for that in chance. A term in relation is "overall usage speed" which contains things like system booting time, program loading time, time needed for interaction and so on. The corresponding equation would be software requirements speed = ----------------------- hardware resources which shows that if you increase both parts, the result will stay constant. This is the explaination why a 386 with 40 MHz and GEOS (Geoworks Ensemble) does not feel slower than a current PC with plentycore processor and tenmelonhundred Gigahertz and tons of RAM, running "Windows" and the MICROS~1 office suite. This assumes that people do the same things with both example systems, as they usually do (here: generic example of word processing). You can easily see that working (!) hardware support would not be bloat. In opposite, it would be very WELCOME to have support for wireless "N" protocol cards on ANY operating system. But there are reasons why it is NOT the case. This means that bloat is not specific to an OS. There are systems that traditionally emphasize the development of bloatware for their own marketing reasons, but you can also find bloated software on efficient and secure systems. > I have four PC present working in my home. Three are FreeBSD machines > and one a Win7 one. The Windows machine is essential, if for no other > reason than there is software that is just not available on a FreeBSD > platform. Or if it is available, it is of very poor quality. MS Office > is a perfect example. Despite all of the rubbish the FOSS community has > spewed for over 10 years, OpenOffice is nothing more than a poor clone > of Office 97. The newly released "libreoffice" might be usable someday; > however, it is now only in its infancy. There is no way it can be > compared to a full blown MS Office 10 suite. Which ordinary people treat like a worse typewriter. :-) I can see that there may be fields where office suites have their right to exist. I've been working in a multi-OS place where Linux, BSD, Mac boxes as well as some "Windows" have been working quite cooperatively. The MICROS~1 office programs always caused problems, and as the systems were all given a OpenOffice installation, things magically worked. This, keep in mind, is just a very individual observation that does not claim to be applicable everywhere, just as yours. > Until the FOSS can write > applications that are not only compatible with, but as fully functional > as MS Office and similar software, as well as provide drivers in a > timely manner Just ask for the many different file format specifications for DOC files. You do know where you need to ask, don't you? :-) Honestly: If you need to open outdated or defective DOC files, there is always OpenOffice which achieves what the MICROS~1 program can't. > (and I am still waiting for Java to be updated to the > latest version so that it will work with the FreeBSD version of > Firefox, or for acroread9 to actually work and play well with others, > etc), Microsoft will always be a requirement for many end users. Many things you named work also on the Mac OS X platform which is also essential to many end users. Also note that Java and Acroread are just requirements for OTHER things, as they are tools to support other fields of use. THOSE fields are the ones creating the initial requirements (e. g. changing file formats, language specifications, arbitrary interface changes, and so on). > This is in no way a condemnation of FreeBSD, or any other open-source > product. It is just a simple statement of fact. Which is to be seen in relation to reality. > The majority of users, > despite what they may publicly proclaim, want software and hardware > that just works. That's true. But MANUFACTURERS do not want such hardware, as this is NOT the way to increase geowth. Just imagine you could sell a "just works" PC that "just works" three years. Good idea? No. Better sell a "halfway works" PC every year along with a support bundle. If it doesn't break by itself, do it in software: "Feature X requires software Y, but software Y requires hardware Z." The NEEDS of the majority of users is NOT in the scope of the manufacturers, or the majority would use web-bases services entirely by the means of their TV set (as a kind of terminal access system). This would FULLY be sufficient for them, and keep them away from most problems they have with "modern" hardware and software that "just works" (which it in fact does not). > I had installed an older nVidia GeForce GT 220 card in > an older PC and then discovered that there was no sound being emitted by > the machine. Wasting valuable time, I finally discovered that I had to > modify the "sysctl.conf" file. Crap like that should just not happen. This is the natural result of multi-purpose hardware. As there are more and more possibilities to use hardware XYZ, the system has to make those CHOICES it inherits availabe to the user. Of course, there could be a preset value, but it may happen that this value does not fit the needs of a certain amount of users, be it 1%, 20% or 50%. So what preset value would be good, or would it be better to let the user decide? Or should he be limited in what he can do with the hardware he bought just to keep him from being able to choose? > Things should just work. Yes, I agree, they should. More and more often, you find that they don't, and the more functionality an egg-laying wool-milk-sow can provide, the harder it is for a system to provide access to that functionality, especially when the manufacturer does deny the existence of that OS in particular, or existing (!) standards in general. There would be no need for thousands of incomparable drivers if standards would be used. But as I said, it is not intended: If the customer can just use a generic PS printer profile for his new printer, why should he install the bloatware DVD coming with the printer that allows the manufacturer to spy at how many pages he prints, when, and with which content? > If other OS's can accomplish that feat, there > is no reasonable reason that FreeBSD cannot attain that level of > usability either, unless its goal is to remain nothing more than a > hobbyist's toy. Erm... excuse me... do I understand your statement correctly? Honest question! You state that FreeBSD is currently nothing more than a hobbyist's toy? I may say - again a very individual standpoint - that I am using FreeBSD on servers AND on my home desktop EXCLUSIVELY since version 4 without missing ANY cool feature that all the "Windows"-kiddies are so proud of. What they claim to be doing today has been done by me yesterday already. :-) It's your KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE defining the value of the system you use. It's NOT the system per se. > For the record, I have never played "Guild Wars", although there are > many fine games available that are not available on the FreeBSD > platform. Not natively, as FreeBSD doesn't exist. Didn't you know? Only the web exists, which is the Internet, this has been invented by MICROS~1 and consists of "Flash". :-) Having been a PC player myself, I've played many games on FreeBSD that were made for other systems, without many problems. It's very true that you traditionally can't play the most current games on FreeBSD, but you can't do so on the outdated "Windows" versions out there, too, and I do not mention specific hardware requirements here. > And no, I am not going to blame the authors of said software > for that since they have an absolute right, well maybe not according to > the EC aka ECUSSR, but in a normal and free business climate to write > and publish software in whatever OS language they desire. I do not disagree with that. If the developer of a program or the author of a web page wishes to exclude me from participating on his content, it's his ABSOLUTE right. But: There is NO right to require propretary and even financially-oriented software, protocols, mechanisms or other stuff to participate on a free and standardized structure of services and contents that the Internet provides, generally spoken, like "you need a 'Windows' to get online". "Eat or die" is an abuse of market positions. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 13:41:11 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C269B1065670 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:41:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx01.qsc.de (mx01.qsc.de [213.148.129.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B53A8FC14 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:41:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-195-143-131.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.143.131]) by mx01.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3FE3CA3C; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:41:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id p1DDf9aU004938; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:41:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:41:09 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Bruce Cran Message-Id: <20110213144109.cc6940c6.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:41:11 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:51 +0000, Bruce Cran wrote: > For some, Office is unusable due to the new Ribbon interface and > libreoffice is the usable office suite due to its familiar menus. Users who have already used PCs are familiar with the menu technique of functionality presentation. Scanning them is a lot faster than trying to find things in an always-changing context-sensitive Ribbon interface where things tend to rearrange whatever your focus is currently on. On the other hand, the Ribbon would be good for new users who do not have to re-learn things and who are not good at thinking in categories, or good at thinking at all. :-) No, seriously: Provided certain parameters (big screen, no established knowledge, no need for consistency, average visual perception and discrimination abilities), the Ribbon can benefit work. Just because *I* do not feel familiar with it, it doesn't mean that others have to judge the same way. Oh, and you don't really need it when you already know the keyboard shortcuts, which is ESSENTIAL for serious work (because it's faster). :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 13:58:15 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCD01065673 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:58:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.user@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-gw0-f54.google.com (mail-gw0-f54.google.com [74.125.83.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6988FC1A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:58:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by gwj21 with SMTP id 21so1765643gwj.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 05:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.110.169 with SMTP id u29mr4649058yhg.99.1297605488965; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 05:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-071-070-216-068.nc.res.rr.com [71.70.216.68]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g2sm851011yhc.28.2011.02.13.05.58.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 05:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio (zeus [192.168.1.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: FreeBSD.user@scorpio.seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7E1A6E54833 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:58:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:58:05 -0500 From: Jerry To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> In-Reply-To: <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8 (GTK+ 2.22.1; amd64-portbld-freebsd8.2) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAJFBMVEUeH4oAAI3//v8LDHmw s8gyNZ/b3ej7+vn+/v////+PjIc8Plaj/TnQAAACNElEQVQ4jaXUvW/aQBQAcFtKGZLFT+YY 3D1SR9SKoRMncE3IggU4kicGi1JYOgQwyYrgnLlSzhsoNkTuVJEp+ef6ztiAoV3aJ+QPfufn s987S/5fQvoXYPjztmfc514Ks+5JfGUCfrzt4+VabF+jwEV4DGEXN8N4p16sPLxHX07/V3qX yfF5D2H6K4V8j9NkyAphvkjBembD5PDFk3zeTzP1jcksyaV9w+d4ELmUoOp8N2p8uQVyhTAT uawnKNH2mie5lJp48mscUcbJUvg0mR6APwAoye9AMyWozY4gAh0vcxa5FJ4TKCuODESWtfkB 8AEQSupUXNIYH8FSC2w8X3eMBNbbVJpJ7MgECO5yJ9DUEWCYkzNAlsRsgwLQ1GkWqELbkDOh 1bUzoHagYkNh9MXlK/MQoA42gTxz2bhPM2DJedm8MZx6cNfJgEZJ5cmwPp5FZ/Ye8O2qTrFV dgOrHkZRBoheJiGrRquwAhnQ6GeTePPerWVmQelAQ5lwNqtvQd2lcooAV74/zR1BIRS19fy5 ru+B/8ReW9pYKMPjt609zDaitHHTGOO+Zu7gHvsKE7XbeE1QVuJXomIFuZgUJdXQdhpqEELc /e8RLjfi+cQ01yMdWot8UcCVxEWHEkcUrsDGuhaIEoM9kfgAR6jxHcmEV7tNURAl8KTHN9iF McKGFHGO62O62UMpbmlVuogQ7ndL8zXCiLeBy3xpfrqaXS/+AHDG4o8AvhuPeezD/3xL/hy/ Adjlg2odglF2AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: FreeBSD List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:58:15 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:51 +0000 Bruce Cran articulated: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:38:01 -0500 > Jerry wrote: > > > Despite all of the rubbish the FOSS community > > has spewed for over 10 years, OpenOffice is nothing more than a poor > > clone of Office 97. The newly released "libreoffice" might be usable > > someday; however, it is now only in its infancy. There is no way it > > can be compared to a full blown MS Office 10 suite. > > For some, Office is unusable due to the new Ribbon interface and > libreoffice is the usable office suite due to its familiar menus. New, as in four years old? That is one of the worst straw man arguments I have heard in a while. In any case, In 2008 OpenOffice.org started the project Renaissance to improve the user interface of OpenOffice. So far the prototypes of the project are frequently seen as similar to the ribbon interface. Obviously, the use and customization of any software is a personal experience. However, if the use of the "ribbon" is beyond your abilities, and I am assuming that you are aware that the "ribbon" can be hidden, modified and that there are many "add-ons" available that can be used to manage it, then so be it. I would rather work with an application with a minor annoyance, and I do not find the "ribbon" to be one, then to use a less robust application. Again, it is up to the end user to ascertain their requirements and find the tool that is best fitted to that job. In any case, I am quite confident that your condemnation of the "ribbon" is totally based on your reading of Slashdot and other similar documents and not from any personal experience. -- Jerry ✌ FreeBSD.user@seibercom.net Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __________________________________________________________________ Knights are hardly worth it. I mean, all that shell and so little meat... From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 14:21:39 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4E41065673 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:21:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx01.qsc.de (mx01.qsc.de [213.148.129.