From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 24 16:39:30 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7235CCC for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:39:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from orthanc.ca (neo.orthanc.ca [IPv6:2607:f2f8:abf8::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B43D81A8C for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:39:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.42.6] (d66-183-221-35.bchsia.telus.net [66.183.221.35] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by orthanc.ca (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s1OGdQcx084336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:39:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ca) From: Lyndon Nerenberg Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FB0F918B-E922-4A06-AAB9-422D3EF3ACF6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Subject: Re: Import of DragonFly Mail Agent Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:39:25 -0800 References: <20140223211155.GS1699@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <530B67EA.1090102@FreeBSD.org> <45746.1393257416@critter.freebsd.dk> To: FreeBSD current In-Reply-To: <45746.1393257416@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on orthanc.ca X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:39:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FB0F918B-E922-4A06-AAB9-422D3EF3ACF6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On Feb 24, 2014, at 7:56 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp = wrote: > Bullshit. Sounds like your week didn't get off to a good start. > You got FreeBSD in there in the first place, there clearly > is some kind of aperture through which software can migrate. Yes, we walk in a DVD-ROM with a FreeBSD installation image on it. This = works because there is a self-contained installer that contains a very = complete system. Certainly enough to build things like file servers and = network infrastructure machines (dhcp, ntp, other general network = services). Installing ports/pkgs, on the other hand, is a real pain. For pre-built = packages, you can build a list of dependencies, download the packages to = an external machine, copy them to a portable drive, and walk them over = to a shared filesystem. This works, provided there are pre-built images = of the package and its recursive dependency tree (and that they are = configured in a way that works for your environment). If the above doesn't work, you have to fall back to ports. And this is = where things get really hairy. Just generating the list of required = distfiles is problematic. 'make fetch-recursive-list' will give you a = script to run to pull down the direct build dependencies, but this = misses run-time dependencies. Generating that list takes a lot of = manual work, and is *very* time consuming. The increasing focus on securing systems from network attacks in only = increasing the number of air-gapped environments (and I know this from = first hand experience). The sort of massive unbundling that a few = people are tossing around here has the potential to exponentially = increase the workload of people operating in the environments I have = witnessed (and worked in). I want them to realize that there are = ramifications to those sort of changes that need to be taken into = consideration. These days UNIX tends to be single-user environment, for the most part. = Because of that it is very easy for people to get into the mindset that = "if I don't use it, nobody else uses it," and thus losing sight of the = whole being so much greater than the sum of its parts. That said, I can understand wanting to unbundle some of the very complex = but lesser used components (e.g. bind). But there's always a balancing = act to be performed here. Making every command in /usr/bin its own = package serves nobody. (Yes, I exaggerate to make a point.) --lyndon --Apple-Mail=_FB0F918B-E922-4A06-AAB9-422D3EF3ACF6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTC3W9AAoJEG8PnXiV/JnUtDoP/1Jj+NpZnsJxhYXV13WGGh4L 8wWmgbsEtR0wFFZhvt4xFrawtEuZq/KPYERV7BovCgM+5Mcv/r4PNhbbjAov3uHn 2e9eDvhVD95p7Ee7xS5rZHpN0NVQo42PmPYwmd8vi4bYaqQ/XCFTEXjxE7dcnqRs DPEmzSrBdxhEhbqIUwizkx2rNwIq0I3wjec20P0exeoHPl5hS/871Ii2rmVoZaHD M7y9esd/uiUgXa/sN3RTjnOWz0A+7OcGYpiBTB91zRknRqnxHd5+umpuPE0R+h6Q brSm+jXHUch2rmEDkl/57OUcBa8agFq7oQ3JaZ3ZquK7nJtgzNkBPjfeDj/o+nTy w+PXuvapC6VpHZSQUkBxp8yHQ29zIXi0R7zPYmWrs5IE37TmSLbgAtSs+crPubnX 2pxt53wG5Mt8krYH9lWv8n59l8eP9BRFItdryO065wwvkISP5HZ2Ny3iO/SUHYhB g93UBa6hvBGcKQQrtnQQhrOssdWp8ZL7LZ8qxp/bDxfmx0/cz3DfMzON6AFKmGqt 7YBr7ZqYBOrN+vhe3pi7T+363DJwNXOO7f9ZRyio8NEajlzerKfTjAMBZTjdJiNn MCgQA5kXne8tubjEqq4xuz1Sd0M+vP2Cd4pk2zS228EFh+xsnPNAGpqx5hRwG2kO nt6bgASSZJSCp/243cw6 =qR9U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_FB0F918B-E922-4A06-AAB9-422D3EF3ACF6--