From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 8 15:13:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CACA014D96 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 15:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07762; Sat, 8 May 1999 18:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 18:13:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca To: Nathan Ahlstrom Cc: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner In-Reply-To: <19990506104025.A26048@winternet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 May 1999, Nathan Ahlstrom wrote: > > Which begs the question, how are people planning to get around Monterey? > Are most renting cars? or relying on cabs, busses, etc? Rental car, with one other sysadmin with me, so we can probably squeeze two or three more people in (I have no idea what kind of car we are getting yet). -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 8 16:12:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BE415053; Sat, 8 May 1999 16:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA20871; Sat, 8 May 1999 16:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 16:11:12 -0700 (PDT) From: rick hamell To: pdx-freebsd@toybox.placo.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: May Portland FreeBSD Users Group Announcement Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Portland FreeBSD Users Group has been scheduled for the third thursday of each month. For May this is going to be the 20th. This month's and probally next months location is the same as the Unix (Linux) Users Group, the PSU Miller Library in rm. 160 at 6:30PM This months topic will be hopefully be PPP by Ted Middlestat. If anyone else is interested in a speaking on a topic, please let me know. :) I'm planning on doing the pizza thing, so a RSVP to let me know how many people are coming would be apprecited. :) Rick ---- "Religion exists because man can't belive that he's nothing more then a random accident." http://www.grendal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 20:25:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D472A14DEC for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 20:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (TC2-dial-65-215.oldslip.inch.com [207.240.215.65]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.1a/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA03729 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 23:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905100325.XAA03729@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 23:18:06 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just saw an interesting link in slashdot about an ethernet card with built in TCP stack: http://www.interprophet.com/demo.html The makers of the card claim that in a test VS a regular NIC they were able to push about twice as much data with about 1/9th the utilization in the CPU. Does a regular NIC card takes so many CPU cycles? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 21: 5:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218CE152E7 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 21:05:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14851 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 00:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06703 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 00:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:05:14 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Server Uptimes project... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On the soapbox... A while back someone announced the "Server Uptimes" page at http://uptime.hexon.cx. In fact, for a while some FreeBSD user was reporting an erroneous uptime of 10000 days. Anyways, as far as number of hosts registered, FreeBSD is 4th with 43 behind Linux with 300+, NT with 47, and Win98 with 45. All we need is five more machines to be in second there. Also, some good news is that almost all of the top 10 spots for both current and all time are split between FreeBSD and Linux, so we are putting on a good show, it'd just be nice to show how many of us there are. It'd be really nice to outdo Linux, but second place is better than fourth, too. Also, the little daemon you have to run doesn't eat up any time, from what I've seen. After 20 days on my P5-166, it's only taken up 4.76 seconds, so those of you with desktops can afford that. Off the soapbox... --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 21:35: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210FC14F33 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 21:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA08030; Sun, 9 May 1999 23:34:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 23:34:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Server Uptimes project... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 10 May 1999, John Baldwin wrote: > On the soapbox... > > A while back someone announced the "Server Uptimes" page at > http://uptime.hexon.cx. In fact, for a while some FreeBSD user was reporting > an erroneous uptime of 10000 days. Anyways, as far as number of hosts > registered, FreeBSD is 4th with 43 behind Linux with 300+, NT with 47, and > Win98 with 45. All we need is five more machines to be in second there. I've got a 2.2.6-BETA (don't ask) box I set up for a client that will be up for almost 400 days soon, but it doesn't have Internet access... I wonder if a scanned Polaroid of a telnet session from a Win95 box (it's headless) on its local network would be sufficient proof. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) "One should admire Windows users. It takes a great deal of courage to trust Windows with your data." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 21:40:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16DB14F33 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 21:40:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08236; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:40:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990509223651.00bf9210@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 22:39:47 -0600 To: "Francisco Reyes" , "FreeBSd Chat list" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in In-Reply-To: <199905100325.XAA03729@arutam.inch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A NIC does take a lot of cycles, but there isn't much on that Web site to back up the somewhat fantastic claims of 1000x performance improvement. Also, it's not clear whether the cards are cost-effective, because they sell at such a fantastically high price. I've thought for years about implementing a TCP/IP stack in a coprocessor board -- even prototyped a dedicated PPP board. Could never convince myself that I could sell enough of them to break even, though. --Brett Glass At 11:18 PM 5/9/99 -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: >Just saw an interesting link in slashdot about an ethernet card with >built in TCP stack: >http://www.interprophet.com/demo.html > >The makers of the card claim that in a test VS a regular NIC they were >able to push about twice as much data with about 1/9th the utilization >in the CPU. > >Does a regular NIC card takes so many CPU cycles? > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 22:27:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0ACB14C89 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:27:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA53672; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199905100526.WAA53672@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Francisco Reyes" , "FreeBSd Chat list" Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 May 1999 22:39:47 MDT." <4.2.0.37.19990509223651.00bf9210@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 22:26:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For historical notes, Touch Communicatios implemented an ISO stack on on a 3com programmable NIC around 1987 --- I was part of Touch Communications. Cheers -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 22:33:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898551551D for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (TC2-dial-65-215.oldslip.inch.com [207.240.215.65]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.1a/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA12635; Mon, 10 May 1999 01:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905100533.BAA12635@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Amancio Hasty" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:22:22 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 09 May 1999 22:26:24 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >For historical notes, Touch Communicatios implemented an ISO stack on >on a 3com programmable NIC around 1987 --- I was part of Touch >Communications. Any ideas what happened to that NIC? It is my impression that chips that offload functions from the CPU seem to be gaining some momentum. Probably because of advances in technology and reduced cost of manufacturing such chips. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 22:36:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD1114C23 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:36:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22821; Mon, 10 May 1999 15:05:42 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905100533.BAA12635@arutam.inch.