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C5B8FC08 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:21:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-195-143-131.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.143.131]) by mx01.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73ED03C90A; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:21:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id p1DELb8i010168; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:21:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:21:34 +0100 From: Polytropon To: FreeBSD Message-Id: <20110213152134.2309d94d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Jerry Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:21:40 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:58:05 -0500, Jerry wrote: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:51 +0000 > Bruce Cran articulated: > > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:38:01 -0500 > > Jerry wrote: > > > > > Despite all of the rubbish the FOSS community > > > has spewed for over 10 years, OpenOffice is nothing more than a poor > > > clone of Office 97. The newly released "libreoffice" might be usable > > > someday; however, it is now only in its infancy. There is no way it > > > can be compared to a full blown MS Office 10 suite. > > > > For some, Office is unusable due to the new Ribbon interface and > > libreoffice is the usable office suite due to its familiar menus. > > New, as in four years old? That is one of the worst straw man arguments > I have heard in a while. You're refering to when the UI has been issued as being "new". I'm refering to how users recept it TODAY. In many business settings, you won't see any of the "new" stuff MICROS~1 has to offer. This "Windows XP" is still VERY present, and a common office application is the predecessor with the traditional menues. Many user complain about the Ribbon and refuse to use it, as they had a hard time learning menues (and the changes within them from program version to program version). And now something "new"... that's too complicated. That's why I was using "new" as this kind of nonfamiliar interface is considered new TO THEM. > In any case, In 2008 OpenOffice.org started > the project Renaissance to improve the user interface of OpenOffice. So > far the prototypes of the project are frequently seen as similar to the > ribbon interface. Providing the TRY of "the same" is often inferior to providing "better". But users do not want "better", they want "the same" as they prefer consistency in usage, implying that nothing new has to be learned. > Obviously, the use and customization of any software is a personal > experience. However, if the use of the "ribbon" is beyond your > abilities, [...] Preferences. Abilities have nothing to do with it, except we are talking about niche users (who are out of scope anyway), such as blind users who could read menu text through a Braille readout, but can't identify images (without any text) by that means, which implies that a pictural interface which is contextually changing is absolutely unusable for them. > [...] and I am assuming that you are aware that the "ribbon" can > be hidden, modified and that there are many "add-ons" available that > can be used to manage it, then so be it. I'm not using any MICROS~1 stuff at all, so my experience can be seen as limited. > I would rather work with an > application with a minor annoyance, and I do not find the "ribbon" to be > one, then to use a less robust application. I don't think robustness is important for end users in the home sector, as "bleeding edge" is preferred. Robustness is very important for corporate users. > Again, it is up to the end > user to ascertain their requirements and find the tool that is best > fitted to that job. No. End users do not try or find anything, or make judged considerations. They use whatever comes preinstalled, or they use what they know from their work place (traditionally by obtaining a pirated copy of whatever it is). > In any case, I am quite confident that your condemnation of the > "ribbon" is totally based on your reading of Slashdot and other similar > documents and not from any personal experience. I have never read anything on Slashdot, sorry. Should I? :-) My personal experience is limited in helping users who come from a "menu background" and feel that the constant re-learning a contextually changing interface that is based upon pictural elements instead of WORDS is limiting their productivity. This was the chance for me to try to use the Ribbon interface, and I didn't feel it is THAT BAD. There are, however, applications where this kind of interface, if consistently used, would be a benefit for the user. I suggest you have a look at this: http://toastytech.com/guis/win72.html It's part of the "Windows 7" article of the "GUI Gallery" and contains a very nice summary of user perception of the Ribbon, NOT in relation to MICROS~1's office programs in this case. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 14:49:09 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6ED106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:49:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bruce@cran.org.uk) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (unknown [IPv6:2a01:348:0:15:5d59:5c40:0:1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE42E8FC0C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:49:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277EBE8333; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:49:02 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cran.org.uk; h=date:from :to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mail; bh=2XO8HFkFTpdE ah543zmKoC/Rnsw=; b=TRMbE4eedmKideTmecSpIYfWIlmP7fTF+h+niWwngsEJ uetKCjTZsAP5bs5Cnik5pdSu4hdbgUsTLcNR/0Alte7it9hhz/SG4Hy3qs575Skm gQX63xmmqxAajDfrE0NZ/IHseNQjhhNCByTI1RxkC7zeGG0GqM5dUK2Crlo0+Fs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=cran.org.uk; h=date:from:to :cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=mail; b=I/TQaY iIpq/PTvvLSkrWYXT/b8jDWHlzI9wfrlhGSbfwZ8HZ6zyiE4elL+eLLodQyU1MnT eBOGgeqe6fKDDP7UTiTAqEl8oy+hk3qVEpZisYBeVqthfPPajrKLywNEr5DxGk+Y 2wewiQdKGqa2d0Bj7/4kHZwBuJfO6onL0Ep/M= Received: from unknown (client-86-31-165-87.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com [86.31.165.87]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D3EE8E8329; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:49:01 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:48:58 +0000 From: Bruce Cran To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213144858.000055dc@unknown> In-Reply-To: <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8cvs9 (GTK+ 2.16.6; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd.user@seibercom.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:49:09 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:58:05 -0500 Jerry wrote: > New, as in four years old? That is one of the worst straw man > arguments I have heard in a while. In any case, In 2008 > OpenOffice.org started the project Renaissance to improve the user > interface of OpenOffice. So far the prototypes of the project are > frequently seen as similar to the ribbon interface. > > Obviously, the use and customization of any software is a personal > experience. However, if the use of the "ribbon" is beyond your > abilities, and I am assuming that you are aware that the "ribbon" can > be hidden, modified and that there are many "add-ons" available that > can be used to manage it, then so be it. I would rather work with an > application with a minor annoyance, and I do not find the "ribbon" to > be one, then to use a less robust application. Again, it is up to the > end user to ascertain their requirements and find the tool that is > best fitted to that job. > > In any case, I am quite confident that your condemnation of the > "ribbon" is totally based on your reading of Slashdot and other > similar documents and not from any personal experience. Obviously I'm not talking about myself having problems with it since I've used all sorts of different UIs over the years and can learn new interfaces quickly. You seem to be forgetting that most people don't upgrade very frequently: I wouldn't be surprised if lots were still running Office 2000. I worked in an R&D environment and even there people were steadfastly ignoring Vista and even 64-bit Windows even 3 years after it was released - I had to keep running 32-bit XP. The problem is that less technically-literate people have problems with _certain_ operations which were simple in the past - printing for example now takes several clicks during which the screen changes each time. For people who get confused when icons move on the screen the context-sensitive nature of it can be rather difficult to learn. With large screens and people who don't have the baggage of expecting things to work a certain way I do think Ribbon is better: for example I recently started using Access 2010 and found it rather easy to find how to do things like exporting to SQL Server 2008, which would previously have been buried. Also, the way traditional sub-menus work in Windows is really awful for people who don't have accurate mouse skills - move the mouse outside the menu and it disappears. The Ribbon solves this problem. -- Bruce Cran From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 16:51:20 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067CF106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:51:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from remegius@comcast.net) Received: from qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.40]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E30838FC1A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:51:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.87]) by qmta04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7Uko1g0051smiN4A4UrKam; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:51:19 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([67.180.204.190]) by omta20.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7UrJ1g00b46zqiB8gUrJCh; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:51:19 +0000 Message-ID: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:51:12 -0800 From: Rem Roberti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:51:20 -0000 This is a new one for me. I decided to do a manual update on my 8.1 box, starting with csup. Buildworld went fine, as did buildkernel. However, when I tried to install the new kernel installkernel choked with an error message telling me that it could not proceed because the root partition was full. What! I did a df and sure enough the root partition was overloaded. When I installed the system I used sysinstalls recommended sizes for the root partion, which is around 10G. Anyway, when I rebooted, the system rebooted into single user mode, and that is presently where I stand. I have no idea how to proceed at this point, and would appreciate any help in fixing this. Of course, I smell a newbie type error in all of this, but haven't quite figured out where I went wrong. Cheers... Rem From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 16:53:14 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A866106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:53:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from cpoproxy2-pub.bluehost.com (cpoproxy2-pub.bluehost.com [67.222.39.38]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 03A208FC17 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:53:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 11770 invoked by uid 0); 13 Feb 2011 16:53:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by cpoproxy2.bluehost.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2011 16:53:12 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=MQMm6N4FCQvQ0daInfuo295dVFC24SO7iYVY58qWfcXjjYZKg3aDnHL365OWTgQ6liAWho4utZKHDsgvAjaZBx07vbtPaAWVGoIGFUOoptMk/qLSaPARm89P2yHGIvXj; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PofCB-0007Yj-3N for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:53:12 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:42:54 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:42:54 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ew6BAiZeqk4r7MaW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:53:14 -0000 --ew6BAiZeqk4r7MaW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 07:38:01AM -0500, Jerry wrote: >=20 > "Bloat" is a purely subjective term. What one user considers bloat > could very well be a requirement for another use. For example, while > you might consider it bloat to have drivers for modern wireless "N" > protocol cards, many other users have a real need for them. If one OS has about a gigabyte installed size and another more like fifteen to twenty, and both are suitable to accomplishing everyday tasks for a given user, the latter is bloated. It doesn't matter if your favorite 5% of the latter system is different from mine, and we consider different parts of the system "bloat", it's still bloated to both of us. This is why good design concepts like "modularity" are . . . good design concepts. Well, it's *one* reason, among many. Shame Microsoft never caught on to that concept. >=20 > I have four PC present working in my home. Three are FreeBSD machines > and one a Win7 one. The Windows machine is essential, if for no other > reason than there is software that is just not available on a FreeBSD > platform. Or if it is available, it is of very poor quality. You use what you need. I get that. I never disputed it. On the other hand, needing something because of a particular couple of requirements does not mean it's well designed. > > MS Office is a perfect example. Despite all of the rubbish the FOSS > community has spewed for over 10 years, OpenOffice is nothing more than > a poor clone of Office 97. The newly released "libreoffice" might be > usable someday; however, it is now only in its infancy. There is no way > it can be compared to a full blown MS Office 10 suite. OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice offer functionality MS Office does not, just as MS Office offers functionality they do not. Different people have different needs, and