From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 0:44:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (CPE0080c8f2c614.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DBC0F37B416 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 00:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5861 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2001 08:44:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (qmailr@192.168.1.2) by 192.168.1.1 with SMTP; 9 Dec 2001 08:44:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 5671 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Dec 2001 08:44:33 -0000 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 09 Dec 2001 03:44:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <874rn06avi.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Academic Rigor) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Anthony Atkielski" writes: > I just recognize that UNIX is not a desktop OS, at least not > compared to Windows. I'm amazed that so many people try so hard to > prove otherwise. The only possible motivation I can think of for > this is that a lot of people who feel this way use UNIX (and > especially Linux, the most primitive and overhyped version of UNIX) > only because they hate Microsoft, and will go to any extreme, expend > any effort, and suffer any inconvenience just so that they can have > something that looks just like Windows but lacks the Microsoft > brand. You might be surprised, but, for one, I'd hate to have a desktop that looks like Windows. I want to start with a clean desktop, and then add only those few shortcuts, which I need most. I want to have non-buggy support for multiple desktops. I want to get rid of the task bar, which is not needed with multiple desktops. I want to have my own choice of clock/calendar application. I want to have my cdparanoia-based CD-ripper. I want my own choice of ICQ client. I want to be able to strip any window of all window decorations (title bar, resize bar, borders, etc.), and configure such window to not take focus; and I want that these settings be saved for a particular application between sessions. I want not to suffer brain damage if I want to repartition my hard drive, or migrate the entire installation to a new hard drive. I want to be able to securely connect to my workstation from work, in a terminal to avoid transfers of graphical information over slow network. These are just a few requirements of mine, specific to workstation use, which AFAIK Windows is unable to deliver. They make Unix a lot more adequate WS for me. Please don't generalize. Windows just doesn't make it for me. I doubt it ever will, given how little progress in terms of GUI configurability I am seeing between the versions. Basically, as far as I can see, it's the same old crap, only with new spiffy icons (pardon my choice of words). -- Arcady Genkin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 4:28:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C203637B405 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 04:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12213 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2001 12:28:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO helios.dub.net) ([216.27.176.75]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 9 Dec 2001 12:28:03 -0000 Received: by helios.dub.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D3D83312A; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 00:16:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 00:16:19 -0800 From: Jim Mock To: Jamie Oulman Cc: James Howard , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD E'Zine Message-ID: <20011209081619.GA13487@helios.soupnazi.org> Reply-To: jim@FreeBSD.org References: <20011207211841.A78270@techsquare.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011207211841.A78270@techsquare.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 at 21:18:41 -0500, Jamie Oulman wrote: > On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:37:15PM -0500, James Howard wrote: > > Is the FreeBSD E'Zine totally dead? The last issue I saw was in May. > > have you tried sending Jim Mock (the maintainer) email? > jim@freebsd.org > > im sure he would know more than this list. Yes, it's dead. The old issues will temporarily be available (at least until I can pay for freebsdzine.org) at http://freebsdzine.geekhouse.net/ once I get the DNS added. - jim -- jim mock http://geekhouse.net/ | jim@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 4:35:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D1637B405 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 04:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id fB9CZ2763694; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:35:02 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB9CY8U15286; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:34:08 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200112091234.fB9CY8U15286@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Alternative to NIS / Hesiod References: In-Reply-To: ; from "Jason C. Wells" "Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:57:32 PST." Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 12:34:08 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have been searching for a centralized user database method that can > interoperate with Kerberos. Can any of you recommend a particular method? PAM with Radius or tacacs+? M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 7:20: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFB637B405 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 07:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fB9FK2N17705 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 16:20:02 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB9FF1J05635 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 16:15:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 16:15:01 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: cvs: *** empty log message *** when using gvim as editor Message-ID: <20011209151501.GA5603@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Had CVS problem, i.e.: empty log message, when committing changes using CVS, when using gvim as my editor. Why is gvim different to vi, when it comes to use it as vi replacement under CVS environment ??? How can I tweak gvim and/or CVS to use it as my main EDITOR ? When I committed something to my cvs repository on www.apsfilter.org, I got an empty commit message as result. CVS already announced it to me when committing, and I wasn't sure if I should proceed or terminate ... Finally I had to manually hack my log message into the CVS files directly .... I remember having similar problems when using gvim under knews... Any idea ? Andreas /// --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.ht= ml --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8E3/0d3o+lGxvbLoRAgXqAJ9JZYcI9jql5vJzoA9wJY3uKQ22FQCfV6B0 /jqlivtS8y0edpB7LTxvn9E= =f2RY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 11:28:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bilbo.in.mat.cc (bilbo.in.mat.cc [212.43.217.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB2B37B416; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:28:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilbo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bilbo.in.mat.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id F067171055; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:27:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from club-internet.fr (sauron.in.mat.cc [212.43.217.122]) by bilbo.in.mat.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FCE571055; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:27:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3C13BB3B.4BB52BF6@club-internet.fr> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 20:27:55 +0100 From: Mathieu Arnold Organization: http://www.absolight.fr/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Klemm , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: cvs: *** empty log message *** when using gvim as editor References: <20011209151501.GA5603@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andreas Klemm wrote: > > Had CVS problem, i.e.: empty log message, when committing > changes using CVS, when using gvim as my editor. > > Why is gvim different to vi, when it comes to use it as > vi replacement under CVS environment ??? > > How can I tweak gvim and/or CVS to use it as my main EDITOR ? > > When I committed something to my cvs repository on www.apsfilter.org, > I got an empty commit message as result. CVS already announced it > to me when committing, and I wasn't sure if I should proceed or > terminate ... Finally I had to manually hack my log message into > the CVS files directly .... > > I remember having similar problems when using gvim under > knews... gvim detatch itself from the terminal, isn't it ? you'll need to use the -f option. -- Mathieu Arnold To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 13:10:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7DE8037B405 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 13:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13596 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2001 21:10:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 9 Dec 2001 21:10:54 -0000 Message-ID: <3C13D357.F0FD78B4@outpost.co.nz> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:10:48 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I just recognize that UNIX is not a desktop OS, at least not compared to Windows. Really? Has anyone told Apple? -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 13:30:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B67C937B417 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 13:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fB9LU6A22075; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:30:06 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB9Jchf34080; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:38:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:38:43 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Mathieu Arnold Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: cvs: *** empty log message *** when using gvim as editor Message-ID: <20011209193843.GA34045@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <20011209151501.GA5603@titan.klemm.gtn.com> <3C13BB3B.4BB52BF6@club-internet.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C13BB3B.4BB52BF6@club-internet.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 08:27:55PM +0100, Mathieu Arnold wrote: >=20 > gvim detatch itself from the terminal, isn't it ? > you'll need to use the -f option. Great, -f will surely do the trick !!! Thanks a lot !!! Andreas /// --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.ht= ml --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8E73Cd3o+lGxvbLoRAgsYAKC3rruKtAQMfVbWAIl/A6O9rzGQ/wCgp8eQ TB+SkUlYTqTrVO6HpmU7X6U= =9YKK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 14:36:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BAD637B417 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fB9MaHl39237; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:36:18 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002001c18101$eeff3e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Craig Harding" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C13D357.F0FD78B4@outpost.co.nz> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:36:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig writes: > Has anyone told Apple? Apple already knows, but they had no choice, as they couldn't afford any other option. Writing an operating system from scratch these days with a Mac-like or Windows-like GUI is a billion-dollar undertaking. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 14:43: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp003pub.verizon.net (smtp003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3EB37B405 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:42:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp003pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id fB9Mfv814008 Sun, 9 Dec 2001 16:42:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA49336; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:42:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:42:17 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Brad Knowles Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Mike Meyer , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011209144217.A49268@darkstar.gte.net> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 06:24:56AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The hole in the middle of a CD was sized to match a coin local to where the CD standard was set? I just can't remember where that was. [RC] On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 06:24:56AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 5:27 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > > Can you say CD, or DVD? > > There are plenty of compromises that were made with both of these > technologies. Neither of them is anywhere near the best technical > solution for these problems. If they were, they would have had a > good technical reason for selecting the inner diameter of the CD (and > the products that have followed based on this form-factor, such as > DVD, etc...). > > You get bunny points if you can tell me the reason why the > external diameter of the CD was selected. You get extra bunny points > if you can tell me the real reason why the inner diameter of the CD > was selected. > > > Betacam SP and its digital successors resemble Betamax in the form of the > > cassette only, as far as I know. They are quite substantially removed from > > the consumer form of Betamax, although these professional formats do indeed > > have their origin in that type of cassette. > > Betamax was clearly superior at the time to VHS, and was arguably > even superior to S-VHS. Further generations of the technology have > retained their technical superiority, albeit in a format that has > virtually no consumer acceptance. > > > Professional formats are not dictated by technical considerations alone, > > however; U-Matic is still around, and it's garbage. > > U-matic defines the parameters by which all other analog video > formats are measured. Indeed, by your own claim that it is garbage, > you have proved the very point I was trying to make. Thank you. > > > But people do not buy their home or office computers as a mob. > > Yes they do. In your example, they are all lemmings who jump off > the bridge just because everyone else is jumping off the bridge, and > not for any real reason at all. Lemmings herd in the thousands, tens > of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or in the case of Windows, in > the hundreds of millions. But lemmings are lemmings. > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 > Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes > MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il > wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP > dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ > uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 16:21: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1051537B419 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 16:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 81748 invoked by uid 100); 10 Dec 2001 00:20:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15379.65514.588658.899404@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 18:20:58 -0600 To: Robert Clark Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <20011209144217.A49268@darkstar.gte.net> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011209144217.A49268@darkstar.gte.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You get bunny points if you can tell me the reason why the > external diameter of the CD was selected. You get extra bunny points > if you can tell me the real reason why the inner diameter of the CD > was selected. The two constraints I heard are that 1) the player had to fit in the cassette/radio space in an automobile console, which provides a maximum for the outside diameter, and 2) it had to hold a specific Beethoven symphony (the fifth?), which provides a maximum for the inner diameter. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 17:18: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF7837B417; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:17:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 473B4239A05; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:17:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:17:56 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Jim Mock Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD E'Zine Message-ID: <20011210011756.GC28607@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20011207211841.A78270@techsquare.com> <20011209081619.GA13487@helios.soupnazi.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="osDK9TLjxFScVI/L" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011209081619.GA13487@helios.soupnazi.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Organization: daemonnews X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --osDK9TLjxFScVI/L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2001-12-09 00:16 -0800, Jim Mock wrote: > On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 at 21:18:41 -0500, Jamie Oulman wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:37:15PM -0500, James Howard wrote: > > > Is the FreeBSD E'Zine totally dead? The last issue I saw was in May. > >=20 > > have you tried sending Jim Mock (the maintainer) email? > > jim@freebsd.org > >=20 > > im sure he would know more than this list.=20 >=20 > Yes, it's dead. The old issues will temporarily be available (at least > until I can pay for freebsdzine.org) at http://freebsdzine.geekhouse.net/ > once I get the DNS added. Jim, We'd like to host the archived freebsdzine pages at Daemon News. We'll pay for the domain. The content, including FreeBSDZine logos, will remain as-is. The only things we may have to add/change are some graphical advertisments, a small 'hosted by Daemon News' link, and updated contact info. Let me know, please. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm mailto:gsutter@daemonnews.org for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll http://www.daemonnews.org/ be warm for the rest of his life.=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --osDK9TLjxFScVI/L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8FA1EIBUx1YRd/t0RAtPNAJ97VcK6Yy+rdSsbhdVMhCzMqa4rvgCeOSmA A2NQ4vYTIYjwH8sx4LsmBT8= =+w0b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --osDK9TLjxFScVI/L-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 17:58:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD2337B416 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0370.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.115] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16DFiM-00056i-00; Sun, 09 Dec 2001 17:58:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1416DA.AADB3107@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 17:58:50 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Arcady Genkin Cc: Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <874rn06avi.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arcady Genkin wrote: > You might be surprised, but, for one, I'd hate to have a desktop that > looks like Windows. I personally would pay the full price for Microsoft Office Professional and Internet Explorer for FreeBSD. I would prefer the street price, of course, and greatly prefer that it check for KDE and let me install the upgrade versions instead. But worst case, I would pay full price for it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 18:39: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C95F37B416 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 18:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0370.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.115] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16DGLJ-0002zr-00; Sun, 09 Dec 2001 18:38:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3C142049.8A355163@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 18:39:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C13D357.F0FD78B4@outpost.co.nz> <002001c18101$eeff3e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Craig writes: > > > Has anyone told Apple? > > Apple already knows, but they had no choice, as they couldn't afford any > other option. Writing an operating system from scratch these days with a > Mac-like or Windows-like GUI is a billion-dollar undertaking. Boy, those KDE guys must be rolling in the dough! -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 18:46:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F68937B416 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 18:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBA2k7d74918; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 03:46:08 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <00c501c18124$d690bca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Craig Harding" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C13D357.F0FD78B4@outpost.co.nz> <002001c18101$eeff3e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C142049.8A355163@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 03:46:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Boy, those KDE guys must be rolling in the dough! KDE isn't even remotely like the Mac or Windows, except in the most superficial ways (such as outward appearance). Windows doesn't crash the system when I try to change the font in a window, for example. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 19:22:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D3A37B405 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0370.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.115] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16DH0F-000179-00; Sun, 09 Dec 2001 19:21:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3C142A32.58B4E136@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 19:21:22 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C13D357.F0FD78B4@outpost.co.nz> <002001c18101$eeff3e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C142049.8A355163@mindspring.com> <00c501c18124$d690bca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Terry writes: > > > Boy, those KDE guys must be rolling in the dough! > > KDE isn't even remotely like the Mac or Windows, except in the most > superficial ways (such as outward appearance). Windows doesn't crash the > system when I try to change the font in a window, for example. I think I need to get a copy of Windows from you, since we are obviously not running the same code. My Windows crashed pretty badly the other day -- the Office toolbar wouldn't unhide, if at the same time I had auto-hide turned on on the "Start" toolbar. PS: Windows XP isn't even remotely like Windows 3.11 or Windows 95 or Windows 98, except in the most superficial ways (such as outward appearance). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 9 19:33:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE5937B416 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBA3WSx26341; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 04:32:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00cc01c1812b$4cddb6a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Craig Harding" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C13D357.F0FD78B4@outpost.co.nz> <002001c18101$eeff3e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C142049.8A355163@mindspring.com> <00c501c18124$d690bca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C142A32.58B4E136@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 04:32:29 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > I think I need to get a copy of Windows > from you, since we are obviously not running > the same code. You have to purchase Windows from Microsoft; I cannot give you a copy. I'm running Windows NT. > PS: Windows XP isn't even remotely like > Windows 3.11 or Windows 95 or Windows 98, > except in the most superficial ways (such as outward > appearance). Yes, I know. They are two completely different operating systems. Even the source code is written in distinctly different styles (the NT style being superior to the 9x style). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 2:20:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stinky.akitanet.co.uk (akita-14.dsl.easynet.co.uk [217.206.114.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD8837B417 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 02:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from paul@localhost) by stinky.akitanet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fBAAKMx00420 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:20:22 GMT (envelope-from paul) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Paul Robinson To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:20:21 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday 07 December 2001 4:41 pm, Paul Robinson wrote: > OK, so we're all now sick of the 'Feeding the Troll' thread and although > this is kind of related, hopefully we won't end up in the same hell that > thread led to. If you don't like this (and you should like it - if you're a > reasonable person, anyway), flame me personally. :-) Well, that warning didn't go down very well did it? Look, it was an interesting balanced article on how some people just like the simpler tools rather than command-line tools that come with Linux distros. My hope in posting it was to try and create a bit of discussion around how to make FreeBSD a nicer environment to learn and use Unix in. My long-term hope was that we could look to helping -doc create perhaps a second handbook from a user's perspective that just gets people up and running and sending their e-mail without having to resort to the 'normal techniques' we would use. Instead, we've ended up with the ressurection of a private argument between a relatively small group of people. I can only apologise to the list for believing that certain people would act in an adult manner and take their personal arguments off-list. I don't enjoy walking in on a Monday morning to find 150+ mails all from what seems to be the same three or four people either. *sigh* If being a 'mature' OS means that the mailing lists turn into a place for personal vendettas ('I want to play RMS - you played him last time!') and the noise gets as bad as slashdot, perhaps we don't want to make the OS easy to use and we should just drop -current and go back to 3.x-STABLE. :-) -- Paul Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 3:29:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86D937B416 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 03:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-213.wobline.de [212.68.69.224]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBABTbA01554 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:29:37 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBABUUX09747 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:30:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBABUAM00281 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:30:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:30:10 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Best service on earth! Message-ID: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD howie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 12:21PM up 35 secs, 1 user, load averages: 0.10, 0.03, 0.01 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, well, this tis totally off-topic and has little to do with FreeBSD, but I guess you are prepared to take such things if you are subscribed to -chat. So, without further ado, let me tell you an interesting story that happened here lately: Last week, I noticed the hard disk in my dial-up router was slowly dying on me. It's been in there for four years, up and running all day long, but seems that it desperately wanted to be replaced. In order to get it replaced, I went to the online store of ComputerUniverse.net and ordered one of the cheapest discs they had available: A Western Digital Protege 20 GB disc. This is one of WD's low-end discs, but I really didn't worry much about performance. The price, 205 DM (about $100) seemed fine too! Well, today I received the package in the mail. When I opened it up, I was really surprised! What I found in there was not the WD Protege 20 GB I had ordered, but a WD Caviar 60 GB disc! Quickly, I checked the invoice, and found out that I had indeed only been billed the 205 DM for the 20 GB disc. Of course the very next thng I did was check out the price of the 60 GB thing. It's 365 DM, so I got it for 160 DM (about $80) less! Well, such a things have never happened to me before, but I wouldn't mind if they repeat in the future. Of course, I'm going to keep my mouth shut, otherwise the folks at ComputerUniverse.net might want to have the nice HD back... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 4: 3:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F9C37B416 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 04:03:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from duth.gr (emily.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.21]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBAC3Xw59372; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:03:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:03:33 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best service on earth! References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: [snip] > > Of course, I'm going to keep my mouth shut, otherwise the folks at > ComputerUniverse.net might want to have the nice HD back... You're not doing very well in keeping your mouth shut now, are you? =P --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 5:12:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stinky.akitanet.co.uk (akita-14.dsl.easynet.co.uk [217.206.114.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9B237B405 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 05:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from paul@localhost) by stinky.akitanet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fBAD6XC00583; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:06:33 GMT (envelope-from paul) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Paul Robinson To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , Nils Holland Subject: Re: Best service on earth! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:06:33 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> In-Reply-To: <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 10 December 2001 12:03 pm, Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > Nils Holland wrote: [snip] > > > Of course, I'm going to keep my mouth shut, otherwise the folks at > > ComputerUniverse.net might want to have the nice HD back... > > You're not doing very well in keeping your mouth shut now, are you? =P And seeing as he has now publically admitted that he knows the delivery was a mistake, and he intends keeping it, he is also breaking lots of laws. Tsk, tsk! Personally, I'm so damned honest, I'd send it back. Or at the very least, if keeping it, donate the price differential to a charity to make yourself all warm and fuzzy inside. ;-) -- Paul Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 8:39:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CE137B419 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-140.wobline.de [212.68.69.148]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBAGcwA03417; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:38:59 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (poison.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.5]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBAGe9000671; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:40:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBAGd7T02075; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:39:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:38:31 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Paul Robinson Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best service on earth! Message-ID: <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: Paul Robinson , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:06:33PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD poison.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 5:28PM up 1:12, 1 user, load averages: 0.26, 0.07, 0.02 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:06:33PM +0000, Paul Robinson stood up and spoke: > And seeing as he has now publically admitted that he knows the delivery was a > mistake, and he intends keeping it, he is also breaking lots of laws. Tsk, > tsk! Personally, I'm so damned honest, I'd send it back. Or at the very > least, if keeping it, donate the price differential to a charity to make > yourself all warm and fuzzy inside. ;-) Actually, I guess that Western Digital (or wherever the retailer gets the drive from) has already made a mistake. The antistatic shielding back in which the drive came had a label attached that said something WD200EB, which is the 20 GB drive. However, I don't know why nobody looked through the shielding back, because the label on the drive clearly says WD600AB. So probably the retailer has received a whole lot of 60 GB discs that are labelled 20 GB from whatever source provides them the stuff they sell. And by the way, I was a little disappointed to note that the graphics card that I also got with this delivery was actually the cheap 8 MB thing I ordered. They could have been so kind and shipped me a 32 MB thing or similar ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 9:18:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A07937B417 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from duth.gr (emily.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.21]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBAHIfw76902; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:18:41 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:18:41 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best service on earth! References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > > Actually, I guess that Western Digital (or wherever the retailer gets the > drive from) has already made a mistake. The antistatic shielding back in > which the drive came had a label attached that said something WD200EB, > which is the 20 GB drive. However, I don't know why nobody looked through > the shielding back, because the label on the drive clearly says WD600AB. So > probably the retailer has received a whole lot of 60 GB discs that are > labelled 20 GB from whatever source provides them the stuff they sell. > > And by the way, I was a little disappointed to note that the graphics card > that I also got with this delivery was actually the cheap 8 MB thing I > ordered. They could have been so kind and shipped me a 32 MB thing or > similar ;-) Sometimes interesting things happen, especially after mergers, when often backend software is incompatible between the companies and prices often have to be entered manually at some point. It's like that old IT saying, "to err is human, but to really cock things up you need a computer". Anyway, I often hunt for silly prices at pricelists, and I got a lot of stuff for absolutely ridiculous prices. I once got a Toshiba Libretto for less than a third of its price. I always wanted something like that, and one day I went to buy some blank CD-Rs and I saw the price and couldn't believe it. I instantly reached for my credit card, and bought it. Even the guy at the till couldn't believe the price (it was just brought in the day before, and he obviously hadn't seen it before), so he called the head office to confirm the price. Judging from his reaction, he probably got a reply in the lines of "if that's what the POS terminal says when you scan it, then that's what you will to charge, you $EXPLETIVE". I also got a Matrox G400 DH 32MB for less than the price of the 16MB SH version, probably due to a data entry mistake too. It was obvious even for the employees there (not known for their high IQ mind you) that it was weird, but that was the price, they didn't argue, and that's what I paid. I then told several of my friends, and in the next few weeks 6 of them ordered it. Apparently they didn't correct the price until they run out of them nation-wide and had a new shipment in. I once *nearly* got a lexmark >20ppm network laser printer from the same company for the price of a good inkjet (!). I nearly got it, because somebody noticed that this huge, heavy crate should contain something much more expensive than ~$200 and bothered to double check, so at the last moment they phoned me and apologized and asked me if I wanted to pay it at the significantly increased price or cancel the order (which I did). I've been told by some people that this is dishonest, but frankly, I don't think so. When I am getting an offer I can't refuse, that's what I do - I don't refuse it. I am not going to sit and argue with an employee of a huge nation-wide coroporation how ridiculous the price for a particular item is, I'll just go ahead and buy it if I want it. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 10: 4: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8C437B417; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16DUmG-0004Pw-00; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:03:44 -0800 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:03:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Jim Mock , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD E'Zine In-Reply-To: <20011210011756.GC28607@klapaucius.zer0.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2001-12-09 00:16 -0800, Jim Mock wrote: > > Yes, it's dead. The old issues will temporarily be available (at least > > until I can pay for freebsdzine.org) at http://freebsdzine.geekhouse.net/ > > once I get the DNS added. > We'd like to host the archived freebsdzine pages at Daemon News. We'll > pay for the domain. The content, including FreeBSDZine logos, will > remain as-is. The only things we may have to add/change are some > graphical advertisments, a small 'hosted by Daemon News' link, and > updated contact info. Let me know, please. Why is this on the chat list? :) I am curious, how much will he be paid? (Since I am sure many others will host it for free and pay for the reregistration without the ads.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 10:10:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zeus.anet-chi.com (zeus.anet-chi.com [207.7.4.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F4737B419 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from IPv16 (as1b-48.chi.il.dial.anet.com [198.92.157.48]) by zeus.anet-chi.com (8.9.3/spamfix) with SMTP id MAA05549 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:09:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <035c01c181a7$d0516000$1000a8c0@Unir.com> From: "Jim Fleming" To: References: Subject: RIFRAF Routing Works in FreeBSD Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:23:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.dot-biz.com/RepliGate/RIFRAF/ RIFRAF Routing RIFRAF (Remote Identification Field Random Action Filter) Routing is part of a phased approach to evolving from 32-bit IPv4 Internet Addressing to larger address spaces. The RIFRAF feature in an IP stack, allows for remote access control of the left-most 8-bits of the normally 16-bit IPv4 Identification Field. The feature is part of the IPv8 PeaceKeeper/GateKeeper series. The feature allows a PeaceKeeper for a /16 prefix to remotely set StarGate values in a marking engine via simple ICMP+ extensions via the TOS field. The 4-bit StarGate values are rotated through an 8-bit field which is used in a 50/50 coin-toss marking process as packets are processed with the /16 prefix. Source and Destination StarGate marking is distinct, and all 65,536 /16 prefixes have two choices for the source addresses and two choices for destination addresses. The random marking can be prevented by loading both StarGate values to be the same. The GateKeeper can be restored to legacy Identification Field marking by the PeaceKeeper. Packets marked via RIFRAF can be further routed or queued based on the marks which effectively add 4 bits to the 32-bit IPv4 legacy addresses. All of the packets pass transparently through legacy IPv4 equipment with no change. For legacy equipment not prepared to handle the markings, it appears as the left 8-bits of the Identification Field. For each of the 256 marking values, an independent counter is maintained for the right-most 8-bits of the Identification Field. There is no API required or other user-level tools. RIFRAF can exist silently inside of the stack and be totally controlled remotely via existing connection(s) to the IPv4 private Intranets or the IPv4 Global Public Internet. Spoofing of the PeaceKeeper is possible and the PeaceKeeper will receive the return reply, at which point the PeaceKeeper can restore the desired values. When RIFRAF is used in conjunction with other routing devices and on an IPv16 network, these problems can be minimized. RIFRAF is mostly intended for use in extending the addressing of leaf-nodes, which generally are protected behind fire-walls and NAT devices, but can also be used on the IPv4 Global Public Internet to increase the addressing used by edge devices on /16 networks. ----- http://www.dot-biz.com/IPv4/Tutorial/ The Netfilter Project: Packet Mangling for Linux 2.4 http://netfilter.samba.org Jim Fleming http://www.IPv8.info IPv16....One Better !! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 10:59:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8127937B419 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCE0BD7A; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16104; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:59:16 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBAIwbe24972; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:58:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best service on earth! References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 10 Dec 2001 10:58:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> Message-ID: Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis writes: > I've been told by some people that this is dishonest, but frankly, I > don't think so. Oh, it's dishonest. The only question is whether you and Nils are dishonest enough to deserve the censure of others, which largely has to do with their own level of dishonesty. But "honest" is not a very mushy word like "moral" and some others where you get to draw your own threshold or use your own definition so that nearly everyone considers themselves to be "moral". Honest (snipped from my dict.) -- Not taking unfair advantage; truthful; trustworthy; equitable; fair; having integrity; guileless; open. Final snip -- "of good repute". Nils and you have damaged your repute to some extent. Not that it matters much, since your readers are unlikely to have business dealings with you anyway. I think I'm just stating facts and not saying how badly or not-so-badly I view these dishonest dealings. Few people are guiltless and for many mail order pricing errors, correcting the problem would cost the seller more than the error, and costs the buyer at least his time, etc, etc, so justifications are often easy to make. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 12:43:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8B537B405 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBAKhCw84039; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:43:12 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3C151E53.E1F48728@duth.gr> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:42:59 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: We've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best service on earth! References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > Konstantinos Konstantinidis writes: > > > I've been told by some people that this is dishonest, but frankly, I > > don't think so. > > Oh, it's dishonest. The only question is whether you and Nils are > dishonest enough to deserve the censure of others, which largely > has to do with their own level of dishonesty. What I and Nils described are two totally different situations, and while what Nils did is not honest, I wouldn't say the same about what I did. Obviously I'm biased :) > But "honest" is not a very mushy word like "moral" and some others where > you get to draw your own threshold or use your own definition so that > nearly everyone considers themselves to be "moral". > > Honest (snipped from my dict.) -- Not taking unfair advantage; truthful; > trustworthy; equitable; fair; having integrity; guileless; open. I believe that what I did is honest. If a shop has an item that I want on display at a price that I like, I hand them over my cash and buy it - it is called "trade". So, what you are saying is that if you see a product at a very low price at a store, which could be due to an error, the management going bonkers or merely a big bargain, you are going to beg them to pay more? --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 12:56:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E65837B41C for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15787 invoked by uid 100); 10 Dec 2001 20:56:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15381.8587.64993.130741@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:56:43 -0600 To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best service on earth! In-Reply-To: <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis types: > I've been told by some people that this is dishonest, but frankly, I > don't think so. When I am getting an offer I can't refuse, that's what > I do - I don't refuse it. I am not going to sit and argue with an employee > of a huge nation-wide coroporation how ridiculous the price for a particular > item is, I'll just go ahead and buy it if I want it. In the US, this is not only dishonest, but the merchants are required *by law* to honor marked prices. I once got a great deal on a microwave. When I opened the box at home, it was the much cheaper model, not the one marked on the display. I take it back the next day, and they gave me the one that they had incorrectly marked. Along with the other two people who were in line to get theirs exchanged. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 13:16:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF0937B405 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-141.wobline.de [212.68.69.149]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBALGEA28596; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:16:14 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBALHP002071; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:17:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBALGdW02687; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:16:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:16:39 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best service on earth! Message-ID: <20011210221639.A2587@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 10:58:36AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 9:59PM up 5:30, 2 users, load averages: 0.26, 0.24, 0.25 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 10:58:36AM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen stood up and spoke: > Konstantinos Konstantinidis writes: > > I think I'm just stating facts and not saying how badly or not-so-badly > I view these dishonest dealings. Few people are guiltless and for many > mail order pricing errors, correcting the problem would cost the seller > more than the error, and costs the buyer at least his time, etc, etc, > so justifications are often easy to make. Well, it is probably dishonest, but who cares? In my case, I don't even know who got "damaged" by what I did. It could be that the retailer from whom I bought the product mislabeled it and sold it at a price lower than the price for which he bought it. It could, however, also be that the retailer got the drive from a big reseller, and the reseller made the mistake. In that case, the retailer bought the price for a smaller drive and thought they had / sent that smaller drive. As a last point, the folks at Western Digital could just have messed the who thing up when packaging the units. I'm only dishonest because I'm the one who noticed what's up ;-) Seriously: If the folks who sold me the dive would come along and request it back, they'd surely get it back. I don't think, however, that anyone has actually noticed what's up and in the end, no damage has been done. The fact that I recently purchased items for 3000 DM (about $1500) from the same retailer doesn't remedy what I have done, but it makes me feel a little better about it. Now that we're at it: Imagine I ordered an item for $50 and would pay by transferring the money from my banking account to the retailer's account (fairly common payment method in Germany). Now, imagine I accidentally transfer $70 instead of the $50 to the reseller. Well, I don't think they would contact me and tell me about the issue - they'd probably give me back my money if I ask them about it, but otherwise, probably not. Definately, there are much worse things one can do. Remember: It's 60 GB for the price of 20! ;-) Greetings Nils (I will prepare a "Terms Of Service" statement which I will include with all the orders I place. It will contain a statement like: "All goods delievered to me, no matter if by mistake or by intention, shall become my property."...) -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 14:31:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E423D37B41B; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B4E75239A06; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:31:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:31:07 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: Jim Mock , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD E'Zine Message-ID: <20011210223107.GZ26169@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20011210011756.GC28607@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JwDyboxUGYfjwwUw" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Organization: daemonnews X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --JwDyboxUGYfjwwUw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2001-12-10 10:03 -0800, "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Gregory Sutter wrote: >=20 > > On 2001-12-09 00:16 -0800, Jim Mock wrote: > > > Yes, it's dead. The old issues will temporarily be available (at lea= st > > > until I can pay for freebsdzine.org) at http://freebsdzine.geekhouse.= net/ > > > once I get the DNS added. >=20 > > We'd like to host the archived freebsdzine pages at Daemon News. We'll > > pay for the domain. The content, including FreeBSDZine logos, will > > remain as-is. The only things we may have to add/change are some > > graphical advertisments, a small 'hosted by Daemon News' link, and > > updated contact info. Let me know, please. >=20 > Why is this on the chat list? :) Because I mistakenly kept the Cc: when I meant to send it just to Jim. =20 > I am curious, how much will he be paid? (Since I am sure many others will > host it for free and pay for the reregistration without the ads.) All we want to do is keep around all of this great information that the 'zine guys created and collected. If this means paying for the domain registration, fine. But we'll slap the Daemon News ad banner on there in an attempt to have the site make a few bucks and pay for its own registration. We at Daemon News try to make our activities self-sustaining; we can't just rely on a batch of VC money to keep all the services we provide afloat. That's why we'd put the ads on the page, the same way we put ads on our own sites, in the print magazine, etc.--because we have a business to run, and all of these activities take money. We're not exactly flush with cash; most of us don't even get paid, so we need to regulate money flows very carefully. Hosting a website doesn't cost much, but $20 here and $20 there tends to add up, so having small inflows of money to offset the small outflows helps a lot. I hope that this is an adequate summary of our rationale.=20 Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Frotz! mailto:gsutter@daemonnews.org=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --JwDyboxUGYfjwwUw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8FTerIBUx1YRd/t0RAsIsAJ9eAyPz0IH67DymDW7i/DKx7OCyKQCfQlFc ZqKRzFL0qc1XStdyTRE2+AM= =ITuu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JwDyboxUGYfjwwUw-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 16:44:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51F737B416 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E97BCD8; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16008; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:44:04 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBB0hO925030; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:43:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best service on earth! References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> <3C151E53.E1F48728@duth.gr> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 10 Dec 2001 16:43:22 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C151E53.E1F48728@duth.gr> Message-ID: Lines: 45 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Honest (snipped from my dict.) -- Not taking unfair advantage; truthful; > > trustworthy; equitable; fair; having integrity; guileless; open. > > I believe that what I did is honest. If a shop has an item that I want on > display at a price that I like, I hand them over my cash and buy it - it > is called "trade". You believe wrong, for the cases you described where you understood the marked prices to be mistakes. An honest person, being concerned about his integrity, being fair, and interested in equitable dealing, tells the merchant about the suspected error and gives him an opportunity to correct his error so the exchange is equitable. The sale of goods involves a legal contract (in US Law anyway), whether the terms are discussed or written or not, but if the parties don't understand and agree on the terms of the contract (like an agreed-upon price, because of an error in marking the price), then the contract can be held invalid in court. You-all don't care about US Law, but it does show that the basic concept is important enought to have been put into law. Now, like Mike alluded to, commercial law has gotten very complicated and allows and sometimes even requires all sorts of inequities and unfair situations, in the process of trying to correct worse or more common ones. Fortunately, lawyers don't define "honest" for us. > So, what you are saying is that if you see a product at a very low price > at a store, which could be due to an error, the management going bonkers > or merely a big bargain, you are going to beg them to pay more? I didn't say anything like that. I said an honest person whould not take advantage of someone else's mistake. If he expected a mistake, he would bring it to the merchant's attention so a fair deal could be negotiated. Now, if YOU are saying that it's OK to be dishonest in these situations, then I won't argue with you about that in this forum. But to say that it isn't dishonest is to call black white and I felt I had to comment. Another case where you can see this concept embodied in law, is when the bank feeds huge amounts of money into someone's checking account and they take it out in cash, close their account, and don't tell anyone. Such people should be and are sent to prison when found out, depending on the amount of their theft. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 17:14:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B3437B419 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([65.8.240.251]) by femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011211011430.YUVS5156.femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:14:30 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011210184957.023807b0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:52:09 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Technical Information Subject: Re: FreeBSD E'Zine In-Reply-To: <20011210223107.GZ26169@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20011210011756.GC28607@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well I say carry on. The last thing I want to see is another good site disappear because they didn't think they needed to generate revenue. :-/ At 05:31 PM 12/10/2001, Gregory Sutter wrote: >We at Daemon News try to make our activities self-sustaining; we can't >just rely on a batch of VC money to keep all the services we provide >afloat. That's why we'd put the ads on the page, the same way we put >ads on our own sites, in the print magazine, etc.--because we have a >business to run, and all of these activities take money. We're not >exactly flush with cash; most of us don't even get paid, so we need >to regulate money flows very carefully. Hosting a website doesn't >cost much, but $20 here and $20 there tends to add up, so having small >inflows of money to offset the small outflows helps a lot. > >I hope that this is an adequate summary of our rationale. > >Greg >-- >Gregory S. Sutter Frotz! >mailto:gsutter@daemonnews.org >hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 17:14:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2DED37B417 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([65.8.240.251]) by femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011211011432.YUWB5156.femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:14:32 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011210185222.0232c2d0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:08:48 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Best service on earth! In-Reply-To: References: <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:58 PM 12/10/2001, you wrote: >Konstantinos Konstantinidis writes: > > I've been told by some people that this is dishonest, but frankly, I > > don't think so. > >Oh, it's dishonest. The only question is whether you and Nils are >dishonest enough to deserve the censure of others, which largely >has to do with their own level of dishonesty. I don't know about other places, but here in the U.S., if you receive services or products that you did not request, you're under no obligation to return or pay for them. This prevents unscrupulous retailers from sending you "upgrades" by "mistake" and then "rightfully" charging you after the fact. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 10 17:21: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E08937B416 for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([65.8.240.251]) by femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011211012058.UPFE1739.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:20:58 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011210201551.02382710@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:20:27 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Best service on earth! In-Reply-To: References: <3C151E53.E1F48728@duth.gr> <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> <3C151E53.E1F48728@duth.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:43 PM 12/10/2001, Gary wrote: >Another case where you can see this concept embodied in law, is when >the bank feeds huge amounts of money into someone's checking account >and they take it out in cash, close their account, and don't tell >anyone. Such people should be and are sent to prison when found out, >depending on the amount of their theft. And yet somehow, when they make an error that is *not* in your favor by mistakenly debiting your account and leaving you temporarily unable to pay basic bills, there's no penalty for the bank whatsoever. I don't cry for the banks in this scenario because (a) it's their mistake and (b) I think it balances out with the mistakes that they make which are against the customers' favor. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 6: 8:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA7637B405 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:08:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id EB62114C53; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:08:36 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: Robert Clark , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011209144217.A49268@darkstar.gte.net> <15379.65514.588658.899404@guru.mired.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Dec 2001 15:08:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: <15379.65514.588658.899404@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mike Meyer" writes: > The two constraints I heard are that 1) the player had to fit in the > cassette/radio space in an automobile console, which provides a > maximum for the outside diameter, and 2) it had to hold a specific > Beethoven symphony (the fifth?), which provides a maximum for the > inner diameter. It would have to be the ninth, then. Deutsche Grammophon's 1977 edition of Beethoven's Fifth, performed by the Berlin Philharmonic directed by Herbert von Karajan, is just short of 30 minutes - 29:52 to be exact. I don't have Beethoven's Ninth, but judging from track listings in the Deutsche Grammofon catalog, it is somewhere in the vicinity of 50 minutes - not much more than fifty, because the CD it's on starts off with the Coriolan Ouverture (op. 62), which is just shy of nine minutes long, and these CDs hover around the 60-minute mark. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 6:28:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97ACC37B405 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0114.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.114] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Dntd-0000Zo-00; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:28:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3C16181C.32945E8E@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:28:44 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mike Meyer , Robert Clark , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011209144217.A49268@darkstar.gte.net> <15379.65514.588658.899404@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > It would have to be the ninth, then. Deutsche Grammophon's 1977 > edition of Beethoven's Fifth, performed by the Berlin Philharmonic > directed by Herbert von Karajan, is just short of 30 minutes - 29:52 > to be exact. I don't have Beethoven's Ninth, but judging from track > listings in the Deutsche Grammofon catalog, it is somewhere in the > vicinity of 50 minutes - not much more than fifty, because the CD it's > on starts off with the Coriolan Ouverture (op. 62), which is just shy > of nine minutes long, and these CDs hover around the 60-minute mark. FWIW: 65:16 for Joseph Krips conducting the London Symphony Orchestra, not including the 3 inter-track gaps. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 7:27:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BF237B41F for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBBFR0S31522; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:27:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <00f901c18258$4e7a10c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Cc: "Robert Clark" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011209144217.A49268@darkstar.gte.net><15379.65514.588658.899404@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:26:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Ninth is what I heard, and supposedly it was a Sony manager who insisted that CDs be long enough to hold it. One naturally thinks of the late, great Mr. Morita, but the source I encountered didn't name the manager, and it might have been someone further down the ladder. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Robert Clark" ; Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 15:08 Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. > "Mike Meyer" writes: > > The two constraints I heard are that 1) the player had to fit in the > > cassette/radio space in an automobile console, which provides a > > maximum for the outside diameter, and 2) it had to hold a specific > > Beethoven symphony (the fifth?), which provides a maximum for the > > inner diameter. > > It would have to be the ninth, then. Deutsche Grammophon's 1977 > edition of Beethoven's Fifth, performed by the Berlin Philharmonic > directed by Herbert von Karajan, is just short of 30 minutes - 29:52 > to be exact. I don't have Beethoven's Ninth, but judging from track > listings in the Deutsche Grammofon catalog, it is somewhere in the > vicinity of 50 minutes - not much more than fifty, because the CD it's > on starts off with the Coriolan Ouverture (op. 62), which is just shy > of nine minutes long, and these CDs hover around the 60-minute mark. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 11: 1:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5565637B417 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from user-38lc2vk.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.11.244] helo=gohan.cjclark.org) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ds9m-0002up-00; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:01:35 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by gohan.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id fBB54OH02482; Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:04:23 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Paul Robinson Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Best service on earth! Message-ID: <20011210210423.C1922@gohan.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:06:33PM +0000 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:06:33PM +0000, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Monday 10 December 2001 12:03 pm, Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > > Nils Holland wrote: [snip] > > > > > Of course, I'm going to keep my mouth shut, otherwise the folks at > > > ComputerUniverse.net might want to have the nice HD back... > > > > You're not doing very well in keeping your mouth shut now, are you? =P > > And seeing as he has now publically admitted that he knows the delivery was a > mistake, and he intends keeping it, he is also breaking lots of laws. Tsk, > tsk! Personally, I'm so damned honest, I'd send it back. Or at the very > least, if keeping it, donate the price differential to a charity to make > yourself all warm and fuzzy inside. ;-) Well, Nils lives in Germany, but for what it's worth, in the USA, anything you are sent in the mail that you did not order yours. (Period.) This is to protect consumers from marketing schemes where a company sends you something you didn't ask for and then demands you pay or return it. I would be surpised if other countries do not have similar laws to protect consumers from mail fraud. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 11:41:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.acidpit.org [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A682E37B419 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:41:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rch@localhost) by tsunami.acidpit.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fBBJenR15331; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:40:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:40:49 -0500 From: Robert Hough To: Paul Robinson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> Mail-Followup-To: Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 10:20:21 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 10, 2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > My long-term hope was that we could look to helping -doc create > perhaps a second handbook from a user's perspective that just gets > people up and running and sending their e-mail without having to > resort to the 'normal techniques' we would use. So write it up, and submit it. I'm sure that if it doesn't suck, someone will commit it for you. The more quality documentation, the better. Yes, I agree, it would be nice to see something like this. You, myself, and everyone on this list has the ability to write something up, and submit it. > perhaps we don't want to make the OS easy to use and we should just > drop -current and go back to 3.x-STABLE. :-) Since when is -CURRENT about making the OS easier to use? I don't want FreeBSD to be "easier" to use. I want it to be secure, reliable, responsive and robust. In my opinion, when you make things so easy to use, that even the clueless can do -- you start attracting a whole lot of clueless people. That isn't a totally bad thing in itself, but when those same said clueless people start to think they are administrators - and people hire them. Then things start to get bad... Just look at the majority of Microsoft admins, and the latest wave of so called linux administrators. -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 11:56:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB8837B417 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B5ABFC2 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30524 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:56:28 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBBJthX25722; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:55:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Best service on earth! References: <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> <20011210123010.A259@tisys.org> <3C14A495.841A203D@duth.gr> <01121013063303.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011210173831.A1975@tisys.org> <3C14EE71.91ECF654@duth.gr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011210185222.0232c2d0@threespace.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 11 Dec 2001 11:55:42 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011210185222.0232c2d0@threespace.com> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information writes: > I don't know about other places, but here in the U.S., if you receive > services or products that you did not request, you're under no > obligation to return or pay for them. ... Obligation -- A course of action imposed by law, society, or conscience by which one is bound or restricted. (One of many similar extra-legal senses from my dictionary.) The honest person is under obligation to society and his conscience to inquire whether a mistake has been made, if he suspects a mistake has been made and isn't sure that the seller is working the scam the law is aimed at. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 12:49:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45D637B417 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:49:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-193.wobline.de [212.68.69.204]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBBKnWA01132; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:49:32 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (poison.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.5]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBBKojT02872; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:50:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBBKnhP04574; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:49:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:49:43 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Robert Hough Cc: Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Hough , Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org>; from rch@acidpit.org on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 02:40:49PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD poison.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 9:14PM up 9:36, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 02:40:49PM -0500, Robert Hough stood up and spoke: > > Since when is -CURRENT about making the OS easier to use? I don't want > FreeBSD to be "easier" to use. I want it to be secure, reliable, > responsive and robust. In my opinion, when you make things so easy to > use, that even the clueless can do -- you start attracting a whole lot > of clueless people. Well, I'd like to dig into this once again, but I have already done so before. Anyway, let me tell you that I believe that there is no such thing as "easy to use". I don't know who started wanting to make computers "easy to use", but these words are really not much more than marketting phrases. Generally, my long experience tells me that there are two kinds of systems: 1) Those that claim the most to be "easy to use". These are generally called Windows, but reach to a certain extend even into the UNIX field (KDE, Gnome). The isse is that these systems look good first - they claim that you only need to make sure your computer is connected to the mains, and instantly you can start working. There's no need to learn much - you do just have to point-and-click a little. The issue with these systems is that they get you up and running quickly, but you will outgrow them very fast. Right from the beginning everything that can be done with such a system is visible to you, and that is, most of the time, not too much. 2) Those systems that do not claim to be easy to use but probably are. This included FreeBSD. You will have to spend some time to get familiar with it, but this time couldn't be spent any better, because once you learnt about it, you know that you do indeed have a rather powerful tool at your disposal that is about unlimited. A tool of this category will actually work the way you want to (and doesn't make you work the way it wants to). A few examples, randomly chosen: Compare KDE to FVWM. With KDE, you instantly get a Windows-like desktop, which you can customize via a point-and-click interface. For FVWM, however, you'd first of all have to learn how to properly write a configuration file. Once you have done that, you will notice that FVWM is much more flexibe than KDE, and if you are really familiar with the configuration file syntax, it will allow you to make customizations much faster than KDE. So, in the end FVWM could well be "more effective to use": You need *more* time to get started, but you will probably take less time for your normal work, and that's probably what is more important in the end. Another real world example: The pine email software is supposed to be easy to use (that is the goal of the pine project). So, until recently I used pine, for historical reaons (it was the first ever UNIX MUA I used and I didn't bother to switch). However, telling pine to correctly filter my mail was a kind of hard. For this mailing list, for example, messages can be sent to freebsd-chat@freebsd.org or chat@freebsd.org. Furthermore, that address may appear either in the To: or CC: header field. In order not to any messages, I would probably have needed for separate filters. Now, with mutt and procmail (undoubtedly these are supposed to be harder to use), I simply put this short thing in my .procmailrc: :0: * ^TO*chat@freebsd.org freebsd-chat Now, what is easier, or more effective, to use? Of course, every idiot can set up a mail filter in pine without much learning. Procmail, on the other hand, is a little harder to learn. Once learnt, however, my work becomes much more effective and less time consuming than if I used pine. The morale of this story: As I said in the beginning, defining something as "easy to use" is entirely relative. Furthermore, I doubt that today's "Plug-And-Play" anticipation is worth much: There is software you don't have to learn, thus you save a few hours of learning it. But what if something that requires learning costs you 5 hours to learn, and then saves you 30 minutes a day? In the long run, this will probably be the better thing. My own experience furthermore tells me that people who come to FreeBSD are well aware of the learning they will have to do, and some (most?) even seem to enjoy it. As other systems get "easier to use" (you know why I put that into quotation marks), more and more people will come to look fomr something more flexible, powerful and - in the end - effective. I guess that's where the strength of FreeBSD is, for we can give them just what they are looking for. Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 12:59:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ADE6637B416 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28530 invoked by uid 100); 11 Dec 2001 20:59:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:59:11 -0600 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland types: > The morale of this story: As I said in the beginning, defining something as > "easy to use" is entirely relative. Furthermore, I doubt that today's > "Plug-And-Play" anticipation is worth much: There is software you don't > have to learn, thus you save a few hours of learning it. But what if > something that requires learning costs you 5 hours to learn, and then saves > you 30 minutes a day? In the long run, this will probably be the better > thing. Stuff with pretty pictures that can be used by illiterates right out of the box used to be called "user friendly". A friend of mine called what you've described as "expert friendly". Systems which are "user friendly" without being flexible - like Windows - are "expert hostile". Systems which are neither user nor expert friendly, aka MVS, are "user hostile". I have nothing against making FreeBSD easier to use or more "user-friendly". Just so long as changes that make it friendlier don't make it less stable, less reliable, less secure, or less flexible. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 14: 1: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 4E9C737B41B; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:01:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:01:07 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Mike Meyer Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1008536351.4c2495@mired.org on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 02:59:11PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Stuff with pretty pictures that can be used by illiterates right out > of the box used to be called "user friendly". A friend of mine called > what you've described as "expert friendly". Systems which are "user > friendly" without being flexible - like Windows - are "expert > hostile". Systems which are neither user nor expert friendly, aka MVS, > are "user hostile". The term "user-friendly" is very abused these days. Experts are users too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 14: 3:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4664C37B417 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-296.wobline.de [212.68.71.17]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBBM3LA06683; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:03:21 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (poison.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.5]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBBM4YT03119; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:04:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBBM3Wi05227; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:03:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:02:57 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1008536351.4c2495@mired.org on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 02:59:11PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD poison.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 10:39PM up 11:02, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 02:59:11PM -0600, Mike Meyer stood up and spoke: > > I have nothing against making FreeBSD easier to use or more > "user-friendly". Just so long as changes that make it friendlier don't > make it less stable, less reliable, less secure, or less flexible. Exactly! What is being sold as user-friendly today is a kind of "one size fits all" system. However, such a thing cannot really be friendly at all, since it makes certain assumptions that all users are equal. However, a system is *not* really friendly until it works for each user as much conforming to that individual's work habits and preferences. It is currently possible to do many things on FreeBSD multiple ways. Ports and packages are an example. Using commands to set up disks compared to using sysinstall to do the same is another one. Away from the base system, the ports tree adds even more possibilities - I have a dozen or so email programs to chose from. User friendliness doesn't neccessarily have to be the opposite of expert friendliness - contrary to popular belief spread by a big software company. FreeBSD can suit both needs, on the one hand booting right into a KDE GUI, on the other hand running entirely in console mode. That is friendly, as it allows users to choose what they prefer and really need. Needless to say, there's nothing wrong with making FreeBSD more user friendly, as long as that doesn't interfere with its flexibility and its other current strengths. Greeting Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 14: 6:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 514BF37B41D; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:06:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:06:20 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Nils Holland Cc: Robert Hough , Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011211140620.B67653@FreeBSD.org> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org>; from nils@tisys.org on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:49:43PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Another real world example: The pine email software is supposed to be easy > to use (that is the goal of the pine project). So, until recently I used > pine, for historical reaons (it was the first ever UNIX MUA I used and I > didn't bother to switch). However, telling pine to correctly filter my mail > was a kind of hard. For this mailing list, for example, messages can be > sent to freebsd-chat@freebsd.org or chat@freebsd.org. Furthermore, that > address may appear either in the To: or CC: header field. In order not to > any messages, I would probably have needed for separate filters. Now, with > mutt and procmail (undoubtedly these are supposed to be harder to use), I > simply put this short thing in my .procmailrc: > > :0: > * ^TO*chat@freebsd.org > freebsd-chat You may also want to take a look at the List-ID line in the headers. This allows you to easily determine where the message came from, if you would like to sort personal reply copies differently. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 14:20:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A742837B419 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29363 invoked by uid 100); 11 Dec 2001 22:20:31 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15382.34479.632853.153669@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:20:31 -0600 To: Eric Melville , Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Melville types: > > Stuff with pretty pictures that can be used by illiterates right out > > of the box used to be called "user friendly". A friend of mine called > > what you've described as "expert friendly". Systems which are "user > > friendly" without being flexible - like Windows - are "expert > > hostile". Systems which are neither user nor expert friendly, aka MVS, > > are "user hostile". > The term "user-friendly" is very abused these days. Experts are users too. > Nils Holland types: > User friendliness doesn't neccessarily have to be the opposite of expert > friendliness - contrary to popular belief spread by a big software company. > FreeBSD can suit both needs, on the one hand booting right into a KDE GUI, > on the other hand running entirely in console mode. That is friendly, as it > allows users to choose what they prefer and really need. You are both right. However, whenever I try to claim that Windows isn't as user-friendly as FreeBSD because it won't do what I, as a user, want it to do (see the ratpoison port for an example of what I want it to do) people tell me I'm crazy. The real problem is, as Nils pointed out, that once you start making things "user-friendly", experts tweaking the insides cause things that don't expect such changes to break. I've seen Windows software that had the CD-ROM wired to D:, and it wouldn't install if you had two disks in the machine. This kind of thing even happens with FreeBSD. I changed LOCALBASE, which means I generally can't use packages, and get to fix ports that assume that everything installs in /usr/local. The latter hasn't happened in a while, though. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 17:51:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B363837B416 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14184 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2001 01:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Dec 2001 01:49:56 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:49:47 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: FW: [Announce] December BAFUG meeting of San Francisco chapter Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- San Francisco BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) December 2001 Meeting The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding its monthly meeting on Thursday, December 13th. This month's meeting will be held at Peter's Cafe in Millbrae. The meeting will start at 7:00 pm. Agenda : ==> Rich Morin has been using BSD since 1984, when he first loaded it onto his Sun Workstation (serial #285). He will give an informal talk on the Meta Project, the FreeBSD Browser, and the new DOSSIER series of documentation collections. All of this has something to do with the integration of documentation and system metadata, or so he believes... ==> We will not be ordering Pizza. Peter's Cafe is a full service restaurant with a good food on the menu. Remember to tip the wait staff. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location : This months meeting will be held at Peter's Cafe which is at 10 El Camino Real in Millbrae. There is plenty parking in their lot. Time : The meeting starts at 7:00ish. Try at get there early and order your food. We generally get kicked out around 10:00 pm. Directions : We are working on directions. Please check the web site for updated directions. WWW info : More info can be found at the following URLs BAFUG - http://www.bafug.{org|com|net} Daemon News - http://www.daemonnews.org Contact : Please contact Josef Grosch or Nicole Harrington before 6pm December 13th so we can have a basic idea of how people are going to show up. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 18:20: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A058137B41B for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1D2093A246; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:19:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:19:54 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FC-AL terminator ? Message-ID: <20011211181954.K76137@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone have a diagram how a FC-AL terminator is built ? Looking for info, can't find anything so far. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 18:58: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FE937B416 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0608.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.200.98] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Dzac-0003lM-00; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:57:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3C16C7B1.1151FCC5@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:57:53 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: Robert Hough , Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > Well, I'd like to dig into this once again, but I have already done so > before. Anyway, let me tell you that I believe that there is no such thing > as "easy to use". I don't know who started wanting to make computers "easy > to use", but these words are really not much more than marketting phrases. SFMOMA -- The San Francisco Museum Of Modern Art -- had an excellent exhibit on industrial design. One of the examples was an emergency telephone. It was a pedestal, with wing-like protrusions on either side (to cut out road noise), a waterproof grille at an angle (covering the the microphone/speaker combination), and a very large yellow button. It was, I think, the epitome of beauty and elegance in industrial design for human factors: its use was obvious and unambiguous... you walked up, put your head inside the "wings", and pressed the big yellow button. Apparently, these units have been deployed in a number of European countries for road-side assistance. Now I'll agree that "easy to use" is bandied about in computer circles these days, in much the same way "multimedia" was, when the first CDROM and sound card machines started shipping in volume. But just because someone lies about something having been done in a product they are selling, doesn't mean that it's not possible to do that thing. So, respectfully, I will have to disagree with you, and claim that computers *can* be made easy to use, but to do it requires will and determination. As to the attracting of clueless people: they are a fact of life; you will never get governmental authorization to process them into dog food, so you might as well accept the fact that they exist, and work out some way that they can do so, with a minimum amount of annoying phone calls asking the rest of us for help because their window won't de-iconify for them. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 19:10:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFE237B41C for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA4026089 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11863 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:10:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:10:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Web Cams Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know anything about web cams and FreeBSD? Specifically, I'm talking about one of the el-cheapo Intel Easy PC web cams. A quick Google search and scan of the ports tree came up with nothing. (When someone hands you something free, you can't turn it up, even if you can't use it. Well, I can't anyway... Perhaps I just obtained a new paperweight.) -- Jeremy 42 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 11 21: 1:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jodeit.com (mail.jodeit.com [207.10.131.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB4337B417 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gdennyj [207.10.131.111] by mail.jodeit.com (SMTPD32-6.06) id A23382D013E; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:50:59 -0500 Message-ID: <00a901c182ca$e40d8320$6f830acf@gdennyj> From: "Denny Jodeit" To: References: Subject: Re: Web Cams Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:07:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Anyone know anything about web cams and FreeBSD? Specifically, I'm > talking about one of the el-cheapo Intel Easy PC web cams. A quick Google > search and scan of the ports tree came up with nothing. > Jeremy, This not a definitive answer, but I once had a box with an ATI All-In-Wonder capture card installed and investigated it's compatibility in FreeBSD, as I was having an Anti-MS moment and was investigating ditching Windows as an OS altogether. I frequently use web cams, both professionally and personally. Although, I did not follow through on the project, I did do a fair amount of research on the AIW card/web casting with FreeBSD. I found the docs and code I needed to do it, but as I stated, I did not do the project at that time. So, FWIW, I believe you can do it. Sorry, I no longer have the URL's bookmarked where I found the info, but I would suggest searching for the ATI All-In-Wonder info. Even if that's not the hardware you are planning to use, it may lead you to a path where you can find information applicable to your hardware. Also, instead of searching for 'web casting', search for 'video capture' in 'BSD archives. This term may yield different results for you. Hope I've helped Denny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 1:33:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpzilla3.xs4all.nl (smtpzilla3.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E7BB37B405 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:33:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from list1.xs4all.nl (list1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.52]) by smtpzilla3.xs4all.nl (8.12.0/8.12.0) with ESMTP id fBC9XXlv031465 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:33:34 +0100 (CET) Received: (from root@localhost) by list1.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28677; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:33:26 +0100 (CET) From: micheloo@xs4all.nl (Michel Oosterhof) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Via: imploder /usr/local/lib/mail/news2mail/news2mail at list1.xs4all.nl Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: 12 Dec 2001 10:33:19 +0100 Organization: XS4ALL, Networking for the masses Message-ID: <9v788v$jc3$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> In-Reply-To: <3C16C7B1.1151FCC5@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [offtopic] tlambert2@mindspring.COM (Terry Lambert) writes: >SFMOMA -- The San Francisco Museum Of Modern Art -- had an excellent >exhibit on industrial design. >One of the examples was an emergency telephone. >It was a pedestal, with wing-like protrusions on either side (to cut >out road noise), a waterproof grille at an angle (covering the the >microphone/speaker combination), and a very large yellow button. >It was, I think, the epitome of beauty and elegance in industrial >design for human factors: its use was obvious and unambiguous... >you walked up, put your head inside the "wings", and pressed the big >yellow button. >Apparently, these units have been deployed in a number of European >countries for road-side assistance. It sounds very much like a dutch emergency telephone. They're placed along the dutch highways every few kilometers. Was it yellow? Here's a picture: http://www.anwb.nl/content/images/historie_ww_1994vraagpaal.JPG michel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 3:36:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C74E37B405 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 03:36:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0012.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.12] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16E7gw-000421-00; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 03:36:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3C174159.5C46290E@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 03:36:57 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michel Oosterhof Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. References: <9v788v$jc3$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michel Oosterhof wrote: > >It was, I think, the epitome of beauty and elegance in industrial > >design for human factors: its use was obvious and unambiguous... > >you walked up, put your head inside the "wings", and pressed the big > >yellow button. > It sounds very much like a dutch emergency telephone. They're placed > along the dutch highways every few kilometers. Was it yellow? > > Here's a picture: > http://www.anwb.nl/content/images/historie_ww_1994vraagpaal.JPG Yes, this is it exactly. I got in trouble for pushing the button on the display version; apparently it's very compelling to other people, as well, and they had a dosant whose job it was to make sure people didn't press the button. They really needed to rope the thing off (the "do not touch" sign was a tiny little thing on the base on which the pedestal sat). I wonder if there are a lot of false calls because of the compelling nature of the single "fulfill your purpose" button... 8^) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 15:36:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECDE37B42B for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([65.8.240.251]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011212233555.TIWJ16198.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:35:55 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:35:52 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <15382.34479.632853.153669@guru.mired.org> References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:20 PM 12/11/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >You are both right. However, whenever I try to claim that Windows >isn't as user-friendly as FreeBSD because it won't do what I, as a >user, want it to do (see the ratpoison port for an example of what I >want it to do) people tell me I'm crazy. Well, I won't say you're crazy, but I disagree slightly with your point. :-) I think that what you're referring to as "user friendly" is what I refer to as "flexible"--being adaptable to a variety of tasks and conditions. Many times the cost of flexible software is that it's a little harder to learn, i.e., a little *less* user-friendly. But most of us on this list are atypical computer users. We'd gladly trade a limiting cookie-cutter design for a more powerful, flexible design any day. But this ignores that we are in the computing minority. And having a rather de-facto standard design elements certainly helps the masses even if it is constricting to the individual. There's nothing like sitting down at another UNIX user's personal computer and trying to get accustomed to his personalized mouse button mapping, follow-the-pointer window focusing, or even directory structure. There's a reason why no car company tries to alter the arrangement of the clutch, gas, and brake pedals, for instance. But my litmus test for ease-of-use tends to be this: How quickly could someone with relevant skills but zero training sit down and figure out how to accomplish a given task? I'm sure anyone on this list could plop down at any Windows box and quickly get a browser, e-mail, spreadsheet, you-name-it going and be doing practical work in a matter of minutes. How long would it take a Windows user to figure out how to do the same on a UNIX system? I shudder to think. Of course, one of the things that continues to confuse me about this ongoing thread is that typically when people cite their reason for loving one OS more than another, they bring up a pet application or feature that has nothing inherently to do with the operating system of choice. X Windows System-style focusing? Your favorite application XYZ? Multiple simultaneous users? Remote administration? Yeah, the other operating systems have got all that too *if* you're willing to learn to use it. I guess that, ultimately, what's user-friendly or easy-to-use depends on the user. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 16: 4:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF3137B416 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20970 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:04:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212170231.04f0ac70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:04:17 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Headless HOWTO? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is there a "headless HOWTO" for FreeBSD? I'm setting up a box which will eventually have to run headless (I can stick a VGA in temporarily), and am not sure how best to set up /etc/ttys and compile the kernel for maximum efficiency. (It'd be nice if I could strip out all video, keyboard, and mouse support to make the kernel nice and lean.) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 16:51:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B70737B419 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 290203EC1; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:52:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260DFBAA6; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:52:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:52:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Headless HOWTO? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212170231.04f0ac70@localhost> Message-ID: <20011212194648.Y53298-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >Is there a "headless HOWTO" for FreeBSD? I'm setting up a box which >will eventually have to run headless (I can stick a VGA in temporarily), >and am not sure how best to set up /etc/ttys and compile the kernel for >maximum efficiency. (It'd be nice if I could strip out all video, keyboard, >and mouse support to make the kernel nice and lean.) I'd read sio(4) which gives a flag to make a given serial port the permanent console. That should be all you need. Otherwise boot -h at the loader prompt will switch between consoles. If you don't have a keyboard or mouse plugged in it should default to sio0 as the console. You might look into a motherboard like some of the newer Supermicro's which have BIOS support for serial console as well. It's nice not to need a monitor for that stuff. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 17:10: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8247137B405 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A62B518F1; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9616C18F0 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:09:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:09:39 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hotmail still uses FreeBSD!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ...according to The Regiter. :) http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/23348.html Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 17:18:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445F837B417 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9C950786E3; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:48:11 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:48:11 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Andrew Kenneth Milton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: GNU Kernel (was: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Message-ID: <20011213114811.D3448@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011211093550.D4BF638CC@overcee.netplex.com.au> <20011211102645.46795.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> <20011210220153.50612.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> <20011210161410.L92148@elvis.mu.org> <3C15AC5A.44BFD2BD@mindspring.com> <20011211183001.B67986@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C15CD07.6D5FC2E7@mindspring.com> <20011212131125.A82733@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C16D226.F169C43D@mindspring.com> <20011212203016.O46324@zeus.theinternet.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011212203016.O46324@zeus.theinternet.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Wednesday, 12 December 2001 at 20:30:17 +1000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: > +-------[ Terry Lambert ]---------------------- >> >> RMS has indicated a willingness to sue people distributing bipartite >> distributions, where the linking is delayed until installation to >> work around the letter of the GPL. Given his religious convictions, >> I can't see him *not*. Factor that into your decision. > > Just to balance this point out; > > Only the copyright holder can do this, what code of any significance has > RMS contributed recently to this or any other project where this would be > a consideration? > > Not everyone has the religious conviction of RMS. In 1983 RMS promised a > kernel for GNU too, it hasn't arrived yet. Sure it has. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 17:19:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AA937B419 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 29A14786E6; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:49:04 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:49:04 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Hiten Pandya Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD Message-ID: <20011213114904.E3448@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <52753.1008153029@critter.freebsd.dk> <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [move to chat] On Wednesday, 12 December 2001 at 2:55:59 -0800, Hiten Pandya wrote: > hi, > why would RMS sue, lets say me, for porting IBM's > piece of GPL'ed code to FreeBSD src/gnu. He won't. He won't even want to. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 17:25:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26EA837B416 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 623B0786E7; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:55:19 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:55:19 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Hiten Pandya , Poul-Henning Kamp , FreeBSD Chat Subject: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Message-ID: <20011213115519.F3448@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <3C17482C.3792DAA9@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C17482C.3792DAA9@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 12 December 2001 at 4:06:04 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Hiten Pandya wrote: >> why would RMS sue, lets say me, for porting IBM's >> piece of GPL'ed code to FreeBSD src/gnu. > > RMS wouldn't, not being directly involved. IBM might. IBM won't. > I am a former IBM employee, of IBM GSB division (Global Small > Business). I am a current IBM employee, in Ozlabs. One of my areas of activity is JFS. > When the GPL JFS was announced, I tried within IBM for a year to get > the code under other terms for use in an IBM GSB product, > specifically, the InterJet. The people involved were on a > religious/marketing GPL crusade, however. It's pretty certain that IBM will never release proprietary code under the BSD license. This is a stated direction, and it's not a "religious/marketing GPL crusade", it's plain common business sense. IBM has a stated policy to help open source projects, but they're not prepared to release code under conditions which would enable their commercial competitors to take the code, use it, and not return to the community. I certainly understand and support this decision (though it was made quite plain that nobody was requiring me to personally agree with it). > With JFS under non-GPL'ed terms, we wuld have been able to get > perhaps another $120 per unit out of the final end customer cost. > In the U.S., this would have let us drop our subscription cost > $10/month. In Japan, it would have dropped ~20,000 Yen from the > total per unit cost. I'm not going to ask you why this should have such drastic and far-reaching effects, but I'll put on record that I have a hard time believing it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 18: 2: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out001pub.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECFA437B416 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by out001pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id fBD22cZf016504 Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:02:38 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA57844; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:02:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:02:27 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headless HOWTO? Message-ID: <20011212180227.A57766@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212170231.04f0ac70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212170231.04f0ac70@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 05:04:17PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is info on the FreeBSD website on how to modify the kernel floppy to use the serial port as console. (Just appends a line into the one of the boot config files on the floppy.) There is also a package called comconsole you can install that will setup the "console" entry in /etc/ttys. The package is nice to have, because you can add it to a scripted install, and end up with a system that comes up headless after the install. If you add entries into /boot/kernel.conf to disable vga0 sc0 and atkbdc0, then you (may) want to rename /etc/rc.syscons to rc.syscons.off. Setting up syscons behavior doesn't pertain to a serial console, and rc.syscons will report errors. Pheonix appears to have a BIOS for 64bit Intel that does serial console redirection. Itox also has some info online that dates back to '98. [RC] On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 05:04:17PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Is there a "headless HOWTO" for FreeBSD? I'm setting up a box which > will eventually have to run headless (I can stick a VGA in temporarily), > and am not sure how best to set up /etc/ttys and compile the kernel for > maximum efficiency. (It'd be nice if I could strip out all video, keyboard, > and mouse support to make the kernel nice and lean.) > > --Brett Glass > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 20:26:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 67DF137B41C for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 70286 invoked by uid 100); 13 Dec 2001 04:26:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:26:36 -0600 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information types: > At 05:20 PM 12/11/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >You are both right. However, whenever I try to claim that Windows > >isn't as user-friendly as FreeBSD because it won't do what I, as a > >user, want it to do (see the ratpoison port for an example of what I > >want it to do) people tell me I'm crazy. > Well, I won't say you're crazy, but I disagree slightly with your point. :-) Actually, it isn't my point, it was someone elses. > I think that what you're referring to as "user friendly" is what I refer to > as "flexible"--being adaptable to a variety of tasks and conditions. Many > times the cost of flexible software is that it's a little harder to learn, > i.e., a little *less* user-friendly. I would agree with that. Flexibility is one of the attributes of what I called "expert-friendly" software. > But most of us on this list are atypical computer users. We'd gladly trade > a limiting cookie-cutter design for a more powerful, flexible design any > day. But this ignores that we are in the computing minority. And having a > rather de-facto standard design elements certainly helps the masses even if > it is constricting to the individual. There's nothing like sitting down at > another UNIX user's personal computer and trying to get accustomed to his > personalized mouse button mapping, follow-the-pointer window focusing, or > even directory structure. Maximize the xterm window, invoke screen, and forget about it. All done. > There's a reason why no car company tries to alter the arrangement > of the clutch, gas, and brake pedals, for instance. Because the industry is over twice as old as ours, and long ago settled on a standard. I believe that cars have been manufactured during my lifetime that deviated from that standard, and I know slightly less important things meet that criteria. Some of them are even critical controls if you live in the right place. And they vary even if you stay with one manufacturer. For instance, have you ever driven a car with a hydromatic transmission? I have no idea what the UI for an F1 car is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't follow that arrangement. > But my litmus test for ease-of-use tends to be this: How quickly could > someone with relevant skills but zero training sit down and figure out how > to accomplish a given task? I'm sure anyone on this list could plop down > at any Windows box and quickly get a browser, e-mail, spreadsheet, > you-name-it going and be doing practical work in a matter of minutes. How > long would it take a Windows user to figure out how to do the same on a > UNIX system? I shudder to think. Are you confusing "familiarity" with "relevant skills"? For instance, I know what the skills relevant to a spreadsheet are - they're taught in accounting classes. Most accountants - even those trained on paper only - would recognize a running spreadsheet as such, and could probably do useful work with it if someone else has already set it up. However, they probably couldn't start with a bare spreadsheet program and get useful work out of it without some training. I have no idea what the "relevant skills" are for "web browsing" and "e-mail". However, what makes it possible for me to sit down in front of a Windows box and do those things is the same thing that makes it possible for me to sit down in front of nearly any generic computer and get something done - I'm familiar with a broad range of computer interfaces, some of which I've even had training in. Note that familiarity may be a disadvantage. Users unfamiliar with any computer who were asked to type a document on the Cat that Raskin designed for Canon had no trouble with it. They just did it and were done. Users who were familiar with computers got nowhere, because they couldn't figure out how to start the word processor. > Of course, one of the things that continues to confuse me about this > ongoing thread is that typically when people cite their reason for loving > one OS more than another, they bring up a pet application or feature that > has nothing inherently to do with the operating system of choice. X > Windows System-style focusing? Your favorite application XYZ? Multiple > simultaneous users? Remote administration? Yeah, the other operating > systems have got all that too *if* you're willing to learn to use it. Um - could you tell me how to get a paned window manager running on any MS-Windows operating system? They're over 50% faster than framed window managers for typical wm applications. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 21:24:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F022A37B419 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBD5O3U74845; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:24:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002b01c18396$61485d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Rick Hamell" , References: Subject: Re: Hotmail still uses FreeBSD!!! Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:23:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Even years ago, Hotmail was running heavily tweaked versions of standard UNIX e-mail software on UNIX servers (possibly Solaris at one time, IIRC). With tens of millions of accounts, it's very difficult to find any standard solution that will scale. UNIX software is easier to modify for special purposes than Windows software (even for Microsoft), and this would largely explain the lingering presence of FreeBSD at Hotmail. Additionally, to achieve parity with Windows 2000 would require more hardware ... and when you are dealing with an application that already puts a strain on whatever hardware you throw at it with an OS as simple as UNIX, trying to make it all run on Windows may be a nearly impossible task. Microsoft used to receive a lot of heat for the fact that they never used their Microsoft Mail product internally (on the server side), even though they tried to sell it as a solution for companies just like themselves, and they are probably still sensitive on that point (today they run Exchange Server internally, the same product that they sell to everyone else). Many other companies more or less competing with MS still use Windows on the desktop, though, so I don't see why it is such a big deal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Hamell" To: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 03:09 Subject: Hotmail still uses FreeBSD!!! > > ...according to The > Regiter. :) http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/23348.html > > Rick > > ******************************************************************* > Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd > Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com > ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 21:36: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BE237B405 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBD5Znx38279; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:35:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Technical Information" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> <15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:35:46 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Are you confusing "familiarity" with "relevant > skills"? No. Using Windows requires far less IT-specific skill than using UNIX, period. As a result, Windows is more prevalent on the desktop, and more suitable for it. At one time (and still today in some ways), the Mac was even more suitable for the desktop, but Apple priced itself out of the picture, and further damaged its position with other exclusionary practices (such as a desire to control all hardware and most of the software). > I have no idea what the "relevant skills" are > for "web browsing" and "e-mail". There aren't many. The point is that you only need the relevant skills to do these things on Windows or a Mac, but you need many other skills in order to do them on a UNIX system, unless you have a UNIX person to set everything up (and maintain everything) for you. > Um - could you tell me how to get a paned > window manager running on any MS-Windows > operating system? They're over 50% faster > than framed window managers for typical wm > applications. Since most desktop machines today are at least ten times faster than they need to be, this is a moot point. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 21:58: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CFF1C37B41B for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:57:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 71097 invoked by uid 100); 13 Dec 2001 05:57:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:57:48 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> <15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org> <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Are you confusing "familiarity" with "relevant > > skills"? > No. You really should only answer questions about someone's intent when they are addressed to you. > > I have no idea what the "relevant skills" are > > for "web browsing" and "e-mail". > There aren't many. The point is that you only need the relevant skills to > do these things on Windows or a Mac, but you need many other skills in order > to do them on a UNIX system, unless you have a UNIX person to set everything > up (and maintain everything) for you. How anyone with any experience doing IT could claim that you don't need those skills for Windows is beyond me. To get email and browsing working on Windows, you need an expert to set everything up - and maintain everything - for you. It's just that there are enough Windows boxes around that it pays for your typical ISP to hire the expert(s). > > Um - could you tell me how to get a paned > > window manager running on any MS-Windows > > operating system? They're over 50% faster > > than framed window managers for typical wm > > applications. > Since most desktop machines today are at least ten times faster than they > need to be, this is a moot point. No, because the time I'm measuring isn't CPU time, but user time. Doing wm things with a paned window manager takes the user less time than doing the same things with a framed window manager. For example, the GOMS measure for changing the active window with my current window manager is 1.75 seconds, but it's 3.05 seconds for a Windows-style interface, dropping to 2.85 if you have a followmouse framed manager. Those all assume the processor is infintely fast; adding processor delays tilts the difference even more against framed managers. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22: 4:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C5937B416; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:04:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24982; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:04:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:04:03 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200112130604.XAA24982@lariat.org> To: grog@FreeBSD.ORG, hitmaster2k@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@critter.freebsd.dk In-Reply-To: <20011213114904.E3448@monorchid.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org RMS would LOVE to see the FreeBSD kernel contaminated by the GPL. Don't touch the code. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22:14:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782FC37B416; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0712.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.202] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EP88-0007fi-00; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:14:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3C18472F.DD3A90D5@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:14:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Hiten Pandya , Poul-Henning Kamp , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <3C17482C.3792DAA9@mindspring.com> <20011213115519.F3448@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > I am a former IBM employee, of IBM GSB division (Global Small > > Business). > > I am a current IBM employee, in Ozlabs. One of my areas of activity > is JFS. Good. Go to w3.ibm.com, and search for "open source". Let me know when you get done reading the 18 page presentation on how to treat GPL'ed code as if it were toxic waste that would instantly mutate any intellectual property into dust. See also the IBM guidelines for the use of Open Source in IBM products, and what code is and isn't vetted, and the IBM approved IBM servers from which you are permitted to obtain the source, after attending the mandatory 3 day "How to treat GPL'ed software as toxic waste" IBM training. > It's pretty certain that IBM will never release proprietary code under > the BSD license. This is a stated direction, and it's not a > "religious/marketing GPL crusade", it's plain common business sense. > IBM has a stated policy to help open source projects, but they're not > prepared to release code under conditions which would enable their > commercial competitors to take the code, use it, and not return to the > community. I certainly understand and support this decision (though > it was made quite plain that nobody was requiring me to personally > agree with it). We are talking an IBM commercial product, and we are not even talking an Open Source license (though the BSD license would have been highly preferrable, it was not a business requirement for our FreeBSD based product). > > With JFS under non-GPL'ed terms, we wuld have been able to get > > perhaps another $120 per unit out of the final end customer cost. > > In the U.S., this would have let us drop our subscription cost > > $10/month. In Japan, it would have dropped ~20,000 Yen from the > > total per unit cost. > > I'm not going to ask you why this should have such drastic and > far-reaching effects, but I'll put on record that I have a hard time > believing it. The power supplies with the sufficient DC holdup time had a per unit BOM (Bill Of Materials) cost of ~$90. Standard ATX power supplies had a per unit BOM cost of ~$30. That's a difference of US$60. Assembly costs would have been approximately equal (assembly was contracted out to Solectron), meaning that there would have been a COGS (Cost Of Goods Sold) difference of ~US$60. For every $1 of COGS, that translates into ~$2 in cost to the customer (include amortized support costs, service costs, warranty costs, weight based shipping differences -- lower for the standard supply, EFI ceritfications which could have been avoided with an external "brick" supply, etc.). That means that there was a cost of $120 to the customer aded to the bottom line. Amortizing this across a 1 year subscription amortization schedule, and this comes out to ~$10/month. You might go as far as a 2 year or even 3 year period (the IRS rules permit amortization of computer equipment for 3 to 5 years). Even at the outside, this would have been $3.33/month. The contract terms were, in fact, public record, and set a minimum of a month-to-month, with preferential price breaks for 1 year and 2 year terms ($10/month or $5/month amortized cost). The NTT contract was for unit sales. The international inflation to Japan is a factor of 2. For $120 in additional cost to customer, this works out to $240, or ~24,000 Yen. My ~20,000 number was conservative. I don't see how the math is that hard to understand. I'm sure your division has a finance and/or channel marketing people available who could justify it for you. Julian Elisher can back me up on the power supply unit costs, FWIW. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22:16:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072E137B416 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:16:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBD6GPx38372; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:16:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:16:25 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > You really should only answer questions about > someone's intent when they are addressed to you. They were. Otherwise the message would have been sent only to the intended recipient. > How anyone with any experience doing IT could > claim that you don't need those skills for > Windows is beyond me. I've observed many Windows users who prove the point. > To get email and browsing working on Windows, > you need an expert to set everything up - and > maintain everything - for you. Do you? If so, that does not bode well for doing the same with UNIX, does it? I know lots of people who have taken PCs out of boxes and set them up with no expert help at all. Including e-mail and browsing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22:25:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296F037B416 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2D350786E3; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:55:13 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:55:13 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Hiten Pandya , Poul-Henning Kamp , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Message-ID: <20011213165513.D3448@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <3C17482C.3792DAA9@mindspring.com> <20011213115519.F3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C18472F.DD3A90D5@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C18472F.DD3A90D5@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 12 December 2001 at 22:14:07 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >>> I am a former IBM employee, of IBM GSB division (Global Small >>> Business). >> >> I am a current IBM employee, in Ozlabs. One of my areas of activity >> is JFS. > > Good. Go to w3.ibm.com, and search for "open source". Let me know > when you get done reading the 18 page presentation on how to treat > GPL'ed code as if it were toxic waste that would instantly mutate any > intellectual property into dust. I've been on the training. I thought that they did a very good job of presenting the issues, and how IBM wanted to support the open source movement without giving up its competitive edge to other large companies. I know that things have changed since you were IBM. I still find it difficult to think that they have changed as much as would be necessary to explain the discrepancy between your viewpoint and my experience. > See also the IBM guidelines for the use of Open Source in IBM > products, Been there, done that. Your point? > and what code is and isn't vetted, and the IBM approved IBM servers > from which you are permitted to obtain the source, after attending > the mandatory 3 day "How to treat GPL'ed software as toxic waste" > IBM training. Haven't done that. As you yourself say, IBM is very fond of the GPL. >> It's pretty certain that IBM will never release proprietary code under >> the BSD license. This is a stated direction, and it's not a >> "religious/marketing GPL crusade", it's plain common business sense. >> IBM has a stated policy to help open source projects, but they're not >> prepared to release code under conditions which would enable their >> commercial competitors to take the code, use it, and not return to the >> community. I certainly understand and support this decision (though >> it was made quite plain that nobody was requiring me to personally >> agree with it). > > We are talking an IBM commercial product, and we are not even talking > an Open Source license (though the BSD license would have been highly > preferrable, it was not a business requirement for our FreeBSD based > product). I'm having trouble following you. JFS was released under the following license (this is taken from linux/fs/jfs/jfs_inode.c): /* * * Copyright (c) International Business Machines Corp., 2000 * * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify * it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by * the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or * (at your option) any later version. * * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See * the GNU General Public License for more details. * * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License * along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software * Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA */ I don't know the exact wording of the GPL, but I can't see any deviation here. Yes, the original code is proprietary. But we are most definitely talking an open source license, even if it's one you don't like. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22:29:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB77B37B41B for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:29:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 71473 invoked by uid 100); 13 Dec 2001 06:29:31 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:29:30 -0600 To: "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> <15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org> <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > You really should only answer questions about > > someone's intent when they are addressed to you. > They were. Otherwise the message would have been sent only to the intended > recipient. No they weren't. They were addressed to a member of a list. > > How anyone with any experience doing IT could > > claim that you don't need those skills for > > Windows is beyond me. > I've observed many Windows users who prove the point. And I've never observed one, and have observed many who prove the exact opposite. > > To get email and browsing working on Windows, > > you need an expert to set everything up - and > > maintain everything - for you. > Do you? If so, that does not bode well for doing the same with UNIX, does > it? Ok, I was wrong - you don't need an expert to set up and install a Unix box on the network. Which happens to be true, assuming you've got the right Unix distribution and network. > I know lots of people who have taken PCs out of boxes and set them up with > no expert help at all. Including e-mail and browsing. Really? They installed Windows on them, and got them configured to talk to their choice of ISP with no outside help from anyone at all, and had no prior experience with computers? I've never seen anyone do that. Everyone I know had Windows installed by someone else, and required some outside assistance - usually in the form of a CDROM from their ISP - to get their network configured. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22:40:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from y3k.shacknet.nu (ts5m-pool0-185.gti.net [208.216.126.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C7C37B416 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from shacknet.nu (localhost.gti.net [127.0.0.1]) by y3k.shacknet.nu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fBD6krY90317; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:46:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from y3k@gti.net) Received: from 198.151.239.42 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mark) by y3k.shacknet.nu with HTTP; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:46:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4290.198.151.239.42.1008226016.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:46:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. From: "Mark Yeck" To: anthony@freebie.atkielski.com In-Reply-To: <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Cc: tech_info@threespace.com, mwm-dated-1008649596.5a3562@mired.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.0.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony writes: > Mike writes: >> I have no idea what the "relevant skills" are >> for "web browsing" and "e-mail". > > There aren't many. The point is that you only need the relevant skills > to do these things on Windows or a Mac, but you need many other skills > in order to do them on a UNIX system, unless you have a UNIX person to > set everything up (and maintain everything) for you. I consider my sister a typical Windows user. She has browsed the internet and read her email under UNIX on two occasions that I know of, with no previous UNIX experience. Both times on Sun workstations, once under OpenBSD, once in Solaris. Her only complaint was that the 'Control' and 'Caps Lock' keys were reversed. She is reasonably intelligent, but i think its unlikely that she would be able to set up networking in either Windows or FreeBSD without assistance, and extremely unlikely that she could install either OS on her own. -mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22:41:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2EF437B417 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBD6ffo90413; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:41:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat" , "Mike Meyer" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:41:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Really? They installed Windows on them, and got > them configured to talk to their choice of ISP > with no outside help from anyone at all, > and had no prior experience with computers? Yes. > I've never seen anyone do that. I have. It takes only one example to disprove your assertion. I don't know of anyone who has done the same with any version of UNIX, but then again, I know hardly anyone using UNIX on the desktop. > Everyone I know had Windows installed by someone > else, and required some outside assistance - usually > in the form of a CDROM from their ISP - to get > their network configured. A product CD-ROM counts as "outside assistance"? In that case, virtually no software can ever be installed without "outside assistance," which makes your assertion moot. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22:44:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B0237B41B for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBD6iGq68350; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:44:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:44:16 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Headless HOWTO? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212170231.04f0ac70@localhost> Message-ID: <20011212224404.I16958-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > Is there a "headless HOWTO" for FreeBSD? I'm setting up a box which > will eventually have to run headless (I can stick a VGA in temporarily), > and am not sure how best to set up /etc/ttys and compile the kernel for > maximum efficiency. (It'd be nice if I could strip out all video, keyboard, > and mouse support to make the kernel nice and lean.) http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-advanced.html -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22:44:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD5F37B41C for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:44:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBD6i0x38433; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:44:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005701c183a1$8cd8b430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mark Yeck" Cc: , , References: <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <4290.198.151.239.42.1008226016.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:44:00 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark writes: > I consider my sister a typical Windows user. She > has browsed the internet and read her email under > UNIX on two occasions that I know of, with no > previous UNIX experience. Anyone can use any system for simple tasks, with no previous experience. The question, though, is whether anyone can install and set up a system for such use without any previous experience or special IT background. For Windows or the Mac, the answer is "yes"; for UNIX, the answer is "no." > She is reasonably intelligent, but i think its > unlikely that she would be able to set up networking > in either Windows or FreeBSD without assistance, > and extremely unlikely that she could install > either OS on her own. Fortunately, Windows comes preinstalled on most new machines, in part for this reason. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 22:59:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 93EFC37B445 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 71861 invoked by uid 100); 13 Dec 2001 06:58:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:58:18 -0600 To: "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> <15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org> <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org> <005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BTW, this is *not* address to Anthony Atkielski , so he has no reason to answer it. > Mike writes: > I have. It takes only one example to disprove your assertion. > > I don't know of anyone who has done the same with any version of UNIX, but > then again, I know hardly anyone using UNIX on the desktop. I do. And I've seen people do that with Unix as well. Since it only takes one example to disprove such an assertion, your original assertion about Unix require an expert to set it up and maintain it is false. > > Everyone I know had Windows installed by someone > > else, and required some outside assistance - usually > > in the form of a CDROM from their ISP - to get > > their network configured. > A product CD-ROM counts as "outside assistance"? In that case, virtually no > software can ever be installed without "outside assistance," which makes > your assertion moot. So if I give someone a floppy with a script that writes the appropriate configuration files on FreeBSD to talk to my favorite ISP, that wouldn't count as "outside assistance"? I take it you don't know how to configure Windows with a paned window manager, since you never answered that question. So much for getting a superior user interface on Windows. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 23: 0:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7715A37B416 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 71910 invoked by uid 100); 13 Dec 2001 07:00:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15384.21003.678808.340863@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:00:27 -0600 To: , Cc: Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <005701c183a1$8cd8b430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <4290.198.151.239.42.1008226016.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> <005701c183a1$8cd8b430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mark writes: > > I consider my sister a typical Windows user. She > > has browsed the internet and read her email under > > UNIX on two occasions that I know of, with no > > previous UNIX experience. > Anyone can use any system for simple tasks, with no previous experience. > The question, though, is whether anyone can install and set up a system for > such use without any previous experience or special IT background. For > Windows or the Mac, the answer is "yes"; for UNIX, the answer is "no." For the few Unix systems you have experience with, the answer may be no. For others, the answer is yes. > > She is reasonably intelligent, but i think its > > unlikely that she would be able to set up networking > > in either Windows or FreeBSD without assistance, > > and extremely unlikely that she could install > > either OS on her own. > Fortunately, Windows comes preinstalled on most new machines, in part for > this reason. Windows doesn't come preinstalled on Suns, SunOS does. In part for this reason. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 23: 9:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB2337B416 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBD79Yx38484; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:09:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat" , "Mike Meyer" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:08:39 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > I do. And I've seen people do that with Unix > as well. Since it only takes one example to > disprove such an assertion, your original > assertion about Unix require an expert to > set it up and maintain it is false. I find that sufficiently implausible that I'd have to see it to believe it. FreeBSD, in particular, cannot be installed by persons with no knowledge of IT. Even installation of NT/2000 server requires that much. > So if I give someone a floppy with a script that > writes the appropriate configuration files on > FreeBSD to talk to my favorite ISP, that wouldn't > count as "outside assistance"? If it is provided as an integral part of the complete installation package, no, it would not count as outside assistance. Outside assistance means having to ask someone questions or asking for intervention during the process. > I take it you don't know how to configure > Windows with a paned window manager, since > you never answered that question. Correct. I've never heard of a paned window manager for Windows. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 12 23:17:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from y3k.shacknet.nu (ts6m-pool0-72.gti.net [208.216.115.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403B237B417 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from shacknet.nu (localhost.gti.net [127.0.0.1]) by y3k.shacknet.nu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fBD7OKY90464; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:24:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from y3k@gti.net) Received: from 198.151.239.42 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mark) by y3k.shacknet.nu with HTTP; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:24:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4476.198.151.239.42.1008228263.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:24:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. From: "Mark Yeck" To: anthony@freebie.atkielski.com In-Reply-To: <005701c183a1$8cd8b430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <005701c183a1$8cd8b430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Cc: y3k@gti.net, tech_info@threespace.com, mwm-dated-1008649596.5a3562@mired.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.0.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony writes: > Mark writes: > Anyone can use any system for simple tasks, with no previous > experience. The question, though, is whether anyone can install and set > up a system for such use without any previous experience or special IT > background. For Windows or the Mac, the answer is "yes"; for UNIX, the > answer is "no." The comment I responded to was about the skills needed to read email or surf the web on either system. >> She is reasonably intelligent, but i think its >> unlikely that she would be able to set up networking >> in either Windows or FreeBSD without assistance, >> and extremely unlikely that she could install >> either OS on her own. > > Fortunately, Windows comes preinstalled on most new machines, in part > for this reason. True. My point was that I dont think that the typical windows user is capable of installing Windows with no previous experience or special IT background. The users I know who have installed Windows have enough knowledge to install FreeBSD. -mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 0:15:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.totalise.co.uk (mail.totalise.co.uk [217.197.192.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B9637B419; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from yahoo.com [80.4.34.175] (hitenp@mail.totalise.co.uk) by mail.totalise.co.uk; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:14:44 +0000 X-WM-Posted-At: mail.totalise.co.uk; Thu, 13 Dec 01 08:14:44 +0000 Message-ID: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:14:57 +0000 From: Hiten Pandya Reply-To: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org, tlambert2@mindspring.com, grog@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, People, my apologies, I am only 15 years old (15 1/2 technically), i haven't been to IBM even to buy a mouse. But the laws of business and competence are same in any part of universe. :-) (get it.. albert einstein.. :-) I would say that, arguing about what IBM likes and dislikes is not really the approach of solving the problem, as how i think accord. to my 'blunt' mentality. :-) The real way to solve this problem is: IBM has release JFS code under the 'General Public License'. What we have to do is ask this question internally to IBM, which Greg might do that for us, if possible; and then we see what the JFS Team from IBM's views are about this. If they think that porting JFS to FreeBSD is a waste of time and energy, because of the licensing issues, than we can take an alternate approach to 'crash recovery' problems and journalling, example: A project called UFS2, which would be our target for improving current UFS code. But if they say 'Yes' or are positive that something can be worked out legally, or according to the license(s), than we can go on and start our project called 'JFS4BSD', and get things sorted that way. If we get positive results by September 2002, that JFS code has been ported in its entirety without affecting FreeBSD or the Licensing terms in any manner of way, than we can possibly, merge it (under src/gnu or something) to FreeBSD. In a nutshell: We should ask IBM JFS (Core) Team, and see what they say; We Start the Project || UFS2. If you would like my notes on JFS4BSD (porting), please let me know offlist about why i have thought of porting JFS to FreeBSD. Thank You, =Hiten = --------------------------------------------------- Born on the Day the First Ever Shuttle was launched --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 0:36:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B410337B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0141.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.141] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ERLw-0007Rg-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:36:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3C186891.FDC62A2F@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:36:33 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: grog@FreeBSD.ORG, hitmaster2k@yahoo.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@critter.freebsd.dk Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD References: <200112130604.XAA24982@lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > RMS would LOVE to see the FreeBSD kernel contaminated by the > GPL. Don't touch the code. Brett: don't go of half cocked. Contamination is not an issue, since most FreeBSD won't ever let it be. You need to read the whole thread. The issue at hand is whether someone who is able to do the port of JFS will volunteer their time to the effort, given the license problem. Most of us have answered "You want it, do it yourself". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 0:36:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.totalise.co.uk (mail.totalise.co.uk [217.197.192.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C2837B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from yahoo.com [80.4.34.175] (hitenp@mail.totalise.co.uk) by mail.totalise.co.uk; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:35:59 +0000 X-WM-Posted-At: mail.totalise.co.uk; Thu, 13 Dec 01 08:35:59 +0000 Message-ID: <3C18687C.17C90F80@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:36:12 +0000 From: Hiten Pandya Reply-To: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org, tlambert2@mindspring.com, grog@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, People, my apologies, I am only 15 years old (15 1/2 technically), i haven't been to IBM even to buy a mouse. But the laws of business and competence are same in any part of universe. :-) (get it.. albert einstein.. :-) I would say that, arguing about what IBM likes and dislikes is not really the approach of solving the problem, as how i think accord. to my 'blunt' mentality. :-) The real way to solve this problem is: IBM has release JFS code under the 'General Public License'. What we have to do is ask this question internally to IBM, which Greg might do that for us, if possible; and then we see what the JFS Team from IBM's views are about this. If they think that porting JFS to FreeBSD is a waste of time and energy, because of the licensing issues, than we can take an alternate approach to 'crash recovery' problems and journalling, example: A project called UFS2, which would be our target for improving current UFS code. But if they say 'Yes' or are positive that something can be worked out legally, or according to the license(s), than we can go on and start our project called 'JFS4BSD', and get things sorted that way. If we get positive results by September 2002, that JFS code has been ported in its entirety without affecting FreeBSD or the Licensing terms in any manner of way, than we can possibly, merge it (under src/gnu or something) to FreeBSD. In a nutshell: We should ask IBM JFS (Core) Team, and see what they say; We Start the Project || UFS2. If you would like my notes on JFS4BSD (porting), please let me know offlist about why i have thought of porting JFS to FreeBSD. Thank You, =Hiten = --------------------------------------------------- Born on the Day the First Ever Shuttle was launched --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 0:39:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA28D37B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0141.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.141] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EROf-0000p8-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:39:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3C18693A.D2093A32@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:39:22 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I know lots of people who have taken PCs out of boxes and set them up with > no expert help at all. Including e-mail and browsing. Can you list their IP addresses to save the crackers the work of doing port scans to find them? It will make it ever so much easier to turn the boxes into DDOS robots. K PLZ THX. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 0:42:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4545437B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBD8g5x38776; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:42:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00a101c183b2$0c496b00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C18693A.D2093A32@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:42:06 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Can you list their IP addresses to save the > crackers the work of doing port scans to find > them? Most of them use dial-up connections. I don't know the IP addresses of those who have broadband connections, and in any case, they are not likely to be static IP addresses. Additionally, I would not aid anyone intent on breaking the law. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 0:45:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.totalise.co.uk (mail.totalise.co.uk [217.197.192.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF5A37B419; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from yahoo.com [80.4.34.175] (hitenp@mail.totalise.co.uk) by mail.totalise.co.uk; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:44:30 +0000 X-WM-Posted-At: mail.totalise.co.uk; Thu, 13 Dec 01 08:44:30 +0000 Message-ID: <3C186A3B.43736B0D@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:43:39 +0000 From: Hiten Pandya Reply-To: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: phk@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, People, my apologies, I am only 15 years old (15 1/2 technically), i haven't been to IBM even to buy a mouse. But the laws of business and competence are same in any part of universe. :-) (get it.. albert einstein.. :-) I would say that, arguing about what IBM likes and dislikes is not really the approach of solving the problem, as how i think accord. to my 'blunt' mentality. :-) The real way to solve this problem is: IBM has release JFS code under the 'General Public License'. What we have to do is ask this question internally to IBM, which Greg might do that for us, if possible; and then we see what the JFS Team from IBM's views are about this. If they think that porting JFS to FreeBSD is a waste of time and energy, because of the licensing issues, than we can take an alternate approach to 'crash recovery' problems and journalling, example: A project called UFS2, which would be our target for improving current UFS code. But if they say 'Yes' or are positive that something can be worked out legally, or according to the license(s), than we can go on and start our project called 'JFS4BSD', and get things sorted that way. If we get positive results by September 2002, that JFS code has been ported in its entirety without affecting FreeBSD or the Licensing terms in any manner of way, than we can possibly, merge it (under src/gnu or something) to FreeBSD. In a nutshell: We should ask IBM JFS (Core) Team, and see what they say; We Start the Project || UFS2. If you would like my notes on JFS4BSD (porting), please let me know offlist about why i have thought of porting JFS to FreeBSD. Thank You, =Hiten = --------------------------------------------------- Born on the Day the First Ever Shuttle was launched --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 1: 2:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE6237B419; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0141.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.141] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ERl2-0002uU-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:02:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:02:29 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Hiten Pandya , Poul-Henning Kamp , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <3C17482C.3792DAA9@mindspring.com> <20011213115519.F3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C18472F.DD3A90D5@mindspring.com> <20011213165513.D3448@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > I know that things have changed since you were IBM. I still find it > difficult to think that they have changed as much as would be > necessary to explain the discrepancy between your viewpoint and my > experience. I left IBM a year ago last September. When IBM acquired Whistle, they DEMANDED that we remove SQUID, which was planned to be in the next release of the software for the next generation product, as it infringed 5 IBM patents, and they did not want to grant license to use those patents, royalty free, by shipping a product with SQUID on it. I think perhaps some of the discrepancy is that you live in a country which does not recognize software patents the way the U.S. does. > > See also the IBM guidelines for the use of Open Source in IBM > > products, > > Been there, done that. Your point? Source has to be vetted to not embody IBM patents, so you are always running down-rev versions of the code that have been through the vetting process, and must download them from internal IBM servers, rather than the net, so that no patented code can "sneak in". My point is that IBM is backing Linux and the GPL purely for marketing reasons, not legal or technical reasons. [ ... ] > Haven't done that. As you yourself say, IBM is very fond of the GPL. No. IBM marketing is fond of the Linux bandwagon. IBM legal really dislikes it. > > We are talking an IBM commercial product, and we are not even talking > > an Open Source license (though the BSD license would have been highly > > preferrable, it was not a business requirement for our FreeBSD based > > product). > > I'm having trouble following you. JFS was released under the > following license (this is taken from linux/fs/jfs/jfs_inode.c): And if they had been willing to release under another license internally to IBM, they would have saved at least 1/8th of a million dollars, that I'm personally able to document. Clearly, their reasons were not technically or product motivated. [ ... ] > I don't know the exact wording of the GPL, but I can't see any > deviation here. Yes, the original code is proprietary. But we are > most definitely talking an open source license, even if it's one you > don't like. Big deal. It's not commercially useful, even interally to IBM, for anything other than marketing blather. For the same reasons, a GPL'ed JFS port to FreeBSD would not be commercially useful, except as IBM/Linux marketing blather. I would much rather write a compatible JFS from scratch, to get out from under the license which makes it useless for embedded systems or other useful work. If it's IBMs intent that the JFS not be adopted by competitors, then it loses al utility to anyone but IBM as a PR puff piece. -- As an overall business philosophy aside: frankly, I don't buy your unified view of IBMs motivations; from my personal experience, business units competed more than they cooperated, and IBM was rarely unified on anything: it's not a single-minded entity. It doesn't take a genius to do the games theoretic math to see that the new variable pay program, which takes everyone in band 10 or higher, and makes their variable pay _more_ contingent on their division performance, while making everyone in band 9 and below's variable pay _more_ contingent on the overall company performance, only made divisions _more_ cut throat towards each other, not less (I guess they figured everyone with math skills was in research and not in the classic banding system). And that's just one systemic example. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 1:34: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0F737B50B; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0032.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.32] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ESFB-0000DD-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:33:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:33:10 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, grog@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hiten Pandya wrote: > IBM has release JFS code under the 'General Public License'. What > we have to do is ask this question internally to IBM, which Greg > might do that for us, if possible; and then we see what the JFS > Team from IBM's views are about this. This whole legal discussion stemmed from whether or not you can have a root FS that was JFS, and still comply with the GPL. There are several ways to do this with a JFS port; the last five skate by on technicalities, while the first simply disregards the license entirely: 1) Statically link JFS into a distribution kernel, and then distribute it, in violation of the GPL. o IBM would hate this; they hate people violating licenses. 2) Statically link a kernel as part of the installation process, so that you are technically not distributing a kernel that has GPL'ed code linked into it. o IBM would hate this, and RMS has sued over this before, and won a settlement (no binding case law in the U.S., yet). This is legally risky, if Greg is right, and the intent was to prevent commercial use of the code, since you defeat their intent. Further, case law in the U.S. favors the plaintiff, due to historical interface copyright issues (RMS argued a crypto library was GPL'ed for being written to interface only to GPL'ed code, since there were no other instances, and thus this was an attempt to subvert the intent of the licensor). 3) Provide the capability to build a kernel with a JFS, but provide no means of installing a FreeBSD system configured this way automatically. o This holds the least risk; it is also the least generally useful implementation, since people would need to build their own release CDROMs locally to be able to successfully obtain native JFS installs; you will never be able to ship a product with such a FreeBSD preinstalled on it. This is potentially legally risky if the company is ever sold, most particularly if its assets are sold seperately (the company is a legal entity, so a bulk sale might be OK), since you can not legally transfer ownership of the binaries, since it is impossible to compy with the GPL on the JFS code. FWIW: IBM made Whistle rip SQUID out _before_ the sale of Whistle to IBM was made final; however Whistle was privately held at the time. 4) Build boot code that can at least read JFS, and load the real JFS as a kernel module. o Since you have to deal with all the lookup and log version selection issues, this is more than half way to a reimplementation without the GPL. This is legally risky, if Greg is right, and the intent was to prevent commercial use of the code, since you defeat their intent. 5) Use an alternate boot partition of a different FS type (e.g. FAT32 or FFS), and load the JFS module from there. o This is harder than option #3, since it requires minimally that union mounts work, since mounts over mount points before the kernel is booted can't work, and therefore for your / to be JFS, it will have to be mounted over top of the boot /, which would be non-JFS. This is legally risky, if Greg is right, and the intent was to prevent commercial use of the code, since you defeat their intent. 6) Write a JFS compatible FS, not using the IBM JFS code. o It would be difficult to prove "clean room" techniques, and court cases in the U.S. recently have decided in increasingly high barriers to clean-room coding. This is legally risky, if Greg is right, and the intent was to prevent commercial use of the code, since you defeat their intent. > If they think that porting JFS to FreeBSD is a waste of time and > energy, because of the licensing issues, than we can take an > alternate approach to 'crash recovery' problems and journalling, As I said before: feel free to write the code. Just don't expect people who, philosophically, want the FreeBSD code to be usable (and used!) as a source of reference implementations to participate in this process. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 1:36: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web21107.mail.yahoo.com (web21107.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C4D0237B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:35:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.254.0.5] by web21107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:35:55 PST Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:35:55 -0800 (PST) From: Hiten Pandya Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) To: Terry Lambert Cc: grog@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, (to -Terry) however, as you were saying that you would a JFS compatible code from scratch then porting their code to FreeBSD, if given the permission, would you do it... practically, it takes up a lot of effort to write the JFS code, I would say if you go and read the JFS code, and start out with the binary trees, you will know that we will not be able to write JFS compatible code by our gold release (5.0), and this and other filesystems would be a major change not a minor one. It is better to port JFS then re-inventing the wheel, and we will get a lot of help from outsiders. There has been quite an argument about this at daemonnews, go to: http://daily.daemonnews.org/ and search for JFS. As there has been discussion about this at freebsd-fs mailing list also. The reason i started this discuss if starting out this project would be good or not - from a technical point of view, and not from a political point of view about IBM. Forgive me for my bluntness but no offense. As i have also said, porting a thing massive as JFS would be hard for me alone, and i need help from fellow FreeBSD developers. Thanks =Hiten = ===== -Hiten, Thank You, Yours Sincerely, Hiten Pandya, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 1:38:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4D337B417 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0032.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.32] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ESJ6-0001fG-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:37:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1876E5.E2FF3B1D@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:37:41 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C18693A.D2093A32@mindspring.com> <00a101c183b2$0c496b00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > Can you list their IP addresses to save the > > crackers the work of doing port scans to find > > them? > > Most of them use dial-up connections. I don't know the IP addresses of > those who have broadband connections, and in any case, they are not likely > to be static IP addresses. > > Additionally, I would not aid anyone intent on breaking the law. You already did, by installing Windows. You would be absolutely appalled at the cyber warfare capabilities that are already out there, dpeloyed by crackers, aided and abetted by Windows' poor security. Have you ever heard the term "attractive nuisance"? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 1:59:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC0E37B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id A69FE3EC1; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2790BAA6; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:00:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:00:05 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Lehey , Hiten Pandya , Poul-Henning Kamp , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20011213044944.L56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >My point is that IBM is backing Linux and the GPL purely for >marketing reasons, not legal or technical reasons. I've recently sat in on discussion with IBM Sales on their Beowulf cluster offerings and been enlightened as to their view on Linux and GPL'd software. The techs along with the sales team all seemed to agree that Linux as a scientific computing solution was inevitable and that the only way IBM was going to continue to make money in that market was to focus a significant amount of development resources on preparing value add for the Linux cluster market. Hence the deployment of their recent Top500 hits like Platinum, the 512 node dual Processor PIII cluster at NCSA, and the 1024 node single processor PIII cluster at Shell Oil. They realize that the utility and market for future IBM Power architecture SMP designs like the SP series machines is shrinking and that they must start providing Linux solutions that are better than the other guys'. They're currently doing this in the form of cluster management software and onboard service processors for computer and infrastructure nodes, as well as a partnership with Myricom to offer Mryinet 2000 hardware with all IBM cluster offerings. I was impressed by just how much the IBM global sales force /gets it/ in terms of high performance scientific computing. Their support of Linux solutions, at least in this market space, was not driven by IBM marketing or IBM legal, but rather seems to have been pushed by the techs and sold directly to the sales force. IBM provides custom, non-GPLd management software with all of their cluster offerings. This is completely independent of all work they are doing on the highly visible OSCAR cluster management project. They already have their own internally developed solution and all of their contributions to OSCAR are not compromising that value add. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 2: 8:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3358E37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:08:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id B29273EBF; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBCEBAA6; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:09:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:09:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mark Yeck , , , Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <005701c183a1$8cd8b430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20011213050340.A56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Anyone can use any system for simple tasks, with no previous experience. >The question, though, is whether anyone can install and set up a system for >such use without any previous experience or special IT background. For >Windows or the Mac, the answer is "yes"; for UNIX, the answer is "no." Don't be so ready to generalize. First of all the Mac OS X product would fall under the category UNIX, whether Apple is interested in the Open Group's trademark or not. It is certainly simple enough to configure for the average user. I also challenge you to tell me that a brand new SGI workstation fresh out of the box is not a breeze to configure. Ever setup a brand new O2 or Octane? If someone (like the manufacturer on a new machine) has already loaded IRIX for you it's as simple as turning it on and stepping through a set of intuitive menus known as EZSetup. From here you can setup a user account and configure networking either via DHCP or a static configuration. Finish EZSetup and reboot the machine and you're ready to login, use the Toolchest to launch a Web Browser, or the Applications Browser to launch any other number of programs. You can get quite a bit done under IRIX before you ever need to open a shell. In fact, the SGI removable media daemon places shortcuts to your CDROM, floppy, DAT drive, IndyCam, or whatever other peripherals you might have right on your desktop for easy access to their contents. One might even say that that concept along with a number of other UI devices were stolen from SGI by Microsoft for the Windows 95 product since SGI's Indigo Magic desktop has been around longer than the Windows 9x product line. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 2:57:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10B637B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBDAZLH20733; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:35:21 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:35:21 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Headless HOWTO? Message-ID: <20011213103521.D11856@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212170231.04f0ac70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UfEAyuTBtIjiZzX6" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212170231.04f0ac70@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 05:04:17PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --UfEAyuTBtIjiZzX6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 05:04:17PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Is there a "headless HOWTO" for FreeBSD? I'm setting up a box which > will eventually have to run headless (I can stick a VGA in temporarily),= =20 > and am not sure how best to set up /etc/ttys and compile the kernel for > maximum efficiency. (It'd be nice if I could strip out all video, keyboar= d, > and mouse support to make the kernel nice and lean.) http://www.mostgraveconcern.com/freebsd/sercon.html which is part of http://www.mostgraveconcern.com/freebsd/ N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --UfEAyuTBtIjiZzX6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjwYhGkACgkQk6gHZCw343WdFQCfZ8iWibU/zwncp5r5snaUrug2 QVsAn0PPLwG2Axsq9LUl+ukhLzQv0zfa =XcEX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UfEAyuTBtIjiZzX6-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 3: 5:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4A137B416; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 9D9FE3EBF; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F594BAA5; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:06:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:06:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Terry Lambert Cc: , , , Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >As I said before: feel free to write the code. Just don't expect >people who, philosophically, want the FreeBSD code to be usable >(and used!) as a source of reference implementations to participate >in this process. That fact that this thread had to even exist is unforunate. We won't go into the GPL is evil aspect, since it's been pretty well covered elsewhere on the web by various people. I would mention that for all of the reasons mentioned herein porting JFS is, as should be obvious by now, a very risky project straddling ugly licensing issues. I also don't know what makes JFS a better candidate for porting than any of the other GPL'd filesystems. Those who have significant involvement with the Linux community will note that the Linux port of JFS doesn't get nearly as much publicity or high profile use as the Linux port of XFS. I can personally attest to the quality of the XFS code. If you go to: http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/xfs_users.html you'll see a testimonial from my boss at the bottom of the page under the heading "Vanderbilt University Center for Structural Biology". Whether it was JFS or XFS, having a journaling file system port could be quite useful, even if it's not available as the root FS. For instance, with one of our large fileservers it would be a large win to be able to put FreeBSD on the system with the system drive running FFS w/ SoftUpdates, and attach a disk array to it which was using a journaling FS like XFS. The journaling is not as important on the system disk, in fact on most of those disk servers the system disk can die and be replaced within the hour since it's a pretty simple configuration. Where it's a real win is with the large filesystems. I know that NetBSD has begun hacking on LFS again, and seem to have it working reasonably well. I have not read the LFS papers so I'm not familiar with how comparable it would be to a system like JFS or XFS, but if someone who knows more about it would care to comment it might be interesting to see just how feasible it is as a solution for FreeBSD. It certainly has an attractive license. There also appears to be some various work scattered across the web on BSD filesystems which falls in between some of the cracks of this discussion, like this: http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~stein/wafs/ One would also be curious if there are companies out there which might be persuaded to help out BSD with a journaling filesystem technology. For instance what is Compaq's stance on something like AdvFS: http://www.tru64unix.compaq.com/unix/advfs.html Or Auspex's stance on FastFlo: http://www.auspex.com/prod/software.html Or Novell's 64-bit journaling FS as part of their NSS offering? http://support.novell.com/cgi-bin/search/searchtid.cgi?