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:05:42 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Francisco Reyes Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Cc: FreeBSd Chat list , Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-99 Francisco Reyes wrote: > Any ideas what happened to that NIC? > It is my impression that chips that offload functions from the CPU seem > to be gaining some momentum. Probably because of advances in technology > and reduced cost of manufacturing such chips. And the cycle of reincarnation is coming around again :) Don't worry in a few years it will be back to what it was.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 22:37:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C4914D0B for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA53783; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:36:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199905100536.WAA53783@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Francisco Reyes" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 May 1999 01:22:22 EDT." <199905100533.BAA12635@arutam.inch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 22:36:23 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am sure that the NIC got discontinued . Remember the product was developed back in 1987 more than 12 years ago. Best Regards > On Sun, 09 May 1999 22:26:24 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > >For historical notes, Touch Communicatios implemented an ISO stack on > >on a 3com programmable NIC around 1987 --- I was part of Touch > >Communications. > > Any ideas what happened to that NIC? > It is my impression that chips that offload functions from the CPU seem > to be gaining some momentum. Probably because of advances in technology > and reduced cost of manufacturing such chips. > -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 22:42:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7729D14D0B for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA53849; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199905100541.WAA53849@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 May 1999 15:05:42 +0930." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 22:41:31 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The scenario is a plausible given that windows is so ineficient 8) > > On 10-May-99 Francisco Reyes wrote: > > Any ideas what happened to that NIC? > > It is my impression that chips that offload functions from the CPU seem > > to be gaining some momentum. Probably because of advances in technology > > and reduced cost of manufacturing such chips. > > And the cycle of reincarnation is coming around again :) > > Don't worry in a few years it will be back to what it was.. > > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 22:48:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7661714D0B for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA15223; Mon, 10 May 1999 01:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:48:27 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Server Uptimes project... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Neat stuff, I just added six hosts (4 FreeBSD, 1 Windows95, 1 Solaris) and one of my routers made it to the top 10... Charles --- Charles Sprickman spork@super-g.com --- On Mon, 10 May 1999, John Baldwin wrote: > On the soapbox... > > A while back someone announced the "Server Uptimes" page at > http://uptime.hexon.cx. In fact, for a while some FreeBSD user was reporting > an erroneous uptime of 10000 days. Anyways, as far as number of hosts > registered, FreeBSD is 4th with 43 behind Linux with 300+, NT with 47, and > Win98 with 45. All we need is five more machines to be in second there. Also, > some good news is that almost all of the top 10 spots for both current and all > time are split between FreeBSD and Linux, so we are putting on a good show, > it'd just be nice to show how many of us there are. It'd be really nice to > outdo Linux, but second place is better than fourth, too. Also, the little > daemon you have to run doesn't eat up any time, from what I've seen. After 20 > days on my P5-166, it's only taken up 4.76 seconds, so those of you with > desktops can afford that. > > Off the soapbox... > > --- > > John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ > PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 22:49:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7FDD14D0B for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23003; Mon, 10 May 1999 15:19:06 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905100541.WAA53849@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:19:06 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in Cc: FreeBSd Chat list , Francisco Reyes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: > The scenario is a plausible given that windows is so ineficient 8) Heh.. well in a few years, we'll have CPU power >> network bandwidth, so it won't matter 8-) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 22:53:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay02.netaddress.usa.net (relay02.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 547541574B for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 22:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 17421 invoked from network); 10 May 1999 05:53:40 -0000 Received: from nwcst022.netaddress.usa.net (HELO www02.netaddress.usa.net) (204.68.24.22) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 10 May 1999 05:53:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 11275 invoked by uid 60001); 10 May 1999 05:53:40 -0000 Message-ID: <19990510055340.11274.qmail@www02.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.22 by nwcst022 via web-mailer(M3.0.0.118) on Mon May 10 05:53:40 GMT 1999 Date: 9 May 99 22:53:40 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: paul@originative.co.uk, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [RE: Somewhat in my own defense] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.0.0.118) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org paul@originative.co.uk wrote: > = > Journalists like two things. > = > 1) Ready made press releases, generally a small bit of prose that = > makes a > single point clearly that they can more or less cut and paste into thei= r > publication without too much work. Journalists like to minimise = > their work > (who doesn't). > Jordan, with regard to this statement I can say this is absolutely true. You can see my articles at: http://www.markshapiro.com/magsbyauth.html And aside from an occasional interview many times I and many journalist I know would simply take a 'news release' and = print it verbatum. The biggest problem is getting verification of what a company says. So many times = you end up saying things like: So-and-so claims that... or = Just release is.... It all boils down to the same. If you write the way you want it say, then write it that way. M$ knows this and plays on it especially with items like the current Mindcruft issue & RHL. You some perspective and opinion. --- I am not a bot. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 9 23:51: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 00B0214CBB for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 23:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 11969 invoked by uid 1000); 10 May 1999 06:51:10 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:51:10 +0200 From: Andreas Braukmann To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Server Uptimes project... Message-ID: <19990510085110.F387@paert.tse-online.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Dillon on Sun, May 09, 1999 at 11:34:59PM -0500 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Sun, May 09, 1999 at 11:34:59PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > On Mon, 10 May 1999, John Baldwin wrote: > > > A while back someone announced the "Server Uptimes" page at > > http://uptime.hexon.cx. In fact, for a while some FreeBSD user > > was reporting an erroneous uptime of 10000 days. Anyways, as far > > as number of hosts registered, FreeBSD is 4th with 43 behind > > Linux with 300+, NT with 47, and Win98 with 45. All we need is > > five more machines to be in second there. > be up for almost 400 days soon, but it doesn't have Internet access... ... I keep wondering about the reason not allowing reporting intervals greater than 10 minutes. I have various BSD boxes 'under my control' with rather large uptimes. The problem: they're only connected to the Internet through 'ISDN dial on demand'-routers; ... and since we're based in Germany dialing each 10 minutes in a 24x7 manner comes out quite expensive. :( ... but I'm going to add our webserver; /home/www/server/logs> uname -a; uptime FreeBSD riley.tse-online.de 2.2.6-STABLE FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE #0: Tue Oct 6 17:47:45 CEST 1998 toor@riley.tse-online.de:/usr/src/sys/compile/WWWS i386 8:49AM up 215 days, 15:48, 6 users, load averages: 0.99, 0.98, 0.99 Bye, Andreas -- : TSE TeleService GmbH : Gsf: Arne Reuter : : : Hovestrasse 14 : Andreas Braukmann : We do it with : : D-48351 Everswinkel : HRB: 1430, AG WAF : FreeBSD/SMP : :--------------------------------------------------------------------: : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 1:13:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A00414C08; Mon, 10 May 1999 01:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA16497; Mon, 10 May 1999 17:43:13 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id RAA52925; Mon, 10 May 1999 17:43:11 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:43:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jesus Monroy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Request For Better Communications Message-ID: <19990510174310.H22791@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990510073253.4045.qmail@www0s.