those office suites serve slightly different needs. On the other hand, OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice encompass more MS Office functionality than MS Office does of OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice functionality. Since it became a household term (at least in the open source community), for instance, OpenOffice.org has supported a wider range of MS Office documents than MS Office, thanks to the fact that despite its much-ballyhooed adherence to "backwards compatibility", MS Office has tended to (intentionally?) break file format compatibility between release versions. Of course, office suites are collectively steaming garbage anyway. > > Until the FOSS can write applications that are not only compatible > with, but as fully functional as MS Office and similar software, as > well as provide drivers in a timely manner (and I am still waiting for > Java to be updated to the latest version so that it will work with the > FreeBSD version of Firefox, or for acroread9 to actually work and play > well with others, etc), Microsoft will always be a requirement for many > end users. When your criteria for success are "identical to someone else's software", you're just creating a rigged game, where the "someone else" is the only possible winner -- because its efforts are in your eyes the standard of excellence no matter what its efforts produce, and everyone else just has to play catch-up. It has nothing to do with actual quality, usefulness, or productivity. It's funny you are complaining about open source developers not doing a good job by pointing out that closed source developers aren't doing their jobs, by the way. You are aware that both components of the complete Java system and Adobe's PDF reader are both closed source software -- right? >=20 > This is in no way a condemnation of FreeBSD, or any other open-source > product. =2E . . aside from the part where you blame open source developers for all the ills of the world above. Okay, so I exaggerate -- but you seem to be trolling rather than making a salient point. > > It is just a simple statement of fact. The majority of users, despite > what they may publicly proclaim, want software and hardware that just > works. I had installed an older nVidia GeForce GT 220 card in an older > PC and then discovered that there was no sound being emitted by the > machine. Wasting valuable time, I finally discovered that I had to > modify the "sysctl.conf" file. Crap like that should just not happen. I agree that there should be ways to handle such things without forcing minimally competent computer users to search documentation for information about how to use sysctl to make sound work. Sane defaults and reasonable levels of autoconfiguration, at least as *options*, are good things. On the other hand, I wish I had the option of searching documentation and using a simple tool like sysctl to make graphics work on an MS Windows system a few years back. Instead, I ended up having to just use a different 3D graphics adapter because the one I had refused to work properly on a given motherboard with MS Windows. I later discovered the same hardware setup worked fine with Debian. There's no use pretending MS Windows never has issues with the efficacy of its autoconfiguration. Most of us have used that OS quite a lot, and know that problems arise -- and that, unlike with open source OSes, it's actually fairly common to have no recourse at all when something does not work. > > Things should just work. If other OS's can accomplish that feat, there > is no reasonable reason that FreeBSD cannot attain that level of > usability either, unless its goal is to remain nothing more than a > hobbyist's toy. Things should not randomly stop working either. If FreeBSD can manage that level of sanity, in the aggregate, there's no reason MS Windows should not be able to accomplish the same feat -- except, of course, for bad design. >=20 > For the record, I have never played "Guild Wars", although there are > many fine games available that are not available on the FreeBSD > platform. And no, I am not going to blame the authors of said software > for that since they have an absolute right, well maybe not according to > the EC aka ECUSSR, but in a normal and free business climate to write > and publish software in whatever OS language they desire.=20 Of course, they have a right to do so. I wasn't even blaming them. I was just pointing out that, because my needs are more productive and less entertainment-oriented, there might be some difference in how I comparatively judge the quality of OSes. On the other hand, I have a FreeBSD laptop with Neverwinter Nights on it, and until she got tired of it my girlfriend had a Debian laptop with World of Warcraft on it, and we both use our respective systems to watch TV shows on Hulu from time to time. Neither of us has played computer games much lately, but there's some evidence to suggest that even for time-wasting purposes our open source operating systems can serve admirably -- even achieving better frame rates for the games we've played than equivalent systems running MS Windows. --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --ew6BAiZeqk4r7MaW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk1YCg4ACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKUC7ACg1arxcgo8OyB4EQhC4+33ejTb 0FAAnRID+ZqNo4GFeUIAbWAhITdPPbSR =kY6o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ew6BAiZeqk4r7MaW-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 16:57:50 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB81106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:57:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from modulok@gmail.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571488FC15 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:57:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iyb26 with SMTP id 26so4091139iyb.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:57:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=KBT77WDw1tAdlC02Wkx0Nz8RG4ifabtmBpsjfa9MAqs=; b=MKFxlurTMXl63yY5IVOBeC38MXHr3xzcxP3n+SRH7o4SFwlMs0JrtYPWXrFG5yd+5b 4r1d6UL6w/kNToAwRzNPp+FCorv6l59D+A4mLyk/FQLjBPgjT5PndrVho5QexmWR2Sy9 5CcPh5gGX/KUErTzAV8ZsVZJ7x0EfLf/uAKeQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=ZoZ4B+rxDNjKxlMZCharuUCDlx6TUyITwZSU+jp99VY8SZlri0RxFE4gVPeA2EvD6O 8GqfjLyAJL7B+gO1W9SmfGcWZQEvUEHFaP0k2ggddVLSqAdrlDIJlmTjfKpICfIwn+fm IiI5bTDJPGFBtz50nWAwnTG4gqcR+oOwAD0wo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.176.9 with SMTP id bc9mr2352829icb.64.1297616269419; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.177.74 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:57:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:57:49 -0700 Message-ID: From: Modulok To: FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:57:50 -0000 So... how about those solid state drives... yup. -Modulok- On 2/13/11, Chad Perrin wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 07:38:01AM -0500, Jerry wrote: >> >> "Bloat" is a purely subjective term. What one user considers bloat >> could very well be a requirement for another use. For example, while >> you might consider it bloat to have drivers for modern wireless "N" >> protocol cards, many other users have a real need for them. > > If one OS has about a gigabyte installed size and another more like > fifteen to twenty, and both are suitable to accomplishing everyday tasks > for a given user, the latter is bloated. It doesn't matter if your > favorite 5% of the latter system is different from mine, and we consider > different parts of the system "bloat", it's still bloated to both of us. > This is why good design concepts like "modularity" are . . . good design > concepts. > > Well, it's *one* reason, among many. > > Shame Microsoft never caught on to that concept. > > >> >> I have four PC present working in my home. Three are FreeBSD machines >> and one a Win7 one. The Windows machine is essential, if for no other >> reason than there is software that is just not available on a FreeBSD >> platform. Or if it is available, it is of very poor quality. > > You use what you need. I get that. I never disputed it. On the other > hand, needing something because of a particular couple of requirements > does not mean it's well designed. > > >> >> MS Office is a perfect example. Despite all of the rubbish the FOSS >> community has spewed for over 10 years, OpenOffice is nothing more than >> a poor clone of Office 97. The newly released "libreoffice" might be >> usable someday; however, it is now only in its infancy. There is no way >> it can be compared to a full blown MS Office 10 suite. > > OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice offer functionality MS Office does not, > just as MS Office offers functionality they do not. Different people > have different needs, and those office suites serve slightly different > needs. On the other hand, OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice encompass more > MS Office functionality than MS Office does of OpenOffice.org and > LibreOffice functionality. Since it became a household term (at least in > the open source community), for instance, OpenOffice.org has supported a > wider range of MS Office documents than MS Office, thanks to the fact > that despite its much-ballyhooed adherence to "backwards compatibility", > MS Office has tended to (intentionally?) break file format compatibility > between release versions. > > Of course, office suites are collectively steaming garbage anyway. > > >> >> Until the FOSS can write applications that are not only compatible >> with, but as fully functional as MS Office and similar software, as >> well as provide drivers in a timely manner (and I am still waiting for >> Java to be updated to the latest version so that it will work with the >> FreeBSD version of Firefox, or for acroread9 to actually work and play >> well with others, etc), Microsoft will always be a requirement for many >> end users. > > When your criteria for success are "identical to someone else's > software", you're just creating a rigged game, where the "someone else" > is the only possible winner -- because its efforts are in your eyes the > standard of excellence no matter what its efforts produce, and everyone > else just has to play catch-up. It has nothing to do with actual > quality, usefulness, or productivity. > > It's funny you are complaining about open source developers not doing a > good job by pointing out that closed source developers aren't doing their > jobs, by the way. You are aware that both components of the complete > Java system and Adobe's PDF reader are both closed source software -- > right? > > >> >> This is in no way a condemnation of FreeBSD, or any other open-source >> product. > > . . . aside from the part where you blame open source developers for all > the ills of the world above. Okay, so I exaggerate -- but you seem to be > trolling rather than making a salient point. > > >> >> It is just a simple statement of fact. The majority of users, despite >> what they may publicly proclaim, want software and hardware that just >> works. I had installed an older nVidia GeForce GT 220 card in an older >> PC and then discovered that there was no sound being emitted by the >> machine. Wasting valuable time, I finally discovered that I had to >> modify the "sysctl.conf" file. Crap like that should just not happen. > > I agree that there should be ways to handle such things without forcing > minimally competent computer users to search documentation for > information about how to use sysctl to make sound work. Sane defaults > and reasonable levels of autoconfiguration, at least as *options*, are > good things. > > On the other hand, I wish I had the option of searching documentation and > using a simple tool like sysctl to make graphics work on an MS Windows > system a few years back. Instead, I ended up having to just use a > different 3D graphics adapter because the one I had refused to work > properly on a given motherboard with MS Windows. I later discovered the > same hardware setup worked fine with Debian. > > There's no use pretending MS Windows never has issues with the efficacy > of its autoconfiguration. Most of us have used that OS quite a lot, and > know that problems arise -- and that, unlike with open source OSes, it's > actually fairly common to have no recourse at all when something does not > work. > > >> >> Things should just work. If other OS's can accomplish that feat, there >> is no reasonable reason that FreeBSD cannot attain that level of >> usability either, unless its goal is to remain nothing more than a >> hobbyist's toy. > > Things should not randomly stop working either. If FreeBSD can manage > that level of sanity, in the aggregate, there's no reason MS Windows > should not be able to accomplish the same feat -- except, of course, for > bad design. > > >> >> For the record, I have never played "Guild Wars", although there are >> many fine games available that are not available on the FreeBSD >> platform. And no, I am not going to blame the authors of said software >> for that since they have an absolute right, well maybe not according to >> the EC aka ECUSSR, but in a normal and free business climate to write >> and publish software in whatever OS language they desire. > > Of course, they have a right to do so. I wasn't even blaming them. > > I was just pointing out that, because my needs are more productive and > less entertainment-oriented, there might be some difference in how I > comparatively judge the quality of OSes. > > On the other hand, I have a FreeBSD laptop with Neverwinter Nights on it, > and until she got tired of it my girlfriend had a Debian laptop with > World of Warcraft on it, and we both use our respective systems to watch > TV shows on Hulu from time to time. Neither of us has played computer > games much lately, but there's some evidence to suggest that even for > time-wasting purposes our open source operating systems can serve > admirably -- even achieving better frame rates for the games we've played > than equivalent systems running MS Windows. > > -- > Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] > From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 16:58:06 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91644106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:58:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from oproxy3-pub.bluehost.com (oproxy3-pub.bluehost.com [69.89.21.