From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 0:31:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A5237B6A1 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 00:31:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtgvj.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.195.243]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA17663 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 03:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <391E57F5.524691A1@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:38:29 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com> <20000514051809.N22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513194018.00898d80@mail85.pair.com> <20000514104553.A28453@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005140612.XAA17820@sharmas.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma wrote: > > Even Microsoft knows about this. Give away IE to increase demand for > other Microsoft software. But in a capitalist economy, free flow of > information is not an end in itself - it's the means to an end - > generating more revenue. > > Here's my free speech/freedom argument from a programmer's perspective: > > Programmers should have unrestricted freedom to pursue material > comforts. Giving away software is not incompatible with this freedom. > > What the BSD's need to do to divert programmer mindshare away from > the popular GPL theme, is effective delivery of the above message. Here is wisdom. Thanks Arun! Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 0:46:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBE737B52B for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 00:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtgvj.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.195.243]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA06350 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 03:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <391E5B85.B761FFF6@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:53:41 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <391E2C5B.D4EFB077@mail.ptd.net> <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > It is the choice of the author to use the words "GPL version 2 (or any > later version) applies to this software" or "GPL version 2, and solely > that version, applies to this software", or nothing (which implies the > earlier choice). The author has the choice. > It is the choice of the FreeBSD project to favor non-GPL software whenever practical. Anyway, any such decisions are beyond the author's discretion once they've assigned copyright to Richard M. (Uncle Joe) Stalin. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 0:53:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524D237B5F0 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 00:53:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA20931 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 14 May 2000 10:53:49 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:53:49 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514105349.A20904@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <391E2C5B.D4EFB077@mail.ptd.net> <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <391E5B85.B761FFF6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <391E5B85.B761FFF6@mindspring.com>; from jhix@mindspring.com on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:53:41AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:53:41AM -0700, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > It is the choice of the author to use the words "GPL version 2 (or any > > later version) applies to this software" or "GPL version 2, and solely > > that version, applies to this software", or nothing (which implies the > > earlier choice). The author has the choice. > > > > It is the choice of the FreeBSD project to favor non-GPL software > whenever practical. I know. I endorse that choice. > Anyway, any such decisions are beyond the author's discretion once > they've assigned copyright to Richard M. (Uncle Joe) Stalin. The author doesn't have to assign copyright to anybody, and indeed rarely does. Ask Linus about copyrights on the Linux kernel. And you are entitled to whatever comparisons that may cross your mind, however mind-boggingly stupid they are. Ain't freedom of speech great? -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 1: 3:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BE037B7A3 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 01:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtgvj.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.195.243]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA27974; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <391E5F5A.A8066271@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:10:02 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <391E2C5B.D4EFB077@mail.ptd.net> <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <391E5B85.B761FFF6@mindspring.com> <20000514105349.A20904@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > On Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:53:41AM -0700, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > > > It is the choice of the author to use the words "GPL version 2 (or any > > > later version) applies to this software" or "GPL version 2, and solely > > > that version, applies to this software", or nothing (which implies the > > > earlier choice). The author has the choice. > > > > > > > It is the choice of the FreeBSD project to favor non-GPL software > > whenever practical. > > I know. I endorse that choice. > > > Anyway, any such decisions are beyond the author's discretion once > > they've assigned copyright to Richard M. (Uncle Joe) Stalin. > > The author doesn't have to assign copyright to anybody, and indeed > rarely does. Ask Linus about copyrights on the Linux kernel. I'd rather ask Linus why his ego made him name it Linux and why he is so clueless about revision control. > > And you are entitled to whatever comparisons that may cross your > mind, however mind-boggingly stupid they are. Ain't freedom of > speech great? That comparison was made in order to offend you. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 1:14:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73A737B52B for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 01:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id EAA58232 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:14:42 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514041442.A58200@sasami.jurai.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <391E2C5B.D4EFB077@mail.ptd.net> <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <391E5B85.B761FFF6@mindspring.com> <20000514105349.A20904@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E5F5A.A8066271@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <391E5F5A.A8066271@mindspring.com>; from jhix@mindspring.com on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:10:02AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, W Gerald Hicks, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 01:10:02AM -0700: > > > Anyway, any such decisions are beyond the author's discretion once > > > they've assigned copyright to Richard M. (Uncle Joe) Stalin. > > > > The author doesn't have to assign copyright to anybody, and indeed > > rarely does. Ask Linus about copyrights on the Linux kernel. > > I'd rather ask Linus why his ego made him name it Linux and why he is so > clueless about revision control. Go ahead and ask him. Tell us what he said. These are good questions, too. > > And you are entitled to whatever comparisons that may cross your > > mind, however mind-boggingly stupid they are. Ain't freedom of > > speech great? > > That comparison was made in order to offend you. It only succeeded in irritating me, though. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 1:20:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C700237B873 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 01:20:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtgvj.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.195.243]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA11340 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <391E6381.5D9D2155@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 01:27:45 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <391E2C5B.D4EFB077@mail.ptd.net> <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <391E5B85.B761FFF6@mindspring.com> <20000514105349.A20904@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E5F5A.A8066271@mindspring.com> <20000514041442.A58200@sasami.jurai.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > And you are entitled to whatever comparisons that may cross your > > > mind, however mind-boggingly stupid they are. Ain't freedom of > > > speech great? > > > > That comparison was made in order to offend you. > > It only succeeded in irritating me, though. > A reasonable compromise. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 4:46:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 7A0B837B56E; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:46:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tms2@mail.ptd.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> (tms2@mail.ptd.net) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000514114643.7A0B837B56E@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Do you have a citation in support of this proposition? I have certainly > seen copyright notices on collections of puzzles. > the copyrightable item here is the collection, not the individual crossword puzzles. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 4:48: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82DE437B56E for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:48:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA11251; Sun, 14 May 2000 05:47:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000514054644.0458d840@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 05:47:39 -0600 To: Kris Kirby From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Yowza! Cc: Conrad Sabatier , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alfred Perlstein In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000513222131.04510710@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:44 PM 5/13/2000, Kris Kirby wrote: >Part of the equation that lets us build them so quickly is that they can >test out so quickly. A 900 MHz machine does start NT in a hurry. (Which >they are tested under). How can they distinguish a typical crash of NT from a bad chip? ;-) --Brett If nothing else, the brain is an educational toy. -- Tom Robbins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 4:57: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id AE00637B608; Sun, 14 May 2000 04:57:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: mellon@pobox.com Cc: tms2@mail.ptd.net, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20000514024414.B57423@sasami.jurai.net> (message from Anatoly Vorobey on Sun, 14 May 2000 02:44:15 -0400) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000514115701.AE00637B608@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 04:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I know. But why can't a game be copyrighted? Isn't it a result of > hard work? Shouldn't the players (or so "that" logic goes) be compensated > for their hard work? > copyright is the result of laws passed by congress. logic, fairness and consistency enter into the process while trying to get enough votes to pass the bill into law, not while the bill is being drafted, or being reviewed by committee. an example of this is the flat tax. every pro-flat tax person i have ever heard argues for a flat tax from the top down, rather than the bottom up. in other words, determine a tax rate based upon taxing the poor just as heavily as the not-poor, rather than exempting all those with incomes below $xxx from all taxes and then determining a fixed, flat tax for all others. this would get us to that supposed holy grail of a single tax form that fits on a postcard. (tax corporations the same as people. tax all income the same.) $35,000 might be a good figure for $xxx, above. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 5:42:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bne004m.webcentral.com.au (bne004m.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2FBC337B639 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 05:42:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 30243 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 12:42:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO timberwolf) (203.147.163.146) by bne004m.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 14 May 2000 12:42:42 -0000 Message-ID: <000001bfbda3$3cfd10c0$92a393cb@timberwolf> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "gh" Cc: References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:56:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heh..some friends and I were talking about this the other day, in fact...but we came up with the conclusion that they were hippies rather than communists... It's a shame that (IMO) while they have some good ideas (free software), their 'implementation' has certain things less desirable (GPL). Think about it... the hippies (a generalisation) wanted world peace and all, which was a good, thing, but hey ended up shagging each other and tripping all the time instead. *sigh*. ----- Original Message ----- From: gh To: Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 11:08 PM Subject: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? > > > > > On Sat, 13 May 2000, Brennan W Stehling wrote: > > > > > > My flawed upgrade to 4.0 a while back left me feeling FreeBSD is going > too > > > > fast and that stability and quality is suffering. A friend of mine > was > > > > actually scared off and now prefers to go with Linux as it's > development > > > > seems to be more conservative. > > > > I don't know what kind of crack that guy is smoking, but there is > > nothing at all conservative about Linux or GNU in general. Even if we > > forget about all the communist ideology behind the GPL, they'll still > > take a patch from just about anyone unless it total sucks. The only > > reason that it looks like FreeBSD is moving so fast, as opposed to say, > > RedHat, is because FreeBSD is controlled by one group, as opposed to > > scavenging everything rom thousands of different people. Linux its self > > is just an operating system kernel and can do nothing useful on it's > > own. > > Plus, do you think it's coincidence that Richard Stallmans name sounds > > so much like Joseph Stalin? > > > > > > Curious: If many people are not in favor (for lack of a better phrase) of > GNU, why do we still use tools developed under its ideology? > > As above, people are comparing this group to a group of "communists" and > Stallman to Stalin. Who are we (or 'these people') to continue *using* GNU > tools and things development along its ideology? > > This is almost like saying: Okay, we *really really* don't like you people, > but as long as you are developing stuff, and are giving it away for free, we > will gladly exploit this to further ourselves. > > With which I don't think I have a problem, but what do others believe? > > Dan > gh > > Moved to -chat from -questions because -chat is more appropriate for this > new question. ;-) > > > -- > > William D. Freeman (wfreeman@picusnet.com) > > http://memebers.xoom.com/EvilGNU > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > Version: 3.12 > > GG d- s+:+ a--- C++ UB+++ P+ L- E--- W++ N-- o-- K- w--- > > O---- M-- V-- PS--- PE+++ Y- PGP---- t+++ 5-- X+++ R* tv++ b+ DI++++ > > D---- > > G- e-- h! r++ !y+ > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 6:12:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2472C37B714 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 06:12:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA31623; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:10:47 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:10:47 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's compilation copyright. A collection of x, where x is not copyrightable (or even is copywrit by somebody else) is as an entity copyright protected for the compiler. There are lot's of different kinds of things falling under copyright. On Sun, 14 May 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > > On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 07:28:27PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > At 02:30 14-05-2000 +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > >Chess games cannot be copyrighted. > > > > > > A chess player does not create anything. > > > > You are sadly mistaken. It's clearly no use to debate this further, > > however, since you seem to be firmly set in your prejudices. > > > > Next, consider crossword puzzles. They can't be copyrighted. They > > are a result of hard work. > > Do you have a citation in support of this proposition? I have certainly > seen copyright notices on collections of puzzles. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 6:42:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F3437B777 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 06:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh20.bfm.org [216.127.220.213]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 08:43:12 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000514084158.0089fb50@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:41:58 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <200005140612.XAA17820@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000514104553.A28453@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <391DDB3E.8DFFD8D0@mindspring.com> <20000514041848.K22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513181415.00890300@mail85.pair.com> <20000514051809.N22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513194018.00898d80@mail85.pair.com> <20000514104553.A28453@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:12 13-05-2000 -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: >Programmers should have unrestricted freedom to pursue material >comforts. Giving away software is not incompatible with this freedom. > >What the BSD's need to do to divert programmer mindshare away from >the popular GPL theme, is effective delivery of the above message. Well put. :) And quite important. My own tendency to take a stand on GPL is motivated by the dictum, "all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." I tend to take an active approach. For example, when I released gracula (graphic counter language), a French gentleman created a number of counters using it. He released them under GPL. I contacted him and asked him to reconsider. He decided it was not worth it because it was "only counters" (what a thing to say to the creator of graphic counter language! ). But at least he added a note to all his counters that while his counters were gpled, gracula (my software) was not. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 6:46: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E00A37B777 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 06:46:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh20.bfm.org [216.127.220.213]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 14 May 2000 08:46:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000514084542.0089f2c0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:45:42 -0500 To: Anatoly Vorobey , "Thomas M. Sommers" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000514024414.B57423@sasami.jurai.net> References: <391E28F8.EB2C7028@mail.ptd.net> <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E28F8.EB2C7028@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:44 14-05-2000 -0400, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >I know. But why can't a game be copyrighted? Isn't it a result of >hard work? Shouldn't the players (or so "that" logic goes) be compensated >for their hard work? Isn't that what professional sport was invented for? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 6:52:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B1437B743 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 06:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rage@cyberwitch.org) Received: from localhost (rage@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e4EDqNs07353; Sun, 14 May 2000 09:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 09:52:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Rhiannon X-Sender: rage@bytor.rush.net To: Haikal Saadh Cc: gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <000001bfbda3$3cfd10c0$92a393cb@timberwolf> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org as a member of the treehugging lovebead-wearing peace-loving 'hippie' generation, i need to say that freedom of choice ..that simple statement which encompasses so much fact and rhetoric, is what keeps us from being both anarchists and fascists. it is the backbone of what allows us to pursue a livelihood to the heights that only we alone can imagine. its the source ...just use it ! lorraine ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ how do you know she's a witch ? * * * rage@cyberwitch.org rage@rush.net rage@free.bsdunix.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 6:59:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 128AE37B743 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 06:59:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 38821 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 13:59:02 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 14 May 2000 13:59:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 11112 invoked by uid 211); 14 May 2000 13:59:02 -0000 Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:29:02 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514192901.B11078@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000514051118.M22405@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <391E2C5B.D4EFB077@mail.ptd.net> <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <391E5B85.B761FFF6@mindspring.com> <20000514105349.A20904@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E5F5A.A8066271@mindspring.com> <20000514041442.A58200@sasami.jurai.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000514041442.A58200@sasami.jurai.net>; from mellon@pobox.com on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 04:14:42AM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'd rather ask Linus why his ego made him name it Linux and why he is so > > clueless about revision control. > > Go ahead and ask him. Tell us what he said. These are good questions, > too. Actually it's rather wellknown that Linus originally called it Freix or something like that, and it was the administrator of his FTP site in Finland who called it linux. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 7:30:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smart.visp-europe.psi.com (smart.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E90A37B614 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 07:30:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from ip116.berlin63.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.63.116] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by smart.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #1) id 12qzPd-0004f6-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 14 May 2000 16:30:34 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 6528E224A; Sun, 14 May 2000 16:30:19 +0200 (CEST) To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org.nospam Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <391D4DAD.FD80980A@picusnet.com> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005132348.QAA17056@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 14 May 2000 16:30:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Sat, 13 May 2000 16:48:16 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Canyonlands" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma writes on freebsd-chat: > Are you implying that communism and free speech are antonyms ? I think, > communism and free speech are quite compatible, at least in theory. In theory, yes, but I have yet to see a free-speech compatible implementation of communism. Of the three main ones China, North Korea, and the Soviet including its derivatives, the two former are deploying crude protection mechanisms, and the latter crashed when it ceased to do so. -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 8: 3:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praseodumium.btinternet.com (praseodumium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5802E37B6A2 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 08:03:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.157.136] (helo=parish.my.domain) by tantalum with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12quwH-0002TH-00; Sun, 14 May 2000 10:43:58 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00879; Sun, 14 May 2000 10:43:50 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:43:50 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Yowza! Message-ID: <20000514104350.A232@parish> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from conrads@home.com on Sat, May 13, 2000 at 05:13:43PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 05:13:43PM -0500, Conrad Sabatier wrote: > Just went out and plunked down today for a nice new ***1000 MHz*** > machine. Yes, that's right; you read right: one _GIGA_Hertz! An AMD > Athlon, to be precise. With 256 MB RAM as well. > > Un-effin'-believable. I built the entire XFree86 source (including > aout libs) in just a few minutes. > Have you timed ``make buildworld'' and building a GENERIC kernel - just to make us really sick ;) > *THIS* is the way to do FreeBSD! :-) > > Conrad "This must be what heaven is like" Sabatier > > ---------------------------------- > E-Mail: Conrad Sabatier > Date: 13-May-00 > Time: 17:09:50 > > This message was sent by XFMail > ---------------------------------- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 8: 5:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 8232A37B6A2; Sun, 14 May 2000 08:05:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: redprince@redprince.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20000514084158.0089fb50@mail85.pair.com> (redprince@redprince.net) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000514150551.8232A37B6A2@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well put. :) And quite important. My own tendency to take a stand on GPL is > motivated by the dictum, "all that is needed for evil to triumph is for > good people to do nothing." > Adam, please, a little perspective. GPL and Stallman are not evil. Clearly do not agree with them, but debasing the meaning of the word evil is the wrong thing to do. Consider some of the evil behaviors people have engaged in, and compare them to the GPL and Stallman. The same word should not be used to describe both. Once a person characterized those that have different views as evil, discussion is no longer reasonable and people begin to turn to other methods to deal with what they have determined to be evil. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 8:11:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com [24.6.21.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B6F737B6A2 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 08:11:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00580; Sun, 14 May 2000 10:09:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000514104350.A232@parish> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:09:58 -0500 (CDT) Organization: @Home Network From: Conrad Sabatier To: Mark Ovens Subject: Re: Yowza! Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-May-00 Mark Ovens wrote: > > Have you timed ``make buildworld'' and building a GENERIC kernel - > just to make us really sick ;) You don't really want me to do that, do you? :-) God, this is so wonderful. Installing packages via the ports collection is so fast now. And I've got all this disc space to play with, too. :-) ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Conrad Sabatier Date: 14-May-00 Time: 10:08:15 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 9: 3:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6919837B75A for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 09:03:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA97395; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:03:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:03:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200005141603.SAA97395@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8fkslb$105l$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 13 May 2000 at 15:16:19 +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > Just for the record, me and most of my friends pronounce TeX > > like the German "Technik" (sorry, I don't know an English word > > that has that sound). > > I know it's not correct, but it's much easier for my German > > tongue. :-) > > Based on the TeXbook, that would be correct. It isn't. According to the TeXbook, it's pronounced like the Greek letter "chi". Germans usually don't pronounce "chi" correctly either. > "It's the 'ch' sound in ... German words like ach". What's the > problem? The "ch" sound in the German words "Technik" ("ich", "echt", ...) and "ach" ("suchen", "Krach", ...) is different. I think it depends on the vowel preceding the "ch". In the first case, the sound is produced by the middle part of the tongue (between tongue and palate), in the second case it is produced by the back part of the tongue (it comes from the throat). The latter is the correct pronunciation for "chi" and "TeX". Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 10: 1:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093A937BDD8 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 10:01:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([200.41.111.152]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA457B; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:59:51 -0400 Message-ID: <391ED927.B9EA52A4@asme.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 11:49:43 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <3.0.6.32.20000513182440.00892db0@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513225331.0089d150@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > At 19:51 13-05-2000 -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > standard corporate lawyering includes the adoption of these > >agreements as a standard company policy. those that do not agree are > >encouraged to seek employment elsewhere. > > Which is why I work as a nursing assistant. I was not willing to sign my > brains away and was subsequently "laid off" and could not get another > programming job anywhere in Pittsburgh (where I lived at the time). > Good thing that I am a *Mechanical* Engineer. Companies here have a note on their contract that states that you have a position of "responsability" in the organization. This responsability implicitly means that you might have to stay extra time or even work on Saturdays and Sundays. Bank employees are especially exploited by these contracts. Eventually, I completely turned around the rule..I got off early because I had already fulfilled my responsabilities. I worked very hard but my time was so well organized my boss thought the job could be redistributed among his other engineers and my contract was not renewed. Nowadays I laugh thinking of the amount of problems he probably brought on to the company in his search for efficiency. As I see it today, companies don't own your time, they want the results of your work. Any staff manager that wants to see his employees working ALL the time should have a careful reading of "The Goal". If you want to keep your patent, I doubt anyone will notice if you keep a low quality implementation for the company and a better "experimental" version for yourself. Yes, you are hiding your best abilities from the company..but if the company is not treating you in a friendly manner anyway. cheers, Pedro. > All that after three major computer industry employment agencies felt sure > they'd have no way finding an excellent job for a programmer with my > experience. > > Adam > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 11:17: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C0F37B7F1; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:16:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26373; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:16:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA17066; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17062; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:16:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:16:52 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: redprince@redprince.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514150551.8232A37B6A2@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 May 2000, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Clearly do not agree with them, but debasing the meaning of the word > evil is the wrong thing to do. Consider some of the evil behaviors Do I read this right? The GPL and Stallman are worse than evil? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 11:17: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praseodumium.btinternet.com (praseodumium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2ED37BE14 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.111.63] (helo=parish.my.domain) by praseodumium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12r2wf-0003LE-00; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:16:54 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00487; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:16:44 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 19:16:33 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Yowza! Message-ID: <20000514191633.A233@parish> References: <20000514104350.A232@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from conrads@home.com on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 10:09:58AM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 14, 2000 at 10:09:58AM -0500, Conrad Sabatier wrote: > > On 14-May-00 Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > Have you timed ``make buildworld'' and building a GENERIC kernel - > > just to make us really sick ;) > > You don't really want me to do that, do you? :-) > Yes :) The fastest GENERIC kernel build I know of is someone building a quad (PII) Xeon server - 28 seconds! That was ~3.2-R. > God, this is so wonderful. Installing packages via the ports > collection is so fast now. And I've got all this disc space to play > with, too. :-) > > ---------------------------------- > E-Mail: Conrad Sabatier > Date: 14-May-00 > Time: 10:08:15 > > This message was sent by XFMail > ---------------------------------- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 12:10:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com [24.6.21.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C2F37B6CC for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:10:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04234; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:08:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000514191633.A233@parish> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:08:46 -0500 (CDT) Organization: @Home Network From: Conrad Sabatier To: Mark Ovens Subject: Re: Yowza! Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-May-00 Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sun, May 14, 2000 at 10:09:58AM -0500, Conrad Sabatier wrote: >> >> On 14-May-00 Mark Ovens wrote: >> > >> > Have you timed ``make buildworld'' and building a GENERIC kernel - >> > just to make us really sick ;) >> >> You don't really want me to do that, do you? :-) >> > > Yes :) > > The fastest GENERIC kernel build I know of is someone building a quad > (PII) Xeon server - 28 seconds! That was ~3.2-R. OK. As soon as I can tear myself away for a minute or two , I'll kill X and all the other stuff I'm running (mp3 player using less than 1% CPU!) and see how she does. -- Conrad Sabatier http://members.home.net/conrads/ ICQ# 1147270 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 12:18: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id BC58437BC45; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:18:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: howardjp@glue.umd.edu Cc: redprince@redprince.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from James Howard on Sun, 14 May 2000 14:16:52 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000514191800.BC58437BC45@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 12:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Clearly do not agree with them, but debasing the meaning of the word > > evil is the wrong thing to do. Consider some of the evil behaviors > > Do I read this right? The GPL and Stallman are worse than evil? > you are not reading this right. The GPL and Stallman are not evil. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 12:56:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9F437B6F8 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 12:56:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA35121; Sun, 14 May 2000 21:55:56 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:55:56 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Juergen Nickelsen Cc: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 May 2000, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > Arun Sharma writes on freebsd-chat: > > > Are you implying that communism and free speech are antonyms ? I think, > > communism and free speech are quite compatible, at least in theory. > > In theory, yes, but I have yet to see a free-speech compatible > implementation of communism. Of the three main ones China, North > Korea, and the Soviet including its derivatives, the two former are > deploying crude protection mechanisms, and the latter crashed when > it ceased to do so. > It didn't. And the majority of the area covered still doesn't have free speech. The role of free speech was rather secondary to non-existant, which is to be expected in a society where evrybody is used to getting persecuted for not fitting in, not just unallowed speech. > -- > Juergen Nickelsen > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 14: 7:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B77437B8FA for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([200.41.111.50]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA746F; Sun, 14 May 2000 16:06:00 -0400 Message-ID: <391F1640.4C878B19@asme.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:10:24 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <20000514191800.BC58437BC45@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > ... > > > you are not reading this right. The GPL and Stallman are not evil. > It depends on your definition of evil. If it's in religious terms, him saying "there is no God" is probably sufficient to consider him evil. On social terms, an evil person is someone that receives satisfaction in harming others, so I could say he is evil. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 14:30:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id F226137B752; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:30:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: giffunip@asme.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <391F1640.4C878B19@asme.org> (giffunip@asme.org) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000514213039.F226137B752@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > It depends on your definition of evil. If it's in religious terms, him > saying "there is no God" is probably sufficient to consider him evil. i dont believe that atheists are evil. i am not too concerned with what people believe, its how they act that matters to me (speech is an act, especially if one convinces others to act). > > On social terms, an evil person is someone that receives satisfaction in > harming others, so I could say he is evil. > Stallman "receives satisfaction in harming others"? I dont know what factual information this is based on....some have written that Stallman has an agenda that he keeps secret. I have not seen any reason to believe that. (almost by definition, no?) Stallman has done a lot of good for the Open Source community. Look at the number of programs that people use in which he has had a pivotal role. If he had not done the job, someone else may have. The fact remains that he did, and therefore those that use software developed by/for the FSF owe him a debt of gratitude. At least that's how I view it especially while writing this email using emacs compiled with gcc. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 15:29:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980D337B939; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28602; Sun, 14 May 2000 15:28:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 15:28:19 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: A bunch of KDE python applets Message-ID: <20000514152819.A28583@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I added a bunch of KDE python applets to my projects page. You need the py-kde port installed to run them. http://sharmas.dhs.org/~adsharma/projects.html - KXMLViewer a KDE based XML viewer written in Python - KLogViewer a KDE based viewer for viewing syslog messages - KHM a KDE based hardware monitor. The only thing it does now, is to display motherboard/CPU temperatures on a ABIT BP6 board. All of them carry a BSD license, if you care about it. -Arun PS: What's the right place to announce these trivial applets that could be useful to many others ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 16:12:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA0537B58F for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 16:12:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.226.229.21]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA167A; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:11:18 -0400 Message-ID: <391F3407.10D69B19@asme.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:17:27 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <20000514213039.F226137B752@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > > > > > It depends on your definition of evil. If it's in religious terms, him > > saying "there is no God" is probably sufficient to consider him evil. > > i dont believe that atheists are evil. i am not too concerned > with what people believe, its how they act that matters to me (speech > is an act, especially if one convinces others to act). > It's a matter of religion...and those are deep waters. My understanding is that the most important of the commandments is to love God above everything else. Yo deny him, and to make people lose faith is a serious offense. > > Stallman "receives satisfaction in harming others"? I dont > know what factual information this is based on.... He is happy with the work he has done, hasn't he? He shows in his writings hatred against commercial software writers. He harms commercial software with his license and he knows it. Pablo Escobar, whom you've probably heard of, was also thought to be a saint in Medellin because he built houses for many poor people while he was on political campaign. I don't have any idea how many North American parents still cry when they see what their kids did with that money. I am not saying Stallman is Hitler, but the fact that he does some good things and that he is popular doesn't mean he is not evil. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 16:23:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A4D2637BA61 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 16:23:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 44014 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 23:23:22 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 14 May 2000 23:23:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 27907 invoked by uid 211); 14 May 2000 23:23:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 04:53:19 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000515045317.A27171@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000514213039.F226137B752@hub.freebsd.org> <391F3407.10D69B19@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <391F3407.10D69B19@asme.org>; from giffunip@asme.org on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 06:17:27PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > i dont believe that atheists are evil. i am not too concerned > > with what people believe, its how they act that matters to me (speech > > is an act, especially if one convinces others to act). > > > > It's a matter of religion...and those are deep waters. My understanding > is that the most important of the commandments is to love God above > everything else. Yo deny him, and to make people lose faith is a serious > offense. Become a Buddhist. You aren't asked to have belief in anything, only to act properly and have compassion. If Stallman is evil because he is atheist, a huge number of other eminent people are evil too. > > Stallman "receives satisfaction in harming others"? I dont > > know what factual information this is based on.... > > He is happy with the work he has done, hasn't he? He shows in his > writings hatred against commercial software writers. He harms commercial > software with his license and he knows it. Pablo Escobar, whom you've > probably heard of, was also thought to be a saint in Medellin because he > built houses for many poor people while he was on political campaign. I > don't have any idea how many North American parents still cry when they > see what their kids did with that money. > > I am not saying Stallman is Hitler, but the fact that he does some good > things and that he is popular doesn't mean he is not evil. This is atrocious. How does his license harm commercial software? Would you prefer that he used a commercial license? The people who wrote that software chose that license, if you don't like it don't use it, but don't argue that it harms you merely by existing. He argues against commercial software, but you're free to agree with him or not. You can't call a man evil for holding some opinions and voicing them. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 16:26:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kris.huntsvilleal.com (kris.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD5137BA08 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 16:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kris.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA49031; Sun, 14 May 2000 17:28:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:28:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Brett Glass Cc: Conrad Sabatier , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: Yowza! In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000514054644.0458d840@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How can they distinguish a typical crash of NT from a bad chip? ;-) They can't. The chip is electrically tested in a rig and then placed in a PC and booted. If it's an NT failure, I think it goes to a special bad parts pile. Bear in mind that this would be the same pile as all of the other mysterious failures. I haven't seen one BSOD at work. I think they do a good job of keeping the NT config locked down. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 16:38: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id AB9B337BA82; Sun, 14 May 2000 16:38:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: giffunip@asme.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <391F3407.10D69B19@asme.org> (giffunip@asme.org) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000514233807.AB9B337BA82@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org okay, one last try. > > > > i dont believe that atheists are evil. i am not too concerned > > with what people believe, its how they act that matters to me (speech > > is an act, especially if one convinces others to act). > > > > It's a matter of religion...and those are deep waters. My understanding > is that the most important of the commandments is to love God above > everything else. Yo deny him, and to make people lose faith is a serious > offense. the faith vs works debate has raged for centuries. i prefer the one that clothes and feeds the poor and may or may not have any faith over the believer that doesnt quite get around to helping others. Perhaps I am wrong, or you may think me evil, to espouse such a position. > > Stallman "receives satisfaction in harming others"? I dont > > know what factual information this is based on.... > > He is happy with the work he has done, hasn't he? He shows in his > writings hatred against commercial software writers. He harms commercial > software with his license and he knows it. i have never seen any hate in his writings. his critics often talk of hate. you removed the part of my email concerning showing the man a little gratitude for the software that he has helped make freely available to you. i am interested in your thoughts on that matter. > Pablo Escobar, whom you've > probably heard of, was also thought to be a saint in Medellin because he > built houses for many poor people while he was on political campaign. I > don't have any idea how many North American parents still cry when they > see what their kids did with that money. Pablo Escobar is not to blame for the illegal narcotics habits in this country. He certainly is to blame for his role in making these substances available. Differentiating between the two is important. Otherwise, one might come to believe that getting rid of Pablo Escobar would solve the problem. He's gone. The problem remains. > I am not saying Stallman is Hitler, but the fact that he does some good > things and that he is popular doesn't mean he is not evil. Isnt there a Usenet rule about invoking Hitler in a thread? He is not evil. Clearly, you dont agree with his ideas on software availability/distribution. That does not make him evil. Well, I have said my piece/peace. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 17:41:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03C437B505 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 17:41:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA09050; Mon, 15 May 2000 10:11:42 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:11:42 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: Mark Ovens , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yowza! Message-ID: <20000515101142.A9000@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000514104350.A232@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 14 May 2000 at 10:09:58 -0500, Conrad Sabatier wrote: > > On 14-May-00 Mark Ovens wrote: >> >> Have you timed ``make buildworld'' and building a GENERIC kernel - >> just to make us really sick ;) > > You don't really want me to do that, do you? :-) I'd be interested. My 750 MHz Athlon takes almost exactly 60 minutes. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 18: 6:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D16A37B81F for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:06:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:05:24 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Anatoly Vorobey" , "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:06:32 -0700 Message-ID: <001801bfbe09$ced4d120$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It is the choice of the author to use the words "GPL version 2 (or any > later version) applies to this software" or "GPL version 2, and solely > that version, applies to this software", or nothing (which implies the > earlier choice). The author has the choice. > > Anatoly Vorobey, Do you have Stallman's permission to make and use a derived work from the GPL? The GPL is copyrighted after all. You don't think Stallman would give up the incredible power he has -- he can change the licensing terms of every single piece of software covered by the GPL at his whim. Not even the individual authors can do as the GPL reserves the right only for him. DS PS: If I had to contest the GPL in court, one argument I would definitely make is that the copyright on the GPL prevents people from negotiating terms. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 18: 6:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE80937B8E5 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:05:20 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Kris Kirby" , "Alfred Perlstein" Cc: "Conrad Sabatier" , Subject: RE: Yowza! Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:06:27 -0700 Message-ID: <001601bfbe09$cc3239d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It a new-style proc or old style? Old-style is external SRAM; new style is > everything in one chip. I understand if you remove the case you void the > warranty.... Last I checked, such provisions were not enforceable in the United States. If the chip fails because of a defect in manufacturing (which is about the only reason it could fail unless you break it), they can't exclude you from warranty coverage for anything you did that didn't actually cause it to fail. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 18: 6:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68AA37B63A for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:06:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:05:22 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:06:30 -0700 Message-ID: <001701bfbe09$cd9a2e40$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513225331.0089d150@mail85.pair.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 19:51 13-05-2000 -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > standard corporate lawyering includes the adoption of these > >agreements as a standard company policy. those that do not agree are > >encouraged to seek employment elsewhere. > Which is why I work as a nursing assistant. I was not willing to sign my > brains away and was subsequently "laid off" and could not get another > programming job anywhere in Pittsburgh (where I lived at the time). > All that after three major computer industry employment agencies felt sure > they'd have no way finding an excellent job for a programmer with my > experience. For what it's worth, I've had about 8 different programming jobs at various companies from small to large in the past decade. Not one of them asked me to sign any agreement other than one which stated that what I specifically made for my employer at their direction belonged to them. Why are you going to "major computer industry employment agencies"? I know about ten companies I can list offhand who are desperate for competent programmers. About half of them will let you work from home and about a third of them don't want you to sign anything at all. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 18:18:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2C9237B9E0 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([200.41.111.198]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2D90; Sun, 14 May 2000 20:17:08 -0400 Message-ID: <391F516E.50724051@asme.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:22:54 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <20000514213039.F226137B752@hub.freebsd.org> <391F3407.10D69B19@asme.org> <20000515045317.A27171@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > i dont believe that atheists are evil. i am not too concerned > > > with what people believe, its how they act that matters to me (speech > > > is an act, especially if one convinces others to act). > > > > > > > It's a matter of religion...and those are deep waters. My understanding > > is that the most important of the commandments is to love God above > > everything else. Yo deny him, and to make people lose faith is a serious > > offense. > > Become a Buddhist. You aren't asked to have belief in anything, only > to act properly and have compassion. If Stallman is evil because he > is atheist, a huge number of other eminent people are evil too. > FWIW, in Karate I was taught that Buddhism is not really a Religion, but rather a philosophy. Buddhism is not an option for me...I have real life reasons to believe in God. > > > Stallman "receives satisfaction in harming others"? I dont > > > know what factual information this is based on.... > > > > He is happy with the work he has done, hasn't he? He shows in his > > writings hatred against commercial software writers. He harms commercial > > software with his license and he knows it. Pablo Escobar, whom you've > > probably heard of, was also thought to be a saint in Medellin because he > > built houses for many poor people while he was on political campaign. I > > don't have any idea how many North American parents still cry when they > > see what their kids did with that money. > > > > I am not saying Stallman is Hitler, but the fact that he does some good > > things and that he is popular doesn't mean he is not evil. > > This is atrocious. How does his license harm commercial software? > Would you prefer that he used a commercial license? The people who > wrote that software chose that license, if you don't like it don't use > it, but don't argue that it harms you merely by existing. He argues > against commercial software, but you're free to agree with him or not. > You can't call a man evil for holding some opinions and voicing them. > http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/gpl-evil.html cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 18:28:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693F237B85E for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:28:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r0.bfm.org [216.127.220.96]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 14 May 2000 20:29:00 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000514202750.008c7790@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:27:50 -0500 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000514150551.8232A37B6A2@hub.freebsd.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000514084158.0089fb50@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:05 14-05-2000 -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > please, a little perspective. GPL and Stallman are not evil. >Clearly do not agree with them, but debasing the meaning of the word >evil is the wrong thing to do. Consider some of the evil behaviors >people have engaged in, and compare them to the GPL and Stallman. The >same word should not be used to describe both. Once a person >characterized those that have different views as evil, discussion is >no longer reasonable and people begin to turn to other methods to deal >with what they have determined to be evil. It's all relative. It is not about disagreeing. I believe GPL to be destructive and dangerous. Whether that is Stallman's intent is irrelevant. If we just sit quietly and do nothing, GPL can cause serious damage to the future of programming. My use of the dictum had nothing to do with religion (as further discussion seems to imply). For what it's worth, I did not say Stallman was (or was not) evil. I do perceive the effects of GPL as destructive. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 18:43:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A192B37B54D for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r0.bfm.org [216.127.220.96]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 14 May 2000 20:44:35 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000514204324.008cd640@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:43:24 -0500 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: In-Reply-To: <001701bfbe09$cd9a2e40$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <3.0.6.32.20000513225331.0089d150@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:06 14-05-2000 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Why are you going to "major computer industry employment agencies"? I'm not (not now, anyway). That was seven years ago when I was laid off. I went to one of the agencies the moment I got laid off. Meanwhile I moved to a place with no need for programmers (a small town in Northern Wisconsin). I moved here for reasons that had nothing to do with my career. Those reasons have "expired" recently, so I am thinking about getting out of here. I found one refreshing change about working "at the bottom." No intrigues. But it's definitely time for me to move on. >I know >about ten companies I can list offhand who are desperate for competent >programmers. About half of them will let you work from home and about a >third of them don't want you to sign anything at all. Well? What are they? I do hear about high tech companies looking for good programmers. I am geographically very far from high tech companies right now, so any such list would be useful. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 18:45:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C1737B54D for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([200.41.111.198]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3334; Sun, 14 May 2000 20:43:55 -0400 Message-ID: <391F57E0.D356FEC0@asme.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:50:24 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <20000514233807.AB9B337BA82@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > ... > the faith vs works debate has raged for centuries. i prefer > the one that clothes and feeds the poor and may or may not have any > faith over the believer that doesnt quite get around to helping > others. Perhaps I am wrong, or you may think me evil, to espouse such > a position. > I don't think you are evil...the problem is that people that sin (RMS in this case) rarely do it consciously..they almost always think they are doing something good but they aren't. > > i have never seen any hate in his writings. his critics often > talk of hate. you removed the part of my email concerning showing > the man a little gratitude for the software that he has helped make > freely available to you. i am interested in your thoughts on that > matter. > We do owe much to RMS; I recognize the free software concept he created is invaluable for the world community. I have always thought that RMS has good intentions, but I have the right to disagree on his way of enforcing his ideas. I try to avoid using GPL'd software (yes I do prefer commercial software), however this is impossible since there is no reasonable replacement to software like gcc. I don't contribute to GPL'd software either, but I don't think there is nothing wrong in using it even when I don't like the license. When I read the license it was also clear that the license only applies to modifying and redistributing the software but not on it's use. In sum I thank him for the good software but there isn't much difference between a packaged binary and software covered by the GPL. > > Pablo Escobar is not to blame for the illegal narcotics habits > in this country. He certainly is to blame for his role in making > these substances available. Differentiating between the two is > important. Otherwise, one might come to believe that getting rid of > Pablo Escobar would solve the problem. He's gone. The problem > remains. > I am Colombian. You don't have idea of what you are talking about. Northamericans are the only ones to blame for making the substances available. We have never cared a bit about who exports illegal drugs; the Escobar problem became real when he planted bombs in the main cities. People like him started rotting the country and soon it was too late... > > I am not saying Stallman is Hitler, but the fact that he does some good > > things and that he is popular doesn't mean he is not evil. > > Isnt there a Usenet rule about invoking Hitler in a thread? > This is not Usenet :-)...Ah well, I didn't know ...sorry. Email doesn't reflect it but I am not angry with anyone...we all do evil things all the time without knowing. > Well, I have said my piece/peace. > Take it easy... cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 18:50:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCA437B5DD for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 18:50:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r0.bfm.org [216.127.220.96]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 14 May 2000 20:51:34 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000514205024.00898920@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:50:24 -0500 To: "David Schwartz" , "Anatoly Vorobey" , "Thomas M. Sommers" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: In-Reply-To: <001801bfbe09$ced4d120$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:06 14-05-2000 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > PS: If I had to contest the GPL in court, one argument I would definitely >make is that the copyright on the GPL prevents people from negotiating >terms. I would probably also argue that GPL is not valid because it deliberately uses the word "copyleft". It is clearly anti-copyright, hence should not enjoy protection by copyright law. By the way, there has been a heated discussion on the Unicode list recently: Someone is proposing to have the copyleft symbol official incorporated into Unicode. Whatever that symbol is (I have never seen it). Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 19: 5:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA6D37B741 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03293; Sun, 14 May 2000 22:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA13507; Sun, 14 May 2000 22:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13502; Sun, 14 May 2000 22:05:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:05:27 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: David Schwartz , Anatoly Vorobey , "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000514205024.00898920@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 May 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > By the way, there has been a heated discussion on the Unicode list > recently: Someone is proposing to have the copyleft symbol official > incorporated into Unicode. Whatever that symbol is (I have never seen it). It's like the normal (C) except enclosed in a full circle and facing the other direction. I hope that gets defeated. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 19:29:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB5137B950 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA00750 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 15 May 2000 12:00:19 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:00:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? Message-ID: <20000515120019.A541@freebie.lemis.com> References: <8fkslb$105l$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200005141603.SAA97395@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200005141603.SAA97395@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 14 May 2000 at 18:03:11 +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > In list.freebsd-chat Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Saturday, 13 May 2000 at 15:16:19 +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: >>> Just for the record, me and most of my friends pronounce TeX >>> like the German "Technik" (sorry, I don't know an English word >>> that has that sound). >>> I know it's not correct, but it's much easier for my German >>> tongue. :-) >> >> Based on the TeXbook, that would be correct. > > It isn't. According to the TeXbook, it's pronounced like the > Greek letter "chi". Germans usually don't pronounce "chi" > correctly either. > >> "It's the 'ch' sound in ... German words like ach". What's the >> problem? > > The "ch" sound in the German words "Technik" ("ich", "echt", > ...) and "ach" ("suchen", "Krach", ...) is different. I think > it depends on the vowel preceding the "ch". Indeed. But this is a detail which probably escaped Knuth's attention. > In the first case, the sound is produced by the middle part of the > tongue (between tongue and palate), in the second case it is > produced by the back part of the tongue (it comes from the throat). > The latter is the correct pronunciation for "chi" and "TeX". What vowel is in TeX? What you're effectively saying is that you'd pronounce "TeX" and "TeXnik" with different sounds. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 19:39: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 713FA37B741 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 19:39:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r24.bfm.org [216.127.220.120]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 14 May 2000 21:39:41 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000514213830.0089de40@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 21:38:30 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Rahul Siddharthan From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <391F516E.50724051@asme.org> References: <20000514213039.F226137B752@hub.freebsd.org> <391F3407.10D69B19@asme.org> <20000515045317.A27171@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:22 14-05-2000 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >> Become a Buddhist. You aren't asked to have belief in anything, only >> to act properly and have compassion. If Stallman is evil because he >> is atheist, a huge number of other eminent people are evil too. >> > >FWIW, in Karate I was taught that Buddhism is not really a Religion, but >rather a philosophy. Buddhism is not an option for me...I have real life >reasons to believe in God. Hehe, what a range of topics we are covering in this chat. :) I agree that Buddhism is not really a religion, though I would not call it a philosophy either. It's much easier to say what Buddhism is not than what it is. :) I've met Buddhists who believe in God. In fact, in Pittsburgh (isn't that where you're headed?) I met a man who was professor of Catholic spirituality at Duquesne University, and a Tibetan Buddhist at the same time. Certainly an exception rather than a rule, but meeting him was fascinating. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 20:23:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8451E37B54D for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 20:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA52357 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 14 May 2000 23:23:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 23:23:53 -0400 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000514232353.F50543@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 May 2000, James Howard wrote: > On Sun, 14 May 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > By the way, there has been a heated discussion on the Unicode list > > recently: Someone is proposing to have the copyleft symbol official > > incorporated into Unicode. Whatever that symbol is (I have never seen it). > > It's like the normal (C) except enclosed in a full circle and facing the > other direction. I hope that gets defeated. So _that's_ what this sticker is. A cow-orker went to a Linux expo in NYC a couple of months back. He came back with stickers, pens, CDs, and the usual give-aways. To bad he didn't bring back one of those she-daemons that caused such a stir. Anyway, he gave me a couple of stickers with a penguin and the copyright symbol. For the life of me, I could not figure out why they'd made stickers of the penguin blancing on its beak, upside-down on a copyright symbol. Now I get it. The penguin is right-side up balancing the copyleft symbol on its beak. Ahhhhh... Wonder if anyone else wonders why the penguin is upside down. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 20:38:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D927337B667 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 20:38:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.134.31]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA47FE; Sun, 14 May 2000 22:36:47 -0400 Message-ID: <391F7243.40F076AF@asme.org> Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:42:59 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <3.0.6.32.20000513225331.0089d150@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000514204324.008cd640@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > ... > > Well? What are they? I do hear about high tech companies looking for good > programmers. I am geographically very far from high tech companies right > now, so any such list would be useful. > Some friends recommended: http://www.Headhunter.net/ There's also a jobs list on FreeBSD.org though. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 14 21: 4:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C6FA37B637 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 21:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 46354 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 03:57:46 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 15 May 2000 03:57:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 13841 invoked by uid 211); 15 May 2000 03:57:44 -0000 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:27:44 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000515092742.A13815@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000514233807.AB9B337BA82@hub.freebsd.org> <391F57E0.D356FEC0@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <391F57E0.D356FEC0@asme.org>; from giffunip@asme.org on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 08:50:24PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I try to avoid using GPL'd software (yes I do prefer commercial > software), however this is impossible since there is no reasonable > replacement to software like gcc. There are lots of commercial replacements. Don't you prefer them? :) Anyway, this thread has wandered all over the place, time to pipe down now I think... R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 0: 5: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (chicago.mooseriver.com [209.133.53.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A1737B5BB for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 00:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA37637 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 May 2000 00:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200005150705.AAA37637@agora.bafug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 00:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 0:10:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F1537B506 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 00:10:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: by techunix.technion.ac.il (Postfix, from userid 14309) id 0991586AC; Mon, 15 May 2000 10:10:00 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:09:59 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <001801bfbe09$ced4d120$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <001801bfbe09$ced4d120$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 06:06:32PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, David Schwartz, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 06:06:32PM -0700: > > > It is the choice of the author to use the words "GPL version 2 (or any > > later version) applies to this software" or "GPL version 2, and solely > > that version, applies to this software", or nothing (which implies the > > earlier choice). The author has the choice. > > > > Anatoly Vorobey, > > Do you have Stallman's permission to make and use a derived work from the > GPL? The GPL is copyrighted after all. I think you didn't understand what I was saying. You don't have to modify the GPL in order to prevent later versions of it from applying to your product. You need to *preface* the GPL with the statement that your product is covered by this specific license that follows and no other versions of it. The text inside GPL which allows a user to apply a later version will only work if you did *not* preface the GPL by such a statement (or if you prefaced it by explicitly saying that later versions will apply). So, for instance, look at the COPYING file of mutt: This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. Now if you were to specify explicitly that only the version 2 applies, a user could not use a later version. If you didn't specify anything, the user *could* usera later version by the power of the default clause in the GPL. > You don't think Stallman would give > up the incredible power he has -- he can change the licensing terms of every > single piece of software covered by the GPL at his whim. Not even the > individual authors can do as the GPL reserves the right only for him. That is also completely incorrect. An individual author *always* has the right to reissue his product with any other license he chooses -- proprietary, free, whatever. The GPL's restrictions don't apply to the copyright holder. This has been used extensively in fact (by the author of the GPLed Ghostscript, for instance, who issues commercial licenses for early versions with new technology). -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 0:26:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9224037B57F for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 00:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 48448 invoked by uid 211); 15 May 2000 07:26:29 -0000 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:56:28 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000515125628.A48320@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <001801bfbe09$ced4d120$021d85d1@youwant.to> <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il>; from mellon@pobox.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 10:09:59AM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In fact this kind of head-in-the-sand misinformation about the GPL, which is so common in the BSD world, is why I didn't want to get into the argument again. This is not the only kind of misinformation: people also keep alleging that the GPL forces you to give your program to anyone who asks for it, and so on. Nobody who's read the GPL can believe such things, and it's not worth arguing with people who haven't. The "is RMS a communist" argument was much more interesting :) R. Anatoly Vorobey said on May 15, 2000 at 10:09:59: > You, David Schwartz, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 06:06:32PM -0700: > > > > > It is the choice of the author to use the words "GPL version 2 (or any > > > later version) applies to this software" or "GPL version 2, and solely > > > that version, applies to this software", or nothing (which implies the > > > earlier choice). The author has the choice. > > > > > > Anatoly Vorobey, > > > > Do you have Stallman's permission to make and use a derived work from the > > GPL? The GPL is copyrighted after all. > > I think you didn't understand what I was saying. You don't have to modify > the GPL in order to prevent later versions of it from applying to your > product. You need to *preface* the GPL with the statement that your > product is covered by this specific license that follows and no other > versions of it. The text inside GPL which allows a user to apply a later > version will only work if you did *not* preface the GPL by such a statement > (or if you prefaced it by explicitly saying that later versions will apply). > > So, for instance, look at the COPYING file of mutt: > > This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify > it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by > the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or > (at your option) any later version. > > Now if you were to specify explicitly that only the version 2 applies, > a user could not use a later version. If you didn't specify anything, > the user *could* usera later version by the power of the default clause > in the GPL. > > > You don't think Stallman would give > > up the incredible power he has -- he can change the licensing terms of every > > single piece of software covered by the GPL at his whim. Not even the > > individual authors can do as the GPL reserves the right only for him. > > That is also completely incorrect. An individual author *always* has > the right to reissue his product with any other license he chooses -- > proprietary, free, whatever. The GPL's restrictions don't apply to the > copyright holder. This has been used extensively in fact (by the author > of the GPLed Ghostscript, for instance, who issues commercial licenses > for early versions with new technology). > > -- > Anatoly Vorobey, > mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ > "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 2:30: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A61537B545 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 02:29:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12rH6l-0007W1-00; Mon, 15 May 2000 11:24:15 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:24:15 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000515112415.A28842@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <001801bfbe09$ced4d120$021d85d1@youwant.to> <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000515125628.A48320@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000515125628.A48320@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 12:56:28PM +0530 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 2000-05-15 (12:56), Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > In fact this kind of head-in-the-sand misinformation about the GPL, > which is so common in the BSD world, is why I didn't want to get into > the argument again. This is not the only kind of misinformation: > people also keep alleging that the GPL forces you to give your program > to anyone who asks for it, and so on. Nobody who's read the GPL can > believe such things, and it's not worth arguing with people who haven't. Now, I don't want to spark off another debate, and I've been pressing ^D to kill this thread repeatedly, but reading your statement, I don't see how what was said was 'head-in-the-sand misinformation'. It seems pretty obvious that the mutt COPYING file does indeed say that you can use GPL version 2, or later, at your discretion. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a COPYING file that doesn't have the 'or later'. Where was the misinformation? Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner License Debator In Chief, Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 3:16: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC5C37B67C for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 03:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: by techunix.technion.ac.il (Postfix, from userid 14309) id 382D6864A; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:15:58 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <20000515131558.61220@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:15:58 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <001801bfbe09$ced4d120$021d85d1@youwant.to> <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000515125628.A48320@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000515112415.A28842@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <20000515112415.A28842@mithrandr.moria.org>; from Neil Blakey-Milner on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 11:24:15AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Neil Blakey-Milner, were spotted writing this on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 11:24:15AM +0200: > On Mon 2000-05-15 (12:56), Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > In fact this kind of head-in-the-sand misinformation about the GPL, > > which is so common in the BSD world, is why I didn't want to get into > > the argument again. This is not the only kind of misinformation: > > people also keep alleging that the GPL forces you to give your program > > to anyone who asks for it, and so on. Nobody who's read the GPL can > > believe such things, and it's not worth arguing with people who haven't. > > Now, I don't want to spark off another debate, and I've been pressing ^D > to kill this thread repeatedly, but reading your statement, I don't see > how what was said was 'head-in-the-sand misinformation'. > > It seems pretty obvious that the mutt COPYING file does indeed say that > you can use GPL version 2, or later, at your discretion. In fact, I > don't think I've ever seen a COPYING file that doesn't have the 'or > later'. > > Where was the misinformation? It was stated that you, the author, didn't have a choice, and could not use the GPL (without modifying it) and avoid allowing your users to choose a later version. That statement was not true. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 7:59:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8FE37B71E for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 07:59:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA46393; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:59:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? References: <200005141603.SAA97395@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 May 2000 16:59:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: Oliver Fromme's message of "Sun, 14 May 2000 18:03:11 +0200 (CEST)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oliver Fromme writes: > In the first case, the sound is produced by the middle part of > the tongue (between tongue and palate), in the second case it > is produced by the back part of the tongue (it comes from the > throat). The latter is the correct pronunciation for "chi" and > "TeX". Technically speaking, the first is unvoiced, the second is voiced. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 8:19:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86DC837B7E1 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 08:19:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@tutopia.com) Received: from tutopia.com ([216.226.229.109]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5794 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 10:18:21 -0400 Message-ID: <39201455.AF98123D@asme.org> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:14:29 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <20000514233807.AB9B337BA82@hub.freebsd.org> <391F57E0.D356FEC0@asme.org> <20000515092742.A13815@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <391F79AD.28ABD5C5@asme.org> <20000515094552.D13815@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One more thing, WRT the use of GPL'd software when you don't like the license. 1) While I find the GPL unappropiate, the LGPL is acceptable as it permits some form of code reuse. 2) If you remember what I called the "social definition" of evil, it must be said that stupid people are more dagerous than evil people. The article "The laws of Human Stupidity" (sorry the article got lost, but the author is an Italian math teacher) defines a stupid person as a person who consistently harms himself and harms others that sorround him. If by using GPLd software you are doing good for yourself and you are helping people see the light behind *BSD, then it's OK. BTW, the OpenMotif license is cool. OpenMotif classifies as free software but not as Opensource: http://www.opengroup.org/openmotif cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 8:56:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0002337B5AD for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 08:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 51989 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 15:56:07 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 15 May 2000 15:56:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 16565 invoked by uid 211); 15 May 2000 15:56:05 -0000 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:26:05 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000515212605.C16481@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000514093934.10200@techunix.technion.ac.il> <001801bfbe09$ced4d120$021d85d1@youwant.to> <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000515125628.A48320@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000515112415.A28842@mithrandr.moria.org> <20000515131558.61220@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000515131558.61220@techunix.technion.ac.il>; from mellon@pobox.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 01:15:58PM +0300 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It seems pretty obvious that the mutt COPYING file does indeed say that > > you can use GPL version 2, or later, at your discretion. In fact, I > > don't think I've ever seen a COPYING file that doesn't have the 'or > > later'. > > > > Where was the misinformation? > > It was stated that you, the author, didn't have a choice, and could > not use the GPL (without modifying it) and avoid allowing your users to > choose a later version. > > That statement was not true. It is true, however, that most authors choose to include the "later version" line. That's in case of possible legal problems with the GPLv2 which may be fixed in v3. The point is, it is *their* choice, not Stallman's. If I wanted to distribute some software under only the GPL v2, I can, but if some day a hole is poked in the GPL in court and a GPL3 exists by that time, I probably won't get much help from the FSF. Besides, there are numerous examples of copyright holders to the code changing their licensing scheme from GPL to something else. It is simply not true that Stallman controls your code for life. But someone who has already received it under the GPL is permitted to continue redistributing/developing that version under the GPL, and they cannot change the license to something else, not being the copyright holders. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 9:53: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE2537B72D for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 09:52:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C1148.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.72]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19339 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 06:50:30 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24864AC2C for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:52:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02842 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:52:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:52:56 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: funny stuff Message-ID: <20000515185256.A2833@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks! I just happened two laugh as I haven't for some weeks ;-) I just wanted to build/install net/mrtg from Ports: You should really see what's there: checking if we can use GCC-specific compiler options... yes updating cache ./config.cache creating ./config.status creating Makefile ordering CD from http://ee-staff.ethz.ch/~oetiker/wish Then, it waits some seconds and prints some dots, as done for status-lines, one each second. ordering CD from http://ee-staff.ethz.ch/~oetiker/wish ..... and then, finally: ordering CD from http://ee-staff.ethz.ch/~oetiker/wish .... just kidding ;-) That's just GREAT! Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 11: 1:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rock.ghis.net (rock.ghis.net [209.222.164.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE95237B6D7 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 11:01:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from argon.blackdawn.com ([209.69.76.105]) by rock.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA67666; Mon, 15 May 2000 11:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DD2AF194D; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:00:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:00:18 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Alexander Langer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: funny stuff Message-ID: <20000515140018.D95803@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <20000515185256.A2833@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000515185256.A2833@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 06:52:56PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 06:52:56PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > checking if we can use GCC-specific compiler options... yes > updating cache ./config.cache > creating ./config.status > creating Makefile > ordering CD from http://ee-staff.ethz.ch/~oetiker/wish > > Then, it waits some seconds and prints some dots, as done for > status-lines, one each second. > > ordering CD from http://ee-staff.ethz.ch/~oetiker/wish ..... > > and then, finally: > > ordering CD from http://ee-staff.ethz.ch/~oetiker/wish .... just kidding ;-) > > That's just GREAT! Ah God, I wish I was so easily brought to laughter, BUT! When I went to that URL above, THAT'S when I got my laughter! ;-) *chuckling* -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 11: 4:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B00437B5B7 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 11:04:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C1148.