/2942686.htm (their website is pretty convoluted so I had trouble locating the whitepaper they used to have up) What about the HTFS (high throughput fs) journaling FS used in SCO OpenServer? Perhaps with Caldera's recent moves to open source part of the original AT&T unix sources, they might be persuaded to jump on the IBM/SGI/etc bandwagon and open source their journaling FS. Maybe they can be persuaded to use a BSD license on the merits that their journaling FS could become a standard like other BSD licensed code has done. AtheOS contains a journaling FS based on the BeFS design from the BeFS book. One wonders if either of these FSes could be made available under a suitable license. How about the Protected File System (PFS) from the Stein paper? http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix01/stein.html I don't have a Usenix membership to get at the paper or I'd comment further. Was there any sample code included and would it be feasible to remove the checksumming code while keeping the actual filesystem and journaling intact? Always looking for a good filesystem discussion, Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 4:24:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5784037B41F for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 04:24:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBDCOax39206; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:24:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00ad01c183d1$22294ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C18693A.D2093A32@mindspring.com> <00a101c183b2$0c496b00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1876E5.E2FF3B1D@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:24:37 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > You already did, by installing Windows. This is the sort of hyperbole that reflects very poorly on virtually every group using software other than Windows. The average person doesn't hate Microsoft; many are quite pleased with its software. When you come across as a rabid hater of the company, and it becomes apparent that all of your actions and recommendations are motivated by this hatred, rather than by a legitimate interest in using the best tool for the job, your credibility erodes significantly. It is one thing to argue the merits of FreeBSD on technical and other bases to a person for whom the OS might be a viable option. It is quite another to begin an adolescent rant against Microsoft that ultimately gives disinterested parties the impression that the only reason to install anything non-Microsoft is out of hatred for that company. As I've said, most people do _not_ hate Microsoft, so if that appears to be your only reason for recommending anything else, chances are that they'll stay with Microsoft. Additionally, Microsoft bashers often appear so labile and volatile in comparison to normal IT professionals that some may avoid the former just out of a desire for security. > You would be absolutely appalled at the cyber > warfare capabilities that are already out there, > dpeloyed by crackers, aided and abetted by > Windows' poor security. If the Mac were the leading desktop platform, crackers would be concentrating on methods of compromising that system's security instead. This has nothing to do with the intrinisic security of an OS, and everything to do with the market dominance of an OS. Targeting Windows gives you far more potential targets than targeting any other OS. In the area of security, it might be wise for UNIX users not to point any fingers, as UNIX security is very poor indeed. I shudder to think what sorts of problems we would be having if UNIX were on every desktop. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 4:27:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0B937B421 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 04:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBDCR5x39216; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:27:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00b201c183d1$7f00d8d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: "Mark Yeck" , , , References: <20011213050340.A56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:27:06 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brandon writes: > First of all the Mac OS X product would fall > under the category UNIX ... No more so than the firmware in my router. > I also challenge you to tell me that a > brand new SGI workstation fresh out of > the box is not a breeze to configure. I've never used one, so I cannot comment. How much do these cost, compared to the average PC? > One might even say that that concept along > with a number of other UI devices were stolen > from SGI by Microsoft for the Windows 95 > product since SGI's Indigo Magic desktop has > been around longer than the Windows 9x product > line. That would be wishful thinking. I doubt that SGI has ever even appeared on Microsoft's radar. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 5:16: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CAA37B41C for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.39] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EVhs-0001AI-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:15:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3C18A9F1.2C2978D3@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:15:29 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C18693A.D2093A32@mindspring.com> <00a101c183b2$0c496b00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1876E5.E2FF3B1D@mindspring.com> <00ad01c183d1$22294ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > You already did, by installing Windows. > > This is the sort of hyperbole that reflects very poorly on virtually every > group using software other than Windows. You obviously don't read email headers. This is not hyperbole; I could reflect your entire "counterargument" back to you based on your statements about UNIX. > > You would be absolutely appalled at the cyber > > warfare capabilities that are already out there, > > dpeloyed by crackers, aided and abetted by > > Windows' poor security. > > If the Mac were the leading desktop platform, crackers would be > concentrating on methods of compromising that system's security instead. > This has nothing to do with the intrinisic security of an OS, and everything > to do with the market dominance of an OS. Targeting Windows gives you far > more potential targets than targeting any other OS. This is not true. The majority of problems are obvious, and easy to either fix or mitigate. It s trivial, for example, to write a firewall program that hooks in at the WINSOCK level, and prevents active external attacks. Microsoft sells such a program, as a seperate add-on, when in reality it would be a much more valuable intrinsic to the OS than, for example, Internet Explorer. The remainder of the problems are Trojan related; unfortunately, almost every program which uses the HTML rendering component for data from an outbound connection to the net can be manipulated, since there are not stringent controls on the pigybacking of data or commands to the local machine, on top of legitimate traffic, whereby an outbound connection on port 80 can be forced on the software in question. This is true of the MSN, AOL, and Yahoo instant messengers, Real Player, Quicktime, Shockwave Flash, etc., etc..; not to mention email based transmission of attacks via OutLook, most of which could be corrected by correct parsing of RFC 2141, such that meaning was not assigned to message headers or a MIME part until all the data had been downloaded, rather than attempting to interpret it based on partial data _during_ download. Any client/server program, where the control stream is not restricted to particular command sequences is at risk of such exploitation. Add to this the amplification effects of CDN's like Akamai, where a single hacked sucbscriber server can thereafter distribute worms, "Back Orifice", and other code, and you have a formidable set of agregate risks. > In the area of security, it might be wise for UNIX users not to > point any fingers, as UNIX security is very poor indeed. Please back up these claims. I'll accept any OpenBSD root compromise you can name as evidence. > I shudder to think what sorts of problems we would be having if > UNIX were on every desktop. Blantant inability to run the most popular viruses? ID based Compartmentalization of exploits to non-privileged user IDs limiting attack damage significantly? In truth, hetrogeneous environments offer the most saftey, where there is no single dominant system, and therefore no single dominant weakness available to exploit. So it is the very "success" of a single platform which endangers us all. It was very tempting, a few months back, to write code that would use one of the known IIS exploits to install FreeBSD, Apache, Front Page Extensions, and ASP services (under Linux emulation) on any IIS server which had not been patched, and then copy the previous content back onto the system, including a "boot screen" image of whatever was on the console screen at the time of the crack. As obviously inmical as such an idea is, I'm sure that the vast majority of sites so cracked would get their first clue that an attack had taken place when they realized they didn't have to reboot their web server that week. It would have been an amusing demo at "DefCon"... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 5:41:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BAEB337BD75 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 05:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 75496 invoked by uid 100); 13 Dec 2001 13:36:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15384.44753.782749.152450@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:36:17 -0600 To: "FreeBSD Chat" , "Mike Meyer" Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> <15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org> <003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org> <005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > I do. And I've seen people do that with Unix > > as well. Since it only takes one example to > > disprove such an assertion, your original > > assertion about Unix require an expert to > > set it up and maintain it is false. > I find that sufficiently implausible that I'd have to see it to believe it. > FreeBSD, in particular, cannot be installed by persons with no knowledge of > IT. Even installation of NT/2000 server requires that much. Odd, as I known people with no IT training whatsoever who have installed FreeBSD. Of course, they have also installed Windows, so they are more familiar with the OS installation process than the average Windows user. Which was what I was getting at when I asked tech_info the question you answered. In any case, FreeBSD - at least on x86 - isn't a particularly easy Unix install. Risc systems are typically much easier to install, as they don't have to worry about screwing up an existing installation of another OS. > > So if I give someone a floppy with a script that > > writes the appropriate configuration files on > > FreeBSD to talk to my favorite ISP, that wouldn't > > count as "outside assistance"? > If it is provided as an integral part of the complete installation package, > no, it would not count as outside assistance. Outside assistance means > having to ask someone questions or asking for intervention during the > process. AOL's CDROM's aren't part of "the complete installation package". They're an add-on package that configures the system to talk to AOL. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 6:26:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5730E37B41A; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29064; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:26:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213072327.043556b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:26:36 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD Cc: grog@FreeBSD.ORG, hitmaster2k@yahoo.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@critter.freebsd.dk In-Reply-To: <3C186891.FDC62A2F@mindspring.com> References: <200112130604.XAA24982@lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:36 AM 12/13/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >Brett: don't go of half cocked. Contamination is not an issue, since >most FreeBSD won't ever let it be. You need to read the whole thread. I've read the thread, and I'm concerned. Already, FreeBSD simply CANNOT BE BUILT and WILL NOT RUN IN THE DEFAULT INSTALL without GPLed code. This means that it is already contaminated, and it is truly sad that the project leadership has not made removing this contamination a primary goal. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 6:38:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (esplanaden.cybercity.dk [212.242.40.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6F937B420; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBDEak401157; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:36:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , grog@FreeBSD.ORG, hitmaster2k@yahoo.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:26:36 MST." <4.3.2.7.2.20011213072327.043556b0@localhost> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:36:46 +0100 Message-ID: <1155.1008254206@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.3.2.7.2.20011213072327.043556b0@localhost>, Brett Glass writes: >At 01:36 AM 12/13/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >>Brett: don't go of half cocked. Contamination is not an issue, since >>most FreeBSD won't ever let it be. You need to read the whole thread. > >I've read the thread, and I'm concerned. Already, FreeBSD simply >CANNOT BE BUILT and WILL NOT RUN IN THE DEFAULT INSTALL without >GPLed code. This means that it is already contaminated, and it >is truly sad that the project leadership has not made removing >this contamination a primary goal. Brett, I've been working on FreeBSD since the very beginning, yet I have a hard time judging your claim above as either true or false. I'm not having a hard time because I don't know enough about FreeBSD, our kernel, our build environment or our installation procedure, but because your claim is vague and incomplete. Your statement is comparable to the tabloid headline: "NASA cause of DEATH by launching SHUTTLE!" (The article talked about birds nesting stoopid places.) You will never sway the FreeBSD project with such creative headline writing. If you can't communicate any other way then please go away. I'm sure OpenBSD with their more strict attitude to GPL will find your "uncompromising" zealotism welcome. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 6:39:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F2437B41B for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:39:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBDEclU00305; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:38:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000001c183e3$e30bf0f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org> <004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C18693A.D2093A32@mindspring.com> <00a101c183b2$0c496b00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1876E5.E2FF3B1D@mindspring.com> <00ad01c183d1$22294ca0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C18A9F1.2C2978D3@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:24:39 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > You obviously don't read email headers. Neither do people making acquisition decisions for new software. > This is not hyperbole; I could reflect your > entire "counterargument" back to you based on > your statements about UNIX. No need. Everything I've said is already archived online. > This is not true. It is completely true. There is nothing unique about Windows, except that it is currently the market leader on the desktop. > Please back up these claims. No need. We are all familiar with UNIX here, and its security flaws have already been examined and explained in exhaustive detail by persons more expert than myself. > Blantant inability to run the most popular viruses? The most popular viruses will always be the viruses that attack the most popular software. Therefore, if UNIX were the leader on the desktop, the most popular viruses would be UNIX viruses. > In truth, hetrogeneous environments offer the > most saftey, where there is no single dominant > system, and therefore no single dominant weakness > available to exploit. I agree. Unfortunately, such environments are often costly in other ways that may outweigh the de facto greater security. > So it is the very "success" of a single platform > which endangers us all. Not those of us who do not run that platform. > It was very tempting, a few months back, to > write code that would use one of the known > IIS exploits to install FreeBSD, Apache, > Front Page Extensions, and ASP services (under > Linux emulation) on any IIS server which had > not been patched ... Really? Tempting to whom? I've never felt any temptation to vandalize computer systems or commit other crimes. > As obviously inmical as such an idea is, I'm > sure that the vast majority of sites so cracked > would get their first clue that an attack had > taken place when they realized they didn't have to > reboot their web server that week. And the cracker might get his first clue of what hard time in a federal prison is like, too. > It would have been an amusing demo at "DefCon"... I suspect that people at DefCon are easily amused, particularly by things that bring suffering to others. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 6:52:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964C337B41A; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29309; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:52:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213074611.01b923a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:52:07 -0700 To: Poul-Henning Kamp From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD Cc: Terry Lambert , grog@FreeBSD.ORG, hitmaster2k@yahoo.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1155.1008254206@critter.freebsd.dk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:36 AM 12/13/2001, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >I've been working on FreeBSD since the very beginning, yet I have >a hard time judging your claim above as either true or false. Why? It is objectively true that FreeBSD, when installed using the usual installer (sysinstall), depends upon GPLed software. The installation process ITSELF depends upon GPLed software and will not work without it. >Your statement is comparable to the tabloid headline: > > "NASA cause of DEATH by launching SHUTTLE!" Not so. I did add caps for emphasis, but the statement is objectively true. >If you can't communicate any other way then please go away. I'm >sure OpenBSD with their more strict attitude to GPL will find your >"uncompromising" zealotism welcome. Actually, OpenBSD is dependent upon GPLed code as well, though less so. As for what you call "uncompromising zealotism," it is exhibited not by me but by the FSF and RMS. They are, alas, the Taliban of the software world. Were I uncompromising, I would not be using FreeBSD now due to GPL contamination. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 7:26: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB24037B41A; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.49] helo=scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ESkU-0002n2-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:05:54 -0800 Received: from pool0032.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.32] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ESip-0002Jo-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:04:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3C187D1F.24D8E4D2@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:04:15 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hiten Pandya Cc: grog@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hiten Pandya wrote: > > hi, > > (to -Terry) > however, as you were saying that you would a JFS > compatible code from scratch then porting their > code to FreeBSD, if given the permission, would you > do it... practically, it takes up a lot of effort to > write the JFS code, I would say if you go and read the > JFS code, and start out with the binary trees, you > will know that we will not be able to write JFS compatible > code by our gold release (5.0), and this and other > filesystems would be a major change not a minor one. Hi; I wrote my first UNIX FS code in 1985, 16 years ago. I don't think it is as hard as you seem to think it is, particularly since someone has already done all the hard work of laying out working on disk structures for you, and you could have someone create FS images for you to test with, all without looking a a line of code that would render you "contaminated". > It is better to port JFS then re-inventing the wheel, > and we will get a lot of help from outsiders. Go ahead and do the port. > As there has been discussion about this at freebsd-fs > mailing list also. The reason i started this > discuss if starting out this project would be good > or not - from a technical point of view, and not from > a political point of view about IBM. Forgive me for > my bluntness but no offense. Forgive me for my bluntness, but: if you want to do the port, then do the port. In my opinion, it's likely that it will be distributed with the first release of FreeBSD that comes out after your port. Just don't expect FreeBSD to be able to install using it as the base FS type, when installed from CDROM, and so don't expect that a huge number of people will use it. That's just my opinion. Don't let my having it stop you from writing the code. If your goal is to have a generally deployed JFS capability, then I think a port of the GPL'ed JFS code is a waste of effort, for the reasons I have already outlined. If your goal is to just have some fun, and learn a little bit about kernel programming and file systems, then it will be time well spent. It will certianly help any future career you have as a programmer to be able to put it on your resume. > As i have also said, porting a thing massive as JFS > would be hard for me alone, and i need help from > fellow FreeBSD developers. I think you can find your volunteers, but they are going to be more junior level people, like yourself, or people who want to build their resume in the FS area. The general philosophy of FreeBSD is that the code should be usable by anyone, for any reason they see fit to use it, so the JFS code will always be a side project, because of the license. All of this was discussed to death before in FreeBSD-FS. If you want to do it, then stop talking about it and start doing it; what volunteers are possible will show up on your doorstep. I suggest using one of the following to get started: http://sourceforge.net/ http://www.collab.net/ -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 7:30:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A5137B41A for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29852; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:30:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213082900.01b912d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:30:24 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Replacement for SQUID (Was: A whole list of stacked topics) Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> References: <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <3C17482C.3792DAA9@mindspring.com> <20011213115519.F3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C18472F.DD3A90D5@mindspring.com> <20011213165513.D3448@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:02 AM 12/13/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >When IBM acquired Whistle, they DEMANDED that we remove SQUID, which >was planned to be in the next release of the software for the next >generation product, as it infringed 5 IBM patents, and they did not >want to grant license to use those patents, royalty free, by shipping >a product with SQUID on it. With what did IBM replace it? I'm looking for good caching software that's not GPLed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 8:44:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web21108.mail.yahoo.com (web21108.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7942737B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:44:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011213164444.4572.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.4.34.175] by web21108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:44:44 PST Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:44:44 -0800 (PST) From: Hiten Pandya Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD [VOTE] To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, tlambert2@mindspring.com In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213074611.01b923a0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, (from the person who started the JFS for FreeBSD) please, lets not get into this, what do you propose we should do (the porters), one way or the other, we are going to use GPL code.. which one shall it be? JFS or XFS If you think that none, than please put a -1 in the next message you send to this thread. Otherwise put +1 if you agree on any of the above FS. OR, If you think a project called FFS2 should be started which would add journalling and logging capabilities to the existing FFS file system, than please submit you next message with a +2 in this thread. The reason for doing this is voting kinda thing is to end this quaralling (my bluntness again.), forever and know what developers are thinking. After all, I am just asking for the views of the public. Thank You, =Hiten = ===== -Hiten, Thank You, Yours Sincerely, Hiten Pandya, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 10:11:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.sourcecode.co.za (ns1.riverbend.co.za [216.5.0.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C7137B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:11:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta.excite.com ([63.62.208.100] RDNS failed) by mail.sourcecode.co.za with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:09:30 +0200 Message-ID: <000065856bde$00003657$00003653@mta.excite.com> To: From: 888salescom@excite.com Subject: Marketing is the LifeBlood of Your Business! OEKCZUFB Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:09:24 -1800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: 888Salescom8@excite.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Dec 2001 18:09:32.0046 (UTC) FILETIME=[5051DAE0:01C18401] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org American Mailing



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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 10:49:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43AB937B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0215.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.215] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EavY-0006OU-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:49:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3C18F855.2E22238E@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:49:57 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Replacement for SQUID (Was: A whole list of stacked topics) References: <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <3C17482C.3792DAA9@mindspring.com> <20011213115519.F3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C18472F.DD3A90D5@mindspring.com> <20011213165513.D3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011213082900.01b912d0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 02:02 AM 12/13/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >When IBM acquired Whistle, they DEMANDED that we remove SQUID, which > >was planned to be in the next release of the software for the next > >generation product, as it infringed 5 IBM patents, and they did not > >want to grant license to use those patents, royalty free, by shipping > >a product with SQUID on it. > > With what did IBM replace it? I'm looking for good caching software > that's not GPLed. We (Bryan Mann) replaced it with the Apache proxy server. The intent was not redominantly caching, but enforcement of proxy authentication as a means of user identification for the purposes of implementing a web site blocking feature. We lost some caching functionality, in making this change. SQUID is good code, it just infringes a number of patents. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 11:18:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enigma.trueimpact.net (enigma.trueimpact.net [209.82.45.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B31937B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from spirit.jaded.net (unknown [209.82.45.200]) by enigma.trueimpact.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9544866B0D for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBDJIx202225 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:18:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:18:59 -0500 From: Dan Moschuk To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: CVS organization ideas? Message-ID: <20011213141859.A1665@spirit.jaded.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings all, I have been putting off reorganizing the CVS tree here at the dayjob because I cannot seem to decide on a decent way to do it. I'm hoping that people here will have some ideas. Currently, there are "projects" and "programs". A program is an individual module that does a certain task. Projects are a collection of programs, scripts and documentation. The build process for this is a royal PITA, as it involves checking out all the programs you need and building them separately. No tags or branches are being used at all here. The way I'm leaning towards is to make the project directory contain only documentation, scripts, and a Big Global Project Makefile. In CVS, I will use the modules file to include (using the '&' character) all the programs that this project uses. The Big Global Project Makefile will then build everything. This should work fine, however there are a couple of caveats that toss a monkey wrench into the works. I would like to tag and branch at the project level, and some programs are shared between multiple projects. These shared (or standalone) programs have their own build process as well, and I'd like to keep it that independent of the Big Global Project Makefile. I'd also like standalone/shared modules to have their own tags and branches, so as not to have projects tag/branches pollute that. The other way is to make the root directories in the tree only standalone/shared programs and projects. Project specific programs will go under that project's directory instead of the root. The CVSROOT/modules file will still include the shared stuff upon checkout as to be included in the build process. The kicker is I'm not sure on the best way of making sure that different versions of projects get the right versions of shared programs without tagging the module with the same tag as the project gets. Bleh, does anyone have any ideas on this whole mess? Or even a better way to organize it? :) Cheers, -Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 11:28:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068AD37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23498 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2001 19:28:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Dec 2001 19:28:04 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000001c183e3$e30bf0f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:27:59 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Troll Humor Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> This is not hyperbole; I could reflect your >> entire "counterargument" back to you based on >> your statements about UNIX. > > No need. Everything I've said is already archived online. Translation: "Crap, I can't think of anything." >> This is not true. > > It is completely true. There is nothing unique about Windows, except that > it is currently the market leader on the desktop. Translation: "Is too! I believe it so it must be true!" >> Please back up these claims. > > No need. We are all familiar with UNIX here, and its security flaws have > already been examined and explained in exhaustive detail by persons more > expert than myself. Translation: "Crap, I can't think of anything again." >> Blantant inability to run the most popular viruses? > > The most popular viruses will always be the viruses that attack the most > popular software. Therefore, if UNIX were the leader on the desktop, the > most popular viruses would be UNIX viruses. Translation: "The fact that Windows is designed with usability in mind rather than security has nothing to do with the fact that it is less secure and more easily attacked. It's all those vicious Windows haters out there that write viruses." >> It was very tempting, a few months back, to >> write code that would use one of the known >> IIS exploits to install FreeBSD, Apache, >> Front Page Extensions, and ASP services (under >> Linux emulation) on any IIS server which had >> not been patched ... > > Really? Tempting to whom? > > I've never felt any temptation to vandalize computer systems or commit other > crimes. Translation: "I'm going to ignore the point of obvious lack of security and resort to attacking the morals of a person who made a moral decision to not commit an immoral act." -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 11:58:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0F237B417 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E753BC273; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27581; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:58:43 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBDJvjm33769; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C187D1F.24D8E4D2@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Dec 2001 11:57:44 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C187D1F.24D8E4D2@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > someone create FS images for you to test with, all without > looking at a line of code that would render you "contaminated". I wonder about that after having seen it said several times. I'm quite sure (without explict evidence) that if this was taken to court that an accused infringer would be determined to be contaminated by any open source code, upon the presumption that he had looked at the code, there being no practical means to discover the truth and the ease of hiding it. It might sound like a violation of the "presumption of innocence" theory, but I think it goes on in civil law all the time, which aims more at maximizing justice, rather than minimizing injustice. Can anyone reference any actual law on "contamination" by code which is just available to the infringer, rather than being known to be in his hands? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 12:15:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A8737B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([65.8.240.251]) by femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011213201513.WFUI4954.femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:15:13 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213150733.01572328@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:15:10 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 PM 12/12/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > There's nothing like sitting down at > > another UNIX user's personal computer and trying to get accustomed to his > > personalized mouse button mapping, follow-the-pointer window focusing, or > > even directory structure. > >Maximize the xterm window, invoke screen, and forget about it. All >done. This just sounds like an attempt at avoiding the issue to me. I don't know how this helps when I need to run X-based software and manipulate its windows. > > There's a reason why no car company tries to alter the arrangement > > of the clutch, gas, and brake pedals, for instance. > >Because the industry is over twice as old as ours, and long ago >settled on a standard. I believe that cars have been manufactured >during my lifetime that deviated from that standard, and I know >slightly less important things meet that criteria. Some of them are >even critical controls if you live in the right place. And they vary >even if you stay with one manufacturer. For instance, have you ever >driven a car with a hydromatic transmission? > >I have no idea what the UI for an F1 car is, but I wouldn't be >surprised if it doesn't follow that arrangement. Even so, I think that Formula 1 drivers represent a small minority of all drivers. When someone says "I can drive," we don't usually assume that he's a professional racer or that he's driving large trucks. Unless the context is different, they're probably equipped to drive most passenger cars in their locale. Similarly, most people with computer experience these days are familiar with the basics of windowing environments--changing the windows focus, resizing and moving windows, etc. That's what I meant by "relevant skills." Those people who are familiar with a modern computer in some way, not those people who have to concentrate to move the pointer. > > Yeah, the other operating > > systems have got all that too *if* you're willing to learn to use it. > >Um - could you tell me how to get a paned window manager running on >any MS-Windows operating system? They're over 50% faster than framed >window managers for typical wm applications. I don't know what paned vs. framed refers to, but give me a hint and I'll see if I can quickly find a Windows-based equivalent. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 12:26:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 888CC37B417 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 79308 invoked by uid 100); 13 Dec 2001 20:26:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15385.3810.321519.670080@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:26:10 -0600 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213150733.01572328@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com> <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org> <20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011213150733.01572328@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information types: > At 11:26 PM 12/12/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > There's nothing like sitting down at > > > another UNIX user's personal computer and trying to get accustomed to his > > > personalized mouse button mapping, follow-the-pointer window focusing, or > > > even directory structure. > >Maximize the xterm window, invoke screen, and forget about it. All > >done. > This just sounds like an attempt at avoiding the issue to me. I don't know > how this helps when I need to run X-based software and manipulate its windows. Ah, you're changing the problem slightly. Yes, you're right. But this is like editors. You exit their X environment, and start one running a "standard" environment that every X system has - like twm. > > > Yeah, the other operating > > > systems have got all that too *if* you're willing to learn to use it. > >Um - could you tell me how to get a paned window manager running on > >any MS-Windows operating system? They're over 50% faster than framed > >window managers for typical wm applications. > I don't know what paned vs. framed refers to, but give me a hint and I'll > see if I can quickly find a Windows-based equivalent. Rather than controlling windows by wrapping frames around them that the user manipulates with a mouse to change the size and location, the screen is divided up into "panes", much like the panes one finds in picture windows on older houses. When an application opens a window, it goes into the current pane. A window put in a pane gets resized to the largest size for it that fits inside the pane - there's no way for the user to change that. The minimal capabilities the wm provides are the ability to move between panes, preferably keyboard-driven; the ability to move a window to the current pane; and the ability to circulate the windows open in the current pane. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 12:54:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B84D437B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA05774 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:53:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:53:36 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Boston Globe Article (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Boston Globe / December 13, 2001 At the core of Apple's OS X By Hiawatha Bray, Globe Columnist, 12/13/2001 You expect a few surprises on a visit to the headquarters of Apple Computer Inc. But Jordan Hubbard? What's he doing here? The same thing he's been doing for the past decade: trying to take over the world. Or at least the part that uses desktop computers. Hubbard is one of the leaders of the open-source software movement, along with guys like the legendary Linus Torvalds, cocreator of Linux. Their goal is to supplant traditional software with powerful programs that come with raw computer code and programming tools, so skilled users can modify the software themselves. Hubbard was one of the founders of the FreeBSD project. Like Linux, FreeBSD is an open-source version of the industrial-strength Unix operating system. Serious computer engineers generally think that FreeBSD did a better job of it than Linux. Indeed, a number of major commercial Web sites, including Yahoo, use FreeBSD on their computers. Meanwhile, there's Apple, with its closed, secretive software design and its relatively toylike point-and-click interface. No self-respecting open-source geek would touch these products with a barge pole. So seeing Hubbard with an Apple employee ID clipped to his jeans was something of a shock, like seeing Ken Starr in a Victoria's Secret commercial. Apple must have offered millions to get him, right? Wrong. ''I wanted to come here,'' Hubbard says. ''I asked them.'' Indeed, he practically had to beg for the job, slogging his way through three months of interviews. But slog he did, all so that he could have a hand in developing the newest version of Apple's operating system, OS X. As we noted last week, OS X is basically a version of Unix, gussied up with an elegant and powerful user interface. That counts for a lot, as any Unix or Linux user knows. Even the best Linux desktop designs, such as KDE or Gnome, are crude by Mac standards. But Apple was the first to market a personal computer that let the user control everything merely by dragging icons around on a screen. The older versions of the Mac OS were just as closed and proprietary as Windows. All the code was locked in a black box. Apple would give programmers ''hooks'' that let them execute various operating system functions, but they couldn't really get at the raw code itself. That changed with OS X. Apple built the core of the new operating system from bits and pieces of various Unix versions, including FreeBSD. This set of core functions, known as Darwin, was then freely published by Apple. To be sure, a lot of Mac functionality is still closed, especially its elite user-interface code. But the most basic elements of the operating system are as accessible as Linux or FreeBSD. Think of what that means. For all the massive pro-Linux hype of recent years, it's mostly used to run Web servers and low-cost supercomputers. Hardly anyone puts it on a desktop. Suddenly, there's a mostly open-source Linux-line operating system with a superb user interface, with a target market of 25 million faithful Macintosh users. After seeing a preview of OS X last year, Hubbard felt like an early Christian after the conversion of Emperor Constantine. ''I said, hallelujah!'' he recalls. ''This is what I've been waiting for the past 20 years ... I never thought about working for Apple before, and now I was saying, `How do I join?''' Apple needs converts like Hubbard to help the company bust out of its niche markets and resume a role in the mainstream of computing. Hubbard and his colleagues in Apple's software development department are pitching OS X as a better Linux, one that bridges the distance between the crude software of the open-source world and the glossy, top-quality stuff that Mac users have long taken for granted. Want to do graphic design in Linux? There's the open-source product GIMP, but the graphics industry is standardized around Adobe Photoshop. By next year, there will be an OS X version of Photoshop; there probably never will be one for Linux. You'll never see a Linux version of Microsoft Office; the OS X version is available at CompUSA. Meanwhile, Linux buffs will be able to modify their favorite programs to run on Mac OS X. And they can write new ones. OS X comes with an extra CD that most consumers will toss aside as useless. Not so the gearheads. The disk is full of programming tools to help them write their own OS X applications. Only a tiny handful of customers will ever do so, but it only takes a few to produce a new hit product. Remember that the original Mac caught on only after an outside company developed the first desktop publishing program to run on it. The OS X team is trying to cultivate the next great killer application. Indeed, Richard Kerris, an Apple software development executive, calls their programming tool kit ''our little secret weapon.'' Hubbard says the ability to write code that could run on 25 million Macs will appeal to the egos of open-source coders. ''We love to see our name up in lights,'' he says. But some open-sourcers are openly scornful, including Eric Raymond, the guy who coined the term ''open source'' in the first place. Raymond, president of the Open Source Intiative, says that too much of Apple's core technology remains shrouded in secrecy. ''OK, OS X is nice, it's a step in the right direction, but why should I put a lot of effort there, when I'm already working with a fully open system?'' he says. ''I don't care about that closed-source crap.'' Hubbard responds with a laugh and a jab at fellow gun-buff Raymond: ''The only thing Eric and I agree on is that the .45 caliber is a fine choice of weapon.'' Hubbard insists that the Mac will get open-source software to consumers' desktops faster than all the open-source software projects ever dreamed up over a six-pack of Jolt Cola. When he worked on FreeBSD, Hubbard knew his work would be appreciated only by a handful of fellow geeks. ''In the Apple space,'' he says, ''I can do things I can explain to my mother.'' Which, come to think of it, is a good principle for would-be world conquerors: Keep it simple. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 12:58:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C99E37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:58:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F54BC26B; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11762; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:58:14 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBDKvFX33775; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:57:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Dec 2001 12:57:14 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 53 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > 5) Use an alternate boot partition of a different FS type > (e.g. FAT32 or FFS), and load the JFS module from there. > o This is harder than option #3, since it requires > minimally that union mounts work, since mounts > over mount points before the kernel is booted > can't work, and therefore for your / to be JFS, > it will have to be mounted over top of the boot /, > which would be non-JFS. Maybe the JFS4FBSD developer could replace the boot loader with one which works rather like LILO and gets the kernel, the JFS module, and whatever else it needs from a pre-prepared non-FS image which the loader can read without FS support. Even harder to argue that this is mere common storage and not a linked program. > This is legally risky, if Greg is right, and the > intent was to prevent commercial use of the code, > since you defeat their intent. This mantra isn't quite correct (though the first clause is). IBM doesn't use use the GPL to prevent commercial use of the code because the GPL can't do that. (They might use it to discourage such use; successfully, no doubt.) But others can write JFS improvements and use it commercially. They just can't do it if they keep their own code closed. The intent here is to discourage people from writing closed code and I'm not sure courts would determine that to be a valid implied contract term. One could argue that the intent is simply to stop people from using the GPLed code with closed code, but the GPL doesn't do that. There are explicitly GPL-authorized ways to use the JFS code with closed code (eg, a closed application library). No, discussion of intent doesn't get one very far; one must return to the words of the GPL to descover which uses are licensed. (Can a JFS be considered an application or must it be part of the OS? Big database applications used to come with their own FSs.) The GPL is used to prevent any use of the code in certain ways with closed-source code. Programs that talk via TCP, RPC or CORBA are OK to distribute without contamination worries. What MUST be worried about is contained in the words of the license and the understandings of the parties to the license contract. The GPL is quite explicit in what it covers. I doubt that a fair court would suffer much talk of intent to prevent boot-time linking or whatever. Of course, it depends on who's lawyer the court most admires too. A final argument I need to think more about is this: If the GPL doesn't explicitly license the boot- or run-time linking of a JFS module, then there is no meeting of the minds and thus the use is not licensed. Hmm. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 13: 4: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA37D37B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (cheech.uchaswv.edu [172.16.0.7]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA17035 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:05:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200112132105.QAA17035@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: "Freebsd-chat" Subject: Re: whats this?! Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:11:26 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org type 'cd //' and then do a pwd. what causes this? found it by accident -- Nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 13: 6:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from square.cnd.mcgill.ca (square.CND.McGill.CA [132.206.114.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7FA37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mat@localhost) by square.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA28623; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:06:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mat) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:06:36 -0500 From: Mathew Kanner To: Nathan Mace Cc: Freebsd-chat Subject: Re: whats this?! Message-ID: <20011213160636.A28155@cnd.mcgill.ca> References: <200112132105.QAA17035@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: Nathan Mace's message [Re: whats this?!] as of Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 04:11:26PM -0500 Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Dec 13, Nathan Mace wrote: > type 'cd //' and then do a pwd. > > what causes this? found it by accident Your shell is fooling you. Try /bin/pwd --Mat -- Brain: Are you pondering what I'm pondering? Pinky: I think so, Brain, but me and Pippi Longstocking... I mean, what would the children look like? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 13:41:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.slackwit.com (static37.dsl.compuage.net [63.151.205.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E3B37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by www.slackwit.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4FE1418CB2; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:41:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:41:09 -0500 From: Kelly Hendrix To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Mike Meyer Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011213164109.A16491@www.slackwit.com> Reply-To: Kelly Hendrix References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 08:08:39AM +0100 X-Freebsd-Version: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 08:08:39AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mike writes: > > > I do. And I've seen people do that with Unix > > as well. Since it only takes one example to > > disprove such an assertion, your original > > assertion about Unix require an expert to > > set it up and maintain it is false. > > I find that sufficiently implausible that I'd have to see it to believe it. > FreeBSD, in particular, cannot be installed by persons with no knowledge of > IT. Even installation of NT/2000 server requires that much. In late 1997, I ordered FreeBSD 2.2.5 and Greg Lehey's book from Walnut Creek. I repartioned my computer's hard drive, and installed FreeBSD on my machine and managed to get both X-windows and ppp working, having never worked on a Unix system in my life. I'd bought my PC in March of '96, and the only experience I'd had with OS's up to that point was Windows 95. (Well, I did have a Commodore 64 years before) I'm proof that you don't need IT experience to get a Unix system up and running. Kelly -- ______________________________________________________________________ | There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a | | miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. | | | | Albert Einstein (1879-1955) | |______________________________________________________________________| To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 13:52:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE5037B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBDLq2400539; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:52:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Kelly Hendrix" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" , "Mike Meyer" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213164109.A16491@www.slackwit.com> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:52:01 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kelly writes: > I'd bought my PC in March of '96, and the only > experience I'd had with OS's up to that point was > Windows 95. (Well, I did have a Commodore 64 > years before) I'm proof that you don't need IT > experience to get a Unix system up and running. On the contrary, you only prove that people _with_ IT experience can get a UNIX system up and running. Many people using computers today weren't even born when the Commodore 64 was popular, and most of the rest were just kids, so it's safe to say that they have far less experience than you do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 13:52:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B915437B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16EdmV-0007ET-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:52:43 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:52:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Annelise Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Annelise Anderson wrote: > Boston Globe / December 13, 2001 > At the core of Apple's OS X > > By Hiawatha Bray, Globe Columnist, 12/13/2001 I am surprised that a published author would post a substantial portion of someone else's work at a public forum. (Maybe the Boston Globe is "open content"?) Anyways, that is a well-written article and quite interesting, although it seems to lack in saying that Mac OS X is not completely open source (due to conflicting statements). Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 14:13:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3DE37B417 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA06062; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:04:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:04:19 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fair use on a matter of interest I don't do flame wars On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > Boston Globe / December 13, 2001 > > At the core of Apple's OS X > > > > By Hiawatha Bray, Globe Columnist, 12/13/2001 > > > > I am surprised that a published author would post a substantial portion of > someone else's work at a public forum. (Maybe the Boston Globe is "open > content"?) > > Anyways, that is a well-written article and quite interesting, although it > seems to lack in saying that Mac OS X is not completely open source (due > to conflicting statements). > > Jeremy C. Reed > http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ > > > -- Annelise Anderson Author of: FreeBSD: An Open-Source Operating System for Your PC Available from: BSDmall.com and amazon.com Book Website: http://www.bittreepress.com/FreeBSD/introbook/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 14:15:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.slackwit.com (static37.dsl.compuage.net [63.151.205.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358EA37B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:15:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by www.slackwit.