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 554928FC14 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:58:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 10559 invoked by uid 0); 13 Feb 2011 16:58:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by oproxy3.bluehost.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2011 16:58:05 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=GAVCk5p1IgXwFDJb63hzCO0DUAwEonIxqoXPllQM+kewLqVh4TMsln+nBxPh+vX0I2r7DZ5NrxL0hqFPLHmFsp2jXxBxoMxaaXcPFczNsxyJaQJHHsZ60QUb8rkgsub4; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PofGu-0005qA-LM for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:58:05 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:47:48 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:47:48 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213164748.GB60459@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD References: <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:58:06 -0000 --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 08:58:05AM -0500, Jerry wrote: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:51 +0000 > Bruce Cran articulated: >=20 > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:38:01 -0500 > > Jerry wrote: > >=20 > > > Despite all of the rubbish the FOSS community > > > has spewed for over 10 years, OpenOffice is nothing more than a poor > > > clone of Office 97. The newly released "libreoffice" might be usable > > > someday; however, it is now only in its infancy. There is no way it > > > can be compared to a full blown MS Office 10 suite. > >=20 > > For some, Office is unusable due to the new Ribbon interface and > > libreoffice is the usable office suite due to its familiar menus. >=20 > New, as in four years old? That is one of the worst straw man arguments > I have heard in a while. In any case, In 2008 OpenOffice.org started > the project Renaissance to improve the user interface of OpenOffice. So > far the prototypes of the project are frequently seen as similar to the > ribbon interface. I do not think you understand the term "straw man" as used in reference to a logical fallacy. A straw man fallacy involves using a distraction in place of a valid argument, supplanting someone else's argument with this distraction, attributing it to that other person for the sake of attacking it rather than the argument that other person actually made. How, exactly, does the comment about the ribbon fit that definition at all? >=20 > Obviously, the use and customization of any software is a personal > experience. However, if the use of the "ribbon" is beyond your > abilities, and I am assuming that you are aware that the "ribbon" can > be hidden, modified and that there are many "add-ons" available that > can be used to manage it, then so be it. I would rather work with an > application with a minor annoyance, and I do not find the "ribbon" to be > one, then to use a less robust application. Again, it is up to the end > user to ascertain their requirements and find the tool that is best > fitted to that job. "Beyond your abilities" is a better example of a straw man fallacy, since I don't think anyone here said "Use of the ribbon is beyond my abilities," or anything even remotely equivalent to that. >=20 > In any case, I am quite confident that your condemnation of the > "ribbon" is totally based on your reading of Slashdot and other similar > documents and not from any personal experience. Interfaces that change without a consistent use model being presented to the user -- as is the case with all but the most basic, unsophisticated users who are presented with the ribbon -- have long been recognized as a failure of usability design, and for good reason. This is why the words "consisten navigation" are so important in Web design circles. --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk1YCzQACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKXz9gCgxjplSbOScKqsnzLAlAxptuqJ AqsAnA/J7RNDznWhy5b6tE+9jrWHe3oc =jnG7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 17:02:46 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597F1106566C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:02:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.157.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31EC8FC1C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:02:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mr17.lnh.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.157.37]) by smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2011 12:02:44 -0500 Received: from mx04.lnh.mail.rcn.net (mx04.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.157.54]) by mr17.lnh.mail.rcn.net (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id ASQ67704; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:01:45 -0500 Received: from 209-6-91-204.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) ([209.6.91.204]) by smtp04.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2011 12:01:45 -0500 From: Robert Huff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:01:45 -0500 To: Rem Roberti In-Reply-To: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.17 under 21.5 (beta28) "fuki" XEmacs Lucid X-Junkmail-Whitelist: YES (by domain whitelist at mr17.lnh.mail.rcn.net) Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:02:46 -0000 Rem Roberti writes: > This is a new one for me. I decided to do a manual update on my > 8.1 box, starting with csup. Buildworld went fine, as did > buildkernel. However, when I tried to install the new kernel > installkernel choked with an error message telling me that it > could not proceed because the root partition was full. What! I > did a df and sure enough the root partition was overloaded. When > I installed the system I used sysinstalls recommended sizes for > the root partion, which is around 10G. Anyway, when I rebooted, > the system rebooted into single user mode, and that is presently > where I stand. I have no idea how to proceed at this point, and > would appreciate any help in fixing this. Of course, I smell a > newbie type error in all of this, but haven't quite figured out > where I went wrong. Start with this: du -x / | sort -nr | head -n 30 This will give you the largest directories; if any of them don't look right - investigate further. (For comparison: the root directory on this machine is 2 gbytes, of which I use 1.1. 10 gbytes is a lot of space.) Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 17:06:23 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529B9106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:06:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from max@mxcrypt.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E74B8FC12 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:06:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vws9 with SMTP id 9so2530412vws.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.194.1 with SMTP id dw1mr3716473vcb.179.1297616781993; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:06:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.77.85 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:05:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110213164748.GB60459@guilt.hydra> References: <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> <20110213164748.GB60459@guilt.hydra> From: Maxim Khitrov Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:05:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:06:23 -0000 On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Chad Perrin wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 08:58:05AM -0500, Jerry wrote: >> On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:10:51 +0000 >> Bruce Cran articulated: >> >> > On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 07:38:01 -0500 >> > Jerry wrote: >> > >> > > Despite all of the rubbish the FOSS community >> > > has spewed for over 10 years, OpenOffice is nothing more than a poor >> > > clone of Office 97. The newly released "libreoffice" might be usable >> > > someday; however, it is now only in its infancy. There is no way it >> > > can be compared to a full blown MS Office 10 suite. >> > >> > For some, Office is unusable due to the new Ribbon interface and >> > libreoffice is the usable office suite due to its familiar menus. >> >> New, as in four years old? That is one of the worst straw man arguments >> I have heard in a while. In any case, In 2008 OpenOffice.org started >> the project Renaissance to improve the user interface of OpenOffice. So >> far the prototypes of the project are frequently seen as similar to the >> ribbon interface. > > I do not think you understand the term "straw man" as used in reference > to a logical fallacy. =C2=A0A straw man fallacy involves using a distract= ion > in place of a valid argument, supplanting someone else's argument with > this distraction, attributing it to that other person for the sake of > attacking it rather than the argument that other person actually made. > How, exactly, does the comment about the ribbon fit that definition at > all? > > >> >> Obviously, the use and customization of any software is a personal >> experience. However, if the use of the "ribbon" is beyond your >> abilities, and I am assuming that you are aware that the "ribbon" can >> be hidden, modified and that there are many "add-ons" available that >> can be used to manage it, then so be it. I would rather work with an >> application with a minor annoyance, and I do not find the "ribbon" to be >> one, then to use a less robust application. Again, it is up to the end >> user to ascertain their requirements and find the tool that is best >> fitted to that job. > > "Beyond your abilities" is a better example of a straw man fallacy, since > I don't think anyone here said "Use of the ribbon is beyond my > abilities," or anything even remotely equivalent to that. > > >> >> In any case, I am quite confident that your condemnation of the >> "ribbon" is totally based on your reading of Slashdot and other similar >> documents and not from any personal experience. > > Interfaces that change without a consistent use model being presented to > the user -- as is the case with all but the most basic, unsophisticated > users who are presented with the ribbon -- have long been recognized as a > failure of usability design, and for good reason. =C2=A0This is why the w= ords > "consisten navigation" are so important in Web design circles. > > -- > Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Can you guys please take Microsoft bashing elsewhere? This thread is about FreeBSD and SSDs - a topic I'd like to hear more about from people with first-hand experience in running such setup. - Max From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 17:06:51 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41A510656A5 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:06:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f54.google.com (mail-bw0-f54.google.com [209.85.214.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F388FC29 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:06:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bwz12 with SMTP id 12so4607903bwz.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:06:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FzOQZ/4iQme3sP267ZSF40kfZn3Jdpt1zT3Yw618EhQ=; b=lsekactFckXdwBYgDQBn0bRieaQWHnHLWusdctWHhGSuTjejug3q2dxICSi8QIQJtQ PlhwGxrYWW4dMgPRLktVe6KrvEU5mzAGhGUHejvUy+1eY+dNM9gsyS2y2k/1nIF6TxVF EiEm4RDQYuqVf1XwpBoXeLOHTJZX9h3n7JGpE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=F1vwC13gTwUUbMcZ8fsegT/8iPVNrnNLcsU63uLe7yBHatpQ54eHYzux0KiMjKNg3X A2uqwidkX8i7JBzuhV0QL7bznFy56s2ee4T4NHSTfRLB88mRAyH5nshV3a/SuB3fXZGf FbUMZ+/g7eaNkUkyeYYAd3zS285XUGGw01Hyw= Received: by 10.204.59.129 with SMTP id l1mr2568430bkh.88.1297616810012; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:06:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.76.18 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:06:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> From: Chris Rees Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:06:19 +0000 Message-ID: To: Rem Roberti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: utisoft@gmail.com List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:06:51 -0000 On 13 February 2011 16:51, Rem Roberti wrote: > This is a new one for me. =A0I decided to do a manual update on my 8.1 bo= x, > starting with csup. =A0Buildworld went fine, as did buildkernel. =A0Howev= er, > when I tried to install the new kernel installkernel choked with an error > message telling me that it could not proceed because the root partition w= as > full. =A0What! =A0I did a df and sure enough the root partition was overl= oaded. > =A0When I installed the system I used sysinstalls recommended sizes for t= he > root partion, which is around 10G. =A0Anyway, when I rebooted, the system > rebooted into single user mode, and that is presently where I stand. =A0I= have > no idea how to proceed at this point, and would appreciate any help in > fixing this. =A0Of course, I smell a newbie type error in all of this, bu= t > haven't quite figured out where I went wrong. To fix your booting, I suggest that you check that /boot/kernel.old exists: # [ -d /boot/kernel ] && echo Yes! If this doesn't say Yes! then stop, and wait for someone to help you out a little more. If it does: # /bin/mv /boot/kernel /boot/kernel.faulty # /bin/mv /boot/kernel.old /boot/kernel # reboot That should get you back up until you can fix your other problems! Chris From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 17:07:29 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EEE41065695 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:07:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx01.qsc.de (mx01.qsc.de [213.148.129.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D503F8FC08 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:07:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-195-143-131.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.143.131]) by mx01.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0E43CB69; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:07:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id p1DH7QGq017480; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:07:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:07:26 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Rem Roberti Message-Id: <20110213180726.03839bb2.