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.72]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07894; Mon, 15 May 2000 08:01:59 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A13BAC2C; Mon, 15 May 2000 20:04:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04829; Mon, 15 May 2000 20:04:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:04:22 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Will Andrews Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: funny stuff Message-ID: <20000515200422.A4750@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Will Andrews , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000515185256.A2833@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000515140018.D95803@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000515140018.D95803@argon.blackdawn.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 02:00:18PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Will Andrews (andrews@technologist.com): > > ordering CD from http://ee-staff.ethz.ch/~oetiker/wish .... just kidding ;-) > Ah God, I wish I was so easily brought to laughter, BUT! When I went Yes, I'm a positive oriented guy ;-) > to that URL above, THAT'S when I got my laughter! ;-) Wow! In fact ;) he has a big wishlist. Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 12:21: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4152F37B6A1 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 12:20:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA54516 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 May 2000 15:20:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:20:53 -0400 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BUGTRAQ Vulnerabilities Stats Message-ID: <20000515152053.A54495@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was just having a look at the statistics compiled at, http://www.securityfocus.com/vdb/stats.html Of the BUGTRAQ vulnerabilities for the past three years. For those interested, FreeBSD is one of those included on the list. For all of the OSs, you need to consider how much they are deployed (someone, whitehat, blackhat, or a designer's own engineers, needs to find the hole first) and what roles they fill (how many webservers are running under MacOS?) before taking shear number of reports as indication of the software's quality. There are no big shocks to me. WinNT easly tops the list with "Linux" pulling up not too far behind. "Linux" is not surprising since it is an aggregation of various distributions. Debian and RedHat are singled out and have much lower numbers when looked at individually. FreeBSD has the most of the *BSD listed (Free, Net, and Open) with 1999 having quite a spike (but almost all OSes have a spike in '99). The big 2.2 to 3 jump is probably a big part of that. That FreeBSD has more than OpenBSD is no suprise given that OpenBSD's primary goal is security. That it has more than NetBSD may be accounted for by FreeBSD being more widely deployed with more aggressive development? Or is NetBSD more security conscious? I don't have enough feel for what's up with NetBSD to say. Anyway, I just found the info at SecurityFocus interesting and wondered if anyone out there had any brilliant insights into the stats... Or any brilliant reasons why the numbers are meaningless. Better yet, anyone have more thorough cites for security comparisons among a broad range of OSes (not the old NT versus "UNIX" ones please). -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 13:19:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pug.chroot.net (pug.chroot.net [208.185.49.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B14937B6A0; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:19:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeremym@chroot.net) Received: from pug.chroot.net (IDENT:jeremym@pug.chroot.net [208.185.49.166]) by pug.chroot.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA31009; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:19:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:19:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy McLeod To: Warner Losh Cc: Jan Knepper , jobs@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Occasional Consulting Offer. In-Reply-To: <200005152009.OAA39584@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On May 15, 2000, at 14:09, Warner Losh spewed forth: > In message <392057DF.276D1EDA@smartsoft.cc> Jan Knepper writes: > : I don't think that is funny. > : Have you something against PETA, i.e. People for Ethical Treatment > : of Animals? > > Maybe he does have something against PETA. Maybe he'd joint the > Boulder Vegitable Rights Association to show how far overboard PETA > and other such organizations can go (http://www.bvra.org for the site > which is a parady). And maybe he's even got a brain and realizes the PC, liberalistic worldview is idiotic. This isn't a thread for jobs@, though. Moving to chat@. jeremy - -- Exitus acta probat. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBOSBbzxJHhoJyLTDtEQLjsACdG2HL7aWvqZ6tDf142aB9Bm2uA0IAn36v BIGFL8IOGA9CJzxz/QtGTtTC =SPon -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 13:40:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482EB37B86D for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22181 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:40:15 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:40:15 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: GPL only patents Message-ID: <20000515134015.A22174@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.advogato.com/article/89.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 13:57:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFB737B81C for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r13.bfm.org [216.127.220.109]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 15 May 2000 15:58:14 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000515155701.0089b290@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:57:01 -0500 To: James Howard From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: David Schwartz , Anatoly Vorobey , "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000514205024.00898920@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22:05 14-05-2000 -0400, James Howard wrote: >It's like the normal (C) except enclosed in a full circle and facing the >other direction. I hope that gets defeated. Well, Stallman has personally joined the Unicode list and is pushing it. Right now the disucssion is not whether the symbol should be included but what its Unicode name should be. Several people are objecting to the word "copyleft" as being linguistically incorrect, but so far I have been the only one objecting to the inclusion of the symbol at all. Perhaps it's time for others to join the list and express their objection. See http://www.unicode.org/unicode/consortium/distlist.html on how to subscribe. Of course, any posts there must be technical, devoid of any personal emotions... Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 14:45: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7325337B866 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:44:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12rSfP-0006eQ-00; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:44:47 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA97082 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:42:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? Date: 15 May 2000 22:42:29 +0200 Message-ID: <8fpnfl$2upi$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <200005141603.SAA97395@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: ["ich"/"ach"] > Technically speaking, the first is unvoiced, the second is voiced. No. Technically speaking, the "ich" phone is an unvoiced palatal fricative, whereas the "ach" one is an unvoiced velar fricative. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 14:52:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E9A37B8A2; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:52:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA95742; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:52:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:52:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: cjclark@home.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUGTRAQ Vulnerabilities Stats In-Reply-To: <20000515152053.A54495@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 May 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > FreeBSD has the most of the *BSD listed (Free, Net, and Open) with > 1999 having quite a spike (but almost all OSes have a spike in > '99). The big 2.2 to 3 jump is probably a big part of that. I also think they're counting ports among the FreeBSD vulnerabilities, which gives us an unfair disadvantage because often in fact the vulnerability is not anything freebsd-specific, it was just first publicized as being "vulnerable on FreeBSD". For example, OpenBSD has had more than 2 vulnerabilities so far this year - they've shared several of the vulnerable ports, and have also fixed several security issues which never were widely publicized as affecting OpenBSD. Perhaps it's due to lack of manpower, but OpenBSD don't seem to make it widely known when they fix a security hole. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 15:57:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7043537B901 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 15:57:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 15 May 2000 15:56:12 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Anatoly Vorobey" Cc: Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:57:19 -0700 Message-ID: <002301bfbec0$ec53b3d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You, David Schwartz, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 14, > 2000 at 06:06:32PM -0700: > > > > > It is the choice of the author to use the words "GPL version 2 (or any > > > later version) applies to this software" or "GPL version 2, and solely > > > that version, applies to this software", or nothing (which implies the > > > earlier choice). The author has the choice. > > > > > > Anatoly Vorobey, > > > > Do you have Stallman's permission to make and use a derived > > work from the > > GPL? The GPL is copyrighted after all. > I think you didn't understand what I was saying. You don't have to modify > the GPL in order to prevent later versions of it from applying to your > product. You need to *preface* the GPL with the statement that your > product is covered by this specific license that follows and no other > versions of it. The text inside GPL which allows a user to apply a later > version will only work if you did *not* preface the GPL by such a > statement > (or if you prefaced it by explicitly saying that later versions > will apply). The GPL is someone's intellectual property. If you wish to use it, you must use it according to the terms by which it was licensed to you. If you don't have permission to use the GPL with such modifications, you are not permitted to do so. I think Stallman would have a major problem with people prefacing the GPL with 'modifications', amendments or changes of any kind. He could argue that the GPL with such a preface is a 'derived work' of the GPL. > > You don't think Stallman would give > > up the incredible power he has -- he can change the licensing > terms of every > > single piece of software covered by the GPL at his whim. Not even the > > individual authors can do as the GPL reserves the right only for him. > That is also completely incorrect. An individual author *always* has > the right to reissue his product with any other license he chooses -- > proprietary, free, whatever. The GPL's restrictions don't apply to the > copyright holder. This has been used extensively in fact (by the author > of the GPLed Ghostscript, for instance, who issues commercial licenses > for early versions with new technology). Your response has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said. Please read it again. If I write a work and place it under the GPL, and it is later modified and extended, a new version of the GPL being issued would change the licensing terms for the work as a whole. Not even the original author can do that. And believe me, Stallman would throw a fit if I prefaced the GPL with: "This program is free software. You can distribute and/or modify it under the terms of the GPL; however, you implicitly agree that any code you contribute to it may also be released under any other license that the original software is released under." This is the power that the GPL reserves ONLY for itself. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 15:58:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D780637B909 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 15:58:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 15 May 2000 15:57:15 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:58:22 -0700 Message-ID: <002401bfbec1$11ff8ff0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000515125628.A48320@physics.iisc.ernet.in> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In fact this kind of head-in-the-sand misinformation about the GPL, > which is so common in the BSD world, is why I didn't want to get into > the argument again. This is not the only kind of misinformation: > people also keep alleging that the GPL forces you to give your program > to anyone who asks for it, and so on. Nobody who's read the GPL can > believe such things, and it's not worth arguing with people who haven't. Surely you are smart enough to know that saying, "That's as stupid as " is not a refutation. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 16: 1:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3207337B926 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:00:20 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Anatoly Vorobey" , "Neil Blakey-Milner" Cc: "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:01:27 -0700 Message-ID: <002501bfbec1$80333b70$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000515131558.61220@techunix.technion.ac.il> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It was stated that you, the author, didn't have a choice, and could > not use the GPL (without modifying it) and avoid allowing your users to > choose a later version. > > That statement was not true. If RMS publically states that he will grant permission for people to apply the GPL with statements before or after it that modify its terms, I will withdraw that complaint. If not, I stand by it. As I understand it, the GPL is a piece of property that is owned. You may not use it any way other than the way the author permits you to. If Stallman grants permission solely for that particular type of modification, then my allegation will become false, but will have been true when it was made. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 16:14:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A94437B926 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:13:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:12:34 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Anatoly Vorobey" Cc: "Neil Blakey-Milner" , Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:13:41 -0700 Message-ID: <002601bfbec3$35b3a8d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000515212605.C16481@physics.iisc.ernet.in> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It is true, however, that most authors choose to include the "later > version" line. That's in case of possible legal problems with the > GPLv2 which may be fixed in v3. The point is, it is *their* choice, > not Stallman's. If I wanted to distribute some software under only > the GPL v2, I can, but if some day a hole is poked in the GPL in court > and a GPL3 exists by that time, I probably won't get much help from > the FSF. Kindly present one shred of evidence that one has permission to use the GPL in this manner. What you are forgetting is that the GPL is a piece of intellectual property and the "How To Apply These Terms To Your New Programs" is the license agreement. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 16:15:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BBD8B37B921 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:15:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 61731 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 23:15:13 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 15 May 2000 23:15:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 8649 invoked by uid 211); 15 May 2000 23:15:12 -0000 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 04:45:12 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516044511.B8613@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> <002301bfbec0$ec53b3d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <002301bfbec0$ec53b3d0$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 03:57:19PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Your response has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said. Please read it > again. > > If I write a work and place it under the GPL, and it is later modified and > extended, a new version of the GPL being issued would change the licensing > terms for the work as a whole. Not even the original author can do that. And > believe me, Stallman would throw a fit if I prefaced the GPL with: > > "This program is free software. You can distribute and/or modify it under > the terms of the GPL; however, you implicitly agree that any code you > contribute to it may also be released under any other license that the > original software is released under." > > This is the power that the GPL reserves ONLY for itself. The license of the program tells you under what terms you may distribute it. A GPL'd program tells you you may distribute under some specific version of the GPL. To quote the GPL itself, 9. The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of the General Public License from time to time. Such new versions will be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to address new problems or concerns. Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Program specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation. If the Program does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation. What it does not say is what you may do if the Program specifies a version number of this License and "no other version", or even a version number of the license without further qualification. I think the omission is either deliberate, because he didn't want to encourage it, or unintentional, but there is no ambiguity legally. If you specify that the GPL version 2, and only that version, applies to the program, that's the end of the matter. Nothing RMS says can change that. And nothing in the GPL itself says you cannot make such a requirement. It is true that most free software I have seen say "or any later version", but I think that's simply to save themselves possible legal problems if there's a loophole with GPLv2 and the FSF fixes it in v3. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 16:23:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B25B37B95A for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 61774 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 23:23:04 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 15 May 2000 23:23:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 8670 invoked by uid 211); 15 May 2000 23:23:02 -0000 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 04:53:02 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , Neil Blakey-Milner , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516045301.C8613@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000515131558.61220@techunix.technion.ac.il> <002501bfbec1$80333b70$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <002501bfbec1$80333b70$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:01:27PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It was stated that you, the author, didn't have a choice, and could > > not use the GPL (without modifying it) and avoid allowing your users to > > choose a later version. > > > > That statement was not true. > > If RMS publically states that he will grant permission for people to apply > the GPL with statements before or after it that modify its terms, I will > withdraw that complaint. If not, I stand by it. > > As I understand it, the GPL is a piece of property that is owned. You may > not use it any way other than the way the author permits you to. > > If Stallman grants permission solely for that particular type of > modification, then my allegation will become false, but will have been true > when it was made. There's no modification involved. The GPL version 2 is a specific document. It allows you to apply it to your software. It does not require anywhere that you should always permit replacing that license by a later version. It does, however, make clear what the situation is if the program specifies that this version "or any later version" applies to it; but this is a possibility based on what the programmer chooses to do, not a necessity. You can take the GPL, bundle it with your code, and say "this program may be distributed under version 2 of the GPL, and under no other license and no other version of the GPL." Nothing in the GPL stops you from doing that. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 16:28:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC8B737B95F for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:28:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:26:43 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Anatoly Vorobey" , Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:27:50 -0700 Message-ID: <002a01bfbec5$2faec1c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000516044511.B8613@physics.iisc.ernet.in> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What it does not say is what you may do if the Program specifies > a version number of this License and "no other version", or even > a version number of the license without further qualification. > I think the omission is either deliberate, because he didn't want > to encourage it, or unintentional, but there is no ambiguity > legally. If you specify that the GPL version 2, and only that > version, applies to the program, that's the end of the matter. He doesn't just not encourage it, he doesn't _allow_ it. The GPL is _owned_. You may only use and distribute it in ways that you are specifically permitted to. Produce a statement saying that people are free to use the GPL in ways other than those it specifically permits. You cannot do it. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 16:29:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8B837B93D for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:29:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:28:37 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Anatoly Vorobey" , "Neil Blakey-Milner" , Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:29:44 -0700 Message-ID: <002b01bfbec5$73ca0f40$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000516045301.C8613@physics.iisc.ernet.in> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You can take the GPL, bundle it with your code, and say "this > program may be distributed under version 2 of the GPL, and under no > other license and no other version of the GPL." Nothing in the GPL > stops you from doing that. > > R. No you can't do that, since you don't have permission to. The law regarding copyright is not that you can do anything you aren't specifically prohibited from doing. You may only do what you are specifically allowed to do. The GPL would be worthless if people could preface it with any clauses they wanted to that modified its terms in any way they wanted. The instructions for how to apply the GPL to your own code _IS_ the distribution agreement. It is the only document that grants you the right to distribute the GPL. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 16:35:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1DA237B921 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA45338; Tue, 16 May 2000 02:34:26 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 02:34:26 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516023426.A45211@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> <002301bfbec0$ec53b3d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <002301bfbec0$ec53b3d0$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 03:57:19PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 03:57:19PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > I think you didn't understand what I was saying. You don't have to modify > > the GPL in order to prevent later versions of it from applying to your > > product. You need to *preface* the GPL with the statement that your > > product is covered by this specific license that follows and no other > > versions of it. The text inside GPL which allows a user to apply a later > > version will only work if you did *not* preface the GPL by such a > > statement > > (or if you prefaced it by explicitly saying that later versions > > will apply). > > The GPL is someone's intellectual property. If you wish to use it, you must > use it according to the terms by which it was licensed to you. This is correct. The terms are: Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed. The GPL is not GPLed (as you appear to mistakingly believe). The GPL doesn't place restrictions on its use as a part of license specification. If I copy the GPL verbatim, and then make my program carry the license that said, "You can use and distribute this program according to the requirements of the GPL, except the 8th section doesn't apply", Stallman would not be able to do a thing (as long as I distributed the GPL with the 8th section intact, of course), and if you again try to contradict this, realize first that the burden of proof is on your shoulders. The GPL nowhere places any restrictions *on its use* as a text. Of course, Stallman would then object to calling my program a GPLed program, and he would be right. In case of my restricting the license to a specific version of the GPL, I do not believe he would object to calling my program a GPLed program. In any case, this is irrelevant; what's relevant is that I *can* use such a license. > If you don't > have permission to use the GPL with such modifications, you are not > permitted to do so. No GPL modifications are taking place. > I think Stallman would have a major problem with people prefacing the GPL > with 'modifications', amendments or changes of any kind. He could argue that > the GPL with such a preface is a 'derived work' of the GPL. Yes, he could; but since the GPL isn't GPLed, there're no restrictions on using it in derived works, as long as you copy it verbatim (as required in the GPL). > If I write a work and place it under the GPL, and it is later modified and > extended, a new version of the GPL being issued would change the licensing > terms for the work as a whole. Not even the original author can do that. And > believe me, Stallman would throw a fit if I prefaced the GPL with: > > "This program is free software. You can distribute and/or modify it under > the terms of the GPL; however, you implicitly agree that any code you > contribute to it may also be released under any other license that the > original software is released under." No, he wouldn't; and if he would, there'd be nothing he could do to stop you anyway. You can put whatever you want in your license, and you can place whatever restrictions you want *additional* to the GPL (the author of gcc-for-dos-forget-whatchamacallit did that). It's your license, do what you wish. Just don't be surprised if other people won't use it. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 16:35:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CF3C37B921 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:35:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 61863 invoked from network); 15 May 2000 23:35:33 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 15 May 2000 23:35:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 8702 invoked by uid 211); 15 May 2000 23:35:31 -0000 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:05:30 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , Neil Blakey-Milner , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516050530.E8613@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000516045301.C8613@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <002b01bfbec5$73ca0f40$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <002b01bfbec5$73ca0f40$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:29:44PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No you can't do that, since you don't have permission to. The law regarding > copyright is not that you can do anything you aren't specifically prohibited > from doing. You may only do what you are specifically allowed to do. > > The GPL would be worthless if people could preface it with any clauses they > wanted to that modified its terms in any way they wanted. The instructions > for how to apply the GPL to your own code _IS_ the distribution agreement. > It is the only document that grants you the right to distribute the GPL. You are neither modifying it nor adding a clause. You are distributing your software under it. As long as you don't specify otherwise, it is assumed that this is the license which applies. Even if you specify that explicitly, that doesn't say anything new. If you say "you may also use a later version" *then* you are adding a clause. But the GPL explicitly permits that particular clause (it does *not* insist on it, it only covers that possibility) so it's ok to make that requirement. But if, for instance, you said "you may use version 2 or version 3 but no later version", that is not explicitly covered in the GPL so your point would be valid... R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 16:37: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E766E37B936 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:36:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA45363; Tue, 16 May 2000 02:36:28 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 02:36:28 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516023628.B45211@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000515131558.61220@techunix.technion.ac.il> <002501bfbec1$80333b70$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <002501bfbec1$80333b70$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:01:27PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:01:27PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > > It was stated that you, the author, didn't have a choice, and could > > not use the GPL (without modifying it) and avoid allowing your users to > > choose a later version. > > > > That statement was not true. > > If RMS publically states that he will grant permission for people to apply > the GPL with statements before or after it that modify its terms, I will > withdraw that complaint. If not, I stand by it. RMS does not need to make such a statement. He is powerless to prevent people from using whatever licenses they wish to use. The only power he has relates to the use of GPL, a copyrighted document, by other people. That power is given away by him when he allows GPL to be copied verbatim and distributed, without modifications, and doesn't put any additional requirements on the use. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 17:39:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com [24.6.21.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C698837B945 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 17:39:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA74649; Mon, 15 May 2000 19:39:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:39:11 -0500 (CDT) Organization: @Home Network From: Conrad Sabatier To: Kris Kirby Subject: Re: Yowza! Cc: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-May-00 Kris Kirby wrote: > > I think you have to see if it has SRAMs or not. Does it have the part > number on the outside? Something like 100042xx1050DEA or something? DEA is > a .18 micron chip (the one with L2 in it), everything else (BBA/BCA) is > the other one (.25 micron, IIRC.) If you find the part numbers on the top > of the proc, I might be able to tell you more. I can also tell you where > your processor was physically build (the module) if the serial number ends > with 1, 2, 3, or 4. :-) > > (Oops. I work there.) :-) Well, it looks like *two* CPUs (I know this is not the case, that's just the best way I can describe how it looks). I had the case open the other day to copy some stuff from my old drives (old machine's dead, Jim), but it's closed up right now. Maybe my dmesg output will give you some idea? I must admit, I'm a tad curious myself. :-) [snip] FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE #0: Sat May 13 19:05:13 CDT 2000 conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/MYKERNEL Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) Processor (998.07-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x622 Stepping = 2 Features=0x183f9ff AMD Features=0xc0400000 real memory = 268369920 (262080K bytes) avail memory = 257941504 (251896K bytes) Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc0302000. Preloaded userconfig_script "/boot/kernel.conf" at 0xc030209c. Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled md0: Malloc disk npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface pcib0: on motherboard pci0: on pcib0 pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 pci1: at 5.0 irq 10 [snip] -- Conrad Sabatier http://members.home.net/conrads/ ICQ# 1147270 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 17:48: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (hydrant.intranova.net [209.201.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA6837B99B for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 17:47:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hydrant.intranova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C776AE10BC for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 20:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:48:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Omachonu Ogali To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vulnerability Database Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Misfire, directed it to -advocacy instead of -chat... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:46:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Omachonu Ogali To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vulnerability Database (fwd) SecurityFocus released information regarding vulnerabilities against certain operating systems, FreeBSD had 18 vulnerabilities in the year of 1999. I dropped Elias an e-mail asking if ports were included, and his response is below. But after looking at statistcics for this year (2000), I saw FreeBSD had 6, so far this year, they have been mainly ports advisories, so I assume Elias's answer is a yes. So far so good for FreeBSD and security. :) The page is at: http://www.securityfocus.com/frames/?vdb=vdb&content=/vdb/stats.html -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:27:59 -0700 From: aleph1@securityfocus.com To: Omachonu Ogali Subject: Re: Vulnerability Database * Omachonu Ogali (oogali@intranova.net) [000515 16:20]: > In these statistics, is SecurityFocus counting the base FreeBSD 3.4 system > or the advisories released for the FreeBSD 3.4 ports? We count vulnerabilities associated with FreeBSD 3.4 or packages shipped as part of FreeBSD 3.4. > -- > +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | > | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | > | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | > | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | > +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > -- Elias Levy SecurityFocus.com http://www.securityfocus.com/ Si vis pacem, para bellum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 18: 9:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EAB5437B704 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:09:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 62357 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 01:08:51 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 May 2000 01:08:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 18574 invoked by uid 211); 16 May 2000 01:08:50 -0000 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:38:50 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516063850.A18527@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000516044511.B8613@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <002a01bfbec5$2faec1c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <002a01bfbec5$2faec1c0$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:27:50PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What it does not say is what you may do if the Program specifies > > a version number of this License and "no other version", or even > > a version number of the license without further qualification. > > I think the omission is either deliberate, because he didn't want > > to encourage it, or unintentional, but there is no ambiguity > > legally. If you specify that the GPL version 2, and only that > > version, applies to the program, that's the end of the matter. > > He doesn't just not encourage it, he doesn't _allow_ it. The GPL is > _owned_. You may only use and distribute it in ways that you are > specifically permitted to. Produce a statement saying that people are free > to use the GPL in ways other than those it specifically permits. You cannot > do it. OK suppose you're right (which is very unlikely). What then? The GPL still only talks of using later versions at your *option*. You can still use GPL 2 if you want. Scenario A: GPL 3 is released, people generally find it acceptable, including me. I imagine most people would move their code to GPL 3 in that case, and I'd use it for my code too. Scenario B: GPL 3 is released, I find it unacceptable, I don't want to use it for my code. Simple, I don't use it. As long as I'm maintaining it, I can continue to use GPL 2 for it. And if GPL 2 is incompatible with GPL 3, I can refuse to use patches given to me under GPL 3. The only way Stallman can take control of my code is by forking it and improving it to the extent that people prefer his version to mine. He can do that even now, without playing with licenses, in fact he was at the receiving end of that with xemacs and egcs -- but since the egcs copyrights continued to go to the FSF, he was willing to reunify it with gcc. If GPL 3 is sufficiently unpleasant, he can't even maintain control of the FSF code. It's already out there under GPL 2, on mirror sites all over the world. People will simply continue to distribute it under GPL 2, and maintain it themselves and fork it if necessary, and refuse to use the FSF's GPL 3 version. None of which will come to pass. The GPL 3, if and when it comes out, is not in the least likely to offend current users or suggest any "world domination" plans by RMS individually. Nobody will be prevented from using the GPL 2 on existing GPL 2 software, or even on new software. Downgrading GPL 3 software to GPL 2 may not be allowed, though. And by my reading of the GPL 2, even if a programmer specifies that only GPL 2 can apply to his code, there's nothing in the GPL 2 which stops him doing so. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 18:22: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70AF37B89D for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:21:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:20:51 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Anatoly Vorobey" , Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:21:59 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfbed5$21a44b30$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20000516063850.A18527@physics.iisc.ernet.in> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > OK suppose you're right (which is very unlikely). What then? The GPL > still only talks of using later versions at your *option*. You can > still use GPL 2 if you want. The point is that if you cover a work under the GPL, and then others modify and extend that work, the only entity that has any control over the licensing terms is the FSF. Not even the original owner can modify the licensing terms. This has, historically, created some amusing incidents. Take for example the Linux operating system. It was developed under the GPL from day one. It contains contributions from large numbers of people, all contributed under the GPL. Theoretically, nobody but the FSF should be able to change the licensing agreement. Not even the original author (Linus Torvalds) is supposed to be allowed to do that. But he did. He declared unilaterally the programs that just Linux kernel calls are not covered by the GPL. Now what is this declaration? Is it Linus' legal opinion? Isn't this in direct conflict with what RMS recently said on this list? Linux is not covered by the LGPL, and all programs that run on Linux 'link' to the Linux kernel as surely as any library use. Now somehow in this case, Linus seems to have gotten away with it. But I have no idea how he has the right to change the licensing terms on other people's software. As I read the GPL, only the FSF has that right. How do you address this? Does Linus have the right to relax the GPL on all the contributed works in the Linux kernel? Or will RMS go on record as saying that running on an OS is different from linking to a library? (How so? Technically, they are precisely analogous.) Bluntly, Linus should not have applied the GPL to his work. He should have applied a license that had the terms he wanted to apply, and this would have allowed him to fix erroneous terms later. But he ceded that power to the FSF. Now, if someone really wanted to make a stink, I'm not sure what he could do but throw out all code contributed to the kernel inbetween when it was first released and when he clarified the license. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 18:37:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559C037B892 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:37:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA10552 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 16 May 2000 11:08:09 +0930 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA09858 for crazies-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:28:40 +0930 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: freebie.lemis.com: majordom set sender to owner-crazies@lemis.com using -f Received: from proxy4.ba.best.com (root@proxy4.ba.best.com [206.184.139.15]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA09853 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:28:35 +0930 (CST) Received: from cliveden.com (host20.selectica.com [4.21.58.20]) by proxy4.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id QAA08176 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39208E0D.721316CF@cliveden.com> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:53:49 -0700 From: "Guy K. Haas" Reply-To: gkhaas@usa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: You know you're from Silicon Valley when........... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You know you're from Silicon Valley when........... - Your household income is $140,000 and you can't afford shoes for the kids - You think anything slower than DSL is barbaric, but can't get it in your neighborhood - You know what DSL stands for - You and your spouse almost come to blows deciding to hit Peet's or Starbucks - You think that American food includes sushi, naan, pho, pesto and pad thai - You met your neighbors once - When asked about your commute you answer in time, not distance - Even though you work 80 hours per week on a computer, for relaxation you read your email and peruse eBay - You have worked at the same job for a year and people call you an 'old-timer' - You have a special drawer devoted to T-shirts with the code names of products on them (such as 'Dragon Slayer,' 'Goofball,' 'Squad Car') - The T-shirts you value most were for products that never made it to market - You can name four different programming languages and you are not a programmer - You remember the names of the three closest cheap sushi joints, the location of all the Fry's in the area and which companies your friends work for that are going public in the next year, but don't know the name of the mayor - Your name is in the credits of at least one piece of software - Standing in line at Starbucks you wonder why the employees don't call a head hunter - You work 6 miles from your home and spend two hours a day commuting and $40 a week on gas - Winter is when your lawn grows too fast and summer is when it dies - You live on some of the richest farm land in the world but most of what you eat comes from South America on a boat - Your best friend lives across town but you hardly ever see each other because after your commute you're too pooped to spend another hour driving to their home - You have a master's degree in engineering but half the people in your department either didn't go to college or have history degrees, except if you have a master's from Stanford, in which case everyone in your department has a master's degree from Stanford - You cringe when you see people in suits at your office, wondering if someone in management will make you stop wearing bunny slippers - You would work for people you dislike if the 401K plan is self directed - You plan your vacation so that you don't have to drive back from the airport in commute hours - You could walk to the market in 45 minutes, but taking public transit adds another three hours and you still have to walk 45 minutes - You don't go to sporting events unless you are given tickets by your employer - You have seen four movies in the last year on the day they opened, all with the rest of your department, during work hours - You could sell your home and live like a king in 99% of the rest of the world, but don't because you could not afford to move back. - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@lemis.com with "unsubscribe crazies" in the body of the message. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 19:10:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D1237B91C for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 19:10:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r15.bfm.org [216.127.220.111]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 15 May 2000 21:10:49 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000515210946.009676c0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:09:46 -0500 To: "David Schwartz" , "Anatoly Vorobey" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: In-Reply-To: <002301bfbec0$ec53b3d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 15:57 15-05-2000 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > The GPL is someone's intellectual property. If you wish to use it, you must >use it according to the terms by which it was licensed to you. If you don't >have permission to use the GPL with such modifications, you are not >permitted to do so. Indeed, he expressly prohibits such modifications: > > GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE > > Version 2, June 1991 > >Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 675 Mass Ave, > Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. Everyone >is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license > document, but changing it is not allowed. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It is an all or nothing proposition. You either go with GPL all the way, or you don't use it at all. Adam ===> Whiz Kid Technomagic <=== http://www.whizkidtech.net/ The resource center for webmasters and web users Winner of the Starting Point Hot Site award Winner of the Lighthouse Award Home of the Web Magic Award To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 20:14:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FAA537B9D8 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 20:14:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-130.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.130]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e4G3Do329682; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:13:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA39422; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:13:47 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200005160313.WAA39422@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "David M. White" Cc: president@juno.com, info@nrwpr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mediarelations@globalcenter.net, barrs@perkinscoie.com, info@kana.com, projectfeedback@yahoo.com, perrinsaxe@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Why Juno is the worst email provider in America In-Reply-To: Message from "David M. White" of "Mon, 15 May 2000 16:23:25 PDT." <392086ED.37BA2A72@u.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:13:47 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Redirected to -chat where it belongs. "David M. White" writes: > Juno President: > > I have been trying to discontinue my Juno service for the last > half hour. As a person who works for a living, I have been > calling from work since you are an internet provider that does > not allow a person to manage his/her account via the internet. > > I have been trying to disconnect my Juno service. I had to call > Juno three times to be connected to a human being. The first two > times, after lengthy hold sessions, I was disconnected. On the > third try I was connected to a young man so poorly trained that > he was having trouble reading his prompt card. I gave him my > Juno email address. He did not ask me my name, he read it back > to me. He did not ask me my phone number, he read it back to > me. He then asked me for my credit card number and expiration > date. Oddly enough, I do not carry credit cards on my person on > a daily basis for safety reasons. He refused to cancel my > account with me reading him my credit card number. [...] Am not familiar with Juno. Are they not a free internet service? Not that it matters. Clearly you didn't expect to be making a payment when you called to cancel therefore I'm guessing the credit card number Juno has on file for you is for identification. I'm a little confused why you are upset they require some kind of identification that you are really the you who established the account? What kind of company would Juno be if anybody could claim to be you, and cancel the account? Seems like one should be able to use the Juno account to send email to Juno requesting it be disconnected. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 22:47:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B551A37B510 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA49468 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 16 May 2000 08:47:31 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:47:31 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Salon article on BSD Message-ID: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html (the headpiece of today's Salon). Here's Linus quoted inside on why he doesn't do source control: "The purely technical side of keeping track of the sources can be handled by source control packages," says Torvalds, "but at least, in my opinion, they actually tend to favor the approach of 'Let's put this in now; if it turns out to be a mistake, we can always revert it because we have source control.' And of course, nobody ever actually does clean up anything. Or hardly ever. So I think the real problem in computer science is to have quality control before it even hits the distribution, and so far there isn't any other package than the human brain that can do that job." This is so mind-boggingly... misguided?... I just don't know what to say to this. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 22:50:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A551F37B5BE for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 22:50:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00763; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:50:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000515234828.04172cf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:50:17 -0600 To: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL only patents In-Reply-To: <20000515134015.A22174@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, I'm aware of this. Note that the philosophy here is that it's OK if the FSF enjoys the monopoly conferred by patents, but not if a programmer uses it to ensure that he is able to make a livelihood. Another example of how, in Richard Stallman's "Humpty Dumpty" world, some are "more equal than others." --Brett At 02:40 PM 5/15/2000, Arun Sharma wrote: >http://www.advogato.com/article/89.html "When you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount. But lawyers have other strategies, including buying a stronger whip, changing riders ... declaring that the horse is better, faster and cheaper dead, and, finally, harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed." Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson, quoted in The Wall Street Journal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 23: 1:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958DA37B5BE for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:01:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00843; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:01:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000515235734.042edbf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:01:09 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "David Schwartz" , "Anatoly Vorobey" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000515210946.009676c0@mail85.pair.com> References: <002301bfbec0$ec53b3d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:09 PM 5/15/2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >At 15:57 15-05-2000 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > The GPL is someone's intellectual property. If you wish to use it, you must > >use it according to the terms by which it was licensed to you. If you don't > >have permission to use the GPL with such modifications, you are not > >permitted to do so. > >Indeed, he expressly prohibits such modifications: > > > > > GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE > > > > Version 2, June 1991 > > > >Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 675 Mass Ave, > > Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. Everyone > >is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license > > document, but changing it is not allowed. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >It is an all or nothing proposition. You either go with GPL all the way, or >you don't use it at all. Interesting! Stallman frequently states that he wants anyone to be able to tinker with anyone's intellectual property and that the whole concept of such property is fundamentally wrong. (He even stated, in an interview in BYTE, s that to prevent someone from modifying it is "sabotage.") Yet here, he not only claims a copyright but attempts to prohibit modifications and the creation of derivative works. Hypocrisy. --Brett Glass Used to be businesses sold products. Now they just sell themselves. -- David Johnson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 15 23:45:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC45D37B70B for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA23891; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:45:26 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:45:26 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005160645.XAA23891@sharmas.dhs.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD In-Reply-To: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html > > (the headpiece of today's Salon). > > Here's Linus quoted inside on why he doesn't do source control: > > "The purely technical side of keeping track of the sources can be > handled by source control packages," says Torvalds, "but at least, in > my opinion, they actually tend to favor the approach of 'Let's put > this in now; if it turns out to be a mistake, we can always revert it > because we have source control.' And of course, nobody ever actually > does clean up anything. Or hardly ever. So I think the real problem in > computer science is to have quality control before it even hits the > distribution, and so far there isn't any other package than the human > brain that can do that job." This is exactly like his other argument - "debuggers are for wimps". BTW, there is a company that Larry McVoy founded, (www.bitmover.com) whose only purpose was to help Linus maintain his sanity. I'm not sure if Linus plans to use it. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 0: 6:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A9537B8A7 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:06:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA82682; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:06:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:06:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200005160706.JAA82682@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8fnnfg$2idm$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Greg Lehey wrote: > What vowel is in TeX? What you're effectively saying is that you'd > pronounce "TeX" and "TeXnik" with different sounds. Well, I don't know how "TeXnik" is supposed to be pronounced (whether it's like "TeX" or like "Technik"). Anyhow, personally I pronounce both the same, and I believe that I don't pronounce "TeX" correctly, according to Knuth. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 0:11:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6E437B763 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA87663; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:11:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:11:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200005160711.JAA87663@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yowza! X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8fniou$2f50$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat David Schwartz wrote: > > It a new-style proc or old style? Old-style is external SRAM; new style is > > everything in one chip. I understand if you remove the case you void the > > warranty.... Just to make this clear: He was probably talking about opening the case of the Athlon processor module, not the computer case. > Last I checked, such provisions were not enforceable in the United States. > If the chip fails because of a defect in manufacturing (which is about the > only reason it could fail unless you break it), they can't exclude you from > warranty coverage for anything you did that didn't actually cause it to > fail. It is pretty non-trivial to open an Athlon processor module, and I'm pretty sure that you cannot do it without leaving traces (unless you have very special tools). You certainly void the warranty doing that (there are no sevicable parts inside anyway). Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 0:15:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA21437B763 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:15:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id QAA12414; Tue, 16 May 2000 16:45:42 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:45:42 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD Message-ID: <20000516164542.G10269@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 16 May 2000 at 8:47:31 +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html > > (the headpiece of today's Salon). > > Here's Linus quoted inside on why he doesn't do source control: > > "The purely technical side of keeping track of the sources can be > handled by source control packages," says Torvalds, "but at least, in > my opinion, they actually tend to favor the approach of 'Let's put > this in now; if it turns out to be a mistake, we can always revert it > because we have source control.' And of course, nobody ever actually > does clean up anything. Or hardly ever. So I think the real problem in > computer science is to have quality control before it even hits the > distribution, and so far there isn't any other package than the human > brain that can do that job." > > This is so mind-boggingly... misguided?... I just don't know what to > say to this. I believe that even in the Linux community there is little understanding for this kind of attitude. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 1: 7: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6802F37B699 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 01:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA58100; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:00:40 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:00:40 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: David Schwartz Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Anatoly Vorobey , Neil Blakey-Milner , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <002b01bfbec5$73ca0f40$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 May 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > > You can take the GPL, bundle it with your code, and say "this > > program may be distributed under version 2 of the GPL, and under no > > other license and no other version of the GPL." Nothing in the GPL > > stops you from doing that. > > > > R. > > No you can't do that, since you don't have permission to. The law regarding > copyright is not that you can do anything you aren't specifically prohibited > from doing. You may only do what you are specifically allowed to do. > > The GPL would be worthless if people could preface it with any clauses they > wanted to that modified its terms in any way they wanted. The instructions > for how to apply the GPL to your own code _IS_ the distribution agreement. > It is the only document that grants you the right to distribute the GPL. > This can't be true. If this were true, teh perl dual licence under GPL and asrtistic would not be possible. > DS > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 1:27: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30B037B7A9 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 01:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtilv.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.202.191]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA31329 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 04:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39210802.4CA91E8A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:34:10 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Narvi wrote: > > The GPL would be worthless if people could preface it with any clauses they > > wanted to that modified its terms in any way they wanted. The instructions > > for how to apply the GPL to your own code _IS_ the distribution agreement. > > It is the only document that grants you the right to distribute the GPL. > > > > This can't be true. If this were true, teh perl dual licence under GPL and > asrtistic would not be possible. > No, release under dual-license is a separate topic from that of modifications to GPL. It's unclear whether either of these topics would stand up in court anyway since at the moment only hypothetical situations exist. What is clear (to me at least) is that the BSD License has been tried by fire and was successful in relieving *BSD from the sanction that AT&T was seeking. For all the "expert" opinions we've seen regarding the GPL (ad nauseum) it has not to my knowledge been through the same degree of legal test in court as the BSDL. According to a recent Linux Journal article, several true legal experts have offered the opinion that it is too restrictive in some areas, too vague in others and even we non-experts can easily see that it is a twisted morass of confusing legalese. That's enough to make quite a significant crowd of developers reject it in favor of a much simpler and less vindictive (more free) license. Hitler. The Nazis. Mussolini too. Now, is this thread dead? -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 1:59:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D7F437B78C for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 01:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 63352 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 04:58:53 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 May 2000 04:58:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 19331 invoked by uid 211); 16 May 2000 04:58:52 -0000 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:28:52 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516102851.A19260@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000516063850.A18527@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <000001bfbed5$21a44b30$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000001bfbed5$21a44b30$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 06:21:59PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > OK suppose you're right (which is very unlikely). What then? The GPL > > still only talks of using later versions at your *option*. You can > > still use GPL 2 if you want. > > The point is that if you cover a work under the GPL, and then others modify > and extend that work, the only entity that has any control over the > licensing terms is the FSF. Not even the original owner can modify the > licensing terms. The point is, in this case the original owner is no longer responsible for the whole work. But he/she can still change the terms of the original, unextended work. This is hardly relevant. Once the original owner has given the work to someone else under a particular license, he can no longer change the licensing terms, *whether it has been extended or not*. He has given it and cannot take it back, new licensing terms can only take place for future distribution of work. Moreover, the person who received the work under the GPL can continue to redistribute under the GPL, even without modifying, no matter how the original owner decides to license it in the future. This is as true of the BSD license as of the GPL. Once you've given it to someone with such a permissive license, you can't take it back or change the licensing terms. > This has, historically, created some amusing incidents. Take for example > the Linux operating system. It was developed under the GPL from day one. It > contains contributions from large numbers of people, all contributed under > the GPL. Theoretically, nobody but the FSF should be able to change the > licensing agreement. Not even the original author (Linus Torvalds) is > supposed to be allowed to do that. > > But he did. He declared unilaterally the programs that just Linux kernel > calls are not covered by the GPL. Now what is this declaration? Is it Linus' > legal opinion? > > Isn't this in direct conflict with what RMS recently said on this list? > Linux is not covered by the LGPL, and all programs that run on Linux 'link' > to the Linux kernel as surely as any library use. > > Now somehow in this case, Linus seems to have gotten away with it. But I > have no idea how he has the right to change the licensing terms on other > people's software. As I read the GPL, only the FSF has that right. It is true, he probably doesn't have the right and RMS has expressed himself against it. But I think I see your problem. You're not worrying that the FSF has the *power* to do anything, you're worrying that the FSF has the *ability*. The thing is, even if the FSF decides to change the GPL, it's up to Linus whether or not to accept the new GPL. Even if someone else decides to distribute with the new GPL, Linus can continue to distribute with the old if he chooses to, and his licensing terms are likely to be treated as authoritative. So the FSF can't harm the interests of the community: the more suitable license will prevail. > How do you address this? Does Linus have the right to relax the GPL on all > the contributed works in the Linux kernel? Or will RMS go on record as > saying that running on an OS is different from linking to a library? (How > so? Technically, they are precisely analogous.) > > Bluntly, Linus should not have applied the GPL to his work. He should have > applied a license that had the terms he wanted to apply, and this would have > allowed him to fix erroneous terms later. But he ceded that power to the > FSF. Now, if someone really wanted to make a stink, I'm not sure what he > could do but throw out all code contributed to the kernel inbetween when it > was first released and when he clarified the license. The only person who's likely to want to make a stink is RMS, and he hasn't -- that is, he's spoken but not acted, and afaik he's spoken on principles (don't encourage binary-only drivers) rather than legal issues (the GPL doesn't allow it). I think he realises that there's an ambiguity in the GPL about what constitutes a derived work. That is, is a binary driver which relies on system calls from the kernel, but uses no code from the kernel and is loaded only as a runtime module, "independent and separate". R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 2:27:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D5A37B53B for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 02:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@avarice.riverstyx.net) Received: (from unknown@localhost) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e4G9RfC29156; Tue, 16 May 2000 02:27:41 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 02:27:41 -0700 From: Tani Hosokawa To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD Message-ID: <20000516022741.B28657@riverstyx.net> References: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> <200005160645.XAA23891@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005160645.XAA23891@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 11:45:26PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 11:45:26PM -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > > Here's Linus quoted inside on why he doesn't do source control: > > > > "The purely technical side of keeping track of the sources can be > > handled by source control packages," says Torvalds, "but at least, in > > my opinion, they actually tend to favor the approach of 'Let's put > > this in now; if it turns out to be a mistake, we can always revert it > > because we have source control.' And of course, nobody ever actually > > does clean up anything. Or hardly ever. So I think the real problem in > > computer science is to have quality control before it even hits the > > distribution, and so far there isn't any other package than the human > > brain that can do that job." > > This is exactly like his other argument - "debuggers are for wimps". > BTW, there is a company that Larry McVoy founded, (www.bitmover.com) > whose only purpose was to help Linus maintain his sanity. I'm not > sure if Linus plans to use it. I think it's actually www.bitkeeper.com, in case anyone cares. -- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 5:32:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 6CDF537BA29; Tue, 16 May 2000 05:32:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: mellon@pobox.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> (message from Anatoly Vorobey on Tue, 16 May 2000 08:47:31 +0000) Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD Message-Id: <20000516123254.6CDF537BA29@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Here's Linus quoted inside on why he doesn't do source control: [snip] > > This is so mind-boggingly... misguided?... I just don't know what to > say to this. well, it certainly shows a different mindset. interesting that he says that not using revision control keeps questionable software out of the system given the relative stability of Linux and *BSD. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 6:35:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4FD9F37B8DF for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 06:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 63871 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 06:28:26 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 May 2000 06:28:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 19763 invoked by uid 211); 16 May 2000 06:28:26 -0000 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:58:25 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD Message-ID: <20000516115825.B19647@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com>; from mellon@pobox.com on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 08:47:31AM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey said on May 16, 2000 at 08:47:31: > http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html > > (the headpiece of today's Salon). > > Here's Linus quoted inside on why he doesn't do source control: > > "The purely technical side of keeping track of the sources can be > handled by source control packages," says Torvalds, "but at least, in > my opinion, they actually tend to favor the approach of 'Let's put > this in now; if it turns out to be a mistake, we can always revert it > because we have source control.' And of course, nobody ever actually > does clean up anything. Or hardly ever. So I think the real problem in > computer science is to have quality control before it even hits the > distribution, and so far there isn't any other package than the human > brain that can do that job." > > This is so mind-boggingly... misguided?... I just don't know what to > say to this. He also doesn't like kernel debuggers, on the grounds that they make you try to cure the symptom rather than the problem. He prefers that people stare at the code until they see what's wrong with it. Well, whatever suits him -- and linux has improved phenomenally in the last 3 years, ie since its 1.2 days, so he must be doing something right. One can't say what *would* have happened if he'd done things differently. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 6:42:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77A437B670 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 06:42:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7D0C3755B; Tue, 16 May 2000 06:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5591D89; Tue, 16 May 2000 06:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:43:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: mellon@pobox.com, tms2@mail.ptd.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000514115701.AE00637B608@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 May 2000, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: :> :> I know. But why can't a game be copyrighted? Isn't it a result of :> hard work? Shouldn't the players (or so "that" logic goes) be compensated :> for their hard work? : copyright is the result of laws passed by congress. logic, :fairness and consistency enter into the process while trying to get :enough votes to pass the bill into law, not while the bill is being :drafted, or being reviewed by committee. Copyright is not congressional law. Copyright is written into the main body of the Constitution. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 7: 6:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CC537B93A for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:06:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (tiddler.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.243]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32101D136 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 15:06:14 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3921654D.86454A0@originative.co.uk> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:12:13 +0000 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Internet access in Canada Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm going to be in Canada next week, is there any way of getting temporary internet access for 10 days or so from an ISP there? Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 7:23:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C4D37B9C7 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9AA56755B; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D931D89; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD In-Reply-To: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 May 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: :http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html : :(the headpiece of today's Salon). : :Here's Linus quoted inside on why he doesn't do source control: : :"The purely technical side of keeping track of the sources can be :handled by source control packages," says Torvalds, "but at least, in :my opinion, they actually tend to favor the approach of 'Let's put :this in now; if it turns out to be a mistake, we can always revert it :because we have source control.' And of course, nobody ever actually :does clean up anything. Or hardly ever. So I think the real problem in :computer science is to have quality control before it even hits the :distribution, and so far there isn't any other package than the human :brain that can do that job." : :This is so mind-boggingly... misguided?... I just don't know what to :say to this. Quit being overly polite. This falls under blatant stupidity caused by extreme arrogance. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 7:27:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6095937B53B for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:27:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D8413755B; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D548A1D89; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:28:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <39210802.4CA91E8A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 May 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: :According to a recent Linux Journal article, several true legal experts :have offered the opinion that it is too restrictive in some areas, too :vague in others and even we non-experts can easily see that it is a :twisted morass of confusing legalese. That's enough to make quite a :significant crowd of developers reject it in favor of a much simpler and :less vindictive (more free) license. :Hitler. The Nazis. Mussolini too. Now, is this thread dead? Nowhere in Godwin's law is it stated that the reference of Nazism or Hitler will kill a thred. Godwin's merely states that if a thread goes on long enough, chances of references to the above go to one. There is a corrollary which states that intentionally Godwinating a thread is doomed to failure I believe. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 7:37:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4F937B790 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:37:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA08295; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:38:37 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:38:37 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD Message-ID: <20000516173837.A8277@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 07:24:29AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 07:24:29AM -0700, Jamie Bowden wrote: > :This is so mind-boggingly... misguided?... I just don't know what to > :say to this. > > Quit being overly polite. This falls under blatant stupidity caused by > extreme arrogance. You're right to an unobviously large degree. I actually wrote "idiotic", after which my misguided politeness got the better of me. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 7:45: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7A837B8F2 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 07:45:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28012; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:44:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13665; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:44:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13661; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:44:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:44:54 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Brett Glass Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL only patents In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000515234828.04172cf0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Yes, I'm aware of this. Note that the philosophy here is that it's > OK if the FSF enjoys the monopoly conferred by patents, but not if > a programmer uses it to ensure that he is able to make a livelihood. > Another example of how, in Richard Stallman's "Humpty Dumpty" > world, some are "more equal than others." Does anyone else find the whole concept "predatory and anticompetitive?" J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 8:12:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A917937BA77 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 08:12:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from johann@egenetics.com) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #2) id 12rj1H-000Cf9-00; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:12:27 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:12:27 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516171227.A48641@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: <39210802.4CA91E8A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 07:28:45AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 07:28:45AM -0700, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Tue, 16 May 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > :Hitler. The Nazis. Mussolini too. Now, is this thread dead? > > Nowhere in Godwin's law is it stated that the reference of Nazism or > Hitler will kill a thred. Godwin's merely states that if a thread goes on > long enough, chances of references to the above go to one. There is a > corrollary which states that intentionally Godwinating a thread is doomed > to failure I believe. Yes, it's known as Quirk's Exception. See: http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/godwin.faq -- V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 8:21:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8750A37B8BD for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 08:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 63809 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 06:21:01 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 May 2000 06:21:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 19725 invoked by uid 211); 16 May 2000 06:20:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:50:59 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , David Schwartz , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516115059.A19647@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <002301bfbec0$ec53b3d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <20000515100959.57288@techunix.technion.ac.il> <3.0.6.32.20000515210946.009676c0@mail85.pair.com> <4.3.1.2.20000515235734.042edbf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000515235734.042edbf0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 12:01:09AM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE > > > > > > Version 2, June 1991 > > > > > >Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 675 Mass Ave, > > > Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. Everyone > > >is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license > > > document, but changing it is not allowed. > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >It is an all or nothing proposition. You either go with GPL all the way, or > >you don't use it at all. > > Interesting! Stallman frequently states that he wants anyone to be able to > tinker with anyone's intellectual property and that the whole concept of > such property is fundamentally wrong. (He even stated, in an interview in > BYTE, s that to prevent someone from modifying it is "sabotage.") Yet > here, he not only claims a copyright but attempts to prohibit modifications > and the creation of derivative works. I suspect you have a habit of quoting him partially or out of context to suit your view of him. You can at least supply references and exact quotes. Yes, he dislikes the term intellectual "property", but he also says he doesn't see a good reason to allow modification of literary works and so on, or research paper, and to permit it would be to tamper with records. But he does believe that educational material, reviews, textbooks and things like that should preferably be "copylefted", to permit correction of errors, and he strongly advocates copylefted manuals. See for instance, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-doc.html, As a general rule, I don't believe that it is essential for people to have permission to modify all sorts of articles and books. The issues for writings are not necessarily the same as those for software. For example, I don't think you or I are obliged to give permission to modify articles like this one, which describe our actions and our views. But there is a particular reason why the freedom to modify is crucial for documentation for free software.... Elsewhere (I can't remember where, offhand) he has justified why he prohibits changing the GPL. There are obvious reasons why not: it would possibly weaken its ability to preserve the freedoms it advocates, further down the redistribution line; and it would serve no useful purpose. If you want a GPL-like license with some changes, write your own and call it something else. Lots of people have done that. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 8:29:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B00437B791 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 08:29:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r43.bfm.org [216.127.220.139]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:29:52 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000516102850.0089c210@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:28:50 -0500 To: James Howard , Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: GPL only patents Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000515234828.04172cf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:44 16-05-2000 -0400, James Howard wrote: >> Yes, I'm aware of this. Note that the philosophy here is that it's >> OK if the FSF enjoys the monopoly conferred by patents, but not if >> a programmer uses it to ensure that he is able to make a livelihood. >> Another example of how, in Richard Stallman's "Humpty Dumpty" >> world, some are "more equal than others." > >Does anyone else find the whole concept "predatory and anticompetitive?" As I have just argued on the Unicode list, I view the whole thing as a marketing gimmick. FSF gives away free software, then sells expensive manuals and "support". Nothing wrong with that alone, of course. The problem starts with exactly what you said: FSF is predatory and anticompetitive. It has turned its marketing strategy into an ideology: All software "must" be free, not just theirs. FSF also acts as a self-appointed messiah and representative of free software. Personally, I have been writing free software for decades, and I don't need anyone to act like my spokesperson. Stallman did not invent free software (the article discussed in a different threat clearly shows how the idea existed at Berkeley, for example), nor is he in any way the reason many of us give our software away. I find it offensive he is trying to take credit for other people's effort. I view Stallman and Microsoft as two sides of the same coin. Both try not to compete, but to control. Their tactics may be different, but it is the same predatory mindset that motivates them. Just MHO, of course. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 8:47: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 7DE5037B92A; Tue, 16 May 2000 08:47:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: ragnar@sysabend.org Cc: mellon@pobox.com, tms2@mail.ptd.net, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (message from Jamie Bowden on Tue, 16 May 2000 06:43:48 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-Id: <20000516154703.7DE5037B92A@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Copyright is not congressional law. Copyright is written into the main > body of the Constitution. > Jamie, You are right. I should have remembered that ;( Article I, Section 8: To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries; which Congress has used a the basis of copyright law. without copyright law, we would not know how long the "limited times to authors and inventors" get to hold their "exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries". per the constitution, one simply can not say what the time period should be. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 8:56:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B5C37B554 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 08:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtir8.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.203.104]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29474 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 11:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39217151.2D64D573@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:03:29 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <39210802.4CA91E8A@mindspring.com> <20000516171227.A48641@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Johann Visagie wrote: > > On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 07:28:45AM -0700, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > On Tue, 16 May 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > > :Hitler. The Nazis. Mussolini too. Now, is this thread dead? > > > > Nowhere in Godwin's law is it stated that the reference of Nazism or > > Hitler will kill a thred. Godwin's merely states that if a thread goes on > > long enough, chances of references to the above go to one. There is a > > corrollary which states that intentionally Godwinating a thread is doomed > > to failure I believe. > > Yes, it's known as Quirk's Exception. See: > > http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/godwin.faq > Rats! :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 9: 2:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFACE37B87B; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:02:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25389; Tue, 16 May 2000 12:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21461; Tue, 16 May 2000 12:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21457; Tue, 16 May 2000 12:02:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:02:24 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: ragnar@sysabend.org, mellon@pobox.com, tms2@mail.ptd.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000516154703.7DE5037B92A@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 May 2000, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > their respective writings and discoveries". per the constitution, > one simply can not say what the time period should be. I would consider this an advantage. Remember, most of the United States Constitution is written in a very vague way. This is why there have only been 27 ammendments made in 200+ years. Of course this leads to the classic arguement, "this is not what the Framers had in mind." Of course, I am not a mind reader today and I certainly wasn't 215 years ago. All I know is what they wrote down. And this is why every American should have a tank in his garage. :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 9:40: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kris.huntsvilleal.com (kris.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952E237B896 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 09:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kris.