From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 3 07:35:38 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570A4106564A for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 07:35:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx01.qsc.de (mx01.qsc.de [213.148.129.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 058728FC15 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 07:35:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-195-103-124.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.103.124]) by mx01.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857143C976; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:35:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id p737ZZfu005923; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:35:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:35:34 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Conrad J. Sabatier" Message-Id: <20110803093534.13998932.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20110803020651.41a146a5@serene> References: <20110803020651.41a146a5@serene> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fw: 8.2-RELEASE-amd64.iso weirdness (help!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 07:35:38 -0000 On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 02:06:51 -0500, Conrad J. Sabatier wrote: > Interesting to see the changes that have taken place in the meantime. > I've certainly got some catching up to do here. :-) You learn something new every day using FreeBSD. :-) > I much prefer to use ports, myself. I just like to install cvsup from > packages on a new install, to get the ball rolling, as they say. I was > very surprised to see so few packages available in sysinstall, I must > say! No need to install cvsup or cvsup-without-gui. The csup utility is part of the base system and has the same functionality. It can be used to do "make update" for the ports collection and the src/ subtree. > I always liked using "DD" mode. Why use a boot manager > or even a plain-vanilla MBR if you don't really need one, right? As far as I know, you can still use it, but sysinstall won't support it. The dedicated mode is still useful when you need to keep fdisk-partitioned disks (e. g. for compatibility issues), but don't have need for a separate slice as FreeBSD doesn't essentially need it, and if you don't want to access FreeBSD's partitions from a different OS that can't handle the dedicated layout - it should be fine. For maximum compatibility, it's still often suggested to use the fdisk + bsdlabel + newfs approach, if you need it "old-fashioned". :-) Of course, GPT is the current modern way to go. > I ran the install CD a bunch of times, and have tried both installing > FreeBSD's boot manager as well as installing an ordinary master boot > record. I thought that would be all it would take to override grub, > but not so! It _should_. > I've tried just about everything I can think of, and still that nasty, > grubby (pun intended) little sucker is still there when I reboot. It's > downright infuriating! Try with sysctl kern.geom.debugflags=16 set, it should make sure the writes are "direct", and there's nothing "preserving" data of previous installations. Partitioners other than fdisk may store data in other regions of the hard disk, e. g. some meta-data at the "end", or "bottom" of the disk? :-) > Yes, I've been shelling out and shelling out from sysinstall, but still > not getting the results I want. It's almost as if my hard drive has > turned into a "grub magnet" and it just won't come off! :-) A powerful contra-magnet should fix it. :-) > Exactly. I haven't looked up the error codes (either 15 or 17, > depending on what I was trying just before the reboot), but that's as > far as it gets, outputting the code and then just sitting there. I > suspect the codes are related to grub not finding the menu.lst file it > expects to find buried down in a subdirectory of /etc (God, I hate > Linux!). :-) Those codes may also be generated by the BIOS. For example, my system outputs two-digit codes in the lower right corner of the screen during boot to signal some states I don't know in detail. Such a state could be "cannot boot, didn't find anything" when transfering control from BIOS to 1st stage of booting (traditionally MBR) fails. Some systems show an "please insert diskette and press Enter" message, others keep rebooting, and some just show a mysterious number. > I've got to say, this whole experience really took me by surprise. > I've been using FreeBSD since 1996, and could breeze through an install > procedure in my sleep. Never expected these sorts of complications to > arise. Even if the basic dialogs you're visiting are nearly the same since 4.0 (the time when I started using FreeBSD regularly). Today, I mostly do installs per command line, and often scripted, so sysinstall isn't an "everyday tool" to me. Still I can remember how to blaze through its screens to get a basic system installed. Maybe that's causing the typical sysinstall-related lazyness. :-) > I ran dd and zeroed out the entire first gigabyte of space on the > drive, yet grub was still there! I couldn't believe it. Then it seems that there is either a error during write (e. g. a protection mechanism that reports "write done, all successful", but in fact does not perform the actual write operation to the MBR), or parts of GRUB are located in "later" parts of the disk. Or, if both does not apply, it's a BIOS supplied status code. > I'm on the > verge now of just zeroing out the entire drive. Hate to have to resort > to such a ridiculously extreme method, but at this point, there seems > to be little else left to try. The unfortunate thing is that, after > all these repeated failures, I then have to go back and reinstall Ubuntu > Linux to get back online, post questions, do further investigation, etc. > Very time-consuming. Dual-booting (or secondary system) would be good in this case. But dual-booting can also lead to strange observations (as you described). > By the way, I'm just wondering, how long have you been using FreeBSD, > and do you like the way it's been evolving since you started? I'm using it since version 4.0 both for servers and for my home desktop (exclusively). Other systems I use are OpenBSD and Solaris. From time to time, I try some Linux, see that it's not my cup of tea, and move on. :-) The development of OS and the constantly good quality impress me at every release. On the same system, the OS boots faster each time it gets updated. Sadly, the installed applications do a "good" job of "compensation", so keeping the same hardware, things tend to run slower. But that is not FreeBSD's fault. Many comfortable tools are now part of the base system, like a CVS program, a binary system updater, or a program to fetch up-to-date ports/ subtrees. This makes building systems "from scratch" more easy. So for the OS, I have no complains, except the one that it doesn't identify my Sun USB keyboard properly since after version 5 (6 not tested, 7 missing identification string, but it WORKS without problems). For the removal of the dedicated mode from sysinstall: It seems that this mode is hardly used, and other operating systems may feel threatened by not being able to play with a dedicated disk (that's why the misleading prefix "dangerously"?), so using this approach has been moved to the "very professional" area of the installer, which is the pure command line. But as sysinstall is going to be deprecated anyway in favour of a new installer that also will surely provide GPT and ZFS installation dialogs, MAYBE the dedicated mode comes back as a valid choice because - what's wrong about using it? (NB those are just _my_ very individual impressions, but I hope it's okay to share them on-list.) > I was > madly in love with FreeBSD (and still am, if I could just get it > running again) before I bought this machine and had to abandon it > because it wouldn't properly detect either my CD-ROM or my hard drive. > You can imagine what a disappointment *that* was! I can - disk and optical drives are considered basics. I know it would be too much to require the system to properly detect any proprietary and broken-by-design piece of cheap commodity hardware from the home consumer crap sector. :-) > Thanks for replying to my post. I do appreciate it very much. I'll > let you know if I ever do manage to get anywhere with this problem. Try the sysctl and then dd. Wipe the MBR first, and to be sure, add some MB of /dev/zero's. In worst case, consult your mainboard's documentation to make sure the numbers are _not_ BIOS status "messages". -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...