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EDFDC18CB3; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:15:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:15:13 -0500 From: Kelly Hendrix To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Kelly Hendrix , FreeBSD Chat , Mike Meyer Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011213171513.B16491@www.slackwit.com> Reply-To: Kelly Hendrix References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213164109.A16491@www.slackwit.com> <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:52:01PM +0100 X-Freebsd-Version: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:52:01PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Kelly writes: > > > I'd bought my PC in March of '96, and the only > > experience I'd had with OS's up to that point was > > Windows 95. (Well, I did have a Commodore 64 > > years before) I'm proof that you don't need IT > > experience to get a Unix system up and running. > > On the contrary, you only prove that people _with_ IT experience can get a > UNIX system up and running. Many people using computers today weren't even > born when the Commodore 64 was popular, and most of the rest were just kids, > so it's safe to say that they have far less experience than you do. How do you figure? At the time, my Commodore 64 was nothing more that a glorified gaming machine. I didn't have a printer, wasn't connected to the net, in fact the only programs I ever bought for the machine were games. I had a Nintendo at some point in my life too, does that qualify me as IT? God, I never knew I had such an extensive resume. Hey Terry, Greg, got an address for IBM? Looks like I'm "qualified". Kelly -- ______________________________________________________________________ | There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a | | miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. | | | | Albert Einstein (1879-1955) | |______________________________________________________________________| To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 14:48:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B805C37B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0211.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.211] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EeeY-0005KM-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:48:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3C193048.4FBDB302@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:48:40 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C187D1F.24D8E4D2@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Can anyone reference any actual law on "contamination" by code which > is just available to the infringer, rather than being known to be in his > hands? The closest example is the "deep reverse engineering" claim in the Microsoft vs. Stack Technologies lawsuit, where someone at Stack figured out that Windows looked for a specifically named ".BIN" file for the FS compression driver, and loaded it before everything else. It's interesting in this context, since clean room coding is still legal, and this was the only way they had to attack it: they could not successfully claim contamination through availability. In the Open Source sector, RMS made a claim against the crypto library based on (in effect) "interface copyright", making the infringing code "code built to use this interface unique to GPL'ed code, and therefore a derivative work of the GPL'ed code". The claim was withdrawn, after they wrote their own consumer of the interface to the crypto library (effectively, writing the other half of the equation themselves), making the interface exist in more than GPL'ed code, making the argument RMS put forth impossible to substantiate. I think both these cases argue against the idea that you could successfully prosecute on the basis of a publically available reference implementation existing -- one might make the same argument for "Lesstif" vs. Motif, and it's well documented (in their mailing list archives) that the Lesstif people used Motif header files and namelists from the Motif libraries to do their engineering. Now it's entirely possible for there to be nuisance lawsuits, which might even win based on a preponderance of evidence, which is manufactured through a preponderance of money. But it is unlikely in the extreme, I think, in this case, given the bad publicity of supposedly making code public as a reference implementation, and then crying foul when someone actually uses it as a reference implementation. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 14:49:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EFDD37B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBDMn8400635; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:49:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003401c18428$60ca1820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Kelly Hendrix" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" , "Mike Meyer" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213164109.A16491@www.slackwit.com> <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213171513.B16491@www.slackwit.com> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:49:07 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kelly writes: > How do you figure? Just having any computer at all in those days set you apart from the crowd. Computers as a common household item are a very recent phenomenon. It's rather like people who buy sports cars: They may not be expert mechanics, but overall, they tend to know significantly more about cars than the average person. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 14:51:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37AE537B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28000 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2001 22:51:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Dec 2001 22:51:25 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <003401c18428$60ca1820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:51:20 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Mike Meyer , Cc: Mike Meyer , FreeBSD Chat , Kelly Hendrix Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Kelly writes: > >> How do you figure? > > Just having any computer at all in those days set you apart from the crowd. > Computers as a common household item are a very recent phenomenon. > > It's rather like people who buy sports cars: They may not be expert > mechanics, but overall, they tend to know significantly more about cars than > the average person. So every little Johnny that had a Nintendo as a kid is now qualfied IT professional? Wow. Then again, that might explain some of the IT people I've met. :-P -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15: 1:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B1137B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0211.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.211] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EerJ-00014S-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:01:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3C19335F.AAEB53D4@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:01:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Annelise Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Annelise Anderson wrote: > > Boston Globe / December 13, 2001 > At the core of Apple's OS X > > By Hiawatha Bray, Globe Columnist, 12/13/2001 Do you know how to contact this reporter to give them a correction? [ ... ] > Hubbard says the ability to write code that could run on 25 million Macs > will appeal to the egos of open-source coders. ''We love to see our name > up in lights,'' he says. But some open-sourcers are openly scornful, > including Eric Raymond, the guy who coined the term ''open source'' in > the first place. The term "Open Source" was coined by Christine L. Peterson, President of the Foresight Institute and not by Eric Raymond. http://www.foresight.org/FI/Peterson.html http://www.opensource.org/docs/history.html Thanks, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15: 5:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C6B37B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBDN5GF03761 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:05:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:05:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Annelise Anderson wrote: > Boston Globe / December 13, 2001 > At the core of Apple's OS X > > By Hiawatha Bray, Globe Columnist, 12/13/2001 > > You expect a few surprises on a visit to the headquarters of Apple > Computer Inc. But Jordan Hubbard? What's he doing here? > > The same thing he's been doing for the past decade: trying to take over > the world. Or at least the part that uses desktop computers. This is funny. Correct me if I am wrong, but Jordan has always championed FreeBSD as a server OS. He has consistently taken the tack that If someone wants a FreeBSD "desktop" (whatever that means) then they can hack at it. I also seem to recall an interview where Jordan decried world domination mindsets of the early unix vendors and the "green before red" in the kilts comments of open source movements. I think the Globe starts the article portraying him in way that is inconsistent with what I have seen from Jordan. And Jordan, if you read this, Get Solidworks and Pro/Engineer (3D CAD systems) to run on Mac and I will buy one as my next computer! If Apple wants to break into the engineering market, Apple needs these apps. Vellum 3D doesn't cut it. Later, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:10: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185EF37B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBDN9x400679; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:09:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003f01c1842b$49c5e250$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "FreeBSD Chat" , "Kelly Hendrix" References: Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:09:58 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John writes: > So every little Johnny that had a Nintendo as > a kid is now qualfied IT professional? No, but people who had computers as kids (and are now adults) probably know more about IT than the average person. > Then again, that might explain some of the IT > people I've met. Many of them have scarcely any more experience than that. One job fair I went to had a booth with a sign that said "More than two years' experience only, please!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:11:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E4A37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0211.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.211] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ef0D-00065J-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:10:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3C193586.CBB53F41@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:11:02 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Kelly Hendrix , FreeBSD Chat , Mike Meyer Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213164109.A16491@www.slackwit.com> <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > On the contrary, you only prove that people _with_ IT experience can get a > UNIX system up and running. Many people using computers today weren't even > born when the Commodore 64 was popular, and most of the rest were just kids, > so it's safe to say that they have far less experience than you do. I will have to call my sister, who was President Bush Senior's Assistant Press Secretary's nanny. She will be incredibly thrilled that her Commodore 64 experience now means that she is an experienced IT professional. You will, of course, be willing to act as a reference on her updated resume... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:13: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB4337B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBDNCu400703; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:12:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <004d01c1842b$b321c700$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Kelly Hendrix" , "FreeBSD Chat" , "Mike Meyer" References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213164109.A16491@www.slackwit.com> <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C193586.CBB53F41@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:12:55 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > You will, of course, be willing to act as a > reference on her updated resume... Not necessary; her experience will speak for itself. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:14:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4220B37B41B for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0211.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.211] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ef3E-0002W8-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:14:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3C193641.21F7ED3@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:14:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > > > I am surprised that a published author would post a substantial portion of > someone else's work at a public forum. (Maybe the Boston Globe is "open > content"?) Look up USC 12, and pay special attention to the term "fair use" as it applies to copyright laws, and excerpts of publications, such as chapters in books and single articles in magazines and newspapers, in particular. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:15:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165BD37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 9573 invoked from network); 13 Dec 2001 23:15:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Dec 2001 23:15:40 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3C193586.CBB53F41@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:15:34 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: More Trull Humor Cc: Mike Meyer , Cc: Mike Meyer , FreeBSD Chat , Kelly Hendrix Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Dec-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> On the contrary, you only prove that people _with_ IT experience can get a >> UNIX system up and running. Many people using computers today weren't even >> born when the Commodore 64 was popular, and most of the rest were just kids, >> so it's safe to say that they have far less experience than you do. > > I will have to call my sister, who was President Bush Senior's > Assistant Press Secretary's nanny. > > She will be incredibly thrilled that her Commodore 64 experience > now means that she is an experienced IT professional. > > You will, of course, be willing to act as a reference on her > updated resume... > > -- Terry Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! This is almost deserving of a fortune entry. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:18: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2280437B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0211.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.211] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ef73-00005a-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:18:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3C19372E.98B89DF6@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:18:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kelly Hendrix Cc: Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat , Mike Meyer Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213164109.A16491@www.slackwit.com> <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213171513.B16491@www.slackwit.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kelly Hendrix wrote: > How do you figure? At the time, my Commodore 64 was nothing more that a > glorified gaming machine. I didn't have a printer, wasn't connected to > the net, in fact the only programs I ever bought for the machine were > games. I had a Nintendo at some point in my life too, does that qualify > me as IT? God, I never knew I had such an extensive resume. Hey Terry, > Greg, got an address for IBM? Looks like I'm "qualified". With *both* Commodore 64 *and* Nintendo experience (are you sure you are not padding your resume?!?), I am certain you are qualified for a job at Almaden Labs; perhaps even a fellowship. PS: Be sure to list Anthony as a personal reference when applying. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:21:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D0E37B41D for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:21:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA06DC227; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:21:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19734; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:21:52 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBDNKrV33864; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:20:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Annelise Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Dec 2001 15:20:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6eg06ebtbe.06e@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Annelise Anderson writes: > Fair use on a matter of interest > > I don't do flame wars You don't do fair, either. That wasn't fair use by any useful definition. One web site just got into big trouble for allowing people to post other people's articles, and THEY had some good arguments about free speech, etc., because the posters were adding commentary. (Free Republic, IIRC.) Remember that it may impact others, if not you. Next time, use a link, please, or send it to daemonnews.org where people who are interested in OS-X/BSD expect to find such articles. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:25:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A783237B416; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 397EA3EC0; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C5ACBAA5; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:26:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:26:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: John Baldwin Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Mike Meyer , FreeBSD Chat , Kelly Hendrix Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011213180248.W61384-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, John Baldwin wrote: [How did this message end up with two Cc headers?] >> It's rather like people who buy sports cars: They may not be expert >> mechanics, but overall, they tend to know significantly more about cars than >> the average person. Actually it's rather like most people who buy sporty cars[0]. They go to the Ford dealership (CompUSA) thinking they need to get a car (Computer), and the salesman talks up the status and performance they'll get with a Mustang (latest 9Ghz P4) and they buy it. Then they realize they can't drive so they put an automatic transmission (Windows) on it and ruin any chance in hell it had of performing decently. >So every little Johnny that had a Nintendo as a kid is now qualfied IT >professional? Wow. Then again, that might explain some of the IT people I've >met. :-P This seems to explain the MCSE acronym expanding to Must Call Someone Else/Experienced. [0] Sporty Cars meaning things like the Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, and similar ilk which are little more than overgrown family sedans which exhibit little if any of the efficiency, balance, agility, cornering, acceleration or beauty of a well engineered sports car.[1] [1] Since now I'll probably get some off-the-cuff response from a Mustang owner asking what the hell is it I drive I'll tell you that no, it's not a sports car. It's a classic 1974 Volkswagen Type I Sedan and daily it leaves American Steel in its dust. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:29:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37B737B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9765FC227; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21740; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:29:12 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBDNSDF33906; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:28:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Nathan Mace Cc: "Freebsd-chat" Subject: Re: whats this?! References: <200112132105.QAA17035@uce55.uchaswv.edu> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Dec 2001 15:28:13 -0800 In-Reply-To: <200112132105.QAA17035@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nathan Mace writes: > type 'cd //' and then do a pwd. > > what causes this? found it by accident I get "/" in pdksh, as expected. You might have found a feature of some proprietary shell. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 15:40:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC0E37B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0211.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.211] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EfSU-0002ss-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:40:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3C193C60.53E5E99D@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:40:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: <6eg06ebtbe.06e@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: [ ... ] Not to take you to task, but you don't know who you are criticising about the finer points of copyright law, do you? UNITED STATES CODE TITLE 17 - COPYRIGHTS CHAPTER 1 - SUBJECT MATTER AND SCOPE OF COPYRIGHT Sec. 107. Limitations on Exclusive Rights: Fair Use Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include - (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors. I count 4 of the 6 statutorily permitted uses in her original posting. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 16: 0: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4267037B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA06426; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:46:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:46:09 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: <6eg06ebtbe.06e@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Dec 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Annelise Anderson writes: > > > Fair use on a matter of interest > > > > I don't do flame wars > > You don't do fair, either. That wasn't fair use by any useful > definition. One web site just got into big trouble for allowing people > to post other people's articles, and THEY had some good arguments about > free speech, etc., because the posters were adding commentary. (Free > Republic, IIRC.) Remember that it may impact others, if not you. > > Next time, use a link, please, or send it to daemonnews.org where people > who are interested in OS-X/BSD expect to find such articles. > You're right, I should have just done a link. Annelise -- Annelise Anderson Author of: FreeBSD: An Open-Source Operating System for Your PC Available from: BSDmall.com and amazon.com Book Website: http://www.bittreepress.com/FreeBSD/introbook/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 16: 6:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E154737B419; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17956; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:06:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:06:27 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: John Baldwin , Anthony Atkielski , Mike Meyer , FreeBSD Chat , Kelly Hendrix Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <20011213180248.W61384-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, John Baldwin wrote: > > [How did this message end up with two Cc headers?] > > >> It's rather like people who buy sports cars: They may not be expert > >> mechanics, but overall, they tend to know significantly more about cars than > >> the average person. > > Actually it's rather like most people who buy sporty cars[0]. > They go to the Ford dealership (CompUSA) thinking they need to get > a car (Computer), and the salesman talks up the status and > performance they'll get with a Mustang (latest 9Ghz P4) and they > buy it. Then they realize they can't drive so they put an > automatic transmission (Windows) on it and ruin any chance in hell > it had of performing decently. Pffft. So people who put automatic transmissions in their sports cars (the cars you mention are actually muscle cars... well, not exactly) suddenly can't drive and the car isn't going to perform worth a damn? I'm the owner of a 2000 Pontiac Firebird Trans-Am WS6 -- with an automatic transmission, and that was my choice, not because I picked it off the lot that way. I walked into the dealership knowing exactly what I wanted and had the car built my way, no salesmanship involved. I think you'd be very surprised at how many cars on the drag strip use automatic transmissions. Unless you are a VERY good driver, an automatic transmission gives you greater consistency than a manual, and consistency is extremely important in bracket racing. You'll generally also get a better start off the line with an automatic. While there are some days I wish I had the six-speed manual, just for the pure fun of it, most of the time I don't regret getting the four-speed auto at all. I've toasted every car I've met on the street in the two years I've had it (I'll meet someone tomorrow and regret saying that, probably), and I haven't even modified the car yet. Oh, it corners pretty damn well, too. > [1] Since now I'll probably get some off-the-cuff response from a > Mustang owner asking what the hell is it I drive I'll tell you ^^^^^^^ Trans-Am > that no, it's not a sports car. It's a classic 1974 Volkswagen > Type I Sedan and daily it leaves American Steel in its dust. Care to race? It's likely that you'll get a brief glimpse at my license plate which reads GO-UNIX before it becomes too small to read. Straight or windy roads, doesn't matter to me. :-) Oh, I only have a license plate in the back of the car, not the front, just in case you were thinking of a witty comeback on that one (in which case it would have read XINU-OG anyway). :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 16:15:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.slackwit.com (static37.dsl.compuage.net [63.151.205.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259EC37B417 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by www.slackwit.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 86E8618CB2; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:15:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:15:39 -0500 From: Kelly Hendrix To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Chat Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011213191539.C16491@www.slackwit.com> Reply-To: Kelly Hendrix References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213164109.A16491@www.slackwit.com> <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213171513.B16491@www.slackwit.com> <003401c18428$60ca1820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <003401c18428$60ca1820$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 11:49:07PM +0100 X-Freebsd-Version: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 11:49:07PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Kelly writes: > > > How do you figure? > > Just having any computer at all in those days set you apart from the crowd. > Computers as a common household item are a very recent phenomenon. > > It's rather like people who buy sports cars: They may not be expert > mechanics, but overall, they tend to know significantly more about cars than > the average person. To paraphrase Harry Hogge, a character played by Robert Duvall in "Days of Thunder", "The only thing more ignorant than a driver who don't know nothin' about cars is a driver who thinks he does." Of what significance is his knowledge if he can't fix his car when it breaks down? It'll cost him the same to get it fixed as it would someone who presumes no knowledge. That means what he knows amounts to squat. When I got my first PC in '96, even though I'd used that 64 all those years ago, it amounted to squat when I fired her up for the first time. My 8 year old daughter had to practically grab my hand and show me what to do with the mouse. I gained no practical experience with my first computer, nothing that would give me an edge over anyone who'd never used one before. Also, by the time I'd purchased my 64, there were several other computers on the market: Apple IIe, TRS-80, VIC 20, TI, Atari, and IBM. Now if I'd purchased an Apple or IBM, well, that'd been the stuff. But the 64 was considered by most to be just a glorified Atari 2600/5200. I was considered more of a gamer than a computer user, and in all reality, that's what I was. Kelly -- ______________________________________________________________________ | There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a | | miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. | | | | Albert Einstein (1879-1955) | |______________________________________________________________________| To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 16:16:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23B437B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16Eg1L-0007Lc-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:16:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:16:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3C193C60.53E5E99D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Not to take you to task, but you don't know who you are criticising > about the finer points of copyright law, do you? I know you addressed that statement to someone else. But I am missing the point. (I guess it means you are saying that you are an authority in copyright law.) Anyways, I am not a lawyer, but I did pass my "law of the press" class while earning my journalism bachelor's degree :) I have more comments below. > Sec. 107. Limitations on Exclusive Rights: Fair Use > > Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, > the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by > reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means > specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, > comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies > for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an > infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use > made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the > factors to be considered shall include - > > (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether > such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit > educational purposes; Okay -- nonprofit educational purposes. > (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; ? > (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in > relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and The entire article was copied. "The greater the amount of copyrighted work used, the less likely that a court will characterize the use as fair. The use of an entire copyright work is almost never fair." (The AP Stylebook and Libel Manual, 1992.) > (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or > value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is > unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use > if such finding is made upon consideration of all the > above factors. Possibly less people will read the original document. The readership will decline, the company will lose money, the paper cuts back writers, the original author loses further assignments, Boston goes into a economic recession, a new tax ... > I count 4 of the 6 statutorily permitted uses in her original posting. What four? Fair use is often hard to define. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 16:34: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E192C37B417 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix (dial-39.ocis.net [209.52.173.71]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01978 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:33:57 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:35:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3C18D8E2.12119.ECCACF8@localhost> In-reply-to: <003f01c1842b$49c5e250$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > John writes: > > So every little Johnny that had a Nintendo as > > a kid is now qualfied IT professional? > No, but people who had computers as kids (and are now adults) probably > know more about IT than the average person. There's a big difference between being able to use a computer and knowing how computers, networks, and other IT-related infrastructures work. There's also a big difference between being computer-literate person, and having IT-related skills. For instance, my Mom has been using computers since the age of mainframes, green screens, and Hercules monochrome adapters on 8086 boxes. However, when it comes to anything beyond turning the PC on, opening WordPerfect, and printing letters, she's completely clueless. According to your specs, she should be the head of a large IT department now, as she had and was using computers back before computers were a household item. Guess I should tell her she's in the wrong line of work. It takes a lot more than just having a computer or a gaming system to become an IT professional, or even just IT experienced. But, it doesn't take IT knowledge to install an operating system. All it takes is common sense and the ability to read and to think for yourself. It's just too bad those last three are in such short supply these days. :( I've had three computers in my life: an 8088 XT, a 486, and a Pentium laptop. I've also had a Nintendo and a GameBoy. With no other experience than game playing and essay writing on the computer, I have been able to install Windows 3.1, 95, 98, NT, and 2000, FreeBSD 2.2.8, 3.1, and 4.0-4.4, as well as OpenBSD 3.1. All it took was a little reading and some trial and error. It's not rocket science. And, yes, anyone can do it, IT experience or not. Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 16:47:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8449E37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F0EC2D3; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12917; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:47:31 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBE0kWf33953; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:46:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: <6eg06ebtbe.06e@localhost.localdomain> <3C193C60.53E5E99D@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Dec 2001 16:46:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C193C60.53E5E99D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <2e3d2ebpco.d2e@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 70 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Not to take you to task, but you don't know who you are criticising > about the finer points of copyright law, do you? I welcome your taking me to task on this subject close to my heart, if not my mind. (Software copyright law in particular, but one often stumbles across the fair use topic.) As for your question, I'm not sure. I know AA as a FreeBSD book author and frequent answerer of questions. Is she a copyright lawyer too? On to fair use: ... > the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by > reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means > specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, > comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies > for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an > infringement of copyright. Take out the inner clauses and you get a profound statement. :-) The other clauses depend on "such use", meaning "fair use". They don't describe fair use; just the contexts of some fair use. > In determining whether the use > made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the > factors to be considered shall include - > > (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether > such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit > educational purposes; > (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; > (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in > relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and > (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or > value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is > unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use > if such finding is made upon consideration of all the > above factors. > > I count 4 of the 6 statutorily permitted uses in her original posting. The four listed above, I presume. 1) OK by me. I supose a lawyer might be able to claim some commercial advantage of the ML and it's archives to Wind River and others. And it's debatable how much -chat is about education or about entertainment. 2) Nope. The nature of the original article is something to draw readers to the publisher's advertisers. What is more deserving of copyright protection? 3) Nope. Looked like a 100% clip to me. I don't think you can weigh it against the whole content of the publisher's web site, etc. 4) Nope. Appearance of the copy (especially as opposed to a link) cost the original publisher advertising revenue almost certainly (and potential is probably enough to consider here). So I count one, at most. I've forgotten the rest of the law, but doesn't a court have to find three? And they consider everything "judiciously", of course, putting their thumbs on the scale for educational institutions with one thumb and commercial copyright owners with the other. Finally, I don't think it was fair use no matter what the law considers to be fair use and I'm sure many authors and publishers would agree. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 16:49:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7347737B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBE0nG047035; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:49:16 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <00e801c18439$28664d80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: , References: <3C18D8E2.12119.ECCACF8@localhost> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:49:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie writes: > According to your specs, she should be the > head of a large IT department now, as she > had and was using computers back before > computers were a household item. Has she ever sought a position in management? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17: 0:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A2D37B417 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 50D83786E4; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:29:50 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:29:50 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: Hiten Pandya , Poul-Henning Kamp , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Message-ID: <20011214112950.N3448@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <3C17482C.3792DAA9@mindspring.com> <20011213115519.F3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C18472F.DD3A90D5@mindspring.com> <20011213165513.D3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 1:02:29 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> I know that things have changed since you were IBM. I still find it >> difficult to think that they have changed as much as would be >> necessary to explain the discrepancy between your viewpoint and my >> experience. > > I left IBM a year ago last September. > > When IBM acquired Whistle, they DEMANDED that we remove SQUID, which > was planned to be in the next release of the software for the next > generation product, as it infringed 5 IBM patents, and they did not > want to grant license to use those patents, royalty free, by shipping > a product with SQUID on it. For some definition of IBM. > I think perhaps some of the discrepancy is that you live in a > country which does not recognize software patents the way the > U.S. does. No, I work for the IBM Linux Technology Center. Our rules are formulated in the USA. >>> See also the IBM guidelines for the use of Open Source in IBM >>> products, >> >> Been there, done that. Your point? > > > > My point is that IBM is backing Linux and the GPL purely for > marketing reasons, not legal or technical reasons. Of course. Does that worry you? IBM is a commercial company. Nearly all its decisions are based on marketing input. >> I don't know the exact wording of the GPL, but I can't see any >> deviation here. Yes, the original code is proprietary. But we are >> most definitely talking an open source license, even if it's one you >> don't like. > > Big deal. It's not commercially useful, even interally to IBM, > for anything other than marketing blather. > > For the same reasons, a GPL'ed JFS port to FreeBSD would not be > commercially useful, except as IBM/Linux marketing blather. Why not? > As an overall business philosophy aside: frankly, I don't buy your > unified view of IBMs motivations; from my personal experience, > business units competed more than they cooperated, and IBM was > rarely unified on anything: it's not a single-minded entity. No company of that size can be completely unified. My understanding, though, is that IBM is trying to reduce competition between the business units, not maintain it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17: 1:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD6137B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52E8C2D2; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16533; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:01:39 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBE10e733959; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C187D1F.24D8E4D2@mindspring.com> <3C193048.4FBDB302@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Dec 2001 17:00:40 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C193048.4FBDB302@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > Can anyone reference any actual law on "contamination" by code which > > is just available to the infringer, rather than being known to be in his > > hands? ... > I think both these cases argue against the idea that you could > successfully prosecute on the basis of a publically available > reference implementation existing -- one might make the same > argument for "Lesstif" vs. Motif, and it's well documented (in > their mailing list archives) that the Lesstif people used Motif > header files and namelists from the Motif libraries to do their > engineering. Thanks for the info. I'll check into the Stack thing; I didn't understand the applicability, but it sounds interesting anyway. I'm afraid that if this issue is ever litigated, the courts will, as is their custom, lean heavily towards the rights of the copyright owner and be very broad in their consideration of what a derivative is. Seems they push it way further than they should in the book and movie fields. Fortunately, with much less money involved, they might do the Right Thing. > Now it's entirely possible for there to be nuisance lawsuits, > which might even win based on a preponderance of evidence, which > is manufactured through a preponderance of money. Funny. I might make some fair use of that one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17: 5:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789EC37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix (dial-39.ocis.net [209.52.173.71]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07758 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:05:03 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:06:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3C18E02D.13451.EE92724@localhost> In-reply-to: <00e801c18439$28664d80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Freddie writes: > > According to your specs, she should be the > > head of a large IT department now, as she > > had and was using computers back before > > computers were a household item. > Anthony wrote: > Has she ever sought a position in management? What does management have to do with anything? You were claiming that using a computer, or gaming system in the past was a valid replacement for IT skills and experience. OK, maybe my choice of words was off, perhaps "According to your specs, she should be the top tech in a large IT department..." would have been better?? Regardless, it takes more than exposure to computers, gaming consoles, and programmable calculators to become an IT professional. Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17: 8:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 29ACA37B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 82531 invoked by uid 100); 14 Dec 2001 01:08:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15385.20768.287488.363538@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:08:48 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, I probably shouldn't do this, and should let Jordan speak for himself, but ... Jason C. Wells types: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Annelise Anderson wrote: > This is funny. Correct me if I am wrong, but Jordan has always championed > FreeBSD as a server OS. He has consistently taken the tack that If > someone wants a FreeBSD "desktop" (whatever that means) then they can hack > at it. I dunno - when I first met Jordan, he was doing desktop Unix support at UC Berkeley. I think he may have grasped the reality that FreeBSD isn't going to displace Windows on the desktop, and therefore concentrated on making it the best servero OS possible. > I also seem to recall an interview where Jordan decried world domination > mindsets of the early unix vendors and the "green before red" in the kilts > comments of open source movements. The closest I can recall to that is his decrying what I called the "balkanization" of the Unix market, and doing things to avoid that with FreeBSD. If he carries that attitude into Apple so that they keep the underlying Unix standard so that commercial Unix tools build on it just like any other Unix variant, that would be great. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17:23:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3F237B41D for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:23:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (unknown [4.61.202.145]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F618471E6; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:23:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C1954A6.8264978A@pantherdragon.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:23:50 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nathan Mace Cc: Freebsd-chat Subject: Re: whats this?! References: <200112132105.QAA17035@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > Nathan Mace writes: > > > type 'cd //' and then do a pwd. > > > > what causes this? found it by accident > > I get "/" in pdksh, as expected. > > You might have found a feature of some proprietary shell. I wouldn't exactly call bash a proprietary shell: dmp@spark$ cd // dmp@spark$ pwd // dmp@spark$ echo $SHELL /bin/bash dmp@spark$ /bin/bash --version GNU bash, version 2.04.0(1)-release (i386--freebsd4.2) Copyright 1999 Free Software Foundation, Inc. dmp@spark$ uname -a FreeBSD spark.techno.pagans 4.2-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE #2: Tue Dec 4 20:56:41 PST 2001 root@spark.techno.pagans:/usr/src/sys/compile/SPARK i386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17:31: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE8337B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18457 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2001 01:31:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Dec 2001 01:31:00 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3C1954A6.8264978A@pantherdragon.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:30:55 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Darren Pilgrim Subject: Re: whats this?! Cc: Freebsd-chat , Nathan Mace Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Dec-01 Darren Pilgrim wrote: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: >> >> Nathan Mace writes: >> >> > type 'cd //' and then do a pwd. >> > >> > what causes this? found it by accident >> >> I get "/" in pdksh, as expected. >> >> You might have found a feature of some proprietary shell. > > I wouldn't exactly call bash a proprietary shell: But it certainly is a buggy shell. :) > dmp@spark$ cd // > dmp@spark$ pwd > // -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17:38:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2527A37B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08239; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:38:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213183621.023621f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:37:42 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Replacement for SQUID (Was: A whole list of stacked topics) Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <3C18F855.2E22238E@mindspring.com> References: <20011212105559.19177.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <3C17482C.3792DAA9@mindspring.com> <20011213115519.F3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C18472F.DD3A90D5@mindspring.com> <20011213165513.D3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011213082900.01b912d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:49 AM 12/13/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >SQUID is good code, it just infringes a number of patents. And is GPLed, which in my case is the primary motivation for seeking an alternative. I hope that the situation with SQUID is not the same as with GCC -- to wit, that it's driven out virtually all alternatives, including ethically licensed open source. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17:40:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7DD37B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBE1eYR01159; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 02:40:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010701c18440$532cc1a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: , References: <3C18E02D.13451.EE92724@localhost> Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 02:40:34 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie writes: > What does management have to do with anything? You said she should the the head of an IT department. That's a management position. I was asking if she has ever actually sought out that type of position. Perhaps she doesn't hold such a position because she has never looked for one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17:41:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A215137B417 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix (dial-39.ocis.net [209.52.173.71]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13232 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:41:32 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: Freebsd-chat Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:43:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: whats this?! Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3C18E8BA.24815.F0A8EDA@localhost> In-reply-to: References: <3C1954A6.8264978A@pantherdragon.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 14-Dec-01 Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > >> Nathan Mace writes: > >> > type 'cd //' and then do a pwd. > >> > what causes this? found it by accident > >> I get "/" in pdksh, as expected. > >> You might have found a feature of some proprietary shell. > > I wouldn't exactly call bash a proprietary shell: > But it certainly is a buggy shell. :) It's a Bash "feature". Anywhere that you can use / in a path, you can use multiple /'s. It only sees the first one and ignores everything up to the first non-/ character. I've run across this several times in the past, especially with autoconf- generated init.d scripts on Linux systems running Bash1 and Bash2. Even though it shows you multiple slashes, internally it treats them all as one. [shrug] go fig. Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17:50:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B4F37B41A for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 30457 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2001 01:50:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Dec 2001 01:50:54 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <010701c18440$532cc1a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:50:45 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, fcash@bigfoot.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Freddie writes: > >> What does management have to do with anything? > > You said she should the the head of an IT department. That's a management > position. > > I was asking if she has ever actually sought out that type of position. > Perhaps she doesn't hold such a position because she has never looked for > one. Go find a dictionary. Look up 'sarcasm' and 'facetious'. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 17:59: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CC4837B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7BEB1786E3; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:28:37 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:28:37 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, Terry Lambert , "Brandon D. Valentine" , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Hiten Pandya Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011213044944.L56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C193048.4FBDB302@mindspring.com> <3C187D1F.24D8E4D2@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There seem to be a lot of misconceptions going on about IBM's intentions with regard to the GPL release of JFS2. In particular, I think that Terry is wide of the mark, despite having worked with IBM. I don't speak officially for IBM (I'm not paid enough :-), but I can confidently state that: 1. IBM has released JFS2 as open source. You can do whatever the license allows with it, including unrestricted commercial use. 2. IBM chose the GPL rather than the BSD license because the BSD license would allow competitors to take the code and use it as the basis of one of *their* commercial, closed-source solutions. IBM does not want this. 3. There are no other restrictions on its use. 4. It is possible to port JFS2 to FreeBSD without violating any license, either via loophole or otherwise. In this connection, I would like to point out an issue with the LGPL which I personally think is sailing close to the wind: I can't see any real license distinction between linking GPL'd code into the kernel and loading the module either during the boot or afterwards. In the first case, the code is statically linked, in the latter it's dynamically linked. In each case, the result is the same. That's not important, though, because RMS does think there's a difference (or he's prepared to pretend there's one, and he's prepared to sanction use in this form). I'll address some of the points which have been raised: On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 8:14:57 +0000, Hiten Pandya wrote: > The real way to solve this problem is: > > IBM has release JFS code under the 'General Public License'. What > we have to do is ask this question internally to IBM, which Greg > might do that for us, if possible; and then we see what the JFS > Team from IBM's views are about this. I've done this. As I expected, they're all in favour of it. > example: A project called UFS2, which would be our target for > improving current UFS code. You'll be chasing the experts on this one. I'd personally prefer to see a JFS port. > If we get positive results by September 2002, that JFS code has been > ported in its entirety without affecting FreeBSD or the Licensing > terms in any manner of way, than we can possibly, merge it (under > src/gnu or something) to FreeBSD. It's nice to plan your time, but why specifically September 2002? > In a nutshell: We should ask IBM JFS (Core) Team, and see what they > say; We Start the Project || UFS2. I think the real issue is getting enough manpower to do the work. As I've said before, IBM will help, not hinder. On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 1:33:10 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > There are several ways to do this with a JFS port; the last five > skate by on technicalities, while the first simply disregards the > license entirely: > > 4) Build boot code that can at least read JFS, and load the > real JFS as a kernel module. > > o Since you have to deal with all the lookup and > log version selection issues, this is more than > half way to a reimplementation without the GPL. No, I don't believe this to be the case. I'm currently looking at reading JFS1 file systems, and for read-only access I can completely ignore the journal (assuming the file system is clean). > This is legally risky, if Greg is right, and the > intent was to prevent commercial use of the code, > since you defeat their intent. No, you misunderstand. See above: the intention was to prevent competitors incorporating IBM code in their proprietary products. You can't prevent commercial use of GPL software. On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 6:06:06 -0500, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> As I said before: feel free to write the code. Just don't expect >> people who, philosophically, want the FreeBSD code to be usable >> (and used!) as a source of reference implementations to participate >> in this process. > > That fact that this thread had to even exist is unforunate. We won't go > into the GPL is evil aspect, since it's been pretty well covered > elsewhere on the web by various people. I would mention that for all of > the reasons mentioned herein porting JFS is, as should be obvious by > now, a very risky project straddling ugly licensing issues. I don't see any ugly licensing issues. > I also don't know what makes JFS a better candidate for porting than > any of the other GPL'd filesystems. Those who have significant > involvement with the Linux community will note that the Linux port > of JFS doesn't get nearly as much publicity or high profile use as > the Linux port of XFS. Correct. One of the intentions of the JFS project is to get in the Linux source tree. They believe that their approach, which has made fewer contentious changes to the kernel than XFS has. This doesn't have to worry the FreeBSD project, of course. On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 12:57:14 -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > >> 5) Use an alternate boot partition of a different FS type >> (e.g. FAT32 or FFS), and load the JFS module from there. > >> o This is harder than option #3, since it requires >> minimally that union mounts work, since mounts >> over mount points before the kernel is booted >> can't work, and therefore for your / to be JFS, >> it will have to be mounted over top of the boot /, >> which would be non-JFS. > > Maybe the JFS4FBSD developer could replace the boot loader with one > which works rather like LILO and gets the kernel, the JFS module, > and whatever else it needs from a pre-prepared non-FS image which > the loader can read without FS support. Even harder to argue that > this is mere common storage and not a linked program. The loader might have to be GPL'd. On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 11:57:44 -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > >> someone create FS images for you to test with, all without >> looking at a line of code that would render you "contaminated". > > I wonder about that after having seen it said several times. > > I'm quite sure (without explict evidence) that if this was taken to > court that an accused infringer would be determined to be contaminated > by any open source code, upon the presumption that he had looked at the > code, there being no practical means to discover the truth and the ease > of hiding it. "Contamination" was a term thrown around during the USL wars of the early 90s. I even have a USENIX pin somewhere saying "mentally contaminated". Cases like this have been tried in court in Europe: people who worked for one company were required to sign contracts which prohibited them from ever working for any of their competitors, effectively requiring them to discard their expertise and take up some other line of work. The contracts were found to be in breach of law. I don't know if US law would rule any differently. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 18: 4: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD6337B416; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:04:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 347C7786E3; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:33:59 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:33:59 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Hiten Pandya Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, tlambert2@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD [VOTE] Message-ID: <20011214123359.P3448@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213074611.01b923a0@localhost> <20011213164444.4572.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011213164444.4572.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 8:44:44 -0800, Hiten Pandya wrote: > hi, > (from the person who started the JFS for FreeBSD) > > please, lets not get into this, what do you propose > we should do (the porters), one way or the other, we > are going to use GPL code.. > > which one shall it be? > JFS or XFS I've said it before: JFS. > If you think that none, than please put a -1 in the next message you > send to this thread. Otherwise put +1 if you agree on any of the > above FS. This is not the way we do things. As Terry says, find enough people to do the work, then Just Do It. > The reason for doing this is voting kinda thing is to end this > quaralling (my bluntness again.), forever and know what developers > are thinking. You can be sure that 95% of them don't care one way or the other. Of the rest, half object on religious grounds, others may think it's technically viable or not. There's only one way to know for sure: do it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 18: 6: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F4337B419 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:05:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1C14C786E3; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:35:57 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:35:57 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , hitmaster2k@yahoo.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD Message-ID: <20011214123557.Q3448@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213072327.043556b0@localhost> <1155.1008254206@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1155.1008254206@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 15:36:46 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <4.3.2.7.2.20011213072327.043556b0@localhost>, Brett Glass writes: >> At 01:36 AM 12/13/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >>> Brett: don't go of half cocked. Contamination is not an issue, since >>> most FreeBSD won't ever let it be. You need to read the whole thread. >> >> I've read the thread, and I'm concerned. Already, FreeBSD simply >> CANNOT BE BUILT and WILL NOT RUN IN THE DEFAULT INSTALL without >> GPLed code. This means that it is already contaminated, and it >> is truly sad that the project leadership has not made removing >> this contamination a primary goal. > > Brett, > > I've been working on FreeBSD since the very beginning, yet I have > a hard time judging your claim above as either true or false. Well, there are multiple statements: >> Already, FreeBSD simply CANNOT BE BUILT and WILL NOT RUN IN THE >> DEFAULT INSTALL without GPLed code. This is obviously true. There are a lot of GPLd tools in the build environment, notably gcc and binutils. >> This means that it is already contaminated, For some definition of "contaminated", yes. I see this statement as the definition. >> and it is truly sad that the project leadership has not made >> removing this contamination a primary goal. That's a very subjective point of view. I definitely have better things to do than start a religious war. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 18:11:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (h24-64-56-135.cg.shawcable.net [24.64.56.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FA137B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBE2BWS13142; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:11:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBE2BWr06698; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:11:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:11:32 -0700 From: Chad David To: Greg Lehey Cc: Hiten Pandya , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert2@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD [VOTE] Message-ID: <20011213191132.A6676@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213074611.01b923a0@localhost> <20011213164444.4572.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> <20011214123359.P3448@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011214123359.P3448@monorchid.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:33:59PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:33:59PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 8:44:44 -0800, Hiten Pandya wrote: > > hi, > > (from the person who started the JFS for FreeBSD) > > > > please, lets not get into this, what do you propose > > we should do (the porters), one way or the other, we > > are going to use GPL code.. > > > > which one shall it be? > > JFS or XFS If everybody wants a filesystem with the features of JFS and XFS, but the licensing of the ones already in existance will make RMS sue you, then why not just write a new one from scratch? Then the issue of portability and licensing just go away, and you can toss GFS into the mix for fun. :-). (I am half serious). -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 18:48: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA46A37B417 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBE2lk802467; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 03:47:46 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15379.65514.588658.899404@guru.mired.org> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011209144217.A49268@darkstar.gte.net> <15379.65514.588658.899404@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 03:32:10 +0100 To: "Mike Meyer" , Robert Clark From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:20 PM -0600 on 2001/12/09, Mike Meyer wrote: > The two constraints I heard are that 1) the player had to fit in the > cassette/radio space in an automobile console, which provides a > maximum for the outside diameter, That's not the way I heard the story regarding the outside diameter. > and 2) it had to hold a specific > Beethoven symphony (the fifth?), which provides a maximum for the > inner diameter. I believe that this story is largely correct, although it was the outside diameter that was set as a result of the particular song and not the internal diameter. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 18:48: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE03E37B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBE2lh802432; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 03:47:43 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011209144217.A49268@darkstar.gte.net> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011209144217.A49268@darkstar.gte.net> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 03:30:20 +0100 To: Robert Clark , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Mike Meyer , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:42 PM -0800 on 2001/12/09, Robert Clark wrote: > The hole in the middle of a CD was sized to match > a coin local to where the CD standard was set? Correctamundo. Philips and Sony were the two companies in question, and Philips chose the inside diameter to match the exact same size of the Dutch dime -- at 18mm, one of the smallest size coins currently in circulation in the world (if not the smallest). Now, does anyone know why the outside diameter was chosen to be the size it was? -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 18:53:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B09237B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:53:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 61512786E6; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:23:15 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:23:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Chad David Cc: Hiten Pandya , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, tlambert2@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD [VOTE] Message-ID: <20011214132315.E35595@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213074611.01b923a0@localhost> <20011213164444.4572.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> <20011214123359.P3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011213191132.A6676@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011213191132.A6676@colnta.acns.ab.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 19:11:32 -0700, Chad David wrote: > On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:33:59PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 8:44:44 -0800, Hiten Pandya wrote: >>> hi, >>> (from the person who started the JFS for FreeBSD) >>> >>> please, lets not get into this, what do you propose >>> we should do (the porters), one way or the other, we >>> are going to use GPL code.. >>> >>> which one shall it be? >>> JFS or XFS > > If everybody wants a filesystem with the features of JFS and XFS, but the > licensing of the ones already in existance will make RMS sue you, then > why not just write a new one from scratch? Because it's a lot of work. Anyway, your condition doesn't apply. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 18:59:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DBA37B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0149.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.149] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EiZb-0007BG-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:59:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3C196B25.5A4FE70B@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:59:49 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Not to take you to task, but you don't know who you are criticising > > about the finer points of copyright law, do you? > > I know you addressed that statement to someone else. But I am missing the > point. (I guess it means you are saying that you are an authority in > copyright law.) No, I'm saying that a Hoover Institute Fellow, who is a published author of at least 10 books, a large chunk of which have used quoted material of Ronald Reagan under terms of fair use and/or explicit permission, knows what she's doing. [ ... ] > Okay -- nonprofit educational purposes. [ ... ] > The entire article was copied. > > "The greater the amount of copyrighted work used, the less likely that a > court will characterize the use as fair. The use of an entire copyright > work is almost never fair." (The AP Stylebook and Libel Manual, 1992.) The entire paper was not. > Possibly less people will read the original document. The readership will > decline, the company will lose money, the paper cuts back writers, the > original author loses further assignments, Boston goes into a economic > recession, a new tax ... Everyone who would have otherwise purchased a copy of the Boton Globe, but didn't because of the posting, please raise their hands? OK, now everyone who buys media of any sort any time it mentions FreeBSD, and lets the media know it, and why, please raise their hands (add one copy of the Boston Globe from Barnes&Noble for me to this total). > > I count 4 of the 6 statutorily permitted uses in her original posting. > > What four? 1) Comment 2) News reporting 3) Teaching 4) Research If you want to include the comments on the article (including mine), you can add: 5) Criticism > Fair use is often hard to define. I have an idea... why don't you ask the journalist and/or the Boston Globe if they mind the article being quoted in the context of a forum in which (1) the subject of the article, Jordan Hubbard, is well known, (2) which gives international exposure to both the reporter and the Boston Globe, which would not have otherwise have resulted from the publication of the article in the Globe alone. I could add to this list, but it's a dead horse. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 19:41:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 0BAD037B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:41:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:41:30 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , grog@FreeBSD.ORG, hitmaster2k@yahoo.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@critter.freebsd.dk Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD Message-ID: <20011213194130.A63114@FreeBSD.org> References: <200112130604.XAA24982@lariat.org> <3C186891.FDC62A2F@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011213072327.043556b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213072327.043556b0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 07:26:36AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've read the thread, and I'm concerned. Already, FreeBSD simply > CANNOT BE BUILT and WILL NOT RUN IN THE DEFAULT INSTALL without > GPLed code. This means that it is already contaminated, and it > is truly sad that the project leadership has not made removing > this contamination a primary goal. I promise to help integrate brettcc into the system as soon as you finish and demonstrate it to be a sensible alternative. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 19:48: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CE837B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0149.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.149] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EjKN-0003gf-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:48:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3C197678.34FD54EE@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:48:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: Freebsd-chat Subject: Re: whats this?! References: <3C1954A6.8264978A@pantherdragon.org> <3C18E8BA.24815.F0A8EDA@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie Cash wrote: [ ... BASH and multiple "/" characters ... ] > It's a Bash "feature". Anywhere that you can use / in a path, you can > use multiple /'s. It only sees the first one and ignores everything up > to the first non-/ character. > > I've run across this several times in the past, especially with autoconf- > generated init.d scripts on Linux systems running Bash1 and Bash2. > > Even though it shows you multiple slashes, internally it treats them all > as one. [shrug] go fig. Say, that *is* buggy. POSIX reserves a leading "//" as the POSIX name space escape mechanism, so it is required to be passed to the OS, where the interpretation is implementation defined. Intermediate "//" not at the lead-in is defined to be treated as "/", unless it follows the name space escape introducer, in which case the behaviour is defined by the namespace escaped to. The POSIX namespace escape mechanism is used in Microsoft OSs to select network resources, as in: "//nodename/" for storage sharing of file spaces over the network (Internally, the path resolution system treats "/" and "\" identically, though the "command.com" interpretation is stricter... "/" is treated as the "switch character", unless in the config.sys you do something like add the line "switchchar=-", which makes "/" work as "\", and "-" work as the option introducer instead of "/"). FreeBSD doesn't properly support POSIX namespace escape because of the way the path resolution recursion in vfs_lookup.c is handled, since you can't set the namespace as an attribute, and then have it be inherited over subsequent path components properly (in effect, you have to prefix each component, as in: "///one///two..." to be able to escape the complete path). It would actually be useful to permit, for example, selection of the 8.3 vs. Unicode namespaces when doing NTFS lookups, or the 8.3 vs. Joliet vs. RockRidge namespaces when doing ISO9660FS lookups, or even node selection for SMBFS lookups, so that mounts need not be explicit. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 20:31: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DC037B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0149.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.149] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ejzl-0005aF-00; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:30:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:30:53 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > There seem to be a lot of misconceptions going on about IBM's > intentions with regard to the GPL release of JFS2. In particular, I > think that Terry is wide of the mark, despite having worked with IBM. > I don't speak officially for IBM (I'm not paid enough :-), but I can > confidently state that: > > 1. IBM has released JFS2 as open source. You can do whatever the > license allows with it, including unrestricted commercial use. You can not perform unrestricted commercial use with GPL'ed code; it's that simple. If I wanted to release a FreeBSD CDROM that installed on a JFS by default, I couldn't do it, since I can't comply with clauses 2(b), 4, and 6. In other words, I am allowed only _restricted_ commercial use. > 4. It is possible to port JFS2 to FreeBSD without violating any > license, either via loophole or otherwise. > > In this connection, I would like to point out an issue with the > LGPL which I personally think is sailing close to the wind: I > can't see any real license distinction between linking GPL'd code > into the kernel and loading the module either during the boot or > afterwards. In the first case, the code is statically linked, in > the latter it's dynamically linked. In each case, the result is > the same. That's not important, though, because RMS does think > there's a difference (or he's prepared to pretend there's one, and > he's prepared to sanction use in this form). My understanding is that the JFS code is GPL'ed, not LGPL'ed. > > 4) Build boot code that can at least read JFS, and load the > > real JFS as a kernel module. > > > > o Since you have to deal with all the lookup and > > log version selection issues, this is more than > > half way to a reimplementation without the GPL. > > No, I don't believe this to be the case. I'm currently looking at > reading JFS1 file systems, and for read-only access I can completely > ignore the journal (assuming the file system is clean). You can't. Be definition, you must take the most recent journal entry for the journalled data, and therefore you must compare. > > This is legally risky, if Greg is right, and the > > intent was to prevent commercial use of the code, > > since you defeat their intent. > > No, you misunderstand. See above: the intention was to prevent > competitors incorporating IBM code in their proprietary products. You > can't prevent commercial use of GPL software. The license is incompatible with the FreeBSD license, since you can not change the FreeBSD license on the code in order to comply with clause 2(b) of the GPL, which requires that all the code in a derivative work be licensed under the GPL. This is a defacto prevention of the commercial use of GPL software in the context of a joint derivative work of the GPL software and non-GPL software. > "Contamination" was a term thrown around during the USL wars of the > early 90s. I even have a USENIX pin somewhere saying "mentally > contaminated". Cases like this have been tried in court in Europe: > people who worked for one company were required to sign contracts > which prohibited them from ever working for any of their competitors, > effectively requiring them to discard their expertise and take up some > other line of work. The contracts were found to be in breach of law. > I don't know if US law would rule any differently. In the context of where I used the word, from which the reply by Gary S. to which you are actually replying here, "contamination" is a legal test of whether or not someone can participate in a "clean room" implementation from specifications derived from a "dirty" source. This dates back to the Compaq, and then, later, Phoenix "clean room" implemetnation of the first "100% compatible" PC BIOS. A person who has experience with the code in question is considered "contaminated" and is not permitted to participate in the implementation from the specification. The people who create the specification by examining the original product are, by definition, "contaminated" by their association to it. The specific legal term is "fruit of the poison tree"; here are some legal references: This is the same principle which led to the Exclusionary Rule (5th ammendment protections preclude coerced confessions, etc.). The cultural reference from which it's derived is the poem "A Poison Tree", by William Blake. Here is one instance of the poem: ... The Gods of the earth and sea, Sought through Nature to find this Tree, But their search was all in vain; There grows one in the Human Brain. See also: ...etc. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 21:49:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp001pub.verizon.net (smtp001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1907337B416 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp001pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id fBE5n4I14880 Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:49:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA61010; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:49:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:49:40 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Terry Lambert Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Kelly Hendrix , FreeBSD Chat , Mike Meyer Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011213214940.B60944@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org><0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org><20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org><15382.29599.349155.309028@guru.mired.org><20011211230257.A5157@tisys.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011212181551.015734a8@threespace.com><15384.11772.363959.693167@guru.mired.org><003701c18398$07091d30$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.17244.476714.955574@guru.mired.org><004901c1839d$b273c440$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15384.19146.990082.336336@guru.mired.org><005201c183a1$39ae92c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15384.20874.658211.478300@guru.mired.org> <008401c183a5$1f1cace0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011213164109.A16491@www.slackwit.com> <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C193586.CBB53F41@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3C193586.CBB53F41@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 03:11:02PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you're lucky, Terry, she might even be able to get you a job. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) [RC] On Thu, Dec 13, 2001 at 03:11:02PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > On the contrary, you only prove that people _with_ IT experience can get a > > UNIX system up and running. Many people using computers today weren't even > > born when the Commodore 64 was popular, and most of the rest were just kids, > > so it's safe to say that they have far less experience than you do. > > I will have to call my sister, who was President Bush Senior's > Assistant Press Secretary's nanny. > > She will be incredibly thrilled that her Commodore 64 experience > now means that she is an experienced IT professional. > > You will, of course, be willing to act as a reference on her > updated resume... > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 22:49:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D513737B405 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A39C30B; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29343; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:49:32 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBE6mWs19919; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:48:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Dec 2001 22:48:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5ipu5i9u0w.u5i@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > The license is incompatible with the FreeBSD license, since you > can not change the FreeBSD license on the code in order to comply > with clause 2(b) of the GPL, which requires that all the code in a > derivative work be licensed under the GPL. Be careful there. The GPL requires the derivative work "as a whole" to be burdened by the GPL, but it does not require "all the code" to be burdend by the GPL (unless "all the code" means "the work as a whole", which isn't how I read it). Copyrights in a derivative extend only to the work of the copyright owner. For example, one may copyright a book for which one does not own the copyrights of any one chapter (only with their permission, of course). Your license may say "don't copy the book", but you can't say "don't copy a chapter" if it's copyright owner has already granted you that copyright. (Well, like Linus and RMS, you can SAY it, but it won't be enforced by law courts.) Fortunately, one does not need to change the BSD licence, to incorporate BSD-licenced code into any other licensed work, as long you honor the few conditions of the BSD license, because the BSD liceence allows that. The BSD license terms continue to apply to the BSD-licensed code (and copies) forever, even in the context of an otherwise-licensed work. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 23:45: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A47937B405; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBE7ixW74673; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:44:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:44:59 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: To: Eric Melville Cc: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , , , , Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20011213194130.A63114@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <20011213234404.H16958-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Eric Melville wrote: > I promise to help integrate brettcc into the system as soon as you finish > and demonstrate it to be a sensible alternative. i'll help transfer the various support libraries, of course, since this may take a while i have time to hone my meager coding skills. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 13 23:50:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3843837B42B; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A8DDBEA5; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06819; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:50:39 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBE7ncY19925; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:49:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Dec 2001 23:49:37 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 67 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > 1. IBM has released JFS2 as open source. You can do whatever the > license allows with it, including unrestricted commercial use. But in the next item, you say why IBM restricts one commercial use. :-< > 2. IBM chose the GPL rather than the BSD license because the BSD > license would allow competitors to take the code and use it as the > basis of one of *their* commercial, closed-source solutions. IBM > does not want this. Right. The Basic Instinct of all selfish interests. OK, in it's place. > 3. There are no other restrictions on its use. There are several (eg, splash screen), but none as important to most. > 4. It is possible to port JFS2 to FreeBSD without violating any > license, either via loophole or otherwise. > > In this connection, I would like to point out an issue with the > LGPL which I personally think is sailing close to the wind: I > can't see any real license distinction between linking GPL'd code > into the kernel and loading the module either during the boot or > afterwards. In the first case, the code is statically linked, in > the latter it's dynamically linked. In each case, the result is > the same. But the result isn't at issue; copyright law and the GPL contract don't care about results. As GPLers are fond of repeating, the GPL is only about licencing copyrights. The GPL allows you to do whatever you want (except re-publishing derivatives) with GPL code which you already own. In fact, they claim that you don't even need the GPL to do that (except re-publishing anything). The problem comes when trying to publish (copy) GPLed code, especially in the form of a derivative. (Well, there is a theory some would like to believe that none of that matters so that one can be publishing a derivative which consist wholly of one's own work and none of the original code. I have to admit that this theory seems to hold for books and movies, but few have much confidence on how courts will apply this to software.) > It's nice to plan your time, but why specifically September 2002? I suspected it had to do with being ready for FreeBSD 5.0. > No, you misunderstand. See above: the intention was to prevent > competitors incorporating IBM code in their proprietary products. You > can't prevent commercial use of GPL software. Again, the GPL prevents some commercial use. For another example, you can't charge for the license. Also, you misuse the term "prorietary" above. "Proprietary", in discussions of intellectual property, means "not in the public domain". When you mean "closed source", say "closed source", please. > The loader might have to be GPL'd. If the loader, then the kernel too. The working theory would be that the portions of the disk which holds the loader, kernel, and JFS module are just a very simple filesystem holding a BSD loader and OS and a GPL module which is dynamically linked after booting the OS. That sort of thing is done every time you run FreeBSD's (GNU) "tar", in my view and the GPL allows it. But a court might see it differently after hearing it explained by IBM's or the FSF's lawyers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 0: 0:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF2637B405 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334A3C364; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08239; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:00:46 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBE7xkK19928; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:59:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: Freebsd-chat Subject: Re: whats this?! References: <3C1954A6.8264978A@pantherdragon.org> <3C18E8BA.24815.F0A8EDA@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 13 Dec 2001 23:59:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C18E8BA.24815.F0A8EDA@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Freddie Cash" writes: > It's a Bash "feature". Anywhere that you can use / in a path, you can > use multiple /'s. It only sees the first one and ignores everything up > to the first non-/ character. AFAIK, that's true of all shells and also of the OS and OS library routines. How PWD is set does seems to be a "bash" feature. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 0:41:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7643737B416 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0721DC389; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14436; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:41:43 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBE8egN50782; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:40:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Freebsd-chat Subject: Re: whats this?! References: <200112132105.QAA17035@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <3C1954A6.8264978A@pantherdragon.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 14 Dec 2001 00:40:41 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C1954A6.8264978A@pantherdragon.org> Message-ID: <1id71i9oty.71i@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > > You might have found a feature of some proprietary shell. > > I wouldn't exactly call bash a proprietary shell: Sorry to hear that, because it is one, exactly. From the man page: Bash is Copyright (C) 1989-2001 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc. That's how you know it is proprietary. The FSF has proprietary rights in it and you may get troublesome letters from the proprietor's lawyer if you exercise those rights outside the terms of your license contract with the proprietor. Proprietary doesn't mean closed; consider patents. The "pdksh" shell is one of the few popular non-proprietary programs. (I don't let software people (esp. copyleftists) tell me what "proprietary" means any more than I let intellectual property (better termed "proprietary information") people tell me what "language" means. It's a lost cause, but I can't resist an occasional rant.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 1:36:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web21105.mail.yahoo.com (web21105.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA6EC37B417 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:36:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011214093613.90937.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.4.34.175] by web21105.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:36:13 PST Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:36:13 -0800 (PST) From: Hiten Pandya Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, tlambert2@mindspring.com, brett@lariat.org In-Reply-To: <20011214123557.Q3448@monorchid.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, (to the GPL opposer) no offence but why do we really have to think about the issue of contamination when gcc and binutils are commercial grade tools and they are very useful and do a lot of things. as long as the product is good, and has quality, there is no harm is using it. thanks =hiten = ===== -Hiten, Thank You, Yours Sincerely, Hiten Pandya, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 1:44:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB63037B417; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBE9iCR02719; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:44:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <017f01c18483$e3d5daf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" , Subject: Very positive press in ZDNet Australia for FreeBSD Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:44:13 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org An article strongly favoring the various free flavors of BSD over Linux, especially FreeBSD: http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/os/story/0,2000024997,20262355,00.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 1:48:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.totalise.co.uk (mail.totalise.co.uk [217.197.192.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81FC37B416; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from yahoo.com [80.4.34.175] (hitenp@mail.totalise.co.uk) by mail.totalise.co.uk; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:47:55 +0000 X-WM-Posted-At: mail.totalise.co.uk; Fri, 14 Dec 01 09:47:55 +0000 Message-ID: <3C19CAD3.A5685BEF@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:48:03 +0000 From: Hiten Pandya Reply-To: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grog@FreeBSD.org Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, phk@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Maybe the JFS4FBSD developer could replace the boot loader with one which works rather like LILO and gets the kernel, the JFS module, and whatever else it needs from a pre-prepared non-FS image which the loader can read without FS support. Even harder to argue that this is mere common storage and not a linked program. See Last point below :-) >(Greg)September 2002? I think that give us enough time for doing all the wee bit work for merging this into the FreeBSD src/gnu tree or something. >(Greg)The loader might have to be GPL'd. I dont think so, we can use that LILO loader which is also GPL'ed under the src/sys/boot tree. I will make a seperate article when the file system is ready saying what to do if people wanted to use JFS in their environments. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 2:40:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108AE37B41A for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 02:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0073.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.73] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EplJ-0004Z1-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 02:40:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3C19D716.3FC77047@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 02:40:22 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <5ipu5i9u0w.u5i@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > The license is incompatible with the FreeBSD license, since you > > can not change the FreeBSD license on the code in order to comply > > with clause 2(b) of the GPL, which requires that all the code in a > > derivative work be licensed under the GPL. > > Be careful there. The GPL requires the derivative work "as a whole" > to be burdened by the GPL, but it does not require "all the code" to > be burdend by the GPL (unless "all the code" means "the work as a > whole", which isn't how I read it). You seem to be claiming that an aggregation license of the GPL on the works as a collection would satisfy the clause; however, at the end of clause 2 of the GPL, it says: Thus, it is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your rights to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works based on the Program. In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License. It is very clear from both section 2 & 3 that the program -- in this case, the kernel -- becomes a derivative work of the JFS code. See: 17 USC Section 101. Definitions A "derivative work" is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a "derivative work". For future reference, here is the entirety of Title 17: > Copyrights in a derivative extend only to the work of the copyright > owner. For example, one may copyright a book for which one does not own > the copyrights of any one chapter (only with their permission, of > course). Your license may say "don't copy the book", but you can't say > "don't copy a chapter" if it's copyright owner has already granted you > that copyright. (Well, like Linus and RMS, you can SAY it, but it won't > be enforced by law courts.) > > Fortunately, one does not need to change the BSD licence, to incorporate > BSD-licenced code into any other licensed work, as long you honor the > few conditions of the BSD license, because the BSD liceence allows that. > The BSD license terms continue to apply to the BSD-licensed code (and > copies) forever, even in the context of an otherwise-licensed work. Forgive me if I don't want to be the test case for your legal theory, particularly when it disagrees with those of the highly paid IBM lawyers who did the 6 month due dilligence on the Whistle acquisition. 8^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 4:28:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039AA37B417 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 04:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-26-38.txucom.net [209.34.26.38]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBDMGeC58740 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:16:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: GB Clark II To: "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: Re: Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:16:41 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <20011211140107.A67653@FreeBSD.org> <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> In-Reply-To: <001601c18420$6777f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01121316164102.27037@prime.vsservices.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 31 December 1969 17:59, Anthony Atkielski wrote: --SNIP ABUNCH OF HEADERS-- > > Kelly writes: > > I'd bought my PC in March of '96, and the only > > experience I'd had with OS's up to that point was > > Windows 95. (Well, I did have a Commodore 64 > > years before) I'm proof that you don't need IT > > experience to get a Unix system up and running. > > On the contrary, you only prove that people _with_ IT experience can get a > UNIX system up and running. Many people using computers today weren't even > born when the Commodore 64 was popular, and most of the rest were just > kids, so it's safe to say that they have far less experience than you do. > One question and I'm out of here again. How does a persons age have ANYTHING to do with IT experience? Make that two questions. How does playing on a C64 (which does not have anything to do with UNIX) count as IT experience and/or UNIX experience? I can also count as not having any IT experience when I started 11 years ago. My parents gave me an old 286 which I had DOS on at first. Within 6 months I was looking for a better system and found Mark Williams Co.s' Coherent and have not looked back since. I belive general ablitity has alot more to do with it than IT experience. If you want something and try, you can do it, period. GB P.S. Please keep this on Chat, I don't need more stuff in my mailbox...:) -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 5:15: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.russlan.com (ns.russlan.com [195.42.79.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4D637B41D; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 05:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from user2 (user1.russlan.com [192.168.0.101]) by ns.russlan.com (8.10.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id fBEDEtb12341; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:14:55 +0300 Message-Id: <200112141314.fBEDEtb12341@ns.russlan.com> From: "Transcargo" To: "Transcarco"@ns.russlan.com Subject: =?Windows-1251?Q?=D0=F3=EA=EE=E2=EE=E4=E8=F2=E5=EB=FE=20?= =?Windows-1251?Q?=D1=D0=CE=D7=CD=CE!!!?= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:14:55 Ìîñêîâñêîå âðåìÿ (çèìà) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: 'WE' Group Spamer Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org WWW.TRANSCARGO.RU Òðàíñïîðòíî-ýêñïåäèòîðñêàÿ êîìïàíèÿ "Ðóññëàíä Ýêñïåäèòîð" ñâèäåòåëüñòâóåò Âàì ñâîå ïî÷òåíèå è ïðåäëàãàåò óñëóãè ïî ïåðåâîçêå ãðóçîâ èç ëþáîé òî÷êè äî ìåñòà íàçíà÷åíèÿ. Ñôåðà äåÿòåëüíîñòè êîìïàíèè "Ðóññëàíä Ýêñïåäèòîð" - îðãàíèçàöèÿ ìåæäóíàðîäíûõ ãðóçîâûõ ïåðåâîçîê, ïåðåâîçîê ïî òåððèòîðèè Ðîññèè è ñòðàí ÑÍà âñåìè âèäàìè òðàíñïîðòà, òàìîæåííîå îôîðìëåíèå ýêñïîðòíûõ, èìïîðòíûõ è òðàíçèòíûõ ãðóçîâ, êîíñîëèäèðîâàííûå ïåðåâîçêè ïî Ðîññèè ( 66 ãîðîäîâ), ñêëàäñêèå óñëóãè. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 6:22: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E4637B435; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0017.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.17] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EtCm-0003q1-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:20:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1A0AC8.538A5EA8@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:20:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chad David Cc: Greg Lehey , Hiten Pandya , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD [VOTE] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011213074611.01b923a0@localhost> <20011213164444.4572.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> <20011214123359.P3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011213191132.A6676@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chad David wrote: > If everybody wants a filesystem with the features of JFS and XFS, but the > licensing of the ones already in existance will make RMS sue you, then > why not just write a new one from scratch? Then the issue of portability > and licensing just go away, and you can toss GFS into the mix for fun. > > :-). > > (I am half serious). The GFS people were willing to deal with the license issues, last time we talked, but there is no FreeBSD storage device driver that is capable of operating on shared storage, at this time, so there is no way to test the correctness of anything by a local implementation, which is relatively uninteresting, since future interoperability requiremenets with, e.g. Linux or multiple FreeBSD clients of the same storage device could dictate significant code changes being required (e.g. dependency on explicit cache coherency may be implicit in the design, etc.). It would be nice if someone would write a shared media controller driver so that a real implementation was possible. Since we really can't do anything with it without an FS that requires it, that means someone who knows the hardware involved would need to work on the driver code (e.g. not me, since I would have to educate myself). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 6:23:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D97B237B6B2 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0017.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.17] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EtEr-0005oN-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:23:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1A0B4A.C10C841F@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:23:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: <6eg06ebtbe.06e@localhost.localdomain> <3C193C60.53E5E99D@mindspring.com> <2e3d2ebpco.d2e@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: [ ... ] I went to respond to this, but it's pointless; you can do your own web searches, I think... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 9: 7:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0412D37B442 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16Evnm-000Gnq-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:07:14 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id fBEH7EI13752 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:07:14 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:07:14 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? Message-ID: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We hear so often that high-end Unix worstations are used for advanced scientific applications. The biggest of the big iron usually goes to weather/finance forecasting and especially nuclear research. Who writes these apps? Specialized software companies or in-house developers? Are they batch-based, command line apps or GUI driven? jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 9:57:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F2937B419 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id fBEHrsM32765; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:53:54 -0800 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:53:54 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? Message-ID: <20011214095354.A18441@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="huq684BweRXVnRxX" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 05:07:14PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --huq684BweRXVnRxX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 05:07:14PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: >=20 > We hear so often that high-end Unix worstations are used for advanced > scientific applications. The biggest of the big iron usually goes to > weather/finance forecasting and especially nuclear research. >=20 > Who writes these apps? Specialized software companies or in-house > developers? Most high-end scienTific apps are written by scientists. Some very large, later generation applications have software engineers and computer scientists involved, but in general it's actual scientists who write the majority of the code. > Are they batch-based, command line apps or GUI driven? Most of the computation can be started from a command line, but the mode of operation varies from applications which take a single set of inputs and run for days on hundreds of nodes to applications where a script feeds multiple runs into a batch queueing system. Generally, there is a visualzation component, but how it works varies significantly. Some systems visualize after computation, others allow visualization during, and yet other have interactive visualzations which steer the computation. There's no one true way. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --huq684BweRXVnRxX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8GjyxXY6L6fI4GtQRAqrPAKCrJu3JCkRgVg0D4F2QT0KeV3MoyQCg5JT2 kcADqEirKvVFCktHxtW5IfY= =Vfba -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --huq684BweRXVnRxX-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 10:52:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370F737B405 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBEIqKi22277; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:52:21 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9v788v$jc3$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> References: <9v788v$jc3$1@xs4.xs4all.nl> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:39:49 +0100 To: micheloo@xs4all.nl (Michel Oosterhof), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:33 AM +0100 on 2001/12/12, Michel Oosterhof wrote: > It sounds very much like a dutch emergency telephone. They're placed > along the dutch highways every few kilometers. Was it yellow? > > Here's a picture: > http://www.anwb.nl/content/images/historie_ww_1994vraagpaal.JPG There are two interesting things about this URL: 1. I've travelled a fair bit in the Netherlands, and I don't recall ever seeing anything like this. Are they local to specific areas, or have I just missed them somehow? 2. I just did a two-day class this week at crisscross.nl in Zoetermeer, on behalf of Men & Mice. This was a "DNS & BIND" class based on the materials developed by Cricket Liu (who is now Vice President for Research and Development for Men & Mice), but it also included a half-day of material on the Men & Mice products DNS Expert Professional and QuickDNS. One of the people in the class asked me to use this domain as an example, and see if I could find any problems. Unfortunately, I found a number of problems -- most were highlighted by DNS Expert Professional, but I found a few more myself that even it had not discovered. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 10:53: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BEC37B405; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBEIqai22419; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:52:36 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> References: <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:01:59 +0100 To: "Brandon D. Valentine" , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Cc: , , , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:06 AM -0500 on 2001/12/13, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > Whether it was JFS or XFS, having a journaling file system port could > be quite useful, even if it's not available as the root FS. For > instance, with one of our large fileservers it would be a large win to > be able to put FreeBSD on the system with the system drive running FFS > w/ SoftUpdates, and attach a disk array to it which was using a > journaling FS like XFS. The journaling is not as important on the > system disk, in fact on most of those disk servers the system disk can > die and be replaced within the hour since it's a pretty simple > configuration. Where it's a real win is with the large filesystems. I still don't understand why JFS has any interest over softupdates. Indeed, the papers I've read seem to indicate that, at best, JFS may approach the kind of speed possible with softupdates, and they both allow you to re/boot quickly and with mount times that do not include lengthy fsck. Indeed, Sun paid megabucks to Kirk in order to get a commercial license for softupdates, and yet they already have a built-in JFS that has been freely available since Solaris 2.6. Why would they pay money for something like this if it wasn't better than JFS? So, why should we care about JFS? -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 10:53:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6B537B416 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBEIqbi22442; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:52:37 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:28:31 +0100 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:16 PM -0800 on 2001/12/13, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: >> (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in >> relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and > > The entire article was copied. Was the entire magazine, paper, or website copied? No, just a single article. Do you know how many different "clippings" papers/magazines there are in the world, where they literally copy hundreds and hundreds of entire articles from a variety of sources, and then put that together and send that out to hundreds or thousands (or even millions) of people around the world? Surely they're not all in violation of copyright laws. I mean, no University, College, or high school could survive if they weren't. Heck, the publications departments at most companies couldn't survive, and you'd put the entire US DoD out of work, too -- they have a number of different "newsclippings" magazines that they put out (at least one each that I know of for the four services, plus another that is circulated amongst the ~30,000 people who work in the Pentagon). My God, I just had a thought -- since copyright is inherent upon the creation of the work, then all those morons that copy the entire e-mail message and then add a simple one-line response at the top or bottom are in violation of copyright law. You know, this *must* be a much more serious violation of copyright law than what we saw from Annelise, since there are far, far more people doing it. If you want to continue your Jihad, I suggest that you start with them. > Possibly less people will read the original document. The readership will > decline, the company will lose money, the paper cuts back writers, the > original author loses further assignments, Boston goes into a economic > recession, a new tax ... How many people would have been likely to read an article about FreeBSD or Open Source in the Boston Globe? Now, how many people know that the Boston Globe has carried one interesting article on this subject, and may now be inclined to keep a closer watch on them to see if they come up with anything else? No, I'm sorry. Not a single one of your arguments has held any water. Myself, when I find an article like this, I'll copy the first paragraph or two, and then include a link to the entire thing online. But in no way at all do I find myself compelled to do so for copyright reasons. No, I do it because I know that not everyone who receives my message will want to read the article in question, and I don't want to excessively annoy those who don't. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 10:55:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABF037B416 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBEIqEi22199; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:52:14 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C16C7B1.1151FCC5@mindspring.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <01121010202100.00345@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <20011211144049.A14693@acidpit.org> <20011211214943.A4489@tisys.org> <3C16C7B1.1151FCC5@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:35:11 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Nils Holland From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: EzBSD aint for me! Was: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Robert Hough , Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:57 PM -0800 on 2001/12/11, Terry Lambert wrote: > It was, I think, the epitome of beauty and elegance in industrial > design for human factors: its use was obvious and unambiguous... > you walked up, put your head inside the "wings", and pressed the big > yellow button. > > Apparently, these units have been deployed in a number of European > countries for road-side assistance. Really? Do you know which ones? In my travels throughout Belgium and the Netherlands, and what travelling I've done in the UK, Germany, France, and Italy, I have never seen anything I recall that looked remotely like what you describe. If they're over here somewhere, I'd like very much to see them so that I can get a feel for the sort of thing you're talking about. > So, respectfully, I will have to disagree with you, and claim that > computers *can* be made easy to use, but to do it requires will and > determination. My view is that you have to ask the question as for whom it is easy to use. Something that is easy for me to use may be exceptionally difficult for you, and vice-versa. Making something easy for an expert to use may directly conflict with its ease-of-use for a novice (and vice-versa). -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 10:57: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7571137B416; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBEIqOi22310; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:52:25 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:54:45 +0100 To: Hiten Pandya , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Cc: grog@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:35 AM -0800 on 2001/12/13, Hiten Pandya wrote: > It is better to port JFS then re-inventing the wheel, > and we will get a lot of help from outsiders. True, but we already know what IBM's answer will be to this question. Therefore, it makes little sense to waste our time asking it. IMO, we'd be better off asking SGI (and their former employees) about XFS. Or just come up with our own journaling filesystem that is totally independant of the IBM code (satisfies the same design goals at the highest level, but below that point shares no specifications or implementation details). Indeed, I think we could safely argue that softupdates is a long ways towards this goal as it is, and that in many ways it is superior. Combine that with dirprefs and dirhash, and I see very little reason to want JFS. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 11:32:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09D737B419 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16Ey3n-0000H2-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:31:55 -0800 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:31:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 4:16 PM -0800 on 2001/12/13, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > >> (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in > >> relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and > > > > The entire article was copied. > > Was the entire magazine, paper, or website copied? No, just a > single article. Which is still wrong. > Do you know how many different "clippings" papers/magazines there > are in the world, where they literally copy hundreds and hundreds of > entire articles from a variety of sources, and then put that together > and send that out to hundreds or thousands (or even millions) of > people around the world? Name one that does this legally. (And then why?) The Associated Press, New York Times, and various other wire services sell their individual articles. (How could they make money if anyone could copy non-timely articles for free?) How could a BSD advocate who understands the commercial value of a copyright accept the republishing of articles without permission? > Surely they're not all in violation of copyright laws. I mean, > no University, College, or high school could survive if they weren't. As far as I know, no university or school would knowingly copy different articles from different places without seeking permission first and compile them together and redistribute it outside of use for a class at the school. I teach for a college. Before every quarter, I am given a 12-page packet covering the school's copyright policy and procedures. I know other schools have similar policies/guidelines. This document provides examples that the school believes is acceptable for teachers for this class preparations: - may make a single copy of a newspaper article for own scholarly research or for teaching a class. - may make one copy per pupil of a complete article of less than 2,500 words for classroom use as long as: - include the notice of copyright; - absolutely don't have the time to wait for permission; - use the material for only one course in one school; - no more than 9 instances of multiple copies for one course during one term. - then it says may make limitless copies of newspapers for teaching effectiveness. (Strange that this contradicts the "single copy" mentioned above.) > Heck, the publications departments at most companies couldn't > survive, and you'd put the entire US DoD out of work, too -- they I know that several publications departments, such as T. Rowe Price's magazine, Costco's magazine, Hewlett-Packard's magazine, even university magazines, would never republish some other newspaper or magazine article without seeking permission first. > have a number of different "newsclippings" magazines that they put > out (at least one each that I know of for the four services, plus > another that is circulated amongst the ~30,000 people who work in the > Pentagon). I do know that many magazines require you to purchase the clippings from them if you want to reuse them. (Maybe this is a marketing ploy?) > My God, I just had a thought -- since copyright is inherent upon > the creation of the work, then all those morons that copy the entire > e-mail message and then add a simple one-line response at the top or > bottom are in violation of copyright law. You do not believe that. > You know, this *must* be a much more serious violation of > copyright law than what we saw from Annelise, since there are far, > far more people doing it. If you want to continue your Jihad, I > suggest that you start with them. I have had to contact several websites to request that they do not verbatim copy entire articles from online magazines that I edit. As an example, as far as I know, there are no websites that legally copy in entirety single articles from other websites and republish them. > How many people would have been likely to read an article about > FreeBSD or Open Source in the Boston Globe? Now, how many people > know that the Boston Globe has carried one interesting article on > this subject, and may now be inclined to keep a closer watch on them > to see if they come up with anything else? This was already mentioned by someone else. It has nothing to do with this discussion. > No, I'm sorry. Not a single one of your arguments has held any water. Some agree with; some don't. Again, my experiences are probably different than yours. I studied this in several classes while earning my journalism degree; I have discussed this in great detail during my professional work as a journalist; and in college teaching I am continuously warned about "fair use" and copyright laws. > Myself, when I find an article like this, I'll copy the first > paragraph or two, and then include a link to the entire thing online. That seems "fair". > But in no way at all do I find myself compelled to do so for > copyright reasons. No, I do it because I know that not everyone who > receives my message will want to read the article in question, and I > don't want to excessively annoy those who don't. That seems polite. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 11:35: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web21103.mail.yahoo.com (web21103.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 48F4437B421 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:34:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011214193441.87277.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.4.34.175] by web21103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:34:41 PST Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:34:41 -0800 (PST) From: Hiten Pandya Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, grog@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BK> So, why should we care about JFS? hi, We would care about JFS (i and others with my type of thinking system) because as it has already been discussed for a great length. One cannot judge the negativity of an IBM product or any other big company's product. For argument's sake; Even though FreeBSD is better than AIX (much better), and also free, why do corporates and goverment agencies tend to choose IBM and Sun based products more than FreeBSD. In Brief. The point is, forgive my bluntness, but porting JFS to FreeBSD, might give companies with Terabytes of information on these file system to switch to FreeBSD for mission-critical purposes, even when they know that JFS is under the influence of the GPL License. (no offense), but if these kind of things are to be taken religiously (GPL vs. BSD License), than it would render this whole thread completely illogical, which i have always tried to prevent. For me, any software that comes under agreeable licensing, i.e. GPL and BSD License, MIT License etc. and also has good quality, e.g. GCC, binutils, gnuplot and also other BSD License software is good enough for me or for any other company i would say. BTW: I have found a host, 'Kevin Golding' in United Kingdom has agreed to provide me the web-space sooner-later. I have also agreed up with my friend, who will provide the domain name which will be mapped to kevin's ip address. [NOTE] If you or any other member of the FreeBSD Project or anyother developer has an understanding of JFS and would like to join the JFS4BSD Project, please send an email to hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org (me), with your name and email address, and your area of expertise if possible. Thanks, =Hiten = ===== -Hiten, Thank You, Yours Sincerely, Hiten Pandya, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 11:38:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A848A37B41A; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 8B0FC3EC5; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87042BAA5; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:39:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:39:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , , , , Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011214141902.F69086-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > I still don't understand why JFS has any interest over >softupdates. Indeed, the papers I've read seem to indicate that, at >best, JFS may approach the kind of speed possible with softupdates, >and they both allow you to re/boot quickly and with mount times that >do not include lengthy fsck. The major advantage people see to a journaling file system is that of the lack of fsck on boot. This is crucial to large filesystems. Perhaps when Softupdates on FFS gets to the point where snapshots and background fsck are fully implemented and well tested and maybe even enabled by default then people will stop asking for a journaling file system. I don't know very much about JFS, but I do know that the design of XFS offers some cool features like dynamic inode creation. One would also think the ability to possibly relink rm'd files by rolling back journal transactions would be a potentially useful feature on a filesystem being used on the average user's desk. There are lots of cool things you can do with a journal. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 11:42:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C2437B41A; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18292; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:40:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214123703.02ad7290@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:40:50 -0700 To: Hiten Pandya , Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011214193441.87277.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:34 PM 12/14/2001, Hiten Pandya wrote: >For me, any software that comes under >agreeable licensing, i.e. GPL and BSD License, MIT >License etc. and also has good quality, e.g. GCC, >binutils, gnuplot and also other BSD License software >is good enough for me or for any other company i would >say. The GPL is not "agreeable." It is anti-business and anti-programmer and should not be tolerated in any way, shape, or form in a BSD source tree. It would be far better to build on softupdates, which is an exceptionally powerful technology that's unique to BSD. Even if journaling is desired, a technology based on softupdates would minimize data loss and reduce the degree to which the state of the file system had to be rolled back after a crash. In short, perhaps the next step should be "firmupdates." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 11:49:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slackerbsd.org (cn488734-a.wall1.pa.home.com [65.9.18.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1485737B41A for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14527 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Dec 2001 19:49:10 -0000 From: carl@slackerbsd.org Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:49:09 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Hiten Pandya , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Message-ID: <20011214194909.GA2943@Carbon.SlackerBSD.ORG> Reply-To: Carl Schmidt References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214123703.02ad7290@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214123703.02ad7290@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:40:50PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:34 PM 12/14/2001, Hiten Pandya wrote: > > >For me, any software that comes under > >agreeable licensing, i.e. GPL and BSD License, MIT > >License etc. and also has good quality, e.g. GCC, > >binutils, gnuplot and also other BSD License software > >is good enough for me or for any other company i would > >say. > > The GPL is not "agreeable." It is anti-business and > anti-programmer and should not be tolerated in any > way, shape, or form in a BSD source tree. > > It would be far better to build on softupdates, which > is an exceptionally powerful technology that's unique > to BSD. > > Even if journaling is desired, a technology based on > softupdates would minimize data loss and reduce > the degree to which the state of the file system had > to be rolled back after a crash. > > In short, perhaps the next step should be "firmupdates." > > --Brett > This has been beat to death over and over but people still do not understand that softupdates will not minimize data loss. It guarantees metadata to be written, not `normal' data. The quick intro to softupdates on Kirk McKusick's site clearly states this fact: http://www.mckusick.com/softdep/. Softupdates will delay writing of data which is why you get the speed increase but if you pull the plug on the machine in the middle of something trying to write to the disk you may lose the data it was trying to write. It is very simple to prove by doing it. Try doing something like extracting a tarball and powering the machine off in the middle of it then see what fsck says about the unclaimed blocks and whatnot. -- Carl Schmidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 11:51:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7A237B405; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBEJoVt77438; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:50:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:50:31 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: To: Hiten Pandya Cc: Brad Knowles , , , Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <20011214193441.87277.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011214114309.S16958-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Hiten Pandya wrote: > For argument's sake; Even though FreeBSD is better > than > AIX (much better), and also free, why do corporates > and > goverment agencies tend to choose IBM and Sun based > products more than FreeBSD. generally, this is because of VAR support, and the support contracts. the real issue with FreeBSD in that kind of use is the lack of accountability (who can they, the government agency, blame if something goes wrong with the OS? who can they turn to if it breaks in a new, and novel way?). this alone seems to be the issue. there were a few exceptions to this rule (for example: LBL/LLNLs use of Linux and BSD) but they really are the exception. this has even held true for a while with BSD/OS, where it was chosen over the technologically superior FreeBSD in a few installations i know of. just because of the support contract. > In Brief. The point is, forgive my bluntness, but > porting JFS to FreeBSD, might give companies with > Terabytes of information on these file system to > switch to FreeBSD for mission-critical purposes, > even when they know that JFS is under the influence > of the GPL License. the issue really isn't being able to move those terabytes of data. i think the issue is more complex than this. on teh same note, just because freebsd would have JFS support, does not mean that we'll gain more of a following. JFS won't make migration from AIX or any other OS faster or easier. migration is *never* as easy as you expect it to be. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 11:56:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h132-197-179-27.gte.com (h132-197-179-27.gte.com [132.197.179.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCBA837B61D for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ak03@localhost) by h132-197-179-27.gte.com (8.11.6/8.11.4) id fBEJuU383054; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:56:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ak03) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.1 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011214194909.GA2943@Carbon.SlackerBSD.ORG> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:56:29 -0500 (EST) Organization: Verizon Laboratories Inc. From: "Alexander N. Kabaev" To: carl@slackerbsd.org Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org JFS and XFS and ReiserFS and Ext3 will not minimize data loss either, AFAIK. All of them keep journal for metadata updates only. What is your point? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 11:57:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slackerbsd.org (cn488734-a.wall1.pa.home.com [65.9.18.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AC4BC37B405 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15558 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Dec 2001 19:57:14 -0000 From: carl@slackerbsd.org Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:57:14 -0500 To: "Alexander N. Kabaev" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD Message-ID: <20011214195714.GA14820@Carbon.SlackerBSD.ORG> Reply-To: Carl Schmidt References: <20011214194909.GA2943@Carbon.SlackerBSD.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:56:29PM -0500, Alexander N. Kabaev wrote: > > JFS and XFS and ReiserFS and Ext3 will not minimize data loss either, > AFAIK. All of them keep journal for metadata updates only. What is your > point? My point is being correct when talking about what softupdates actually does and does not do. That is all. -- Carl Schmidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 11:58:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web21110.mail.yahoo.com (web21110.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 593E137B41A for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:58:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011214195844.56774.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.4.34.175] by web21110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:58:44 PST Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:58:44 -0800 (PST) From: Hiten Pandya Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, grog@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214123703.02ad7290@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Brett Glass wrote: > The GPL is not "agreeable." It is anti-business and > anti-programmer and should not be tolerated in any > way, shape, or form in a BSD source tree. > > It would be far better to build on softupdates, > which is an exceptionally powerful technology that's > unique to BSD. > Even if journaling is desired, a technology based on > softupdates would minimize data loss and reduce > the degree to which the state of the file system had > to be rolled back after a crash In short, perhaps the next step should be "firmupdates." I would (think about agreeing) with (you/other) if: - You, or other large number of developers were to help me out in squeezing in perf. and journaling capabilities into the current "SOFTUPDATES" code, and also help me in adding journaling capabilities and other major features. - Help me do better job than (no offence) Kirk McKusick in optimising the FFS/UFS file system which has a (undoubtably) large and mature codebase of over around 20 years. I am not just planning to porting JFS because i think that the buzzword "Journaling File System" sounds good to me, but its also about getting a major change into the 5.0 Release of FreeBSD, and also that it is a small codebase of nothing more than 2000 lines or so. If people are/were really interested in adding journaling capabilties to UFS/FFS, no offense, why isn't there a project in the FreeBSD Projects list for this or elsewhere on the internet. Success comes at a hard price, and the hard price for this case is to first port the FS, and then see what peoples and corporates reactions are to this. Thanks, =Hiten = ===== -Hiten, Thank You, Yours Sincerely, Hiten Pandya, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 12: 0:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6ED7F37B417 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 91938 invoked by uid 100); 14 Dec 2001 20:00:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15386.23145.369172.740937@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:00:41 -0600 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? In-Reply-To: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > We hear so often that high-end Unix worstations are used for advanced > scientific applications. The biggest of the big iron usually goes to > weather/finance forecasting and especially nuclear research. I've done work on weather forcasting and petroleum engineering spill analysis. Both are very cpu intensive, and have some areas of overlap. > Who writes these apps? Specialized software companies or in-house > developers? Are they batch-based, command line apps or GUI driven? Most of the work was done "in-house", for some definition of "in-house". It wasn't unusual for outside consultants to be hired for things, including programmers. NCAR provides packages of FORTRAN routines that are useful in such work, which is the closest thing I ever saw to a specialized software company. One of the packages I worked on that was developed for in-house use was eventually marketed. As CPU speed has increased over the decades, the packages have moved from batch-based to command line apps. As the understanding of the problems has increased, GUI interfaces have been added to some of them. One thing you might want to do is look through some of the Python conference proceedings. A number of groups have taken their old FORTRAN numerical processing subroutine packages and wrapped them in python objects, which then let the scientists work with them in an interactive environment that includes the ability to generate graphics from them. Various forms of molecular modeling tools are the things that stick in my mind. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 12: 2:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658E037B419 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 74B093EBF; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71073BAA5; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:03:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:03:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: j mckitrick Cc: Subject: Re: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? In-Reply-To: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <20011214135051.Q69086-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, j mckitrick wrote: >We hear so often that high-end Unix worstations are used for advanced >scientific applications. The biggest of the big iron usually goes to >weather/finance forecasting and especially nuclear research. > >Who writes these apps? Specialized software companies or in-house >developers? Are they batch-based, command line apps or GUI driven? Here in the VU Center for Structural Biology[0] we use a mix of commerically developed and academically developed codes and applications. A great deal of the codes used in scientific computation are developed by the scientists themselves. It's always a treat when a grad student walks down to my office and asks to borrow a copy of K&R because she's been tasked with working on some computational problems. Scientists are not afraid of learning a little computer science on their way to finding solutions to their problems. One of the major codes we use for molecular dynamics simulation and structure refinement is a package called Amber[1] developed at UCSF by computational biochemists. This package sucks up most of our cycles here. It sells for peanuts to other academic institutions, and goes for big bucks if a commerical entity like a pharmaceutical company wants to use it. Amber is a batch-based app which we run on Beowulf clusters using Myrinet interconnects (low latency IPC is crucial to Amber performance and scaling) and big SGI NUMA boxes. We also make quite a bit of use of Insight, a commercially developed and marketed application sold by Accelrys[2]. This is an interactive GUI app which does visualization and also runs some structure calculation codes. It's an IRIX application and is mostly run on our O2s and Octanes. For visualization of complex biomolecules scientists here often use stereoscopic glasses which in combination with a toggle in the X app will display the molecules three dimensionally. We also make use of dino, moe, grasp, molmol, rasmol, curves, molscript, spdbv, msms, and numerous other packages to do NMR structure refinement and the like. The point being, there are every imaginable flavor of application in use, some open source, some closed, some commercial, some academic, some written in C/X/Motif, others written in f77, some are interactive, others are batch-based. The challenge to me and my colleagues is keeping this extremely heterogenous environment with one consistent, documented user interface. Most scientists don't have time to learn a different way of working every time they sit down in front of a new type of machine. They have enough to tackle just learning to use the new piece of anaylsis software. HTH. [0] - http://structbio.vanderbilt.edu [1] - http://www.amber.ucsf.edu/amber/ [2] - http://www.accelrys.com/ Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 12: 4:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web21101.mail.yahoo.com (web21101.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9026E37B419 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:04:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011214200410.74625.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.4.34.175] by web21101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:04:10 PST Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:04:10 -0800 (PST) From: Hiten Pandya Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, grog@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20011214114309.S16958-100000@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > on teh same note, just because freebsd would have > JFS support, does not > mean that we'll gain more of a following. JFS won't > make migration from > AIX or any other OS faster or easier. migration is > *never* as easy as you > expect it to be. Lets say that you are right about this, or lets just say you are, than why would companies like register.com use Linux for suppose in their production for their internet business. =Hiten = ===== -Hiten, Thank You, Yours Sincerely, Hiten Pandya, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 12:17:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slackerbsd.org (cn488734-a.wall1.pa.home.com [65.9.18.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A75E737B405 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17952 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Dec 2001 20:17:35 -0000 From: carl@slackerbsd.org Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:17:35 -0500 To: Hiten Pandya Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Message-ID: <20011214201735.GB14820@Carbon.SlackerBSD.ORG> Reply-To: Carl Schmidt References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214123703.02ad7290@localhost> <20011214195844.56774.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011214195844.56774.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:58:44AM -0800, Hiten Pandya wrote: > > --- Brett Glass wrote: > > The GPL is not "agreeable." It is anti-business and > > anti-programmer and should not be tolerated in any > > way, shape, or form in a BSD source tree. > > > > It would be far better to build on softupdates, > > which is an exceptionally powerful technology that's > > unique to BSD. > > > Even if journaling is desired, a technology based on > > softupdates would minimize data loss and reduce > > the degree to which the state of the file system had > > to be rolled back after a crash In short, perhaps > the > next step should be "firmupdates." > > I would (think about agreeing) with (you/other) if: > > - You, or other large number of developers were to > help > me out in squeezing in perf. and journaling > capabilities into the current "SOFTUPDATES" code, and > also help me in adding journaling capabilities and > other major features. Softupdates does not need journaling, that would be somewhat redundant. As far as performance goes have you actually used softupdates compared to async mounted or even sync mounted ffs partitions? What other major features are you referring to? > > - Help me do better job than (no offence) Kirk > McKusick > in optimising the FFS/UFS file system which has a > (undoubtably) large and mature codebase of over around > 20 years. It would probably be better for you to point out specifically what it is you think needs to be optimized. The less vague you are in your wishes the better. Kirk has many years of experience under his belt and probably understands the FS code better than most people interested in this topic. Kirk would be one of your best allies in a task like this but you'd probably have to prove to him that you are capable in many aspects (code writing, motivation, etc.) and then you'd have to hope that he is even interested in such a task. That is up to you to ask him though. > > I am not just planning to porting JFS because i think > that the buzzword "Journaling File System" sounds good > to me, but its also about getting a major change into > the 5.0 Release of FreeBSD, and also that it is a > small codebase of nothing more than 2000 lines or so. You have to start coding now and show what you have started on to show that you are really going to follow through. I know this because I have promised people in the past that I would do something and never did it and I understand why they did not trust me to keep my word afterwards. It happens frequently with many people so you may run into a similar problem if you don't start showing some code. > > If people are/were really interested in adding > journaling capabilties to UFS/FFS, no offense, > why isn't there a project in the FreeBSD Projects > list for this or elsewhere on the internet. Because I can't imagine that many people are actually interested in it. There are a few people that want JFS but can't do it and expect the developers to do it for them when the developers have their own projects to work on. I am not a developer but I understand how it works, generally. I am merely trying to offer some advice. -- Carl Schmidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 12:30:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB39937B416; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBEKTTt77769; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:29:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:29:29 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: To: Hiten Pandya Cc: , , Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <20011214200410.74625.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011214121727.A16958-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Hiten Pandya wrote: > Lets say that you are right about this, or lets just > say you are, than why would companies like > register.com > use Linux for suppose in their production for their > internet business. have you asked them how the move went? while mild services migration (DNS, e-mail, etc) is fairly painless (i shouldn't have been as arbitrary in saying it's never painless..) it still involves a good amount of work and planning. i very much doubt they moved to linux on all their production or test machines. i suspect that they still have a good amount of Sun/Solaris machines in the offices there, and that the major DB machines are still running Solaris. looking through their employement pages, though, i suspect that they're not really running that much linux after all. it seems to be mostly NT and Solaris. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 12:38: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F12E37B417 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB934C45E; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:38:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13610; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:38:01 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBEKauE52570; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <5ipu5i9u0w.u5i@localhost.localdomain> <3C19D716.3FC77047@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 14 Dec 2001 12:36:55 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C19D716.3FC77047@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > > Be careful there.... > > You seem to be claiming that an aggregation license of the GPL on the > works as a collection would satisfy the clause; however, at the end of > clause 2 of the GPL, it says: ... If I understood your argument there, that's a different issue which I wasn't addressing there. You seemed to be saying in the prior message that the combination of BSD-licensed code with GPL-licensed code in a derivative whould cause the BSD-licensed code to become contaminated and come under the GPL and thus the two are incompatible. I was just trying to say that BSD-licensed code is always BSD-licensed code, even if a derivative in which it appears is GPL-licensed (or even closed-source- licensed) and the two licenses are not incompatible. As for what a derivative is and what 17 USC means by "based upon" and whether distribution of a FreeBSD kernel capable of loading a GPL kernel module makes the kernel a derivative of the module, all are issues I'd rather leave for another day. > Forgive me if I don't want to be the test case for your legal theory, > particularly when it disagrees with those of the highly paid IBM > lawyers who did the 6 month due dilligence on the Whistle acquisition. I guess you're tiring of this and prefer to just make reference to higher authority, but that's better than nothing. I've saved the reference in case I ever find it important enough to research. Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 12:59:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC0037B416; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0227.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.227] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EzQU-0001c4-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:59:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1A6812.A0EFCB73@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:58:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carl Schmidt Cc: Brett Glass , Hiten Pandya , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214123703.02ad7290@localhost> <20011214194909.GA2943@Carbon.SlackerBSD.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org carl@slackerbsd.org wrote: > This has been beat to death over and over but people still do not understand > that softupdates will not minimize data loss. It guarantees metadata to be > written, not `normal' data. The quick intro to softupdates on Kirk McKusick's > site clearly states this fact: http://www.mckusick.com/softdep/. Softupdates > will delay writing of data which is why you get the speed increase but if you > pull the plug on the machine in the middle of something trying to write to the > disk you may lose the data it was trying to write. It is very simple to prove > by doing it. Try doing something like extracting a tarball and powering the > machine off in the middle of it then see what fsck says about the unclaimed > blocks and whatnot. FWIW: By default, JFS operates by journalling metadata updates, but not data updates (it can operate in one of three modes). See the article on http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/ for details. The major value in JFS is that it exports a transactiong interface to user space. Soft Updates could have done this (by implying an edge to a synthetic dependency) but didn't. This was one of my original complaints with the soft updates implementation in FreeBSD, since, as well as not exporting such an interface to user space, it did not export such an interface at the VFS boundary layer, which means that it can't span stacking modules, even if both of them support soft updates, without introducing a serialization barrier. The point in a transactioning interface to the applicaiton is that you can know whether a given transaction has been committed to stable storage, or not, and delay your response to one of many clients until it has been committed. In UNIX systems without such an interface, you usually see a lot of "fsync" or "sync" operations. JFS also fails to solve the "chicken and egg" problem of recovery following a failure (even if journalling of user data is enabled, rather than the default of just metadata). Soft updates has this problem, too. The problem is that you want to recover from a failure to a known good state. But you can't always tell the reason for the failure. If the reason is a hardware or controller error, rather than, for example, a power failure, then you need to perform a full fsck to recover. But how do you tell a power failure from some other data corruption related failure (e.g. a panic from a wild pointer that cause pending journal data to be written corrupted, or an unrecoverable meadia error of some kind). Most high end hardware handles this by logging a failure code to NVRAM, which it can then use to know whether recovery will require a full check, or not (the default value at startup is "full check required", so if it fails catastrophically, a full check is done). For power failure, this requires specific power supply capabilities to handle; it requires AC fail notification, with sufficient DC holdup to write the failure cause out, before hard stop. This is usually done via Lithium Ion batter backed RAM, since CMOS takes a lot of power and is slow to write... but I've seen CMOS used, as well. There is a semi-useful workaround, but it requires that the system is relatively quiescent, so that at the time of failure, it can be in a recoverable state. The way it works is called "soft read-only", and it's implemented by flushing all data out, and marking the FS clean, and setting a "soft read-only" flag on the in-core superblock. Then if you want to write the disk after it is in this state, it has to first mark the FS dirty, and after that is committed to stable storage, clears the soft read-only bit, and allows the write operation to continue. This is very trivial to implement; I'm very surprised that FreeBSD doesn't have it already. In any case, this doesn't help with servers where writes are common, since they are, by the intrinsic nature of servers, rarely quiescent; if, on the other hand, writes are rare (e.g. a web server serving mostly static content), then it sould be quite useful. "Soft read-only" avoids the problem, since you only have to know the failure cause in the case that you have a dirty FS; a clean FS will not have bad data on it, so you are safe to start without a fsck. It should be noted that the Soft Updates implementation, and metadata only journalling share the implementation detail that, following a soft recoverable crash (e.g. a power failure or non-FS, VM, or paging path code related panic), they can clean in the background, since the "uncleanliness" will be detectable overallocations (in soft updates, the cylinder group bitmaps will have "allocated" bits falsely set, which can be cleaned by locking access on a per cylinder group basis, and running in the background, with little or no system impact, depending on access locality while the cleaner is touching a particular cylinder group). Really, journalling and soft updates should be considered complementary technologies (e.g. soft updates prevents disk accesses, which, if your system is IDE based, will otherwise have to occur serially, and thus slow down accesses; this is not usually a problem with JFS, since "big iron" generally runs SCSI disks, anyway). But they both fail to deal adequately with unexpected hard-recovery requiring failures. As a final note, intention logging is antithetical to Soft Updates, vbut is required if you want to be able to roll interrupted transactions forward on recovery. The reason it doesn't mix very well is that it requires writing the intention to stable storage, and then making it "active" at the end of the complete transaction. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 13: 4:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD04437B405 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59352C430; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21560; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:04:36 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBEL3V052576; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:03:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Hiten Pandya Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <20011214193441.87277.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 14 Dec 2001 13:03:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011214193441.87277.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hiten Pandya writes: > In Brief. The point is, forgive my bluntness, but > porting JFS to FreeBSD, might give companies with > Terabytes of information on these file system to > switch to FreeBSD for mission-critical purposes, > even when they know that JFS is under the influence > of the GPL License. Good point, but there are few EXTRA such companies that could and would just because they prefer JFS to Softupdates (or super-softupdates), and the question remains: is it worth it? > (no offense), but if these kind of things are to be > taken religiously (GPL vs. BSD License), than it > would render this whole thread completely illogical, > which i have always tried to prevent. Religious ideas have very practical impacts which you would ignore at your peril. (Need I make references?) Don't fail to consider what a prior message said: If you develop a GPL add-on which, because of the license incompatibility problems, is awkward for people to install (eg, can't be configured at install-time or requires post-install messing with partitions), then you are likely to find that the hard work of yourself and others has only moderate pay-off. Your talents might be better directed elsewhere. (Better for others, that is. You may prefer to scratch your own itch, and you can ingore complaints about that.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 13:12: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A0137B419; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19617; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:11:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214140047.023d1800@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:11:44 -0700 To: Carl Schmidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Cc: Hiten Pandya , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011214194909.GA2943@Carbon.SlackerBSD.ORG> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214123703.02ad7290@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214123703.02ad7290@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:49 PM 12/14/2001, carl@slackerbsd.org wrote: >This has been beat to death over and over but people still do not understand >that softupdates will not minimize data loss. It guarantees metadata to be >written, not `normal' data. Actually, what it attempts to gurantee is consistency of metatata. This is an important FOUNDATION for a journaling file system, which will then have an easier time keeping the DATA consistent. The two can work hand in hand. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 13:12:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717F737B416 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0227.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.227] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EzdR-0005DY-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:12:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1A6B54.6889BEDD@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:12:52 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carl Schmidt Cc: Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214123703.02ad7290@localhost> <20011214195844.56774.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> <20011214201735.GB14820@Carbon.SlackerBSD.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org carl@slackerbsd.org wrote: > Softupdates does not need journaling, that would be somewhat redundant. > As far as performance goes have you actually used softupdates compared to > async mounted or even sync mounted ffs partitions? The technology really is complementary. > What other major features are you referring to? JFS has btree based directory structures (actually, Trie's, if you want to get technical about sparse directories after a while), which makes it very fast on the silly "create a billion files" micro benchmarks that people run to "prove" ReiserFS is better, any time someone mentions that it infringes two USL patents on DOW (Delayed Ordered Writes). On the miss case, it means that if you do things like very deep mail queue directories, etc., with sendmail (the documentation specifically discourages doing this, and shows you how to use a hashed directory structure instead), rather than traversing the entire directory, you can traverse log2(N)+1 bifurcation entries instead. On the minus side, it makes the negative caching in the directory name lookup cache much, much less valuable, in general. 8^). [ ... ] Actually, an HSM system would be much more useful for installations needing to deal with huge amounts of data, but borrowing a $120,000 tape robot to hook up to your PC is probably not going to happen... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 13:21:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web21110.mail.yahoo.com (web21110.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B282737B41C for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:21:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011214212150.69981.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.4.34.175] by web21110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:21:50 PST Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:21:50 -0800 (PST) From: Hiten Pandya Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) To: chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: brett@lariat.org, phk@freebsd.org, grog@FreeBSD.org, carl@slakerbsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214140047.023d1800@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There was a mention in this thread that XFS has dynamic inode creation. But mein freinds, JFS also has dynamic inode creation capability. Thats all, :-) thanks =Hiten = ===== -Hiten, Thank You, Yours Sincerely, Hiten Pandya, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 13:26:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A23837B419 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16EzqY-000MT8-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:26:22 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id fBELQLS15938; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:26:21 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:26:21 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? Message-ID: <20011214212621.A15890@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15386.23145.369172.740937@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <15386.23145.369172.740937@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1008792041.b89a33@mired.org on Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:00:41PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | One thing you might want to do is look through some of the Python | conference proceedings. A number of groups have taken their old | FORTRAN numerical processing subroutine packages and wrapped them in | python objects, which then let the scientists work with them in an | interactive environment that includes the ability to generate graphics | from them. Various forms of molecular modeling tools are the things | that stick in my mind. Now *that* sounds interesting. Combining the scientific computing power of FORTRAN with a practical GUI that shouldn't tax the system. Sounds pretty good. Can't wait till FORTRAN.NET comes out. ;-P jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 13:26:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D81337B41D for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0227.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.227] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16EzqW-0007H9-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:26:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1A6E7F.3CF2E0EB@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:26:23 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <5ipu5i9u0w.u5i@localhost.localdomain> <3C19D716.3FC77047@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > If I understood your argument there, that's a different issue which I > wasn't addressing there. You seemed to be saying in the prior message > that the combination of BSD-licensed code with GPL-licensed code in a > derivative whould cause the BSD-licensed code to become contaminated and > come under the GPL and thus the two are incompatible. I was just trying > to say that BSD-licensed code is always BSD-licensed code, even if a > derivative in which it appears is GPL-licensed (or even closed-source- > licensed) and the two licenses are not incompatible. The problem with this is that you are only licensed to use the GPL'ed code if you meet the terms of the GPL, which means that the code it is linked with is GPL'ed. We are not talking "mere aggregation" when we talk about linking, and unfortunately, the code in question is GPL'ed, nor LGPL'ed. Please see the following for why the distinction is important: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html It is a specific discussion of the properties of programs linked against GPL'ed code. > As for what a derivative is and what 17 USC means by "based upon" and > whether distribution of a FreeBSD kernel capable of loading a GPL kernel > module makes the kernel a derivative of the module, all are issues I'd > rather leave for another day. They disagree with your conclusion? 8^) 8^) > > Forgive me if I don't want to be the test case for your legal theory, > > particularly when it disagrees with those of the highly paid IBM > > lawyers who did the 6 month due dilligence on the Whistle acquisition. > > I guess you're tiring of this and prefer to just make reference to > higher authority, but that's better than nothing. I've saved the > reference in case I ever find it important enough to research. Please see the reference above. It is the philosophical underpinning of the GPL vs. LGPL debate, which applies to the JFS code in this case. I think perhaps you just need to read the FSF's list of "incompatible licenses": http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 13:59:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D8C37B419 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBELxNn78233; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:59:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:59:23 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: To: Hiten Pandya Cc: Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <20011214212150.69981.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011214135827.F16958-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Hiten Pandya wrote: > There was a mention in this thread that XFS has > dynamic inode creation. But mein freinds, JFS also > has dynamic inode creation capability. > > Thats all, :-) just out of curiosity, is there any particular reason you prefer JFS over XFS? i don't recall seeing any posting on the [dis/ad]vantages of either. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 14:11:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA2237B417 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413D3C425; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07201; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:11:11 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBEMA6k52600; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? References: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 14 Dec 2001 14:10:06 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: Lines: 33 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > We hear so often that high-end Unix worstations are used for advanced > scientific applications. The biggest of the big iron usually goes to > weather/finance forecasting and especially nuclear research. > > Who writes these apps? Specialized software companies or in-house > developers? Are they batch-based, command line apps or GUI driven? Most of it is part of a simulation of some sort. Simulations of the real world, simulation of proposed parts for a new real world, and even similation of past worlds in a some cases (eg, tail falling off). There are innumerable things to simulate, and better simulations allow reductions of risk and reductions of wasteful "margins" on designs. Simulations involve approximations and short-cuts throughout and more computing power is always welcome and soon taken advantage of when made available. It's great fun, involving science, math, and often experimentation or just experimental results for qualifying the simulations. It's done by both scientists and engineers and sometimes technicians. Mostly in-house buy people who get almost all of their expertise on the job, but there are also many small companies who specialize in some simulation niche. I'd guess that most are started from a command line, most likely with no arguments, being config-file or even just new source-code driven. But there's lots of scientific coding in embedded or GUI software like pilot-training simulators (full-sized or PC-based), warfare simulators and mission planning systems, and some medical equipment like body scanners and laser surgery equipment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 16: 2:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB0737B405; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 327D9786E4; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:32:10 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:32:10 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011215103210.G85108@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 20:30:53 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> 4. It is possible to port JFS2 to FreeBSD without violating any >> license, either via loophole or otherwise. >> >> In this connection, I would like to point out an issue with the >> LGPL which I personally think is sailing close to the wind: I >> can't see any real license distinction between linking GPL'd code >> into the kernel and loading the module either during the boot or >> afterwards. In the first case, the code is statically linked, in >> the latter it's dynamically linked. In each case, the result is >> the same. That's not important, though, because RMS does think >> there's a difference (or he's prepared to pretend there's one, and >> he's prepared to sanction use in this form). > > My understanding is that the JFS code is GPL'ed, not LGPL'ed. Correct. But there's this funny agreement that loading modules falls under the LGPL, not the GPL. I'll leave it to Linux people to explain; it's used to allow loading proprietary modules into the Linux kernel. The implication appears to be that, since it's not linked with the kernel, it's not a derivative work. I think it's a workaround for an overly restrictive license. On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 23:49:37 -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> The loader might have to be GPL'd. > > If the loader, then the kernel too. No, of course not. That would imply that anything you run under the kernel also has to be GPLd. The loader and kernel are two very different beasts. You can load FreeBSD with the Linux loader. Does that make FreeBSD GPLd? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 16:39:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AA837B419; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:39:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 940F2786E3; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:09:24 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:09:24 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, phk@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011215110924.K85108@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3C19CAD3.A5685BEF@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C19CAD3.A5685BEF@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 14 December 2001 at 9:48:03 +0000, Hiten Pandya wrote: >> (Greg)The loader might have to be GPL'd. > > I dont think so, we can use that LILO loader which is also GPL'ed > under the src/sys/boot tree. I will make a seperate article > when the file system is ready saying what to do if people wanted > to use JFS in their environments. I don't think LILO understands JFS. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 16:51: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web21102.mail.yahoo.com (web21102.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D16737B41B for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:51:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011215005100.80965.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.4.34.175] by web21102.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:51:00 PST Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:51:00 -0800 (PST) From: Hiten Pandya Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, tlambert2@mindspring.com, phk@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20011215110924.K85108@monorchid.