From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 00:02:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585EF341C8D for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 00:02:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12olkn2087.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.23.87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49fc5N4mvtz4CxG for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 00:02:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brandon.helsley@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=FL5BDbrhhMkVvxVniFWTMisdhSsGM3siT7pEdxK4HOYk4IECbYWm8epOEtctOklQPZg9ShmPNHAPtZQK+lAdmPSJkDsJDEC8xipp+/gs8/PurG/g/8x3HpPVxSdUoYIfYL+Bv8Z0v8h4bgEf9XDjNugB0RRanXCILoAldGp2f818HFZh9R6UAIka/8qPgEAzfCbcKiaX1rnnKhUE5LENKefkYrAsPuA5+QDkXbMOC+1yJRL4RNZuMNYwhvEggkkxCUlhb4VAauoR7no5hC0d5SWZ/OLeORY7vA2RT3ufrBrYk8G0aCQF5fi0I3B6GXuZd0m0www62ZEByGXBIX4FLg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=E2l5yNcPWqSGD8e0uXabJvdf1XFsoUyVFP4zT8tIeEM=; b=Ifh1tr9nK8UZeBar+N8NaYVhPuuZrMmU7r/Dgz2hEnKS/NdEyDavI9YPrvxkzjRl3o4eBQaSW5PtJCuERkZ1FyxTSAY7QSRQBlcs47EMWVGDoLM6PqjGhuaboaHiee2wI1ewpH5Q41n7TOa45Vuj/F35x2WsvK1Mxs7OtYBjPZ9aUg0PCa7mCaukEZxeHFz/qXS3GyNm++0/pvzzKDAZ2mVtv0V70vl98pEz3lQeMqyYp/lTzgU8eDtRhRPWBvMIldpAPQdDzT6VSci/wU+och6wVNpbQVpyMFI2BFqJFVxIuzimv3VhQELoBYBTO33AK/O5o+i3dov0Hs4Mv6GfNA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=E2l5yNcPWqSGD8e0uXabJvdf1XFsoUyVFP4zT8tIeEM=; b=YFBhjAjo1jpzdKfAaTqhvrO/Q8NHgXM1opT7a81h02iw//X0kVh3Wz74h6SZ68LhYECeZbdnHPQylR2bOWWzgo+cPqZKxgInsoIYGd+hZ1NHsfnp7VY224E1l4+DlProUfHqeMNLd6FFnZa1ywpAyBN85F+gO+dDjDgfCh8WnVxnyvs7tCiHnqQqIt/M0+VO/qCu+R/ja7fk1sR/aGEteIDwBGkHeOrdPkA76iFkm5EJrw3S1qbh18yuEtTg2da6ktREtjXN+qnMtVpYkDKNpgYa3jlBobn96S7dU/QGSuVHYgM1Xq3LSEnsraILYJjNGESPmW83caZ2z4lEYq77tQ== Received: from BN8NAM12FT010.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc66::4f) by BN8NAM12HT257.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc66::440) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3088.9; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 00:02:24 +0000 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc66::49) by BN8NAM12FT010.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc66::62) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3088.9 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 00:02:24 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:D68F02B26145865594FB4DE1E6F95CB5707AD1FCA9EF1E2AE90B01BD26990BB7; UpperCasedChecksum:8B27196579649F5A48DB37F1EAB96D298A2E25D0E9AEB2D0BD4B370929E8E2AC; SizeAsReceived:8515; Count:46 Received: from CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e]) by CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cba:126c:494b:642e%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3066.018; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 00:02:24 +0000 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 18:02:22 -0600 From: Brandon helsley To: freebsd-questions Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <> References: <> Subject: wlandev X-ClientProxiedBy: CY4PR02CA0003.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:18::13) To CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:910:7a::16) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.0.39] (97.118.11.249) by CY4PR02CA0003.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:903:18::13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3045.19 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 00:02:24 +0000 X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: X-TMN: [WiBlbmmNL7uCP0+xt46bcXCTX7uzzrlR] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 974775ca-4577-4c9d-b795-08d80a760ea3 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: BN8NAM12HT257: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: KBWz9SvZMgJJLuiu2nUOWONecLL5AXOzEbxTcFn8CSMDYDejSjai0EtIpjol2sTOG8UhwW/bo7pvY9q7XGsIVgQN9gDFXrpVlEd0ya36RDtmguppulSvMTylq2GsrqTb+nLTVIsJfr578b8U76FsMRO/HsvMVyb54ya0blXQe/HZnmyevS2j92XQIDpEqY9rnCvE89Gra0eQqxf+tV3t3w== X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:0; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:; DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: kiloWTbnLNfQbuDA05DG6bI6om6JxR2+zYgVjdPt+sdNAwK0O53sI6zYBMrsZK0+wWt4xzHTPULo7NQc+UBCKOJimho3Q37sbPOcCreEEoG8NB1DGLUlXMc/RBclMe5Tzih30pxOHnWzpMyI68S5rw== X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 974775ca-4577-4c9d-b795-08d80a760ea3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2020 00:02:24.4961 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8NAM12HT257 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49fc5N4mvtz4CxG X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=YFBhjAjo; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of brandon.helsley@hotmail.com designates 40.92.23.87 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=brandon.helsley@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.92 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.018]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.23.87:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.911]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.80.0.0/12, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.23.87:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 00:02:34 -0000 Trying to set up Hostap mode and when I type the command #ifconfig wlan0 create wlandev ath0 It returns (wlandev bad value) Does anyone know what the problem is? Thanks again in advance freebsd community! From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 01:17:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03135343911 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 01:17:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49fdls4WPsz4M3W for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 01:17:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id q8so14715090iow.7 for ; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 18:17:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2CWA+lWS9FUuXp9uMERwYARPyT7R+uLQ8upPUZdAYrI=; b=YYD8u2fwbA74gxsr89bakjsM5nkh9/OvPzy2IYUWvbOEogClQ0XK1IDef0SwMLPZAz hNsiSUVKeHTw5jCD3GIfI3jIwGoXuoFB9Ex1nd2ektErDQW51KetpftuFVluDJFYhd93 uldp7P1qLtYzSgkWmhm4X5dvVi0wmVjRb/nFaftEsCrlBmZpKeDL6YYz4SshxK2VLDBn czF9R9rYKSdWl0CzAd2jUYh/nFSaxu8luobzC8igaqc7MQ+OM/rgB/iqQOprSW77A0Zh RhU/cO0CEcCXboR7FtEAVDcK40lVoMKklN7a0JmP8cgw3ca6w3PK/SPrdChK+5vk18/X Qv8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2CWA+lWS9FUuXp9uMERwYARPyT7R+uLQ8upPUZdAYrI=; b=Jas69hUnNIpabD/YnHyrdjZBFUB8/RqV17vaDZbUS2OQmL9OwooFvTG0dX+xqqDWeN ScUkulrE98yGJz1+5kTK2Jjad1/9LCwln/RNyAmDaB7a2lsYVQwpnuy+QiLv/Fdq1kiT brde3lOT+JcCayX2eTaV+FZsD+Qf4lJ5EsQniyT2i+HjHxwYO0pKykbNQ4J6jxcUrQ7V OEiL56qErNuktD/ckIX6oNtTXOR9xF3LrqLSxFdlu9pSestGDmMujV73Tt68LQ7ocECP ZsVRHad44c3E1vRLsv+3Sl4mw6M+mAHUILMD8qe7uuvjLEPR8cCRJmwnJReO+1i47/Ma 2KAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532E5Hl5a4FsS7wtPqbyJ+rm8QeTlISROqBxM1zSfhSb0c9nTsEg 0gKKZI1eHTaAIVXqFE2Cjr6k6nsTWL0RHJrnb0s7TVWC X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxCKtQUfGUvTgEPs1l/viOUiyYpGTwyvZ4QRKP2wE8SAtvt+dHZWSOcFJ6bFnsPKuSk8ROyWeWTwcKukuDdlg8= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8e19:: with SMTP id e25mr15735281iod.36.1591492648425; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 18:17:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 21:17:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49fdls4WPsz4M3W X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=YYD8u2fw; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.56 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.009]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.54)[-0.539]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 01:17:31 -0000 On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:06 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> wrote: > My advice: NEVER, ever, learn Java, for if you do, you'll never want to > use another language and that could be a handicap in a new developer's > career. > I switched 10 years ago to Java after 15 years of C/C++ (and an odd assortment of other languages) and certainly agree with the idea of not wanting to use another language. Think of Java as the family SUV, not particularly fast and nimble when you need high performance or very low level work but what is it good for nothing is better (rock solid code that doesn't require the above). That being said you should learn it but learn it with other languages. > > On 06/06/2020 08:22, roberthuff@rcn.com wrote: > > > > I do agree that if one intends to do substantial programming in > > the current environment ... learning an object-oriented language is a > > really good idea. > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 04:33:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF2E348DBF for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 04:33:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49fk6L0q2Sz3W7t for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 04:33:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Mininal skills Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 22:33:43 -0600 References: To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49fk6L0q2Sz3W7t X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.888]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.92)[-0.917]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.43)[-0.432]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 04:33:47 -0000 On 03 Jun 2020, at 15:54, Brandon Helsley = wrote: > I've searched around FreeBSD documentation and have found that most of = the contributions require at least minimal programming skills. My = question is whether or not there is anything I can contribute or = maintain for freebsd without any skills. Documentation. Read it, find errors, find things that seem unclear. The = cosumentation could be quite a lot better in general. > What direction should I take my education if I wish to be able to = maintain a port. Is c++ programming required? What else is required? For ports., most ports are still written in perl, python, and C (not = necessarily in that order), so programming skill in those languages, or = at least the language of the port you want to maintain. Of course, you also need to understand the syntax for Makefile which is = almost a language unto itself. If you are not a programmer and want to be, the best languages to learn = are the languages that are being used right now the most. That would be = python (much as it pains me to say as I really really hate python), = Java, and JavaScript (the last two sound related, but they are not). Sure, there are lots of the languages (rust, go, perl, swift, php, C, = C++, C#, ObjC, etc etc) but when starting off learning, pick to = languages that are current and popular and learn them well. After that, if you need a different language it is relatively easy to = pick it up. If you just want to be a programmer for the sake of making money, learn = COBOL. Even bad COBOL programmers can make US$100,000yr. --=20 I know it all. I just can't remember it simultaneously. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 05:07:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5053497DB for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:07:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49fksV1DM5z3ZPF for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:07:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2814B3497DA; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:07:42 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DE03496A0 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:07:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49fksT2CL6z3ZJJ for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:07:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1591506460; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=2/dybEIUcdEiIUDvSSJd7WYMriA=; b=K1riFwzkGKaUOnMVas01ZY/wW/lhAOSXKQCDbUOjHNVcL3d/ZfwXWpCagCR5BPk8 j8y7vOCxtrrkK/BU8x1lA9EeZ3WNNK9U2wawOvqIK48+cvadc6wkcly8JXB2HAin ipEbuASFB7UPKiG6+bfyhxfw5XpqwsSXIh50c++ArV04X3kegvJWGO0qbSYt955G Rw/fzHzE/NAp92OSS/lmuJJsoepI18bhSO7Oi4LnCzs82udMxro1v+NWW+42GCst Qo81A6rLK6+E6J4JE7CMzsdZAg/EZKRjaveyE8zhEE9+CiN5HG9OdfKHkzh1JR1C VNlMMvt8tbc3/cSx3dpKgw==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Z5uS40ZA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=_KAK9slztNwd2H4QdMIA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:21236] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id C2/55-10869-C167CDE5; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 01:07:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24284.30235.559781.34177@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 01:07:39 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: command to list sound devices? X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49fksT2CL6z3ZJJ X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=K1riFwzk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.62 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.006]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.007]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.51)[-0.510]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 05:07:42 -0000 I have this vague memory that some time ago someone gave the name of a command that would list all the sound devices (and possibly their settings). Am I delusional? Respectfully, Robert Huff -- Get it right: _physical_ distancing; _social_ cohesion From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 05:45:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7BD3499D4 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:45:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49fljb1dhyz3dVv for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:45:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 3824134A070; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:45:55 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E753499D3 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:45:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49fljY3r62z3d83 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 05:45:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.26.140]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MS3vJ-1jXWDP1Cwt-00TUv4; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 07:45:48 +0200 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 07:45:46 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Robert Huff Cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: command to list sound devices? Message-Id: <20200607074546.8c73dbcd.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <24284.30235.559781.34177@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <24284.30235.559781.34177@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:eZv1bWMUqpdLQ0qBoQf6+cSvi+80B6jN/oTLSbh8mxmmQRMyF6M z4SBhYUL31R7VJZybKMgdJNkK1qGJ3mEhqbWKnp1aID6UGFyg466135UaQCDSMTHXZXLs8c VSXGNNu4pWquTiAb9lCm5Qk8S4n09/Sf/Z+jODLy7a6mLsWbj6mVADV47w6YWX1RFPT1foY sisZQqHN8664TIYPi6c5w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:rzDHtgx38FE=:Nw31VQZ81ibk76kjqddCgh qq4Dn5GUQYMvEtTjFUpSB2IxDfol+5BcyZ7zc/P4emONXz89u7DwNqK3qVByqn5NVF5JLtfGp F4Hj9Bx4E6yBLSRHbmJ+XXFQOnlJzyfeqdSzD90AI8FQHIjqGFUZVJJ7oN/CDPsOIvRjf/qO/ cSTRi27QaHJY1YavkAgFP5VBjPrbCPPm5RMkEqjDOJgdDclT0t+2nwo56wF52ajuigAFd5kJD rAF3HDiaxmGNMC05erjrlqdA5DEhB2PQj+QumdZF/DI4ju9fiYonetLDI4L0QhxuU/hbh9Rg8 PjkqdbgrzdDnlhxgOxJGQd4p9/hamhmtwFwV5d/mMVXISgKwmiDJMEUGLMM6kFm/BmSxYTdTe rS3j2lpkhTIccP7WjVbY/rcra/BgtQJpSRxpcAZpiZFKrAOvyDhscHiR7cjTnrKena2InL8wK /YZThC0AXfZg/0pSSubv/XScYMf9gM8tnKKh2zRfiZGHUDNrmhv19R3j450dq8dXcWeoLK4ea jmISSGriBf1lA9v9+1KNdmhASu7TgW+bry0/Ynn/hgfrPzgrDcg7fgnI28/Zi6Rw8Tb7HVbSj Y2vndj2Zu2kZ2Tn729dN070imQOVSBaClYOTZvIqyg+WoaKGNVDP6OUo/+TAM0AxPr2hIaM76 GKmPXUU4xSwao7kkUpJ3vnOj/K9U4m96Jide3FDvMevnvXrkfUJ1eKXwXwTyypdggJfHqTFhB vfHMWfi8gOg5qOcccOdf4nz3Gi/rqU3NiYXVS8HWgeCpkrONB7Rr4rp3vIJrEaTNYKXjSX44d z9lLKIeRtJ/uVp9IQ3Q2BCOVDH0g0b3d7l17Loop587AiFYPOTyqcmU1aS7hPm9IlRc9bR2 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49fljY3r62z3d83 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.08 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.23)[-0.234]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.26.140:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.67)[-0.670]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.41)[-0.411]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 05:45:55 -0000 On Sun, 7 Jun 2020 01:07:39 -0400, Robert Huff wrote: > > I have this vague memory that some time ago someone gave the name > of a command that would list all the sound devices (and possibly their > settings). The command you're searching for probably is: # cat /dev/sndstat And for the settings (here: the volume setting), use: # ls /dev/mixer* # mixer -f Partially related: # dmesg | grep "^pcm" # dmesg | grep "^hda" And of course: # pciconf -lv | less > Am I delusional? I'm not competent to answer that question. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 13:39:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9496A32BF93 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:39:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49fyCg2ssFz3WVL for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:39:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 6273632BCF6; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:39:11 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6239B32BF92 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:39:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49fyCf19Rsz3WN3 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:39:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1591537149; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=W7fAhSXT1Y6/b/g/VXtmMhsg3Zo=; b=p+oIz2Ep8Cs31WcUbpVS4fxE0i0kVCWUrA88T8MwhTRU3+8yHlLrpz7lOxza/Z16 sicrabViZgEgb1uxUwtGWpwXkXE9X6EhBy0NRGgWS4GfbYnLcBD4mmN/wMwhT4v3 xLL/spL9QADUAj3RBSVvumH5gbEAEvVIV3yVSjziBuXPdeSa2erNNfipjurB5n9w BrdXXvCF0SIIpU6z0xvcRS6p2Xe3NYf0rVJXs1HOHSQLInpX7JCDKoL+7nOzsKi2 zhGyi+LnPCLLJuPlyrUTQTgRux01apfjRb4VPklD979IRe+vH+SR5OfrmrYNpzgL Mex6bxQ4M8/PewTCvqR5/g==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J+PUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=9OpRnbE-QLBOWJ0GxQgA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:44514] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id A9/2A-42436-CFDECDE5; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 09:39:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24284.60923.362956.917507@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 09:39:07 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: Polytropon Cc: Robert Huff , questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: command to list sound devices? In-Reply-To: <20200607074546.8c73dbcd.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <24284.30235.559781.34177@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200607074546.8c73dbcd.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49fyCf19Rsz3WN3 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=p+oIz2Ep; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.81 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[69.168.97.78:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.985]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.710]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.016]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[69.168.97.78:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 13:39:11 -0000 Polytropon writes: > > I have this vague memory that some time ago someone gave the name > > of a command that would list all the sound devices (and possibly their > > settings). > > The command you're searching for probably is: > > # cat /dev/sndstat That's it! Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 17:35:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94AF3323F5 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:35:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguelmclara@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49g3Rv577Hz4Kwv for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:35:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguelmclara@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id b5so7465468pfp.9 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:35:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DJ4JHAmKIY3peU7aAc+EynAGfGedCbkOhI3sy4r4/1Y=; b=f1IVxP7Fo/AP5xvrjiYa6n1PFWaVC/VOixyV/fiCHot0VqJJSzX4njXTOuhX46zJ3+ czVHEaC8Wemhmwf5mRNdi2SjLMcOv7LenyEkmO+mFgFcRzonETzZEUX1WhMYFSBGDnNp DgJpxEXrPcPwM/MsUlNJtw+9P+Rje+dSun9girUifQLGoPDGbbfIQ//Tx26i/6VvlN7P H1B2h6y6IbI9ZWob12OsKgM3GLXfmYD/M2Elqpe4M3zwsX/RxFd0+d68+Mq+PDvO6afl Lqt5nUi1HCfkkxbXdYlMvGy8mfXrFjzaAY8eSMWaygEZR0lTP534gdblzjh3V7JCR3Bo B8AQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DJ4JHAmKIY3peU7aAc+EynAGfGedCbkOhI3sy4r4/1Y=; b=ElHAUeO4xYfeA0vwJ8S8CeG/cathJhNOEj3eUgOQDWPFzRIll2qDKzhU7m+QFp88vP 3xe5Hibtw5DtaqmOW73L8XqXT5kPeF82zuNjIyNJS+DM2Huphf31iVSrADXsvOGEPLvF 6mP37Jn8Tula9gFwoGgKcYnoOb9nLWb6MSXLg76+ewSz0b5aqyKUduv6/Y5UpOzayPcO AmNmepXUPWtUpy78wSsx/aLTbJblPypPMX6BuyifTku+NnenHshvN8X+1sGnl/LASVAF DrPtf+uiawUa5rulFq/JOHUoz8YeNUGnF0/zF16EYimxbp8FZMPcJZ7ncB3aEnsVO+rz AkQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532HUYTsR28n9/rQuTgONbBO9w15sEm/1Ilb3KJdbO89s6nvNbAO EqGtvb8LXbsYlYDXAYNPtFo/eqDOan2tVk8V+guL2U2tyCI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzI+IR5kjR+om2ghu+SgxxnxEgsb/Nvlo9Ey3LGdbX5s4ff+G/NNQQRbQtOdo0sBOn8vzlBAfKdAMHmj7HhhFU= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8084:: with SMTP id v4mr18698251pff.211.1591551305706; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:35:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Miguel C Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:34:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: No SD Card support on FreeBSD 12.1 - intel NUC (NUC7i5BN) To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49g3Rv577Hz4Kwv X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=f1IVxP7F; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of miguelmclara@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=miguelmclara@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.09 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.009]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.021]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.06)[-0.060]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:35:08 -0000 >From what I see in https://wiki.freebsd.org/IntelNUC this seems to at list show in pciconf for NUC&: pciconf output shows: sdhci_pci0: mem 0xdc101000-0xdc101fff,0xdc100000-0xdc1007ff irq 17 at device 0.0 on pci1 However I don't see anything like such on mine (AFAIK the setup is similar and there's a microSD port on the side but I'm not sure how things are hardwired ofc) I also don't see anything in usbconfig I have mmcsd and sdhci loaded (by default): kldstat -v | egrep "sdh|mmc" 247 sdhci_pci/mmc 246 pci/sdhci_pci 245 sdhci_acpi/mmc 244 acpi/sdhci_acpi 187 mmc/mmcsd And this is the full output of pciconf -lv hostb0@pci0:0:0:0: class=0x060000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x59048086 rev=0x03 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Xeon E3-1200 v6/7th Gen Core Processor Host Bridge/DRAM Registers' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI vgapci0@pci0:0:2:0: class=0x030000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x59268086 rev=0x06 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Iris Plus Graphics 640' class = display subclass = VGA none0@pci0:0:8:0: class=0x088000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x19118086 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Xeon E3-1200 v5/v6 / E3-1500 v5 / 6th/7th Gen Core Processor Gaussian Mixture Model' class = base peripheral xhci0@pci0:0:20:0: class=0x0c0330 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d2f8086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP USB 3.0 xHCI Controller' class = serial bus subclass = USB none1@pci0:0:20:2: class=0x118000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d318086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP Thermal subsystem' class = dasp none2@pci0:0:22:0: class=0x078000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d3a8086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP CSME HECI' class = simple comms ahci0@pci0:0:23:0: class=0x010601 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d038086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP SATA Controller [AHCI mode]' class = mass storage subclass = SATA pcib1@pci0:0:28:0: class=0x060400 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d108086 rev=0xf1 hdr=0x01 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP PCI Express Root Port' class = bridge subclass = PCI-PCI pcib2@pci0:0:28:7: class=0x060400 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d178086 rev=0xf1 hdr=0x01 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP PCI Express Root Port' class = bridge subclass = PCI-PCI isab0@pci0:0:31:0: class=0x060100 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d4e8086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Intel(R) 100 Series Chipset Family LPC Controller/eSPI Controller - 9D4E' class = bridge subclass = PCI-ISA none3@pci0:0:31:2: class=0x058000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d218086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP PMC' class = memory hdac0@pci0:0:31:3: class=0x040380 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d718086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP HD Audio' class = multimedia subclass = HDA none4@pci0:0:31:4: class=0x0c0500 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d238086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP SMBus' class = serial bus subclass = SMBus em0@pci0:0:31:6: class=0x020000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x15d88086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Ethernet Connection (4) I219-V' class = network subclass = ethernet none5@pci0:58:0:0: class=0xff0000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x522910ec rev=0x01 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.' device = 'RTS5229 PCI Express Card Reader' Is there anything else I can try? (any other module I should be loading) Thanks in advance for any help. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 17:38:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517B5332850 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:38:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49g3Ww1x1gz4LGJ for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:38:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4036A40A; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 13:38:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yuripv.dev; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=8 y6HoiUnxwf0VlgEotyB2pY7fC15ERTRWLpfU6gkIx4=; b=lLCsaax8bv+R0IxzK ySHdDCggV/U+IMbOHyFsf0IUxGYjomKYlJ6W/k9/ukSZhOBpjet4ySAzdoitYdAa IZegdJaYaWDjlg2tHN3V5afy05apYukrVNf5WU9gpb4idFZwgXXS5x+fBf8vcGdb EtSCjSZrpbxJvSjrvFWyq3bj0LMzUS7M4y8gjzDuR/j6byvtwUClDYyklE1qwX+w +SU6r7KCa+0hGojHGUFr0NOmu8eX41qgTDq17cCIeiQ96M7eibzmSZ+8btm2wQ34 9FmBfvGdZmn9bV4dy7AlkCJ2GVKAIFvOLAngtEZVVsfC9l8c5qWdcQwRxQM1zp5B 9T0Ag== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=8y6HoiUnxwf0VlgEotyB2pY7fC15ERTRWLpfU6gkI x4=; b=NLWI2IV3sk8JA6UCXGf6/lJDKvJPAoH2WdorQ9lv0rQmJbrGIq7X2hnkD KBEDhCejxa90cWFUssba3sij/VP4VbFi+6SIMTuEtilIXvpJ6tRlh9obVPJBLvcT 47r4lNZLZE6bvZHnHAdmjIUWK24lNVBUYDltW915Sfy3wxfKq8wBAJLkhQgXqwG2 BgI0pfxJvFKmU1dXUzSr7+gGFdjxCW8EoO0qHJN7s+bhCuwx+Iis0Hjs15+lihBd Mree44hOisLFWQh9AVztDma3L3s6qv2zK+QqwfRE/h0E8v2hYF495PFVqK3g0aCQ 3TXT5mrTzFql/uhqrG9QBENClMoyg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudegledguddukecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepjghurhhiucfrrghnkhhovhcuoeihuhhrihhpvheshihu rhhiphhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeikeetfedtfedtkefhffeuleejfe ffgfffffeuhfehgfehjedvgeefheeivedugfenucffohhmrghinhepfhhrvggvsghsugdr ohhrghenucfkphepledurddvgedtrdduvdegrddufeeknecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivg eptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhephihurhhiphhvseihuhhrihhpvhdruggv vh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.6] (unknown [91.240.124.138]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 461123280059; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 13:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: No SD Card support on FreeBSD 12.1 - intel NUC (NUC7i5BN) To: Miguel C , FreeBSD Mailing List References: From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: <41d3d94d-2da1-9c6f-38a8-d0af1cc2fc50@yuripv.dev> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 20:38:31 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49g3Ww1x1gz4LGJ X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yuripv.dev header.s=fm1 header.b=lLCsaax8; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=NLWI2IV3; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yuripv@yuripv.dev designates 64.147.123.25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yuripv@yuripv.dev X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.83 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[yuripv.dev:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.74)[-0.741]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:64.147.123.25]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.76)[-0.755]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yuripv.dev]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yuripv.dev:+,messagingengine.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.573]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[64.147.123.25:from]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.25:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:38:37 -0000 Miguel C wrote: > From what I see in https://wiki.freebsd.org/IntelNUC this seems to at list > show in pciconf for NUC&: > > pciconf output shows: > sdhci_pci0: mem > 0xdc101000-0xdc101fff,0xdc100000-0xdc1007ff irq 17 at device 0.0 on pci1 > > > > However I don't see anything like such on mine (AFAIK the setup is similar > and there's a microSD port on the side but I'm not sure how things are > hardwired ofc) > > I also don't see anything in usbconfig > > > I have mmcsd and sdhci loaded (by default): > > kldstat -v | egrep "sdh|mmc" > 247 sdhci_pci/mmc > 246 pci/sdhci_pci > 245 sdhci_acpi/mmc > 244 acpi/sdhci_acpi > 187 mmc/mmcsd > > > And this is the full output of pciconf -lv > hostb0@pci0:0:0:0: class=0x060000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x59048086 rev=0x03 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Xeon E3-1200 v6/7th Gen Core Processor Host Bridge/DRAM > Registers' > class = bridge > subclass = HOST-PCI > vgapci0@pci0:0:2:0: class=0x030000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x59268086 rev=0x06 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Iris Plus Graphics 640' > class = display > subclass = VGA > none0@pci0:0:8:0: class=0x088000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x19118086 rev=0x00 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Xeon E3-1200 v5/v6 / E3-1500 v5 / 6th/7th Gen Core > Processor Gaussian Mixture Model' > class = base peripheral > xhci0@pci0:0:20:0: class=0x0c0330 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d2f8086 rev=0x21 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Sunrise Point-LP USB 3.0 xHCI Controller' > class = serial bus > subclass = USB > none1@pci0:0:20:2: class=0x118000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d318086 rev=0x21 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Sunrise Point-LP Thermal subsystem' > class = dasp > none2@pci0:0:22:0: class=0x078000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d3a8086 rev=0x21 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Sunrise Point-LP CSME HECI' > class = simple comms > ahci0@pci0:0:23:0: class=0x010601 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d038086 rev=0x21 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Sunrise Point-LP SATA Controller [AHCI mode]' > class = mass storage > subclass = SATA > pcib1@pci0:0:28:0: class=0x060400 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d108086 rev=0xf1 > hdr=0x01 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Sunrise Point-LP PCI Express Root Port' > class = bridge > subclass = PCI-PCI > pcib2@pci0:0:28:7: class=0x060400 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d178086 rev=0xf1 > hdr=0x01 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Sunrise Point-LP PCI Express Root Port' > class = bridge > subclass = PCI-PCI > isab0@pci0:0:31:0: class=0x060100 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d4e8086 rev=0x21 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Intel(R) 100 Series Chipset Family LPC Controller/eSPI > Controller - 9D4E' > class = bridge > subclass = PCI-ISA > none3@pci0:0:31:2: class=0x058000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d218086 rev=0x21 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Sunrise Point-LP PMC' > class = memory > hdac0@pci0:0:31:3: class=0x040380 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d718086 rev=0x21 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Sunrise Point-LP HD Audio' > class = multimedia > subclass = HDA > none4@pci0:0:31:4: class=0x0c0500 card=0x20688086 chip=0x9d238086 rev=0x21 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Sunrise Point-LP SMBus' > class = serial bus > subclass = SMBus > em0@pci0:0:31:6: class=0x020000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x15d88086 rev=0x21 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Intel Corporation' > device = 'Ethernet Connection (4) I219-V' > class = network > subclass = ethernet > none5@pci0:58:0:0: class=0xff0000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x522910ec rev=0x01 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.' > device = 'RTS5229 PCI Express Card Reader' > > > Is there anything else I can try? (any other module I should be loading) I think there's some ongoing work in the following PR for (what seems to be) your card reader: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=204521 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 17:43:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9750332CBA for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:43:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguelmclara@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pj1-x102e.google.com (mail-pj1-x102e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49g3dc0NGLz4M2W for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:43:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguelmclara@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pj1-x102e.google.com with SMTP id m2so5009882pjv.2 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:43:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cotOXBj40ICOg0ZUyLqfNwFa6qPBTyhmFm7CcECKS9Q=; b=q+y6T3KTtapSPACdtrfSI6Y6fTMUdHxYE5jSVCXzyFgRt7HVdhkh5Z5Hp/bjIhb+cl ZIZNSBzhAnl/zmy2BQLbm8Av0ZQ5tB/3tAXPpMy3/KUikX2JznzFL8yvTd6inyyTKu/F hRGXEPW5m9yHVB3ZLG87gAkUSuIzP/OxnNA6BaPlVOZx/t9gUwyNE+1RahDIGgJEG5Mc x542fm9cp8AZwTcv1mVMLZVFFnLC4EtG1W3T+NlVwx/yrqZMMuJoJlrssKMvtVTVXJUH jAB6ZbJF7ssGsdZojUrZtuPZFaKJnyILRqESu+WC1y3FiMdzMlnaaaVYpi833D+WLILJ QIrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cotOXBj40ICOg0ZUyLqfNwFa6qPBTyhmFm7CcECKS9Q=; b=tKGQKHbL7kpmf4x64B07LvuhH3zfpNX9FSH+SmA51Mw2s3RawSrGUBobK5pjxsxE7D exE3vbA9qDHISi3gIxfMZ00K8qKtB9N7zfpuG4Z3ziz1K7bIc5Le4AiYC6HRDDhG+aTh pT2jn8i1VLbZ7mI91GJIFC4WmewghSMyuCoGE8vuueUec6zftxvDFUNn1LlcTM2eBebx FbumdxBCX61/drb9TZ3hO1UvvYz7cFt3n2/Gjb6Bm91E37Ds1P+Vbbi/akZDghGhQVEP FNRElQKHYvWWpO+pqGjzqTzrVATOp+d1NcG1gVMK9ED7go9jETfzHXPkt3iimMh/ydEO aIAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kA0caKwcm5Ni9Rcw7Iysj5Psv55elh7zKwa0u3bGqI2cB8AU/ r87RKuJtRxfRSmApINbCiJ4eWndxlzZm874R4rY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrqMZr22z4NAPZ/ARzqbWXeupYgj5b/fZT9iJTdt7APyFOCzQHFziuNbLC06PvymLj1u8u48R0InsZAldzmLI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4d09:: with SMTP id c9mr13687315pjg.137.1591551810299; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:43:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <41d3d94d-2da1-9c6f-38a8-d0af1cc2fc50@yuripv.dev> In-Reply-To: <41d3d94d-2da1-9c6f-38a8-d0af1cc2fc50@yuripv.dev> From: Miguel C Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:42:54 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: No SD Card support on FreeBSD 12.1 - intel NUC (NUC7i5BN) To: Yuri Pankov Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49g3dc0NGLz4M2W X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=q+y6T3KT; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of miguelmclara@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=miguelmclara@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.020]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.64)[-0.637]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:43:32 -0000 Interesting I search in bugs.freebsd.org and didn't find references of RTS5229 but I'm glad you have better search skills (or eyes) than I do :D That does seem to be it, I'll follow up on it. thanks From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 17:46:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891BC332D75 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:46:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49g3hq1vXYz4MYP for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:46:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.139.70]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C2C24E679 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 12:46:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Valeri Galtsev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: Minimal skills Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 12:46:11 -0500 References: To: FreeBSD Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49g3hq1vXYz4MYP X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.37 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.139.70:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.02)[0.024]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.60)[0.596]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.15)[0.148]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:46:20 -0000 > On Jun 6, 2020, at 8:17 PM, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: >=20 > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:06 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> = wrote: >=20 >> My advice: NEVER, ever, learn Java, for if you do, you'll never want = to >> use another language and that could be a handicap in a new = developer's >> career. >>=20 >=20 > I switched 10 years ago to Java after 15 years of C/C++ (and an odd > assortment of other languages) and certainly agree with the idea of = not > wanting to use another language. Think of Java as the family SUV, = not > particularly fast and nimble when you need high performance or very = low > level work but what is it good for nothing is better (rock solid code = that > doesn't require the above). That being said you should learn it but = learn > it with other languages. >=20 To the OP: As someone already said in this thread: Java is proprietary, and Oracle = who bought out Sun Microsystems (the creator of Java) started charging = money end users of applications written in Java. Enough said, use your brain end find extra reading if necessary. Just my 2 cents. Valeri >=20 >>=20 >> On 06/06/2020 08:22, roberthuff@rcn.com wrote: >>>=20 >>> I do agree that if one intends to do substantial programming in >>> the current environment ... learning an object-oriented language is = a >>> really good idea. >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 17:57:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF81332B7A for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:57:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguelmclara@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pl1-x62b.google.com (mail-pl1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49g3xB5yD7z4NR2 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 17:57:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguelmclara@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id x11so5739399plv.9 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:57:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dIYUOWoMqNHhtMucmi8XM2qnZlMzijjfxDEw4aZGDqI=; b=SlqwkEPFGxgZq98sCgZdKNC9zOeNvGbfkSTYQr8Laxd/wIDC8mE7UlW5UeOAYXxNpN Cs0/5Lm92sC1VLkHKr6E0+hqZI07SECX/Utsfg1KdrHRdVGd3OL/vTwk+ptEne7aIVnG IO6MVXrNipmtZ+UahYhbD90LRrnLIMByClAwuEoYDkICC1X234EXoqAkQNkmwbkUOZzW gve6SaBW09HOR9wfxZsKv5dZFcCfSqsaT1n2osrbw3ZwW2qtAn+vKieD6zM80seRw8IH fLKWxEq5EmPvjUzTrhdlEquDJ85LbshdY/bvHNAzB8343XPZyygP3Nk/7N57z7D7Luwz 6NkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dIYUOWoMqNHhtMucmi8XM2qnZlMzijjfxDEw4aZGDqI=; b=LFl1NXuhqGUTA6yDKH/tBY1MF11NpA8OjD1lbf2ZIObY4D9wxOdnsmswk6++w28KlZ DRJX3AK1hbE56Fjzt2yItA1CRh8+hWM2lDbfiJLFwPV3Aww++INCgdmREIVoZOdKPqkf 7c+GaJh+ir3SpY2rHKc7ihUMZ/GunJD8618jAcbgV9knzdAgs1Pr+mWuXBTCQSkyGaWM vltEBBIHQXtJUkgN/kZMRCe7dcZC/TYzue/Lt2GwheASVEQiIBb2hFSOMxrIV9L4+pss KNgDcyQVi0+YrTkzSU6SEY2IQrEXHUK0jtqUR2Ex/exWtgu6SS8vP/jys3QDJFqRdpNq 9VSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530eIZoclRf03ao/hHh3FTIRn7YxWEaNGczUOFc9J+t4SCDwiUoZ ovpYZ5RJcYuGXXnvt7wI0vsh5Wzi89YIN9s6eEs+XY4Uve4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxgQb+vgXUcLN2pO1i7Vx0EshWydFgZp80Gl77NnvBauVKCcI5Cz4sJdJBE/fGiq/jxsO5oD+laiPCvjlhIuRc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d18b:: with SMTP id fu11mr10777939pjb.102.1591552621175; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:57:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <41d3d94d-2da1-9c6f-38a8-d0af1cc2fc50@yuripv.dev> In-Reply-To: From: Miguel C Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:56:24 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: No SD Card support on FreeBSD 12.1 - intel NUC (NUC7i5BN) To: Yuri Pankov Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49g3xB5yD7z4NR2 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=SlqwkEPF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of miguelmclara@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=miguelmclara@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.020]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.011]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.64)[-0.639]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:57:04 -0000 If anyone else bumps it to this thread it seems to at least detect it: I cloned https://github.com/hlh-restart/rtsx make; make install load the module and pciconf -lv now sees it: rtsx0@pci0:58:0:0: class=0xff0000 card=0x20688086 chip=0x522910ec rev=0x01 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.' device = 'RTS5229 PCI Express Card Reader' I tested removing / inserting a card, and although there's some issue at time (this seems to be know) it did detect the card and size: Jun 7 18:54:43 r2d2 kernel: rtsx0: Interrupt card inserted/removed Jun 7 18:54:43 r2d2 kernel: rtsx0: No request running Jun 7 18:54:43 r2d2 kernel: mmc0: on rtsx0 Jun 7 18:54:43 r2d2 kernel: mmcsd0: 16GB at mmc0 50.0MHz/4bit/256-block I'll post the rest of my finding in the github repo/ PR But just wanted to confirm you are correct Yuri and many thanks for pointing me to it. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 18:33:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECBF333E72 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:33:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49g4lh6p9Pz4SZx for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:33:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id v11so14704144ilh.1 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 11:33:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PmHQ1ct/ri3Ra1V7R69IcogqwrSfd7nUJdNoq19Y4QE=; b=TtvBcI2nW3jjZEAE67DxNQqM7k8uLG3n+n81Mxf6CLTuWnNQa/+ijzjnTjPDRF/8ni Q6SVALD439CtJGrgBM7fb6myNhG/FxHzscxQyAFS0yL6QbQk/hiVaUpn4KvCxc8ZGufZ UKfV1PWTGmQpS7UaJ/mydYiOWkvS+VC/kvLX4U3yMoWiGI3ftkpTmZT4kSnqq1fHZ2M1 xLke8QPzZfZTWPBduZH8ySOh0GH1X7omw3KlPjdmgHfLCcYgpenJ2AGBBesiU1V3Ju58 csqdiG9UZ8aOmJglbP1NMlx4qzMXS4JNzMEhvi2TsUkbvqfxqTmQq1vkDpKZRL0txO61 MOhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PmHQ1ct/ri3Ra1V7R69IcogqwrSfd7nUJdNoq19Y4QE=; b=TGGLEdAir6PKR2Ztea5RA9m5c27W+ARw3ArUnsBdw7oA+M5Z5LbLJGySvpu71Ahk36 Ynf/5aqRgFB92SpyePySXILSzdEs04XoYRnxaMrmg9qU/wbP0JOlRG/PnGywBAfuzqqb 4h0SXO8GAbybOUSBXwuw6Zg2YuY9VkomjuMy33qSSYmjKGZ03xIIvO+3MaqXgnx4zskl 7zv6MOJ2CtDEY8zU5PrI5hSL/FZdTs4HTIAkTzHbizN5rAPUfmJTZFD9nCYAyey6JGwR EXx0WHE3Vv1gaMyR+7qbMi9aad3AtGzN7QIa2LFYi3/t0V3uPIz8WOgdP5VHvlkCW0+L EPGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532RaLz0DGNqjCn2LBmkWLfVq/v3i8lJO5xST/a2Im3pwWPoXII6 rGwP9aC7tnNtpBJ8GIggzGeiwtWP7V3ww/0BoEIgO0fo76s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx4N0ZWbbPhx908I+pazG2MGMASzf5nsyT8WrJdMQiMn+/tgyJXy1qXdisKhTufqUlJmIiLcXAJ3E7Vx2juBz0= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e4a:: with SMTP id s71mr18219787ilb.119.1591554831830; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 11:33:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 14:33:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49g4lh6p9Pz4SZx X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=TtvBcI2n; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::135 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.93 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.015]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::135:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.908]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 18:33:53 -0000 On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 1:46 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > > On Jun 6, 2020, at 8:17 PM, Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:06 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> wrote: > > > >> My advice: NEVER, ever, learn Java, for if you do, you'll never want to > >> use another language and that could be a handicap in a new developer's > >> career. > >> > > > > I switched 10 years ago to Java after 15 years of C/C++ (and an odd > > assortment of other languages) and certainly agree with the idea of not > > wanting to use another language. Think of Java as the family SUV, not > > particularly fast and nimble when you need high performance or very low > > level work but what is it good for nothing is better (rock solid code > that > > doesn't require the above). That being said you should learn it but > learn > > it with other languages. > > > > To the OP: > > As someone already said in this thread: Java is proprietary, and Oracle > who bought out Sun Microsystems (the creator of Java) started charging > money end users of applications written in Java. > > Where on Earth did you get the idea that Oracle charges/gets royalties for 3rd application in Java!?!?!??!?!? I have *NEVER* paid a dime for any application and/or anything else written in Java (nor is there any language in the legal material that comes with the language and/or any of the tools that would even allow for a royalty)... the language spec is completely open and anyone can write a compiler or a JVM (all the specs are completely available)..... IBM has made one so have a few other people including GNU. Please direct me and the OP the a *RELIABLE* (and authoritative source) that says what you claim? For counter proof here is a link to the current language and JVM specs https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se14/html/index.html https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jvms/se14/html/index.html Oh and the license for OpenJDK can be found at https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.html (Yes you read that right GPL 3.0 w/ linking exception [the end user can charge for programs written in Java if they wish but Oracle gets no royalties!]) -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 18:48:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8306E33417E for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:48:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49g55030P3z4Tx9 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:48:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id x27so8844467lfg.9 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=/KM6EMKGr2fIy5ChPW6fQsTf+3wElfPeVkPTGPQF4sA=; b=GPHGA7EhRwRs9qER48lCwbrHO1aiOOWZIC0/PoNUlgIgHl5k8Da1cMj2GFLaBlHMFh aI3dOXGlWkO95EYE1WqeMn0AJcpjN67d4Dc+0uiXz40qm7BG7khlJ70SnB2Ozd+6XGEL 6tCiYRDB9F/rxJJblhiLbCKXToGCa7uG7RdTIXj9IF8h3RzY2l5IcO8X0O0huQl0SAxH Du5tNtU1QsUuhiPGLfCa+aYid67dML52vuNg9KL2RDPq8NwsA6GoRL1Y4qeQ79e4hduc 1d/SYXwNRuSL90W7RTwGRUdNiHnDdmv3oAUhp1UdgFcZ4jzVixKfIvzgB+8UOoGjMAEN cWZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/KM6EMKGr2fIy5ChPW6fQsTf+3wElfPeVkPTGPQF4sA=; b=SfLjbqnwZNXD1J3NQU5cKSCrIZ6Y4p4EGRyE8ZlA4VMXLExqc1wAZOgkDACGivm0YH mBUa3uNz1iVfwVL6NalHgiSa1NClv3TdoxhrG/75VcpRWxOVp03JFC5N/piqv/zzZNEW +QBuj/MFFHbS3VLLV/+xBuVco72irQzWjMYwyv/577NcUyFzCot2sfoqQ5Ffa7OtcoPc HuyBoAULNkjg66HT4adp8/oZndwKKUvHgl5VmbQ8wngZZaat9J869fuDCxQfYAuFNE5q NJiDbMetxvBumDploldoV+mK+aXZ7vCGDwtSOkTWUo7ma16Rqni/YHQ0g6tpFdUW6ewa 0w/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531WIxLLEa/mbyHPfYLcUQm4KtwX2Bf8fp1abSyv/xlIpU8Bhs0z Ua74EnLFSXbgvqCq7jm0nRS3XEUO7vTlblA4mXo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwmZxdUpUNeqG7Q2M88smZQ2rqRlrHxiHrelVy05clRrNFisdFi2mpK6T8GAJXTVCUtkZaY8/e5br1xVsp5pxc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:2358:: with SMTP id j85mr10856757lfj.182.1591555729554; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 11:48:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 11:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Donald Wilde Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 11:48:49 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Valeri Galtsev , FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49g55030P3z4Tx9 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=GPHGA7Eh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::135 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.85 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.80)[-0.803]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.043]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 18:48:54 -0000 On 6/7/20, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 1:46 PM Valeri Galtsev > wrote: > >> >> >> > On Jun 6, 2020, at 8:17 PM, Aryeh Friedman >> wrote: >> > >> > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:06 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> My advice: NEVER, ever, learn Java, for if you do, you'll never want >> >> to >> >> use another language and that could be a handicap in a new developer's >> >> career. >> >> >> > >> > I switched 10 years ago to Java after 15 years of C/C++ (and an odd >> > assortment of other languages) and certainly agree with the idea of not >> > wanting to use another language. Think of Java as the family SUV, >> > not >> > particularly fast and nimble when you need high performance or very low >> > level work but what is it good for nothing is better (rock solid code >> that >> > doesn't require the above). That being said you should learn it but >> learn >> > it with other languages. >> > >> >> To the OP: >> >> As someone already said in this thread: Java is proprietary, and Oracle >> who bought out Sun Microsystems (the creator of Java) started charging >> money end users of applications written in Java. >> >> > Where on Earth did you get the idea that Oracle charges/gets royalties for > 3rd application in Java!?!?!??!?!? I have *NEVER* paid a dime for any > application and/or anything else written in Java (nor is there any language > in the legal material that comes with the language and/or any of the tools > that would even allow for a royalty)... the language spec is completely > open and anyone can write a compiler or a JVM (all the specs are completely > available)..... IBM has made one so have a few other people including GNU. > You can use java 8 for your own purposes but Oracle's license agreement on their website clearly states that only up until Java 7 is it truly free. :-( This change occurred several years ago now. I don't have time to get the citation to support Valeri's assertion, but it is true. -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 18:59:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6D0334909 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:59:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd41.google.com (mail-io1-xd41.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d41]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49g5K96pJVz4WVJ for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 18:59:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd41.google.com with SMTP id k8so3925770iol.13 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 11:59:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nNR787RiON2zBlouX9YwEGZhT/8M2P9pa45bv88wxRs=; b=r+YDC36OYX320jVvC7+C22LevPK677l3XOcFlWiTcNbdBI/52GdLNPt5NmqgWZKbrn q8Bf4hbOKpKMFVCsVjjPsoNdxbGbyeDPXZ2rBkUf6aDPDPD+6PjYHhy8939ui8e7YxCJ /FmLLi1Dz0oLApN+VfDI948pu86oQiLCoZKoA0Q0xrVYim+yM+NG0VB7p9fUoGhpAoEH oByVEV76Fl64FFoR8na9+XiKEdq0AC0aZNMiLjsQQD/LdcAy3Q59pJcwboffqNmGuwl5 xo4XLEszZhDW510TTtVHXCM1CgtcP/1FGS6NZvCVJEI7e/lFHQipeXi5QUZxcxKp4b6S 32QQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nNR787RiON2zBlouX9YwEGZhT/8M2P9pa45bv88wxRs=; b=m1yMc67J1nW7xHR8GlDQq3nuRvVqqPkplsdTMZEwUu43oAFLA8Q/VDMMGQ1J2QkM0G ACGKlnm5k5oUjAtoNRffgajXgBHBbNjVC8EHRrQ9ovzTdnMPwcHH5x6hq9Su0T9y0mUM GT9vnjmhSLaT7TMvvRoGgKl2zUg5U/xUELMbQuvlimNdk7QDkJsK+7KLF5RYLcnbyobi vNRJuYc61bhsd7wBzGe/yHWCZSFuKvLmIQ7uEWSG1sK5dzrDWfSZ9xYHnn9xlc0CRgd1 3/ahV8bikm2FkL9Ly+m2LlKhdkSk4ce4uakIMZ1H3sJgJ5ShFKSR9kmRfmzaSwjvRacn uxjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ZScQRyQ3tNSvBc7kvcl/w0T41vFJPcvfm3dwDQbUKZxgHGMWM B8exrWvDdzHUGD75OzrERVOtvoKkHFg7qKZE+Is= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx+a12NzceCFL1D7phRZkhdDFVrAL+HpcmfVpCfu1+OsFERGGRizRtsb6IXf8+wRZNoi6IGynnFnb6FOWlj1hc= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5915:: with SMTP id n21mr18663505iob.103.1591556365005; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 11:59:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 14:59:12 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: dwilde1@gmail.com Cc: Valeri Galtsev , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49g5K96pJVz4WVJ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=r+YDC36O; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.02 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.018]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.021]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d41:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.983]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 18:59:26 -0000 On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Donald Wilde wrote: > On 6/7/20, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 1:46 PM Valeri Galtsev > > > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > On Jun 6, 2020, at 8:17 PM, Aryeh Friedman > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:06 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> My advice: NEVER, ever, learn Java, for if you do, you'll never want > >> >> to > >> >> use another language and that could be a handicap in a new > developer's > >> >> career. > >> >> > >> > > >> > I switched 10 years ago to Java after 15 years of C/C++ (and an odd > >> > assortment of other languages) and certainly agree with the idea of > not > >> > wanting to use another language. Think of Java as the family SUV, > >> > not > >> > particularly fast and nimble when you need high performance or very > low > >> > level work but what is it good for nothing is better (rock solid code > >> that > >> > doesn't require the above). That being said you should learn it but > >> learn > >> > it with other languages. > >> > > >> > >> To the OP: > >> > >> As someone already said in this thread: Java is proprietary, and Oracle > >> who bought out Sun Microsystems (the creator of Java) started charging > >> money end users of applications written in Java. > >> > >> > > Where on Earth did you get the idea that Oracle charges/gets royalties > for > > 3rd application in Java!?!?!??!?!? I have *NEVER* paid a dime for any > > application and/or anything else written in Java (nor is there any > language > > in the legal material that comes with the language and/or any of the > tools > > that would even allow for a royalty)... the language spec is completely > > open and anyone can write a compiler or a JVM (all the specs are > completely > > available)..... IBM has made one so have a few other people including > GNU. > > > You can use java 8 for your own purposes but Oracle's license > agreement on their website clearly states that only up until Java 7 is > it truly free. :-( This change occurred several years ago now. > > I don't have time to get the citation to support Valeri's assertion, > but it is true. > Then Wikipedia MUST be wrong? A direct quote from there article on OpenJDK (1st paragraph): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenJDK "OpenJDK (Open Java Development Kit) is a free and open-source implementation of the Java Platform, Standard Edition (Java SE).[1] It is the result of an effort Sun Microsystems began in 2006. The implementation is licensed under the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL) version 2 with a linking exception. Were it not for the GPL linking exception, components that linked to the Java class library would be subject to the terms of the GPL license. OpenJDK is the official reference implementation of Java SE since version 7.[2][3][4]" And from the the OpenJDK web site itself: "Will Oracle change the OpenJDK licensing model? No. The OpenJDK Community continues to thrive with contributions from Oracle, as well as other companies, researchers, and individuals, and the GPL-based licensing model is one large part of this success. Oracle has no plans to change it." https://openjdk.java.net/faq/ As to the language spec license and jvm spec license: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se14/html/spec-license.html (Apache derived license due to needing the patent infringement clause). [There are no patents that pertain to Java per se] -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 7 19:05:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CF6334B36 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:05:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from web@3dresearch.com) Received: from smtpg.telissant.net (smtpg.telissant.net [104.225.1.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49g5Rk5hFLz4X8K for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:05:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from web@3dresearch.com) Received: from sacada.3dresearch.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtpg.telissant.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49g5Rc2n66z1lvcf for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:05:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at telissant.net Received: from smtpg.telissant.net ([127.0.0.1]) by sacada.3dresearch.com (sacada.3dresearch.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s6ahti6749_v for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:05:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from elettra.3dresearch.com (unknown [71.112.240.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: elettra@sacada.3dresearch.com) by smtpg.telissant.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49g5Rb6p4Qz1lvcc for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bufftemp.3dresearch.com (unknown [10.61.70.200]) by elettra.3dresearch.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B4033DD5B for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bufftemp.3dresearch.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bufftemp.3dresearch.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 758009C574 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 15:04:03 -0400 From: Janos Dohanics To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Odd problem with ftp/filezilla Message-Id: <20200607150403.18df86ea313cfce044d0e3fb@3dresearch.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49g5Rk5hFLz4X8K X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of web@3dresearch.com designates 104.225.1.73 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=web@3dresearch.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.71 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.985]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ENVFROM_SERVICE_ACCT(1.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[3dresearch.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.944]; FROM_SERVICE_ACCT(1.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:smtpg.telissant.net]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:104.225.1.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[71.112.240.206:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 19:05:07 -0000 Hello All, I can upload some files, but not others. Server: 12.1-STABLE r361323 and pure-ftpd-1.0.49_1 Client: 12.1-STABLE r361661 and filezilla-3.40.0_5 14:24:15 Status: Initializing TLS... 14:24:15 Status: Initializing TLS... 14:24:15 Status: Verifying certificate... 14:24:15 Status: TLS connection established. 14:24:15 Status: Verifying certificate... 14:24:15 Status: TLS connection established. 14:24:18 Status: Logged in 14:24:18 Status: Starting upload of KiwiBox.gif 14:24:18 Status: Logged in 14:24:18 Status: Starting upload of 980111-008.jpg 14:24:19 Command: CWD /htdocs 14:24:19 Response: 250 OK. Current directory is /htdocs 14:24:19 Command: TYPE I 14:24:19 Response: 200 TYPE is now 8-bit binary 14:24:19 Command: PASV 14:24:19 Response: 227 Entering Passive Mode (x,x,x,x,167,166) 14:24:19 Command: STOR 980111-008.jpg 14:24:19 Response: 150 Accepted data connection 14:24:19 Response: 451-Error during read from data connection 14:24:19 Response: 451 Transfer aborted 14:24:19 Error: File transfer failed 14:24:19 Status: Starting upload of 980111-008.jpg 14:24:19 Status: Retrieving directory listing of "/htdocs"... 14:24:20 Status: File transfer successful, transferred 5148 bytes in 1 second 14:24:20 Status: Starting upload of apctest.output 14:24:25 Status: Skipping upload of 980111-008.jpg 14:24:25 Status: File transfer successful, transferred 443 bytes in 5 seconds 14:24:25 Status: Starting upload of camping_pictures.htm 14:24:26 Status: File transfer successful, transferred 4323 bytes in 1 second 14:24:26 Status: Starting upload of zzz_Job_log.ods 14:24:28 Command: TYPE I 14:24:28 Response: 200 TYPE is now 8-bit binary 14:24:28 Command: PASV 14:24:28 Response: 227 Entering Passive Mode (x.x.x.x,157,110) 14:24:28 Command: STOR zzz_Job_log.ods 14:24:28 Response: 150 Accepted data connection 14:24:28 Response: 451-Error during read from data connection 14:24:28 Response: 451 Transfer aborted 14:24:28 Error: File transfer failed 14:24:28 Status: Starting upload of zzz_Job_log.ods 14:24:28 Status: Retrieving directory listing of "/htdocs"... 14:24:29 Status: Skipping upload of zzz_Job_log.ods 14:24:29 Status: File transfer successful, transferred 806 bytes in 1 second 14:25:25 Status: File transfer successful, transferred 6274877 bytes in 65 seconds 14:25:25 Status: Retrieving directory listing of "/htdocs"... 14:25:26 Status: Directory listing of "/htdocs" successful 14:25:29 Status: Disconnected from server Successful: -rw-r--r-- 1 ftpusers ftpgroup 5148 Feb 20 2011 KiwiBox.gif -rw-r--r-- 1 ftpusers ftpgroup 6274877 Apr 16 15:37 apctest.output -rw-r--r-- 1 ftpusers ftpgroup 4246 Feb 20 2011 camping_pictures.htm Unsuccessful: -rw-r--r-- 1 ftpusers ftpgroup 0 Jun 7 14:24 980111-008.jpg -rw-r--r-- 1 ftpusers ftpgroup 0 Jun 7 14:24 zzz_Job_log.ods The same 12.1-STABLE computer also is a host to a Virtualbox/Win7 instance with filezilla-3.40.0 installed, and no uploading problems from there. Could you please give me a hint? -- Janos Dohanics From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 00:26:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 348F833C284 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:26:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gDZM33BRz3ylD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:26:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.139.252]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5B3B4E652 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:26:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Valeri Galtsev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: Minimal skills Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:26:16 -0500 References: To: FreeBSD Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gDZM33BRz3ylD X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.19 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.16)[-0.161]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.61)[0.608]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.14)[0.138]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 00:26:20 -0000 > On Jun 7, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Donald Wilde wrote: >=20 >> On 6/7/20, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 1:46 PM Valeri Galtsev = >>=20 >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Jun 6, 2020, at 8:17 PM, Aryeh Friedman = >>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:06 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> My advice: NEVER, ever, learn Java, for if you do, you'll never = want >>>>>> to >>>>>> use another language and that could be a handicap in a new >> developer's >>>>>> career. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I switched 10 years ago to Java after 15 years of C/C++ (and an = odd >>>>> assortment of other languages) and certainly agree with the idea = of >> not >>>>> wanting to use another language. Think of Java as the family = SUV, >>>>> not >>>>> particularly fast and nimble when you need high performance or = very >> low >>>>> level work but what is it good for nothing is better (rock solid = code >>>> that >>>>> doesn't require the above). That being said you should learn it = but >>>> learn >>>>> it with other languages. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> To the OP: >>>>=20 >>>> As someone already said in this thread: Java is proprietary, and = Oracle >>>> who bought out Sun Microsystems (the creator of Java) started = charging >>>> money end users of applications written in Java. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>> Where on Earth did you get the idea that Oracle charges/gets = royalties >> for >>> 3rd application in Java!?!?!??!?!? I have *NEVER* paid a dime for = any >>> application and/or anything else written in Java (nor is there any >> language >>> in the legal material that comes with the language and/or any of the >> tools >>> that would even allow for a royalty)... the language spec is = completely >>> open and anyone can write a compiler or a JVM (all the specs are >> completely >>> available)..... IBM has made one so have a few other people = including >> GNU. >>>=20 >> You can use java 8 for your own purposes but Oracle's license >> agreement on their website clearly states that only up until Java 7 = is >> it truly free. :-( This change occurred several years ago now. >>=20 >> I don't have time to get the citation to support Valeri's assertion, >> but it is true. >>=20 >=20 > Then Wikipedia MUST be wrong? A direct quote from there article on = OpenJDK > (1st paragraph): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenJDK >=20 > "OpenJDK (Open Java Development Kit) is a free and open-source > implementation of the Java Platform, Standard Edition (Java SE).[1] It = is > the result of an effort Sun Microsystems began in 2006. The = implementation > is licensed under the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL) version 2 = with a > linking exception. Were it not for the GPL linking exception, = components > that linked to the Java class library would be subject to the terms of = the > GPL license. OpenJDK is the official reference implementation of Java = SE > since version 7.[2][3][4]" >=20 > And from the the OpenJDK web site itself: >=20 > "Will Oracle change the OpenJDK licensing model? >=20 > No. The OpenJDK Community continues to thrive with contributions from > Oracle, as well as other companies, researchers, and individuals, and = the > GPL-based licensing model is one large part of this success. Oracle = has no > plans to change it." https://openjdk.java.net/faq/ >=20 > As to the language spec license and jvm spec license: >=20 > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se14/html/spec-license.html > (Apache derived license due to needing the patent infringement = clause). > [There are no patents that pertain to Java per se] >=20 This is just general thought not addressed to anyone in particular. For the moment it indeed is true that openjdk is free. While Sun = Microsystems was behind Java I was quite certain there will be no = changes neither for end user use of Java, not for openjdk. Sun = Microsystem did have that reputation (at least, in my book). Oracle has = different reputation (again, in my book). And charging end users of java = applications was not a surprise for me. I am not saying openjdk will = have the same faith, but if that happens, it will not come as a surprise = for me. Now, it is everybody=E2=80=99s own judgement people should rely on in = estimate of how useful their skills in programming in Java may be in = some future to come. They still may be valuable even if you shift your = field out of open source domain, so do your own thinking. Just my 2 cents, as always. Valeri >=20 > --=20 > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 00:50:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5633333CE85 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:50:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gF6N4H6xz42Dr for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:50:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.139.252]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F38B24E652 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:50:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Valeri Galtsev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: OT: Minimal skills Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 19:50:34 -0500 References: To: FreeBSD Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <2B169B55-6D7C-45D2-BCB1-03F0D1948EDA@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gF6N4H6xz42Dr X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.25 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.139.252:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.02)[-0.021]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.58)[0.580]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.09)[0.093]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 00:50:37 -0000 This is totally OT, so I am purposefully top posting, and leaving = portion of message just so it contains names of two companies. When Oracle bought out Sun, there was a joke: how we should call the = system now? the answer is simple, keep repeating Sun - Oracle again, and again, faster and faster and you will get it right at some = point: snorkel ;-) I hope, this will give people some loughs and get their focus away from = heated discussion. No, I was not the one who made the joke, but I really = liked it when I first heard it. Valeri > On Jun 7, 2020, at 7:26 PM, Valeri Galtsev = wrote: >=20 > While Sun Microsystems was behind Java I was quite certain there will = be no changes neither for end user use of Java, not for openjdk. Sun = Microsystem did have that reputation (at least, in my book). Oracle has = different reputation (again, in my book). From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 00:53:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE5233CF98 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:53:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gF9V1776z42kQ for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:53:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id i25so2129435iog.0 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:53:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d1f3FjppGOcdiWybePWiVHG4qa1OI+M2ki+giK3PlFk=; b=PNhHYncYnDsyxUMfvg6A8kn3gOZ0laDS6Ny6ObbmvKHpfx4pj76hMmCa3T7PxLpCoO FSx0SkIzEIPK53BB6dSROX42n3nNApxo5dL0jjwSd5zduYaptKSVVYmdltvCxJxQKwbP 01es6LK6EiVNPCU6awq+kMF5dwly0wl7cj1ZmV/PVQ8mEWgQBbcHjooKqZVf04t+58FB hDsYTbomKZ+IMV+9NYS2Lug/TlFkClf7UZe3BVkC4ib1kCuIV39EAtFCez5QsWYDq8GQ HbIVgfC1IhKOChWWpcznc/JfqRk0VMXh7hfI7ZzKLW+1yuLKUuACfS99FrQ3okIw8Yq/ CkEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d1f3FjppGOcdiWybePWiVHG4qa1OI+M2ki+giK3PlFk=; b=bUmdmZ/DBXW1jrNKlAKfpRgyRp2HaDVrKZ1WBAUdTWA9i7+BOSay5rE+Ywwunm8hc1 ujmkTgtajTehAIUOYv/rZdnTQPtRAkT37JEse7JA9znkcu8U7Wlxr3kpwLMiJ+4Sjfg3 a7sQj4cPWMakTpN69JoMGNLyBxMzYImY1LJOPn+6fIZHOWY/QAkyB6UdhSYW1kwuNV7S rkA8Wg41wir3xtklDnY585kDsrsQM28PQAVpgbxP5ihE0J7Wr9YV9780+QGEh18JJ09i NBUB7uz7tn+OkVDe4uUbJyxBALgBsfTHvbMt1broYCYf5YoqtIaekMyHdnbA/rBX770G lDiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532vuM/lZpL4LWhPRPCxnEN0VGNowWG6UeVdt41ep8SbTHcvNG1i MJ72VCaEZISwxmxr5mfIDzbL2r6i2AiEiHbenPVqrXyOhEk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxye6lnaBaKvo95Uy+xq8Q+wv5UX9+66UFJWPxGOCink4pRnpV4s8jETMtiAVnq+tgnc/1mwSyFVFyzyZ99c80= X-Received: by 2002:a02:b704:: with SMTP id g4mr16567672jam.138.1591577596941; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:53:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 20:53:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gF9V1776z42kQ X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=PNhHYncY; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.23 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.015]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.21)[-0.207]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 00:53:19 -0000 On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 8:26 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > > On Jun 7, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Donald Wilde wrote: > > > >> On 6/7/20, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 1:46 PM Valeri Galtsev < > galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Jun 6, 2020, at 8:17 PM, Aryeh Friedman > > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:06 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> My advice: NEVER, ever, learn Java, for if you do, you'll never wa= nt > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> use another language and that could be a handicap in a new > >> developer's > >>>>>> career. > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I switched 10 years ago to Java after 15 years of C/C++ (and an odd > >>>>> assortment of other languages) and certainly agree with the idea of > >> not > >>>>> wanting to use another language. Think of Java as the family SU= V, > >>>>> not > >>>>> particularly fast and nimble when you need high performance or very > >> low > >>>>> level work but what is it good for nothing is better (rock solid co= de > >>>> that > >>>>> doesn't require the above). That being said you should learn it b= ut > >>>> learn > >>>>> it with other languages. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> To the OP: > >>>> > >>>> As someone already said in this thread: Java is proprietary, and > Oracle > >>>> who bought out Sun Microsystems (the creator of Java) started chargi= ng > >>>> money end users of applications written in Java. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> Where on Earth did you get the idea that Oracle charges/gets royaltie= s > >> for > >>> 3rd application in Java!?!?!??!?!? I have *NEVER* paid a dime for any > >>> application and/or anything else written in Java (nor is there any > >> language > >>> in the legal material that comes with the language and/or any of the > >> tools > >>> that would even allow for a royalty)... the language spec is complete= ly > >>> open and anyone can write a compiler or a JVM (all the specs are > >> completely > >>> available)..... IBM has made one so have a few other people including > >> GNU. > >>> > >> You can use java 8 for your own purposes but Oracle's license > >> agreement on their website clearly states that only up until Java 7 is > >> it truly free. :-( This change occurred several years ago now. > >> > >> I don't have time to get the citation to support Valeri's assertion, > >> but it is true. > >> > > > > Then Wikipedia MUST be wrong? A direct quote from there article on > OpenJDK > > (1st paragraph): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenJDK > > > > "OpenJDK (Open Java Development Kit) is a free and open-source > > implementation of the Java Platform, Standard Edition (Java SE).[1] It = is > > the result of an effort Sun Microsystems began in 2006. The > implementation > > is licensed under the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL) version 2 > with a > > linking exception. Were it not for the GPL linking exception, component= s > > that linked to the Java class library would be subject to the terms of > the > > GPL license. OpenJDK is the official reference implementation of Java S= E > > since version 7.[2][3][4]" > > > > And from the the OpenJDK web site itself: > > > > "Will Oracle change the OpenJDK licensing model? > > > > No. The OpenJDK Community continues to thrive with contributions from > > Oracle, as well as other companies, researchers, and individuals, and t= he > > GPL-based licensing model is one large part of this success. Oracle has > no > > plans to change it." https://openjdk.java.net/faq/ > > > > As to the language spec license and jvm spec license: > > > > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se14/html/spec-license.html > > (Apache derived license due to needing the patent infringement clause). > > [There are no patents that pertain to Java per se] > > > > This is just general thought not addressed to anyone in particular. > > For the moment it indeed is true that openjdk is free. While Sun > Microsystems was behind Java I was quite certain there will be no changes > neither for end user use of Java, not for openjdk. Sun Microsystem did ha= ve > that reputation (at least, in my book). Oracle has different reputation > (again, in my book). And charging end users of java applications was not = a > surprise for me. I am not saying openjdk will have the same faith, but if > that happens, it will not come as a surprise for me. > So by your logic someone should not learn C/C++ because there are commercial applications written in them like Windows and MS Office!?!? > Now, it is everybody=E2=80=99s own judgement people should rely on in est= imate of > how useful their skills in programming in Java may be in some future to > come. They still may be valuable even if you shift your field out of open > source domain, so do your own thinking. > According to IEEE's annual survey of what languages are used the most (all domains/combined totals) [ https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-top-programming-languages-= 2019} Java is #2 and has been #1 or #2 for more than 10 years. It beats out everything but Python. Also a very quick look at ports shows 121 ports in the Java category (there are Java based ports not even listed in there like www/tomcat [from apache.org]) so it is most certainly used on open-source projects! Before saying something you might want to take your own advice and do your own thinking based on facts instead of unfounded gut reactions. > > Just my 2 cents, as always. > > Valeri > > > > > -- > > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 01:38:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59E333D972 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 01:38:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from mout0.freenet.de (mout0.freenet.de [IPv6:2001:748:100:40::2:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.freenet.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gG986tdMz46V0 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 01:38:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from [195.4.92.163] (helo=mjail0.freenet.de) by mout0.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji6jh-00012H-AY for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 03:38:01 +0200 Received: from [::1] (port=42254 helo=mjail0.freenet.de) by mjail0.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji6jh-0006o9-9b for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 03:38:01 +0200 Received: from sub6.freenet.de ([195.4.92.125]:55036) by mjail0.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji6h3-0006bM-B2 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 03:35:17 +0200 Received: from [154.213.3.117] (port=12084 helo=[172.21.86.103]) by sub6.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305:256) (port 587) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji6h3-0003hP-3R for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 03:35:17 +0200 To: FreeBSD Mailing List From: Wesley Subject: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:35:14 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originated-At: 154.213.3.117!12084 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gG986tdMz46V0 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley@freenetMail.de has no SPF policy when checking 2001:748:100:40::2:2) smtp.mailfrom=wesley@freenetMail.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.96 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.16)[0.164]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freenetMail.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.05)[0.046]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.85)[0.850]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2001:748:100:40::2:2:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5430, ipnet:2001:748::/32, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 01:38:05 -0000 greetings, There were freebsd and netbsd (maybe others?) in BSD world. What points did they focus by design? what are their use scenes then? Thank you. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 03:14:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E34333F8C6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 03:14:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gJJY5Jrtz4HS8 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 03:14:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.25.204]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1McIYO-1j5U6Y3Sg8-00ceFp; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 05:14:35 +0200 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 05:14:34 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Wesley Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:mUQY85Ux0cE0FTDGfeyZF/H3d3TcbOJGUFvzpXnjpIr5zT/tPCj RAEz4p15ynYNmWbnfl0Be8P9xq6B/fSXU1PYhVnS7ruuMjVKlSwaheI+t36j//b0+S0SWp1 m7Gk1xU2etz0L0K/yWNAjm+42EUIIuyScZJeYp1MyOv9W+9nvOigZSw4xTZYCKIWujScuqU y5YA1YsrVUTblCY9SuCxA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:zAqlP8dGQJs=:f9lII88rrw9d6oeZkwSTgj zhvlh68qJGiIIND6NymHyh91w5Ikj8XaR9dOkwHyF81ZmCNjspTZadvhzKC8tYCpu6DTwAYGr ClEvrBl83Z2NzTcnSn1nEfWZAmo1WaBqPKIGUyyFfYQlcfrlUxdL5iz43szZlwYTMFcal6gfD 3TaBfibwarhLY9QOQ18DWF8s9USENJG/kUUqiNxKGUNLlhlSXFmYw+8msu7lnvRwAx1YSO98x 58ZkX1VOegodT6wXvhlNeSEmXRLnfbJiBQLGO25p/tW3XBRO2b4ZpUMB/27fHCrOJMbqmuIWE j0rzROOMmhezuie7gQwfVpl7fvpOIHGqO8CPeLrIcTuhlC1Ru5XW/lh6szuKPnV4GuHiomkxd J4QUn81oFQqQZGuJ20j6QC4p7ha3o9hbInP0StRbdmlaWNHUp89zP61zIvptM7YlUdxs1Rocj 5icDh/qboGuvn4TnT7z2fbA98Kh8wXt56f6rdEV6hPql++Tf0hdI78Xmu2cLIjTm4tZiLGHbO ALIhgHpzf8HiGROQzpuJO2Jh7SMcIxLRpfkjLNfaDmnVTWMvN4hvPheNDcreCSGAGA4sgXDqB wQB2TYSHNVUZqFFjktdl7ACWX92yDXmkXDbFLGSxc/f587WuQi0sr9bvsi/Pf/U1wDvav7rOX rgqZc9yY8UuM7tr0EBOdVzWV8nup+zTkGaschZK17IMDjM6pQT6VQp+mbw/hP4cytkw+JdRMv Bm6oQnN5BTpzHDLOA/wIWuhpk/y0z9caKIjgZv3rOKtnKqkQxnzilgIkfrnhv+mCncwAKAAjM bpV8v0shJ14PYn5lsStCDOTQmO3PvmO0ReMnGuzJRBtcG47pO+RVG10drvc1Grace0pC56U X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gJJY5Jrtz4HS8 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.65 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.22)[-0.223]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.25.204:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.43)[-0.435]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.09)[-0.089]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 03:14:39 -0000 On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:35:14 +0800, Wesley wrote: > There were freebsd and netbsd (maybe others?) in BSD world. Not "were" - are! :-) You missed OpenBSD, the 3rd "big BSD" around today. There are also operating systems derived from those BSDs, such as DragonflyBSD or HardenedBSD (both from FreeBSD). > What points did they focus by design? Even though they are multi-purpose operating systems, their focus is a little different. You can find out from the primary sources of the projects: 1. The FreeBSD Project The Power To Serve FreeBSD is an operating system used to power modern servers, desktops, and embedded platforms. A large community has continually developed it for more than thirty years. Its advanced networking, security, and storage features have made FreeBSD the platform of choice for many of the busiest web sites and most pervasive embedded networking and storage devices. Source: https://www.freebsd.org/ Further reading: https://www.freebsd.org/about.html 2. The NetBSD Project "Of course it runs NetBSD" NetBSD is a free, fast, secure, and highly portable Unix-like Open Source operating system. It is available for a wide range of platforms, from large-scale servers and powerful desktop systems to handheld and embedded devices. Source: https://www.netbsd.org/ Further reading: https://www.netbsd.org/about/ 3. OpenBSD Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time! The OpenBSD project produces a FREE, multi-platform 4.4BSD-based UNIX-like operating system. Our efforts emphasize portability, standardization, correctness, proactive security and integrated cryptography. As an example of the effect OpenBSD has, the popular OpenSSH software comes from OpenBSD. Source: https://www.openbsd.org/ Further reading: https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html > what are their use scenes then? Oversimplified: NetBSD is the candidate for "runs everywhere", so it's very useful for embedded systems and "strange" hardware platforms; OpenBSD has security as primary goal, that makes it perfect for servers; FreeBSD is also used for embedded, servers, and desktops. In an attempt to summarize, all the BSDs can be used for almost everything - from embedded, to laptops, desktops, servers, and "combined forms". In reality, you _will_ find BSDs in all those places, and you will also find them in places where you don't know there is a BSD running, for example in routers, managed switches, NAS, WLAN APs, firewall and other networking appliances. They are also used as development platforms for a lot of other systems. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 04:10:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B99340D9B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:10:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from mout1.freenet.de (mout1.freenet.de [IPv6:2001:748:100:40::2:3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.freenet.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gKXb3VV4z4NjJ for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:10:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from [195.4.92.165] (helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mout1.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji96o-0004M5-QX for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:10:02 +0200 Received: from [::1] (port=36026 helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji96o-0001Yl-Oo for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:10:02 +0200 Received: from sub6.freenet.de ([195.4.92.125]:42122) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji943-00019e-F5 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:07:11 +0200 Received: from [154.213.3.117] (port=46889 helo=[172.21.86.103]) by sub6.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305:256) (port 587) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji943-0007pH-6b for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:07:11 +0200 Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Wesley Message-ID: <0fee3973-287b-c2da-8443-92403aa90881@freenetMail.de> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 12:07:08 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originated-At: 154.213.3.117!46889 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gKXb3VV4z4NjJ X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley@freenetMail.de has no SPF policy when checking 2001:748:100:40::2:3) smtp.mailfrom=wesley@freenetMail.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.42 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freenetMail.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.63)[0.630]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.02)[-0.023]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.92)[0.916]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2001:748:100:40::2:3:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5430, ipnet:2001:748::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 04:10:08 -0000 On 2020/6/8 上午 11:14, Polytropon wrote: >> what are their use scenes then? > Oversimplified: NetBSD is the candidate for "runs everywhere", > so it's very useful for embedded systems and "strange" hardware > platforms; OpenBSD has security as primary goal, that makes it > perfect for servers; FreeBSD is also used for embedded, servers, > and desktops. In an attempt to summarize, all the BSDs can be > used for almost everything - from embedded, to laptops, desktops, > servers, and "combined forms". In reality, you_will_ find BSDs > in all those places, and you will also find them in places where > you don't know there is a BSD running, for example in routers, > managed switches, NAS, WLAN APs, firewall and other networking > appliances. They are also used as development platforms for a > lot of other systems. Thank you so much Polytropon. Do these three have difference on package management? For example, Ubuntu use apt, Centos use yum for package management. Though their main purpose are similar, but usage is different. Regards. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 04:11:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4289340FC2 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:11:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from mout1.freenet.de (mout1.freenet.de [IPv6:2001:748:100:40::2:3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.freenet.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gKYg5wMgz4Nv1 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:11:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from [195.4.92.165] (helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mout1.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji97m-0005Vl-PH for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:11:02 +0200 Received: from [::1] (port=36104 helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji97m-0001fU-NN for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:11:02 +0200 Received: from sub8.freenet.de ([195.4.92.127]:41950) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji956-0001IC-9V for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:08:16 +0200 Received: from [154.213.3.117] (port=54929 helo=[172.21.86.103]) by sub8.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305:256) (port 587) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1ji956-0001tp-1h for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:08:16 +0200 Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Wesley Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 12:08:13 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originated-At: 154.213.3.117!54929 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gKYg5wMgz4Nv1 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley@freenetMail.de has no SPF policy when checking 2001:748:100:40::2:3) smtp.mailfrom=wesley@freenetMail.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.43 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freenetMail.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.63)[0.632]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.02)[-0.023]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.92)[0.916]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2001:748:100:40::2:3:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5430, ipnet:2001:748::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 04:11:05 -0000 On 2020/6/8 上午 11:14, Polytropon wrote: > In an attempt to summarize, all the BSDs can be > used for almost everything - from embedded, to laptops, desktops, > servers, and "combined forms". In reality, you_will_ find BSDs > in all those places, and you will also find them in places where > you don't know there is a BSD running, for example in routers, > managed switches, NAS, WLAN APs, firewall and other networking > appliances. They are also used as development platforms for a > lot of other systems. And, do you know if there is a mobile OS powered by BSD? thanks. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 04:26:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4289C341435 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:26:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from out-mx.anatoli.ws (out-mx.anatoli.ws [177.54.157.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "out-mx.anatoli.ws", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gKvB17Hmz4QKc for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:26:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (unknown [192.168.0.1]) by out-mx.oprbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 864221E00BCA; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:26:03 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=anatoli.ws; s=vnptcm0lqn; t=1591590365; bh=R/A9R0ittUp1uLbnkJKDhuXqHpWCjxTuywyd+o49j/U=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=M7+sv9AYiR5VuHsv/Rnx9WucHVChSPeBoV42idW/xy0qIc/DTh7ciZ3LcVhlg0Wuq rCVByGeDEGUvPfyXqnVUm78jmMZt6AcgrCkffQe+G5leyTuY7j087z0WCG/FELVvY1 My6p/ctUazPqIu3TOsNxWszcohfP2ztGm0wSS9HOS9xuferEhn/Zrc0S82x+QAqf1r I5w5z6RE/+s+KQ6KKz/oWvIIPfH6NzETJBF21BZh2T7iGLLso7WRXZ+6+LorM1s4gM lhszePqFYhYaDTQ+re5NRnDCKxva5Z+5T/0ErJDaVbNB8PB5ZrrSNhsPMRtYLN2Zbh ugaGnFx6/Dgig== Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Wesley , FreeBSD Mailing List References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> From: Anatoli Message-ID: <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 01:26:02 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gKvB17Hmz4QKc X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=anatoli.ws header.s=vnptcm0lqn header.b=M7+sv9AY; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=anatoli.ws; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of me@anatoli.ws designates 177.54.157.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=me@anatoli.ws X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.18 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[anatoli.ws:s=vnptcm0lqn]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:out-mx.anatoli.ws]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[anatoli.ws:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[anatoli.ws,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.63)[-0.629]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.038]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:262287, ipnet:177.54.156.0/22, country:BR]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 04:26:15 -0000 IMO * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, zfs), competes directly with Linux * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS and a really good desktop, but its absence of server-class performance is its weakest side + no zfs (just ffs2) and limited virtualization (no SMP) so not suitable for any serious server load where absolute security is not a must). The king in its niche (paranoid security) * NetBSD: toasters & freezers (runs on anything, otherwise not sure what's the point :), competes with FreeBSD and Linux (and Linux now supports more archs/platforms than Net). IMO no clear vision and thus attracts too little resources both human and economic. IMO midterm not much hope for survival, same as DFly and smaller BSDs. I believe that OS development is an economy of scale (doing things more efficiently or having other advantaged with increasing size) with a tendency for a monopoly in the same niche. There are some features that the larger players establish as a commodity, but that are very time-intensive and complex to develop (e.g. virtualization, wifi ac and now ax). So what Linux implemented more than a decade ago, the BSDs are just catching up now. Linux world had 2 "obstacles" to its almost flawless growth recently (systemd and a ZFS alternative). Now that the things have almost settled up, if they don't commit any more serious errors I don't see how the BSDs (except OpenBSD as it's not a direct competitor) could compete with it in the long term. Now with ZoL/OpenZFS the long-term future even for FreeBSD is not that clear (and the recent iX decisions [1] [2] are a clear sign). [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/truenas-isnt-abandoning-bsd-but-it-is-adopting-linux/ [2] https://www.truenas.com/TrueOS-Discontinuation/ On 7/6/20 22:35, Wesley wrote: > greetings, > > There were freebsd and netbsd (maybe others?) in BSD world. > What points did they focus by design? > what are their use scenes then? > > Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 04:36:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 110933419F7 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:36:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gL6w6wlzz4RM4 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:36:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.25.204]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MYeV1-1jVDLq21dD-00VeWt; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:36:21 +0200 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:36:20 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Wesley Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200608063620.244f5aee.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <0fee3973-287b-c2da-8443-92403aa90881@freenetMail.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <0fee3973-287b-c2da-8443-92403aa90881@freenetMail.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:6bGpCuqyI7fetngVS+saF9cfFc0Fuk5oDUwWpaLD1eyRBPyC3y/ guuzmpc5NjAM181wpK3iWK1KNsbVDReeUwLnqZTzyKBgvhc+p0kwSzvMmpnttGPbUvsvBTG +qOndSsFgaPi+14qifTSdX7Ycx+Bu4wb72xI0NY0NvPo6mA1L2J7RCdET/oGpSxBuKbwFbV yn/KvtqE9O8PLmzrb+WqQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:+36tz2l9GBc=:icR4at0SAPNxiWIj1Rb9ON TKc5zr2diMz8eFsnSwIamneYpa1npfbDf4zjUGdsPWK1CYXIM5t1/3QebyggJChol0C/kTVQp oQ+fjkdFJLwWsXdm34YshiuyY11AfanemAJ8VBrfwVz30yOQLv5rTiQ9PIdkNlIYSLwJWW+ox YFhMarDbvlLkOriMYSZv/V5k8EkwDZ57fWrtihgNLRpXvvDk4TwVz6yETdvxflQhPPB4twZGD SRFd9vk2wJhalOxL/HDsB5Rm5N7BGyWvFPrQVyApK8lCyMGGM9dN/MMgeDTRLqcXMCiRLjp1m iLv9qlmUAjIW+C53pSphsT/QKGwI1SMJ9w4nD5B7ba55Bo1xvFmq1wh5hYrJW2AyGmPVreHsJ thCplSF0FfX35JELvVm1FDsYSTEy49pwVVzGQ3n69HTDcarCKiPXwK+j7/aeo0CzGWJfJpIbx 5QmQ1rFBvWb6Z7lznZMM2k+W8LD2K0Fa3brPsPVSckBX96JC5z3ZJv6Adxgc8WQ2Mc+a4liJu Jx2E2ltMESBmFyen/3lq9uKjCdDfEOlZstZM/gGX+H8GGCqBbeyPBKfcY+H+EcKSHlxGGeLMT luNBXf0iyPeiGHdUZmWBRvZLjxigLWGag18nXAFUdkk+PCz92dZ2tCMbWRf00M5iX3wMjX/Lj BJc3K9a9GWu0RL4P6Ha6DYPbzBmJW4CKNvLq9x/gBvX+qqiX9SygRYN34/5pSJ+uGLUT+x+s3 hzaPu2JzlzjIhGStZvIQo6G2GSFNJzKR1WwL7viSTcsywyTAeTltRAnnIiwbnIFwXxbNzYmzA L5/u6WxetTiELWOKgyFUC8dR4SmYX4TCGZqPGhzYqBk4n8+22SYcf3iT5ZKRTRpYP0PZYME X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gL6w6wlzz4RM4 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.13 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.30)[-0.297]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.25.204:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.55)[-0.551]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.58)[0.582]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 04:36:26 -0000 On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 12:07:08 +0800, Wesley wrote: > > > On 2020/6/8 上午 11:14, Polytropon wrote: > >> what are their use scenes then? > > Oversimplified: NetBSD is the candidate for "runs everywhere", > > so it's very useful for embedded systems and "strange" hardware > > platforms; OpenBSD has security as primary goal, that makes it > > perfect for servers; FreeBSD is also used for embedded, servers, > > and desktops. In an attempt to summarize, all the BSDs can be > > used for almost everything - from embedded, to laptops, desktops, > > servers, and "combined forms". In reality, you_will_ find BSDs > > in all those places, and you will also find them in places where > > you don't know there is a BSD running, for example in routers, > > managed switches, NAS, WLAN APs, firewall and other networking > > appliances. They are also used as development platforms for a > > lot of other systems. > > > Thank you so much Polytropon. > > Do these three have difference on package management? Yes. They use their own package creation and distribution system. However, those systems work "somewhat similar". https://www.freebsd.org/ports/ https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq15.html https://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/packages.html The you use are of course a bit different, but technically, they aim to achieve the same goals. The system TrueOS, ex PC-BSD, derived from FreeBSD, had its own format: PBI = push button install, which was a kind of "everything in one file -> into one subdirectory". > For example, Ubuntu use apt, Centos use yum for package management. > Though their main purpose are similar, but usage is different. Exactly. The same applies for the BSDs. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 04:37:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A90341D5F for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:37:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gL8X5LlGz4RKq for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:37:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.25.204]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M5fdC-1jc8Bs2ZAo-007AH6; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:37:46 +0200 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:37:46 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Wesley Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200608063746.b85b204b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:aLAK2ieYESEF0+B/BETbcGVJvraU3p01AxtiS/zbqgZVntqO0yl dAkuJZTsFzNlxi39KJvbYD7Q3uOvl+cwhizQE52oAsQoYh8ok6bGOQIAEZOlMcY7xvCZFIo An2zemwbySI8JxyEvz9LZltsYcFTARXtgY/tXL0DwUtsaIRyrExHUvOWCQN0E2bSQTPwL7/ D5xESqqoXvcC9V4turL2g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:GVfPRFBojf8=:TFdSgQrj8ZWFDVf6hojnZe E7EeggYUIFmAqG1UDC6DJyA2DjeGKxcwsEs1zdaes2Hcwr+OqpolaE/M0mex1kwx0/2uWObe0 l51n4LgTP1sUgOjws9is+2jjOnFJ/lNM66vOQCr4CGUz5uS4I0a+YuK4FHbmLq3A0fH6+wPB2 fp+mutARx0WWCHz4nsEl5nNjehQg3sPE0OF0L/sEEVKkktu897Ju9qcS5buIPmFwv1XMXf/55 bCQ9ZJRXwzWbWzJ8/AcPwd3aLoBAym0PSq2iCDUEsxCxDQZRlKUvpEVx+/hVgqJYIKv+HW3Cb DI8MEn7cXll8TDy/ARMnX3Yt+BsNFAiCKj0TWnfZ+y3WhvQ7Hj8if8jIKkyZ+7RpFL62Szolz McQUNw1JWEORMInadt36tsYsqzfP+m655hBwrMruHaa3345ThGr6hH/6aLVmeXP6FCdZ1all/ oiYe/EXGoDE6S0B4ULzhi1UWH6no8sBls8DbCVmoX/+tVX/s7PHJGS1RHrBr0C15+EQC28Qqc RvG/HqwyMmjrOkgjcykEcYqW5/KOI0EX9KYss8SeRue+qE3Tlk+dgAeUiiG+xfi8blsg1+RXG gvqz2p5TGac/b2NlCM+1MhzU8HN1vl+oLbhBkhKbr7vGbM3rEKE6Oo3HgxZkoYCC+dj1Q63r2 PwNV6gMex2CKknkd3UQLFlxNtQ4t770klsHlAblL4BUsdvEYBNs0j8mum3/Qi5DCTn1bFGJ1b WMiT29OXqYXudQHxcmoDh9ESawO/X1PIvJNbbOW9+qxFH1cKwDAxbWcMPxEQpVbQU1Yvv7glf QLvyEHIh/XNYMm6D8zQ2w2XLLc6S+mG3JXsV7cdDE2mnf1a0fBDkBDxKOIZ6lI0apd6Ch/L X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gL8X5LlGz4RKq X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.134) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.13 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.30)[-0.302]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.25.204:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.55)[-0.546]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.58)[0.576]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 04:37:50 -0000 On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 12:08:13 +0800, Wesley wrote: > And, do you know if there is a mobile OS powered by BSD? I have never heared of one (and I assume with "mobile OS" you mean something that runs on a smartphone or tablet, right?). However, it's quite possible that such a system already exists in some niche market, and that it is _not_ branded BSD, so we'll never know. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 05:04:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8054342A85 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 05:04:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from merlyn@geeks.org) Received: from mail.geeks.org (mail.geeks.org [IPv6:2001:4980:3333:1::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gLlB4YWrz4Tqt for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 05:04:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from merlyn@geeks.org) Received: from mail.geeks.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by after-clamsmtpd.geeks.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9440FED6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:04:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mail.geeks.org (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 8C051FED4; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:04:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 00:04:15 -0500 From: Doug McIntyre To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gLlB4YWrz4Tqt X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of merlyn@geeks.org designates 2001:4980:3333:1::1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=merlyn@geeks.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.78)[-0.783]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.84)[-0.840]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[geeks.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.15)[0.146]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7753, ipnet:2001:4980::/32, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 05:04:23 -0000 On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 12:08:13PM +0800, Wesley wrote: > On 2020/6/8 上午 11:14, Polytropon wrote: > > In an attempt to summarize, all the BSDs can be > > used for almost everything - from embedded, to laptops, desktops, > > servers, and "combined forms". In reality, you_will_ find BSDs > > in all those places, and you will also find them in places where > > you don't know there is a BSD running, for example in routers, > > managed switches, NAS, WLAN APs, firewall and other networking > > appliances. They are also used as development platforms for a > > lot of other systems. > > And, do you know if there is a mobile OS powered by BSD? Not per-se, but Apple took many parts of BSD into Darwin, which forms the basis of iOS for all their devices. Ie. https://opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-6153.81.5/bsd/ So you could say a bit of BSD is in quite a lot of mobile devices. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 05:44:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1314343567 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 05:44:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from mout0.freenet.de (mout0.freenet.de [IPv6:2001:748:100:40::2:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.freenet.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gMd26pPsz4Yrn for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 05:44:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from [195.4.92.164] (helo=mjail1.freenet.de) by mout0.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiAZn-000346-Gy for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 07:44:03 +0200 Received: from [::1] (port=43766 helo=mjail1.freenet.de) by mjail1.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiAZn-0002aH-FD for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 07:44:03 +0200 Received: from sub3.freenet.de ([195.4.92.122]:59306) by mjail1.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiAXH-0001bw-0K for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 07:41:27 +0200 Received: from [154.213.3.117] (port=23738 helo=[172.21.86.103]) by sub3.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305:256) (port 587) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiAXG-0003bR-Os for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 07:41:26 +0200 Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> From: Wesley Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:41:24 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originated-At: 154.213.3.117!23738 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gMd26pPsz4Yrn X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley@freenetMail.de has no SPF policy when checking 2001:748:100:40::2:2) smtp.mailfrom=wesley@freenetMail.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.89 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.43)[0.430]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freenetMail.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.65)[0.649]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.91)[0.909]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2001:748:100:40::2:2:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5430, ipnet:2001:748::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 05:44:08 -0000 > Not per-se, but Apple took many parts of BSD > into Darwin, which forms the basis of iOS for all their devices. > > Ie.https://opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-6153.81.5/bsd/ > > So you could say a bit of BSD is in quite a lot of mobile devices. Nice to know that. thanks. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 06:09:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77343443DF for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:09:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gNBR4nXgz4cXp for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:09:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:c4ea:bd49:619b:6cb3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 481BE18987 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:09:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from liminal.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:b414:dfc8:8ea2:fe06]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 298ABB0B7 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:09:32 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/298ABB0B7; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: pkg update To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <7b90bcc8-4eaa-e35f-3024-bba8fb99fc51@holgerdanske.com> From: Matthew Seaman Autocrypt: addr=matthew@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJIL80BEADi7/VbnnErDU6pjEhI/SzEZ/HbDRkJ5g7HroAtqIRm6nj8ZwOAgZ/2ZnWn 5F+fXTuLsG0FLNtkd17FoVcuCi5e/GPliXI5cmamV7E1Yz4T8UsJ7RQolimyxVexccKd16Tc AA7B9bFlJSKkBUSD0buj7VjT07xWhRzu6Vgi5r0UjLALYJz977uZA0F1aOGOXREDEAOhdcNc kSNjynqAwDA6dCT1Elpi4key1fYjv4jyDF+GU/YXul2Y/rguA8FCkHd9vyym5eAsLQ5mG00V V9fkEHIpH5KorNVnl/ufHXnkZqmHAZVpFDcrshb7aZ/pL45PXyWgLj+e6etelgj3a2bZi0JF cVdXCnBZVP2oIyYblM11ugTbfCwodORU8a5KfPeztMdAtDr4e+32NTrPdPi5rLT+GUsYz+PL 3A3m3u8bdsFp40DlIrBtSByVjqERxcfhphrEB4J8BXHUG7OAtXkZMlW/PGKDwXJq0O6Z5Tcg YHAoEiSWbXiexHgXNJyP+sqnIlhLWhSJGeJ+C83wqI6oYlZUCW00NkPxcIHnQPV/z+5wQVci TMyaWC2YCIHz4Ljs+TnwWMz0E8PNFDfHVbQ0W4PRGV7gRAqxfL+yKufauIEGbEq8rNDbSwL3 bcUCxR4ZDlaUEUwT4J8naf7rjdgiEYHs2Ig3jeK1+ER4FPG1sQARAQABtCRNYXR0aGV3IFNl YW1hbiA8bWF0dGhld0BmcmVlYnNkLm9yZz6JAlQEEwEKAD4CGwMFCwkIBwMFFQoJCAsFFgMC AQACHgECF4AWIQRyz6whebywJLW1RZADb2ye5/OevwUCXp/jFQUJDjo4SAAKCRADb2ye5/Oe v5lwD/0bhCaxMGrWb1PpmvqwARJRcqcXJOLUJXUvjKrMp97OtbGOucgsmTvBzXR7XaZrW/Y4 t5kquSg39ZellWjeVn2GUc4Cql+IPlGkxYiJu39dHu66iOhgpfOzIZQL7NxFysc+bvY0/XO6 sfNNUcIQ0ywmiOQedoxmcJs/gJo4mAZsf9ltLnlDeCTG8OqsjAKUsxatoGHvZ3wvFeEfdYjJ 9BO1haLm5EnnEnMlmgfopR3oW7oV8p8lIVFwzeHJTCVOv3xoo5o0kXK+YHdOLYWcPM9hiMDq u5AGbfPWw8IsDWFjeCUcgNADCG/DKJ98ld6R7QjDCOh8waKQDSStPxF71YwtUKRMCm7JayrM GhIlFxCfp5P9ALdiTsOctW5ONBBGvyCd3ggVikCxvsIP7rmt+yh5Bd6rz+Q9z/RikugN8ZRA 4g2TwDaM36obseh5VyDSlOkWpIJ7Mi5g8TWnhwy2KGeVvuQh2jeeMzCUBFQ3cV9sifAkcjoK ldsanwjKzqMT8Tf671zALHeWj1VtRjiRGDBPpTPeA/bmqZLAL5kqUejYZeqI7rkUN4cGYW59 o8P9F0GDcDBhoYRQOxPcm+eJMOjr8oDxwfGUJN5QYPEaEXxLfypSYrK8qem5Lp4uIdJfTLrT atLU97HL+POyyhDnvfob54OlY2BqUYL173MpHt17J7kCDQRSUUKTARAAt6FH3HbDFoumOWUu JlDgOQs3wdp2n3IKv7gqzbDdgaoWW7hDTvjO0Cb6p2PGUKEoxMQQoIdDO0pQ9rgr4Sh4VSVC 9WMO/fUwqdrIs2nACIg4OwvNhIccW08S+N72f+yuXWOQ/dv79cwruE26/BEXgIP09MYcOWwc UCXzOoUR3er+jzcsN9uFjcsBVUJLIEru1askHRzCUa5P9S9GAFBwN49HC5IJWEzdLP27FjjO G5UG3+QZahHrjG1i6S3bIYXtaGsqNyfkp9Is7Wpj2kk+s9Ua+YMG/V5YVlbANIexa1yr75p1 W9biqXpCWnB3TaHSfI0G1t9w8K2qhR/Z1/YLIcRzZ2aHJnvbzJYw5Cs1jfNpFytbASsxj0rb ReouftlBvVWFRxsZ+oG1ZXL64/SVKMZAnfBNxd1uajp+HtoQtYoTu88la6zcdnAhOD5JdOnt N2VF8iQnDfPgkidfuSZ1C059xaRPTSRJBgMRDtOlDxgz7Pxx/7L2jwxRY1dq6NGioflY7CCp Gc7bi1K6xnf3lBL8X2nGpRAVsg9Lx1ShIWkgNbTAcPXpXcXlJ1xqz8HS8Twadh6gIfk/RNch BIED9lkVCKHYp/XQb8T8vMwn/kTWUm5WlPkQUFQN4D1b6+dJw4bwn/wiRS8did1MU1OytJB6 tljfEUCx0uKkzqr+33MAEQEAAYkEuwQYAQoAJgIbAhYhBHLPrCF5vLAktbVFkANvbJ7n856/ BQJen+OUBQkOMSYBAonBvSAEGQEKAGYFAlJRQpNfFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3Rh dGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0Yz MDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp5OdNFg//ZqeVdGoKkMvALPzZjGz84+6l0kcM xSN4TfWmec0YpSmDEzCw4/SZoGqHlZb8lcTevmNrNXg6c+wVw6P+Ycl20Nzb98Kt9C5sz+zG VmPPK+3O9gaPnEqlIKnnbxKXXNHQdd8Mf0UTpifMqX0IkWOqhe/tQKGoQ9+feKvLIaToIe/N josW6vJ9YAgFqZ0015zwbElhMNFmgDMOI2SgjBZ9ngP1U82Mqb7/7G9GxHtnwuJBSnPJgN8t av2O9uWPC0N8deyZBH4y9ERBPTFMc46wjkW030olcq7g4hZ55rpPIEyGQZCq4u1gGibbiQJZ EyUQT7BJm70/PeUr3uNjPlQODV/lF5TBvqGHEmlSQfo6Yb/QQx07CK9bvhUSO2XP3ybS8Jwo MZlgZzZcjiPiQF9ot6152/Cp/XrsKgtk+fg5ARZpyywRlQk1JCHRZvhgXIxqNYA04uwdPFcL I4vPiDaLS8mhXHLRZsSpHmIBqqrnam5Lq7iDc39UZrSJMM40oy3iAOI2B7AOCbzxRuEplJd3 E/tEqrnFGcPVN+h52ka74lEyfkwA2RrASWJJcXLN3/VsizEj8okepefzjU/UPnU8sirzeWWo 8Z4uKddovk//NwAPUJbee4vZLjYE6MWdpEoZP9CZXbtIPWuc9Djg16aHOgv44JPokDMaHA27 A4rw2KwJEANvbJ7n856/CZQP/1XGLC6fXn9SsllmWbsBjgERmqqNEz1c7uxqdNcPc3v/p5hG vuJmbg76H+dj9ZiHvStnSg7TQ73TtDbQNlnnAuyN53iYDzDGk8ZkQtWviwvbs1G4VbgB8DA5 Wdpjx/nH5vOpKB+6d9/KPZdjpHJVQydAbEqf6alRyMx2COBKzUg8COTQQtktO7fuXf1jzlOs OiSuHYTgRq7HUoYTvs8S62W2szMdYEBDJ+/j+9q24sKDpJYEnCKfirX5yFeknkRQUUz1Zsyi thnOPgJI1j5kdClSAA6q5LwDorHhzW4LVATqd4ATSeM9yTKSPbskquC3olamX3Bbfl8bT4NP Eot1d8A2FWehpWPrIvl2Tg4nI2/9krighKrrQBkC91A1bJPg4td3msCvrYRkiVFVFNHIO2uD XtTJ+heUmvNM4XlvUTXo7BE9Ew3yLg2B+Ipo5FVJJVPvKfWxVGKVVxBzMhbPYmbwNxE+NKZa J51Tdl+KeDXniadB5DMX/er7bhmG44dQUvz3kDYAX8c1i9vCxVQWNxcV98/ZO5RtXXZxokdh 8IMjqGonk9XlLi5GLbCMww2pQVqWVuQfLZTeVAzklB3dAj5ByJL1WbdIXMekMDWYXaEc+TAy tbaPz1YLJRz2s0tFOULw4LiVQqMobRRl1anfoEiUrSHHeTV1DrA+W1uQuf+cuQINBFJRQrgB EADUWFag56O3CaycayGght1rYWYz7P9/3s7OlqAuEAId8/kSz8jXzAb/Qb6t0247a2MD0gxn jgZQy2OiQOsOTrc31L6tUrLVATL5Q3oKIh9hOlNMA+cRjsgY3UmMaSw+Gftp64EJDBQwBXWT 7CSUEJw4PqzwMPiTHRkmqQfzdfNagFJVqZ0e+cznoLzI9WvkccwLW1kicBYEysX5yOXUQ9/P cKqRWcbxLFznJ16JsxL1DeUct5WRWUxECY2rM0t+AkNRa3NpzskiMUSzFhiGmJo9yyy1RS4d rjMhEn/IcM1sO21ZF/WWuUVkul65qngFnaFDDRQ5lU3AagWhLhmppmK/yabSVfqz38B1APoB WuldYprslTbAOJrL2xFtiH7m9VYbP2aGdwr9V/C27kiNWnm/lYzP9Z+dTFkxw2V+BOjiLWzD DD6pEE7YDhiPyoopadOyXtoJf3aK1OI+DBu3piBA/CDDDvavruM+3mjxUxcOo8w8rMaJzDUD LG0yOyhKWef3UW5ly3CKXe8+m/MZe0GavNBJt0ObLQpPmnn9b2kP/xS0ssszo8uzlfSMiGi9 AedAoRQ7vFXfI0MBb0M8gJ6Ht/+j1b5Al9ABeeA3PRuu+aBJwBRdFp4AV5BsCa0Qb3aqVJUP uBvtY56aWWB9sSfQ1qeu/loRxkJbHhaPJswscQARAQABiQI8BBgBCgAmAhsMFiEEcs+sIXm8 sCS1tUWQA29snufznr8FAl6f45QFCQ4xJdwACgkQA29snufznr9gXRAAoM1Vj0WDukryz52s MM4wPD6ny/uGaL0mTscWvvZZ7sXhJSgdLkYYZeXRuDOZN6K8vCxFB1frploGOHY6z5U3CW/l sEIW0BvEoYi5yLneCIJU2M5Y/8+35ffdV103de+RXP4VpAVf3kNdle7z6xpO452fhw2ymrAV +PgLlRBNVVgPG6NCrSpwLE5B63+guJzwhJ8dQGgi+TQTGHdWz66UQLig1KRON/KFtOlDCJci YLYmnnXIqb60JD8oePfjgyFTHEdXcEllsHtRhtE81Aw6fMeOZigxKaDcDzopS+8RWSHxrFL9 qwCNWL9KycIu2usa5qxBSVf4Q9hr2vFVuQZHnVDvuM6RzJBgD+j7o7xA7DWGv1njPJyoCCmV SRz4XuV2Y2jonNuEipsaftzMFlIkg4yg0s+eknh0cv0IjFTas5FMGX7hQLClnsCy8rzCDzKC J4jNALJ22sdft1CsZjOz7x+aOg5ypDOfR29PmF/gygk2dgt9HjMHcYlOkgsbY0/PwxNIpgYM xI7iELFa7W9ZNZfcWDSaP/VQfsL2/vOHBZzEmqmalQHp5QeZszGDTwr7yR886viXbLV40bBs ZXyVm2yodwsT3B1swxMGASV6ZG9p0bURekwyuN1zjCf2cIr6SrU8gTZjQyAlfDtU+dhvVCfw D2UGgsFXnd7KkBLadQs= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 07:11:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7b90bcc8-4eaa-e35f-3024-bba8fb99fc51@holgerdanske.