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:07:29 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:51:12 -0800, Rem Roberti wrote: > This is a new one for me. I decided to do a manual update on my 8.1 > box, starting with csup. Buildworld went fine, as did buildkernel. > However, when I tried to install the new kernel installkernel choked > with an error message telling me that it could not proceed because the > root partition was full. What! I did a df and sure enough the root > partition was overloaded. When I installed the system I used > sysinstalls recommended sizes for the root partion, which is around > 10G. Where is it advised to make / 10 GB? Do you have any other functional parts that get their own partition traditionally (such as /tmp, /var, /usr) on the / partition? The installation process should not make the system bigger, as updating the system usually keeps nearly the same sizes. An exception is the kernel: Here, a backup of the previous kernel will be generated. On a partition / with 10 GB capacity and at least 1 GB free you should not run into problems. Kernel and modules should not grow bigger than that. > Anyway, when I rebooted, the system rebooted into single user > mode, and that is presently where I stand. I have no idea how to > proceed at this point, and would appreciate any help in fixing this. You could try to mount the partitions via # mount -a # exit and bring up the system in multi-user mode, if possible. You can try to make sure there is sufficient space on the / partition to repeat the system and kernel installation procedure. Make sure you read the comment section of /usr/src/Makefile which gives a very good roadmap of how to properly perform an update. > Of > course, I smell a newbie type error in all of this, but haven't quite > figured out where I went wrong. If you can provide command output. You can use the program "script" to make a copy of all terminal input/output to a file. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 17:08:45 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46813106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:08:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bruce@cran.org.uk) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (unknown [IPv6:2a01:348:0:15:5d59:5c40:0:1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69AEF8FC0A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:08:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from muon.cran.org.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B844E8333; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:08:39 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cran.org.uk; h=date:from :to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mail; bh=Rh4YndmdRUIy oKt0QXpzvi/Fuog=; b=oYVG25/bZDG6iIU7xOvw83qsUmmbAB10hBx9168yHLbe LTQaipIi3npTt9Edv5Dm9yR9BMsp2mrplcMlrTc/K8OcloGbdtTlCFJfJ54G9kcU oyjKjzK1G9xlAesCIbKpxVAaGEye5c99SVjfViDOrex4aucDL/mIX7iYz+RPtKo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=cran.org.uk; h=date:from:to :cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=mail; b=xLkiqz nPZ2/k3/c4J/r47wxZ/sdeQ4xAK1iUyxiSfAqx6SKUo38c2kdgDQbEbFy2aJm1tI JkoJbW1S918kJdvbNEZbogVLBEXu2lEO6tr8wPv9Pa2nZpY5pETFmS1+3ad5pmnZ x1UQpLDa7nB2ecz41Qa6bnqA2Szks2GtZXXuY= Received: from unknown (client-86-31-165-87.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com [86.31.165.87]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by muon.cran.org.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23AB6E8329; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:08:39 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:08:36 +0000 From: Bruce Cran To: Chad Perrin Message-ID: <20110213170836.000072ad@unknown> In-Reply-To: <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> References: <4D550415.8060105@ifdnrg.com> <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.8cvs9 (GTK+ 2.16.6; i586-pc-mingw32msvc) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:08:45 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:42:54 -0700 Chad Perrin wrote: > There's no use pretending MS Windows never has issues with the > efficacy of its autoconfiguration. Most of us have used that OS > quite a lot, and know that problems arise -- and that, unlike with > open source OSes, it's actually fairly common to have no recourse at > all when something does not work. A good example is the need to edit the registry to improve network performance - http://support.microsoft.com/kb/321098 . Another is that in order to disable auto-run you need to know to type "gpedit.msc" in the "Run" window to load the Group Policy Editor and navigate to the settings. -- Bruce Cran From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 17:42:32 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1807E106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:42:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carlj@peak.org) Received: from redcondor1.peak.org (redcondor1.peak.org [69.59.192.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E19628FC13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:42:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from peak-mail-gateway.peak.org ([69.59.192.41]) by redcondor1.peak.org ({e03e86cd-14ae-47ce-9578-3c080ce9c462}) via TCP (outbound) with ESMTP id 20110213174231475 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:42:31 +0000 X-RC-FROM: X-RC-RCPT: Received: from oak.localnet (207.55.91.159.peak.org [207.55.91.159] (may be forged)) by peak-mail-gateway.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id p1DHgV0p064126 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:42:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from oak.localnet (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by oak.localnet (Postfix) with ESMTP id B187DC46E for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from carlj@localhost) by oak.localnet (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id p1DHgU50078290; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:42:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from carlj@peak.org) X-Authentication-Warning: oak.localnet: carlj set sender to carlj@peak.org using -f From: Carl Johnson To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:42:30 -0800 In-Reply-To: (Odhiambo Washington's message of "Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:12:05 +0300") Message-ID: <87k4h3esqh.fsf@oak.localnet> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Debian GNU/kFreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:42:32 -0000 Odhiambo Washington writes: > My question is: WHY need 7 DVDs??? DVDs?? Even M$ does not do such a crazy > thing with its bloat-ware!! FreeBSD ships 1 DVD. > What is it that this Debian GNU/kFreeBSD ships in those 7 DVDs? They contain all packages for that architecture. They are the equivalent of the binary packages for the entire FreeBSD ports tree. You don't need them if you install over the net. -- Carl Johnson carlj@peak.org From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 17:53:34 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B243410656C0 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:53:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from remegius@comcast.net) Received: from qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.64]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4588FC16 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:53:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.12]) by qmta07.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7Vrf1g0030FhH24A7VtaVi; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:53:34 +0000 Received: from lappy.bsd ([67.180.204.190]) by omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7VtW1g00146zqiB8UVtXcS; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:53:33 +0000 Message-ID: <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:53:09 -0800 From: Rem P Roberti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20110202 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Huff References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> In-Reply-To: <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:53:34 -0000 On 02/13/11 09:01, Robert Huff wrote: > Rem Roberti writes: > >> This is a new one for me. I decided to do a manual update on my >> 8.1 box, starting with csup. Buildworld went fine, as did >> buildkernel. However, when I tried to install the new kernel >> installkernel choked with an error message telling me that it >> could not proceed because the root partition was full. What! I >> did a df and sure enough the root partition was overloaded. When >> I installed the system I used sysinstalls recommended sizes for >> the root partion, which is around 10G. Anyway, when I rebooted, >> the system rebooted into single user mode, and that is presently >> where I stand. I have no idea how to proceed at this point, and >> would appreciate any help in fixing this. Of course, I smell a >> newbie type error in all of this, but haven't quite figured out >> where I went wrong. > Start with this: > > du -x / | sort -nr | head -n 30 > > This will give you the largest directories; if any of them > don't look right - investigate further. > (For comparison: the root directory on this machine is 2 > gbytes, of which I use 1.1. 10 gbytes is a lot of space I completely misspoke, having confused the hard drive in question with another box. This drive is a 40G drive, of which 500MB was allotted for root. When I ran your command I noticed the /boot/kernel.old was very large, so I moved the whole thing over to my home directory, which finally allowed me to boot the computer normally. This was an intuitive move, and probably not that kosher, but it worked. But where do we go from here? Rem From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:01:17 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5726E106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:01:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from illoai@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE1F8FC15 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:01:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm16 with SMTP id 16so4653551fxm.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:01:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=h1Cn4/mSr0oiaoLiwjcdfkcvmV3ZupoGEeXRGf2S72A=; b=lNn0kh5hfBm1SGE+fdq6SXVW9DhFyaUoWpVawSs9OF6xv5+6KlwOrK8Vj2ZzKQ/9uL V8NW53t6epTn9ye4uZTBoeCBaeAPSErpDmRdlhEt5uu9YiHhr/ZQNnXIPPQCvitPXRxB OnNPPG3QDYHiR5kREVGiGM6NWXa94xZUvm+Uo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AIgtFpaIbX7swmssRozcQyS7zgfGY+R/fvtB7woCzIBBuH+RIvxhbZKbkrWdCgbSSB 0M1IUtIIILHTCvnNhEXnyDlX44vu3b99ZmdA888c4nQGN42uoTRh8WkCS3FAXuJG5Gg9 MuASEtQacjnVbKVoz9WhqR7j0HuNCUtbEl/6U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.101.136 with SMTP id c8mr3417764fao.100.1297620030524; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.83.15 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:00:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:00:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: "illoai@gmail.com" To: Rem P Roberti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Robert Huff , FreeBSD Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:01:17 -0000 On 13 February 2011 13:53, Rem P Roberti wrote: > On 02/13/11 09:01, Robert Huff wrote: >> >> Rem Roberti writes: >> >>> =A0This is a new one for me. =A0I decided to do a manual update on my >>> =A08.1 box, starting with csup. =A0Buildworld went fine, as did >>> =A0buildkernel. =A0However, when I tried to install the new kernel >>> =A0installkernel choked with an error message telling me that it >>> =A0could not proceed because the root partition was full. =A0What! =A0I >>> =A0did a df and sure enough the root partition was overloaded. =A0When >>> =A0I installed the system I used sysinstalls recommended sizes for >>> =A0the root partion, which is around 10G. =A0Anyway, when I rebooted, >>> =A0the system rebooted into single user mode, and that is presently >>> =A0where I stand. =A0I have no idea how to proceed at this point, and >>> =A0would appreciate any help in fixing this. =A0Of course, I smell a >>> =A0newbie type error in all of this, but haven't quite figured out >>> =A0where I went wrong. >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Start with this: >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0du -x / | sort -nr | head -n 30 >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0This will give you the largest directories; if any of the= m >> don't look right - investigate further. >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(For comparison: the root directory on this machine is 2 >> gbytes, of which I use 1.1. =A010 gbytes is a lot of space > > I completely misspoke, having confused the hard drive in question with > another box. This drive is a 40G drive, of which 500MB was allotted for > root. =A0When I ran your command I noticed the /boot/kernel.old was very > large, so I moved the whole thing over to my home directory, which finall= y > allowed me to boot the computer normally. =A0This was an intuitive move, = and > probably not that kosher, but it worked. =A0But where do we go from here? > Remove all the *.symbols files (if you're not going to be debugging). Build with "makeoptions DEBUG=3D-g" commented out of your kernel config. (my root filesystem has 70M used. On amd64, no less) --=20 -- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:12:27 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 740271065672 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:12:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from frank@esperance-linux.co.uk) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9BA8FC21 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:12:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p1DICOkI008935; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:12:24 GMT Received: from orange.esperance-linux.co.uk (80-45-152-196.static.dsl.as9105.com [80.45.152.196]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p1DICNPd008931; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:12:23 GMT Received: by orange.esperance-linux.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1EB3B33C3D; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:12:23 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:12:23 +0000 From: Frank Shute To: Maxim Khitrov Message-ID: <20110213181223.GD55168@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> References: <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> <20110213164748.GB60459@guilt.hydra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sXc4Kmr5FA7axrvy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Face: *}~{PHnDTzvXPe'wl_-f%!