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org it doesn't as of yet, but it might do later, (hiten says: me and my enthusiasm in FreeBSD!) =Hiten = --- Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 14 December 2001 at 9:48:03 +0000, Hiten > Pandya wrote: > >> (Greg)The loader might have to be GPL'd. > > > > I dont think so, we can use that LILO loader which > is also GPL'ed > > under the src/sys/boot tree. I will make a > seperate article > > when the file system is ready saying what to do if > people wanted > > to use JFS in their environments. > > I don't think LILO understands JFS. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers ===== -Hiten, Thank You, Yours Sincerely, Hiten Pandya, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 16:55:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A76337B416 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 348B0786E4; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:25:39 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:25:39 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Hiten Pandya , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Message-ID: <20011215112539.L85108@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 14 December 2001 at 16:54:45 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:35 AM -0800 on 2001/12/13, Hiten Pandya wrote: > >> It is better to port JFS then re-inventing the wheel, >> and we will get a lot of help from outsiders. > > True, but we already know what IBM's answer will be to this > question. Do we? Do we agree? Then why the following sentence? > Therefore, it makes little sense to waste our time asking it. Sure, just use it. > IMO, we'd be better off asking SGI (and their former employees) > about XFS. Or just come up with our own journaling filesystem that > is totally independant of the IBM code (satisfies the same design > goals at the highest level, but below that point shares no > specifications or implementation details). "Reinvent the wheel". > Indeed, I think we could safely argue that softupdates is a > long ways towards this goal as it is, and that in many ways it is > superior. Combine that with dirprefs and dirhash, and I see very > little reason to want JFS. Indeed. One of the reasons I'd like to see a JFS port is to be able to compare it with the current UFS. I really wouldn't like to bet on which one came out on top. But so far, we only have theoretical papers to base our opinions on. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 16:59: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13C437B405; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22866; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:58:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:58:44 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <20011215103210.G85108@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:02 PM 12/14/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >Correct. But there's this funny agreement that loading modules falls >under the LGPL, not the GPL. Linux is licensed under a variant of the GPL that allows the linking of modules and libraries that are not GPLed. This does not apply at all to this case, in which the module WOULD be GPLed. There should NEVER be any GPLed kernel module for FreeBSD. As far as I'm concerned, IBM wrote off any chance of having JFS ported to anything other than Linux when it GPLed it. It was a horrible decision. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 17: 8:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE03637B405; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:08:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id EBDF6786E4; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:38:36 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 11:38:36 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011215113836.O85108@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 14 December 2001 at 17:58:44 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:02 PM 12/14/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Correct. But there's this funny agreement that loading modules falls >> under the LGPL, not the GPL. > > Linux is licensed under a variant of the GPL that allows the linking > of modules and libraries that are not GPLed. This does not apply at > all to this case, in which the module WOULD be GPLed. It's a similar situation. Whom should I ask for confirmation? > There should NEVER be any GPLed kernel module for FreeBSD. As far as > I'm concerned, IBM wrote off any chance of having JFS ported to > anything other than Linux when it GPLed it. It was a horrible > decision. We have GPLd kernel modules now. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 17:10:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79D337B41B for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:10:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from wing6.herald.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.0.230] ident=exim) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16F3LK-0006Nh-04; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:10:22 +0000 Received: from httpd by wing6.herald.ox.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.32 #1) id 16F3LK-00086x-00; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:10:22 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.103 (Entity 4.115) From: George Reid Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:10:22 +0000 (GMT) To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: hitmaster2k@yahoo.com Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > - Help me do better job than (no offence) Kirk > McKusick in optimising the FFS/UFS file system which has a > (undoubtably) large and mature codebase of over around > 20 years. Kirk has a doctorate and several other degrees. He has written several books and articles on filesystem design and implemenation. You are, by your own admission, an "intermediate C programmer" with no knowledge of kernel internals. So far, we've all seen lots of talk on your part and no code. Write some code, then talk. -- George C A Reid Tel: (08701) 200870 Ext. 26654 FreeBSD Committer/Developer greid@FreeBSD.org Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 17:26:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [64.0.106.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F6C37B419; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA90549; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:26:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:26:35 -0500 (EST) From: To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brad Knowles , Hiten Pandya , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <20011215112539.L85108@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: [...snip...] > > IMO, we'd be better off asking SGI (and their former employees) > > about XFS. Or just come up with our own journaling filesystem that > > is totally independant of the IBM code (satisfies the same design > > goals at the highest level, but below that point shares no > > specifications or implementation details). > > "Reinvent the wheel". Sure. Why not? Linux has been doing it since day one. The entire Linux OS is a "revinention of the wheel". To hell with building on the foundation of others. > > Indeed, I think we could safely argue that softupdates is a > > long ways towards this goal as it is, and that in many ways it is > > superior. Combine that with dirprefs and dirhash, and I see very > > little reason to want JFS. > > Indeed. One of the reasons I'd like to see a JFS port is to be able > to compare it with the current UFS. I really wouldn't like to bet on > which one came out on top. But so far, we only have theoretical > papers to base our opinions on. Yes doing so would be nice. For that exact reason. To see some real numbers and how they stack up. However i'm with brad it would be better considering the nature of the GPL on JFS, to get co-operation from SGI. Maybe they would consider another point of view in licensing their XFS to the BSD folks. Then again maybe not. I personally do not want anymore GPL code then we have in the tree. Call me a zealot, call me a religious freak i dont care. I have serious issues with that licesne. And I know im not the only one. So rather then waste tiem arguing that a GPL'ed FS can be imported and toss up another bikeshed about the loader being contaminated etc.. Why don't we talk to other vendors of journaling file systems that would perhaps give us and those wanting to port a JFS to FreeBSD source under a license that the majority of BSD users and developers will approve of. Everytime this issue comes up its the same friggin thing. The GPL is a deal killer. Period. I know your stance on the GPL greg. And I respect it. But I dont think the vast majority of BSD users or developers share it. This is like the 5th time this issue has come up about an JFS on FreeBSD. And again I think the only solution that is even going to remotely fly is to talk to vendors about getting source under a BSD like license. I think with the right people at SGI some sane discussions could take place. I would never have thought Intel would of budged just a minute ammount on their doco policy but they did just a little. And SGI is by far more friendly to OS then Intel. Otherwise if no one cares to release a JFS under a BSD like license, then the best and I think most natural solution is to just work on FFS to make it the best FS possible. Which is what Kirk is doing. And we should all feel lucky that Kirk still has an interest in improving FFS and that he helps out. I would be happy to make contact with SGI and try to get some things rolling if we ever come to a conclusion about JFS support. ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (816) 464-7780 | Sr. Unix Administrator Work: chris.watson@twa.com | Trans World Airlines, Kansas City, MO Home: scanner@jurai.net | http://www.twa.com ============================================================================= WINDOWS: All our IP belongs to us. GNU/LINUX: Touch our IP, and your IP belongs to us. BSD: Here's our IP, just use it. ============================================================================= ICQ: 20016186 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 17:52: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EAA737B405 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:52:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id CF5D6786E3; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:21:58 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:21:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: scanner@jurai.net Cc: Brad Knowles , Hiten Pandya , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Message-ID: <20011215122158.A87600@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011215112539.L85108@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 14 December 2001 at 20:26:35 -0500, scanner@jurai.net wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > [...snip...] > >>> IMO, we'd be better off asking SGI (and their former employees) >>> about XFS. Or just come up with our own journaling filesystem that >>> is totally independant of the IBM code (satisfies the same design >>> goals at the highest level, but below that point shares no >>> specifications or implementation details). >> >> "Reinvent the wheel". > > Sure. Why not? Linux has been doing it since day one. The entire Linux OS > is a "revinention of the wheel". To hell with building on the foundation > of others. > >>> Indeed, I think we could safely argue that softupdates is a >>> long ways towards this goal as it is, and that in many ways it is >>> superior. Combine that with dirprefs and dirhash, and I see very >>> little reason to want JFS. >> >> Indeed. One of the reasons I'd like to see a JFS port is to be able >> to compare it with the current UFS. I really wouldn't like to bet on >> which one came out on top. But so far, we only have theoretical >> papers to base our opinions on. > > Yes doing so would be nice. For that exact reason. To see some real > numbers and how they stack up. However i'm with brad it would be better > considering the nature of the GPL on JFS, to get co-operation from > SGI. Maybe they would consider another point of view in licensing their > XFS to the BSD folks. Then again maybe not. I'd bet on them not doing it. > And again I think the only solution that is even going to remotely > fly is to talk to vendors about getting source under a BSD like > license. I think with the right people at SGI some sane discussions > could take place. Feel free to go ahead. But I really don't think that you'll have much success. Don't get me wrong, I think that XFS has a lot of advantages too. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 18:30:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FDFB37B405 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 18:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16F4ad-0000Y5-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 18:30:15 -0800 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 18:30:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3C196B25.5A4FE70B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The entire article was copied. > > > > "The greater the amount of copyrighted work used, the less likely that a > > court will characterize the use as fair. The use of an entire copyright > > work is almost never fair." (The AP Stylebook and Libel Manual, 1992.) > > The entire paper was not. I must mention that individual articles for newspapers (and from magazines) do have value by themselves. Often, articles (including newspapers) are written by freelancers that retain the rights to republish -- and they do. So by even using one article and republishing, you could be dimishing the value of that one single article. (Many freelancers' entire livelihood is based on trying to republish and republish the same articles again and again.) Frequently, the articles are purchased as part of a wire service -- they had value individually -- and the same article could be republished by other medium later. So again, a single article separate from one newspaper has value (and could lose its value if republished by others). And, newspapers often provide their articles back to wire services (or they run their own article service). An individual article has value. Using the BSD media as a perspective: the editors for each main website (including mine) do a lot of work soliciting for contributed articles, spend a lot of money for freelanced articles (over the past couple years, I have spent over $4,000 for BSD-related articles) and/or other fees, and spend a lot of time editing and publishing articles. Personally, I'd find it unethical and illegal if someone copied verbatim one of my website's articles and republished into a wide public forum without permission. I can assume that the other BSD media websites editors (and professional freelancers) wouldn't like their articles republished (without permission), since it may stop traffic to their site and lessens the value of the article that could have been sold elsewhere (like in some print media). Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ p.s. I must mention when I started working at my website, my manager told me to use announcements from -announce mailing lists verbatim -- since he already did it at other sites and other editors from other sites also do that. I did copy announcements for about a year. Last year, I started asking the posters for permission before republishing their mailing list postings. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 22: 9: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5776B37B417; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16F7zu-0001SQ-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:08:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1AE8E5.ED0E7BA7@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:08:37 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <20011215103210.G85108@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > Correct. But there's this funny agreement that loading modules falls > under the LGPL, not the GPL. I'll leave it to Linux people to > explain; it's used to allow loading proprietary modules into the Linux > kernel. The implication appears to be that, since it's not linked > with the kernel, it's not a derivative work. I think it's a > workaround for an overly restrictive license. I'm well aware of this "funny agreement". It's meant to keep the GPL on the kernel from applying to proprietary modules being loaded, like the NUC (NetWare UNIX Client) code module in Caldera Linux. I'm not certain it applies to GPL'ed KLDs in FreeBSD; it certainly did not apply to GPL'ed LKMs, because of the way the technology used to work; I think KLDs still work this way: LKMs used to link against the kernel using "ld -r" of PIC'ed modules, so that they could be loaded at arbitrary locations in the KVA space, given that location of the allocation was uncertain. The term "significant code" is used quite purposefully, since it dictates what does or does not qualify as a derivative work (it is the "derivation test" used by legal authority), and it's what keeps most code run on Linux from being GPL'ed by virtue of including sometimes complex inline code and macros from Linux header files. The problem is that the modules import static data and symbols at link time (and hence "match" the kernel -- and so can not meet the GPL/LGPL "relink clause" in all cases). FWIW: Jeffrey Hsu did the original PIC generation for the GNU compiler and assembler, and I did the original module loading (LKM) implementation that was picked up by NetBSD, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD. > On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 23:49:37 -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > Greg Lehey writes: > >> The loader might have to be GPL'd. > > > > If the loader, then the kernel too. > > No, of course not. That would imply that anything you run under the > kernel also has to be GPLd. The loader and kernel are two very > different beasts. You can load FreeBSD with the Linux loader. Does > that make FreeBSD GPLd? No. The Linux kernel has a special expection to cause it to be treated as an LGPL'ed library by kernel modules. Please read the Linux license in its entirety. See also the GPL FAQ, which explicitly discusses how to grant such exceptions, yet still apply the GPL to your code. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 22:23: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1682637B416; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16F8Dm-0003gN-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:22:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1AEC42.C74E5503@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:22:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C19CAD3.A5685BEF@yahoo.com> <20011215110924.K85108@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 14 December 2001 at 9:48:03 +0000, Hiten Pandya wrote: > >> (Greg)The loader might have to be GPL'd. > > > > I dont think so, we can use that LILO loader which is also GPL'ed > > under the src/sys/boot tree. I will make a seperate article > > when the file system is ready saying what to do if people wanted > > to use JFS in their environments. > > I don't think LILO understands JFS. It doesn't have to. The block locations are recorded in LILO itself, so it doesn't matter what FS you use, as long as it does not do data transformation (e.g. not cryptographic, and not compressing). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 22:28: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0B537B417; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16F8IW-0001FP-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:27:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1AED66.A43BF36B@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:27:50 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <20011215113836.O85108@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > We have GPLd kernel modules now. It is probably not technically legal to distribute binaries of GPL'ed kernel modules linked against a particular kernel. At issue is the linked non-BSS data interfaces. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 22:40:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6206237B41A; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16F8UC-00010F-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:39:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1AF03B.571C4EB6@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:39:55 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: scanner@jurai.net Cc: Greg Lehey , Brad Knowles , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org scanner@jurai.net wrote: [ ... porting JFS for benchmark reasons ... ] > Yes doing so would be nice. For that exact reason. To see some real > numbers and how they stack up. I think we all agree on this. > However i'm with brad it would be better > considering the nature of the GPL on JFS, to get co-operation from > SGI. Maybe they would consider another point of view in licensing their > XFS to the BSD folks. Then again maybe not. When I talked to their Chief Scientist who had made the GPL'ing decision about relicensing the code, and the fact that most of the best academic FS hackers are in the BSD camp, and the fact that you would not be able to take changes to the GPL'ed version of the FS (derivative works of GPL'ed code), and reintegrated them into IRIX, he was rather intractable. Now that SGI has virtually collapsed, and could use both the press and free profressional help with their code, they might have changed their tune, but don't bet on it. Last time I had the discussions, it was very clear that they had The Religion. > Everytime this issue comes up its the same friggin thing. The GPL > is a deal killer. Period. I know your stance on the GPL greg. And I > respect it. But I dont think the vast majority of BSD users or developers > share it. This is like the 5th time this issue has come up about an JFS > on FreeBSD. And again I think the only solution that is even going to > remotely fly is to talk to vendors about getting source under a BSD like > license. Actually, if they'd just LGPL the damn thing, we could ar it into a library, and be done with it. > I think with the right people at SGI some sane discussions could > take place. I would never have thought Intel would of budged just a minute > ammount on their doco policy but they did just a little. And SGI is by far > more friendly to OS then Intel. Otherwise if no one cares to release a JFS > under a BSD like license, then the best and I think most natural solution > is to just work on FFS to make it the best FS possible. Which is what Kirk > is doing. And we should all feel lucky that Kirk still has an interest in > improving FFS and that he helps out. I would be happy to make contact with > SGI and try to get some things rolling if we ever come to a conclusion > about JFS support. The GFS people are willing to talk on license, and Kirk is already working on UFS2. In addition, significant work on Margo Seltzer's LFS code has taken place in NetBSD in the last year, including the creation of a fully operational "clearner" daemon. As has also been pointed out, the JFS in question is "only around 2000 lines of code"; frankly given a full design document in hand, I could probably bang that out in a week or less (my record is 22,000 lines of C++ code in 2 weeks of code writing, after 6 weeks of design work, with two one line defects and one three line defect after the period of 2 years; I have witnesses -- right Julian E., Mark P.?). There are plenty of options. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 22:51:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F2237B428 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0205.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.205] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16F8f3-0000DT-00; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:51:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1AF2DD.D26BFFEB@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:51:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > I must mention that individual articles for newspapers (and from > magazines) do have value by themselves. The "big enchilada" from a payoff perspective is "First rights", e.g. "First North American Publishing rights". > Often, articles (including newspapers) are written by freelancers that > retain the rights to republish -- and they do. So by even using one > article and republishing, you could be dimishing the value of that one > single article. (Many freelancers' entire livelihood is based on trying to > republish and republish the same articles again and again.) Even with your intransigent attitude, you have to admit that the FreeBSD-chat mailing list is the moral equivalent of a small circulation free home buyer's home buyer's guide. I could probably pay "damages" with the coins in my pocket (and probably already did, when I purchased a copy of the paper because I knew it had the article in it). > Personally, I'd find > it unethical and illegal if someone copied verbatim one of my website's > articles and republished into a wide public forum without permission. I > can assume that the other BSD media websites editors (and professional > freelancers) wouldn't like their articles republished (without > permission), since it may stop traffic to their site and lessens the value > of the article that could have been sold elsewhere (like in some print > media). Now weigh pursuing legal action, against pissing off ~5000 people, some of whom are probably willing to cancel their Boston Globe or affiliated media subscriptions over what was an obvious attempt at "fair use" of the article in a forum which would not have seen it otherwise, and which can be documented to have sold a number of papers through said exposure. P.S.: I am still waiting for the correction over who coined the term "Open Source". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 23:30:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA46137B405; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE77C517; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21241; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:30:25 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBF7THO52902; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:29:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <20011215113836.O85108@monorchid.lemis.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 14 Dec 2001 23:29:16 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011215113836.O85108@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: <0ln10l7xgz.10l@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 48 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Friday, 14 December 2001 at 17:58:44 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 05:02 PM 12/14/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> Correct. But there's this funny agreement that loading modules falls > >> under the LGPL, not the GPL. > > > > Linux is licensed under a variant of the GPL that allows the linking > > of modules and libraries that are not GPLed. This does not apply at > > all to this case, in which the module WOULD be GPLed. I've seen it both ways from people who should know, but I just looked at the COPYING file in the top of a Linux 2.2.18 source tree and it is a vanilla GPL with this at the top (separated by a "Linus Torvalds" above a dashed line): NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived work". Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the Linux kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it. I guess he must consider kernel module loading just another case of kernel system calls. Makes good sense to me, but I think some people aren't so agreeable, especially when the modules are shipped with the kernel and are loaded during boot. (The kernel hackers don't really qualify as "agreeable" either, since they make frivolous changes to the kernel API so as to frequently break modules seemingly to "encourage" closed-source module makers to hand the source over for maintenance.) One could easily make the case that "COPYING" forms the language of the license contract and not just the FSF stuff and the combination defines a possibly non-standard (or at least a more precise) definition of "derived work". I suspect the Linux people prefer to see it as pure GPL with just some added "education", out of the legal arena. > It's a similar situation. Whom should I ask for confirmation? It seems the similarity depends on how people (and courts) view the definition of "derivative". Loading a kernel module on a long-running kernel wouldn't seem to make the kernel a derivative of the module. How about during boot? How about if the kernel and module are distributed on a CD ROM? How about in a filesystem in flash RAM? How about in ROM? That seems essentially like a statically linked program. I wouldn't count on getting a confirmation; just opinions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 14 23:50: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A28137B416; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10347BF46; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24300; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:50:00 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBF7mrG52905; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:48:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <20011215103210.G85108@monorchid.lemis.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 14 Dec 2001 23:48:52 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011215103210.G85108@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Thursday, 13 December 2001 at 23:49:37 -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > > If the loader, then the kernel too. > > No, of course not. That would imply that anything you run under the > kernel also has to be GPLd. The loader and kernel are two very > different beasts. You can load FreeBSD with the Linux loader. Does > that make FreeBSD GPLd? Maybe the GPL IS that contageous; how can one know? But I was just viewing the loader, kernel, and JFS module, stored together there in a small single-purpose portion of the disk, which loads and runs as a single program as nothing essentially different than a statically linked program and therefor would seem to require licensing as a whole. I hate to think that such combining of software creates a derivative, but it seems to be the law. Another reason to avoid nasty licenses. You're last question is intriguing. Who is authorized to say that the LILO-FreeBSD combination isn't a single, derived program, worthy of a single license? The GPL's narrow exception for OS-related software surely doesn't apply here, not the least because it says it doesn't apply when they are distributed together. Yikes. It's a good thing there's no big money involved in all this and most people don't care. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 0:15: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7E337B417; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 00:15:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4419C52B; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 00:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA28653; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 00:15:00 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBF8Dqp52912; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 00:13:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Greg Lehey Cc: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C19CAD3.A5685BEF@yahoo.com> <20011215110924.K85108@monorchid.lemis.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 15 Dec 2001 00:13:51 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011215110924.K85108@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > I don't think LILO understands JFS. I think LILO doesn't understand ANY FS. It does raw disk blocks IDs. It doesn't matter anyway as the idea was to have a LILO-like loader load the kernel and JFS module without benefit of any FS. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 1:25:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9715937B41A for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E786C543; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA10043; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:25:26 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBF9OIl52918; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:24:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <5ipu5i9u0w.u5i@localhost.localdomain> <3C19D716.3FC77047@mindspring.com> <3C1A6E7F.3CF2E0EB@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 15 Dec 2001 01:24:18 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C1A6E7F.3CF2E0EB@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 43 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > ... I was just trying > > to say that BSD-licensed code is always BSD-licensed code, even if a > > derivative in which it appears is GPL-licensed (or even closed-source- > > licensed) and the two licenses are not incompatible. > > The problem with this is that you are only licensed to use the > GPL'ed code if you meet the terms of the GPL, which means that > the code it is linked with is GPL'ed. But that statement doesn't say enough. The GPL requires the deriver to license the derivative under the GPL, and thus his own code under the GPL, but nothing in the GPL prevents him from also licensing his own code (that which is NOT a derivative of the GPL code) under any other license. (Some other licenses would be of no practical value (like a closed-source license), but the BSDL would allow broader use.) The non-derivative code could even be put into the public domain. Consider the opposite case of Linus putting a BSD-licensed driver into his GPL'd kernel. He doesn't even own the copyright of the driver and therefor certainly can't change the licensing of the driver, yet we know that the kernel as a whole (being a derivative of the driver and the old kernel) is under the GPL. There is no conflict. Both licenses permit sub-licensing, the difference being that BSDL allows stricter (but not less strict) sub-licensing, while the GPL allows only GPL sub-licensing. Nothing prevents BSDL code, or even public domain code, from also being part of a GPL derivative and being part of it doesn't remove the BSDL from the BSDL code or remove PD code from the PD. > We are not talking "mere aggregation" when we talk about linking, I knew that. I've not been even considering aggregation here, except maybe in my off-target anthology-book example. > They disagree with your conclusion? 8^) 8^) Again, I didn't understand, but one problem is that I don't have a conclusion and I'm fairly sure only a court (or some lawsuit-threatening licensees) will ever come up with a conclusion that should reduce our uncertainty significantly. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 3:54:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0096A37B41E for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 03:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0048.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.48] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FDOo-0002Vq-00; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 03:54:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1B39FF.C0F06938@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 03:54:39 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <5ipu5i9u0w.u5i@localhost.localdomain> <3C19D716.3FC77047@mindspring.com> <3C1A6E7F.3CF2E0EB@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > ... I was just trying > > > to say that BSD-licensed code is always BSD-licensed code, even if a > > > derivative in which it appears is GPL-licensed (or even closed-source- > > > licensed) and the two licenses are not incompatible. > > > > The problem with this is that you are only licensed to use the > > GPL'ed code if you meet the terms of the GPL, which means that > > the code it is linked with is GPL'ed. > > But that statement doesn't say enough. The GPL requires the deriver > to license the derivative under the GPL, and thus his own code under > the GPL, but nothing in the GPL prevents him from also licensing his > own code (that which is NOT a derivative of the GPL code) under any > other license. (Some other licenses would be of no practical value > (like a closed-source license), but the BSDL would allow broader use.) I think you are not geting it. My (and others) concern is not that FreeBSD code would be GPL'ed (though that is a valid concern), but that the various licenses which the FreeBSD code is distributed under are incomptible with the GPL (e.g. the :BeerWare License" and the "4 clause BSDL", the "Bill Paul Voices in the head license", etc.). You can't argue that an OS consisting of a GPL'ed JFS and a BSD licensed everything else is _not_ a derivative work of both the GPL'ed JFS and the BSDL'ed everything else, particularly since it is widely acknowledged that an OS needs an FS to be useful at all. If all of FreeBSD were under the 2 clause BSDL, then the FSF would claim compatability of the license with GPL. It's not all under that license, however. But let's say for the sake of argument, it was. I would argue that the FSF's legal theory was wrong, since you can not license BSDL'ed code under a different license (e.g. the GPL) unless you are the copyright holder, or have an assign from the copyright holder(s): the BSDL is what permits you to use the code, and you are not permitted to change the license. The closest you could get would be an aggregate license, like the UofU "OSKit" GPL license. > The non-derivative code could even be put into the public domain. I believe that the BSD code would all be in the Public Domain already, if there wasn't a need for a "hold harmless" to stave off litigation. If the Congress could see fit to imply a "hold harmless" for works placed in the public domain, most of my code written on my own time for the purposes of reference would be placed in the public domain already. The GPL _went out of its way_ to make itself incompatible with the MIT Project Athena license, and therefore the BSDL, as well. I think you are seeing here the crux of the fundamental philosophical difference between the users of the GPL and BSDL: the intent is totally different. > Consider the opposite case of Linus putting a BSD-licensed driver into > his GPL'd kernel. He doesn't even own the copyright of the driver and > therefor certainly can't change the licensing of the driver, yet we > know that the kernel as a whole (being a derivative of the driver and > the old kernel) is under the GPL. There is no conflict. Both licenses > permit sub-licensing, the difference being that BSDL allows stricter > (but not less strict) sub-licensing, while the GPL allows only GPL > sub-licensing. Nothing prevents BSDL code, or even public domain code, > from also being part of a GPL derivative and being part of it doesn't > remove the BSDL from the BSDL code or remove PD code from the PD. For the 2 clause license, this is true. However, I would argue that doing this would prohibit the preparation of derivative works of the driver code in particular. Most BSD code is under the 4 clause license (the "claim credit clause" counts as an additional restriction, in the GPL's book). THis is because in order to distribute the derivative work, you would need to license it under the aggregate license, but the code you are eriving it from must be licensed under the 2 clause BSDL. At best, they can coeexist in the same kernel, but they are immiscible. I think that you would end up with a derivative work of BSDL'ed code that lived in the Linux kernel _only_ because of the exception in the Linux license granting treatment of the kernel as an LGPL'ed library for the purposes of access to kernel services. > > We are not talking "mere aggregation" when we talk about linking, > > I knew that. I've not been even considering aggregation here, except > maybe in my off-target anthology-book example. Your 2 clause BSDL'ed driver in a GPL'ed kernel is an aggregation example, IMO. You also neglect to note that, for drivers, the Linux kernel is treated as an LGPL'ed library due to a specific exception granted to licensees to allow the use of commercial third party drivers. > > They disagree with your conclusion? 8^) 8^) > > Again, I didn't understand, but one problem is that I don't have a > conclusion and I'm fairly sure only a court (or some lawsuit-threatening > licensees) will ever come up with a conclusion that should reduce our > uncertainty significantly. Again, feel free to present youself as a test case; I have better things to do with my time and money (like getting every oddball piece of hardware NetBSD claims to run on up and running -- and that's way in the heck down my list of useful pursuits). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 14:45: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1F437B416 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:44:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DDABDA4; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16176; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:44:58 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBFMhlb55939; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 14:43:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186EA5.4EA87656@mindspring.com> <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <5ipu5i9u0w.u5i@localhost.localdomain> <3C19D716.3FC77047@mindspring.com> <3C1A6E7F.3CF2E0EB@mindspring.com> <3C1B39FF.C0F06938@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 15 Dec 2001 14:43:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C1B39FF.C0F06938@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <2c3d2c85pa.d2c@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 108 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: [snip] > > I think you are not geting it. My (and others) concern is not that > FreeBSD code would be GPL'ed (though that is a valid concern), but > that the various licenses which the FreeBSD code is distributed under > are incomptible with the GPL (e.g. the :BeerWare License" and the "4 > clause BSDL", the "Bill Paul Voices in the head license", etc.). I still think your argument was in error, but it's better dropped now. I did think that FreeBSD was under a 2-condition license, because of http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html, titled "The FreeBSD Copyright" (Another item for my PR-someday list.) > You can't argue that an OS consisting of a GPL'ed JFS and a BSD > licensed everything else is _not_ a derivative work of both the > GPL'ed JFS and the BSDL'ed everything else, particularly since it > is widely acknowledged that an OS needs an FS to be useful at all. Well, I can argue that it is a collective work, but I'm not sure if law considers that to also be a derivative or something distinct. In any case, I'm sure that the OS+JFS is a single work with copyrights. But it doesn't matter that the collective work is a derivative of a GPL work. What matters is whether the original non-GPL work is "based on" the orignial GPL work and falls under the GPL's "mere aggregation" escape clause, so that the non-GPL work is not contaminated. (The GPL contradicts itself in this matter, but the escape remains.) In this case, the non-GPL part can hardly said to be "based on" the GPL part. Copyright law doesn't care about what an OS needs; each part is just a separate work of authorship. Saying that a non-GPL part created before a GPL part is "based on" the GPL part is ridiculous (though date of creation gets to be a messy subject). > If all of FreeBSD were under the 2 clause BSDL, then the FSF would > claim compatability of the license with GPL. It's not all under > that license, however. But let's say for the sake of argument, it > was. I would argue that the FSF's legal theory was wrong, since > you can not license BSDL'ed code under a different license (e.g. > the GPL) unless you are the copyright holder, or have an assign > from the copyright holder(s): the BSDL is what permits you to use > the code, and you are not permitted to change the license. The > closest you could get would be an aggregate license, like the UofU > "OSKit" GPL license. Excepting the last stentence which I don't understand (yet), I agree. In fact, the BSDL'd code doesn't even fall under the copyright of the licensee of the joint work; any conditions put on it by the GPL are of no effect in court. 17 USC 103b: The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material. So I think you are saying that since the deriver can't put such conditions on the BSDL'd code (unless he is the owner?), then he can't agree to the GPL nor use the GPL code with the BSDL'd code at all. I guess I have to agree. Wow! > > The non-derivative code could even be put into the public domain. > > I believe that the BSD code would all be in the Public Domain > already, if there wasn't a need for a "hold harmless" to stave > off litigation. If the Congress could see fit to imply a "hold > harmless" for works placed in the public domain, most of my code > written on my own time for the purposes of reference would be > placed in the public domain already. Using the BSDL doesn't "stave off" the litigation, but it lowers the risk to more acceptable levels. And it's not as risk free as you might think, because the BSDL (and the GPL) allow people to get ahold of and own the software without having read or agreed to the terms of the licenses. Such people, presumably assuming that it is under copyright, can't distribute it, but the law allows them to run the program, which might harm them, leading to the litigation you tried to avoid. And I see no reason it couldn't be sucessful litigation, unless there's a more basic law that you aren't libel for things done with your stuff which you've let people use for free. (Doesn't work for swimming pools, though.) Does this mean we need "read and click to signify agreement" filters (virtual shrink wrap) on open source software? > I think that you would end up with a derivative work of BSDL'ed code > that lived in the Linux kernel _only_ because of the exception in > the Linux license granting treatment of the kernel as an LGPL'ed > library for the purposes of access to kernel services. ... > Linux kernel is treated as an LGPL'ed library due to a specific > exception granted to licensees to allow the use of commercial third > party drivers. As I showed (with a clip from the Linux kernel's COPYING) in a message yesterday (or just look at GPL claims in most of the source code), it's not clear that there is any such exception; it's probably just Linus' questionable understanding of the meaning of the GPL. Notice that it is "signed" by Linus, not the copyright owners. I guess it is an exception in practice, though. Nobody's getting sued. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 18:18:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A1637B419 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 37768786E3; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:48:18 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:48:18 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Why no Indians and Arabs? Message-ID: <20011216124818.L62493@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was recently asked the question in a private Email: why are there no Arabs in the FreeBSD project? At least, I don't know of any. Also, I know of only one Indian in the project (Joseph Koshy). We have plenty of people from other countries. Any ideas why this should be? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 21:27:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47B237B405 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0120.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.120] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FTpG-0004dg-00; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:27:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1C30A8.633D60A3@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:27:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? References: <20011216124818.L62493@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > I was recently asked the question in a private Email: why are there no > Arabs in the FreeBSD project? At least, I don't know of any. Also, > I know of only one Indian in the project (Joseph Koshy). We have > plenty of people from other countries. Any ideas why this should be? You're wrong, but of course it could be offensive for me to give a partial list (either by listing people by their ethnicity, or by missing someone, since either could be taken the wrong way). Suffice it to say that I'm more interested in identifying the Germans so that they can disassemble my Windows Winmodem drivers, etc., to document the interfaces, and let me program FreeBSD versions (since they're legally allowed to do that under German law), and the South Africans (who can export crypto to the rest of us). If the U.S. government doesn't have a problem with establishing rules which force public projects to establish engineering and cryptographic center of excellence any place _but_ the U.S., neither do I... In other words, the only thing that really matters about ethnicity or nationality, as far as I'm concerned, is relative access to the information needed for programming, and ability to share it with others (e.g. "me"). 8^) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 21:38:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0780537B417 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 628CA786E6; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:08:06 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:08:06 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Message-ID: <20011216160806.R62493@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011216124818.L62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1C30A8.633D60A3@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C1C30A8.633D60A3@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 15 December 2001 at 21:27:04 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> I was recently asked the question in a private Email: why are there no >> Arabs in the FreeBSD project? At least, I don't know of any. Also, >> I know of only one Indian in the project (Joseph Koshy). We have >> plenty of people from other countries. Any ideas why this should be? > > You're wrong, but of course it could be offensive for me to give > a partial list (either by listing people by their ethnicity, or > by missing someone, since either could be taken the wrong way). Hmm. I've already received a private reply in this vein. Certainly my intention was not to discriminate; quite the contrary. I would find it sad if obvious differences can't be discussed. I can't recall anybody getting upset, for example, when people asked why there are no female hackers. > Suffice it to say that I'm more interested in identifying the > Germans so that they can disassemble my Windows Winmodem drivers, > etc., to document the interfaces, and let me program FreeBSD > versions (since they're legally allowed to do that under German > law), Most laws allow this. Australian law does too. But there's no shortage of German hackers on the lists; let me know if you want a partial list. > and the South Africans (who can export crypto to the rest of us). I thought most laws allow this, too. I'm pretty sure Australian law does. I think the export from .za was because Mark Murray personally took it in hand. > If the U.S. government doesn't have a problem with establishing > rules which force public projects to establish engineering and > cryptographic center of excellence any place _but_ the U.S., neither > do I... I do, but for different reasons. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 21:44:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9294737B416 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBG5iGR11475; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:44:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002201c185f4$bbbb6720$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Greg Lehey" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216124818.L62493@monorchid.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:44:16 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why does a person's nationality or ethnicity matter? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Lehey" To: "FreeBSD Chat" Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 03:18 Subject: Why no Indians and Arabs? > I was recently asked the question in a private Email: why are there no > Arabs in the FreeBSD project? At least, I don't know of any. Also, > I know of only one Indian in the project (Joseph Koshy). We have > plenty of people from other countries. Any ideas why this should be? > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 21:50:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB6B37B417; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 21:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBG5oZR11495; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:50:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002701c185f5$956e9aa0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Greg Lehey" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216124818.L62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1C30A8.633D60A3@mindspring.com> <20011216160806.R62493@monorchid.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:50:35 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg writes: > Certainly my intention was not to discriminate; > quite the contrary. I would find it sad if > obvious differences can't be discussed. They can be discussed, but to what end? Nationality, ethnic background, gender, race, and religion are all completely irrelevant to software engineering, except in the extremely narrow contexts Terry has described, and then only for nationality or geographic location. I've never seen any variable of software coding that correlates with any of these characteristics. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 22:15:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B38437B416 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:15:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dg@localhost) by root.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id fBG66r787227; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:06:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:06:53 -0800 From: David Greenman To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Message-ID: <20011215220653.D86349@nexus.root.com> References: <20011216124818.L62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <002201c185f4$bbbb6720$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002201c185f4$bbbb6720$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 06:44:16AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Why does a person's nationality or ethnicity matter? It doesn't, and the moment that it starts to matter we have a problem. As already pointed out by Terry, we do in fact have Indian and Arab developers, some of which I've had the pleasure of becoming friends with. A person's nationality or ethnicity has never been a criteria for participation in FreeBSD development (or anything else except skill, competence, and ability to get along with others). -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 22:23:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D2D37B416; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11851; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 23:23:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 23:23:11 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <20011215113836.O85108@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:08 PM 12/14/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >We have GPLd kernel modules now. YOU might... but they darn well better not make it into the source tree or all of FreeBSD would fall under the GPL. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 22:28:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF8837B419; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0120.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.120] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FUmx-0000TG-00; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:28:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1C3F1C.A9593059@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:28:44 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Reverse Engineering References: <20011216124818.L62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1C30A8.633D60A3@mindspring.com> <20011216160806.R62493@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: [ ... other discussion ... ] > > Suffice it to say that I'm more interested in identifying the > > Germans so that they can disassemble my Windows Winmodem drivers, > > etc., to document the interfaces, and let me program FreeBSD > > versions (since they're legally allowed to do that under German > > law), > > Most laws allow this. Australian law does too. But there's no > shortage of German hackers on the lists; let me know if you want a > partial list. If you could find someone willing to disassemble and document the interactions of: WIN95AC.VXD VMM32.VXD (vcomm.vxd) TURBOVCD.VXD TURBOVBF.VXD HCFCSA32.DLL HCFCSA.DLL ROKV42.VXD ROKKMOS.VXD DPAL.VXD HCFPNP.VX And, in particular, how to locate and extract the codec bits from these files for use by a UNIX driver that directly references the Windows driver files, I would appreciate it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 15 23:18:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B2937B405; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 23:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A246C786E3; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:48:50 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:48:50 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011216174850.S62493@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 15 December 2001 at 23:23:11 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:08 PM 12/14/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> We have GPLd kernel modules now. > > YOU might... but they darn well better not make it into the > source tree or all of FreeBSD would fall under the GPL. /usr/src/sys/gnu. It's there now. From the GPL: If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message