From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 13 20:08:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683F8106568A for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:08:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mahlerrd@yahoo.com) Received: from web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com (web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.38.135]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 237B98FC1B for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:08:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mahlerrd@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 61174 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Jul 2009 20:08:57 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1247515737; bh=1A2dXQdgJAaqszZwp57hVhS9d772giHvzTEtgfW5QvI=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=xrx5cDd1C3jsghdQiVt0DEmW4MKE1U27mohCIu194nMrRT+6q6PXHhw02fH4vUcm6rXoPJzsYAhn8t+BP5vHZdvXvc5XBixow/Suc/njFQhAgu6jDGQNHTKQWvVovUBY3SWSQBpQwcy2Tl1misg9DnUbhL+uXE2xBvOPX4ZF0zU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=bM/WCAn+oy/dATI6R2GDcIiKFWg3Al4oNEovkwSuEiJNyi/7sWwKwf3QVcJvSYFAYQergUITZJt/04xd5xyEN5kklmNbJ03veLN+5MGc58Jv75xoEta/QH5ROmKP2CzS6lQJjldQ17hIaOD7TYFp1mNjJYA14hZvg8rdwuampn0=; Message-ID: <458986.60331.qm@web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 9hQNQXcVM1mM1LuY2PfkmG2U2obKJUKSqAjTI1Iu_JTbnijSBUWW0q5PmuGAM9UTEshysa0ALfZXc3cLQYgPcA2YD9q83vYMvZ3ZwU425nGgTC8uFHVdTzvewuOntuCS.quvFuhZzCfnfAmAK.P3jsAgRrRTI0iIMKmaW1WhpTa9XDeijFuMcju6Lqotknft4H4pQMHT30uh9C7DOXHWpAEIRts2aaQzSrmBuEC.4WxiQYb0aMQJhc8VoufMVcWzDb7xmuDIGQEsE06mz3Hm7KpJg8453rF0RcvBDXlKiwFCgF749ldWYcR42gj3jPu6i0BjJZ0ovdKmLZl3ypLnCpkai.SXMen7bQ-- Received: from [74.40.57.42] by web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:08:57 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/5.4.17 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.15 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:08:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Mahlerwein To: Free BSD Questions list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6? X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mahlerrd@yahoo.com List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:08:58 -0000 --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Maxim Khitrov wrote:=0A=0A> From:= Maxim Khitrov =0A> Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB har= dware RAID6?=0A> To: mahlerrd@yahoo.com=0A> Cc: "Free BSD Questions list" <= freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>=0A> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 3:23 PM=0A>= On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:13 PM,=0A> Richard Mahlerwein=0A> wrote:=0A> >=0A> > --- On Mon, 7/13/09, Maxim Khitrov =0A> wrote:=0A> >=0A> >> From: Maxim Khitrov =0A> = >> Subject: Re: ZFS or UFS for 4TB hardware RAID6?=0A> >> To: mahlerrd@yaho= o.com=0A> >> Cc: "Free BSD Questions list" = =0A> >> Date: Monday, July 13, 2009, 2:02 PM=0A> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at= 1:46 PM,=0A> >> Richard Mahlerwein=0A> >> wrote:=0A> >= > >>=0A> >> >> Your mileage may vary, but...=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> I would in= vestigate either using more=0A> spindles if=0A> >> you want=0A> >> >> to st= ick to RAID6, or perhaps using=0A> another RAID=0A> >> level if=0A> >> >> y= ou will be with 4 drives for a while.=A0=0A> The=0A> >> reasoning=0A> >> >>= is that there's an overhead with RAID 6 -=0A> parity=0A> >> blocks are=0A>= >> >> written to 2 disks, so in a 4 drive=0A> combination=0A> >> you have = 2=0A> >> >> drives with data and 2 with parity.=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> With 4 = drives, you could get much, much=0A> higher=0A> >> performance=0A> >> >> ou= t of RAID10 (which is alternatively=0A> called=0A> >> RAID0+1 or=0A> >> >> = RAID1+0 depending on the manufacturer and=0A> on how=0A> >> accurate=0A> >>= >> they wish to be, and on how they=0A> actually=0A> >> implemented it,=0A= > >> >> too). This would also mean 2 usable=0A> drives, as=0A> >> well, so= =0A> >> >> you'd have the same space available in=0A> RAID10 as=0A> >> your= =0A> >> >> proposed RAID6.=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> I would confirm you can, on = the fly,=0A> convert from=0A> >> RAID10 to=0A> >> >> RAID6 after you add mo= re drives.=A0 If you=0A> can not,=0A> >> then=0A> >> >> by all means stick = with RAID6 now!=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> With 4 1 TB drives (for simpler=0A> exa= mples)=0A> >> >> RAID5 =3D 3 TB available, 1 TB worth used=0A> in=0A> >> "p= arity".=0A> >> >> Fast reads, slow writes.=0A> >> >> RAID6 =3D 2 TB availab= le, 2 TB worth used=0A> in=0A> >> "parity".=0A> >> >> Moderately fast reads= , slow writes.=0A> >> >> RAID10 =3D 2 TB available, 2TB in duplicate=0A> co= pies=0A> >> (easier=0A> >> >> work than parity calculations).