@+r5; VLhb':*DsX%wEOPg\fDrXWQJf|2\,92"DdS%63t*BHDyQ|OWo@Gfjcd72eaN!4%NE{0]p)ihQ1MyFNtWL X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 8.2-RC2 amd64 X-Organisation: 'shute.org.uk' Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Shute List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:12:27 -0000 --sXc4Kmr5FA7axrvy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:05:51PM -0500, Maxim Khitrov wrote: > >=20 > Can you guys please take Microsoft bashing elsewhere? This thread is > about FreeBSD and SSDs - a topic I'd like to hear more about from > people with first-hand experience in running such setup. >=20 > - Max Agreed. I posted my short experience of using an SSD as a workstation drive and I'd be interested in hearing the experience of any other users. Problems? Praise? Let's hear it. Have people bothered to mount /tmp as a memory drive or are they as me just using their SSDs without any messing about? Regards, --=20 Frank Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html --sXc4Kmr5FA7axrvy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk1YHwUACgkQHduKvUAgeK74gACgo5paH4nfLsT3k9C8xBjDyxXD oIMAoNOIYYaFQ1YrqDtm/NqtMIWbPk5c =usMd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sXc4Kmr5FA7axrvy-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:31:27 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E2A106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:31:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from remegius@comcast.net) Received: from qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.228]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1BBD8FC17 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:31:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.73]) by qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7WJd1g0051afHeLAFWXT4j; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:31:27 +0000 Received: from remegius.comcast.net ([67.180.204.190]) by omta17.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7WXQ1g01c46zqiB8dWXSS3; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:31:26 +0000 Message-ID: <4D58237C.8090208@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:31:24 -0800 From: Rem P Roberti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20110131 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "illoai@gmail.com" References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Robert Huff , FreeBSD Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:31:28 -0000 >>> Rem Roberti writes: >>> >>>> This is a new one for me. I decided to do a manual update on my >>>> 8.1 box, starting with csup. Buildworld went fine, as did >>>> buildkernel. However, when I tried to install the new kernel >>>> installkernel choked with an error message telling me that it >>>> could not proceed because the root partition was full. What! I >>>> did a df and sure enough the root partition was overloaded. When >>>> I installed the system I used sysinstalls recommended sizes for >>>> the root partion, which is around 10G. Anyway, when I rebooted, >>>> the system rebooted into single user mode, and that is presently >>>> where I stand. I have no idea how to proceed at this point, and >>>> would appreciate any help in fixing this. Of course, I smell a >>>> newbie type error in all of this, but haven't quite figured out >>>> where I went wrong. >>> Start with this: >>> >>> du -x / | sort -nr | head -n 30 >>> >>> This will give you the largest directories; if any of them >>> don't look right - investigate further. >>> (For comparison: the root directory on this machine is 2 >>> gbytes, of which I use 1.1. 10 gbytes is a lot of space >> I completely misspoke, having confused the hard drive in question with >> another box. This drive is a 40G drive, of which 500MB was allotted for >> root. When I ran your command I noticed the /boot/kernel.old was very >> large, so I moved the whole thing over to my home directory, which finally >> allowed me to boot the computer normally. This was an intuitive move, and >> probably not that kosher, but it worked. But where do we go from here? >> > Remove all the *.symbols files (if you're not going > to be debugging). > > Build with "makeoptions DEBUG=-g" commented out > of your kernel config. > > (my root filesystem has 70M used. On amd64, no less) > Getting rid of all those .symbols files made a big difference. Where do I locate the kernel config file? Rem From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:42:17 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF991065673 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:42:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sterling@camdensoftware.com) Received: from wh2.interactivevillages.com (wh2.interactivevillages.com [75.125.250.34]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1063C8FC13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:42:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c-24-22-230-24.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.22.230.24] helo=_HOSTNAME_) by wh2.interactivevillages.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pogtf-0005LB-2x for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:42:12 -0800 Received: by _HOSTNAME_ (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:42:11 -0800 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:42:11 -0800 From: Chip Camden To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213184211.GA36911@libertas.local.camdensoftware.com> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Company: Camden Software Consulting URL: http://camdensoftware.com X-PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0xD6DBAF91 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - wh2.interactivevillages.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - camdensoftware.com Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:42:17 -0000 --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quoth illoai@gmail.com on Sunday, 13 February 2011: > On 13 February 2011 13:53, Rem P Roberti wrote: > > On 02/13/11 09:01, Robert Huff wrote: > >> > >> Rem Roberti writes: > >> > >>> =A0This is a new one for me. =A0I decided to do a manual update on my > >>> =A08.1 box, starting with csup. =A0Buildworld went fine, as did > >>> =A0buildkernel. =A0However, when I tried to install the new kernel > >>> =A0installkernel choked with an error message telling me that it > >>> =A0could not proceed because the root partition was full. =A0What! = =A0I > >>> =A0did a df and sure enough the root partition was overloaded. =A0When > >>> =A0I installed the system I used sysinstalls recommended sizes for > >>> =A0the root partion, which is around 10G. =A0Anyway, when I rebooted, > >>> =A0the system rebooted into single user mode, and that is presently > >>> =A0where I stand. =A0I have no idea how to proceed at this point, and > >>> =A0would appreciate any help in fixing this. =A0Of course, I smell a > >>> =A0newbie type error in all of this, but haven't quite figured out > >>> =A0where I went wrong. > >> > >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Start with this: > >> > >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0du -x / | sort -nr | head -n 30 > >> > >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0This will give you the largest directories; if any of t= hem > >> don't look right - investigate further. > >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(For comparison: the root directory on this machine is 2 > >> gbytes, of which I use 1.1. =A010 gbytes is a lot of space > > > > I completely misspoke, having confused the hard drive in question with > > another box. This drive is a 40G drive, of which 500MB was allotted for > > root. =A0When I ran your command I noticed the /boot/kernel.old was very > > large, so I moved the whole thing over to my home directory, which fina= lly > > allowed me to boot the computer normally. =A0This was an intuitive move= , and > > probably not that kosher, but it worked. =A0But where do we go from her= e? > > >=20 > Remove all the *.symbols files (if you're not going > to be debugging). >=20 > Build with "makeoptions DEBUG=3D-g" commented out > of your kernel config. >=20 > (my root filesystem has 70M used. On amd64, no less) >=20 I have INSTALL_NODEBUG=3Dyes in my make.conf, which someone on this list advised. Apparently that still builds the symbols but doesn't install them in /boot/kernel, saving a ton of space. This will prevent you running into this same problem the next time you build. --=20 Sterling (Chip) Camden | sterling@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F http://chipsquips.com | http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNWCYDAAoJEIpckszW26+R/yUH/iIhV43Do6XrXcs5oACzPEL/ RfCyaSzVM+skW8VDO3DDC2Bn5bYOhUVyxnRJClXqqrO7BSlv493WyTfRFZBgRWah I/NnvrIso6S3s67v2P+wjRnp8UCjHmIwkL3nRjE2l0ueq+Yt5hfruxo/FYFLPnRo hWQT24VMGlpPGQsJB7aWdgAR2fYkIqTlSRbujvzprwO8JKjB/cX0wy4CBH/dKXx8 L+eWHLnlwwCXtei3/4eHYlrOh1hPij+JWGPo4NFCwCw7OGlsf+oNbFK7L2LSHWdo BYgWl1nX6NE7sSvOjs9eQsZiVH8dcP3isfjH1R/8oy4PuJDSpqb2o3pXIPWc1ZU= =Yj7i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:42:38 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3103D1065737 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:42:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from remegius@comcast.net) Received: from qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.27.228]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141D48FC1C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:42:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.71]) by qmta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7WRT1g0021Y3wxoAFWidtd; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:42:37 +0000 Received: from remegius.comcast.net ([67.180.204.190]) by omta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7Wib1g01146zqiB8bWicu7; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:42:37 +0000 Message-ID: <4D58261B.5020905@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:42:35 -0800 From: Rem P Roberti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20110131 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "illoai@gmail.com" References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Robert Huff , FreeBSD Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:42:38 -0000 > Remove all the *.symbols files (if you're not going > to be debugging). > > Build with "makeoptions DEBUG=-g" commented out > of your kernel config. > > (my root filesystem has 70M used. On amd64, no less) > I knew that I asked a dumb question when I asked where to find the kernel config. OK...I commented out the section in question, and we'll see how it goes. Rem From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:44:16 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993F91065697 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:44:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx02.qsc.de (mx02.qsc.de [213.148.130.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5981A8FC14 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:44:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-195-143-131.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.143.131]) by mx02.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FEF71E50A; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:44:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id p1DIiDo0017734; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:44:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:44:13 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Rem P Roberti Message-Id: <20110213194413.5d22ee7d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <4D58237C.8090208@comcast.net> References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> <4D58237C.8090208@comcast.net> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:44:16 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:31:24 -0800, Rem P Roberti wrote: > Getting rid of all those .symbols files made a big difference. Where do > I locate the kernel config file? It is /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/ or /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf/ depending on your architecture; GENERIC is the name of the default kernel (which doesn't require KERNCONF= in the make commands). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:47:32 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085F9106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:47:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx02.qsc.de (mx02.qsc.de [213.148.130.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDAFC8FC14 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:47:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-195-143-131.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.143.131]) by mx02.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC431E553; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:47:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id p1DIlUXF017741; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:47:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:47:29 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Rem P Roberti Message-Id: <20110213194729.05a9afc5.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:47:32 -0000 On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:53:09 -0800, Rem P Roberti wrote: > I completely misspoke, having confused the hard drive in question with > another box. This drive is a 40G drive, of which 500MB was allotted for > root. For a current FreeBSD system, this is a bit too small (although sufficient under certain circumstances). Making / 1G or 2G should be fully sufficient in all cases. > When I ran your command I noticed the /boot/kernel.old was very > large, so I moved the whole thing over to my home directory, which > finally allowed me to boot the computer normally. The .old file is a backup of the previous kernel, this backup is created automatically when you "make installkernel". > This was an intuitive > move, and probably not that kosher, but it worked. It simply removes the ability to boot the old kernel, which doesn't seem to be a problem here. > But where do we go > from here? Check your kernel configuration (remove symbols), maybe remove building of modules you don't need (see "man src.conf" for details), repeat the installation procedure outlined in /usr/src/Makefile (comment section at the beginning). You should then end up with a fully functional updated system. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 18:50:05 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A37AA106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:50:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f54.google.com (mail-fx0-f54.google.com [209.85.161.