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="r71TjUsmDlYFGtiHduXd1xt1XNE0Nw2oC" X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:09:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --r71TjUsmDlYFGtiHduXd1xt1XNE0Nw2oC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Nr0uZCtFVmZTwRcGkPu6n3FKhxgefDy5U" --Nr0uZCtFVmZTwRcGkPu6n3FKhxgefDy5U Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/06/2020 04:07, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-06-05 18:35, Brandon helsley wrote: >> my internet connection is up and ping is working, Although I cannot >> update pkg. why am i having this problem? it has happened before but >> starts working again after a few hours usually. this time it is for da= ys. >> >> >> root@machine17:~ # pkg update >> Updating FreeBSDlatest repository catalogue... >> pkg: https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/FreeBSD:12:amd64/;latest/meta.txz: Not Fo= und >=20 > That URL is bad.=C2=A0 If I remove the semicolon before 'latest', it wo= rks: >=20 > https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/FreeBSD:12:amd64/latest/meta.txz >=20 >=20 > My guess is that you have a bad configuration setting (?). That's a good call, but the OP would want to look at the repository config file rather than the global pkg.conf That's either /etc/pkg/FreeBSD.conf or /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/*.conf -- the first is the stock config file which people frequently edit to switch from the quarterly package set to the latest set, wheras the second could be present as an overlay to achieve the same effect. UCL (which is what pkg.conf is written in) has a design feature to merge content from several different configuration files which is at once pretty confusing and incredibly powerful. Cheers, Matthew --Nr0uZCtFVmZTwRcGkPu6n3FKhxgefDy5U-- --r71TjUsmDlYFGtiHduXd1xt1XNE0Nw2oC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEGfFU7L8RLlBUTj8wAFE/EOCp5OcFAl7d1qhfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5 RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0YzMDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp 5OfkXhAArpA4VWqtCCj5w/BPjy8O9NAM8YDXmCYg/G0ImtKImOvqU/bqkMH8kF2o /V81KGQpTiDzWVTlpEQ98cXyppFu8WHLcy1i25Z5NHLOq1w63u6r0U/cFuOFkZtw JmelzwNDngn59pDL6be0p8t4C59Pi8+UYUx1ZGXtRzm5Gx+0gpoCnkQM00duYhm3 lGkbUjKvzzL5T1sv+yWKebpzBuUNZpP6JnoriwJKf0OVJEV/7kaXsRu4BhW5flOW 0skyLnGnompw33PCXYXsmmXBoRPBGSdCpq92qFcFqlToqGjziGuv8XNIdpXA3n89 zA1hT25NmNGUjxZjV71K0bciQQ625ftOn8rqxKn5CCRCE29gVeyd6gizIkDHGE3m HjK6GnRGKF8/wYbjY6OlTpPtIFvmW3wvSuM9sIxMnGKINUieQdgSBodX9kp0rG5U lkV9H7+1lO3Hssu5HXnXbqfSttwOJXIMoJcgQ+YasdHTz0FxrWjOm0lY+7paBFLF uVtbjsZAkPd5qKEchvHrAhubNFzsBpxOuSNZBVPreJ3yoaor3DucCFrT9GUyGszm 8LSseWsLv7wDcVi9DVnpWGMgKzr7+e2ESunvFrC1LmXSFxVA1OqIPf2fcJCuXe3N GjeckJWzchmAGSTMZOpsM546mIuIGZRf02YeHZ7hRFz1qxVTrMc= =Vilr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --r71TjUsmDlYFGtiHduXd1xt1XNE0Nw2oC-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 06:24:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E96E634496A for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:24:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gNXB5JhYz4f2w for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:24:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:c4ea:bd49:619b:6cb3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 53DBF18996 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:24:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from liminal.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:b414:dfc8:8ea2:fe06]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4E9A3B0B9 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:24:57 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/4E9A3B0B9; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: pkg update To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Matthew Seaman Autocrypt: addr=matthew@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJIL80BEADi7/VbnnErDU6pjEhI/SzEZ/HbDRkJ5g7HroAtqIRm6nj8ZwOAgZ/2ZnWn 5F+fXTuLsG0FLNtkd17FoVcuCi5e/GPliXI5cmamV7E1Yz4T8UsJ7RQolimyxVexccKd16Tc AA7B9bFlJSKkBUSD0buj7VjT07xWhRzu6Vgi5r0UjLALYJz977uZA0F1aOGOXREDEAOhdcNc kSNjynqAwDA6dCT1Elpi4key1fYjv4jyDF+GU/YXul2Y/rguA8FCkHd9vyym5eAsLQ5mG00V V9fkEHIpH5KorNVnl/ufHXnkZqmHAZVpFDcrshb7aZ/pL45PXyWgLj+e6etelgj3a2bZi0JF cVdXCnBZVP2oIyYblM11ugTbfCwodORU8a5KfPeztMdAtDr4e+32NTrPdPi5rLT+GUsYz+PL 3A3m3u8bdsFp40DlIrBtSByVjqERxcfhphrEB4J8BXHUG7OAtXkZMlW/PGKDwXJq0O6Z5Tcg YHAoEiSWbXiexHgXNJyP+sqnIlhLWhSJGeJ+C83wqI6oYlZUCW00NkPxcIHnQPV/z+5wQVci TMyaWC2YCIHz4Ljs+TnwWMz0E8PNFDfHVbQ0W4PRGV7gRAqxfL+yKufauIEGbEq8rNDbSwL3 bcUCxR4ZDlaUEUwT4J8naf7rjdgiEYHs2Ig3jeK1+ER4FPG1sQARAQABtCRNYXR0aGV3IFNl YW1hbiA8bWF0dGhld0BmcmVlYnNkLm9yZz6JAlQEEwEKAD4CGwMFCwkIBwMFFQoJCAsFFgMC AQACHgECF4AWIQRyz6whebywJLW1RZADb2ye5/OevwUCXp/jFQUJDjo4SAAKCRADb2ye5/Oe v5lwD/0bhCaxMGrWb1PpmvqwARJRcqcXJOLUJXUvjKrMp97OtbGOucgsmTvBzXR7XaZrW/Y4 t5kquSg39ZellWjeVn2GUc4Cql+IPlGkxYiJu39dHu66iOhgpfOzIZQL7NxFysc+bvY0/XO6 sfNNUcIQ0ywmiOQedoxmcJs/gJo4mAZsf9ltLnlDeCTG8OqsjAKUsxatoGHvZ3wvFeEfdYjJ 9BO1haLm5EnnEnMlmgfopR3oW7oV8p8lIVFwzeHJTCVOv3xoo5o0kXK+YHdOLYWcPM9hiMDq u5AGbfPWw8IsDWFjeCUcgNADCG/DKJ98ld6R7QjDCOh8waKQDSStPxF71YwtUKRMCm7JayrM GhIlFxCfp5P9ALdiTsOctW5ONBBGvyCd3ggVikCxvsIP7rmt+yh5Bd6rz+Q9z/RikugN8ZRA 4g2TwDaM36obseh5VyDSlOkWpIJ7Mi5g8TWnhwy2KGeVvuQh2jeeMzCUBFQ3cV9sifAkcjoK ldsanwjKzqMT8Tf671zALHeWj1VtRjiRGDBPpTPeA/bmqZLAL5kqUejYZeqI7rkUN4cGYW59 o8P9F0GDcDBhoYRQOxPcm+eJMOjr8oDxwfGUJN5QYPEaEXxLfypSYrK8qem5Lp4uIdJfTLrT atLU97HL+POyyhDnvfob54OlY2BqUYL173MpHt17J7kCDQRSUUKTARAAt6FH3HbDFoumOWUu JlDgOQs3wdp2n3IKv7gqzbDdgaoWW7hDTvjO0Cb6p2PGUKEoxMQQoIdDO0pQ9rgr4Sh4VSVC 9WMO/fUwqdrIs2nACIg4OwvNhIccW08S+N72f+yuXWOQ/dv79cwruE26/BEXgIP09MYcOWwc UCXzOoUR3er+jzcsN9uFjcsBVUJLIEru1askHRzCUa5P9S9GAFBwN49HC5IJWEzdLP27FjjO G5UG3+QZahHrjG1i6S3bIYXtaGsqNyfkp9Is7Wpj2kk+s9Ua+YMG/V5YVlbANIexa1yr75p1 W9biqXpCWnB3TaHSfI0G1t9w8K2qhR/Z1/YLIcRzZ2aHJnvbzJYw5Cs1jfNpFytbASsxj0rb ReouftlBvVWFRxsZ+oG1ZXL64/SVKMZAnfBNxd1uajp+HtoQtYoTu88la6zcdnAhOD5JdOnt N2VF8iQnDfPgkidfuSZ1C059xaRPTSRJBgMRDtOlDxgz7Pxx/7L2jwxRY1dq6NGioflY7CCp Gc7bi1K6xnf3lBL8X2nGpRAVsg9Lx1ShIWkgNbTAcPXpXcXlJ1xqz8HS8Twadh6gIfk/RNch BIED9lkVCKHYp/XQb8T8vMwn/kTWUm5WlPkQUFQN4D1b6+dJw4bwn/wiRS8did1MU1OytJB6 tljfEUCx0uKkzqr+33MAEQEAAYkEuwQYAQoAJgIbAhYhBHLPrCF5vLAktbVFkANvbJ7n856/ BQJen+OUBQkOMSYBAonBvSAEGQEKAGYFAlJRQpNfFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3Rh dGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0Yz MDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp5OdNFg//ZqeVdGoKkMvALPzZjGz84+6l0kcM xSN4TfWmec0YpSmDEzCw4/SZoGqHlZb8lcTevmNrNXg6c+wVw6P+Ycl20Nzb98Kt9C5sz+zG VmPPK+3O9gaPnEqlIKnnbxKXXNHQdd8Mf0UTpifMqX0IkWOqhe/tQKGoQ9+feKvLIaToIe/N josW6vJ9YAgFqZ0015zwbElhMNFmgDMOI2SgjBZ9ngP1U82Mqb7/7G9GxHtnwuJBSnPJgN8t av2O9uWPC0N8deyZBH4y9ERBPTFMc46wjkW030olcq7g4hZ55rpPIEyGQZCq4u1gGibbiQJZ EyUQT7BJm70/PeUr3uNjPlQODV/lF5TBvqGHEmlSQfo6Yb/QQx07CK9bvhUSO2XP3ybS8Jwo MZlgZzZcjiPiQF9ot6152/Cp/XrsKgtk+fg5ARZpyywRlQk1JCHRZvhgXIxqNYA04uwdPFcL I4vPiDaLS8mhXHLRZsSpHmIBqqrnam5Lq7iDc39UZrSJMM40oy3iAOI2B7AOCbzxRuEplJd3 E/tEqrnFGcPVN+h52ka74lEyfkwA2RrASWJJcXLN3/VsizEj8okepefzjU/UPnU8sirzeWWo 8Z4uKddovk//NwAPUJbee4vZLjYE6MWdpEoZP9CZXbtIPWuc9Djg16aHOgv44JPokDMaHA27 A4rw2KwJEANvbJ7n856/CZQP/1XGLC6fXn9SsllmWbsBjgERmqqNEz1c7uxqdNcPc3v/p5hG vuJmbg76H+dj9ZiHvStnSg7TQ73TtDbQNlnnAuyN53iYDzDGk8ZkQtWviwvbs1G4VbgB8DA5 Wdpjx/nH5vOpKB+6d9/KPZdjpHJVQydAbEqf6alRyMx2COBKzUg8COTQQtktO7fuXf1jzlOs OiSuHYTgRq7HUoYTvs8S62W2szMdYEBDJ+/j+9q24sKDpJYEnCKfirX5yFeknkRQUUz1Zsyi thnOPgJI1j5kdClSAA6q5LwDorHhzW4LVATqd4ATSeM9yTKSPbskquC3olamX3Bbfl8bT4NP Eot1d8A2FWehpWPrIvl2Tg4nI2/9krighKrrQBkC91A1bJPg4td3msCvrYRkiVFVFNHIO2uD XtTJ+heUmvNM4XlvUTXo7BE9Ew3yLg2B+Ipo5FVJJVPvKfWxVGKVVxBzMhbPYmbwNxE+NKZa J51Tdl+KeDXniadB5DMX/er7bhmG44dQUvz3kDYAX8c1i9vCxVQWNxcV98/ZO5RtXXZxokdh 8IMjqGonk9XlLi5GLbCMww2pQVqWVuQfLZTeVAzklB3dAj5ByJL1WbdIXMekMDWYXaEc+TAy tbaPz1YLJRz2s0tFOULw4LiVQqMobRRl1anfoEiUrSHHeTV1DrA+W1uQuf+cuQINBFJRQrgB EADUWFag56O3CaycayGght1rYWYz7P9/3s7OlqAuEAId8/kSz8jXzAb/Qb6t0247a2MD0gxn jgZQy2OiQOsOTrc31L6tUrLVATL5Q3oKIh9hOlNMA+cRjsgY3UmMaSw+Gftp64EJDBQwBXWT 7CSUEJw4PqzwMPiTHRkmqQfzdfNagFJVqZ0e+cznoLzI9WvkccwLW1kicBYEysX5yOXUQ9/P cKqRWcbxLFznJ16JsxL1DeUct5WRWUxECY2rM0t+AkNRa3NpzskiMUSzFhiGmJo9yyy1RS4d rjMhEn/IcM1sO21ZF/WWuUVkul65qngFnaFDDRQ5lU3AagWhLhmppmK/yabSVfqz38B1APoB WuldYprslTbAOJrL2xFtiH7m9VYbP2aGdwr9V/C27kiNWnm/lYzP9Z+dTFkxw2V+BOjiLWzD DD6pEE7YDhiPyoopadOyXtoJf3aK1OI+DBu3piBA/CDDDvavruM+3mjxUxcOo8w8rMaJzDUD LG0yOyhKWef3UW5ly3CKXe8+m/MZe0GavNBJt0ObLQpPmnn9b2kP/xS0ssszo8uzlfSMiGi9 AedAoRQ7vFXfI0MBb0M8gJ6Ht/+j1b5Al9ABeeA3PRuu+aBJwBRdFp4AV5BsCa0Qb3aqVJUP uBvtY56aWWB9sSfQ1qeu/loRxkJbHhaPJswscQARAQABiQI8BBgBCgAmAhsMFiEEcs+sIXm8 sCS1tUWQA29snufznr8FAl6f45QFCQ4xJdwACgkQA29snufznr9gXRAAoM1Vj0WDukryz52s MM4wPD6ny/uGaL0mTscWvvZZ7sXhJSgdLkYYZeXRuDOZN6K8vCxFB1frploGOHY6z5U3CW/l sEIW0BvEoYi5yLneCIJU2M5Y/8+35ffdV103de+RXP4VpAVf3kNdle7z6xpO452fhw2ymrAV +PgLlRBNVVgPG6NCrSpwLE5B63+guJzwhJ8dQGgi+TQTGHdWz66UQLig1KRON/KFtOlDCJci YLYmnnXIqb60JD8oePfjgyFTHEdXcEllsHtRhtE81Aw6fMeOZigxKaDcDzopS+8RWSHxrFL9 qwCNWL9KycIu2usa5qxBSVf4Q9hr2vFVuQZHnVDvuM6RzJBgD+j7o7xA7DWGv1njPJyoCCmV SRz4XuV2Y2jonNuEipsaftzMFlIkg4yg0s+eknh0cv0IjFTas5FMGX7hQLClnsCy8rzCDzKC J4jNALJ22sdft1CsZjOz7x+aOg5ypDOfR29PmF/gygk2dgt9HjMHcYlOkgsbY0/PwxNIpgYM xI7iELFa7W9ZNZfcWDSaP/VQfsL2/vOHBZzEmqmalQHp5QeZszGDTwr7yR886viXbLV40bBs ZXyVm2yodwsT3B1swxMGASV6ZG9p0bURekwyuN1zjCf2cIr6SrU8gTZjQyAlfDtU+dhvVCfw D2UGgsFXnd7KkBLadQs= Message-ID: <5d3cb5f2-94d0-b16f-763c-03ff4120ed2c@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 07:27:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rlyG7XdoaUm1i2KtwELLlG00sfaBWqtpo" X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:24:59 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --rlyG7XdoaUm1i2KtwELLlG00sfaBWqtpo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="hK5WOiRQ59yQcU5utzv98qtzHRBnyzcJA" --hK5WOiRQ59yQcU5utzv98qtzHRBnyzcJA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/06/2020 08:55, Manish Jain wrote: > This is a known problem with pkg, which sometimes happens for reasons I= > do not know. The following steps should resolve your issue : >=20 > rm -rf /var/cache/pkg/* /var/db/pkg/repo-*.sqlite > pkg bootstrap -f > pkg update -f >=20 Doing this will really spoil your day. The first command removes all of the accumulated knowledge your system has about what packages are installed, meaning the third command will *only* know about pkg(8) for the forced update. Recovering from this situation is quite painful. Even if you did manage to save a list of installed packages this is still undesirable: you will re-write pretty much everything under /usr/local to no real benefit. First, check /etc/pkg/FreeBSD.conf and /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/*.conf for typos. Use `pkg -vv` and look at the 'Repositories' section at the end of that output to see the ultimate repository configuration pkg(8) is using. --hK5WOiRQ59yQcU5utzv98qtzHRBnyzcJA-- --rlyG7XdoaUm1i2KtwELLlG00sfaBWqtpo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEGfFU7L8RLlBUTj8wAFE/EOCp5OcFAl7d2kNfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5 RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0YzMDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp 5OfAbw//dHpxAtOKXjc52FrfWULBUfe95jhPQlT0kuPOxPSVlK2N1hEhYldUBlHo iboPMWx7aa/GaDmhN+KQnpvHGqLqT0GE6buSN5KYYl1k1i1kglOv00DKWYR30K44 mzVc5bZSFGISRLY5z32/I5MSciGjKhXzXAeQe57ZysqWnI4x63DNAnbSmdAgtc0B Cj9EpTRd4kIMydHzo0ejYScctTuqGgT0setxxDUlPbn/s6HEqt+WJFwDF42IBCUi vLCN2X1n8NPsR73BCFd0f+o+q6v0G070xw/VM51MHy5O8K0WAQc4XkHERoI1Jr9H Mj53OPF5Vvsx5/5PolwP8XBQ+zlmami/6AiqPWHl9vLvl8f/Y5TiytBB5w9px32R zjgvGJFfSKsGBeB44OTrUrZQ0OnxCIEyCfXjkUgmWKTpsT4dzIM45t88vchctdPF Cp/7aWDoYucfvZOBwkIrS+Q2rqM57Z+MiYFhiqGJwOjEtFZcZi+PZCqlBYSEZvf5 JggM9vRXLctOupGUQaIrtqJEsC9IbwYG7TPhSgWHlEZXWU71XyqZDEAsoydLbAn/ t4iN/40zRJ91BAjBQQCU8Q8BOFtAXLHleS19tWdWjn6lJVdXvWadVt5GCviAUzin lrg5NLBu9PtfEHCUujzx1EKxrDVLHhvYb1lec4W/XhspNYl7sJU= =VkOu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rlyG7XdoaUm1i2KtwELLlG00sfaBWqtpo-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 06:36:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D18D344A72 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:36:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gNnq6Z08z4g6H; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:36:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id p5so15655951ile.6; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 23:36:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aZZHNZaEgxSb+uYZK4qwlq57CQCyGvf8ghj0xLjawpc=; b=dWCrSE48bLwKwCq2TrYoOVeZ+zjAgPitE/v+GGhtZT+/O0C8GtOE4E8ak2rMfV5y3z YfcbIjdExQSgIktBEfNiDLcaUA15m1O9bDexVeWNF2QNNjb3KVuaat5tWjzq00WARt9m AW08IxAbdE3vUarxKKBRo4niGj11DLi2tGI6U81ZcpehUJyd8iYV5EAzr5hW6jkSBEuQ 17fQS2lfNQpBugZHIrW/Lb5Hyo0S4bkMPZ4inezzdngvNAwkumMIA4ASpm31Q2X7zXmF UuBPDnvvEV4GIG/buGnVa6/MqVR7UhF9QhgAos/VBVYyxt8DMO7tg8SB3cyoksOYCxVm dIaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aZZHNZaEgxSb+uYZK4qwlq57CQCyGvf8ghj0xLjawpc=; b=WIX13oRz+hbXxqYmFmOoVBsnsRxcUK5xkYAcvUG/5Zh6/80V/xJTiRw9cyxVq4Z5TJ ea5ky+ma2mF8nWSb5ZTatIMOFuABMx1ghAK02L3+NAfagtbv+rCxmHAzXsLmo+ASWKg4 2dmk6slyXJnQmDFtkktV8YtejqZJrGSWaSSfFIEHxi8si0gFjo6F1ViUWMHrhYuPeluP 2DMBz3kehDtQ1CaREtCoL/fr3z0wxf/3o1HJHKdrUKmU2wsRihe3sfFJFy52FUrFbl5V Plx2xPBuBQJoeuR5uRuNhIpHLkz/bgi2Ecmta7iPsl5/eI002dl9T+cFYnIz2jgGn02o k5fA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531fF2boBQPwAuzLEuIUgFPtXEfzZsgNxFK0LQCMO9YiC+wOd7BU 4mBzVl8sr3hfXbia4gRGx4KEMxIUanaSw3As1n+H8g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyBPdIcTZlFNtj1MV82bKfPzlTFCrE9J3K0F9lUCc9eau7uHTUu0bF7vCNEGSb1SBJV8YELpkMNIRjRwSBeWqs= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c7c6:: with SMTP id g6mr21067446ilk.49.1591598206477; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 23:36:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5d3cb5f2-94d0-b16f-763c-03ff4120ed2c@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <5d3cb5f2-94d0-b16f-763c-03ff4120ed2c@FreeBSD.org> From: Michael Schuster Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:36:34 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: pkg update To: Matthew Seaman Cc: freeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gNnq6Z08z4g6H X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:36:48 -0000 On Mon, Jun 8, 2020, 08:25 Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 06/06/2020 08:55, Manish Jain wrote: > > This is a known problem with pkg, which sometimes happens for reasons I > > do not know. The following steps should resolve your issue : > > > > rm -rf /var/cache/pkg/* /var/db/pkg/repo-*.sqlite > > pkg bootstrap -f > > pkg update -f > > > > Doing this will really spoil your day. This (and a whole lot of other potential issues) is a good reason to use boot environments (which require ZFS). I've made it a habit to always - create and then mount a new BE - perform all pkg operations on this mounted BE, - temporarily active the new BE - reboot. In the worst case, booting the new BE will fail, but due to the temporary activation, next boot will be with previous one, and you'll be ready for another attempt. Regards Michael From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 07:58:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23A0346AC1 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 07:58:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from 14.mo6.mail-out.ovh.net (14.mo6.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.56.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gQbZ5Zqyz3Zwk for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 07:58:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from player715.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.108.54.119]) by mo6.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F667216CAB for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:49:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from defert.com (ip-146-0-189-240.dyn.luxfibre.pt.lu [146.0.189.240]) (Authenticated sender: 20.100@defert.com) by player715.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3691D12F19E56 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 07:49:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:49:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 17118182185827960836 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudehtddguddvhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfqggfjpdevjffgvefmvefgnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucehtddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepgghinhgtvghnthcufffghffgtffvuceovddtrddutddtseguvghfvghrthdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfefkedvgedvgfdufefgveekgedvkeetkeeugeejheetffdtteevgfdvueevkeehnecukfhppedtrddtrddtrddtpddugeeirddtrddukeelrddvgedtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpqdhouhhtpdhhvghlohepphhlrgihvghrjeduhedrhhgrrdhovhhhrdhnvghtpdhinhgvtheptddrtddrtddrtddpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepfhhrvggvsghsugdqqhhuvghsthhiohhnshesfhhrvggvsghsugdrohhrgh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gQbZ5Zqyz3Zwk X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=defert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 20.100@defert.com designates 46.105.56.113 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=20.100@defert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.01 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[146.0.189.240:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[46.105.56.113:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ptr:mail-out.ovh.net]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[1.001]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.050]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[defert.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[46.105.56.113:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.96)[0.958]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:46.105.0.0/16, country:FR]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 07:58:04 -0000 On 07/06/2020 19:26, galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote: > > This is just general thought not addressed to anyone in particular. > > For the moment it indeed is true that openjdk is free. While Sun Microsystems was behind Java I was quite certain there will be no changes neither for end user use of Java, not for openjdk. Sun Microsystem did have that reputation (at least, in my book). Oracle has different reputation (again, in my book). And charging end users of java applications was not a surprise for me. I am not saying openjdk will have the same faith, but if that happens, it will not come as a surprise for me. > > Now, it is everybody?s own judgement people should rely on in estimate of how useful their skills in programming in Java may be in some future to come. They still may be valuable even if you shift your field out of open source domain, so do your own thinking. > > Just my 2 cents, as always. > Valeri, no offence intended, but you obviously don't know much about Java. Yes, when Oracle acquired Sun they didn't know how to deal with open source, so they had to learn it with OpenOffice and MySQL... ;) With Java they do exactly the opposite: they take care of it. Java hasn't been much used to create desktop applications: they dropped JavaFX. J2EE had its time but was not suited for REST services development: they dropped it. They also added features to comfort Java's position in the language fashion show (e.g. REPL, stream API). They kind of prune and fertilize their rose bush so it can grow harmoniously. Of course, there's a reason for these efforts: Java is mostly used to develop enterprise applications, and the corporate world is Oracle's natural ecosystem. Understand: they know how to make money there, that's what they've always been doing. Conversely, OpenOffice and MySQL were consumer software in a market dominated by Microsoft, no wonder they didn't care much about them. Now, concerning the Java developers community, you also may not know how deep the open source spirit is rooted there. There are cultural reasons for this, one of them being that Windows was, and still is, the worse platform to run Java applications on. So Java developers also have to use some kind of Unix system when deploying their applications. It is also worth noting a great many Java tools are released under the Apache license, which is close to the BSD license. And you may be surprised if you had a look at the wealth of Java open source tools available (e.g. google "Maven repository"). From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 08:04:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2920E347288 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:04:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092075082.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.75.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gQkq5ytFz3bKT; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:04:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=msQjFSA8EsE1AezVck5nCM+lqBbE7UtBtLyiD53HmG7egZa0duU234mEIPVZelmTD4DvtgQAzliItcP3IDUkv2vdyWZ1IgQxYqNY6zkeejvGYvMBiuSkZzKxiddTPyFgpxgWKKmIbriFg+mYD8fXwFpocBUvfaFvGRruk0RwuqNz2ew/2ottwQFkz49j/72IBfCfxsN1zQlJZbvaFf/IX5YXKr2MYf9damKr4oEpVXBiVWa1k02+8EadRZbJCS778PxIib5IuXKcYtfPJT+iF+dhr3w5NDOGzez50nZnGUDgD3qyQ1m5x2Z+oRq58f23Hud3zn2mtRacsquU3YRTZw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=KWY4DSUajywh/ESLrHRKIam3PgeG59MZ7XoXmj3vcuM=; b=LiW1UQTM2HCjsPttV0NB6GIiB8fItt9VsagNmgiFyOCX9MEXMmz6oiLug421xR6eCu+pANwqth48Gkk0wkeJy83rTyPukX22ir+9xGmjQfFq5mtSmz2Pel9cfrw6BFqwSoA5Hnbo66wQERgoTnLRKCuW4NuBQOleyUCRskvAjV7oUHHeYrkgywzTndvgTUezjP7hNT+lkQnYNo+XoXzb7s1G01zLY5EykGnRAsTWs11WXO4axWaT7bWH3EcFakvRk1qSnp/bqvftKGJH7rFbiyQ6U4wEAZp4aUi6CW2/S+CFvojxpJP+FDkZsnoobaE5Dn4STgO2dk8WtW7/XEGR7A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=KWY4DSUajywh/ESLrHRKIam3PgeG59MZ7XoXmj3vcuM=; b=pfmIC2PwL049/dauPJNizFLTLVWZEYu0DEQ5wtIhv2gPxOjN11l/aWlTwO7Smis51Oj4ZletHjD8IWu3lwNqXi6ywdUefVOq8P3AzMOnPJDY7EVH0fuY1hOfi4FBg46ELJoNw+niG630L2GTdj32F4gwB39gi9qsBRrtxp8LjkerlHw8oJXZ6ZSdiBT+zniu12pJOe2jYmz3x1AVm9EXD3KchFgH0a9xt/N5UadGB6U2SGJZ056z0TKP/j28w1awoZcpFJWuWOEPAeEsfGAg4OGMHQE9F5RvXF9gM1lElPQk9yALGnIjtGW2NxlzCvXQi7GgLlofk+S0yNa3B0gmnw== Received: from VI1EUR04FT014.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0e::42) by VI1EUR04HT077.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0e::298) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:04:17 +0000 Received: from DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0e::4f) by VI1EUR04FT014.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0e::172) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:04:17 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:AB7FCA3C3FBF1F83DE3D7AC1030AC49518FE19EE68D9BB54CDAEE153095F1FDC; UpperCasedChecksum:5871ED1ACC12D35C55C7F78C59722D3A753C33F3E216C7741C00E1FE8378AA30; SizeAsReceived:8923; Count:49 Received: from DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cc9:9d58:c027:5919]) by DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cc9:9d58:c027:5919%6]) with mapi id 15.20.3066.023; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:04:17 +0000 Subject: Re: pkg update To: Matthew Seaman , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <5d3cb5f2-94d0-b16f-763c-03ff4120ed2c@FreeBSD.org> From: Manish Jain Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:33:38 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 In-Reply-To: <5d3cb5f2-94d0-b16f-763c-03ff4120ed2c@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ClientProxiedBy: PN1PR0101CA0036.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:c00:c::22) To DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:126::7) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <753e098c-660a-ea9d-9159-c346f96834cd@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.1.5] (45.127.45.102) by PN1PR0101CA0036.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:c00:c::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:04:16 +0000 X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <753e098c-660a-ea9d-9159-c346f96834cd@hotmail.com> X-TMN: [F4lrflISul/jp5XX4BlY/ZQZu6C+sawQ] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 49 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 3fb06919-1ea9-44cc-7300-08d80b828a62 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1EUR04HT077: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: DMP3Cw9EXTvgekwLl3Q0CTfqIR0nUUdblqUkvjan/J2sysYkdNmNakMQ5pBe/7I1eAJD5JUQ8wlpYZOJv74VQxxAXQWPalwrUMsO+vKImxzZIA+btOUfxiyklwXMXbWZJn14ymVYXRWdxgydo58sT1JA4HD2qwRaZSImnlrGU/EUkhcPtiHOg5tsv3AyJ7Is9gV+e9pNyjLGXqpHI23/4g== X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:0; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:; DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: W9ATSLMr/GE6292B26H/eKOa+j2mSoS79NfbmuG13jig6cpw3X6efIdkuIhcOkMydhtDzKhAb/lK6nQkE3mWsfCfuLyINkVtBFkkPrvyeFDw1CFxoFHK4wv3poMR8ger55WB8J+CsnJN6sKBsul4Rw== X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3fb06919-1ea9-44cc-7300-08d80b828a62 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jun 2020 08:04:17.6321 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1EUR04HT077 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gQkq5ytFz3bKT X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=pfmIC2Pw; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bourne.identity@hotmail.com designates 40.92.75.82 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bourne.identity@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.96 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.042]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[45.127.45.102:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.985]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[40.92.75.82:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.43)[-1.434]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.80.0.0/12, country:US]; FORGED_MUA_THUNDERBIRD_MSGID_UNKNOWN(2.50)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[40.92.75.82:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:04:21 -0000 On 2020-06-08 11:57, Matthew Seaman wrote: >> rm -rf/var/cache/pkg/* /var/db/pkg/repo-*.sqlite >> pkg bootstrap -f >> pkg update -f >> > Doing this will really spoil your day. The first command removes all of > the accumulated knowledge your system has about what packages are > installed, meaning the third command will*only* know about pkg(8) for > the forced update. Recovering from this situation is quite painful. Hi Matthew, I would think that the system has about what packages are installed is hived under /var/db/pkg/local.sqlite (which my command pointedly spares out). Regards, Manish Jain From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 08:06:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DC83472D1 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:06:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur04olkn0805.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe0e::805]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gQn102Fkz3bmb; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:06:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=RMUUQ0xzJeHEtKQ6eY4Lww4s/B5qLWHyJ6WspKL4h9IwXl1In7mpgQwAKl8HDmaUI37C3aSk2WK+PA7sH7mngWfUpTxvty/PcqCoVKkCzlzcYpw0nohfO2RA4JOGWbVDGtazNtGex4+YRksHFEPO3gGt19nS5Vmzz8pfmx8e4xV0kPL9UZuomX4lxDUG7pdYa3OjNK1Jlw4kx9fujS4SbFvKb3a9RmXDNTWH/606K3iG/xX+SZFv4TS8v2nlE82PR4P5udxJp4QsEBx/p8TQ93ji5xXPmERR1J6DPIgkz9EF920T8v5w3H/fjeC0aqMyvVvuetcSP6Snm+MXTziqlQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Aw0yYcSB4NOgXwzWl/MUMLb/ZReImFqBK0VmGJxA2kw=; b=EK5nw+rhrhZg7k2t+zh4uXq5/WB7T2X9jFnNA6eU5YrvrxxntkM1rdJE6sn3XzdSuCfXj0ixbLsfO01wJ8kwgrS8mjJ3BeyrJ+9pyppLFlY30yWkU6CPL756OUekw00XqzDuVG65n7r6TGt3L7tM0kxIbzr5hJ/XdnBw1Pst1XsLHJkXN3VKEcJmx+Um8o8sUlc2MZqK3OX3lFxa0CuVe5rxCumtW+BI7ZTB82nEL3C3jteGdATRHSDlftGMeQxnpedaBH0Rmm9FzcsliUL3oYGRUhbRCi8I+lxzFiakSGBxnv4lrRuihfs47Zeeh5c0VG+j2bWtlLqJnqELE0IE3A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Aw0yYcSB4NOgXwzWl/MUMLb/ZReImFqBK0VmGJxA2kw=; b=WNWei5ytEtYC+lOQRhx1soQfAPsHXeGs3FTbs5QV/+gjXlkBONrzEesAfWG7kk22D+mGmEmT+M1aa/LTNuMHGk5cn0zgDNApy34UfkCcYwbN2ZwYjGs1j3FiSGl4iCT5zxbKxAp0ckzdG+hFdUAWRzur+VnOvl5xAwqPeRI69iUzYqjbtJf3e6EOeqdW3CpW6g8c7pvyjq4Wy/3W3iBNo3gds4GrpUV3RmWJ3oS7+t5fRSm66HvxnWk1tjVpf0KQqFKZ2rT0+h+pk18Skxwi04jCf2M0ZDKpObV7LTOnoBFOUBv/R04wGDTTBlJPgTcwrPcL800sUrVEKHkTBwT6jQ== Received: from VI1EUR04FT014.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0e::4a) by VI1EUR04HT244.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0e::347) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:06:10 +0000 Received: from DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0e::4f) by VI1EUR04FT014.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0e::172) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:06:10 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:5A5249F283A7EBD2E87F1F6E7C5F8BA9746881206D6AE8E1AF4E275A59AABB15; UpperCasedChecksum:49000E250495B791F666B3BF393321163B25A3478F2BFBB1080C7119E621C2A6; SizeAsReceived:9037; Count:49 Received: from DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cc9:9d58:c027:5919]) by DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cc9:9d58:c027:5919%6]) with mapi id 15.20.3066.023; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:06:10 +0000 Subject: Re: pkg update From: Manish Jain To: Matthew Seaman , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <5d3cb5f2-94d0-b16f-763c-03ff4120ed2c@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:35:32 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: PN1PR0101CA0044.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:c00:c::30) To DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:126::7) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <9c7d18bc-b679-b38f-33b4-690fb5f4c935@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.1.5] (45.127.45.102) by PN1PR0101CA0044.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:c00:c::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:06:09 +0000 X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <9c7d18bc-b679-b38f-33b4-690fb5f4c935@hotmail.com> X-TMN: [6g+vPslQ81LjdNHL5y64t1DSyxnoSjxz] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 49 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: ef623ec0-d2c1-4cb8-42bc-08d80b82ce02 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1EUR04HT244: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: kQ6j8LNCQFb2VA8jd4IH0gu/81seMsDn7wU1vSnl7Xjp9C8gB7xQZ6Ea7EeOG/x/4RZhmfn+Hf5pS+gNBtba7rgNEHaVynfyEfXDwaSvEVuOlKk+mkA6LFWVDuGwUMIveTTTVSHDlpR0RCUL+P8H49u4R2YhfkRVd0N5gs4W9OpBSHBPL1Ogx4bYvDuAAPX9ye/QsTnLdQxSWgTJZTUwZw== X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:0; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:; DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: lNmPbrWmEHi9BFzAn2m3j+U0W24JYsppqvwp5djFPaV52w3V+2u0KAZtfvHEA64T4hmScibSwJw2YfeqEHAv+9FNYDFIZQRCxctnwNJYbVzQ12NrVDOnG87mJC+wVe6uZq4Pdlh5odgjCF5RUePLcg== X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ef623ec0-d2c1-4cb8-42bc-08d80b82ce02 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jun 2020 08:06:10.5551 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1EUR04HT244 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gQn102Fkz3bmb X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=WNWei5yt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bourne.identity@hotmail.com designates 2a01:111:f400:fe0e::805 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bourne.identity@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.88 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.055]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a01:111:f400::/48:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.989]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[45.127.45.102:received]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a01:111:f400:fe0e::805:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.33)[-1.331]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:2a01:111:f000::/36, country:US]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; FORGED_MUA_THUNDERBIRD_MSGID_UNKNOWN(2.50)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:06:14 -0000 On 2020-06-08 13:33, Manish Jain wrote: > > > On 2020-06-08 11:57, Matthew Seaman wrote: >>> rm -rf/var/cache/pkg/* /var/db/pkg/repo-*.sqlite >>> pkg bootstrap -f >>> pkg update -f >>> >> Doing this will really spoil your day.  The first command removes all of >> the accumulated knowledge your system has about what packages are >> installed, meaning the third command will*only*  know about pkg(8) for >> the forced update.  Recovering from this situation is quite painful. > > > Hi Matthew, > > I would think that the system has about what packages are > installed is hived under /var/db/pkg/local.sqlite (which my command > pointedly spares out). > > > Regards, > Manish Jain Please excuse the typo : that was meant to read "I would think that the knowledge the system has" Sorry, Manish Jain From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 08:34:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBCDE347653 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:34:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gRP55nK5z3dv6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:34:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id p20so17597136iop.11 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 01:34:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=S8h+onXjHmqmauVVsO3wnBhj7Hf+QD2TcvgkvBopPD8=; b=FUu0zDKUtWXgoot/mD6CSbI/DMlilSI6j9PGv9stc0pG0Pl5IJmFHFvRf1N3kK6R9h awNxDTvnWCwPYS47HMcDtCIAWkho9YqASUgIB0Uxq/oI2fU0WS+IvB4WvGDVjJbjMV0M SIZLUsq+F5QrivNOmFYRvzV3d1QvLcdAreijI8iTjntWy8AtameerLWJUNWuYpachAYR L9KKAbDQRYi8+86EmMAkYs319ybtxUue95PECP93DJxtpcbguvHrZ4Z+9fva6/q/kkJZ udaEdBVtwtgxFC4iAvHeBQLFwtVriPX4dQRY4FJZDA+udeEjT6k/TVrr6emYzuu/oC+O bUcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=S8h+onXjHmqmauVVsO3wnBhj7Hf+QD2TcvgkvBopPD8=; b=PHINKwk7EjMFCgcO73xogF5NrzMl7vT9lrli8CFSWMfGnnSL312A5TR3bMo10lswiE Ue9Yg6lCNQWoZKlTQGHlEkdmoACRXc5/EscLuO6jeuOe66j2SLUMb5zPS1u0jrpqXDZ/ 0uGOq3LoTNMGbWH2m6WRd/011aarmuqn8bT47TDnAj8bGDafuxfBtMVg093yyunXufSF Qp3NEL3k8IOMHxxS9x2IXX8thEV1DezhFAYwA1IXJlPLBGaBc/gmQnh2JMmdKXFhr1el ueZeFraXRNY/6556D9v/nAeGZtZZ7BmeSWNXnL2FoL+//rvfeftPXAdDwBNHW2C9GmEV pe+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532bf3+aTSce7afYAgw4LnNBjGd/EvNKmSO/Kp3z6NzZ5romke3U fHNrK+GeRLbvi+Z9ma3qAqz1889WBojt4jdgAbSVAB+AN6w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy0DY9ejWJfUVTQ9nTv0CDEJ/TSrDEvOwdUGQ+1AOXEv29krjsI5svmYRtAOj3ABYQh3lJuTE/IXmIpqBpR2eM= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8e19:: with SMTP id e25mr21199161iod.36.1591605238713; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 01:33:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 04:33:47 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gRP55nK5z3dv6 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=FUu0zDKU; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.14 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.045]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.09)[-1.086]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:34:02 -0000 On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 3:58 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> wrote: > On 07/06/2020 19:26, galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote: > > > > This is just general thought not addressed to anyone in particular. > > > > For the moment it indeed is true that openjdk is free. While Sun > Microsystems was behind Java I was quite certain there will be no changes > neither for end user use of Java, not for openjdk. Sun Microsystem did have > that reputation (at least, in my book). Oracle has different reputation > (again, in my book). And charging end users of java applications was not a > surprise for me. I am not saying openjdk will have the same faith, but if > that happens, it will not come as a surprise for me. > > > > Now, it is everybody?s own judgement people should rely on in estimate > of how useful their skills in programming in Java may be in some future to > come. They still may be valuable even if you shift your field out of open > source domain, so do your own thinking. > > > > Just my 2 cents, as always. > > > > Now, concerning the Java developers community, you also may not know how > deep the open source spirit is rooted there. > There are cultural reasons for this, one of them being that Windows was, > and still is, the worse platform to run Java applications on. > So Java developers also have to use some kind of Unix system when > deploying their applications. It is also worth noting a great many Java > tools are released under the > Apache license, which is close to the BSD license. > And you may be surprised if you had a look at the wealth of Java open > source tools available (e.g. google "Maven repository"). > There are some mascists out there like my team mate who does all her programming by editing Java in Notepad and then uploading it to her FreeBSD VM and compiling it since almost all our Java projects (95% of our work) runs on FreeBSD first and foremost. Due to Java's "Compile once run anywhere" promise people might use our stuff all kinds of places for example the same team mate is using a screen recording program I am developing right now on my FreeBSD 12.1 desktop machine (the same one I am writing this message on) on her Windows machine with near zero modification (doesn't have ffmpeg installed so can't do the final video rendering but oh well). BTW we plan to release this under the BSD license in the next few weeks after I get the first version that is usable by mere mortals (aka end-users). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 09:17:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E43328812 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:17:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic306-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic306-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.205]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gSMP6lF8z40fp for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:17:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: nPWVAoAVM1n8eH.usO2gruR43GHeGO_5bYFrXrrnWVndrWO.p4XH9I6q8ivIZwx _vk9mmmEsH5O4eh99NzQ_esoMve1gEWzRP8eUdbOJka2JteWYGKRBpVaEiQHEXqUepmk3emNoZpy dc5wBnvUkc.Da2tqrHoFmLTPisXTRTGMPCW2PQwUTMlQiTtJ9GKobPPCH7B3_piCpM5Tmw.PQNkm 7VZoe5HFQdavtl1ovsXEX_0iZ0F8mW5WAMR6iJdwFHqz7HCLUAGsgXhWfIwoVJ7q6pYy47zHQYFI l4ChCp.TvzqVp7B4DIrdC3hJbcM_5_hfWy93miJm13qVDWelbAYNvYE4W0TWjbKcDSiFcJ5w5JGY qe_fgioxU6ynksAPRgnktlmxBLfXO0fH5f_xo3SkzWYDTxOFh0YjiwNeWnFonBY0SDyx_WwUBZWv lULykMnQV93k9Ptm4pSkpWWl09_E8qXTh_3XadDqtdyNRzIGk04PQcoM40I58T5W3RxpO9yo.5_K eoqEmPh_uXb_3KecS1SDT.6gBhDfYSN6rMTz5ReMEjxZ0vFWNyAp5tme98IiOJLbKvMjRL1ZSp7X AfzdA0y3uVxOD3mafQ6L_ra.y0nnrZaGAf9YxfBBxZwn43od_0wTjVbKFbF2D9CiLbEjFCtHBOD1 RQrA9oF8KlB1tfteBNEwhnR5uIAunD5MPniWZSVQQuRnt2_1KWyjZTDdNwbsjn9zQ6GEm23MDOjQ ScIvll3nRG9NekTwkntTYT.S.Gn_vdZ3B2Or5iDv4UvO02MtBj2QkVMpqg_LNnGcWBF4c6j_In5_ odt5j1moqy1O6zWVw8NY1D84IVkHUpxWtp2UWqaC7_iQo5tV1Mev5aK8zyo8TbYWUTAKocsyZrqJ X5yQBu0fnOxgYKJGfXnow6k7oiuAYabfwp2f_25s5MttadtX5vuCPfyFGl88FWd4Gg2gobwg21MN hUT8s3hvNqIjDUGJmnJKHEZ65iEstw24cqnQLaTPi7EYU0TYc81zrSvdg.F13jQe8Lxhb1NrJqSP vzHMykGfuPSFD3hSuApCsQKX2Qzy6Avdq_FlIBaFxvNIOAqrLjId6_6paJoUK8ncDegoZhXT9ZxE 6pRiUs69CTgafReL.ywXRzLkvJn_ha1K9RsSVlqnA92Yj.fW0MsONl_XJqUsPXViQAMwZwzE.0aS tILK.cuW5dQo5ACYPWVxaPJl0cph2jxe5N_ytueRmgIf1mfRSIOvWikHDB3JLgfiqKXAUBzyJWj8 vb4fKKIF3LVjns.yBB7firHLnU50BtVCiVLhlu4p18uhoa91pEwNHtNUig1EjFZQJkp.xRpXPlMv bDWXkJzS3VJN0uqBgnrHQVzEwaGjMJDKnXaJOZn1Hxd6GyzyDHDYrXcLYejjZrs_ffN5EhWtw6lD tKvUYEzAll7VC2wrivikJIRfPosUFyjmAu.7_TEjfN5hESdPPU2AyMGYlRn7s Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:17:35 +0000 Received: by smtp426.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d365a5248af1b02218c3c0cebc384dc7; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 09:17:33 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:17:34 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200608111734.7d18c9dd@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gSMP6lF8z40fp X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.09 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.024]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.176.205:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.62)[-0.623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.956]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.176.205:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 09:17:38 -0000 On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:41:24 +0800, Wesley wrote: >> Not per-se, but Apple took many parts of BSD >> into Darwin, which forms the basis of iOS for all their devices. >> >> Ie.https://opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-6153.81.5/bsd/ >> >> So you could say a bit of BSD is in quite a lot of mobile devices. > >Nice to know that. thanks. I would be careful with thinking that iOS and iPadOS have much in common with FreeBSD or that Android has much in common with Linux. For example: The file systems supported by iOS or iPadOS are a limited selection of Apple and Microsoft file systems, there's no compatibility with UFS or ZFS. I don't know if iOS allows to access external drives at all, at least iPadOS does. Linux has got amazing real-time capabilities, Android has got no real-time capabilities at all. They are very, very restricted operating systems, not just for the end-user, also for software developers. Even if they should provide something you consider as very good from FreeBSD or Linux, from one day to another they could deny usage, see http://crudebyte.com/jack-ios/ios7/ . You cannot access or backup iOS or iPadOS devices by a FLOSS operating systems. They could become temporarily inaccessible by FLOSS solutions, see https://github.com/libimobiledevice/libimobiledevice/issues/828 and if the FLOSS solution should work, be prepared that you could damage data by using it, without making a user error. Even by using Appel's iTunes software, what is called a complete backup actually is an incomplete backup. Some data that is important for the user is only available on the device, there's no way to use file sharing, send it by email etc. or to restore it from a backup. Some other data can only be restored from a backup, so there's no way to share it. Some data can be shared, but it could become very complicated. This has got nothing to do with FreeBSD, a few lines of FreeBSD code aren't nice, if some of your intellectual property is captured. FWIW I'm using iPadOS as an audio DAW and for drawing. However, I'm also using a mobile FreeBSD, https://www.nomadbsd.org/ , it's mobile, just without a device to run it. A desktop PC or laptop with an USB port is needed to run it. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 09:47:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C123299FD; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:47:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (net-2-44-121-52.cust.vodafonedsl.it [2.44.121.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gT2L1Nxrz45Mm; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:47:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from alamar.ventu (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 0589lhgi034508 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:47:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be alamar.ventu Subject: Re: Openssl on 11.x and expired certificates [was: IMAP && Server certificate has expired] To: John Capo Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, ports-secteam@FreeBSD.org References: <5e1a71cd-6837-47f1-b485-c583550db48a@unixarea.de> <247ae2fd-a7e8-146b-be43-47ca247cca10@netfence.it> <59211.198.205.123.4.1591457461.squirrel@squirrelmail.mxes.net> From: Andrea Venturoli Message-ID: <3ebe4055-d885-6591-6765-2e845a4385ff@netfence.it> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:47:43 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <59211.198.205.123.4.1591457461.squirrel@squirrelmail.mxes.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gT2L1Nxrz45Mm X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 2.44.121.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.35 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:2.44.121.52]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.003]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.481]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.07)[-1.071]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 09:47:55 -0000 On 2020-06-06 17:31, John Capo wrote: > This worked for me to fix curl on 11.3. Get the Mozilla cert bundle from here: > > https://curl.haxx.se/ca/cacert.pem > > Replace the AddTrust External Root cert in that bundle with a new one from here: > > https://www.tbs-certificates.co.uk/FAQ/en/racine-USERTrustRSACertificationAuthority.html > > Save the existing /usr/local/share/certs/ca-root-nss.crt somewhere and replace it with the modified bundle. Hello. As I said, removing the cert was enough for me; I didn't even need to add the updated one. Of course this needs to be done on each host and each jail therein... and repeated after every security/ca_root_nss update. My question was: is the project planning to solve this? How? Or are we all expected to do the work ourselves on our boxes? I guess patching security/ca_root_nss would be a fast workaround, while patching base openssl would be a lot more trouble. Will 11.4 still have this bug? bye & Thanks av. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 10:07:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC3832A169 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:07:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) Received: from EUR03-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db5eur03olkn0813.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe0a::813]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gTT8263Mz47bP for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:07:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=grcO164Emjf7RrOXLVZ3OLjNdmmW7MXcRqchAP2QG0G+HYftt/g1uuSIHJg7EuikrfPXxmI6zpUQgh5c+klgOy5lwCNnPqRk7nLYP6TGAzIzktWp7tiPRFYeuhBNyUyycJ2DIcZXPYtG5LPLlxu3+ZRovquPgJVyrsLzPtcJBJ6wKLoZfJIDuZmQFrfufrJLZXH15oumIHel4p+tbW3q6lFYGawh4vMCnqGSVfS58BfeYGB6lCZMcQP2sNGt1WCEu9P3+6sFFQbYm2AhmWaf1jp/4uhOYX7aiBJznaWk9pweWUPHHiz7k0GfJq+YsdDyL74wjMWWQetQt5UDXcioPA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=H0N66G6+w3kCFGthzLt4IeUNYh16R4PPMQKU4gGQEWo=; b=GSgaj/jOL/ytNdQUZpO+wzXqecOaj8Mor9x3cORd7xEfS3ZyAvKztbaLUirh/rnSClbVgaZCmV0j9IzzuNXjvUFItYZ/ixKZ8vp2Vhmecpj2B7INIZAFb9B5zWXGRduHjXEBIvTGjIKyqyegCRSHIjiR8VOfwWEEj9f8D5I3zJjiBxlBd1x48nlLCaBIzttozDczWKo5QoMdh+/zap4N9jI49GCHo0WekxCqpb/V5MduewAFLZxkbFkf6flVOhIZ8KMpGW3LUJEfKDT5mtfUD9+DgU2ykumkQJ+lpbNmy23IkKckDhJD8lNR1cjaiIa1RP+beYjqI+BFqgRF0LEWcA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=H0N66G6+w3kCFGthzLt4IeUNYh16R4PPMQKU4gGQEWo=; b=vIVd+YDswOTWfQKZ5sUpR+d6hfz7Jp/Dnksuq5Od26lJgn44Xi7bgtl2BKOCzctOFqgY3ANQxegvxB7vZkK8Te+bww6OzsyGU9vbX6otQo/OmZti0jK3ZcYj6WgEYFislM1cLFffuko79Glt8ePwDKlgfsLeTW+rKE7YyS+Vp6/KqVr77mzTiEkHkjWk1HIzlEcuHSGJhb8JTC0XTJODMyAH44r1U8jOIu/9MWP2a75GEw+fZzaSrPhQptGrVVvnapiA3F99fxWfVQ8k0xctoK2nVoQXx/2Zpp1q8ZRdQrdBGuPUbxLXADh3TzPJPCj1wpLFSlfqA7YCbqjPZ+hJAA== Received: from AM5EUR03FT046.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e08::41) by AM5EUR03HT227.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e08::446) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:07:38 +0000 Received: from DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e08::4b) by AM5EUR03FT046.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e08::164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:07:38 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:DC99583DDBEB02184297020177ABEC38E9C2BBD0000001AFF2C27B0B5DBC173D; UpperCasedChecksum:71D5CBD93F916F53ABC159C25C6216E544B14B5FF971619DA893EEE5D918D928; SizeAsReceived:8987; Count:49 Received: from DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cc9:9d58:c027:5919]) by DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cc9:9d58:c027:5919%6]) with mapi id 15.20.3066.023; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:07:38 +0000 Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <20200608111734.7d18c9dd@archlinux> From: Manish Jain Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:37:00 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 In-Reply-To: <20200608111734.7d18c9dd@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ClientProxiedBy: BM1PR0101CA0003.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:b00:18::13) To DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:126::7) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <8e1ca220-b926-1b8c-b135-0b8b0343fab4@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.1.5] (45.127.45.102) by BM1PR0101CA0003.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:b00:18::13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3066.18 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:07:37 +0000 X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <8e1ca220-b926-1b8c-b135-0b8b0343fab4@hotmail.com> X-TMN: [sjmLqgEUuu/AOhcIjayrAuqgcMS5GTcj] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 49 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: bba2fb44-5c5c-41db-1b04-08d80b93c612 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM5EUR03HT227: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: Huqmcn9Vimd7Crj/ih3ghvMmNeSNQTF7XHDTIvJXbkGCC6Y/uR8HWGfPGlQ2g1Wefjh27jHouvkqTilhNW6Vt2mJeyRqTKmWEsysXqEr6TJLTD9D4bANHQT0eK6sR/xNI6b/djawZExVkxwQPeENKTHZAmX5AtIWn+TlT7DI3bJC06yX3+CnAAvKjDmPaSibZhxhsb5LgHsYSirO14J6lA== X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:0; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:; DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: hiyTTgnEYRty0BSw1dQMWMQ+axwcASzTP+w0x42utKlbaXVvsrCdUH2sma4eLEqY6TNG1tn+ZpJqZ4ve1WjQ+E2D2l5K3ae+1cvB0X4w2t2jo77olQQ4oREcyVRWDX3BjmJI+6519yi9pw2dcmnbIw== X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bba2fb44-5c5c-41db-1b04-08d80b93c612 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jun 2020 10:07:38.7274 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR03HT227 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gTT8263Mz47bP X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=vIVd+YDs; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bourne.identity@hotmail.com designates 2a01:111:f400:fe0a::813 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bourne.identity@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.56 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.048]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a01:111:f400::/48]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a01:111:f400:fe0a::813:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.01)[-1.013]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[hotmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:2a01:111:f000::/36, country:US]; FORGED_MUA_THUNDERBIRD_MSGID_UNKNOWN(2.50)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[45.127.45.102:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 10:07:41 -0000 On 2020-06-08 14:47, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > Linux has got amazing real-time capabilities, Android has got no > real-time capabilities at all. Hi Ralf/others, Just a quick question. I have in the back of my mind to buy a huge - perhaps 256 GB - microSD card. Does Android support cards formatted NTFS/ext4 ? Or is fat32 the only option with Android ? Thanks, Manish Jain From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 10:15:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3BEE32A692 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:15:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10008a05ca1.08f95cd2ef98484045a1b08171c9df05@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gTfM5x4rz48NN for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:15:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10008a05ca1.08f95cd2ef98484045a1b08171c9df05@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591611340; x=1594203340; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=cBqpmFgVQehFEkIP4q2j9MZ2lhSSsHi1OsuXGgQre/A=; b=cmu6hwWDHHZieB0723MK9jqAz/vKNxpkpNGwwalPod85r2w6e1uQxHlWrXXyKmt4l6TILw/V3pdpby+eQAbaGIrJgUD1EZt9rqxBhXKJe6W2B8taHSVHvvW8z3x6ot8UntuuKtsPF8FHMI5C4onoRWHwUbV1pekh3ecY3jMS3mY= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDhhMDVjYTEuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r4.h.in.socketlabs.com (s1-b40f.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.180.15]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:15:30 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r4.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 8 Jun 2020 06:15:29 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jiEoR-000C9Z-P7; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 11:15:27 +0100 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:15:27 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Manish Jain Cc: Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200608111527.9339558b9d56c65910af7a72@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <20200608111734.7d18c9dd@archlinux> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gTfM5x4rz48NN X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=cmu6hwWD; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10008a05ca1.08f95cd2ef98484045a1b08171c9df05@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10008a05ca1.08f95cd2ef98484045a1b08171c9df05@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.75 / 15.00]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.040]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.018]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.989]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10008a05ca1.08f95cd2ef98484045a1b08171c9df05@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org, 4250.82.1d4c10008a05ca1.08f95cd2ef98484045a1b08171c9df05@email-od.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 10:15:40 -0000 On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:37:00 +0530 Manish Jain wrote: > Does Android support cards formatted NTFS/ext4 ? Or is fat32 the only > option with Android ? It can, many devices don't. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 13:21:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5BF32F709 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:21:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gYmR3KsWz4Txp for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:21:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.139.252]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D0834E656; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:21:10 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:21:08 -0500 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> To: Doug McIntyre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gYmR3KsWz4Txp X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.29 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.139.252:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.01)[-0.011]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.15)[-0.155]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.14)[-0.140]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:21:12 -0000 > On Jun 8, 2020, at 12:04 AM, Doug McIntyre wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 12:08:13PM +0800, Wesley wrote: >> On 2020/6/8 =E4=B8=8A=E5=8D=88 11:14, Polytropon wrote: >>> In an attempt to summarize, all the BSDs can be >>> used for almost everything - from embedded, to laptops, desktops, >>> servers, and "combined forms". In reality, you_will_ find BSDs >>> in all those places, and you will also find them in places where >>> you don't know there is a BSD running, for example in routers, >>> managed switches, NAS, WLAN APs, firewall and other networking >>> appliances. They are also used as development platforms for a >>> lot of other systems. >>=20 >> And, do you know if there is a mobile OS powered by BSD? >=20 > Not per-se, but Apple took many parts of BSD > into Darwin, which forms the basis of iOS for all their devices. >=20 > Ie. https://opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-6153.81.5/bsd/ >=20 > So you could say a bit of BSD is in quite a lot of mobile devices. MacOS departs farther and farther away from BSD=E2=80=A6 so some time = ago I scratched MacOS from my list of =E2=80=9CUNIXes=E2=80=9D. = Administering server on MacOS became unbearable for me. I still tell all = Mac laptop owners: the beauty of MacOS is that you have nice GUI, and = UNIX under the hood. Disclaimer: majority of systems I have in my list of UNIXes strictly = speaking can not be called UNIX, as they do not pay loyalties for that = name to AT&T. Valeri= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 13:26:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48AE032F8AA for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:26:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gYtg4XVBz4VWY for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:26:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.139.252]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4660C4E669; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:26:35 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 08:26:33 -0500 Cc: Wesley , FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> To: Anatoli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gYtg4XVBz4VWY X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.05 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.139.252:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.31)[-0.315]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.31)[-0.309]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.03)[-0.027]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:26:36 -0000 > On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:26 PM, Anatoli wrote: >=20 > IMO >=20 > * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, zfs), > competes directly with Linux >=20 > * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS The most secure=E2=80=A6 if you dismiss the fact that one of the = developer (who wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was = simultaneously receiving payments from one of three letter agencies for = several years. Valeri > and a really > good desktop, but its absence of server-class performance is its > weakest side + no zfs (just ffs2) and limited virtualization (no SMP) > so not suitable for any serious server load where absolute security = is > not a must). The king in its niche (paranoid security) >=20 > * NetBSD: toasters & freezers (runs on anything, otherwise not sure > what's the point :), competes with FreeBSD and Linux (and Linux now > supports more archs/platforms than Net). IMO no clear vision and thus > attracts too little resources both human and economic. IMO midterm = not > much hope for survival, same as DFly and smaller BSDs. >=20 > I believe that OS development is an economy of scale (doing things = more > efficiently or having other advantaged with increasing size) with a > tendency for a monopoly in the same niche. >=20 > There are some features that the larger players establish as a > commodity, but that are very time-intensive and complex to develop = (e.g. > virtualization, wifi ac and now ax). So what Linux implemented more = than > a decade ago, the BSDs are just catching up now. >=20 > Linux world had 2 "obstacles" to its almost flawless growth recently > (systemd and a ZFS alternative). Now that the things have almost = settled > up, if they don't commit any more serious errors I don't see how the > BSDs (except OpenBSD as it's not a direct competitor) could compete = with > it in the long term. >=20 > Now with ZoL/OpenZFS the long-term future even for FreeBSD is not that > clear (and the recent iX decisions [1] [2] are a clear sign). >=20 > [1] = https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/truenas-isnt-abandoning-bsd-but-it= -is-adopting-linux/ > [2] https://www.truenas.com/TrueOS-Discontinuation/ >=20 >=20 > On 7/6/20 22:35, Wesley wrote: >> greetings, >>=20 >> There were freebsd and netbsd (maybe others?) in BSD world. >> What points did they focus by design? >> what are their use scenes then? >>=20 >> Thank you. >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 13:40:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78C232FBBF for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:40:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gZBw51ctz4X8Q for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 13:40:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id w18so9774697iom.5 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:40:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=heTD2eEoL0ujiHsVVGCBnKAWSi+yWxKNUIaIOcM8ZHA=; b=pLJbGj4WU0mZP2uOOsdkl16Jqmz/LoyIe10rNDd2pxr+LtGCLmiRtf+6NYRB49xvIN ILxeiDhjF8jHIS0WeQl8FN+jliHqni9fBeYU8+RS9Hw1yZgQYFX9AHaKN/OshLvgb8zi Srr3OadPpOZi4ARHNdCO9Iba5tiCHLajRJd7dhO0mMrpOxC6FsDrz3+uvY0OvV35q9Ph 1bF9XW7aTDuyO2rCPDJk8Nt+X5hJLlJDUyGDTK0ZzrbaTGE7W6hAIlArS9TQCnRAkyxh J+U0vD5wB6gTtu1CnrTXSNweeNu6hE27pSyYU5ccB2yV4jOGlc/mZHh91Lt4z41iuh3Z HP9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=heTD2eEoL0ujiHsVVGCBnKAWSi+yWxKNUIaIOcM8ZHA=; b=OIoyjUg/Y5v5+1cVVMl5AJiQ4FSpRKgk+zZxlzwim0SRWGxBS/TldoMWRBbgrrjK3Y S5iBm4vzHWPSRAH2aQr2+rcf/4ASZquow3eDntH2vlYCXi6iohx2Owevu+kjP0Doa5wN OA9qPAZd/wG9apzrx8g2pJ1BFwcfmmmnp7Kdzf0h7wfcdH5wTMD6IG08pcAerb0S7hMA aCbsMLVVGWgSG4y11b6w7l7AxiNQjj04Ofpqcj6dhIk1GFcTYrdITOhZRSnq//EN5kQ9 r/1rZ/tkiuQjdZdd9pQye6/cv3ku9lG0dK/yo5J7LlzZRmkcj6L8xPCK9DVmfdABxJ0e 9meQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Ys8TKG7QOUJ6kw+fI+CvMi1Y8ssElwEAYAkXDlv7wm3I7hGLv 1/zAuw6PSKLW55VzOGqKJbVrTWG+STL6jgWmtg4WPLY+OWk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy/kQQB2R+ZaLedlDl0ynbKx+kSfs+i2qlKPt20rgH2vCUkoAipmWo23Wh32uhFFSFTEnQzc4r2wfQ+6CnFPK4= X-Received: by 2002:a02:b704:: with SMTP id g4mr18967236jam.138.1591623639625; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 06:40:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:40:28 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: Doug McIntyre , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gZBw51ctz4X8Q X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=pLJbGj4W; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.85 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.07)[-1.067]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.020]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.24)[0.240]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:40:41 -0000 On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 9:21 AM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > Disclaimer: majority of systems I have in my list of UNIXes strictly > speaking can not be called UNIX, as they do not pay loyalties for that name > to AT&T. > Just as with Java your information on the legal status of Unix is ****WAY OUT OF DATE***** from wikipedia article on Unix (end of second paragraph) [you really should stop saying stuff unless you know it to be by objective fact to be true]: "In the early 1990s, AT&T sold its rights in Unix to Novell , which then sold its Unix business to the Santa Cruz Operation (SCO) in 1995.[4] The UNIX trademark passed to The Open Group , a neutral industry consortium founded in 1996, which allows the use of the mark for certified operating systems that comply with the Single UNIX Specification (SUS). However, Novell continues to own the Unix copyrights, which the SCO Group, Inc. v. Novell, Inc. court case (2010) confirmed." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 14:25:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6339B331616 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 14:25:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from out-mx.anatoli.ws (out-mx.anatoli.ws [177.54.157.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "out-mx.anatoli.ws", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gbBZ0mWYz4djM for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 14:25:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (unknown [192.168.0.1]) by out-mx.oprbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47FA31E00BCA; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 14:25:21 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=anatoli.ws; s=vnptcm0lqn; t=1591626322; bh=VsIBxN12Q4cO1kZjIDv8p+lP3QPcJui4rgNki2uRXEw=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=kAyYdjbtGAd1elnSJ8T+p2auQ8CsB841tGxfXGjgMxn0Ca0A7TTxuUgKM0htkOhYv ifaCWx6+K9LCM8ah20Efby69SFQJ4MytCNj8E8n/tc9cZADSVHB5gXXdn5tbeO1lfW Hd85QroYxoqJ5fmbLgIS+gypj2hVZPGdda3oTPoxi4BvK6ttx5x90YyBkdv2hq9wkY 3XfHsDlZZlNeyJInFJ1/qSrhUn0T1PW0gQvzFKF7Y2eKyI/31QZE85yzsMsAi2z9+u 8rqnUjqOlMwS0jWsqTQIA134cFjYt4szmGWQDnkLap5u0/s3qN0524Bv7Ogi9e9Zhb ld9pi38uKGP0g== Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> From: Anatoli Message-ID: <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:25:19 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gbBZ0mWYz4djM X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=anatoli.ws header.s=vnptcm0lqn header.b=kAyYdjbt; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=anatoli.ws; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of me@anatoli.ws designates 177.54.157.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=me@anatoli.ws X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.43 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[anatoli.ws:s=vnptcm0lqn]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:out-mx.anatoli.ws]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.989]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[anatoli.ws:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[anatoli.ws,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.906]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.034]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:262287, ipnet:177.54.156.0/22, country:BR]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 14:25:27 -0000 > The most secure… if you dismiss the fact that one of the developer (who wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receiving payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. Rumors + FUD or do you have any proof? On 8/6/20 10:26, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > >> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:26 PM, Anatoli wrote: >> >> IMO >> >> * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, zfs), >> competes directly with Linux >> >> * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS > > The most secure… if you dismiss the fact that one of the developer (who wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receiving payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. > > Valeri > >> and a really >> good desktop, but its absence of server-class performance is its >> weakest side + no zfs (just ffs2) and limited virtualization (no SMP) >> so not suitable for any serious server load where absolute security is >> not a must). The king in its niche (paranoid security) >> >> * NetBSD: toasters & freezers (runs on anything, otherwise not sure >> what's the point :), competes with FreeBSD and Linux (and Linux now >> supports more archs/platforms than Net). IMO no clear vision and thus >> attracts too little resources both human and economic. IMO midterm not >> much hope for survival, same as DFly and smaller BSDs. >> >> I believe that OS development is an economy of scale (doing things more >> efficiently or having other advantaged with increasing size) with a >> tendency for a monopoly in the same niche. >> >> There are some features that the larger players establish as a >> commodity, but that are very time-intensive and complex to develop (e.g. >> virtualization, wifi ac and now ax). So what Linux implemented more than >> a decade ago, the BSDs are just catching up now. >> >> Linux world had 2 "obstacles" to its almost flawless growth recently >> (systemd and a ZFS alternative). Now that the things have almost settled >> up, if they don't commit any more serious errors I don't see how the >> BSDs (except OpenBSD as it's not a direct competitor) could compete with >> it in the long term. >> >> Now with ZoL/OpenZFS the long-term future even for FreeBSD is not that >> clear (and the recent iX decisions [1] [2] are a clear sign). >> >> [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/truenas-isnt-abandoning-bsd-but-it-is-adopting-linux/ >> [2] https://www.truenas.com/TrueOS-Discontinuation/ >> >> >> On 7/6/20 22:35, Wesley wrote: >>> greetings, >>> >>> There were freebsd and netbsd (maybe others?) in BSD world. >>> What points did they focus by design? >>> what are their use scenes then? >>> >>> Thank you. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 14:29:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988A13316FE for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 14:29:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x242.google.com (mail-lj1-x242.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::242]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gbGs6gt4z4f3M for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 14:29:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x242.google.com with SMTP id c17so20718207lji.11 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 07:29:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FuzTZskJIH+74JC0b8lJySmoypsvVOVmOGQ8D/F0qHE=; b=RkNlaoRuvHaacroL90RPepbf70vrvqcqYgV9QBycnKhnd6kcs9sG3FRJQ3jpp9VOWS +b5/F5XPXRqk49SQp6uco3loHPkd+BBgJVbFS2d7Hsfq+idvXHnyrc8MKF/pZ3f2whHP TCXAQT8tPVPtqVX2iqmCth+qgXZyuWPutPnTpGKAhlNyrbV2SyEUQw5ddRrH6qlC8Vmd EBhhRgTt7V6wxsidlG5lcVrY3hegM+pFKUv88tbk1Yer+LyjelOjLBnuHCP6ILn/M9zw rMgQSpFb6Do0JYzaYuH4EMQSRYn7LIzCw2HuRwb3GFm/6vDDomtRApqkCaMOqrvWPTKH 4niQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FuzTZskJIH+74JC0b8lJySmoypsvVOVmOGQ8D/F0qHE=; b=ETSXTaMSqCz6FoxDh482mZbsBnkYy8dh2uqBq6j6HUHTy1U/jtgvEUs2bZe40Z1ADD mn8IUGTC7R8YByk79DDndxo3Rr1zt6GDOObLr59WmmAUjlMQs3U8VSfKGBP2RaiIgWsF UWoH4SUtpt5iD3S1gwL0Vf3T3n11FoSS6FTouAq2MtUkh3G230tldkKWRhrr84vvjTai M1U31CSDzSK0H9HJpAgkMPqdiGCFa4v4V36KR0SOwDyHu+jyTee9uosefpavsutwf7S1 N4J9gBTz5geTOp1CHnWEPTnmQlawEmWuIsktA533YLQdKUtQhA242HGqJduL5bZW7wGy Eqrg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+KytOx0prBtaLpbCyX1nBy3iaR1o6/DLJ5PB1Rglxs2CC7af2 on0nYGcAF0Z3QWNcuB30Wu/HOvpjat07QYPTAuvRXDJz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxhTjkWDgCdQpVzTKjPRzfyQrALC0kXJpYUJp0aspdAjtiAXuLnzEKcMoAsMVvJqkMT98OanyxVhxXYF0t2Bj0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1126:: with SMTP id e6mr11242883ljo.123.1591626547873; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 07:29:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 07:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> From: Donald Wilde Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 07:29:07 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gbGs6gt4z4f3M X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=RkNlaoRu; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::242 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.97 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.041]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.11)[0.109]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.043]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::242:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 14:29:10 -0000 On 6/8/20, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > >> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:26 PM, Anatoli wrote: >> >> IMO >> >> * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, zfs), >> competes directly with Linux >> >> * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS > > The most secure=E2=80=A6 if you dismiss the fact that one of the develope= r (who > wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receiving > payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. > The OpenBSD crew made major contributions to the FOSS community in SSH and SSH components, but everybody incorporates them so they are now all at the same level. The main remaining difference is that OpenBSD doesn't turn on _anything_ unless you specifically ask it to. --=20 Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 15:44:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC49333938 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:44:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gcyL5qQtz3Z37 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:44:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 397424E65C; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:44:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Anatoli Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:44:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gcyL5qQtz3Z37 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.39 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.908]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.39)[-0.393]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.186]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 15:44:59 -0000 On 2020-06-08 09:25, Anatoli wrote: >> The most secure… if you dismiss the fact that one of the developer (who wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receiving payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. > > Rumors + FUD or do you have any proof? > When I heard that I checked, and receipt of payments was confirmed by developer himself. That is my recollection, I am merely human whose memory can not be perfect, check that on your own. This even if confirmed as a fact, does not mean he left back doors or weak spots in code. The rest is for everyone: to do one's own home work: 1. who don't care just dismiss what is said 2. Who do care to verify if receipt of payments is the fact, just verify on your own (I never think of myself to be considered the source of absolute truth. Merely as a help to point into direction where who is interested may find something helpful) If one verifies the fact of payment(s), the decide for yourself: A. Audit the code (I for one realize I will not be able to find fishy spots in that sophisticated code, so this can not be my choice) B. Accept that it is likely that good enough programmers did audit code, hence there are no weak (or worse) spots in it C. Accept that what top programmer wrote is not that easy to audit, and just shy away from what may (just merely may) be not quite kosher. If you care, of course. And again, do your own thinking, this may, just merely may help someone. Valeri > On 8/6/20 10:26, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:26 PM, Anatoli wrote: >>> >>> IMO >>> >>> * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, zfs), >>> competes directly with Linux >>> >>> * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS >> >> The most secure… if you dismiss the fact that one of the developer (who wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receiving payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. >> >> Valeri >> >>> and a really >>> good desktop, but its absence of server-class performance is its >>> weakest side + no zfs (just ffs2) and limited virtualization (no SMP) >>> so not suitable for any serious server load where absolute security is >>> not a must). The king in its niche (paranoid security) >>> >>> * NetBSD: toasters & freezers (runs on anything, otherwise not sure >>> what's the point :), competes with FreeBSD and Linux (and Linux now >>> supports more archs/platforms than Net). IMO no clear vision and thus >>> attracts too little resources both human and economic. IMO midterm not >>> much hope for survival, same as DFly and smaller BSDs. >>> >>> I believe that OS development is an economy of scale (doing things more >>> efficiently or having other advantaged with increasing size) with a >>> tendency for a monopoly in the same niche. >>> >>> There are some features that the larger players establish as a >>> commodity, but that are very time-intensive and complex to develop (e.g. >>> virtualization, wifi ac and now ax). So what Linux implemented more than >>> a decade ago, the BSDs are just catching up now. >>> >>> Linux world had 2 "obstacles" to its almost flawless growth recently >>> (systemd and a ZFS alternative). Now that the things have almost settled >>> up, if they don't commit any more serious errors I don't see how the >>> BSDs (except OpenBSD as it's not a direct competitor) could compete with >>> it in the long term. >>> >>> Now with ZoL/OpenZFS the long-term future even for FreeBSD is not that >>> clear (and the recent iX decisions [1] [2] are a clear sign). >>> >>> [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/truenas-isnt-abandoning-bsd-but-it-is-adopting-linux/ >>> [2] https://www.truenas.com/TrueOS-Discontinuation/ >>> >>> >>> On 7/6/20 22:35, Wesley wrote: >>>> greetings, >>>> >>>> There were freebsd and netbsd (maybe others?) in BSD world. >>>> What points did they focus by design? >>>> what are their use scenes then? >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>> _______________________________________________ >>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 15:46:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EC4333D9E for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:46:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gd0C0tgNz3Zkb for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:46:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ABFB54E669; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:46:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: dwilde1@gmail.com Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <637eed20-1326-dabf-ac9d-fac12a9dbaa5@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:46:34 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gd0C0tgNz3Zkb X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.92 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.71)[-0.709]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.32)[-0.316]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.00)[0.004]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 15:46:35 -0000 On 2020-06-08 09:29, Donald Wilde wrote: > On 6/8/20, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:26 PM, Anatoli wrote: >>> >>> IMO >>> >>> * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, zfs), >>> competes directly with Linux >>> >>> * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS >> >> The most secure… if you dismiss the fact that one of the developer (who >> wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receiving >> payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. >> > The OpenBSD crew made major contributions to the FOSS community in SSH > and SSH components, but everybody incorporates them so they are now > all at the same level. This is absolute truth for me and I appreciate that fact since forever. Valeri > > The main remaining difference is that OpenBSD doesn't turn on > _anything_ unless you specifically ask it to. > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 16:01:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2586334119 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:01:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gdKy6b7fz3bxw for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:01:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 425194E639 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:01:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <637eed20-1326-dabf-ac9d-fac12a9dbaa5@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <70c87d1a-a5d1-60ed-ef75-3a363bfd4c9e@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 11:01:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <637eed20-1326-dabf-ac9d-fac12a9dbaa5@kicp.uchicago.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gdKy6b7fz3bxw X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.46 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.29)[0.289]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.15)[0.153]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.92)[0.919]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 16:02:00 -0000 On 2020-06-08 10:46, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 2020-06-08 09:29, Donald Wilde wrote: >> On 6/8/20, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:26 PM, Anatoli wrote: >>>> >>>> IMO >>>> >>>> * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, zfs), >>>>   competes directly with Linux >>>> >>>> * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS >>> >>> The most secure… if you dismiss the fact that one of the developer (who >>> wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receiving >>> payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. >>> >> The OpenBSD crew made major contributions to the FOSS community in SSH >> and SSH components, but everybody incorporates them so they are now >> all at the same level. > > This is absolute truth for me and I appreciate that fact since forever. Not only it is absolute truth, but I too was considering OpenBSD the most secure operating system out there. Till the moment I've learned that [network stack, or was it IPsec?] programmer was receiving payments from one of 3 letter agencies some decade before it became known by everybody. Does not mean any code he wrote for OpenBSD was affected, being top programmer, he likely was doing unrelated stuff for them, but realizing that to audit the code written by top programmer is virtually impossible, I decided for myself to just shy away from OpenBSD. But everybody can arrive at their educated decisions on their own. Still with utmost respect to OpenBSD for openSSH and general ultimate security focused approach, Valeri > > Valeri > >> >> The main remaining difference is that OpenBSD doesn't turn on >> _anything_ unless you specifically ask it to. >> > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 16:30:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A107335240 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:30:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x244.google.com (mail-lj1-x244.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::244]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gdyH2tWhz3yCY for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 16:29:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x244.google.com with SMTP id 9so21291175ljc.8 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 09:29:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IHVByivEISEexE0MZWsdM1gq0x20IXXZObVC7i2YdCc=; b=OBI1j58tg4fSOhazyP/iU5NcccDLBMobF1ZU2+OmH6gZupLZyDrFp2vAnRV3OXr0vY 9PYqZMvwEuhjZfJhOyDONoYO9k62fkeF/rBXvTYKNAfO09w/w6XptfaWg1cJq8tkrktg nQLD/pDTJzGVP+V2vFLa3tXOHQTjgnSc09MMtjdLy+gCaI0zHah7h3CHsWmdWIpyNLt0 K2BFhdYyGMp4BNti/tisjBH+7UHsBy3oLh6uIYA9nrGQvMhV3sovHTT+aMWfJSHxbtby Hln2fYXlxAUeyXpOVbJrLf8F2w6+OOpzlxd8AGVhNGXvuvhoFazM1LmLjYEoL7neUo+m dfEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IHVByivEISEexE0MZWsdM1gq0x20IXXZObVC7i2YdCc=; b=fdAXpbjDoTaWnaFAciA+5wyYLffpIy9gGs0RAD2l/NC5/gXukyrmpl9vVxNPmS3eeC 5pYk2h2419uplrkzAemHZRxyjkjnk6gpDPDSLWcM9n4qHGRMta66kBxGKm0Yx19d0YyJ Lkns2jt7GkU49W/OL7q9v46l4UVpLBMvJVt+q44FDjfS2ymwD5igg+L4c+xVUSYZamKV qIgkqOKN9R2vN4VUOEUmooQ4K3CAZdYi7YwBhn/3DqzRcU4Ibicu1qOg8/IVS+sahy0p o74TW7q+x34PoIctpkv252YtKvvZ/AQuo1bVFeTz6VfiA22lfdHswWWpCeoNj/ayeZy9 QpTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Qx8Q7Scz9wAl7kmm9xkzV3HMp6QJvI211N2clFGQE2EHFc84L xWAceaGOWSurqZyS8j861G0DH7MPPyrRdk9YN98= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxxUQUbywd/F1T85zjtats+hzIHJaaDIA9apZ78m3rXvLHWKjgBpQbgAsEqZGr9Gssmbaso64UFeqOmAszSDw4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8255:: with SMTP id j21mr11422616ljh.85.1591633797477; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 09:29:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <70c87d1a-a5d1-60ed-ef75-3a363bfd4c9e@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <637eed20-1326-dabf-ac9d-fac12a9dbaa5@kicp.uchicago.edu> <70c87d1a-a5d1-60ed-ef75-3a363bfd4c9e@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Donald Wilde Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:29:56 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gdyH2tWhz3yCY X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=OBI1j58t; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::244 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.46 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.381]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.020]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.05)[-1.055]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::244:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 16:30:00 -0000 On 6/8/20, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 2020-06-08 10:46, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> >> >> On 2020-06-08 09:29, Donald Wilde wrote: >>> On 6/8/20, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:26 PM, Anatoli wrote: >>>>> >>>>> IMO >>>>> >>>>> * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, zfs), >>>>> competes directly with Linux >>>>> >>>>> * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS >>>> >>>> The most secure=E2=80=A6 if you dismiss the fact that one of the devel= oper (who >>>> wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receivi= ng >>>> payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. >>>> >>> The OpenBSD crew made major contributions to the FOSS community in SSH >>> and SSH components, but everybody incorporates them so they are now >>> all at the same level. >> >> This is absolute truth for me and I appreciate that fact since forever. > > Not only it is absolute truth, but I too was considering OpenBSD the > most secure operating system out there. Till the moment I've learned > that [network stack, or was it IPsec?] programmer was receiving payments > from one of 3 letter agencies some decade before it became known by > everybody. Does not mean any code he wrote for OpenBSD was affected, > being top programmer, he likely was doing unrelated stuff for them, but > realizing that to audit the code written by top programmer is virtually > impossible, I decided for myself to just shy away from OpenBSD. But > everybody can arrive at their educated decisions on their own. > > Still with utmost respect to OpenBSD for openSSH and general ultimate > security focused approach, > I think the fact that the other two root projects (NetBSD and FreeBSD) have included that code says it has all been audited at the highest level by people of equal capability. --=20 Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 19:36:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FFAC3391A3 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 19:36:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gk504HbCz4MGN for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 19:36:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id w9so15718861qtv.3 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 12:36:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=ZQmp2V4ATx/u1Zrxn+KtIwqETWxnliU97qczRx/ufyk=; b=OBAMXNVA8B+weVCXtjulRLcjw/wzSTC10OvldEBBRlQtD+9AL4u6zjDhY07SxZkDJK TafZL3zZ1vw/K4Wf60SvA/5qwsqNy1gEb8OXIYa+hz15ixV0kKk4xyEgp0cL1cQSIvUa lby8RZPh36odJE8WbXMTEgOTdRyRN73YcN4LM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=ZQmp2V4ATx/u1Zrxn+KtIwqETWxnliU97qczRx/ufyk=; b=PT3e/2/TgcBsItH4I8dU6bSH3TufL10I3qv368RyBllsTViHUULnm6/ETh8jj02Sk9 FgRNG9WzsYB7LLLLZMOOWR7w5EK6SoVgAe3kwIEcimDpoW59xcDjXhHwV2o0H8hA4A6t SaJpqB9d2eKfLAuqAwFQkutkwu7ccpUMgQMjTT/IGMflYGzqKS18vksbI2z37AA259Yx e5SQQOAUuBDplVlCDtnLr4bpta5f340osZsdjpGwKhA/Shs7U8C9fUfwx/9c/kB1Or6f fblYE+jjNt/joI9BUIH+PeZb3yv5UAuSHyMbyKvAWPuMfkJulHuDvPUm6eMv+zHDSeiq tHCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532GXAfqDfAuPfRtMZmIVBciq3o+9RtQq3ScbDfKex5zALfRnCO6 sYiBacWU21NGeX5sikxaKr8GqejjR6Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxyzdekg7i6G3OZmpFpx2eq9D6qpwnaVRPTHq/nSkhgSOdaBZHQRlF0oRUMKZaIa29X35EEDQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a814:: with SMTP id r20mr24692665qke.475.1591644461332; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 12:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s124sm6044270qke.40.2020.06.08.12.27.39 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 08 Jun 2020 12:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49gjvG4Q68z1ffb for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 15:27:24 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Optane Memory Message-ID: <20200608152724.00002f13@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/j1QtM8/11yi4rZyk7k.Q=v="; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gk504HbCz4MGN X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=OBAMXNVA; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.01 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.945]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.54)[0.541]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:36:06 -0000 --Sig_/j1QtM8/11yi4rZyk7k.Q=v= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am seriously thinking about purchasing another PC to play around with. My question is does FreeBSD support Intel's Optane Memory? It seems like it needs an Intel driver to work, or at least it does on a Window's machine. I have only been looking into the potential speed increases and not all of the other technical details. I already purchased one PC recently that FreeBSD 12.x will not work on, , and I don't want to be bit in the ass a second time. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/j1QtM8/11yi4rZyk7k.Q=v= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7ekSIACgkQOHMGOIfe xWT2/AgAsDR78p/fTLaR9O4zK0zdZYxtsPDBAtx98qdhlNW7sVSYFfJoe5Grc6Ds nASG/7nxHLRGmzKAkPzRDI5nGg/3h1wrqENfvGy2+ac8mdM2vEoLlUVAoX3Uy8yC q4UKSFHLvgew94dBqjAgoVGxhBW+fMWvuULqfvzeuqnmDPxhBhIFZ+78YIniJeh9 w3x+kSxf6JzLgLgZbMKgzJYHxFjPMwN0Sdgy2JxvSPMp3Qj9tDjgCOI0iOXh5PIV 5QJzomdn28UzlUju7paCw5qjcULuE2vCJ2ldrcb7K6mffP212ocN7c8TIyEAoEEO Fc5FHS05w+WomK1WCADjGI0ZFhV2MA== =JBac -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/j1QtM8/11yi4rZyk7k.Q=v=-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 8 23:34:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E7D33E241 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 23:34:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gqMv5tzTz3bh1 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 23:34:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id c12so19099379qkk.13 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 16:34:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5usOlHcM0UPHc0SrVYolktqKcdQv5cWSAXyqI06XxeM=; b=dNqUEq3r4qjo5zSC0TH2suSxWC3Qr/kHCvl1O5Hz6gI+HJCtdkV6QPfl2kfXUaDmxC fSFaXMkZS44i/tH4rfMSbx/vE0IT/mD9Fqu2OpWb6ORTNmweneEr8/qYCTO9e0reZWye IlEptAraCZ9TQSjDQSx+rkMa+XMLINVWEwhO2GRM6bM7vPxSq/K9sWiZm//DhNyIYkMF Qz189T2NkgPsFr/uxJiZuVQmAVwfUDgGE3TeGEtVrbQ+XXESsQLjjcejla9VVAzz5g5G hN4xZ2L/LerWlhNxvmDMLB1Qb/SJtc0Jyq9OkuXQ5YCwQQJWqTFoKTczEr/aNthPn9vv L2yw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5usOlHcM0UPHc0SrVYolktqKcdQv5cWSAXyqI06XxeM=; b=RNefh09g3z5LP3AecQeqq/ZAN+1k0HOx3Nhp5xzHGFzCTX/aCz/FWk+25za1l0h0mE mzqiq1l6FcOgaYkBMHIsRLqvS8Eql6lYObSBdU1rqioqy3UlmsYS7dI9P5MzFL/cDqKi 67tg9yJGdqJshuYIRbTITiBbxJerSXT5ye3FD+NtGrFUdANA7jEZrXp04ce/+oKajEd5 9bV1XhA0mTshOZCOahMOkHnWqcHoKz8nT/h8znZkPmxITWtBuV9csuvkB+C5Z1tamHHn GrKmkQ2WBm13KPYaA2S+ChgFxTpZ0pSDJqC4mfvScbl94l5rhrSobOLiSq7JYOpJLIHt Qy2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wLYHu6IJwjuLgj3G7TfIpVIIb2L5EcnI5AoT5gradlPvtK7YP M4GHxlorIGgrdEO4+iVBpH4O0Tis X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz16qcSrZyEEF27TtqzIhyQ2Je4dgLmk6D355ha9WK5MeORYf6+zPGkuEjAIzeglWs6LwMwKA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a3ce:: with SMTP id m197mr25173209qke.493.1591659258785; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 16:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.8] (cpe-65-25-53-210.neo.res.rr.com. [65.25.53.210]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id c58sm10354605qtd.27.2020.06.08.16.34.17 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Jun 2020 16:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5EDECAF9.3080406@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:34:17 -0400 From: Ernie Luzar User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: determining if host has a dynamic or static ip address Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gqMv5tzTz3bh1 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=dNqUEq3r; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luzar722@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luzar722@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.46 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[65.25.53.210:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.54)[0.537]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b:from]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 23:34:21 -0000 I am asking if anyone knows of a way to determine what type of public ip address the host has been ISP assigned by coding a csh script? Is it even possible? Thanks for any help you can provide. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 00:16:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B3B33EDCF for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 00:16:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49grJh0YpXz3gbl for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 00:16:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id k26so1321683wmi.4 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 17:16:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=V1Cd5355QaVKt3xoXMUGvXiU7FEDJxFqCjd5EcdA+CQ=; b=QBMryneQO2asNzW99AsqiSQv5O0bF/Ge50io5XIvmTETbRzs1xiIFBPJIT6swiGWYr aUDJWNEPNHeeYGvOxjfp6JEYzvepGsZEe4LdMSYFF7axlaJ/QqXyVJKXyo236cXPU4pI CjkgzPDCEj+g4+RDR1w7gpokS3NRy7j6mlgHTwy8eP+QpZSJgFrf4qUkDxk/hD1Rdqml 8Wbdzm7X2MbDcv7wuFd8NXstpTgVVpEyNq9EulZGOcuXqg7I/qx2H9DsdTPnhit6IL1p q9dy1//doNfmtexjJ6GOUCqyOoU0MtAZChcLYxdAscdzqoJaaM37hFr8aM1AgSFDzW2S BB0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532SPSvS3TCWNf+Z3quLYVJis45WnVAiZYdTMIheUWxxjdz9EFgm 81XbJXVeex2fj6QP60/haOcNdkoH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyZ9lhWiB8LftHeVXPvzjOD8aeMaMjC8vKRXzYcD+ww2Gn0XCeclIXqchWmQ5CTryAsZ0kedg== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c041:: with SMTP id u1mr1246126wmc.56.1591661792979; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 17:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([2.222.27.18]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c206sm1142287wmf.36.2020.06.08.17.16.30 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 08 Jun 2020 17:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 01:16:29 +0100 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: determining if host has a dynamic or static ip address Message-ID: <20200609011629.2dcd3bcf@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <5EDECAF9.3080406@gmail.com> References: <5EDECAF9.3080406@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49grJh0YpXz3gbl X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.49 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[googlemail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[2.222.27.18:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.924]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[googlemail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[googlemail.com,quarantine]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::330:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.574]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[googlemail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 00:16:37 -0000 On Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:34:17 -0400 Ernie Luzar wrote: > I am asking if anyone knows of a way to determine what type of public > ip address the host has been ISP assigned Not exactly, there are some DNS blocklists for dynamic address. You can look for key words in the rDNS like static, dynamic, pool etc. There are some know patterns for major ISPs. There's no fully reliable method. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 01:21:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BDA3410B6 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 01:21:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gslf4QYNz46mH for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 01:21:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.25.204]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MDhQt-1jpr5Q2Ov9-00AoiG; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:21:31 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 03:21:31 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ernie Luzar Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: determining if host has a dynamic or static ip address Message-Id: <20200609032131.486b48a6.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <5EDECAF9.3080406@gmail.com> References: <5EDECAF9.3080406@gmail.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1F7fMgnI+6BltXIb3/N2m3lA3W088DqyzvkcmoojAgkWtUt5UqL MiRU5rYVIem9SZ6o97xOrlQQYOxf+jGRvU1kfQwcjzietaY3Spg/5cNWc8AuCj1U+FZBBFE iyrMhDo2VVodD8NkkmBL0H+eSIyHGEnUN9x+x7UkNxvbmzKpEelY8fGqMhImMzzdaxYWMql PVtgKG/Mhx92qPqavaWiQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:xiusY1Vkq3Q=:YE/BjwfT8xZPfSjOL/mn28 MF4FvafsJ2zbAIesqjmVpABV0TNfh73WJ8zJMGAcl5HhT403x5TleFEQAZWvxKa/nQKwmECxV l13+lyACo2zxZvkOn6DVaH6boSNQcJ6vHkWNZpmlfPBwwbauHriz6T7xDSJcLqyk8l/UxS9Vc WeDRnOSFrCFgtHyPUB6Ci7tiITz5NeaRM59TZLi0lqVhztr2eqevU8MU7CkrbGLbRy3WYtqWe xNVoNFYo3x4CX6aL78jzMZMQXD8BoIH3ooOJOGTafKIuOTH0scLNl59mfATA2Gum+qcg+Njnx kmrQdCBC4Vns85RURtK5cDttwWh53hYS81oDAYhaY0nHgep+4vF4o+c2tNTGzVsFCN4DuY/++ rsgUMWTTptYJp5i49Y7m92hUpHlz4DFPMLQEV2VrHFEm9ckl6sWJ0NOBzYIuTbuk6/h/tLimD x6et6p5ooHgBYK2Ng24QxFi5MCUIWBO0c13bzYd/lzyG1XqsUneglrIaPws+LiXIIMda/hpOZ 3uB9+9SebYMSYTgXMRL3c7hqaQzufsMvv1eQB12i9gUoyp11hzL21YGkM9siKr2RvyYSCXFbI DTR3byadUvCDHVaSAD6Ptf1vimoQdE1MrVbUuDqeisWcbxigW2K1pMw1Pvne1M28FSB0Ps7Ju IvwhvDRpHvL0t2hcxZDHOebhdRSEYybtvGVRpqkzDoxLFLkjEpD0TLrjIyMedun/oIeRZVxWY H+giqTeRrn5VN8FtROOwiIPCrDnuc+sOJfX0rnLS0192WQSaIxgouk5HMIastUybDZcGSLlNf +t1nOE7rtPUk6kaVkcy4ju4aLD392dvJ1QiD4zUsgjo6jk/fbSR3FlZc8WWI0YrWhdp3JLC X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gslf4QYNz46mH X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.77 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.40)[-0.398]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.25.204:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.19)[0.186]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.58)[0.582]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 01:21:36 -0000 On Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:34:17 -0400, Ernie Luzar wrote: > I am asking if anyone knows of a way to determine what type of public ip > address the host has been ISP assigned [...] That's not exactly easy to tell. You can examine the hostname associated to the IP, and maybe it contains something like "pool" or "dynamic" - in that case, it's usually a dynamic IP from a specific range. There are ranges allocated by the ISPs that they use as a pool for customers' addresses assigned via DHCP (or a different means), for example. You can check if the IP is in such a range. Again, it's up to the ISP how they use such a range, as they could use a subset for addresses that they actually use as static IPs. The "rinse & repeat" method is also not reliable: You could disconnect and reconnect to your ISP, and if you get a different IP each time, it's probably dynamic. If not, it can still be assigned dynamically, so no way to be sure. Some ISPs sometimes "bind" the dynamic IP to the MAC address of the endpoint (and some even use the MAC address as the authentication factor for the customer). More information here: https://whatismyipaddress.com/dynamic-static > [...] by coding a csh script? Why should anyone do this in _C_ shell?! Tom Christiansen: "sh Programming Considered Harmful", 1996 http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/csh https://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/misc/csh.html I know what I'm talking about, I exactly wrote (and still use) one, in numbers: 1, C shell script. ;-) > Is it even possible? Depends. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 02:00:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C980343433 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:00:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from mout3.freenet.de (mout3.freenet.de [IPv6:2001:748:100:40::2:5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.freenet.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gtc51jWWz4CCY for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:00:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from [195.4.92.165] (helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mout3.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiTYX-0007zd-V2 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 04:00:01 +0200 Received: from [::1] (port=42506 helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiTYX-0006uu-U1 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 04:00:01 +0200 Received: from sub3.freenet.de ([195.4.92.122]:33894) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiTVg-0006mZ-MF for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:57:04 +0200 Received: from [113.106.251.87] (port=60917 helo=[172.20.59.136]) by sub3.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305:256) (port 587) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiTVg-0005Cq-Dl for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:57:04 +0200 Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> From: Wesley Message-ID: <7dd4776b-4326-fa9c-cd2f-2b59ca4e8e50@freenetMail.de> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:56:59 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originated-At: 113.106.251.87!60917 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gtc51jWWz4CCY X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley@freenetMail.de has no SPF policy when checking 2001:748:100:40::2:5) smtp.mailfrom=wesley@freenetMail.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.65 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.61)[0.607]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freenetMail.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.43)[0.427]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.71)[0.713]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2001:748:100:40::2:5:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5430, ipnet:2001:748::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:00:06 -0000 May I ask a question, is it possible for freeBSD community to develop a nice GUI like Mac OSX? current opensource desktop like KDE is not behaving as well as OSX in my opinion. Thanks. Valeri Galtsev wrote: > MacOS departs farther and farther away from BSD… so some time ago I scratched MacOS from my list of “UNIXes”. Administering server on MacOS became unbearable for me. I still tell all Mac laptop owners: the beauty of MacOS is that you have nice GUI, and UNIX under the hood. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 02:05:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E996A3439BA for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:05:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@radel.com) Received: from radel.com (fly.radel.com [70.184.242.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.radel.com", Issuer "GoGetSSL RSA DV CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gtkN0r3Gz4DCk for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:05:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jon@radel.com) X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.19.2 (ClamAV engine v0.99.2) X-ExtFilter: Niversoft's DomainKeys Helper DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; d=radel.com; s=20170108.radel; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=R2FAtll/7yQ4DZKsDzwclt0Su3NeQyBiU0RN7quCmwbftN9cOIKpwMCZzk02gFX1Ho JH858B5dfMnQ3qnGSCRCTQ3G4Zb+w1Lfan/UGX1tKjip+TSiweHtVVlT1rQs2BE11OTI 3V3tCPDR7HZdw5FBd/DBaMmLk8qSwD9Vy7zgZ/Jka3GP/JnXq2UlPCbPahljkD++1Wkh Na4EUK9H329mWzOezXsMikRIyaoHyD0kWcSHD76vQag7kJ5WPGTLw8CvNmXU/uhUJoGj 9zluE5Q65acD1cNIOMlAkWhIx4p3Su1fKUa7WumFwUtY5R/Wdxb7D21R4y5GykZ8979V FVqw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=radel.com; s=20170108.radel; t=1591668325; x=1592273125; q=dns/txt; h=Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date: User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; bh=MbQ9N7v2MeM MuvPErIWSIVeOfVWrJ0ioorHnKLRUShI=; b=aNpvxW+CPdUKpPOBoxAKR+YJZF2 xKrtYNjFuJCKTNO+gxBY6AJmN1Ccw7lE0o+CKq4P1L52ZuY+uIbnzymbjpIsZQsy a4hoivemItbvL30lV5CnnSHeI56NmJdNLnx9TjOH/pUf6triZqpfHjZUuWlasa9b 28fz4bcbgmYH2XCOIWnkAo4VjpceE0WpNnC5PFqtOrQEZLa/5Ohcak0ebUmYKqqs gFwYYlw0nvQXawZ7qN/XSXHRpFOATIjD4SnY6q3gstgSDCFUU8yttAxSwA+jYy4S fARsx/l0gjMPUw+NI2SOyVRgF2gZr90ayuyT+FJbAACBhmk9dwbMJN4eJHQ== Received: from [2001:470:880a:4389:9c8a:efef:651:de7e] (account jon@radel.com HELO haralson.local) by radel.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.14 _community_) with ESMTPSA id 2171150 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:05:25 +0000 Subject: Re: determining if host has a dynamic or static ip address To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <5EDECAF9.3080406@gmail.com> <20200609032131.486b48a6.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Jon Radel Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 22:05:24 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200609032131.486b48a6.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms080909000606070605090200" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gtkN0r3Gz4DCk X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=radel.com header.s=20170108.radel header.b=aNpvxW+C; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=radel.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jon@radel.com designates 70.184.242.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jon@radel.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.71 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[radel.com:s=20170108.radel]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:70.184.242.160/28]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[radel.com]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.966]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.972]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.33)[0.326]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[radel.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[radel.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22773, ipnet:70.184.240.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:05:33 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080909000606070605090200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 6/8/20 21:21, Polytropon wrote: > Tom Christiansen: "sh Programming Considered Harmful", 1996 > That would be "Csh Programming Considered Harmful," which makes the whole discussion make a bit more sense. --=20 --Jon Radel jon@radel.com --------------ms080909000606070605090200 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC C9owggXmMIIDzqADAgECAhBqm+E4O/8ra58B1dm4p1JWMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBDAUAMIGFMQsw CQYDVQQGEwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVzdGVyMRAwDgYDVQQHEwdTYWxm b3JkMRowGAYDVQQKExFDT01PRE8gQ0EgTGltaXRlZDErMCkGA1UEAxMiQ09NT0RPIFJTQSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTAeFw0xMzAxMTAwMDAwMDBaFw0yODAxMDkyMzU5NTla MIGXMQswCQYDVQQGEwJHQjEbMBkGA1UECBMSR3JlYXRlciBNYW5jaGVzdGVyMRAwDgYDVQQH EwdTYWxmb3JkMRowGAYDVQQKExFDT01PRE8gQ0EgTGltaXRlZDE9MDsGA1UEAxM0Q09NT0RP IFJTQSBDbGllbnQgQXV0aGVudGljYXRpb24gYW5kIFNlY3VyZSBFbWFpbCBDQTCCASIwDQYJ KoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAL6znlesKHZ1QBbHOAOY08YYdiFQ8yV5C0y1oNF9 Olg+nKcxLqf2NHbZhGra0D00SOTq9bus3/mxgUsg/Wh/eXQ0pnp8tZ8XZWAnlyKMpjL+qUBy RjXCA6RQyDMqVaVUkbIr5SU0RDX/kSsKwer3H1pT/HUrBN0X8sKtPTdGX8XAWt/VdMLBrZBl gvnkCos+KQWWCo63OTTqRvaq8aWccm+KOMjTcE6s2mj6RkalweyDI7X+7U5lNo6jzC8RTXtV V4/Vwdax720YpMPJQaDaElmOupyTf1Qib+cpukNJnQmwygjD8m046DQkLnpXNCAGjuJy1F5N ATksUsbfJAr7FLUCAwEAAaOCATwwggE4MB8GA1UdIwQYMBaAFLuvfgI9+qbxPISOre44mOzZ MjLUMB0GA1UdDgQWBBSCr2yM+MX+lmF86B89K3FIXsSLwDAOBgNVHQ8BAf8EBAMCAYYwEgYD VR0TAQH/BAgwBgEB/wIBADARBgNVHSAECjAIMAYGBFUdIAAwTAYDVR0fBEUwQzBBoD+gPYY7 aHR0cDovL2NybC5jb21vZG9jYS5jb20vQ09NT0RPUlNBQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbkF1dGhvcml0 eS5jcmwwcQYIKwYBBQUHAQEEZTBjMDsGCCsGAQUFBzAChi9odHRwOi8vY3J0LmNvbW9kb2Nh LmNvbS9DT01PRE9SU0FBZGRUcnVzdENBLmNydDAkBggrBgEFBQcwAYYYaHR0cDovL29jc3Au Y29tb2RvY2EuY29tMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBDAUAA4ICAQB4XLKBKDRPPO5fVs6fl1bsj6JrF/bz 9kkIBtTYLzXN30D+03Hj6OxCDBEaIeNmsBhrJmuubvyE7HtoSmR809AgcYboW+rcTNZ/8u/H v+GTrNI/AhqX2/kiQNxmgUPt/eJPs92Qclj0HnVyy9TnSvGkSDU7I5Px+TbO+88G4zipA2ps ZaWeEykgzClZlPz1FjTCkk77ZXp5cQYYexE6zeeN4/0OqqoAloFrjAF4o50YJafX8mnahjp3 I2Y2mkjhk0xQfhNqbzlLWPoT3m7j7U26u7zg6swjOq8hITYc3/np5tM5aVyu6t99p17bTbY7 +1RTWBviN9YJzK8HxzObXYWBf/L+VGOYNsQDTxAk0Hbvb1j6KjUhg7fO294F29QIhhmiNOr8 4JHoy+fNLpfvYc/Q9EtFOI5ISYgOxLk3nD/whbUe9rmEQXLp8MB933Ij474gwwCPUpwv9mj2 PMnXoc7mbrS22XUSeTwxCTP9bcmUdp4jmIoWfhQm7X9w/Zgddg+JZ/YnIHOwsGsaTUgj7fIv xqith7DoJC91WJ8Lce3CVJqb1XWeKIJ84F7YLXZN0oa7TktYgDdmQVxYkZo1c5noaDKH9Oq9 cbm/vOYRUM1cWcef20Wkyk5S/GFyyPJwG0fR1nRas3DqAf4cXxMiEKcff7PNa4M3RGTqH0pW R8p6EjCCBewwggTUoAMCAQICEHQDryTAYaEsgncP8aGW6o4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwgZcx CzAJBgNVBAYTAkdCMRswGQYDVQQIExJHcmVhdGVyIE1hbmNoZXN0ZXIxEDAOBgNVBAcTB1Nh bGZvcmQxGjAYBgNVBAoTEUNPTU9ETyBDQSBMaW1pdGVkMT0wOwYDVQQDEzRDT01PRE8gUlNB IENsaWVudCBBdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgU2VjdXJlIEVtYWlsIENBMB4XDTE4MDMwNDAw MDAwMFoXDTIxMDMwMzIzNTk1OVowgfoxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMQ4wDAYDVQQREwUyMjE1MDEL MAkGA1UECBMCVkExFDASBgNVBAcTC1NwcmluZ2ZpZWxkMRowGAYDVQQJExE2OTE3IFJpZGdl d2F5IERyLjEVMBMGA1UEChMMSm9uIFQuIFJhZGVsMTIwMAYDVQQLEylJc3N1ZWQgdGhyb3Vn aCBKb24gVC4gUmFkZWwgRS1QS0kgTWFuYWdlcjEfMB0GA1UECxMWQ29ycG9yYXRlIFNlY3Vy ZSBFbWFpbDESMBAGA1UEAxMJSm9uIFJhZGVsMRwwGgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg1qb25AcmFkZWwu Y29tMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtK/dFQxMTnVPcP1TI09m30v8 rSG/VWSFWfFvu/2jzPkNL+ivx6A4LNUbqw4CS73GIKcbp8IrpNQz2oQV6mTv+KVJzJMf8GjA y8EzZjhc2tAXL+Q57omCTuAc6cw2KDYFL0aNWX4CEe/LqfoBDKpJF7HCrwwus55+tTEkAY8j tRkQRMHf47YQVJjD/4pdC/h+7jjI0oSgh1npT7Q3K47g6IkVzjhiH8LCsCSVYaLzRZfgcl3s 0GLE858PV/84l5d/hUVD0u9J2EdKpf+hnFqZnA3qw9R0xFQIE6yOkUvhALw1zxXaiGj0047a gBE2Bhv2UIlj6Q0zPa5kRYDy9vBI6QIDAQABo4IBzTCCAckwHwYDVR0jBBgwFoAUgq9sjPjF /pZhfOgfPStxSF7Ei8AwHQYDVR0OBBYEFHS/Ewun4pYC9Lla5kkmj4zo7tKcMA4GA1UdDwEB /wQEAwIFoDAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwMEBggrBgEFBQcDAjBG BgNVHSAEPzA9MDsGDCsGAQQBsjEBAgEDBTArMCkGCCsGAQUFBwIBFh1odHRwczovL3NlY3Vy ZS5jb21vZG8ubmV0L0NQUzBaBgNVHR8EUzBRME+gTaBLhklodHRwOi8vY3JsLmNvbW9kb2Nh LmNvbS9DT01PRE9SU0FDbGllbnRBdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbmFuZFNlY3VyZUVtYWlsQ0EuY3Js MIGLBggrBgEFBQcBAQR/MH0wVQYIKwYBBQUHMAKGSWh0dHA6Ly9jcnQuY29tb2RvY2EuY29t L0NPTU9ET1JTQUNsaWVudEF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uYW5kU2VjdXJlRW1haWxDQS5jcnQwJAYI KwYBBQUHMAGGGGh0dHA6Ly9vY3NwLmNvbW9kb2NhLmNvbTAYBgNVHREEETAPgQ1qb25AcmFk ZWwuY29tMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAA4IBAQBUNLBptNFZRBkOUPOCI9TPM6QauLK6jojtbxZO XWvZfKvq8ukWUZTPtaDS5UjsMhlxLf/Crv8HkiVXSzC36cVQyjNjl1u+u/Sbl/6q/TfQk+aK 5jzDd4onQVzlfE33ymtZJgh+4dMPWKuXjRS0OyMLzv3mYCvFO83l1G9rBiaCEfFJHKgVGY1z 3ZU/gsPCQ2a0xf3908lwl5H3SPB3ZzLWDf41o5zV70HXfsgP862KzxU9t46XBGZ8TRl/5fl+ Xj2KQdpyWlNZUS00/UHznxeFO5+bkNaOg24BjwfBOWi0D47CE+6BRWvtrmgciWxefUuYeeIy Qr58KK8DlBCkVF06MYIENTCCBDECAQEwgawwgZcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkdCMRswGQYDVQQIExJH cmVhdGVyIE1hbmNoZXN0ZXIxEDAOBgNVBAcTB1NhbGZvcmQxGjAYBgNVBAoTEUNPTU9ETyBD QSBMaW1pdGVkMT0wOwYDVQQDEzRDT01PRE8gUlNBIENsaWVudCBBdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBh bmQgU2VjdXJlIEVtYWlsIENBAhB0A68kwGGhLIJ3D/GhluqOMA0GCWCGSAFlAwQCAQUAoIIC WTAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcBMBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0yMDA2MDkwMjA1 MjRaMC8GCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEiBCCAAeTqtP94lHjoSVTQeVj1c9gzmguh64oY2yFyVKpmnDBs BgkqhkiG9w0BCQ8xXzBdMAsGCWCGSAFlAwQBKjALBglghkgBZQMEAQIwCgYIKoZIhvcNAwcw DgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgFAMAcGBSsOAwIHMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgEo MIG9BgkrBgEEAYI3EAQxga8wgawwgZcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkdCMRswGQYDVQQIExJHcmVhdGVy IE1hbmNoZXN0ZXIxEDAOBgNVBAcTB1NhbGZvcmQxGjAYBgNVBAoTEUNPTU9ETyBDQSBMaW1p dGVkMT0wOwYDVQQDEzRDT01PRE8gUlNBIENsaWVudCBBdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgU2Vj dXJlIEVtYWlsIENBAhB0A68kwGGhLIJ3D/GhluqOMIG/BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzGBr6CBrDCB lzELMAkGA1UEBhMCR0IxGzAZBgNVBAgTEkdyZWF0ZXIgTWFuY2hlc3RlcjEQMA4GA1UEBxMH U2FsZm9yZDEaMBgGA1UEChMRQ09NT0RPIENBIExpbWl0ZWQxPTA7BgNVBAMTNENPTU9ETyBS U0EgQ2xpZW50IEF1dGhlbnRpY2F0aW9uIGFuZCBTZWN1cmUgRW1haWwgQ0ECEHQDryTAYaEs gncP8aGW6o4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEAOSjWXvAnsc5OvtaHh1dAxDzvV3nZzdKm1UDK emvxOtEBezKgRCWtTIk6Ps+7piNzUHplf5aeWwt2A3u9qV0iZQGg3wSXfKX2eNwoeaUzHc0d Vc1NZzeoQ4DPHRMsx9s24gaTJfo+U8cMcosiYHJSad/5PZEqPmOy2qBmoqmHay35zlZMAcn2 ZKUSFdTBFk8ppeiZJ/TAwqdYz6S1m0IV5vJsi38dCcxcx7f7o5xElIYWmNK/eVSZYNE3fuvI PtdjTDGX41hGsfNc4H83PM/3NjJSthLsqDhAdiuiTdru3oCPglRjgcEAPngpeXLhMrqyb07d KDFXbO1Skx+6ooMtCQAAAAAAAA== --------------ms080909000606070605090200-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 02:21:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4335A344581 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:21:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gv4S2qzwz4G5r for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:21:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.225]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A80564E655; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 21:21:06 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <7dd4776b-4326-fa9c-cd2f-2b59ca4e8e50@freenetMail.de> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 21:21:05 -0500 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <7dd4776b-4326-fa9c-cd2f-2b59ca4e8e50@freenetMail.de> To: Wesley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gv4S2qzwz4G5r X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.16 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.225:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.04)[0.036]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.80)[-0.804]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.01)[0.011]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:21:13 -0000 > On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:56 PM, Wesley wrote: >=20 > May I ask a question, is it possible for freeBSD community to develop = a nice GUI like Mac OSX? current opensource desktop like KDE is not = behaving as well as OSX in my opinion. >=20 This nice GUI like MacOS=E2=80=99s is not necessarily nice in = everybody=E2=80=99s opinion. I for one would prefer Mate Desktop. There = are several different DEs (Desktop Environments) which I may not like as = I didn=E2=80=99t blend into iPad generation, but that may be considered = quite comparable to MacOS=E2=80=99s one. Still, compared to MS Widows = MacOS's is nicer (my subjective opinion), yet still there is one thing = about both of them: you can not choose =E2=80=9Cdock area=E2=80=9D on = left, on right (speaking about MS Windows), and you can not remove Apple = top bar (=E2=80=9Ctop is reserved for mighty Apple=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D). = So, Xwindow based DEs cover much wider spectrum of tastes IMHO.