=A0 Very=0A> f= ast=0A> >> reads,=0A> >> >> moderately fast writes.=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> Whe= n you switch to, say, 8 drives, the=0A> numbers=0A> >> start to=0A> >> >> c= hange a bit.=0A> >> >> RAID5 =3D 7TB available, 1 lost.=0A> >> >> RAID6 =3D= 6TB available, 2 lost.=0A> >> >> RAID10 =3D 4TB available, 4 lost.=0A> >> = >>=0A> >> >=0A> >> > Sorry, consider myself chastised for having=0A> missed= the=0A> >> "Security is more important than performance" bit.=0A> I tend= =0A> >> toward solutions that show the most value, and=0A> with 4=0A> >> dr= ives, it seems that I'd stick with the same=0A> "data=0A> >> security" only= pick up the free speed of RAID10.=0A> =A0Change=0A> >> when you get to 6 o= r more drives, if necessary.=0A> >> >=0A> >> > For data security, I can't a= nswer for the=0A> UFS2 vs.=0A> >> ZFS. =A0For hardware setup, let me amend = everything=0A> I said=0A> >> above with the following:=0A> >> >=0A> >> > Si= nce you are seriously focusing on data=0A> integrity,=0A> >> ignore everyth= ing I said but make sure you have=0A> good=0A> >> backups! =A0:)=0A> >> >= =0A> >> > Sorry,=0A> >> > -Rich=0A> >>=0A> >> No problem :) I've been doing= some reading since I=0A> posted=0A> >> this=0A> >> question and it turns o= ut that the controller will=0A> actually=0A> >> not allow=0A> >> me to crea= te a RAID6 array using only 4 drives.=0A> 3ware=0A> >> followed the=0A> >> = same reasoning as you; with 4 drives use RAID10.=0A> >>=0A> >> I know that = you can migrate from one to the other=0A> when a=0A> >> 5th disk is=0A> >> = added, but RAID10 can only handle 2 failed drives=0A> if they=0A> >> are fr= om=0A> >> separate RAID1 groups. In this way, it is just=0A> slightly=0A> >= > less resilient=0A> >> to failure than RAID6. With this new information,= =0A> I think I=0A> >> may as=0A> >> well get one more 2TB drive and start w= ith 6TB of=0A> RAID6=0A> >> space. This=0A> >> will be less of a headache l= ater on.=0A> >>=0A> >> - Max=0A> >=0A> > Just as a question: how ARE you pl= anning on backing=0A> this beast up? =A0While I don't want to sound like a= =0A> worry-wort, I have had odd things happen at the worst of=0A> times. = =A0RAID cards fail, power supplies let out the magic=0A> smoke, users delet= e items they really want back... *sigh*=0A> =0A> Rsync over ssh to another = server. Most of the data stored=0A> will never=0A> change after the first u= pload. A daily rsync run will=0A> transfer one or=0A> two gigs at the most.= History is not required for the same=0A> reason;=0A> this is an append-onl= y storage for the most part. A backup=0A> for the=0A> previous day is all t= hat is required, but I will keep a=0A> weekly backup=0A> as well until I st= art running out of space.=0A> =0A> > A bit of reading shows that ZFS, if it= 's stable=0A> enough, has some really great features that would be nice on= =0A> such a large pile o' drives.=0A> >=0A> > See http://wiki.freebsd.org/Z= FSQuickStartGuide=0A> >=0A> > I guess the last question I'll ask (as any mo= re may=0A> uncover my ignorance) is if you need to use hardware RAID at=0A>= all?=A0 It seems both UFS2 and ZFS can do software RAID=0A> which seems to= be quite reasonable with respect to=0A> performance and in many ways seems= to be more robust since=0A> it is a bit more portable (no specialized hard= ware).=0A> =0A> I've thought about this one a lot. In my case, the hard=0A>= drives are in=0A> a separate enclosure from the server and the two had to = be=0A> connected=0A> via SAS cables. The 9690SA-8E card was the best choice= I=0A> could find=0A> for accessing an external SAS enclosure with support = for 8=0A> drives.=0A> =0A> I could configure it in JBOD mode and then use s= oftware to=0A> create a=0A> RAID array. In fact, I will likely do this to c= ompare=0A> performance of a=0A> hardware vs. software RAID5 solution. The Z= FS RAID-Z option=0A> does not=0A> appeal to me, because the read performanc= e does not benefit=0A> from=0A> additional drives, and I don't think RAID6 = is available in=0A> software.=0A> For those reasons I'm leaning toward a ha= rdware=0A> implementation.=0A> =0A> If I go the hardware route, I'll try to= purchase a backup=0A> controller=0A> in a year or two. :)=0A> =0A> > There= are others who may respond with better=0A> information on that front.=A0 I= 've been a strong=0A> proponent of hardware RAID, but have recently begun t= o=0A> realize many of the reasons for that are only of limited=0A> validity= now.=0A> =0A> Agreed, and many simple RAID setups (0, 1, 10) will give=0A>= you much=0A> better performance in software. In my case, I have to have=0A= > some piece=0A> of hardware just to get to the drives, and I'm guessing=0A= > that hardware=0A> RAID5/6 will be faster than the closest software=0A> eq= uivalent. Maybe my=0A> tests will convince me otherwise.=0A> =0A> - Max=0A= =0AI'd love to hear about any test results you may get comparing software w= ith hardware raid. =0A=0A=0A