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275A38FC15 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:50:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by fxm16 with SMTP id 16so4680161fxm.13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:50:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=N5n5Nw0JYx3xDcr1laNEqo6DIHTON0tkGkffIK5GSqI=; b=RHDCbppqYlT5zzMgfy9cUMQkd6IxBrQCBE5e0I7PiyjJ1y7T3yUc1pQgCW1SRTArnt jdAdQcaa1G7uFM4PlCbI/c9Qilexn9Dhs3p2I7A81E6Q9DUaNOhJtqHbPsg2VbH7hmUl 3+HlJyvTXS72FQGgRyPKtzmdF61qOGgmprpLk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=XLNgVka1XgeWoggUKir8SNU8ne3VZWv51mHio0Ufr4Oux8JBMcqeyHR024korIIwjx oVsdXTUYyw8DHoCtGzN+htRUH9vLKf/NQQXMHnvAA6KLNR0pK/LawFuErxCKEQa3ZnwM vkGtO9NDKNmLIgJ/N8wjeq6s3fbsn13Ts2aT0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.103.198 with SMTP id l6mr3447280fao.99.1297623003918; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.94.67 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:50:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110213181223.GD55168@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> References: <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> <20110213164748.GB60459@guilt.hydra> <20110213181223.GD55168@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:50:03 -0600 Message-ID: From: Adam Vande More To: Frank Shute Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Maxim Khitrov , FreeBSD Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:50:05 -0000 On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Frank Shute wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:05:51PM -0500, Maxim Khitrov wrote: > > > > > > Can you guys please take Microsoft bashing elsewhere? This thread is > > about FreeBSD and SSDs - a topic I'd like to hear more about from > > people with first-hand experience in running such setup. > > > > - Max > > Agreed. I posted my short experience of using an SSD as a workstation > drive and I'd be interested in hearing the experience of any other > users. Problems? Praise? Let's hear it. > I have two personal SSD's, one an older PATA model in my laptop and an X-25 serving as a ZIL. I have had a great experience with them, but I know the Intel doesn't properly obey cache flush requests even with updated firmware so I guess that would be my biggest problem with them. -- Adam Vande More From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 19:09:08 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA181065673 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:09:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from svein-listmail@stillbilde.net) Received: from mail.stillbilde.net (d80.iso100.no [81.175.61.195]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748AA8FC0C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:09:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [192.168.12.4]) (Authenticated sender: svein-listmail) by mail.stillbilde.net (Familien Skogens mail) with ESMTPSA id 3887F7C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:09:08 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4D582C4D.2030104@stillbilde.net> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:09:01 +0100 From: "Svein Skogen (Listmail account)" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20101207 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> <20110213164748.GB60459@guilt.hydra> <20110213181223.GD55168@orange.esperance-linux.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig27ACF484C8922297F805FFA0" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:09:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig27ACF484C8922297F805FFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 13.02.2011 19:50, Adam Vande More wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Frank Shute wrot= e: >=20 >> On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:05:51PM -0500, Maxim Khitrov wrote: >>> >>> >>> Can you guys please take Microsoft bashing elsewhere? This thread is >>> about FreeBSD and SSDs - a topic I'd like to hear more about from >>> people with first-hand experience in running such setup. >>> >>> - Max >> >> Agreed. I posted my short experience of using an SSD as a workstation >> drive and I'd be interested in hearing the experience of any other >> users. Problems? Praise? Let's hear it. >> >=20 > I have two personal SSD's, one an older PATA model in my laptop and an = X-25 > serving as a ZIL. I have had a great experience with them, but I know = the > Intel doesn't properly obey cache flush requests even with updated firm= ware > so I guess that would be my biggest problem with them. I'm running two X25-m G2s myself. One in my laptop, the other in my workstation (as systems and software drives, I used spinning metal for raw storage in both). Nothing but praise from me. //Svein --=20 --------+-------------------+------------------------------- /"\ |Svein Skogen | svein@d80.iso100.no \ / |Solberg =D8stli 9 | PGP Key: 0xE5E76831 X |2020 Skedsmokorset | svein@jernhuset.no / \ |Norway | PGP Key: 0xCE96CE13 | | svein@stillbilde.net ascii | | PGP Key: 0x58CD33B6 ribbon |System Admin | svein-listmail@stillbilde.net Campaign|stillbilde.net | PGP Key: 0x22D494A4 +-------------------+------------------------------- |msn messenger: | Mobile Phone: +47 907 03 575 |svein@jernhuset.no | RIPE handle: SS16503-RIPE --------+-------------------+------------------------------- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? ------------------------------------------------------------ Picture Gallery: https://gallery.stillbilde.net/v/svein/ ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------enig27ACF484C8922297F805FFA0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1YLFAACgkQODUnwSLUlKSuywCgsBEIVPlGoCQFc8ADzYxT1wN9 sXMAnRsiuY+zmyPxMuYvOaxw2IhAWVMO =fc0u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig27ACF484C8922297F805FFA0-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 19:10:32 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79328106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:10:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sterling@camdensoftware.com) Received: from wh2.interactivevillages.com (wh2.interactivevillages.com [75.125.250.34]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39CEB8FC08 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:10:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c-24-22-230-24.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.22.230.24] helo=_HOSTNAME_) by wh2.interactivevillages.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PohKz-0007vx-S8 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:10:27 -0800 Received: by _HOSTNAME_ (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:10:26 -0800 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:10:26 -0800 From: Chip Camden To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213191026.GB36911@libertas.local.camdensoftware.com> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD References: <20110211185738.GB45708@guilt.hydra> <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Company: Camden Software Consulting URL: http://camdensoftware.com X-PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0xD6DBAF91 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - wh2.interactivevillages.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - camdensoftware.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:10:32 -0000 --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quoth Chad Perrin on Sunday, 13 February 2011: >=20 > OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice offer functionality MS Office does not, > just as MS Office offers functionality they do not. Different people > have different needs, and those office suites serve slightly different > needs. On the other hand, OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice encompass more > MS Office functionality than MS Office does of OpenOffice.org and > LibreOffice functionality. Since it became a household term (at least in > the open source community), for instance, OpenOffice.org has supported a > wider range of MS Office documents than MS Office, thanks to the fact > that despite its much-ballyhooed adherence to "backwards compatibility", > MS Office has tended to (intentionally?) break file format compatibility > between release versions. >=20 Hey, I just found out that libreoffice can open all those old .WRI files that MS Office no longer recognizes! Thanks for the tip! --=20 Sterling (Chip) Camden | sterling@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F http://chipsquips.com | http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNWCyhAAoJEIpckszW26+Rpk4IAKpZZJLx/nymhMGLS0o6t0Ln BO+g9g6RSMKOnLL3XwZwnXMWRQHWyBC4Xz/UTxwITu6EBstMG7l891m7pDp15CPT yNRcRdKnFFXaz5rzeoTDg/vHXUxfq25l+cRmuDzJKj5ixTkegSc93ronJ72HgGKJ L3F9E48salE5NIhr7fTMqGj6K33mxgrVVveBi8eq6MLky+0FBp+dTHrr+2TvfVgL j/WO6vBbUOHQm705wouSJa0YCSiM7/rmpHiFmZlbNjS188uImlv66JcJxTEcuPRb exCn1McpvRAbO+WULp41jJLkJCyf/G+xbRAhPVqaW084Mf5pQf4GOtfLRFONBYY= =0Klm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4bRzO86E/ozDv8r1-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 19:20:46 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342F5106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:20:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from remegius@comcast.net) Received: from qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.17]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19AB18FC15 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:20:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.44]) by qmta10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7XLD1g0070x6nqcAAXLl7k; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:20:45 +0000 Received: from remegius.comcast.net ([67.180.204.190]) by omta12.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7XLj1g01346zqiB8YXLkCg; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:20:45 +0000 Message-ID: <4D582F0B.5030701@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:20:43 -0800 From: Rem P Roberti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20110131 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:20:46 -0000 I'm back in business, and the update finished without any more problems. However...the output of df is now really strange: root@ /etc: df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/label/rootfs0 507630 326732 140288 70% / devfs 1 1 0 100% /dev /dev/label/var0 1012974 173368 758570 19% /var /dev/label/usr0 33292236 9351168 21277690 31% /usr linprocfs 4 4 100% /usr/compat/linux/proc /dev/md0 789518 20 726338 0% /tmp What happened to the Filesystem labels? Rem From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 19:29:20 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3904106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:29:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sterling@camdensoftware.com) Received: from wh2.interactivevillages.com (wh2.interactivevillages.com [75.125.250.34]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62BB48FC1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:29:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c-24-22-230-24.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.22.230.24] helo=_HOSTNAME_) by wh2.interactivevillages.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PohdC-0000ss-OP for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:29:15 -0800 Received: by _HOSTNAME_ (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:29:15 -0800 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:29:15 -0800 From: Chip Camden To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213192915.GC36911@libertas.local.camdensoftware.com> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD References: <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> <20110213170836.000072ad@unknown> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Qbvjkv9qwOGw/5Fx" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20110213170836.000072ad@unknown> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Company: Camden Software Consulting URL: http://camdensoftware.com X-PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0xD6DBAF91 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - wh2.interactivevillages.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - camdensoftware.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:29:20 -0000 --Qbvjkv9qwOGw/5Fx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quoth Bruce Cran on Sunday, 13 February 2011: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 09:42:54 -0700 > Chad Perrin wrote: >=20 > > There's no use pretending MS Windows never has issues with the > > efficacy of its autoconfiguration. Most of us have used that OS > > quite a lot, and know that problems arise -- and that, unlike with > > open source OSes, it's actually fairly common to have no recourse at > > all when something does not work. >=20 > A good example is the need to edit the registry to improve network > performance - http://support.microsoft.com/kb/321098 . Another is that > in order to disable auto-run you need to know to type "gpedit.msc" in > the "Run" window to load the Group Policy Editor and navigate to the > settings. >=20 > --=20 > Bruce Cran You've touched on the basic philosophical difference between the Microsoft and Unix approaches. The former seeks to make usual activities easy and obvious, at the expense of making unusual activities downright difficult or impossible. Unfortunately, one person's unusual is another's everyday. The latter (Unix), OTOH, seeks greater consistency of interface, at the expense of a significant user learning experience just to get started. Personally, I prefer the latter, because that learning builds on itself and generates enormous power to overcome further obstacles and create new things. But for users who do not wish to learn anything and who want to use their computer the same way they use their DVD player or their electric toothbrush, the Microsoft Way fits the bill. --=20 Sterling (Chip) Camden | sterling@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F http://chipsquips.com | http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com --Qbvjkv9qwOGw/5Fx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNWDELAAoJEIpckszW26+RoNEH/3H5DUTm7k3a+ZkNCCF8j9Ti +2jttl143LNhyiG3KErhQIijtt39RmZqbsUxhSaGqPL9nZqciuhClDHQT8a5Ni8I I861ytxPGwbm7fL6d9mFntNaueFvZNMuckUVEwNw6OBsLYTwaFC7HokIiTwSsTT6 6TWmdHpTGBqjzRlIyL4pYp7mhuiXaZVDyNu1oX9c6ZLf0ekkgK8oKIMFHXh2EyoB 4fPIwaw1lpnkEn+PvGndWdYgIvXKo69aFQWslegboTqNTX9OdGZ/SMmelfEV6FgE 3kAO507kj4lo3YPQUM2JzyX0W5T2DDt3BjRdrcEne7XGrpzMmiTz93OoD0EW+2U= =wt4r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Qbvjkv9qwOGw/5Fx-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 20:07:48 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2452D1065672 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:07:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from oproxy2-pub.bluehost.com (oproxy2-pub.bluehost.com [67.222.39.60]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC0FD8FC08 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:07:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 31240 invoked by uid 0); 13 Feb 2011 20:07:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by oproxy2.bluehost.