=20 But if there is something specific you are after, you can try to = describe it, and I bet with so many Experts on this list, you can hear = viable advise. Valeri > Thanks. >=20 > Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> MacOS departs farther and farther away from BSD=E2=80=A6 so some time = ago I scratched MacOS from my list of =E2=80=9CUNIXes=E2=80=9D. = Administering server on MacOS became unbearable for me. I still tell all = Mac laptop owners: the beauty of MacOS is that you have nice GUI, and = UNIX under the hood. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 02:29:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B01C3445C4 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:29:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@ozzmosis.com) Received: from relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (relay7-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gvGG4Kjxz4Gwf for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:29:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@ozzmosis.com) X-Originating-IP: 167.179.139.56 Received: from blizzard.ozzmosis.com (167-179-139-56.a7b38b.mel.nbn.aussiebb.net [167.179.139.56]) (Authenticated sender: ozzmosis@ozzmosis.com) by relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 68DFD20006; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:29:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by blizzard.ozzmosis.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8A55E3829E; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:29:34 +1000 (AEST) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:29:34 +1000 From: andrew clarke To: Manish Jain Cc: Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200609022934.mklr2sg7lnckea4z@ozzmosis.com> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <20200608111734.7d18c9dd@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20200501 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gvGG4Kjxz4Gwf X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mail@ozzmosis.com designates 217.70.183.200 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mail@ozzmosis.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.67 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.003]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.70.183.192/28]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[ozzmosis.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.06)[-1.060]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.183.200:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.21)[-0.206]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.70.183.200:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com,freebsd.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:29:44 -0000 On 2020-06-08 15:37:00, Manish Jain (bourne.identity@hotmail.com) wrote: > On 2020-06-08 14:47, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > Linux has got amazing real-time capabilities, Android has got no > > real-time capabilities at all. > > Hi Ralf/others, > > Just a quick question. I have in the back of my mind to buy a huge - perhaps > 256 GB - microSD card. > > Does Android support cards formatted NTFS/ext4 ? Or is fat32 the only option > with Android ? exFAT can be used by modern Android devices (and other devices like digital cameras) that support 32+ GB cards. AFAIK brand-name microSD cards larger than 32 GB are always pre-formatted as exFAT. exFAT can be read and written to by all modern OSes: - FreeBSD with the sysutils/fuse-exfat package - Linux with the exFAT FUSE driver, and in the mainline kernel since 5.4 - Mac OS X since 10.6.5 - Microsoft Windows since Vista SP1 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 02:46:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF2C345399 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:46:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x82f.google.com (mail-qt1-x82f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gvdS5RLdz4JrK for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:46:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id y1so16485260qtv.12 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:46:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AVxZbh7+vpckGoewRE4oRTbShSsrsVNot4Dir1qwEu4=; b=HGO2/WMntIh1HBk5ClBtkNL5+C+vXXknLfTMT684EtNsy3zRz+zVI3rfencFwN/wpA ICd5Q/oj0nggtMLkUHOFxzFdVJAuPGHbQaLsNv17HeKJPcL9HMqDS1gPvsaai5ex5hbD vikbnm6NxAGtRQLjnaJJVYq2udmxRD1dH7O4xOQnzbqtAgggV7RBECBsSmwryMcaG1/U h8BtTapDIry8YfwQyoeLj54U9YgtTLWTktPT8tfaAT+eVaWJyddClKjHn2NuEqEaAliz 2oMYl5F5+2ZAqUCfdunBt0zPyN0V+MfW+Zo0ZlPwzUSwy7IvsQTmRhQVuZA65xHSquMZ jT5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AVxZbh7+vpckGoewRE4oRTbShSsrsVNot4Dir1qwEu4=; b=bAD9w0yD2KQjypR+GFox9tge7wEmfBZDXLI47IxeSBbpkEGaBbqcp1w1QMKitAPqqU eMrL9zH30AUae71Yq8VYb4oQwGYD4ojG6iIe/NQmLyD2DdKULPa5K0Gos01XxdXDlajK eiAib03kgTyBuDdz1NgdfRkE9ETlztfeCuIBmMVFR4dguyF60RXKFxMjWcFo5KWUhaM7 7I+TTwv9yX5TN9WFVSZ92UgXtf/qyOIFcY1uVTWP3TakMZaltUBmHzk09eZyjGXf/63j ZM6VmdPjDg/xNgpujh5jCuGIbuj67FFkFBlshHYDheF2N4rszVqD/ss9vyvPud2FXG6U sm1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ihAwyxa6E/RlAd+gQgaZ2yktHW9AwEl/ZgPyNSjprt3XE/oRx ApMzF91H23acSf0yThN87PVkyITW X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJykzj7ecqb0ClaNMYUGW23jfgPulQ7c5Xs42cy3AbYM1Q/bRJgnob6LZnswNZLLiel18OJtXQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5354:: with SMTP id d20mr27311719qto.363.1591670779673; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.8] (cpe-65-25-53-210.neo.res.rr.com. [65.25.53.210]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id m94sm9197082qtd.29.2020.06.08.19.46.18 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5EDEF7F9.6070001@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 22:46:17 -0400 From: Ernie Luzar User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Polytropon CC: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: determining if host has a dynamic or static ip address References: <5EDECAF9.3080406@gmail.com> <20200609032131.486b48a6.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200609032131.486b48a6.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gvdS5RLdz4JrK X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=HGO2/WMn; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luzar722@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luzar722@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.41)[-0.410]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[65.25.53.210:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.053]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.040]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:46:22 -0000 Polytropon wrote: > On Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:34:17 -0400, Ernie Luzar wrote: >> I am asking if anyone knows of a way to determine what type of public ip >> address the host has been ISP assigned [...] > > That's not exactly easy to tell. You can examine the hostname > associated to the IP, and maybe it contains something like "pool" > or "dynamic" - in that case, it's usually a dynamic IP from a > specific range. > > There are ranges allocated by the ISPs that they use as a pool > for customers' addresses assigned via DHCP (or a different means), > for example. You can check if the IP is in such a range. Again, > it's up to the ISP how they use such a range, as they could use > a subset for addresses that they actually use as static IPs. > > The "rinse & repeat" method is also not reliable: You could > disconnect and reconnect to your ISP, and if you get a different > IP each time, it's probably dynamic. If not, it can still be > assigned dynamically, so no way to be sure. Some ISPs sometimes > "bind" the dynamic IP to the MAC address of the endpoint (and > some even use the MAC address as the authentication factor for > the customer). > > More information here: > > https://whatismyipaddress.com/dynamic-static > > > >> [...] by coding a csh script? > > Why should anyone do this in _C_ shell?! > > Tom Christiansen: "sh Programming Considered Harmful", 1996 > > http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/csh > > https://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/misc/csh.html > > I know what I'm talking about, I exactly wrote (and still use) > one, in numbers: 1, C shell script. ;-) > > > >> Is it even possible? > > Depends. :-) > > > Is there some ISP standard that blocks dynamic ip address customers from being able to pass bridge and vlan info to the public internet while static ip address allow that kind of stuff out to the public internet. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 02:48:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6402A345811 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:48:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gvgP4XDWz4K2g for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:48:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.25.204]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Md6AP-1j8shh3cGZ-00aAx7; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 04:47:58 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 04:47:58 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Wesley Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200609044758.68ba401b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <7dd4776b-4326-fa9c-cd2f-2b59ca4e8e50@freenetMail.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <7dd4776b-4326-fa9c-cd2f-2b59ca4e8e50@freenetMail.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:iDz0722uFDX4UWpL6Pm4UGoQG0mCOjUbmfxVV13u3r3eVMl8ZGw SBge2lD1fLG1D6mWmPSjjGaekulk4N+x14CDzArkELm/H1EH2Toq5MGc7GqB6PMJWkszexZ B0iejbyEHdfjc3ILhOlsSKcnrgHNTNr0iy22JxHaEcvkwlPr5mIzvc+1oEv+9zfJu+Rq8ym aOcbF6OyxDiK1fUT1LqtQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:cM459/bcloc=:s67BrcXu90VdAU+VXhXTYD NehrqXV9IgMQYhGvgiAceMkVR89VP4MGoUvdZtGb6sys9qSrlET1p0wqheUCu2655q8OhA6PS aAIXecaX0cZSTRU+0UIw1UER7/ZwtseWRuCHsPVNG7aCnWbYf8hqp5NSzmHRtR9Gszq/6cLkf vO2sdqVkpSlo9NZjfNkOt06EEip3wtBHTDphfcmIO1MwvXycMAsMoE7qFACSOt7gcs1W2ltDz qLJbLeYhk8HqshCwu3CwSARIbP8VL/KxQfwY1aTzDpqhOg7EyxOk71aBkKZ3mbnrUOaepl7wF TOyPZe+OvTnR26JtfqQXcAi/pVpH/JAhwyNcoYnpJ7KuM241xg5Rq1y7GoBFQtqbXnh4vzx27 bp2uKK2RSKNJkz/TQOtqvncK0NAyGRZXIgr2DiGTfiA0l/2nSV4g10qNRhmI7fzRv6Y8eudvJ ltFONyqviubPKMioJ03sS9szfePjv5rhnpLDNCJwmG0KxRjZXsknMLQDKpA4BDWvNi79lj7I5 6hn6Z43P+MW+wvsAEtF2jVLwRz/82h/6K+iWerR/zlJweWQrwfqcFKyhvjuQU9PhC727xmrjY jKz2MFmnTAW+vmQbEt1AVJdI+2Qy4CMtKQfA40yAjuyZj0qpvRWTmuZmy8u6a5Ck4rWjqk2Sj K1E5DFz3KEUz8I+ROKAyPKJDVmf0H63IXjIiFCSRXn5wq28k951j3HiNKnMIVYkaJBVlJODkd ifEB8sxz+PA9/scA0d+V3bxZGFURNRKSM4FHXTslxkKlvcQ1R8OpJXZAHZbCMenkvBW99oI/6 Zs7b4IMg1iMarqDW70AYkYH8jz9G+Tfrg60qTDxptz9fyJgZym/1bGQCSJdsmiVC6o4hksW X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gvgP4XDWz4K2g X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.04 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.25.204:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.13)[0.134]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.10)[0.104]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.41)[0.406]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:48:03 -0000 On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:56:59 +0800, Wesley wrote: > May I ask a question, is it possible for freeBSD community to develop a > nice GUI like Mac OSX? current opensource desktop like KDE is not > behaving as well as OSX in my opinion. It's not supposed to. KDE is a multi-platform desktop environment, primarily developed under and for Linux. FreeBSD offers a port of KDE. However, the integration with the OS is not as tight as with Linux, implemented by the various distributions that are KDE-centric. On FreeBSD, there has been an attempt to create a native (!) desktop environment called Lumina. I don't know if it's still there... PC-BSD (now TrueOS) also was using KDE as their desktop environment combined with FreeBSD, preinstalled and preconfigured, with some integration for the OS (like setup dialogs and configuration tools). This also no longer exists in that specific form. FreeBSD being a multi-purpose (!) operating system does not have a desktop environment per se; it's not bundled with the OS, which would make no sense for example if you wanted to use FreeBSD on a server or on a networking appliance. However, the ports collection is the place where a FreeBSD "desktop metaport" could be placed. Note: There's also a tool called "mkdesktop" that allows you to select and install a desktop from a wide range of choices: https://www.freshports.org/sysutils/mkdesktop People who like the look & feel of macOS (Mac OS X) have found ways to implement that in many desktop environments: KDE, Gnome, Xfce and Lxde, for example, offer "Mac themes". It's even possible to create something similar with simple tools like IceWM and wbar, which isn't even a desktop environment, just a window manager and a program launcher. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 02:48:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD020345766 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:48:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gvhP5ZnYz4KTw for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:48:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.25.204]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N6svJ-1isG1422fP-018Lmf; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 04:48:45 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 04:48:45 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Jon Radel Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: determining if host has a dynamic or static ip address Message-Id: <20200609044845.b2d44e10.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <5EDECAF9.3080406@gmail.com> <20200609032131.486b48a6.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:TUCGIbS9gtTV+TwKlM5zQCMrpQlPQqL0l9C9plEe3sq90mtuCkP whvXOruov5nib0++NgLWt+D7HJJN41OV3SbTFeQwxVMF+CBM9usm8IhHOyFk/9rIGaq54Hn WsSFIqNwdapeXQ7Xgardl4YPafIN3J5R+ClqA4s9IWAi57saxDS+yEZJr6iZkwCVSWtRXkz 5UHYw4hy8/ITFZrUl2Kfg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:KmzBuBEDcsg=:vlO+Zn8IxGSQnyldFnVNWE NX7el40cUHMfURmr+4V7zeCq0QXMVSV5OUVEqP9AFNLIFuUVJXk7lTxFByrO8my6J+03Jm8R3 vEAUcJ0asiMS10yJYNEOOMfTi2N7FFah/0A68w0CXBQHJkUAcnRIVoXJZhHHEeNtTjTpE3Qlq UULsOtCuWKUrWCMCFF13c4FmexQRCsxlA81hUb+I4hxJxRf+h+FW+FmSRKC3jPp67XxA2w4R7 0SymrFZVxGbjeIK8Gd+Oai8HrMVsqqh64sx/6ZxYTggV2FTQO7wSPpIW9s8NI/RIXYyMQ4j7g R0J2T3/jWMB3G5VHDce0F5GUTX0Da6DUd3V+4+p74KNY7dtdnOSJsEwrIfyFmfuJ+jcOhtfqe O8Uk7r3RZy+pqiBGtzNPcD6Baoyfbz1DeXhJ4ZWIQRWmp1l7aTjtAtEixEaJ68KI5HHSkUwDW 45w04jQ4H0SSKmT10dn55v6djEda/7Eqe0MOAhJpG8FuGlTITFVO7eYcIn0vCsYcLOnxKQ9oQ GyChKWW9Lf5I/cFvTnSzpnIFu+bYoLs/IWHRZSatgmJVbN8gYNtSQvgtgLDinYqiuQapT7VmG p9NaXz6CqlEsFreWwUb/j6vu1GmjQC10wxVlX+DbrG3bMJtke8XXg8cAfdSqrmODBnQ5a/4YJ 2WH6k7iwQM64LjG1I52dCG+3wSADxMr12rAA4aVS7VPZQhgNdg5LUvA25I6GpHkVyJCz2L5de EpQk334kaK/y6FX1hr2XScJT8f/CpGSvBZ1XB8M4VdCNgWaLCpx6ANKtKhMJgR0g3aC65bocV sWpGiuvGIJLWImIetZtm2JTNHB/RfA3vJ/GTd7u2TYowi3KOuRKtMxHO4ZXaoBupXAK5rcB X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gvhP5ZnYz4KTw X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.11 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.25.204:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.17)[0.167]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.09)[0.094]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.45)[0.448]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.24:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:48:54 -0000 On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 22:05:24 -0400, Jon Radel wrote: > On 6/8/20 21:21, Polytropon wrote: > > Tom Christiansen: "sh Programming Considered Harmful", 1996 > > > That would be "Csh Programming Considered Harmful," which makes the > whole discussion make a bit more sense. Stupid editor! Ate my characters! :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 03:01:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D903459F4 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 03:01:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gvyK0gk9z4LY8 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 03:00:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id 18so18873586iln.9 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 20:00:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PBq+/arLAMdGKCBTkEjhPKoz32A27BunlxG2Li8KXuM=; b=YHrDXa4ahgAgw1R1YpczKch/CepbgvRn4eDEOQPmhURfycR1YFSC/CwOgic5/8DvCo sRJiHO2EJ7luImqOeE+Y1ZjfTD7YUFU4Z2N3GRWrl45sFTOLOn1DbtyPnt8AnRExVq7j RDiFC5ImeEPnCud28FEQKyPKt6TFh/aHaUeYeuWZ2sZCe9H0yMTFDMRCaPCPtMNuxQfr EakuOtQZ9KGnr7qL1BubTKEB/Fmx+6JZ+4co49M5oox/EOS0pbZs0BcwVbk4VIQLcrGY f5rWPtrE14bQaZ8Hjc42rNAbOswnWeioVspmv84iuA/PPP1x+EEis+vGG9v9ymuS/u9Z WKTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PBq+/arLAMdGKCBTkEjhPKoz32A27BunlxG2Li8KXuM=; b=CRa2cN8emLsFs7DdC3079ixaB8+EdfkNyQCXdJUnCPSDoFI8977XX8wgpWjIGTvGVH bx4/biqcyyy8ww2cT6oQXy6Pk99sDJtfrH2KF1HH/pOE5YlUgs9qErA+l5/Amnpb1DXh Y3EAF4fO5eGnglcRFmMyjQo0YRt+0EYcDjeRiVA8xj39pr11x1TjHfdZxpP5v+NJerp9 JrpDJzgB7MQCc7195cVL+H0Hr8GWUxGBwR49xYQeIKeI2rD9E9o0m2XfC7KJQH4CiRsb xOHmyYxfWAvVmbiMm43RCv8qPiqVaE93ualVElXigTCdGJ3Fa1vtrsGfsQmnwEf3oLrX jBEw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5320vx2q8edyn9vq9mKRntj312LUE0MSvH5VyhINWQjiqaTQmA7+ 4jhlZUaf66SSWzxB3q/K0v/glz9dsY0ZQeEtTVs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7++9Z52+j+J9PbNpVWwdPy4I5bxhEXZy5f1PmO2fEIv6IzwDp+Wxk7OsXJw5F8DXrg462V5x2x8wP/qWR7ds= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:eb0:: with SMTP id u16mr25903821ilj.81.1591671655860; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 20:00:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5EDECAF9.3080406@gmail.com> <20200609032131.486b48a6.freebsd@edvax.de> <5EDEF7F9.6070001@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5EDEF7F9.6070001@gmail.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 23:00:44 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: determining if host has a dynamic or static ip address To: Ernie Luzar Cc: Polytropon , "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gvyK0gk9z4LY8 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=YHrDXa4a; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.39 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.31)[-0.306]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.054]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.028]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:01:01 -0000 On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 10:46 PM Ernie Luzar wrote: > Polytropon wrote: > > On Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:34:17 -0400, Ernie Luzar wrote: > >> I am asking if anyone knows of a way to determine what type of public > ip > >> address the host has been ISP assigned [...] > > > > That's not exactly easy to tell. You can examine the hostname > > associated to the IP, and maybe it contains something like "pool" > > or "dynamic" - in that case, it's usually a dynamic IP from a > > specific range. > > > > There are ranges allocated by the ISPs that they use as a pool > > for customers' addresses assigned via DHCP (or a different means), > > for example. You can check if the IP is in such a range. Again, > > it's up to the ISP how they use such a range, as they could use > > a subset for addresses that they actually use as static IPs. > > > > The "rinse & repeat" method is also not reliable: You could > > disconnect and reconnect to your ISP, and if you get a different > > IP each time, it's probably dynamic. If not, it can still be > > assigned dynamically, so no way to be sure. Some ISPs sometimes > > "bind" the dynamic IP to the MAC address of the endpoint (and > > some even use the MAC address as the authentication factor for > > the customer). > > > > More information here: > > > > https://whatismyipaddress.com/dynamic-static > > > > > > > >> [...] by coding a csh script? > > > > Why should anyone do this in _C_ shell?! > > > > Tom Christiansen: "sh Programming Considered Harmful", 1996 > > > > http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/csh > > > > https://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/misc/csh.html > > > > I know what I'm talking about, I exactly wrote (and still use) > > one, in numbers: 1, C shell script. ;-) > > > > > > > >> Is it even possible? > > > > Depends. :-) > > > > > > > > > Is there some ISP standard that blocks dynamic ip address customers from > being able to pass bridge and vlan info to the public internet while > static ip address allow that kind of stuff out to the public internet. > Short answer: No Long answer: Unless the dynamic IP's are also private IP's (unroutable blocks) and the static ones are public IP's (or the reverse is true) then no you can not tell the difference. Many ISP's make all their IP's private for two reasons 1) conserve a scarce non-renewable resource (public IP's) and 2) make it so people can't host services/sites on their machines unless they pay for a hosting plan -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 03:14:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C394A3464E0 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 03:14:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49gwFt5Vrrz4NC7 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 03:14:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.225]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E98F4E64C; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 22:14:25 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <20200609024553.GB37422@neutralgood.org> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 22:14:23 -0500 Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <6D6C21C3-C164-4652-B8F6-73B900471B97@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <637eed20-1326-dabf-ac9d-fac12a9dbaa5@kicp.uchicago.edu> <70c87d1a-a5d1-60ed-ef75-3a363bfd4c9e@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609024553.GB37422@neutralgood.org> To: "Kevin P. Neal" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gwFt5Vrrz4NC7 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.80 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.225:received]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.18)[-0.180]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.49)[-0.492]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.73)[-0.729]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:14:27 -0000 > On Jun 8, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Kevin P. Neal wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 09:29:56AM -0700, Donald Wilde wrote: >> On 6/8/20, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >>> Still with utmost respect to OpenBSD for openSSH and general ultimate >>> security focused approach, >>> >> >> I think the fact that the other two root projects (NetBSD and FreeBSD) >> have included that code says it has all been audited at the highest >> level by people of equal capability. > > No, auditing isn't required for importing. > > Back around 1994 when OpenBSD started they started talking about how secure > they were. And then the port for the DEC Alpha stopped booting. When they > tracked down the bug they found that the OpenBSD guys had been importing > NetBSD code without looking at it. > > It was something along the lines of (in locore.s): > #ifdef OPENBSD > jmp 0 > #endif > > That's one example, and it's true it was in the mid-90's. It's just an > example to show my point. > > Importing the openssh code from OpenBSD just means it gets the job done > and is good enough. I doubt any FreeBSD developer has audited the OpenSSH > code, the OpenSSL code, the SQLite code, or any of the other medium-sized > projects that are in the FreeBSD tree now. The exceptions are probably > projects that were imported once and then developed in-tree afterwards, > like the IPv6 stack. > Thanks, Kevin. This was really instructive! Valeri > -- > Kevin P. Neal http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ > > "What is mathematics? The age-old answer is, of course, that mathematics > is what mathematicians do." - Donald Knuth From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 03:55:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CFC347783 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 03:55:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from mout2.freenet.de (mout2.freenet.de [IPv6:2001:748:100:40::2:4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.freenet.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gx8m3fYkz4SKv for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 03:55:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley@freenetMail.de) Received: from [195.4.92.165] (helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mout2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (port 25) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiVLp-0007Wr-4g for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 05:55:01 +0200 Received: from [::1] (port=47370 helo=mjail2.freenet.de) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiVLp-00073e-2p for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 05:55:01 +0200 Received: from sub3.freenet.de ([195.4.92.122]:47914) by mjail2.freenet.de with esmtpa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiVJL-0006w1-Bn for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 05:52:27 +0200 Received: from [154.213.3.116] (port=60751 helo=[172.21.89.41]) by sub3.freenet.de with esmtpsa (ID wesley@freenetMail.de) (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305:256) (port 587) (Exim 4.92 #3) id 1jiVJK-0004mx-Sh for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 05:52:27 +0200 Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <7dd4776b-4326-fa9c-cd2f-2b59ca4e8e50@freenetMail.de> <20200609044758.68ba401b.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Wesley Message-ID: <8a8cc0bf-21a6-b963-d6d8-9771a451ddcc@freenetMail.de> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:52:23 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200609044758.68ba401b.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originated-At: 154.213.3.116!60751 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gx8m3fYkz4SKv X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley@freenetMail.de has no SPF policy when checking 2001:748:100:40::2:4) smtp.mailfrom=wesley@freenetMail.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.59 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.26)[0.261]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freenetMail.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.75)[0.751]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.68)[0.677]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2001:748:100:40::2:4:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5430, ipnet:2001:748::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:55:05 -0000 Thank you @Polytropon for the kind suggestion. Polytropon wrote: > FreeBSD being a multi-purpose (!) operating system does not have > a desktop environment per se; it's not bundled with the OS, which > would make no sense for example if you wanted to use FreeBSD on > a server or on a networking appliance. However, the ports collection > is the place where a FreeBSD "desktop metaport" could be placed. > > Note: There's also a tool called "mkdesktop" that allows you to > select and install a desktop from a wide range of choices: > > https://www.freshports.org/sysutils/mkdesktop From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 04:39:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2032A3485A1 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 04:39:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from out-mx.anatoli.ws (out-mx.anatoli.ws [177.54.157.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "out-mx.anatoli.ws", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gy7b2W1yz4WnH for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 04:39:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (unknown [192.168.0.1]) by out-mx.oprbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1842B1E00BCA; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 04:38:58 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=anatoli.ws; s=vnptcm0lqn; t=1591677539; bh=c/GIGVysA+Knq9jcvSscvO8g8tfQWoU/WVL9LvflT3o=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=QKojg90q/U5RCkm4z66rEdZWMHxpLC6SlSte3dLtlsScNqUeeJi4vDLSqyDkU6JCY q0VifV5zy4n5TKZZNxMsktwFhkh9XEJqHLfkh8e0QJpsjku402ujbaFZUpAAWvY4m2 Byme1r/eSboARcCYnufS/z84soQi0oHz4Bx+7H4QJg0k1rWjjCi8ad5fYHKf6mPv/A vgXxh05X1zT2yehdbukVPYPgdwxnXSsMOQOWtULLPfX+kbdJqvOyhhyDqpgpQVrGqO 2cxM1kwrL5cDopxUUFNL0cgwBVurMY2rLH9GMeLn48YSuchVDYryIW+WpSr0HXjjLu yYEUI3bk9ceug== Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> From: Anatoli Message-ID: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 01:38:56 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gy7b2W1yz4WnH X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=anatoli.ws header.s=vnptcm0lqn header.b=QKojg90q; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=anatoli.ws; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of me@anatoli.ws designates 177.54.157.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=me@anatoli.ws X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.41 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[anatoli.ws:s=vnptcm0lqn]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:out-mx.anatoli.ws]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.989]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[anatoli.ws:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[anatoli.ws,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.891]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.029]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:262287, ipnet:177.54.156.0/22, country:BR]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 04:39:09 -0000 If you're talking about the allegations that Jason Wright planted backdoors into OpenBSD for FBI, then you invented about 90% of the story. The story is about Gregory Perry's (a former technical consultant for the FBI) allegations that Jason Wright (an ex-dev) and NETSEC (the company he and some others worked for) accepted US government money to put backdoors into OpenBSD's network stack, in particular the IPSEC stack, around 2000-2001. This information is public, was discussed multiple times and nothing extraordinary resulted from it. After the allegations went public, extensive audits were conducted internally and externally and nothing serious or of intentional nature was found by anyone. For those interested, here are some links: 1. A TL;DR version about the story by ArsTechnica: [1]; 2. Theo De Raadt (founder of OpenBSD) mail disclosing the allegations made privately to him: [2]; 3. His follow-up email: [3]; 4. A follow-up email from Gregory Perry (the one making allegations) after his initial email was made public by Theo [4] 5. Damien Miller (OpenSSH/OpenBSD) comments about feasibility of such implantation, very insightful for those interested in technical details (as the entire thread) [5]; 6. All allegations denied by named participants: [6]; 7. A follow-up to the story from the past year (2019), a FOIA request to the FBI to disclose any involvement with OpenBSD: [7]. If you're talking about this story, nothing new or interesting. If you're talking about something else, then the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. So don't say "check that on your own". You're making a public claim, provide the proof or be considered just a FUD-spreader. On the other hand, no software project, public or private, is immune to governments trying to insert backdoors, though Bruce Schneier believes this would be just plain stupid: [8]. > I too was considering OpenBSD the most secure operating system out > there. Till the moment I've learned ..." So even *if* we suppose that there were any backdoors planted in OpenBSD (which was never demonstrated by anyone publicly), do you have any better alternative than OpenBSD? Some OS guaranteed to be free from government backdoors? Any OS better suited for entire system audits due to its simplicity and a small, clean code base? Any OS with a better secure development and peer review process? If not, what's your point then? [1]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/openbsd-code-audit-uncovers-bugs-but-no-evidence-of-backdoor/ [2]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129236621626462&w=2 [3]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129296046123471 [4]: https://www.csoonline.com/article/2136901/an-fbi-backdoor-in-openbsd-.html [5]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129237675106730&w=2 [6]: https://www.itworld.com/article/2744922/openbsd-fbi-allegations-denied-by-named-participants.html [7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20489904 [8]: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/did_the_fbi_pla.html On 8/6/20 12:44, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 2020-06-08 09:25, Anatoli wrote: >>> The most secure… if you dismiss the fact that one of the developer (who wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receiving payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. >> >> Rumors + FUD or do you have any proof? >> > > When I heard that I checked, and receipt of payments was confirmed by developer himself. That is my recollection, I am merely human whose memory can not be perfect, check that on your own. This even if confirmed as a fact, does not mean he left back doors or weak spots in code. > > The rest is for everyone: to do one's own home work: > > 1. who don't care just dismiss what is said > > 2. Who do care to verify if receipt of payments is the fact, just verify on your own (I never think of myself to be considered the source of absolute truth. Merely as a help to point into direction where who is interested may find something helpful) > > If one verifies the fact of payment(s), the decide for yourself: > > A. Audit the code (I for one realize I will not be able to find fishy spots in that sophisticated code, so this can not be my choice) > > B. Accept that it is likely that good enough programmers did audit code, hence there are no weak (or worse) spots in it > > C. Accept that what top programmer wrote is not that easy to audit, and just shy away from what may (just merely may) be not quite kosher. If you care, of course. > > > And again, do your own thinking, this may, just merely may help someone. > > > Valeri > >> On 8/6/20 10:26, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:26 PM, Anatoli wrote: >>>> >>>> IMO >>>> >>>> * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, zfs), >>>>   competes directly with Linux >>>> >>>> * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS >>> >>> The most secure… if you dismiss the fact that one of the developer (who wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was simultaneously receiving payments from one of three letter agencies for several years. >>> >>> Valeri >>> >>>> and a really >>>>   good desktop, but its absence of server-class performance is its >>>>   weakest side + no zfs (just ffs2) and limited virtualization (no SMP) >>>>   so not suitable for any serious server load where absolute security is >>>>   not a must). The king in its niche (paranoid security) >>>> >>>> * NetBSD: toasters & freezers (runs on anything, otherwise not sure >>>>   what's the point :), competes with FreeBSD and Linux (and Linux now >>>>   supports more archs/platforms than Net). IMO no clear vision and thus >>>>   attracts too little resources both human and economic. IMO midterm not >>>>   much hope for survival, same as DFly and smaller BSDs. >>>> >>>> I believe that OS development is an economy of scale (doing things more >>>> efficiently or having other advantaged with increasing size) with a >>>> tendency for a monopoly in the same niche. >>>> >>>> There are some features that the larger players establish as a >>>> commodity, but that are very time-intensive and complex to develop (e.g. >>>> virtualization, wifi ac and now ax). So what Linux implemented more than >>>> a decade ago, the BSDs are just catching up now. >>>> >>>> Linux world had 2 "obstacles" to its almost flawless growth recently >>>> (systemd and a ZFS alternative). Now that the things have almost settled >>>> up, if they don't commit any more serious errors I don't see how the >>>> BSDs (except OpenBSD as it's not a direct competitor) could compete with >>>> it in the long term. >>>> >>>> Now with ZoL/OpenZFS the long-term future even for FreeBSD is not that >>>> clear (and the recent iX decisions [1] [2] are a clear sign). >>>> >>>> [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/truenas-isnt-abandoning-bsd-but-it-is-adopting-linux/ >>>> [2] https://www.truenas.com/TrueOS-Discontinuation/ >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/6/20 22:35, Wesley wrote: >>>>> greetings, >>>>> >>>>> There were freebsd and netbsd (maybe others?) in BSD world. >>>>> What points did they focus by design? >>>>> what are their use scenes then? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>>>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>> > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 05:01:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B834B348B24 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 05:01:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic307-7.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic307-7.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gydM5xL1z4Yrc for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 05:01:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: Qi_KlZMVM1lP2qBwubY8F0qQJiK79qTcHnIdaJyFekfUTroIIBs4jvFw6yKQDnw rAp7r9h0DRZ_uU_IGog3to6BKlBJSZB5tQELERtQ6PeFEQom9E1IJXpbcZ_o4mhFlDtcC7V7K.Nv J7S30dbVtLPgVZ5HL.KLeGF9g3TNWS4zes6WzL2A_LFQ2tLbjhNFcLvnR_7K6W2IWYR5c19mB_g2 3TqLzACzWC3T6OJFkrp5zaPu7nLJo2_ZwaYLU125EzqYeXIVz5VM0gr9rEtzJQXzHUqFv8E8DLfU ntE5QfjNYWm3CCKSs.vQ_rbnhzUSEa7suR4kFwD4h6TfbtipeJdVbzT.NqYcPFg.HHcSUWWN9lFs O6v0GP.gGa7GNXMKRRzO2f3PqpEqRhTEC0KNE0EYCIfm535p1rlVEp35BimJVyMdHUfAdCA0SEei p50oI91aw5JRWSqVPiHLh4eksSL6k15es4cfpGKFA_GPbxZshpah7_jKnZ9Iw_iC39KimEbfwTKc DvJxQDZS0qky_Bp9a2c1G6E3qCg98ifpHFB.5Yzu8dsYFCo1OWSSgvCCVH.HFtCeQGabokZ0nfDi B7L9lGzDXm.JKl1cAeZnzvqQ0RaYBnfy_L9ZcYwK4NDX_O6Jkwisf39mMsX1jV1gz0ecaku9cTah 0KrOILCdavaDzIWnFERiSyi_iceZBK7bVcpbSbosjpzgR7Xmfy0L1bxqx8P19wnQro2LfvDu.8XH 0MB4HxJcg2u0EXyJa9PzqlPbKAuDTKtz6RnnVxerAfHQMvQyn6eQKSFTC9WG06HhoLYdDzcVx3_7 8eKpPDRACaQDay54N8peT2.bD89ExLdlymPPxJanmrrVHEz.pkFkncwVMbICCrT11ALT0xjhhuwK MwX2K8HJ.l3NHuUL0T7OfqQhDUJL5x5SMs7x50WZpCCX0N7lwOoO.pZMAkabc8U3CDIO8IAr_7CV CAGCTRjCGanyJr.X1Z4qsvO9IR7c6VsmlZzEzqMC3zSpm6njHAG3cJql6XTzSx8Qvsx0SXzbpSSH bev_tqSi2Ha5BWi_mIXShlMmUNsUALp8OEsIz13D6lZA4Ln9H0ngmfpzXu6_AlDizhKIyMxIb7LH CS.R8nNboE4MlO_Ho8pt4shwcf6wYUBbpAOXFE9mWadeJIbHPOBbEnY39GadD8bAj4GR.3_XBpU. TX2x_wQUejzVRxT1IBlPsiocf5TtWBkBn8nHLXU8qoT6H3YMi6xTJA.JtToFGLsa986Lqu75O.49 0qKO.cw6Et00U1wSRll6xrsVZ0VdwK2EcianQaiOBAYvihgRpb8UGrJEtemeCAz9k3cUaGtGx7TJ dIhQP3r0bWSx7gyIy_aejlQnknZ6eUOKyUOZPHAquLpoF9atU9ieD.i5BV.lWZvsw2BioGi3NMrv eRujMNihDzg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 05:01:25 +0000 Received: by smtp421.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 66d3df7905ee811cf807ecdd9b5f765d; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 05:01:20 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 07:01:19 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200609070119.53265934@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gydM5xL1z4Yrc X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.37 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[87.248.110.32:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.052]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.921]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[87.248.110.32:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 05:01:28 -0000 On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:40:28 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 9:21 AM Valeri Galtse wrote: >> Disclaimer: majority of systems I have in my list of UNIXes strictly >> speaking can not be called UNIX, as they do not pay loyalties for >> that name to AT&T. > >Just as with Java your information on the legal status of Unix is >****WAY OUT OF DATE***** from wikipedia article on Unix (end of second >paragraph) [you really should stop saying stuff unless you know it to >be by objective fact to be true]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_v._Oracle_America https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-avoid-oracles-zfs-kernel-code-on-linux-until-litigious-larry-signs-off/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 05:32:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8FA349272 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 05:32:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x130.google.com (mail-il1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49gzK21dz0z4crn for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 05:32:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x130.google.com with SMTP id z2so19123265ilq.0 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 22:32:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9RTPH22KT4DM8hkDNOKeCNW1BE1YIYogT739EU+0r1s=; b=dhSLrMwyLUp9uMIczwtEIBQ/uyc8TxKnKlPLOhw3eGQVVC/zxf6O47ZHozlyUcPWjZ tV/Miak1nRbYWKAO1TS129hemOxWmK5WaCnJuD5p/Wp93jJgQ3PEnWuaIK8ElQU5mR9i LaCVsx8XRwUYFvb+oeZVQF49VzNOO8z2S6C2fii/SZ4VrLyPdBLUU8xaHesWTR9CibrS WbPPyfJ1E7Hzbsj/FAPryFbUWN9pbGqI9kWYr+bqY0tYaVTsMuHx4al1dfhRtA1USyro REjNjglRSPBH4SMwLqrSorAuR4a+P0/V333MT9EDeoUQaRy7x29B8Cs04TEuV6/i3a5D pFhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9RTPH22KT4DM8hkDNOKeCNW1BE1YIYogT739EU+0r1s=; b=sSItt7OtxbWh2z8ufNmD9h/fk/1atVLP+ouvpmDseVYCCsGWs6MJGzIlpV5zgtjHlc KQWJtiABLowsU47B44r1+JiNLBERfi/9bbOxCT852eDeTXIxFwpCcYTbHGNR+uKZaqa4 Fq/aRnqQ/l9K9fDnXfPjg8BIdxMX8g8J2v5/ta7eli4p6XWiV5oMeaM2jwCxqzyqwBHj T4N0XrNDyQ0LxXrsmEIH23VDCGlTfg5ROxTAZVr+fMJ8lqyOqQRT6CjrMCSTDexL8kkV WRG9qGzKBeZPrUSaFC6qu7UtpYWmU6EFvLBNx7w0XgBPxwkJwdt5h3WDdmoXmiIdw+SW lLcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532KJ+TX4G80jNdOap7w45aub5C/97nsoXcsdn2XYdAXTLZ0us/I eIN7a+zzH9ZJMm2qp5B6t34MWAbJyNGVsjcNtuA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtbJ8jKyZ5QQdfwSs5Gd9b569sYT19hY3tkP8jzTpbrTcRKH53IYEP2bf7HuWwjPlOVpw32ZFPhuQLuh5j2Ss= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:eb0:: with SMTP id u16mr26304861ilj.81.1591680740204; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 22:32:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <20200609070119.53265934@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200609070119.53265934@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 01:32:08 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49gzK21dz0z4crn X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=dhSLrMwy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::130 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.43 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.027]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.006]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::130:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.39)[-0.394]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 05:32:23 -0000 On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 1:01 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 09:40:28 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 9:21 AM Valeri Galtse wrote: > >> Disclaimer: majority of systems I have in my list of UNIXes strictly > >> speaking can not be called UNIX, as they do not pay loyalties for > >> that name to AT&T. > > > >Just as with Java your information on the legal status of Unix is > >****WAY OUT OF DATE***** from wikipedia article on Unix (end of second > >paragraph) [you really should stop saying stuff unless you know it to > >be by objective fact to be true]: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_v._Oracle_America Complete misunderstanding of the issues. The issue here is the copyright on the standard library and *NOT* the language. The court also said that the copyright was for the contents of the library and not it's functionality and/or external signatures (only the internal code). Anyone is allowed to make a work alike that even uses the same external interface as GNU has done in GCC. > > > https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-avoid-oracles-zfs-kernel-code-on-linux-until-litigious-larry-signs-off/ ZFS was originally released open source and anyone can still use it. Oracle relicensed *NEW* versions of it (you're still free to use old versions and give them identical enhancements even to the closed source version provided you used no closed source code). It should be noted that *ANY* open source project can do that with a new version of their project for example (neglecting the political firestorm that would erupt) both Linux and FreeBSD could make their next versions closed source and not a single person can stop them (assuming that they still abide by the licensing requirements of third party subcomponents). So someone saying that they are not willing to use X because it is "no longer open source" is a complete red herring. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 06:32:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6D534AF05 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 06:32:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic309-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic309-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49h0fT4rwMz3WZW for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 06:32:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: rIZpRy8VM1nfhUaCDeSpGmk555Zjee.xJINE1e.fnLdreZOsMmU9tQRPfAa0qaC jdEStgKjKXT_XG5nul49g42Xnd5qtL2lIAoLDnuqOg4wcpNkUWSRMUlUSWutGq6UOTtzX96MtJKO WrXIrmKZwB6A3SLBrub6p6TFI.ids_VNIQ6_YYw5Ox_9oQWmMhBLQ8B0Wq2r7l7scPA9lc.bhKD6 wQs1qIQw.1pAnH3qqeNavnHXMePkHjET_tTnupvY6PcQ9Lws8hbQdiYS6VK4xQ2SmY8qW7v.pc6v IcYUt1nw9.WhfFHZ6co_5LuPg6PYww6.OG6LJa5Yon8yiSOBRr4_77n_HEE3UfGW4mAHrYfi3Cu2 R2OzY.NdudZ1f5W61ulBUQVroSW7mdH_EUzyNUfGv3_k8MUWcRBbpkdl9sHuWy6fNaMeNTb0Dw0F KApDAUBGTwJGNS3fHMRlSMx699FjUX3VGXw9KRDo6fKsGyKJLbpvjcLjR7vAjcz2ejGYdmdoHRWD o4xrXSMN2uTFGXkWzdliYma5adUpxdRLu5dbZgZRjnf8m9U1WDQkEydI3j3bLaPHooWPPDqqgDI6 cZc8ApfgtMRNM9rb2tHXNraLzcFbOShMZSD38BKZ.XYHCgxPkGfcvOgifkb7dx8rpTCqhWv0N3qf 7gMLLbxfPTVWHmAGVMOj63Gi8qeI.BekDSOZ7x7WJJpFZ7CkUXshVSLU6MAIjcUmZE78Za9W2tOq puU2k7aOqj53VeR15DzeHMI2ALkZzdVPfPBZif4qGNS0VdnJzFbawJsRuUhGOdtnhlUue3pn07x. 4HXYN3ebiUEfOVYXJiQ5oH.NcDfR3wEAZfuVHieBvDii9P7PSX0GlfP78.GKNVgYGHrcRSXOUDMb vF5uEBRGsEIJNG6lKtl9Y5Twq60exnccInfEKclCwWurYCCK1DZDEXxOYT5jZMdaJ782a2VundRU QvZncBWyeJ6yDDKH3E2vQneBhWdPxBUAvnqaY87a3wU.iohiIV2YUHETjU4b1uhxpkRc.Hexou.Z vWbLFzFNIoHWwdAXsfqiU3.1_a966Pm8883_sqw125bU7_M0SmGl3vZMc6uOBz8L5whbWEiow57w JtV.MNT1mw8Dof37vwwaZXQci5Q5V88pbXwpmbTgoLVIq7IGo.eKNHvmocDN92ZT.fOWJRx34rfr MF4HCMe50SCUI1lPvVshrkuWZI.z7RGGxlzpC3T0CdJqqcgXrhnqGUGBz51oKB12H3s7ostvuTJt 8o89aZt7Rjhj9XCnqOk1eULY_3dlcmV8_j7KFrYKC.l_T9nL8UXIXG2rHk9JV4e.3zFN1onzBgjc vp3XvIfw33A47GThwaiqqR__xMMfHw928EzuroxOzuIKMD893ZRZJe9HN4fkMyPOu5hNXAhuWucp TILzT Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 06:32:31 +0000 Received: by smtp428.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 2f075cc7e2da69e87cd905d0c454aa5f; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 06:32:27 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 08:32:26 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200609083226.3e394d99@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <20200609070119.53265934@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49h0fT4rwMz3WZW X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.98 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.005]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.84:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.56)[-0.558]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.932]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.84:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 06:32:34 -0000 On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 01:32:08 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >Complete misunderstanding I haven't written anything, I just posted two links. Oracle created a self-image experts tend to misunderstand. It's a good reason for people who are neither computer nor law experts, to stay a way from programming something or programming with something, that in any sort is related to Oracle. So unless somebody doesn't have the comprehensive knowledge you've got, it's wise to be sceptic and to mess about with something, that is completely unrelated to Oracle. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 06:59:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301BA34BB42 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 06:59:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x142.google.com (mail-il1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49h1F413x5z3ZjR for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 06:59:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x142.google.com with SMTP id 9so19241801ilg.12 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 23:59:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=r1bj5ax6pcgWBpPzRJVPvy+dWAJZPVuhS7/7bjUkhxU=; b=MoJ9NEUO+fJaxf6DjTfHvh2dg9UyiyBmq7R4kkIZUF0yrGshtnOAJ1zkEP6TqtlyW+ G/Fi+BqA4rwMhZOLOqTgk+bhDLHjyTdmCIlw4e40N+hRnAp0o71XV569NRBqXU9ziamT FbPG06NCtGgW2C49tlSqjfnzvZRs3rKASTwqRZgbb0xHmOvfRlTcm1IsZjx2bxonSk2P EkVvjhr9/AGXxjAwg68Ab1J+1yCEBWel0Z3Ob13wSCq5Xuwl6MVfj6OYiTPuUSZuqLU7 MexUTKtlolMuYsqB1kxxWoGlEBPRwdzYZPVyBJYsPFG56ZujTGEvysgL9kocaHYQBbSP KnTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=r1bj5ax6pcgWBpPzRJVPvy+dWAJZPVuhS7/7bjUkhxU=; b=TiVo0gdbTrhz6xkqgoM2PrZrjNRhN+6A11wwzKh6NCC1Qd5tUOswxeTRZ6ji9KQQpx pHk4UbAyrA+q2t0AU4NlsIaFzVAXigPeWSmstL7O/u2j8eEfm5sffDK/mmSmkGAaB1uT InfICswJQk1PKQhYFsxTVamC/XqstUsOvmwTPxNVvkXhObBfF5FkAo34XK5aHvtWFAHX ewPWihINSbepEMC7nIsM/9fxqOzQ1lB7KvIB+80aU+11APgXUKhoLwKohPdnmDEzYzzP BZNEv44/Z9Nar0oSFF4Dug0QldPkd6QQi/nlCljgS4+g3zOXR5sSG5FgEf4yF/2dpnKj 9BQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531fUaeIJ1n44Cv99UFfGJxolsc3+6d89Cqnjz9SNbskU+JHjdxS Vh28RQh9YmB2fHZkuVTJmOfWm0akqDsnt9+Ibmc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx14XG/t6cto3/rzCoRjAFZi000wQ3Bc5fEto9HdGzT/LSevPgNwzcwsWU/CYAZRPxZWjHW2FHWfzrw25YjR0Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:eb0:: with SMTP id u16mr26552845ilj.81.1591685943225; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 23:59:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <20200609070119.53265934@archlinux> <20200609083226.3e394d99@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200609083226.3e394d99@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 02:58:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49h1F413x5z3ZjR X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=MoJ9NEUO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.027]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::142:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.63)[-0.629]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 06:59:05 -0000 On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:32 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 01:32:08 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >Complete misunderstanding > > I haven't written anything, I just posted two links. Oracle created a > self-image experts tend to misunderstand. It's a good reason for people > who are neither computer nor law experts, to stay a way from > programming something or programming with something, that in any sort is > related to Oracle. So unless somebody doesn't have the comprehensive > knowledge you've got, it's wise to be sceptic and to mess about with > something, that is completely unrelated to Oracle. > Take your own advice. OpenJDK is licensed under GPL and includes a complete copy of the Java standard library (in source form) as the licensing FAQ on Oracle site says (thus the entire Java standard library is under GPL): "Are there any restrictions on what I can do with it? OpenJDK is released under an well-known open-source licensing model, that places no restrictions on your ability to run OpenJDK. Please check the legal section of the OpenJDK project site to understand the scope of your rights and obligations." Perhaps you (and other people) are mistaking the "Oracle JDK" for OpenJDK, they are NOT the same as stated in the same FAQ: "Is Oracle JDK based on OpenJDK? Yes. Oracle JDK is based on the OpenJDK source code. In addition, it contains closed-source components. The final result is licensed under a Binary Code License." [Note none of those closed source components are part of the standard library {i.e. in packages java.* or javax.*}] Also before you say OpenJDK is not a full implementation of the Java standard wikipedia on OpenJDK says: "OpenJDK is the official reference implementation of Java SE since version 7" Perhaps you think due to a misreading of the lawsuit that no one else can create a JDK. Again from the same FAQ: "Doesn't OpenJDK make other Java SE implementations superfluous? No. Java users can benefit from a choice of compatible Java SE implementations provided by multiple vendors under various commercial models. The different compatible Java SE implementations compete on aspects such as tuning to different architectures, performance, tools and deployment." [Note other JDK's and components can also be made non-commercial also such as GNU has done or commercial such as IBM has done]. So the real issue of the Google lawsuit was that Google had produced a JVM that was bytecode incompatible with the JVM defined in the language and JVM specs and claimed to call it Java (in this case "Java" is a trademark of Oracle). Oracle objected because of the incompatibility it broke one of the requirements of the spec which is 100% byte level compatibility between different JVM's for stuff defined in the spec. Google refused to modify their JVM to meet the standard and thus Oracle revoked permission to use the trademark (not the contents of the specs or any other technical aspect they only required that Google call it something other than Java). This is no different then why FreeBSD can not legally call itself "Unix" it has to say "Unix-like". If Google called their JVM "Java-like" then the issue is solved yet Google refused to. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 09:23:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F7C34E1F5 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:23:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xpetrl@beepc.ch) Received: from srv.fastssdserver.com (srv.fastssdserver.com [162.223.31.2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49h4RJ4zxpz46Dt for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:23:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xpetrl@beepc.ch) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=beepc.ch; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=lYH7MgjoBeAl+ol4sr0ncEsGRdvjXjNFpNLmD11rI/k=; b=qcfnFvI/QXQkNPXAgKz1BqF/w5 fkhB6bZ9im6lHM5P43COu2uCjVhjtOhKvnJrGMAC9dHiAznoBNRKa7z12RX0F1sSGjikjrpUknmgv DZCNcrVT6WpFO0rEg3kfeGPGxDM7DxvtTEBHK4hJ5UdRa4Bxx2UW8xGZSY9Nv/2FLmRzcO3Svrx+g /Ur47nrIhwc60Mnj8fAw5z8UONzWngRWEZNlgx8B6r+Jfii8pDAKbWi6PxkPjAAslqlUdn9zWfLsV Veyu9vcEqaZWc4Fzp03NZJpneK+a485zSR81ehHEbVmCG9Hy8Kl9/f0fgzx1t29F6Va8Si72fTed9 J2/QXhMQ==; Received: from [185.43.245.85] (port=58772 helo=[10.5.50.185]) by srv.fastssdserver.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1jiaTE-006GnX-Sj for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:23:01 +0500 Subject: Re: Minimal skills To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> From: xpetrl Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:22:58 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - srv.fastssdserver.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - beepc.ch X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: srv.fastssdserver.com: authenticated_id: xpetrl@beepc.ch X-Authenticated-Sender: srv.fastssdserver.com: xpetrl@beepc.ch X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49h4RJ4zxpz46Dt X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=beepc.ch header.s=default header.b=qcfnFvI/; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of xpetrl@beepc.ch designates 162.223.31.2 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=xpetrl@beepc.ch X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.40 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[beepc.ch:s=default]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; HAS_X_SOURCE(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.030]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[beepc.ch]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[beepc.ch:+]; HAS_X_GMSV(0.00)[xpetrl@beepc.ch]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.62)[-0.625]; HAS_X_ANTIABUSE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.76)[0.756]; ASN(0.00)[asn:46261, ipnet:162.223.31.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_X_AS(0.00)[xpetrl@beepc.ch] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:23:09 -0000 > The common language of FreeBSD and CS/E is C. With the following platform, you can practice coding in more that 50 languages of your choice: https://exercism.io I stated practice in C and Perl (5), IMHO is very useful and funny: after every exercise I made (starting from the classic "hello world!"), a mentor is checking you code giving you advises how to improve your skills. It is 100% free. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 09:56:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4580234EE5C for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:56:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49h59V3NRqz49k6 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:56:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id w90so17038679qtd.8 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:56:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=L3Dal62Eow6lmRU05HdheGLhL1ZFNlYLKg/1mRJYo3I=; b=pQmV/1sa0Sm9GT5zdFPEo12mM2/13Dtv6OEijnXgVNJcgNi4EAJg30cg9d4vTjVLfM Y5K7sNfREgk35VD7op0KDTcStpgWqVa75J0zO31LwNFz7Z/Kk+O4BdVADqUc+AEmMlLg zcMKR0MmimM7vZqBkWyXYMEVn8T96JHaj0/Zw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=L3Dal62Eow6lmRU05HdheGLhL1ZFNlYLKg/1mRJYo3I=; b=h9D0j/CTruNaZkHHMhOqmIFa2SjNdVSLzQf0I+MKBht2A6ms4XcmCvstp8i6b2OUuS oQ1ZCEY1TaXx+bEudCi7OLXZk6IvDXbvDFJHLEOqEjjnB7nWkw0rm6MBRIAq7+lYOToX EoC9CESJftDNMYRZGtxZIgX+6GuYgwVOl5QF9nP/MjmMUrcBjIvN+2kJzhUL9JxZAm/t gicDTS7Y02sltJ3HV3Bf4qSSsksfq1dk6hCY9IrAo4E9jdrPPjeY3dmKMEkGzhbPwYUG LFRM2xD2oVEKr6eekXQFHg55tQsZy76X1+kLsTDI+aT7UkKkQpTvlutzCmR37N/rsaAM Va0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530E87Edn1Dl/MSCVys91V5zhPdyiWzYuKhqEIrwcymJwIHrVk/i dgld76au7+UQiwOAGNN5I9F34ZL+5bo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxwZBT+q2ZyHFdxqDVGjzaAuwUUVYdvk5ecWDn+vvalO6LoCCJR48BSCKmuTt8ag5rO5nlZ2A== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7b4d:: with SMTP id m13mr19440404qtu.165.1591696572905; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r37sm10107484qtk.34.2020.06.09.02.56.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 02:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49h59P292Yz1gFd for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 05:56:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 05:56:02 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200609055602.00005728@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200609022934.mklr2sg7lnckea4z@ozzmosis.com> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <20200608111734.7d18c9dd@archlinux> <20200609022934.mklr2sg7lnckea4z@ozzmosis.com> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/d2adE7LW6F41XsD3ovoTwH_"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49h59V3NRqz49k6 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=pQmV/1sa; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::836 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.74 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.020]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.36)[0.357]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::836:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:56:15 -0000 --Sig_/d2adE7LW6F41XsD3ovoTwH_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:29:34 +1000, andrew clarke commented: >On 2020-06-08 15:37:00, Manish Jain (bourne.identity@hotmail.com) >wrote: > >> On 2020-06-08 14:47, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: =20 >> > Linux has got amazing real-time capabilities, Android has got no >> > real-time capabilities at all. =20 >>=20 >> Hi Ralf/others, >>=20 >> Just a quick question. I have in the back of my mind to buy a huge - >> perhaps 256 GB - microSD card. >>=20 >> Does Android support cards formatted NTFS/ext4 ? Or is fat32 the >> only option with Android ? =20 > >exFAT can be used by modern Android devices (and other devices like >digital cameras) that support 32+ GB cards. AFAIK brand-name microSD >cards larger than 32 GB are always pre-formatted as exFAT. > >exFAT can be read and written to by all modern OSes: > >- FreeBSD with the sysutils/fuse-exfat package >- Linux with the exFAT FUSE driver, and in the mainline kernel since >5.4 >- Mac OS X since 10.6.5 >- Microsoft Windows since Vista SP1 Small correction, that would be the "'sysutils/fusefs-exfat' port. You should also probably install the 'systuils/exfat-utils' port also. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/d2adE7LW6F41XsD3ovoTwH_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7fXLIACgkQOHMGOIfe xWQ0oQf/ckPXxZKsewyNewebKgEl3LSz2pg5NkGAAPlh4e9vUMarLuOMhNWjduBF R2OcSBoYXj1gPP/gt81YwU2rx7odwd+1B5JGFyB4DzorDYMFFEvbZsfoK1nUU/P1 1L9Fl+7hFiGv160XWqnYjq2ua5cNzaq5ZZZHsdgFF1gEMDVy4sE8zUoa+nWPQs+E qzgTP4dIIXinJxiQ/Q2pRbHTLTXBSKXCWxlYn4mfeX8XZTx5aVi2FgqVdrmvPwJF POxBX/iaFUXTbXErbNRtPA0dl7Tmy0ogOcgQUTaqus5ILaVrW0nQNzFGaDTYl4Gr eBSDe+02NaUtTGsu73em9MMpIs7QlA== =36z1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/d2adE7LW6F41XsD3ovoTwH_-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 10:05:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E9C34F66D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:05:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49h5Mp6mtBz4Bdb for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:05:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id i16so17069713qtr.7 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:05:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=54EZRW4NgNJObrDsuCuncdh7oKe7c00I/na7/fjoY+A=; b=e0ySlBC+mmfXw92VlnMSAPCH8I8j23zeMKUgvDX5d9Lho86RmZLchmiIOWWcwJpXMC Z8RIpc0uXuhHSPg2oIFjcF8FuXc6pmZXAPSjlBgZD7C6p9ETqLny6mWfY6KmuJ3uY3Sd 770QM+n3skLElPAAxIPQVMpmF7fk4LRxmMX/0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=54EZRW4NgNJObrDsuCuncdh7oKe7c00I/na7/fjoY+A=; b=POpWfrOnpjXHTPCdFLvP8ukiqC6obPTwSfFH/Ujs52N3srb4OrhN70clb9oHzZjBiZ YyhPKJzw67EboBhxUsJsOaiKzkgyy6J1RWfC3w8/zE2oNj3SVfpNPHR+YBnxX/93Mpmm JLHoQ8DRqi5vvsKNOrogtTjGSaj2IOEM3Mvoxov2aNPlGo8ikzfryfrIsqUUNlq4FAzG L0gAWQKt4UX0A7FsGEfq51iHGZVMR8H1dR8n552Nq56IQKA+1pOe0ZCuAYjyWsoj2cDy xbddsnnK/iDggefxF1B7zDgNJtdoSIgmlEoxiUuyDKUMOwq49YpYKlzqEVdoVg8Hn/MJ INlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334u2L5FtURUy8fEjMpXLkGsEBTdEjXFEDrOpWpk1BUl3WKu4NQ SHCXnh45H5Di+wCzSuMQcBAoQCw6xPI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwsDm98Fo/Lxn2pqvmbPDeCcRU9GkrOkMtRMQ+XzbMEzsvNQaz3hvqfGKgbK0FvxP2VFSZ2g== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:6f1a:: with SMTP id g26mr27024736qtv.121.1591697109275; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 70sm9392604qkk.10.2020.06.09.03.05.07 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49h5Ml035Pz1gFq for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 06:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 06:05:03 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200609060503.00005548@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <7dd4776b-4326-fa9c-cd2f-2b59ca4e8e50@freenetMail.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/FfqyPxb759vSKXCOJo_jctI"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49h5Mp6mtBz4Bdb X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=e0ySlBC+; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.75 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.020]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.36)[0.359]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 10:05:11 -0000 --Sig_/FfqyPxb759vSKXCOJo_jctI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 21:21:05 -0500, Valeri Galtsev commented: >> On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:56 PM, Wesley wrote: >>=20 >> May I ask a question, is it possible for freeBSD community to >> develop a nice GUI like Mac OSX? current opensource desktop like KDE >> is not behaving as well as OSX in my opinion.=20 > >This nice GUI like MacOS=E2=80=99s is not necessarily nice in everybody=E2= =80=99s >opinion. I for one would prefer Mate Desktop. There are several >different DEs (Desktop Environments) which I may not like as I didn=E2=80= =99t >blend into iPad generation, but that may be considered quite >comparable to MacOS=E2=80=99s one. Still, compared to MS Widows MacOS's is >nicer (my subjective opinion), yet still there is one thing about both >of them: you can not choose =E2=80=9Cdock area=E2=80=9D on left, on right = (speaking >about MS Windows), and you can not remove Apple top bar (=E2=80=9Ctop is >reserved for mighty Apple=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D). So, Xwindow based DEs cover = much wider >spectrum of tastes IMHO.=20 > >But if there is something specific you are after, you can try to >describe it, and I bet with so many Experts on this list, you can hear >viable advise. > >Valeri > >> Thanks. >>=20 >> Valeri Galtsev wrote: =20 >>> MacOS departs farther and farther away from BSD=E2=80=A6 so some time a= go I >>> scratched MacOS from my list of =E2=80=9CUNIXes=E2=80=9D. Administering= server on >>> MacOS became unbearable for me. I still tell all Mac laptop owners: >>> the beauty of MacOS is that you have nice GUI, and UNIX under the >>> hood. =20 Valeri, are you sure about that 'docking on left' statement. I have read several articles on exactly how to do it in Win 10. I am not sure about older versions though. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/FfqyPxb759vSKXCOJo_jctI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7fXtEACgkQOHMGOIfe xWQwkQgAqd7PdYsWXULgWmRLUzL6DlcDpagB+OuoZe+fIsiP5YCcZnaM2Cflrnj7 8eStaYJlOuiE3H27cSeYEIz6955a2G8T4H8NJHlyokdgFaljyaychPwsKk1zeGW0 2CUEhd4kM54kgcMulOTjP+NmNJcCS+wmR3zkywgvpbuGAX12GqY9DjlL9BIpo6IC Kffy9loBk2ifBbXxK6EGtHHM7mgVeQfrxOc/6B8GvkF24p6gxyPrcSHx1M8DupkE 3tEazqggrM7V5KqGE/dSB2yq/leBrMRufyxfyWTRrCtzSOvvIVHuw4+zlp2kvdlW 87Xty0ndfjDdY6e4NsC8eD+AgakXtw== =Z/AF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/FfqyPxb759vSKXCOJo_jctI-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 11:54:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400EA329964 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:54:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@osfux.nl) Received: from vm1982.osfux.nl (vm1982.osfux.nl [IPv6:2a03:5500:1724:55:79:99:187:212]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49h7nZ2lXNz4PXF for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:54:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@osfux.nl) Received: from vm1982.osfux.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vm1982.osfux.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023692019D; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:53:57 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none shortcircuit=no X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 Received: from [192.168.9.195] (unknown [95.174.67.156]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by vm1982.osfux.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:53:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: iscsi + restoring zfs snapshot To: David Christensen , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <0ead1643-0fa3-3a89-2d2b-9086a46af6f6@osfux.nl> <0027cc2b-124f-bef3-f1aa-5c50a1c819b1@osfux.nl> <7eb27fff-7fa8-48f1-c17b-d412300ed7e5@holgerdanske.com> From: Ruben Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:53:53 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7eb27fff-7fa8-48f1-c17b-d412300ed7e5@holgerdanske.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49h7nZ2lXNz4PXF X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.86 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[osfux.nl:s=default]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[osfux.nl:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[osfux.nl,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.84)[-0.839]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8315, ipnet:2a03:5500::/31, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:54:12 -0000 Hi David, As it turns out, the problem was with my configuration of iscsi. Somehow the mapping (/dev/sd*) on the linux clients was altered; I was constantly accessing a wrong target. Ill be refining my ctl.conf to prevent this from happening in the future. Thanks again for your feedback (I didn't know about "cmp" for instance :) )! Kind regards, Ruben On 4/17/20 11:53 PM, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-04-17 06:06, Ruben via freebsd-questions wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Still having trouble understanding this... >> >> Any pointers? >> >> Regards, >> >> Ruben >> >> On 4/12/20 11:10 AM, Ruben via freebsd-questions wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have a couple of linux clients that mount an iscsi target provided >>> by a zfs filesystem on a FreeBSD host. > > Looking below, I infer that you created the pool with: > > # zfs create -V 30g data/Docker/torrent > > >>> Yesterday I messed things up and I am trying to restore a snapshot to >>> revert the changes. >>> >>> I seem to be able to do so, but since the result is somewhat >>> unexepected I'm probably going the wrong way about it.  The strange >>> thing is that the snapshot restored from 2 weeks ago contains changes >>> from last night :S > > See my comments "It is unclear ...", below. > > >>> This is the FS: > > I assume you mean "volume". > > >>> zfs get all data/Docker/torrent >>> NAME                 PROPERTY VALUE                  SOURCE >>> data/Docker/torrent  type volume                 - >>> data/Docker/torrent  creation              Sun Dec  1 21:04 2019  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  used 56.8G                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  available 93.0G                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  referenced 19.7G                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  compressratio 1.00x                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  reservation none                   default >>> data/Docker/torrent  volsize 30G                    local >>> data/Docker/torrent  volblocksize 8K                     default >>> data/Docker/torrent  checksum on                     default >>> data/Docker/torrent  compression off                    default >>> data/Docker/torrent  readonly off                    default >>> data/Docker/torrent  createtxg 22810439               - >>> data/Docker/torrent  copies 1                      default >>> data/Docker/torrent  refreservation 30.9G                  local >>> data/Docker/torrent  guid 15050313927458195147   - >>> data/Docker/torrent  primarycache all                    default >>> data/Docker/torrent  secondarycache all                    default >>> data/Docker/torrent  usedbysnapshots 6.12G                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  usedbydataset 19.7G                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  usedbychildren 0                      - >>> data/Docker/torrent  usedbyrefreservation 30.9G                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  logbias latency                default >>> data/Docker/torrent  dedup off                    default >>> data/Docker/torrent mlslabel                                     - >>> data/Docker/torrent  sync standard               default >>> data/Docker/torrent  refcompressratio 1.00x                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  written 17.1K                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  logicalused 12.1G                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  logicalreferenced 9.25G                  - >>> data/Docker/torrent  volmode dev                    local >>> data/Docker/torrent  snapshot_limit none                   default >>> data/Docker/torrent  snapshot_count none                   default >>> data/Docker/torrent  redundant_metadata all                    default > > That looks okay. > > > I find the output of 'zfs get all ...' easier to read if I pipe the > output to sort(1). > > >>> These are its snapshots: >>> >>> zfs list -t snapshot -r data/Docker/torrent >>> NAME                                           USED  AVAIL REFER >>> MOUNTPOINT >>> data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-15_09.05.00--90d   677M      - 6.30G  - >>> data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-22_09.05.00--90d   783M      - 6.57G  - >>> data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-29_09.05.00--90d   798M      - 6.65G  - >>> data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-07_09.05.00--90d   693M      - 8.71G  - >>> data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-14_09.05.00--90d   684M      - 11.2G  - >>> data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-21_09.05.00--90d   611M      - 13.9G  - >>> data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-28_09.05.00--90d   864M      - 18.1G  - >>> data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d  17.1K      - 19.7G  - >>> [root@gneisenau:/usr/home/fux]# > > That looks okay. > > >>> This is my restore attempt: >>> >>> zfs send data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-14_09.05.00--90d | zfs receive >>> data/restoredfromsnapshot > > I normally do full replication. > > >>> If I unmount the FS from the client, and export this new FS instead as: >>> >>>      lun 3 { >>>          path /dev/zvol/data/restoredfromsnapshot >>>          size 30G >>>      } > > I assume the above is in /etc/ctl.conf. > > >>> , restart ctld,  mount that on the same linux client (but with the >>> "ro" option): >>> >>> /dev/sdd on /mnt/restored_data type ext4 (ro,noatime,stripe=256,_netdev) >>> >>> it contains : >>> >>> root@torrent:/mnt/restored_data# ls -laht >>> total 44K >>> drwxr-xr-x  5 root root 4.0K Apr 12 10:23 .. >>> drwx--x--x 14 root root 4.0K Apr 11 21:06 docker >>> drwxrwxr-x  8 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 . >>> drwxr-xr-x  3 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 deluge_config >>> drwxr-xr-x  3 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 docker_volumes >>> drwxr-xr-x  2 root root 4.0K May 21  2019 downloads >>> drwxr-xr-x  2 root root 4.0K May 21  2019 sickrage >>> drwx------  2 root root  16K May 21  2019 lost+found >>> root@torrent:/mnt/restored_data# >>> >>> changes from way after 2020-03-14 , including those from last night . >>> >>> Huh? I'm using zfSnap for creating the snapshots, like this: >>> >>> /usr/local/sbin/zfSnap -s -z -a 90d -r data/Docker >>> >>> My first attempt to rollback yesterday's changes involved using the >>> rollback option ( zfs rollback -r >>> data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d ) but that did not work >>> either (yesterday's changes were not reverted). > > It is unclear if your steps were complete or in a proper order. Services > must be stopped before the restore and re-started after the restore.  I > do not see any use of the ZFS "readonly" property.  I see verification > at the very end, but not verification immediately after the restore. > > > I would proceed as follows: > > 1.  Disconnect, stop, etc., all services on FreeBSD and Linux that > access the volume. > > 2.  Destroy the failed restore volume. > > 3.  Enable the ZFS "readonly" property on the volume. > > 4.  Scrub the pool containing the volume. > > 5.  Do a ZFS rollback on the volume, as before: > > # zfs rollback -r data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d > > 6.  Figure out how to mount the live volume read-only and how to mount > the snapshot (which will be read-only by definition).  Verify they are > identical with cmp(1). > > 7.  Disable the ZFS "readonly" property on the volume. > > 8.  Enable services, as required, on FreeBSD. > > 9.  Mount the volume on Linux.  Run fsck(8). > > 10. Enable services on Linux. > > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 12:36:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E6E32BA77 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:36:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49h8kL0ybwz4VSg for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:36:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B422D5F6; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 08:36:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ZtGKZM9CBpF; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 08:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9CDC2D5E8; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 08:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 08:36:23 -0400 Message-ID: <3191bd8bd81b2ce1b17e2f4bb080d010.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 08:36:23 -0400 Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd From: "James B. Byrne" To: "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: "Wesley" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49h8kL0ybwz4VSg X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.50 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.79)[-0.791]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.014]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 12:36:26 -0000 On Mon, June 8, 2020 22:35, Kevin P. Neal wrote: > > Remember that Apple, Microsoft, and the major FOSS desktop environments > have had two or more decades to get to what they are now. It's much less > work to join a project and try to improve it from within. Like Gnome3 ;> -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 13:28:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F99532D002 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:28:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from malaizhichun@tom.com) Received: from smtp.tom.com (smtprz14.163.net [106.3.154.247]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.163.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49h9tK5Zf7z4Zfm for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:28:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from malaizhichun@tom.com) Received: from my-app02.tom.com (my-app02.tom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freemail02.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57BA0B00D37 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:28:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from my-app02.tom.com (HELO smtp.tom.com) ([127.0.0.1]) by my-app02 (TOM SMTP Server) with SMTP ID -301671257 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 21:28:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from antispam2.tom.com (unknown [172.25.16.56]) by freemail02.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BB3B00D33 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:28:16 +0800 (CST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=tom.com; s=201807; t=1591709298; bh=3T133YWhmvjtOzJk2sDmTNfSACCUyY6azOFZ8dPYIJg=; h=Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Date:From; b=Ess2b0NUQ3wg+pcU0Cg+f1HrjVhJe9uZCWMG7XmOMqVcCfhzfB0SHSbNsjy0q8PKl Bel5dNL+ZYR0R11lOpHLOV7JCjJTLopgKX0i1euo/cftuCkW2m9Ym4aGqMkPQ+zdo+ 421qrkFNL1S6iEIyEQ2pi1oqpT9+KDyUFUBRcQx8= Received: from antispam2.tom.com (antispam2.tom.com [127.0.0.1]) by antispam2.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A92368148B for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:28:16 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at antispam2.tom.com Received: from antispam2.tom.com ([127.0.0.1]) by antispam2.tom.com (antispam2.tom.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SqHGbQRh7ypD for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:28:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from legion (unknown [118.76.182.64]) by antispam2.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E3DA780585 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:28:12 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: Subject: I run ArchLinux and never look back From: kindu smith Reply-To: malaizhichun@tom.com To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 21:28:12 +0800 Organization: malaizhichun User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49h9tK5Zf7z4Zfm X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tom.com header.s=201807 header.b=Ess2b0NU; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=tom.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of malaizhichun@tom.com designates 106.3.154.247 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=malaizhichun@tom.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.32 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[malaizhichun@tom.com]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[tom.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:106.3.154.0/24]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RBL_MAILSPIKE_WORST(2.00)[106.3.154.247:from]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tom.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[tom.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[tom.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:4808, ipnet:106.3.152.0/21, country:CN]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[118.76.182.64:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[tom.com:s=201807]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[tom.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.34)[0.336]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/mixed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[tom.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.997]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.985]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[106.3.154.247:from]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 13:28:50 -0000 archlinux is the only Unix-like operating system that I run on my laptop. The reason I chose archlinux is because First of all, it is a rolling release, so everything is up-to-date, gcc10.1.0, clang10, gnome3.36.2, kernel 5.7.1. So there is nothing to stop my love of archlinux.although I don=E2=80=99t know how to keep it up t= o date , But it=E2=80=99s the latest Secondly, it drives all my hardware, including sound card, nvidia graphics card, wireless network card, screen brightness and touchpad. Third, its package manager pacman is very powerful and rock-solid. Unlike debian's apt and dpkg, it needs to handle a lot of dependencies, and onlyone pacman can handle all. Fourth, it uses systemd, so it starts quickly. The inspiration for systemd is based on maccos launchd, which is even better than it. And there is no need to buy Apple's expensive hardware, it is plug-and- play, such as usb drive inserted into the notebook can be quickly recognized. I don't care if it violates the unix philosophy, because who cares. Fifth, it is highly customizable, you can install xfce, gnome, kde and other desktops, unlike ubuntu, which only contains gnome by default. And it can set up its own partition, only in my system is divided several partitions/, /boot ,Swap, /home , and always stable, there is no useless partition like ubuntu. devtmpfs 8114488 0 8114488 0% /dev tmpfs 8133452 424008 7709444 6% /dev/shm tmpfs 8133452 10240 8123212 1% /run tmpfs 8133452 0 8133452 0% /sys/fs/cgroup /dev/nvme0n1p2 212600300 39263488 162467668 20% / tmpfs 8133452 16 8133436 1% /tmp /dev/sda1 1921802500 112952664 1711157776 7% /home /dev/nvme0n1p1 1046512 102208 944304 10% /boot tmpfs 1626688 20 1626668 1% /run/user/120 tmpfs 1626688 32 1626656 1% /run/user/1002 tmpfs 1626688 0 1626688 0% /run/user/0 Sixth, it is stable, as stable as debian and freebsd. Seventh, it exists a wiki. Although I don=E2=80=99t understand what it=E2= =80=99s talking about most of the time, it provides a way to solve problems. Eighth, it also has a community-based source code package, AUR. Unlike freebsd's concentration, it is more decentralized, but it solves many of my problems. Ninth, it is small, and there are not so many useless dependency packages installed, that no taking up a lot of disk space. Tenth, it is based on X86, of course, it can also drive the server, but few people try. Because it is only based on X86, it made my notebook a good experience. Of course, I also run freebsd in my oracle VM virtualbox, freebsd is also my favorite operating system, its structure is even better, but it is not available. The touchpad, nvidia graphics card, and wireless network card are not recognized, and the screen cannot adjust the brightness. In addition, its startup code feels back to the 90s. I think archlinux's ok startup is more fascinating. It made me realize that I was running a stable unix system, not a mess of code. I also don't like gnu's grub, freebsd's btx bootloader seems better. I have also tried ghostbsd. Although sysctl hw.acpi can be set to adjust the screen brightness, it is not as ready to use as archlinux. I mean, compared to archlinux, the structure of freebsd seems to be better, but it is not as good as archlinux. I will continue to run archlinux on my physical machine, and only learn freebsd in the virtual machine. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 13:45:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226C232DA5B for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:45:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hBGC3wfGz4cZ7 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:45:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369EE2D7AD; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:45:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eBe1I5Nzl6rI; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 31A892D7A2; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:45:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:45:36 -0400 Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd From: "James B. Byrne" To: "Polytropon" Cc: "Wesley" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hBGC3wfGz4cZ7 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.015]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.924]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 13:45:40 -0000 On Mon, June 8, 2020 22:47, Polytropon wrote: > > On FreeBSD, there has been an attempt to create a native (!) > desktop environment called Lumina. I don't know if it's still > there... > I am not sure that this is the same thing you refer to but: Lumina Desktop 1.6.0 @beanpole135 beanpole135 released this Jan 31, 2020 32 commits to master since this release -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 13:50:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2806B32DC5C for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:50:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at51-3.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at51-3.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.141]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hBMF2x6cz4csL for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:50:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at51.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jieda-000650-Nh for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:49:58 +0200 Received: from x61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id p1py2200q4YLlkt0B1pya6; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:49:58 +0200 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=C3-43mxuAAAA:8 a=2sJm9-o7CAAW5BMAWr0A:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=nEi0c0Os5uc-k8thHpHz:22 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:49:59 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: In-Reply-To: X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202006091549.59311.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hBMF2x6cz4csL X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.141 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.98)[0.975]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.06)[1.057]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.95)[0.954]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[62.179.121.141:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 13:50:02 -0000 Anno domini 2020 Tue, 9 Jun 09:45:36 -0400 James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions scripsit: >=20 > On Mon, June 8, 2020 22:47, Polytropon wrote: > > > > On FreeBSD, there has been an attempt to create a native (!) > > desktop environment called Lumina. I don't know if it's still > > there... > > > I am not sure that this is the same thing you refer to but: >=20 > Lumina Desktop 1.6.0 >=20 > @beanpole135 beanpole135 released this Jan 31, 2020 =B7 32 commits to mas= ter > since this release >=20 >=20 There is also TDE ( http://trinitydesktop.org ) - fork of KDE3, still under= active development and mantains a port for FreeBSD. Nik =2D-=20 Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing w= ith the NSA, CIA ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 14:01:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB7032E30C for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:01:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hBbw4TmYz4f4B for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:01:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id y5so22795435iob.12 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 07:01:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=256KmGm2Lzp9GY1vVTjZIHXoVV4n0THRm1A3vq7zfnY=; b=mM3NvTymptZPDWNfBs5sODeWwmYKT8BEiQjHinshlXSRMKGgT7CaSCilOVrUGunZAR c3XJVQG6IaJU5LU5ryZAEq/AuLlD9kmFF1TpCGvKgHTImwJmD5BWMRZR6f7eCEqCSwko 8muN45bGZs2lnT626Kt1FJQRsydLVPP8+ahUcc24SxQ95tqzjSeSeuOMwNLgIg4B2sY5 jVoGLQy6KveoYSiTzKB8ze9Spcn5uqPjyyH3iEq0QiGzaXyxK0A4q1iS9frjgo78bItU 1MJ1sgzcxW+WkmAzytvB5H30/0Iqn+3fMxTKQ+nu7mTk8okm4LvhddxQc+s1a/HhzUe8 0W9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=256KmGm2Lzp9GY1vVTjZIHXoVV4n0THRm1A3vq7zfnY=; b=H6igXYPuERYdarHKMXQSnjcvr3eeey5XQLkJq7Fkw7J1XM0DA+q0fsz/QTHCyrVOLv xuPseZKh4AxPUCz/gXplKbRne9eirQvXP6AQFs3mRrCklrHzKAY344N4BUaaxazlJoZY T0KP9UJZeK114ueJUb8uLuW48ReQj15oA+w6fMdnjGMl97OFffnPgIIY33EjXBfm9Bsu ggVQMFtqj/7vcrvaFmrv0ywS6M26wePt/ABcjAAxd1dmPRm70GVIf68hVgvercVlEMar u5v+HQi2aXbJ+UeciRbD3KvjvAP68wqzFfpHcbs2WTXekXzEQieYXzv9myasFaal+KQK JiZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ydoIVv/ziqVOsD1t66kbUa7IKgA9aa8Q08ERdJnK5b+kOUo6d 3tixAIunp2MtMx+mYWlckBRSRQfUDUptfkt/kRbqDmwu X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxbdpIab0L+YVObF0JpdHLabwEDiVl8yIzARcO7g71UdCxaSyQwqm+CEP9kF895OzJN9e+oBspgi7OdWrO5E8E= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5915:: with SMTP id n21mr27249522iob.103.1591711259387; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 07:00:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:00:48 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: I run ArchLinux and never look back To: malaizhichun@tom.com Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hBbw4TmYz4f4B X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=mM3NvTym; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.80 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.026]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.23)[0.226]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29:from]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[tom.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:01:01 -0000 What does this have to do with FreeBSD except for some misconceptions about it and what it can do? On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:29 AM kindu smith wrote: > archlinux is the only Unix-like operating system that I run on my > laptop. The reason I chose archlinux is because > > First of all, it is a rolling release, so everything is up-to-date, > gcc10.1.0, clang10, gnome3.36.2, kernel 5.7.1. So there is nothing to > stop my love of archlinux.although I don=E2=80=99t know how to keep it up= to > date , But it=E2=80=99s the latest\ Not knowing how to update is a problem and I would consider that a minus. As to versions FreeBSD (via ports) has gcc 11, llvm/clang 11, gnome 3.28. So I have no idea why Linux people think we are so "slow" in keeping up with versions! > Secondly, it drives all my hardware, including sound card, nvidia > graphics card, wireless network card, screen brightness and touchpad. > My nVidia card works perfectly and always has using the nVidia driver from ports (worked on the first try with no special configs and contrary to some people's impression does have full support for wayland), I don't use wifi for security reasons but never heard any complaint about its support, screen brightness is not an issue on my desktop so never played with it same with touchpad but never heard any complaints about them on FreeBSD. > > Third, its package manager pacman is very powerful and rock-solid. > Unlike debian's apt and dpkg, it needs to handle a lot of dependencies, > and onlyone pacman can handle all. > I have had horrible experiences with binary only package installs no matter what OS so I always do source from ports and frankly not a single Linux distro I have tried does this well (gentoo tried and failed). > Fourth, it uses systemd, so it starts quickly. The inspiration for > systemd is based on maccos launchd, which is even better than it. And > there is no need to buy Apple's expensive hardware, it is plug-and- > play, such as usb drive inserted into the notebook can be quickly > recognized. I don't care if it violates the unix philosophy, because > who cares. > You should care if something does break the Unix philosophy because it makes it harder to integrate with other tools. The most powerful part of Unix is the ability to quickly whip up little scripts and other tool chains for one off non-trivial tasks. > Fifth, it is highly customizable, you can install xfce, gnome, kde and > other desktops, unlike ubuntu, which only contains gnome by default. > And it can set up its own partition, only in my system is divided > several partitions/, /boot ,Swap, /home , and always stable, there is > no useless partition like ubuntu. > Name a desktop that FreeBSD does not support right out ports (no hassles in setting up either) one advantage of doing it from ports is you can mix and match for example I use xfce but have the full default app catalog from both gnome and kde installed and they all work together just fine. Sixth, it is stable, as stable as debian and freebsd. > If it is just as stable as FreeBSD why not just use FreeBSD? > Seventh, it exists a wiki. Although I don=E2=80=99t understand what it=E2= =80=99s > talking about most of the time, it provides a way to solve problems. > If you don't understand the docs this is also an issue. The FreeBSD docs are in general much easier to follow than Linux ones I have found (they certainly assume less up front knowledge of areas that don't pertain to the item being documented). Also the FreeBSD docs (unlike most Linux ones) don't have all kinds of arcane examples and unneeded command line options in the tutorial sections (they are fully documented though whereas many Linux apps/concepts are not fully documented). > Eighth, it also has a community-based source code package, AUR. Unlike > freebsd's concentration, it is more decentralized, but it solves many > of my problems. > The centralization is not a bug, it is a feature! > Ninth, it is small, and there are not so many useless dependency > packages installed, that no taking up a lot of disk space. > Unless you know the source code requirements well how do you know if they are useless/unneeded or not? Of course, I also run freebsd in my oracle VM virtualbox, freebsd is > also my favorite operating system, its structure is even better, but it > is not available. The touchpad, nvidia graphics card, and wireless > network card are not recognized, and the screen cannot adjust the > brightness. In addition, its startup code feels back to the 90s. I > See above on the graphics issue you're just straight out wrong about what FreeBSD can and can not do. And why is the start up an issue? Once it is started why would you give a damn about the boot environment? > think archlinux's ok startup is more fascinating. It made me realize > that I was running a stable unix system, not a mess of code. I also > don't like gnu's grub, freebsd's btx bootloader seems better. > No one uses BTX any more!!!!! Try the more modern bootloader comes with 11 and 12. I mean, compared to archlinux, the structure of freebsd seems to be > better, but it is not as good as archlinux. I will continue to run > archlinux on my physical machine, and only learn freebsd in the virtual > machine. > Then you have learned FreeBSD wrong since all the issues you raise are solved ones. --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 14:41:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF4F32F5A5 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:41:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49hCW472KLz3VNy for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:41:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.225]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 684664E656 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:41:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Valeri Galtsev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 09:41:51 -0500 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200608051434.ca70e5c5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200608050415.GA92414@geeks.org> <7dd4776b-4326-fa9c-cd2f-2b59ca4e8e50@freenetMail.de> <20200609060503.00005548@seibercom.net> To: FreeBSD Mailing List In-Reply-To: <20200609060503.00005548@seibercom.net> Message-Id: <5A0FF055-38DE-4B83-999D-0D1649374076@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hCW472KLz3VNy X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:41:53 -0000 > On Jun 9, 2020, at 5:05 AM, Jerry wrote: >=20 > On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 21:21:05 -0500, Valeri Galtsev commented: >>> On Jun 8, 2020, at 8:56 PM, Wesley wrote: >>>=20 >>> May I ask a question, is it possible for freeBSD community to >>> develop a nice GUI like Mac OSX? current opensource desktop like KDE >>> is not behaving as well as OSX in my opinion.=20 >>=20 >> This nice GUI like MacOS=E2=80=99s is not necessarily nice in = everybody=E2=80=99s >> opinion. I for one would prefer Mate Desktop. There are several >> different DEs (Desktop Environments) which I may not like as I = didn=E2=80=99t >> blend into iPad generation, but that may be considered quite >> comparable to MacOS=E2=80=99s one. Still, compared to MS Widows = MacOS's is >> nicer (my subjective opinion), yet still there is one thing about = both >> of them: you can not choose =E2=80=9Cdock area=E2=80=9D on left, on = right (speaking >> about MS Windows), and you can not remove Apple top bar (=E2=80=9Ctop = is >> reserved for mighty Apple=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D). So, Xwindow based DEs = cover much wider >> spectrum of tastes IMHO.=20 >>=20 >> But if there is something specific you are after, you can try to >> describe it, and I bet with so many Experts on this list, you can = hear >> viable advise. >>=20 >> Valeri >>=20 >>> Thanks. >>>=20 >>> Valeri Galtsev wrote: =20 >>>> MacOS departs farther and farther away from BSD=E2=80=A6 so some = time ago I >>>> scratched MacOS from my list of =E2=80=9CUNIXes=E2=80=9D. = Administering server on >>>> MacOS became unbearable for me. I still tell all Mac laptop owners: >>>> the beauty of MacOS is that you have nice GUI, and UNIX under the >>>> hood. =20 >=20 > Valeri, are you sure about that 'docking on left' statement. I have > read several articles on exactly how to do it in Win 10. I am not sure > about older versions though. >=20 If it is possible, then I stand corrected. As one for whom MS Windows is = not the favorite system (Microsoft is the only system vendor I know who = tell you it is not safe to run their system without 3rd party software: = antivirus), I do give them credit, say, for having decently long = lifetime of system releases. And still, as sysadmin, I support all systems. Even more: all systems = suck, and thanks to that I have my job. Antivirus, well, it is logically flawed thinking. You can not enumerate = bad. You can do an opposite thing: enumerate good, and prohibit = everything else. Don=E2=80=99t get me started=E2=80=A6 Valeri > --=20 > Jerry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 14:44:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C466E32F85E for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:44:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic313-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic313-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hCYy0pvVz3Vkg for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:44:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: XmNEfVgVM1k30FfD1cR2baCjOYrSSgi47Nhbvtj9z0L8cb_Of7_CKj.WDLFAWNl k.S0_A94yPm9aHA7h27n8w4dt2d1iWyJzQ0pvFznMB6uaIgtDlsN1_LLSQRy.hoQM2PtIbKxF4fc CltFgp5gUyjd_Q1fupEWJzR.pjsDspcUc.dS37FG7aCbU3VesO8__ksgvw0Op5UQaOWKMT6OF8Co VpMZRiiJY8PmADE_7kE40EQbJgJclAbM9R6eY5FKScbTmZymquKnaNMVMgd1zuR88mjp8gzQM6uL u5B5CDiI9QVWgEyo0JlsdriM7BK87jZS7A_IF4ARTL93Uy3wpp0ljWr01V..wdiwlbFRqAZt14rA hXtNeZUc8SxRfXz1PlgOTtCDnXWaKGP_F74PbgXuU2vEjAjLhUsQM9kxlL6CWd__.OoCMlWC036o CBDg2R4_eef83EXQ79IYUnUQDXlTajmHaJzD11YsbB6KxKTr2CCYlVyCTKAwrY0n59v52ak4Bpcc wpqPVh8Y_K5bBtoFW9YtvAEexT5I0IAgtmVIhX7quVITmbuwlak9IPWVNOkCUoY266vIYdx87Pxr c0lYSv1gMCDNrENXkaT4a9c66To8eV_jpeTqzPkbZe5TsDCSKoJjaLRYaLOjXKGj.PDYGm4rleTQ h4mWUgbHD_MUq52cAN6EtTpZfyV3dN_1dTajlkKO1_ZOgvE9p_rNSaj3pifZ0AAnegUY6c5ceAud dzq0Mui7go7UkUEh_mCm6fO6.TRmjwM.MHi1kBO8T.qeaswZ7D4_3QH0GzBIhcbJC3o39WyozYuK 9z3G7yFgXmlLD4jEh59VUWuUOXdA.FQJxytQAPI1xeuwzXoGD0OcrCwIHMzBu5tHtLneU8_jjM6E fRghLoDQO_tdUSUzwA4mGizwwEtw.WfBTUJ0jy2G1uE7U6B44C5wFP6sTipeB8ZkHmdngs5UjyJw skLH3Wq9X0q0YN9r2L1CjMXyxL7XaeIUd9fGoNz3D5.ldXf70MB8kvKLp3iHbfQ1vPAAhH0MN9mk fyDOZNWnvr7J1t9MQYpzobb7CPxqtEYRXB5jtBTOpQ3MKZijYMGhGAdiQxjIvOxx7EumCo7wNrP9 w1I3LZStRuwTzGyoZ1SB0LDTc4EsZblREEZc4Litslw.6gE5ZCBnktACnwwsvKAahHmz237dsJnA yulpRs9N5cfqey88Xo0k8HCNXKX3oTU..WDBKyKD217uXucx5Mtd49WXL08kwacLUGt0jpfilB8q R_rQCpqdI_4dn8iU1yuTZV3sFLWo2HjcSYoS.5TRs15WlS1V1yUDURVv3Lv3uIdc5XdwrLAxLRbO qObFj6B_ijHfkUBltynGAvNhDlvzjVOWS0g7fBlYnRC7zJCtEmm7ov7ARhqJ_X5PMhmd1WOpGLHP qd4B5TcG.2UALZhruxlwq6w-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 14:44:20 +0000 Received: by smtp431.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 11582b3097e24d64f923187bcaeaa236; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:44:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:44:20 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: malaizhichun@tom.com Subject: Re: I run ArchLinux and never look back Message-ID: <20200609164420.1c156e87@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hCYy0pvVz3Vkg X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.55 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.90)[-0.896]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.017]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.028]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.187:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.187:from]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; HFILTER_URL_ONLY(0.88)[0.40140845070423]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[tom.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:44:22 -0000 Moved to https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat . https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2020-June/007403.html From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 15:04:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35762330029 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:04:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49hD1d2QC5z3XYC for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:04:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.225]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9BFA74E656; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:04:52 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:04:50 -0500 Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> To: Anatoli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hD1d2QC5z3XYC X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.83 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.32)[-0.316]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.54)[-0.536]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.58)[-0.580]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:04:54 -0000 > On Jun 8, 2020, at 11:38 PM, Anatoli wrote: >=20 > If you're talking about the allegations that Jason Wright planted > backdoors into OpenBSD for FBI, then you invented about 90% of the > story. >=20 > The story is about Gregory Perry's (a former technical consultant for > the FBI) allegations that Jason Wright (an ex-dev) and NETSEC (the > company he and some others worked for) accepted US government money to > put backdoors into OpenBSD's network stack, in particular the IPSEC > stack, around 2000-2001. >=20 > This information is public, was discussed multiple times and nothing > extraordinary resulted from it. >=20 > After the allegations went public, extensive audits were conducted > internally and externally and nothing serious or of intentional nature > was found by anyone. >=20 > For those interested, here are some links: > 1. A TL;DR version about the story by ArsTechnica: [1]; > 2. Theo De Raadt (founder of OpenBSD) mail disclosing the allegations > made privately to him: [2]; > 3. His follow-up email: [3]; > 4. A follow-up email from Gregory Perry (the one making allegations) > after his initial email was made public by Theo [4] > 5. Damien Miller (OpenSSH/OpenBSD) comments about feasibility of such > implantation, very insightful for those interested in technical > details (as the entire thread) [5]; > 6. All allegations denied by named participants: [6]; > 7. A follow-up to the story from the past year (2019), a FOIA request > to the FBI to disclose any involvement with OpenBSD: [7]. >=20 > If you're talking about this story, nothing new or interesting. If > you're talking about something else, then the burden of proof is on = the > one making the claim. So don't say "check that on your own". You're > making a public claim, provide the proof or be considered just a > FUD-spreader. >=20 >=20 > On the other hand, no software project, public or private, is immune = to > governments trying to insert backdoors, though Bruce Schneier believes > this would be just plain stupid: [8]. >=20 >> I too was considering OpenBSD the most secure operating system out >> there. Till the moment I've learned ..." >=20 > So even *if* we suppose that there were any backdoors planted in = OpenBSD > (which was never demonstrated by anyone publicly), do you have any > better alternative than OpenBSD? Some OS guaranteed to be free from > government backdoors? Any OS better suited for entire system audits = due > to its simplicity and a small, clean code base? Any OS with a better > secure development and peer review process? >=20 > If not, what's your point then? >=20 > [1]: = https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/openbsd-code-audit-= uncovers-bugs-but-no-evidence-of-backdoor/ > [2]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129236621626462&w=3D2 > [3]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129296046123471 > [4]: = https://www.csoonline.com/article/2136901/an-fbi-backdoor-in-openbsd-.html= > [5]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129237675106730&w=3D2 > [6]: = https://www.itworld.com/article/2744922/openbsd-fbi-allegations-denied-by-= named-participants.html > [7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D20489904 > [8]: = https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/did_the_fbi_pla.html >=20 Thanks for nice write-up. Now everyone who haven=E2=80=99t heard this = story (not everyone is as old as some of us), have it in meticulous = detail and unbiased presentation. So, they can make their own = independent judgement for themselves. Which is the most important, = thanks again! Valeri > On 8/6/20 12:44, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2020-06-08 09:25, Anatoli wrote: >>>> The most secure=E2=80=A6 if you dismiss the fact that one of the = developer (who wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was = simultaneously receiving payments from one of three letter agencies for = several years. >>>=20 >>> Rumors + FUD or do you have any proof? >>>=20 >>=20 >> When I heard that I checked, and receipt of payments was confirmed by = developer himself. That is my recollection, I am merely human whose = memory can not be perfect, check that on your own. This even if = confirmed as a fact, does not mean he left back doors or weak spots in = code. >>=20 >> The rest is for everyone: to do one's own home work: >>=20 >> 1. who don't care just dismiss what is said >>=20 >> 2. Who do care to verify if receipt of payments is the fact, just = verify on your own (I never think of myself to be considered the source = of absolute truth. Merely as a help to point into direction where who is = interested may find something helpful) >>=20 >> If one verifies the fact of payment(s), the decide for yourself: >>=20 >> A. Audit the code (I for one realize I will not be able to find fishy = spots in that sophisticated code, so this can not be my choice) >>=20 >> B. Accept that it is likely that good enough programmers did audit = code, hence there are no weak (or worse) spots in it >>=20 >> C. Accept that what top programmer wrote is not that easy to audit, = and just shy away from what may (just merely may) be not quite kosher. = If you care, of course. >>=20 >>=20 >> And again, do your own thinking, this may, just merely may help = someone. >>=20 >>=20 >> Valeri >>=20 >>> On 8/6/20 10:26, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Jun 7, 2020, at 11:26 PM, Anatoli wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> IMO >>>>>=20 >>>>> * FreeBSD: servers (performance, stability, relative security, = zfs), >>>>> competes directly with Linux >>>>>=20 >>>>> * OpenBSD: routers/firewalls, desktops (the most secure OS >>>>=20 >>>> The most secure=E2=80=A6 if you dismiss the fact that one of the = developer (who wrote network stack if my memory serves me) was = simultaneously receiving payments from one of three letter agencies for = several years. >>>>=20 >>>> Valeri >>>>=20 >>>>> and a really >>>>> good desktop, but its absence of server-class performance is its >>>>> weakest side + no zfs (just ffs2) and limited virtualization (no = SMP) >>>>> so not suitable for any serious server load where absolute = security is >>>>> not a must). The king in its niche (paranoid security) >>>>>=20 >>>>> * NetBSD: toasters & freezers (runs on anything, otherwise not = sure >>>>> what's the point :), competes with FreeBSD and Linux (and Linux = now >>>>> supports more archs/platforms than Net). IMO no clear vision and = thus >>>>> attracts too little resources both human and economic. IMO = midterm not >>>>> much hope for survival, same as DFly and smaller BSDs. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I believe that OS development is an economy of scale (doing things = more >>>>> efficiently or having other advantaged with increasing size) with = a >>>>> tendency for a monopoly in the same niche. >>>>>=20 >>>>> There are some features that the larger players establish as a >>>>> commodity, but that are very time-intensive and complex to develop = (e.g. >>>>> virtualization, wifi ac and now ax). So what Linux implemented = more than >>>>> a decade ago, the BSDs are just catching up now. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Linux world had 2 "obstacles" to its almost flawless growth = recently >>>>> (systemd and a ZFS alternative). Now that the things have almost = settled >>>>> up, if they don't commit any more serious errors I don't see how = the >>>>> BSDs (except OpenBSD as it's not a direct competitor) could = compete with >>>>> it in the long term. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Now with ZoL/OpenZFS the long-term future even for FreeBSD is not = that >>>>> clear (and the recent iX decisions [1] [2] are a clear sign). >>>>>=20 >>>>> [1] = https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/truenas-isnt-abandoning-bsd-but-it= -is-adopting-linux/ >>>>> [2] https://www.truenas.com/TrueOS-Discontinuation/ >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 7/6/20 22:35, Wesley wrote: >>>>>> greetings, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> There were freebsd and netbsd (maybe others?) in BSD world. >>>>>> What points did they focus by design? >>>>>> what are their use scenes then? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thank you. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>>>>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>>>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>>>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>>>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 16:01:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF434331826 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:01:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hFHK5r1tz3fHC for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:01:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2b.google.com with SMTP id x16so4625889qvr.3 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:01:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=MSvQPt++scRCMfYflHnW4/eobAHmd6VLpMWjs7mI+Qw=; b=qjqLiI9hcNUlqAi6uzAistGSmKHvID6pjPfuG/rLeCd67CDN/aj08KHnCdXCJHvGuG fowexHqXyF8qdXy4zm1d7n6RCkpkILCQxZ769rvId4V3X9ocZrBADKbjLIyDo8Utz2xJ b79tLHGEwwu+58wD91ElnWUL8ZbRhxFZX7M+g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=MSvQPt++scRCMfYflHnW4/eobAHmd6VLpMWjs7mI+Qw=; b=pCG+92ctWz/LPQqLv9V8HLzpbtEtGcF9k4lRvYa258nzQ5nguJ39oPPWaPaE4q9ezb gIifPmvPzVw+ymdTczFgL+na6drf0EdQLhiKEW3gjnzrP6uvlDHxfjUWYcsAWIK5DtK0 d85cAX9r8vdgoAWO4bSOWidGHkULJIe6kIkjSSVNTguA0uO5VX+aBLlML2rASPhCgYg+ YL2NmXAWR2xIgrjmfLbd852SjszdxI0WQCjymzUaWKhef9nLLvvG+Yxr8bOWoGANxsot Ko5Ut9VO8p08eRFTfTNmhyYZlev/cB49DGJa0r244/FTWfqmMpYz5dGtmTSfDoGu+s8o PoiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530TIVb8U0MI4WHNSsFzG5rSfLqU11UquUABYXcBBAAcFpCe1/lw fzbO/yyGdHC79tKYoqec8+fW/sfbfuU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyt7+FcOKZW65sGWEo0wT8pr7Z2eps2354ssYMd2iGmW+4sos5vqmBE4RrYXVF/Q4p03cPi5g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:4e7:: with SMTP id cl7mr4552902qvb.215.1591718508433; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b53sm10920328qtc.65.2020.06.09.09.01.46 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49hFHD5pGJz1gXm for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:01:36 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/ml4hrrkY0yu0BIT871xVF1E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hFHK5r1tz3fHC X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=qjqLiI9h; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.63 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.890]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.022]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.14)[0.143]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2b:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 16:01:50 -0000 --Sig_/ml4hrrkY0yu0BIT871xVF1E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:04:50 -0500, Valeri Galtsev commented: > [1]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/openbsd-code-= audit-uncovers-bugs-but-no-evidence-of-backdoor/ > [2]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129236621626462&w=3D2 > [3]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129296046123471 > [4]: https://www.csoonline.com/article/2136901/an-fbi-backdoor-in-openbsd= -.html > [5]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129237675106730&w=3D2 > [6]: https://www.itworld.com/article/2744922/openbsd-fbi-allegations-deni= ed-by-named-participants.html > [7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D20489904 > [8]: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/did_the_fbi_pla.html Most of those URLs are +/- 10 years old. That is roughly equivalent to the MESOZOIC period in computer years. --=20 Gerard --Sig_/ml4hrrkY0yu0BIT871xVF1E Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7fsmEACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTG8wf/ZVt8de5XYbXIQg4tptf7blZ3Dda9ECdA7BlRLLkoV0AOT2BJy50/QGYb v9gnCPzmyna6USXoEESY9HZJTIa3TbDsU55UGe8KKVEzPqbM0QUKLitze8LFfk1E ZJJThmwI6iGjz3gIcO1g0wlDNwUz/+35Mr2AQYpbbw0v+a1oX/yECXvzzb6uZxUN 7l+QBSEvKSuL6NEBt50KJJ0iQPIpvgPiTQFLk2gGIluA3rJUh0QdTHnuEiIYjn0T xe26wDxGsPrOQ2/E9KWq1NOTmKYCmlWmwHDfiLM1Rgwt6LNnjr8DoVeULX5LWCx4 5qGXrHwLFecA+yDlkDQ21GsznBtxpQ== =nY4o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/ml4hrrkY0yu0BIT871xVF1E-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 16:04:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3213633183F for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:04:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49hFLp0drsz3g0Q for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:04:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [128.135.4.189] (unknown [128.135.4.189]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7EC2A4E69A for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:04:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Valeri Galtsev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:04:49 -0500 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> Message-Id: <2F62B126-FC11-4115-973D-8A094A3B7B27@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hFLp0drsz3g0Q X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 16:04:50 -0000 > On Jun 9, 2020, at 11:01 AM, Jerry wrote: >=20 > On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:04:50 -0500, Valeri Galtsev commented: >=20 >> [1]: = https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/openbsd-code-audit-= uncovers-bugs-but-no-evidence-of-backdoor/ >> [2]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129236621626462&w=3D2 >> [3]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129296046123471 >> [4]: = https://www.csoonline.com/article/2136901/an-fbi-backdoor-in-openbsd-.html= >> [5]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129237675106730&w=3D2 >> [6]: = https://www.itworld.com/article/2744922/openbsd-fbi-allegations-denied-by-= named-participants.html >> [7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D20489904 >> [8]: = https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/did_the_fbi_pla.html >=20 Those are not the references I gave, I can not take credit for those. Did you do it on purpose to confuse everybody who said what? Valeri > Most of those URLs are +/- 10 years old. That is roughly equivalent to > the MESOZOIC period in computer years. >=20 > --=20 > Gerard >=20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 16:14:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B566331F05 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:14:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49hFYr3fsDz3yS1 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 16:14:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [128.135.4.189] (unknown [128.135.4.189]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1C44D4E656 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:14:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Valeri Galtsev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:14:23 -0500 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> To: FreeBSD Mailing List In-Reply-To: <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> Message-Id: <8AAB0640-59AA-4DB1-AED2-205F891375CF@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hFYr3fsDz3yS1 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 16:14:24 -0000 > On Jun 9, 2020, at 11:01 AM, Jerry wrote: >=20 >=20 >> [1]: = https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/openbsd-code-audit-= uncovers-bugs-but-no-evidence-of-backdoor/ >> [2]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129236621626462&w=3D2 >> [3]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129296046123471 >> [4]: = https://www.csoonline.com/article/2136901/an-fbi-backdoor-in-openbsd-.html= >> [5]: https://marc.info/?l=3Dopenbsd-tech&m=3D129237675106730&w=3D2 >> [6]: = https://www.itworld.com/article/2744922/openbsd-fbi-allegations-denied-by-= named-participants.html >> [7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D20489904 >> [8]: = https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/did_the_fbi_pla.html >=20 > Most of those URLs are +/- 10 years old. That is roughly equivalent to > the MESOZOIC period in computer years. >=20 Jerry, I have only one thing to say: those who don=E2=80=99t know the = history are doomed to repeat it. But I know the worst lesson of the = history is: people never learn lessons of the history. Also, as you confused everyone about who presented these references I am = giving appropriate credit: Anatoli: me@anatoli.ws Please, read whole his post found earlier in this thread, it is precise, = detailed, and instructive. Valeri > --=20 > Gerard >=20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 18:39:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AAE3339041 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 18:39:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hJmr28z0z4M1m for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 18:39:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id c17so26346637lji.11 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:39:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=khvPeiKdg8RZRwt/JiJkJp4aKLExaavxuLtRsLfNLMI=; b=hF+T2EtkO6ZBp64fa7IdyBw1lVFe7EpKisbfgzR9eG6gYjXY8+IkP7iX7IDkbm7qy8 hWwqktEOitaqsfplWQ6XrsSuqdpgvTTh4c+rkrUSBxQd9HsH4iknjctTLhAv6VpnXwnf YRortVliT4uate87sWhy+zYOaNT5h8RJ8OBJCWyD8pq5LmQDo/d3ZyRoFlBTQccnXZ6A nseyJhHdUWaqhvbY27TsXJG1az0++vHrKHPrez0e9AhvtQs75cP5WxKaC3NpPeS/nzhi AgEKDreEF3uTHePomxHQ/j96s/3PPpfw+kOYynpY4ziOStOU3sy9B/aBK/gq/H4EdPjd KVTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=khvPeiKdg8RZRwt/JiJkJp4aKLExaavxuLtRsLfNLMI=; b=SfHLpRB8IkMTutYck+BS1M8i9JQenrnE/KvQmg8K+oPbEtUj/LjXtisxSD04gN9TCz Hd79s8pgw0qQw3joHqqUhDNdY4VqT5MdDe69dy1LwFgbXJ7dMijQ2PBdukFDLaTOjuRn OhI9HsXC3hL8p7ckHoC0qumXUopl2p3Z7ParefCwH6fYe4bTNC1gzS+ObVsNGiVJMcX6 k6OKGgsgugii2EQkmMEqxbKknXtdb8OnsBlgELu5vhkUzYGUR1T8lN9xkMtnL0bQic2h r41J+ZQlD/h/XeNapzH8ir86CA1+x5/8dkyOyLbqQ3c6TJBZdj+TK/cdgIrxMl/CpKUE 74Yw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531J3nfTxLE73aQhvV/dBXRd0deqzetPZ7h7vVA2C33ljHHmx2if W9jgTi2B1ljtlHJq0647DHyYrgTWJcDxld/tmEUieLxK X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynTGSsOsT364/kTnBoFO0CImbNAIpZImd68QLppZ9hqbPORbsEos7tGOAA72ZF4seFa80rfmrtRqMjvcOQlNE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1126:: with SMTP id e6mr14380480ljo.123.1591727946217; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:39:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200608152724.00002f13@seibercom.net> References: <20200608152724.00002f13@seibercom.net> From: Donald Wilde Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:39:05 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Optane Memory To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hJmr28z0z4M1m X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 18:39:08 -0000 On 6/8/20, Jerry wrote: > I am seriously thinking about purchasing another PC to play around > with. My question is does FreeBSD support Intel's Optane Memory? It > seems like it needs an Intel driver to work, or at least it does on a > Window's machine. I have only been looking into the potential speed > increases and not all of the other technical details. > > I already purchased one PC recently that FreeBSD 12.x will not work on, > , and I don't > want to be bit in the ass a second time. > I'd like to know this too. In-memory-space Optane should only be a matter of supportin gthe timings of Optane and its write cycle, which is much like FLASH. Another question would be about Optane-based accelerator/caching boards that Intel has been selling. I haven't worked for Intel for several years now, so I do not know if these are still current products but it seems so from a cursory search. The caching products alone should really speed up web and network servers, so IMHO this is a must-have for FreeBSD. -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 18:52:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDAE033972D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 18:52:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hK3z6F8Kz4NDk for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 18:52:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id c17so26396580lji.11 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:52:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=LtI7uKGnJCiAW6Yr+OonOohfrAA+3bO+vParPsVsiSs=; b=B7m5JxZZZSNnGkVthMzksWGnVxH1BodrPUsTzxw4sDT7iUoXoGj242xk3wJpUSbuw9 HIbT1UDf8dn162RWAc9VBOhJed6KM+P7zvmD1GRwPXI8wH7lWnfE4GT1DH2Gr1In9oW6 AslwnyQ2u3DKtlk8+WW0YzSikusD3KTHG2D3c3/HWUNhQbEAIy6glIjNRasW8sETnHYu WQbsss9PALwPxqLCBV0PXljHSYuthL1+qgAav3VF3Fjiv5Wy131kxu0zmAj1T6xrL8EZ eWRsWC0ma1aHSsltTpsaQA1iGKGbv+kQelHjHUxzJBoQ/h/qBacZVliYCx5EWE2jsBSq 6HWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=LtI7uKGnJCiAW6Yr+OonOohfrAA+3bO+vParPsVsiSs=; b=GAv4+DE+7PC7a1YlnPUMeHj4/Znh3YAkO3uZ9sr7qOv07JodC7VU2C2CjlP6Go4sPn sP6qEMRSy0eWzdJe5SW25zYw7o31uUShIFXDO40s3qgoMzvanBr38+5kWwk9GxNleT/a aRU2nr58orzEowNAPan6LFGDksn6LBCsJv3Sg0Ccx5aD9ZW7uj6TWN+MpQFpd8rLFbnr gD1L6PdCvneyPKbrUbP1aDNt4Icer10Y3zRvZQwRcVDXwtI9qKEXi0uv2Y/qY6ENDjYT R719EdVWI7UUBqQl1jh2Zw/9SaPdvHux4jo7OMzTspKl5IXCwEdA/BAXjoQN2qHgfIe+ 4O3w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5326pk7jIbhqZrrzoC+tIxedWJ7iKPT3HjtBQGzV2UEBBrPK9yjA j9G8hGwEArE9DDgTkg6s0RTvbf1CHBRcEtpaq7yAF+Vp X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtnsgjitY6JHdve2KN5T4gmWJuN8uBWu4EbxwE7JTMYZAV74zZAhB4BMQT72r1xbNBouRcxp0rvMlpGdw4JOc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8e85:: with SMTP id z5mr10404430ljk.330.1591728733638; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:52:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <20200608152724.00002f13@seibercom.net> From: Donald Wilde Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 11:52:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Optane Memory To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hK3z6F8Kz4NDk X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=B7m5JxZZ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.20 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.38)[-0.382]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.36)[-0.355]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.54)[0.541]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::234:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 18:52:17 -0000 On 6/9/20, Donald Wilde wrote: > On 6/8/20, Jerry wrote: >> I am seriously thinking about purchasing another PC to play around >> with. My question is does FreeBSD support Intel's Optane Memory? [snip] >> > I'd like to know this too. In-memory-space Optane should only be a > matter of supportin gthe timings of Optane and its write cycle, which > is much like FLASH. Another question would be about Optane-based > accelerator/caching boards that Intel has been selling. > > I haven't worked for Intel for several years now, so I do not know if > these are still current products but it seems so from a cursory > search. The caching products alone should really speed up web and > network servers, so IMHO this is a must-have for FreeBSD. I will have reason to start buying rack-based servers for a large project within the next quarter and I can see directing those server purchases to Optane-equipped SuperMicros like https://www.storagereview.com/review/supermicro-superserver-with-intel-optane-dc-persistent-memory-first-look-review, although I'll almost certainly go for a higher-end unit than the one in this quoted review. We can use a couple of them as validation mules. -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 19:42:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A690233A6B8 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 19:42:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from mail.nomadlogic.org (mail.nomadlogic.org [174.136.98.114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.nomadlogic.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hL9S42y6z4Tqj for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 19:42:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from MacBook-Pro.nomadlogic.org (cpe-23-243-161-111.socal.res.rr.com [23.243.161.111]) by mail.nomadlogic.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id a64029a0 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Tue, 9 Jun 2020 19:41:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Optane Memory To: dwilde1@gmail.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200608152724.00002f13@seibercom.net> From: Pete Wright Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 12:41:56 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hL9S42y6z4Tqj X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pete@nomadlogic.org designates 174.136.98.114 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@nomadlogic.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.08 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.969]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nomadlogic.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.15)[0.149]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.961]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:25795, ipnet:174.136.96.0/20, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[23.243.161.111:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 19:42:05 -0000 On 6/9/20 11:39 AM, Donald Wilde wrote: > On 6/8/20, Jerry wrote: >> I am seriously thinking about purchasing another PC to play around >> with. My question is does FreeBSD support Intel's Optane Memory? It >> seems like it needs an Intel driver to work, or at least it does on a >> Window's machine. I have only been looking into the potential speed >> increases and not all of the other technical details. >> >> I already purchased one PC recently that FreeBSD 12.x will not work on, >> , and I don't >> want to be bit in the ass a second time. >> > I'd like to know this too. In-memory-space Optane should only be a > matter of supportin gthe timings of Optane and its write cycle, which > is much like FLASH. Another question would be about Optane-based > accelerator/caching boards that Intel has been selling. > > I haven't worked for Intel for several years now, so I do not know if > these are still current products but it seems so from a cursory > search. The caching products alone should really speed up web and > network servers, so IMHO this is a must-have for FreeBSD. > I haven't had a chance to touch these boards yet physically but IIRC they get presented to the linux kernel as a nvme device.  so there is a chance it may work already?  i'd be interested to see if anyone else has had a chance to play with one of these. -p -- Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 9 20:15:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8287033B98C for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 20:15:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x144.google.com (mail-lf1-x144.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::144]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hLvq5Jq9z4Z8w for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 20:15:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x144.google.com with SMTP id c21so97800lfb.3 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 13:15:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=heTRAN59sbddzvdhEIX+4K6FyhPeuzaa+BpkMpUuqAo=; b=c6FyOfll85raUlHc4Oe4k3+Qk5hprmQnkJMKU1kLq5N9OuEX2Hpa+UWSYcxNPM2dgs Q457IhwvPH9vPBVz/Cp7uKmSGRML2fF8gkGpPO3k4Dccjl7L9GctLRR2Va6eqJFfB1uw +MZxYBvqJRYnU98VlRAbFk/+a7OxUJqkvnK0lJJcuupMAEEeZ3ybqu4ycUFrLqybpiKL bR6A7inK7M5vA4QxqZjLacJstOp45/hWPXnusWdNdFZDWCrydlpy+qxTAeoCUJq0ClRB 2yEdAoYod0/3pED7cNWZr28/uS2w2GdG0/BEuQtm0+SECYVtcnUbpXHNra0LlGxKS5Fg PrWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=heTRAN59sbddzvdhEIX+4K6FyhPeuzaa+BpkMpUuqAo=; b=KBd+lEl6827MCLu5UR5ZFGfonJzVrPKhOnB8spFzDGvecV6Rdu7ri56XcKymH68QVm eDg9GunHnCIR0d6Jo77IBoQPn1dmYi2d3r7FKf4EaX8Va2PRGKHH/oP7MA4nef5xFof9 /TSuLQShF1EM4f/bxCLR+lJwaZW3SovIawh2ghLZ4npQc++6tNiWmpnUs8LgBHwCGvVz zNMOFpYShWVAdG3MaoOytrsnz4PUKOraIIhzjiWlvtvr9prDEZRbugFe9Z0hPkjJNIUv HQPEuEF4rRZA3lss3YXClZHsdQMZoOw0Tfe11gR0HuYL2F+Xo0LKROyAYMxHf5h7eL5l h5kg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532EzlfDenc/Rgn+ENH/X2GflAPnpWMIXUrAhza5b+jqhMn3uHLG tyrHM5hDjQZ4VOdXKxDENK/cAvYZ97KWfoEg4tSmxQRH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxCwoOSKL+ZI3EivRdYSve+hYiX84yZhWrKuJttIVpmbMN6AoVAfUUD8pkLxneB/hYFWME7iwLfxaQcE6vV3Rc= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5597:: with SMTP id v23mr16270320lfg.42.1591733717653; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 13:15:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <20200608152724.00002f13@seibercom.net> From: Donald Wilde Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 13:15:17 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Optane Memory To: Pete Wright Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hLvq5Jq9z4Z8w X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=c6FyOfll; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::144 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.41 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.42)[-0.418]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::144:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 20:15:20 -0000 On 6/9/20, Pete Wright wrote: > > > On 6/9/20 11:39 AM, Donald Wilde wrote: >> On 6/8/20, Jerry wrote: [snip] >> I haven't worked for Intel for several years now, so I do not know if >> these are still current products but it seems so from a cursory >> search. The caching products alone should really speed up web and >> network servers, so IMHO this is a must-have for FreeBSD. >> > I haven't had a chance to touch these boards yet physically but IIRC > they get presented to the linux kernel as a nvme device. so there is a > chance it may work already? i'd be interested to see if anyone else has > had a chance to play with one of these. > That's good data, Pete. My only question would be whether the Linux nvme driver is smart enough to understand the differences, because Optane is radically faster than FLASH. they may work, but perhaps not in the most effective way. -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 02:09:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0BA434464D for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 02:09:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from out-mx.anatoli.ws (out-mx.anatoli.ws [177.54.157.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "out-mx.anatoli.ws", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hVms1z6jz4LmT for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 02:09:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (unknown [192.168.0.1]) by out-mx.oprbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 933AB1E00BCA; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 02:09:43 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=anatoli.ws; s=vnptcm0lqn; t=1591754986; bh=JGewCzTNbR9Kcso4TOKpnoehKYSrJE8zCYAS1ouq5Jw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=MoTkn04K9RCxteJAiKPpV5/RkoduyCNeEEUqPDpQ4HJbN5oiITCE8+EANBZ+Y3S4k NrbCJqe8bJ3AltKiVErIXe3hMGWkkD4zyPuzh4j4ypjVtJ6xKcWyGAdBYnFKl15De+ snhqipqBs25rN6FP+BCJVmw9cDZ6WlJIS9fgdmdtkugLMfOIp42RR5aEoV64qC5K84 MmOwEXr7GN4xKmZ9iLYGYohGXZkD4YwVjLZGkn57cBGCY2P9Ks8HvFtf8Nm0HzeSeP XZJTPaLeD7WCs5xg2++npPvqGU2x6AXL1XQ48kXZ2VI39sHJtBMnm8Lov53BxItVps CJ9ly6wsMObtQ== Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jerry References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> From: Anatoli Message-ID: <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 23:09:42 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hVms1z6jz4LmT X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:262287, ipnet:177.54.156.0/22, country:BR]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 02:09:49 -0000 > Most of those URLs are +/- 10 years old. That is roughly equivalent to > the MESOZOIC period in computer years. That’s when the allegations were made and released publicly, over events that supposedly occurred 20 years ago. An interesting development happened 10 *months* ago, when the FBI was requested to release all the information (via a FOIA request) about its involvement with OpenBSD (spoiler: no backdoors, but other entertaining details). The [7] link provides the details. On 9/6/20 13:01, Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:04:50 -0500, Valeri Galtsev commented: > >> [1]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/openbsd-code-audit-uncovers-bugs-but-no-evidence-of-backdoor/ >> [2]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129236621626462&w=2 >> [3]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129296046123471 >> [4]: https://www.csoonline.com/article/2136901/an-fbi-backdoor-in-openbsd-.html >> [5]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129237675106730&w=2 >> [6]: https://www.itworld.com/article/2744922/openbsd-fbi-allegations-denied-by-named-participants.html >> [7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20489904 >> [8]: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/did_the_fbi_pla.html > > Most of those URLs are +/- 10 years old. That is roughly equivalent to > the MESOZOIC period in computer years. > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 02:30:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C19E3451DB for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 02:30:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49hWDC208Sz4NpM for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 02:30:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.143.87]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 191254E656; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:20:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Anatoli , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jerry References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:19:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hWDC208Sz4NpM X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.89 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[172.58.143.87:received]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.143.87:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.67)[0.674]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.62)[0.615]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.50)[0.502]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 02:30:04 -0000 On 6/9/20 9:09 PM, Anatoli wrote: >> Most of those URLs are +/- 10 years old. That is roughly equivalent to >> the MESOZOIC period in computer years. > > That’s when the allegations were made and released publicly, over events > that supposedly occurred 20 years ago. > > An interesting development happened 10 *months* ago, when the FBI was > requested to release all the information (via a FOIA request) about its > involvement with OpenBSD (spoiler: no backdoors, but other entertaining > details). The [7] link provides the details. > Thanks, Anatoli, again for details. And again, it was Anatoli who gave full story, see his original enlightening post earlier in this thread. Something got screwed up on Jerry's side when he was replying Anatoli's message so it started looking as if it was I who provided references, which I can not take credit for. Valeri > > On 9/6/20 13:01, Jerry wrote: >> On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 10:04:50 -0500, Valeri Galtsev commented: >> >>> [1]: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/openbsd-code-audit-uncovers-bugs-but-no-evidence-of-backdoor/ >>> [2]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129236621626462&w=2 >>> [3]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129296046123471 >>> [4]: https://www.csoonline.com/article/2136901/an-fbi-backdoor-in-openbsd-.html >>> [5]: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129237675106730&w=2 >>> [6]: https://www.itworld.com/article/2744922/openbsd-fbi-allegations-denied-by-named-participants.html >>> [7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20489904 >>> [8]: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/did_the_fbi_pla.html >> >> Most of those URLs are +/- 10 years old. That is roughly equivalent to >> the MESOZOIC period in computer years. >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 03:16:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC34345C75 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 03:16:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from out-mx.anatoli.ws (out-mx.anatoli.ws [177.54.157.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "out-mx.anatoli.ws", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hXG04yjFz4TZd for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 03:16:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (unknown [192.168.0.1]) by out-mx.oprbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 219B31E00BCA; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 03:16:37 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=anatoli.ws; s=vnptcm0lqn; t=1591758998; bh=OR53vBxdUWbLZ+sHcYwH6iK608CvD2U7VjZixwZYZ4U=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=pIe6V+U4M25tx5s4lPGQLNHglFF6Cpxogxrq96Lfu7wZujmAVMOVXofo+yQfvQOuj LaBJ7xRXUc2s7+rPkRYPuGUC2uEGuAuVk5ejhRHSHXhUy7sktDSLlqgIKJMVgyx3Tc /wDi8OkL4BFaQ8PH8vdj4etGzzFmtiPyoB5rF0tth9LFodsNRB/OFfo18jX5Axd96h D5ixtWs/cW55pP6Sbt29zqhVc8URlS+41ngP42qkmwezvwE1PmEZrIXV9/i6ibu/li dxtvH4TjQvYshjAqkW1AK/D5kDvXYOJ7S6V8PUXve5tXR7CD926xa337sMygJfKa32 GrLeOggJwI4JQ== Subject: Re: Optane Memory To: dwilde1@gmail.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200608152724.00002f13@seibercom.net> From: Anatoli Message-ID: <8c86c841-1ef1-b1b5-11c8-80a552a6a24d@anatoli.ws> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 00:16:35 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hXG04yjFz4TZd X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=anatoli.ws header.s=vnptcm0lqn header.b=pIe6V+U4; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=anatoli.ws; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of me@anatoli.ws designates 177.54.157.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=me@anatoli.ws X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.73 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[anatoli.ws:s=vnptcm0lqn]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:out-mx.anatoli.ws]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[anatoli.ws:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[anatoli.ws,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.25)[-0.249]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.977]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:262287, ipnet:177.54.156.0/22, country:BR]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 03:16:41 -0000 Why would you chose Intel? AMD EPYC 2 clearly is a better option performance/price & energy wise. We're evaluating to purchase right now these ones: [1] with Micron 9300 Pro & Max for storage. Next month they start shipping a 2U version with 24 U.2 disks. Note: these servers connect the disks at PCIe Gen4, not Gen3 as all others, with 4 PCI lanes per each U.2 disk, i.e. 8GB/s (64Gbps) for each disk. Right now there are not many PCIe-4 disks available, but next year they should be a commodity. On the other hand, how would you be using the Optane DDR? It looks like it gets about 2M IOPS, when Micron 9300 gets 850K IOPS. At the same time Micron costs $185/1Tb [2] and Optane DDR costs about $1850 [3], i.e. exactly 10x more expensive for 2.5x of IOPS. Is it worth it? What are your use-cases? Also, I suggest you check this article: [4] about this product: [5]. [1] https://www.supermicro.com/en/Aplus/system/1U/1124/AS-1124US-TNRP.cfm [2] https://www.amazon.com/Micron-15-36TB-Enterprise-Solid-State/dp/B07SK8GSYZ/ [3] https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-4-Pack-Intel-Optane-DC-Persistent-Memory-NMA1XBD256GQS-256GB-DCPMM-2666/274391818137 [4] https://seekingalpha.com/article/4315613-microns-x100-will-drop-like-bomb-on-intel-data-center [5] https://www.micron.com/products/advanced-solutions/3d-xpoint-technology/x100 On 9/6/20 15:52, Donald Wilde wrote: > On 6/9/20, Donald Wilde wrote: >> On 6/8/20, Jerry wrote: >>> I am seriously thinking about purchasing another PC to play around >>> with. My question is does FreeBSD support Intel's Optane Memory? > > [snip] > >>> >> I'd like to know this too. In-memory-space Optane should only be a >> matter of supportin gthe timings of Optane and its write cycle, which >> is much like FLASH. Another question would be about Optane-based >> accelerator/caching boards that Intel has been selling. >> >> I haven't worked for Intel for several years now, so I do not know if >> these are still current products but it seems so from a cursory >> search. The caching products alone should really speed up web and >> network servers, so IMHO this is a must-have for FreeBSD. > > I will have reason to start buying rack-based servers for a large > project within the next quarter and I can see directing those server > purchases to Optane-equipped SuperMicros like > https://www.storagereview.com/review/supermicro-superserver-with-intel-optane-dc-persistent-memory-first-look-review, > although I'll almost certainly go for a higher-end unit than the one > in this quoted review. > > We can use a couple of them as validation mules. > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 04:12:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 632DE347902 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 04:12:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hYVg2yxxz4bqP for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 04:12:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave.mehler@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id 18so603111iln.9 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 21:12:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8HN/ovBpvZtWjwAk2acRiuJHbQA1OoRYpf+x1DKxkEA=; b=TsE0AXxw5WAPmkgmBQixcSg3qnVjJ9Y+emrRebeB+gJIAbQWyvzAkOF9Yx5sFWg6/j hvwlmkFZIjb1X2oVM5u8ynmBE7/Dw0ZP8dnSVe1UmJA7PzNAhKftoZqRJq7/8vL4j85J 1EsZETSrLR/DNdxrwlLabl4L5DQyDhQd/KtNI4L0zDE1vtWpwzEHoUvcbbM2X6oQhQaU Qyn4pl0SxwZTN3CVM3QmuScqvoJief/iTBhcLLZ/QBf5Zj86bgooRIDeeqzZb9RqmuaD ht48c7uhdlFK95UZfA0hGClmvWrlyACTd907HtpAQ7Q0EslWUWiiUfWwayNhe7CtFuyT DuTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8HN/ovBpvZtWjwAk2acRiuJHbQA1OoRYpf+x1DKxkEA=; b=G2MP2tLuw5f3mDfFLt2jH+c+Gw5JhHtESoXXgHHIo1BP8HZNOnWow1J+oc7ysngOCw SDzmtID9QsdK/SWsPvmxGf9fxQz5WNSIdKJWAH4577ZW60UoxLuKGtuBxpaSfy386ev8 v0KQxiZHsnpMJIj5I+v3xodAX8ZaNJUItUVibsFFF8UcZvAVkf7OSYND5yC1sjI0uOwW DJaUcEFi6PQJi21/cyHkPhrlg4rzETWY6jjtiFZdZZn3BUh0u6gVEQbLVADFHtXFDiYL q4K+iD0odWypc49KsXZB6ZZdGrVvhp7fUWOF1QZGtSxMeea0y8joa0D0Zd2U1MTe3+D3 Xz+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339pMaoGrhaDv1v0AwTfWfJ2AnxTHQmoNS92g3jppxSlF+SuVKE xkz//ZRyy8txKoNt/BrTN9T0EdRZtvI9aMYznlUnUBCE X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwHGGCRp+cnrTxgADOZIsARrdMy8k7nV6NLslxYj3x50XT45HEbDx/qS4YzbbW4rVeeRf3d7T5kNEjN0YLKsbk= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c78e:: with SMTP id c14mr1283524ilk.70.1591762362150; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 21:12:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4f:6cf:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:12:41 -0700 (PDT) From: David Mehler Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 00:12:41 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: any pf experts? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hYVg2yxxz4bqP X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=TsE0AXxw; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of davemehler@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=davemehler@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.77 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.893]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.92)[-0.923]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.95)[-0.953]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 04:12:44 -0000 Hello, If there's any pf experts can you email me privately? I'd appreciate a sanity check on some rules as well as some help with ftp and ipv6. Thanks. Dave. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 04:26:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC94B347BB3 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 04:26:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hYpt4bDnz4dLl for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 04:26:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id a25so755380ljp.3 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 21:26:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=OAmfECqf4ZD+Le/r0eAVDvJTI7zRJ0QkNv2mEnkWleg=; b=nmTRTA6QtUURv2ZgljhQ4yZg+v2A4xgjTwYmcHwsiQ/wL4D9+ejNzQ11IA73/TYl4A Q3yWhojLecx9KsLxX6hZNA/o9JnC9vDkflisoVPlDm8SUdb7gEjAwFP/wx9lvQwlyXpa sVMEM4graBt5Ut1aHVKQ9Q+E/vFoPa3BHlBQQwt7BhhJCzc5LimgEsmX7Pmw9zopgtco nzl+t9/2we8dEGGIVjzN5qDnmgoMeSgmlgo3wL/ggcjuzhRtMyVebh0uItWhxEzXbM/3 E+RTJyZOjq3NojaTcJRpBaPJ16zAAynTPwHlKSBlQo+pNVwCfb3/qK6cxN7741lzOvoh Aobg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OAmfECqf4ZD+Le/r0eAVDvJTI7zRJ0QkNv2mEnkWleg=; b=Ft9wr9L3ofDQhOiadprksYf+7ETpfultVJ5VMMhxcx/LXjZtBB48WIBj+/igJ5hGfz 7X58WIbKm/OKDv08xcH7lR4wmm/jExCoGp0THsDwGLBXI0NU6YCSu+RSCobCJy4WZeZO osiPCoU2g0OnXau2wO7FN/WdNsRg38dVL/zkSUHx3M9Sg45l/mT+BuRFNZ5azgOublX1 3LDChI5fF4Fe8mdOA+qqmsXbCp5UZO8ChR92f4wRlA9Hs9afv6QJSa9ukb9UYn06hR+T /R4d5zY44KFzbM/i/mLMrzWSrFHPNcjtnm1SOExJhiiFN17qHs9QjpG2JVmnSikPgKTY vzPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532L4aqCNsFdqZo1KmuLuPK9TWz0HXG6Bonl5loAzdt1EB9P1ZNU ZtG2cvWXXErAB2bUW+oW7EiU5ZeIDyQYQu9pnpo0SRNL X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+6+I3p+Nvsfq2Xud5esgsKlge4Ybl2Z7UGlX8ohuLSYSwt9Ib8Sqnxr4aI4lbvQcejt4FL4inWa+80pDm0Z8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8e85:: with SMTP id z5mr673841ljk.330.1591763204572; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 21:26:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <8c86c841-1ef1-b1b5-11c8-80a552a6a24d@anatoli.ws> References: <20200608152724.00002f13@seibercom.net> <8c86c841-1ef1-b1b5-11c8-80a552a6a24d@anatoli.ws> From: Donald Wilde Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:26:43 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Optane Memory To: Anatoli Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hYpt4bDnz4dLl X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=nmTRTA6Q; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.76 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.81)[-0.811]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.954]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::230:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 04:26:47 -0000 On 6/9/20, Anatoli wrote: > Why would you chose Intel? AMD EPYC 2 clearly is a better option > performance/price & energy wise. > I'm not solely looking at Intel, although I _have_ been suspicious of AMD because until they shipped EPYC they were rather much in trouble. '3d-xpoint-technology' IS Optane (without the trade name), because Micron was Intel's partner in the development. Whether Micron is better at it, well, let me just say, thanks VERY much for those links, Anatoli! > We're evaluating to purchase right now these ones: [1] with Micron 9300 > Pro & Max for storage. > [snip] This is getting far off-target for freebsd-questions, so before the discussion-limiter daemons show up again... :D -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 10:36:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED1E330577 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:36:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qv1-xf32.google.com (mail-qv1-xf32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hk1B6Lpnz3X7N for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:36:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qv1-xf32.google.com with SMTP id e20so786345qvu.0 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 03:36:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=jqcUPSURKdmW3kCTLxsWb5f04Mw4aTnSZrS8XAIIudk=; b=kmVPxFUJzbWOXtQ1oEUc5HmGZgHbsfEgBUywc26PAPrnXSNf4i5Xe2uNx1D8kKWofO G+diJZv6oRUdt5I8QXTFzkxUGM5jVhLJJxc6qo3LpCkM+SNcNij+iMf8wyT0va9MyRyR JP8jM+DLnx3T0sWRa6Rv/OGC63CdbVFgaKiZc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=jqcUPSURKdmW3kCTLxsWb5f04Mw4aTnSZrS8XAIIudk=; b=naeKfxce1R3DUE4RNxt5nHRIPRl5DnJXDr2+eKuppQM7xh8sEKtFGaiPrBCWSEkG+p Ku23WjJriA/HFIEEswFCqSiFJE27gHZTtQjPMy19JSU7QR5t/8WFz8HMztQ610MWla7E q6LUXOhBK+UHFuC1bOSQEqw1eMK6FQEUTELUAqZAUQBuOJBRfJAkqn4nfsU0XMNFhp0s rhEUIXKAtHmTfSd15NBRqdXJJjpa9N0hvLwN9NsYW0AoL7EPClUqy8oQ2U0RNxnZzt2C +ynrRxqRj/Rojd0vhnLgyOpvxmLeLWntbCoyYJV3nBjUUgxUq1hSWQpwgz21LykT1PRM ZDLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ZWi7D9Zho8dTfhb0iIN9Bi6gOq0508WsH6596THU02mdqwS0X qokHBVy341+8gOyGd+B2C1CcaVLrSUM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwPaQ1jUgOOMLxozHd928twuPiWRSRuElSITOdF0W3uV11FQt9YXBU31hya7sDQxZEFQB64Kg== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4a81:: with SMTP id h1mr2427875qvx.71.1591785373378; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 03:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 124sm12079190qkm.115.2020.06.10.03.36.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 10 Jun 2020 03:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49hk155CNSz1hnH for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 06:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 06:35:55 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/wOiIsCz_6/6VteTq4.Ik1y+"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hk1B6Lpnz3X7N X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=kmVPxFUJ; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.37 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.11)[-0.110]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.899]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.021]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f32:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:36:15 -0000 --Sig_/wOiIsCz_6/6VteTq4.Ik1y+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:19:58 -0500, Valeri Galtsev commented: >Thanks, Anatoli, again for details. > >And again, it was Anatoli who gave full story, see his original=20 >enlightening post earlier in this thread. Something got screwed up on=20 >Jerry's side when he was replying Anatoli's message so it started=20 >looking as if it was I who provided references, which I can not take=20 >credit for. > >Valeri I have come to discover the problem with my email and this thread. Apparently, due to the way I have my sorting rules set up, mail from "Valeri Galtsev" and "Anatoli" are being misplaced and out of order in this forum. For whatever reason, Valeri Galtsev and "Anatoli" have chosen to include me in there replies to this list; e.g.: From: Valeri Galtsev To: Anatoli , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jerry From: Anatoli To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jerry HINT: Valeri Galtsev, and Anatoli, I do not need to receive a separate email when you respond to a post, any post, on the FreeBSD Questions list. In fact, proper 'net etiquette, is not to include someone directly on an email forum reply unless they specifically request it. Due to this behavior, I am missing one of Anatoli's replies to Donald Wilde in the "Optane Memory" thread. I'll probably find it eventually. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/wOiIsCz_6/6VteTq4.Ik1y+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7gt48ACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSwLwf9F45e16xpZ7PUE/LRTg6N53B6oOT4JD75cWsj5Z8eDX+ANWzSW3SgJLPo WneJFwo0DydlrU2xdhFoNz4mcoQxXbbFjA/C69wvlJuh1DJKqZRP7wLODTmLq3EV zuG57tcglhYJpgVBy++EzH0zMhPsjcST/DXfEi+YzYpLQsPu0yPx0QNE+tWjvgUQ FeAUXLPAg49CAj9jvW89Efpx/D0rP36KnA4Iv+O5AAvBS+YlGxoIKUJred+TH702 wGk2DUfZsF817FlBwjkNDnAglAXL4TwioLMjibG2cY3u16L/u8LHFmdRHoCzZLfW tPjcSdTTZqlJLpH567nCZm1zDZsI+A== =Uwmm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/wOiIsCz_6/6VteTq4.Ik1y+-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 14:06:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AC2334EEE for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 14:06:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from out-mx.anatoli.ws (out-mx.anatoli.ws [177.54.157.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "out-mx.anatoli.ws", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hpgV1ysrz42Y4 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 14:06:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from me@anatoli.ws) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (unknown [192.168.0.1]) by out-mx.oprbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 058881E00BCA; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 14:06:04 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=anatoli.ws; s=vnptcm0lqn; t=1591797966; bh=wil/BqJ8+GH6ldT0QYgGjjo2b8JMYhO3eScGCOJxkVc=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=mHQe6g1mXh+EvxwVtPlPCjKChOTbgRqw6/wB96kyjqtW1RMKww82VPIiXD9QRJoTp l1ROWT/tyZnqE6nBJfwtKqaReaNgCs9rWEwdI7yCAOQ6aMlLBKgjnyNIqrm6lT+7Kp 2vGKdizRV9Viep0MU2MkPVkEae4fHBRtgrgap9Rsq39VBK1EtUWZ4BJ5j+HoqC/cyC V2jSiRW/6elv8i+/HjZOhfigeO5EVkpdLmIF/JNVzuY8RFEFMNma0kla4MYCyiLSyu vhpVKAhVinrRWq4ouJlbUTCfQwan4HYfsNFH+22w+RlrSfz30u+/M/tEtNGtJbKcH/ JwuymN+dh+IWA== Subject: Re: any pf experts? To: David Mehler , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Anatoli Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:06:02 -0300 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hpgV1ysrz42Y4 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=anatoli.ws header.s=vnptcm0lqn header.b=mHQe6g1m; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=anatoli.ws; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of me@anatoli.ws designates 177.54.157.124 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=me@anatoli.ws X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.22 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[anatoli.ws:s=vnptcm0lqn]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:out-mx.anatoli.ws]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[anatoli.ws:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[anatoli.ws,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.72)[-0.720]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:262287, ipnet:177.54.156.0/22, country:BR]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 14:06:15 -0000 Are you looking for a paid consulting service? If not, you could send your rules here with the explanation of your doubts and maybe someone will take a look for free. On 10/6/20 01:12, David Mehler wrote: > Hello, > > If there's any pf experts can you email me privately? I'd appreciate a > sanity check on some rules as well as some help with ftp and ipv6. > > Thanks. > Dave. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 14:16:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1947B335A9B for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 14:16:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49hpv45dN3z43cy for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 14:16:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.143.87]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DEDBA4E64C for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 09:16:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Valeri Galtsev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 09:15:52 -0500 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> To: FreeBSD Mailing List In-Reply-To: <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> Message-Id: <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hpv45dN3z43cy X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 14:16:17 -0000 > On Jun 10, 2020, at 5:35 AM, Jerry wrote: >=20 > On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 21:19:58 -0500, Valeri Galtsev commented: >> Thanks, Anatoli, again for details. >>=20 >> And again, it was Anatoli who gave full story, see his original=20 >> enlightening post earlier in this thread. Something got screwed up on=20= >> Jerry's side when he was replying Anatoli's message so it started=20 >> looking as if it was I who provided references, which I can not take=20= >> credit for. >>=20 >> Valeri >=20 > I have come to discover the problem with my email and this thread. > Apparently, due to the way I have my sorting rules set up, mail from > "Valeri Galtsev" and "Anatoli" are being misplaced and out of order in > this forum. For whatever reason, Valeri Galtsev and "Anatoli" have > chosen to include me in there replies to this list; e.g.: >=20 > From: Valeri Galtsev > To: Anatoli , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jerry = >=20 > From: Anatoli > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jerry >=20 > HINT: Valeri Galtsev, and Anatoli, I do not need to receive a separate > email when you respond to a post, any post, on the FreeBSD Questions > list. In fact, proper 'net etiquette, is not to include someone > directly on an email forum reply unless they specifically request it. >=20 Jerry, I=E2=80=99ll try to keep it in mind. It often is so that messages = come addressed to a person and are merely CCed to the list. I have = learned to =E2=80=9Creply all=E2=80=9D to avoid message going to just a = person, but not to the list. I know, this is my laziness to blame which = I will try to mitigate. Valeri > Due to this behavior, I am missing one of Anatoli's replies to Donald > Wilde in the "Optane Memory" thread. I'll probably find it eventually. >=20 > --=20 > Jerry >=20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 15:54:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE413382A6 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:54:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hs4Q4hpRz4BY1 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:54:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED8E2EA24 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:54:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GpFa0mHyNldj for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8D5652EA19 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:54:27 -0400 Message-ID: <69ee92064444771e23d47418afad2f3e.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 11:54:27 -0400 Subject: Q. re: zfs clones and promote From: "James B. Byrne" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hs4Q4hpRz4BY1 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.52 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.82)[-0.819]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.017]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:54:31 -0000 I am working on a clone of a template jail in IOCAGE. My thoughts were tht if things go horribly wrong then I can simply remove the clone and start again from the template. If things work out then I can promote the clone. However, I am not clear on the implications of promote. I just want to go thorugh this so that any misapprehension that I have can be corrected: 1. A thick jail (X) is created via iocage. 2. Jail X is started, has a specific suit of packages installed, and is stopped. 3. Jail Xc is cloned from X. 4. Jail Xc is started, additional packages added and configured, setup as desired for its intended purpose, and stopped. Now, I read this in the zfs man page: The clone parent-child dependency relationship can be reversed by using the promote subcommand. This causes the "origin" file system to become a clone of the specified file system, which makes it possible to destroy the file system that the clone was created from. The way that this is worded can be interpreted that Xc becomes the file system and X the clone of Xc, which can then be destroyed. What I wish to have is both X and Xc as independent zfs file systems. Is this not possible using promote or must I use zfs send to obtain this result? -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 16:48:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A00339906 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:48:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49htGq0tTRz4FwZ for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:48:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230D410193; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:48:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Q. re: zfs clones and promote To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <69ee92064444771e23d47418afad2f3e.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> From: Arthur Chance Message-ID: <31daba1b-f340-d433-eca2-088fb676b7d8@qeng-ho.org> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:48:27 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <69ee92064444771e23d47418afad2f3e.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49htGq0tTRz4FwZ X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@qeng-ho.org designates 217.155.128.241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@qeng-ho.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.003]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.155.128.240/29]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[qeng-ho.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.35)[-0.346]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:217.155.0.0/16, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:48:36 -0000 On 10/06/2020 16:54, James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions wrote: > > I am working on a clone of a template jail in IOCAGE. My thoughts were tht if > things go horribly wrong then I can simply remove the clone and start again > from the template. If things work out then I can promote the clone. > > However, I am not clear on the implications of promote. I just want to go > thorugh this so that any misapprehension that I have can be corrected: > > 1. A thick jail (X) is created via iocage. > 2. Jail X is started, has a specific suit of packages installed, and is stopped. > 3. Jail Xc is cloned from X. > 4. Jail Xc is started, additional packages added and configured, setup as > desired for its intended purpose, and stopped. > > Now, I read this in the zfs man page: > > The clone parent-child dependency relationship can be reversed by using > the promote subcommand. This causes the "origin" file system to become a > clone of the specified file system, which makes it possible to destroy > the file system that the clone was created from. > > The way that this is worded can be interpreted that Xc becomes the file system > and X the clone of Xc, which can then be destroyed. What I wish to have is > both X and Xc as independent zfs file systems. Is this not possible using > promote or must I use zfs send to obtain this result? > > I read the manual entry as saying that after promote you *can* delete the original file system but you don't have to. What you have after a clone is two file systems with one (the clone) being a "side shoot" of the original that "borrows" the original data, so the original cannot be destroyed while the clone exists because of the borrowed data, whereas destroying the clone only deletes back to the fork. This only matters if you want to destroy one of the two file systems, and promote switches the original/side shoot relationship so you can choose which file system you want to delete. If you need to have two completely independent file systems with no sharing of data you'll need zfs send | zfs recv to create a copy. -- Fat Earther: One who believes the world is round but has put on too much weight round the middle. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 17:24:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C16533A3F8 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:24:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hv421mmtz4Hyn for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:24:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49hv412NWTzj6r for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:24:15 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hv421mmtz4Hyn X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.37 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.967]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.09)[-0.094]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.81)[-0.806]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:24:19 -0000 On 2020-06-10 10:15, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > Jerry, I’ll try to keep it in mind. It often is so that messages come addressed to a person and are merely CCed to the list. I have learned to “reply all” to avoid message going to just a person, but not to the list. I know, this is my laziness to blame which I will try to mitigate. Some mail readers know about mailing lists, recognize messages from them, and offer to "reply to list". From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 17:54:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2844D33B15E for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:54:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.107.128.30]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49hvkq2m5rz4L5R for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:54:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [198.74.231.63]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D1EA650D1 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:54:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (doug@localhost.watson.org [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 05AHsP63022171 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:54:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 05AHsOZj022168 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:54:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:54:24 -0400 (EDT) From: doug Reply-To: doug@safeport.com To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd In-Reply-To: <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> Message-ID: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hvkq2m5rz4L5R X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of doug@fledge.watson.org has no SPF policy when checking 204.107.128.30) smtp.mailfrom=doug@fledge.watson.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.54 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[doug@safeport.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.65)[0.649]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_DOM_NEQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.94)[0.938]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.95)[0.949]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[watson.org]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11288, ipnet:204.107.128.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:54:28 -0000 On Wed, 10 Jun 2020, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > On 2020-06-10 10:15, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > >> Jerry, I?ll try to keep it in mind. It often is so that messages come > addressed to a person and are merely CCed to the list. I have learned to > ?reply all? to avoid message going to just a person, but not to the list. I > know, this is my laziness to blame which I will try to mitigate. See https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#idp44832888 which the above line vio0lates, but no spaces, what can I do :) Says nothing about CC-ing. For me personally, I rather like getting cc'd because I read questions on a totally different system as I get too much email to my business/personal emails to add questions to the mix. If the current thinking is different from the above article please let me know. If you were cc'd on the netbsd thread that was indeed a lot of emails tossed to people that may not have wished to get them. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 20:32:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605DF33EEF6 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 20:32:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49hzFj390Tz4Xgn for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 20:32:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id l17so3440535qki.9 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:32:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=PtCZKMUUGH3vLk4L1jNBvwBVxbTuCQEPeZy+14WRPwM=; b=k1qWmWQnU76NLFugVaDPnxPZTZy4PsEU/2w1deIFvx+1VigE4NzU7RCPKwBvn30SJD KmP/ehR/7EYm67EqjWk4aoDw1R1/pY35H4ol9NHFAJSki+0K+l2yizF33daNMQLqKjyC /r4fcm1athPP2ZKkCGFN4d/z3V7J/6eOja9iE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=PtCZKMUUGH3vLk4L1jNBvwBVxbTuCQEPeZy+14WRPwM=; b=pjRViJqYXp5wEXRGW4t8eGYJ7pOREJ3p+08/EOukVI5H5OXy0uBddRQdEGf3d1oU4U QJnv00Az+oZ1ydMA5XAC1bDA5uvw8GV51u2FVU+ORtRwQID4Gcx64MEsVF9frWuAKdRG Gh4dfGF0ueYc46h6/FUPRKNxvfOojXalpaAiuikqRd8L8giEjHuPIOXDu5B8abOvqt3Y l1gfuHEV4QXihcfay4JyDgXI3fcrLsruqNa+HHhmIes2T2ugvVAVO72sJDjAChapmsHX 9cSG1V7AS/1wGz85rqOG8BD4f4F8amWnqvPiNhxnSrQB/TygTXFhxnXiqM9mJW9trP7K aqCw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530BJGT/cVlhgrP7j4WFecDg7f8AZyQXkf11n8i9g3KUqPZ/eSnI 65AmXBL7CSAaNH1/cg8dtwjSOLlDxt0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYlWmquJqnFcquQJlCdgYoHNyBwUxHoycThRW0tquoUG7pmBVLzpUHaReqO+zaK0RKzOqihA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:a56:: with SMTP id j22mr4932665qka.287.1591821176125; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 63sm481059qkm.82.2020.06.10.13.32.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49hzFd6zN7z1xyk for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:32:45 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/2gEJmcSabiRDndzV9dP6/+G"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49hzFj390Tz4Xgn X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=k1qWmWQn; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::729 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.80 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.019]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.42)[0.415]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::729:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 20:32:58 -0000 --Sig_/2gEJmcSabiRDndzV9dP6/+G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:54:24 -0400 (EDT), doug commented: >On Wed, 10 Jun 2020, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > >> On 2020-06-10 10:15, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> =20 >>> Jerry, I?ll try to keep it in mind. It often is so that messages >>> come =20 >> addressed to a person and are merely CCed to the list. I have >> learned to ?reply all? to avoid message going to just a person, but >> not to the list. I know, this is my laziness to blame which I will >> try to mitigate. =20 > >See >https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#id= p44832888 > >which the above line vio0lates, but no spaces, what can I do :) > >Says nothing about CC-ing. For me personally, I rather like getting >cc'd because I read questions on a totally different system as I get >too much email to my business/personal emails to add questions to the >mix. If the current thinking is different from the above article >please let me know. If you were cc'd on the netbsd thread that was >indeed a lot of emails tossed to people that may not have wished to >get them. _______________________________________________ I agree with the majority of that article, with the exception of: Try not to use MIME: a lot of people use mailers which do not get on very well with MIME. I think that comment is seriously dated. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/2gEJmcSabiRDndzV9dP6/+G Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7hQ20ACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRq7Af8DxQg8SmhKzHhbH41/7qAxGUzfgg0qVoGrLaD1a1HauYZg2ingsCJPWKj G2bh6t0pKh31aNku6wBBD5dT7+6ofi9IgY/oK56jnKgIqm7iv/ZknmIjPAaTDCPL V/Quv/5jeQY/vcIVxtUUgoQW5lOvWuBoTimKgP0XgjJkBbVX8ZqJGAftFB3Cj/nK nIHnUzmcJd9LSNNbMxWJI/c0MW+d76R79cUiDYtNTl1N6PduQM1VSw/tws08HECB hzNwLGUxfbMZtBSZHHRXk063Vtmqb9hUZckyB+PUoCSCrlfrIfnR+uOYQC/r+6zD BwnSbT1iIoq2Cib5WyD2dvpVKbHQdw== =fZxW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/2gEJmcSabiRDndzV9dP6/+G-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jun 10 22:08:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F53340B97 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 22:08:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49j1NV1dDvz4csb for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 22:08:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id j12so2389765lfh.0 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:08:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=MsiJR2ohjNExziB7FNpOsrLJctaCHk5QeqC6kxR5azY=; b=fCMlxV6sjS1y+kvIwp/FsIEuG4bsUyjShXFneT8hb9fSJ+SnBDANIZf3/wucnitQ/6 sL6Pg8cL0v6PmL5zMi6nW1nOoCAdf9NGEA5cULH1dCAfpzixdhorBab2ZQVbllvaVeu4 RFbfDR0Uu8sr6uFBa8jgCe5q5WuZIxReStWYg9ElehF7q+478ud37NbVXwszhhsElaW3 5ySDzessbyiiSVfIYlMBUx5FT5mJAccs6E3vfo+M+TAnY76hYXsjJSlAAAmChG28dvQ2 vh7D8BJkzEHkLxDurQk4HdKR//KajOTbo7tWufWoFSgDnDgiq2VA4owQLKgMzk5ZmHLC Ubgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MsiJR2ohjNExziB7FNpOsrLJctaCHk5QeqC6kxR5azY=; b=mECWGB8lF55Tew/9MKAgatDWavcFO+1708fyqqWrkr3Ji224C719v6jbxMedzhFqEH GHFUdBSdYA/F77JUuTI9azm20sur3TlMZ3SzkMsisZux5R0eJY9+TcovbbIK8YKg94g4 +oIC7GPSEn7p3swcaOqWywTuuiA3JCTJcBM/fivXIN2SC95NBfMv36RUnUSBqocr6CfS wv1bOeMBPcHSl1FEw2xO93cXjEiNhe65+nyhjbgGmyqGcTYNZiOY1hSDgiQH0b+PmIli Mv3ffLWe+qFxVuKXX0gc64Bn80w8f8DKRdhrKhwZmVMRp7CjjbT9BpQ/W1UNRaTbozpS G7xw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533uZ5CZ5CgtNr17StgUgrbHGru0TmGRRMdoLmqf826vG3WJ5NZM dW8IBAr7vgndT3vKyz0uSD2oWm/0qDlxfvmMeDTLtYKH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxJweqcnMzDpZTHfPL9csQQI47u8Du+SkHfqnq4Lcw0WYH0icef8ex6+0YGPf+qrgrk394AsosRzWJggi42gTw= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5de1:: with SMTP id z1mr2686542lfq.183.1591826934610; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> From: Donald Wilde Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 15:08:54 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49j1NV1dDvz4csb X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 22:08:58 -0000 On 6/10/20, Jerry wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:54:24 -0400 (EDT), doug commented: >>On Wed, 10 Jun 2020, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: >> >>> On 2020-06-10 10:15, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >>> [snip] > > I agree with the majority of that article, with the exception of: > > > Try not to use MIME: a lot of people use mailers which do not get on > very well with MIME. > > > I think that comment is seriously dated. > Forgive me for being once again a noob, but I use GMail because I do not have (at present) servers on-line that represent real domains. That will change shortly again, but gmail can handle attachments, quoting responses and UTF-8 characters but little else. -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 00:05:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B01342BED for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:05:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49j3yP686Vz3VJX for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:05:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id 794BD41E90; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:05:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.21.87.214] (unknown [154.213.3.116]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA56A406D5 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:04:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> From: Warren Hua Message-ID: <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:04:54 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49j3yP686Vz3VJX X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.88 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.967]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.06)[0.064]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.974]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:05:03 -0000 if not using MIME, shall we use plain text for email content? Donald Wilde wrote: > > Try not to use MIME: a lot of people use mailers which do not get on > very well with MIME. > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 00:38:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6749134389F for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:38:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49j4hX4Qpyz3WqB for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:38:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id 51AEA43575; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:38:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.21.87.214] (unknown [154.213.3.116]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9836A43570 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:38:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Warren Hua Message-ID: <0720af69-08b0-9be1-4eee-7bc45cd4c617@boxsci.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:37:57 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49j4hX4Qpyz3WqB X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.964]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.053]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.975]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 00:38:05 -0000 If you have been using thunderbird, there is a button "reply to list" which works smartly. :) Valeri Galtsev wrote: > Jerry, I’ll try to keep it in mind. It often is so that messages come addressed to a person and are merely CCed to the list. I have learned to “reply all” to avoid message going to just a person, but not to the list. I know, this is my laziness to blame which I will try to mitigate. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 02:11:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD2B3459B0 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:11:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49j6lx4TbRz3c0Q for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:11:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 9so4995500ljc.8 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 19:11:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=ZqW2pcF2TXBfJIIKIc0KSb5MyOcw1Je96uMpUXIc5TI=; b=cODUniuk80+GPPAKg2PA045OHm0uNloxcSVCRvPjBFJDUMZVIuezVmMmJxHCUhiCZR zTNT4XWmqhv1QQ779HGVYiEvoe3PZAGPzpjMdnb9YKkH5cuEwEcX1B3IYFQFbI9r452m gA+TEJddglctT58y4SONQ6AewQ/anchpWmG+VnK6jUaUh4FJpx+rRCSp9HEZ5sVTamM/ KDP8V0YN3as/j8TRso8T0Ei527bxXbYu5J1cUHHt+TNTxUGBbuHUWj6WPhNsuvCa97q5 8qhGgsSLlP0qvtYQqG1uWOVlEgmiuF5DdkLegekN6zxaL8BNN8BSjF5yq3LHvSHWbZgY I24A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZqW2pcF2TXBfJIIKIc0KSb5MyOcw1Je96uMpUXIc5TI=; b=WZG1tZHzeXyohCXFnw3fA6nO3+RVQXf3st4guv237onvSVOV36jOurmSeUCB83aukg OPnvI8PWgf3pGCozLEfmykofbYhRuxmAMjQYQV10jl3YumLjt9lg+ejQLc0hpJk1q5Db y9tnCJhCktZwP3rX1Cdp6/+3t+k6uxt43YnHYCeztLL3ppxg/Pvs1f0UJ452nU+vOEiL mBM7JPslnJqjxYt/iDNvUSsMpVjgP4WEh5YSEdvFlOl/TIe05x2AZVjIR036RnEbiL5t VX78oqL8QMDIenE7z6enQJdI9gCvGD9FAPWNGr0pGsA5/GE53GnlCufhs/Yc8EiYfsaY uXLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fBC0xptIhhTa8wUC77UHjGaG2oOHbHNJnfNA9xhh3R8WeQjpS VvG7qGLwGUmHEU6dwF5663ba9zcRCfInlNPM9x0nL2S6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwnPh+m/AAVCAJbpbjhiXFZnfvHgTBrWj//EKYZUrwLp4OxS3kPNi5zOoezIbKSfKGtXkivAt5OvLV7ZfE2vFo= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2202:: with SMTP id i2mr3242899lji.199.1591841467643; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 19:11:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 19:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> From: Donald Wilde Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 19:11:07 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Warren Hua Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49j6lx4TbRz3c0Q X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=cODUniuk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.51 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.045]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.53)[0.535]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::22f:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:11:10 -0000 On 6/10/20, Warren Hua wrote: > if not using MIME, shall we use plain text for email content? > > > Donald Wilde wrote: >> >> Try not to use MIME: a lot of people use mailers which do not get on >> very well with MIME. >> I merely quoted that, Warren, but it does impact me. I'll survive it either way. :) GMail appears to accept MIME, and I can see embedded MIME tables, etc., but the non-text stuff doesn't survive the reply-quoting process very well. Actually, given that the output of the quoting process is very usable indented plain text, I think Google did a very good job considering that GMail is a free service from a commercial, for-profit company. -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 02:45:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6344346FF8 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:45:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49j7WW1ns9z3fDp for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:45:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id 4C32640AEB; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:45:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.20.59.136] (unknown [113.106.251.87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 364E540A7C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:45:22 +0000 (UTC) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Warren Hua Subject: tools for building mailserver on freebsd Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:45:17 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49j7WW1ns9z3fDp X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.64 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.959]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.70)[-0.702]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.976]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:45:28 -0000 Hello I am trying to build a mailserver on freebsd, including the full stack of webmail, imap, antispam, antivirus, ssl etc. I searched and found there were such tools existing, such as mailinabox [1], but they work on linux only. Do you know if there is a similar solution for freebsd? thank you. [1] https://mailinabox.email/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 03:41:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B09349D80 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:41:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic301-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic301-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49j8m513Yxz40jV for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:41:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: Z0rsogUVM1lP24dthkm9rjpm9sweMkSkmbx.rwLIeRAW_VpboxygGOOmk5t9PgU AEsQGk96TO2HbDtA9kMOaz0cfT6JODJ.E3SWWO4yCZ4vx3_ENGRioqKaXDU6L.3OgD7AoMVUlXjk uSiPGIq1VZ8NNx5VTGmvMetzD754d9jF6JUcCjAw.sBxf.fuIAxVrZm_mgDHAhSfPee_3FdcjWNj zCG_U8MvIbYQo5FP1EjWJabVv4e26gIV4RiPoYKTuRyKtHBI5Enc9HHCOBLnkIN97qMdmACRsPqJ .ikCzWj_TQwOtSd_Uw1ZMoM8yRA4tPUwzkV6lf1KharYs7w0K.z0xGnXd1pPAkm77_pcZPdQJ_Ib zKE9SNPMPj.NZseqBNEMYaWvB7qJAUMIeA7vmHPNIXy8SjdxhG5PThXcUf4OBlxxLlc.8zrn991Z .UQbjMGWdFpGHYnmWWGJeaW4nxg594L2xAWE8LLFSO32zvEclwlowmT4xs.qHMkvYjCQSZJbhaEA n0Rv6p6yPCaCJ4ut9ynkLWaUTGyWYxOlweVZWo8LAFDC_J8biWiWoMdg.0WioJOF5QLV5_HxsB53 ufW96Ll5NJmGMjRi8tRwAvK9X.aSnpJS4l2P_UJgumAS9E.BgR5uPxhQD5SI.LMyD0eip5OT.DWJ J4aD_hCWGLO_725DyGvz88cJ1_Ej86drHrjx_PAiDs5LBjIOJdFKMRSC9_kcoJZJaIewBh3VoI1. PaFPhzZR0i2.eEHrb8mIXDIXjcUrRK7BHrnxKk85Hf3zos7FYm7B_0iPLsXBA5uxSop.TLFL7r8_ HJQF2nP5tu9kJUNoHX4O9eLR0a1Egr.9B6S8j1eD0SANU1zgc6Rr.9JIp6z6dg9nrL5.bl2q8iAy v8AumY_tHTzuOI.u_Ejy5R_n5Tw.G2LAnsZnsgvqBu6JtrMJ3_C60IEqx0Zvwtnl9.7.QzbYp_y9 PUc.EotoHc8BLkTjrOASyNiyO.ytn.hqalFpxP.IShGHDIinsWQV.TCJsoVP4TFrJ9ZsUHUSk0tK UU_3857Qo1vVQWF35q2Ps1_iT4L.R7VyFuG.RZ9pp4WAprOufjDCjQPjyx5mJbeQHJ_SLK1cfnbg 8CcQVnvvm9SpiDTGS.Qa_91sHC.WrasBYbOguR4Bc8HbgeliC0XyDTKJLL8LKNG6gP6YIv8gdwXh nTnq4GZJqznIZyLJS2jiRTfE9ibo8hU5DWxGwG2u1jFpQlT34R6uPxkpjYpYGzVp8N29dmXLNUUj tWVNn84RYp1c.3XpQpn9qVmdz5YpyALNxTNzpsfCWN6m7FwZXU_suwvcIWN2QnGy0os0ey_OfbRb pBcgdHdiNmxWMINL1jUEHCLxJmYjl76ITMZaV1TNJAaVK6ZQ4x7RJLCG36j7PNQq.dnIyYfG4Joo pyQ-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:41:22 +0000 Received: by smtp425.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 11a568b878d62b0b8a18d0622744048d; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:41:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:41:23 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611054123.11860fab@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49j8m513Yxz40jV X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:41:25 -0000 On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 16:32:45 -0400, Jerry wrote: >I agree with the majority of that article, with the exception of: > > >Try not to use MIME: a lot of people use mailers which do not get on >very well with MIME. > > >I think that comment is seriously dated. It is. Btw. mailing lists using mailman, that did not remove the digest option, should default to mime digest, if digest is selected. http://www.list.org/mailman-member/node28.html This way a digest reader can reply to an individual email, by keeping the subject and thread. The Evolution mailing list followed my suggestion, before they removed the digest option. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 04:05:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E1734A238 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 04:05:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49j9Hg3R9Xz41cy for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 04:05:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.155]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01D764E652 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:05:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: tools for building mailserver on freebsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <7f0656fc-f3f9-4058-8382-c3dab4c4cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:05:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49j9Hg3R9Xz41cy X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.74 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.155:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.37)[0.371]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.45)[0.449]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.82)[0.817]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 04:05:20 -0000 On 6/10/20 9:45 PM, Warren Hua wrote: > Hello > > I am trying to build a mailserver on freebsd, including the full stack > of webmail, imap, antispam, antivirus, ssl etc. > I searched and found there were such tools existing, such as mailinabox > [1], but they work on linux only. > Do you know if there is a similar solution for freebsd? > > thank you. > > [1] https://mailinabox.email/ > _______________________________________________ I don't think what I did will help you, but just in case someone comes across this thread, I'll describe my setup. I have to tell up from it is laborious. On the other hand, I like what I did. I set up components I will describe below in FreeBSD jails, a few in each jail. There are some that just have to be in the same jail. But the smaller the number of components per jail, the more secure in general the whole thing will ultimately be. Several components are even living in jails with different IP than others. mail itself: dovecot + pigeonhole; postfix shell jail (yes, I do give people the ability to ssh to the "server") web jail (and there there are user web directories, r/w for owner in shell jail, readable to apache, no local user in shell jail can read other users we directories; through web server only) webmail with squirrelmail and roundcube maia for spam filtering - great as it provides per user preferences, web interface, laborious for sysadmin though; clamav for virus detection; and some distributed spam databases databases run separately; postgresql for settings of some of the above; mysql for maia as storage backend, alas, I never managed to have postgresql work here... should be something too mysql specific in maia backend storage part. There is also mail list server, but I mention it separately, mostly because I am going to migrate away from mailman 2, so this will change. I hope, this helps someone. Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 04:39:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE72434A89D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 04:39:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@boosten.org) Received: from smtpq6.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net (smtpq6.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net [212.54.42.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jB304H5yz42lD for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 04:39:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@boosten.org) Received: from [212.54.42.135] (helo=smtp11.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net) by smtpq6.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jjEzp-0005Uu-62; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:39:21 +0200 Received: from 84-25-247-31.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl ([84.25.247.31] helo=smtp.boosten.org) by smtp11.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jjEzp-0001b5-1e; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:39:21 +0200 Received: from [192.168.13.34] (iphone-peter.boosten.org [192.168.13.34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.boosten.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 18D931BF92; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:39:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Peter Boosten Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: tools for building mailserver on freebsd Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:39:18 +0200 Message-Id: References: <7f0656fc-f3f9-4058-8382-c3dab4c4cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <7f0656fc-f3f9-4058-8382-c3dab4c4cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> To: Valeri Galtsev X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17F80) X-SourceIP: 84.25.247.31 X-Ziggo-spambar: / X-Ziggo-spamscore: 0.0 X-Ziggo-spamreport: CMAE Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Qdn9QvTv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=JWBJsaPp29SgP5DpYRBqZw==:17 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=tJH9xGPiAAAA:8 a=bfTq5_EiPeczWAzuVK8A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=OfwfXyqfpRAA:10 a=lvNDOE9i95YA:10 a=KYHGhvEo8_f0mtjlDsMA:9 a=_Y0Kd3UX9osU2duU:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=HBD_kRSUtkV9tavlhyFi:22 X-Ziggo-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Flag: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jB304H5yz42lD X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.57 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[boosten.org:s=myselector]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.54.42.169:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.54.32.0/19]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.040]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[boosten.org:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[boosten.org,quarantine]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.940]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[84.25.247.31:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:33915, ipnet:212.54.32.0/20, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[212.54.42.169:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 04:39:25 -0000 > On 11 Jun 2020, at 06:05, Valeri Galtsev wrote= : >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On 6/10/20 9:45 PM, Warren Hua wrote: >> Hello >> I am trying to build a mailserver on freebsd, including the full stack of= webmail, imap, antispam, antivirus, ssl etc. >> I searched and found there were such tools existing, such as mailinabox [= 1], but they work on linux only. >> Do you know if there is a similar solution for freebsd? >> thank you. >> [ This link helped me a lot. You can leave out the solr part, if you want to.=20= https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/mail-server-guide/ Peter= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 05:06:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB61134AE4C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:06:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jBfM3wpJz43pc for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MeDYt-1jBHup0Trz-00bN2T for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:06:32 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:06:30 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:UZFl+L4f/V/KaNWRd7t7aynyewmg35nYgq45cxY+59Y6f/QzFZp f+78LYRBS3Nj++iF6oog50+WzvGFTmyQRhq3driBAmLq12ZG2YgG7sJaULrqxdxAtiHpna9 sEwV5tzsWgOLbzbsN0f+PbumxmXRzvZDHNEBakFf0xAA+2MTn66XvTjiAigHEUYnMDqgfNr TBzvHjDNg1wiVxaZkfEtQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:PwdKSCdse8M=:I8WrQfxRuwxwT1ZbOtCgau 2EmV0TDtp+c0yNtLLIAiAiy6OQ80VxDbD1YArVShK5rUaSy5lvgpEaWa/JRt/36kWSe2W1ojg JSS+1nLrrng3l5yaMwNN+k/XJpHmrtZ2JAosbiq2QmuxrTSzPcLTV5Vm5SGKmgJFX5qsdkj5o KqZrUnnA6IEPhD7aQsbwAxUHFT3oadgiieJFrw+VJGn30Hft+2NCgn0U6NCEN/fxWhf8LBVwJ k7V3ENZImRXHA3ZzirFEHPtzvdpflpiB6TOugZISBABYeu2rUbuGAnCpC2u3jQIeI6Xe3CS2I jctAYhOUwEFS75Txeogqz2EpDbgqD8sp9nOFVSd4cYdiTAPpoWTJEcXiyIVi0SQ2NHV/lP35Y RbsBiPPh6lZlRf+/g1uLsuDh3xqdoT8P4qWapgQ+CkwgrrpNfehCQaPalVWWDWcgDlkgIxV06 BndXM9vbiMtB/7Zy5h/pSSzQwWhisecD+jOxstAxE6ynkxc1MKIQhtSuPalrUDkrUbNbf+SJ8 8rSwd77G75wbSCygA4UE56SmhVqHCZf3EQzrLME76IWv5kMDy6/OhPwkIVYyqaINAHbj8PHsV yHWnnUScel3Exn5MzU2J4ue9IlMjEsPAxZtalvjBtOx3trOAjocJgHhpEuWmp91soD16I5VTG d0tiCfb3c5K8gnXs/233MU126bG/bbfbNNrA5l6C9v/H+0717hlvHCW6K30C44NRpb/llxElV KcFvH/gs9ohISMlfmDc7Hb3VSc7NKpRx9e35raNNVgsNhh9Ta77vdIyAR6q31mLK6e6ZbHtGs xtt+Y5njMMSH1z73PVMFE/dQ8IqKwmJpwWjBDzoqAC8WSgdaGOYpgube51F9LZ8l/jI5Bjh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jBfM3wpJz43pc X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.09 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.162:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.17)[0.174]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.67)[0.667]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.85)[0.847]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:06:36 -0000 On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 13:24:15 -0400, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > Some mail readers know about mailing lists, recognize messages from > them, and offer to "reply to list". This isn't even a new feature: my old version of Sylpheed supports "reply", "reply to sender", "reply to mailing list" and "reply to all"; as long as the relevant message headers are intact, this should work as expected. However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient it is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why sometimes replies are send "twice"... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 05:09:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 713B134ADA8 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:09:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jBk162Wmz43xy for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:09:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:09:43 -0600 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jBk162Wmz43xy X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.26 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.68)[-0.685]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.76)[-0.761]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.11)[0.110]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:09:47 -0000 On 10 Jun 2020, at 11:54, doug wrote: > See = https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#id= p44832888 Seems very out of date too me. For example the first thing it says is to = wrap messages at 75 characters because not everyone uses GUI mailers. = This may have been relevant in 1995, but it sure isn=E2=80=99t now. CLI = MUA=E2=80=99s handle long lines just fine. Standard Compliant MUAs are pretty universal, and worrying about if = yours is or is not is largely a waste of time. I don=E2=80=99t think correct clocks are much of an issue in 2020 either = as most of the Internet randomly will break if your clock is off. MIME is fine, as long as you do not enforce formatting on your text (For = example, any messages I get with a forced white background and black = text I delete unread; similarly, if you think it=E2=80=99s clever to set = your font to 10pts because that looks good to you, it gets binned). That said, try to use plain-text whenever possible. MIME messages for = attachments and significant data or metadata that may be lost in plain = text, fine. But if you garbage up your message with an unreadable HTML = version just because you like it, that=E2=80=99s not. Same goes for images you attach to advertise your company. I would say = attachments as part of the signature are never OK, but that might just = be me. One thing missing is =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t post 20 line signatures=E2=80=9D= . It=E2=80=99s best to try to keep your signatures at 4 lines or less, = though some occasional variation is fine. The admonition to not top post is wrong, as bottom posting is also bad. = The correct behavior is to interleave your post, responding to each part = of the original separately. Of course, if you only respond to ONE part, = it follows so it looks like a top post. But 500 quoted lines with =E2=80=9C= me too=E2=80=9D at the end is actually worse than 500 quoted lines with = "me too=E2=80=9D at the start. To be clear, both are very bad. The rest seems fine. Talking about what characters to use for quoting seems very=E2=80=A6 not = even 1995, more like 1985. Some mailers will go to great lengths to prevent proper quoting, but as = far as I know those that do make it impossible for the user to edit the = message to do it correctly. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 05:13:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E827034B19A for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:13:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jBnz756Fz442c for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:13:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jBnz756Fz442c X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.70)[-0.696]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.74)[-0.738]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.07)[0.070]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:13:13 -0000 On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: > However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient it = is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why sometimes = replies are send "twice"=E2=80=A6 A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied sender = if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the message was = from a list, and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 keys in = precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 05:26:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A5D34B43D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:26:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jC5T3Z2xz44TZ for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:26:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id 12BA741295; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:26:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.21.88.29] (unknown [154.213.3.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42C744128E for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:26:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: tools for building mailserver on freebsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <7f0656fc-f3f9-4058-8382-c3dab4c4cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Warren Hua Message-ID: <832e1c23-28bb-affd-8d5d-4f8d66cda93f@boxsci.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:26:29 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jC5T3Z2xz44TZ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.78 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.960]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.15)[0.153]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.975]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:26:38 -0000 Peter Boosten via freebsd-questions wrote: > This link helped me a lot. You can leave out the solr part, if you want to. > > https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/mail-server-guide/ This seems nice. Thanks for suggestion. regards. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 05:37:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C597F34BA9D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:37:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jCLF1Lt3z45Rm for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:37:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id F3183412B8; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:37:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.21.88.29] (unknown [154.213.3.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1DA89412B0 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:37:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: tools for building mailserver on freebsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <7f0656fc-f3f9-4058-8382-c3dab4c4cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> <832e1c23-28bb-affd-8d5d-4f8d66cda93f@boxsci.com> From: Warren Hua Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:37:34 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <832e1c23-28bb-affd-8d5d-4f8d66cda93f@boxsci.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jCLF1Lt3z45Rm X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.45 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.959]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.48)[0.483]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.976]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:37:41 -0000 And, this guide is even better than those smart scripts (mailinabox etc). Following it step by step, we know how it works exactly. I think this is also the difference in principle for freebsd and linux. Thanks. Warren Hua wrote: >> This link helped me a lot. You can leave out the solr part, if you >> want to. >> >> https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/mail-server-guide/ > > This seems nice. Thanks for suggestion. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 05:57:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5BB134C118 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:57:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jCmZ6qdKz46Tc for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:57:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mgebs-1jHe5o0Gku-00h9Mz for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:57:00 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:56:58 +0200 From: Polytropon To: FreeBSD Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:edJ+hXCmK36NvV9koMKugOZMUUw4b+YOiV+itFKiMGoWPyFwf/9 q2WXyMXw6GMasp31RUFOnuS9GX0c/aLGYk4z2qX9YyoNsXd9qw8JgK/HdUrIZoYeLuP62oK KTDyvtSQ14tmCzkOKmzB9xV0gMzMrr/nleCY5YC3Fs+3yTxWZInmWpOmIzLwXF+4VRS3KCa CcrwkaVoOhO8/wqmKFN1A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Xpp1AsykR5g=:zaD+WaTWdS4YjIy9BvEEKS HdLP2ZN9pWKFFxpTJaMUcWW6rhvRuehZS9dr/46qnHUCoBC2jWapVYvaJjrtgmhSWvG0q3HYa 8fmmTwBiU8HvW9XqSmnZOsN4tUHn2XdeueTd+EVcNJIFfktdEjC9qdlYPxEPVGFbZYrp/Ci3m jtPA4o99xYD3pxI/6v7MIF7P7PjHzl8/b6ICsGt13+rY1B9lQ7GheeXAdVxMO8LqIDloFToJ6 8/E/viwezMXKmlbG2na8R3Ojdq8JA9eGZVFyNrKWHIDNZq8RWJfqtCYEPQY4DJzeeP1Nnfnuk XjTCOSFqQl/nkGJr8kKXB4FdWY4fGvdj7wjXzc6KNmuK5L+yZKzq5mfvOYE6n674jJJUAF4Lr MAIFUChc3FeONok2QflzC6Q8/h1b/wkOxWv3FoJrsTuCM0Vt0UeHSlCSVJX+Q6pX1VMWx2liA NcyaKVmw0IY4nj14/dvtfeA7RWVBSB1CNJpetxfxU7YG0igGK0N8/9dHQxHGmQ/OEvYb621/o suYNj5dOhLSIpxGZn2poR7tN2+abmUJZAPCPSN5ccL44S3gf8ILuEzZF0+G3aXpmpD/2/iCog ZLiG52q8HjDk+5ixd1NWGbomeE8gjxOB54M22pmgyj6Vg3WmO+X71jeJI7QVvstx9SF0DHE4K HaqNbJgQJBV6pGVXTTTox8uRAyIehtIQkUlYyoGb2XSp+8abrF2YTe5vWDCHN3Bh9pSm5GBd/ rMsCeXpKR4n1ED6xqxjjZx40K8kIzGBl4PURwzbTae9V1RWBBd7YID/IrJbJkLnZwZOLbCSuW MnBPrQVEum6RuXjEqrIek8Mwr1NUJuqPsUpbXGe9X7EjRbf8H6h6y/jGeuVZG+MIS18JphS X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jCmZ6qdKz46Tc X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.59 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.162:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.43)[0.427]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.80)[0.803]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.96)[0.961]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:57:03 -0000 On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: > > However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient it is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why sometimes replies are send "twice"… Attention! Here we have a severe case of "MUA ate my homework"! Your MUA did modify (!) my original message, so the quote is no longer correct (as it imples something that I didn't write). Aspect 1 is no big problem: It removed my newlines and put everything into one long line. This is no big deal with regular text ("paragraph text"), but would be with code, or something laid out to be a table or a diagram in text. Aspect 2, and that _is_ a problem: I wrote "...", which is three periods, and your MUA turned it into "…", which is an UTF-8 ellipsis. Aspect 2a, a sign of inconsistency, is that your MUA did not change my " double quotation marks (inch symbols) into correct typographical quotation marks. And how could it? Which rules would apply? I'm in Germany, so our quotation marks are "two down" and "two up", while in English, you usually how "two in" and "two out", something like this, incorrectly simplified: ,,The german style.'' ``The english style.'' And there are of course differences in AE and BE. You can also see that I used tabs and empty lines for format my reply. If a MUA eats those, big problem. A typographically skilled person will even say that using something like “that“ is wrong (uses same symbol for start and end of quoting). Similarly, MUAs could mess with the use of dashes ("-" or "–") or apostrophes ("'" or "’"). All those considerations of course lead to breaking my carefully crafted message in plain ASCII (not even using ISO-8859-1) and lifting it into the UTF-8 multibyte universe with all its unsolved questions. ;-) > A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied sender if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the message was from a list, [...] As I mentioned, this will only work as long as the relevant headers are intact. If some MUA mangles them on the way (yes, I'm looking at you, MICROS~1 products!), this will no longer work. And as I've been saying this, MICROS~1 products are also known for changing message content (see above, aspect 2), and even mangling timestamps and timezones. Oh, and MUAs don't have to be smart. It's much better if the people using them are smart. That's fully sufficient. :-) > [...] and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 keys in precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. Which is inconvenient for users who _wish_ to be CCed in the typical "reply to all" manner. If I remember correctly, "reply to all" has never been a real problem on the FreeBSD mailing lists. Users can set up filtering rules to remove duplicate messages they might receive during a thread, or remind their counterparts to pay attention to use the "reply to mailing list" button. Sadly, Sylpheed has a prominent "reply to all" button, whereas "reply to mailing list" is a drop-down element next to the regular "reply" button. So you can guess which one gets used the most. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 06:13:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F3134C894 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:13:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jD772lsSz47hV for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:13:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MbRXd-1jBqRr0p7B-00brEH; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:13:02 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:13:01 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Warren Hua Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tools for building mailserver on freebsd Message-Id: <20200611081301.f05ea3d0.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <7f0656fc-f3f9-4058-8382-c3dab4c4cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> <832e1c23-28bb-affd-8d5d-4f8d66cda93f@boxsci.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7QnQb/fSpqlOHWca5JwmSrjd+GeZlGo2hWZhlilObFB4b3lYiBh wSW2iRsSTW81ynk4Ogal5gtmH6rfg12gZ5ygYspI15PjklHNNVp0mFQOSplAYexZQwI6qhf u31KdOVgXMJOl8aT/gi5/bVwB7G8LF/Yf56qHl0RbEl4YGZuzdsMv81ysT1IddNZ0ZPKPK3 NEa0SXM0LghhP5tFhFEyw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:aLr+fBCDsK8=:j1yOAyIS4jmDuqdvMj8SGS CtcLgcf+8xARgXzRLewblobBVy0mvzg8P0CdHKOsWctnme78qFsqL4z8B58HxwiHZzxQvKpZk WJ+MFh/VJES7wGoTEAI24sFPYndkTQ4XXmxgPDFUFurjhWE0lYmZ01xKSELYBJb+IkGEYtlAL 955RKaXO2V1+Ex1EskSrKzSPV3k6H43mrTmo/TMpnc1x9lwdlHmYYetO7p4Z8WEgds/LWN0dk liR1dRhgDVyW3Vgefe8mNUCRICM/OUVOS5zyD4MhRwiME/UWZkI+p5hzEbIlA/dGlyP7lRBP2 bsovHWMjBOIbSCM3zlU+fencbW0B1oI+KUCeypjfo8fWP0sSlEGx57wZUIqQeul4XoNqfQA9b 4Z/bxNBTesHA2nYugKcqrucf9Ii2+3QmYxXh9iO6Ozs9xqxJTk3E0DUYO4D2z7SCO3LfzZpTE B4rtls67S2hi9rI6WcHcI/zFb0f0BXfgm7yZr45qmUD4m3t4GW8JMIVayr+UjdG4tgIO80lZs T3qSxLN+T6JcnKD1hoF43MYwFRgMmDf+ynIBS3SAZhTTCHKYy7JP8YvgH5U/QWt01VBmE+alq QCvJqCaf/D9Sw1TaeFvoAkJih5yHkJXr2iS7GlVpffJJQa/uUX35P2e0PQBT2Hk0j48NPZVqH 0ywRW8qpuUC2YQMu6cwbJS4pTzGNfLoyyodxeSXvS7wLfYjpyUugqP1yQSCsXfPvJ8miT93GC Q9y+r+kEyxKl/lPuGQCLUF/uuT87nwF1hEExC1IehVWyr+CGX0vFGr2YHcuPcnzXM5AToudZN 2NzWEJbnzG9gaW+5sbJO7mF6ZUhl5ZePSJMiTlq/o3gUxD6ti4= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jD772lsSz47hV X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.45 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.162:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.12)[-0.118]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.15)[0.151]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.02)[0.018]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:13:08 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:37:34 +0800, Warren Hua wrote: > And, this guide is even better than those smart scripts (mailinabox > etc). Following it step by step, we know how it works exactly. If you're running a "full stack mail server", and you are responsible for its operation, you probably _should_ know how it works exactly. > I think this is also the difference in principle for freebsd and linux. It's the difference between a "turnkey system" or "appliance container" compared to a system you have full control of, in all of its parts. If "just for fun and experiments" is your primary goal, a pre-configured "all in one" is definitely nothing wrong to use. But if you plan to build a long-term system that is exposed to the public, you're probably better of with something you actually understand. And imagine the common case where security updates are needed. On a system you control, you can update and maybe reconfigure the parts that _need_ those actions, while leaving the other parts untouched. You can do this on your own, very quickly, without having to wait for a 3rd party to update their "magic script" and hope it doesn't break anything. Being able to understand the different components, how they interact with each other, is (in my opinion) essential if you want to be a responsible (!) mail system admin, as this is _not_ a "install & forget" thing today. Sidenote: You can create a meta-port of your "full stack mail server", and if you install that, all required components will be installed. This approach also works, in a different manner, if you separate components into jails. Summary: You never know what's _really_ in the tin can. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 07:14:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4D634D268 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:14:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic309-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic309-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jFVT0ZDYz49tb for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:14:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: WWEsLaMVM1kSXBZVnCRbD2njdh_5iymvoTFMmhjv5mvWL2mZXpV73Xpbq7n5HEy CNZDXg51gh6GQdWxSSVjQ8lBNnJ5bDMI3jS5Z5rky5.xBW70aJ7yiBROPAwgZWd6uRnycRVVs.tR zBe3HhpAhv347rYGeXXnB4TSiXZlf2lCCxoDICthWuTnBZlMx2s0zvmDJHXbFZHAlYVq4NInMHPQ nOHLEClBKRWc2Rj4RP0dUqz95En1xARj3SzcE6U_l78a66wQhmQPm4IzZrlrRH3YwCvcxObtT0Hh KYKl..GjXOisaaOWDMm0PsN2ehQUNaULd2ArxRrhovYsLRokul6Fh3QrMCEvWykvrSoS_pCdAg2D RbWLsOjaLzCV1wsCs4nQ1OGhgfI__0mS2a_H9tDQ1UCwlncBN7XL5YX2_dCoAtJzVqonPi3BwIVL gkwiMw4lg6rtYqoNct9O1iicNmP7SO5ziM_Cxp2xZjm2QbPKVhAYpXuPSaCSuD4jIcWunzpxK3vo 55VyyL609ltqygcfSey0V.4XGzojIHs2c1kihy1Hijrs9tBfapi8DmCPKvQecWtJq5izvcuHzfGH CtlVvIVXMAMpq6KXzKCFhpl4YTIjDmADc7KvabrFrK5lc_m55SqcXOwKuSAlufGaRFWly0CYeaou _ewOKSkMItFa5Hw8S9_6VwyjYiYz9XEsnZ0xnRC7EDh6bxWyBPIDAujQrtp4zBVrUC_HiucdiGf_ ORwiXl1hwBQBGbZQGfjN.ktIL6Dm7HFpTZRG4Z3JS7SQ1tBHKp387CLs..CWTOjdzJtbaXjsmT_N qbvOfPXRC3ynUlo2dScaHSsfUdgBfC_suV9Tn1IpsiaQkgOCAprrQstmBM_yqaEvOy7DSBhDDvNR a0nXh5KVB5GN3DFjUdRfGNwDA8CRz2FuSPXyp.wzY1q6UBDyF1PX2EPcBhR3R0DK00Br6vqScphI Mod97b3NBgCIbygx8CbMDirAo3N_hDnyoach2iVmHNjQpnEMCRWH9.1ZH5.u_ErmUVHiJloSLtLV khSY9F9k0TQMYLLkFEC.hl70z02y6n1GBQzGijP8qwxAQzb8j4RbBtTQZxEpDBYd1j_hdKfH2A2x NYRUwt4IkXHZVtcS6Ukib86DNRZRKn13xO.KSmuC3fPDMFVIQ9FwJ82nURQhgXZo6lWqkSWQukYX u7Mo.dt0QeG.Z_WxhQTvWPOw.vIQF9XUkxulf3BJ_z5I.w1gkw0W_VVNixJwXhMOfBCPZoi5DB7N ZmWity.MCJSwGRm4SW2AwPe9bC5f0B.shfCWmLGNZRgetvxFdUhJBkA7pyhZQjj0FdZNyuvc5FO6 WPaYy1hwmcZgdsnl38ZDCFugvsxOrQT7aPcKaJgxnAjDZtNgvGKfrOPoTAdS_0QOmD_kdNpneRIF TVnzSEDCJ Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:14:55 +0000 Received: by smtp415.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c772981b6719b8c0f27c656f1e1ee34f; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:14:49 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:14:49 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jFVT0ZDYz49tb X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.03 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.84:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.52)[-0.522]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.028]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.84:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:14:58 -0000 On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: >> However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient it >> is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why sometimes >> replies are send "twice"=E2=80=A6 =20 > >A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied sender >if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the message >was from a list, and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 >keys in precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. It's not just a question of a "smart" MUA. There are two different "smart" approaches. Depending on mailing list settings, formatted headers of the user and the wanted result, both have got pros and cons. Either "reply all" or "reply" could invoke a mailing list reply in a smart way. However, it depends on the wanted result and the headers of the sender and kept or overridden headers by the mailing list. Btw. the mailing list never sends 2 replies. One reply is from the list, the other directly from the sender. It's even possible to disable duplicated messages by mailman, but then you'll receive a reply without mailing list header, IOW just the reply from the sender. IOW it's a cheap workaround, it's not smart. A "smart" solutions always providing the mailing list header is possible, but hard to achieve. It only works if the common goal is defined and all pull together. It requires agreement regarding the content of the Reply-To and =46rom headers. A problem could be that some MUAs usually only provide one of the two options, but it's required that depending on the goal the user can chose between "reply all" or "reply" to invoke a mailing list reply. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 07:22:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5CA34D676 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:22:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from listac@nebelschwaden.de) Received: from mail.worldserver.net (mail.worldserver.net [217.13.200.38]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.worldserver.net", Issuer "EuropeanSSL Server CA 2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jFg06yqGz4BPN for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:22:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from listac@nebelschwaden.de) Received: from postpony.nebelschwaden.de (v22018114346177759.hotsrv.de [194.55.14.20]) (Authenticated sender: postmaster@nebelschwaden.de) by mail.worldserver.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 11C3525590 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:22:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.16.37.5] (kaperfahrt.nebelschwaden.de [172.16.37.5]) by postpony.nebelschwaden.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98BBADA695 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:22:17 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: listac@nebelschwaden.de Subject: Re: Moving sources (base/ports) from /usr To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <8d48921e-7af1-9313-0781-4ba4bd9c1f10@nebelschwaden.de> <20200520110833.f47610a48f0f28dd563c13aa@sohara.org> <2c3bd26c-aaa3-9998-e5e5-e3f4f3796ffc@nebelschwaden.de> <0b98639e-e714-412c-950e-7d20be5d1147@hedeland.org> <20200520144555.2e935417.freebsd@edvax.de> <690ef022-1afe-645a-aec9-30f9d84561f6@nebelschwaden.de> From: Ede Wolf Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:22:17 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <690ef022-1afe-645a-aec9-30f9d84561f6@nebelschwaden.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jFg06yqGz4BPN X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of listac@nebelschwaden.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.13.200.38) smtp.mailfrom=listac@nebelschwaden.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.19 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[listac@nebelschwaden.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[217.13.200.38:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.80)[0.795]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.29)[0.293]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.30)[0.298]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nebelschwaden.de]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15657, ipnet:217.13.192.0/20, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.13.200.38:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:22:23 -0000 With a little delay, here is just the conclusion. Moving ports or src to another location is actually way more simple than it seemed at first impression. Seems like well structured OS. So, to the best of my knowledge: For ports, simple move to the desired location and specify in /etc/make.conf: PORTSDIR=/clutter/ports WRKDIRPREFIX=/clutter/work DISTDIR=/clutter/binpkg SRCCONF=/etc/src.conf SRC_ENV_CONF=/etc/src-env.conf That's it, you are set. Works without any modification for portmaster as well. I do not know about other tools that have an own configuration files, like portsnap, as I have not have them used yet. WRKDIRPREFIX is where stuff is build, but it also keeps your config settings? DISTDIR is where the downloaded source is kept. Moving /usr/src is even more effortless, just set following variable in /etc/src-env.conf (or whatever you have defined this file to be in make.conf): MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX?=/clutter/obj That's it. There is one more environmant variable, that can optionally be exported in the shell of your choice, that is SOURCEDIR setenv SOURCEDIR /clutter/src OR export SOURCEDIR=/clutter/src Or your respective configuration file. This is only used by mergemaster, and if not set, mergemaster will ask during invocation. Just be aware, if not net and you have not deleted the contents below /usr/src, mergemaster may use /usr/src if a certain makefile is present and this may lead to unexpected results. Remaining open questions: - Is it possible for makeworld/kernek to move the workdir out of /usr/obj? So temporary stuff may go to /tmp - Is there a way to prevent installworld from creating /usr/src if it not present? - Why are portvariables defined in make.conf, not in src-env.conf? But those are minuscule. Thanks everybode for your time, help and explanations. Ede From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 07:34:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED5F34DCA1 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:34:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic310-57.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic310-57.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jFwV1Sb2z4BWp for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:34:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: vHpWCq8VM1njT6RIXs5LypUs49e63CgoagDbv8LCQozlIRl.zwX64vcQ2apyc2q 86oH40ocj.ye_EeQZcCPD8j7jU0XOaJAM03xA1GOhk.fZIAS0Lvl03TKJ.25cAP81W1GbYoQ4pZU hsfI0BRkkQUoYepbxoBjP51D5XzKa3u3iTerslfSL1yH77qy6G3iHCgnVVnA4Fk6uwbCx_PGWH4g 3pqw2FXsiHp3srtOv60HlgdgpIhXUSC7bGGoO.455cJFMEb26BsbdYv2Pi5mOprt8qb35sHicXMN 9NNPqgd6YDm7fHQzXvsNQtz8KfIzmst_NRr0RxbvuExjZDTpsOQaHW5s3wEakC_dgykAuVZgE6gE LsLmR6L8jLm5wRM5fepZOCQ6K2wFO9sRnrxCYbB1gvo5t_f96ry781Z0uw2AsoTvMo2EImMjIFJv kE9VY6Kh7HKqmfkxHyHoKBztV61RI6yOlhU4guCTT7k3Mzza.WfefWZsZqBjGji_mY528eNGocO5 4KGWzeIe5DkjYcai7RFAtDmYLFsojgDvnO1we_b4QQjmPCeRtX77RRz5G8MOnMJA7dZGoeExr3Am y6LZh7WQCHyNPV7E6lYQzh.uUp3F3epDrFHOPngFUkie9sIUbrEIsfeVq_k3L4EL.F5RWKAgqc5N GebI8yXh4fMUsEV8e6LkOnRD0Pu684z59V8i.LZ_shQJbfk7ntPAnzCnQCBTTbUhcsnhpkFNY830 pYpuycy3hjjKeAM74FfBwk.u2ZNMlSG_KX0Lm_vkt_pTxoBWoPeCTzLfZOq5PtfnlT9aq4CyYXwI qW0w3haG5BDy.yxgbJ9vq.uYsElBEVX4OjMsfaJ2OCqVvhI4qQpz9YEmHibYw2y9mT_zEC4BoLkE FvvtKC2OoCCmGfR1l3VCVE3NwHtckLf0QsaVvr.I1Tg2kkLZEXZZDB0DCihT3khldEgOM4gXN.cw VwLJxMWrj6_ndCg9nhUCfof9j8N3YebKLljJrb5z9OP6T.o1ZHQYrgjNxEhdksllrm.pwKTGi5WU MImxXDZQvrl59.6_DuVqFH_rkOazgZY0QlCsZrbUC.YaqYJN1LUDs8AdtQ741r0tOlowHY6wckjM 8KMmQIWQnVNoLUH8K0DFXNM5PpgURuHwwaD.PADpLQpWLJ2mkrdh6J9PnfPuwywWDy53Myv54QlG II9bTDKIVHLp1uRxOQZZ7bEL15NiexyzCP2P5sy0rDZNp11J0oLExiRH_oTy81oevxaYHzJk0iM1 2qvfblRrqoXbCa_DZ5UWCtfrd.NG1IQayT1N9kis0IFHPwe8GKpOCGrsris9VdUDKfKBhShaNamK 6cY8pWSgVoC.DWbkpGObdsuO4AXznhbwhudm1nLNn1fyQ2X1zZoUuyrQb_6L5kEBCZB1Zw18axKY S_Hdd9W2T Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:33:59 +0000 Received: by smtp420.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0713d5b210dd07c70c6006bad527a481; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:33:56 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:33:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16072 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jFwV1Sb2z4BWp X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.033]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.177.30:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.02)[0.020]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.177.30:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:34:03 -0000 On Thu, 2020-06-11 at 09:14 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > > On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: > > > However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient it > > > is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why sometimes > > > replies are send "twice"=E2=80=A6 =20 > >=20 > > A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied sender > > if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the message > > was from a list, and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 > > keys in precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. >=20 > It's not just a question of a "smart" MUA. >=20 > There are two different "smart" approaches. Depending on mailing > list settings, formatted headers of the user and the wanted result, both > have got pros and cons. >=20 > Either "reply all" or "reply" could invoke a mailing list reply in a > smart way. >=20 > However, it depends on the wanted result and the headers of the sender > and kept or overridden headers by the mailing list. >=20 > Btw. the mailing list never sends 2 replies. One reply is from the > list, the other directly from the sender. It's even possible to disable > duplicated messages by mailman, but then you'll receive a reply without > mailing list header, IOW just the reply from the sender. IOW it's a > cheap workaround, it's not smart. >=20 > A "smart" solutions always providing the mailing list header is > possible, but hard to achieve. It only works if the common goal is > defined and all pull together. Depending on the goal, the mailing list header is unneeded and can't be provided. Btw. the goal could not only be 'if a do p' and 'if b do q' ... unfortunately there are more things to consider ... you might want to do 'p' or 'q' only, but 'if a' and 'if b' might require more logic such as 'if a and if y' or 'if a and if z' ... > It requires agreement regarding the content of the Reply-To and > From headers. >=20 > A problem could be that some MUAs usually only provide > one of the two options, but it's required that depending on the goal > the user can chose between "reply all" or "reply" to invoke a > mailing list reply. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 08:17:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B2B34EB93 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:17:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jGv50cVrz4DXJ for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:17:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id 9D89C414C4; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:17:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.21.88.29] (unknown [154.213.3.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6D73A414BA for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:17:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> From: Warren Hua Message-ID: <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:17:45 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jGv50cVrz4DXJ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.84 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.964]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.10)[0.100]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.976]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=onwE=7Y=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:17:54 -0000 Hello Ralf, Since we are discussing with email, can I ask why you choose this rocketmail.com email account? b/c yahoo/rocketmail has the strictest policy on DMARC, thus it breaks any mailing list forwarding. As you see, for every email sent from you the sender is replaced with the list address itself. What's the DKIM for rocketmail.com: _dmarc.rocketmail.com. 1799 IN TXT "v=DMARC1; p=reject; pct=100; rua=mailto:dmarc_y_rua@yahoo.com;" p=reject is a bad setting in my opinion since it breaks any forwarding (including list). I asked this question for no special meanings but just curious. Thanks. Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: >>> However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient it >>> is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why sometimes >>> replies are send "twice"… >> >> A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied sender >> if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the message >> was from a list, and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 >> keys in precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. > > It's not just a question of a "smart" MUA. > > There are two different "smart" approaches. Depending on mailing > list settings, formatted headers of the user and the wanted result, both > have got pros and cons. > > Either "reply all" or "reply" could invoke a mailing list reply in a > smart way. > > However, it depends on the wanted result and the headers of the sender > and kept or overridden headers by the mailing list. > > Btw. the mailing list never sends 2 replies. One reply is from the > list, the other directly from the sender. It's even possible to disable > duplicated messages by mailman, but then you'll receive a reply without > mailing list header, IOW just the reply from the sender. IOW it's a > cheap workaround, it's not smart. > > A "smart" solutions always providing the mailing list header is > possible, but hard to achieve. It only works if the common goal is > defined and all pull together. > > It requires agreement regarding the content of the Reply-To and > From headers. > > A problem could be that some MUAs usually only provide > one of the two options, but it's required that depending on the goal > the user can chose between "reply all" or "reply" to invoke a > mailing list reply. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 09:42:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0872328CC4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:42:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic307-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jJmm59Vsz4KkS for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:42:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: VWbBSYgVM1kXADanFmNUpbTh9hy9t_UAbYqPjBP2wq5TBcVxnbkyl4qdL7U9ot0 kjOe7FAU9JCjq_tTRubQO3lGn.dccFpuzcN_okIGaHbw_DEzKe_5hKLV1Mut9SH6iDWualXh.9wm MpowFeJ67XZjjH1SqWUal4EtKnfoVaupVMmONp.tcTRPhZXAF_CseiFC2kJvTiujtQK.Txoe.8rM ExqppIHVFLO.f2bRqoXv5hxCI5CTBe_FivmnMOBAlRrUPqumyvxiAWBy3wYpXruOQ.SgtPr9Qhjj 9aNUkMizWkbsCQ5i6k9f2YUDesoBonwa_VtFxhpLyCPvO7o4q8uT2.Le3ie0qIfsCNPmZSob8zVm mfbCa5w9RJSHl6FD5w5BxhjOIaWMa7LTv4T_xbURofuZEfz.xz.BHDokZSVzMFLE8TxvX4K_BdDz dRL6Q_MEM73vE.6r5MXc06a69qmDIEdEhM6Dl3OBUSdBYIBStrflSyRwffHCr8ukWH0AJs2absZv vTR9esKgVvv3W1e5.K2zLe3YDEldz3qSszygp9rXMs6Iva.inYVs5MoaNnQkzB37C7F8FbJ.kTwm zYGbpMxmrTu5h8xqQMCO.a1xKoATyipnzXImG8q5STV3m0a4W45ofbYsqUbRPDPvnVy6StJ.afOX EWrpoiZpumawzUzrhdnGrxB3HJAhkuzJ8MjVkXRskwLd5jo5dZMn_lgbaXdffzudCV6DYoQFppVl x.gdNEFf0tMae6X3vXnSsdjFZE7w.Jntg1h_i6zQzRaO4z0KdjRBgC5FdyjHGAix99rQCYgGSZDK LdWRK31z8tKnspWZG0IgrPOgyVamJtnFi96Vie1DMChC3AQZ61SSBuorphBqqiYMMu_cUSz.dZYU WiGpt8wnOu_u8lKJQlcjn8eCPQrWNYJoXMLo385yeNT3V_MnSjTjPIHozk8We8.NOT5bhd01Uslc cezks_OCHqvk3wHn5p4OKc.Ff3Jn7grrq5wUQRWg564Yn1RIyZRzBgXaOUTbOE9igCaspKLXCO3G hxIxMg1sQZ_d.GNC7HpuaNFIF63vCs.juzOtSmV7GlSZKCk.TG2bel0jvZtOXzM.tBseCDh.CxqY Y8EDVLiNUjUAdy9kjc3SdzwEh2MiCvQH9weWVfkptUStQnkeYp6E97AefypxlnPRMvESpcCkg2sK wNX22VwPEdn48akbHsVjI0D2lzZiDLQc2f1L5CXeCLW3XvbPzqRrYAFzaR0Hyui8soDqHgVj_N7z MZGRYGaEpV1MQ2kdWvxdp_apDwi7R3rP.roujNlGpcohLZSVV8Wew8eFYZIqpFMOmKRhl1D7nmpg qf8DqIV7u8qwYTN2fnP_rpWuS8bS5QSl_5NLblt9pQ5J4AIYGzDmczjqchTkwvUZBBdUo_Dp0VTD rS3OrYkQ26sPULo3Z1A-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:42:30 +0000 Received: by smtp428.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e92836035d9fff737fc78c0a56bcf0a9; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:32:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f181.google.com with SMTP id m7so2119213plt.5 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:32:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Nj82Bub7x6CNI1LdVJrmz/klt9Fk81Q+v3gD+Nrj/x5XUhG6c prqaOh8kUKPq+78x2QOboueNvPsSTyt095EDSr4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyuQJ4XTyQe/SHXUs52KI1N0S4Ef6ZrhhEOkm5acgKIZjrcUQJ0yGg6Ecq2uemeBhMSfu+GUkcW4n31W2gOhtQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:26f:: with SMTP id 102mr6258227plc.226.1591867941777; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:32:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> In-Reply-To: <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:32:05 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16072 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jJmm59Vsz4KkS X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++++++++++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [14.27 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; RBL_NIXSPAM(4.00)[66.163.190.31:from]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.89)[0.892]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.69)[0.689]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.89)[0.894]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.190.31:from]; URIBL_BLACK(7.50)[boxsci.com:email]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.190.31:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:42:33 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 09:17, Warren Hua wrote: > > Hello Ralf, > > Since we are discussing with email, can I ask why you choose this > rocketmail.com email account? > You keep on top-posting and breaking basic and established etiquette. I wonder what makes you think you are in the position of lecturing. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 10:01:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBDC329489 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:01:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jKB86mvPz4LGQ for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:01:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id g18so4076397qtu.13 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:01:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UoD/c5eWFMkSQjf1DWMYgonp8rKVGG+K46pX61bRWFE=; b=Qx+s/Tr70DqsdHCa3Hbf6oMPX7u8hbyrDAI2Oz9KyVNQExf2ZyRlOozewu73KvtlWx 6s4W1av3yg0r2/F2EXm6+Li5FZUfYuS+fJFjyN8F6k9anLzIWDLwVDhqlLdpfejxTf+x brLwxKBJhpJh1K1UddWQcGcxWf1gt+VgrrdWxSadujxRCOIVaAOusZFcCJv/sDhuS9Cp YDYzgtF+pUqroVChJjrlVHo4VO/JYFyq4W5XuN3qC5OKFq5Rr0ElD7rTbt2v3d1WocNC GOD9jUR8AJVbIdAe0afOoE+UCbZOHTJeDJMHPXnGRZUUXGbAO1gBXC+sjHc1yY/x9I+w 3dTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UoD/c5eWFMkSQjf1DWMYgonp8rKVGG+K46pX61bRWFE=; b=kFIzqfUxt6JpzIzlEzQ9pmBbT/qdhIqC7S/r0LM24lWZZlgJXjjC7DarzK8ORTla6q /oEukj53Ry9ydlahAXqBq8+w9NTaEa10U9hzQRyIo95rq4G2uUED0sar5VLKh4l7FLqe SVauAf3d8WTnlusQTyWENsfqQGejX/7nmMmuL0FI+lyp8COC0sUj3AccZ9cji79b5uEb NQvnB6Xdk99buF8ioy5cOaQC7fL+7NboYKECL9ajNDGE2nBW+w8p3y5VoXMgUkaHtvKq njgfS/nUQdr6bqd4sMx+qh0AqSHO2UJtq/zpyZ0a2uBIIoxuemYXSnlJOEx71Ocm1pP9 aJyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530hsvXHLNrwTKMta5mtvxD0pR1lWFSMBuLPUvSKyVHVynFVyGyJ Oc9Rz+4eahBoulPlBiADxjqJ97BaKUAxgvdj1W6Bp74f X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxgdg94CtwB9cCUQy/C7gad6aEw/Gg0UhWi5ZvNPLIu4YWkudPwMp08+0oemX0NzQeEFAB5BYF7aeNjh1YlAks= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:512:: with SMTP id i18mr2508870jar.74.1591869222375; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 02:53:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:53:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Ottavio Caruso Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jKB86mvPz4LGQ X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Qx+s/Tr7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::832 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [10.11 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.06)[1.060]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.97)[0.971]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.58)[0.581]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::832:from]; URIBL_BLACK(7.50)[boxsci.com:email]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:01:07 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:42 AM Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 09:17, Warren Hua wrote: > > > > Hello Ralf, > > > > Since we are discussing with email, can I ask why you choose this > > rocketmail.com email account? > > > > You keep on top-posting and breaking basic and established etiquette. > I wonder what makes you think you are in the position of lecturing. > > As I said before the top posting rule really does fly in the face of convention for most non-technical/mailing list oriented mail users. Thus by ramming it down people's throats (even if they are experienced users) just adds to the aloof/arrogant reputation FreeBSD has (and before someone claims I am a Linux and/or M$ plant I have been a FreeBSD user since the mid-90's and preferred BSD over AT&T Unix since the mid-80's) From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 10:24:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FC5329CA3 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:24:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jKhd2pg8z4MVC for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:24:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mxlmw-1izuHg1uX8-00zEpA; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:23:58 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:23:57 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611122357.5a0a71c6.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:v/YuCZiJImpkbMWUeZJg/pHU4dK8P7/eUkUcu5GIo5pXORrYn+5 y2FLriSOjrEzEQakOLYH0q96l7PgAwcdnD1RZH8EKqQ4B94GLGOCrOs2U5IIO+FFpM31lGJ Hjj7SD+qLG/Ilva+jjIT/TxWKN00Sqp3qxceCXMyBqCBlgk48VhOsetQdX9U4U1zCahDjJe FjTUeHcV7ZIauJV9YLE2A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:BCCJq56wIpU=:ZRsbfIPkTq9l0ni2QegMoq cqD04lSfMZIEIXcrzzToLtGnZJ39cuR0BuJPxKjEHnc1U0qVww1L10UJNTSD5slThjiq0+q1q kY5BqRzF0bCD2oY7ePOyW6NRY9WgU91ownicvZcOviUI2dLUGztvQX2MVdrrZ7puxJeSBZWMt 4xtq27jo4MPEvyHL/PpRASeUGZvLHcB96veS9Z14Dnn7evmU10IWR67EenjWbaW5km+syGXRS 9eogatx/njLYyFYlC6C8Z5Eom4FGeaQ3t2FM4fUDbgPQM0mUAWYC6XP06b5uCM2S53aU/QAi4 6+nhBe4xMRiLXi7jYR20qp5GXNizPFR47hwYgF/nQeXN634esGjHcFZx9bobCaLPIWQAaFopE BRrEp/Q9t67CLdsYdKL11f7/IhGO/SGX5gn1m/jFrED8i7Ix5dfboOK2NR0uVqms1MHNuif/2 U5L8OzVv3Z2YsJG8SIiqV6exuI+BXU9yFEY9DVXksKxNWBAhkomZ+jD8v31wMcgWIXVVLMXwO XKijH9wPlPAQ0mKRo2pdLACO7H6Y1SZd4HKvixhcUIyfZf2vHwOecDQQSYXuvflJZYfQmaZq9 rdiQFCshCoTtVo357mDp5wZxpoA85jNvrdezEfyHdx+XIHqXZmvrkPZ0gzNMq8C65GTbOTG0w rlnpCjz7p0Sftsyc12KEfWTwnHJvlpwqkc1Sn2ji/hl7q0V33/F5cKl/hRwAKf92ua2GdyBsG P4pwJFmlcL9c3ijbdmUt38vC2YQuh1Tc9WIAxmbRtnKMQJuTfJsGhxM5g00ijQGZ7ZW6eXdP6 czQTnCwsea1y9GbqSXUJYwYgDa2cNzOAvoP5vV2U7ndHUbtXUMgbJXZ7Ucf2QJ35cV1FRVV X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jKhd2pg8z4MVC X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.20 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.162:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.17)[0.171]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.01)[0.011]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.62)[0.620]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.187:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:24:03 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:53:30 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > As I said before the top posting rule really does fly in the face of > convention for most non-technical/mailing list oriented mail users. Hmmm... sorry, but I think that this statement is problematic, as it contains a significant contradiction: You use the term "most non-technical/mailing list oriented mail users", but non-technical users won't use a mailing list! The use of mailing lists is quite prominent among advanced users, while non-technical users seem to prefer web forums. So more or less, you can consider anyone using a mailing list to be an advanced (or at least, not "non-technical" user). > Thus > by ramming it down people's throats (even if they are experienced users) > just adds to the aloof/arrogant reputation FreeBSD has [...] I fully agree with your observation regarding "discussion tone". However, it's sometimes helpful to remind users that this list prefers (!) the regular reply style instead of top-posting, but it is definitely not a big problem to get access to and answers from this list if one can, for whatever reason, only top-post (and even better, is aware of this problem). After all, it's _not_ a rule, it's a suggestion that arises from a consensus about preference, nothing more, nothing less. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 10:24:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827DC329F4C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:24:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10009046901.ba766e6095807c3056779f38b154478c@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jKjB0Q2Lz4Mxf for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:24:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10009046901.ba766e6095807c3056779f38b154478c@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591871070; x=1594463070; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=Tai4NQtBsLMNtffVFaL9o9Ux10gA8txn4bbAOFdoKj4=; b=iDHPjfqzxNAj8ivm3ZnUFYLaW/7ceEEADftcFd+J49l6eeCPRbKtvFVvlk0sqkdsGDIS9/7+YfZ4SEm4HQBki4TeV98zj8RakeSuS2yly00J5fbWqpC9K3wUCscjakCadF+AydzRxzau6M1qzonWRCYNGWrDs0qxFrXpWnRXMz8= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDkwNDY5MDEuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:24:20 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:24:19 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jjKNe-0001kT-Ka for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:24:18 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:24:18 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jKjB0Q2Lz4Mxf X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=iDHPjfqz; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10009046901.ba766e6095807c3056779f38b154478c@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10009046901.ba766e6095807c3056779f38b154478c@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.08 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.002]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.382]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10009046901.ba766e6095807c3056779f38b154478c@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org, 4250.82.1d4c10009046901.ba766e6095807c3056779f38b154478c@email-od.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:24:34 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:53:30 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > As I said before the top posting rule really does fly in the face of > convention for most non-technical/mailing list oriented mail users. However it is a convention older than the public internet and one that is very common in mailing lists and universal on USENET. So since this is a mailing list it is a good idea for newcomers to be aware of the conventions and the reasons for them. These are not FreeBSD conventions, nor is asking people to follow it one, they are mailing list and USENET conventions older and wider than FreeBSD. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 10:50:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA9132A9D2 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:50:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jLGc27DWz4Nq1 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:50:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id t9so5738464ioj.13 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:50:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DuEsKcmaSm/xy2pleBt/l+Q02zd5dbs2knJMpGHTkJE=; b=lVZD8crBGN+vo9RzMpeZiVuXljnOxzH1/XmSQxM+IKNB74g2hqxoPUE71fB4f30RuE 8z992ZcSmQlcmc+Ddvf/ftnPcmcj7tSN5QDPssJgWI/U/NYE4d/Q+i6crmcPR1ge0OB4 CGLyxIcBTKIvLwMJgJGaxOtw+98xFinMuRNfNvFnwmaXK+KyKYDKAD7l+LZyCrX52NV1 Bko7CDRJXtsW4H6zWJXjv5j1QC9EXDiuQNPjxoTGZgcKWAXWN8L6bIQeGnfdIq+BfGU+ kG8ss8fLBdqMX0RZKeZdDYKu15svRpi2OftBh/ijIPJJT4Ply9tEUJ5FoZV5sn2gz77P KxUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DuEsKcmaSm/xy2pleBt/l+Q02zd5dbs2knJMpGHTkJE=; b=AGQ8opUOZ6InR/Q4MKZ936j2y1kWAl7aaDrNdr1GgLofMUalO3VPGUs5OSuReXa3Mc lHzHzekNzLD2q04OsstJDwNcPNr+QYlOx6iUYAzeeNa2XalRt9D1eqVwDtPL38sedRex HlEn2e/pxRGmQrqQwDkTHpbv5l2UD+fXVaEMpYYAmAmu8xJHapPZycmblIrVN1eDa161 NbCU5TSjTU96/hTUWN90i1FW+lUTozq0wOVGO59zpzNiBx82CkKVHAdfzgHPtEBwWu9s /ygf9q2b/CaCMEw4OrQVD4nXccjm6mvYKYE32j87spgJ7LeHPhdD62bQPX3Jkeeez2Gk d/HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532T6KR5FOvOkTzNCak9bOdYvZH90IeC4T0hgXxxoMnRKt7uuZqd GjwNUxfhbEhkcVrc/rFZPZILRY6znnxu+14Npac3gHuc8Bc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1GWvORAApDKQ99nSCFg8O7qEDf7XvihGFWvRhiLMnR5RSwuWj7MCoNZUC3xtwWgnAglMuLoGYPdRqirErerw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1243:: with SMTP id o3mr7646619iou.89.1591872599205; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 03:49:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:49:47 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jLGc27DWz4Nq1 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=lVZD8crB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.023]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.29)[-0.287]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:50:00 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 6:24 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:53:30 -0400 > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > As I said before the top posting rule really does fly in the face of > > convention for most non-technical/mailing list oriented mail users. > > However it is a convention older than the public internet and one > that is very common in mailing lists and universal on USENET. So since this > is a mailing list it is a good idea for newcomers to be aware of the > conventions and the reasons for them. These are not FreeBSD conventions, > nor is asking people to follow it one, they are mailing list and USENET > conventions older and wider than FreeBSD. > > The problem is not in informing people of the convention, it is when people post messages like "Stop top-posting!!!" as being their entire message and not even including so much as a please or offering any explanation at all to their comment. That kind of message is just rude no matter how correct or incorrect it is and that is the aloof/arrogant reputation I am talking about. A good example is the original comment by Ottavio I was commenting on "You keep on top-posting and breaking basic and established etiquette." ... "I wonder what makes you think you are in the position of lecturing.". If I was new to FreeBSD and saw someone do that my first reaction would be f**k you (the poster) and this OS I am using something else if people are that rude. As to the comment of how common top posting is or not almost every web based MUA defaults to it and since most people don't use mailing lists they by reflex (even if they know better) will just start typing and then see it is a top-post only after they hit return! (I have done that a number of times for example). It should be noted many discussion forums have also adopted the default of top posting when making a direct quote (for many of the same reasons). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 11:56:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8262932C15E for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:56:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic304-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic304-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jMlZ4d1yz4T0m for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:56:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: GF5p9HMVM1nJqQcVKR6X1t4BmZWbZdGRfV5prD5mGL0pvwcUnBkrv8G8Vfrgt_. MxQUFb_wlf3jLkgowTPdHtMnbeLXUfh5qVNGKyYXR9mmnUQqoXChW9yfVhsI7u.jolI51uYxJ8aE mUGgsRF302C1011dtOkIPgKR.UqFZNZQ9WX4Fl8EYSduRIA8LfZqgWHzR8ay9K5WJbR_ed20sRNi hqvP5eCez0mKqZS8eabeboANJVgEOcf8vB_RZyHhU8gaw74qwYXHC5dSfrZnmMAgFr5MQ_qYoXm. OlbmdWPDCqCy2rNmxJ_eeNiS99rwraaXpeT4QqTSiLl47ThV_4uRc5hfDhIOohr2UxZnR9_OYcrp dqU7ahlQZBL2wF.TAhFhJ.tQHzTmiT0vj6.e_XFNbFVz3gds8kWsbrAi_iWfGFFxKiDQ65Mt.QaU fRV4E9fc9O_Nb3xWu1bKHQQLZMkoFjXdNgQBsBi66SMISUouLMueVb_0ckhZjqQOzzsABwF9Wc9R wosc.aY_j6h1XFqoSJQkjHBh9BnrhZh5roEMrXxKGHUePg.Ijt8IopIsiRZnqPiLg.V1Sjg4Nd7p 9b9qnMaXiwvf8qyFx.uKyd8v8_bMRXD_cgOI2f0zzI_2ePBI65gl4uKxPqAtHsUCQil9u5gG_Qd. use0TEeWXfWiQ_X8d7VUpRqWKGxgeRmpO0M2vKHAyqNn9UR.vA59._M81JPiAooaSU0cPKXlD12d Cyi08SH56iz3MSm840RDkj1kHS_itjTWV9Eq.hkDygy88Rpo_uXPAxYvUp.lWQsvGjCJLMnoNslc QBPdy3wQrCLsUC1R7_8ppTmo.6zFNhvqgTsUcnlBpOWT7b43R_3eFNehPko6a1BKcHGJ2SGquX27 Tfw_724xmB1Ck9JcVuAhFaeFdbnMbWqvwEYxQzxsi0jdSM4UbvX5COcNvO9hOI2bOakTXR9JX7MI ryBonQm1RE.Vo8clDAvVfIBirQNFIIhL.UnVpVCjaiVl71v3pJzcEz.PAP9zF6VFQRxYTeKs2oRn PhD1p3PiWbOHUndX5UWxQ2zl0PcdRg5X6l_NAIo5Qys3R2EG.PBRZZij1Bs8ozT4xp47TpUpoUYK 46q41XsTODYL6W.U1eTmOJ5yS0d5Gn7pQsmF9uprK9qgzPoZq5gcLCb_hjaCDYEq_kwB2dZK7hPv EJClvyLf4rO7jo00V8F.REPkwdrzDsdqSso82cCFfB7IdPMlHR27BjKzCWY5DDFBx4e2HVsW1Nns 5RnAgQJYSN1BGir2C4wmTLLWphz7wQjDEseVS.5Ac5b4zQMY4EqIAon65nzpi9TCCwaLhdjgSu9g lwKsYheo0HmFfrNNlGZG53iOW4LWomcrvUZzlpdyX9cVL4GMZiEZRoCShjk7DSWjnDmW34uXu0kD bSkkPcNQ- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:56:41 +0000 Received: by smtp425.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 56545bf98ac349ea8e757ebd7bc05d81; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:56:39 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:56:39 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jMlZ4d1yz4T0m X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.94 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.147:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.43)[-0.433]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.026]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.147:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:56:43 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:49:47 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >As to the comment of how common top posting is or not almost every web >based MUA defaults to it Could you mention a few FLOSS BSD or Linux MUAs that by default sets the cursor above the quoted text? On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:17:45 +0800, Warren Hua wrote: >Since we are discussing with email, can I ask why you choose this=20 >rocketmail.com email account? =46rom my email addresses I'm using those addresses that do cause no or less issues with a mailing list. This could change from one day to another, not only related to DKIM. A few weeks back Zoho stopped allowing to post to a mailing list, due to an unusual amount of traffic. Actually it wasn't much traffic at all. Apart from this it's not easy for me to get a new free as in beer address, since it nowadays usually requires a mobile phone number, to get a verification SMS. Other than Apple, PayPal, Online-Banks etc., free as in beer ISPs don't send spoken SMS to landline. FWIW I'm not against easy-to-transport computer devices, I'm using those a lot https://i.imgur.com/R4Bc4hl.jpg , it's just that I dislike to be connected to cellular networks. In short, Rocketmail works with this mailing list and doesn't cause any serious issue. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 12:03:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2D132CEE3 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:03:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jMvS19gRz4Tl9 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:03:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5030D933 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:03:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yuripv.dev; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=b w0iMCb7QJQxX2fGMc4xk0Lz/deMpYd+xHTfhWgAJAE=; b=LQgKi9wMSDiD9aRaa Q8YOmaMdnwRFpV7GXdGHwS/OV57OX8OyC80y7YCrnt/epyDETrWuBjck82f1IMSU SG+qr1+bZV/qJJhM8O/Wv3Mgad4XU1U8a3gBMRoliZ4ifE/Ngv2KtKssd69UHGA/ n9HMhKZHcD1iPSguL1VTBCLHhfwXJABeEW9OfwTyGFpteO6KE/l3MABcZhN9qXZc UFZn4PgSMugM6npTW4XiNpJRq2nuDuQZ4A97d8jl0SnC6Wv1ToDl2QFgflgrEevk VU6PjGXByvssT2s+7Fbo7Dp6Bkdsu0tOGwFTxEUPU/+/YOkeeICFRbkomaViCmb7 G2xXw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=bw0iMCb7QJQxX2fGMc4xk0Lz/deMpYd+xHTfhWgAJ AE=; b=WIIEx7Q0a7SuaUSJLOBT2BJTuEUAACI1mvY/2f+NtB+fPr+OQlEtptyvi wVOK9CXPp0I7BHKLMIIBQ+GQ3YU9fGFFCGeqqWnwrToY+XDoqEyh9g98FwhOyl/y 7orgQONUgSArIxUrvbR2Do1TbQQ64r7qRTAzEqx4wtmcH2ELpJ8Oig2vnVTpU5Xz JTtgJV6noMcuMEnNUTYjDJCFqWuZP5OqRIqVkZixzFn2iR5QhhjbP1OUaL8omXY3 tKFMfKpJ8Hsv3xVEAGa6h27MU97TCNu0U6o11jVYuSNSY9T07mYnpDf6oP/YJrlQ BeffXnzhHSgmCCqmiiMnowfgLs+OA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudehledgvddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpegjuhhrihcurfgrnhhkohhvuceohihurhhiphhvseihuhhr ihhpvhdruggvvheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffehvdekgeeijeevledvfffgveeuve fggfejhfelueeuveetvddvvdfgieetffetnecukfhppeeluddrvdegtddruddvgedrudef jeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeihuh hrihhpvheshihurhhiphhvrdguvghv X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.6] (unknown [91.240.124.137]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 58DD63280065 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:03:27 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jMvS19gRz4Tl9 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yuripv.dev header.s=fm1 header.b=LQgKi9wM; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=WIIEx7Q0; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yuripv@yuripv.dev designates 64.147.123.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yuripv@yuripv.dev X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.87 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[yuripv.dev:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:64.147.123.21]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[64.147.123.21:from]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yuripv.dev]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yuripv.dev:+,messagingengine.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.22)[-0.220]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.53)[0.526]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.34)[-0.339]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.21:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:03:33 -0000 Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:49:47 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> As to the comment of how common top posting is or not almost every web >> based MUA defaults to it > > Could you mention a few FLOSS BSD or Linux MUAs that by default sets > the cursor above the quoted text? FWIW, Thunderbird does that by default in new accounts, you have to configure it to do otherwise. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 12:15:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607FC32D7E8 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:15:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jN915clnz4VNr for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:15:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id r2so6032291ioo.4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:15:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iQC8dFk7MuE02p0Iz0PkjM9yQf13pFraloMg1m/l56k=; b=mrqKJlgE02yDM/faraKdeveax+85313ODlzsTR2/mhjSFUXQBk5DO7c+MfnLBFh/GL UlutsQQK7Sbgtj+COLMhe1D9yP4fAYdZr89LYLeMGScP4Tczy7LKLisKGMeiBurzWIdx AqnlIZ+A3pyHKf0Ok2iB91EspG3yozg3wE2ST75KbUk0iJ17MdIw89tUKcUUJjYqbQ+a bZnVPBQqQk4v6TlPgV40haQJth5mkLOnf6n57+ZDGUSkGUTt1OVuS/Zu3LZ5NlWMDADS mFJXOUZ8gbk+9yYVLhb3+ScZPCH9aGMLel3+gpzGH9GUnK4x4ZR9wiYojmYtbMriQezp DT0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iQC8dFk7MuE02p0Iz0PkjM9yQf13pFraloMg1m/l56k=; b=RRTHMy7N2pxDECEV4FvItkMYuDOBTZjlimugHTjQoYnUjIxJ31SngWjEINPYN5StQM eMiC9WSGVPi8/w2AZlhNNb4THGEVh3zHPmeK3pOOdfggj2q2Tf9fMpe7N6pdu1z9Vnxl 5oFWQemYtP0g2f9wnQGISLNMAWyquLxAQRK8dBHPgI3Dsybey6pZ+mgeVK+EuCzUSn3H wGV7VFFRdZ7ukD3u9ne67AtkGho2AsB96Po4PnRh6iOxQwFc0VpfTy03jY6UujiQ0FIw wAHwF1SGa/S6KPq6lEu9SkhYiypcnhSKqFrDottREJyj9v7PLoxvIyIMwfI0WKa5smK/ IS0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532fdM7c83O89BqQhsXhVK32rrCbphmsLn1bnm9uB7EZgwdRqyJW h/s8T8WX2GNVOgwuUhm5TQwEXAOPuUxVsda/nPpM3aysM6A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw/gxz16Ny2ClCZUX+/xvgK8rwr/RxvD9+FSZsAZJGkyLgzs9QM1FIdrLS2CXXuCs62ppjzHbKzzMBEu+rsmTc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:290:: with SMTP id c16mr2983546jaq.34.1591877716566; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:15:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> In-Reply-To: <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Yuri Pankov Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jN915clnz4VNr X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=mrqKJlgE; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.80 / 15.00]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:email]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.59)[0.585]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.71)[0.714]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.50)[0.499]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:15:19 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 8:03 AM Yuri Pankov wrote: > Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:49:47 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> As to the comment of how common top posting is or not almost every web > >> based MUA defaults to it > > > > Could you mention a few FLOSS BSD or Linux MUAs that by default sets > > the cursor above the quoted text? > > FWIW, Thunderbird does that by default in new accounts, you have to > configure it to do otherwise. > So does every other GUI/web MUA. I don't know why it is so hard for the FreeBSD community to get that conventions have changed (for better or worse I don't know but they have). I have even had people complain about not top-posting because "I can't find your reply" and thus almost the entire world (except for a few technical mailing lists) either accepts or encourages top-posting. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15648928 https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-masses-utilize-the-top-posting-style-in-email-replies https://www.jefftk.com/p/abandoning-bottom-posting -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 12:22:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2660532DA1F for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:22:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jNJx3lRnz4WDc for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:22:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D848A8 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:22:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yuripv.dev; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=k M2Lo54JShZbANby3HTxAEo7FalFrDCchQmYiChul9k=; b=eVu7VOMJL/kyEZiSN N25+TqYTvHuKe84T6+loXAYWpu2123f/vXnkM41/2kdgcwQZCsbe00TZdiSMez+b 0oGKEYxmYvZhWiv9zpfBeA1T5YLHD20OoISkKgQWp6gcWi39qWuB2eT353TyccNs 7eBRAXD07Vf/ITi9MOhTORMc7vjNx06hswj7rWsBMPhLlupIc75KBNq9e4nmIKJT lVUIN30b4bpgLZv/FW+kNPF7b3lCYytKfAaSNpER8pDOfqWFkQhAxnQMlDG80ekO qjTqvVa/YkO8cBKakbR2QYnfqPM2UrBBiL1rEr77H85iUT9tW+D0E7g+Kc8rlA2o qQIlQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=kM2Lo54JShZbANby3HTxAEo7FalFrDCchQmYiChul 9k=; b=UR32vtiXiH73Ol4lNFBnv8IcdYXP6MM9ceq6UDyC2YC1XJRSHMZSBn5cy Jd62Ia4DjVZyGEDqkZEaMX88iHnpsn/ZR8mgCcNcHI+6zHiTrjpsW2AV4h68yceV 0fzR1ZrdmJdRrX19uHlnpQSlQU06LdHSgAP9/2y9nAfphQEozIctgRGGY3cgkStc CBI/oRk6RwPsfTmICjquoDhgUupEZl87Jx5V5d+3nEAIfrEcIDAhuMEQRpWxtCZ8 qUicNUIK3KHwVqPzN8f51R1KKn0nZOAywZbZbmTK1HvWAVEYR9x/KVAs2U8brPvA CFf96kxGgoydFzDSnmB6JfvLSV5/A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudehledgvdehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpegjuhhrihcurfgrnhhkohhvuceohihurhhiphhvseihuhhr ihhpvhdruggvvheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfeetfedvudeggfelgfdvvdegleekvd ekgfffhfetudeutddttedthedtffeffedunecuffhomhgrihhnpeihtghomhgsihhnrght ohhrrdgtohhmpdhquhhorhgrrdgtohhmpdhjvghffhhtkhdrtghomhenucfkphepledurd dvgedtrdduvdegrddufeejnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehm rghilhhfrhhomhephihurhhiphhvseihuhhrihhpvhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.6] (unknown [91.240.124.137]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id ED5633280060 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:22:06 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jNJx3lRnz4WDc X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yuripv.dev header.s=fm1 header.b=eVu7VOMJ; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=UR32vtiX; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yuripv@yuripv.dev designates 64.147.123.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yuripv@yuripv.dev X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[yuripv.dev:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:64.147.123.21:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yuripv.dev]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[64.147.123.21:from]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yuripv.dev:+,messagingengine.com:+]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.21)[0.209]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.30)[-0.297]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.73)[0.727]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.21:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:22:10 -0000 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 8:03 AM Yuri Pankov wrote: > >> Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >>> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:49:47 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>>> As to the comment of how common top posting is or not almost every web >>>> based MUA defaults to it >>> >>> Could you mention a few FLOSS BSD or Linux MUAs that by default sets >>> the cursor above the quoted text? >> >> FWIW, Thunderbird does that by default in new accounts, you have to >> configure it to do otherwise. >> > > So does every other GUI/web MUA. I don't know why it is so hard for the > FreeBSD community to get that conventions have changed (for better or worse > I don't know but they have). I have even had people complain about not > top-posting because "I can't find your reply" and thus almost the entire > world (except for a few technical mailing lists) either accepts or > encourages top-posting. > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15648928 > https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-masses-utilize-the-top-posting-style-in-email-replies > https://www.jefftk.com/p/abandoning-bottom-posting I was just providing an example of (bad) defaults (it also encourages new users to use HTML) in Thunderbird. WRT top-posting, I strongly disagree with this, having $work use Outlook almost exclusively and getting really hard times finding who answers what in *technical* discussions with more than 2-3 replies -- I'm spending A LOT more time than needed on this. I would agree on using top-posting when you are sending some request and have your manager reply with "Approved" on top, that's the only situation I can think of when it's acceptable. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 12:24:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E28E32DB3C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:24:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jNN720FGz4WJF for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:24:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com with SMTP id e20so2541097qvu.0 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:24:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=ZtKxTkc+TT8hXBf54LS34fmmF0s7uv5DLEILlwW6AkU=; b=Ve1tN6lwdwYS9F6FmtEKAaCWO0TmR3FgniYJaJ39oEoAsHWmqYHPKI7RPm3LNNLJNS WFg7q83fJGSFCNxK5sC4H9zmo7aaAB4NVBhH8G5R/E5/JpY1F2yev+NQhktc6Wf00/5V olE2IJbuLPvdgFxNgO5pVTCojDDl2oDr8c84k= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=ZtKxTkc+TT8hXBf54LS34fmmF0s7uv5DLEILlwW6AkU=; b=RCaXpQVbM/nLD+BIuLHTraRed4DB8iY9KjjFgsutq7JohAHg1WQ5KMwfFXkH5QKXQp ZgJm5y0t16Wi1wnHCGAnwB8hUs1GqXxaOba+jgwKT2fg04hO1U+E2FsCI8oc7tYWjdoQ iLk5g6za6c8cf2cHh8KQOcMSAV3DUJAPf4huYCUg4IprJ3oPSMqDJHRPlDB0i7spRdcF GmQAmTWm2BGNlmw7xy/06XpJvDLo96u3aRt5cJK0b4eP5viLNcuOFV4Kp7E1D94tyKna +F/J0624Rv6NuPaJv+A1OzTAj8Q/W6giUOwkqXJgL1PVCammTzOhGMGPjV9UVXiGUxzA 7b0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53018g6qs0LH4yPp+CpGzLLaZFMXN5zs6VY9bHZLC6o2k51pEazW zK7pzASvFdBJeOg4PuUOjBD+H6EYanM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJztwAl3lgyC0EUhbnVprMfZBjAoPOjLN7l1lqMcpX5jNpMPYagRBreZCOFagyDVLHWM5SdiUA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:1705:: with SMTP id db5mr7543882qvb.14.1591878293898; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s70sm2075170qke.80.2020.06.11.05.24.52 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49jNN32TPrz2lGL for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:24:43 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/UUojp6f22VGJecXidGCAlDL"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jNN720FGz4WJF X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=Ve1tN6lw; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.88 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.51)[-0.506]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.017]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:24:56 -0000 --Sig_/UUojp6f22VGJecXidGCAlDL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:56:58 +0200, Polytropon commented: >On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: =20 >> > However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient >> > it is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why >> > sometimes replies are send "twice"=E2=80=A6 =20 > >Attention! Here we have a severe case of "MUA ate my homework"! > >Your MUA did modify (!) my original message, so the quote is no >longer correct (as it imples something that I didn't write). > >Aspect 1 is no big problem: It removed my newlines and put >everything into one long line. This is no big deal with >regular text ("paragraph text"), but would be with code, >or something laid out to be a table or a diagram in text. I think that could also be attributed to the fact that many users configure their MUSs to use a specific font and/or font size that affects the final display of the received email. I prefer a larger font myself since my eye sight isn't what it was 20 years ago. >Aspect 2, and that _is_ a problem: I wrote "...", which is >three periods, and your MUA turned it into "=E2=80=A6", which is >an UTF-8 ellipsis. If UTF was used to begin with, that problem would evaporate. >Aspect 2a, a sign of inconsistency, is that your MUA did >not change my " double quotation marks (inch symbols) into >correct typographical quotation marks. And how could it? >Which rules would apply? I'm in Germany, so our quotation >marks are "two down" and "two up", while in English, you >usually how "two in" and "two out", something like this, >incorrectly simplified: > > ,,The german style.'' > > ``The english style.'' I believe the 'American' style would be: U+201C and U-201D : =E2=80=9CAmerican style=E2=80=9D In any case, I have not seen your 'magical character transpositions" in my everyday use. Perhaps it is a systemic problem with your MUA. >And there are of course differences in AE and BE. You can >also see that I used tabs and empty lines for format my >reply. If a MUA eats those, big problem. > >A typographically skilled person will even say that using >something like =E2=80=9Cthat=E2=80=9C is wrong (uses same symbol for start >and end of quoting). > >Similarly, MUAs could mess with the use of dashes ("-" or >"=E2=80=93") or apostrophes ("'" or "=E2=80=99"). > >All those considerations of course lead to breaking my >carefully crafted message in plain ASCII (not even using >ISO-8859-1) and lifting it into the UTF-8 multibyte universe >with all its unsolved questions. ;-) I use UTF-8 and find it solves problems, not creates them. >> A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied >> sender if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the >> message was from a list, [...] =20 > >As I mentioned, this will only work as long as the relevant >headers are intact. If some MUA mangles them on the way (yes, >I'm looking at you, MICROS~1 products!), this will no longer >work. And as I've been saying this, MICROS~1 products are >also known for changing message content (see above, aspect 2), >and even mangling timestamps and timezones. "Citation need for products post 2010" I am aware the the latest versions of MS Outlook can be configured to reformat long lines, (the removal of soft line breaks) and I actually fine that quite useful. I use MS Outlook for my job and I find receiving and then trying to read a long, detailed message in lines restricted to <=3D 80 characters a real PIA when I have a 32" HD screen. Of course, YMMV. >Oh, and MUAs don't have to be smart. It's much better if the >people using them are smart. That's fully sufficient. :-) And rarely seen in the wild. :) >> [...] and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 keys in >> precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. =20 I put that into the same category as being expected to write a cryptic 30 line XML document to get a simple device to work. >Which is inconvenient for users who _wish_ to be CCed in the >typical "reply to all" manner. Simple solution, join the mailing group. don't put the burden on the email recipient. Take responsibility for your own actions. I know, extremely rare these days. >If I remember correctly, "reply to all" has never been a real >problem on the FreeBSD mailing lists. Users can set up filtering >rules to remove duplicate messages they might receive during a >thread, or remind their counterparts to pay attention to use >the "reply to mailing list" button. Unfortunately, some sneaky 'repliers' include the intended recipient's name in the "To:" field that complicates filtering messages. >Sadly, Sylpheed has a prominent "reply to all" button, whereas >"reply to mailing list" is a drop-down element next to the >regular "reply" button. So you can guess which one gets used >the most. Claws-Mail allows a user to create custom folders with predefined "To:". "CC:" and "Reply-To:" fields, among others. That totally eliminates all the guess work, assuming the end-user bothered to properly configure it. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/UUojp6f22VGJecXidGCAlDL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7iIowACgkQOHMGOIfe xWT0tgf/bveb2mNr5OMXC2uLd2tE2PG6HGC61Vifd/HvBHUQXrPOAUk9VhIZ66nE niXQqXZOD4E9D62TLrOd2b0ZFL7y91MUrY8FGTPzIQC1RGc5EtXD67LiqXuNiqVr tdaDMtxvIJmepv+vAzWOe6xdxmDJOpWSyDPRs3v7n59LyxuUozit5zS2x18B3M/2 yj91doSIt9W0Rd7dQNNCg/BEdxtzzQs/wOAkEYaumXG1Flg6tm4QgXf9itzUFrPw NpifLnXe3nHfvASs0cDFhxDlgbGP7bM2HMtTxMgTQQanAaN++xp5uxk+qPenZ9cY eDyzQuorvXMKjBal0SMZcsk7z4PlmQ== =026Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/UUojp6f22VGJecXidGCAlDL-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 12:30:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E40132E238 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:30:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jNVt4fSVz4X0M for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:30:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id d27so4389431qtg.4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:30:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=P7DU+5ajJ3bpqott3Nyb6GYsDESw0DWjk6pS9YY8/Zo=; b=n+6HMVy69snCq3Fw9Gy7MVGtVA2oHBG2h1dm84WurZKlcCa49fskJMhydZ5ofS6UzA /A2EsZfyuM19bXLskzZ6oNEPiOpTjl/2c7hcZoA8OrqAaVs8jQmdw+vcCHu+6mKZGsHD 0QbMJCcIrkMYmRXayl9jVNRX8tQpjHEDB+zog= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=P7DU+5ajJ3bpqott3Nyb6GYsDESw0DWjk6pS9YY8/Zo=; b=aZxx7q9fiA0gVjB5/lt7p4Go8C2rl8diq9UGFSUl5C4WO+nCGWhStaezPzcpe5iQlm VVgdkPWQqTyTd6L6rJWesslXMmj6UjIF/SUAJowE4riZGFDslgDzgTWt42UnIFxLHf27 emF1POm8VW7tSkwejAuGBPAn4pNGrmSdBQFmJHE2TLW3ShlqI+QK8QDPRrnn/gxNvc4g /C0XdNCwYlLhZ2mlHVw+YjPLpmoqf3C3MHT8BWry3K1dWMIO1TxwF/sdkkkmGFUPtVaU +ezSXUhnU6EkeoWaDOKj8anB4vtGpsKpCcZ2BkUSK23X1yogNs4d0294+6jXTTRSqs9D KhsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Vm7irwlQ4xwsKFRSFjWUJsDfK2ZymkZ/A6dh8QvXD6LEzu+YL Uq/HxbQIkYRN/6KCFY4ajwtdq+45hxw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwsfbDb8WWKqrilobe4VfPjXswgH9gVY1sfJJaUs1yk7TzVAjFW1c0yYoZJ8we71VTwXrJN3w== X-Received: by 2002:aed:2789:: with SMTP id a9mr8208492qtd.76.1591878645294; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v69sm2055879qkb.96.2020.06.11.05.30.43 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49jNVp6M4fz2lGY for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:30:41 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611083041.0000039c@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200611122357.5a0a71c6.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611122357.5a0a71c6.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/G8thrFr5DK=Iu.bz2HTRpCT"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jNVt4fSVz4X0M X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=n+6HMVy6; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::831 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.94 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.45)[-0.449]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.010]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::831:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:30:49 -0000 --Sig_/G8thrFr5DK=Iu.bz2HTRpCT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:23:57 +0200, Polytropon commented: >On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:53:30 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> As I said before the top posting rule really does fly in the face of >> convention for most non-technical/mailing list oriented mail users. >> =20 > >Hmmm... sorry, but I think that this statement is problematic, >as it contains a significant contradiction: You use the >term "most non-technical/mailing list oriented mail users", >but non-technical users won't use a mailing list! The use >of mailing lists is quite prominent among advanced users, >while non-technical users seem to prefer web forums. So >more or less, you can consider anyone using a mailing list >to be an advanced (or at least, not "non-technical" user). Nothing snobbish or elitist about that comment. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/G8thrFr5DK=Iu.bz2HTRpCT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7iI/EACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSCjQf/d7vfhfTVUJKJJ1M6UAsxHwygtLvBibpeFg1onZ4P4IIRQkFfHQ8WRn2T pG1ZUIsC/9oXCqKUoTlaNBLrLWEFGAk9R1+eE5qAlOX3AItiTxIew/cebN0Hd/dO 2RcSzYdD+ON0Sh55BiDKDcPDCaV8743sxiJIlQDxNr721L9b54X2cdeMCYKpa73k guV/l/d1Bdf3J+6gy0X/EC/rWZzOiTLfbgHyIjT4MaShi0Yuwx+2rjkpYy9clWTJ w28xGmKDZsdoBjxGcxVDXl7aSkZKE2HHJWXbL+MGxL7F8BCJN0cCmGONGladnyrh aThEq3p9d9qOS+8Ve3wTRn+NCl1g2w== =lpIq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/G8thrFr5DK=Iu.bz2HTRpCT-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 12:30:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B802F32E34B for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:30:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic312-25.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic312-25.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jNW02lg1z4Wx0 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:30:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: sXzg7vIVM1kAUUrztFHlXevmHMdA3fjMJQJM7y786dW.YsLDOkyeEeEJ5sbaDVz VcLhsGVt0XygqZC5r8h_enbNrWBBQaS18smTmSvVYhDhGdroGZYypBgxcRY7MTcElCUwUrLFI13Q wk9EnHIdErJESaQkeItAoBte8BbNAsFD0wQUhNz1Ywu5_2Ucv_J1XxKk2i2yzfO5lktaz2W9hTRY meheh87xGFnvLnfObQpoWGlypwfbzeKEOvey115jW3EhgyXxvdsEk6WWUSjnIwuEtPKxJTFKsR_I WvSaOUx2fXLXsZ60ny9agm7lxM5L0ukPLXMjxUSb_vdj0EdChfJdYmgILRUIEm4Tgx9OLprhLXjZ .m8yjmdgv4a0_To9N4z5d7GGILp_9VZDehKcNftNIa5HygdBp.7S9k7S68BcVH5vXO0Wjv81KBqM ckKJtYIkjCZc3.5kQC6gO0WIyfKF2GYlsd4pUaET2Ul4KqSXregxBZDr_cTAUwE9KKxahLcRb74J erT1ewbFOTd3kMK0SrcbRQdES1C3zyhvdihvy4unxrGkkdx1idSPUos4PJRNVAAbLQrv6xhEpi.A w3KnNwfQ.isezH3UvJET8Sw.hVoIhpe2uVZjb0b14Aa5gmX3.NIPuU6k6Kt2JQzQAYy0.EuaSClV QBzF0hjGSKf1U.ChHX__TMzQZGdh6lWjFmJhG0tmj97ESAH3LDWPY10nbAEy.D_RwTY8mognJb_q jDpehjK89tAonfqi_y9qIzpNDbWS_3SUyMa8RW6oOrRN7U_0L859O8OSXIGGU4BZ9j0nM3XPMnaJ pDDHZX5yLA_73ls_8WHcm1vwJ9sX6a.GbUH_4jj02qp_FTDLfNuklrHFE2mo47unXmExsvjklrcz D9P2uyk9Iw9_uDd7gDqp.LGYWhwWERAMwEMmisygRwImGjwyyVoPQWtn_ux4pyElXub6VJM8SnCN hPyqo0NhxTKiJ_dEu46ors51bsUPsvykJQyN3xt99F4N4zNF1IHsBIGb5ecF_MPBUxL8slu.z_8Y vE5cQamNFPvUzNswienqfBF6pw8BGOPUIlHTw27L08pZgr_xw.giw_A.AVECKSCAEi84TW436rnt hxmwPObxXu_vw10ZYISU4p2eTXeY4doyzclpBBSH1Akz2x7brGG_T4M4CTqXoSNSCI3RM8W3Tui. hs_7pUgZ4uYF1prPdnDJHxWNkUcZDGv6kJOWjBn4wD9vqxm2nlXnf..P969EcZxqlLgIn_GnMWms uvlkJs5TZsNHtmyGBtkz9sP7H_dB8rMBpYshaVSJmJNHfjVknTv123nStr21GAJTjFqCpMvDbScS WpeEL4OdePvMLz4JKjwdfg7pgeWskOuMndhWkypau3cQ9sESgaX.niTYnoqFIzX5qrAWBhLoZYDo 11koKaPsJ Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:30:49 +0000 Received: by smtp425.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b69a14f9a890c71fc574f5762572e8de; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:30:45 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:30:46 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jNW02lg1z4Wx0 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.24 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:email]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[rocketmail.com,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.20)[-0.204]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.94)[0.938]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.992]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.178.96:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.178.96:from]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:30:54 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 8:03 AM Yuri Pankov wrote: > >> Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >> > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:49:47 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> >> As to the comment of how common top posting is or not almost >> >> every web based MUA defaults to it >> > >> > Could you mention a few FLOSS BSD or Linux MUAs that by default >> > sets the cursor above the quoted text? >> >> FWIW, Thunderbird does that by default in new accounts, you have to >> configure it to do otherwise. > >So does every other GUI/web MUA. I don't know why it is so hard for >the FreeBSD community to get that conventions have changed (for better >or worse I don't know but they have). I have even had people complain >about not top-posting because "I can't find your reply" and thus >almost the entire world (except for a few technical mailing lists) >either accepts or encourages top-posting. I seriously doubt that there are a lot GUI or TUI MUAs available for BSD or Linux that do that by default. Just mentioning one, Thunderbird and then claiming every other does, too, is weak. I'm not aware of one. Evolution doesn't, Sylpheed doesn't, Claws-Mail doesn't. IIRC KMail and Wanderlust didn't when I used them. Probably no other does, I just mentioned those I'm still using or I used a while back. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 12:50:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F2132ED2D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:50:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jNy151Y1z4Xnk for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:50:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MHndY-1jfVJJ3Riw-00EuYJ for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:48 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:46 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:KMBZ1iY6xiOeaZXeUoyhtghBx9qcWJMqAEIo1JeiYD8fi9LLAQ6 e+bvjdXjHu7XXFvaRMcbjvN2djAbedMUJIkWRtOiThAV2HqrzYgqqO8w9JnN1kDb9oDhms/ pXLBEzXmE3IWRwicgQAxOo7tTO6YPRD4uDwoUU1sF0HaaF8G8ecsqH77qp/yhInZfs9qCPT RhpZ3ggXNsNxAFTIFMb9w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:k/LbFeiS0oo=:uwYcQ68Soutv5kqj0C5GHx FSVwPlFQ9oIEtYukcBO6A+xffbJ94VnMNigUOUymsdiuyFQXMhfzQyIQjFOSPWB0JCPXceQ23 65BSpXb69Xgc0W78P9qj264hiqPX7sjnj1qXlxMXJpfIklUb9iARe06cjIAEoxH40t11gpjDi jNBG6oKCNuj/NZ3zTnSmlNQQIWVzyppagsKvtt+QgMqeWt24uG6+B5I6ChGcrel7QLQVcljt/ M9WL8zYPMip50L4e1IUMSws7lJG6o9AfyT+BzPTviBCwf6F0hjo2zTDFRk49EFu1ySKVu5pB1 IEfLimQNaTCon1D/blOpvrwplqZob+pR4GJ+nCWj9mpXBmWWVK5QdJ3bRhYyHc3vb9FLFQ2BS x2EPh8IHVg9Qi+2BavsSaVa6isyBqKxDzmddJZDaV1tmVrnUZUjDvGCZC3q7fe+qO0hsxk1yc Lj92l9mKrwM9at9Ya3jwfSmNStx24YShZ3g87lyQJ5PqbSHuVetU00gMHQCGhFqSJeQ7YcCjb VoogF1ZI/Ne3PGITHVZcDyb/cjrn8jerlI7VRyw2b4Q1r/sEOloiGUq5PhU3Ldiv9z2inM5oF uFvWx5eKQ1ErPk5A+ICujY3QH9d2cFQ5ikb/FJD5zaf6RJSCndHFgmD0A+fWIriWuAM6LnhXh S+WvAiaSk/k8e72mahWVfhkgyDXGGXKEDEv6jAcvsmOjwlEEn4fgCCvWezet16nr2Wfe9uDwk YPApK5SVza3jxOUZ+pFdWB85RSp1BMDSewjeudWM2wFvn9YcurqDdp6l6SHYe0AQ9+UqvwVSP 59TfOXKXKy4HLKim/XWEQq9nM0PXkMtjZoKNXzk9j7BgomBPRiYj6d1sLKSGO/DSZ+XhJIH X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jNy151Y1z4Xnk X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:50:50 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:24:43 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:56:58 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: > >> > However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient > >> > it is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why > >> > sometimes replies are send "twice"… > > > >Attention! Here we have a severe case of "MUA ate my homework"! > > > >Your MUA did modify (!) my original message, so the quote is no > >longer correct (as it imples something that I didn't write). > > > >Aspect 1 is no big problem: It removed my newlines and put > >everything into one long line. This is no big deal with > >regular text ("paragraph text"), but would be with code, > >or something laid out to be a table or a diagram in text. > > I think that could also be attributed to the fact that many users > configure their MUSs to use a specific font and/or font size that > affects the final display of the received email. I prefer a larger font > myself since my eye sight isn't what it was 20 years ago. > > >Aspect 2, and that _is_ a problem: I wrote "...", which is > >three periods, and your MUA turned it into "…", which is > >an UTF-8 ellipsis. > > If UTF was used to begin with, that problem would evaporate. But it wasn't. It started (at least here) with ye olde boring 7-bit ASCII. > >Aspect 2a, a sign of inconsistency, is that your MUA did > >not change my " double quotation marks (inch symbols) into > >correct typographical quotation marks. And how could it? > >Which rules would apply? I'm in Germany, so our quotation > >marks are "two down" and "two up", while in English, you > >usually how "two in" and "two out", something like this, > >incorrectly simplified: > > > > ,,The german style.'' > > > > ``The english style.'' > > I believe the 'American' style would be: > U+201C and U-201D : “American style” > > In any case, I have not seen your 'magical character transpositions" in > my everyday use. Perhaps it is a systemic problem with your MUA. Note: I was replying to @lbutlr whose MUA malquoted my initial message, i. e., it said "Polytropon commented" but I didn't use the characters the header claimed I did - it used "…" in _my_ message where I wrote "...". So it's not _my_ MUA which has a problem. Check the headers and you'll find this confirmed. If I wish to use "..." instead of "…", and I use "those" quotes instead of “those”, then I do so for a good reason. I don't have to explain or justify that reason. I just depend on the MUA to keep my intention, and Sylpheed did. However, @lbutlr's MUA did something nonstandard (i. e., modifying original message content in a very selective and inconsistent way). If I intend something to be typographically perfect, I don't use email for that, because it just doesn't work. (Similarly, the web isn't "pixel-perfect" - you can try to get near that goal, but you won't always arrive there.) Similarly, if I include things like µV or kΩ or maybe even Яблоко, no MUA, on _no_ side of the conversation, should change that into something else _and_ claiming that it's what _I_ wrote. Oh, and yes, “American style” is the correct form I wanted to mention. The German ones are „those“. But you can also have one of the «other» ones. :-) If MUAs start changing original message content and attribute that to the original author, what's next? Changing words? > >And there are of course differences in AE and BE. You can > >also see that I used tabs and empty lines for format my > >reply. If a MUA eats those, big problem. > > > >A typographically skilled person will even say that using > >something like “that“ is wrong (uses same symbol for start > >and end of quoting). > > > >Similarly, MUAs could mess with the use of dashes ("-" or > >"–") or apostrophes ("'" or "’"). > > > >All those considerations of course lead to breaking my > >carefully crafted message in plain ASCII (not even using > >ISO-8859-1) and lifting it into the UTF-8 multibyte universe > >with all its unsolved questions. ;-) > > I use UTF-8 and find it solves problems, not creates them. Depends on which side of the program you're sitting at. ;-) > >Oh, and MUAs don't have to be smart. It's much better if the > >people using them are smart. That's fully sufficient. :-) > > And rarely seen in the wild. :) That must be the "shortage on IT experts" everyone is raging about... ;-) > >If I remember correctly, "reply to all" has never been a real > >problem on the FreeBSD mailing lists. Users can set up filtering > >rules to remove duplicate messages they might receive during a > >thread, or remind their counterparts to pay attention to use > >the "reply to mailing list" button. > > Unfortunately, some sneaky 'repliers' include the intended recipient's > name in the "To:" field that complicates filtering messages. Yes, that is the kind of problem I was talking about. It's not just the correct construction and preservation of headers like From:, To:, Cc:, and Reply-To:, it's also the "metadata" of thread-keeping (references). > >Sadly, Sylpheed has a prominent "reply to all" button, whereas > >"reply to mailing list" is a drop-down element next to the > >regular "reply" button. So you can guess which one gets used > >the most. > > Claws-Mail allows a user to create custom folders with predefined > "To:". "CC:" and "Reply-To:" fields, among others. That totally > eliminates all the guess work, assuming the end-user bothered to > properly configure it. Nobody configures MUAs these days. In a web-driven world, users tend to keep using the defaults of the provider. The same applies to application MUAs where the defaults aren't checked and adjusted to match real use cases. That's why default settings are so important: They can change whole generations' views about what's "normal" and what's not... Nobody expects the spanish inquisition. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 12:56:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5600132EC5E for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:56:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jP4W3NbBz4Ynr for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:56:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id w9so4437755qtv.3 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:56:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=hGglVzNGJDT9mca8/kt1Cn+sITOK0f3PD1KTldXG8GI=; b=Vv6oI60VeV8wrLHmonZA1b5TuvNwl0FMp6G/bp4QAGdMTY7BWE7/Ck0A2uaYPMZ6ER gcx1sZG3EDOVEUgrMSzE8wyXSl7kSo1mhtXieIDcl0skYWNnR/cOYVRtc41N0EVlKV/0 MUtPevzyUB8wbE0b5rCkp9S9YMXenf9vsAJoo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=hGglVzNGJDT9mca8/kt1Cn+sITOK0f3PD1KTldXG8GI=; b=k0uGqdWkqK7JOhXYALdsBQ3dNSAMxC5dxn+1EUAyYSrz/vQwbFgohSBtZZK9rh7rq0 z3ro/HW6YHYRQBTe4t1ZoItX99wFLyFysdQAAhHU5xm9A5voAEGcpbUlo3PSLrwuoZhe VJR1VSjpOdPjPmIW6Jt3u3IX/6fjttb9cJcBg5ojMnK9ccHwmyJ1WxPqaNJunDNBsGVS GKwvwOGO8hVxKFGWtQKnFvEU1j0voHbPs0EclHK8E0Jz2glTXtwrqznhYE0ful5diTXz xpQNOIK65b/+sgxDKTYdoSRgq73zUS7fQSimwhcuCLkb+dE68u1SQVuZ440DgnLd1hUY 24cw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532QUMsTMjhwoxqmVOXnd9PO9569j6Wap0xKiVhlyzYQnqjP4Yov MWV130hPgnG3sKQSA4NQeBFacRn5ld8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzJjtiJ8yq+FoGx5GbMeizJrCggZmYv4U/asZ+GlND5wTc52MApcObInSGioMSg8vk2teL5NA== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4d4c:: with SMTP id x12mr8582340qtv.39.1591880186355; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 185sm2194323qke.92.2020.06.11.05.56.24 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49jP4S0jFrz2lHN for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:56:16 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611085616.0000514b@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/eP2StqjBtkKTR=eHJGvd+UI"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jP4W3NbBz4Ynr X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=Vv6oI60V; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::832 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.49 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.012]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.10)[0.100]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::832:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:56:28 -0000 --Sig_/eP2StqjBtkKTR=eHJGvd+UI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 8:03 AM Yuri Pankov wrote: > >> Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: =20 >> > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:49:47 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: =20 >> >> As to the comment of how common top posting is or not almost >> >> every web based MUA defaults to it =20 >> > >> > Could you mention a few FLOSS BSD or Linux MUAs that by default >> > sets the cursor above the quoted text? =20 >> >> FWIW, Thunderbird does that by default in new accounts, you have to >> configure it to do otherwise. >> =20 > >So does every other GUI/web MUA. I don't know why it is so hard for >the FreeBSD community to get that conventions have changed (for better >or worse I don't know but they have). I have even had people complain >about not top-posting because "I can't find your reply" and thus >almost the entire world (except for a few technical mailing lists) >either accepts or encourages top-posting. > >https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D15648928 >https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-masses-utilize-the-top-posting-style-in-e= mail-replies >https://www.jefftk.com/p/abandoning-bottom-posting Personally, I find reading a message that has been replied to several time with a combination of "Top Posting," "Bottom Posting" and "Inline Posting" to be virtually impossible to follow at some point in time. Even worse are the number of responders who fail to clip out unneeded portions of the message. I am aware that there are users who consider "truncating" parts of a message as blasphemy. However, without proper pruning, an email replied to numerous times in a virtual cornucopia of styles, becomes an unintelligent mess. Just my 2=C2=A2 --=20 Jerry --Sig_/eP2StqjBtkKTR=eHJGvd+UI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7iKfAACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRQwwf+PLMznj/Shlyynq+pCfC0oI7t14kY+lwkmelo8+ViSHAmDRbUYjRlwcG/ OelZ/4HKrp4IBk5NqfdVZ/d5vZrCxTO4Aj9SJD4mx7V8InO8HAC3FFvf4p944zog W18b1v5nHVBvts8eAudIBkLo+NXbDHgnmQGhQB1run6Smo6ZDPsRhEjgM39Buee+ lRWEWQYQ+1nOemBCkwyJWiotIjsEoLFCMGVvnKPOYk00x6+OrhkoS/aZvrb/OmJ3 OyDvM7WVES01brgZrxQ0IgP06YJ9ol0jRIuR5CEQiDsfDJShMNNz3nHB1m4Y5UN4 nI52I4xhp1fpyHEnD9aSlPQaeclA2A== =zkCG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/eP2StqjBtkKTR=eHJGvd+UI-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:03:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB29432F2FA for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:03:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.75]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jPD42YNDz4Z1R for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:02:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MGhi0-1jeOlT18ny-00DoPg; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:02:53 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:02:53 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Yuri Pankov Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611150253.425076e1.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:+doV/czKFRnA5e6wFE88YaL+QSKS3VPM7IWjqkk8UWa2mNlh31H loGpMxEAvPWlKGhEV0E7Oliv89guSVby/7Zak9wANl16viEjU8gRRGZyzuLk6cnaGJ4Tvd3 kp7r2qzxxT7ePoTvYplL5qeZAfL4vMzyqR9QO93uJry9rqDmoLl4IWDuD0IBYDQoRxeT54w KIFaOxLQOYsA/+1n9tH2g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:0PGyRnLeC4o=:uFoG2DASMlToQym4rqZGy6 9nWAIkZL6pxXvRYtMEqgH4pFfr0qmdJ4z761PlDWwSow17ysgQ6d23AEWc/8pGE5VD2WOEbfx dOm+t81UQ6dEJ+JXqKvrQQ7czMruR9hpzR5bMPGO99SDGICIjxg+SAYmOKWg6pNlLkCHzNM6r Ci28x+ktuIWGIHpJPGKLdiKJatQ8xB5xiuKZ/SriT9BpvuQJ32MDPRl1n/b5uMGqIudj/2a0M +6o6jceLQn1gx7FPKRg2RELuVZ+Nb9Llz+2jvBirhenvipfRiPQCCCBGkq3A25rdnMoHWTBeQ X5eyDpQvM1ZRwn4rUiYS8Vo/mLFExVsrQmYmjqDx2CT/cGTgBeIqJkTZtJdehfVYY5BbdXzpL IrVuZDv7QNyD2R9J+TPrT8HHxpOQPKp9V5fHVki722pf8PDuM2QCAbJpIBuj5Ug1yo2xtpYfk 3FlX12QSo6+3ydDIHRo8yQXXetCmi73T+NgKErxZFjaa8JczOrZj5SgjEgdaoOYAWJ/xCH3NY t9/LsTQGxb7yILCeR8pTwLUAl5NkUKOyOJkJcOpsOLgER0TVdFD7uDb8jgLC+XfFjK7XOEfbY exUMv9OqEV/o2aH+D/Pn9K53JOI4cICv0sALs8m5g+ohRkOZ7wVgRZrVYsK5JnnHy9jh7Ix9T /1puBjKE2jmvRXJe86D/grahQZwqrx1CbmxvZ9aStcMFGK4Pl8sp9Uxzy+rBCFTM21fKVUAJu Zro28PX2bhiSrfp+5pnt8Jz25LQr6tA/oeSqXFVbuOdEk8z/WLnEGWAYCCVF467blFSNrtiD1 mWiKQcn6hHYXzX00IunbbxBEkvtZj2DOm0NWUiMBpzMk9hnIYZl5sxCcN6q9Xkl7zk2iWPq X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jPD42YNDz4Z1R X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.75) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.73 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.162:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.01)[0.014]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.01)[0.013]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.30)[0.305]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:03:01 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:22:06 +0300, Yuri Pankov wrote: > WRT top-posting, I strongly disagree with this, having $work use Outlook > almost exclusively and getting really hard times finding who answers > what in *technical* discussions with more than 2-3 replies -- I'm > spending A LOT more time than needed on this. I would agree on using > top-posting when you are sending some request and have your manager > reply with "Approved" on top, that's the only situation I can think of > when it's acceptable. I'd say, it always depends on context. For example, if it's just a simple VSRP ("very short reply preferred") kind of message, there's probably nothing wrong: 12 o'clock Bob wrote: When can we meet? But if a discussion gets more complex, and especially technical ones do (but it is of course not restricted to technical ones!), it can get problematic what exactly (!) has been replied to. Or if multiple questions are asked: Yes. Bob wrote: For the next meeting, I have free slots at 2 pm and at 4 pm on Tuesday, or if you want, 10 am on Wednesday. If that doesn't match your current plan, suggest a different time, I'll see what I can do. Furthermore, did you review form 27B/6 as I asked for? Do section 3 or section 7 need changes (Joe suggested them in yesterday's meeting)? Now imagine this kind of "discussion" at the length of 10 pages. Yes, I have seen them. Printed. On paper. In an office. Personally, I feel (!) that using inline quotes + tidying up the message is a token of respect. It shows that you've actually read the message, thought about the matter, and took time to write an answer. My hope is that people who read my messages will see the amount of work that went into them, and see it as an appreciation of _their_ time. In my opinion, just slapping something like "install sysutils/foo" on top of a message does not express respect, even though it _might_ answer the initial question. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:08:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969B932F926 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:08:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jPLl4Nxtz4ZkN for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:08:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id p5so5339006ile.6 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:08:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X2cplgAZtgiKT3EFwl0b7+qRjT1xUi7DmH/TX66rh54=; b=vGziR8qAQfqLkeM8EohpMnI1ci6ausCSDP58LdnEvxLkYRUVMJFXXW2hVFjpVHroNO byoOuLlFtuQ2uITa5HuyokqtagqymNU2KzZlJ/19GPe4nSzxCwz+mEligmP59/R0QWBW aEcbfs15v5y8V0gWYxfSMj2oHXQx1YlsQAjBNiIyT7zrDHmKgIYToRZAOOwdI0d1+vRP xxACsHaJxbDUAyJ0Zi/+5nllXR90MKt6o/OTWD/0WoM9udoGumCyXbXPJT+tug/Vizkl UYFvZ7Se0lXlT1ELcqy2EHW5sTuN1xqOj0VhJxu0wlZTSicz6QNMdNrAVA6MNQO4ZIyj 1QaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X2cplgAZtgiKT3EFwl0b7+qRjT1xUi7DmH/TX66rh54=; b=YqsTQ9qtJRKafl7Hbw+/EZoy33+7wRP2tWRCUGy8nawUoqmjnGmhGOO14p8ybQ+vfd vh3UATgTQXxeqVp9ujLE5ayxYMBdaStk2UObLdyAivHTl+Tpu2mPMnIXAo9+ZN9GLwYf c+wHwrB5aa0lYAUhkihw3c1hY4r4/azEGHkSEB5hMu4V16CdEjaXtPixGOZbE4C4ISPp KBKWBvKKGvz5Rreno3lDMJIyd5aaGdSGi7mC2RQ4apU8uEb7lk1dQ46489EzwVnuFgKR ptb1luAQTXLITfo+PEWn+WWP7fYKuieXdqX7pI15sR6xZKz0bL79NhFHIPvgbUF7qgY0 AP7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530qBQenJ46iWMlzsWKmvo4pfrcpuHQWneXRS45C2R/T/gra5Bwt vFs7a1FOyr81o0oA5THgvyhPOjpPnaOUPLdSVz8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw6ppe/0Op8RVOGsW86O6o5OObwZj6mTzauAkWt0CXw814aBnP/jotCwKmApAF8oKhFXK9ajHTFQ9FgxDEYdkI= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e4a:: with SMTP id s71mr7851660ilb.119.1591880926135; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:08:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:08:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jPLl4Nxtz4ZkN X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=vGziR8qA; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.77 / 15.00]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:email]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.11)[1.108]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.84)[0.836]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.82)[0.824]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:08:48 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 8:31 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 8:03 AM Yuri Pankov wrote: > > > >> Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > >> > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:49:47 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> >> As to the comment of how common top posting is or not almost > >> >> every web based MUA defaults to it > >> > > >> > Could you mention a few FLOSS BSD or Linux MUAs that by default > >> > sets the cursor above the quoted text? > >> > >> FWIW, Thunderbird does that by default in new accounts, you have to > >> configure it to do otherwise. > > > >So does every other GUI/web MUA. I don't know why it is so hard for > >the FreeBSD community to get that conventions have changed (for better > >or worse I don't know but they have). I have even had people complain > >about not top-posting because "I can't find your reply" and thus > >almost the entire world (except for a few technical mailing lists) > >either accepts or encourages top-posting. > > I seriously doubt that there are a lot GUI or TUI MUAs available for > BSD or Linux that do that by default. Just mentioning one, Thunderbird > and then claiming every other does, too, is weak. I'm not aware of one. > SquirrelMail for one (I didn't look very deep into what *EVERY* web client does but the first one I found does it and so do all the hosted ones like gmail/hotmail/etc. so I would say a 100% hit rate is pretty clear.... so I challenge you to find a web one that doesn't do it by default [being able to adjust the settings is not the same as "by default"]). Evolution doesn't, Sylpheed doesn't, Claws-Mail doesn't. IIRC KMail and > Wanderlust didn't when I used them. Probably no other does, I just > mentioned those I'm still using or I used a while back. > If someone is top posting out of not knowing list convention do you really expect them to have also fully configured anything more then a browser on FreeBSD (and that's if they are lucky)? -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:10:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFAED32FB26 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:10:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jPNy45Yvz4ZlH for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:10:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id x6so6066969wrm.13 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:10:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YcnlKEajK56LUc83Xs/jfc0ltEa+1NAt/UK0B7Fs5mo=; b=clus7Y/7AkdwyPEwGT9LeaoXNmFjU2AnI1EHBcy6jZIJyLvkshz4KM051Yjc8fkRgT kAx+YhQe1yaDK7r3FQlVDzTv3Y66C0BDByXHwDYyXMJY7YMo7BxGe/AOKyDU4vYj+3uJ WkDf2VXR+KJiucH8FfdnA/uvkkLOgbdnUXwHy5JkuxeZHCp06YSH7gHZl4zFyU0rANt5 +BNuc08hiqxMuR4IWfIi/xhGg78XWwFTHXvRT2PHIhFnRuynLS9EVQfL46Cw7T5JDlOa xwevVcNo+bIMhLBGjC5U5VL3272UcYSUaDYNvvOM6M8lMqk9CLObzEfZVnm9DDniGDuq N1Mw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5307sJpIQK1aH/l+JzW2tOycHCkc1rDYQLNWE27qQBPhrXcZR0Uj FeQvX7GKWfHkL/leZ8G0RQHFZlsO X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyAzZ/d3kn9YlJqYN14VRLOHG6a/9TftdVI+2gao2879SPh2zAFmbnuGBK/Y44TyLit9YoY+w== X-Received: by 2002:adf:a4dd:: with SMTP id h29mr10085256wrb.372.1591881040692; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([2.222.66.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h188sm4590595wmh.2.2020.06.11.06.10.39 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:10:38 +0100 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jPNy45Yvz4ZlH X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.78 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[googlemail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[2.222.66.16:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.019]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[googlemail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[googlemail.com,quarantine]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::434:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.23)[0.231]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[googlemail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:10:44 -0000 On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 19:11:07 -0700 Donald Wilde wrote: > GMail appears to accept MIME, and I can see embedded MIME tables, > etc., but the non-text stuff doesn't survive the reply-quoting process > very well. You are confusing MIME with HTML. Without MIME, email is just ASCII headers, an ASCII text body and a few kludges. What the article is mainly referring to is MIME sections and encodings. If a client doesn't support sections you may see things like: ----11F4010BD64A7DDD4A964F0B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable in the body. Plain text with a Content-Transfer-Encoding that hasn't been decoded can be harder to read or unreadable. Any modern client really should be able to read MIME, it's been around for nearly 30 years. Using a client that doesn't support it is just an affection these days. HTML is something that can be encapsulated in MIME. It's a very different matter. > Actually, given that the output of the quoting process is very usable > indented plain text, I think Google did a very good job considering > that GMail is a free service from a commercial, for-profit company. You can use gmail with a separate email client if you like. The servers support pop/imap/smtp. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:17:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3333732FEBD for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:17:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jPXw2w5zz4bMD for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:17:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MjSwu-1j37Ei1dnu-00kvSu for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:17:34 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:17:34 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611151734.ea6963ad.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200611083041.0000039c@seibercom.net> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611122357.5a0a71c6.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611083041.0000039c@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NjrFscyGZ94iOkiNPF3Ffr46c4fClA03YhAgrVm9+AmGT45M230 KkTnmm0W+BV8MdImQUYnn4Hg0qjuxZ3UzIkKaqx/7V1yq4bDECMLJOrzB5R85Dt1dV597xT UBPty2u7rOMcLvhg83pRwajBepz3ZdLWgkhSb3TAwpqAQxxMSiu7Q1HehavaQ6sYy5OUgFw F2Yn8PFLUrzmQ5eFPfjNw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:tYCXbvm9CUE=:QHwCq2q+Pwhf02v+yhwrit Ya82by85Yf2CE5FjmXpUtH0NLelwv9m4Ju7r4xNPHts7Rjmqro/BIqaSNnDSMe0etjVkovNKA KqKbp8qHFvfaiIYFPDHS/Twi9Pp31vTRscpjrK+8WZR8HOgmRGRj3G6jUkABjHftDwx+l31FQ ttLzzHl9A/noCPAACwDu9CwEtd44a2nAqi+c5SkQ06PXZazOgA+mLFYXMnAXXQI0DrK7v+HdB 4phiM8VZn6Bb+MoU1oG/ueyHRJzWbi00uZ1uAPw3yTjteN+H0g5zR1hF5CFrw7lqk0ExL7mRv WNaZrMufkBK+wx11gCnb1umIdK+wzf2HAkWVFsQtcwqwWSI0n1uUN8jApEoDXbOPMqanF2qJR qkUUbZ8Fp2qyE0esCvav/ENaNNgy0vX3Hq+ag4nMJxxyg6Rc1gQTpqchV1sagfoBIwFLTxvKH /zDRcbgiaDMNCeZ4MUYljDzAZqy2MLV2v/sGoNuGYuTtCz09/G5ALhdwisz1ERuLT/gnTLjGo 4UjniQX09Yu2p619ZJbPZBPfvvnIVN2AZQm4Ww9NUF4N5ASuAwwu5Dv+/m9xIOH6vRSA61Fpu JwX+t5DPTFDEuRWV9b10wBjjZ4j7Ow8I+IVgk1t5ZSpNk+hG1RVfyR2jNGTQYFb/jVQES/wFI 73cAJ0lmdjxnGB6jwy3HrahrN112wZ9F6dDCNfQY4Z86QG87sOD7hgOFgWWrPsZ3veM7AEx2y TKDVG893vPAqTf+PEDrD6a2hjfgzSzEMtxTiBT1SopShW3TDu9hKAx03X+lq6BhTz5hAivvB0 6FKL4tIZMjQUZOKiqAIR5czKZt7iKkIG+ozBrOdfBZbBGvejfTMvhznMlzbLM53a4uIY7PE X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jPXw2w5zz4bMD X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:17:37 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:30:41 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 12:23:57 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 05:53:30 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> As I said before the top posting rule really does fly in the face of > >> convention for most non-technical/mailing list oriented mail users. > >> > > > >Hmmm... sorry, but I think that this statement is problematic, > >as it contains a significant contradiction: You use the > >term "most non-technical/mailing list oriented mail users", > >but non-technical users won't use a mailing list! The use > >of mailing lists is quite prominent among advanced users, > >while non-technical users seem to prefer web forums. So > >more or less, you can consider anyone using a mailing list > >to be an advanced (or at least, not "non-technical" user). > > Nothing snobbish or elitist about that comment. Absolutely nothing. My individual observation is, and please note the "direction of the implication arrow": novice user ---> web forum advanced user ---> mailing list That does _not_ imply that there aren't (at least a few) novice users who start on mailing lists (as you can see from the archives, they do actually exist), and it also does not imply that advanced users cannot use web forums (and in fact you can find them there). But compare how many "noobs" (terminus technicus, not offending) communicate on web forums compared to mailing lists - you'll see a significant difference. The reason is simple: For novice users, it seems to be far easier to register to a web forum than setting up a proper "working environment" (no matter if it's a web mailer or a standalone MUA program) for email communication and use with a mailing list. ---> != <---> This is of course a bit oversimplified and does not represent any attempt of an entirely correct summary. Exceptions exist. And there's nothing wrong (or "elitist") about it. I know that, because I know everything. Oh fsck, I accidentally activated the computer's snob mode... ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:19:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD2032FFDC for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:19:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic303-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic303-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jPbQ24GDz4bp1 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:19:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: QpzTLUYVM1mzqXDaCBW9Qqbfrkb15ZCx526_dIFGx.97tmjZSCHw.CfMcfxCcQe 8HlV4qVE3S5jR6ok1VI4fyyuuMr1FG9QtV957R3NopbkLyMMREfQ1RsRZCg3cGHQJC2OKXikHgyI Rj7y3Ft.CF.P9qXq4UDNIUsgdqGsIPTcHj2_FGY7bsh8QAld7v0NWfkgWovEZv19.R_tpYEsKaO0 xObY2eMT1cvBhZXdSXtw8a74AQe90mcsDdlkrWP0DDQZtXigK1AVn585qy2a70QK8Q1IL8VeoEYU S8igs8gQyIRxSi522Rk.R6rw5tJKT80jEtyREiLmpGCW7oxerNKyJdDQhqm9n.ofxW93sihNbw0n mM5QEMfozBnPbB4T3RwZjf_YfipkPE7Q79y6iArwWKlUQkNu9EjFhzDtU5ZhrrxTCLWNm8Zaby9o YKHOczGqqiWXcFZeU6z2kRm367sVv00AIeQw35h_GzRLrnOs6c_KmcPClLW1DqEEaI1NxA5SRgNZ YiE5YTQshPRQn.pv27.qrhBTNUns0y8zU9WH9mOZxamYpoX0OrASrN_9WGF8HqfPUtKC8OBLbSpC vQaQK3G4HzklJq03rB15vQNSUMlitzDcnOto29qQOZur0TJqqInPdNaTT5OhorHVkiy84vk3wQlm VG8KMCOWcaaGO5N9cSOeymber2FuH23byPp4JJevRpFDMfZc_4W0.OICA870alvbDlH5CQjFfh34 fw_WXpYLB5iKKupcs4ixG8VLkQ8z2a9hPNCS3PTKOhQgvtFrqU_XhvAatiSVezZCf.OQwApzoTNV 6CvogmRJO.RlY0nRrggssJF9pWEYF5DBr3Mss5SJvrLxU8KP9EIwi9.tid7mLF9U3IyhTRppfgYZ bAvvjpfDW0xrRNWK5D5ig1Ay3nD4ko8iIHlAVBZAu6zCn4YGsXJSyXVWNghNvkr69Sf14xFJ_AwS yFYm3NBNNlJE3m7fDfMIvlf91YbvJ_2DcWZ2r488zSAv71o31Mpo5GGGocEQ5OfhjAuLUqrkcvG5 lteB5GQdA9t1.TtkEYHX4TBZXDsEbW_zU4JPCZ0Z7ve5EpeA0rVos7SA8BmVaB7U8NVU_xOCzq84 vzWPmcRVzlHy3TxE9zW3fegkZonE7.c_TpbnLLdPoek4ic4F6vgQeHcZhdJZoq6Z42m6Dd1hZOtH L2fJNtYmg._A6xVZT5fN66MavJh4uN2oHSwGK1qH.exMkik9Jl0WfpH0ykxdOzM40Qx34vxtC4jR TkMgxwZBpTKviL9cu6yHJkNU35emxg96x_gZJ.p5CLcLEZzHtDWdknaDd5swDA10FTEqucWtQS_9 kZ75K.oRfZXVRO.X0IRE7x8JgW_soBRRDu6ZB1TvZsOWtOh2d9mEnJVb_tyGp0gLiW8_wRpHAK.S ubqecuFk- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:19:44 +0000 Received: by smtp423.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4692c1d6efcdc3b9006babf0338f3a71; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:19:40 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:19:40 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611151940.04870db5@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jPbQ24GDz4bp1 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.178.201:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.41)[0.407]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.021]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.178.201:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:19:47 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:46 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >If I wish to use "..." instead of "=E2=80=A6", and I use "those" >quotes instead of =E2=80=9Cthose=E2=80=9D, then I do so for a good reason. >I don't have to explain or justify that reason. In this case at least the meaning didn't change, but unfortunately it isn't always like that. If text writing software automatically detects what kind of " to use, it could be useful and if unwanted, we notice it and can disable it. But I experienced that a MUA editor showed the wanted signes when editing and while sending, it changed the signs. It was visible after sending, not before sending. It wasn't just a typo, a user error. I did not accidentally push Shift+Ctrl+U, some numbers and enter ;). From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:21:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD67F330231 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:21:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jPcx04hZz4bqB for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:21:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id h3so5333961ilh.13 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:21:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wHj/nUiG4QdrN+omlFiy4X82oNylCa+G68e/TPq2eAU=; b=Hv4iurjSF7Oc0JAjIsapjpnqdsHigqisHyk7wtkr4ARp0CLckzBYP3JWIow/Eti/Qy p2+Gfuf0qTpQkG6JrguXddcO2CHPOZVgG3gSfQjLD3SAp0/DmuswFbwPI6sd55scxyEj LYCcYjXnM5ClBd7PXyATE0xEwACXfjOHcyfV7HuLeUx8UcEkghz9wblw5FCzU/xTQvTC /BToqVMimbJwilDqHyDVQK6jrByBF/J0p1z8YBHDy57HwdWQgZvj+pKJ3Xnl77AK94Mc j7u9/ClneWay0gwRr8n5LcEku1ENMj7TkRRfWz4Vny0U59l4mMSUodJIgSjFd8XWH7E8 OL4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wHj/nUiG4QdrN+omlFiy4X82oNylCa+G68e/TPq2eAU=; b=IhRfbJ4R+ggvbfCmRfzdBlIB44gfYkspWcAPz47iviKiFYFDA+RhJU6NCJJc+IHQA1 jyI/56d6KQt8R5IIVcPZ+PEWINOigkW13NWCXYzqP7THgsRVJTZ6LTbS8KTclrKC9q98 JhqvIy1NBqCrlFqPPxvYnUiIPiB1u5DE7GqVubPt6Ulc0ZDpAjOEjHKs2p/w8LvPylLs 4e0Ryuzu01TXS2/LPk13z/wmcGFcTsL99D3u/5gQ6dJTM1suswNTID7bcPGpPwrSg5Dk DnDXoL0hSh6bndLSPhjrvC+VPOQkaLdv524coe4uZg7OOQh8hTYPFvYH1PAGG4W3YTGZ 78VA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531z0b4XhRtA4iAAY5KYUnTZLndRjGSHFOw5xcjtWgCokCgN+E+p 53o8aTm2C7GZ+fXhXPP5KwirqCtVMUNgjKqdV1k0ngGP X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxGqEktZHTEwzW+Pcb2nbJind+WODJCkOYRDj4H6BREn7RwIDLDvyiBPvu5LP68wxDbr7zhcZqtTsofRuUTWXk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:6c9:: with SMTP id p9mr7523981ils.185.1591881664157; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:21:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:20:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: RW Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jPcx04hZz4bqB X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Hv4iurjS; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.73 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.019]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.29)[0.294]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[googlemail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:21:05 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:11 AM RW via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > You can use gmail with a separate email client if you like. The > servers support pop/imap/smtp. > You can also use UUCP addressing if you really want (or if you're really insane you can use a combo of internet, UUCP and BitNet addressing and send it via FidoNet using tin cans), why would you want to an email set up should be *SIMPLE* and even then it has problems with delivery (why add even more failure points). Case in point I use gmail not because of its ease of use per se (even though it is better then most standalone MUA's) I use it because it is an off-site backup of years worth of correspondence that is too valuable to worry about losing in a hardware failure. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:22:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12233306CA for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:22:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jPf70ww5z4c2c for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:22:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MHFsE-1jexIL0wwy-00DFuh for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:22:05 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:22:05 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611152205.b305ae0c.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200611085616.0000514b@seibercom.net> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611085616.0000514b@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:rYX+Nt05fqQJXbcF/jA9bCC9tBmqrZrowTB1FQcsqb2tz0PrZDd a9YhHw9TgqxiGGARoC2m4JPyUFWDV91tyOO2A8R1M34ezMVGyASab9nyyvXuJuAW+Sh5Z6E 7DbIAks/MomFoJkvhCKvLcWeElhSWUHiMqiD8mwZ84P1Wt5+UcEjdZtMaCjinyQ8EMS/lCF kNtU711JTNgTjwYCTQqrA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:T84ArZgpi+c=:spBozbr9iCLdadnsw6WpTY etqGr+sLEmMaiLrEHcyJzzEhvKie2btn2Lpd41z54zU8eNN5YgXS+YRSTvWUZe9gjUc9Zu+Ce q+lGoZdDxVtZiGt2hN4eP1OQNXXHy2mMW2moGSLk6iRUoQiJWmbdTrvrazgsh1+MwVFnRUP3b UfAWcMKcjNbVppW3z9Q4GXpamJ1zSzrMEuY//HJ+Fhx3PcPDV4T6jnjoQerZDpW2uvgo6Eu7r vxH2xXKxdB0aLgJI6cMlLx6nJszUwz3cJOepR7OV59SgljQJMUQZsUVUdmLE6iI7x2wJ4yh+1 0i6vZxSK3S/cPwaUgr0tR300k9U1fjIGznj+D8QloW+8lugmXUWUCe2X8MKbnc/t6aBaUgy2V tCbz7QRLZoFDFU0rBC9LPMM3y4bxIRiqOP6kPm1sREXPZcOp4eOtMuqSTFNLGFaoBbbc4jO1O 7Td36+9Tf7d46O9uOL6C9gSA6I9oe5m1JUeVXHB87dPYc8JkPvPaC2o2FziBGxV84GMl8pJdC jy5p1hPCbxpyXVlC+YNEcAiqXUy/5/sZ4XIboFW28bAVfbAPPiAXGoyVCkZNcCguLBkGZcsGp M9gRG4d3Czij8HFwMQguM3Im2ayDVIO8g/In+CqYh7nrsHx6nPrtTktnnHBCwQD3XSmuj7WNB rK3ES9ujDPRj/OTWNJEkZLP8U+PZpo0Fu/XAoDiluxaDhL4z6vGLSK5yWYB8AAXlfeTpm1qiZ TS0+UVyidq5doXMpl/Z9Dz1k79d6m8UC5IqtJ3hmTiZY9LLlWHYxA5ffqlposB10UQJ5y9Rje i2noidIc9Ltr2oekLp9SnHd1NBXPfcL0BPXlHltz8xPoWE4/c18JYQb1T6oXMBDdVTtPymI X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jPf70ww5z4c2c X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:22:07 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:56:16 -0400, Jerry wrote: > Even worse are the number of responders who fail to clip out unneeded > portions of the message. I am aware that there are users who consider > "truncating" parts of a message as blasphemy. However, without proper > pruning, an email replied to numerous times in a virtual cornucopia of > styles, becomes an unintelligent mess. Yes! This is a good description of what I meant with "showing respect" or "to deal with" the message. If your headers are kept working, and you can also use "[...]" or "[dd]" (or any other indication that you clipped something) the "quoted" aspect is still fully valid. And if you worry about the blasphemy: there's always the reference (!) to the original message which can be consulted. Thanks for mentioning this one - I thought I was the only one who noticed that. Oh, must be my PC's snob mode again... ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:23:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2A9330774 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:23:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jPgB0Hq9z4cZd for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:23:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.155]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 58EC24E666 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:23:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: tools for building mailserver on freebsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <7f0656fc-f3f9-4058-8382-c3dab4c4cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:22:59 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jPgB0Hq9z4cZd X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.20 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.155:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.65)[0.650]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.66)[0.664]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.79)[0.789]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:23:03 -0000 On 6/10/20 11:39 PM, Peter Boosten via freebsd-questions wrote: > > >> On 11 Jun 2020, at 06:05, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> >>  >> >>> On 6/10/20 9:45 PM, Warren Hua wrote: >>> Hello >>> I am trying to build a mailserver on freebsd, including the full stack of webmail, imap, antispam, antivirus, ssl etc. >>> I searched and found there were such tools existing, such as mailinabox [1], but they work on linux only. >>> Do you know if there is a similar solution for freebsd? >>> thank you. >>> [ > > This link helped me a lot. You can leave out the solr part, if you want to. > > https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/mail-server-guide/ > It sounds like you have this set up. I have one quick question: is there per-user spam preferences, and how users control them: whether spam is filtered at all, white/black lists, where quarantined messages go and how user can check/retrieve them. Thanks a lot for pointer! Valeri > Peter ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:39:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38993313EE for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:39:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jQ27178mz4fD4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:39:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: GiHzVlcVM1nsRhQ9LkxJSb4O01Sf6CY5M6oiLZlqLZnRvFEQna_bcUHW60Z4B8u VT0bmnzSTJagvSP.0fFPJ929CcKy_CHd.MVQg5ALDb2H.If0kShooWW3rrdD7YOtp4HG_AkzBYso HijfIbdPQJqYdibA0mIPQVMAcqWqtF3e9.5Lczq.VqbAvW47iX4KACqrilVpqXVWFfTARYi_A29E _.5JOn8hHmN3Ap1F5g4uQA8lNOh7USIWUDf51l.X5LaGU8SN_1qlGCz4gM0JbWCKx06noVWOE0GW 3KLqNNSfQC2_vDJeeSzDB1CLO4WN.WACf_2mxfGA77_GKDQsTr8YaipLGnpxO89tc04RI63QZJaG 2FcANLMEBBuSl5xCjlYf9AQRDLuehctsCOUPYlFHsiGsOOpwQNmkfHb8jf.jApP1ctv_t6OiwgNs p5T141tY380BuPb8Dl.altT_eBvTJ0AsISOZipF7p_9tshd8nNljFZerP4N.dM_cugFg5xpYIkDR LbbZ2h7fzvI2F2xK0g6oRgmD5Z0TW6CxO7hcKsWud0IAXP8xdS5XTPmt.0CUaeLxny1eZ24fjr0Y awoW50On00m.J78Rnira6CABTRnnV03kGe4UwkU70DPoq6cqEQ_0fs8nzXKgSEJBACRqMY3SoqDS DrmQhBGe2RJ60w9G_4wbUBZYPbdKoZS9ErNUyAApdLApHq7JTI52aqFc8iY7k4v.JI_BWXebHbuw X_F_dtr5JZMpCB9eY.XacGkXo0wGuE_NghkBPUYF9syFCHD9oWtsqlyCbYvI_0tKs1m81B.QOlZK 9uKz3T7XUP6.xg9625CfCZecKPwF71kcdQkmObWhoNXkaG4oEu9NZ1YA5xj.iT6tjIC0WaC_XDxp uRy7GTWiGcTPGfiNWUuN3hzA1e1edFAniyei0GD_JoeRwAvo0zmWNgbej1NUTgQdYQ7W6rt47YiI TwcA1DhreTi41HKGkhe8SZueK4xZ554wgTeJ6KNXu4Oz5mDs1jmWDpqG7Jn4B7zImXDlbJjOIRZ6 FceOqYqZzhgSuoOSmpWBAHnUw1MVYMMDJN3o2xa0BnvxolHdY5BLBAreXZGx_eL93PkMF6WwsR5j TZDgNfbsy9c8C2k26LgOp9ldOVpSvTODh8sxkAdpBkPgO3kPArc6pvYABAW2pGPw1Uj.SOB2vzvX sA4Oeax8_ebM35OiKg3EcWyfwTiIEQ4ePAL_gzw4MYrxHZBeWjPi1O6LihKOGdr8pj.1UupQrHCm _xX1dDVRq_a5_XN1U8n._jSSFbJFlUrceju2AGz4kkUZHj5eLcZCtre2zpbkB7vAFw.lXBrljbRM IFM62B4JXk5BJeKG2If9uZHZgiVWSeANV8M3UeysetxE61p3uaIokxFBBcZoteFjgfHHBO4eEV.l Qdf4LOdmsUg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:39:25 +0000 Received: by smtp428.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a232c54452f930d87e48bde03e72d3f3; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:39:23 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:39:24 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611153924.62a3719a@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jQ27178mz4fD4 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.47 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[87.248.110.83:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.962]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.021]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[87.248.110.83:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:39:28 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:08:33 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >I challenge you to find a web one that doesn't do it by default When became email web interfaces decent mail clients? Rr=C3=A9sum=C3=A9: Apart from "Thunderbird" you unlikely will find any dece= nt GUI (or TUI) MUA providing the default to set the cursor above the quotes. Note! Being able to adjust the settings is not the same as "the default". SICR! On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >So does every other GUI/web MUA. Again, apart from email web interfaces, that quasi nobody considers a decent MUA, what are all those FLOSS MUAs the majority of BSD and Linux users are using, usually doing by default? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:42:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99B233193A for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:42:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jQ680988z4fTh for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:42:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.155]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4AFD54E666 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:42:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <5d81bc6c-991d-2fc2-ff88-059d182b7c23@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:42:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jQ680988z4fTh X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.77 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.155:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.24)[0.241]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.61)[0.614]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.82)[0.816]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:42:56 -0000 On 6/11/20 12:56 AM, Polytropon wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: >>> However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient it is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why sometimes replies are send "twice"… > > Attention! Here we have a severe case of "MUA ate my homework"! > > Your MUA did modify (!) my original message, so the quote is no > longer correct (as it imples something that I didn't write). > > Aspect 1 is no big problem: It removed my newlines and put > everything into one long line. This is no big deal with > regular text ("paragraph text"), but would be with code, > or something laid out to be a table or a diagram in text. > > Aspect 2, and that _is_ a problem: I wrote "...", which is > three periods, and your MUA turned it into "…", which is > an UTF-8 ellipsis. > > Aspect 2a, a sign of inconsistency, is that your MUA did > not change my " double quotation marks (inch symbols) into > correct typographical quotation marks. And how could it? > Which rules would apply? I'm in Germany, so our quotation > marks are "two down" and "two up", while in English, you > usually how "two in" and "two out", something like this, > incorrectly simplified: > > ,,The german style.'' > > ``The english style.'' > > And there are of course differences in AE and BE. You can > also see that I used tabs and empty lines for format my > reply. If a MUA eats those, big problem. > > A typographically skilled person will even say that using > something like “that“ is wrong (uses same symbol for start > and end of quoting). > > Similarly, MUAs could mess with the use of dashes ("-" or > "–") or apostrophes ("'" or "’"). > > All those considerations of course lead to breaking my > carefully crafted message in plain ASCII (not even using > ISO-8859-1) and lifting it into the UTF-8 multibyte universe > with all its unsolved questions. ;-) > > > >> A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied sender if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the message was from a list, [...] > > As I mentioned, this will only work as long as the relevant > headers are intact. If some MUA mangles them on the way (yes, > I'm looking at you, MICROS~1 products!), this will no longer > work. And as I've been saying this, MICROS~1 products are > also known for changing message content (see above, aspect 2), > and even mangling timestamps and timezones. > > Oh, and MUAs don't have to be smart. It's much better if the > people using them are smart. That's fully sufficient. :-) > > > >> [...] and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 keys in precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. > > Which is inconvenient for users who _wish_ to be CCed in the > typical "reply to all" manner. > > If I remember correctly, "reply to all" has never been a real > problem on the FreeBSD mailing lists. Users can set up filtering > rules to remove duplicate messages they might receive during a > thread, or remind their counterparts to pay attention to use > the "reply to mailing list" button. > > Sadly, Sylpheed has a prominent "reply to all" button, whereas > "reply to mailing list" is a drop-down element next to the > regular "reply" button. So you can guess which one gets used > the most. I agree with your points, Polytropon. I would just add one more that sets me off: the footer of the message with legalese saying something like it is confidential, destined to intended recipients only, and attempting to oblige me to whatever they attempt to put as restrictions. In the first place, you are too late buddy, you first should ask if I give my consent for your sending that and agree to obey your restrictions. Anyway, I have seen these rarely, and not recently, luckily people seem to come to their senses and stopped using mail servers that do add that garbage where this will not be appropriate. Valeri > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:45:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11981331A90 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:45:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jQ8l10Pyz4fdM for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:45:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MfpGL-1jHBRQ1cbJ-00gHEf; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:45:05 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:45:04 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611154504.7a4ce56d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200611151940.04870db5@archlinux> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611151940.04870db5@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:wY60pP4n4fSHUFXHigEDsy7qROsaFnLP3r3NKUEo8i8rsYwt+nE lsmOfp7CH24260siZNHaLAINWX3obS4SF/9h7QPCF+RknBB5CyinV4EUvn3JLosWYZD2sj6 PKC9pgOcitZYHOMBkVb+U5hXy9X3QSLM+WOBwMWK4lph52iAYBEGTGrulFmHbcZtz9owjRr G9eOaU2PwJZrEdA2QfHoA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ovtsc5+8xtE=:kzGEFZC5qaBGOAc2Q0gcE4 HYDdhQJYmADXbsDP0MB5dPHcgFnSbciRAvRd8LTiromCmHxVNlC1NVyd66Ag7qPswEf7sFRmq 6BOsKNDStMfv7Um/6qFTSxCfIa4Q7+8QuTTzwB/VodbJ5NYhbPbAjSDYFi/ppGzXnm9DFehTt iQ3htSxJDJMyoLiw7qXWVTVyu7yXxzjzPShvwtYam6ljoCJTmCy/FSrBnhM96VrG3TmBW11Ql OjaruSfcN9UjGfHX7MHDIP6EHde65aUKcrmiypsWK/7xVJFMe6PvhwRCL7FH/pbbiWyPxaudt fcTUGa/EB8dRB3l/xUnUe7QIaBjYDIdq6UPPkJTqYlSySM+oP6ZcV1/wxFuDq+AnARlqMJX52 wnnJ+tOgIa/Hh4W3k6VSgYbrqeHxksaoWuXj7Ni5pLrknHEKQ0MOGdlE88kSwMQuh/2J1wW/g dNQUVDNt0f29AL02/ME0EyEVowLeTEWbkBi/pCJpbACVAyPk5x87D8dOPVmdYEkKUUUcBGkJ7 l6+PIW2DvpG+a/1FJ6PbFnRGfBq2Th/1VIB4moW9cXxX+OxnheyPSj7zvdHOTgFRpYMhEwm8r qyy0P4VdU2BMNIf0NmM6ycP8qr5/qUg+mYsGl6V22rBeKvSEkWhZtvP05+/qOCL1Ij1rcum8M qQ7OEGQ2EUyUV75bfrsyr9qEbvVKJiBiN6wkDOyc638c6eGHTEelbKsOT08elINLQDXAEWgJ5 eftfKeYNgJwo7nksxpfcybQqk8wD2DIEcgv5Trx8xq+BuIJFl32a4ABUe6+EM904RVZFpLMgQ 5OXD/X/oEkzWcFX4SFWImzuja8mpFB1yRo187tVZgZBV0WQiXKhvXpVfuTkAiYKBk6fh0a+ X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jQ8l10Pyz4fdM X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.12 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.33)[-0.335]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.162:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.31)[0.309]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.74)[0.742]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:45:15 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:19:40 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:46 +0200, Polytropon wrote: > >If I wish to use "..." instead of "…", and I use "those" > >quotes instead of “those”, then I do so for a good reason. > >I don't have to explain or justify that reason. > > In this case at least the meaning didn't change, but unfortunately it > isn't always like that. Correct - as I said, it's not a big problem here, but the "reasoning beneath it" could be. > If text writing software automatically detects what kind of " to use, > it could be useful and if unwanted, we notice it and can disable it. The mail composer window today, in many MUAs, resembles a word processing window, and it incorporates many of the microformatting aspects (uses HTML), utilizes spellcheck, or "is the same" in another way. However this does not stop the user (!) from disabling features that he does not want. The "smartness" can easily be brought to a point where a human decision would be desired; imagine the situation when I do this: - foo - bar - baz - tabs are great + pups + furz + gak - meow - point which is, I embed a list in a paragraph. It's okay to collapse the paragraph into a single line when replying, but what about the bullet points? Hmmm... So "leave it as it is" is probably the better choice here. Not all automatisms are helpful. People will always be smarter than their machinery. Hopefully. > But I experienced that a MUA editor showed the wanted signes when > editing and while sending, it changed the signs. It was visible after > sending, not before sending. So _that_ is what I would call a problem: Intransparent automatic behaviour. If I writteled liek that than the programme ist not suposed to change it and the value is -150, not –150 in va_start(char *format, …) and then printf(“Hello world!\n“); (yes, that is the dreaded greek question mark ;, not a semicolon ;), and that wasn't a smiley, so don't replace anything, and in Germany with translation use druckf(„Hallo Welt!“). A sentence ends with a full stop. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 13:51:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14D5331CD7 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:51:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jQJK5Tj8z3RMc for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:51:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MxV4T-1izeio32rJ-00xrgK; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:51:39 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:51:39 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611155139.166ef9b3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200611153924.62a3719a@archlinux> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> <20200611153924.62a3719a@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:cwBnVbGzd/DgXBN2sJNI3/Yiq68IMUUJNr4hqMQPZJT5uI2khAM L/HIPpKuEKT7WpY0ejRtxoeJ31Srp8Ql4w2t7yvmpMlOgMVOLCUBpeNmxxKnQOwSJOqatGd 7eB2Nqn9mciiTNaMSIJYEXG4L5rNiBgmro6tyRrkPOZ3F0n3J8lmQFdfJwf8P4dUenuWQhx XvUE58ZNUIqVJX6R9/Ysw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ugFPX7Xu6aQ=:CO/h7CXNG6fp0/A95i7KaR BFlve4RTvBKxIGwQeGXHYCHot8Fy3CrITVLkqv1dXl6kotrt+BkllXZxi0lKHfy/hI7wOyTVy 91bZHP8aycs3wwfaBb2NLMqxDzx8VLpJCn1W8q9EKR0v9a8C7Euuocp18AM4Xf6N9qzUIhdj9 F2uxxV3OARANMDJs4+gIHKKbsayJ4hKoEvxa1bw6+26Ml1X8oQCgcksw/GkdODtLfy+qgd1kH DiqktoKUeT684bIxhavcmNN80WQrviq7rfnIWk7HlyVVmB/djwpiYpQruJChNXnygpU2r2kNe 9s4IMKwSQ2goV7BAx1f4ptMUzo1ag670Nzs/nkU3jokKfZKpU/XNCgm8+SoDVI7TnXNCqV7m7 L4uEPKed8EJxHg/UxuEnl8BQ+U8r5HhgoXgfchdpItvCrB8q1kHih2zUhHsHKy0mYeRpd1ZCO RKjqyohCLM7zNK9fNrtYuD863EsD4QU878w0TgahxsMvFl9Ww03pgj6xiGpFyL1hCihdL3+UU a6E1Ezf2GvxWEp4IDDG9WPG37x2i3GwM1gjnuehE9Ekuvh67/Mp8U4kLQQm4NY1AkYAsCIRx5 XQIVOFM4uKaU2T9dGDrT0ZtuH6NELhSjElJfZsxDKlY86qejhZhfKUebGTm9yoNX5p6bcI5dB 1a21xIubUauq8CCKp9N2GohtFvcRuvVwdyL+YGb9Zzq6600T8RhKow98uSzyvWDy7LU3pNBfe 05eqlNq+khdW5IcvNjgxrrfjz033kEJ7jCzNZ0c8TLaqLAuRV5wSgZYxSlqS5WCv8T14Ofheh MS/qDVI7MAcW7TX7CovsnmXVBkjHnuvShNoLBBW6dvuuCyND9k= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jQJK5Tj8z3RMc X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.76 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.162:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.31)[0.308]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.31)[0.310]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.74)[0.739]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:51:46 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:39:24 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrot= e: > Rr=E9sum=E9: Apart from "Thunderbird" you unlikely will find any decent G= UI > (or TUI) MUA providing the default to set the cursor above the quotes. >=20 > Note! Being able to adjust the settings is not the same as "the > default". SICR! Note that even _if_ the MUA (web-based or not) does quote the message being replied to (normally with quote prefix, in few cases with header-only), there's nothing (!) stopping the user from moving the cursor below the quoted text and starting the actual reply text. On that way, it's even possible to trim the original message if needed, and the point _where_ the reply should start (there can be more than one!) can be selected by the user. Maybe this sounds snobbish and elitist (my computer is now stuck in that mode): The user is in charge when he is in control. Luckily, even the most stupidestest MUAs allow at least a minimum of control (call it "workaround" if you want). --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:03:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA767332133 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:03:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jQZM5g02z3SJ7 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:03:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dwilde1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id c12so3562336lfc.10 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:03:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=z6c7EUF6LnWsAR1VvnpyKn6sA5S1fLcIBqZNFyB1PN8=; b=LcYs5N70rDkzj//Zz64Nu2TvVzJTS0WUrIkrAiB/UcKUq6DeU5ZTFgBXyAMsMBf372 ELhRsofThat1tJANp0Pp18WgdL0/gicmcDwF/cfrPmZWCootyhdQJxLN637n4SSvYLgb XG7gRS6J5ab4Vm9QkA7j+PyTfNlq7Sbl2iCbIYDxZUfmxHg/Dgm2/cxlw4nWUj9XPpjg ItDdiSUVTOTUWD6jhSdUEFmPn0F8Uq+5EaehkO1zHv91FWEub3rVmICvCN3R9zoLP0JD knyIstCn8MRNu8kKNOiJPAvKJL/f3dHgGMtM4+CxfCjNUFjxUVxhd1Ozw1XmPHenH404 neVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=z6c7EUF6LnWsAR1VvnpyKn6sA5S1fLcIBqZNFyB1PN8=; b=N8YbQAIhtv7WzeoksSrVt7I+/vl7hRbt3apouxSDjP6YQsYMEPs/KYOySU9l3AmEIV 0gSQCtzbWnikuoHc83IztJJiZR60Fq/O8zeC5Ouwe6mDw+sAHcmY4rfLT7/efYsLmrir VFO1l5oQcdN1Zm+DInnfB5x5x/AEdkyrhQBh+yBvZY/Lu4vuIe2ykMCz8DeJXiYKpDXt yGp+uOhxNk3od3+T8eesaKeQLbn7cliWNv32qvAe7LyCuFDWjRfeHUyumG8e8dxL64eU HZrt5xBHGvPi3RSS8XHDt/yoWDCtV8JNnrscZTQvQOU9XbPcvD5YkySURILs86JIvApQ 5kzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wK2ceH660YvQfz1/a8C8gDIY5gI/nZxgB7k1te+RwyDkY9jM9 8jFR42RqApvPjzvMm9FElC/zArxmoYfKuZMTLwTMHh9n X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxUwKD7iFPaA7bhJYe4OQOPn54VXZ4temDVTvNy8lKJ+81KqaXENfnKFntLVywY3+kGi9WJiUuXtug6Au6plf0= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5597:: with SMTP id v23mr4441847lfg.42.1591884233716; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:03:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6504:47:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: dwilde1@gmail.com In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611085616.0000514b@seibercom.net> <20200611152205.b305ae0c.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Donald Wilde Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:03:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jQZM5g02z3SJ7 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=LcYs5N70; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dwilde1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::132 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dwilde1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.11 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[dwilde1@gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.66)[-0.662]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.89)[-0.887]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[gmail.com]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.44)[0.438]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::132:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:03:56 -0000 On 6/11/20, Donald Wilde wrote: > This must be the eternal subject that keeps FreeBSD users from getting > Real Work (TM) done... > > Oh, wait, no "top posting!" Do y'alls realize (or remember, for a lot > of us) that this was _also_ the top subject for discussion on > freebsd-questions back in the 00s??? > Dang it, got bit by the @#$!! reply-to-list thing myself... sigh... > On 6/11/20, Polytropon wrote: >> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:56:16 -0400, Jerry wrote: >>> Even worse are the number of responders who fail to clip out unneeded >>> portions of the message. I am aware that there are users who consider >>> "truncating" parts of a message as blasphemy. However, without proper >>> pruning, an email replied to numerous times in a virtual cornucopia of >>> styles, becomes an unintelligent mess. >> >> Yes! This is a good description of what I meant with "showing >> respect" or "to deal with" the message. If your headers are >> kept working, and you can also use "[...]" or "[dd]" (or any >> other indication that you clipped something) the "quoted" >> aspect is still fully valid. And if you worry about the >> blasphemy: there's always the reference (!) to the original >> message which can be consulted. >> >> Thanks for mentioning this one - I thought I was the only one >> who noticed that. Oh, must be my PC's snob mode again... ;-) >> > > Hear, hear. IMHO, crafting a good explanation of "top posting" and how > to configure mail browsers to default to it (or at least how to be > consciously careful about it) would be a Really Good Thing(TM) to add > to the Handbook's "Mailing Lists" section. > > Okay, it would. I'll take that on. Hope I don't crash my TODO stack... :D I will do this... I'm really tired of this subject and I want it to (mostly) go away with more people happy about FreeBSD and talking about other good things! > -- > Don Wilde > **************************************************** > * What is the Internet of Things but a system * > * of systems including humans? * > **************************************************** > -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:04:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C68C33249A for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:04:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jQbN2X1nz3SNC for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:04:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: F4x4sFgVM1nuk1wv0Cir9V8HSWoz_YOmNv80cvgAHGh8XaxZGXRVmyaPDgVgk3c JbpS0meOHEmEvBHmw36tBkfyvYqJAT34js.z8P2UwfoitK2x1ooHIvnSKCKeFfVmq72eh98UH0Xt id6oG33NXFdOrM_MX.LLOSCtfWfcvboTJnYPFu7ouxJMScWKzvf5uSBPskMWBwvEOVw_6Y5HkPCM 34b0_Dn9xx9GbFdMSfM1Ah6s.blHYHsuVkcbii.aPkpYJnJwpdqV86f1OmYR0ttVdjddVuX_D0PF NNomYHOYzi3OMFHBsd80OLsFLPqVfBkObJNFxHgWkF9e9SPWBcgKdjMhOhwXV4H6OBhfDzmfOskJ UpMGvkV9ogfbtO9h0vvwdblaG2pZt8xQsBuoFt8i63wAHYzKSBtpn3dJpt4IYzbvN2jiZLNCJRW1 CqWSFhnLd12AeK33_SBuW.MV9YS47XCTLj25kv6Lf4a1iLCinclZwer5EYG8mgc1lQKxLbxhIiNt _9Gd8rHjn9s37t1a3cZcWnej2cEEfHlXhVgAgGwdsE68n2DgOadayptOIcsW2bGFzs7_H_sPzgZc itpQEmpuIeLdYUMN7ws.drJQFSCraUtT_fQCRpKRQEFsBLNfJKdYT28LanHLM4auYzA4FDqyPfD. k.MiYHDB6l8wMF007.Pw2ATmdj5pHxNUoaNFbD4Z6f8ZcEOr1qHPf8SJ.Ra6dALlzl8ek.FU2Cwy fxvIMRDlLQkkKeu3MrbKBkEH2gQgRTaSXCe.7fYSeZLu4Bl4CwkDyNO_ksonOQVGqdmXQIPn44oG 0KBppAR4Q3.ET4cuHvTPebQjnIH9oGVkahQ_eBhPQatcZdBd8kYeAVlL6fWNufHqfXee8m5coPiT NvVbXtnVhVozRH9PKS4B3WPHVHtbxo494KtQCkGfquSPWUUzM.HZb_D3cm51ejOge80kti5KeQO6 oGUw_5_RLihoMBpvVBhC0Uy.dHAOaTvE6JS6oYkdWNbRatuhJZVho8kBk3qlPeImRrWO3RCgjuAr ad5VzTvzVUhlQtexUSnxSe3Q9Igcs7rvsskuUTKyGBAcU6EdBpXfpjEcvFwjfuzylxx16NjQHoHD DUHgWz9Jd22XUmID26FAzSzCKm2Q.S4cfzFad0t5rNseygCFiyy58hGRmJVEMpdcOpm4MZrooqTR WvyVODSV.SEZAeODjKKkaXxTXP9uEI642hgDkYO.nAUdoF2R5HWA3k7LNljMRJRZD0S52BgiB4RM BOdL84UEIiaH2JBzXttCkTaD_g2Ziw6OBJU9le8_EK9qvj1pswhWgey04TVK8lhN2xVEfGDw1jm7 8QiQcKQ0sAHAbalwOId1ZzK.bVOPWl8aA2O36aMMJDjb_QJfE5WglG4mtDsznobvEBwe90q5oKlR bfvRE9HrbEg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:04:46 +0000 Received: by smtp425.