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990510073253.4045.qmail@www0s.netaddress.usa.net>; from Jesus Monroy on Mon, May 10, 1999 at 12:32:52AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 10 May 1999 at 0:32:52 -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > I'll be making some general comments soon. > To translate them correctly please use the > following URL. > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?15494 > > --- > IN that context, it is the BSD that should be considered, > not the prefix. > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?34858 Well, since you're reviewing ancient history, maybe you can explain what you meant by the attached message. You disappeared rather suddenly after that. Greg > Xref: sserve comp.unix.bsd:13039 comp.os.386bsd.development:1551 comp.os.386bsd.bugs:1893 comp.os.386bsd.apps:764 comp.os.386bsd.questions:7326 comp.os.386bsd.misc:1682 > Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd,comp.os.386bsd.development,comp.os.386bsd.bugs,comp.os.386bsd.apps,comp.os.386bsd.questions,comp.os.386bsd.misc > Path: sserve!newshost.anu.edu.au!munnari.oz.au!news.Hawaii.Edu!ames!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!jmonroy > From: jmonroy@netcom.com (Jesus Monroy Jr) > Subject: More on the Conflict of Interest > Message-ID: > Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) > Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 01:01:47 GMT > Lines: 62 > > > > More on the Conflict of Interest > -------------------------------- > > Recently, in light of the ensueing processes which are > deteremined to their rightness, I have been working on the > projects that make my financial and professional interest. > In short, I don't have time for petty in-fighting. > > I did not (and have not had) time to read the thread > which mentioned the "non-merger" of the *bsd interests. So, > comments by me at this time are without reflection on > all the present facts. Also, e-mail to me about the "moderator > please resign, BS" is sitting in my in-box, and will not be answer > until after "The Great Debate". > > I am aware that at times some of my comments seemed a bit of > line, but without all the facts it is just that (a seemingly > out-of-line-comment). I really don't have time to play the games > that people like T. Deradt want to play. Comment about > "net-bag-lady", "mentally-unstable", "politically-uncorrect" > and "non-net-equitte" are plain bull, a waste of my time and > show a great deal of unprofessionalisim by those involved. > In addition, language of vulgar context is not appreciated in > my "mbox". In short, expect a harsher treatment by me to you > (that take on these tactics). > > I will still be continuing with this newsgroup, but I must > for the sake of the moronic-unstable-childish-pathetic- > pre-adolescent-wannabes with dillusion of being the next Bill > Gates take on new tactics: > > 1) Don't expect fairings. > 2) If confused read #1. > 3) If you can't find a rule to apply read rule #1. > 4) If you work for BSDI, USL, Novell or UUNET read > rule #1. > 5) If you want me to play by *your* rules read rule #1. > 6) If you want to reason with me, then send reasonable > mail else read rule #1. > 7) If you've got a problem with my attitude or the > way I say things read rule #1. > 8) If you are going to mail me a nasty "this posting > is just your way of proving your a XXX" read rule #1. > 9) If you expect that I will do less on the account of > a handful of wannabes, read rule #1. > > 10) In case of any confusion, all the above tactics only > apply to the moronic-unstable-childish-pathetic- > pre-adolescent-wannabes with dillusion of being the > next Bill Gates. > > 11) This is a paranoid fantasy; have fun with it; > read rule #1. > > > -- > Jesus Monroy Jr jmonroy@netcom.com > Zebra Research > /386BSD/device-drivers /fd /qic /clock /documentation ___________________________________________________________________________ -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 1:18: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3797B156FA for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 01:17:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA01504; Mon, 10 May 1999 01:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:17:30 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: May BAFUG meeting in San Francisco Message-ID: <19990510011730.A1461@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- San Francisco BAFUG -- The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, May 13th. This months meeting will be held at The Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Nicole Harrington with give a brief talk on the new FreeBSD port of Inktomi (www.inktomi.com) web caching software. Nicole and the company she works for ISP Channel (www.ispchannel.com) were instrumental for getting it ported and will soon be using it extensively. Nicole Harrington will also give a talk outline of her upcoming article on setting up a high performance web server. This talk will cover a number of issues including hardware selection, software tuning and tricks. ==> Josef Grosch will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on May 8th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Cow Place in Daly City. This Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). We will also have an Install-A-Thon at the Oakland Convention Center on May 15th. See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Due to a schedule conflict with the Usenix Technical Conference in Monterey, there will not be a June BAFUG meeting in San Francisco. Our next meeting will be July 8th. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at The Reef in San Francisco. The Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.reef.com http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before May 13th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com $Id: May99Announce.Frisco.txt,v 1.5 1999/05/10 08:16:50 jgrosch Exp $ -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 2: 6: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www0n.netaddress.usa.net (www0n.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7613914F94 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 02:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 19855 invoked by uid 60001); 10 May 1999 09:05:56 -0000 Message-ID: <19990510090556.19854.qmail@www0n.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.43 by www0n via web-mailer(M3.0.0.118) on Mon May 10 09:05:55 GMT 1999 Date: 10 May 99 02:05:55 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Greg Lehey , Jesus Monroy Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.0.0.118) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 10 May 1999 at 0:32:52 -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > I'll be making some general comments soon. > > To translate them correctly please use the > > following URL. > > > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?15494 > > > > --- > > IN that context, it is the BSD that should be considered, > > not the prefix. > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?34858 > = > Well, since you're reviewing ancient history, maybe you can explain > what you meant by the attached message. You disappeared rather > suddenly after that. > = You must be confused. 10) In case of any confusion, all the above tactics only apply to the moronic-unstable-childish-pathetic- pre-adolescent-wannabes with dillusion of being the next Bill Gates. --- IN that context, it is the BSD that should be considered, not the prefix. http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?34858 ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 2: 8:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC7714CA9; Mon, 10 May 1999 02:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id CAA84082; Mon, 10 May 1999 02:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Message-ID: <19990510020843.D83714@nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 02:08:43 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Pat Lynch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Thu, May 06, 1999 at 11:34:48AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-BETA Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (I lean towards the Mission Ranch in Carmel, but I'm not sure how far > it is from the Conference Center). Far enough that you will have to round up cars. If I remember correctly Carmel would be 20min or so from USENIX central. So this would probably be a bad idea. From the web page I can't get a suffient address to use with http://www.mapquest.com/ to be sure. IMHO, something on Fisherman's Wharf would be nice, since that gives the flavor of Monterey. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 2:19: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8023914CB4; Mon, 10 May 1999 02:18:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA16815; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:48:46 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA54225; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:48:40 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:48:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jesus Monroy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Message-ID: <19990510184840.I22791@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990510090556.19854.qmail@www0n.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990510090556.19854.qmail@www0n.netaddress.usa.net>; from Jesus Monroy on Mon, May 10, 1999 at 02:05:55AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 10 May 1999 at 2:05:55 -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Monday, 10 May 1999 at 0:32:52 -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: >>> I'll be making some general comments soon. >>> To translate them correctly please use the >>> following URL. >>> >>> http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?15494 >>> >>> --- >>> IN that context, it is the BSD that should be considered, >>> not the prefix. >>> http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?34858 >> >> Well, since you're reviewing ancient history, maybe you can explain >> what you meant by the attached message. You disappeared rather >> suddenly after that. >> > You must be confused. No, you provided for that. There's a difference between confusion and fairings. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 2:21:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE3C14CB4; Mon, 10 May 1999 02:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA16842; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:51:36 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA54279; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:51:36 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:51:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: obrien@NUXI.com Cc: Pat Lynch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-ID: <19990510185135.J22791@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990510020843.D83714@nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990510020843.D83714@nuxi.com>; from David O'Brien on Mon, May 10, 1999 at 02:08:43AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 10 May 1999 at 2:08:43 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: >> (I lean towards the Mission Ranch in Carmel, but I'm not sure how far >> it is from the Conference Center). > > Far enough that you will have to round up cars. If I remember correctly > Carmel would be 20min or so from USENIX central. So this would probably > be a bad idea. > >> From the web page I can't get a suffient address to use with > http://www.mapquest.com/ to be sure. > > IMHO, something on Fisherman's Wharf would be nice, since that gives the > flavor of Monterey. Agreed on both points. How about Domenico's? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 2:29:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C9A15BBE for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 02:29:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:27:29 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:27:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@lemis.com] > Sent: 10 May 1999 10:19 > To: Jesus Monroy > Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; FreeBSD Chat > Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] > > > On Monday, 10 May 1999 at 2:05:55 -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Monday, 10 May 1999 at 0:32:52 -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > >>> I'll be making some general comments soon. > >>> To translate them correctly please use the > >>> following URL. > >>> > >>> http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?15494 > >>> > >>> --- > >>> IN that context, it is the BSD that should be considered, > >>> not the prefix. > >>> http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?34858 > >> > >> Well, since you're reviewing ancient history, maybe you can explain > >> what you meant by the attached message. You disappeared rather > >> suddenly after that. > >> > > You must be confused. > > No, you provided for that. There's a difference between confusion and > fairings. Ok, what the hell does fairings mean? My dictionary says it's related to streamlining but it's use in these groups doesn't always seem to match that? Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 2:41:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE0E14E5E for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 02:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA81113; Mon, 10 May 1999 02:41:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 May 1999 10:27:26 BST." Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 02:41:51 -0700 Message-ID: <81088.926329311@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Ok, what the hell does fairings mean? My dictionary says it's related to > streamlining but it's use in these groups doesn't always seem to match that? You just can't expect fairings from Jesus. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 3: 1: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 664CC14DEA for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 03:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id UAA09934; Mon, 10 May 1999 20:00:47 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990510200043.60908@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:00:43 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: paul@originative.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] References: <81088.926329311@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <81088.926329311@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, May 10, 1999 at 02:41:51AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 10, 1999 at 02:41:51AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Ok, what the hell does fairings mean? My dictionary says it's related to > > streamlining but it's use in these groups doesn't always seem to match that? > > You just can't expect fairings from Jesus. I'd be willing to pay for the stuff he's smoking. -- Regards, -*Sue*- (` () '` <-- a +3 uncursed budgerigar named Einstein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 4: 9:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074AF14FD0 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 04:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Mon, 10 May 1999 13:12:22 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795F9@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:07:50 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'd be willing to pay for the stuff he's smoking. > [ML] Oh no, someone has restore(8)d the wrong tape--the one with jesus.pl on it :) > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > (` > () > '` <-- a +3 uncursed budgerigar named Einstein [ML] been playing nethack lately? > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 6: 3:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com (as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com [206.27.167.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABF014BD0 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 06:03:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id IAA13212 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 May 1999 08:01:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:01:42 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: conrads@neosoft.com From: Conrad Sabatier To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Stupidity subjects box to *severe* stress test -- FreeBSD passes with flying colors Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ The following was mailed to a friend of mine whose -STABLE box I've been maintaining. Even under the conditions described below, I was still able to rlogin and bring the machine back to a useable state, a real credit to FreeBSD's performance and reliablity. ] -----FW: Stupid, stupid, stupid! ----- Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 07:03:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Conrad Sabatier To: "Wayne F. Cox" Subject: Stupid, stupid, stupid! Got your mail this morning (it's a miracle you were able to send it; must have been a real exercise in frustration, I'm sure). I'm terribly, terribly sorry. It was such a stupid, idiotic mistake. In your root crontab, I had scheduled a job to update your ports collection at 3:00 am (I thought) [ Note: this included a "make -k readmes index" after the actual update ]. What I actually had done, though, was schedule the job to run *every* *friggin'* *minute* starting at 3:00 am. So you had literally *hundreds* of these things going. The scheduling info should have read: 0 3 * * * Whereas, instead, it actually read: * 3 * * * You can see, I'm sure, that the first asterisk was the culprit. It's a real credit to the stability and solidity of FreeBSD that all these processes running simultaneously [in only 64 MB/128 MB swap!] didn't just crash the system altogether. A lesser operating system surely would have choked to death in no time. Talk about a stress test! :-) I've gone in and fixed my error, and killed all the errant processes. Tonight at 3:00 am you should notice a marked difference, I guarantee. Again, I am truly sorry. But even the best of us UNIX Guru types are entitled to an occasional stupid fuck-up. :-) Take care, Conrad -- Conrad Sabatier Acid absorbs 47 times it's weight in excess Reality. --------------End of forwarded message------------------------- -- Conrad Sabatier "I'd love to go out with you, but I've been scheduled for a karma transplant." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 6:40:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A537F152E5 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 06:40:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06097; Mon, 10 May 1999 09:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:40:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stupidity subjects box to *severe* stress test -- FreeBSD passes with flying colors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I made the same mistake once... running tripwire at 1 am, I ran 60 copies of tripwire, when I woke up in the morning, and logged in remotely, it was a little sluggish, and the load was up to 134 or something like that... (ok, a *little* sluggish is an understatement) but I was able to kill all the tripwire processes (took me 25 minutes) and the machine was back on its way.... this was a 486DX2/66 running 2.2.6 at the time. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 10 May 1999, Conrad Sabatier wrote: > [ The following was mailed to a friend of mine whose -STABLE box I've been > maintaining. Even under the conditions described below, I was still able > to rlogin and bring the machine back to a useable state, a real credit to > FreeBSD's performance and reliablity. ] > > -----FW: Stupid, stupid, stupid! ----- > > Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 07:03:04 -0500 (CDT) > From: Conrad Sabatier > To: "Wayne F. Cox" > Subject: Stupid, stupid, stupid! > > Got your mail this morning (it's a miracle you were able to send it; must > have been a real exercise in frustration, I'm sure). > > I'm terribly, terribly sorry. It was such a stupid, idiotic mistake. In > your root crontab, I had scheduled a job to update your ports collection at > 3:00 am (I thought) [ Note: this included a "make -k readmes index" after > the actual update ]. What I actually had done, though, was schedule the > job to run *every* *friggin'* *minute* starting at 3:00 am. So you had > literally *hundreds* of these things going. > > The scheduling info should have read: > > 0 3 * * * > > Whereas, instead, it actually read: > > * 3 * * * > > You can see, I'm sure, that the first asterisk was the culprit. > > It's a real credit to the stability and solidity of FreeBSD that all these > processes running simultaneously [in only 64 MB/128 MB swap!] didn't just > crash the system altogether. A lesser operating system surely would have > choked to death in no time. Talk about a stress test! :-) > > I've gone in and fixed my error, and killed all the errant processes. > Tonight at 3:00 am you should notice a marked difference, I guarantee. > > Again, I am truly sorry. But even the best of us UNIX Guru types are > entitled to an occasional stupid fuck-up. :-) > > Take care, > > Conrad > > -- > Conrad Sabatier > > Acid absorbs 47 times it's weight in excess Reality. > > > --------------End of forwarded message------------------------- > > -- > Conrad Sabatier > > "I'd love to go out with you, but I've been scheduled for a karma > transplant." > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 7:53:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E5B15647 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 07:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11497; Mon, 10 May 1999 08:52:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990510084719.04123d50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:51:54 -0600 To: Amancio Hasty , "Daniel O'Connor" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSd Chat list In-Reply-To: <199905100541.WAA53849@rah.star-gate.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The thing is, though, that IP is generally not the bottleneck. The other processes within the server are. Note that, in order to show off their board's performance, the makers of the card had to run raw data transfers -- no processing done on the data at all. The moment you add something like Web service, Sendmail, or whatever, the limiting factor is no longer the IP stack, if it ever was. (And whether it EVER was still depends on a number of factors. I could imagine a TCP/IP card being SLOWER than a dumb NIC, or even dropping connections, if it ran short on memory.) --Brett Glass At 10:41 PM 5/9/99 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >The scenario is a plausible given that windows is so ineficient 8) > > > > > > On 10-May-99 Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > Any ideas what happened to that NIC? > > > It is my impression that chips that offload functions from the CPU seem > > > to be gaining some momentum. Probably because of advances in technology > > > and reduced cost of manufacturing such chips. > > > > And the cycle of reincarnation is coming around again :) > > > > Don't worry in a few years it will be back to what it was.. > > > > --- > > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > > "The nice thing about standards is that there > > are so many of them to choose from." > > -- Andrew Tanenbaum > >-- > > Amancio Hasty > hasty@star-gate.com > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 10:50: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E5514BD6 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07473; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:49:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd007423; Mon May 10 10:49:44 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03139; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:49:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905101749.KAA03139@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in To: freyes@inch.com Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:49:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905100325.XAA03729@arutam.inch.com> from "Francisco Reyes" at May 9, 99 11:18:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Just saw an interesting link in slashdot about an ethernet card with > built in TCP stack: > http://www.interprophet.com/demo.html > > The makers of the card claim that in a test VS a regular NIC they were > able to push about twice as much data with about 1/9th the utilization > in the CPU. > > Does a regular NIC card takes so many CPU cycles? Only if you don't trust the hardware checksumming, and turn on the software stuff for fear of packet corruption somwhere between layers 2 an 4. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 10:57:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E4A14BD6 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16944; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:57:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd016873; Mon May 10 10:56:59 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03644; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:56:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905101756.KAA03644@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in To: freyes@inch.com Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:56:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905100533.BAA12635@arutam.inch.com> from "Francisco Reyes" at May 10, 99 01:22:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >For historical notes, Touch Communicatios implemented an ISO stack on > >on a 3com programmable NIC around 1987 --- I was part of Touch > >Communications. > > Any ideas what happened to that NIC? > It is my impression that chips that offload functions from the CPU seem > to be gaining some momentum. Probably because of advances in technology > and reduced cost of manufacturing such chips. Ungermann-Bass did exactly the same thing for TCP/IP on a card on SCO Xenix 2.x. I think I have DECNet stack on 170k floppy around somewhere, too. DEC did a lot of similar stuff with their MicroVAX II Q-Bus boards. I have a 3COM board for a PS/2 that has an 80186 on it for the same purpose. This is far from a new idea; the real question: do they have FreeBSD drivers for the thing? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 11: 0:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159FC159AE for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.217]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA246F; Mon, 10 May 1999 20:00:02 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00578; Mon, 10 May 1999 20:00:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795F9@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:00:03 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Ladavac Marino Subject: RE: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-99 Ladavac Marino wrote: >> I'd be willing to pay for the stuff he's smoking. >> > [ML] Oh no, someone has restore(8)d the wrong tape--the one > with jesus.pl on it :) Think ye finally got rid of jordan.pl... *sigh* =P --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 11: 2:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D206150BE for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:02:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13027; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:02:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd012862; Mon May 10 11:02:16 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03959; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:02:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905101802.LAA03959@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] To: paul@originative.co.uk Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:02:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "paul@originative.co.uk" at May 10, 99 10:27:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Ok, what the hell does fairings mean? My dictionary says it's related to > streamlining but it's use in these groups doesn't always seem to match that? Jordan? 8-) 8-). He meant to type "fairness". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 11:18:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F026150BE for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:18:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.217]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3281; Mon, 10 May 1999 20:16:16 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00673; Mon, 10 May 1999 20:16:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:16:17 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: John Baldwin Subject: RE: Server Uptimes project... Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-99 John Baldwin wrote: > On the soapbox... > > A while back someone announced the "Server Uptimes" page at > http://uptime.hexon.cx. It doesn't do uptime on uptime, correct? That would make it even better if one would have to take the box offline for some hardware maintenance. Btw, my box daemon got assigned hostID 666, coincedence? =P --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 11:38:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8054414ED1 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26899; Mon, 10 May 1999 13:38:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA07052; Mon, 10 May 1999 13:38:21 -0500 Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id NAA21071; Mon, 10 May 1999 13:38:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:38:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199905101838.NAA21071@free.pcs> To: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >> Ok, what the hell does fairings mean? My dictionary says it's related to >> streamlining but it's use in these groups doesn't always seem to match that? > >Jordan? > >8-) 8-). > >He meant to type "fairness". For clarification to other confused readers: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/cgi-bin/newsread?24752 http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/cgi-bin/newsread?24772 -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 11:59:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BC914D9B for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:59:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 10 May 1999 19:57:00 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:56:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Lemon [mailto:jlemon@americantv.com] > Sent: 10 May 1999 19:38 > To: tlambert@primenet.com; chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] > > > In article > com> you write: > >> Ok, what the hell does fairings mean? My dictionary says > it's related to > >> streamlining but it's use in these groups doesn't always > seem to match that? > > > >Jordan? > > > >8-) 8-). > > > >He meant to type "fairness". > > For clarification to other confused readers: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/cgi-bin/newsread?24752 > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/cgi-bin/newsread?24772 > Ohh, I remember that article now! I'm sure I've seen fairings being used in commit messages recently, have we adopted it as part of the FreeBSD jargon, what does it mean in that context? While I'm on this subject, what the hell does GC stand for? It's used when things get deleted. Paul (who seems to be a bit behind the times on the acronym/jargon front) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 14:56:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jumping-spider.aracnet.com (jumping-spider.aracnet.com [205.159.88.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7EC315269 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 14:56:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ctapang@easystreet.com) Received: from apex (216-99-199-225.cust.aracnet.com [216.99.199.225]) by jumping-spider.aracnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA15722 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 14:56:37 -0700 Message-ID: <002801be9b30$44b2b310$0d787880@apex.tapang> From: "Carlos C. Tapang" To: Subject: Linux news from Client Server News Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:58:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The first item is of interest to FreeBSD. Somebody should suggest to Mindcraft to include FreeBSD in the "Death Match". The last item is about Ken Thompson thrashing Linux. --Carlos Linux Watch: Mindcraft Proposes Linux-NT Death Match; Microsoft Accepts the Challenge Mindcraft, in an attempt to salvage its reputation after publishing a Microsoft-funded test in which NT trashed Linux, has invited Linus Torvalds, Red Hat or anyone they choose to try to prove that Linux can outperform NT Server in what it's calling an "Open Benchmark" shootout. Microsoft has already said it will risk the challenge. The event, if it comes off, could be way more fun than anything this side of the antitrust trial. It's put up or shut up time, boys. In the controversial tests paid for by Microsoft Mindcraft declared NT to be 3.7x faster than Linux as a web server and to have 2.5x the performance as a file server. The fact that Microsoft funded the tests and that the admission was buried on page 16 of the 20-page final report (CSN No 296) set the Linux community off. The implication, and in some cases outright accusation, was that Mindcraft rigged the tests for its patron and played pawn to the mighty Microsoft marketing machine. "Mindcraft's honesty and name have been impugned," the testing house said, citing interviews with Torvalds in publications ranging from ABCnews.com to Linux Today and Salon. In particular, the Linux community was outraged by statements in Mindcraft's report that it had attempted to find the best ways to tune Linux using the standard forms of Linux support - web sites, newsgroup pleas for help and the like. It said the response was negligible. In what Mindcraft now calls an "Open Benchmark Invitation," it says that it's willing to have Torvalds choose anyone he wants to help it tune Linux, the Samba middleware and Apache web server used in its benchmarks. Red Hat, likewise, was invited to send anyone it wants to serve as Linux experts. The Linux experts can load the software and run the tests themselves if they wish. Microsoft, it said, is welcome to send its NT experts to do the same. It also carefully stated in bold text in its invitation that Mindcraft will bear all of its own expenses for the new tests, and that it will run them "at any mutually agreeable test site." Microsoft seems pretty confident. It's volunteered to turn over its own test labs for the shoot-out, the same facility where Mindcraft made its original and now-notorious findings. That location was a bit of an eye opener unknown before. The lab offer pretty much answers the question of whether Redmond plans to have its hotshot tuning experts on hand. The only direct response from the Linux community so far has come from developer Jeremy Allison, said to be the brains behind Samba, who refused to participate unless Mindcraft tests using NT clients rather than the Win9x clients it's been using so far. In an e-mail to Mindcraft he said that Samba works better with NT clients, NT better with Win9x. Mindcraft also said that it's re-run the tests on its own using Linux tuning tips that Torvalds and open source people provided. It refuses to divulge the new results until after the new tests are run, and added that the shootout tests will be run on the same hardware that it used for its own re-test. Mindcraft has set strict ground rules for the tests, which are published on its web site, but has given Linux three chance to prove its case. The Linux world gets to run a set of benchmarks using the tunes, patches and bug fixes that Mindcraft had at its disposal when it ran the second set of tests. Then it can add whatever patches and bug fixes it would like from either the Red Hat or the open source kernel.org web sites as long as they were available on April 20 when Mindcraft started its tests, but it still has to be the Linux 2.2.6 that Mindcraft tested. Finally, the Linux experts can run a set of optional tests using any Linux kernel, Apache