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2011 20:07:47 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=JuJiIJLEgNsA94cp+sd5JK4FBpziQpUC4BpqOX0yUu3Hhk2aH0nChAmyFO0Tuo4i6SZ4K628cRg2Rc3QH+Nype/h+l23KuFJ2BUGIl0x/w3NRq6PRi1ZQIXomaBl3MV/; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PoiEU-00035Y-6C for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:07:47 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:57:29 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:57:29 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213195729.GA60767@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD References: <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213131051.00001ebf@unknown> <20110213085805.72f0132d@scorpio> <20110213164748.GB60459@guilt.hydra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jRHKVT23PllUwdXP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:07:48 -0000 --jRHKVT23PllUwdXP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:05:51PM -0500, Maxim Khitrov wrote: >=20 > Can you guys please take Microsoft bashing elsewhere? This thread is > about FreeBSD and SSDs - a topic I'd like to hear more about from > people with first-hand experience in running such setup. Perhaps responding to the "FreeBSD bashing" got a little out of hand. I apologize for sinking to nearly the same level of off-topic OS deprecation. --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --jRHKVT23PllUwdXP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk1YN6kACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKXhfQCgzVyhVeB/D+6W6sCCh0n9R4fu wKsAoKa/Gxw6Ra9Gzl1KHpsN2J5sBg42 =yUdr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jRHKVT23PllUwdXP-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 20:29:06 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42D1106566B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:29:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from remegius@comcast.net) Received: from qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net (qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net [76.96.30.56]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813F88FC1B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:29:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by qmta06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7YNH1g0020QkzPwA6YV62z; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:29:06 +0000 Received: from remegius.comcast.net ([67.180.204.190]) by omta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 7YV41g00R46zqiB8NYV5lu; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:29:05 +0000 Message-ID: <4D583F10.70301@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:29:04 -0800 From: Rem P Roberti User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.9.2.13) Gecko/20110131 Thunderbird/3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Polytropon References: <4D580C00.6060902@comcast.net> <19800.3705.156052.864114@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <4D582895.7090300@comcast.net> <4D58237C.8090208@comcast.net> <20110213194413.5d22ee7d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20110213194413.5d22ee7d.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: Stuck X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:29:06 -0000 On 02/13/11 10:44, Polytropon wrote: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:31:24 -0800, Rem P Roberti wrote: >> Getting rid of all those .symbols files made a big difference. Where do >> I locate the kernel config file? > It is /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/ or /usr/src/sys/amd64/conf/ > depending on your architecture; GENERIC is the name of the default > kernel (which doesn't require KERNCONF= in the make commands). > > > Yes...I realized that I had asked a rather dumb question. I made the changes and all worked fine. I still can't figure out why the output of df looks the way it does. Re, From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 20:42:29 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432BD106567A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:42:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from cpoproxy3-pub.bluehost.com (cpoproxy3-pub.bluehost.com [67.222.54.6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 064738FC15 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:42:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 552 invoked by uid 0); 13 Feb 2011 20:42:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by cpoproxy3.bluehost.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2011 20:42:28 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=oB+wTV/+K2v1QI2YcWx9j4NmHu7aMoMArdHjPocmDDS7zshP7+w2PV/6fcYPjMNle9R/7X6CzPH+UKc3M822UGm4crbEniyfLIyT8jA0j8+Y+iQgGJzQEww43A8hqVT3; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Poim3-0004Gz-Ai for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:42:28 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:32:11 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:32:10 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213203210.GA61143@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD References: <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> <20110213170836.000072ad@unknown> <20110213192915.GC36911@libertas.local.camdensoftware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20110213192915.GC36911@libertas.local.camdensoftware.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:42:29 -0000 --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:29:15AM -0800, Chip Camden wrote: >=20 > But for users who do not wish to learn anything and who want to use > their computer the same way they use their DVD player or their electric > toothbrush, the Microsoft Way fits the bill. I think you're being too kind to the obviousness of the modern media player device's interface. The electric toothbrush is pretty obvious, though, if one is accustomed to toothbrushes in general. --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk1YP8oACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKX3ngCdHwaIKZhWPFVCZp+AjpNBcq5e j5IAniWi+K9px7gUqLTMB0ST5OCPGnaa =i+0a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 20:44:21 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6B61065670 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:44:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from perrin@apotheon.com) Received: from oproxy2-pub.bluehost.com (oproxy2-pub.bluehost.com [67.222.39.60]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F174C8FC1B for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:44:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 24602 invoked by uid 0); 13 Feb 2011 20:44:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO box543.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.143) by oproxy2.bluehost.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2011 20:44:20 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=apotheon.com; h=Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Mail-Followup-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:X-Identified-User; b=Uw/Ql8zRgC1SK7KflTrR1SH17UlbDBlDZpMvHFgFoQlCwGDOzq/zVZ1071SjXzypXawNgIJeNZa0l8CDmIMJhvbEs3G+HHH6sxwLMKJF3Zwybhsg0LtDFEeXDs+Bs4Pn; Received: from c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([24.8.180.234] helo=kukaburra.hydra) by box543.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Poinr-0005zn-Hl for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:44:20 -0700 Received: by kukaburra.hydra (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:34:03 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:34:03 -0700 From: Chad Perrin To: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20110213203403.GB61143@guilt.hydra> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD References: <4D56799D.13036.2335C99A@dave.g8kbv.demon.co.uk> <20110213073814.GC57674@guilt.hydra> <20110213092353.GA58281@guilt.hydra> <20110213073801.65518b9c@scorpio> <20110213164254.GA60459@guilt.hydra> <20110213191026.GB36911@libertas.local.camdensoftware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20110213191026.GB36911@libertas.local.camdensoftware.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Identified-User: {2737:box543.bluehost.com:apotheon:apotheon.org} {sentby:smtp auth 24.8.180.234 authed with ren@apotheon.org} Subject: Re: FreeBSD and SSD drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:44:21 -0000 --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:10:26AM -0800, Chip Camden wrote: >=20 > Hey, I just found out that libreoffice can open all those old .WRI files > that MS Office no longer recognizes! Thanks for the tip! My pleasure. I bet it doesn't have the old Windows Write memory leak, either -- which, by the way, persisted in Wordpad at least as late as XP. I haven't checked whether that same memory leak still exists in Vista or Win7; maybe I should. --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAk1YQDsACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKUd6ACglRKZJPY0hwmVGekP3o5ZK8CT c/MAmwTbD3rkBxZyqyCnumyTpYs+y488 =8C2D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc-- From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:28:17 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF552106567A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:28:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.157.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D5DA8FC1F for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:28:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mr17.lnh.mail.rcn.net ([207.172.157.37]) by smtp02.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2011 17:28:16 -0500 Received: from smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.11]) by mr17.lnh.mail.rcn.net (MOS 4.1.9-GA) with ESMTP id ASQ88105; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:28:15 -0500 Received-SPF: None identity=pra; client-ip=209.6.91.204; receiver=smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net; envelope-from="roberthuff@rcn.com"; x-sender="roberthuff@rcn.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None identity=mailfrom; client-ip=209.6.91.204; receiver=smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net; envelope-from="roberthuff@rcn.com"; x-sender="roberthuff@rcn.com"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received-SPF: None identity=helo; client-ip=209.6.91.204; receiver=smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net; envelope-from="roberthuff@rcn.com"; x-sender="postmaster@jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org"; x-conformance=sidf_compatible Received: from 209-6-91-204.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com (HELO jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) ([209.6.91.204]) by smtp01.lnh.mail.rcn.net with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2011 17:28:15 -0500 From: Robert Huff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19800.23295.265146.528435@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:28:15 -0500 To: questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: VM 7.17 under 21.5 (beta28) "fuki" XEmacs Lucid X-Junkmail-Whitelist: YES (by domain whitelist at mr17.lnh.mail.rcn.net) Cc: Subject: problem when including readline.h X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:28:17 -0000 I'm writing a C program which, for various reasons, has the warning level turned _way_ up. I'm now getting this: /usr/include/readline/readline.h:336: warning: redundant redeclaration of 'rl_make_bare_keymap' /usr/include/readline/keymaps.h:74: warning: previous declaration of 'rl_make_bare_keymap' was here and more like it. Other than turning down the warning level, what's wrong and how do I fix it? Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Feb 13 22:40:04 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB369106564A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:40:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sterling@camdensoftware.com) Received: from wh2.interactivevillages.com (wh2.interactivevillages.com [75.125.250.34]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9973D8FC13 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:40:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from c-24-22-230-24.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([24.22.230.24] helo=_HOSTNAME_) by wh2.interactivevillages.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pokbl-00082z-R7 for questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:39:59 -0800 Received: by _HOSTNAME_ (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:39:59 -0800 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:39:59 -0800 From: Chip Camden To: questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20110213223959.GF2807@libertas.local.camdensoftware.com> Mail-Followup-To: questions@freebsd.org References: <19800.23295.265146.528435@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iBwuxWUsK/REspAd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19800.23295.265146.528435@jerusalem.litteratus.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Company: Camden Software Consulting URL: http://camdensoftware.com X-PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0xD6DBAF91 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - wh2.interactivevillages.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - camdensoftware.com Cc: Subject: Re: problem when including readline.h X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:40:04 -0000 --iBwuxWUsK/REspAd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quoth Robert Huff on Sunday, 13 February 2011: > I'm writing a C program which, for various reasons, has the > warning level turned _way_ up. > I'm