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f7c25f7a709c728b0470575248958902; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:04:44 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:04:45 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611160445.05644b87@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <5d81bc6c-991d-2fc2-ff88-059d182b7c23@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <5d81bc6c-991d-2fc2-ff88-059d182b7c23@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jQbN2X1nz3SNC X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.03 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.176.206:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.53)[-0.531]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.021]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.176.206:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:04:49 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:42:53 -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >I agree with your points, Polytropon. I would just add one more that >sets me off: the footer of the message with legalese saying something >like it is confidential, destined to intended recipients only, and >attempting to oblige me to whatever they attempt to put as >restrictions. -- Disclaimer: By sending an email to ANY of my addresses you are agreeing that: 1. I am by definition, "the intended recipient". 2. All information in the email is mine to do with as I see fit and make such financial profit, political mileage, or good joke as it lends itself to. In particular, I may quote it where I please. 3. I may take the contents as representing the views of your company if I so wish. 4. This overrides any disclaimer or statement of confidentiality that may be included or implied in your message. -- Sent from my iHAL 9001+ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:10:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7262E332996 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:10:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100090aa577.8799c188f3d4bbd6c4cfc3c8dd82cb10@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jQjk0SR2z3SqJ for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:10:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100090aa577.8799c188f3d4bbd6c4cfc3c8dd82cb10@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591884618; x=1594476618; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=5bRqUvxourUK0T4uzwGTcFR60at7qb2g+spvCOi66iU=; b=tTZPth5psZQcP25TLLnmgzrXvXa7TlDlnHX/Gm57EPAww7Hsv+xoo6xQUHsjaZF2cKhSwyNVCBxObcPXpXEI4XY27nkXg24gTux1hriLYOH3gydQBI1+0UYeIj+JRgVSqSkqnJEOMs4Lm7uN1ZpRGzL+Nm1Beik71+laAHE2pf4= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDkwYWE1NzcuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:10:12 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:10:11 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jjNuA-0002Va-N7; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:10:06 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:10:06 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Yuri Pankov , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611151006.6fd1b33af49b7b07e8f4994f@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jQjk0SR2z3SqJ X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=tTZPth5p; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100090aa577.8799c188f3d4bbd6c4cfc3c8dd82cb10@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100090aa577.8799c188f3d4bbd6c4cfc3c8dd82cb10@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.72 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.002]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100090aa577.8799c188f3d4bbd6c4cfc3c8dd82cb10@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100090aa577.8799c188f3d4bbd6c4cfc3c8dd82cb10@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:10:19 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > So does every other GUI/web MUA. I don't know why it is so hard for the > FreeBSD community to get that conventions have changed (for better or > worse I don't know but they have). For the very simple reason that that have not changed. There is a different set of conventions appropriate in the corporate email context (and probably personal email but threads are less common there). To whit top posting and retention of complete context. Most modern MUAs default to supporting that convention since it is the more common use - that does not make it the right convention for all purposes. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:21:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC1B332C2E for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:21:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jQyF31H4z3TV3 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:21:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id w18so6467322iom.5 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:21:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Empyk6H4dRkWYGlQ6iZsqMnSWBTGHXWPGJWMpmjDlU0=; b=F5UtVH7DnlpPyoiM5wj6qJzbzTx3D2z95G9RJJmd0sR/QOXVgqyMiQdXTapE3LBifq fVc8YnwYJZgMDI1fsTOk8dQH10ESNuZB0p9bxTAsWY3vw1eq9V42OR4CWb1sEcgYieKu oepxckx25ihlf6DnH4UPK+rWyidxwDadZPTLSiqgMwTRdQJCPbtPxyz93kWkv8FwXzSf n9Jaafrw9IkIH4fwpIOZIlJ1PKCE/IePvuI2huG0Qw+j8v5EZtcF6Ill0yFi2GQ7/D+h p0dwzVKL80GKeRekyXGyObtTQHc3Sk5+dLtFj18E7T8YTWozXGEVKCWkBBEiXdcHzbSk NSJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Empyk6H4dRkWYGlQ6iZsqMnSWBTGHXWPGJWMpmjDlU0=; b=JWuROyFBSt+oNfEu5d6nNnSzxJ0jTJkniRKUKvxDQmqKO4jLWX786O/h2+rQbOBU+0 gK861S09qJL3++gN4c6sFb5clolE53rK+3Ijo6ojE8fxNPb1i1umH8DwokkvNUpIvor/ ak63CG3TT0pFpazBSC8L9A1IVgJl7xROUqdWwbtrMaAkjzY7ibBtN2hISCJYTdYMVWap w5NhKcV9zOl/RZr+pvni+vUn2umzrhI85ujGdjljcJHUqMT+xZ2AHfY2icZGp3mPXrtI UPqdOwIRAuLBet38UngfSkGQRNikuGKKHUCWvyeLk8zmVxCCl/PhKrexRd3AMyvm7dVJ XLyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533W1uN86Pnb7ClsAPtg/wM6jZUlQ05yUyiLObzZX+/QSf2120WO KXVgy563JnbHunWtW22JltsiWd9lfBRQZg7vmR0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxdU7g0EhizmCq9jWSiwpfylakCnQUjtvrP9Uhip4UGdO6pqKduClHpv/Yc7fSkVr+AgSubq03EiTHYllILh+c= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:1448:: with SMTP id 69mr8469651iou.83.1591885268322; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:21:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611151006.6fd1b33af49b7b07e8f4994f@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200611151006.6fd1b33af49b7b07e8f4994f@sohara.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:20:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Yuri Pankov , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jQyF31H4z3TV3 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=F5UtVH7D; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.68 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.025]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.658]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:21:10 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:10 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400 > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > So does every other GUI/web MUA. I don't know why it is so hard for the > > FreeBSD community to get that conventions have changed (for better or > > worse I don't know but they have). > > For the very simple reason that that have not changed. > So let's use EBCDIC since it is older and more "standard" then this new fangled thing known as ASCII (UniCode is still an unproven experiment!) > There is a different set of conventions appropriate in the > corporate email context (and probably personal email but threads are less > common there). To whit top posting and retention of complete context. > Oddly people usually say inline is the better way to preserve context (I actually agree). > Most modern MUAs default to supporting that convention since it is > the more common use - that does not make it the right convention for all > purposes. > > And for the very same reason you (the list in general not "you" personally) shouldn't crap all over people who are unaware of this yet almost every time some new user does top post they get a mild scolding at best (and more often a nasty note). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:27:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA85332F75 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:27:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jR5s5lGpz3V2D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:27:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id t8so5566264ilm.7 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:27:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8vCM7PjXh3efHA3i7m3vSboj3+rcjWAKOsXOpMkKxxQ=; b=K1qaksKo+M4ZGqjTM4DyAHH+Zwd0EFf2AKAhTnbokU5ftQ4VVlW9l0+C17yTEu5h6m dKi2ZiTMa/u/cFUawAzy95qLRiWvG1p18WW9dAVPewwgpi90XgRfv9VhZUETSsUYGfw/ hWjuaATUwL/V/HvNc/PYlGu0lTDd+FuTdFPY445wmZDQX+enQBT9Pr9fSPknAmo3AbXh RlQrwoq/l0633PSaR0SmG3mJiUCUdkRdQFWgwhgugTV0k0cYPotLllQSiv3Bi1QaEA5O /pkmwzvUCG5iVG9yeVatMzYa+KC8fHJ5zrI2RWXWhlhqFZUo9F39kd5yz/rx533RkUVt wvNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8vCM7PjXh3efHA3i7m3vSboj3+rcjWAKOsXOpMkKxxQ=; b=JD3UUwRZR5E+ZVLSRJg+7LJc4gibXKS3Wob1YAppBKCI4NOx8jC9Z3hBE0X2qANE5Z Rdym4gRJj96FNzCYl23oN/M1dhJxutnARsISsX0nGAKR/yQaIU+OrI6qmu+N27Gli8UC J78aufKa0YBI4RyIcj/3iNJ3PDpgOz+fISr3zpwVGcSR1aUilS7D1zwHQfMwFbmWwc7H ZBI9TICYelO61kXyC9Wz6Wr+AzmnjIfoKYleEq15RcwyWrT5rRy6fvMddPtELfZfsfIE hq7d5ChccBU1TLlVBFw0KhUmg7ySDVLCU65yFkVqlInxF9rbh/FzRvMZyAxUQ6tSfcCK Ijkw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ZuWARDaahnb9XUcfKgrTbEloC5OEhSRBoUJn58Nv8gYfHV0wf /Pqok5/nk1T2a5gn8FPjLkTy0flW7FZnxwiernWhDAErnD0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz85ZrsK0fi/xjqEp4bRGTBqt1ysdx8mVwPsgzZ0dt2tpDDPVSafoq6FmAZc73kvvf6cUKeaCG9Ol2Nci0AB5U= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:10c:: with SMTP id t12mr8041097ilm.187.1591885664619; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:27:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> <20200611153924.62a3719a@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200611153924.62a3719a@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:27:29 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jR5s5lGpz3V2D X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=K1qaksKo; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.018]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.772]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:27:46 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >So does every other GUI/web MUA. > > Again, apart from email web interfaces, that quasi nobody considers a > decent MUA, what are all those FLOSS MUAs the majority of BSD and Linux > users are using, usually doing by default? > Talk about living in a bubble! Here is a list of the most popular mail clients (in slang terms MUA's as used loosely in this thread) not a single one of them is listed so far in this discussion. Summary: The web crushes all! (If you don't include smartphone MUA's) https://emailclientmarketshare.com/ -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:30:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7C533313B for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:30:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x32d.google.com (mail-wm1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jR9F5JVgz3VX2 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:30:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id g10so5159401wmh.4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:30:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jnNoGHoVV9VBnWyfaclW4aGNTJnTVD8bHmiAOicLku8=; b=Krp0jvpM9TGnWXK+dH9C0c+weNP/2RO8Fmw3AXKBky54z+VQ+pnkAvRJ66+Gt1Neh9 bZdYwHtzZFGP7g6/xyr6TTxl5ELpHfe617fyVTziMFo3I8MUSSxeSvWLhg2YfxH1Kcs0 iMuHnHalGxGeEcFKe2+kV4odIf5MnkUURrAyWqFBf4J5yhDitFloaqp/i8qtuArH9W30 dUVn7Whi3k59fcqIRyI9XIif/b5bUaU+56xWcMA5JIgUnRGWoRo9t2Z+bOAnCo7xld1H bj7nmK2HwoSn1B4fh8G6R0ZTj4NEc0rTnDZBXzav4L0Gp4qto02D5F+feS6QsI8vopc9 TTHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532SFJtkK97ygF5ZY0iMw0EbqfoQhwrcqxY1F3aU+DGgbE0JVJzm IeibZYou4son6FbyvZAiP3VGnMHB X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz7b5WxDkLJ+X84ruFKFNAGNU229AFa5+loSWI7pYdftq94byQPlMnSKKYWUz1MPBAgLGu7nw== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:ce15:: with SMTP id m21mr8596647wmc.117.1591885840105; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([2.222.66.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b81sm4754833wmc.5.2020.06.11.07.30.38 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:30:37 +0100 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611153037.163cb6e7@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20200611155139.166ef9b3.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> <20200611153924.62a3719a@archlinux> <20200611155139.166ef9b3.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jR9F5JVgz3VX2 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.37 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[googlemail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[2.222.66.16:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.019]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[googlemail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[googlemail.com,quarantine]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::32d:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.36)[-0.357]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[googlemail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:30:42 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:51:39 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > Note that even _if_ the MUA (web-based or not) does quote > the message being replied to (normally with quote prefix, > in few cases with header-only), there's nothing (!) stopping > the user from moving the cursor below the quoted text and > starting the actual reply text. > > On that way, it's even possible to trim the original message > if needed, and the point _where_ the reply should start (there > can be more than one!) can be selected by the user. Some people have argued that it's right to start the cursor at the top to encourage better quality bottom posting for that reason. Also in interleaved posting one often starts typing closer to the top than the bottom. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:42:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5370333671 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:42:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic303-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic303-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jRR53SXFz3WBZ for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:42:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: KXmoEr4VM1n.9A7ASt8yCQyHfHzlSiKrG1UduvaA353zBnP_3mAvahMVBdmuh55 vyv4aithXzTqdtPGxZ99yJfuXWPZfAONFXBElho0wDz2oZ_f.E4VamkUANL_6Sqvj6bB6679sbYj DbmSKyCQtWT5hjzmuZx9Z0GiS_hIgOgZUqfQRrL7KMXiNLpFT3NsHfrhDk6vVSQWprtCeVTWMZoC W3JHmv6EEnQgkmeMzM3xcW.FUYxn602T.y0hDIQyoA41pfCcLM4xE0fNYAUh.SY2Que_xogNcqnq PTqIlVP8u9Dhjzid1Bk30LwmgKig4rBxtjOGSbrlm014byF74R_fSYJ.Yc8cXo9BLYLfIVgoc4t_ 1iSaTTFjtHGBfQSHT7CokReimfqyOpJ7O5LrLv0hym_So_9Kuil7fh92tvjpxJtjO1Iw2K.DTA5L xyZMTM7hJeCK00D4uaOSf0V5YLBpl0mzu88jSVrNC8yyyRANtBk8YCzQYCzEbF1AgJ8JadHFhlSh HLdtxHfbHsJgQ5W2lP7rsjw2zV8Agql5r36HibVFK1sx0BjOyGKbkbeT88rW1czPVz0AaxLBxd3k 2JlqngMpMkQIdeP_HtKuROeEzyVx_cx0bUwv8D0.dS_nLCGWzY_MNf2wg_L2c4NMqIweZ1zupphh rV2gpd2CuO7TtGJeR_ET0EadZY_eHTZA1Q2EiFwn8Vkh2lvcalrSigiuZj0YjOJqsAX5Kk6Y5pCq Coz32bhgqKEjl5Ve8b9_4smZkWm40mffS2plYwevF3UxACKuFU1n1I3adh.JRh8PANTJT5A3nvV9 KKSE0Xunaq_dcvYnUDa5zNutRdAXzeVB9HObOe1oYMBvSB2sjME2nMIwtvQFbuA_VGoEE67PNqdr R_nAhtpchyY_joGVmYQPJOPk6kSiGzF.q9gWxjjt5twCWGLKNtFvshsaAwmmcE8f5_P4WMGPbin1 iMolVunFThXFUqHVqMxASDiEVWtweWGV7TmXKegsg4irGc.QsPeOGbPk92IRgoRQS6JOtmWsFImP 6h3qBnCgL6Dw3C.r1sntvHGqpMzjfr0UtAQUmKHkqOUrV3JIEUd7ewfDLYtfLbE85OzxXh.0ARY0 f4s7u97sH_.aQQ0BXdKgPa5ggacZIqhzXlWpTHtWEcbl0T4GFQh715GxfpQhtjJkZnddOaUHzLJY 7_PvHsUZYK8QepTxSEFIIpuN.nLgddums6QMEEglJuWagzgCnoXfB58g8y4aBdBt0QYUHP3CIEic DDBn0vTHRsrP9wPanAgZ4.p0Wa4lipmiKrwGPhBtopqNAd.tw8KSF1iafYYaOYnan8Mrt1HgDfmf K2LA9LfwBACwDj_SyaaEkf_EWyAdBmL6Pa1oivceQy8l2FxeW5zaleX17ws7KbKb57LCNMLMtHj8 P1ZirWjPyoITS Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:42:40 +0000 Received: by smtp418.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f79a22f7edd08239b2b5206027631cff; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:42:38 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:42:39 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611164239.08b12002@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> <20200611153924.62a3719a@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jRR53SXFz3WBZ X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.22 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.178.201:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.72)[-0.717]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.024]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.178.201:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:42:42 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:27:29 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < >freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> >So does every other GUI/web MUA. >> >> Again, apart from email web interfaces, that quasi nobody considers a >> decent MUA, what are all those FLOSS MUAs the majority of BSD and >> Linux users are using, usually doing by default? >> > >Talk about living in a bubble! Here is a list of the most popular >mail clients (in slang terms MUA's as used loosely in this thread) not >a single one of them is listed so far in this discussion. Summary: >The web crushes all! (If you don't include smartphone MUA's) > >https://emailclientmarketshare.com/ Market share says nothing about usage, especially not if you run a BSD or Linux. Apple MUAs and Outlook are not provided by FreeBSD ports. Note, I'm extensive using iPads, for things they can do way better than BSD and Linux. If possible I do not use an Internet browser or mailer available for an iPad, since this is a domain, that is better supported by BSD and Linux. If somebody is pleased by top market share applications only, there is no reason to use BSD or Linux at all. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:48:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89878333D9C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:48:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jRZF2nSGz3X9G for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:48:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id y5so6539837iob.12 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:48:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=TtaAUzUMtHRobmnWAeT58pTXA0+uGDReYhZbnGEcEyw=; b=vAPZw04VAanj6327lOpUzzVyunl4qO87AMX+WfOyEbmT5fDwAeO3N3NnDEXYi33MjM PK4Pq/ua7k40zKEoVmf5ODAgg0HvMS+R12Q6dZXnLe+LOKm2Gnw3oZiP69l/FljNiZeW otfwxoPzeEutjBuNT5E5cHZen+v02lEVuS4ZB/fFWTaW/yK25Z+UrZFRPmMxs95UrXmx +XvsF7e4MKK4k6927Hs267IIOlTz5X+RGozxTBGv+8BaLGtkCaLTXVqY+3uP009LaGdg JF5ITdAArcrCSokKkWv7uwmu3fYtHmbnpUuWKwlr0Ifnkiay1Kv/ELFDbDLxEVV/7yDi bLcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=TtaAUzUMtHRobmnWAeT58pTXA0+uGDReYhZbnGEcEyw=; b=pmCb8nZYlESOalfkK5pXstZzd8vIM1V0WqxGPaWaufYJFkpxaY3L/Eg35EhjJrx98r xHjI16nwN0Psbk9ognrWCP9OD8VQRT9sfOFC6XxR8bTh/3l0OCyqBiIQHE33aWie5/Ci qA3BjGIc+L5uTLHyyAUHT99zB9D8hM2681BfaL8Q5tqOzmnRkBNH7uiFeLz3NwXWjGtC zc0xDLtfJANGaexMia9yTaoDPX7HIMo/5Us+uRjyLBgqmKo6uNo1S+FM+W+bBxvG0vV5 Rm9XE2rIJ1hWEvf6rnGLRlhEVRNlMOPlr0sEY2fizKc6OB5rUP68RmeiZbl5wGjUKf/+ be9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532fFGCiC+8qIF4LYNrX6hLTLDgQmjZ/wTpv9yyvk2DkPCY07CXn Pr68g4Y1WpJ5L0z5CLzVoLaut7Te90f1OC7tgxl1Hw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxknUafX792X3LN5h53oS2KrsNAIeR0vgblcUMdW6MaLxF8ZX9Xva61RdxIvguBCHhse1RugyhRq8e/igkOyF0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:491:: with SMTP id y17mr8826133iov.72.1591886932076; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:48:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: From: Michael Schuster Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:48:39 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: freeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jRZF2nSGz3X9G X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=vAPZw04V; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of michaelsprivate@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=michaelsprivate@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.41 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.961]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.983]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.46)[-0.462]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:48:54 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 15:21 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:11 AM RW via freebsd-questions < > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > You can use gmail with a separate email client if you like. The > > servers support pop/imap/smtp. > > > > > Case in point I use gmail not because of its ease of use per se (even > though it is better then most standalone MUA's) I use it because it is an > off-site backup of years worth of correspondence that is too valuable to > worry about losing in a hardware failure. > You can configure most email clients to leave messages on the server... Cheers From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:49:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C11333F1E for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:49:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jRb62pPSz3Wvw for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:49:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id z2so5675216ilq.0 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:49:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=itVeTw9lNwv5laHMgdWSyRlRyIadOB06w4uOMsLMlag=; b=O2Ju7tD7NDsqKz90WHB/OmOBZD5ebffcAo+TAOOJwvVxuEsTW6ENgmXkit9QwXpqQe 5yZOOjn/2F3o96fbUwZQT1jV6WrvIEpkMblMRttZZ5KSOROCb+CrpHyDCjRWPQTTo5Cn d+T4sDOMFE6Ejme+XKTh3P7AUdjRl5YIrzy2BeLAmBv855HDcv3JjoOnEYCZpizbf2J3 vSwlURStDCXY3oaR+LJEenv16ey55Elug6+bmPB0vX2s484KyV3AxmC8yw3fjqR0tc0j W2tcx7R6xat8gtmMCNppTA/fhYGsLi+vdjasOL6akcHrNRUkCZY+ivFdPtaguqfk+qb1 YtWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=itVeTw9lNwv5laHMgdWSyRlRyIadOB06w4uOMsLMlag=; b=tFR+UqM21153RjW8/UIEE5hm2lv/G/xOia2DZrMs0CmZRkyAweCO0elu6KzZpVRAP5 8VN8yHJR+Y3cU6AkyeH5WJuO/2y430PCZ11bUcvAbB8rymkx8bbVpESih8CvDb6z3cSb PDbrwQY9/CLUX7n6VONq0xxfsyi+Yhp8GWIu90/yDhnFFbS91mAo8VKV1591FhW2kAIU Y+mg4qzaqMirCXyfItVJlPw3tBRUlybTqK3MotmnYSMKKGAFyXMqI1/8LxaBhf7WhRA+ wuQcH0h8RJn77v5otVxdp3oJQT9hLZvaxvWMRG4eCwgyycGruz+CUqpSeyG5tLXWE8Qy n83g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532GR36+15VBIKmX+pSmqeh8poH+tUbAteGcS/KVcxQj5KwiHXKo eJtge7UMXuRiaqISu4/U+vvqu4IXDSguPZGRBso= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzWVX/tW5F7jA1i+0tzhsngK74w/nTMhHauoc4QPY+hnRv6gHlWxsNoXgtQGFRPKkbiuxAXQPpRarzmNRtiidM= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d343:: with SMTP id a3mr8287093ilh.29.1591886977445; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:49:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> <20200611153924.62a3719a@archlinux> <20200611164239.08b12002@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200611164239.08b12002@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:49:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jRb62pPSz3Wvw X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=O2Ju7tD7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.85 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.018]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.83)[-0.828]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::129:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:49:39 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:42 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:27:29 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:39 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < > >freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> >So does every other GUI/web MUA. > >> > >> Again, apart from email web interfaces, that quasi nobody considers a > >> decent MUA, what are all those FLOSS MUAs the majority of BSD and > >> Linux users are using, usually doing by default? > >> > > > >Talk about living in a bubble! Here is a list of the most popular > >mail clients (in slang terms MUA's as used loosely in this thread) not > >a single one of them is listed so far in this discussion. Summary: > >The web crushes all! (If you don't include smartphone MUA's) > > > >https://emailclientmarketshare.com/ > > Market share says nothing about usage, especially not if you run a BSD > or Linux. Apple MUAs and Outlook are not provided by FreeBSD ports. > Note, I'm extensive using iPads, for things they can do way better than > BSD and Linux. If possible I do not use an Internet browser or mailer > available for an iPad, since this is a domain, that is better supported > by BSD and Linux. If somebody is pleased by top market share > applications only, there is no reason to use BSD or Linux at all. > It matters because most new users who are coming to the list with questions have likely not successfully set FreeBSD up well enough yet to be able to send mail of any kind from it. Take Brandon Halsey for example. I am surprised the attitude some people on the list have towards new users has not sent him running for the hills yet. For example someone spit all over him for using a non-FreeBSD MUA when in fact he was still struggling to get a bootable system. If this is not the height of aloofness and arrogance I don't know what is. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:52:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD74334250 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:52:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jRfP6FbYz3Xhf for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:52:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MpUQm-1j9I7r0rnA-00prJx; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:52:27 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:52:27 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Michael Schuster Cc: freeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611165227.d39a9d39.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8IZaW0c73JtshZ1IuaiTJdtYvbHxGBv/f1/dj1DbYSEIbsNrMBn Ds29mZB7ROpskUWD09xEoCH9GlkTAU14PFhJgQ3BYLnqBMTgNdCDCvwNLi47IhPtPqIqNSd X3FpbXLk8pBiPgyN4Hq1d3DrfCCLGApwfsxaZcOdSB0r2jj8PXgEV1Zzzw2dAzw1cWyQfDi +RZpZkoK1sNcTDh8XJxwQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:v/9CMHHS1CY=:3do9s9hVczMeX4l+gjlvBP myHkCWZR+UEvHl+qNEG4a/j5EGltQd33lepDYZu5Ct85uvvzoF5niQqCgbQfjOqDhk5pZSKXZ uH1rIXT1BTNObGwrj5piDQMmCCyhBsyDW2cA6yI0DOZ9qp1DyK7mEqmX/qSednlfQTfPOufqJ zalgznGMLS96f51Vv3gAEXe10J/+vhoxEpMrGiPZipLdn8OLhI6Oy5XGCQwJ5k4LG2qDFtszt 6I2uFIGwH2ebtMj9pFHXRyJsw1TcbYwQvc8wrArwkXnziXxgHGSxsQ5F89tz9aic4Miw6t9QX pIXE+0o3FNXSqobgOnxPNP6AHfNDcl0UJELnlwvldLoIhaKoEFOlKzQxTiqJUAIG22+KuzXgz ZwTba/lZoPIgiLIJNDF8e7Pz7uPM6LUQk6kMRW06svHWBys+hpheoff4SmBgP7DxgHZPAcF4/ rTGJPpdP4RWz2YWCq7rVOkFpTHRg44JHYJniI2Dg81vkISaDfS560PMAMqGF31xBhDj/c/Gz4 BOC35FgB58orv79yBlGA2sqmPHk1sZReBB3eHYGCm9HwawsvQPfd12IJXb9S4RhBbJEj5A+wn MupgtWHuEIy5FMlNqD7C7R8hVpzniPCwThueA3v9CI2DRdS/AM0o4xgB6AdhicOBz1DbnoJ6l PIwDMClB0550q7y97kLiA7vnEaZNBxl1IQ0jNs2XpTJ84QsKlviAVgYtJaXmAPurHgj7WjVsD vqBcY8zKKWYU5qhXfvZChjznhigvxWgEAGLVEla1d3L0iBsIv2Qw6rDNoAwhISjqWI+KwNeMR /ZnZbpWeHDmCYdqU09jCnxDvIsGYhYMqBFY68yiy8iZP+6A6qHJtmyzJ8UXSCmZP/MQIxme X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jRfP6FbYz3Xhf X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.134) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.79 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.61)[-0.611]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.162:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.24)[0.243]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.76)[0.762]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:52:31 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:48:39 +0200, Michael Schuster wrote: > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 15:21 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:11 AM RW via freebsd-questions < > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > > > You can use gmail with a separate email client if you like. The > > > servers support pop/imap/smtp. > > > > > > > > > Case in point I use gmail not because of its ease of use per se (even > > though it is better then most standalone MUA's) I use it because it is an > > off-site backup of years worth of correspondence that is too valuable to > > worry about losing in a hardware failure. > > > > You can configure most email clients to leave messages on the server... Both POP3 and IMAP support it. The limit of course is the storage capacity associated with your mail account. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 14:57:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF07E334706 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:57:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jRmC48wGz3Xwx for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:57:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.155]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D5A1D4E662 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:57:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:57:29 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jRmC48wGz3Xwx X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:57:31 -0000 On 6/11/20 7:24 AM, Jerry wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:56:58 +0200, Polytropon commented: >> On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >>> On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon wrote: >>>> However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient >>>> it is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why >>>> sometimes replies are send "twice"… >> >> Attention! Here we have a severe case of "MUA ate my homework"! >> >> Your MUA did modify (!) my original message, so the quote is no >> longer correct (as it imples something that I didn't write). >> >> Aspect 1 is no big problem: It removed my newlines and put >> everything into one long line. This is no big deal with >> regular text ("paragraph text"), but would be with code, >> or something laid out to be a table or a diagram in text. > > I think that could also be attributed to the fact that many users > configure their MUSs to use a specific font and/or font size that > affects the final display of the received email. I prefer a larger font > myself since my eye sight isn't what it was 20 years ago. That's your business, and it us not advisable to push it on recipients of your email. Make sure you are _sending_ messages in plain text, then those who read them will have them according their own preferences, be it larger font to please older eyes like ours, or smaller font to fit into real estate of the window/screen the have. > >> Aspect 2, and that _is_ a problem: I wrote "...", which is >> three periods, and your MUA turned it into "…", which is >> an UTF-8 ellipsis. > > If UTF was used to begin with, that problem would evaporate. I kind of would disagree here. As we are on English speaking mail list, it is annoying to see "foreign" characters, be those hieroglyphs, hiragana, or Cyrillic (even though the last was way of writing where I grew up, - I would prefer to avoid causing annoyance of those who don't understand it). > >> Aspect 2a, a sign of inconsistency, is that your MUA did >> not change my " double quotation marks (inch symbols) into >> correct typographical quotation marks. And how could it? >> Which rules would apply? I'm in Germany, so our quotation >> marks are "two down" and "two up", while in English, you >> usually how "two in" and "two out", something like this, >> incorrectly simplified: >> >> ,,The german style.'' >> >> ``The english style.'' > > I believe the 'American' style would be: > U+201C and U-201D : “American style” > > In any case, I have not seen your 'magical character transpositions" in > my everyday use. Perhaps it is a systemic problem with your MUA. > >> And there are of course differences in AE and BE. You can >> also see that I used tabs and empty lines for format my >> reply. If a MUA eats those, big problem. >> >> A typographically skilled person will even say that using >> something like “that“ is wrong (uses same symbol for start >> and end of quoting). >> >> Similarly, MUAs could mess with the use of dashes ("-" or >> "–") or apostrophes ("'" or "’"). >> >> All those considerations of course lead to breaking my >> carefully crafted message in plain ASCII (not even using >> ISO-8859-1) and lifting it into the UTF-8 multibyte universe >> with all its unsolved questions. ;-) > > I use UTF-8 and find it solves problems, not creates them. Or maybe it just masks problems on your side making you perceive there are none? > >>> A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied >>> sender if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the >>> message was from a list, [...] >> >> As I mentioned, this will only work as long as the relevant >> headers are intact. If some MUA mangles them on the way (yes, >> I'm looking at you, MICROS~1 products!), this will no longer >> work. And as I've been saying this, MICROS~1 products are >> also known for changing message content (see above, aspect 2), >> and even mangling timestamps and timezones. > > "Citation need for products post 2010" I am aware the the latest > versions of MS Outlook can be configured to reformat long lines, (the > removal of soft line breaks) and I actually fine that quite useful. I > use MS Outlook for my job and I find receiving and then trying to read > a long, detailed message in lines restricted to <= 80 characters a real > PIA when I have a 32" HD screen. Of course, YMMV. > >> Oh, and MUAs don't have to be smart. It's much better if the >> people using them are smart. That's fully sufficient. :-) > > And rarely seen in the wild. :) > >>> [...] and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 keys in >>> precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. > > I put that into the same category as being expected to write a cryptic > 30 line XML document to get a simple device to work. > >> Which is inconvenient for users who _wish_ to be CCed in the >> typical "reply to all" manner. > > Simple solution, join the mailing group. don't put the burden on the > email recipient. Take responsibility for your own actions. I know, > extremely rare these days. > >> If I remember correctly, "reply to all" has never been a real >> problem on the FreeBSD mailing lists. Users can set up filtering >> rules to remove duplicate messages they might receive during a >> thread, or remind their counterparts to pay attention to use >> the "reply to mailing list" button. > > Unfortunately, some sneaky 'repliers' include the intended recipient's > name in the "To:" field that complicates filtering messages. > >> Sadly, Sylpheed has a prominent "reply to all" button, whereas >> "reply to mailing list" is a drop-down element next to the >> regular "reply" button. So you can guess which one gets used >> the most. > > Claws-Mail allows a user to create custom folders with predefined > "To:". "CC:" and "Reply-To:" fields, among others. That totally > eliminates all the guess work, assuming the end-user bothered to > properly configure it. Which is great thing, but some of us prefer not to sort messages from inbox until the issue is resolved fully: sort of self-tracking system, and we may need to see all new at a glance to immediately recognize the potential first priority ones. Also, sorting based on what _sender_ made the message kind of unattracts me, maybe it is just my logic. Thanks. Valeri > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:02:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7443A33493B for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:02:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jRtG5dJlz3YVH for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:02:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id j19so1555473ilk.9 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:02:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=k1/f+NuaqvnYIKoPB4LPOHQWHCEM38sAM841DyZ1HD0=; b=aNJcQw03lJ1MTipU2TP4TI3vTo6czRBUvlTtaESJgn8E+UkFW9cC3nbAzN/sD1Ta1H vD8x3KK6s9TrZmH60F8h3U2KycPvnrRJEhd03bahugrVi5lGfWaZjh+2UY3YhHDxwuIz 9Y7QGVqwLTTOfCl20qFZS9758OrZ1VQYDSyYotmybAq0x17Q2y5mjVzxXOaTHAr/hVeD J1swK4OVr4NBsO6fTF9rbJU0bUTiBEXSJQECK8B47tLTb9CAXOgH6qEy9C3r9zDZ7dQO BJlgB3fM+lzkd6L+ogn3PYY0q48/EG6m2nl4d2pOckylsEzXlz/plwAD84XZniddxYoC 7+tQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=k1/f+NuaqvnYIKoPB4LPOHQWHCEM38sAM841DyZ1HD0=; b=bdP1NAs36sOFl0bPmjNde06QalGZY3kp7Z2W830quCHv7NPbVu61/7Y4ohyCBQhJpH hseBcb7l6yTkeQhPS0vcEU+3JgSL+D8zyTzRtYzF5sh4yZFkPg5rKamazgpNSl17jmwU ck//SsiSamJEoP9kgLdM/2LShTTM32daA+1U3O5AXZMQpIFHD0k68RcIgADFvmsT1fHj pzF5ILtKkadNfyFUkT2dCmXr3SMymQo+5AX49+CNGDAuaw75aTXimivk3gL3kk9dliZt BhIn5xv6xS9FU860rNK3TkLeF86j8RtFY7L+iU+rxXI6pa7nTUykHz+S+6MOXDEroONj YS5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530S2u5WynKwojL6z9Y2fFoYVoPMDAxnHuydJ68vb7DOtrHzpWCg 4TIpoZFXOSgxzmTViMdve9kRAcEGdYEwpGyzzOw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZfpWI/QdrjjgkLgg6jiG/iMaPsIjmo52dSU0LWfxby04ZqgPH9CU8fT25nSqW8KVGkSVVDbMA8PRycrcnSyk= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e4a:: with SMTP id s71mr8342350ilb.119.1591887765591; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:02:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:02:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Michael Schuster Cc: freeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jRtG5dJlz3YVH X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=aNJcQw03; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::136 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.04 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.018]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.02)[-1.018]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::136:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:02:47 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:49 AM Michael Schuster wrote: > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 15:21 Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:11 AM RW via freebsd-questions < > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > > > You can use gmail with a separate email client if you like. The > > > servers support pop/imap/smtp. > > > > > > > > > Case in point I use gmail not because of its ease of use per se (even > > though it is better then most standalone MUA's) I use it because it is an > > off-site backup of years worth of correspondence that is too valuable to > > worry about losing in a hardware failure. > > > > You can configure most email clients to leave messages on the server... > Why make a system with many moving parts one I can make one just as good with one moving part? I think in some areas this would be called complicating the crap out of an ant hill. I really think most people if given the option (and equal functionality) would go for the fewest moving parts (given Murphy that is). For what I need and want gmail has all the functionality I want so why add complexity when none is needed? -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:06:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3EF33487C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:06:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100090c0f44.6f0fa0a0072243659dc805439a967946@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jRy63pr6z3Z1l for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:06:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100090c0f44.6f0fa0a0072243659dc805439a967946@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591887967; x=1594479967; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=XT63TXQezlcr/Xgi6KezXdEgnkT6ApES5IFEFYva6rc=; b=phd61YAuowFuqIN3BUNJnmawBvINYPNKEEpBpAvR06lhhTk6IFXfdBnxh4OgkgnxmBxsICG1MHqUmb6lyq9vBCL03odeQdGUK2x1GGeRQx8oRrGRSBnUh2IcEFuaWa+a/UsuX9T+7CfNZ3cZ8h16XJ4HAdvtJ+cKsQykHnLYev4= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDkwYzBmNDQuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:06:04 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:06:02 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jjOmF-0002gs-H3; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:05:59 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:05:59 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Yuri Pankov , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611160559.0203b14f687c029b8311c13d@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611151006.6fd1b33af49b7b07e8f4994f@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jRy63pr6z3Z1l X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=phd61YAu; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100090c0f44.6f0fa0a0072243659dc805439a967946@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100090c0f44.6f0fa0a0072243659dc805439a967946@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.925]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100090c0f44.6f0fa0a0072243659dc805439a967946@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100090c0f44.6f0fa0a0072243659dc805439a967946@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:06:08 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:20:53 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:10 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > > > There is a different set of conventions appropriate in the > > corporate email context (and probably personal email but threads are > > less common there). To whit top posting and retention of complete > > context. > > > > Oddly people usually say inline is the better way to preserve context (I > actually agree). Yes it is, in a mailing list. However in the corporate environment where you might receive a mail thread that has been bouncing around for some time because someone thinks you can usefully contribute. In that context having the complete history available in the message helps even if you have to read the whole stack from the bottom up to catch up. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:11:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880DB335311 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:11:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jS4p635Xz3ZP1 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:11:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.155]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 671BD4E74B for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:11:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:11:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jS4p635Xz3ZP1 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.25 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.155:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:email]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.40)[0.403]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.80)[0.795]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.95)[0.949]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:11:55 -0000 On 6/11/20 7:30 AM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:15:04 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 8:03 AM Yuri Pankov wrote: >> >>> Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >>>> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 06:49:47 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>>>> As to the comment of how common top posting is or not almost >>>>> every web based MUA defaults to it >>>> >>>> Could you mention a few FLOSS BSD or Linux MUAs that by default >>>> sets the cursor above the quoted text? >>> >>> FWIW, Thunderbird does that by default in new accounts, you have to >>> configure it to do otherwise. >> >> So does every other GUI/web MUA. I don't know why it is so hard for >> the FreeBSD community to get that conventions have changed (for better >> or worse I don't know but they have). I have even had people complain >> about not top-posting because "I can't find your reply" and thus >> almost the entire world (except for a few technical mailing lists) >> either accepts or encourages top-posting. > > I seriously doubt that there are a lot GUI or TUI MUAs available for > BSD or Linux that do that by default. Just mentioning one, Thunderbird > and then claiming every other does, too, is weak. I'm not aware of one. > Evolution doesn't, Sylpheed doesn't, Claws-Mail doesn't. IIRC KMail and > Wanderlust didn't when I used them. Probably no other does, I just > mentioned those I'm still using or I used a while back. I agree, and would add that my mail client does put my reply above the message I respond by default. Nonetheless, I learned to avoid top posting. It is easy: if you put some effort into reading and comprehending message, you can put a bit of effort into following etiquette of the mailing list you sending your message to. The logic of me having my reply above message by default is: I usually communicate person-to-person with people I do something for. And my latest reply is the most important thing I want them to read. Occasionally, people send multi issue/question mail, which makes it harder to track what was done what wasn't. And in this case I have to send "in line" responses to them. Still, mail clients I use are fully configurable in what they do by default, and I do go through whole their configuration when I add account. Too many "garbage" settings are made "on" by default these days in many mail clients and web browsers. Even coming from honorable Mozilla foundation. Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:14:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48816334F7F for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:14:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jS830jxSz3Zm9 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:14:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id c8so6693153iob.6 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:14:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vvokb+U6g/iRm+mPo4RVW6ubuA6NQebpBH6u0tJK07Q=; b=Tb0un2yQdtNWqbYEgykReu80ChZDTzkakUmEzj9auosJ29G8qRBmr6M0IIUB8JAc5o SNxHpB9i90sDs+Up85KEAQMn1s0E4V/8kBGfqErLTw4Zb5WIStyhYkcu1kLFmLsAPY6m 8/sUuY7pZ+HurlTClV1YD9CVreCrYGzUCsJENv2QGp9YKOxyntJjOH21OONIKQoqO8B+ E9X2qPlNV6qFQcfUzT1p17pIkwN1EK4f70dbcDaPWzOBWI8Weevcd8ZZcl+/SOXvNg0t /+3hH2iY7ESouQ46V/yfo/MmSMgvMxRzrS+b1EJELtQyF4CGAlD1lhJ/+XnkBxN1l0mz ELOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vvokb+U6g/iRm+mPo4RVW6ubuA6NQebpBH6u0tJK07Q=; b=SZ/W2UpSumHtLW8r4fnn0UVYjX0by6pW0WJzwZXwwtDhPcWnCZDciBj7VFwsMQe2FI JVXV5PJWKBCKZ6LKkZtspoDnCl+ImtaBL6GSxZcrAxl2LBuMwzKJGWSEKFG8OFp4tfTk iGI5xCek6ur6y/pkkiFKNl+FKbWrrO1WFapR7M1EiW/YXez5Nx+A1wPzd1/EXOOshLe0 DpUU0CxfGwkGJ8beqLoLdrZnbMsgumTsIEM/d101szi0KQzq53NEFfdfrYYh85TvWSg6 L6Br22sqX/KDthTBKfdwWZYbhWugHCY6jTYZ4Ot6gJVh4VmyzVUshT62zEmVVtSG3Jx8 1bBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531d6upkUf0Y9U2koa9AB4c1Rg28OwjNy3Wg3pJlqLLCzXs2inCg iSC93kfcPcPHZ6uzcuMU8amAskWFwrIKfDjwHyw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzHFq37LCXnNxyPDDDltvJLvtzKYQew5R6dG8xqjSdbnSAKI1s5XcpY1gX75XaTzij/wM5SVMDj5FA8+TB1H98= X-Received: by 2002:a02:958e:: with SMTP id b14mr3802207jai.126.1591888481191; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:14:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: From: Michael Schuster Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:14:28 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: freeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jS830jxSz3Zm9 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Tb0un2yQ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of michaelsprivate@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=michaelsprivate@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.07 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.025]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.04)[-1.045]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:14:44 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 17:02 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:49 AM Michael Schuster < > michaelsprivate@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 15:21 Aryeh Friedman >> wrote: >> >> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:11 AM RW via freebsd-questions < >> > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: >> > >> > > You can use gmail with a separate email client if you like. The >> > > servers support pop/imap/smtp. >> > > >> > >> > >> > Case in point I use gmail not because of its ease of use per se (even >> > though it is better then most standalone MUA's) I use it because it is >> an >> > off-site backup of years worth of correspondence that is too valuable to >> > worry about losing in a hardware failure. >> > >> >> You can configure most email clients to leave messages on the server... >> > > Why make a system with many moving parts one I can make one just as good > with one moving part? I think in some areas this would be called > complicating the crap out of an ant hill. I really think most people if > given the option (and equal functionality) would go for the fewest moving > parts (given Murphy that is). For what I need and want gmail has all the > functionality I want so why add complexity when none is needed? > If it works for you, that's fine. For others, something else may work better. I don't believe this is a "one size fits all" situation. Cheers Michael From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:17:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4747C3354E5 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:17:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jSC5587Gz3bLk for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:17:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id o5so6676473iow.8 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:17:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ASC3S7uC6WVCaOC90nMHmSsdX0IxDRBxGoMsTrl6xZc=; b=AZ7/ElxX46JnrdJmy+fqK/oLzrvEMWX8tblCGdprzWWCwktBte1yiG1fRGumFfoRU4 PPShb7Vv//shbViuZfttnm1kneLjd6UPFuI2X7GDOZWWIUkyswgSVGnqsoWLYRVAZ0lQ PAWptVhi/OacPNzGqY7ZvqMLgPKdBF5YnIhoONGErFech54v2tonOHvsOKhdOZKNTjKX qs9fnf2pQ8ynag1uTKbqnnMbjtHJSVyB+VBWV1Bpz+VIPdVIuE5ZmDdkmwaxLWbnySFM qw1xgjJT1Pomiyz8Ha+l3EUAKRQorD/ynMThEltFS5aNEfR2G3KR91HjOJ1aogYgYMzL kc9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ASC3S7uC6WVCaOC90nMHmSsdX0IxDRBxGoMsTrl6xZc=; b=O8qYxsiWLBYY1K5LftzDIRItZFHUX92Hd9HrNpkPshMMTcvgbqkFBs0xyV9+zAtkoj c8XLGUwj38AyuZC1LyNTtsvfaHJV5COWHwhss1AYaMyvNDu6MFDXsOxoeR5xnit+Xr5R tsuJN28ws5lRzrZ+HN+ohtyj9vuhPHWJf5sMQNb6XzjVPwl7MDFpGD0eLpKy2I5RW8Av ihop7Iwiw2dsuUdjK99BLVkEUAQmbxdLc8k1A9Rx7EnKFkEdSemiC4m7VfUYt4ZQbVVr smor2zMI1Jc1ob7ZuNYTWaxjkBWXq/droOy+NbUA2p2fWCVEuFcEbxghxARY54YLOAPN 7PQg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MIObybpqNA/GK5EueIAL85iCjWgCymbEm77cN8lc/WXrr+Dxu V7V4QZQD7mZ5JnrMx6R0Ncogi9yx3SpqGxSh/TjuKEO/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwHvQaKBoY+Tx42X1t++CcwsndhEcxL9bVV3/BbNJpvMWG1gSm9r/D5JmB9r/zjApL5ZneZ3OBuKu8cMLctM48= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5915:: with SMTP id n21mr9047841iob.103.1591888639935; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:17:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:17:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Michael Schuster Cc: freeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jSC5587Gz3bLk X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=AZ7/ElxX; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.04 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.018]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.02)[-1.018]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:17:24 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 11:14 AM Michael Schuster wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 17:02 Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:49 AM Michael Schuster < >> michaelsprivate@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 15:21 Aryeh Friedman >>> wrote: >>> >>> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:11 AM RW via freebsd-questions < >>> > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > > You can use gmail with a separate email client if you like. The >>> > > servers support pop/imap/smtp. >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > Case in point I use gmail not because of its ease of use per se (even >>> > though it is better then most standalone MUA's) I use it because it is >>> an >>> > off-site backup of years worth of correspondence that is too valuable >>> to >>> > worry about losing in a hardware failure. >>> > >>> >>> You can configure most email clients to leave messages on the server... >>> >> >> Why make a system with many moving parts one I can make one just as good >> with one moving part? I think in some areas this would be called >> complicating the crap out of an ant hill. I really think most people if >> given the option (and equal functionality) would go for the fewest moving >> parts (given Murphy that is). For what I need and want gmail has all the >> functionality I want so why add complexity when none is needed? >> > > If it works for you, that's fine. For others, something else may work > better. I don't believe this is a "one size fits all" situation. > So if you (again the royal you not you personally) don't believe in size fits all then why all this fuss about top posting? Shouldn't we allow people to communicate in the style/format they find most comfortable without judgement? -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:25:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E95A33622B for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:25:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic311-31.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic311-31.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jSNh4Tv2z3cdb for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:25:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: V0JDcPUVM1nwAIp7.BZ__U32IOJFGkWJrjGsaOz0FikbL728QQZ.0bA5lODxfbc Xg_QTqygRBNjb_8aH_flSFNOG8lut_MyYoOLx5_N3F6QVeXiC_MusVxtYKf8iT.l_BmZwqBdCZ1Z 6xc0jLGZ7JLff7mwq2FPYoMhaAXcrv4pdlJVr0_lT0oyI7LePd9VvxZnOAeaxjJiXBeqgh2j7HVD Gk.V5ARSVzmRd5ZqgAH.HuIuLu6wrSdik_NGsa5_TBf.0mDFyTfdqZXpQCC4V.85R4UfDczGXBg2 G0wUxe_csx3KxDRTs63DHaTO9lYLzNhQBVKqoa4HsbGGLg1dh0tCJ1y9lJ.FgmpQHRfwK9GXynLu h2Wtnu.FlHOl.R.4YpufpgZOzZfVepPCyX1b9B0KnqsO2dUAF0g4NDGk0LplV93hXhbvPuVXvWlk tKpkYATMUKu_Y1oLWnL3WOX_VLoBSijMirIId45xnBw7q4FGUlBX3bGAlobMCe2p_HSbtk_3odjl n.zKOjP_29d9Xp98OuiYQnPbdGg_r1U0zHEUNRS_FBev8NHtcps_K41gGT5g9ROCjhKmmBc8tQaF C1lqraJFvq8x.IkEuwV.P99ILeQNEzhofvRZFknWKoJqgYnkOUcUNWW20erAvyWhxfku9OLVmMaN oGu58uD7jq8K_muRiVB60syaC_cBbcXfvKa1T2h_En1vGGpRi7WNaWZ3s6FxSJzUKoOf2VqDKDwj CEHwrzed8yg2HRsxJR4kHTJyzMY8Udj9aXLEh4Nl.XVQoZ47oIOKE6zn92kuwCUPbsEzeoQf9yhm EE_9Mkno3yEuDY.T.JPWf0H.RXzcI_qZYR4wnASZ7BPgXQtfzLXdBTf9BtoGWq2eExYAWrAEHpCq GCUVK9h0_nMUpnfAfdQ9CvUuWCg3fWT6sVGYpcyqxzbGBoYqnbRIV0jq8LuPiK_sigxHdEcAg0Ld Lr5aBsd9uRW2_n4o1uaQ71gIcvzg6QQgeC6bTqlkvBSk6WNDy6oZTMT6D6LYz0l_khGuRg.1ZZwU woERgwquQu5Fy3vJkkEB9SeIZ4qjJdt2rEJElpu0qeAYx39t_llgc4eJgoHZ.Gxu4DjYBb748PwO Q8VIbH9P_gze2bAfIwgInslB6BK.KNvFQU1mNQA.3elQd6gHPyovvVCgnVgBsJWF99XWY6FR9pNo MtHbGhPJPgmAep2X508IpbsazE8T_8bKCoAuRgIJVkWd3vodFpDyND1U9IOSUhcMpx_txHZ2rsjB 0.Ad9sCvVkMTx1LpJTHMc1k.lLTTd6RjjAADKs9KdIVrJzBWNpnmGr_9WeIKhGsWUFAc.0FxgMST CxprFh6K9tSLxrAuFdqGu2KuTSVtB43AOr82XFlxGcU3aSICYEw95iC7ekQFqlvIngSnQIxQeENB u5WiMh_dPeEJxs5I- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:25:38 +0000 Received: by smtp419.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4e75a4cd672abdcb93a92672a74809db; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:25:36 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:25:37 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jSNh4Tv2z3cdb X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.38 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.176.163:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.878]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.026]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.176.163:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:25:42 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 09:57:29 -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >That's your business, and it us not advisable to push it on recipients >of your email. Make sure you are _sending_ messages in plain text, >then those who read them will have them according their own >preferences, be it larger font to please older eyes like ours, or >smaller font to fit into real estate of the window/screen the have. There's still the issue with line wrapping. Due to the small screens of mobile phones and unwillingness to change the orientation of the phones, we suffer from the dispute of wrapping lines at around 70 or 80 chars vs endless lines. Another issue is caused by non-fixed-width fonts. Too funny that some people tend to use endless lines for plain text and wrapping for code. In the end FLOSS mailing lists are for technical requests, so subscribers should get used to what is appropriate for this kind of conversation and they should use the appropriate tools and settings to participate. Experienced users can only help, if they have time to do so, which means the mails should be easy to read for those providing help, since they are helping on a voluntary basis, they aren't paid support. Btw. https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2020-June/msg00054.html and btw. the "Disclaimer" I posted is nice, but not from me, I just don't have the link at hand. -- Disclaimer: By sending an email to ANY of my addresses you are agreeing that: 1. I am by definition, "the intended recipient". 2. All information in the email is mine to do with as I see fit and make such financial profit, political mileage, or good joke as it lends itself to. In particular, I may quote it where I please. 3. I may take the contents as representing the views of your company if I so wish. 4. This overrides any disclaimer or statement of confidentiality that may be included or implied in your message. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:26:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F06233624B for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:26:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x130.google.com (mail-il1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jSPD2gbTz3cbs for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:26:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from michaelsprivate@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x130.google.com with SMTP id p5so5796887ile.6 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:26:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t2kXSEVBPZqdd3S8ACQwyReIad5LocGm+PjzPcyE9/g=; b=tC/f6CUpBgTQmftJx4sgnMTL/jB/29ECQD+qrC4kqfva6Cj7nQyT6Z4GGTWlhXgOEa H3vE2RWya3bKTEwMidBnLYAf7ZekbwVAlOercbjKG1x0OkLnw/eu2slrM66bG0ijh1H+ TuonHnmThQp6lVCI65zyGV8Af87hzmX0e8Ghb67LYVjvWQmVoOtRy9hrWZhKYMQLvM9F b2fq17Hl1ZVsthAaenx/rYI0Obr/hjv5yz1z/Yi1MYAJkgMU6oA7ReO/XuOcv/dgxXk6 xuXnoG1ulitRU/+bnsEoBW9Yz9IysUm5Yx1DmI4nKuFWeFHDZAdDdxobvKMJh5FTp4/r GL9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t2kXSEVBPZqdd3S8ACQwyReIad5LocGm+PjzPcyE9/g=; b=t7b+npZQiRJAlagBH8L44NshL3Rbadr6v/bywKfVZWWJoqZWzH6Hm4XqsqonNm227I se4lqds9waClJBmE9DRDpl9wiV2l4woe4iQD7DuVdU80iqxPPGbHlLkVJMOOPowDaVPR llTTELK2DzGMNVwrwQS8RpPR7D/TavVEjaDIE/V8UiJM6JHCL499PFO6GK4Xz1DbUn6Q W95V4XyqWagbaKI4KBDwOhimhWiUj/RDwSwvSQVxaL4KA5kI+W7I6sWYMb9GJiiamqEG QYevV5EBaOIbQMW7Q6b4OPq+cfhhUyu3dsr9i9886eJHY/zKXWb8lqdDlmB7UNwXKkT7 bioQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532R9BF0NhErOBu2pv2G4qtx+Ww0ZADzJNTBJsTFJp4cdauMEa2G I88EoKenczhw4pD3oIcZ/p0eXpAEHUdJtVbE4+pz/g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxJ+xpG1aYUjmcRwlGCPmB3uFgLc2zwNnSuDJFSx3cFpI9vmo6rG4U2Ch8Ca2XdjrwtMWJXl5ilD0H2py4OHOM= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d112:: with SMTP id a18mr8335498ilb.3.1591889167384; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:26:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: From: Michael Schuster Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:25:54 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: freeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jSPD2gbTz3cbs X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=tC/f6CUp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of michaelsprivate@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::130 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=michaelsprivate@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.04 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.025]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::130:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.02)[-1.021]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:26:09 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 17:17 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 11:14 AM Michael Schuster < > michaelsprivate@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 17:02 Aryeh Friedman >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:49 AM Michael Schuster < >>> michaelsprivate@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 15:21 Aryeh Friedman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 9:11 AM RW via freebsd-questions < >>>> > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > You can use gmail with a separate email client if you like. The >>>> > > servers support pop/imap/smtp. >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Case in point I use gmail not because of its ease of use per se (even >>>> > though it is better then most standalone MUA's) I use it because it >>>> is an >>>> > off-site backup of years worth of correspondence that is too valuable >>>> to >>>> > worry about losing in a hardware failure. >>>> > >>>> >>>> You can configure most email clients to leave messages on the server... >>>> >>> >>> Why make a system with many moving parts one I can make one just as good >>> with one moving part? I think in some areas this would be called >>> complicating the crap out of an ant hill. I really think most people if >>> given the option (and equal functionality) would go for the fewest moving >>> parts (given Murphy that is). For what I need and want gmail has all the >>> functionality I want so why add complexity when none is needed? >>> >> >> If it works for you, that's fine. For others, something else may work >> better. I don't believe this is a "one size fits all" situation. >> > > So if you (again the royal you not you personally) don't believe in size > fits all then why all this fuss about top posting? Shouldn't we allow > people to communicate in the style/format they find most comfortable > without judgement? > Don't turn around my words :-) I was responding to the email client issue, not to the "top or bottom posting" issue. Cheers Michael From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:31:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB2A3365B4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jSWH44rkz3d96 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:31:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: 6t6oKwQVM1m2GCNSNPCgpvVY0zI6CL6_m1dKaTxbu7oOyDyudJK0tpI_YUsmaK. 3MuawzR0hjNh5BiIIhNd8KxkdvOPiqMdbnKi1XkgRnVXEGewXR2yKPmcBczoSHDMcVivCNmSG2aw uLToH3J7cYxs38P1LhOvo0JDBFL74lQFJjEaRX1jczOrNY.txPP6fpdDbJLMpJiE0kUbt7vCymyf pVkhs2XLQpkH0ded4VZJDm4t9dQMhB.Ga4e_KGrFZcfi0CYPKlyYa669Oq8uyIfYQjkWBHEKpQzH CEt6h1DDlrecgi8z_pe.N1YFOZ2b._D1qx4UjktGYV1WcipO61688Tr56pxWw.cBhPpqqKV7Ojr8 WZZQxqhdF1uZc0DIHOXbjnAW1K8oVQkpwd0DzSmvJ6UH8KjDeWzEyeFZ_n2DpnOvf0ir02xtvK.a DxHIEc.QubkRIs8etiJa4Z5bzg22aLnex2KlmvYg8oxL2NJ3K1IKi3cqmWw1DKuzD7oGrzduFtJ7 1Ee2CXvunIJqKQMh6DFVJAPJjoUoAEpCV5F6skNM9dBxKLAqQxyOtEqB4t9gYV2xO9Imu5EWYMDy XsmysvpEuCasCTDc8Szs9RXeznC2CjoFABKfeRtMKSEfxxb8atBnYTTFqahDVn3w.uUPTJMSLQki I2q5CezkuWBMsth4UpsxFdrvORX4dfs.5O5PofDmhi5b2tlhVdP9qsjcHHFWRbutQYT870oB68t2 uI4nJdk5V2FkTtl7nVw4AyfvkoawN6Mgl1Fs1.UHlc3S9hfn40D86pN64YzWHpdnj6jkU5H4LuZj bUJ9aRLSnMuUA_7L8SvRNTaSLRD6GPDOkZfTvFLSX1MN7aPEZ8XmPiaFnaV0Bnl6GgfkqPX7wsSP xGb1keVhKVAFZJp4EBGl7u4jLb8LfCMA1TjlvKcsBnRKpESDOnSjOU2IFw1WCq46cjC3nEWXboyb FyXMOTemezEjmiO6E47jnH9clOyajTtVHPQKIY0quM0Op8jggArhBTOUoV80DCA0fDflkSNl_jdS 7WkC8xgrJalF4lNFDvmVHfqZq1Up2bqSNYNDfAsHy4fhqjeSqghWCUFuxPRFmZJlZjYZIl1B6eeB 0_Q22CiY3BQjEBKZ1J9jJ0.kq4EyoJe69NI_W_7FHuVjB1aRsksOpGA3LWT5ufgqJ2pYjQSxUea1 K0jG4rvzIYpX8ajMsheYsfXXZFBmvC7yU6B_g3D0UqeRMHG.RysX.qEQUTR68kuhB7Hp4u4eg9PF Lz7JRb4Nf7p5wNYYfrHaSR0yb8bix2h_0lQhIGrZzgkZbr2X0YJTvIJ3xhbxU6TAR3wnaVxhXEn6 E1nJtlDPjI.y_f1LY1vKSw82uHATR1OqKIlxxoTPnFbv84S.NniX4c7b73sx2v828qjMOYaTV6WM s5LjuO3PgsOf5wg4- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:31:21 +0000 Received: by smtp412.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 88822955e253209e164d624024e802b9; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:31:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:31:20 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611173120.2342edb0@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jSWH44rkz3d96 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.32 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[87.248.110.83:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.81)[-0.813]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.021]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[87.248.110.83:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:31:24 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:25:37 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >Too funny that some people tend to use endless lines for plain >text and wrapping for code. This should read: ...some people tend to use endless lines for the plain text conversation, but they are wrapping posted (plain text) code, log files, error messages of a compiler etc., so they make it nearly unreadable for humans. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:31:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F643366AB for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:31:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jSWm6nFnz3dPd for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:31:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id t9so6719201ioj.13 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:31:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Xf3XkxhXp+j2q5cJVqA9oEJ62yQPP0AOAMYivhD+leg=; b=KcUMMTfOmg/h7h4kXgU+npiT2gxG31STx9EabD5KPsPXsB0w8Cw1i5SDBFJfPOaBUh 69nsJPlGrjAlKZ33r7yeC39aweaUfSKZwtnnKNNxoeHvuVY0pBZ9vWiAfcvtdM8/ZHqY XBv8cSWrsyLHVvF56rSyxPPGOyMvDUezz/n6MPwqcm1MLwBp8kihJSg8zaCk4xeVd6AJ gJtTT7yvHdof8cmDUj9YJHgW2DYsGpRYbUykfRDf+dI24nV3AJdnhjQJyW9pBSvcZ6lq LaSYYJqPev38PTSKHaKTsSDtyG/1D/jKInwZa43dWnBXYgRKazzYTHVt07y5w3q//2S4 f8HA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Xf3XkxhXp+j2q5cJVqA9oEJ62yQPP0AOAMYivhD+leg=; b=JCCezz6pKq5h0HT1An1i8G6keaCELTKfqw04Za3Z97654z9oTkAgXC6uqePtSuELsi JE5mS+rGxJGeD86kUuiwHPmka6odvbxOUo3uOKMukiFP4IxT4OA+y5HfR/CtkhUrN9EB sbkeB6+qkxTDRSDbkxx9KLM3JvX6/Q1sabwy7IV2UZvUryr7FjLZ209BmtACVbV+jL0Q eIoM0fnu7VKszViGvL0x8CoxNMpkzRh1IkSXby+UIVotrXk7PbV1IV19SX9NHR0FKxpd +BY8Nry1bT1IgNnGkgQxdrPsR0Yj2Q4A+EsZ54ZryNvGjX9jJ/PzidyRk3SjHwH105Tx igZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Kt2xHwSXP7pIb4YN/wjrvTomMITSNbxxsDkXx2AGY3Y9hgh6f IN6tbOqpQWMIWFcyygkVOmb96opB9IwwSDCSirc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzQlZzwdOZrwr5nFGVmraNHDLdk3whbKnrvp9UgMuUJCuOfibbU4p37Ar988hDtjcBIu2CFc7N/1tO8tYFEEmE= X-Received: by 2002:a02:6a26:: with SMTP id l38mr3738215jac.60.1591889508000; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:31:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 11:31:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Michael Schuster Cc: freeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jSWm6nFnz3dPd X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=KcUMMTfO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.07 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.018]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.05)[-1.051]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:31:49 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 11:26 AM Michael Schuster wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 17:17 Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 11:14 AM Michael Schuster < >> michaelsprivate@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> So if you (again the royal you not you personally) don't believe in size >> fits all then why all this fuss about top posting? Shouldn't we allow >> people to communicate in the style/format they find most comfortable >> without judgement? >> > > Don't turn around my words :-) I was responding to the email client issue, > not to the "top or bottom posting" issue. > Please return the favor then and don't turn mine around. I clearly said the comment was not directed at you personally (I don't even know what your stance on top posting is!) it was directed at the overall thread. I only said it here because you summarize the entire point I have been attempting to make about top posting when you said "one size does not fit all" (in reference to something other then top posting) so it was a good place to summarize my main point. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 15:51:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2D3337825 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:51:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic309-24.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic309-24.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jSyP3YbGz3gQT for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:51:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: FLR5LTMVM1mjTem4mzL4vAqGGifY7ADl6SwQv0LFHXEJz4VarZbrAXDlWtdCfx8 qd9J490VUorFG7LMwbu37.ZMlzaxGBqTm3o0aZnSbuuxHC.VW.o2SGX9Vrl1PSLV6jV__A3N5z1z iwieQkLJo0zkbMO7X1Yt2f9T4msxEdweAgYhzoa2pemntzOh2czyZRuCuAoz1bKKf2OjxxHsL6bi 7Xv.AdyexzndTDU3bQIw4WQ200AHOQK0op.cqNpIjimgxWxi7xzfGqgL71bnRIaYO5la2vU.mfbX _ZRTr5hjCjSzGUQ_Wg4XLeYxO_jq_D8xauLpB7gkdwtzszSv8gF.ClkvunxDhJzQ7ciDd_gjU_x. _ZU_d8RUXdKqPDTbLUfsgiKAAjydRfDvYHbVjgFJy.KRURJzp8rhtKfM3LMJfPv.FtSZ8u6Y30k. fSSkXT6KLKfuYpRWKPwISVH1NjxNlor_3.IgcNY4DaUKD8PO1Sfx2ZheFA5LmfiE0D3rWV9IQIYH pJeKgN6ZBBx9iZ9XhZ.F7VSsekGs3fTWYgHogsY6MbYhnyWYBY1UVibFaARpkpsJh.4chZu1FskL j0t0ndirp6NxcDyJF9183TX5BKl_N79bJjyMEzY3n8DC2njBxOQWofcHz6QBjM..AcKiEJKKfz0. G1a6oa3hIHpyMUeMDN4uHhx.0iRi3ARxh2Q4lMj.FdTajJtdGnlXbF5jXniev5xotpLgmzrBFt4n MJjy02mixZvmgcKV.jfacBMZk6W4pkcDYG5as0IjB4WfFlCmQ3MFRe34saocenz0TgeLXxbRT.hC SSeZkiRKb4W6lvcn_Xgpp53YCiorDaHCAr5XzlSY6JE6kwNbL.9lsyK8Y8P3AydHmmEJabBc1dLr 44CJ.3Kd6N9.OcCCEq0G6c9I_3.bzZXxOuGhyV9WUJ7Bpe_7dbaEFNf.nyZ.10OZ0QD0P210sLMV 9BwSqveBK9hsOcxMiV8z1rNy9OkwRdg0oQsQmnRxbxtDs4rzLFa7cCHm1zIZZ2YAnDYgPGsXV87N ck5fU0Qvhw0tKxQbnQ1cLEFURzAg_nAuOShtiHbv.tDXSgHuV.jKX3I64ShGLgC_OknYGteChFQA chzD3oE1eK9JnCUKnSy2w_QxsimIIaHu7ewQ0Wzysm1IQnP6Z39SEm11zqKjvukt8pFFzB.xftro DYpdH3R8KWTKTP7T1TrpVCLRKrucp67SxOdVmn0b6tIPphY9sYkU0XNk_MHZUEcaVA.yF8UF7taY NL1AWgnRhlVlJaxmXKeRAHX_0wRaNztplosKPFD_H30XFcStdpokDVJV.Yky2.AdOmMBihGFgf_q NgPmmHgAGkYb8VwwNGIsbKePWpDyS4qSWNQfOyz7u4pT4l1jzYN1p2vD3BpwhFUuOn6_QyPA4tan 10NaGCGSV.QY- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:51:23 +0000 Received: by smtp419.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f97ea9c84b97c992b22f59ac12c52a77; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:51:21 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:51:22 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611175122.0e09b89e@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200610163245.00000445@seibercom.net> <2ec5927b-26c6-e691-0081-ca72d2c84179@boxsci.com> <20200611141038.0a068ec2@gumby.homeunix.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jSyP3YbGz3gQT X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.47 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.179.82:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.962]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.021]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.179.82:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 15:51:26 -0000 My personal r=C3=A9sum=C3=A9 is, that people should use what ever they pref= er to use, unless they expect help from a mailing list. If somebody wants help, it's useful to help other to provide help. If the conversation is unfavourably formatted and/or if code, logs etc. are unfavourably formatted, it becomes harder and more time consuming to provide help. The easier it is to understand a request and the follow-ups regarding an issue, the more likely it is, that a subscriber gets _useful_ help to solve an issue. Keep in mind that support of proprietary operating systems usually answers with pre-formulated messages, such as a link to the FAQ, to restart the computer, to remove and reinstall an app, IOW with measures that are most of the times completely useless, that don't provide any help at all. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 16:18:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C17D338C13 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:18:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic310-11.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic310-11.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jTYH3tFmz40yk for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:18:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: 7yrrr7sVM1nTUeL7Gh6HD3vAde1trXOv9qUt8xLHJxJOwCoCSokpQt6rVaRrWzi bOb9k46VpaBTCa8f7Eo3BqE5Zm69BighANuVxv_FwMMkhxTmREwtGIsgLLiA_4OMvPdgBMc2EkeE zYAlbPQoIt33FXsqvDHkYilOE0jImkRQDH.SoYlRhMGh1DMgT.QsSpTc4w9RgUJsZl8xvYdZfjWX nPVWM_WQ8QEivs0DvcVGuTVX5TtRJ7A_gzCiYg76U.wSMndSlMp.KrukrmBWyZJLhsX3GhacTe9L Wis5g0JmolAEOQVEbWMP8wEUJ8GI4o_VH685uwEOdvXBcF39JIi5oAq1vIH8KS8u2ly1ch9tFJ.k OCehl3MhkoAP4HB2A24cpX8hhC3HmQiSOnTuEaHI3iiqkawgfQpsyItJIMpdphLAJq57HH5Bejqp t4uAlIECEABcj12fihXKuF_15Leff64YTYKGDpDSVHYgedy_ZLWILZCPOCLmjRk7t9EDUs1uIZR. LkqFoUl9aohRNMzJhXGoirERtxNDIIX_6G_bmWgk9Y5AV0tQZ_TiL9lPr.yLcxNvEasVEMQgEMhp 5whd3CY2byFPg7DCX62rzFGuZXSiUGSfeF0fW.A6g0Ogd3OExyPKrUKwbQ.X6Cn9nk0byXo3lmQW 0j2fBJOKFVxWsZF6v0XBQVWFXkVOPinW8w22jfQs_GBQxQhcBABH2arDB8YL4x0EhMty0y5pQfYh sJI2fHSuhUuXSYKIoxs4h9RuMc_raSQGnEgey8IWFvYvm9HBl1d_iFS8J._tukYcYCeBfoj7RcDY diKtsh_lCQgXBK9x8df_8M_8lkDfGTxLo.sVLU9oblMAKvYaygY_srE9uiYSjO5DjhxkT5fKl7vB FjBewl2sd1EF9GyPfDQx1TnaxQxJ2ZFwWn4pS52i86.x8ZR.HuUciIcEpWC3eChiEy7uR76tkjWg J_HKUJ80uN9WMkcblmNLO8tbPNax8gcT5xB2gp4jR3PoR4kvCF2NsjoCviyflM9LMDF9o9YAtbqm 1_ZZcTjSJFns7gYcQh2zdAHDqSNrX3YINfWLVAa7zQAp1Nx5nDzN.G69H.3IdQNBLyeAonZI8EyI 9ALu4S57ko6QF1wrTAjVdk_.tWI5JHTD2ydqdYNE6oJA87azgj7YG6pUm99kQyU6SkiYFFKfY1GQ OAKY5oHsVzvnjoNAQyLb_50_GLEjip6QV_AmTEzm3qI8P_E_bsC2ougqSv.VJoTcgeNHBDF6PyPR 4fPlwCjX81PH8kXH6WnRHEZasj25yHgv4v4krR_sBuaq08ykvjYddaGk8XWCT648eUqKfVe8LVmq z7pyDUZHFJqTJue_w.1MUw6h1Q10rKkSizla8A5imV44OUhA.LGH466z4lOaI_zrfrKJGzxnks9g xz4WiF9PZC7AV3ddr5l6Fr.g1vIqn7npeamm16jbTQbehNta31NUsA1o- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:18:08 +0000 Received: by smtp413.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 170aede10da1d77ed3fc385bffc181f9; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:18:06 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:18:08 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: "Michael A. Yetto" , Valeri Galtsev Subject: I don't want to adorn myself with borrowed plumes - Was: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611181808.2ec69b86@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: <20200611181808.2ec69b86.ref@archlinux> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jTYH3tFmz40yk X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.90 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.177.32:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.177.32:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.39)[-1.392]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.025]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com,kicp.uchicago.edu]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:18:12 -0000 The disclaimer gem is from Michael A. Yetto. https://lists.claws-mail.org/pipermail/users/2020-April/025811.html ------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Michael A. Yetto To: users@lists.claws-mail.org Subject: Re: [Users] Mail header not displayed. Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:17:12 -0400 Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-kubuntu-linux-gnu) On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 18:21:24 +0200 Ralf Mardorf via Users writes, and having writ moves on: > People finishing such emails with a "sent from my"-signature or a "if > you receive this e-mail in error, please" disclaimer, make it on my > extended suicide list ;). =20 I have this response that you may feel free to use. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D8<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Disclaimer: By sending an email to ANY of my addresses you are agreeing that: 1. I am by definition, "the intended recipient". 2. All information in the email is mine to do with as I see fit and make such financial profit, political mileage, or good joke as it lends itself to. In particular, I may quote it where I please. 3. I may take the contents as representing the views of your company if I so wish. 4. This overrides any disclaimer or statement of confidentiality that may be included or implied in=20 your message. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D>8=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 Mike --=20 "Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it.=E2=80=9D - Rene Descartes _______________________________________________ Users mailing list Users@lists.claws-mail.org https://lists.claws-mail.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 17:30:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D291933AF27 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:30:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jW8F6mlGz46TX for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:30:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id j32so5133272qte.10 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:30:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=rGNGjvnN3gKiojxbalo8WoioV/eOHdmPZnYzw1lQzRc=; b=SA+T3i92fKtYv7dncIOnlCIIGSRhvbVnIIJuEmzpwgOPrNuxf0RNWO4wM1qNt9vslZ irfE8xl/KRDQjcbfwc/ZfNnqWJ5J5/cqXy3n3NXq6HBkoR0AnAESBfzpFGAMVPKCA0tG GJ6r727K2x0Fw7yE7yK1lWEPG3mDlGQ/HIrTE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=rGNGjvnN3gKiojxbalo8WoioV/eOHdmPZnYzw1lQzRc=; b=RS940i0v/KcpaildC7pj18PjYM07SPAz63IvudtJB8L1z74agqP54jl46lH9l7Wg0S 7QE5BLGoG4Y71RcPpfsNaJo8NtXa07fsVg+ZdGE+1VbSfKs5b8I0cmbql8fO39uEhZdU dw65jxeWkHxDCQzjXNxHByZvMA/aZ0FlGF0yWucG4WKRYlct35K4OOxM8nRanNRfhYr/ I9aHoktmGB4eT3F5uCtk8lixT77/qZ8vQu8r72BJkLJpG6lIQ4OpsVtLOXIYkK32m/WA +UoXIQTXul4RWo0ivFC04ALp9fNp9P86Z28mlprTewRebZf/dZyT3bYi0N+0maRNCyIz rCjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531faxaBxfsdAPx0qsxaEZ00waQXct0+OtixHW31d7zdjLxgmQ7T hi769U7r+CL1AYp3eRR0vKXxxjLS11c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzbi8yf5iercrSTX3if0L11beMNbWlrvF0/P1+bblqPt86My9wz/S8pCsGEttszP1EBMKghzA== X-Received: by 2002:aed:2ca5:: with SMTP id g34mr9960588qtd.13.1591896602629; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d78sm2611714qkg.106.2020.06.11.10.30.00 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49jW872qmHzTjl for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:29:51 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/j0gwMhctac/6GYi15Z6ir2S"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jW8F6mlGz46TX X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=SA+T3i92; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.87 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.225.250:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.889]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.36)[0.357]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:30:06 -0000 --Sig_/j0gwMhctac/6GYi15Z6ir2S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:46 +0200, Polytropon commented: [[Extraneous contend truncated]] >> Claws-Mail allows a user to create custom folders with predefined >> "To:". "CC:" and "Reply-To:" fields, among others. That totally >> eliminates all the guess work, assuming the end-user bothered to >> properly configure it. =20 > >Nobody configures MUAs these days. In a web-driven world, >users tend to keep using the defaults of the provider. >The same applies to application MUAs where the defaults >aren't checked and adjusted to match real use cases. Well then, Poly, I must be Mr. Nobody, because I always at least look at, and usually actually do modify default configurations to suit my particular work habits. To bring this whole conversation to a quick end, whenever I send a document to someone that absolutely, positively has to look exactly how I created it, I use PDF. It eliminates all the problems that you and others have been describing. Email, at least in my estimation, was never intended to be used a a means of conveying high level, complex mathematical formulas, etcetera. Bart |^^^^^^^^| Raven | | | | | | | _ _, .---------------. | (.).) | | | .-^--_ | EAT MY SHORTS ! | \ ' _____) | | | \ (__ /_-----------------' / -__/ / \ / / . | / / / | / \ / ' / \ / / / . / / / X / / / / |--| |____ \/\_/ |--| ----. / |\ \----' / /| | \ \ `_/_|_. `- --=20 Jerry --Sig_/j0gwMhctac/6GYi15Z6ir2S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7iag8ACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSXiAgAk+jxVsfnEBf1Tm4fTWt5ZAGHFO9lPV+5qOKxz8pyws9Dm9HqHB4fo78E wv1c8AZcemFbMUgSScw4mlcz2foFE3lWxrZowoCgKxk7YPA3xLwhcr4iCTGUwrKH yKCNkIB03KBZj+pXwRi/8xOA9Wpsa1cmuYleD0tXy+rvT/w8eHSy41e2KuzfKy0P X/hhhqOn9UBwJnPE7MK9O0YMwwBYu87Pkduaz1zjKLx4YjIZnmJ2VmB569fndvbK nVvIwkvTI9tGO5U3lvK3/w6Q8o+ndkCgGOgWCOjn/CwI5RrfM4e8EZhYVeUPeJaz Py1LkTFpuHJ/puwz+NiEReKchFTlqg== =wKBj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/j0gwMhctac/6GYi15Z6ir2S-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 17:42:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B9633B479 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:42:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic307-54.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic307-54.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jWPz6sS7z47TS for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:41:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: 9PPe9LoVM1ki_eJF7PH30l5g5Y6_jXzNJzcESIy5TjPRn9m.lq8X6Q.zLUPRhEy _JFX0SH5htH4JnTlPq2JrORPP9QFxwDXsxDHdfMzN7dBMNzsuhoYZRJU.YLPo5xeKY5uJpPo0VkF 6UCgAG7KHYoWtk3Vu1VkthatVSNM6u075n1mTcMv8N1OKjDJcwNUmxD70JfFNZfiCsxWOW_8iAJJ DblctAC85W6tYgiUGpnaKGszHiWcqw1wYiU54hDl7j5CCrWp1LHL0jzb5c2Hb1jCwwf_QMR_FEa8 yGVICSk1fRuNiGBUKrYgcKkeXure9YjFcJe4YbY8MtJtKuAjTriYDstJSLtHz9hKwJaZIGUmzmQA 3jMign4EQDc8OWyq6TaAJululdG5eBZ0eBa2DtBMAo_59MNAMSjokygIm.nTgYVwxz0qb_IODGVp f2iEvwMlXK7VRCDdIoI8HJtHe7sjqpKmA1rmBWuUFeJA1ZS1aYg9ggyfaibVopxxWFJix55dAE5F Z_0eC3RfAH._i91mdk5MoFdqCX9Q9miANAQrziLBBbfE99cDQGoC40Ul9JiofMJM1wF8zkBiP2_M vq8a3ebpxr3.wg1es.boIuTr63IJA3g6Dvk9awoMlILPsrB4oM.TfYS68kT2goIH1CzfYyl0sdcX j1jCw3FRMWLsfNWvdNHrJP083mINZ9.FpOdH2k_fjDZ6CmlFmLEfVzfBCdwTTNlOG3.Nflt9r2DQ dn9BWs51cbsHx4w_K0h9w0HsfwfAkmVd7Ti.mms_X6UUWkkI4qTwdwx2DcBSSSx8AzMrXJXH1NGI 2cjgTn7lGtyHVjvPS1onudsf0vryeUHLJaPsRP9.9ZZuI0b01.oL_T5lG0icuJiyzqldOzILOVr6 28RNCKpSJJi2bRcOTFz98p8aWlTC_6pw2Z82dezB.kVISa5Eoqe0AHIAsFTpxMlbpUdkngQemrBe gVImO4M0mgcWMJaDP3y2k.D6hebEd0ViE9Yxc1bd655ATxhNUAKX.uQepp9XsyzkZNA9T65AzWUg _jkhzkCGAi0pinoMwWqlaed58hsTEg8lyTNF4fPvbR.Dunxi9tRYp4zR4mb0l7yRD2u00FNwFi6v 0C.e56S6oiY45cytwzhr81rBAohBYYE7pVEp9MHYLUUU_ghp.8cbbDHkXpssN1diVZTFRaLO.jMZ vDCp18Hc7NtUpa2_UKgDq7ArMZ5Qa1F4S1dGP9olwgZ6kmx_9kGLsA.DON9jHnUeV1XtZydqpdIn B7Ul4wCdyo7OgDnL6UFHADmzqArXSLodUv2HwRH8VMh3WRu80Bh7kI4DhZt4RFMnPuIOeF0bY3NL J0fxY2CU9OtsGbVQTDaRR7fSu0AuRIEzFk8cI2Vy_vCHXS0PZOo2pUq.pwVdl_3A4fOgUvk1quK9 OTzTof_X.wSw6yg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:41:58 +0000 Received: by smtp412.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9cd94f25c7964397d2349b4b45e8040e; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:41:54 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 19:41:55 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611194155.7021211b@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jWPz6sS7z47TS X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:42:00 -0000 Jerry, we can not do a mailing list conversation using PDF, let alone that even PDF has got its pitfalls, too. >Bart |^^^^^^^^| >Raven | | > | | > | | > | _ _, .---------------. > | (.).) | | > | .-^--_ | EAT MY SHORTS ! | > \ ' _____) | | > | \ (__ /_-----------------' > / -__/ > / \ > / / . | > / / / | > / \ / ' > / \ / / > / . / > / / X / >/ / / |--| |____ >\/\_/ |--| ----. > / |\ \----' > / /| | \ \ > `_/_|_. `- Bart, yes. Raven, yes. But with a snoot of Homer. The snoot is neither Bart, no a Raven. "Pull a Homer -- to succeed despite idiocy." - The Simpsons Regards, Ralf From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 17:42:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D92BA33B922 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:42:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jWR73yrSz47q9 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:42:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id q8so7272301iow.7 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:42:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GhHbg1b9Rik34YO+bRxARFJm426AEeKHagNzBuTMztY=; b=U7t8OW0SS0RbBwkCr66U5WtFTrJsQI1tCZ27K5IQVZ8MOAIzxO6O04RrXFin+Gtq0G i82aSr8A/u/O9ZkOgykV1vgGCuwS4tKmdxoH6Vl4CYuWbldO0eM1hK5SS1hj6rUlKcuL z/Oht4wsY/h47I6zJM9nBqw8xuDF5Y2sxRqC9Ud2nyySl0AN3QQL4RAncwBFEPUYzVRb jOgntiKWmyTY9L/voCSpHRbxZin17uSweVyIIBBYVhaR5tBhShS15soUfIGAI2Uf+FEP 8CrEm5+LUbh2wSBKGbARgMZi8SZb0mN3gGKqyu9nkNYZ1BP6mf/bsYJsnhWSZPhlJ26q q8XA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=GhHbg1b9Rik34YO+bRxARFJm426AEeKHagNzBuTMztY=; b=pKwPBnR3DCqVehRkbQ+f4cWIU9Jw/bVDLaSuE1Zj5+p1wGnItjUHjl2sZrYXFj7O7B l3Vm0mKzeJla3/E589KHooVyk+Q9ayUo66wNs218zkt48l3IIathmFVtAZ5AQtL1jnl9 MVIQQ+7/pNHmzIde//RNWmppzxbTooNia1rkpMX6YCJchDHnL/83Rf35I2QVF8XXNPmS 71xTmKVEHa5GAaC86ewEnEEKbtyHlppAYWB8yq5JvNaU/nkqqcdU61PUNT2jdCqHkTvE eotQr8ubJjvHzJhc7Q8XErGGpcIE5HGfmW1SuyH0XnlYTVRgPYIMtdDnJcl9boE7oT0t Tieg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5323ERpkhY5U3rLiSLt/XLaCbojRpCLjxwPllMsHEI6PbDv7V1hJ TE1C0qtLGWB0ot5JWL0pxk5Jp508u7x8sRq0kWAfl3+F X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfsAj0y7SgImYZ5wcpMJenqj4QLDQwcWbjMgu9EprzziVdLko6yYDke9rax7rQ3BYEbus8D/fr1LwnH9SbV84= X-Received: by 2002:a02:b704:: with SMTP id g4mr4348146jam.138.1591897378024; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 10:42:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:42:46 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jWR73yrSz47q9 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:42:59 -0000 On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 1:30 PM Jerry wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:46 +0200, Polytropon commented: > > To bring this whole conversation to a quick end, whenever I send a > document to someone that absolutely, positively has to look exactly how > I created it, I use PDF. It eliminates all the problems that you and > others have been describing. Email, at least in my estimation, was never > intended to be used a a means of conveying high level, complex > mathematical formulas, etcetera. Catch-22 most mailing lists will strip PDF attachments (or just outright bounce the mail) From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 17:56:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831EE33BFEF for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darcy@druid.net) Received: from mail.vex.net (mail.vex.net [98.158.139.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jWkT4F7Tz49F1 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:56:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darcy@druid.net) Received: from dilbert.druid.net (unknown [216.105.80.206]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: darcy) by mail.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0979392042 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:56:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> From: D'Arcy Cain Autocrypt: addr=darcy@druid.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXno+ARYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAR2o17zm/M442SONWLjdQ/8Jpro8TbnUm/m1r4MHhygS0 HUQnQXJjeSBDYWluIDxkYXJjeUBkcnVpZC5uZXQ+iJYEExYIAD4WIQQZ0YBgv7psnnP4U/Hh AAd6d7lwwgUCXno+AQIbAwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDhAAd6 d7lwwvvTAQCfxQvyB5M06arZ2cL4LDj0wVxG9ay0PTR+qrQQ9DhevAD+I7W9XlbX6qL3gfDe A0wmuPKWrdSRWEcagXI1sGSC3Ay4OAReej4BEgorBgEEAZdVAQUBAQdAbPzu0iryH2ph9hjN L+Cu1Wo85QbDLV174RHCnjmD5WMDAQgHiH4EGBYIACYWIQQZ0YBgv7psnnP4U/HhAAd6d7lw wgUCXno+AQIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRDhAAd6d7lwwhb/AQD/8Vd7zTK1s3g4bFCApa3W4zSqUa3/ 9trMr0wfaEOngAEA8iWgHnExoVEdLo9542+dJ8K0L7ntWdfIZLgCXK/2OQ8= Message-ID: <1d8fdbef-4f47-cc78-08d8-81bcfcf4683f@druid.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:56:09 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IGRqantykxFfqCj5AE3lkd1xkiitKauOv" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jWkT4F7Tz49F1 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of darcy@druid.net has no SPF policy when checking 98.158.139.68) smtp.mailfrom=darcy@druid.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.48 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/mixed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.46)[0.459]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[druid.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.04)[-0.040]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.20)[0.199]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19842, ipnet:98.158.139.0/24, country:CA]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:56:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --IGRqantykxFfqCj5AE3lkd1xkiitKauOv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nzVmn5ATOSQFT2O672QvnKyNcO51DztLI" --nzVmn5ATOSQFT2O672QvnKyNcO51DztLI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-06-11 13:42, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 1:30 PM Jerry wrote: > Catch-22 most mailing lists will strip PDF attachments (or just outrigh= t > bounce the mail) I would challenge the use of "most". Certainly some do. I also think that more should. --=20 D'Arcy J.M. Cain | Democracy is three wolves http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on +1 416 788 2246 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner. IM: darcy@VybeNetworks.com, VoIP: sip:darcy@druid.net --nzVmn5ATOSQFT2O672QvnKyNcO51DztLI-- --IGRqantykxFfqCj5AE3lkd1xkiitKauOv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQZ0YBgv7psnnP4U/HhAAd6d7lwwgUCXuJwOQAKCRDhAAd6d7lw wgp8AQCz6AOiyhSVEWRoSUHZROhIv77ksvlEVcBWSmiKHXhK5gEA6j50HNPUAYxG 3kx5ZVCRZlm9SFQTclqcGaTwi10wNQM= =e+H7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IGRqantykxFfqCj5AE3lkd1xkiitKauOv-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 17:57:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFDD233C1ED for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:57:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jWmB2QZFz49Nd for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:57:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.162]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MMFdY-1jSKa61dmI-00JKXr for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 19:57:44 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 19:57:44 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200611195744.5d4f9450.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:rSeQ7gqqmb3KwMqmGDyeQNXhj2wg1INRCALcAAlEt37/8BVIIi8 F1PCE9buoxlaTLNAulDP5zsZ0CKC7YefvkMpWJ0sQzFD9XaU9IEZvngn4T09PIJgrlOh1rt YomVNndPo3sVulNjG5W4BVMdlHMPuObcWQzqOx/narkjDfwA4QTT76U0IX7krSHTRIAVlUe 9PBnMMTgiDeDvGJ0w4qQA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:/Tq5Zz5mRas=:YuWZ0N+S1VVTk0ZC94whjo n6p14QJuagejVaRXW1ENZNM3te4yrDm9Ia1FvYfjErXUQRUKKpluRBgkWO7jUlVoBfpiszEoU Da3j6B7X6GM6TCCWTL0U9H+hrvqv82sY813TntUpmN2zu+imYVL9mykSkS0ER5F6mXG/ZCqRl tRKWbE5KaryKmSr/qyky45Su9vnx4IFr6jcj5H+DwBtS06G1WAKT3YQUMMdxEsnzWTD7z3siT 28yUZ1hxmKxsndHtd22FsridKZ1hic9pIbr3vVB+KKrGWUQdET7xlmhCzcOetxqlrZM7IWcXk NEwLicJZRf4GgS5QyBBgD2k3EgljHdcV2eYaOnHU28Sh4O6bBpP54yTeqT9/+BdYbRxiqhb/7 tWFL4ULFQj5qkCEOoOobRFGoxkrQ4K6v7NVSDZzHRilQ0j5mSOU/zx2CvBy6w9kapms8mBFQD vxYBOpqC7ORvWTkmSj2sagUjxFUMf8HmuFDjkSrVOHt8W5bFteyZ2dbua6m9I6j1KLaM6hjyb gRqC+JAbb31sigOPrHu67nnhAL+VwMm7Fn2/0iB23/EakaEQjWzmA08/c6kYkEdKNrBfRm4+k 7ofWarLxkjq+4pUxOHJZ8u4YOvZLMSDBT5G0Vb2VRaOMtJEH/EIcQQZ7hFRMLIuR3jNXNvmnN f23NGmQyOmr0sWhB041fcsXBBWCs6G/LUcgf1rXL2hhZHO13mO/Y1EAkNbF/gYn6Gl0dca9f8 2KkMGrp5ecf91Jxo1XQlkooMshHgR5iG+rX9+WHBcJO/zoE7Xx4z+F4mWMsWatGAPCEigPnKo TXh96FVV1rBEfcgzHDTBpwduQymiu882h4onKjofFhMECil5MP9hmyLrt/6/VaNvFRQLl/h X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jWmB2QZFz49Nd X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:57:46 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:29:51 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:46 +0200, Polytropon commented: > > [[Extraneous contend truncated]] > > >> Claws-Mail allows a user to create custom folders with predefined > >> "To:". "CC:" and "Reply-To:" fields, among others. That totally > >> eliminates all the guess work, assuming the end-user bothered to > >> properly configure it. > > > >Nobody configures MUAs these days. In a web-driven world, > >users tend to keep using the defaults of the provider. > >The same applies to application MUAs where the defaults > >aren't checked and adjusted to match real use cases. > > Well then, Poly, I must be Mr. Nobody, because I always at least look > at, and usually actually do modify default configurations to suit my > particular work habits. All of us - _we_ are Mr. Nobody - an insignificant part of email users who use the right tools in a proper way. But that does not apply for the majority of smartphone and web users who take everything "as is", and even if given the chance to make the software work better for their individual needs and habits, they just accept their fate. This has lead to less flexible software, i. e., you cannot change certain aspects anymore and _have_ to accept them, either because no user ever asked for it, or because developers never thought of users maybe wanting to do things in a different way. A common misconception seen in offices is that the existing software, by poor defaults, decides how processes should be designed and implemented, instead of leaving that important task to real humans, and support those processes instead. I think that is what people call "software-oriented architecture", SOA: The humanware has to adjust to the software to pay for renting the hardware. :-) > To bring this whole conversation to a quick end, whenever I send a > document to someone that absolutely, positively has to look exactly how > I created it, I use PDF. It eliminates all the problems that you and > others have been describing. Email, at least in my estimation, was never > intended to be used a a means of conveying high level, complex > mathematical formulas, etcetera. If you want pixel-perfect, PDF is probably the best way to go, even though it opens a new bag of problems (specific to PDF and their distribution). Email has its place as a means of asynchronous (!) and versatile communication. It's not a "one size fits all", and never was, but what is? > Bart |^^^^^^^^| > Raven | | > | | > | | > | _ _, .---------------. > | (.).) | | > | .-^--_ | EAT MY SHORTS ! | > \ ' _____) | | > | \ (__ /_-----------------' > / -__/ > / \ > / / . | > / / / | > / \ / ' > / \ / / > / . / > / / X / > / / / |--| |____ > \/\_/ |--| ----. > / |\ \----' > / /| | \ \ > `_/_|_. `- Sprach der Rabe: "Meck meck meck!" -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 18:06:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8D633CBAE for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:06:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jWy21PKwz4BTP for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:06:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D6B54E656 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:06:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> <20200611195744.5d4f9450.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <5a5c40af-ad82-1343-b83a-4dee2999cfdc@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:06:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200611195744.5d4f9450.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jWy21PKwz4BTP X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.03 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.28)[0.277]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.96)[0.961]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.69)[0.691]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:06:19 -0000 On 2020-06-11 12:57, Polytropon wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:29:51 -0400, Jerry wrote: >> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 14:50:46 +0200, Polytropon commented: >> >> [[Extraneous contend truncated]] >> >>>> Claws-Mail allows a user to create custom folders with predefined >>>> "To:". "CC:" and "Reply-To:" fields, among others. That totally >>>> eliminates all the guess work, assuming the end-user bothered to >>>> properly configure it. >>> >>> Nobody configures MUAs these days. In a web-driven world, >>> users tend to keep using the defaults of the provider. >>> The same applies to application MUAs where the defaults >>> aren't checked and adjusted to match real use cases. >> >> Well then, Poly, I must be Mr. Nobody, because I always at least look >> at, and usually actually do modify default configurations to suit my >> particular work habits. > > All of us - _we_ are Mr. Nobody - an insignificant part of > email users who use the right tools in a proper way. But > that does not apply for the majority of smartphone and web > users who take everything "as is", and even if given the > chance to make the software work better for their individual > needs and habits, they just accept their fate. This has > lead to less flexible software, i. e., you cannot change > certain aspects anymore and _have_ to accept them, either > because no user ever asked for it, or because developers > never thought of users maybe wanting to do things in a > different way. > > A common misconception seen in offices is that the existing > software, by poor defaults, decides how processes should be > designed and implemented, instead of leaving that important > task to real humans, and support those processes instead. I > think that is what people call "software-oriented architecture", > SOA: The humanware has to adjust to the software to pay for > renting the hardware. :-) > > > >> To bring this whole conversation to a quick end, whenever I send a >> document to someone that absolutely, positively has to look exactly how >> I created it, I use PDF. It eliminates all the problems that you and >> others have been describing. Email, at least in my estimation, was never >> intended to be used a a means of conveying high level, complex >> mathematical formulas, etcetera. > > If you want pixel-perfect, PDF is probably the best way > to go, I disagree, in case of pixel-perfect it will be image and image only. Not PDF. Some people when they create PDFs, do not embed all fonts specified in the document, and on another person's side these fonts may be replaced with what is found on that person's machine. That's sometimes what I have to explain to my users when they show me garbled PDF sent to them by somebody else. Valeri > even though it opens a new bag of problems (specific > to PDF and their distribution). > > Email has its place as a means of asynchronous (!) and > versatile communication. It's not a "one size fits all", > and never was, but what is? > > > >> Bart |^^^^^^^^| >> Raven | | >> | | >> | | >> | _ _, .---------------. >> | (.).) | | >> | .-^--_ | EAT MY SHORTS ! | >> \ ' _____) | | >> | \ (__ /_-----------------' >> / -__/ >> / \ >> / / . | >> / / / | >> / \ / ' >> / \ / / >> / . / >> / / X / >> / / / |--| |____ >> \/\_/ |--| ----. >> / |\ \----' >> / /| | \ \ >> `_/_|_. `- > > Sprach der Rabe: "Meck meck meck!" > > > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 22:42:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9103442BC for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 22:42:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jf4Q5D79z4Wnh for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 22:42:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49jf4Q14BFzqnK for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:42:11 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jf4Q5D79z4Wnh X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.79 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.980]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.26)[0.258]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.56)[-0.565]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 22:42:15 -0000 On 2020-06-11 11:25, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > There's still the issue with line wrapping. Due to the small screens of > mobile phones and unwillingness to change the orientation of the > phones, we suffer from the dispute of wrapping lines at around 70 or 80 > chars vs endless lines. Small screens, small windows on big screens, windows much wider than 80 characters, variable-size windows. That's a real problem, and solved cleanly, for text in some human languages, by software that automatically fills and word-wraps text to use whatever width is available. But it's often done by redefining the ASCII characters carriage return and line feed. Originally they meant, respectively, move the print head to the left margin, and roll the paper up a line. Fill-and-wrap software often redefines the two-character sequence CRLF to mean end of paragraph. And, of course, nothing in the text tells other software that those characters have been redefined. There are solutions for email that don't involve trying to twist a character set: text/plain format=flowed (RFC 3676), text/enriched, and an unofficial trick with quoted-printable that I've seen used by AppleMail. All we have to do is persuade mail readers to implement them, and people to use them. Easy, right? :-) From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Jun 11 23:14:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F43344D00 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 23:14:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: from outgoing.tristatelogic.com (segfault.tristatelogic.com [69.62.255.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jfnN0gWLz4YYc for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 23:14:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id 46F7E4E751; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:14:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Bug or Feature? -- Disappearing /dev/ nodes after mount MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <86545.1591917248.1@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:14:09 -0700 Message-ID: <86546.1591917249@segfault.tristatelogic.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jfnN0gWLz4YYc X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rfg@tristatelogic.com designates 69.62.255.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rfg@tristatelogic.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.58)[-0.584]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tristatelogic.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.65)[-0.647]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.32)[0.320]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14051, ipnet:69.62.128.0/17, country:US]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 23:14:17 -0000 If a disk device which has been partitioned using GPT partitioning exists and is powered on and is installed in a given system, and if there exists on that disk device a GPT partition which had been given the GPT partition name `partname' then a character special device node representing that specific partition will normally appear, automagically, underneath the /dev/gpt/ directory. The node in question will have the name `/dev/gpt/partname' Interestingly, as I have just learned, when and if the user subesquently mounts the relevant partition, the corresponding `/dev/gpt/partname' node will, rather unexpectedly and magically, disappear until such time as the relevant partition is unmounted, whereupon it will reappear. Despite having looked over several of the arguably relevant man pages, I have not found any place where this specific bit of automagical kernel behavior is documented. Thus, I am left with questions: 0) Am I the only one who has observed this specific behavior? 1) Is this behavior documented somewhere that I just failed to look at? If so, where? 2) Is there a consensus that the magical disappearance of /dev/gpt/ device nodes during times when the corresponding partition is mounted represents a feature, rather than a bug? Regards, rfg P.S. Despite the occasional disappearance of /dev/gpt/ device nodes, as described above, a complete listing of all of the GPT partitions, irrespecitive of their mount status, along with their respective labels, is still always available via `gpart show -l '. The `glabel list' command also shows all relevant partitions and their GPT lables, once again, irrespective of the mount status of any of the relevant partitions. P.P.S. I have not checked, but it is my assumption that this disappearing /dev/ node "feature" likely also affects device nodes that get automagically created underneath any of the other /dev/ subdirectories listed in the glabel(8) man page. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 00:01:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E4B8345A9E for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 00:01:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: from outgoing.tristatelogic.com (segfault.tristatelogic.com [69.62.255.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jgqg0mrNz4bjw for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 00:01:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id 40DC64E751; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:01:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Makin' backups -- questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <86751.1591920076.1@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 17:01:17 -0700 Message-ID: <86752.1591920077@segfault.tristatelogic.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jgqg0mrNz4bjw X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rfg@tristatelogic.com designates 69.62.255.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rfg@tristatelogic.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.52 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.49)[-0.487]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tristatelogic.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.58)[-0.582]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.16)[-0.155]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14051, ipnet:69.62.128.0/17, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 00:01:20 -0000 I'm re-writing my backup scripts and could use a bit of advice. I make routine full but "incremental" backups of all of my drives and partitions by using rsync, updating the relevant removable drives so that I always have a full set of relatively current images, including even my boot drive, which, if worse came to worse, I could quickly install as replacements for my regular drives and then just boot normally. Anyway, when I am making my backups this way I do use the --exclude-from=FILE option for each separate partition that I back up, and I pre-populate the relevant exclusion files with pathnames that I don't believe should be backed up (e.g. /.snap). I also use the --delete and --delete-excluded options. No sense in having useless gunk messing up my backup partitions. There are however a few things that I'm not sure if I should or should not be routinely backing up. First and foremost, I have always wondered about the wisdom, or lack thereof, of using rsync to back up the various UFS partition /.sujournal files. It seems to me that given the fact that I am asking rsync to simply copy the source .sujournal file to the backup partition... which is live and active as I am doing that... that this is probably a Bad Idea. So for now I am simply excluding from the backups all of the .sujournal files. So, I'm just wondering... Given that I am doing that and that I thus end up with -no- .sujournal files on my backup partitions, should I be using tunefs and turning off journaling on all of these (backup) UFS partitions? Separately, I do also wonder about the stuff in my /var partition, and about what bits of that stuff are really just ephemeral flotsam that are just a waste of time to back up. So, dear friends, which of the following are subdirectories that you believe would be a waste of time to make backups of? Which if any of these would cause a system to refuse to boot, if the directories themselves simply did not exist? (Note that this is -not- a full list of all of the directories under my /var directory. I have pre-trimmed out all of the ones that I know that I do want to back up routinely.) /var/at /var/at/jobs /var/at/spool /var/account /var/crash /var/run /var/run/ppp /var/run/dhclient /var/run/wpa_supplicant /var/run/resolvconf /var/run/resolvconf/interfaces /var/run/resolvconf/metrics /var/run/avahi-daemon /var/run/tpm /var/run/dbus /var/run/cups /var/run/cups/certs /var/run/PolicyKit /var/run/ConsoleKit /var/run/libuuid /var/run/hald /var/run/hald/hald-local /var/run/hald/hald-runner /var/run/samba4 /var/run/samba4/nmbd /var/run/samba4/ncalrpc /var/run/samba4/ncalrpc/np /var/run/samba4/winbindd /var/run/lirc /var/audit /var/audit/remote /var/audit/dist /var/yp /var/msgs /var/db /var/db/etcupdate /var/db/etcupdate/current /var/db/etcupdate/current/usr /var/db/etcupdate/current/usr/share /var/db/etcupdate/current/usr/share/nls /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/autofs /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/gss /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/defaults /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/newsyslog.conf.d /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/mail /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/bluetooth /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/pkg /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/mtree /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/dma /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/ssl /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/security /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/cron.d /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/syslog.d /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/devd /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/ppp /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/periodic /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/periodic/security /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/periodic/monthly /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/periodic/weekly /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/periodic/daily /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/pam.d /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/ssh /var/db/etcupdate/current/etc/rc.d /var/db/etcupdate/current/boot /var/db/etcupdate/current/root /var/db/etcupdate/current/var /var/db/etcupdate/current/var/crash /var/db/ports /var/db/ports/multimedia_smplayer /var/db/ports/devel_gmake /var/db/ports/multimedia_ffmpeg /var/db/ports/devel_nasm /var/db/ports/devel_binutils /var/db/ports/devel_bison /var/db/ports/print_texinfo /var/db/ports/misc_help2man /var/db/ports/textproc_texi2html /var/db/ports/devel_cmake /var/db/ports/devel_py-Jinja2 /var/db/ports/devel_py-babel /var/db/ports/textproc_py-docutils /var/db/ports/textproc_py-snowballstemmer /var/db/ports/security_py-openssl /var/db/ports/devel_p5-Locale-libintl /var/db/ports/devel_automake /var/db/ports/security_rhash /var/db/ports/devel_ninja /var/db/ports/audio_lame /var/db/ipf /var/db/zfsd /var/db/zfsd/cases /var/db/pkg /var/db/hyperv /var/db/freebsd-update /var/db/entropy /var/db/ntp /var/db/portsnap /var/db/portsnap/files /var/db/fontconfig /var/db/colord /var/db/colord/icc /var/db/rarian /var/db/samba4 /var/db/samba4/private /var/db/samba4/private/msg.sock /var/db/samba4/bind-dns /var/db/samba4/msg.lock /var/db/samba4/printing /var/db/samba4/winbindd_privileged /var/db/postfix /var/db/mysql /var/db/mysql/mysql /var/db/mysql/#innodb_temp /var/db/mysql/performance_schema /var/db/mysql/sys /var/db/mysql_secure /var/db/mysql_tmpdir /var/tmp /var/tmp/vi.recover /var/games /var/preserve /var/authpf /var/empty /var/cron /var/cron/tabs /var/backups /var/rwho /var/log /var/log/ConsoleKit /var/log/cups /var/log/samba /var/log/samba4 /var/spool /var/spool/lpd /var/spool/lpd/lp /var/spool/dma /var/spool/output /var/spool/output/lpd /var/spool/opielocks /var/spool/mqueue /var/spool/clientmqueue /var/spool/lock /var/spool/cups /var/spool/cups/tmp /var/cache /var/cache/pkg /var/cache/cups /var/cache/cups/rss /var/cache/hald /var/heimdal /var/lib /var/lib/xkb /var/lib/dbus /var/lib/polkit-1 /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/90-mandatory.d /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/50-local.d /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/30-site.d /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/20-org.d /var/lib/polkit-1/localauthority/10-vendor.d /var/lib/PolicyKit /var/lib/PolicyKit-public /var/lib/misc /var/lib/hal /var/lib/hp /var/agentx From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 00:45:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FFC32801E for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 00:45:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jhpw556Jz4fgT for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 00:45:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id EFFD041DEF; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 00:45:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.21.88.29] (unknown [154.213.3.