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA45636 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:42:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:42:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yowza! In-Reply-To: <200005160711.JAA87663@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It is pretty non-trivial to open an Athlon processor module, > and I'm pretty sure that you cannot do it without leaving > traces (unless you have very special tools). You certainly > void the warranty doing that (there are no sevicable parts > inside anyway). Even the specialized tools make marks. They usually throw the cases away after they've been put on a module and then taken off. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 10:20:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B916C37BAC8 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e4GHqJd08603; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:52:19 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Kiril Mitev Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL or not (was: Backend in Minivend) Message-ID: <20000516105219.B7949@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <4.3.1.2.20000515122445.04077a10@localhost> <200005161705.RAA01522@loki.ideaglobal.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005161705.RAA01522@loki.ideaglobal.com>; from kiril@loki.ideaglobal.com on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 05:05:45PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Kiril Mitev [000516 10:31] wrote: > > A better example, which shows the real danger, is as follows. > > Suppose that you run your e-commerce server on Debian Linux. Under > > Perens' proposed regime, you would be forced to give away (for > > free!) the code you used in your business because it was serving > > the public and running on a GPLed OS. > > > > Talk about a nasty land grab. > > > > --Brett > > Just out of plain idle dumb curiosity - what about all those > non_linux OS'es that are compiled with GCC ? The output of GCC is not GPL'd > (Oh, and mv to -chat, plz) And why couldn't you? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 10:52: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74AB37B738 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r37.bfm.org [216.127.220.133]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Tue, 16 May 2000 12:52:49 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000516125151.00895b00@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:51:51 -0500 To: James Howard From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000516154703.7DE5037B92A@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:02 16-05-2000 -0400, James Howard wrote: >Of course, I am not a mind reader today and I >certainly wasn't 215 years ago. You mean you remember that? :-)))) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 11:14:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E5F37B9D2 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 16 May 2000 11:13:38 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Narvi" Cc: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Anatoly Vorobey" , "Neil Blakey-Milner" , Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:14:46 -0700 Message-ID: <002701bfbf62$9dbb9600$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > No you can't do that, since you don't have permission to. > > The law regarding > > copyright is not that you can do anything you aren't > > specifically prohibited > > from doing. You may only do what you are specifically allowed to do. > > > > The GPL would be worthless if people could preface it with > > any clauses they > > wanted to that modified its terms in any way they wanted. The > > instructions > > for how to apply the GPL to your own code _IS_ the distribution > > agreement. > > It is the only document that grants you the right to distribute the GPL. > This can't be true. If this were true, teh perl dual licence under GPL and > asrtistic would not be possible. Since the artistic license is not a modified GPL, your reply is a non-sequiter. You should also note that any contributions to perl submitted under the GPL cannot be added to the artistic license version. You would be right if the person who dual-licensed perl in the first place had the ability to maintain the dual license. For example, if RMS permitted him to add a clause that said that if anybody released contributions to the GPL-licensed version, they implicitly agree to allow those changes to be distributed with the artistic license version. But since this is not the case, the two licenses are completely independent and the two versions could lead different lives. One doesn't modify or change the other. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 11:53:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c1870039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8A737BB1B; Tue, 16 May 2000 11:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA42162; Tue, 16 May 2000 20:53:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <392199BB.1F5058CA@nisser.com> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:55:55 +0200 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: cjclark@home.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BUGTRAQ Vulnerabilities Stats References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > > FreeBSD has the most of the *BSD listed (Free, Net, and Open) with > > 1999 having quite a spike (but almost all OSes have a spike in > > '99). The big 2.2 to 3 jump is probably a big part of that. > > I also think they're counting ports among the FreeBSD vulnerabilities, > which gives us an unfair disadvantage because often in fact the > vulnerability is not anything freebsd-specific, it was just first > publicized as being "vulnerable on FreeBSD". > ... Not just that, but I also noticed they're listing IIS (4.0 and 5.0) separately from the OS for NT. NT being the only OS it's been ported to, does that mean the figures for those should be added to the ones for the OS? Same holds for BackOffice. Yet in that list there are no separate categories for the *nix apps. Or even the distinction between OS and non-OS bugs. Roelof -- Dog's home @ http://cairni.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 12:22:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8C037BB08 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 12:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08925; Tue, 16 May 2000 15:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA10544; Tue, 16 May 2000 15:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10527; Tue, 16 May 2000 15:21:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:21:46 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000516125151.00895b00@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 May 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 12:02 16-05-2000 -0400, James Howard wrote: > >Of course, I am not a mind reader today and I > >certainly wasn't 215 years ago. > > You mean you remember that? :-)))) That was my point. I am only 20 years old :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 12:27: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 90FA137BAEE for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 12:26:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 71620 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 19:26:34 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 May 2000 19:26:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 22475 invoked by uid 211); 16 May 2000 19:26:33 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:56:33 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000517005633.B22400@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000516044511.B8613@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <002a01bfbec5$2faec1c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <002a01bfbec5$2faec1c0$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 04:27:50PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For the record, this is what RMS says. He doesn't exactly answer my question (I had made it clear that I'm not asking whether it is desirable, only whether it's allowed), but from the tone of his answer I would imagine that it is not prohibited to do this, merely a "bad idea". I've found that when one has a serious doubt about the GPL or his intentions behind it, the simplest thing to do is to ask him: he always replies. Moreover, he is genuinely concerned about clearing up misconceptions (like the suggestion that he opposes using the LGPL for all future libraries). The trouble (as with many other controversial people) is that people prefer to trust second hand information rather than read his writings directly and understand what he's saying. From: Richard Stallman To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in Subject: Re: GPL question Is it ok to license one's software under "version 2 of the GPL, and only that version"? It is a bad idea, because when we have GPL version 3 and release other programs under version 3, your program will be stuck at GPL version 2. And it will be illegal to copy code between your program and all the other GPL-covered programs that are released under GPL version 3. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 13: 3:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 863A537B53B for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 13:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA73555; Tue, 16 May 2000 22:02:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:02:26 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <002701bfbf62$9dbb9600$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 May 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > No you can't do that, since you don't have permission to. > > > The law regarding > > > copyright is not that you can do anything you aren't > > > specifically prohibited > > > from doing. You may only do what you are specifically allowed to do. > > > > > > The GPL would be worthless if people could preface it with > > > any clauses they > > > wanted to that modified its terms in any way they wanted. The > > > instructions > > > for how to apply the GPL to your own code _IS_ the distribution > > > agreement. > > > It is the only document that grants you the right to distribute the GPL. > > > This can't be true. If this were true, teh perl dual licence under GPL and > > asrtistic would not be possible. > > Since the artistic license is not a modified GPL, your reply is a > non-sequiter. You should also note that any contributions to perl submitted > under the GPL cannot be added to the artistic license version. > The perl licence is an aggregate licence 'Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5.0 source kit. ' This is something (GPL + other conditions/allowances/claims prefixing it) you have claimed not possible. > You would be right if the person who dual-licensed perl in the first place > had the ability to maintain the dual license. For example, if RMS permitted > him to add a clause that said that if anybody released contributions to the > GPL-licensed version, they implicitly agree to allow those changes to be > distributed with the artistic license version. > What's the point in arguing with you if you actually don't even bother to look up the basics about things you are arguing about, in this case how perl is licenced? > But since this is not the case, the two licenses are completely independent > and the two versions could lead different lives. One doesn't modify or > change the other. > Get a grip on the real situation. Research matters as they exist in the Real World (tm). > DS > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 13:46:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A4337BB40; Tue, 16 May 2000 13:46:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@linkfast.net) Received: by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 81CBC9B0B; Tue, 16 May 2000 15:46:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:46:20 -0500 From: Matthew Fuller To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OpenSSH 2.1 Message-ID: <20000516154620.G660@linkfast.net> References: <54363.958457686@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 12:16:57PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 16, 2000 at 12:16:57PM -0700, a little birdie told me that Kris Kennaway remarked > > OTGH, what *were* you talking about? :-) Hehehe! I at least got that acronym, I can only dream that a large number of others did... Congratulations though, I've been waiting for an opportunity to throw that phrase into a debate and see how many people got it ;> -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@linkfast.net Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 13:47:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C512137BB83 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 13:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 16 May 2000 13:46:19 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Anatoly Vorobey" , Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:47:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000701bfbf77$f2159f60$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000517005633.B22400@physics.iisc.ernet.in> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > For the record, this is what RMS says. He doesn't exactly answer > my question (I had made it clear that I'm not asking whether it > is desirable, only whether it's allowed), but from the tone of his > answer I would imagine that it is not prohibited to do this, > merely a "bad idea". First of all, what RMS says (other than him specifically granting permission for people to do things) is irrelevant. His opinion of the GPL holds no more legal force than anybody else's opinion. The situation is analogous the Linus' note at the beginning of the COPYING file include with Linux. It's an opinion and doesn't grant or revoke any permissions, at least not as far as I can tell. > From: Richard Stallman > To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in > Subject: Re: GPL question > > Is it ok to license one's software under "version 2 of the GPL, and > only that version"? > > It is a bad idea, because when we have GPL version 3 and release other > programs under version 3, your program will be stuck at GPL version 2. > And it will be illegal to copy code between your program and all the > other GPL-covered programs that are released under GPL version 3. I think he perceived your question as one of whether it would have adverse consequences, not as whether it would be okay. In any event, one premise of his response is faulty. The same problem would occur even if you allowed any later version. Note that the "or later version" clause applies to the terms under which you can redistribute and/or modify the software. It doesn't grant you any permission to modify the license itself and it certainly doesn't give you the power to remove privileges that other licensees might have. So if you had code that shipped with GPL version 2 (even if it allowed you to distribute it under the terms of a later version), it's not clear how you could combine it what code that shipped with GPL version 3. The GPL version 3 code does not permit itself to be combined with anything licensed under an earlier version, and the later version clause doesn't allow you to modify the terms themselves. There is a big difference between redistributing and modifying a product under different terms and modifying the licensing terms themselves. I don't see how the former implies the latter. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 13:52:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E414037B738 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 13:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 16 May 2000 13:51:41 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Narvi" Cc: Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:52:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfbf78$b1b345c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, 16 May 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > The perl licence is an aggregate licence > > 'Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic > License or the GNU General Public License, which may be found in > the Perl 5.0 source kit. ' > > This is something (GPL + other conditions/allowances/claims prefixing it) > you have claimed not possible. And it's not. The GPL is someone's property, and permission to use the GPL in this manner has not been granted on a blanket basis. The GPL does state: "Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed." But this does not grant permission to apply the GPL to your works however you please. As far as I can tell, the only such grant is contained in the "How to Apply These Terms to your New Programs" sections, which doesn't permit this. If you can find something specific that permits this, please cite it. Otherwise, perl's use of the GPL is as much a violation of its terms as Linux's use. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 13:56:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAD337B8E9 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 13:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA84370; Tue, 16 May 2000 15:54:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:54:51 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schwartz , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000517005633.B22400@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 May 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > From: Richard Stallman > To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in > Subject: Re: GPL question > > Is it ok to license one's software under "version 2 of the GPL, and > only that version"? > > It is a bad idea, because when we have GPL version 3 and release other > programs under version 3, your program will be stuck at GPL version 2. > And it will be illegal to copy code between your program and all the > other GPL-covered programs that are released under GPL version 3. > Of course, if you release code under the standard "version n, or any later version", and FSF gets bought out by Microsoft^Wthe forces of evil, and releases version 3 of the license which says "screw you, we get all the rights", you can't do much but whine. If it really ever became an issue, the original author -- or his copyright inheritor -- can re-release under the new license. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 14: 3:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AC6BB37B797 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:03:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 72798 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 21:03:13 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 May 2000 21:03:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 13195 invoked by uid 211); 16 May 2000 21:03:12 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 02:33:12 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Scheidt Cc: David Schwartz , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000517023312.B13129@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000517005633.B22400@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 03:54:51PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt said on May 16, 2000 at 15:54:51: > On Wed, 17 May 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > From: Richard Stallman > > To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in > > Subject: Re: GPL question > > > > Is it ok to license one's software under "version 2 of the GPL, and > > only that version"? > > > > It is a bad idea, because when we have GPL version 3 and release other > > programs under version 3, your program will be stuck at GPL version 2. > > And it will be illegal to copy code between your program and all the > > other GPL-covered programs that are released under GPL version 3. > > > > Of course, if you release code under the standard "version n, or any later > version", and FSF gets bought out by Microsoft^Wthe forces of evil, and > releases version 3 of the license which says "screw you, we get all the > rights", you can't do much but whine. If it really ever became an issue, > the original author -- or his copyright inheritor -- can re-release under > the new license. It is *already* out there under version 2. Nobody will be *forced* to reissue it under version 3. If Microsoft did do what you say, it would be no worse than if they took BSD code and put their own license on it -- they can't take back the earlier license from people who already received it. It will not stop people distributing existing versions, developing them further under GPL 2, and *not* putting GPL 3 on it. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 14: 5:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 34A9137BB95 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:05:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 72834 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 21:05:18 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 May 2000 21:05:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 13207 invoked by uid 211); 16 May 2000 21:05:16 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 02:35:16 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000517023516.C13129@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000517005633.B22400@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <000701bfbf77$f2159f60$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000701bfbf77$f2159f60$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 01:47:27PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > For the record, this is what RMS says. He doesn't exactly answer > > my question (I had made it clear that I'm not asking whether it > > is desirable, only whether it's allowed), but from the tone of his > > answer I would imagine that it is not prohibited to do this, > > merely a "bad idea". > > First of all, what RMS says (other than him specifically granting > permission for people to do things) is irrelevant. His opinion of the GPL > holds no more legal force than anybody else's opinion. All right. So please point me a single paragraph in the GPL which tells you that you must agree to allow replacing the GPL v2 by any future version. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 14:17:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFEE37B88F for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:17:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA90941; Tue, 16 May 2000 16:16:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:16:07 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schwartz , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000517023312.B13129@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 May 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > It is *already* out there under version 2. Nobody will be *forced* to > reissue it under version 3. If Microsoft did do what you say, it > would be no worse than if they took BSD code and put their own license > on it -- they can't take back the earlier license from people who > already received it. It will not stop people distributing existing > versions, developing them further under GPL 2, and *not* putting GPL 3 > on it. Yes. Of course. But the rhetoric around the GPL is that it means the software is always free, and something like this simply can't happen. Clearly, under the language that stuff gets licensed under, it could. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 14:17:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4BC37BB62 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:17:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:16:44 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Anatoly Vorobey" , Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:17:52 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfbf7c$31d2ed20$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <20000517023516.C13129@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > For the record, this is what RMS says. He doesn't exactly answer > > > my question (I had made it clear that I'm not asking whether it > > > is desirable, only whether it's allowed), but from the tone of his > > > answer I would imagine that it is not prohibited to do this, > > > merely a "bad idea". > > > > First of all, what RMS says (other than him specifically granting > > permission for people to do things) is irrelevant. His opinion > of the GPL > > holds no more legal force than anybody else's opinion. > > All right. So please point me a single paragraph in the GPL which tells > you that you must agree to allow replacing the GPL v2 by any > future version. The GPL states: "How to Apply These Terms to Your New Programs If you develop a new program, and you want it to be of the greatest possible use to the public, the best way to achieve this is to make it free software which everyone can redistribute and change under these terms. To do so, attach the following notices to the program. It is safest to attach them to the start of each source file to most effectively convey the exclusion of warranty; and each file should have at least the "copyright" line and a pointer to where the full notice is found. Copyright (C) 19yy This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA" That's how the GPL permits you to use it. This part of the GPL is no more optional than any other part of it. Again, far from a suggestion, this portion of the GPL is the only portion that grants permission to apply the GPL to your own software. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 14:23:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B795637B54B for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA92908; Tue, 16 May 2000 16:22:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:22:58 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: David Schwartz Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <000001bfbf7c$31d2ed20$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 May 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > The GPL states: > > "How to Apply These Terms to Your New Programs > > If you develop a new program, and you want it to be of the greatest > possible use to the public, the best way to achieve this is to make it ^^^^^^ > > That's how the GPL permits you to use it. This part of the GPL is no more What part of "best" means "only"? David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 14:23:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368F637B54B for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:23:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14286; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA21701; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21695; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:22:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:22:36 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: David Schwartz Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <000001bfbf7c$31d2ed20$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 May 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > If you develop a new program, and you want it to be of the greatest > possible use to the public, the best way to achieve this is to make it What is BSD-licensed, Alex? J~ :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 14:27:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB5837B88F for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:26:38 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "David Scheidt" Cc: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Anatoly Vorobey" , Subject: RE: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:27:45 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfbf7d$93a58a20$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, 16 May 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > The GPL states: > > "How to Apply These Terms to Your New Programs > > If you develop a new program, and you want it to be of the greatest > > possible use to the public, the best way to achieve this is to make it > > > > > That's how the GPL permits you to use it. This part of the > GPL is no more > What part of "best" means "only"? 1) Authorization is required to use somebody else's protected work. 2) This is the only means authorized. How hard is this to understand? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 14:48: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8A1C37BB79 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:45:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 73401 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 21:45:23 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 May 2000 21:45:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 13315 invoked by uid 211); 16 May 2000 21:45:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 03:15:21 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000517031520.F13129@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000517023516.C13129@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <000001bfbf7c$31d2ed20$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000001bfbf7c$31d2ed20$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from davids@webmaster.com on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 02:17:52PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The GPL states: > > "How to Apply These Terms to Your New Programs > > If you develop a new program, and you want it to be of the greatest > possible use to the public, the best way to achieve this is to make it > free software which everyone can redistribute and change under these terms. > > To do so, attach the following notices to the program. It is safest > to attach them to the start of each source file to most effectively > convey the exclusion of warranty; and each file should have at least > the "copyright" line and a pointer to where the full notice is found. > > > Copyright (C) 19yy > > This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify > it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by > the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or > (at your option) any later version. -snip > That's how the GPL permits you to use it. This part of the GPL is no more > optional than any other part of it. Again, far from a suggestion, this > portion of the GPL is the only portion that grants permission to apply the > GPL to your own software. It seems to be a suggestion, not compulsory. That is suggested from something that occurs in the GPL earlier, which I quoted before: Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Program specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation. If the Program does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation. So you have the option of not specifying a version at all, in which case the recipient may replace it with any version he chooses. That's also ok because it doesn't break compatibility with future versions. As for specifying "version 2 only", that should also be possible but not recommended. Or the "no version number" bit may be for backward compatibility with version 1, with which I'm not familiar. I don't know. But even supposing you're right, I maintain that it makes no practical difference as to who controls your code; a change of license is still an *option* and it is in no way worse than the possibility of someone changing the license of BSD code -- unless all the earlier, liberally-licensed code becomes destroyed in some global cataclysm. The best example is OpenSSH; the SSH people chose a restrictive license for later versions of SSH, but that didn't stop the OpenBSD people from taking an early version and developing it further. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 14:51:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DB6537BB8D for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 14:51:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 73463 invoked from network); 16 May 2000 21:51:11 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 May 2000 21:51:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 13325 invoked by uid 211); 16 May 2000 21:51:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 03:21:11 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Scheidt Cc: David Schwartz , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000517032110.G13129@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000517023312.B13129@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Tue, May 16, 2000 at 04:16:07PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It is *already* out there under version 2. Nobody will be *forced* to > > reissue it under version 3. If Microsoft did do what you say, it > > would be no worse than if they took BSD code and put their own license > > on it -- they can't take back the earlier license from people who > > already received it. It will not stop people distributing existing > > versions, developing them further under GPL 2, and *not* putting GPL 3 > > on it. > > Yes. Of course. But the rhetoric around the GPL is that it means the > software is always free, and something like this simply can't happen. > Clearly, under the language that stuff gets licensed under, it could. Ah, the rhetoric is a different matter. Of course it can happen. It can also happen that the courts rule some aspect of the GPL invalid.... R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 16:56:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9988337B968 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 16:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08895; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:55:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000516175053.045fb300@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:55:43 -0600 To: James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL only patents Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000515234828.04172cf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:44 AM 5/16/2000, James Howard wrote: >On Mon, 15 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > Yes, I'm aware of this. Note that the philosophy here is that it's > > OK if the FSF enjoys the monopoly conferred by patents, but not if > > a programmer uses it to ensure that he is able to make a livelihood. > > Another example of how, in Richard Stallman's "Humpty Dumpty" > > world, some are "more equal than others." > >Does anyone else find the whole concept "predatory and anticompetitive?" Of course! That's the whole purpose of the FSF: to use the same tactics that Microsoft used to wipe out Netscape to hurt software vendors. The difference is that it's not just SOME software vendors, it's ALL of them. 16 years ago, the young Richard Stallman was traumatized when his colleagues at the MIT AI Lab depopulated his personal Nirvana by leaving to found commercial software companies. He has vowed vengeance on them and their kind ever since. While some of his writings claim more noble purposes, others -- and many of his public speeches -- let his true intentions show through. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 17:42:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2D537B6E7 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24208; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:41:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA.HaioV; Tue May 16 17:41:30 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25962; Tue, 16 May 2000 17:42:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005170042.RAA25962@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? To: redprince@redprince.net (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:42:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jhix@mindspring.com (W Gerald Hicks), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000513184603.00896100@mail85.pair.com> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at May 13, 2000 06:46:03 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > But patents do not protect a property, they protect discovery of natural > laws. When someone invents something, he discovers some law of nature, he > discovers how things work. But those laws are not his. They were always > here, we just did not know about them. A patent does not really protect > ownership of a discovery, rather it grants the discoverer a temporary > exclusive use of his own discovery. I think its main purpose is to > encourage the discoverer into publishing of his discovery. Without patent > protection many discoveries would be kept in secret. For example, the Bessemer process was originally a trade secret. The ability to create red art glass which can be tempered through reheating and not lose its color as a result is still a trade secret. Another, AT&T attempted to suppress the publication of a bootable BSD system on the grounds that they claimed it embodied their trade secrets -- "forgetting" that once disclosed, a trade secret is a trade secret no longer, and one may only seek damages, not secrecy, from the discloser (not that I agree that there were any trade secrets involved: neither did DMR when he filed his Amicus Curie brief, and offered to testify as a professional witness). Finally, we have Zirconium smelting and artificial diamond production, both of which have achieved the status of a high art in the former Soviet Union, but which are held as trade secrets because of a lack of enforcement of intellectual property laws. It seems to me that the wealth of nations is pinned to each ones willingness to enact and enforce intellectual property laws on behalf of its citizenry. I personally dislike a great deal the extent to which patents have infected the software industry: algorithms are not supposed to be patentable, and calling an algorithm a process does not make it so; I will note for the record that this all started with cryptography. Stallman is attempting to put control of the means of production in the hands of society, rather than in the hands of individuals; this is a strategy that is doomed to failure, as many failed experiments with similar results show us. I dislike intentional failures more than I dislike what the patent office has done. For the record, the society owned the means of production in the State of Deseret, as the territory which centered on what later became the sate of Utah was once called. This was in the 1800's, predating most modern Marxist docterine. Children "hacked" the system back then as well: it was common for someone who wanted a new pair of pants from the common stores to intentionally "wear out" their pants using a grinding wheel. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 18:16:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD9737B6A7 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:16:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA08971; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:15:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAB3aqxr; Tue May 16 18:15:31 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08150; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:16:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005170116.SAA08150@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:16:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200005140016.RAA17113@sharmas.dhs.org> from "Arun Sharma" at May 13, 2000 05:16:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > One prime example of this is the Indian state of Kerala, which has > been ruled by communists within the framework of democracy. The state > has the highest literacy in the country, no industries because of labor > problems d and scores very well on most yard sticks of progress. > > On the other hand, many the other "capitalist" states in India have > flourishing industries, but the average man on the street is worse off > than the one in the communist state. It is well known that there is severe corruption in India. There is much less severe corruption in the US. As an example, it can take a dozen months and a significant number of bribes before one can obtain a business license in India. In New York, arguable one of the most corrupt areas of the US, the same thing takes four weeks. In most other areas of the US, it's 2 weeks. In Singapore, it's the same day. Corruption and bureaucracy both as up to stunting progress. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 18:28:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB3BA37B9CA for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 77660 invoked from network); 17 May 2000 01:28:34 -0000 Received: from outpost5.inspire.net.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (203.96.157.29) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 17 May 2000 01:28:34 -0000 Message-ID: <3921F415.B6F47AF1@outpost.co.nz> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:21:25 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <200005170116.SAA08150@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > As an example, it can take a dozen months and a significant number > of bribes before one can obtain a business license in India. > > In New York, arguable one of the most corrupt areas of the US, > the same thing takes four weeks. > > In most other areas of the US, it's 2 weeks. > > In Singapore, it's the same day. > > Corruption and bureaucracy both as up to stunting progress. What's a "business license"? My company has a certificate of incorporation, but if I was a sole trader I wouldn't need that. We have a GST#/IRD#, for the purposes of identification with the Revenue. But I don't really need one of those to start trading if I'm turning over less than NZ$30k pa, until I've got some kind of return to make to the Revenue (most likely PAYE at the end of the first month). Getting such a number here takes about 2-5 days from filling in the appropriate form and submitting it to IRD. But a "business license"? Wassat? -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 18:38:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233C137B726 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:38:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA25972; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:38:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:38:07 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000516183807.A25954@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <200005140016.RAA17113@sharmas.dhs.org> <200005170116.SAA08150@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <200005170116.SAA08150@usr05.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, May 17, 2000 at 01:16:00AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 01:16:00AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > One prime example of this is the Indian state of Kerala, which has > > been ruled by communists within the framework of democracy. The state > > has the highest literacy in the country, no industries because of labor > > problems d and scores very well on most yard sticks of progress. > > > > On the other hand, many the other "capitalist" states in India have > > flourishing industries, but the average man on the street is worse off > > than the one in the communist state. > > It is well known that there is severe corruption in India. There > is much less severe corruption in the US. What does corruption have to do with the above discussion ? I'd think the communist state is less corrupt than the rest of the country, because the kind of corruption common in India is more due to poverty than greed. The communist state being better educated and idealistic, is less prone to corruption than other states. -Arun PS: I've also observed that the usage of "GNU/Linux" and GPL are very popular in that state. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 18:39: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE77C37B726; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:38:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10848; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:38:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGKaiiv; Tue May 16 18:38:30 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08616; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:38:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005170138.SAA08616@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? To: jmb@hub.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:38:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mellon@pobox.com, tms2@mail.ptd.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000514115701.AE00637B608@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at May 14, 2000 04:57:01 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > copyright is the result of laws passed by congress. No. Copyright in the U.S. is a result of the idea of securing limited rights to authors and inventors in exchange for disclosure of their work in order to promote progress in the arts and sciences. This was codified by the U.S. founders in the U.S. Constitution. The laws are merely an instrumentality, as the GPL is an instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto (and not a very good one at that; the eCOS license is much more aligned with the goals of the GNU Manifesto than the GPL). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 18:41:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A28837B726 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:41:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA22053; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:11:51 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:11:51 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How is "TeX" typically pronounced? Message-ID: <20000517111151.A22008@freebie.lemis.com> References: <200005141603.SAA97395@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 15 May 2000 at 16:59:38 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: >> In the first case, the sound is produced by the middle part of >> the tongue (between tongue and palate), in the second case it >> is produced by the back part of the tongue (it comes from the >> throat). The latter is the correct pronunciation for "chi" and >> "TeX". > > Technically speaking, the first is unvoiced, the second is voiced. Well, no, they're both unvoiced. There aren't many voiced equivalents in European languages, though I'm not sure about the "G" in Dutch "Genever". Arabic has kha (unvoiced) and ghain (voiced). The sound is similar to guttural 'r' in German or French. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 18:56:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F0E37BA0E for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:56:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09870; Tue, 16 May 2000 19:56:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000516195535.0461c2c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:56:29 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200005170116.SAA08150@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200005140016.RAA17113@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:16 PM 5/16/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >It is well known that there is severe corruption in India. There >is much less severe corruption in the US. > >As an example, it can take a dozen months and a significant number >of bribes before one can obtain a business license in India. > >In New York, arguable one of the most corrupt areas of the US, >the same thing takes four weeks. > >In most other areas of the US, it's 2 weeks. > >In Singapore, it's the same day. And in Wyoming, which has a citizen legislature, you don't need to get one at all. --Brett MCSE = Marginally Competent/Super-Expensive To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 19:10:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F5937B9DF for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 19:10:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA08473; Tue, 16 May 2000 19:09:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHxaaEq; Tue May 16 19:09:33 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA09486; Tue, 16 May 2000 19:10:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005170210.TAA09486@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 02:10:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000516183807.A25954@sharmas.dhs.org> from "Arun Sharma" at May 16, 2000 06:38:07 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > One prime example of this is the Indian state of Kerala, which has > > > been ruled by communists within the framework of democracy. The state > > > has the highest literacy in the country, no industries because of labor > > > problems d and scores very well on most yard sticks of progress. > > > > > > On the other hand, many the other "capitalist" states in India have > > > flourishing industries, but the average man on the street is worse off > > > than the one in the communist state. > > > > It is well known that there is severe corruption in India. There > > is much less severe corruption in the US. > > > > What does corruption have to do with the above discussion ? I'd think > the communist state is less corrupt than the rest of the country, because > the kind of corruption common in India is more due to poverty than greed. > The communist state being better educated and idealistic, is less prone > to corruption than other states. Education is no protection against corruption; look at the high esteem in which people commonly hold the honor of lawyers... most politicians are lawyers, and most corrupt politicians are corrupt lawyers. This isn't to smear them all with the same brush, but the US has more lawyers in the 5 county area surrounding the San Francisco Bay than there are in all of Europe. You may very well be right that your isolated Communist regime is in fact less corrupt than your isolated "Capitalist" regime (quotes maintained intentionally). This doesn't prove that all fish are trout. Pointing to a corrupt regime that pays lip service to the idea of Capitalism, but is in fact an ideological cesspool in no way proves anything. You are effectively arguing against the existance of altruism; when someone does this, I generally conclude that they read Ayn Rand at an early age, and bought into the idea of the Aristotilian mean that allows people to ask questions like "Yes or no: have you stopped beating your wife?", and expect answers. The problem here is that there are not only two answers, and your argument excludes the middle from consideration. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 20:25: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B6A37B68A for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 20:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10600 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 21:24:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:24:40 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This one's worth a read, though it's somewhat depressing in that it takes the stance that the BSDs have irrevocably "lost" to Linux. See http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html --Brett Glass MCSE = Marginally Competent/Super-Expensive To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 20:43:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE3B37B68A for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 20:43:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA26209; Tue, 16 May 2000 20:43:01 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:43:01 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005170343.UAA26209@sharmas.dhs.org> To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Extreme political views (Was Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already?) In-Reply-To: <200005170210.TAA09486@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200005170210.TAA09486@usr05.primenet.com> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > > > Pointing to a corrupt regime that pays lip service to the idea of > Capitalism, but is in fact an ideological cesspool in no way proves > anything. > > You are effectively arguing against the existance of altruism; when > someone does this, I generally conclude that they read Ayn Rand at > an early age, and bought into the idea of the Aristotilian mean > that allows people to ask questions like "Yes or no: have you > stopped beating your wife?", and expect answers. The problem here > is that there are not only two answers, and your argument excludes > the middle from consideration. > If you go back and read the thread, I was precisely arguing against this kind of black and white portrayal of communism and capitalism (communism = evil, capitalism = success, prosperity). I brought up the Indian state of Kerala as an example where communism wasn't bad for the people - not as a model state. The state has its own set of problems due to the lack of any major industry. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 22:29: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 48AF137B974 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 22:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 78234 invoked by uid 211); 17 May 2000 05:28:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:58:25 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000517105825.A78159@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Arun Sharma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000516183807.A25954@sharmas.dhs.org> <200005170210.TAA09486@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200005170210.TAA09486@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, May 17, 2000 at 02:10:02AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 17, 2000 at 02:10:02: > > > > One prime example of this is the Indian state of Kerala, which has > > > > been ruled by communists within the framework of democracy. The state > > > > has the highest literacy in the country, no industries because of labor > > > > problems d and scores very well on most yard sticks of progress. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, many the other "capitalist" states in India have > > > > flourishing industries, but the average man on the street is worse off > > > > than the one in the communist state. > > > > > > It is well known that there is severe corruption in India. There > > > is much less severe corruption in the US. > > > > > > > > What does corruption have to do with the above discussion ? I'd think > > the communist state is less corrupt than the rest of the country, because > > the kind of corruption common in India is more due to poverty than greed. > > The communist state being better educated and idealistic, is less prone > > to corruption than other states. > > Education is no protection against corruption; look at the high > esteem in which people commonly hold the honor of lawyers... most > politicians are lawyers, and most corrupt politicians are corrupt > lawyers. > > This isn't to smear them all with the same brush, but the US has > more lawyers in the 5 county area surrounding the San Francisco > Bay than there are in all of Europe. > > You may very well be right that your isolated Communist regime > is in fact less corrupt than your isolated "Capitalist" regime > (quotes maintained intentionally). This doesn't prove that all > fish are trout. > > > Pointing to a corrupt regime that pays lip service to the idea of > Capitalism, but is in fact an ideological cesspool in no way proves > anything. I didn't get into this thread earlier, but I strongly disagree with Arun's assessment of Kerala. Yes, it is a highly literate state, but so is its neighbour Tamil Nadu which has little or no communist influence. Kerala's literacy rate shot up substantially from an already high value because of a concerted education drive some years ago. That in itself has little to do with communism, and more to do with the efforts of a group of committed people. And its high value earlier was for historical reasons. Till the 1980s, Indian economic policies were very left wing, and the difference in the economic performance of communist and non-communist states wasn't so great. That changed in the 1990s with the gradual opening of the economy. Kerala has been left far behind compared to its neighbours Tamil Nadu and Karnataka. This has led to its share of troubles and social tensions in the state. I'd blame the communists entirely for that. The only other state with a notable communist presence, Bengal, isn't doing so great industrially or economically either. As for corruption, it exists but I think things are improving. I'd blame it on the old socialist ideas of Nehru, that civil servants should not be paid very much because they should do their jobs out of commitment. There are a huge number of local startups in various high-tech areas, hardly a week passes without a few new multinationals getting a presence here, and nearly all the big names in the computer industry are here already; I don't think problems with corruption are as serious as you make out, and I'm basically optimistic about the future. As for bureaucratic bungles, I've heard horror stories from the US and Europe too... Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 16 23:18:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kris.huntsvilleal.com (kris.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD7837BA4F for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 23:18:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kris.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07637; Wed, 17 May 2000 00:20:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:20:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yowza! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, it looks like *two* CPUs (I know this is not the case, that's just the > best way I can describe how it looks). I had the case open the other day to > copy some stuff from my old drives (old machine's dead, Jim), but it's closed > up right now. The actual heat plate is shaped like so: ______ _____ | | ______ | | | | | | -------------------------------- That's an extreme vertical exaggeration. The two lower parts on each side goto the SRAM, the taller center one goes to the K7. > Maybe my dmesg output will give you some idea? I must admit, I'm a tad curious > myself. :-) Unfortunately, I can't pull that info from here... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 0: 9:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144EE37B789; Wed, 17 May 2000 00:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id QAA24577; Wed, 17 May 2000 16:39:42 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:39:42 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 16 May 2000 at 21:24:40 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > This one's worth a read, Indeed, I think it's one of the best I've seen in a while. > though it's somewhat depressing in that it takes the stance that the > BSDs have irrevocably "lost" to Linux. I didn't see anything irrevocable there. > See > http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 0:36: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1387B37BBDA; Wed, 17 May 2000 00:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12322; Wed, 17 May 2000 01:35:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:38:01 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Tuesday, 16 May 2000 at 21:24:40 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > This one's worth a read, > > Indeed, I think it's one of the best I've seen in a while. > > > though it's somewhat depressing in that it takes the stance that the > > BSDs have irrevocably "lost" to Linux. > > I didn't see anything irrevocable there. In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux isbetter in any way, or even usable for that matter. > > See > > http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html Good reading. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 2:55:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com (rhenium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779B237BB1F for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 02:55:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.167.240] (helo=parish.my.domain) by gadolinium with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12rl8S-0003Oy-00; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:28:00 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00888; Tue, 16 May 2000 18:27:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:27:23 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: Kris Kirby , Alfred Perlstein , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Yowza! Message-ID: <20000516182723.A233@parish> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from conrads@home.com on Mon, May 15, 2000 at 07:39:11PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 07:39:11PM -0500, Conrad Sabatier wrote: > > On 14-May-00 Kris Kirby wrote: > > > > I think you have to see if it has SRAMs or not. Does it have the part > > number on the outside? Something like 100042xx1050DEA or something? DEA is > > a .18 micron chip (the one with L2 in it), everything else (BBA/BCA) is > > the other one (.25 micron, IIRC.) If you find the part numbers on the top > > of the proc, I might be able to tell you more. I can also tell you where > > your processor was physically build (the module) if the serial number ends > > with 1, 2, 3, or 4. :-) > > > > (Oops. I work there.) > > :-) > > Well, it looks like *two* CPUs (I know this is not the case, that's just the > best way I can describe how it looks). I had the case open the other day to > copy some stuff from my old drives (old machine's dead, Jim), but it's closed > up right now. > > Maybe my dmesg output will give you some idea? I must admit, I'm a tad curious > myself. :-) > > [snip] > > FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE #0: Sat May 13 19:05:13 CDT 2000 > conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/MYKERNEL > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz > CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) Processor (998.07-MHz 686-class CPU) > Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x622 Stepping = 2 > Features=0x183f9ff MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR> Just as a slight aside; is there a list anywhere of what all those Feature codes mean? > AMD Features=0xc0400000 > real memory = 268369920 (262080K bytes) > avail memory = 257941504 (251896K bytes) > Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc0302000. > Preloaded userconfig_script "/boot/kernel.conf" at 0xc030209c. > Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled > md0: Malloc disk > npx0: on motherboard > npx0: INT 16 interface > pcib0: on motherboard > pci0: on pcib0 > pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 > pci1: on pcib1 > pci1: at 5.0 irq 10 > > [snip] > > -- > Conrad Sabatier > http://members.home.net/conrads/ > ICQ# 1147270 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 8:29:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.va.home.com (ha1.rdc1.va.home.com [24.2.32.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EC037BC4E for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 08:29:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx ([24.6.244.187]) by mail.rdc1.va.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20000517152930.IMAD22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx>; Wed, 17 May 2000 08:29:30 -0700 Content-Length: 2900 X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000516182723.A233@parish> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:30:13 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Mark Ovens Subject: Re: Yowza! Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kirby , Conrad Sabatier Message-Id: <20000517152930.IMAD22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-May-00 Mark Ovens wrote: > On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 07:39:11PM -0500, Conrad Sabatier wrote: >> FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE #0: Sat May 13 19:05:13 CDT 2000 >> conrads@cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/MYKERNEL >> Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz >> CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) Processor (998.07-MHz 686-class CPU) >> Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x622 Stepping = 2 >> Features=0x183f9ff> MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR> > > Just as a slight aside; is there a list anywhere of what all those > Feature codes mean? Probably buried somewhere in Intel's manuals. FPU - Chip has a Floating-point Co-processor VME - Virtual Mode Extensions - provides a virtual Interrupt Flag for vm86 mode tasks DE - Debug Exception (I think), has to do with the debug registers PSE - Page Size Extension - allows a 4mb page to be used directly from the page directory instead of having a table of 4k pages TSC - Supports the time stamp counter, specifically the RDTSC instruction to read it MSR - This processors has MSR's, and supports accessing them via RDMSR and WRMSR PAE - Page Address Extensions - this allows the processor to address 64 Gig of memory instead of just 4 Gig by squeezing some extra bits out of the page directory entries. When used with PSE, the large pages are 2mb in length instead of 4mb. MCE - Supports the Machine Check Exception. CX8 - Supports the CMPXCHG8B instruction. SEP - hmm, not sure MTRR - Supports Memory Type Range Registes, which allow you to specify the cache policy used on memory ranges. PGE - Page Global Enable. Allows you to specify that pages or page-tables are global pages and are present (and the same) in all of the page directories. Thus when CR3 is changed to point to a new page directory, page tables or pages that are marked global do not have their entries flushed from the TLB. MCA - Machine Check Architecture, not quite sure what it is. CMOV - Conditional MOV instructions. Supports a set of MOV instructions that only perform the MOV if a condition is met. For example, CMOVZ %al, %bl is equivalent to "jnz @@; mov %al, %bl ; @@:" PAT - Not sure. PSE36 - Supports another variation of PSE that supports 36-bit addresssing. However, this provides this support by using only 4mb pages above the 4 gig mark. This is thus quite wasteful, and quite an ugly hack. MMX - Supports MMX. FXSR - No idea. >> AMD Features=0xc0400000 AMIE - No idea. DSP - No idea. 3DNow! - Supports the AMD 3DNow! extensions. SYSCALL - (seen on K6-[23]'s), supports AMD's SYSCALL instruction. HTH -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 11:10:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1180F37BBC7; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17066; Wed, 17 May 2000 12:09:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:09:36 -0600 To: Wes Peters , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list In-Reply-To: <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:38 AM 5/17/2000, Wes Peters wrote: >Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, 16 May 2000 at 21:24:40 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > This one's worth a read, > > > > Indeed, I think it's one of the best I've seen in a while. > > > > > though it's somewhat depressing in that it takes the stance that the > > > BSDs have irrevocably "lost" to Linux. > > > > I didn't see anything irrevocable there. > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in >any way, or even usable for that matter. Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not evangelize, promote, or market. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 11:15:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts3.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3970837BB68; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.nowhere ([206.172.130.88]) by tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20000517181543.DHRL24624.tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost.nowhere>; Wed, 17 May 2000 14:15:43 -0400 Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA09960; Wed, 17 May 2000 14:15:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:15:41 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Maxim Sobolev Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Message-ID: <20000517141541.B9860@mad> References: <3922D3CE.8818CE80@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <3922D3CE.8818CE80@FreeBSD.org>; from Maxim Sobolev on Wed, May 17, 2000 at 08:15:58PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 08:15:58PM +0300, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > > plasma physics. For those who is not confident with Ukrainian degrees, I > probably should explain that 'specialist' degree is something in the middle of > bachelor and master degrees and it is emerged due to currently ongoing > Ukrainian high education system reform. Hmm... We have a 'specialist' degree here, too. minor < major < specialist. Hmm... Another physicist. :) -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 11:26:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53A637BB64 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03844; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:25:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzwaOzh; Wed May 17 11:25:17 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07572; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:25:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005171825.LAA07572@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD To: mellon@pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:25:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> from "Anatoly Vorobey" at May 16, 2000 08:47:31 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Here's Linus quoted inside on why he doesn't do source control: > > "The purely technical side of keeping track of the sources can be > handled by source control packages," says Torvalds, "but at least, in > my opinion, they actually tend to favor the approach of 'Let's put > this in now; if it turns out to be a mistake, we can always revert it > because we have source control.' And of course, nobody ever actually > does clean up anything. Or hardly ever. So I think the real problem in > computer science is to have quality control before it even hits the > distribution, and so far there isn't any other package than the human > brain that can do that job." > > This is so mind-boggingly... misguided?... I just don't know what to > say to this. Well, how about: 1) Source control promotes deleting things that the people in charge of the source control aren't using any more because "we can always recover it from the attic". 2) Source control tends to polarize all developement along a single line of research, unless that source control is extremely capable -- and CVS is not sufficiently capable of resolving this problem, any more than the old patchkit code was. I think he's just rationalizing a (valid) gut feel for the currently freely avaible tools. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 11:36:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276A337BB64 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:36:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA14895; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:36:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAp9aycD; Wed May 17 11:36:07 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07917; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:35:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005171835.LAA07917@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:35:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mellon@pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000516115825.B19647@physics.iisc.ernet.in> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at May 16, 2000 11:58:25 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > He also doesn't like kernel debuggers, on the grounds that they make > you try to cure the symptom rather than the problem. He prefers > that people stare at the code until they see what's wrong with it. Kernel debuggers have two nasty attributes: 1) Linking the debugger into the kernel adds another variable, which can preterb the problem space, and thus result in the bug you are trying to examine being masked. This is a general problem with using the object of your attention as the container for the means by which you focus your attention. For example, VMS tended to mask many bugs, including NULL pointer dereferences, when programs were run in the debugger. 2) Kernel debuggers are like the VMS debugger or the majority of debuggers on non-protected mode OS platforms (well, unless you use vmware, like Julian does, in order to externalized the debugger 8-)). The problem with this approach, compared to using a dump image and doing a post moretm, is that you have to keep one step behind in your head. Then you fail catastrophically, and you have to _repeat_ the debug session to the point where you are once again about to imminently reproduce the problem, in order to fix it. There is much less advantage to staring at code... unless you have someone you think is a complete moron do it over your shoulder. In this special case, they will point to the problem with a rapidity inversly proportional to your opinion of their intelligence. 8-). Better formal methods exist, including "not writing bugs into the code in the first place because you have done the design and have verified that the code actually implements the design". > Well, whatever suits him -- and linux has improved phenomenally in the > last 3 years, ie since its 1.2 days, so he must be doing something > right. One can't say what *would* have happened if he'd done things > differently. If he had adopted a constraining tool like CVS, Linux would have forked on no less than 3 (mathematically) documentable occasions. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 12: 1:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D43237BC82 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 12:01:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08958; Wed, 17 May 2000 12:01:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHSayqr; Wed May 17 12:01:09 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08894; Wed, 17 May 2000 12:01:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005171901.MAA08894@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: assembly vs C To: jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org (J McKitrick) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:01:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000509212637.A73322@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "J McKitrick" at May 09, 2000 09:26:37 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've heard some debates recently, mostly by 'old-school' hackers from the > C64 days who are calling for a return to machine language. They claim that > CPU speed, memory size, and HD space will begin to plateau soon, and that ML > would bring a much needed return to efficiency and clean coding. Actually doing all coding in assembly would be a bad idea. Forcing all programmers to learn assembly so that their compiler is not just a "black box" would undoubtedly increase code quality. I kind of doubt that the VM system could be totally written in C; for a full understanding of software, including FreeBSD, there is also almost an assembly language learning requirement. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 12:40:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [205.129.32.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40B1737B783 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 12:40:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.120]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11051 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 15:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 17 May 2000 15:40:27 -0400 Message-ID: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B130336634A@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David W." To: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Do you *believe* this? Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:40:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I found the following buried treasure whilst trying to figure out why the Motif docs can't be handled by ghostscript. People who write things like this need to be shot. There is no other remedy. The idiot that did this wants to prove he's so goddamn smart... Like we *need* obfuscated postscript? For those who don't grok postscript, the prolog is a series of declarations, which generally form a set of procedures that let the writing program think of the text to be printed at a somewhat higher level. The entire first part of this utter abortion is just to let you say "scl" instead of "scale", etc. There is NO GOOD REASON for it. I consider myself to be competent in PS. Not a wizard, but competent. But I haven't a clue why this does not work under GS, and am not looking forward to the editing session it will take to clarify this. You are now returned to the GPL flamefest, already in progress. %!PS-Adobe-3.0 %%Creator: X Consortium PostScript Print Server %%EndComments %%BeginProlog %%BeginProcSet: XServer_PS_Functions /d{def}bind def/b{bind}bind d/bd{b d}b d/x{exch}bd/xd{x d}bd/dp{dup}bd/t {true}bd/f{false}bd/p{pop}bd/r{roll}bd/c{copy}bd/i{index}bd/rp{repeat}bd /n{newpath}bd/w{setlinewidth}bd/lc{setlinecap}bd/lj{setlinejoin}bd/sml{setmi terlimit}bd /ds{setdash}bd/ie{ifelse}bd/len{length}bd/m{moveto}bd/l{lineto}bd/rl{rlineto }bd /a{arc}bd/an{arcn}bd/st{stroke}bd/fl{fill}bd/ef{eofill}bd/sp{showpage}bd /cp{closepath}bd/clp{clippath}bd/cl{clip}bd/pb{pathbbox}bd/tr{translate}bd /rt{rotate}bd/dv{div}bd/ml{mul}bd/ad{add}bd/ng{neg}bd/scl{scale}bd/sc{setrgb color}bd /g{setgray}bd/gs{gsave}bd/gr{grestore}bd/sv{save}bd/rs{restore}bd/mx{matrix} bd /cm{currentmatrix}bd/sm{setmatrix}bd/ccm{concatmatrix}bd/cc{concat}bd/ff {findfont}bd/mf{makefont}bd/sf{setfont}bd/cft{currentfont}bd/fd{FontDirector y}bd /sh{show}bd/stw{stringwidth}bd/ci{colorimage}bd/ig{image}bd/im{imagemask}bd /cf{currentfile}bd/rh{readhexstring}bd/str{string}bd/al{aload}bd/wh{where}bd /kn{known}bd/stp{stopped}bd/bg{begin}bd/ed{end}bd/fa{forall}bd/pi{putinterva l}bd /mk{mark}bd/ctm{cleartomark}bd/df{definefont}bd/cd{currentdict}bd/db{20 dict dp bg}bd/de{ed}bd/languagelevel wh{p languagelevel}{1}ie 1 eq{/makepattern {p}bd/setpattern{p}bd/setpagedevice{p}bd}if/mp{makepattern}bd/spt{setpattern }bd /spd{setpagedevice}bd /XYr{/currentpagedevice wh {p currentpagedevice dp /HWResolution kn {/HWResolution get al p}{p 300 300}ie}{300 300}ie}bd/Cs{dp 0 eq{0 pHt tr XYr -1 x dv 72 ml x 1 x dv 72 ml x scl}if dp 1 eq{90 rt XYr -1 x dv 72 ml x 1 x dv 72 ml x scl}if dp 2 eq{pWd 0 tr XYr 1 x dv 72 ml x -1 x dv 72 ml x scl}if 3 eq{pHt pWd tr 90 rt XYr 1 x dv 72 ml x -1 x dv 72 ml x scl}if}bd/P{gs 1 w [] 0 ds 2 c m .1 ad x .1 ad x l st gr}bd/R{4 2 r m 1 i 0 rl 0 x rl ng 0 rl cp}bd/Ac{mx_ cm p 6 -2 r tr 4 2 r ng scl 0 0 .5 5 3 r a mx_ sm}bd /An{mx_ cm p 6 -2 r tr 4 2 r ng scl 0 0 .5 5 3 r an mx_ sm}bd/ISO{dp len dict bg{1 i/FID ne{d}{p p}ie}fa /Encoding ISOLatin1Encoding d cd ed df}bd /iN{dp len str cvs dp len x 1 i 3 ad str 2 c c p x p dp 3 -1 r(ISO)pi}bd /Tp{{x dp iN dp fd x kn{x p dp/f_ x d ff}{dp/f_ x d x ff ISO}ie x} {x dp /f_ x d ff x}ie}bd/Tf{Tp[x 0 0 2 i ng 0 0] dp/fm_ x d mf sf}bd/Tfm{Tp 1 -1 tm1_ scl tm2_ ccm dp/fm_ x d mf sf}bd/T{m sh}bd/Tb{gs sc f_ ff sf cft /FontMatrix get 3 get cft/FontBBox get dp 1 get x 3 get 2 i ml 3 1 r ml 0 0 m 4 i stw p 4 i 4 i m fm_ cc 0 2 i rl dp 0 rl 0 2 i ng rl 0 3 i rl ng 0 rl cp fl p p gr T}bd/Im1{6 4 r tr scl t [3 i 0 0 5 i 0 0]{cf str1 rh p} im}bd/Im24{gs 6 4 r tr scl 8 [3 i 0 0 5 i 0 0]{cf str3 rh p} f 3 ci}bd/Im1t{6 4 r tr scl t [3 i 0 0 5 i 0 0]{} im}bd/Im24t{gs 6 4 r tr scl 8 [3 i 0 0 5 i 0 0]{} f 3 ci}bd %%EndProcSet %%EndProlog To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 12:51:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A544C37B773 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 12:51:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12s9oQ-000Kzd-00; Wed, 17 May 2000 21:48:58 +0200 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:48:58 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD Message-ID: <20000517214857.A80602@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000516115825.B19647@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005171835.LAA07917@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005171835.LAA07917@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, May 17, 2000 at 06:35:54PM +0000 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed 2000-05-17 (18:35), Terry Lambert wrote: > > Well, whatever suits him -- and linux has improved phenomenally in the > > last 3 years, ie since its 1.2 days, so he must be doing something > > right. One can't say what *would* have happened if he'd done things > > differently. > > If he had adopted a constraining tool like CVS, Linux would have > forked on no less than 3 (mathematically) documentable occasions. What do you mean by "constraining"? Linus's stated objection to CVS is that it leads to "oh well, put it in, if it breaks, back it out", which seems not to imply constraint. Linus's personal multi-tasking abilities (as impressive as they seem to be) are more likely to constrain development (if that's what you mean) than a CVS tree would. Or do you mean Linus's non-use of CVS has led to no forks because it's impossible to keep up with the changes and what the purposes of them are? I imagine that a CVS tree (of the Linux kernel) would help a lot in keeping concurrent development of an alternate kernel with an increased number of committers (in the alternate kernel). Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 13:35:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA8C37BCC1 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 13:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: from uwi.tt (cuscon4060.tstt.net.tt [209.94.217.74]) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with ESMTP id QAA110474 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 16:34:28 -0400 Message-ID: <39230253.C9890EAF@uwi.tt> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:34:28 -0400 From: "Dale E. Chulhan" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Questions: Java2 port Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a friend who is about to commit virtual suicide ( turn to linux ) because his apps for the Java2 port keep getting internal server errors ... What can I do to keep him with FBSD? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 13:39:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BF57137BDBF for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 13:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 84342 invoked from network); 17 May 2000 20:39:01 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 17 May 2000 20:39:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 16544 invoked by uid 211); 17 May 2000 20:38:59 -0000 Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 02:08:59 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:09:36PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in > >any way, or even usable for that matter. > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > evangelize, promote, or market. Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 15:54:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D645037BBD6; Wed, 17 May 2000 15:54:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id IAA30823; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:25:00 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:25:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000518082500.E30627@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 17 May 2000 at 12:09:36 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:38 AM 5/17/2000, Wes Peters wrote: > >> Greg Lehey wrote: >>> >>> On Tuesday, 16 May 2000 at 21:24:40 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>>> This one's worth a read, >>> >>> Indeed, I think it's one of the best I've seen in a while. >>> >>>> though it's somewhat depressing in that it takes the stance that the >>>> BSDs have irrevocably "lost" to Linux. >>> >>> I didn't see anything irrevocable there. >> >> In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in >> any way, or even usable for that matter. > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > evangelize, promote, or market. Ah. I only read the 5 chapters directly linked together, and I saw no pro-Linux bias there. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 17:28:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D56337BA83; Wed, 17 May 2000 17:28:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21398; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:28:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000517182639.00bd1be0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:28:26 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon In-Reply-To: <20000518082500.E30627@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:55 PM 5/17/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > evangelize, promote, or market. > >Ah. I only read the 5 chapters directly linked together, and I saw no >pro-Linux bias there. There is a very strong pro-Linux bias in his writings. He states in some places, and implies in others, that the BSDs are doomed to relative obscurity compared to Linux. What's more, he believes Stallman's propaganda instead of looking beyond it and recognizing RMS's true intentions. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 18: 1:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA8937BAAC; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA31819; Thu, 18 May 2000 10:31:30 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:31:30 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000518103130.D31123@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518082500.E30627@freebie.lemis.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517182639.00bd1be0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000517182639.00bd1be0@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 17 May 2000 at 18:28:26 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:55 PM 5/17/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has >>> a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who >>> could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not >>> evangelize, promote, or market. >> >> Ah. I only read the 5 chapters directly linked together, and I saw no >> pro-Linux bias there. > > There is a very strong pro-Linux bias in his writings. He states in some > places, and implies in others, that the BSDs are doomed to relative > obscurity compared to Linux. What's more, he believes Stallman's > propaganda instead of looking beyond it and recognizing RMS's true > intentions. What can I say? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 21: 8: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8ECF37B703 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 21:07:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23478; Wed, 17 May 2000 22:07:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000517220148.00cd6cb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:07:36 -0600 To: "Gray, David W." , "'FreeBSD Chat List'" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Do you *believe* this? In-Reply-To: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B130336634A@nmrusdunsx1.niels enmedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:40 PM 5/17/2000, Gray, David W. wrote: >For those who don't grok postscript, the prolog is a series of declarations, >which generally form a set of procedures that let the writing program think >of the text to be printed at a somewhat higher level. The entire first part >of this utter abortion is just to let you say "scl" instead of "scale", etc. >There is NO GOOD REASON for it. Some PostScript hackers do this because they want the code to be more compact. This actually DOES matter with large documents since many printers have limited buffer space and/or slow interfaces. Postscript tends to get verbose when a program exercises fine-grained control over kerning, etc., so this is a legitimate reason to declare abbreviated names. Others abbreviate it because they actually want it to be less readable -- especially if it is automatically generated and they want to obscure what their software does to generate it. This is a poor excuse, since it only protects against the laziest reverse engineering. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 17 22:38:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D1C37BAB5; Wed, 17 May 2000 22:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14937; Wed, 17 May 2000 23:36:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <392381F4.B39DE5CB@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:39:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in > > >any way, or even usable for that matter. > > > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > evangelize, promote, or market. > > Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and > he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent > "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, > more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. Uh, yeah. I'd say that pretty much sums it up. The Linuxers seem to think of that as an advantage, where we think of it as being pure marketing bull- shit, the same thing they accuse Microsoft of. It's a funny philosophy; you suck if you're better at something than us (code for BSD, marketing for Microsoft) and yet conversely you suck if you're worse at something than us (code for Microsoft, marketing for BSD). I guess the philosophy is just that you suck if you're not Linux, and reasons and justifications don't matter. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 0: 3: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blizzard.sabbo.net (blizzard.sabbo.net [193.193.218.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F35337BCF2 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 00:03:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from SoboMax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from vega.vega.com (vic.sabbo.net [193.193.218.106]) by blizzard.sabbo.net (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06977; Thu, 18 May 2000 10:02:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from FreeBSD.org (big_brother.vega.com [192.168.1.1]) by vega.vega.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17236; Thu, 18 May 2000 10:02:37 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from SoboMax@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <39239583.4DD3BE3A@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:02:27 +0300 From: Maxim Sobolev Organization: Vega International Capital X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: uk,ru,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ruslan Ermilov , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... References: <3922D3CE.8818CE80@FreeBSD.org> <20000518095040.A38264@sunbay.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 08:15:58PM +0300, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Let me introduce myself. > > > And there are now three of us living in Ukraine. > Welcome aboard, Maxim! Yeah, but as always there is still huge room for improvement as currently in Ukraine only 0.00000006 FreeBSD committers per capita. Very low penetration though ;). -Maxim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 1: 9: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D61037B51C; Thu, 18 May 2000 01:08:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id RAA37527; Thu, 18 May 2000 17:39:42 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:39:42 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Maxim Sobolev Cc: Ruslan Ermilov , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Message-ID: <20000518173941.A31123@freebie.lemis.com> References: <3922D3CE.8818CE80@FreeBSD.org> <20000518095040.A38264@sunbay.com> <39239583.4DD3BE3A@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <39239583.4DD3BE3A@FreeBSD.org> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 18 May 2000 at 10:02:27 +0300, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > >> On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 08:15:58PM +0300, Maxim Sobolev wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Let me introduce myself. >>> >> And there are now three of us living in Ukraine. >> Welcome aboard, Maxim! > > Yeah, but as always there is still huge room for improvement as currently in > Ukraine only 0.00000006 FreeBSD committers per capita. Very low penetration > though ;). Ah, but how far apart do you live? There's more of a chance to get a high position in the number of committers in a single city. Currently that distinction goes to Boulder Colorado (4). At various times we had 3 here in Adelaide SA, but they keep leaving to go to hell. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 1:27:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CC637BDA1 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 01:27:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: by techunix.technion.ac.il (Postfix, from userid 14309) id 856258639; Thu, 18 May 2000 11:27:15 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <20000518112715.53071@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:27:15 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: statistics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today's quote from the Department of Meaningless Statistics: In the compiled LINT FreeBSD kernel, there are: - 1014 source C files; - they include 49882 header files (counting with repetitions of course); - the highest number of C types defined in one source file (including ones defined in header files it includes) is 1128; the record goes to sys/i386/linux/linux_misc.c ; - the highest number of C types defined in one header file is 323; the record goes to . In a typical compiled kernel which is being used, there are: - 361 source C files; - they include 15007 header files; - the highest number of C types in one source file is 1097, and the record goes to sys/i386/i386/machdep.c - the highest number of C types defined in one header file is 324, in . Yours, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 2: 6:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3CB5A37B602 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 02:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 91160 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 09:05:39 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 May 2000 09:05:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 5312 invoked by uid 211); 18 May 2000 09:05:37 -0000 Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:35:36 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000518143536.A5288@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Wes Peters , Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <392381F4.B39DE5CB@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <392381F4.B39DE5CB@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Wed, May 17, 2000 at 11:39:00PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters said on May 17, 2000 at 23:39:00: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in > > > >any way, or even usable for that matter. > > > > > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > > evangelize, promote, or market. > > > > Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and > > he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent > > "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, > > more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. > > Uh, yeah. I'd say that pretty much sums it up. The Linuxers seem to think > of that as an advantage, where we think of it as being pure marketing bull- > shit, the same thing they accuse Microsoft of. It's a funny philosophy; > you suck if you're better at something than us (code for BSD, marketing > for Microsoft) and yet conversely you suck if you're worse at something > than us (code for Microsoft, marketing for BSD). I guess the philosophy > is just that you suck if you're not Linux, and reasons and justifications > don't matter. Well, I don't think that article justifies that sort of outburst (it nowhere says or implies that BSD sucks, quite the contrary in fact) and I see a lot of BSD coverage on the linux websites these days, nearly all of it positive. Besides your best chance of converting linux users is to say "here's another free OS, with various similarities and differences from linux, and it has these cool features, so you may want to try it out" -- which is pretty much what Leonard's article does. You can't convert anyone by saying "ooh, linux is so crummy, how can Mr Leonard even think of saying something nice about it, he's obviously heavily biased and a Stallman stooge..." R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 6:30:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [205.129.32.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7EF37BE29 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 06:30:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.120]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28643; Thu, 18 May 2000 09:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 18 May 2000 09:29:44 -0400 Message-ID: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B130336634B@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David W." To: "'Brett Glass'" , "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: RE: Do you *believe* this? Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:29:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Afraid I'll have to go with the latter -- look how short the header is (thats the *whole* thing). You really aren't saving all that much, actually you are trading off dynamic store (the page text, per page) for persistant VM (at least, persistant for that document.) If you've ever seen the monstrosity that Apple has been known to use... (Actually, I had that hacked to the point where it would run on a postscript emulator on the Amiga -- but thats another tale.) -----Original Message----- From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org] Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 12:08 AM To: Gray, David W.; 'FreeBSD Chat List' Subject: Re: Do you *believe* this? At 01:40 PM 5/17/2000, Gray, David W. wrote: >For those who don't grok postscript, the prolog is a series of declarations, >which generally form a set of procedures that let the writing program think >of the text to be printed at a somewhat higher level. The entire first part >of this utter abortion is just to let you say "scl" instead of "scale", etc. >There is NO GOOD REASON for it. Some PostScript hackers do this because they want the code to be more compact. This actually DOES matter with large documents since many printers have limited buffer space and/or slow interfaces. Postscript tends to get verbose when a program exercises fine-grained control over kerning, etc., so this is a legitimate reason to declare abbreviated names. Others abbreviate it because they actually want it to be less readable -- especially if it is automatically generated and they want to obscure what their software does to generate it. This is a poor excuse, since it only protects against the laziest reverse engineering. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 7:28:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from garlic.acadiau.ca (garlic.acadiau.ca [131.162.138.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A379337B924 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 07:28:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@acadiau.ca) Received: from atelier.acadiau.ca (atelier.acadiau.ca [131.162.138.223]) by garlic.acadiau.ca (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e4IET7r92074 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 11:29:07 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:28:14 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: OpenBSD to merge with RedHat (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Its old, but I never saw it go around the lists and thought it was cute :) Marc G. Fournier marc.fournier@acadiau.ca Senior Systems Administrator Acadia University "These are my opinions, which are not necessarily shared by my employer" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 11:57:59 PST From: Jean Chouanard To: BUGTRAQ@SECURITYFOCUS.COM Subject: OpenBSD to merge with RedHat (fwd) ------- Forwarded Message From: "Buffer the IP Slayer" To: announce@openbsd.org Subject: OpenBSD to merge with RedHat Sender: owner-announce@openbsd.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: announce@openbsd.org Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:56:27 PST April 1, 19100 Durham, NC -- MSNBC News Services "OpenBSD to merge with RedHat" Linux vendor Red Hat Inc. (Nasdaq: RHAT) announced today it will acquire secure OS maker OpenBSD in a deal involving Red Hat shares. OpenBSD, widely regarded as the world's most secure operating system, will be merged with Red Hat Linux, the market leader in Linux distributions. The new company will be called Rad Hat Labs. Said Red Hat CEO Robert Young "The Linux mascot is a penguin and OpenBSD's is a blowfish. Both of these are marine animals so it really was a natural pairing. In the same way that the ocean covers over 75% of the surface of the earth, we hope to gain at least 75% of the operating system marketplace. Also, because of the strength of the US dollar in comparison to the Canadian dollar we were able to pick them up for a song." Said de Raadt of the purchase "I tried to get them to pay me in Krugerrands but had to settle for stock". The exact purchase price has not been disclosed. Red Hat shares closed Friday at 42-3/8. According to industry analyst Mudge of L0pht @Stake the corporate image was a negotiating stumbling block. "I tried to convince them to call it GrayHat OpenBSD but that didn't fly." Young told us "That's just not the image we're going for. We're thinking more along the lines of the OpenBSD blowfish wearing a backwards red baseball cap to give it a real rebel edge." There will be a few changes at Red Hat as well. Reportedly, `Rhad Labs' will be changing its name to `deRaadt Labs' in honor of OpenBSD's founder. And speaking of the Labs, Alan Cox had the following to say "I've admired the OpenBSD security model for some time now and look forward to working with Theo." The new merged operating system will also be released under the Rad Hat Community Source License. Young was quick to point that the new 15 page source license still means business as usual for developers and users. "Whatever you could do with the source code before, you can still do under the new license", said Young. "It's just that corporate buyers didn't take us seriously with the GPL or the BSD licenses. Now that they have to spend serious cash on lawyers to interpret this thing for them, they view us as a real software vendor." ------- End of Forwarded Message :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 8: 0:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spirit.jaded.net (shortbus.jaded.net [216.94.132.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D902D37B823; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:00:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@spirit.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00725; Thu, 18 May 2000 10:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:59:47 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: Greg Lehey Cc: Maxim Sobolev , Ruslan Ermilov , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Message-ID: <20000518105947.C610@spirit.jaded.net> References: <3922D3CE.8818CE80@FreeBSD.org> <20000518095040.A38264@sunbay.com> <39239583.4DD3BE3A@FreeBSD.org> <20000518173941.A31123@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000518173941.A31123@freebie.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Thu, May 18, 2000 at 05:39:42PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > Yeah, but as always there is still huge room for improvement as currently in | > Ukraine only 0.00000006 FreeBSD committers per capita. Very low penetration | > though ;). | | Ah, but how far apart do you live? There's more of a chance to get a | high position in the number of committers in a single city. Currently | that distinction goes to Boulder Colorado (4). At various times we | had 3 here in Adelaide SA, but they keep leaving to go to hell. | | Greg The small town of Oakville, Ontario (only around ~100k people) has two committers. That's a committer per capita ratio of about 0.00002. -- Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org) "Don't get even -- get odd!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 8:16:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.va.home.com (ha1.rdc1.va.home.com [24.2.32.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA7D537B654; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:16:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx ([24.6.244.187]) by mail.rdc1.va.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20000518151609.SQYR22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx>; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:16:09 -0700 Content-Length: 990 X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000518105947.C610@spirit.jaded.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:16:53 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Dan Moschuk Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Ruslan Ermilov , Maxim Sobolev , Greg Lehey Message-Id: <20000518151609.SQYR22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-May-00 Dan Moschuk wrote: > >| > Yeah, but as always there is still huge room for improvement as currently in >| > Ukraine only 0.00000006 FreeBSD committers per capita. Very low penetration >| > though ;). >| >| Ah, but how far apart do you live? There's more of a chance to get a >| high position in the number of committers in a single city. Currently >| that distinction goes to Boulder Colorado (4). At various times we >| had 3 here in Adelaide SA, but they keep leaving to go to hell. >| >| Greg > > The small town of Oakville, Ontario (only around ~100k people) has two > committers. That's a committer per capita ratio of about 0.00002. Concord, CA should be up to 6 now? (jkh, msmith, jim, unfurl, obrien, cshumway) and should be up to 8 (wpaul, jhb) in another month or so. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 8:39:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117AC37BC24; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16075; Thu, 18 May 2000 09:35:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39240E3C.2BB55534@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:37:32 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <392381F4.B39DE5CB@softweyr.com> <20000518143536.A5288@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Wes Peters said on May 17, 2000 at 23:39:00: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > > > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in > > > > >any way, or even usable for that matter. > > > > > > > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > > > evangelize, promote, or market. > > > > > > Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and > > > he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent > > > "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, > > > more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. > > > > Uh, yeah. I'd say that pretty much sums it up. The Linuxers seem to think > > of that as an advantage, where we think of it as being pure marketing bull- > > shit, the same thing they accuse Microsoft of. It's a funny philosophy; > > you suck if you're better at something than us (code for BSD, marketing > > for Microsoft) and yet conversely you suck if you're worse at something > > than us (code for Microsoft, marketing for BSD). I guess the philosophy > > is just that you suck if you're not Linux, and reasons and justifications > > don't matter. > > Well, I don't think that article justifies that sort of outburst (it > nowhere says or implies that BSD sucks, quite the contrary in fact) > and I see a lot of BSD coverage on the linux websites these days, > nearly all of it positive. No, the article was much better written than that. I'm speaking more of the average drooling Slashdot anonymous loser. > Besides your best chance of converting > linux users is to say "here's another free OS, with various > similarities and differences from linux, and it has these cool > features, so you may want to try it out" -- which is pretty much what > Leonard's article does. You can't convert anyone by saying "ooh, > linux is so crummy, how can Mr Leonard even think of saying something > nice about it, he's obviously heavily biased and a Stallman stooge..." I found the chapter on Salon delightful, and plan to buy the book when it is published. It might do more than anything so far to increase the (small) flood of Linux users moving to BSD. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 9:44:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spirit.jaded.net (shortbus.jaded.net [216.94.132.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67F437BB23; Thu, 18 May 2000 09:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@spirit.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02132; Thu, 18 May 2000 12:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:44:35 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Message-ID: <20000518124435.D1850@spirit.jaded.net> References: <20000518105947.C610@spirit.jaded.net> <20000518151609.SQYR22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000518151609.SQYR22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, May 18, 2000 at 11:16:53AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > The small town of Oakville, Ontario (only around ~100k people) has two | > committers. That's a committer per capita ratio of about 0.00002. | | Concord, CA should be up to 6 now? (jkh, msmith, jim, unfurl, obrien, | cshumway) and should be up to 8 (wpaul, jhb) in another month or so. Walnut Creek people shouldn't count. :-) -- Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org) "Don't get even -- get odd!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 11: 9:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71FDA37B65E for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 11:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: by super-g.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A7485B416; Thu, 18 May 2000 14:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B13BB401; Thu, 18 May 2000 14:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:09:34 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: David Miller Cc: Mike Nowlin , Mark Ovens , adoyle@viewsnet.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rpm and WordPerfect Office 2000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 May 2000, David Miller wrote: > On Thu, 18 May 2000, Mike Nowlin wrote: > > > > Of course, I sure like my FreeBSD's box (which takes a lot bigger > > > > beating than that secretarial win98 machine)'s uptime: > > > > > > > > 3:46AM up 101 days, 21:45, 15 users, load averages: 1.22, 1.18, 1.25 > If we're going to start a senseless game of "mines longer than yours"... Of course... we just have to move it to -chat Here's a box that I'll call FreeBSD, it's an Ipsilon router (now Nokia). It's essentially FreeBSD 2.1.7 with mods to the net stuff similar to ALTQ plus OSPF and other routing goodies - with a nice web frontend for configuring it all: ipsilon# uptime 7:22AM up 747 days, 21:27, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 ipsilon# uname -a IPSO ipsilon.inch.com 2.1 IPSO 2.1 #1: Thu Jan 8 15:00:54 PST 1998 jre@tower.ipsilon.com:/net/servo/home/jre/2.1/src/sys/compile/IPSROUTER I'm damn impressed with the stability we're at now. Even my workstation running X, lots of Netscape windows, flash plugin, you name it: root@ass[/usr/ports/net/mrtg]# uptime 2:08PM up 113 days, 22:23, 1 user, load averages: 1.07, 1.03, 1.01 root@ass[/usr/ports/net/mrtg]# uname -a FreeBSD ass.inch.com 3.4-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE #0: Tue Jan 25 13:53:27 EST 2000 spork@ass.inch.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/SUPER-2 And my reboot was to add a drive and go up to 3.4-RELEASE. What a goddamned fantastic OS this is. Kudos to all! Charles > search.sparks.net was a 2.2.7 system which was up for 469 days before a > disk died due to overheating caused by the PS fan seizing up. If it were > a ball bearing fan I'd be pushing 600 days on it now. > > Cheers > > --- David > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 11:29:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.va.home.com (ha1.rdc1.va.home.com [24.2.32.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E74B37B902; Thu, 18 May 2000 11:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx ([24.6.244.187]) by mail.rdc1.va.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20000518182945.TZEJ22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx>; Thu, 18 May 2000 11:29:45 -0700 Content-Length: 601 X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000518124435.D1850@spirit.jaded.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:30:30 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Dan Moschuk Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <20000518182945.TZEJ22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-May-00 Dan Moschuk wrote: > >| > The small town of Oakville, Ontario (only around ~100k people) has two >| > committers. That's a committer per capita ratio of about 0.00002. >| >| Concord, CA should be up to 6 now? (jkh, msmith, jim, unfurl, obrien, >| cshumway) and should be up to 8 (wpaul, jhb) in another month or so. > > Walnut Creek people shouldn't count. :-) Why not? We're people too. :-P -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 11:37:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DD137B5C6 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 11:37:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA26228 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 20:37:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.1.20000518203632.009d3be0@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:38:30 +0200 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Fwd: Is this a joke? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! This is going around on some lists, maybe someone could comment on this, if there is a remote possibility about that? Regards Olaf Hoyer >To: altcpu-list@topica.com >From: "Michael J. Miller Jr." >Subject: Is this a joke? >Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:30:44 -0700 >Reply-To: altcpu-list@topica.com >X-Topica-Loop: 700002820 > >Anyone here know anything about this? Seems a bit far-fetched, and >VERY scary if true. > >>From: Fred Cohen >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Mailing-List: list iwar@egroups.com; contact iwar-owner@egroups.com >>Delivered-To: mailing list iwar@egroups.com >>Precedence: bulk >>List-Unsubscribe: >>Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:53:44 -0700 (PDT) >>Reply-To: iwar@egroups.com >>Subject: [iwar] News >>Status: RO >> >>Here's something I heard today - from a very reliable source: >> >>In order to allow application programs to access the display memory >>without operating system intervention, an undocumented hardware >>instruction on Pentium class Intel processors and possibly other >>'compatable' processor architectures has been included to grant >>user-level processes direct access to the real memory of the central >>processor. This means that a user process can read directly from or >>write directly to system memory. the net effect is that any user who >>can run a program of their devising on one of these computers is >>guaranteed to be able to take over the system and do whatever they wish >>- regardless of the operating system - and regardless of any add-on >>precautions at the software level. > -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 11:39: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4223F37B5C6; Thu, 18 May 2000 11:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9D38D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.157.56.216]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07312; Thu, 18 May 2000 20:38:49 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CF9AC2C; Thu, 18 May 2000 20:39:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA12629; Thu, 18 May 2000 20:39:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:39:02 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: John Baldwin Cc: Dan Moschuk , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Message-ID: <20000518203902.A12616@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: John Baldwin , Dan Moschuk , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000518124435.D1850@spirit.jaded.net> <20000518182945.TZEJ22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000518182945.TZEJ22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, May 18, 2000 at 02:30:30PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake John Baldwin (jhb@FreeBSD.ORG): > >| Concord, CA should be up to 6 now? (jkh, msmith, jim, unfurl, obrien, > >| cshumway) and should be up to 8 (wpaul, jhb) in another month or so. > > Walnut Creek people shouldn't count. :-) > Why not? We're people too. :-P Well, that's what WC is telling you ;-) Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 12:32:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.va.home.com (ha1.rdc1.va.home.com [24.2.32.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E770237B7C2 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 12:32:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx ([24.6.244.187]) by mail.rdc1.va.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20000518193245.ULAE22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx>; Thu, 18 May 2000 12:32:45 -0700 Content-Length: 2635 X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000518203632.009d3be0@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:33:30 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Olaf Hoyer Subject: RE: Fwd: Is this a joke? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <20000518193245.ULAE22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-May-00 Olaf Hoyer wrote: > Hi! > > This is going around on some lists, maybe someone could comment on this, if > there is a remote possibility about that? This looks rather rediculous, actually. > Regards > Olaf Hoyer > >>>From: Fred Cohen >>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>>Mailing-List: list iwar@egroups.com; contact iwar-owner@egroups.com >>>Delivered-To: mailing list iwar@egroups.com >>>Precedence: bulk >>>List-Unsubscribe: >>>Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:53:44 -0700 (PDT) >>>Reply-To: iwar@egroups.com >>>Subject: [iwar] News >>>Status: RO >>> >>>Here's something I heard today - from a very reliable source: >>> >>>In order to allow application programs to access the display memory >>>without operating system intervention, an undocumented hardware >>>instruction on Pentium class Intel processors and possibly other >>>'compatable' processor architectures has been included to grant >>>user-level processes direct access to the real memory of the central >>>processor. This means that a user process can read directly from or >>>write directly to system memory. the net effect is that any user who >>>can run a program of their devising on one of these computers is >>>guaranteed to be able to take over the system and do whatever they wish >>>- regardless of the operating system - and regardless of any add-on >>>precautions at the software level. Well, for one thing, apart from registers, there is no 'real memory of the system processor'. Every process reads and writes to memory. Probably what they are trying to refer to is that this mysterious instruction allows you to bypass the paging and protection mechanisms and specify a direct physical address. This really wouldn't do you much good unless you had initimate knowledge of the memory organization of the underlying operating system. However, the closest thing to this mystery instruction that I can think of is the 'umov' instruction, which is used in coordination with ICE's to allow you to access the main "user" memory of the system when you are running in the context of the ICE (which has its own memory and memory address space). Also, the poor grammar and general vagueness of this message leave me very suspicious. I wouldn't put much stock in this claim, personally. > Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de > FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 13:33:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8011737B83C for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09020; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:32:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA6jayrr; Thu May 18 13:32:20 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21198; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:32:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005182032.NAA21198@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD To: nbm@mithrandr.moria.org (Neil Blakey-Milner) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:32:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), mellon@pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000517214857.A80602@mithrandr.moria.org> from "Neil Blakey-Milner" at May 17, 2000 09:48:58 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Well, whatever suits him -- and linux has improved phenomenally in the > > > last 3 years, ie since its 1.2 days, so he must be doing something > > > right. One can't say what *would* have happened if he'd done things > > > differently. > > > > If he had adopted a constraining tool like CVS, Linux would have > > forked on no less than 3 (mathematically) documentable occasions. > > What do you mean by "constraining"? It constrains you to a single line of developement. For example, if FreeBSD wanted to work on a PPC port, there is a single line of developement called "current". The work could not occur in the "current" source tree, since it would be unacceptable to those who hold the keys, who are people not using PPCs, by definition. Like the Alpha port, it would have to occur in a vacuum, when the current tree was relatively quiescent, and be followed by the risk of non-apporval, and the requirement of a heroic integration effort (such as we saw on the part of the Alpha team). Really, you want "The FreeBSD" to be an agregation of lines of developements. This would permit, for example, multiple competing implementations of some subsystem to be worked on under source code control, without them conflicting. CVS as it currently stands does not permit this. One way to address this might be to allow importation via CVSup to occur onto a vendor branch in the workers local repository; then a hierarchical arrangement of CVSup clients and servers could be made to support multiple lines of develeopement. See http://www.bitkeeper.com/ for more details on multiple lines of developement (which they call "LODs"). Perforce also supports this concept, as do the CASE tools source code control components I have used on HPUX and VMS systems. Bottom line: adequate tools which don't themselves impose any irrational constrainsts still cost real money. > Linus's stated objection to CVS is that it leads to "oh well, > put it in, if it breaks, back it out", which seems not to > imply constraint. This is a rationalization. There are good reasons to avoid CVS (as opposed to avoiding all source code control systems), but this rationalization is not one of them. Rationalizing this way is a sign of intellectual laziness. Given the venue for the article, that's potentially excusable (though I personally would not have answered off the cuff, as I would consider it duplicitous). > Linus's personal multi-tasking abilities (as impressive as > they seem to be) are more likely to constrain development (if > that's what you mean) than a CVS tree would. > > Or do you mean Linus's non-use of CVS has led to no forks > because it's impossible to keep up with the changes and what > the purposes of them are? No. Linux has nearly forked 3 times that I can document, and has been builting towards such an event at least 5 additional times. It's amazing to me that one could be a member of a society, yet not study the properties of that society with all of the tools at ones disposal. Even as someone who has only contributed to Linux under various pseudonyms or by forwarding code through other people, and thus a relative outsider, I definitely am aware of "the Alan Cox tree" and "the GGI incident" (as examples). > I imagine that a CVS tree (of the Linux kernel) would help a lot > in keeping concurrent development of an alternate kernel with an > increased number of committers (in the alternate kernel). I imagine it would fracture the Linux community into at least 5, perhaps more, pieces. The Linux community, as the Internet's largest society/organism to date (and thus worthy of scholarly study for that reason alone, if no other) has outgrown the point at which CVS, as it currently exists, would constrain its growth. If Linus were to shove CVS down people's throats, the community would immediately fracture based on the ability to track the pieces they wanted from "The One True Linux", and throw out what they considered extraneous crap. Right now, everyone gets the same thing, and opinions about what is crap or isn't really don't matter one way or another toward fracturing th community. It is only when a significant piece of work, such as GGI, remains unacknowledge and/or unintegrated, that tensions rise. In the three most important incidents I have documented, Linus has caved in on every one of them, rather than face the spectre of schism. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 13:37: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp09.phx.gblx.net (smtp09.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2068537B92E; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp09.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA64614; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:36:46 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp09.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdPhySqa; Thu May 18 13:36:41 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21308; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:36:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005182036.NAA21308@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:36:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD advocacy list) In-Reply-To: <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at May 18, 2000 02:08:59 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > evangelize, promote, or market. > > Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and > he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent > "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, > more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. His history is not 100% correct, and it's going to potentially hurt BSD in the long run to have lots of people believing it because it's now "common knowledge". The Linus commentary is really unfair to Linus (c.v. the discussion about source code control, also in this thread). Unfortunately, correcting this could be even more injurious to BSD, so I'm going to let sleeping dogs lie... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 13:40:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BDD337B992 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA18994; Thu, 18 May 2000 22:39:28 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 22:39:28 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Terry Lambert Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Rahul Siddharthan , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD In-Reply-To: <200005182032.NAA21198@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 May 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Well, whatever suits him -- and linux has improved phenomenally in the > > > > last 3 years, ie since its 1.2 days, so he must be doing something > > > > right. One can't say what *would* have happened if he'd done things > > > > differently. > > > > > > If he had adopted a constraining tool like CVS, Linux would have > > > forked on no less than 3 (mathematically) documentable occasions. > > > > What do you mean by "constraining"? > > It constrains you to a single line of developement. For example, > if FreeBSD wanted to work on a PPC port, there is a single line of > developement called "current". The work could not occur in the > "current" source tree, since it would be unacceptable to those > who hold the keys, who are people not using PPCs, by definition. > Like the Alpha port, it would have to occur in a vacuum, when the > current tree was relatively quiescent, and be followed by the risk > of non-apporval, and the requirement of a heroic integration > effort (such as we saw on the part of the Alpha team). > Actually, I think there have through time been some special branches like say for CAM? > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 14: 4:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.43.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A2937B798 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 14:04:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mira1.cisco.com (mira1.cisco.com [171.71.212.196]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14549 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 14:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (sjck-dial-gw5-10.cisco.com [10.19.238.11]) by mira1.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AAG00873; Thu, 18 May 2000 14:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39245C7C.920D61D2@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:11:24 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD References: <200005182032.NAA21198@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > Well, whatever suits him -- and linux has improved phenomenally in the > > > > last 3 years, ie since its 1.2 days, so he must be doing something > > > > right. One can't say what *would* have happened if he'd done things > > > > differently. > > > > > > If he had adopted a constraining tool like CVS, Linux would have > > > forked on no less than 3 (mathematically) documentable occasions. > > > > What do you mean by "constraining"? > > It constrains you to a single line of developement. For example, > if FreeBSD wanted to work on a PPC port, there is a single line of > developement called "current". The work could not occur in the > "current" source tree, since it would be unacceptable to those > who hold the keys, who are people not using PPCs, by definition. > Like the Alpha port, it would have to occur in a vacuum, when the > current tree was relatively quiescent, and be followed by the risk > of non-apporval, and the requirement of a heroic integration > effort (such as we saw on the part of the Alpha team). There was a port which attempted to address this deficiency of CVS (ports/devel/cvslines) but alas the distfile seems to have disappeared from the net. The port may be found in our CVS Attic ;-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 14:20:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 04C0537B513 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 14:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 97786 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 21:19:59 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 May 2000 21:19:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 27616 invoked by uid 211); 18 May 2000 21:19:57 -0000 Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 02:49:57 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD Message-ID: <20000519024957.B27571@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000517214857.A80602@mithrandr.moria.org> <200005182032.NAA21198@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200005182032.NAA21198@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, May 18, 2000 at 08:32:17PM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No. Linux has nearly forked 3 times that I can document, and > has been builting towards such an event at least 5 additional > times. > > It's amazing to me that one could be a member of a society, yet > not study the properties of that society with all of the tools > at ones disposal. Even as someone who has only contributed to > Linux under various pseudonyms or by forwarding code through > other people, and thus a relative outsider, I definitely am > aware of "the Alan Cox tree" and "the GGI incident" (as examples). I'm somewhat out of my depths here. But let me try to understand what you're saying. Well, it's well known that Alan Cox (and several others working on various subsystems) maintain their own trees, and they pass their patches upwards through the hierarchy as and when they feel the patches are sufficiently well tested, and Linus is the last to receive the patches. And apart from the "stable" releases there are dozens of prepatch kernels and -ac and -aa and other kernels, even within the 2.2.x "stable" series, which fall somewhere between "stable" and "development". I've used some of these and they work -- the uptime of the machine is typically several weeks, ie until I feel like compiling a new kernel. An Alan Cox prepatch typically consists from patches from several developers (himself included) all put together and tested for a while on his tree. Those patches in turn have already been tested on their developers' trees. So all these prepatch kernel versions exist simultaneously with the "stable" release but contain features not found in the stable version, but they are reasonably safe that an ordinary user doesn't risk too much by using them on his machine. (Unlike the 2.3.x kernel series.) I don't think such a thing is possible in FreeBSD -- there's only -stable and -current -- or if other patches do exist, it's probably not so easy for an ordinary user to track them. To that extent maybe the linux system has its advantages, at least to people who like the linux way of life. Also, distributions like Red Hat/Caldera/Mandrake don't use a pristine "stable kernel" but include several patches relating to stuff like RAID, which Linus hasn't yet included in his releases. Can you say then that the linux kernel has already forked? Depends on the definition of forking -- the different forms of the kernel aren't diverging, they're just different threads that keep crisscrossing... > > I imagine that a CVS tree (of the Linux kernel) would help a lot > > in keeping concurrent development of an alternate kernel with an > > increased number of committers (in the alternate kernel). > > I imagine it would fracture the Linux community into at least 5, > perhaps more, pieces. The Linux community, as the Internet's > largest society/organism to date (and thus worthy of scholarly > study for that reason alone, if no other) has outgrown the point > at which CVS, as it currently exists, would constrain its growth. You mean 5 or more people would start maintaining their own CVS trees, and as a result patches on one tree would no longer work on the other trees and it would all start moving apart? Probably true. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 16:23:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 561CB37BBB0 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 16:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01523; Thu, 18 May 2000 16:23:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAtVai8c; Thu May 18 16:23:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10745; Thu, 18 May 2000 16:23:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005182323.QAA10745@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:23:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), nbm@mithrandr.moria.org (Neil Blakey-Milner), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), mellon@pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at May 18, 2000 10:39:28 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > If he had adopted a constraining tool like CVS, Linux would have > > > > forked on no less than 3 (mathematically) documentable occasions. > > > > > > What do you mean by "constraining"? > > > > It constrains you to a single line of developement. For example, > > if FreeBSD wanted to work on a PPC port, there is a single line of > > developement called "current". The work could not occur in the > > "current" source tree, since it would be unacceptable to those > > who hold the keys, who are people not using PPCs, by definition. > > Like the Alpha port, it would have to occur in a vacuum, when the > > current tree was relatively quiescent, and be followed by the risk > > of non-apporval, and the requirement of a heroic integration > > effort (such as we saw on the part of the Alpha team). > > > > Actually, I think there have through time been some special branches > like say for CAM? Yes. What system that was competing with CAM was being developed at the same time in the context of its own branch, though? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 16:39: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595D737BBB0 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 16:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA43604 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 19 May 2000 09:09:22 +0930 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id IAA41912 for crazies-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 2000 08:08:35 +0930 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: freebie.lemis.com: majordom set sender to owner-crazies@lemis.com using -f Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA41890 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 08:08:23 +0930 (CST) Received: by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix, from userid 12345) id 9FF073AA9; Thu, 18 May 2000 15:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exccup-gh01.mis.tandem.com (exccup-gh01.mis.tandem.com [130.252.226.241]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94A63B78 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 15:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exccup-gh01.mis.tandem.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 18 May 2000 12:09:44 -0700 Message-ID: <2BAEE918EF6CD1118FA800805F57F12E06EFB455@excaus-aus01.txn.cpqcorp.net> From: "Stearns, Peggy" To: "Crazy People (E-mail)" Subject: FW: New NT logo! Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:09:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BFC0FC.9ED7D620" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BFC0FC.9ED7D620 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFC0FC.9ED7D620" ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC0FC.9ED7D620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" How do we replace the NT splash with the attached? ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC0FC.9ED7D620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
 
 
 
How do we replace the NT splash with the attached?
 
 
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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 19:30:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DBCC237B91B for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 19:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 3886 invoked from network); 19 May 2000 02:30:50 -0000 Received: from du27.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.27) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 19 May 2000 02:30:50 -0000 Message-ID: <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:00:03 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > You, Thomas M. Sommers, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 14, 2000 at 12:13:17AM -0400: > > Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > > > > > Next, consider crossword puzzles. They can't be copyrighted. They > > > are a result of hard work. > > > > Do you have a citation in support of this proposition? I have certainly > > seen copyright notices on collections of puzzles. > > The collections are copyrighted as *collections*, according to the > law of database copyright. You can rip off any individual crossword > and do with it what you will (you can't do that when the collection > is of poems). > According to 17 USC 103, "The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work ... ." Since puzzle collections generally consist only of puzzles, there is nothing that the editor contributes that could he could copyright. Reading the statute, I don't see how puzzles could not be copyright, unless they are considered "useful articles", which seems a stretch. I am sure that I have seen copyright notices on individual puzzles, but I can't find one right now, so I won't make that assertion. > Sorry, no citation. I am less willing to stake my life on the crosswords > issue than on the chess games issue, though, where the fact that individual > games can't be copyrighted is used every day by thousands of papers all > over the world in their news section, and is well-known inside the > community of chess fans and writers, etc. A chess game is an event, not a literary or artistic work of any sort. You could not more copyright a chess game than you could copyright a walk in the park. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 19:32:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8476737B91B for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 19:31:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 4155 invoked from network); 19 May 2000 02:30:56 -0000 Received: from du27.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.27) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 19 May 2000 02:30:56 -0000 Message-ID: <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:43:56 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <000001bfbf78$b1b345c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > The GPL does state: > > "Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies > of this license document, but changing it is not allowed." > > But this does not grant permission to apply the GPL to your works > however you please. It doesn't have to. You can use it any way you want, subject to any restrictions on use that it contains, and it contains none. > As far as I can tell, the only such grant is contained in the > "How to Apply These Terms to your New Programs" sections, which doesn't > permit this. The "How to Apply ..." thing is an appendix, not part of the license proper. It has no legal effect, any more than the preamble has. Even if it were binding, it is not written prescriptively: If you develop a new program, and you want it to be of the greatest possible use to the public, the best way to achieve this is to make it free software which everyone can redistribute and change under these terms. To do so, ... It is saying, "This is the best way to make your program useful", not "This is the only way you can use this license." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 20:22: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E1E137BD89 for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 20:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 612 invoked from network); 19 May 2000 03:21:24 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 19 May 2000 03:21:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 28521 invoked by uid 211); 19 May 2000 03:21:23 -0000 Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:51:23 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000519085123.C28431@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <000001bfbf78$b1b345c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Thu, May 18, 2000 at 07:43:56PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas M. Sommers said on May 18, 2000 at 19:43:56: > David Schwartz wrote: > > > > The GPL does state: > > > > "Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies > > of this license document, but changing it is not allowed." > > > > But this does not grant permission to apply the GPL to your works > > however you please. > > It doesn't have to. You can use it any way you want, subject to any > restrictions on use that it contains, and it contains none. In a later mail RMS confirmed that this is his own opinion. I wrote > Is it ok to license one's software under "version 2 of the GPL, and > only that version"? > > It is a bad idea, because when we have GPL version 3 and release other > programs under version 3, your program will be stuck at GPL version 2. > And it will be illegal to copy code between your program and all the > other GPL-covered programs that are released under GPL version 3. Thanks. The claim which I needed to answer was that a person who GPL's his program is forced to permit use of any later version, thus allowing the FSF more control over the licensing terms at any time in the future than he himself will ever possess. My answer (and that of some others) was basically that nobody forces you to do it but people do it out of choice. Moreover, even with the "any later version option", if the GPL 3 turns out to have some undesirable clauses, people will still have the *option* of continuing to distribute it under version 2. and he answered Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:27:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Richard Stallman To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in Subject: Re: GPL question Reply-to: rms@gnu.org My answer (and that of some others) was basically that nobody forces you to do it but people do it out of choice. That is true. Moreover, even with the "any later version option", if the GPL 3 turns out to have some undesirable clauses, people will still have the *option* of continuing to distribute it under version 2. That is true also. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 18 22:25:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web4702.mail.yahoo.com (web4702.mail.yahoo.com [216.115.105.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 38D4037B52E for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 22:25:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unixrock@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20000517221440.11915.qmail@web4702.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.24.155.13] by web4702.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 17 May 2000 15:14:40 PDT Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:14:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Resin M Subject: subscribe To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 0: 9:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blizzard.sabbo.net (blizzard.sabbo.net [193.193.218.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7772C37BD8E for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 00:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from SoboMax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from vega.vega.com (vic.sabbo.net [193.193.218.106]) by blizzard.sabbo.net (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05529; Fri, 19 May 2000 10:08:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from FreeBSD.org (big_brother.vega.com [192.168.1.1]) by vega.vega.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27925; Fri, 19 May 2000 10:08:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from SoboMax@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <3924E858.6D212B48@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:08:09 +0300 From: Maxim Sobolev Organization: Vega International Capital X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: uk,ru,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... References: <3922D3CE.8818CE80@FreeBSD.org> <3923A68A.DA87359B@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > > Besides a work, my interests include, but not limited to ;): > > o my family - I have a 5 months old daughter, so to speak...; > > Ooh. Got pictures on the web? ;^) Yes, I've just uploaded few at http://people.freebsd.org/~sobomax/dasha/. > > o FreeBSD porting; > > o music, mostly hevy-metal - Iron Maiden, Manowar and Alice Cooper, just to > > name few; > > You modern kids. ;) > > o science fiction. > > New? Old? At one time, I was able to keep up with Asimov, I could > read them faster than he could write them. I got seduced by mystery > novels and decade ago and have fallen away from SF. Both old and new. It is hard to name few from all of them, but Strugatskiye, Zelazny, the oldest writings of Golovachev (now he has commercialized too much) and Steven King is definitely the best. -Maxim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 9:42: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.va.home.com (ha1.rdc1.va.home.com [24.2.32.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14EC737C0EC; Fri, 19 May 2000 09:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx ([24.6.244.187]) by mail.rdc1.va.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20000519164145.DHRQ22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx>; Fri, 19 May 2000 09:41:45 -0700 Content-Length: 1130 X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000518151609.SQYR22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:42:35 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: John Baldwin Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Cc: Greg Lehey , Maxim Sobolev , Ruslan Ermilov , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dan Moschuk Message-Id: <20000519164145.DHRQ22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-May-00 John Baldwin wrote: > > On 18-May-00 Dan Moschuk wrote: >> >>| > Yeah, but as always there is still huge room for improvement as currently in >>| > Ukraine only 0.00000006 FreeBSD committers per capita. Very low penetration >>| > though ;). >>| >>| Ah, but how far apart do you live? There's more of a chance to get a >>| high position in the number of committers in a single city. Currently >>| that distinction goes to Boulder Colorado (4). At various times we >>| had 3 here in Adelaide SA, but they keep leaving to go to hell. >>| >>| Greg >> >> The small town of Oakville, Ontario (only around ~100k people) has two >> committers. That's a committer per capita ratio of about 0.00002. > > Concord, CA should be up to 6 now? (jkh, msmith, jim, unfurl, obrien, > cshumway) and should be up to 8 (wpaul, jhb) in another month or so. Oops, forgot about Murray (murray), so the count should be 7 and 9, respectively. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 13:46:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E90937B9C8 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 13:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14751; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:46:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000519144129.04244e60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:46:32 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net> References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:00 PM 5/18/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >A chess game is an event, not a literary or artistic work of any sort. >You could not more copyright a chess game than you could copyright a >walk in the park. Ah, but performers routinely prohibit recording or videotaping of plays and concerts, claiming a copyright on those "events." Likewise, the NFL and NBA claim copyrights baseball and football games, and have claimed that people who compile statistics and scores by watching licensed broadcasts are creating derivative works. What's more, the so-called "Collections of Information Anti-Piracy Act" (in the US Congress but not passed) would make the scores themselves the intellectual property of the league. You couldn't reproduce sports stats at all without a license. There's got to be a balance here, but with big money and big corporations in control of Congress things are out of kilter. The DMCA is a great example of taking things too far. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 13:53:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144C437BAA5 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 13:53:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14808; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:52:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000519144654.04244100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:52:28 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000519085123.C28431@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net> <000001bfbf78$b1b345c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:21 PM 5/18/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >In a later mail RMS confirmed that this is his own opinion. I wrote > > > Is it ok to license one's software under "version 2 of the GPL, and > > only that version"? > > > > It is a bad idea, because when we have GPL version 3 and release other > > programs under version 3, your program will be stuck at GPL version 2. > > And it will be illegal to copy code between your program and all the > > other GPL-covered programs that are released under GPL version 3. > > Thanks. The claim which I needed to answer was that a person who > GPL's his program is forced to permit use of any later version, thus > allowing the FSF more control over the licensing terms at any time in > the future than he himself will ever possess. My answer (and that of > some others) was basically that nobody forces you to do it but people > do it out of choice. Moreover, even with the "any later version > option", if the GPL 3 turns out to have some undesirable clauses, > people will still have the *option* of continuing to distribute it > under version 2. This assertion is a trap and a snare. The moment *one contributor* submits new code under the new license, the entire work is contaminated by the new license. Stallman is being disingenuous, as usual, by trying to disguise the extent to which he wants to control GPLed software. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 14:15:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.fw-sj.sony.com (mail6.fw-sj.sony.com [198.93.2.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C7C37B621 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:15:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rbowen@kiku.slt.sel.sony.com) Received: from mail2.sjc.in.sel.sony.com (mail2.sjc.in.sel.sony.com [43.134.1.111]) by mail6.fw-sj.sony.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26078; Fri, 19 May 2000 21:15:40 GMT Received: by mail2.sjc.in.sel.sony.com id VAA20939; Fri, 19 May 2000 21:15:40 GMT Received: from slt.sel.Sony.com (orchid [43.134.133.24]) by tulip.slt.sel.sony.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26675; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3925AEFB.F014FF9C@slt.sel.Sony.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:15:39 -0700 From: Robert Bowen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: New and interesting Hotmail/FreeBSD gossip Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We got a new sysadmin where I work part time. He just came from a job at Hotmail, and he told me today that they are in the process of converting all of their FreeBSD machines (over 15,000) to Win2000. A purely political move by Microsoft to stamp out this thorn in their side. Does anyone know more about the story? Robert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 14:33:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCA137B621 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:33:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22571; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200005192128.OAA22571@implode.root.com> To: Robert Bowen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New and interesting Hotmail/FreeBSD gossip In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 May 2000 14:15:39 PDT." <3925AEFB.F014FF9C@slt.sel.Sony.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:28:25 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >We got a new sysadmin where I work part time. He just came from a job at >Hotmail, and he told me today that they are in the process of converting >all of their FreeBSD machines (over 15,000) to Win2000. A purely >political move by Microsoft to stamp out this thorn in their side. Does >anyone know more about the story? I thought it was 'only' about 5000 machines. Anyway, yes, it's true that they are trying to convert again to Win/NT. The previous attempts failed; perhaps they'll have more success this time. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 14:45:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BF037B86B for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:45:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.nowhere (HSE-MTL-ppp4825.qc.sympatico.ca [209.226.108.8]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29553; Fri, 19 May 2000 17:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA38590; Fri, 19 May 2000 17:45:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:45:04 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: David Greenman Cc: Robert Bowen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New and interesting Hotmail/FreeBSD gossip Message-ID: <20000519174504.A38512@mad> References: <3925AEFB.F014FF9C@slt.sel.Sony.com> <200005192128.OAA22571@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <200005192128.OAA22571@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:28:25PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:28:25PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > >Hotmail, and he told me today that they are in the process of converting > >all of their FreeBSD machines (over 15,000) to Win2000. A purely > > I thought it was 'only' about 5000 machines. Anyway, yes, it's true that > they are trying to convert again to Win/NT. The previous attempts failed; Maybe that's why it's 15000 machines this time... -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 14:50:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6515F37B762 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 14:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e4JMNkc21571; Fri, 19 May 2000 15:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 15:23:46 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: David Greenman , Robert Bowen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New and interesting Hotmail/FreeBSD gossip Message-ID: <20000519152346.E13502@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3925AEFB.F014FF9C@slt.sel.Sony.com> <200005192128.OAA22571@implode.root.com> <20000519174504.A38512@mad> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000519174504.A38512@mad>; from vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca on Fri, May 19, 2000 at 05:45:04PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Tim Vanderhoek [000519 15:18] wrote: > On Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:28:25PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > > >Hotmail, and he told me today that they are in the process of converting > > >all of their FreeBSD machines (over 15,000) to Win2000. A purely > > > > I thought it was 'only' about 5000 machines. Anyway, yes, it's true that > > they are trying to convert again to Win/NT. The previous attempts failed; > > Maybe that's why it's 15000 machines this time... I thought MS was getting about a 40-1 ratio with thier clustering? 40 NT boxes to match 1 FreeBSD box was the last count with ftp.cdrom.com versus the Evil MS Cluster for the ftp bench? Is there really enough silicon here in the valley for Hotmail to deploy NT? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 15:25: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E610737B635 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 15:24:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 13406 invoked from network); 19 May 2000 22:24:38 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 19 May 2000 22:24:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 25213 invoked by uid 211); 19 May 2000 22:24:32 -0000 Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 03:54:32 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000520035431.B25168@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net> <000001bfbf78$b1b345c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net> <20000519085123.C28431@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000519144654.04244100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000519144654.04244100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, May 19, 2000 at 02:52:28PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This assertion is a trap and a snare. The moment *one contributor* > submits new code under the new license, the entire work is > contaminated by the new license. Stallman is being disingenuous, as If you are the maintainer, you don't have to accept code under the new license. And if someone chooses to fork your code, they don't need the benefit of a new license to do it. This has been gone through enough times on this thread. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 16:16:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE9737B63B for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 16:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 19 May 2000 16:14:48 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 16:15:59 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfc1e8$317b2270$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20000520035431.B25168@physics.iisc.ernet.in> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This assertion is a trap and a snare. The moment *one contributor* > > submits new code under the new license, the entire work is > > contaminated by the new license. Stallman is being disingenuous, as > If you are the maintainer, you don't have to accept code under the > new license. And if someone chooses to fork your code, they don't > need the benefit of a new license to do it. This has been gone > through enough times on this thread. Right, Rahul. You're absolutely right. When Linus realized that the GPL was causing him problems, he just should have removed from the code base every single piece of code he didn't write himself and start over with a better license. That's much smarter than just picking a better license in the first damn place. Linus' mistake was that he yielded the ability to fix defects in the license to someone else when he could just as easily have kept it for himself. In other words, he got screwed because he chose to use the GPL instead of a saner license. I keep hearing that Stallman plans to fix this in the next GPL. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. But from what I've read of what he's said, he's quite happy with the present mess. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 17:40: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E8337B669 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 17:40:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17574; Fri, 19 May 2000 18:39:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000519183732.042e79e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:39:30 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000520035431.B25168@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.1.2.20000519144654.04244100@localhost> <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net> <000001bfbf78$b1b345c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net> <20000519085123.C28431@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000519144654.04244100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:24 PM 5/19/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > This assertion is a trap and a snare. The moment *one contributor* > > submits new code under the new license, the entire work is > > contaminated by the new license. Stallman is being disingenuous, as > >If you are the maintainer, you don't have to accept code under the >new license. If the project is a "GNU" project, then the FSF has control of it. If it is not, odds are that it is run by someone who has bought into Stallman's rhetoric, does not understand the harm that the GPL does (after all, he used the previous version), and/or does not understand the problem of license contamination. Thus, the problem spreads -- again, due to Stallman's disingenuousness. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 17:41:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74CD37BE32 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 17:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17605; Fri, 19 May 2000 18:41:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000519184031.042fa6f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 18:41:00 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Rahul Siddharthan" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Cc: In-Reply-To: <000001bfc1e8$317b2270$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <20000520035431.B25168@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:15 PM 5/19/2000, David Schwartz wrote: > I keep hearing that Stallman plans to fix this in the next GPL. Maybe he >will and maybe he won't. But from what I've read of what he's said, he's >quite happy with the present mess. Of course. His goal is, explicitly, to MAKE a mess. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 21:33: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27D437B6CF for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 21:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtjin.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.206.87]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA19699 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 00:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39261731.31BB82B3@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:40:17 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <000001bfbf78$b1b345c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <3924803C.7C5BD92C@mail.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Thomas M. Sommers" wrote: > > It is saying, "This is the best way to make your program useful", not > "This is the only way you can use this license." > It should be noted as well that this is a statement of opinion that is a subject of great contentious debate and is *not* the universally agreed upon method of being "the best way to make your program useful". Some of us actually believe that it's a rather poor way of publishing ones work. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 19 23:55:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7825037B517 for ; Fri, 19 May 2000 23:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: by super-g.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9BA11B416; Sat, 20 May 2000 02:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 834B9B401; Sat, 20 May 2000 02:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:55:40 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Robert Bowen Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New and interesting Hotmail/FreeBSD gossip In-Reply-To: <3925AEFB.F014FF9C@slt.sel.Sony.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 May 2000, Robert Bowen wrote: > We got a new sysadmin where I work part time. He just came from a job at > Hotmail, and he told me today that they are in the process of converting > all of their FreeBSD machines (over 15,000) to Win2000. I would think 15,000 of anything to frontend a mail service should work OK.. I heard from a guy working at one of the big Chat/Community sites still has an old chat server app that runs on NT, and there is literally a number of employees there who run a 24/7 "push the reset button on the NT server" department. Lower TCO my ass... How many button pushers would you need for 15,000 NT servers? It seems like you'd lose one every few minutes at that size... Charles > A purely > political move by Microsoft to stamp out this thorn in their side. Does > anyone know more about the story? > > Robert > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 0:53:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4BE5537B56C for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 00:53:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 10558 invoked from network); 20 May 2000 07:53:28 -0000 Received: from du44.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.44) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 20 May 2000 07:53:28 -0000 Message-ID: <392625FE.43D7994B@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 01:43:26 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <4.3.1.2.20000519144129.04244e60@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 05:00 PM 5/18/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >A chess game is an event, not a literary or artistic work of any sort. > >You could not more copyright a chess game than you could copyright a > >walk in the park. > > Ah, but performers routinely prohibit recording or videotaping of > plays and concerts, claiming a copyright on those "events." Are they claiming copyright to the event, or that when you use your ticket you incurred a contractual obligation not to record the event? > Likewise, the NFL and NBA claim copyrights baseball and football > games, and have claimed that people who compile statistics and scores > by watching licensed broadcasts are creating derivative works. The broadcast, of course, is copyrightable, and anything based on it would be a derivative work. If you attend the game in person, see previous comment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 7:17:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE7237B533 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 07:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23318; Sat, 20 May 2000 08:17:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000520081306.046e03d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:17:28 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <392625FE.43D7994B@mail.ptd.net> References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <4.3.1.2.20000519144129.04244e60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:43 PM 5/19/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > Ah, but performers routinely prohibit recording or videotaping of > > plays and concerts, claiming a copyright on those "events." > >Are they claiming copyright to the event, or that when you use your >ticket you incurred a contractual obligation not to record the event? Both, actually. You will find notices on the tickets AND copyright notices in TV and radio broadcasts. > > Likewise, the NFL and NBA claim copyrights baseball and football > > games, and have claimed that people who compile statistics and scores > > by watching licensed broadcasts are creating derivative works. > >The broadcast, of course, is copyrightable, and anything based on it >would be a derivative work. If you attend the game in person, see >previous comment. Ah, but statistics are factual information, not an act of authorship. They're thus not subject to copyright by virtue of the US Constitution. The "Collections of Information Anti-Piracy Act" attempts an end run around this provision, and proponents claim it'll hold up on account of the "commerce clause." I'm dubious, and the Supreme Court is too; it has been stingy vis-a-vis this clause lately. But there's still a chance that big money could win the day. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 8:55:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02E5737B5C8 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 08:55:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA47170; Sat, 20 May 2000 18:55:44 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:55:44 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000520185544.A47143@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Thu, May 18, 2000 at 07:00:03PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 07:00:03PM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > Sorry, no citation. I am less willing to stake my life on the crosswords > > issue than on the chess games issue, though, where the fact that individual > > games can't be copyrighted is used every day by thousands of papers all > > over the world in their news section, and is well-known inside the > > community of chess fans and writers, etc. > > A chess game is an event, not a literary or artistic work of any sort. Sorry, but millions of chess fans who enjoy studying famous and brilliant games and compositions won't agree. Your claim is as sensible as claiming that a symphony can't be copyrighted. Indeed: - both a symphony and a chess game is a sequence of moves coming from a limited repertoire; - either is potentially infinite, but in reality finite; - either is capable of giving intense joy to great many people; - a good specimen of either kind takes wit, skill and hard work to create; - and so on. Obviously I'm simplifying, but the difference is one of degree. That there is immense creativity in chess, just as in music, is obvious to any knowledgable player. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 11: 4:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B398337B652 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 11:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh25.bfm.org [216.127.220.218]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 20 May 2000 13:04:39 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000520130326.008a9c50@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 13:03:26 -0500 To: Brett Glass , "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000520081306.046e03d0@localhost> References: <392625FE.43D7994B@mail.ptd.net> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <4.3.1.2.20000519144129.04244e60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:17 20-05-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >At 11:43 PM 5/19/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > >> > Ah, but performers routinely prohibit recording or videotaping of >> > plays and concerts, claiming a copyright on those "events." >> >>Are they claiming copyright to the event, or that when you use your >>ticket you incurred a contractual obligation not to record the event? > >Both, actually. You will find notices on the tickets AND copyright >notices in TV and radio broadcasts. TV broadcasts are covered by copyright law. They are not "events". Recordings and videotapes, too, are copyrightable (as are photographs). As for plays, there is also the issue of the play itself (the original written text) being covered by copyright. I acted in many plays at a local college theatre. The director makes a video of each play (one performance only), which he lets us view but not not copy. We cannot copy it because of the playwright's copyright. In fact, our director says regular theatres cannot even tape their own productions: He can only get away with it because it is a college theatre, and there is something in the copyright law (I don't know the details) that allows him to tape it for educational purposes - I'm just quoting what he says, no need to argue with me about its validity (I wouldn't know ). Once he produced a play he wrote, and not only did he tape it, he gave all of us a copy, since, as the author, he did not need his own permission. :) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 12:44:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CF837B598 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 12:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA94482; Sat, 20 May 2000 15:43:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 15:43:43 -0400 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Brett Glass , "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000520154342.C93357@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <4.3.1.2.20000519144129.04244e60@localhost> <4.3.1.2.20000520081306.046e03d0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000520130326.008a9c50@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000520130326.008a9c50@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Sat, May 20, 2000 at 01:03:26PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 20, 2000 at 01:03:26PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 08:17 20-05-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >At 11:43 PM 5/19/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > >> > Ah, but performers routinely prohibit recording or videotaping of > >> > plays and concerts, claiming a copyright on those "events." > >> > >>Are they claiming copyright to the event, or that when you use your > >>ticket you incurred a contractual obligation not to record the event? > > > >Both, actually. You will find notices on the tickets AND copyright > >notices in TV and radio broadcasts. > > TV broadcasts are covered by copyright law. They are not "events". > > Recordings and videotapes, too, are copyrightable (as are photographs). > > As for plays, there is also the issue of the play itself (the original > written text) being covered by copyright. > > I acted in many plays at a local college theatre. The director makes a > video of each play (one performance only), which he lets us view but not > not copy. We cannot copy it because of the playwright's copyright. In fact, > our director says regular theatres cannot even tape their own productions: > He can only get away with it because it is a college theatre, and there is > something in the copyright law (I don't know the details) that allows him > to tape it for educational purposes - I'm just quoting what he says, no > need to argue with me about its validity (I wouldn't know ). See United States Code, Title 17, Chapter 1, Sec 110. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/110.html -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 20:55:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD0737B7F4 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 20:55:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11203 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 23:54:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:54:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: FreeBSD-chat@freeBSD.org Subject: 18G disk drives Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been waiting a while to buy some replacement scsi disk drives. I run SCSI only, and I've wanted to buy a Ultra160 scsi drive, even though (AFAIK) we don't yet support Ultra160, because I think we will do that. The only affordable one, until last week, was a Seagate model, but I'd been warned that it ran red hot, and having already lost two drives to heat about 3 years ago, I'm just not willing to go down that road again. Well, according to pricewatch, now you can buy the IBM DPSS-318350 18.3G 7200rpm drive (Ultra 160) for $375, and the only thing stopping me is that I can't find anyone who's used it to tell me if it runs as cool as most recent IBM drives, or if it's a hot puppy like the Seagate. Anyone have any info regarding the DPSS-318350 and heat? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 21:25:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7443937B861 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 21:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28034; Sat, 20 May 2000 22:25:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000520222408.046dc5c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 22:25:21 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000520130326.008a9c50@mail85.pair.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000520081306.046e03d0@localhost> <392625FE.43D7994B@mail.ptd.net> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <4.3.1.2.20000519144129.04244e60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:03 PM 5/20/2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >I acted in many plays at a local college theatre. The director makes a >video of each play (one performance only), which he lets us view but not >not copy. We cannot copy it because of the playwright's copyright. Actually, there are more rights than the author's involved here. The actors have rights to the performance, too. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 21:32:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.aracnet.com (mail3.aracnet.com [216.99.193.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076B637B868 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 21:32:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail3.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08656; Sat, 20 May 2000 21:32:45 -0700 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id VAA07636; Sat, 20 May 2000 21:33:06 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 21:33:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Chuck Robey Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 18G disk drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, according to pricewatch, now you can buy the IBM DPSS-318350 18.3G > 7200rpm drive (Ultra 160) for $375, and the only thing stopping me is that > I can't find anyone who's used it to tell me if it runs as cool as most > recent IBM drives, or if it's a hot puppy like the Seagate. > > Anyone have any info regarding the DPSS-318350 and heat? I've not ran that model, but I thought I'd point out that you can get some fairly good cooling systems that fit in your 5 1/4 bays. Place the hard drive right below (or if you opt for that model,) inside and it'll help keep such problems from happening. You'll also want to make sure you have a fan in the front of the case. $50 worth of fans will save you lots of heartbreak and trouble, especially with SCSI :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 22:13:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B5E37B881 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 22:13:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA18155; Sun, 21 May 2000 01:12:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 01:12:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Rick Hamell Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 18G disk drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 20 May 2000, Rick Hamell wrote: > > > Well, according to pricewatch, now you can buy the IBM DPSS-318350 18.3G > > 7200rpm drive (Ultra 160) for $375, and the only thing stopping me is that > > I can't find anyone who's used it to tell me if it runs as cool as most > > recent IBM drives, or if it's a hot puppy like the Seagate. > > > > Anyone have any info regarding the DPSS-318350 and heat? > > I've not ran that model, but I thought I'd point out that you can > get some fairly good cooling systems that fit in your 5 1/4 bays. Place > the hard drive right below (or if you opt for that model,) inside and > it'll help keep such problems from happening. You'll also want to make > sure you have a fan in the front of the case. $50 worth of fans will save > you lots of heartbreak and trouble, especially with SCSI :) The point is, the current 4G IBM drives I have are so cool they are nearly at ambient, and make such cooling totally unneccesary. I keep on having to open the case on the ones that get fans, because of all the dust accumulation. I'm just not willing to use hot drives, I have this strong suspicion that, cooling or not, they are not as reliable. BTW, if you think maintaining cooling is as simple as placing an extra fan in, well, it's not. You have to very carefully consider air flow, and your heat sources. It's not enough just to push a lot of air. If I was doing it for a lot of PCs, for a company (and I had a number of probes to make certain) then you can do a good job, but most of the fan placements I've seen, even many of those done by big companies, are a joke, done on the same level as putting in flashy displays on a stereo (it makes the buyer feel good without improving performance). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 22:53:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 44E3137B7DD for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 22:53:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 19530 invoked from network); 21 May 2000 05:53:19 -0000 Received: from du23.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.23) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 21 May 2000 05:53:19 -0000 Message-ID: <392779A9.87E47388@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 01:52:41 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <4.3.1.2.20000519144129.04244e60@localhost> <4.3.1.2.20000520081306.046e03d0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 11:43 PM 5/19/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > > Ah, but performers routinely prohibit recording or videotaping of > > > plays and concerts, claiming a copyright on those "events." > > > >Are they claiming copyright to the event, or that when you use your > >ticket you incurred a contractual obligation not to record the event? > > Both, actually. You will find notices on the tickets AND copyright > notices in TV and radio broadcasts. Exactly. The event being broadcast and the broadcast itself are distinct, and different methods are needed to protect each. To be copyrightable, a work must be "fixed in any tangible medium of expression." 17 U.S.C. 102(a). A chess game is so fixed. An account or recording of a game is. With respect to plays and conerts, another consideration is that the work being performed may be copyrighted. > > > Likewise, the NFL and NBA claim copyrights baseball and football > > > games, and have claimed that people who compile statistics and scores > > > by watching licensed broadcasts are creating derivative works. > > > >The broadcast, of course, is copyrightable, and anything based on it > >would be a derivative work. If you attend the game in person, see > >previous comment. > > Ah, but statistics are factual information, not an act of authorship. > They're thus not subject to copyright by virtue of the US Constitution. I think it's a statutory, not constitutional, question. One could argue that a batting average could be copyrighted because it takes some work to calculate, beyond merely observing a game. > The "Collections of Information Anti-Piracy Act" attempts an end run > around this provision, and proponents claim it'll hold up on account > of the "commerce clause." I'm dubious, and the Supreme Court is too; > it has been stingy vis-a-vis this clause lately. But there's still a > chance that big money could win the day. In my opinion, they have not been stingy enough. But that is another matter. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 22:53:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0A5237B6A0 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 22:53:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 19773 invoked from network); 21 May 2000 05:53:26 -0000 Received: from du23.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.23) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 21 May 2000 05:53:26 -0000 Message-ID: <39270B29.D09AA59D@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 18:01:13 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net> <20000520185544.A47143@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 07:00:03PM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > Sorry, no citation. I am less willing to stake my life on the crosswords > > > issue than on the chess games issue, though, where the fact that individual > > > games can't be copyrighted is used every day by thousands of papers all > > > over the world in their news section, and is well-known inside the > > > community of chess fans and writers, etc. > > > > A chess game is an event, not a literary or artistic work of any sort. > > Sorry, but millions of chess fans who enjoy studying famous and brilliant > games and compositions won't agree. Your claim is as sensible as claiming > that a symphony can't be copyrighted. Not at all. Copyright of music is specifically provided for by the statute. A chess game, however, is not a literary or artistic work of any sort, *as defined by the statute*. > Indeed: > > - both a symphony and a chess game is a sequence of moves coming from a > limited repertoire; > - either is potentially infinite, but in reality finite; > - either is capable of giving intense joy to great many people; > - a good specimen of either kind takes wit, skill and hard work to > create; > - and so on. > > Obviously I'm simplifying, but the difference is one of degree. That > there is immense creativity in chess, just as in music, is obvious to > any knowledgable player. All this may be true, but it is irrelevant. What matters, *all* that matters, is the wording of the statute. A symphony is copyrightable because it falls in one of the categories of works that the statute says are copyrightable. A game of chess is not, because it isn't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 20 23:21:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA22637B772 for ; Sat, 20 May 2000 23:21:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh2.bfm.org [216.127.220.195]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 21 May 2000 01:21:53 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000521012052.008c1100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 01:20:52 -0500 To: Brett Glass , "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000520222408.046dc5c0@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20000520130326.008a9c50@mail85.pair.com> <4.3.1.2.20000520081306.046e03d0@localhost> <392625FE.43D7994B@mail.ptd.net> <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <4.3.1.2.20000519144129.04244e60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22:25 20-05-2000 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >Actually, there are more rights than the author's involved here. The >actors have rights to the performance, too. Certainly. Though in our case that would not have been a problem. None of us (actors) would have objected to the rest of the cast having their own copy of the video if that let us having one ourselves. :) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message