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DC7441550 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 00:45:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> From: Warren Hua Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:45:36 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jhpw556Jz4fgT X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.21 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.925]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.45)[0.445]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.73)[-0.726]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 00:45:45 -0000 Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > From my email addresses I'm using those addresses that do cause no or > less issues with a mailing list. This could change from one day to > another, not only related to DKIM. A few weeks back Zoho stopped > allowing to post to a mailing list, due to an unusual amount of > traffic. Actually it wasn't much traffic at all. Apart from this > it's not easy for me to get a new free as in beer address, since it > nowadays usually requires a mobile phone number, to get a verification > SMS. Other than Apple, PayPal, Online-Banks etc., free as in beer ISPs > don't send spoken SMS to landline. That's nice. I also had a old yahoo email (from 90s IMO), whose DMARC setting make me not comfortable. So I bought a domain and tried to setup my email server on freebsd. :) regards. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 03:20:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18B332B27D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:20:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic303-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic303-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jmFp2TVcz3YPg for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:20:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: fqk0TLEVM1lbRMDsgT9fpEfmv8mr3SJtqX2JTwax8LqIiyltDShl0D0jgP52jX_ 5fn0TttmhI756NbVZQoYjnpyurab1RG2UJwF1d5y5v9NOX56ejARZ5mwPwFFfGY3VO2vtZJpqAKK AudZsb6JLTosW9IFp6TeaZ_EkqxStfptF_5XG48o0Y0.Mq8jn11wVAflefnREco0QEaSJsOxk5Xi dy3u4xR5f1WRqtBlHVVfpGnwnSycnXlhAJO5PghnAbPy3n7Qw4ZAF7GFFapQVgJvRnKdKGTXjK.. BGeyWJfNaqVB2mypUx6DctjDbODwChCSZ5hqBQF0glsdGxphTo87NlSXzQehoPh3NkB5qegUCqmH 16NHgnsWL6eoYCaMwXdVY15f8bsTnzH0oL0V7A9WjFkP9wHZNIoa_PgEiozaGEruBXhyX9mwMDPW LopgtQtvcmKTF8TS2t8pJduH5oadi21AgVd_kwj_rARjGR22zHZklbp4ayAaAXptwNPmBktdEM3n KCy5WtxLAAxJZtmJM.YVlWcbmfm05xOsE_7MDertkcbvQapX310JuKPSoA36d98iHeEXCYHsWm9Y Y6EdiZSYUMlEeW17aRtrgySbbTzLvkhvvSpfoK_TIYBhKV34Weo55zH5Ri0VX7JrBQpdOOGBRwXV ooFQGEjbfzNWBFQAO5BGGh1Z7fuvF2E2k4uMkbHDFWsz.MTOnt3Xwr1HpVbyz4S50pdx.QeJXXrl PujGOrShKBns2tfFRvwiUbzvF.w99nag0LCnyy5LWgZ.RjuBHJQwWxZ6QLT__VQXsvZc6bUrnKLS n8N_2YkK0G5UfmSIfhoHlSJIDQRiu40whMEn_5IFtslHicAXPpEejq8drJNKETSR7JPTkt7NKFXu 0zpn7F6CpCeUBQXHwB5NwK2_wWN53KgFFNYhv2S7DLHJQNhJlr9KRRXi516LzoGfrIcqHd_JcERI vBeMuMrzXJzxMlLap9o2RxzC.UhPn9Apagm0rc2Oj05AeTRvFfktaTwiYI4y2P4aTQ78sqvStNeJ PCCNErhKbwvtBGpQ5uvFiVGbxuP2mmkm6Yt_JGHHk8RQQ14NpVvH0PWwtApk53x41SOG02QNQFvt 84GodY5_nBHcABumR3BBSOuG.dH4nSrpCJBS5qf9gfDRlDENPiZBvIEC.oN6CbpL1TK.DTVwyHcp _V5L9CryNPxelad9oD6a0BDEhyJuHeoKhX.LR5BNjkvh5Y6zXFX3Hd0yw45dCo_bB8ZHZlTxkpDH gTf_K18rmWE1dhG0B1qHN4BTotOncU0vO41RppQw9J8vjrjSPbtSxxAYUeEGRz0mJV7AYXpij.dW 6jO.1EODwzlzQgttIEOd22eOU9_vnPYva.BBhAQQFdT5LOWSYDXqJ03.4f_hqxB5pCw4dT46USGl TjTLaRPjwXhyE3A-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:20:43 +0000 Received: by smtp428.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9487e4a965e8f7f1bc3df81f5e2d4d41; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:20:43 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:20:47 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200612052047.7e313b3e@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jmFp2TVcz3YPg X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.98 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.178.200:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.50)[-0.498]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.178.200:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:20:47 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:45:36 +0800, Warren Hua wrote: >Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >> From my email addresses I'm using those addresses that do cause no >> or less issues with a mailing list. This could change from one day to >> another, not only related to DKIM. A few weeks back Zoho stopped >> allowing to post to a mailing list, due to an unusual amount of >> traffic. Actually it wasn't much traffic at all. Apart from this >> it's not easy for me to get a new free as in beer address, since it >> nowadays usually requires a mobile phone number, to get a >> verification SMS. Other than Apple, PayPal, Online-Banks etc., free >> as in beer ISPs don't send spoken SMS to landline. > >That's nice. I also had a old yahoo email (from 90s IMO), whose DMARC >setting make me not comfortable. So I bought a domain and tried to >setup my email server on freebsd. :) I wonder what I can do and what I can not do with my https://freeshell.de/ account. I'm registered since end of April, but I've got a lot of construction zones I wish to finish, before I'll spend some time with it. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 03:35:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A14732BB74 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:35:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jmZw2xDmz3ZM8 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:35:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.143.110]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C0BF84E656 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 22:35:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <20200612052047.7e313b3e@archlinux> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <7569654a-2c52-a6be-5e10-d732294f912b@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 22:33:24 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200612052047.7e313b3e@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jmZw2xDmz3ZM8 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.35 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.143.110:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.51)[0.507]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.997]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.75)[0.747]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:35:37 -0000 On 6/11/20 10:20 PM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:45:36 +0800, Warren Hua wrote: >> Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >>> From my email addresses I'm using those addresses that do cause no >>> or less issues with a mailing list. This could change from one day to >>> another, not only related to DKIM. A few weeks back Zoho stopped >>> allowing to post to a mailing list, due to an unusual amount of >>> traffic. Actually it wasn't much traffic at all. Apart from this >>> it's not easy for me to get a new free as in beer address, since it >>> nowadays usually requires a mobile phone number, to get a >>> verification SMS. Other than Apple, PayPal, Online-Banks etc., free >>> as in beer ISPs don't send spoken SMS to landline. >> >> That's nice. I also had a old yahoo email (from 90s IMO), whose DMARC >> setting make me not comfortable. So I bought a domain and tried to >> setup my email server on freebsd. :) > > I wonder what I can do and what I can not do with my > https://freeshell.de/ account. I'm registered since end of April, but > I've got a lot of construction zones I wish to finish, before I'll spend > some time with it. Unless you have paid account (and they charge really nominal money) you will have really little email space there. Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 04:45:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0B032E00D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 04:45:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andipersti@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x634.google.com (mail-ej1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jp7Y2Sv3z3fHp for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 04:45:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andipersti@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ej1-x634.google.com with SMTP id dr13so8751751ejc.3 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 21:45:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qiXwwJQd0M+RPhIWKUPoMOEpKHycCD3XceQ0qHYX7Gk=; b=O2b0Z5X1nk4NGPTm4AKKZk1+ukXwYfI+rbsxPFNVuRrTqc3sHGck4+uNabEVIBPrb5 99aZ6DncYHRsUSUT0Bj4MHr9RAKehcKFU6GAesUw8/bu5GEooeLgfpJh1eAeYf37W1Ze Jfl2mMosfz0whATZaBh8INpFbgrJCsI2UDIFbMHkUU0X0AuyDQYNllNhpQtH7GiW3Pu2 lz1j0UIaUZzUm3xpEt6AGsr8z5u8aNmBP8emfpAf7daV6PKUDNTFkgqDHvoovDftrVU3 gBfDd09MpPnCWBIcvqmRIf9KLc/nQyap4jz12RZO3YDolCtaeDAo3K5tFmbLyJ2rDmub ufOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qiXwwJQd0M+RPhIWKUPoMOEpKHycCD3XceQ0qHYX7Gk=; b=qflcFqAWbxfBt+aw/nZbHkRXbtJeJBO23223X+YsVu7klARS6vjBrlnJn0KnxL6yCN 9r2kXb1iz/tEeEXU7dRQKHyYphavHZSIDQT5GF02ub3RWY0RQXCwghKr4kAvrzbSxXHQ Y2od+NV1ljIlT8sYd21G0oWiSleLj6Dva++L6V5YQ5QxK6SDdRGZd8WRAHOUInyRoM2/ J6WFM27io1CboeqV5lNdFz6QFnu9foCBJGfY6ApNK88RTZ9ItPiWKBDSEa+tJ+GvMtSB qgOu6rXDzP9PuNZnHma5OLGQ6oteX2MEZS9cn7vYoG7g1KEropuHpI9sIG66zNmCN2h5 hM4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5309xI6gNUIxeJPFPKGPndBBgtugEcNwPA5LFdfaXl1K8oggexBo AfoMrGf+49/F3ZhzL0+7hlc3k9Mm+D4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzkfyJEwP6TCaBmEYVcsA6oXOz8XAXydbA2QxJHOKiUKvOkfPxsnN8XZth5ljF2/0+8KF4ggA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:150c:: with SMTP id b12mr10460762ejd.545.1591937127209; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 21:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] (91-118-242-180.static.upcbusiness.at. [91.118.242.180]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y21sm1411034edl.72.2020.06.11.21.45.25 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Jun 2020 21:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <36a71c5c-ccf0-d28d-c6c1-1d9c80873a12@yuripv.dev> <20200611143046.2f97b54a@archlinux> <20200611153924.62a3719a@archlinux> From: Andreas Perstinger Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:45:24 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US-large Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jp7Y2Sv3z3fHp X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=O2b0Z5X1; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of andipersti@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::634 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=andipersti@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.32 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.027]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::634:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.29)[-0.294]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 04:45:30 -0000 On 11.06.20 16:27, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > Talk about living in a bubble! Here is a list of the most popular mail > clients (in slang terms MUA's as used loosely in this thread) not a single > one of them is listed so far in this discussion. Summary: The web crushes > all! (If you don't include smartphone MUA's) > > https://emailclientmarketshare.com/ That's a completely biased statistic IMHO. From that page: "Email client usage worldwide, collected from 1.4 billion email opens. ... Since determining the client in which an email is opened requires images to be displayed, the data for some email clients and mobile devices might be over- or under-represented due to automatic image blocking." So you need to open a spam mail (Litmus' slogan is "Email Marketing Made Better") and allow tracking by image in order to get counted. Bye, Andreas From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 05:53:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250C432F62D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:53:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jqfM0gvqz3yt2 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:53:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.138]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MMX9b-1jSNGL0DCh-00Ja2B; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:53:42 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:53:41 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200612075341.b95445bb.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <5a5c40af-ad82-1343-b83a-4dee2999cfdc@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <20200611145046.6edffaf3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611132951.000058cd@seibercom.net> <20200611195744.5d4f9450.freebsd@edvax.de> <5a5c40af-ad82-1343-b83a-4dee2999cfdc@kicp.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:m33lYv49K/FzxlH6ANW9tf19TYLxjM/p9a1w8HyndylXdADIbmQ /Q+hqmUKSeLPU1vIeiermOzXhDayjE13epvL5RY1/CAAt5XxYMXUGHGlrRhz6xtsuNGYzAv XtwRLMPhAPEUMiGsn6n0pjVLCxdEedKz5d9H+0XAMOVr45ujvqeSOpKkHODsNg3/I8h/QF6 DXuRFsQ2deB2RzypZkcrA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:0/IWV2fUmrU=:RdLB86bR0RLOHAIDkln5yk NQVeNZJ29epVOhgmMXqAxWL/huqqgvub/CGPjCnQgn6EDJZGLPFEuf11Ktv+DwrXGxTXrxf51 2jdCd2DUzCwWoeVpTdtDDU+BDJKiZcWNHtJSNdMTqSW21UVccg0QIvbm5N79nUK+w9PSQaMGI fCeDK5O4giGXV32BrHsvJwRu3+KLCWbiXzX50WM2iVHDy1W+A4Dj9DQNdOJFu67mvy5EiQQCc qpnL40GrAbC54Y3Oob6Fi8sblH+8g7muVfo5P9dQ4gaGgCrDMyOGiy2o23QYfnAYagYPfav6O s0mHhvr1TdjwaseHnQ+eduFTt4bcv7STUTOAEO3fck6p/u404ztG/3/zcWL7KpJLTJRcYav8h EbSemnuofoeALELUzh68bvfvy6VUvaa6dP/9DLy+EB0j3gsR2ohL4F9k+ezuHPDVs7LlL+wUJ ZaXsabbUox9e2qHyo83TMNuDnYc8do+HqMwFtGFBDcu2fa58CrwSM9hHxrlHsCSxQmD2IQjgC cYZCYmnino77EXAgk4fhoauT2uCOilKDx/m1VAQbFI/Lz53so51XC7pF2HH8UqUsQBV30oNbR CL4yDBSerTZOHs57hK1UT/EH0xCCX5xXS3kDwSWzmfUtVADq6wt08mdVNalXXUpIIRwYOiBkf dp5Ek1RlQtUVyyZjR8k26qu46nmR1EyqbmF8yjm+Hfo5RyBWEQeiny3qpKs6HjOIYJpBFG+Cf EtOvE0Oi5D3nr03xBiTzQky5qZfXo7J4Tz47jlxKk4SyrMwcbclsfkvO5W+8wUC76g9KDkZXo +Ab55Ss0qo/LMyOz98NOUlDPHXaZzR682T9+zrlvqtU+SD7FRxkPpJHGQpEvfIhHAw/jivA X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jqfM0gvqz3yt2 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.96 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.56)[-0.559]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.39.138:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.59)[0.587]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.53)[0.529]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:53:48 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:06:16 -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 2020-06-11 12:57, Polytropon wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 13:29:51 -0400, Jerry wrote: > [...] > >> To bring this whole conversation to a quick end, whenever I send a > >> document to someone that absolutely, positively has to look exactly how > >> I created it, I use PDF. It eliminates all the problems that you and > >> others have been describing. Email, at least in my estimation, was never > >> intended to be used a a means of conveying high level, complex > >> mathematical formulas, etcetera. > > > > If you want pixel-perfect, PDF is probably the best way > > to go, > > I disagree, in case of pixel-perfect it will be image and image only. I meant "for ordinary people", as in "I want to make annotations" or "I want to print the document". :-) Technically, I fully agree with you. > Not PDF. Some people when they create PDFs, do not embed all fonts > specified in the document, and on another person's side these fonts may > be replaced with what is found on that person's machine. That's > sometimes what I have to explain to my users when they show me garbled > PDF sent to them by somebody else. Exactly, that's only one of the possible problems when you deal with PDF. Enter printing, and you'll also have to deal with color spaces, geometry, PDF standards... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 05:55:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D029032F654 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:55:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jqhp0DfQz40H7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:55:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id 753594102D; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:55:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.21.88.29] (unknown [154.213.3.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 785B240EEB for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:55:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611091449.383e1d83@archlinux> <53a6833e-db63-2395-4d2e-f05a9b1fb269@boxsci.com> <20200611112418.0bb0c896b685c84ed8d6a8f6@sohara.org> <20200611135639.0c07500e@archlinux> <20200612052047.7e313b3e@archlinux> From: Warren Hua Message-ID: <1187ae1b-8459-0eff-5132-ee63c1b9522b@boxsci.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:55:45 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200612052047.7e313b3e@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jqhp0DfQz40H7 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.69 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.929]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.02)[-0.020]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.74)[-0.740]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=m06Y=7Z=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:55:54 -0000 Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > I wonder what I can do and what I can not do with my > https://freeshell.de/ account. I'm registered since end of April, but > I've got a lot of construction zones I wish to finish, before I'll spend > some time with it. Ralf, if you would like it I could send you an invitation code for riseup.net which works well for mailing list and doesn't require a mobile for verification. regards. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 06:14:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE20E32FEA4 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:14:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jr5p5hk6z41G8 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:14:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.138]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MODeL-1jYOYt2Njd-00OTrU; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:14:02 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:14:01 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Kurt Hackenberg Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:a2h3iztLADKfwmqSmtBzvipxv+u1ceQSaBI+RcxSoQhgXNHM0/d 6J5RgTEd2s1YhQgSXriKc5z76zoMVg+Vc7nv2IFX1iadMPbAZ38zQ2c5Cz/H9PSfReG3kfZ DLA2G6xYbNUy6G6Lg1+BZg5UsQz3OxEDBYEnd1hatcC5Vc2cQedfoCfEuBK6wQx+2Bk5kXS Qrrrl5VL7hPbXZfLGWyxw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:aIzz0xu3K+8=:26nkWX4q2bhHC2GCvyzgx1 vphf+Ct68LmVQ7JrfnJdJc2HXhc+EJ+6cgJUZ+nxBau6Z9C7KFvZK709t+awQ7GERicO10wQg jfE7hqfKPdGLFn1n51XzV7Le44p2D+g+YKBP/PMrnInxjPlvTm3rngmy9IXD5X39mP1mWD/BL ePburXDhu1obpxqqws/dHgzy7+9zjXV1tr+W+riePeE8F4c/P4XEJKBLdWfCMwEs9blDLvfXM 7bEnhb5dWD1dFQmHqcTdbTTblhylu2QFLWKiOm+vd/UZ6uNq3ehfPWMf7Jhf9QXIFboudbTlU mqLf2PEYaOwSfAkAf85VqjwH6SwguRhDVTx6PRKjClS9kauuoOPKJOX95k1CadDbTTaX6dLNG 4SkQZxQW4Q7qOipAuLUivX1lgMUxQEveq7E7Z3yf0FK4FuNfei2OSrSts/Dl2nTHGVLh4lStT muSzW1XFzt01miSynLEmi2QxeNcQVZGbkKv7yzdNjVM1Zd9KOUi220YZWjvudfXlaJ9ELe8bf MndtXAQ+93hw+R9vl0xlgnEZaLOJtcCJeXdigZ0+YB+L9hu5TboonQX5nErXgSkeL061zRnEA bJ4iIwu0mOkOg0wAu34TZeWgJ1+Hs+OOqTnqjDOsOGc8UU5doC5Ok4OryyWkhQoOAH26ZOwhe EZQXMbFzLt+dQgUpKfOfh1dshXOQvDUREnMIKu/2QRP9gfOKr0SfOq25ryug3LZaCrNs+Aet0 olO7U9aIAd2BFpd2b5SZRo9gfoOO7sSoSing1M941/JDTONY8z9TbGU/rXLCMpt5npp6SIbgj a15BKs+7JORmianZapFzYT38swSBJmArx6GJ2FVUkcQ8sy6Af8= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jr5p5hk6z41G8 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.95 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.56)[-0.558]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.39.138:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.58)[0.581]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.53)[0.527]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.130:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:14:07 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 18:42:11 -0400, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > On 2020-06-11 11:25, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > There's still the issue with line wrapping. Due to the small screens of > > mobile phones and unwillingness to change the orientation of the > > phones, we suffer from the dispute of wrapping lines at around 70 or 80 > > chars vs endless lines. > Small screens, small windows on big screens, windows much wider than 80 > characters, variable-size windows. That's a real problem, and solved > cleanly, for text in some human languages, by software that > automatically fills and word-wraps text to use whatever width is available. > > But it's often done by redefining the ASCII characters carriage return > and line feed. Originally they meant, respectively, move the print head > to the left margin, and roll the paper up a line. Erm... no. The carriage return returns the _carriage_ to the first position (here: to the right), that's why it is called carriage return and not print head return. :-) On older electrical typewriters, you will see the following: +--> | | | which means exactly what you're describing: move the carriage, advance the paper. On traditional teletypes, there are distinct keys for each task, often labeled --- --- --- (three horizontal bars) for line feed, and < (chevron pointing to the left) for carriage return. With the advance of computers and video terminal units, the key symbol became | | | <---+ which describes what the _cursor_ does. Yes, I am old. ;-) > Fill-and-wrap software > often redefines the two-character sequence CRLF to mean end of > paragraph. And, of course, nothing in the text tells other software that > those characters have been redefined. And there are authors who "embed" things in paragraphs, sometimes intendedly, which leads to all this "smart logic" to collapse. In the end, you have messages with one line containing everything (including quoting prefixes). Even the best logic and heuristic approach can be fooled. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 06:22:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 535CA330333 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jrHS3Lryz41N7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:22:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.138]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N6KpF-1iqZYG1Beb-016br3; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:22:25 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:22:24 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? -- Disappearing /dev/ nodes after mount Message-Id: <20200612082224.9c1e3797.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <86546.1591917249@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <86546.1591917249@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NBbmugeZ27DsPgo1KvPMKTLNuZ9dLR5WU8zodxZRHKQGCnuYWtJ Jst8YwuQoqejnhvNib+urBFeUXtRLXVgiiV+QrhwTJP8CM1BmY+adcETfK7pHWyuMuuSWyW OJnjuAc8o35iIjIovX393A+zBnhUXE5inMXy3Wie+fQR+BDqpQkU/1CvaMHADl/TUXbSbx9 vs3OvqB2TcdiIiSeS/Mbw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:lIpbL/9IsBM=:AJbcLzvHIj/G7x+XJC9T1e ZjahwyRjO6PiV8zwEOeFdyoQKBucLtbm19Vwib3kM/f8BNq+toUaBVFRqp1r2JfZ8TBsUW3fL I7N9jmiMsOkV1JAZNP0eiFw4jd1npJT9c2BA4r0o1tpM8o+p8UVs5NLip3rqH1iUqsGpoODB9 gB68GTlyh44mT87sGccE/H1dE/wEzzbraKGdrG7sRSbaCkqd25yU/dpLEtAWMwXFhxCEeZa26 gnKHxG4AxePDW+f6/pjxVABvbanQMXPGEDuHXpg+o8yTizt0cddfiyKx/ryMZk0QFtQqiMjoe LWFm6FZR/lqq91fpuRjw+osziWCprL8bbANqGB7kaXWiq/qs7d7ab55nevubKlA465WeCtVkf xTfnC2RWOkdn0JB7g0CZtbTkGvvAy6CWaDvU4yzSDlA3IHaNsTy3SJjtoc3x0ss3KXW2XTY98 jsJCeKtKmWpsnh0MKRaiBhFP3s+TQJmr53Ic4q2CflN/w2Ps6g9W0e0qQVsbNagOKDJPExjrj vnFt/uj2C34T2k72k23sd0qtzXqs/4ojYoGMCpUhNXmP9RKDf1VhKl+hjk49WPcyHsBQFu4OV qAjTKnNazohK8LjNQ0APp6/yrIpTJQ4ikIcA7JqGqK8q1bfrVufAY0ZyL/vRH2zzIswgXhKCW NysOoir3ontuj9jGq5YCZTasd0OsQzD0CtviP6vNCikZAfeSqZoBO6IX9EFl2h1cbhg+eZ2JZ Bz1z6MuGwTEEuxFCyVRtNJC1vQ+C5dKghMTd+7kVvcEOkRnbcH/8G5a1OEVPwwTHhcgXObvwo GtHcHNqckqXFI2uAwsLckOO41D/tk8cO3QrA5JtAqNOpe4Ix80JR3W6sVfn0x8+AqWjiSu2 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jrHS3Lryz41N7 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.71 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.62)[-0.618]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.39.138:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.49)[0.488]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.44)[0.439]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:22:29 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:14:09 -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > If a disk device which has been partitioned using GPT partitioning exists > and is powered on and is installed in a given system, and if there exists > on that disk device a GPT partition which had been given the GPT partition > name `partname' then a character special device node representing that > specific partition will normally appear, automagically, underneath the > /dev/gpt/ directory. The node in question will have the name > `/dev/gpt/partname' > > Interestingly, as I have just learned, when and if the user subesquently > mounts the relevant partition, the corresponding `/dev/gpt/partname' node > will, rather unexpectedly and magically, disappear until such time as the > relevant partition is unmounted, whereupon it will reappear. That is correct. The "provider" for a storage resource, to borrow from GEOM terminology, has been consumed, so the corresponding device file is no longer present. However, if you issue commands like "mount" or "df", you'll still be able to see its name. The disk device file name of course is still present, so if you have /dev/ada0p1 which is /dev/gpt/data, and you do "mount -t ufs /dev/gpt/data /mnt", then /dev/gpt/data will disappear (provider consumed), but /dev/ada0p1 is still there (and allowing you to perform specific low-level "sub-FS" disk operations). If you then see "mount -v", you will see the label name in there. > Despite having looked over several of the arguably relevant man pages, > I have not found any place where this specific bit of automagical kernel > behavior is documented. Thus, I am left with questions: > > 0) Am I the only one who has observed this specific behavior? No, it is normal and expected. > 1) Is this behavior documented somewhere that I just failed to look at? > If so, where? Interesting question - I would be interested in that, too. > 2) Is there a consensus that the magical disappearance of /dev/gpt/ device > nodes during times when the corresponding partition is mounted represents > a feature, rather than a bug? As I said, it's normal, and it doesn't just apply to GPT labels, but if I remember correctly, to _all_ labels, such as UFS labels (/dev/ufs/*) and glabel labels (/dev/label/*), maybe even to UFSIDs (/dev/ufsid/*). > P.S. Despite the occasional disappearance of /dev/gpt/ device nodes, > as described above, a complete listing of all of the GPT partitions, > irrespecitive of their mount status, along with their respective labels, > is still always available via `gpart show -l '. The `glabel list' > command also shows all relevant partitions and their GPT lables, once > again, irrespective of the mount status of any of the relevant partitions. Correct. > P.P.S. I have not checked, but it is my assumption that this disappearing > /dev/ node "feature" likely also affects device nodes that get automagically > created underneath any of the other /dev/ subdirectories listed in the > glabel(8) man page. Yes, I think this assumption is true for all labeling mechanisms. And /dev/cpu0: device disappeared. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 06:48:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33972331023 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:48:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jrsP0qcKz42vv for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:48:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 23:48:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Makin' backups -- questions To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <86752.1591920077@segfault.tristatelogic.com> From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 23:48:12 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <86752.1591920077@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jrsP0qcKz42vv X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.37 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.63)[0.633]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.94)[0.939]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.90)[0.901]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:48:27 -0000 On 2020-06-11 17:01, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > I'm re-writing my backup scripts and could use a bit of advice. I have used rsync(1) for backup and restore of data files for many years. Similarly, I use cvs(1) to manage my system configuration files. But I very much doubt that an rsync(1) copy of a live system disk is going to be correct. Excluding anything makes me even more incredulous. AIUI the traditional Unix backup/ restore process is to shutdown the machine, boot a live USB stick or move the source drive into another computer, mount the source filesystem(s) read-only, and use dump(8) to serialize each filesystem to a file. Restoration consists of preparing a target device with a partitioning scheme, boot loader(s), slice(s), partition(s), and/or filesystem(s), and then using restore(8) to deserialize the files into the target filesystems. (See Clonezilla [1].) The simplest, but least efficient, backup method I have found for system drives is to copy the device raw sectors to a file with dd(1) ("take an image"). Restoration consists of copying an image file to a target device (no preparation necessary, but I typically wipe and test the target device first). This works for me because: 1. dd(1) is a lowest-common-denominator tool, available on most every install/ rescue/ live disc. 2. I use MBR partitioning, to avoid problems with the GPT backup partition table when the source and target device sizes differ. 3. I keep my system images "small" -- boot track (sectors 0-62), free space for 1 MiB alignment (sectors 63-2047), and ~14 GiB slice/ partitions for boot, swap, and root. This allows me to use "16 GB" or larger USB flash drives, SD card, SSD's, or HDD's for system drives, and two dozen images or more can fit into ~200 to ~300 GB. David [1] https://clonezilla.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 06:55:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D919F3311DB for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:55:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49js105MHrz42tw for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:55:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2020 23:54:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? -- Disappearing /dev/ nodes after mount To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <86546.1591917249@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200612082224.9c1e3797.freebsd@edvax.de> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <01fb8c1e-a9e8-816e-a2ef-2c45c721687c@holgerdanske.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 23:54:55 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200612082224.9c1e3797.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49js105MHrz42tw X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.89 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.35)[0.353]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.88)[0.878]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.76)[0.758]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 06:55:01 -0000 On 2020-06-11 23:22, Polytropon wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:14:09 -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >> Interestingly, as I have just learned, when and if the user subesquently >> mounts the relevant partition, the corresponding `/dev/gpt/partname' node >> will, rather unexpectedly and magically, disappear until such time as the >> relevant partition is unmounted, whereupon it will reappear. >> 1) Is this behavior documented somewhere that I just failed to look at? >> If so, where? > > Interesting question - I would be interested in that, too. See Lucas, AF3E, p. 214 "GEOM Withering" [1]. David [1] https://mwl.io/nonfiction/os#af3e From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 07:20:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 374273319D8 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:20:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jsZJ12zFz43xM for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:20:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.138]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MUpCz-1jJ0Rn2VWr-00QheT; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:20:18 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:20:18 +0200 From: Polytropon To: David Christensen Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? -- Disappearing /dev/ nodes after mount Message-Id: <20200612092018.2da920b8.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <01fb8c1e-a9e8-816e-a2ef-2c45c721687c@holgerdanske.com> References: <86546.1591917249@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200612082224.9c1e3797.freebsd@edvax.de> <01fb8c1e-a9e8-816e-a2ef-2c45c721687c@holgerdanske.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:0ptV8t/TgUCfbCYkdIlSrbzgKRHLkOtr6QK97qhJ72CcKuSJuD5 1XbZ72IpqQcgjRCQNfEwxKBkX5f9OsVQXblt7FnHLMpfkuWBZCW/PWSscTGXsE+ilqKQH+r NSVfZ8GeFKykG2YqVLjgFgYwXzH2eR6npHEfi0pG0PMY3l+O8cq63gVwb855184jcL4ZUAm 46jZQHrKR/581BANaeXpg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:85LxGi9J11g=:ekM9eZFTBzWVR9Rhggfrf5 PQhXLuBXMwVms5UnzAa8y5qLrAAJP9iYxckZWYl/WnrqRPjsJQU86BS3ME4PpBeXi3wjDqHkQ LVKh/lDCRZKJx8OuoGsENzBrmAhg9tqG2F0Ol7/ahFlPJ4Owan4wCwxSd5hIAAXyCeZuxTBNq 9n5pp28yuZ/ujWEDrnKvRKan/UXL7BnCYHsyLcovCsWOkBOgOq/Ipy29rn68zvm+D+YXdXW/D c9QFJoNBFIzsErnRr5j7a8vvHIIEY8ui3F97pVKrAHn18pC1lT2WFkrVYaDnusDrk6bgQXTLP 0WD0m+4HTW4I/biyezNtDpRanFfZMYSvf6MsWh6gWpIX4/ijyKErVE3cPh/QIPgIMyIuWx4dz Xvan86GdoNgbnWWY6nAM+nV8kwN1kMgGQIfooEbyRh/l8cs+7h8eoxQGCEpLlNXH0fFWArD8I WCNmTtf/WXamWXJx53nsiVaYVsfiSfguzwpePRhQlEzJ+UMMNsLjV0u9n/fpBYVlGUYwVjCnP ZXZ8QKlgH/Qvb3x4UYliKBvbu3IzbniFbed1gfCPfPJ9FDbUFuzZou44rLN/n3Qc4sX44gbrt GMPMdfx7jkU7Q/uceXQR36U9lAH/ourR9aaU2GBPmFnYuXvMNqG/tuNRuYWAO4LGsqxrQpxSi b5heRazV18vBDeWplI8UmUc5pBehiXidkrkNFaHl9IwIwmBiOUwrJ2wtzdNnA6LY1iYJpivlz tqu1DojcGyqHzy/B7u/YiB6dkcsyUnNTXexDUACY3n+e367o90YZ163m37++o9AyAyKLwZ8jf djoP7QMiSG2tuxgiChdojDg+Oi/ZAngKt+xwTjw0KSSNjBWY+D2WL1TXXWgELsv5WlEWKxW X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jsZJ12zFz43xM X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.134) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.65 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.61)[-0.612]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.39.138:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.47)[0.467]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.40)[0.399]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:20:25 -0000 On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 23:54:55 -0700, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-06-11 23:22, Polytropon wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 16:14:09 -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > >> Interestingly, as I have just learned, when and if the user subesquently > >> mounts the relevant partition, the corresponding `/dev/gpt/partname' node > >> will, rather unexpectedly and magically, disappear until such time as the > >> relevant partition is unmounted, whereupon it will reappear. > > >> 1) Is this behavior documented somewhere that I just failed to look at? > >> If so, where? > > > > Interesting question - I would be interested in that, too. > > See Lucas, AF3E, p. 214 "GEOM Withering" [1]. Wow, thanks for providing the term. techn. "GEOM Withering", which leads to usable search results, for example: This GEOM names appearing and disappearing is the consequence of *GEOM withering. A GEOM can be used in three different ways: - reading - writing - with exclusive access The latter is the cause of GEOM withering: once a disk is mounted an exclusive lock is required to inform the other available GEOM providers that the disk is in-use. GEOM therefore withers the other disk available names, that results in the names to disappear from the dev filesystem. For more information see g_wither_geom(9) and geom(4) ORPHANIZATION example. Source: https://fluca1978.github.io/2017/10/05/FreeBSD-Wither.html And from that point, local documentation at "man 4 geom" says: ORPHANIZATION is the process by which a provider is removed while it potentially is still being used. [...] When a provider is orphaned, this does not necessarily result in any immediate change in the topology: any attached consumers are still attached, any opened paths are still open, any outstanding I/O requests are still outstanding. with an explanation of what happens, with additional info found in "man 9 g_wither_geom". Today I learned. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 09:03:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF961333D48 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:03:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from listac@nebelschwaden.de) Received: from mail.worldserver.net (mail.worldserver.net [217.13.200.38]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.worldserver.net", Issuer "EuropeanSSL Server CA 2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jvsB02XPz4C1K for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:03:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from listac@nebelschwaden.de) Received: from postpony.nebelschwaden.de (v22018114346177759.hotsrv.de [194.55.14.20]) (Authenticated sender: postmaster@nebelschwaden.de) by mail.worldserver.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EF73A255BA for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:03:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.16.37.5] (kaperfahrt.nebelschwaden.de [172.16.37.5]) by postpony.nebelschwaden.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B315DA7C0 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:03:22 +0200 (CEST) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: listac@nebelschwaden.de From: Ede Wolf Subject: Find out OS version and plattform? Message-ID: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:03:22 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jvsB02XPz4C1K X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of listac@nebelschwaden.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.13.200.38) smtp.mailfrom=listac@nebelschwaden.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.28 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[listac@nebelschwaden.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[217.13.200.38:from]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.192]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15657, ipnet:217.13.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.13.200.38:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.93)[0.926]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nebelschwaden.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.75)[0.747]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:03:27 -0000 Hi, is there a way to find out which version of FreeBSD was installed - and for what architecture, simply by mounting the disk? I am not talking about uname, where you have to be inside the os, but if you simply mount the root partition to another computer, where to look for these information? linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is there an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? grep -ir freebsd /mnt/etc did not reveal anthing, that might give a hint. Or I have overlooked this. Plattform would be more important than version, as latter one may at least be guessed by date. Thanks Ede From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 09:15:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82541334394 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:15:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000008080c.fee6cfd355ef14793fcb11e6d700543b@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jw6j3Jl6z4Cd3 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:15:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000008080c.fee6cfd355ef14793fcb11e6d700543b@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591953309; x=1594545309; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=ImKPYaR7nl0KRL4jiGj7q3pv3nmMJgFjXwukcAia3Bc=; b=o1/M8a7SL+/oCwY8mZ16hLAehT6QodEemvdAr3Xg8aKO7NfnKzvfkvhLLctomftGQYLxHe+6zLuVYeJHeGhNTvDorUNCeDxEn3Q0OB82fVPK8CBZp33I+XplbrAzMPDddO4qPHU2C7D3p2Bn2A01Pvh5V30ormwovhmww/7wqaI= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDAwODA4MGMuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:15:03 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:15:02 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jjfm8-0006zB-UO; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:15:01 +0100 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:15:00 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: listac@nebelschwaden.de Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? Message-Id: <20200612101500.f455a884199613961283ed48@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jw6j3Jl6z4Cd3 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=o1/M8a7S; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c2000008080c.fee6cfd355ef14793fcb11e6d700543b@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c2000008080c.fee6cfd355ef14793fcb11e6d700543b@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.64 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.989]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.957]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000008080c.fee6cfd355ef14793fcb11e6d700543b@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000008080c.fee6cfd355ef14793fcb11e6d700543b@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:15:10 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:03:22 +0200 Ede Wolf wrote: > Hi, > > is there a way to find out which version of FreeBSD was installed - and > for what architecture, simply by mounting the disk? If you mount it on FreeBSD then you can do something like this (taken from man freebsd-version). mount -rt ufs /dev/ada0p2 /mnt env ROOT=/mnt /mnt/bin/freebsd-version -ku You could inspect the sources of freebsd-version to find out how this is done. > I am not talking about uname, where you have to be inside the os, but if > you simply mount the root partition to another computer, where to look > for these information? The kernel version is pulled from the kernel, I'm not sure where the userland version is stored. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 09:21:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D723345B5 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:21:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jwG14dHXz4Cyp for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:21:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 863135C0116; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:13:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yuripv.dev; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=r 1lazG+Eqx0zZfzPQ6g04YD8dCK/6lvKHGiHbztHsAk=; b=hPKnW/6eIOoGznbfM +Gm5L450bFOlGUky4DPHXcR/CYQJGBHL0sPny/pwE3wHitUr207FczBbcdAnSrqZ 6DiZhLINRJJDFc7RIotKeiuFzOxKaWm9BsGremlKpQauxoHm2V6gsd3YRKe21Xb+ mxD6fHXm2XcOVLHJ7NbVEgqLXkqzaaO0UqnUgrT+3ZTZae2kZk5xW60q4B/qYewL PIWVUMNsFZ+wax1fdYYHbW8Ja5t9iMequz2LIATI0Xjn4YgQoQKU3/9OxUL4YX6r kKVxhscGEFbGuyqxZTZ4b9J+9YocAFfIYnRs2Tdiz2foFW6PdfasV/0qs/EdDUzq Ys4zQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=r1lazG+Eqx0zZfzPQ6g04YD8dCK/6lvKHGiHbztHs Ak=; b=d19F8sq6hQwGf8AgiqyfjC8cYBpHjIBM2+4N81cIIMyto2U0QJ8akHKZ8 fpro57VTCKsjFctIMkpVi8fe77htvvsyt2FKnErRVrylrIcFx7wImsQ/6+4CUBq3 BSiazev9omcid72NWpemH/w1Xr1PH0Kf8ezFn2lV99NrpNIr71RHQIvoHUKDT2Va o5MxdMIsmhwZdknB7vJ0uxXPATeceYom3BeQ6BLLT8vuQLT1JANKRmo2+sAgVgiy 7/DdUinCCwkdUTGSayJXniZMyirH2lfh6kcX5y+V7Yxi28xlwzU3sJ+/w4zMHVJ9 2juCD5TOQTSUJ+tbTVR4VAz2EqlkQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudeiuddgudehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpegjuhhrihcurfgrnhhkohhvuceohihurhhiphhvseihuhhr ihhpvhdruggvvheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepudeuffegtdehffdtffefkefhgfelie eitefghfeugeelfeduffegtdeufeekgfdvnecukfhppeeluddrvdegtddruddvgedrudef jeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeihuh hrihhpvheshihurhhiphhvrdguvghv X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.6] (unknown [91.240.124.137]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9334B328005D; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 05:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? To: listac@nebelschwaden.de, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 12:13:31 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jwG14dHXz4Cyp X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yuripv.dev header.s=fm1 header.b=hPKnW/6e; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=d19F8sq6; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yuripv@yuripv.dev designates 66.111.4.25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yuripv@yuripv.dev X-Spamd-Result: default: False [12.12 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:66.111.4.25:c]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[66.111.4.25:from]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yuripv.dev:+,messagingengine.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.64)[-0.636]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[66.111.4.25:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[91.240.124.137:received]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[yuripv.dev:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_CSS(4.00)[91.240.124.137:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.78)[-0.780]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yuripv.dev]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.64)[0.641]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:21:30 -0000 Ede Wolf wrote: > Hi, > > is there a way to find out which version of FreeBSD was installed - and > for what architecture, simply by  mounting the disk? > > I am not talking about uname, where you have to be inside the os, but if > you simply mount the root partition to another computer, where to look > for these information? > > linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is there > an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? > > grep -ir freebsd /mnt/etc did not reveal anthing, that might give a > hint. Or I have overlooked this. > > Plattform would be more important than version, as latter one may at > least be guessed by date. Try e.g. `file /mnt/sbin/init`: /sbin/init: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (FreeBSD), statically linked, for FreeBSD 12.1, FreeBSD-style, stripped That should provide the information you are looking for. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 09:21:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C57334833 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:21:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=A9Y3=7Z=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from mail.sermon-archive.info (sermon-archive.info [71.177.216.148]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jwGP5TLYz4D2l for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:21:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=A9Y3=7Z=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from [10.0.1.251] (mini [10.0.1.251]) by mail.sermon-archive.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49jwGD483pz2fjWD; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 02:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? From: Doug Hardie In-Reply-To: <20200612101500.f455a884199613961283ed48@sohara.org> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 02:21:40 -0700 Cc: listac@nebelschwaden.de, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <68061D36-1258-482F-9C10-7888F9DEC9CF@mail.sermon-archive.info> References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200612101500.f455a884199613961283ed48@sohara.org> To: Steve O'Hara-Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.101.4 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jwGP5TLYz4D2l X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=A9Y3=7Z=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info designates 71.177.216.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=A9Y3=7Z=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.06 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.972]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:71.177.216.148]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lafn.org: no valid DMARC record]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.977]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.713]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=A9Y3=7Z=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=A9Y3=7Z=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5650, ipnet:71.177.216.0/23, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:21:51 -0000 > On 12 June 2020, at 02:15, Steve O'Hara-Smith = wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:03:22 +0200 > Ede Wolf wrote: >=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> is there a way to find out which version of FreeBSD was installed - = and=20 >> for what architecture, simply by mounting the disk? >=20 > If you mount it on FreeBSD then you can do something like this > (taken from man freebsd-version). >=20 > mount -rt ufs /dev/ada0p2 /mnt > env ROOT=3D/mnt /mnt/bin/freebsd-version -ku >=20 > You could inspect the sources of freebsd-version to find out how > this is done. >=20 >> I am not talking about uname, where you have to be inside the os, but = if=20 >> you simply mount the root partition to another computer, where to = look=20 >> for these information? >=20 > The kernel version is pulled from the kernel, I'm not sure where > the userland version is stored. Do a more /bin/freebsd-version Right at the end of the initial shell comments is: # $FreeBSD: releng/12.1/bin/freebsd-version/freebsd-version.sh.in 325800 = 2017-11-14 10:15:17Z des $ set -e USERLAND_VERSION=3D"12.1-RELEASE-p3" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 09:26:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCCD9334937 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:26:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jwMf4BYzz4DJT for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:26:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.138]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1McY0J-1jDdaQ3gfF-00d0xy; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:26:20 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:26:19 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: listac@nebelschwaden.de, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? Message-Id: <20200612112619.0cb734ef.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200612101500.f455a884199613961283ed48@sohara.org> References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200612101500.f455a884199613961283ed48@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Vn5Vcpi2WoLMkOixDJot1U2NX66WLP5o31wFN/+xjgMtzmC3Jqb 3XnlAB/X4rQ4Kq+NSEnD+uXTmZ58vFfC3ae0kZ5wC7sSYC3UBfXr+2ZZj11Z9yIZtYscBDS zx+qiOzz5G6GKukJPuHPKheIuHqGl3sn6fF6SBm1cG2ooyAar8Zt4gz3YMOJ0e3ZSpr3oXJ t6oePhhiwY1JuZY4+24Cw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:2afHJ0YKRFE=:SlSl8A4E8LA119q2MagJsL 2nMfAaRpIPI9p/Ty3I94KeEkGZCSoYw65RT+VDoXO1RJf+jeImqb8x8sL221pd/FABWSR/JFg Td1iPpQ+bJxvgKWRT/RuvdfM/xqoHG22Slpar+wuGy+U59iLfXAIdCRu7VO1b+vKAltwsoV25 dCwo3TcUQwC+jBX6Yy/1+8op8QPhMqpWviPA9itPZgTAZw5MpisFKpSRstJ8phQ56tIh9yM6V gD/ln8kfqYBqvCD0BMc5ez0S5HGjQ9p+mcSUso/gP6E3rvfTRYa2B+lRYsuyUUO00ofvmrZPu 19VtBMNcKtFsDN+m/E84BQLUfowD4chSsl2/qctayr4JbL32AKY6f4XqAPEHlMSS8A2mw9Uw8 DQxlaXmkIuXuUZLPh8VLpPAkIVPcE5lKANF+cXtsJ+fBliCWvTaH3G+EhVrja3OFnBU5jRe4E bLQHa3sLgHRk40qbOxPCvLnkJhP3kLs1iCHwls7QE+SNGdG2cuW6sHC22wVzpdzvCZVLMyL9Y AtokuZVrOLbOH6L8sU7NaPSpN/l3iFFh3ogJKes6qc4j7TbXOHhj36UV2XBfVq+BEQcSJUoTu Ol8E0L44aZU/IwKZLr4rlnesQLKl1UL+/Z2OrLt02yWqKcAVCz54vyDtjSr1+ijETCaPyLOzp SYPTxrv8MA2lzYyGPAy0dmes+UQN9tZ8/EDMJnJStOe8d/oeeyZ5c/LAYssDey1dD49hD1n/4 2RBkr8lOCHg3OO6bIf0ULkxUHt0abKMooyD5bRdEYY0NX3wGjDVAVBFxxFQLMiK58NQFcbr7M Ws9mJiLCNNNtAA1CZwfhDC0cJYzGJi1S82sYjtX04OTVnGpyZYRbbfxgjMNp1J2cWycnwEX X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jwMf4BYzz4DJT X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.98 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.46)[-0.462]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.39.138:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.56)[0.562]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.48)[0.477]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:26:23 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:15:00 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:03:22 +0200 > Ede Wolf wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > is there a way to find out which version of FreeBSD was installed - and > > for what architecture, simply by mounting the disk? > > If you mount it on FreeBSD then you can do something like this > (taken from man freebsd-version). > > mount -rt ufs /dev/ada0p2 /mnt > env ROOT=/mnt /mnt/bin/freebsd-version -ku > > You could inspect the sources of freebsd-version to find out how > this is done. This does work for the same (or compatible) arch. > > I am not talking about uname, where you have to be inside the os, but if > > you simply mount the root partition to another computer, where to look > > for these information? > > The kernel version is pulled from the kernel, I'm not sure where > the userland version is stored. The kernel version could be "binary-grepped" from /boot/kernel/kernel, it starts with "@(#)FreeBSD", but freebsd-version uses a much more elegant approach, see /usr/src/bin/freebsd-version/freebsd-version.sh.in. Further magic happens in /usr/src/sys/conf/newvers.sh at build time. If, and only if, the installed source tree matches the OS version installed, the information can be found in that particular file (search for TYPE, REVISION, BRANCH at the top). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 09:31:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4415D334C26 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:31:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from listac@nebelschwaden.de) Received: from mail.worldserver.net (mail.worldserver.net [217.13.200.38]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (Client CN "*.worldserver.net", Issuer "EuropeanSSL Server CA 2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jwT84qwlz4Dsp for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:31:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from listac@nebelschwaden.de) Received: from postpony.nebelschwaden.de (v22018114346177759.hotsrv.de [194.55.14.20]) (Authenticated sender: postmaster@nebelschwaden.de) by mail.worldserver.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 60EA42563D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:31:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.16.37.5] (kaperfahrt.nebelschwaden.de [172.16.37.5]) by postpony.nebelschwaden.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC88DA7DB for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:31:03 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: listac@nebelschwaden.de Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> From: Ede Wolf Message-ID: <42230a23-4729-e1e4-5e4e-5a43928b733f@nebelschwaden.de> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:31:03 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jwT84qwlz4Dsp X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of listac@nebelschwaden.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.13.200.38) smtp.mailfrom=listac@nebelschwaden.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.20 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[listac@nebelschwaden.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[217.13.200.38:from]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.22)[-0.221]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15657, ipnet:217.13.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.13.200.38:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.91)[0.907]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nebelschwaden.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.71)[0.712]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:31:09 -0000 Thanks, good idea. Unfortunately it does not contain the version here, but at least the plattform. In addidion, I've found a /boot/mbr file and a CPUTYPE=i686 stanza in /mnt/etc/make.conf, so I am sure it is intel #file /mnt/sbin/init: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), statically linked, stripped @steve: Shame on me, but it has been mounted on a linux system. Upate: By chance /var/log/messages had the relieving entry: FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE #0: Thu Oct 6 22:31:38 CEST 2005 Can be so easy sometimes, if you are lucky. Thanks all! Am 12.06.20 um 11:13 schrieb Yuri Pankov: > Ede Wolf wrote: >> Hi, >> >> is there a way to find out which version of FreeBSD was installed - >> and for what architecture, simply by  mounting the disk? >> >> I am not talking about uname, where you have to be inside the os, but >> if you simply mount the root partition to another computer, where to >> look for these information? >> >> linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is >> there an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? >> >> grep -ir freebsd /mnt/etc did not reveal anthing, that might give a >> hint. Or I have overlooked this. >> >> Plattform would be more important than version, as latter one may at >> least be guessed by date. > > Try e.g. `file /mnt/sbin/init`: > > /sbin/init: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (FreeBSD), > statically linked, for FreeBSD 12.1, FreeBSD-style, stripped > > That should provide the information you are looking for. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 09:44:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A49334EF4 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:44:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from listac@nebelschwaden.de) Received: from mail.worldserver.net (mail.worldserver.net [217.13.200.38]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "*.worldserver.net", Issuer "EuropeanSSL Server CA 2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49jwmf215Pz4GC1 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:44:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from listac@nebelschwaden.de) Received: from postpony.nebelschwaden.de (v22018114346177759.hotsrv.de [194.55.14.20]) (Authenticated sender: postmaster@nebelschwaden.de) by mail.worldserver.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C17612564C for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:44:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.16.37.5] (kaperfahrt.nebelschwaden.de [172.16.37.5]) by postpony.nebelschwaden.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D59DA7F0 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:44:32 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: listac@nebelschwaden.de Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200612101500.f455a884199613961283ed48@sohara.org> <68061D36-1258-482F-9C10-7888F9DEC9CF@mail.sermon-archive.info> From: Ede Wolf Message-ID: <6652c5a3-d926-f8cc-a441-068f00de30a5@nebelschwaden.de> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:44:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <68061D36-1258-482F-9C10-7888F9DEC9CF@mail.sermon-archive.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jwmf215Pz4GC1 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of listac@nebelschwaden.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.13.200.38) smtp.mailfrom=listac@nebelschwaden.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.96 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[listac@nebelschwaden.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[217.13.200.38:from]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15657, ipnet:217.13.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.13.200.38:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.49)[0.489]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.93)[0.929]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nebelschwaden.de]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.74)[0.740]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:44:35 -0000 > Do a more /bin/freebsd-version Just for information, this does not work, freebsd-version seems to be too modern: # find /mnt/ -iname "*freebsd*" /mnt/etc/mail/freebsd.mc /mnt/etc/mail/freebsd.cf /mnt/etc/mail/freebsd.submit.mc /mnt/etc/mail/freebsd.submit.cf Side note, this search does not traverse into /usr, which was a seperate partition (and not mounted here). Same is therefore true for Polytropons ..src/bin/freebsd-version/freebsd-version.sh.in. src/sys/conf/newvers.sh is a bit contradicting to what /var/log/messages is proclaiming: TYPE="FreeBSD" REVISION="6.0" BRANCH="STABLE" if [ "X${BRANCH_OVERRIDE}" != "X" ]; then BRANCH=${BRANCH_OVERRIDE} fi RELEASE="${REVISION}-${BRANCH}" VERSION="${TYPE} ${RELEASE}" So it looks as if the source has been updated, but world not rebuild. Am 12.06.20 um 11:21 schrieb Doug Hardie: >> On 12 June 2020, at 02:15, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >> On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:03:22 +0200 >> Ede Wolf wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> is there a way to find out which version of FreeBSD was installed - and >>> for what architecture, simply by mounting the disk? >> >> If you mount it on FreeBSD then you can do something like this >> (taken from man freebsd-version). >> >> mount -rt ufs /dev/ada0p2 /mnt >> env ROOT=/mnt /mnt/bin/freebsd-version -ku >> >> You could inspect the sources of freebsd-version to find out how >> this is done. >> >>> I am not talking about uname, where you have to be inside the os, but if >>> you simply mount the root partition to another computer, where to look >>> for these information? >> >> The kernel version is pulled from the kernel, I'm not sure where >> the userland version is stored. > > Do a more /bin/freebsd-version > > Right at the end of the initial shell comments is: > > # $FreeBSD: releng/12.1/bin/freebsd-version/freebsd-version.sh.in 325800 2017-11-14 10:15:17Z des $ > set -e > USERLAND_VERSION="12.1-RELEASE-p3" > > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 10:16:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A195335BEB for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:16:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: from outgoing.tristatelogic.com (segfault.tristatelogic.com [69.62.255.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jxTD4ksZz4Hlc for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:16:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id CE8A34E751; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:16:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? -- Disappearing /dev/ nodes after mount In-Reply-To: <20200612082224.9c1e3797.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <90120.1591956974.1@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:16:14 -0700 Message-ID: <90121.1591956974@segfault.tristatelogic.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jxTD4ksZz4Hlc X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rfg@tristatelogic.com designates 69.62.255.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rfg@tristatelogic.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.60)[-0.596]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tristatelogic.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.66)[-0.662]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.18)[0.179]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14051, ipnet:69.62.128.0/17, country:US]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:16:17 -0000 Thanks to Polytropon for the responses. In message <20200612082224.9c1e3797.freebsd@edvax.de>, Polytropon wrote: >> 0) Am I the only one who has observed this specific behavior? > >No, it is normal and expected. OK, good. I find that it's always best to check if I am hallucinating. >> 1) Is this behavior documented somewhere that I just failed to look at? >> If so, where? > >Interesting question - I would be interested in that, too. As I said, after what was probably -not- an exhaustive search, I have not seen a scrap of documentation in any man page, or elsewhere, e.g. in the handbook, which documents the fact that certain device nodes which may be present under subdirectories of /dev may disappear upon a mount operation and then reappear once the corresponding filesystem is unmounted. >> 2) Is there a consensus that the magical disappearance of /dev/gpt/ device >> nodes during times when the corresponding partition is mounted represents >> a feature, rather than a bug? > >As I said, it's normal... "Normal" is in the eye of the beholder. If I -physically- remove a piece of hardware from a given system, then yes, in that instance I do expect relevant device nodes under /dev/ to likewise go away. Until today however, I was not aware that /dev nodes might automagically disappear under other circumstances, and frankly, the realization that they do was rather disconcerting, even if it does make a kind of sense, when viewed in a certain way. Now that I know the behavior is expected, I certainly shall not complain about it. It does in fact make a certain kind of sense, and I see the probable rationale. The lack of documetation on this behavior is however a clear trap for the naive and unwary, and should be rectified. Regards, rfg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 10:37:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D2D3362CF for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:37:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: from outgoing.tristatelogic.com (segfault.tristatelogic.com [69.62.255.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jxxb3GBQz4Jy4 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:37:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id 757074E751; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Makin' backups -- questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <90308.1591958242.1@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:37:22 -0700 Message-ID: <90309.1591958242@segfault.tristatelogic.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jxxb3GBQz4Jy4 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rfg@tristatelogic.com designates 69.62.255.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rfg@tristatelogic.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.50)[-0.498]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tristatelogic.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.60)[-0.598]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.03)[-0.031]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14051, ipnet:69.62.128.0/17, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:37:24 -0000 In message , David Christensen wrote: >On 2020-06-11 17:01, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >> I'm re-writing my backup scripts and could use a bit of advice. > > >I have used rsync(1) for backup and restore of data files for many years. So I am in good company. >But I very much doubt that an rsync(1) copy of a live system disk is >going to be correct. Oh it is "correct" alright... for some value of "correct". This is a single user system and when I am doing backups I am generally not otherwise actively using the system. Of course, it *is* running a mail server, other daemons, and god only know what else in the background (e.g. cron scripts). So you are essentially correct that I am making backups of moving targets. I am fully aware of that fact and it doesn't really bother me. Unless one is doing raid, one will not ever have a backup that is fully current to the current microsecond. But that's OK. Backups are useful, in emergencies, even if it means that you have lost all of the work you did for, say, the past 1 day or that past 1 week. That's still WAY better than losing all of your stuff back to the beginning of time! So yes, I make backups, on-the-fly, of "moving target" live filesystems. When and if I need any one of those full partition backups, it will containe enough good stuff so that I will be damn glad I had it, and that's enough for me. This is a home/work machine. I'm not doing anything irreplacable or mission-critical here. I'm not JPL, sending probes to mars. Neither am I running a savings & loan or a medical office here. >Excluding anything makes me even more incredulous. As I say, unless you are doing raid, every backup you have is something less than up-to-the-current-microsecond. what I have is good enough for my purposes. >AIUI the traditional Unix backup/ restore process is to shutdown the >machine, boot a live USB stick or move the source drive into another >computer, mount the source filesystem(s) read-only, and use dump(8) to >serialize each filesystem to a file. Restoration consists of preparing >a target device with a partitioning scheme, boot loader(s), slice(s), >partition(s), and/or filesystem(s), and then using restore(8) to >deserialize the files into the target filesystems. (See Clonezilla [1].) Yea. Exactly. That all sounds like great fun... NOT! (I *do* use Clonezilla for backing up my Linux and Windoze systems, BTW, because in those cases I routinely power them off anyway. I prefer -not- to power off my FreeBSD server system to make backups of its drives & partitions however. Call me lazy. I won't mind. >The simplest, but least efficient, backup method I have found for system >drives is to copy the device raw sectors to a file with dd(1) Too slow. rsync allows me to just update my backup drives incrementally, which is WAY faster. (My server has 3TB live. DD'ing all of that would take all night.) >1. dd(1) is a lowest-common-denominator tool... Believe me, this isn't my first rodeo, and I know what dd is and what it does. >2. I use MBR partitioning, to avoid problems with the GPT backup >partition table when the source and target device sizes differ. You're going to have to explain that one to me. What are these "problems" of what you speak? Regards, rfg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 10:42:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E16336B1A for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:42:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: from outgoing.tristatelogic.com (segfault.tristatelogic.com [69.62.255.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49jy3c4Tccz4KLy for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:42:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id A44BE4E751; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:42:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug or Feature? -- Disappearing /dev/ nodes after mount In-Reply-To: <20200612092018.2da920b8.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <90359.1591958555.1@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 03:42:35 -0700 Message-ID: <90360.1591958555@segfault.tristatelogic.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49jy3c4Tccz4KLy X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rfg@tristatelogic.com designates 69.62.255.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rfg@tristatelogic.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.59)[-0.591]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tristatelogic.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.66)[-0.655]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.15)[-0.147]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14051, ipnet:69.62.128.0/17, country:US]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:42:37 -0000 In message <20200612092018.2da920b8.freebsd@edvax.de>, Polytropon wrote: >Wow, thanks for providing the term. techn. "GEOM Withering", Yes, helpful to know that. >found in "man 9 g_wither_geom". > >Today I learned. ;-) So did I. But this behavior really should be documented in some additional man pages... in particular gpart(8) and possibly others... and not just in this one obscure man page for what I guess is a system call. Regards, rfg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 13:37:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC81B33A8D7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:37:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from 6.mo68.mail-out.ovh.net (6.mo68.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.63.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k1xl0C5fz4Wb5 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:37:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from player750.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.110.171.173]) by mo68.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7282316FD98 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:37:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from defert.com (ip-146-0-189-252.dyn.luxfibre.pt.lu [146.0.189.252]) (Authenticated sender: 20.100@defert.com) by player750.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BCD01343ACCD for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:37:43 +0000 (UTC) From: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Subject: Openness vs. Comfort To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:37:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 9594637533667526660 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudeiuddgieekucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuqfggjfdpvefjgfevmfevgfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecuhedttdenucenucfjughrpefhuffvkffffgggtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeggihhntggvnhhtucffgffhgfftvfcuoedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeltdeugeffteeiffejueehheekgeegudegtdehieeuueehhfefgeetkedvffetgeenucfkpheptddrtddrtddrtddpudegiedrtddrudekledrvdehvdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdqohhuthdphhgvlhhopehplhgrhigvrhejhedtrdhhrgdrohhvhhdrnhgvthdpihhnvghtpedtrddtrddtrddtpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepvddtrddutddtseguvghfvghrthdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehfrhgvvggsshguqdhquhgvshhtihhonhhssehfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhg X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k1xl0C5fz4Wb5 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=defert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 20.100@defert.com designates 46.105.63.100 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=20.100@defert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[46.105.63.100:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:mail-out.ovh.net]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.08)[-1.078]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.64)[-0.638]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[defert.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[46.105.63.100:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:46.105.0.0/16, country:FR]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:37:47 -0000 Hi, The "freebsd vs. netbsd" thread and its flame war about top posting made me think seriously about what I've perceived in the FreeBSD community over the last 9 months. My impression is that there are 2 sub-groups in the FreeBSD community, those wanting FreeBSD to dominate over Windows and Linux, and those wanting to keep every semi-colon in its set line and column forever. [ Deliberate exaggeration here, but posts on this mailing-list and on the forums seldom fall in the mid-range. ] I tend to think that this schism is caused by a lack of common vision. And without a vision, you have no criteria to make decisions, so you end up battling over and over with little results. With a vision, it would be easy to decide what is important and what is not, but there are a couple of obvious things that can be discussed already. 1. Why mailing lists? I assume all of you have perfectly healthy eyes. Great! Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text messages is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is not possible in the long term. However, as healthy as you may be, I've read complaints about the person recently posting from his smartphone - and yes, his messages were in effect as unreadable as the replies. But what purpose do these mailing lists serve? I've read several times they were the right place to meet developers, but this is mostly true for freebsd-current@ an freebsd-stable@, not this one. So in the end, this mailing list (freebsd-questions@) is just to be used when looking for help. Which means that at the time you need help, you must face additional difficulties, at least legibility and focus. So one should only use this list when not in need of high importance help. I don't know what you do when you have to solve a problem, but the first thing most people do is google for it. And what do you get when you google something? Links to web pages. Which mean that if answers given on this list had some value, they will be invisible to most people. So using a mailing list in 2020 is reserved to things of little or no value. Important things deserve a forum: they are visible (indexed by search engines), legible (web browsers accessibility features) and well structured (threads) so you can stay focused on what you're here for. 2. Linuxophobia / Linuxallergia If I were fully satisfied with Linux, I wouldn't be there. However, there are also good things in the Linux world that could inspire development decisions for FreeBSD. But many people in the FreeBSD community seem to suffer from severe Linuxophobia and/or Linuxallergia, throwing out the baby with the bath water. So what do we get in 2020? A ports collection with a huge dependency mess and unreliable package repositories that remove your applications when a build has failed. This could be admissible in the 90s, but not in 2020. When you report these issues, you're told "jail everything" or "use poudriere". Those who do so set strong barriers around FreeBSD. Using jails means every new user must learn a whole lot of things to use FreeBSD, even in irrelevant use cases. Using poudriere means learning even more + dedicating a machine to build your packages + waiting for as long as needed to build everything you need + fixing bugs + rebuilding. It means FreeBSD imposes on its new users a tremendous cost - a cost which is incurred only ONCE for each Linux distribution for the benefit of all its users. Linux distributions have fully addressed these issues 15 years ago and it is the bare minimum expected from a distribution. At least for this, Linux would be a good source of inspiration. And I know at least one Linux package management system released under the BSD license. The evolution of the IT landscape over the last decade shows a dramatic loss of appetite in more and more people for reinventing the wheel over and over. 3. Comfort and Openness FreeBSD has a great base system and a great text mode installer, but what's the point in installing it if managing applications is a mess and asking for help a curse? Obviously, what is privileged in the making of development decisions is the comfort of first time FreeBSD adopters. However, comfort is a great thing as long as it doesn't turn into rigidity. Conversely, life requires from a species a minimal interest in its environment and a minimal ability to adapt. There is a word for this: openness. Being open (or opening up) doesn't mean giving up on what matters to you. It just means you know quite well what matters to you and you feel safe considering what surrounds you, and use whatever out there you deem appropriate to take good and continued care of what matters to you. 4. And so what? Nothing. My sole purpose was to provide you with an insight of how FreeBSD and its community could be perceived by an outsider in 2020. I'm pretty sure it is of interest to some of you, it's the only reason I wrote this mail. But in the end, interested or not, what you do or don't do with this piece of information is yours, not mine. Vincent PS: These topics are not FreeBSD-specific, they apply to all BSD OS, the situation of the others is just much more degraded. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 14:06:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7438B33B730 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:06:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k2Zr3PNGz4YL1 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:06:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:06:26 -0600 References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <42230a23-4729-e1e4-5e4e-5a43928b733f@nebelschwaden.de> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <42230a23-4729-e1e4-5e4e-5a43928b733f@nebelschwaden.de> Message-Id: <115E8DB5-1795-4FD4-96DE-2F364454D59F@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k2Zr3PNGz4YL1 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.41)[-0.410]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.63)[-0.631]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.01)[-0.006]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:06:29 -0000 On 12 Jun 2020, at 03:31, Ede Wolf wrote: > FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE #0: Thu Oct 6 22:31:38 CEST 2005 Many answers abut questions about FreeBSD will not apply to a 15 year = old version. Especially not a -STABLE version. For future reference, it's probable you would have gotten more and = differing enamors had you mentioned this was probably a very old = version. --=20 you cannot code around infinite implementations of OCD -John C Welch From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 14:11:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C515033BB88 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:11:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k2hN1nh0z4YtL for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:11:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:11:14 -0600 References: To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <2EBE3243-0AAB-4672-91A6-3A6CC543A264@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k2hN1nh0z4YtL X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.65 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.45)[-0.450]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.61)[-0.615]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.11)[0.110]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:11:16 -0000 On 12 Jun 2020, at 07:37, Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> wrote: > My impression is that there are 2 sub-groups in the FreeBSD community, = those wanting FreeBSD to dominate over Windows and Linux, and those = wanting to keep every semi-colon in its set line and column forever. Neither of the groups you describe cover the majority of FreeBSD users. > [ Deliberate exaggeration here, but posts on this mailing-list and on = the forums seldom fall in the mid-range. ] Most posts are about using the current version of the OS, or a recent = version. The vast majority of posts are in no way evangelical. > I assume all of you have perfectly healthy eyes. Great! > Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text = messages is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is not = possible in the long term. Then you have a poor MUA. One of the points of plain text is that the = recipient can make it look exactly how they want. --=20 O is for OLIVE run through with an awl P is for PRUE trampled flat in a brawl From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 14:13:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFA8033BD01 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:13:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k2kn5Pdwz4Z7r for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:13:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id p20so10322317iop.11 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:13:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=W2U08kAo5AChGmjx66AjN8Ab6jhRQtd3AkGClOvo2mE=; b=ViabW0SpQ4E0tzyeIG0zlNppIBir+zRxRRWVO/7vuqrvyU7VG00Zt7ZTmp26Ma7+tx LPzzN6XPLIeSMrlwqrH3PRPY9yCEx20do02gvaxGLoHLuZzPhk5DC8ZSIS9MmjivjZyY gYXuDAJnwyhn/F96bEgI3muy9/qoYnP/KnhL7M2+BYjmMoJQqh9mqg89HFK7jfEAaEtJ kEMU79ERYOEB3v4X/Ws7uFEbTlYvSlQ2qP0VcUm4W6QlvHHfHL3ngBxhaBmgYlcauPRw cfeYPy51y6gtdIbpULl1IOPE1Nop5YmTdL0RlN0ZYAUhhIuiYw7fLsNSvmLmophLDSut GNSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=W2U08kAo5AChGmjx66AjN8Ab6jhRQtd3AkGClOvo2mE=; b=jgCA8K7u40Fns7lYcBCWDcqN1wA0YGFCD0PK86BUqkZiuX35By6Jmf95k/v8nIrZoU ydK6UPUajdO8retGNI2teEkgo4DTAIg4IzBwC2yAdWmQ50mynTcpqvcLnYD3P8awPXyH Djx3bRdX2epxbs1QbcTJryW3A6GCoPth5zmKM5SUyPb5MM8ujxuks3jUXiqRxBifJ/js Iu8qfoYQti4bR6CYjjOyZYN6n4Slol4bU+kmWQaQgx0ZY2VF7kLgA3RdiIt6BgSMuPrL U80p7BFGkdpS+dfadAotNaVT/rDlpjcZI8wwZM6g7rVCCdQAk2BQefqZ8BRiKpwbmbpt gsYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5314aQHJxxvU+giYXcb5wMuQVdkeCNyE0azbe71XP1NzzaiUgSIj p6wVsFHbkhJpZfq0PqCwouZ8jBqreOK2Y1HbqBTI4Xj6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyfEw7a4VU8vNoIBZVW97MIu1AqPFTj4riL1y6az/duiFYXgVEnlem+FGGye84IiiVPFP1c7Fmt4GKqEu/lt3k= X-Received: by 2002:a02:b704:: with SMTP id g4mr8409988jam.138.1591971200640; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 07:13:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:13:09 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort To: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k2kn5Pdwz4Z7r X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ViabW0Sp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.54 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.007]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.009]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.53)[-0.527]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:13:22 -0000 On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 9:37 AM Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> wrote: > My impression is that there are 2 sub-groups in the FreeBSD community, > those wanting FreeBSD to dominate over Windows and Linux, and those > wanting to keep every semi-colon in its set line and column forever. > I think that grouping is more a by product of why people use FreeBSD in the first place and there are really several main subgroups (overlapping) there: 1. Computer professionals vs. non-computer professionals (even if high end power users and/or "computer hobbyists", the second not being a professional because the food on their table and roof over their head does not indirectly require using computers per se) 2. Developers vs. end-users (computer professionals who do not write code used by other people as a part of their job count as end-users) 3. Server vs. desktop (you can of course be both but desktop only applies to those who use FreeBSD as the primary [or only] desktop OS) Please none of the above are meant to be a judgement on anyone's technical ability, just a classification of why you use FreeBSD. For example I am a professional (Java) webapp developer who uses FreeBSD as my only desktop machine. Note being a professional developer does not make me an enemy of open-source software as long people recognize some open source models (e.g. GPL) are incompatible with also making a living as a developer (and not a supplier or tech support or other technical services that just happens to use open-source stuff). Where is (this is based completely on what the people has said not what they do in reality) someone like Ralf is a non-professional desktop end-user or Valerie is a professional sysadmin (end-user) who uses FreeBSD solely as a server. > [ Deliberate exaggeration here, but posts on this mailing-list and on > the forums seldom fall in the mid-range. ] > > I tend to think that this schism is caused by a lack of common vision. > And without a vision, you have no criteria to make decisions, so you end > up battling over and over with little results. > Actually there is a common vision for the base system (ports are technically not a part of FreeBSD and thus not a part of what would need a common vision). Make a rock solid better than average performance kernel and maintain it with a rock solid set of tools and then to package the kernel and tools needed to maintain it into one coherent and unified package. Any other issues with aspects of the FreeBSD user experience that are outside of that definition are not FreeBSD's issue. > With a vision, it would be easy to decide what is important and what is > not, but there are a couple of obvious things that can be discussed > already. > > 1. Why mailing lists? > > I assume all of you have perfectly healthy eyes. Great! > Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text messages > is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is not possible > in the long term. > However, as healthy as you may be, I've read complaints about the person > recently posting from his smartphone - and yes, his messages were in > effect as unreadable as the replies. > You can always enlarge the font like my 50 year old eyes require. No matter what communications platform or desktop OS I use I would have to do the same so where is the issue? > But what purpose do these mailing lists serve? > I've read several times they were the right place to meet developers, > but this is mostly true for freebsd-current@ an freebsd-stable@, not > this one. > Mailing lists are most easier to archive and search the archives of then a forum (you can use offline tools to do it but with a forum you are stuck with whatever the forum software allows). > So in the end, this mailing list (freebsd-questions@) is just to be used > when looking for help. > Which means that at the time you need help, you must face additional > difficulties, at least legibility and focus. > So one should only use this list when not in need of high importance help. > This usually comes earlier than later in someone's use of a new system and thus not putting people off by yelling at them for non-obvious net-etiquette issues (like top-posting) is a sure way to kill FreeBSD in the long run (due to not enough new blood). > I don't know what you do when you have to solve a problem, but the first > thing most people do is google for it. > And what do you get when you google something? Links to web pages. > Which mean that if answers given on this list had some value, they will > be invisible to most people. > More often than not when I google a FreeBSD issue I get mailing list archives which are almost always more trustworthy then blogs or forum posts. > So using a mailing list in 2020 is reserved to things of little or no > value. > Important things deserve a forum: they are visible (indexed by search > engines), legible (web browsers accessibility features) and well > structured (threads) so you can stay focused on what you're here for. > In 2020 forums suck for any sort of information retrieval that is currently being discussed. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 15:36:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B7633DA8E for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:36:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k4b41KyDz4fXT for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:36:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.138]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MCbMx-1ja6xy3C8R-009d8I; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:36:46 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:36:45 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort Message-Id: <20200612173645.22d774a9.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:r+jtl8it8la+xqjKq1EF3Bj1d57BGWA+0yde8FDu2K2dpKPvzoh ZWP5n7Y+FyghMstdt1Qk5EmK8poaNwNI8wpc0whtrritJKV4u3WyD8DVjmxnW5G/HfeJa7U 8kSg+g/sEuVgKwL8UPegh2unJYT7GMr7OfoWqgQP1Tp2ZE1Z66Pf4X1a14mk/ytL/09xdhB WKgpgtnVzFGCJpiAIhtag== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:VKvWzNr/OE8=:3q40nmkjataHmLHs4Nc4pI MehSV97mj3S8P/EYRgVYoqpkinR5twLvpiBNsO3TY/GdPib15/4LEFZxtr/pq/+z6uyWcQJcQ yelQvB7ENa1pPSZI/BhYa/PUOYVDbYSNPJe4pvOz/yYCPrBp1DmprGseKg+gjF05V+5bYdcVw iHwuVvrCXOtNxQgHgy1DNjo60lnJ5WscYxOIJYmvZCKDledZonE9JejHRj2dnk4OrqXkZc8dp wQg/RyqadEB2erxeqNx3aFgI9pyToCe9317hR14uUjt+YB4qZdX7FRSUKrDPyBgsk+qFTofLZ yZy3hrqUa3JqhlxCuV7Ii1J81HrXFtC13qHLU8PFcGMsBaC67k5aIuRk8F2gM0VDV7Ab7M5rM LHIH4EEYm0bHR2hk6EuPZM68Jz/fhD3B6Xn8D3iuR1quhQSYrW8Q13+tvproR6auZsQhditZw gAQjPxZNBY7v8P1/DuXQ1AZXf8fCv7b1JdJJv3HktE6Zsj37OqZR60TLYGPoLLgo+G9KGWtNG FEadzIe2FfmrVaqN/zfnI1rBkajleffBXh6YdwHzIBWUlERI0ymeniQPRpmWq84u3gsArWNVD Tyd87yHO5XdR1Z9mATGkYRJf6R00URRH6CBuo06CADo4NeyLQi7fUv7PlbTKpRtOhZ6g9wSCm 8B+h834y9EFOtGn6zLrpznUsflrl3NFFpUrKEQtDd/RAbUBDWxTIb87FKW5G0pM9W9pPuoagc bZZypdxkYGho6RaLluaxX3063Ei7POneF7MWTJrh4saSwKye8uE26Kp70a/FAQ/1nIzth890f 0D6zHoWFPnJ+RMUDBAmw24cA0U4CtXf9lIyrhKny7/e1vPTtU+p4sJBdPRQhv6SXiuzGPNz X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k4b41KyDz4fXT X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.134) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.10 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.39.138:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.06)[0.059]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.12)[0.115]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.53)[0.526]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.134:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:36:49 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:37:42 +0200, Vincent DEFERT wrote: > My impression is that there are 2 sub-groups in the FreeBSD community, > those wanting FreeBSD to dominate over Windows and Linux, and those > wanting to keep every semi-colon in its set line and column forever. I don't know where you take that impression from, but in my experience, neither the FreeBSD community nor the mailing list participants seem to fit in one of those groups. In fact, I'd even say it's the exact opposite: Many FreeBSD users use Linux as well, or macOS, and some even use "Windows", and nobody insists on a non-changing world. The FreeBSD OS itself is proof for that. > [ Deliberate exaggeration here, but posts on this mailing-list and on > the forums seldom fall in the mid-range. ] Erm... no. :-) > 1. Why mailing lists? > > I assume all of you have perfectly healthy eyes. Great! I belong to the group of people whose eyes have seen better times. That's why I prefer mailing lists over web forums, for example, due to a simple fact: Any halfway decent MUA (and that applies for text-mode MUAs as well) can make the message text display so it's nice to read. Even a blind user can use the appropriate tools. Web forums tend to make it harder, because they either consist of CSS + JS that "knows better" (i. e., you increase the zoom in the browser, now the page doesn't render properly anymore), or they have such a bad look & feel that using them even with the aid of the settings in the web browser is a terrible experience. As mentioned many times, mailing lists offer the ability to use without registration. All you need is working mail. You don't have to be logged in (or even online) to read and write messages. I think this is a significant advantage over everything web-based. > Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text messages > is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is not possible > in the long term. What exactly is your problem? You know that X can (for decades!) zoom by pressing Ctrl+Alt+[+] and Ctrl+Alt+[-], and as I said, MUAs and even ye olden X terminals (xterm) have font size control. There are other tools that run on X to help, like screen magnifiers, and there are of course the application settings where you can choose a minimum font size and a preferred font size (and font face) for message text. That is a solved problem, I would say. > But what purpose do these mailing lists serve? > I've read several times they were the right place to meet developers, > but this is mostly true for freebsd-current@ an freebsd-stable@, not > this one. This is the "general questions" mailing list. It's often used as a first approach, because users here can direct you to a more appropriate list if needed. > So in the end, this mailing list (freebsd-questions@) is just to be used > when looking for help. > Which means that at the time you need help, you must face additional > difficulties, at least legibility and focus. Why are those _difficulties_? > I don't know what you do when you have to solve a problem, but the first > thing most people do is google for it. This is hard, because to a search engine, you cannot express a question. You can send strings, and more or less, weighted by relevance and money, the search engine returns "AND NEAR" results without understanding (!) what you're looking for. Terminology is another problem. When you write to a mailing list, the recipients are aware of the meaning of certain words, which in the broad context of a search engine, can mean much more, and the search engine takes that into mind and lists many false-positives (because the search matches "AND NEAR" for the words used). And now imagine program names that (by accident or by intention) match a "real life object". Sure, you will now say that people don't just search for one word, but again, the search engine "forces" them to form a query in a way that it leads to usable (!) results (which is different from "any results" - SRPs full of stuff with no value). > And what do you get when you google something? Links to web pages. > Which mean that if answers given on this list had some value, they will > be invisible to most people. There is an archive of the mailing lists, which can be searched through using any search engine, and in many cases, SRPs contain links to - guess what - web pages containing mailing list messages explaining how to solve a specific problem. There is no "the one source" for answers. Questions can be complex. Answers too. And as there is no "the one source", there is no "the one answer". A thing where mailing lists are great at is that you get answers or suggestions from real people in the same "time frame" as you are, not paid-for ad content that's already 5 years old and more or less says "buy our product". > So using a mailing list in 2020 is reserved to things of little or no value. Well, I wouldn't say that. If someone told the same about searching with google, it would be "the same kind of true": you find results with answers that no longer apply... > Important things deserve a forum: they are visible (indexed by search > engines), legible (web browsers accessibility features) and well > structured (threads) so you can stay focused on what you're here for. Technically, the mailing lists have those features. Visible: mailing list archives are on the web Legible: the MUA can display messages much better than what a web-based forum uses as predefined settings (which the user cannot change and which sometimes even fights the browser's settings) Structured: that's what the references in the headers are for; the structure is preserved in the content as well (and any decent MUA can sort by date or in thread view) > 2. Linuxophobia / Linuxallergia > > If I were fully satisfied with Linux, I wouldn't be there. > However, there are also good things in the Linux world that could > inspire development decisions for FreeBSD. Again, this happens all the time. Keep in mind that, if I may say that, most of the FreeBSD ports collection's content is software ported from Linux. Maybe you're confusing something: Looking critically at how things are done over in Linux world are sometimes claimed to be hostile, which they're not, because in a technical context, it's not "I don't like it", but "it's a bad idea because of reasons". > So what do we get in 2020? > A ports collection with a huge dependency mess and unreliable package > repositories that remove your applications when a build has failed. If you experienced _that_, you obviously must have done something inappropriate. I cannot image a realistic scenario where something like this would happen... > When you report these issues, you're told "jail everything" or "use > poudriere". > Those who do so set strong barriers around FreeBSD. You don't _have to_, but for certain things, it's suggested because, yeah, that's the building process these days, and it is because it solves more problems than it creates. Don't get me wrong, I have my own problems with that, but it's the logical thing to happen. > Using jails means every new user must learn a whole lot of things to use > FreeBSD, even in irrelevant use cases. Depends. Jails have their place, but they are not mandatory. > Using poudriere means learning even more + dedicating a machine to build > your packages + waiting for as long as needed to build everything you > need + fixing bugs + rebuilding. Again, this is not true. You don't have to dedicate a machine for that. With today's power even in cheap laptops and home PCs it is no problem to use the "everyday desktop" as "build server", to make a simplified claim. And fixing bugs is, on most cases, not a matter of the novice user. > Linux distributions have fully addressed these issues 15 years ago and > it is the bare minimum expected from a distribution. And the problem is not solved yet. :-) > At least for this, Linux would be a good source of inspiration. And I > know at least one Linux package management system released under the BSD > license. As you know, Linux (here: all the distributions) use different package management tools, whereas FreeBSD uses one: pkg. It's not perfect, but what is? It's improving, and definitely can do more than its predecessors (pkg_*). The ability to use software from modified sources as well as software from precompiled packages has certain implications, that's for sure, but the handbook and the FAQ address those requirements and explain what to do. > 3. Comfort and Openness > > FreeBSD has a great base system and a great text mode installer, but > what's the point in installing it if managing applications is a mess and > asking for help a curse? Both statements are not true. Application management with pkg is, compared to what other OS platforms can offer, good. There are of course cases where problems occur, for example, if you want to install software that cannot legally be packaged, so you _need_ to build from source, or if you want nonstandard build-time options. The system keeps track of your installed software, and depending on how much "non-standard" stuff you have, either Poudriere (I still have problems with that word!) or "pkg lock" is the answer. > Being open (or opening up) doesn't mean giving up on what matters to you. > It just means you know quite well what matters to you and you feel safe > considering what surrounds you, and use whatever out there you deem > appropriate to take good and continued care of what matters to you. Again in my very individual experience and interpretation, the FreeBSD community is one of the most open (according to your description) ones. Many things have changed over the years. Not every change was a good one, and welcomed by the community, and some things haven't arrived in FreeBSD yet (especially WLAN drivers) but the overall development of the system and the software-building infrastructure can be seen as improvement. It is _different_ from how things are done in Linux world, of course, but using a different approach does not mean it is an inferior (!) approach. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 15:45:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E94A33DD5C for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:45:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49k4md2hXHz4frN for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:45:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.139.59]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A19524E652 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:44:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 10:44:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k4md2hXHz4frN X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.07 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.139.59:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.33)[0.329]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.88)[0.878]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.76)[0.761]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:45:06 -0000 On 6/12/20 8:37 AM, Vincent DEFERT wrote: > Hi, > > The "freebsd vs. netbsd" thread and its flame war about top posting made > me think seriously about what I've perceived in the FreeBSD community > over the last 9 months. > > My impression is that there are 2 sub-groups in the FreeBSD community, > those wanting FreeBSD to dominate over Windows and Linux, and those > wanting to keep every semi-colon in its set line and column forever. > > [ Deliberate exaggeration here, but posts on this mailing-list and on > the forums seldom fall in the mid-range. ] > > I tend to think that this schism is caused by a lack of common vision. > And without a vision, you have no criteria to make decisions, so you end > up battling over and over with little results. > > With a vision, it would be easy to decide what is important and what is > not, but there are a couple of obvious things that can be discussed > already. > > 1. Why mailing lists? > > I assume all of you have perfectly healthy eyes. Great! > Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text messages > is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is not possible > in the long term. > However, as healthy as you may be, I've read complaints about the person > recently posting from his smartphone - and yes, his messages were in > effect as unreadable as the replies. > > But what purpose do these mailing lists serve? > I've read several times they were the right place to meet developers, > but this is mostly true for freebsd-current@ an freebsd-stable@, not > this one. > > So in the end, this mailing list (freebsd-questions@) is just to be used > when looking for help. > Which means that at the time you need help, you must face additional > difficulties, at least legibility and focus. > So one should only use this list when not in need of high importance help. > > I don't know what you do when you have to solve a problem, but the first > thing most people do is google for it. > And what do you get when you google something? Links to web pages. > Which mean that if answers given on this list had some value, they will > be invisible to most people. > > So using a mailing list in 2020 is reserved to things of little or no > value. > Important things deserve a forum: they are visible (indexed by search > engines), legible (web browsers accessibility features) and well > structured (threads) so you can stay focused on what you're here for. > > 2. Linuxophobia / Linuxallergia Disagree. I did flee Linux, but only for servers. Desktop/laptops and number crunchers I support are still Linux. > > If I were fully satisfied with Linux, I wouldn't be there. > However, there are also good things in the Linux world that could > inspire development decisions for FreeBSD. > But many people in the FreeBSD community seem to suffer from severe > Linuxophobia and/or Linuxallergia, Huge turn made by Linux when systemd and friends were pushed down our throats will excuse the above feelings of those who do have them. > throwing out the baby with the bath > water. > So what do we get in 2020? > A ports collection with a huge dependency mess and unreliable package > repositories that remove your applications when a build has failed. Disagree. Even though port collection shouldn't be confused with FreeBSD system, it still is great in my book. I maintain FreeBSD servers for multiple years, and services are based on potrs originally, and on packages now; and those ports that do not have resembling packages (there usually is reason for that), and those which I need built with different options compared to what pkg is built with I build with poudriere. I did not observe grave failures here, occasionally you need to do a bit of work and use a bit of brain, and that has been a routine thing when ours was almost exclusively Linux shop, and is now when most important stuff runs under FreeBSD, > This could be admissible in the 90s, but not in 2020. > > When you report these issues, you're told "jail everything" or "use > poudriere". It is a fact of life that if you attempt to make big enough collection of things installed, you imminently bring dependencies that will contradict each other. E.g., by installing binary or library with the same name into the same place. Now, can anything be done about that, and will it be reasonable to attempt? Let's first compare with excellent Linix distro: RedHat Enterprise Linux (RHEL), or its "binary clone" CentOS. What you can install from main rpm repository virtually never has problems. It is possible, because main repository has really small number of packages - I didn't count, but I bet ports tree has an order of magnitude larger count. And to acieve that RedHat puts into it a lot of work, even though the collection is not large. Is it reasonable to exect the same from FreeBSD ports collection? No, it is not in my opinion. First, logistically, ports are independent, maintained usually by different maintainers, and who is to arbitrate which of the ports should change what it produces in case of conflict. And with ports come and go (you might notice ports deprecation) how it can be judged which port is to stay for long, and hence is more important if arbitration is done? All in all, ports (and packages) as they are are excellent means to build what you want your machine to be. With FreeBSD you are much more flexible. But to enjoy that one has to accept some need to do work and thinking. If one aims at "no effort" installation, then "turn key" products are more reasonable for consumption. Such can be MacOS, RedHat Enterprise Linux, and varioety of "signe task" boxes such as wireless routers, "hardware" firewall boxes etc. They all need little to no effort (and some are based on the same FreeBSD, other may be on OpenBSD or Linux). But they have really restricted function, the one that one was put together for. > Those who do so set strong barriers around FreeBSD. > > Using jails means every new user must learn a whole lot of things to use > FreeBSD, even in irrelevant use cases. > Using poudriere means learning even more + dedicating a machine to build > your packages + waiting for as long as needed to build everything you > need + fixing bugs + rebuilding. New user can begin without that. > > It means FreeBSD imposes on its new users a tremendous cost - a cost > which is incurred only ONCE for each Linux distribution for the benefit > of all its users. > Linux distributions have fully addressed these issues 15 years ago and > it is the bare minimum expected from a distribution. > At least for this, Linux would be a good source of inspiration. And I > know at least one Linux package management system released under the BSD > license. With thins big statement one will think that it will be counter productive to give you different arguments. Sound like you have arrived at your decision. It is Linux for you. With that in mind the why this your post? With the goal to start new flame war? Should I have guessed that from that nice subject? > > The evolution of the IT landscape over the last decade shows a dramatic > loss of appetite in more and more people for reinventing the wheel over > and over. > > 3. Comfort and Openness > > FreeBSD has a great base system and a great text mode installer, but > what's the point in installing it if managing applications is a mess and > asking for help a curse? Making statement "is a mess" is objectional. It is not for majority of people, and as it is mess for ytou, it must be something about you, not about system. I'm starting to think that I have already talked to you on this list, only you were behind different email address then. > Obviously, what is privileged in the making of development decisions is > the comfort of first time FreeBSD adopters. > However, comfort is a great thing as long as it doesn't turn into rigidity. > Conversely, life requires from a species a minimal interest in its > environment and a minimal ability to adapt. > There is a word for this: openness. > > Being open (or opening up) doesn't mean giving up on what matters to you. > It just means you know quite well what matters to you and you feel safe > considering what surrounds you, and use whatever out there you deem > appropriate to take good and continued care of what matters to you. > > 4. And so what? > > Nothing. > My sole purpose was to provide you with an insight of how FreeBSD and > its community could be perceived by an outsider in 2020. > I'm pretty sure it is of interest to some of you, it's the only reason I > wrote this mail. > But in the end, interested or not, what you do or don't do with this > piece of information is yours, not mine. That is nice "detached" attitude. Indeed, BSD descendants can be percieved like that by some people. And the same as such people exist, there exist people for whom Linux is perceived quite similarly. That is not a big secret: in large enough number of people one can find the whole spectrum of opinions abut any given thing. There is one thing though: some opinions have no grounds at all. Some may have some grouds as person tried something, but didn't find what expected, like your case probably. Some do have grouds after long use and constant putting effort into making things work to one's needs, and realizing how much one may still need to learn. ==== I hope, this your post (neither my replies) starts new flame war on the list. We really have better things to do. But alas, FreeBSD lists do not even require to sign up to post (now tell me about openness!), so anyone can start anything on FreeBSD lists. ==== Valeri > > Vincent > > PS: These topics are not FreeBSD-specific, they apply to all BSD OS, the > situation of the others is just much more degraded. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 16:44:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA48F33F25E for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:44:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k64p0Js1z3VZD for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:44:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: ribnnxIVM1k74UAVuWWds0hBWpPypmMhQ0lARyUN6ByMMZMAGMYind.6WMk1xKF fpENVNssYbjBscyTV3jzPR4FyKoLiOwPRA_7eFeO00tghO3P1y3g1HgvjPxw8YGWTGtwnWT9twgT HOMfxP98WMUz4Pfn9.LnZkE0YGDR0aXTBNCpSZoV1ULa1.9jplA6rc3tqYHKHwQYw2m3EMiVpeat xcpEhKDiurGwELpY9eNGNSTBdE35YmQ8dMFqSozAGN59dU8VpoVgZSPyHXdegyOBW4keDm8nvhDw R7.O84YiTArQ.fz_QfEGmxAWAjdr._Ukp4tMpU263aS.kV5KQ.8piRKE2viRXMsSplvBW5cQ5sNj ifniuuv5Usn9xQJqbzVY_Bi7gN62bedy04hlDZRIY.b.TqWHmkFmZIvqmvC2sy4iDVa_c3vGgzGR AjWzOxZfMr.PLEHCq_H0xAVaKUULvBOmGhRbs6vGrjgJsTIXKexQdtydrZkS.EunyuWRRz53WkVh ctM7ZsT4XzwSKKuYz0TICjXFKP1T2Vq7Yt4RHE1WRsYKK_wqOYHVJZonL5Y4jGv21.K5XK1F4_ir sPjQsxgkNUzwZcqWvULHiqEHak7z..2y3uCKbrpwVNkPRyFoA_JTZTj.OfZZS5UnXlHHLhu8Mxek 2Y86.o3sWu2l7tlsCHQDDPXRHmBXtpvPGqSrBTYaICONGQjIQuCc3405XEbKGrsw5tjOXIJqRzrl BW4SVcxQt2SxfBhlOA_cWduUcqb2i8hsUglcydmQt8_Jhve4RVcRaV7zWhGrWSlBsPDGDodwY.n9 xkd2EuDJf8WgUTuDakobU87c05w44SQ4WD8J3TVjZxRRMqcl504RFFTECfcoubtLjHWIN2yFyY4m jo3yrMoGgfMA6PTcLgX0EO49iR7BMAo61ruG3cBUmAyGMmKbSUZGoIRh3QdMn9MipGoc6oNWSqDq Qxoam12z0umUSaBKThXz8CrpxRCwuMvtiQ1xxXFjL9qfv5PIotEzCSerGGVQvltVbIZjfG48E5o9 mM_DemgMYY1EIAdTtpQzJSqsuilVcx206r88jGlSYOvBHbdYJrI9K4b4nKX9Apk9RMFI9993KvJc Rgk4sxo8XNs9H1M.TMv5WbYScDxSQmlgohv67hVKpkmjOhf9fnVQWiG.lNByhaXsKGMUtGKpRFJI F1A8HVtQaxAmK0CH2HbWgwP0rU13PjLwf04n6Zvt3zfUW_qIVC4CxKrYNSnGRg8WEtRK.NHH61Z. QyeCsz4PY44mVLKXGh294yQSLURfWMoGWhyUJJYo9idIE3p0hV3FPwGFMw1pgITgxz7Hgopz_eFm jGKOk7i.QN3zTOEB96AEN1lP4xDZQaxiTm7XXRqmozvC3UKN2ZPAACH99.E7CeR4msrsLOR6HmO9 WO9UWxL4- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:44:07 +0000 Received: by smtp427.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f8f03b8a11e9cdb4b67557bac8f4d6ad; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:44:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:44:04 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort Message-ID: <20200612184404.5fac9c85@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200612173645.22d774a9.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200612173645.22d774a9.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k64p0Js1z3VZD X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.88 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.176.206:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.41)[-0.414]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.981]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.176.206:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:44:11 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:36:45 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:37:42 +0200, Vincent DEFERT wrote: >> Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text >> messages is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is >> not possible in the long term. > >What exactly is your problem? You know that X can (for >decades!) zoom by pressing Ctrl+Alt+[+] and Ctrl+Alt+[-], >and as I said, MUAs and even ye olden X terminals (xterm) >have font size control. There are other tools that run >on X to help, like screen magnifiers, and there are of >course the application settings where you can choose a >minimum font size and a preferred font size (and font >face) for message text. That is a solved problem, I would >say. The font rendering of the email preview/view windows and the editor window could suffer from a font rendering, that is different from the the rendering of all other fonts. Sylpheed and Claws don't suffer from this issue, but Evolution does. You could use Ctrl+[+], Ctrl+[-] and Ctrl+0 (without the Alt-key) to resize the fonts in Evolution preview/view windows, but not in the editor window, however on my machine they are still blurry, even if they are larger. Evolution allows to chose other fonts as the rest of the system does use, so a user could chose any plain text font (s)he would use when formatting a HTML mail. Off-topic: Two times I changed my email address for this list by the web interface. Mailman claimed the changes are submitted and there's no confirmation mail in the spam folder. I'm not allowed to post to this list using the new address. If this mail should come through, the old address is kept. Any ideas? I'll try changing the address via email later. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 16:46:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2582233F877 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:46:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k67J2MdDz3VLr for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:46:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id c71so8755857wmd.5 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:46:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pe4zO7JjI6lPqoJJH6qhceZFp4DJvIbiRitDwj1JyrU=; b=tYeCyml43yWXKi4tBqI/obGFTulOaqKbgyDc9gS4vU3z9vvr6wo4tMFirVThylgHWa pDLNJVRjCsGr9jP03IdyQfspi4LV6c1AQIFn7nu80aM2L7UAWUR8r9J0H7hfIBcmD8fz j1ii3QD7YBX1s6uBJPZXYVgj8ocl+dx5T0EsQJLhu6aT0aqrQN2YDd5Unu97iZqp7nPi dIr7puJ7CeH8Svb7TbA+ETREOg+YXwyPSLsEttdC7vQta0fDJTPAbZCCrLF/xTIGkbU5 ptv5zCpmLfFkAmfhBcWW/dN5UsgIrkeOQItHiFHOD7S8mdPkPSmwE2sWrJJ3sE74zfOg kg7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530c0m5kITxxbd2n7fePtTq4PlaigquVDM2c5tJCiV30kyidPEjZ bK/DhxBob3wpSqQwCn4xmzVn6PMx X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzU92OLyFa54vz96SSvM05FHGsXW0SvEvkfbEUXaQ8O7CBnSrodKYyEJaSqMbtodW8cDvUcDQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:e914:: with SMTP id q20mr13742157wmc.145.1591980378299; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([2.222.66.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p16sm11633886wru.27.2020.06.12.09.46.17 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 12 Jun 2020 09:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:46:16 +0100 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort Message-ID: <20200612174616.0db9e2ce@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k67J2MdDz3VLr X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.18 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[googlemail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[2.222.66.16:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.005]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.023]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[googlemail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[googlemail.com,quarantine]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::330:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.15)[-0.151]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[googlemail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:46:21 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:37:42 +0200 Vincent DEFERT wrote: > I don't know what you do when you have to solve a problem, but the > first thing most people do is google for it. > And what do you get when you google something? Links to web pages. > Which mean that if answers given on this list had some value, they > will be invisible to most people. The mailing lists are archived on various websites that are available to search engines. In my experience hits on these are more reliable than information on websites. Howtos quite often contain bad advice that goes uncorrected. Forums are similar, but they are fragmented across different websites, and in my experience they are of lower quality. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 16:47:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552A933FA12 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:47:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic311-31.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic311-31.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k68m37YDz3Vl1 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:47:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: 5NdTrjoVM1lkjBsLvYM0aOvyh2JO8mpE8tMhE7gHfvmREFy2oWRBpyi_VG7ohrd K5JZ5DtIPwxpSK.jyd_qmwx.zHwYaRk6JRHVh7VA6YOPDotqGXJANW7akvjJqhXd_xXDBaeNd50J OzOwqKpb_pAwPrvQpe_RAxeloJhU_qiIWPA6RN470FxUJBLP1We5HuZLu7hWAekKV9Www22bK_Vw kVYNs3ujU6lpUnLFcRp4xuHWp3SDM8v2paIkHLcbYVEfZVBOVXu6EfLl0_qx0RNiYSZRnPqEHnIR XTwS_fNHUWaWYIwyDeowxmmg1LcPZPryV_UJljivd_U3TmaXSNUo14O8SFGcF55yMe3QHEOQCsf3 EesCpmNotAFvq3I4s4osWoxGYsSkqkrNWHbI5zrivyOZfhl2QsBtbrRYbDY1yCcqyACvMv0Im8ZP gO7.bDEEsACiEpsnTXWwnGrLv._qD8BTK0W56UGJx92gniwKgNh4RXos0Nv7FpSE_1Sz8H5v57ty .E9BKrGE0iday7VdJfl9lVatvNvECXZo7bd6KgWYRAdVnvJBjh3DFdVhr0h3UNG49hRdQG6ZKeYq 3FuKuLVZiIxibx8TgeGeIkmFpO4yzKp7B77ahiojwl0kUK5OXdDp6rkUjB7GBcvKIZcV4rOvedQk Rb68OMs5.LUCKSv.dgNANFUdUmHse9XpqxzYhh6.FCeM1SOW4FdoLt8KTQ_IhTqxjDmmy5.dbjvb etMJoR09Vm5818SiqAHt2te55WMR7yIBykFTph79KMpwtovYiwLLtmtJQKztX3bkN_N.gNL13815 sueHSscAUSYkn6DnsEhfA.VVOCKulDgCi9L_J94r5GgyVbP3bVPFkXf1Ip8MWmFd81e0TIBI7LmZ Hms1phUU.nrEbyUbyTJdjiXT5xzZ_Oasa1czy_cQNtMpVjjzIQSLdq1AFgBKX3JZ_2xwZpTJKnQI pHOkyidqh1gtSBOyRRr6mzwZuRYUMcsIuqYcE7e7dM765_y3EgPpXtO_gGleSrzg2lqaEqoFqw1s 72U9wTeKWA84JMh5zJE3gVDohQDVfnR6bZ.XYRgpQ38PO_zPwMmzhNgU.BUvS.l0S2VSolmowgfM 6jft9dPa6MtoVDdVc1Cr33GkWxB.QMkGS_17Y.1Ss1J11OttI_L2TaFOgVc6XSW7tCjlC4jQI0Oc tWoC9j7E2NviLV5efyLJ03QxLobw0xcqEHx.9KfRMN7SSBEN8ZaBiuFZYiZmlDlQ8TB1j9PW2iBg eadtxK6TFCWkAfnL4mgpo44xbXKNc0kddNIav1E5m2bbGGVptnpy5Xf0q3kMpP_MnjZYEdTFLX_P N6aHCC2vPe4eHB3F4brgZ3IylMpPktXB0dIaLpxk11We2uwkB4IU- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:47:34 +0000 Received: by smtp427.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 12ff1a16ef7b127b4b55dc5c39a930b3; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:47:31 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:47:31 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort Message-ID: <20200612184731.3922b664@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200612184404.5fac9c85@archlinux> References: <20200612173645.22d774a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200612184404.5fac9c85@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k68m37YDz3Vl1 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.89 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.176.163:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.42)[-0.420]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.176.163:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 16:47:37 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:44:04 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >Off-topic: > >Two times I changed my email address for this list by the web >interface. Mailman claimed the changes are submitted and there's no >confirmation mail in the spam folder. I'm not allowed to post to this >list using the new address. If this mail should come through, the old >address is kept. > >Any ideas? > >I'll try changing the address via email later. PS: FWIW I've got a very high bounce score. Sorry, for hijacking the thread. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 17:17:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB953401D3 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:17:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from contact@evilham.com) Received: from yggdrasil.evilham.com (yggdrasil.evilham.com [46.19.33.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k6pt4ZtVz3XnB for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:17:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from contact@evilham.com) Received: from yggdrasil.evilham.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by yggdrasil.evilham.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49k6pl02BbzypB for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:17:03 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=evilham.com; h=from:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=mail; bh=q5/643EyFNJFwgPjVxOx+7VHdwE=; b=tVaaqZ fUj5Aur5hEJzS5GWUyGCUCUr7Js6AkDSwVCk2VWyvT/nc+h4+dgWiEHr745Y41vA NWYPaLuwx4dS23ephF6Gp5mddqDol3mMu6na69pvHtZV2XCNma0T9Y1H0qWm+Re7 H/jm0zus+6A3MGRNTjbTUHDl94Hvmt8mi4YNc= Received: from yggdrasil.evilham.com (unknown [IPv6:2a0a:e5c1:121:1::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by yggdrasil.evilham.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49k6pk2rSjzyp9 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:17:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Evilham To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort References: In-reply-to: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:16:55 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k6pt4ZtVz3XnB X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=fail (headers rsa verify failed) header.d=evilham.com header.s=mail header.b=tVaaqZ f; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=evilham.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of contact@evilham.com designates 46.19.33.155 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=contact@evilham.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.79 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.005]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.979]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_DKIM_REJECT(0.00)[evilham.com:s=mail]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[evilham.com:-]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[evilham.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.01)[-0.006]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW_WITH_FAILURES(-0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:196752, ipnet:46.19.32.0/21, country:NL] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:17:11 -0000 On dv., juny 12 2020, Vincent DEFERT wrote: > My impression is that there are 2 sub-groups in the FreeBSD > community, > those wanting FreeBSD to dominate over Windows and Linux, and > those > wanting to keep every semi-colon in its set line and column > forever. I rarely reply to these threads because they just aren't interesting to me, but I perceive your message to be well-meaning and thought out; so this is an exception. Note that, indeed, this means that I don't fall in the categorisation you describe, but also it is true that there are some vocal people who could sometimes match those. Just in case you are curious: I subscribe to freebsd-questions@ because sometimes there are questions that I've had myself, and sometimes someone answers them; sometimes someone asks something, and I happen to have come across the answer before, so I save them some time; or sometimes I read something and it proves useful to "future me" after some time. The occasional flamewars are just a human by-product. > 1. Why mailing lists? > > I assume all of you have perfectly healthy eyes. Great! > Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text > messages > is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is not > possible > in the long term. Mailing lists are accessible if you use the right tools. As an example, Debian's previous Project Leader was blind and you could hardly tell by his engagement (which also happens mostly Mailing Lists). Alternative ways to have this kind of interaction would likely go in 2020 through some web interface that decides how things are supposed to look like and more often than not do not take into account accessibility or do a subpar job at it; on a mailing list: your mail client decides the visuals. Managing email efficiently is something achievable, having 100+ platforms to check... isn't. So, there are some cases in which mailing lists are just the right tool. That being said: there are also support forums :-) if that fits your workflow better, give it a go! However investing time in a decent mail client pays off very quickly, specially if your vision is somehow limited. > 2. Linuxophobia / Linuxallergia > > If I were fully satisfied with Linux, I wouldn't be there. > However, there are also good things in the Linux world that > could > inspire development decisions for FreeBSD. I think most people relate to this. Linux has good things, so does FreeBSD, and OpenBSD, and NetBSD, ... However on any big enough group of people, you'll find those who feel like showing that "X is good" means showing that "Y is bad"; and those who feel like saying that "X is bad at A" means that "X is bad". In this case you shouldn't make the mistake of extrapolating what some people say. > A ports collection with a huge dependency mess and unreliable > package > repositories that remove your applications when a build has > failed. > This could be admissible in the 90s, but not in 2020. > > When you report these issues, you're told "jail everything" or > "use > poudriere". > Those who do so set strong barriers around FreeBSD. There are some valid concerns there, and AFAIK most are being worked on. Someone else already mentioned why ports on FreeBSD are different than, say installing from a deb repository, and that's sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. It's just different and can probably be improved, but comparing these things 1-1 is not fair or constructive, because they work fundamentally different. Also, just as a note, it is significantly easier to use poudriere (I use it locally for, e.g. drm-kmod on my laptop) than it is to manage custom software in other systems. I've been prey of thinking "woah that must be hard" and then setting it up and realising "huh, it's actually simple and cute". > The evolution of the IT landscape over the last decade shows a > dramatic > loss of appetite in more and more people for reinventing the > wheel over > and over. I would argue the opposite :-D. But that's just my experience; yours may differ, and that's fine. Generalising is tricky terrain. > 3. Comfort and Openness > > FreeBSD has a great base system and a great text mode installer, > but > what's the point in installing it if managing applications is a > mess and > asking for help a curse? This shouldn't be the case, and if it is in your use-case, the best way to keep that from happening is to document the issues and raise awareness. I expect e.g. CURRENT to be rough around the edges when it comes to the ports tree, but it's not unbearable; and the quarterly branch for RELEASE / STABLE shouldn't have these issues, the latest branch can have some of those issues, but that's why it's latest. > Being open (or opening up) doesn't mean giving up on what > matters to you. > It just means you know quite well what matters to you and you > feel safe > considering what surrounds you, and use whatever out there you > deem > appropriate to take good and continued care of what matters to > you. FWIW: I've found the FreeBSD community in general to be extremely open and welcoming if you are just open to understanding how "it" (both the community and the OS) works. > 4. And so what? > > Nothing. > My sole purpose was to provide you with an insight of how > FreeBSD and > its community could be perceived by an outsider in 2020. > I'm pretty sure it is of interest to some of you, it's the only > reason I > wrote this mail. > But in the end, interested or not, what you do or don't do with > this > piece of information is yours, not mine. Someone already mentioned, but: you may want to take a look at Linux communities with a slightly more critical looking glass if you aren't already. Just as you may be noticing some not-so-wonderful behaviours around here, you may be overlooking similar behaviours "over there". Conversely, there are wonderful people around everywhere, and our biases may make us not notice that. > PS: These topics are not FreeBSD-specific, they apply to all BSD > OS, the > situation of the others is just much more degraded. They apply to every big enough group of humans, sadly :-). The nice thing though is that all of these Operating Systems cover different needs, and while for some people one OS may fit all their needs, for others, it is using each OS where they are specially strong that works out. I hope this email wasn't your way of saying "so long and thanks for all the fish", good things happen with constructive critique. Cheers, -- Evilham From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 17:57:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398EC340FD0 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:57:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k7jw0MMNz3ZgT for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:57:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.39.138]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N7iT4-1intzP21b8-014gZw; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:57:53 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:57:53 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Evilham Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort Message-Id: <20200612195753.74c342b8.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:aR0vKZZMUSA/fUw66NDnPO6WelT1VnAehe50VCVymes5EgQFt5A UaIKM7pnreHHcQ99i1izDeuYhcTIDuGdK/pxgj3LeatvG0HQhejXK8i/mFji3PTrgFNInXQ vU3ECnEwZZBLpQu6ulWKxBTRIc6K0SrYUUnDh91D5JN1v2tuJ41p+dIHKgnkFad9745yw9w SXcn36ETg1YABoC34dhtw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Jh8xxPcS0lM=:oNdHR2fgP12pjJAGRPqL4L NQDL2xktR0aClNkSWhT+9AtUzzHNU3JQF/aAs4I9Vjc/fSz0PzZap4+Vx09omg5nQzxLorJG1 DEZCFzAdmW7JmtFaj8e/N2wvLhBr2atAjXhqMTOPjC3BhOcxdQITDEXEUEaEXEwaw61raYLJe WDLLOqwSMZxVgdg+IAFF+FQorxVB4OpLrc12nZTxZNu5+j9NdKSKUnbUgYcM22+lzPcx8a0wW zwTx7euh+zBXJXQrRL//PkMT1YcH1P99dv1DaOO8GFLLOXIyMDIhVTN5gsJW72ojQvfBjBj9d shXwuPaaR4UPrKGT6x2PBFiVaYtEFoWxLUmJGt0scwbEIKwTPUnTVZe4ojUGNZnXInWhXv699 Uq8t3idwH4KLN/Jyzb3k3lRtd+gZ61AD/eDMWwdUkC79P6/Wy1ycz5O5BEwLuxvfoC9msT3UC dmb/b6TNsto7WPvB4uSkELBTJRAgZmy3DRMe4Lx9nVtn55JZ5imj5Fx/nPP+aagXv44XGowN2 x3W52+YwU5Zz+lGr4ayJ1OsRMrLdgA43QlKw+jMx2jB5vLdmfy87uIMDQaHcF45ee9TU/g+LA xTfy2nbJaXJMgrAHHfR3DWo8JDAK2+GO35Tt1RGQqa8iBEo2b7cNH8ccpHrBJR0jl34hcMpN6 oWkKrbdaeYqvqEdypNdS4fwA9H0Q4aTB3sEU97Lj5WP9TQ2wlhD+6fkng0BICpcSy/dwQWG4Q 33wFqF0iHphON5eIGN9++VJJhfj5grSVhxPiqgrhJC3+LnflVfc9vq35BiIKfJnfrlTnbSIN3 3/EMTSAdl0bDcdxYG0F/aXO6PovmmGcFcMM+YopUJs/vOAG40KO+bKXYaNlNcflLtdsYxgm X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k7jw0MMNz3ZgT X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.85 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.190]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.39.138:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.11)[0.111]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.53)[0.527]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:57:57 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:16:55 +0200, Evilham wrote: > On dv., juny 12 2020, Vincent DEFERT wrote: > [...] > > 1. Why mailing lists? > > > > I assume all of you have perfectly healthy eyes. Great! > > Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text > > messages > > is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is not > > possible > > in the long term. > > > Mailing lists are accessible if you use the right tools. I'd like to mention something very useful: When you use mailing lists with a MUA, you can store messages locally (using the MUA's "sorting tree" functions). Web resources sometimes disappear, and if you have kept a bookmark, it will lead to a 404 page, so it became useless; as mailing list messages are "place and content" in _one_ thing, you do not depend on any further tools. Depending on the storage format (mbox or MailDir), you can even use plain old grep to search for something specific. Your own messages will also automatically (!) be stored in "Sent messages" (or an equivalent thereof), so you can revisit what you wrote or what you replied to, at any time, without requiring an Internet connection. Sure, you can store web forum posts in plain text files too, but that has to be done manually, or "Save as..." with "as text" for the whole page, but what if there's pagination and you're on page 7 of 9... yes, it's not that concenient. > That being said: there are also support forums :-) if that fits > your workflow better, give it a go! That's true, FreeBSD offers them for many years. And there are web resources and a Wiki. I don't know if IRC is still a thing, though. :-) > > 3. Comfort and Openness > > > > FreeBSD has a great base system and a great text mode installer, > > but > > what's the point in installing it if managing applications is a > > mess and > > asking for help a curse? > > > This shouldn't be the case, and if it is in your use-case, the > best way to keep that from happening is to document the issues and > raise awareness. > I expect e.g. CURRENT to be rough around the edges when it comes > to the ports tree, but it's not unbearable; and the quarterly > branch for RELEASE / STABLE shouldn't have these issues, the > latest branch can have some of those issues, but that's why it's > latest. OS version and ports snapshots can be used in any combination the user desires (with certain limitations of course, but generally it's possible to use today's ports tree with a RELEASE OS version, or the RELEASE ports tree with a CURRENT OS version - those are edge cases, just to illustrate the independence). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 18:19:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADED341C3B for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:19:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic312-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic312-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k8CC72Bpz3bpd for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:19:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: 14VsLl8VM1lnn4H.a.am3Zz4fQLvfdUOvBceMv0vnhjQ0gD2VyQYCUt.4tL6bN1 afLvNKwb2Ec3J.EZE4YWmBCE939nbvK31tVPsuftLDul0seuleAHi1Np3pJ3zlASv03lcegnkWR7 L.z92I5aQplM.bCKFk7LefZGIE3oBEHJUp4_aglb00R6QkGlB9wHJL6i1SZDOo6W1_EgMxzae2TY prMQYgYqN8x3u4f_Ncr1Mgh8Ptl2ZHhzrJyrE19oM5izAP1Ntj9Uex65FvONovcdFP6JfzqmzSiK AkVfQpRBXmdyRaa0f8czxRsVkZobmZG80Q3Df0jgfDzlst3ZSiNsNXki1XsJ.YfnE6isnhB_rMVm l.sZTroZnJWH5tgVDdl2xzLLaAB5mXzo_Xa8ya4fp6Pn04Fj1wer5zbBjeiHX6b2KwreV3pMqDM5 0h63gUfEcDxKbLWLZ3HID0U7kLP3ALZqe.ndSXz5NfK3yGk5wmQbIbUE6hmdY0X6MrTqXF1k4VhP P72HbgbqV3zsXsZqTKq7E_vQnJcqGKOTSQb9WcULRppizYbht79g_PzJzizDO31zbSqtb2ruQsNP BMjPSjgpSYr.2iOAASGWaPz6NEYKg0oSBvt._uGm2RrDqsKzSCZ2hk.8j2ep24_8w9VijFAVDSQb KCyT1oIsJ10IDuCpOJpw0ck23OLEJMckLKhj9LEtGS3qTMpMs08xqlZodirlpBkMC5bMTBIh9tUW YS7N27h309DG6ScECs969C2rke6unqUY8a7nE1DHW1ZqxpMjAVu2tDHx5ZpVzXkDaJ_EcDuLb53j NTC2vUnfuoggDZOP6AKhLbOlJezx_laK3z33P44NwSEz9oyFhFl76P_fRzd9wqCH7RqoUt9mXC.N MZsWhrZHxUzNAG6DfH4CaxTK6fDpaCne1QxMv_tHL.xEvHG3HudSnMPd8xfH4dZYj_XaHdcKfj4s oOqEC7OsJPsCnGjmWNmsVlYqug0PeKVW1LT.SDbYT9QqYTlmzYnbmmFPRxRvQMU4XQ.5gKuYuNNU H4LgPckyeLMhFBlxmWFGFYv68KGvCbi.VAW5WS1B8lvoMcAXoG7jdoRzhTCJyEEpWOic5KpNi6pe _UwYkmXCkHyoKRxvTDdK8nDT7mCHOo.S5QfNuvcCXa4PmsgP5SiI6GKqDb.H1mhJm65gAzozpX9u sdLH1sCJXPQcdo8Z7bJhKB8pqx0li52AFmsIPBcWXDhsSfT3KZM4CKT4KUP7xxH.Ty5V.JtJwLJS LsX50xefNOKx44hi25wEWU4XiLYHDnEpRKncnnOmU_dVNH_XifR1dG.0YKxkBQBiod1AI6nOH2W7 zD.KzRl8S2hU0_VvriNrHaZP.RpQOIPwREp06IPpGShpfbjjPCg96HIqQCDMzQ2Pn2hFLenkuK2r Q7xK8oGrlUkUPnW2YLcifs8NRoA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:19:49 +0000 Received: by smtp417.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 3b58948cbabce3feaafd0d8e2ba70a59; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:19:45 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:19:45 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Openness vs. Comfort Message-ID: <20200612201945.72d3c22b@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200612195753.74c342b8.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200612195753.74c342b8.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k8CC72Bpz3bpd X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.001]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[77.238.178.97:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.01)[-1.010]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[77.238.178.97:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:19:52 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:57:53 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >Depending on the storage format (mbox or MailDir), you can even use >plain old grep to search for something specific. In an ideal world, but not in reality, since even plain text is often encoded. Here an example of a plain text mail from a mailing list. https://www.base64decode.org/ This is stored on my machine: aHR0cHM6Ly9yZXBvLm9yLmN6L2phY2tfbWl4ZXIuZ2l0CgpIb3BlIHRoYXQgaGVscHMuCk9saXZp ZXIKCi0tIApTaXRlIHdlYiA6IGh0dHBzOi8vbGlicmF6aWsudHV4ZmFtaWx5Lm9yZy8KRG9uYXRp b24gOiBodHRwczovL2xpYmVyYXBheS5jb20vTGlicmFaaUsvCkRpYXNwb3JhIDogCmh0dHBzOi8v ZnJhbWFzcGhlcmUub3JnL3Blb3BsZS84YzE4NGFmMGM5NDUwMTM0ZjY2ODJhMDAwMDA1MzYyNQpN YXN0b2RvbiA6IGh0dHBzOi8vbWFzdG9kb24ueHl6L0BMaWJyYVppSwpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMaW51eC1hdWRpby11c2VyIG1haWxpbmcg bGlzdApMaW51eC1hdWRpby11c2VyQGxpc3RzLmxpbnV4YXVkaW8ub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vbGlzdHMu bGludXhhdWRpby5vcmcvbGlzdGluZm8vbGludXgtYXVkaW8tdXNlcgo= After decoding it reads: https://repo.or.cz/jack_mixer.git Hope that helps. Olivier -- Site web : https://librazik.tuxfamily.org/ Donation : https://liberapay.com/LibraZiK/ Diaspora : https://framasphere.org/people/8c184af0c9450134f6682a0000053625 Mastodon : https://mastodon.xyz/@LibraZiK _______________________________________________ Linux-audio-user mailing list Linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 18:58:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A078D34245B for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:58:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k93b727Bz3dKl for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:58:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49k93Z58MCz15tt for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:58:16 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k93b727Bz3dKl X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.979]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.14)[-0.140]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.82)[-0.821]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 18:58:20 -0000 On 2020-06-12 02:14, Polytropon wrote: >> But it's often done by redefining the ASCII characters carriage return >> and line feed. Originally they meant, respectively, move the print head >> to the left margin, and roll the paper up a line. > > Erm... no. The carriage return returns the _carriage_ to the > first position (here: to the right), that's why it is called > carriage return and not print head return. :-) > > On older electrical typewriters, you will see... Electric typewriters didn't use ASCII. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 19:11:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14AD34253B for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:11:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k9Ly0qcwz3fLS for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:11:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49k9Lx2YX2z17Ky for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mailman details To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200612173645.22d774a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200612184404.5fac9c85@archlinux> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: <58f160b6-a9f8-90bd-453a-986b022b0463@panix.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:11:35 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200612184404.5fac9c85@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k9Ly0qcwz3fLS X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.45 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.980]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.14)[-0.144]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.82)[-0.822]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:11:38 -0000 On 2020-06-12 12:44, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > Two times I changed my email address for this list by the web > interface. Mailman claimed the changes are submitted and there's no > confirmation mail in the spam folder. I'm not allowed to post to this > list using the new address. If this mail should come through, the old > address is kept. > > Any ideas? Well...just checking a couple basics...maybe you've already covered this... Mailman says, "You can change the address that you are subscribed to the mailing list with by entering the new address in the fields below. Note that a confirmation email will be sent to the new address..." Did you look for it at the new address? It might be simpler and more reliable to create a new subscription for the new address, and later delete the old subscription. And, to be straightforward, do everything about creating the new subscription, from the new account. (And delete the old subscription from the old account.) From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 19:12:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2063427E2 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:12:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k9N103P2z3fQ7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:12:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id h3so9758691ilh.13 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 12:12:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6RFvos+zbIdKgRJLlbOvyq16KSVsWum2Ek7R6sTUVtg=; b=hzlu9wPJCwCHM9iD4wqOVDpMkTePK37/QwKTIpVT/xWV5Lt50W77VOQZCeqv2KSpUP 7umxPWfL3JyZZ0PBc+rWO2eBYokV43r8btiI/SrnO4D7gXPUlW10HnHPsI8cd3/G6NnF aMt3bzvuruZ4WIZdBPGXgoBaot6T9XT6K6HYoM3JaQQflRBm8hKy4hIBHDxm7suJnexK pWUkVZvtsaKWXKFOcCGDrCRBx4A3Vq32m2lfotDHnLqhDx2ea4czkVMp6OAqQqFw9bql 8Rf+HhITO4pPFzmyAM+shQLiLUFcn5e2Cw4sZbNSqjiM+YsWsFvKwQF5drINu9c/US8O vstg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6RFvos+zbIdKgRJLlbOvyq16KSVsWum2Ek7R6sTUVtg=; b=asWxnEzHw3mihAW2bGxN0+awXYLOEUm+Nh6z1E336LuXvcX700zxwTQwRMPClZevAs zOP5w5mnLhYXr+HFPbyH5r/nxHWrcDBGeW/eK0Lz8XFfu2RPM/vl2P+kz1Xdfly99cr7 A0+pKms722S1hv2T/+IEP+AzbD1lpz/dvdOm6wjZTaL0M672mgbuxaYWSO02IAGxXN7D 0gsqisLkwjDq/CT5/bA0BEDToTTJiG2+5payoUyrrz6u+bM1lvYNqorOMiypd73dr6+L HxmWbfNW/S7torteS0DF53cFqzZuAP2lyFTciGr86Vai2w5QolIAw9WjB2TceDM4zOsr pIwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530auq7hEY8y0V+8sUWnj3pMbPwn9DdYAfqdVvckhF8mtnRxkyIw 7qaJmhoQ/5q4RiHxWcp9DyJEuv/BLHAu8m9SyFWUPCiEGP0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxRyHlE+L8gGTMUYbOXok1y5sc312C4/Vp3iCppbDOjhoBvtX/+en/isoXwfzTSBA0OBYgzkX6n2vzF2uQm30w= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e4a:: with SMTP id s71mr14247527ilb.119.1591989152019; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 12:12:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:12:20 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: Kurt Hackenberg Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k9N103P2z3fQ7 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=hzlu9wPJ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::131 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.06 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.009]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::131:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.04)[-1.042]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:12:33 -0000 On Fri, Jun 12, 2020 at 2:58 PM Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > On 2020-06-12 02:14, Polytropon wrote: > > >> But it's often done by redefining the ASCII characters carriage return > >> and line feed. Originally they meant, respectively, move the print head > >> to the left margin, and roll the paper up a line. > > > > Erm... no. The carriage return returns the _carriage_ to the > > first position (here: to the right), that's why it is called > > carriage return and not print head return. :-) > > > > On older electrical typewriters, you will see... > Electric typewriters didn't use ASCII. > But they did have carriage return and line feeds... the two are different the best way to understand that is on manual typewriters the "return bar" (the thing with a big handle on it) [ https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Yw4qOagWL._AC_UL160_.jpg ] would first do a carriage return and if you pushed it hard enough (hard not to) it would also do a line feed. You could also do a line feed by just turning the nob also. So it has nothing to do with character encoding! -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 19:21:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848D6342FDE for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:21:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic317-32.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic317-32.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k9ZV3L60z3fmC for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:21:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 5npMX9EVM1mAaRK.uHieCBU1Tnlz5tuYTUJIoa3FRYTlRNc9FAGPvGRGTTW9TSx 7E.rL0lxuTNbIybsbyxHEzpPUdQPUwjx0nMNbgUsL3p0ptjJea2Thoa2ykVGlRtoShyPJ7KuZrAw 8CAJ6pkmELqFLGg90ZOcWnJNCa2cr5P9XuM6ScykWBHr_cAYO.eBiFPZrpwfo5wg7kE0vsp4lmXy efGjicvjhbV29lM_onOdHI2Ywi8lrm8OPkE4oO9V6IOt2lsKSYpp0wazT4ECx_iV_9gMZIl5UJcA A7wsuU84PL.GR0SUgJNQPYF.47vri2HLzkPHfh0Cya59DZOTPBhdliGF3dQ5wV855KhlnoJGTUdq JDxDSyyi1c30goSiRb5oXWjm4gAaGzcpjeoywvo16GdWCy0LqjUKII2OoTANjrhOrPIFMpKRStft gu1jkgDeoNpACDR7.qZmR1ZYeCRq1JbyVjQaIvwlgdw7FtCxVX.ZRVUNS_XEPahLm1ne0tufp3wZ n5k.bU_U8w._mmkhqtCoC7SyDXN7FhFkno5G5DRvzJmh3Wy0Pmc3Zed1VlV4xgBPX._j8NEmvd4M 83.cEEqK8zDE_WW9LoEH15r5N3TS24kmquFq0PXXLVr75iCmrQMKM0w0OlxUBAeeE256n2ldy4_. DHhZWggWIU1HM8gh_dSOAawiwcHkBZevWB6hCmd_z3MzOGNvG.N2H2up0a5OR5.atauI4oQQxOOI GSkT_hJkUmnxI5StywbCF0jtoDbC9hAReaX1kKjrH3XjTzvIubxNYIlsS1JZQOW0xAtCqK_2NDv5 oSKnkyfGu9yZE9XperrReceh83ZVyFRWCYG63zNbWCHWVTsqUP6n_u8FIYJNO8_O61Yb0rxvjSOk gFNSAIbw4R5RqcdtD5tht6ozULBL5wi5adeUFuSeR8pkg_j1b48D6gb3ETiIINN2oOMvJJQaETP2 hS.ZSXm1Gi31jBe5wougZsEChg1jysI27l3L825hCDTz9wXabrwSymdWkRNdwJlyKoSUvTTuAr4L BV3s9IGKrHyBn1hkQG25EGtIwDc_dIxz.XmokKkVVvd4f3imZ4fhiBxp50YXLkVmWYZdcH3eed2Y 5Id_9aiuAPYh1Ez_pNyPXVjRcogY1STIYawE6pl0Jb6bqySsxJa.ntFY9kHrvOrnNGQyEXkcm69P OMrejbwD6ot4O8KRTWBopnUhtEOEYdehUg_SsEa_l3Jeq_Y1cXZiTtfWmD0cyDwXUTQ6BYv1B.GA y4B6PojFn3HraKyDzdCx6SdwVYpIoWgKnd31DExXI1_3NipY.VP_zPXBnTAiITVigZyBbVCyxh1q 9u5cTz.CU3Ugd.olRtysafG4EPAzwDlYFaNm0mqN3Ay0nnPYKOogC9QuE4Cq4jY1G1vs6xvN_Ewg qbRfMpy9.Y34PhYgQRv32 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic317.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:21:36 +0000 Received: by smtp418.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4e4e7e9d170bec25a452d22cf1239f92; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:21:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f49.google.com with SMTP id i4so4264824pjd.0 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 12:21:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wY9J53tcnTH+Nnn1Zgjm6sFrJr8YZ735+GBcGmt4bKVINGmuk JNMeQWkvtplYQPkFIsqFh2wuOsTvEKBqU2RhwCE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzU/8PeFWVYyn5VryXU0nzDwo1N5D0SVKQMFOsVuOdyV+f2QzOIiJfUVUgxcECNYoWBkwk6Mw86/q7M2PCnJ4U= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4ecb:: with SMTP id v11mr387352pjl.75.1591989692352; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 12:21:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:21:15 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16119 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k9ZV3L60z3fmC X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.006]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.985]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.184.43:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.81)[-0.808]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.184.43:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:21:39 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 19:58, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > > On 2020-06-12 02:14, Polytropon wrote: > > >> But it's often done by redefining the ASCII characters carriage return > >> and line feed. Originally they meant, respectively, move the print head > >> to the left margin, and roll the paper up a line. > > > > Erm... no. The carriage return returns the _carriage_ to the > > first position (here: to the right), that's why it is called > > carriage return and not print head return. :-) > > > > On older electrical typewriters, you will see... > Electric typewriters didn't use ASCII. Maybe the OP meant teleprinters, which did indeed use 5-bit and 7-bit ascii, still used today by hams in RTTY and other legacy digital modes. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 19:23:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA304342FFE for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:23:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k9d54DzYz3g8D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:23:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 12:23:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Makin' backups -- questions To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <90309.1591958242@segfault.tristatelogic.com> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <6ba3f007-3045-99be-5d35-10c75b37ab17@holgerdanske.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 12:23:50 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <90309.1591958242@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k9d54DzYz3g8D X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.15)[0.154]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.63)[0.627]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.82)[0.819]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:23:54 -0000 On 2020-06-12 03:37, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > In message , > David Christensen wrote: >> The simplest, but least efficient, backup method I have found for system >> drives is to copy the device raw sectors to a file with dd(1) > > Too slow. Fast enough for me: # time dev2img ... real 12m4.536s user 9m6.544s sys 0m48.416s > rsync allows me to just update my backup drives incrementally, which is > WAY faster. (My server has 3TB live. DD'ing all of that would take all > night.) See previous: >> 3. I keep my system images "small" ... >> 2. I use MBR partitioning, to avoid problems with the GPT backup >> partition table when the source and target device sizes differ. > > You're going to have to explain that one to me. What are these "problems" > of what you speak? See "Secondary GPT": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 19:32:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60C5343724 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:32:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stephen@missouri.edu) Received: from esa10.hc3631-84.iphmx.com (esa10.hc3631-84.iphmx.com [139.138.35.203]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "esa10.hc3631-84.iphmx.com", Issuer "HydrantID SSL ICA G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k9qY4wjwz3gSN for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:32:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stephen@missouri.edu) X-IronPort-RemoteIP: 198.209.56.19 X-IronPort-MID: 13719044 X-IronPort-Reputation: 5.2 X-IronPort-Listener: IncomingMail X-IronPort-SenderGroup: ExchangeServers X-IronPort-MailFlowPolicy: $RELAYED X-SBRS: 5.2 IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3AKFARjRJKLq/BahJX0dmcpTJfSg0OgZ6tZlFHst?= =?us-ascii?q?4LjrtUeZ6u9JP4MB6X/aBri1nEGc3D4O4R0rKO9+j7QTlEqZ+Ns3EHJYYIHx?= =?us-ascii?q?YekctDhUhoGtOMXH67Y/v3YykzBs8HTlJ9+GunKmBQGd3lYEDIozu/4SNdXl?= =?us-ascii?q?2mbVYle7urQs/ny8Kw0e3ooc/6fhlIiTyhYLh7MBSxq0Dru9ILhZd5c/9smB?= =?us-ascii?q?bSqyIQPeRdnj0zfBfDw1D9/se17Nho9CED8+k5+Zt4WL7hN789UaQeCT0nN2?= =?us-ascii?q?4v48i+rgXOVQuC4FMZU34NlQdSAk7I4AypFpv0uzHx4/J0wzLSfdWjS7cyVH?= =?us-ascii?q?yu7rw+ThjuhWZPO2s88XrMjdFqjeRWrA+s?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2GnBwA71+NemBM40cZmHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFAgUoCgiKBTVwKhBqII4higQGCcpYOgXsCGQEtAgQBAYREAhe?= =?us-ascii?q?CFgEkPAINAgMBAQEDAgUBAQYBAQEBAQYEAgIQAQEBAQEICwsGKYVjC4ZIAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAxIRETMiAgEgAgImAgICMBUQAgQNBgIBAR6DBIJ9pisBgSg+AiMBPwEMgQW?= =?us-ascii?q?KAIEyiQIBCYFNgQ4qAYxKGoIAgREngjRzhGWCfYJgBI8/gmCiHgqCWZkPBQo?= =?us-ascii?q?dnmeRF54tAgICAgkCFYIBgWJyE4MkUBcCDY4qDgmOJEMxNwIGCAEBAwl8ji8?= =?us-ascii?q?BgRABAQ?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2GnBwA71+NemBM40cZmHAEBAQEBAQcBARIBAQQEAQFAg?= =?us-ascii?q?UoCgiKBTVwKhBqII4higQGCcpYOgXsCGQEtAgQBAYREAheCFgEkPAINAgMBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEDAgUBAQYBAQEBAQYEAgIQAQEBAQEICwsGKYVjC4ZIAQEBAxIRETMiAgEgA?= =?us-ascii?q?gImAgICMBUQAgQNBgIBAR6DBIJ9pisBgSg+AiMBPwEMgQWKAIEyiQIBCYFNg?= =?us-ascii?q?Q4qAYxKGoIAgREngjRzhGWCfYJgBI8/gmCiHgqCWZkPBQodnmeRF54tAgICA?= =?us-ascii?q?gkCFYIBgWJyE4MkUBcCDY4qDgmOJEMxNwIGCAEBAwl8ji8BgRABAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,504,1583215200"; d="scan'208";a="13719044" Received: from ex2-t13.um.umsystem.edu ([198.209.56.19]) by esa10.hc3631-84.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-GCM-SHA384; 12 Jun 2020 14:32:55 -0500 Received: from EX2-N14.um.umsystem.edu (198.209.56.22) by EX2-T13.um.umsystem.edu (198.209.56.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1979.3; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:32:54 -0500 Received: from EX2-N14.um.umsystem.edu ([198.209.56.22]) by EX2-N14.um.umsystem.edu ([198.209.56.22]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.003; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:32:54 -0500 From: "Montgomery-Smith, Stephen" To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: CR LF was: freebsd vs. netbsd Thread-Topic: CR LF was: freebsd vs. netbsd Thread-Index: AQHWPTV3gJxfbcyFFU+jmTuH1nAN9KjOczwAgACXBYCAABBrgIAAFkCAgADYPwCAAK7gAIAAD9wAgACp5wCAAALeAIAAipKAgAA9dACAADSigIAAxDUAgAAB3QCAAAw8AIAAbFaAgAAqr4CAAAfcgIAAefqAgAB+PoCAANWHAIAABmyAgAADQoA= Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:32:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 x-originating-ip: [128.206.49.160] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k9qY4wjwz3gSN X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=missouri.edu; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of stephen@missouri.edu designates 139.138.35.203 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=stephen@missouri.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.07 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.978]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+exists:139.138.35.203.spf.hc3631-84.iphmx.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; MIME_BASE64_TEXT_BOGUS(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[139.138.35.203:from]; MIME_BASE64_TEXT(0.10)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[missouri.edu,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.195]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16417, ipnet:139.138.35.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:32:59 -0000 T24gNi8xMi8yMCAyOjIxIFBNLCBPdHRhdmlvIENhcnVzbyB2aWEgZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnMg d3JvdGU6DQo+IE9uIEZyaSwgMTIgSnVuIDIwMjAgYXQgMTk6NTgsIEt1cnQgSGFja2VuYmVyZyA8 a2hAcGFuaXguY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4+DQo+PiBPbiAyMDIwLTA2LTEyIDAyOjE0LCBQb2x5dHJv cG9uIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4NCj4+Pj4gQnV0IGl0J3Mgb2Z0ZW4gZG9uZSBieSByZWRlZmluaW5nIHRo ZSBBU0NJSSBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIGNhcnJpYWdlIHJldHVybg0KPj4+PiBhbmQgbGluZSBmZWVkLiBP cmlnaW5hbGx5IHRoZXkgbWVhbnQsIHJlc3BlY3RpdmVseSwgbW92ZSB0aGUgcHJpbnQgaGVhZA0K Pj4+PiB0byB0aGUgbGVmdCBtYXJnaW4sIGFuZCByb2xsIHRoZSBwYXBlciB1cCBhIGxpbmUuDQo+ Pj4NCj4+PiBFcm0uLi4gbm8uIFRoZSBjYXJyaWFnZSByZXR1cm4gcmV0dXJucyB0aGUgX2NhcnJp YWdlXyB0byB0aGUNCj4+PiBmaXJzdCBwb3NpdGlvbiAoaGVyZTogdG8gdGhlIHJpZ2h0KSwgdGhh dCdzIHdoeSBpdCBpcyBjYWxsZWQNCj4+PiBjYXJyaWFnZSByZXR1cm4gYW5kIG5vdCBwcmludCBo ZWFkIHJldHVybi4gOi0pDQo+Pj4NCj4+PiBPbiBvbGRlciBlbGVjdHJpY2FsIHR5cGV3cml0ZXJz LCB5b3Ugd2lsbCBzZWUuLi4NCj4+IEVsZWN0cmljIHR5cGV3cml0ZXJzIGRpZG4ndCB1c2UgQVND SUkuDQo+IA0KPiBNYXliZSB0aGUgT1AgbWVhbnQgdGVsZXByaW50ZXJzLCB3aGljaCBkaWQgaW5k ZWVkIHVzZSA1LWJpdCBhbmQgNy1iaXQNCj4gYXNjaWksIHN0aWxsIHVzZWQgdG9kYXkgYnkgaGFt cyBpbiBSVFRZIGFuZCBvdGhlciBsZWdhY3kgZGlnaXRhbA0KPiBtb2Rlcy4NCj4gDQoNCkkgdXNl ZCB0byBoYXZlIGEgdGVsZXR5cGUuICBPbiB0aGVzZSBkZXZpY2VzLCB0aGUgQ1Igd291bGQgY2F1 c2UgdGhlDQpwcmludGVyIGhlYWQgdG8gZ28gdG8gdGhlIGxlZnQgbWFyZ2luLCBhbmQgdGhlIExG IHdvdWxkIGNhdXNlIHRoZSBwYWdlDQp0byBtb3ZlIHVwIG9uZSBsaW5lLg0KDQpJdCBhbHdheXMg c2VlbWVkIHRvIG1lIHRvIGJlIGEgd2FzdGUgb2YgYml0cy4gIFdoeSBub3QgaGF2ZSBvbmUgQVND SUkNCmNvZGUgdGhhdCBkaWQgYm90aD8gIFRoZW4gSSBmb3VuZCBvdXQgd2h5Lg0KDQpPbmUgdGlt ZSwgSSBkZWNpZGVkIHRvIHRyeSBhIExGIENSIGF0IHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgYSBsaW5lIGluc3RlYWQg b2YgQ1INCkxGLiAgSSBmb3VuZCB0aGF0IHRoZSBuZXh0IGNoYXJhY3RlciB0aGF0IHdhcyB0eXBl ZCBlbmRlZCB1cCBpbiB0aGUNCm1pZGRsZSBvZiB0aGUgcGFnZSwgbm90IG9uIHRoZSBmYXIgbGVm dCBhcyBpdCBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuLiAgV2hhdCBJDQpyZWFsaXplZCB3YXMgdGhhdCB0aGUg Q1IgdGFrZXMgdGltZSB0byBjb21wbGV0ZSwgYmVjYXVzZSBpdCBoYXMgdG8NCnBoeXNpY2FsbHkg bW92ZSB0aGUgcHJpbnRlciBoZWFkIHRvIHRoZSBsZWZ0IG1hcmdpbi4gIFRoZSBleHRyYSBMRiBn YXZlDQp0aGUgcHJpbnRlciB0aGUgZXh0cmEgdGltZSBpdCBuZWVkZWQuDQoNClNvIEkgZG9uJ3Qg a25vdyBhYm91dCB0eXBld3JpdGVycywgYnV0IHRlbGV0eXBlcyBkZWZpbml0ZWx5IHVzZWQgQ1Ig YW5kDQpMRiBmb3IgdHdvIGRpZmZlcmVudCBwdXJwb3Nlcy4gIEFuZCBpdCByZWFsbHkgd2FzIG5l Y2Vzc2FyeSB0byBoYXZlIENSDQpMRiBhdCB0aGUgZW5kcyBvZiB0aGUgbGluZXMu From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 19:41:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405A034397D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:41:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000018e909.226817d1150cc5167279481d65db245e@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kB0r6FM3z3xwG for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:41:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000018e909.226817d1150cc5167279481d65db245e@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1591990861; x=1594582861; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=V4uqIO7Z2ZYIuY1qN8KfkRZ6DT6RalxwNQ2a/xzRWs8=; b=jYS6YOac1D3dMwXuFcK1IVihFxBvRictDm/0rjMC9Wni8zvrgjIcjL2Y8ISwQ4WPQwZBVBkn+E29bjADYk1jzHJOWlRsFmFoJWYzlxrWtRTkD7BHQZIWgwHermq/wzrlB+4b+t7a9NIQVbYwxpIA1iBh3h+OBtgHZAvG+tdPxM4= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDAxOGU5MDkuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:40:56 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:40:56 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jjpXq-0008wy-El for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:40:54 +0100 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:40:54 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200612204054.363719eeb2d1f23e4f01fcb0@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kB0r6FM3z3xwG X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=jYS6YOac; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c2000018e909.226817d1150cc5167279481d65db245e@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c2000018e909.226817d1150cc5167279481d65db245e@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.08 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.019]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.985]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.37)[-0.372]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000018e909.226817d1150cc5167279481d65db245e@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org, 4250.82.1d4c2000018e909.226817d1150cc5167279481d65db245e@email-od.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:41:02 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:58:16 -0400 Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > On 2020-06-12 02:14, Polytropon wrote: > > >> But it's often done by redefining the ASCII characters carriage return > >> and line feed. Originally they meant, respectively, move the print head > >> to the left margin, and roll the paper up a line. > > > > Erm... no. The carriage return returns the _carriage_ to the > > first position (here: to the right), that's why it is called > > carriage return and not print head return. :-) > > > > On older electrical typewriters, you will see... > Electric typewriters didn't use ASCII. The point being made is that typewriters (manual or electric) operate by moving the carriage (the device that carries the paper) and the carriage return lever returns the carriage but teletypes and other printers operate by moving the print head and the carriage return returns the print head not the carriage. This strongly suggests that the name of the ASCII character derives from typewriters and not from the printers that used it otherwise it would be printhead return. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 20:58:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A67345F21 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:58:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: from outgoing.tristatelogic.com (segfault.tristatelogic.com [69.62.255.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49kCkH2vKnz43tD for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:58:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id D40A84E751; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:58:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Makin' backups -- questions In-Reply-To: <6ba3f007-3045-99be-5d35-10c75b37ab17@holgerdanske.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <92537.1591995509.1@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:58:29 -0700 Message-ID: <92538.1591995509@segfault.tristatelogic.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kCkH2vKnz43tD X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rfg@tristatelogic.com designates 69.62.255.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rfg@tristatelogic.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tristatelogic.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.45)[0.454]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.40)[0.399]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.06)[0.060]; MISSING_TO(2.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14051, ipnet:69.62.128.0/17, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:58:32 -0000 In message <6ba3f007-3045-99be-5d35-10c75b37ab17@holgerdanske.com>, David Christensen wrote: >>> 2. I use MBR partitioning, to avoid problems with the GPT backup >>> partition table when the source and target device sizes differ. I should perhaps have mentioned earlier that due to the fact that I use rsync to make my backups, if the source and target partitions are not exactly identical in size, this generally causes no problems, assuming of course that the output partition is big enough to hold copies of all of the -files- on the input partition. >> You're going to have to explain that one to me. What are these "problems" >> of what you speak? > >See "Secondary GPT": > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table I know, in general, what GPT is and I am aware that there is a second backup copy of that partition table. I am not aware of any specific "problems" this creates, in actual or common practice, relative to MBR. I converted all of my own drives to GPT some time ago now, and I have never experienced any special issues or problems as a result of that change-over. So I am still puzzled by your assertion that GPT can be in some way(s) more problematic that MBR. Regards, rfg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 21:45:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE533478D4 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 21:45:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kDmQ4Q2xz47MY for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 21:45:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kDmB67zTzFfxY for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:45:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1591998324; bh=0AKUmrMW4pSsYTC7IVEV53XVNA22G5yIIrqvgxyyR4k=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Hd7dfQ+GHeWKrKH+HhstWjoRCrV5FZXcTQDJkmF89m6SspD2hBYMiejc9qh2MXj99 xzmqgp7uQ+SdKLzEwhy39deN2sQk844SiJbSMgaYJNg+zee+egspXnMsrl9uTiNr+f kH5uUluemsL5vO/xAT8kNL914O9mrn1Bfv8MVf4s= X-Riseup-User-ID: 04079473C67C5B79CDA0EAE23D03FF7C08FC2901D33725465DD6555FDE5CDFAC Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49kDmB1bTtz8w34 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 23:45:13 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: [solved] Mailman details Message-ID: <20200612234513.38fb2018@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <58f160b6-a9f8-90bd-453a-986b022b0463@panix.com> References: <20200612173645.22d774a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200612184404.5fac9c85@archlinux> <58f160b6-a9f8-90bd-453a-986b022b0463@panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kDmQ4Q2xz47MY X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=Hd7dfQ+G; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.29 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.06)[-1.055]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.65)[-0.647]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 21:45:27 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:11:35 -0400, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: >On 2020-06-12 12:44, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >Did you look for it at the new address? Thank you, no, I look at the old address' spam folder. To make it more worse, I pushed "Submit My Changes" instead of "Change My Address and Name", so there also was no confirmation mail in my new address' spam folder. Most likely the accompanying symptoms of wine (not the software). Regards, Ralf From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 22:36:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A07C348D2A for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 22:36:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kFtl5wGyz4Bx9 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 22:35:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:35:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Makin' backups -- questions To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <92538.1591995509@segfault.tristatelogic.com> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <9e3e8b2b-7ec2-a329-2ec0-6d90bea03d27@holgerdanske.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:35:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <92538.1591995509@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kFtl5wGyz4Bx9 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.77 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.41)[0.412]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.64)[0.640]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.82)[0.817]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[184.105.128.27:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 22:36:01 -0000 On 2020-06-12 13:58, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > In message <6ba3f007-3045-99be-5d35-10c75b37ab17@holgerdanske.com>, > David Christensen wrote: > >>>> 2. I use MBR partitioning, to avoid problems with the GPT backup >>>> partition table when the source and target device sizes differ. >>> You're going to have to explain that one to me. What are these "problems" >>> of what you speak? >> >> See "Secondary GPT": >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table > > I know, in general, what GPT is and I am aware that there is a second > backup copy of that partition table. I am not aware of any specific > "problems" this creates, in actual or common practice, relative to MBR. > > I converted all of my own drives to GPT some time ago now, and I have > never experienced any special issues or problems as a result of that > change-over. So I am still puzzled by your assertion that GPT can be > in some way(s) more problematic that MBR. If I use dd(1) to copy all of the blocks of a system disc with MBR partitioning to another device with a different (but sufficient) number of blocks. the target device will be laid out correctly, the partition, slice, and/or filesystem contents will be correct, and the disc work as a system disc. I have done this countless times. If I use dd(1) to copy all of the blocks of a system disc with GPT partitioning to another device with a different (but sufficient) number of blocks, the target device primary GPT table and partition, slice, and/or filesystem contents will be correct, but the secondary GPT table either will be in the wrong location (destination has more blocks) or will be missing (destination has fewer blocks). My guess is that the disc would still work as a system disc (?), but I would need to fix the secondary GPT table. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 00:00:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2880934A6B6 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 00:00:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: from outgoing.tristatelogic.com (segfault.tristatelogic.com [69.62.255.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49kHlz1Fx3z4GQZ for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 00:00:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id B18114E751; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:00:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Makin' backups -- questions In-Reply-To: <9e3e8b2b-7ec2-a329-2ec0-6d90bea03d27@holgerdanske.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <94011.1592006407.1@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 17:00:07 -0700 Message-ID: <94012.1592006407@segfault.tristatelogic.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kHlz1Fx3z4GQZ X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rfg@tristatelogic.com designates 69.62.255.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rfg@tristatelogic.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.81 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.33)[-0.327]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tristatelogic.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.60)[-0.597]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.41)[0.414]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14051, ipnet:69.62.128.0/17, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 00:00:16 -0000 In message <9e3e8b2b-7ec2-a329-2ec0-6d90bea03d27@holgerdanske.com>, David Christensen wrote: >> I converted all of my own drives to GPT some time ago now, and I have >> never experienced any special issues or problems as a result of that >> change-over. So I am still puzzled by your assertion that GPT can be >> in some way(s) more problematic that MBR. > >If I use dd(1) to copy all of the blocks of a system disc with MBR >partitioning to another device with a different (but sufficient) number >of blocks. the target device will be laid out correctly, the partition, >slice, and/or filesystem contents will be correct, and the disc work as >a system disc. I have done this countless times. > > >If I use dd(1) to copy all of the blocks of a system disc with GPT >partitioning to another device with a different (but sufficient) number >of blocks, the target device primary GPT table and partition, slice, >and/or filesystem contents will be correct, but the secondary GPT table >either will be in the wrong location (destination has more blocks) or >will be missing (destination has fewer blocks). My guess is that the >disc would still work as a system disc (?), but I would need to fix the >secondary GPT table. This reminds me of this old doctor joke... PATIENT: Doctor! Doctor! It hurts when I do this! DOCTOR: Don't do that. But seriously, I have found that copying whole partitions is often easiest using the Linux gparted tool. DD is quite obviously an -extremely- low level tool, and rather ham-fisted. Clonezilla can also copy individual partitions. Me personally? I wouldn't use DD except to copy -everything- between two drives having exactly the same number of sectors. Note that if you use DD to copy from a smaller drive to a bigger drive, then afterwards the BIOS and everything else will tell you that the destination drive's physical size is -smaller- than it actually is, i.e. exactly equal to the size of the (smaller) source drive. Yet another reason not to use DD to copy either whole disks or partitions... unless the size of the destination is -exactly- equal to that of the source. Regards, rfg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 03:57:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E595B34F2E0 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 03:57:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com (mail-wm1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kP1w0LPPz4TBj for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 03:57:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id g10so9595475wmh.4 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:57:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hZma560XkBM/RMs9Xk7wF3FUbZRbkxxmjkpEsRHCY+g=; b=i9EJ3OmwDUYK394ra9x5OWUqOjsesjUR5wQ0TyNlX30cCh0VgKKN4q4ufQl6f+llhp h8X9uRdPZh+oXiAsPWQs55VbvuIBJENh6zElu6eI3RPEJ10B1hWwRtLJan1iU8XVCroN LzZtek7x0pNAlAAsM2hMlPyfEOwkajbqC8EgSFrLCxR1Cr8qg+PmA5bhNLq9wxsoWs6I 6vSl7Ei4fi9Ingip3Dlx8IZm/nFVi6/DhhGoAcX6JyIB0Ko1BgPFA+QFaVv4yFsWeagq uMxDN+TjN5xzDKm1IvMYQZBJ2qu9VegUCuBQq0XShsvfGHMi9hR2m9PhLiPPXk/YCrE+ JU8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hZma560XkBM/RMs9Xk7wF3FUbZRbkxxmjkpEsRHCY+g=; b=tXA7fvTu/Cd/jL/XI6gZ1w6/brSjawgFPG2QcfZSZIT9rrGB9f4cbtFv/tthGLyMAI kSIj1Nn2hYZStpZxS+tBEyMBxW8jaB39g7hZXno2qFpMTXDVtlpvHdSzXVOfDm2+OH5A CfD2DJQxOLUDsGGLf5YzbY60WdU90h7Sz0v6LyBBRw3R4Fjbn+VbHVocc0/QA9pkp6cL DUevwth/eRAAq5aNgSAjWHinpTeW4u0UdrN/udMnqOFX25pS9hUyM/sM8JLAd/fpjtXU oKgaex9HgIzqWjJrq7E6/Y7igi+mX7Hi9JOTvmIhKd2SqzEN1Q7bJKy36wuJ4CH6Xe6L 683g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5335epblEFavR+EWI3ThpWR5MbuMhhujk8V2dLz/9u8LvW4a2nYt Cdk/xJ5RvgC6p+Sf35R3lfwJ10/Raf0x8IceCmgJ5n72eDV/rg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNL5MWKMhQrtFRheqJS9zoI1fCVLqQYayNOQF/evUzULL3aAB9vvqGoFXl1EtAFB9kmBEVJSdWxEwlnnx4KBY= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c385:: with SMTP id s5mr2109905wmj.121.1592020657955; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 20:57:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 05:56:38 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: iwm0: could not initiate scan To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kP1w0LPPz4TBj X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=i9EJ3Omw; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::332) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.18 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.17)[-0.172]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.19)[-0.195]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::332:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.49)[0.487]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 03:57:41 -0000 Hello world :-) I have wpa_supplicant() enabled by default on my laptop. But also I have radio disable switch. I want to use WiFi only when the radio switch is set to on, otherwise I want radio to remain silent. That works fine, except when radio is turned off the iwm driver trashes my dmesg with following: +iwm0: could not initiate scan After some time I only get those messages in my dmesg log, what I consider unwanted and unnecessary massage flood. How can I get rid of those messages when iwm driver radio is off? Shouldn't iwm or wpa_supplicant check in the first place whether radio is enabled? Should I diable wpa_supplicant by default and then start it by hand when needed? Is there any other simple and elegant way like the radio switch button? I also imagine that this situation may have negative impact on power usage on the laptop? Any hints appreciated :-) Tomek ps/2: How can I enable timestamp before each dmesg line so I know when the message was generated? This may be beneficial and I think this could be enabled by default..? :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 04:41:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E23C328504 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 04:41:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kQ0d4CXMz4WKP for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 04:41:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 21:41:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Makin' backups -- questions To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <94012.1592006407@segfault.tristatelogic.com> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <52e039ec-7ec1-d523-e64b-d76a069dde9b@holgerdanske.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 21:41:34 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <94012.1592006407@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kQ0d4CXMz4WKP X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.66 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(1.10)[1.103]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.75)[0.747]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.91)[0.907]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 04:41:38 -0000 On 2020-06-12 17:00, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > But seriously, I have found that copying whole partitions is often easiest > using the Linux gparted tool. I use LUKS, GELI, and ZFS. Unfortunately, I do not believe gparted nor Clonezilla support them: https://gparted.org/ https://www.clonezilla.org/ > DD is quite obviously an -extremely- low > level tool, and rather ham-fisted. Clonezilla can also copy individual > partitions. Me personally? I wouldn't use DD except to copy -everything- > between two drives having exactly the same number of sectors. I have an assortment of "16 GB" devices of varying sizes: 2020-06-12 20:58:04 dpchrist@tinkywinky ~/hardware $ cat `find samsung sandisk/ultra-fit -name fdisk.out` | egrep '14.. GiB' | perl -pe 's/.+ (\d+ sectors)/$1/' | sort | uniq 30031872 sectors 30375936 sectors 31266816 sectors 31277232 sectors When installing, I use 1 MiB + 14 GiB = 29362176 sectors and leave the rest as unused space. When imaging, I copy from sector 0 to the end of the last MBR partition (FreeBSD slice). I can put the image onto any of the above devices, and the device will boot and work as a system drive. > Note that > if you use DD to copy from a smaller drive to a bigger drive, then afterwards > the BIOS and everything else will tell you that the destination drive's > physical size is -smaller- than it actually is, i.e. exactly equal to the > size of the (smaller) source drive. I haven't seen that. I gather drive metadata and check it into CVS whenever I wipe a device, do a fresh install, take an image, or restore an image. I will pay more attention to 'cvs diff' in the future. I would be curious to see a demonstration console session. > Yet another reason not to use DD to copy either whole disks or partitions... > unless the size of the destination is -exactly- equal to that of the source. I agree that partition sizes must be identical for dd(1) to produce a correct result. But, I know that device sizes do not need to be identical if you use MBR partitioning and leave free space at the end. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 05:53:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554C032BA07 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 05:53:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kRbS39kNz4bZF for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 05:53:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: CR LF was: freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 23:53:21 -0600 References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <5FE406BC-7295-4A33-BF3C-B81AD4705E6C@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kRbS39kNz4bZF X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.45)[-0.449]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.61)[-0.615]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.04)[0.039]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 05:53:26 -0000 On 12 Jun 2020, at 13:32, Montgomery-Smith, Stephen = wrote: > It always seemed to me to be a waste of bits. Why not have one ASCII > code that did both? Then I found out why. >=20 > One time, I decided to try a LF CR at the end of a line instead of CR > LF. I found that the next character that was typed ended up in the > middle of the page, not on the far left as it should have been. What = I > realized was that the CR takes time to complete, because it has to > physically move the printer head to the left margin. The extra LF = gave > the printer the extra time it needed. Not sure about teletypes, butt here were other reasons to have separate = codes for line feeds and carriage return: strikeout and underline. This word is underlined ,,,,,,,,,,,,,__________=20 Where each , is a space. Same for strikethrough, m using a dash instead. --=20 We understand the importance of having the bondage between the parent and the child. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 06:48:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E774332D4A4 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 06:48:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kSqT5gWXz4f5H for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 06:48:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.114.95]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MRVy9-1jVsvz1J4P-00NNvd; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:48:46 +0200 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:48:45 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Kurt Hackenberg Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200613084845.a3ea685c.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3lWYmX6D41uq0P2WIpOAAuN5lqNI+iCMl0ZiPt1zVD4NY7yrokh LcOa6EOeBLXe5am3+O1w5lcFJYImSb4tC3mVo5cQcp/6UmbyghegMgIxb+vY1dBDbsqv4pa A87UWWo2cW+fyhNlJP7YOtOMiQXsnU7JxydbUBal54+4UHz44ZQbCXHzfvDuB/ZG2KJhX5S mufNUmWpLJ6HW+6YlQtgw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:hTPyKgLkn/I=:0vEfi2SmUcS7JAGryzgloB NaAqXG3Npc1ygybhQWsiJUVUSar6mN/nCVHqTMW8fkzlM43ZYx4aX8geWTZT3IntKJUy8tYtW UVVKvp4SILrwAeAHjfEgwbVDFYnbegC//aKTbrtXcSBiSTVt/5YnPea3WZd0VOzCLEnkQJHVw zyrazji679YLP3I+L4Zfo6eQMNBuKxbAcqKHeuLDHS+JP3TaCs4cGEwDCdVIgjCD8xZgwd/cC 0kdDOWliBUa21c8gr95/aUFoXBQc6Va1G1SxaQk0tXK8b3aHpVg+JRx+0SPR02P38KDk0Hfky +BWEwq3Zsi3OFc4GQ1X/A+ZyIpnwcA0/H4QMvHs52huP3Kb0ZCxC4ZgnPUyuOT1TGqXbmIvO+ z2paSV5YgaN8lSkkpFEcU5I8uveZMBYYucdQ9fGibnqxVVHoykJGhPHIlR7nCZnyd/o9d33eC +a5dqggUYk/9RY8njRmXm5n1vnO10PtZ4l5Guuqx+JyTZ5wNA4zDXEgLPdRl9kQAqMrapqYcI MhwxAkv/A8mzGYo7nzssdicW7todmrC++ahZ+3omx3eWBAadLN2SHoEjmoEEQcbhN6egbN1n1 ko+Bur+aAipd45e4R3Nw1gHV6DgHHY2+PScHWa7Gxp578x082TgcXL2/9bdvM8laQT6ELQpLt xGJbAmGPeHECLAqR7/7leR25WN93WvhmLdJ0fzTf9XPNt6qp62muV4Zrborfq0zo2uhPz+vK6 mV0vINuE3T98iBV4IiW6jiHwPQPijmhDsOcUtiFQY5wZmPkl6iw915oLkFPzJjY7Y+IzU56jC DtzRkirCwluY59BqywIKx+HralWc0nL3hkH4WndfXxb2I7F2yIQSp5yWS71YPxDWx/stza7 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kSqT5gWXz4f5H X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.71 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.33)[-0.327]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.114.95:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.11)[0.108]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.53)[0.531]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 06:48:55 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 14:58:16 -0400, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > On 2020-06-12 02:14, Polytropon wrote: > > >> But it's often done by redefining the ASCII characters carriage return > >> and line feed. Originally they meant, respectively, move the print head > >> to the left margin, and roll the paper up a line. > > > > Erm... no. The carriage return returns the _carriage_ to the > > first position (here: to the right), that's why it is called > > carriage return and not print head return. :-) > > > > On older electrical typewriters, you will see... > Electric typewriters didn't use ASCII. I didn't talk about the character encoding, but about why "carriage return" refers to the paper carriage, not to the printing head movement. Depending on what encoding they used (Baudot, CCITT, MTK) there usually were distinct codes for CR and LF, and separate keys. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 06:56:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E51C532DA13 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 06:56:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kT0l0kLDz4fZ7 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 06:56:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.114.95]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MPGBR-1jY5Tr1iRh-00Pcl4; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:56:50 +0200 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:56:50 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Montgomery-Smith, Stephen" Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: CR LF was: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200613085650.23eb7354.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> <2e6c6baf-9d87-2a02-00c3-578c6630f97f@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200611172537.2f7cdc07@archlinux> <20200612081401.f5a5c95b.freebsd@edvax.de> <4fff9eab-fa74-afe9-b046-9b0bcdb072ce@panix.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:URZUUH5eeZoaj6mSMYTdoBr1jS+EiPWgg2qXUIdX7URajKBrzfV Fh/UQadVu8DeZ+eXmQmB6p3qo39VpbeArwv7wl6SpF0FFhtMeCeGqYOGrk0Aga98Sy0j4MB eRuczPe/1TdgiQ1w+NzutOVJaEaKC8EAgXhgaizD21kxptUTCkMz8kibC9jAAQ6TerzCn3b n/10RRhL+Gx9rPoRhFnTQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:BxQvVidBJ8U=:h5f8gUsK2JSxBp6rpc3v5n ISDJqO3OaF+YTbURw7KJAJmr7UMux2/btZn18SGExm6hNogvfPt3lOL80xj12x47eCP1799Zg q5fL0XoxWltsMCBoPbL0YU8utTwQ6D4fpLPJHwXupNs3SwgjlWtldXDwzp5hNsG2CLE/ATi3n vUi+RagsUW+an7PZnvs7B20ZLs7bx5gOBeCuF6vHah2uSm3TQJwp6gGvGYNc+6OYX3gjtSwwq oombLNVWfe4/5X4HGa/OMNWTDMaoFDwU8LlW3QdXXBFbW1gf5VagJa48Q72bzhUbUI2cufKnz aJffPXVvtfyV4vjEE0DmW1GAY9RU2HIBdlOYuQMXdv7H/jdOr4JDvOf/A/7OoCZ7jy7ihXhJS Xd/OjSrtsOMkOWBFiJ+TbebpxEqsq06+tYr1gp/eXHpnfRIRouf9BZ1w/mHAxzJI6+n3tfJUq aw4MF7U/qLuaaXa1GAb3RZjS0jKhn0kqD4gc/LS2MOaTkxUQTyaUc+LrRtZ4aNdUFzMk3EQPz POwlDpt/iFB874/X6H9R01OwksIQAtXG7E6oiRjIdNd8Nie+fPEgoF2dUm5GTPY/jF0MiyEjb +J5bBBh8yE7LwolmjuwJeugDaR0GxpWRPBhx7OsIS0Kd6OgAdjOFNVFZ2OXvxe4BB+vFhNQLe u1elKqObt8HIO9a2JiQpD30zK8SllGM094ZLTBOOzaBOvHNRgfN7LtwLGpBVRlhwt2S9xJ5JM MfSTS3X3v4BF9OfvhEIzhibPXTwtKTLjxI5jIY29+e6ey4pf/AO6mDReNsMOYfLkGd1wht5DN 0A1e2R6KlKEFy188Xaw3VpkhZyqgIqUKJGG1h0AIDPMtIvwBaoLHv9jlXoaVjac7S6nTqa1 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kT0l0kLDz4fZ7 X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.90 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.57)[-0.570]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.114.95:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.14)[-0.143]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.21)[0.212]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 06:56:57 -0000 On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 19:32:54 +0000, Montgomery-Smith, Stephen wrote: > On 6/12/20 2:21 PM, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 19:58, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > >> > >> On 2020-06-12 02:14, Polytropon wrote: > >> > >>>> But it's often done by redefining the ASCII characters carriage return > >>>> and line feed. Originally they meant, respectively, move the print head > >>>> to the left margin, and roll the paper up a line. > >>> > >>> Erm... no. The carriage return returns the _carriage_ to the > >>> first position (here: to the right), that's why it is called > >>> carriage return and not print head return. :-) > >>> > >>> On older electrical typewriters, you will see... > >> Electric typewriters didn't use ASCII. > > > > Maybe the OP meant teleprinters, which did indeed use 5-bit and 7-bit > > ascii, still used today by hams in RTTY and other legacy digital > > modes. > > > > I used to have a teletype. On these devices, the CR would cause the > printer head to go to the left margin, and the LF would cause the page > to move up one line. > > It always seemed to me to be a waste of bits. Why not have one ASCII > code that did both? Then I found out why. > > One time, I decided to try a LF CR at the end of a line instead of CR > LF. I found that the next character that was typed ended up in the > middle of the page, not on the far left as it should have been. What I > realized was that the CR takes time to complete, because it has to > physically move the printer head to the left margin. The extra LF gave > the printer the extra time it needed. > > So I don't know about typewriters, but teletypes definitely used CR and > LF for two different purposes. And it really was necessary to have CR > LF at the ends of the lines. This was also true for teletypes with a fixed "type basket" and a moving carriage. Additionally, teletype operation guides encourage the use of CR LF as you described, and state that multiple line vertical spacing is to be done using CR LF LF LF LF as needed. That's why there are two keys on the traditional TTY keyboard. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 08:00:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4494632E7F7 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:00:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kVPf0Qwyz3TNN for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:00:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:c4ea:bd49:619b:6cb3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A577F2F60D for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:00:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from liminal.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:5507:800d:c5ec:bd02]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 78D6B206C for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:00:01 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/78D6B206C; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> From: Matthew Seaman Autocrypt: addr=matthew@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJIL80BEADi7/VbnnErDU6pjEhI/SzEZ/HbDRkJ5g7HroAtqIRm6nj8ZwOAgZ/2ZnWn 5F+fXTuLsG0FLNtkd17FoVcuCi5e/GPliXI5cmamV7E1Yz4T8UsJ7RQolimyxVexccKd16Tc AA7B9bFlJSKkBUSD0buj7VjT07xWhRzu6Vgi5r0UjLALYJz977uZA0F1aOGOXREDEAOhdcNc kSNjynqAwDA6dCT1Elpi4key1fYjv4jyDF+GU/YXul2Y/rguA8FCkHd9vyym5eAsLQ5mG00V V9fkEHIpH5KorNVnl/ufHXnkZqmHAZVpFDcrshb7aZ/pL45PXyWgLj+e6etelgj3a2bZi0JF cVdXCnBZVP2oIyYblM11ugTbfCwodORU8a5KfPeztMdAtDr4e+32NTrPdPi5rLT+GUsYz+PL 3A3m3u8bdsFp40DlIrBtSByVjqERxcfhphrEB4J8BXHUG7OAtXkZMlW/PGKDwXJq0O6Z5Tcg YHAoEiSWbXiexHgXNJyP+sqnIlhLWhSJGeJ+C83wqI6oYlZUCW00NkPxcIHnQPV/z+5wQVci TMyaWC2YCIHz4Ljs+TnwWMz0E8PNFDfHVbQ0W4PRGV7gRAqxfL+yKufauIEGbEq8rNDbSwL3 bcUCxR4ZDlaUEUwT4J8naf7rjdgiEYHs2Ig3jeK1+ER4FPG1sQARAQABtCRNYXR0aGV3IFNl YW1hbiA8bWF0dGhld0BmcmVlYnNkLm9yZz6JAlQEEwEKAD4CGwMFCwkIBwMFFQoJCAsFFgMC AQACHgECF4AWIQRyz6whebywJLW1RZADb2ye5/OevwUCXp/jFQUJDjo4SAAKCRADb2ye5/Oe v5lwD/0bhCaxMGrWb1PpmvqwARJRcqcXJOLUJXUvjKrMp97OtbGOucgsmTvBzXR7XaZrW/Y4 t5kquSg39ZellWjeVn2GUc4Cql+IPlGkxYiJu39dHu66iOhgpfOzIZQL7NxFysc+bvY0/XO6 sfNNUcIQ0ywmiOQedoxmcJs/gJo4mAZsf9ltLnlDeCTG8OqsjAKUsxatoGHvZ3wvFeEfdYjJ 9BO1haLm5EnnEnMlmgfopR3oW7oV8p8lIVFwzeHJTCVOv3xoo5o0kXK+YHdOLYWcPM9hiMDq u5AGbfPWw8IsDWFjeCUcgNADCG/DKJ98ld6R7QjDCOh8waKQDSStPxF71YwtUKRMCm7JayrM GhIlFxCfp5P9ALdiTsOctW5ONBBGvyCd3ggVikCxvsIP7rmt+yh5Bd6rz+Q9z/RikugN8ZRA 4g2TwDaM36obseh5VyDSlOkWpIJ7Mi5g8TWnhwy2KGeVvuQh2jeeMzCUBFQ3cV9sifAkcjoK ldsanwjKzqMT8Tf671zALHeWj1VtRjiRGDBPpTPeA/bmqZLAL5kqUejYZeqI7rkUN4cGYW59 o8P9F0GDcDBhoYRQOxPcm+eJMOjr8oDxwfGUJN5QYPEaEXxLfypSYrK8qem5Lp4uIdJfTLrT atLU97HL+POyyhDnvfob54OlY2BqUYL173MpHt17J7kCDQRSUUKTARAAt6FH3HbDFoumOWUu JlDgOQs3wdp2n3IKv7gqzbDdgaoWW7hDTvjO0Cb6p2PGUKEoxMQQoIdDO0pQ9rgr4Sh4VSVC 9WMO/fUwqdrIs2nACIg4OwvNhIccW08S+N72f+yuXWOQ/dv79cwruE26/BEXgIP09MYcOWwc UCXzOoUR3er+jzcsN9uFjcsBVUJLIEru1askHRzCUa5P9S9GAFBwN49HC5IJWEzdLP27FjjO G5UG3+QZahHrjG1i6S3bIYXtaGsqNyfkp9Is7Wpj2kk+s9Ua+YMG/V5YVlbANIexa1yr75p1 W9biqXpCWnB3TaHSfI0G1t9w8K2qhR/Z1/YLIcRzZ2aHJnvbzJYw5Cs1jfNpFytbASsxj0rb ReouftlBvVWFRxsZ+oG1ZXL64/SVKMZAnfBNxd1uajp+HtoQtYoTu88la6zcdnAhOD5JdOnt N2VF8iQnDfPgkidfuSZ1C059xaRPTSRJBgMRDtOlDxgz7Pxx/7L2jwxRY1dq6NGioflY7CCp Gc7bi1K6xnf3lBL8X2nGpRAVsg9Lx1ShIWkgNbTAcPXpXcXlJ1xqz8HS8Twadh6gIfk/RNch BIED9lkVCKHYp/XQb8T8vMwn/kTWUm5WlPkQUFQN4D1b6+dJw4bwn/wiRS8did1MU1OytJB6 tljfEUCx0uKkzqr+33MAEQEAAYkEuwQYAQoAJgIbAhYhBHLPrCF5vLAktbVFkANvbJ7n856/ BQJen+OUBQkOMSYBAonBvSAEGQEKAGYFAlJRQpNfFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3Rh dGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0Yz MDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp5OdNFg//ZqeVdGoKkMvALPzZjGz84+6l0kcM xSN4TfWmec0YpSmDEzCw4/SZoGqHlZb8lcTevmNrNXg6c+wVw6P+Ycl20Nzb98Kt9C5sz+zG VmPPK+3O9gaPnEqlIKnnbxKXXNHQdd8Mf0UTpifMqX0IkWOqhe/tQKGoQ9+feKvLIaToIe/N josW6vJ9YAgFqZ0015zwbElhMNFmgDMOI2SgjBZ9ngP1U82Mqb7/7G9GxHtnwuJBSnPJgN8t av2O9uWPC0N8deyZBH4y9ERBPTFMc46wjkW030olcq7g4hZ55rpPIEyGQZCq4u1gGibbiQJZ EyUQT7BJm70/PeUr3uNjPlQODV/lF5TBvqGHEmlSQfo6Yb/QQx07CK9bvhUSO2XP3ybS8Jwo MZlgZzZcjiPiQF9ot6152/Cp/XrsKgtk+fg5ARZpyywRlQk1JCHRZvhgXIxqNYA04uwdPFcL I4vPiDaLS8mhXHLRZsSpHmIBqqrnam5Lq7iDc39UZrSJMM40oy3iAOI2B7AOCbzxRuEplJd3 E/tEqrnFGcPVN+h52ka74lEyfkwA2RrASWJJcXLN3/VsizEj8okepefzjU/UPnU8sirzeWWo 8Z4uKddovk//NwAPUJbee4vZLjYE6MWdpEoZP9CZXbtIPWuc9Djg16aHOgv44JPokDMaHA27 A4rw2KwJEANvbJ7n856/CZQP/1XGLC6fXn9SsllmWbsBjgERmqqNEz1c7uxqdNcPc3v/p5hG vuJmbg76H+dj9ZiHvStnSg7TQ73TtDbQNlnnAuyN53iYDzDGk8ZkQtWviwvbs1G4VbgB8DA5 Wdpjx/nH5vOpKB+6d9/KPZdjpHJVQydAbEqf6alRyMx2COBKzUg8COTQQtktO7fuXf1jzlOs OiSuHYTgRq7HUoYTvs8S62W2szMdYEBDJ+/j+9q24sKDpJYEnCKfirX5yFeknkRQUUz1Zsyi thnOPgJI1j5kdClSAA6q5LwDorHhzW4LVATqd4ATSeM9yTKSPbskquC3olamX3Bbfl8bT4NP Eot1d8A2FWehpWPrIvl2Tg4nI2/9krighKrrQBkC91A1bJPg4td3msCvrYRkiVFVFNHIO2uD XtTJ+heUmvNM4XlvUTXo7BE9Ew3yLg2B+Ipo5FVJJVPvKfWxVGKVVxBzMhbPYmbwNxE+NKZa J51Tdl+KeDXniadB5DMX/er7bhmG44dQUvz3kDYAX8c1i9vCxVQWNxcV98/ZO5RtXXZxokdh 8IMjqGonk9XlLi5GLbCMww2pQVqWVuQfLZTeVAzklB3dAj5ByJL1WbdIXMekMDWYXaEc+TAy tbaPz1YLJRz2s0tFOULw4LiVQqMobRRl1anfoEiUrSHHeTV1DrA+W1uQuf+cuQINBFJRQrgB EADUWFag56O3CaycayGght1rYWYz7P9/3s7OlqAuEAId8/kSz8jXzAb/Qb6t0247a2MD0gxn jgZQy2OiQOsOTrc31L6tUrLVATL5Q3oKIh9hOlNMA+cRjsgY3UmMaSw+Gftp64EJDBQwBXWT 7CSUEJw4PqzwMPiTHRkmqQfzdfNagFJVqZ0e+cznoLzI9WvkccwLW1kicBYEysX5yOXUQ9/P cKqRWcbxLFznJ16JsxL1DeUct5WRWUxECY2rM0t+AkNRa3NpzskiMUSzFhiGmJo9yyy1RS4d rjMhEn/IcM1sO21ZF/WWuUVkul65qngFnaFDDRQ5lU3AagWhLhmppmK/yabSVfqz38B1APoB WuldYprslTbAOJrL2xFtiH7m9VYbP2aGdwr9V/C27kiNWnm/lYzP9Z+dTFkxw2V+BOjiLWzD DD6pEE7YDhiPyoopadOyXtoJf3aK1OI+DBu3piBA/CDDDvavruM+3mjxUxcOo8w8rMaJzDUD LG0yOyhKWef3UW5ly3CKXe8+m/MZe0GavNBJt0ObLQpPmnn9b2kP/xS0ssszo8uzlfSMiGi9 AedAoRQ7vFXfI0MBb0M8gJ6Ht/+j1b5Al9ABeeA3PRuu+aBJwBRdFp4AV5BsCa0Qb3aqVJUP uBvtY56aWWB9sSfQ1qeu/loRxkJbHhaPJswscQARAQABiQI8BBgBCgAmAhsMFiEEcs+sIXm8 sCS1tUWQA29snufznr8FAl6f45QFCQ4xJdwACgkQA29snufznr9gXRAAoM1Vj0WDukryz52s MM4wPD6ny/uGaL0mTscWvvZZ7sXhJSgdLkYYZeXRuDOZN6K8vCxFB1frploGOHY6z5U3CW/l sEIW0BvEoYi5yLneCIJU2M5Y/8+35ffdV103de+RXP4VpAVf3kNdle7z6xpO452fhw2ymrAV +PgLlRBNVVgPG6NCrSpwLE5B63+guJzwhJ8dQGgi+TQTGHdWz66UQLig1KRON/KFtOlDCJci YLYmnnXIqb60JD8oePfjgyFTHEdXcEllsHtRhtE81Aw6fMeOZigxKaDcDzopS+8RWSHxrFL9 qwCNWL9KycIu2usa5qxBSVf4Q9hr2vFVuQZHnVDvuM6RzJBgD+j7o7xA7DWGv1njPJyoCCmV SRz4XuV2Y2jonNuEipsaftzMFlIkg4yg0s+eknh0cv0IjFTas5FMGX7hQLClnsCy8rzCDzKC J4jNALJ22sdft1CsZjOz7x+aOg5ypDOfR29PmF/gygk2dgt9HjMHcYlOkgsbY0/PwxNIpgYM xI7iELFa7W9ZNZfcWDSaP/VQfsL2/vOHBZzEmqmalQHp5QeZszGDTwr7yR886viXbLV40bBs ZXyVm2yodwsT3B1swxMGASV6ZG9p0bURekwyuN1zjCf2cIr6SrU8gTZjQyAlfDtU+dhvVCfw D2UGgsFXnd7KkBLadQs= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wCyZAYxfU4ZCpB04Q1HLAz98IxMxqqrma" X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:00:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --wCyZAYxfU4ZCpB04Q1HLAz98IxMxqqrma Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="zEktZu8Vk4VuBv0DD3wYSvo4q5K4JqNbe" --zEktZu8Vk4VuBv0DD3wYSvo4q5K4JqNbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/06/2020 10:03, Ede Wolf wrote: > linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is there= > an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? Yes. It's exactly the same. {{{ lucid-nonsense:~:% cat /etc/os-release NAME=3DFreeBSD VERSION=3D12.1-STABLE VERSION_ID=3D12.1 ID=3Dfreebsd ANSI_COLOR=3D"0;31" PRETTY_NAME=3D"FreeBSD 12.1-STABLE" CPE_NAME=3Dcpe:/o:freebsd:freebsd:12.1 HOME_URL=3Dhttps://FreeBSD.org/ BUG_REPORT_URL=3Dhttps://bugs.FreeBSD.org/ }}} Matthew --zEktZu8Vk4VuBv0DD3wYSvo4q5K4JqNbe-- --wCyZAYxfU4ZCpB04Q1HLAz98IxMxqqrma Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEGfFU7L8RLlBUTj8wAFE/EOCp5OcFAl7kh4BfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5 RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0YzMDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp 5Od5+BAAt5liaicQXlOCwzQbA0Y1hnjLnYhioeSkDdVsCW7xoXmjX4w8GJUhaNuU RAd74RKdYHbu7Wd9nR/EXK4lVBOUBxqUOSLfe+2RrQysPSGNZuiy60XjxhpLPRNY XhADuOtjUeoBzMgQNCiSd79u9MkpCwWDfeISEeK5v7U+D+3yB3WhdaMmUe9XNgb9 CKHWlW9FEVcJ0TvWt1MwJYyzhBT2jp4JMe7e38u7uDNsjaA79dq1q2eBlp8LXfxD cQ7zKJV8TTAgxVqIxBWqPLoXv8SB8bhjqRoY6nxCTrNLWA1GkFNpGfUp2LJVRt3k 26nBA5wp01WCaPVWsl6l5jba7TEk+nI9U6kHLf4311/97ocodKqGmQgttjN+3J/E WJycYRLNvwsm9i7VJszM4qZlN36D7rCoV0EZCWnn1Ma5ztNr4oA3EN2XkU5X/50M b4Z006PzXmMnvdAqnrQpvNykJtaP+h7lSxJoMyeI2aZGCauIGMBQ7JSwa2wEk9rY qUdPOJsZRZWaYrPbaNqWhZDCGjtIJE/VjLc/D1d7esMg+r4CMCz/vGh2lEWF0Lx+ U89zitnqPoI22PLG9x18XLIVDVUlxOzIod1ODR1TzBcW7spkIqq2CAeeDEmAKu2i OBqi2m1sGPrfm7rrxR8jLJPhCIw5yhaJ92RpiLUDMu6TqIV+1F0= =kWny -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wCyZAYxfU4ZCpB04Q1HLAz98IxMxqqrma-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 08:17:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA26632F587 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:17:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000254ddb.7e72333defe0cb9fbe11b5bc17e2e05f@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kVnb1LyVz3V4q for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:17:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000254ddb.7e72333defe0cb9fbe11b5bc17e2e05f@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592036243; x=1594628243; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=1VczAAhNpcAUi7QY3Vyu/8BIG8/QsJ7vpUfNbRWaMVg=; b=f5002vDxPGEkhoMLcZJPjV5zcPnfZKt4VKyBLabFbclEZfXg+5qAYY+Y2eB35jMI10OPr9n+1fR9qXp9D1E6SUSoElaPmQUJonGspL5JBpHqvXrq9YbpWJgtOiisAAITrv0Alc2xVOS82l/qEIMwOOcFB5bTsBVyHD22FFbPU5k= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDAyNTRkZGIuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 13 Jun 2020 04:17:18 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 13 Jun 2020 04:17:16 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jk1Lm-000CRU-80; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:17:14 +0100 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:17:14 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Matthew Seaman Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? Message-Id: <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kVnb1LyVz3V4q X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=f5002vDx; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20000254ddb.7e72333defe0cb9fbe11b5bc17e2e05f@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20000254ddb.7e72333defe0cb9fbe11b5bc17e2e05f@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.35 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.980]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.989]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.68)[-0.683]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000254ddb.7e72333defe0cb9fbe11b5bc17e2e05f@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000254ddb.7e72333defe0cb9fbe11b5bc17e2e05f@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:17:24 -0000 On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +0100 Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 12/06/2020 10:03, Ede Wolf wrote: > > linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is there > > an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? > > Yes. It's exactly the same. Since when ? There isn't one on my 12.1p3 box. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 08:26:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C317432F66D for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:26:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kW0Z1pj8z3VgT; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:26:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.dev) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59391341; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 04:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 13 Jun 2020 04:20:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yuripv.dev; h= subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=K +4jeOr2F1K9wH0gEb8u/oI91qT6Gbxqpa1Yjec63ZY=; b=JJSMnpmKotpIcoqyM hoFxF0+IgLba8VDwSYRDxzRwxKrrThjFisFKTf9bnmwGdIoIMoObU1jkAN4KioXD IJYTLVQA9pVBw1s9BjkE8ofd/Yql09vl36/+stODM/hCadv6CDbK/OZNxi5oaF0D 6f1LHaYRUoYzdp3aKkhxDaolkeaPIeQ/Se+DIbAW7dxQfNsXrki1FFA/4Oeo8/hG LyDwbgalYqsFW13Mor90Px8uFUw0JN0ZYpQ8ZtYOvFxzjoHKztVP9nk2iC6/1JuC OWrrAH/OTsJNa0wLi3ygSGSKWVz+/9Ub1NmId75qm/3HTaPg0HP1AGsKy07lNhPN RljGA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=K+4jeOr2F1K9wH0gEb8u/oI91qT6Gbxqpa1Yjec63 ZY=; b=LP1oZfyQ8gkIuI/8PyoQ2DMXATDgyHhlf6fO6fwFnW0zwjCQVo+IWa0N7 qd+J/Z5nbXmL3j37zkXJ5Im3iTV88EbdiB9rzO4xe6x3reDA9Omg1Y91OjVYdOYT LzLQWF3mgpkoANV5F1I7tzvrMqXTwjm7/H/gWT5UhQFuFxgB/cff5uaV6urRwGgQ x6LA8K2xAYjIGXVqsr4NBKhY4bIAhXbG0MAsP1KS9iG+urxKZ6B0Yt9TlxQTYFLG zCMt0arhGI+T2mkC0cv4prgaKT1dLWdx4qOPliCp08RRTsm1DwS/bczk4C1piTfB 7dUbzRHRdMd8q1q0AOwzdUj4RIUdA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudeifedgtdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepjghurhhi ucfrrghnkhhovhcuoeihuhhrihhpvheshihurhhiphhvrdguvghvqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeffhedvkeegieejveelvdffgfevueevgffgjefhleeuueevtedvvddvgfeiteff teenucfkphepledurddvgedtrdduvdegrddufeejnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhephihurhhiphhvseihuhhrihhpvhdruggvvh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.6] (unknown [91.240.124.137]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0E1453280065; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 04:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? To: Steve O'Hara-Smith , Matthew Seaman Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: <800241a1-ce3a-ce19-63f8-e9a77032a7f1@yuripv.dev> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 11:20:09 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kW0Z1pj8z3VgT X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yuripv.dev header.s=fm1 header.b=JJSMnpmK; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=LP1oZfyQ; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yuripv@yuripv.dev designates 64.147.123.20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yuripv@yuripv.dev X-Spamd-Result: default: False [13.23 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:64.147.123.20:c]; SEM_URIBL_FRESH15(3.00)[yuripv.dev:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yuripv.dev:+,messagingengine.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.00)[-0.002]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.123.20:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[91.240.124.137:received]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[yuripv.dev:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_CSS(4.00)[91.240.124.137:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.61)[-0.607]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yuripv.dev]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.94)[0.936]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[64.147.123.20:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:26:54 -0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +0100 > Matthew Seaman wrote: > >> On 12/06/2020 10:03, Ede Wolf wrote: >>> linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is there >>> an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? >> >> Yes. It's exactly the same. > > Since when ? There isn't one on my 12.1p3 box. It seems to be only in stable/12 and head at the moment, and it's /var/run/os-release by default. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 08:27:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1E332FA2C for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:27:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kW1W6Jjlz3Vh8; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:27:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.117.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 79FB52FCA1; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:27:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from liminal.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:5507:800d:c5ec:bd02]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A83920D4; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:27:42 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/6A83920D4; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? To: Steve O'Hara-Smith Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> From: Matthew Seaman Autocrypt: addr=matthew@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJIL80BEADi7/VbnnErDU6pjEhI/SzEZ/HbDRkJ5g7HroAtqIRm6nj8ZwOAgZ/2ZnWn 5F+fXTuLsG0FLNtkd17FoVcuCi5e/GPliXI5cmamV7E1Yz4T8UsJ7RQolimyxVexccKd16Tc AA7B9bFlJSKkBUSD0buj7VjT07xWhRzu6Vgi5r0UjLALYJz977uZA0F1aOGOXREDEAOhdcNc kSNjynqAwDA6dCT1Elpi4key1fYjv4jyDF+GU/YXul2Y/rguA8FCkHd9vyym5eAsLQ5mG00V V9fkEHIpH5KorNVnl/ufHXnkZqmHAZVpFDcrshb7aZ/pL45PXyWgLj+e6etelgj3a2bZi0JF cVdXCnBZVP2oIyYblM11ugTbfCwodORU8a5KfPeztMdAtDr4e+32NTrPdPi5rLT+GUsYz+PL 3A3m3u8bdsFp40DlIrBtSByVjqERxcfhphrEB4J8BXHUG7OAtXkZMlW/PGKDwXJq0O6Z5Tcg YHAoEiSWbXiexHgXNJyP+sqnIlhLWhSJGeJ+C83wqI6oYlZUCW00NkPxcIHnQPV/z+5wQVci TMyaWC2YCIHz4Ljs+TnwWMz0E8PNFDfHVbQ0W4PRGV7gRAqxfL+yKufauIEGbEq8rNDbSwL3 bcUCxR4ZDlaUEUwT4J8naf7rjdgiEYHs2Ig3jeK1+ER4FPG1sQARAQABtCRNYXR0aGV3IFNl YW1hbiA8bWF0dGhld0BmcmVlYnNkLm9yZz6JAlQEEwEKAD4CGwMFCwkIBwMFFQoJCAsFFgMC AQACHgECF4AWIQRyz6whebywJLW1RZADb2ye5/OevwUCXp/jFQUJDjo4SAAKCRADb2ye5/Oe v5lwD/0bhCaxMGrWb1PpmvqwARJRcqcXJOLUJXUvjKrMp97OtbGOucgsmTvBzXR7XaZrW/Y4 t5kquSg39ZellWjeVn2GUc4Cql+IPlGkxYiJu39dHu66iOhgpfOzIZQL7NxFysc+bvY0/XO6 sfNNUcIQ0ywmiOQedoxmcJs/gJo4mAZsf9ltLnlDeCTG8OqsjAKUsxatoGHvZ3wvFeEfdYjJ 9BO1haLm5EnnEnMlmgfopR3oW7oV8p8lIVFwzeHJTCVOv3xoo5o0kXK+YHdOLYWcPM9hiMDq u5AGbfPWw8IsDWFjeCUcgNADCG/DKJ98ld6R7QjDCOh8waKQDSStPxF71YwtUKRMCm7JayrM GhIlFxCfp5P9ALdiTsOctW5ONBBGvyCd3ggVikCxvsIP7rmt+yh5Bd6rz+Q9z/RikugN8ZRA 4g2TwDaM36obseh5VyDSlOkWpIJ7Mi5g8TWnhwy2KGeVvuQh2jeeMzCUBFQ3cV9sifAkcjoK ldsanwjKzqMT8Tf671zALHeWj1VtRjiRGDBPpTPeA/bmqZLAL5kqUejYZeqI7rkUN4cGYW59 o8P9F0GDcDBhoYRQOxPcm+eJMOjr8oDxwfGUJN5QYPEaEXxLfypSYrK8qem5Lp4uIdJfTLrT atLU97HL+POyyhDnvfob54OlY2BqUYL173MpHt17J7kCDQRSUUKTARAAt6FH3HbDFoumOWUu JlDgOQs3wdp2n3IKv7gqzbDdgaoWW7hDTvjO0Cb6p2PGUKEoxMQQoIdDO0pQ9rgr4Sh4VSVC 9WMO/fUwqdrIs2nACIg4OwvNhIccW08S+N72f+yuXWOQ/dv79cwruE26/BEXgIP09MYcOWwc UCXzOoUR3er+jzcsN9uFjcsBVUJLIEru1askHRzCUa5P9S9GAFBwN49HC5IJWEzdLP27FjjO G5UG3+QZahHrjG1i6S3bIYXtaGsqNyfkp9Is7Wpj2kk+s9Ua+YMG/V5YVlbANIexa1yr75p1 W9biqXpCWnB3TaHSfI0G1t9w8K2qhR/Z1/YLIcRzZ2aHJnvbzJYw5Cs1jfNpFytbASsxj0rb ReouftlBvVWFRxsZ+oG1ZXL64/SVKMZAnfBNxd1uajp+HtoQtYoTu88la6zcdnAhOD5JdOnt N2VF8iQnDfPgkidfuSZ1C059xaRPTSRJBgMRDtOlDxgz7Pxx/7L2jwxRY1dq6NGioflY7CCp Gc7bi1K6xnf3lBL8X2nGpRAVsg9Lx1ShIWkgNbTAcPXpXcXlJ1xqz8HS8Twadh6gIfk/RNch BIED9lkVCKHYp/XQb8T8vMwn/kTWUm5WlPkQUFQN4D1b6+dJw4bwn/wiRS8did1MU1OytJB6 tljfEUCx0uKkzqr+33MAEQEAAYkEuwQYAQoAJgIbAhYhBHLPrCF5vLAktbVFkANvbJ7n856/ BQJen+OUBQkOMSYBAonBvSAEGQEKAGYFAlJRQpNfFIAAAAAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3Rh dGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0Yz MDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp5OdNFg//ZqeVdGoKkMvALPzZjGz84+6l0kcM xSN4TfWmec0YpSmDEzCw4/SZoGqHlZb8lcTevmNrNXg6c+wVw6P+Ycl20Nzb98Kt9C5sz+zG VmPPK+3O9gaPnEqlIKnnbxKXXNHQdd8Mf0UTpifMqX0IkWOqhe/tQKGoQ9+feKvLIaToIe/N josW6vJ9YAgFqZ0015zwbElhMNFmgDMOI2SgjBZ9ngP1U82Mqb7/7G9GxHtnwuJBSnPJgN8t av2O9uWPC0N8deyZBH4y9ERBPTFMc46wjkW030olcq7g4hZ55rpPIEyGQZCq4u1gGibbiQJZ EyUQT7BJm70/PeUr3uNjPlQODV/lF5TBvqGHEmlSQfo6Yb/QQx07CK9bvhUSO2XP3ybS8Jwo MZlgZzZcjiPiQF9ot6152/Cp/XrsKgtk+fg5ARZpyywRlQk1JCHRZvhgXIxqNYA04uwdPFcL I4vPiDaLS8mhXHLRZsSpHmIBqqrnam5Lq7iDc39UZrSJMM40oy3iAOI2B7AOCbzxRuEplJd3 E/tEqrnFGcPVN+h52ka74lEyfkwA2RrASWJJcXLN3/VsizEj8okepefzjU/UPnU8sirzeWWo 8Z4uKddovk//NwAPUJbee4vZLjYE6MWdpEoZP9CZXbtIPWuc9Djg16aHOgv44JPokDMaHA27 A4rw2KwJEANvbJ7n856/CZQP/1XGLC6fXn9SsllmWbsBjgERmqqNEz1c7uxqdNcPc3v/p5hG vuJmbg76H+dj9ZiHvStnSg7TQ73TtDbQNlnnAuyN53iYDzDGk8ZkQtWviwvbs1G4VbgB8DA5 Wdpjx/nH5vOpKB+6d9/KPZdjpHJVQydAbEqf6alRyMx2COBKzUg8COTQQtktO7fuXf1jzlOs OiSuHYTgRq7HUoYTvs8S62W2szMdYEBDJ+/j+9q24sKDpJYEnCKfirX5yFeknkRQUUz1Zsyi thnOPgJI1j5kdClSAA6q5LwDorHhzW4LVATqd4ATSeM9yTKSPbskquC3olamX3Bbfl8bT4NP Eot1d8A2FWehpWPrIvl2Tg4nI2/9krighKrrQBkC91A1bJPg4td3msCvrYRkiVFVFNHIO2uD XtTJ+heUmvNM4XlvUTXo7BE9Ew3yLg2B+Ipo5FVJJVPvKfWxVGKVVxBzMhbPYmbwNxE+NKZa J51Tdl+KeDXniadB5DMX/er7bhmG44dQUvz3kDYAX8c1i9vCxVQWNxcV98/ZO5RtXXZxokdh 8IMjqGonk9XlLi5GLbCMww2pQVqWVuQfLZTeVAzklB3dAj5ByJL1WbdIXMekMDWYXaEc+TAy tbaPz1YLJRz2s0tFOULw4LiVQqMobRRl1anfoEiUrSHHeTV1DrA+W1uQuf+cuQINBFJRQrgB EADUWFag56O3CaycayGght1rYWYz7P9/3s7OlqAuEAId8/kSz8jXzAb/Qb6t0247a2MD0gxn jgZQy2OiQOsOTrc31L6tUrLVATL5Q3oKIh9hOlNMA+cRjsgY3UmMaSw+Gftp64EJDBQwBXWT 7CSUEJw4PqzwMPiTHRkmqQfzdfNagFJVqZ0e+cznoLzI9WvkccwLW1kicBYEysX5yOXUQ9/P cKqRWcbxLFznJ16JsxL1DeUct5WRWUxECY2rM0t+AkNRa3NpzskiMUSzFhiGmJo9yyy1RS4d rjMhEn/IcM1sO21ZF/WWuUVkul65qngFnaFDDRQ5lU3AagWhLhmppmK/yabSVfqz38B1APoB WuldYprslTbAOJrL2xFtiH7m9VYbP2aGdwr9V/C27kiNWnm/lYzP9Z+dTFkxw2V+BOjiLWzD DD6pEE7YDhiPyoopadOyXtoJf3aK1OI+DBu3piBA/CDDDvavruM+3mjxUxcOo8w8rMaJzDUD LG0yOyhKWef3UW5ly3CKXe8+m/MZe0GavNBJt0ObLQpPmnn9b2kP/xS0ssszo8uzlfSMiGi9 AedAoRQ7vFXfI0MBb0M8gJ6Ht/+j1b5Al9ABeeA3PRuu+aBJwBRdFp4AV5BsCa0Qb3aqVJUP uBvtY56aWWB9sSfQ1qeu/loRxkJbHhaPJswscQARAQABiQI8BBgBCgAmAhsMFiEEcs+sIXm8 sCS1tUWQA29snufznr8FAl6f45QFCQ4xJdwACgkQA29snufznr9gXRAAoM1Vj0WDukryz52s MM4wPD6ny/uGaL0mTscWvvZZ7sXhJSgdLkYYZeXRuDOZN6K8vCxFB1frploGOHY6z5U3CW/l sEIW0BvEoYi5yLneCIJU2M5Y/8+35ffdV103de+RXP4VpAVf3kNdle7z6xpO452fhw2ymrAV +PgLlRBNVVgPG6NCrSpwLE5B63+guJzwhJ8dQGgi+TQTGHdWz66UQLig1KRON/KFtOlDCJci YLYmnnXIqb60JD8oePfjgyFTHEdXcEllsHtRhtE81Aw6fMeOZigxKaDcDzopS+8RWSHxrFL9 qwCNWL9KycIu2usa5qxBSVf4Q9hr2vFVuQZHnVDvuM6RzJBgD+j7o7xA7DWGv1njPJyoCCmV SRz4XuV2Y2jonNuEipsaftzMFlIkg4yg0s+eknh0cv0IjFTas5FMGX7hQLClnsCy8rzCDzKC J4jNALJ22sdft1CsZjOz7x+aOg5ypDOfR29PmF/gygk2dgt9HjMHcYlOkgsbY0/PwxNIpgYM xI7iELFa7W9ZNZfcWDSaP/VQfsL2/vOHBZzEmqmalQHp5QeZszGDTwr7yR886viXbLV40bBs ZXyVm2yodwsT3B1swxMGASV6ZG9p0bURekwyuN1zjCf2cIr6SrU8gTZjQyAlfDtU+dhvVCfw D2UGgsFXnd7KkBLadQs= Message-ID: <77a4e519-deda-9113-e0d8-b7ae0a8d1f13@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:27:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0OhiyNTkqzHMB7Qog9j0k6kb4nrxLDGV5" X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:27:44 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --0OhiyNTkqzHMB7Qog9j0k6kb4nrxLDGV5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="D0Ps4GQy2pIkZYifVy7XwK5dP5QB7ra2D" --D0Ps4GQy2pIkZYifVy7XwK5dP5QB7ra2D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 13/06/2020 09:17, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +0100 > Matthew Seaman wrote: >=20 >> On 12/06/2020 10:03, Ede Wolf wrote: >>> linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is the= re >>> an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? >> >> Yes. It's exactly the same. >=20 > Since when ? There isn't one on my 12.1p3 box. >=20 Yeah. It's been a thing for about 6 months. https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/libexec/rc/rc.d/os-release?view=3Dlo= g Cheers, Matthew --D0Ps4GQy2pIkZYifVy7XwK5dP5QB7ra2D-- --0OhiyNTkqzHMB7Qog9j0k6kb4nrxLDGV5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEGfFU7L8RLlBUTj8wAFE/EOCp5OcFAl7kjf5fFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5 RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0YzMDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp 5OcVTA/+Kf2qrgNoeD0ree6LapLZ0jI8smmQFzlAcQg7LIyC2459MtDHND58J8pB nsbrm+EllZkWGJBl8N1/+KKXGrDOyhXLeG/EHZux2j93Mf0CpxG5iBG6Fxq96Ce1 1k2wmqw3DMsS8OoCg7fi97MqoRHRDoTdAgFEczFKOqbH5fY8GABbldxltZEGL1tF PlmJdm1gP3SqJ0iEHr9WYnSJAIVbF4x2X958mEDoRVyPLqbs8/DYvd0IlB6r27Sd eAmRTBE9iy+Hztx4Wiy5zXqW4rfVULWvQ2NP4n4S/wvMocnrp/RazlXERahrLpmy qlaqMXL4udLsml6nKLWxLz9w52ftx75tCRJbdYCMzImyPclxugeYiX+VU1UCd9dI pa5S8kzzxNHKp8EuJFR9o9VWuwoKdzAv8Xp53RYmre6PIXAtQDgs5mvucxh4SJRi 7RJdyFVgFW8j9UrsDB2H/TTv2jJgt/v/kbW4sWusY9U4FWwByQ+v+NFTENq5zqNi RR6pXoNHMq1XoyMwEY5tW87tdxpZ5/m3ClBsW2+FMaFmsa6wiUAkkHSFLSoyHVn1 EmoMJWDhp1Wc/0DnPF9+7tLXzJNgJxT3+GXjJoneotGXmkzY0YUQHsi9e+4AYBo8 B0KxU0y3qLKl9BIb0HMIeU2vrDxIAq94oD15dVXEbieYzV73RBU= =rncL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0OhiyNTkqzHMB7Qog9j0k6kb4nrxLDGV5-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 13:02:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BC13378AA for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:02:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lysfjord.daniel@smokepit.net) Received: from smtp-out.smokepit.net (smtp-out.smokepit.net [18.200.56.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kd712WCWz433J for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:02:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lysfjord.daniel@smokepit.net) Received: from cm-84.215.44.163.getinternet.no ([84.215.44.163] helo=smokepit.net) by smtp-out.smokepit.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jk5o4-0005a8-Qq for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:02:44 +0000 Received: from yggdrasil.lan.smokepit.net ([10.0.0.200]) by smokepit.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jk5o3-000Kq2-OL for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 15:02:44 +0200 Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> <77a4e519-deda-9113-e0d8-b7ae0a8d1f13@FreeBSD.org> From: Daniel Lysfjord Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 15:02:43 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <77a4e519-deda-9113-e0d8-b7ae0a8d1f13@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Report: Action: no action Symbol: ARC_NA(0.00) Symbol: RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00) Symbol: BAYES_HAM(-2.17) Symbol: FROM_HAS_DN(0.00) Symbol: TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00) Symbol: MIME_GOOD(-0.10) Symbol: TO_DN_NONE(0.00) Symbol: RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00) Symbol: RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00) Symbol: FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00) Symbol: MIME_TRACE(0.00) Symbol: SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00) Symbol: RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00) Symbol: MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00) Message-ID: eba63afb-7b4b-11ca-c211-91cfb3576231@smokepit.net X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kd712WCWz433J X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.52 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[smokepit.net:s=loke]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.952]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:18.200.56.156]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.005]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[smokepit.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[smokepit.net,reject]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.56)[-0.560]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:18.200.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[84.215.44.163:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:02:54 -0000 On 13.06.2020 10:27, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 13/06/2020 09:17, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +0100 >> Matthew Seaman wrote: >> >>> On 12/06/2020 10:03, Ede Wolf wrote: >>>> linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is there >>>> an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? >>> >>> Yes. It's exactly the same. >> >> Since when ? There isn't one on my 12.1p3 box. >> > > Yeah. It's been a thing for about 6 months. > > https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/libexec/rc/rc.d/os-release?view=log > > Cheers, > > Matthew > It's not there on my 12.1-RELEASE-p6 box either From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 13:54:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23CB338BCC for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:54:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49kfGQ5gvWz45ks for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:54:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.143.16]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EF8A14E639 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:54:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> <800241a1-ce3a-ce19-63f8-e9a77032a7f1@yuripv.dev> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <3567942c-071f-378f-56d6-82035f95f85a@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 08:54:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <800241a1-ce3a-ce19-63f8-e9a77032a7f1@yuripv.dev> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kfGQ5gvWz45ks X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.12 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.143.16:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.60)[0.602]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.31)[-0.307]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.73)[0.728]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:54:23 -0000 On 6/13/20 3:20 AM, Yuri Pankov wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +0100 >> Matthew Seaman wrote: >> >>> On 12/06/2020 10:03, Ede Wolf wrote: >>>> linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is there >>>> an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? >>> >>> Yes.  It's exactly the same. >> >>     Since when ? There isn't one on my 12.1p3 box. > > It seems to be only in stable/12 and head at the moment, and it's > /var/run/os-release by default. the last (/var/run/...) must be related to STABLE only as well. Incidentally, the OP's question was about [which version...] filesystem contains, - filesystem is mounted on different machine, not booted. /var/run/... will not give OP correct answer. Valeri ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 13:54:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A111338C78 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:54:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from herbert@gojira.at) Received: from mail.bsd4all.net (mail.bsd4all.net [94.130.200.20]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.bsd4all.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kfGZ6bxmz45qF for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:54:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from herbert@gojira.at) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 15:54:22 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=gojira.at; s=mail202005; t=1592056463; bh=ofz8eDe7wLSJG3xOGxIyOOLG/8K+toyfQVy3JV5ILMI=; h=Date:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=iuIJaPr281qclmbAsP0fxmgx344iYHRNp7vWAZyYmSDK6dlFZjeFBrwJtqcMPAB5F YEeKSkBU3MmcgnT/gcqC33/jFR4eZIsxFbUwke2JxuLhS0LoGW3FazvF9nDKLOqg5y 6z+CXF8hyTCCQIRzbYIQsRQYLSqjliYA8QbsSpaMoQ+6oJYSaAivB5Cx7ySTx28BBb 59VdXecF+qvudEZS8tjdr1cw0veYPXlPglnoRolxyjEVQboBAy0u4hfeZm2+V5u9CG 6HgwFccIO2IbkpsbxwlEFMSaqg+H3aJIMGTYqcBij8jnTzJ+raqli+KC9ry1HINf3E 175Ao1+/43tVw== Message-ID: <875zbvm5pt.wl-herbert@gojira.at> From: "Herbert J. Skuhra" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? In-Reply-To: <800241a1-ce3a-ce19-63f8-e9a77032a7f1@yuripv.dev> References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> <800241a1-ce3a-ce19-63f8-e9a77032a7f1@yuripv.dev> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/28.0 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kfGZ6bxmz45qF X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gojira.at header.s=mail202005 header.b=iuIJaPr2; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of herbert@gojira.at designates 94.130.200.20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=herbert@gojira.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.57)[-0.568]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gojira.at:s=mail202005]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:94.130.200.20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gojira.at]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.936]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gojira.at:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.66)[-0.656]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:94.130.0.0/16, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 13:54:32 -0000 On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 10:20:09 +0200, Yuri Pankov wrote: > > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +0100 > > Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > >> On 12/06/2020 10:03, Ede Wolf wrote: > >>> linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is there > >>> an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? > >> > >> Yes. It's exactly the same. > > > > Since when ? There isn't one on my 12.1p3 box. > > It seems to be only in stable/12 and head at the moment, and it's > /var/run/os-release by default. That seems to be right. And I had to run etcupdate to get /etc/os-release: # etcupdate A /etc/os-release # file /etc/os-release /etc/os-release: symbolic link to ../var/run/os-release Obviously the symlink is not created if you only run mergemaster. -- Herbert From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jun 13 19:25:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EAF7340665 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 19:25:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49kncJ31rdz4Pf1 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 19:25:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [80.187.120.183] (helo=[172.20.10.4]) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jkBmI-0004rw-3i for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2020 21:25:18 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 21:25:17 +0200 User-Agent: Dekko/0.6.20; Qt/5.4.1; ubuntumirclient; Linux; MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 80.187.120.183 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49kncJ31rdz4Pf1 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of guru@unixarea.de has no SPF policy when checking 178.254.4.101) smtp.mailfrom=guru@unixarea.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.40 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[178.254.4.101:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unixarea.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.88)[0.883]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.70)[0.704]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.02)[1.016]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42730, ipnet:178.254.4.0/24, country:DE]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[178.254.4.101:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 19:25:21 -0000 On Saturday, 13 June 2020 17:44:09 CEST, Kevin P. Neal=20 wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:09:43PM -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 11:54, doug wrote: >> > See=20 >> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#id= p44832888 >>=20 >> Seems very out of date too me. For example the first thing it=20 >> says is to wrap messages at 75 characters because not everyone=20 >> uses GUI mailers. This may have been relevant in 1995, but it=20 >> sure isn=E2=80=99t now. CLI MUA=E2=80=99s handle long lines just fine. > > If you had wrapped at 75 characters then the quoting would be much easier > to read. Yes, I always do so. And this has todo with the normal terminal line length of 80 chars, which in turn has todo with the old 80 column punch cards. matthias --=20 Sent from my Ubuntu phone http://www.unixarea.de/ NO to the EU! NEIN zur EU!