version, Samba version, patches and bug fixes posted on the web at the start of the Open Benchmark test. There's no mention of whether Microsoft is allowed or even wants to test Windows 2000 beta 3. Linux Watch: Linuxcare Gets El Primo Backer Kleiner Perkins, the famed VC, has made its Linux bet, putting its money into Linuxcare, the San Francisco-based Linux support house. Unfortunately, nobody's saying how big the bet is but they've imported ex-IBMer Fernand Sarrat to be CEO. Sarrat has lately been at Cylink, the security and cryptography firm as president and CEO. Before that he was at IBM for 23 years, lastly at general manager, network centric computing marketing and services, which was heavy on Internet-delivered solutions. Former Linuxcare CEO Arthur Tyde has given way to Sarrat and will stay on as executive VP, focusing on operations and external relations. Kleiner along with Sand Hill Group, who's coughing up fewer bucks, are providing Linuxcare's first round. Kleiner is putting its general partner Ted Schlein on the Linuxcare board. Linux Watch: Unix Co-Creator Trashes Linux Ken Thompson, the co-creator of Unix, thinks Linux will be a short-term phenomenon. He calls the operating system "unreliable" and sees its surge in popularity as more an anti-Microsoft backlash than anything else. Thompson, still a researcher at Lucent's Bell Labs where Unix was born, lambasts Linux in the current issue of the IEEE's online magazine, Computer. "I view Linux as something that's not Microsoft - a backlash against Microsoft, no more and no less. I don't think it will be very successful in the long run," he told Computer. Linux creator Linus Torvalds called Thompson "extremely misguided." Thompson also questions how effective the open source concept is."I've looked at the source and there are pieces that are good and pieces that are not. A whole bunch of random people have contributed to this source, and the quality varies drastically," he said. "My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse. In a non-PC environment, it just won't hold up. If you're using it on a single box, that's one thing. But if you want to use Linux in firewalls, gateways, embedded systems and so on, it has a long way to go." Carlos C. Tapang http://www.genericwindows.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 15: 7:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C76BE15297 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 15:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 10 May 1999 15:07:38 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Carlos C. Tapang" , Subject: RE: Linux news from Client Server News Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:07:38 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be9b31$83fd7040$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <002801be9b30$44b2b310$0d787880@apex.tapang> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Thompson also questions how effective the open source concept is."I've > looked at the source and there are pieces that are good and > pieces that are > not. A whole bunch of random people have contributed to this > source, and the > quality varies drastically," he said. I've look at the source code to numerous large programs, including operating systems and software from other categories entirely, oper source and proprietary code, from large companies and small companies. The quotation above is pretty much equally true of all of them. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 15:27:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A020614BDA for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 15:27:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA57183; Mon, 10 May 1999 23:09:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:09:00 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Message-ID: <19990510230900.A56986@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from paul@originative.co.uk on Mon, May 10, 1999 at 07:56:51PM +0100 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 10, 1999 at 07:56:51PM +0100, paul@originative.co.uk wrote: > I'm sure I've seen fairings being used in commit messages recently, have we > adopted it as part of the FreeBSD jargon, what does it mean in that context? > While I'm on this subject, what the hell does GC stand for? It's used when > things get deleted. GC? Garbage Collection, I would've thought. N -- There's some milk in the fridge about to go off. . . and there it goes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 16: 9:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7113C14C9A for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 16:09:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02884; Mon, 10 May 1999 19:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08587; Mon, 10 May 1999 19:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:09:56 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: RE: Server Uptimes project... Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-99 Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 10-May-99 John Baldwin wrote: >> On the soapbox... >> >> A while back someone announced the "Server Uptimes" page at >> http://uptime.hexon.cx. > > It doesn't do uptime on uptime, correct? It subtracts the sysctl variable boottime.tv_sec from the current time, so it is the actual uptime. If you go offline and come back on it will use the uptime from your box, not how long you've been online. > That would make it even better if one would have to take the box offline > for some hardware maintenance. > > Btw, my box daemon got assigned hostID 666, coincedence? =P FreeBSD's now in second place I'm happy to report with 57 machines. NT is in 3rd with 50. We also have the second highest average uptime behind NetBSD. > --- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl > The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project > Network/Security Specialist > *BSD: Accept no limitations... --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 17:43:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6165F15597 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 17:43:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10gzof-000BCV-00; Tue, 11 May 1999 00:50:33 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:50:33 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: John Baldwin Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Server Uptimes project... Message-ID: <19990511005033.A43046@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > FreeBSD's now in second place I'm happy to report with 57 machines. NT is in > 3rd with 50. We also have the second highest average uptime behind NetBSD. I'd add my home machine, but I can't see an easy way to make it work with dialup machines. It seems to want to connect to the uptime server every minute or so. Has anyone got it working on a dialup machine? Perhaps I should just try and see what happens, there's nothing to lose. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 17:49: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com (as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com [206.27.167.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3D615CE4 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 17:48:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA12535; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:42:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:42:20 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: conrads@neosoft.com From: Conrad Sabatier To: Pat Lynch Subject: Re: Stupidity subjects box to *severe* stress test -- FreeBSD passes with flying colors Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-99 Pat Lynch wrote: > I made the same mistake once... running tripwire at 1 am, I ran 60 copies > of tripwire, when I woke up in the morning, and logged in remotely, it > was a little sluggish, and the load was up to 134 or something like > that... > > (ok, a *little* sluggish is an understatement) > > but I was able to kill all the tripwire processes (took me 25 minutes) "killall -9 tripwire" took 25 minutes??? I did a killall on cron, cvsup, make, and had things back to normal in no time. Just try *that* on a Winblows box (of course, the Winblows box would have died a horrible death long before that anyway). FreeBSD never ceases to amaze me, I tell ya. -- Conrad Sabatier Anyone who hates Dogs and Kids Can't be All Bad. -- W. C. Fields To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 17:54:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E278815557 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 17:54:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-254.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.254]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA03095 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 19:54:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA68892 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 19:09:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905110009.TAA68892@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Ethernet card with TCP stack built in In-reply-to: Message from Terry Lambert of "Mon, 10 May 1999 17:56:56 -0000." <199905101756.KAA03644@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:09:03 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > This is far from a new idea; the real question: do they have FreeBSD > drivers for the thing? As I recall the high-end SGI servers have a CPU on the I/O board to offload ethernet and SCSI chores. The IO3 board in my old 4D3x0's had a 68030. Was told at boot time this CPU initializes the whole system, does the initial hardware inventory, then finally boots a MIPS CPU to finish the process. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 18: 0:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B014715DC4 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 18:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13535; Mon, 10 May 1999 21:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20008; Mon, 10 May 1999 21:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990511005033.A43046@scientia.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:00:09 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Ben Smithurst Subject: Re: Server Uptimes project... Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-99 Ben Smithurst wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > >> FreeBSD's now in second place I'm happy to report with 57 machines. NT is >> in >> 3rd with 50. We also have the second highest average uptime behind NetBSD. > > I'd add my home machine, but I can't see an easy way to make it work > with dialup machines. It seems to want to connect to the uptime > server every minute or so. Has anyone got it working on a dialup > machine? Perhaps I should just try and see what happens, there's nothing > to lose. In the configuration file you can tell it how many seconds to update. By default it is 60, I have mine set to 600 (5 minutes ) personally, but you can set it to be up to 10 minutes. (See the interval line). Granted, that's not going to do you that much good. It says that if you update more than 10 minutes apart you won't appear in the list, but maybe your stats will still count for the totals, I'm not sure. I'll try and ask the author. > -- > Ben Smithurst > ben@scientia.demon.co.uk --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 22:30:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B0B155C3 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 22:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from [158.152.46.40] (helo=ragnet.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10h57S-0003V9-0A; Tue, 11 May 1999 05:30:19 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10guzA-0002pN-00; Mon, 10 May 1999 19:41:04 +0100 Content-Length: 684 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:41:04 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: Pat Lynch Subject: Re: Stupidity subjects box to *severe* stress test -- FreeBSD pa Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Conrad Sabatier Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On a similar note the latest version of tkcvs (a GUI front end to CVS) has a nasty bug/feature. If you don't have any selected files and press on of the GUI buttons it invokes the command recursivley on files in the current directory...Really bad if you happen to run diff and launch a lot of TkDiff's... I tend to go and have a cup of tea until X sorts itself out and then kill them all. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 10 22:41: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706D015852 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 22:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem23.masternet.it [194.184.65.33]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id HAA07111 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 07:41:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990511073323.01730160@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:38:53 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: RE: Server Uptimes project... In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10/05/99, you wrote: >FreeBSD's now in second place I'm happy to report with 57 machines. NT is in >3rd with 50. We also have the second highest average uptime behind NetBSD. Uhm... be carefull registering hosts which have not high uptimes. They lower the average :-) I have a lot of FreeBSD box here, but I have the bad habits to make world every day or two (both 4.0 and 3.2-BETA) so my uptimes are really low and I don't won't to register them :-) But I'd like to have the server for my intranet , is it available ? Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 0:17:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E9B15C57 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 00:17:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id JAA27162; Tue, 11 May 1999 09:17:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08573; Tue, 11 May 1999 09:17:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:17:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: "Carlos C. Tapang" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux news from Client Server News In-Reply-To: <002801be9b30$44b2b310$0d787880@apex.tapang> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The first item is of interest to FreeBSD. Somebody should suggest to > Mindcraft to include FreeBSD in the "Death Match". The last item is about > Ken Thompson thrashing Linux. This looks to be one of the best PR opportunities so far. If core could afford the time to raise to the challenge, I believe we have a pretty good chance. In any case, whether we win or not, we will be on the map. - Marius - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 0:52: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6488614C9A for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 00:51:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA73849; Tue, 11 May 1999 00:51:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 May 1999 19:56:51 BST." Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:51:42 -0700 Message-ID: <73845.926409102@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm sure I've seen fairings being used in commit messages recently, have we > adopted it as part of the FreeBSD jargon, what does it mean in that context? It's thrown out in discussion whenever a completely nonsensical argument in one's favor(?) is called for, I.E. at the end of a really long thread for which the outcome is no longer even cared about since everyone is now so sick of it or in rebuttal to another nonsensical argument ("Change the loader to look for /kernel.pl? What about fairings?"). > While I'm on this subject, what the hell does GC stand for? It's used when > things get deleted. Garbage Collect. Another man sadly deprived of LISP in his university CS curriculum, I see. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 0:58:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4AF14F8C for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 00:58:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03543; Tue, 11 May 1999 17:27:44 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <73845.926409102@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:27:44 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, paul@originative.co.uk Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-May-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > While I'm on this subject, what the hell does GC stand for? It's used when > > things get deleted. > Garbage Collect. Another man sadly deprived of LISP in his university > CS curriculum, I see. :-) Hey, you CAN get C GC's ya know.. OK, I'll run away while all the C coders have gone blind at the thought. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 0:59: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC46714F8C for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 00:59:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA21517; Tue, 11 May 1999 18:09:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199905110809.SAA21517@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: <73845.926409102@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "May 11, 1999 0:51:42 am" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:09:56 +1000 (EST) Cc: paul@originative.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm sure I've seen fairings being used in commit messages recently, have we > > adopted it as part of the FreeBSD jargon, what does it mean in that context? > > It's thrown out in discussion whenever a completely nonsensical > argument in one's favor(?) is called for, I.E. at the end of a really > long thread for which the outcome is no longer even cared about since > everyone is now so sick of it or in rebuttal to another nonsensical > argument ("Change the loader to look for /kernel.pl? What about fairings?"). Well for those of us who have bikes with fairings, it does mean something, just not in the context used on FreeBSD lists. So I ask, what about the fairing on the Hayabusa?!! 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 1:15:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318FF15120 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 01:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA11933; Tue, 11 May 1999 01:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 01:15:15 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: May San Francisco BAFUG Meeting (Special Guest) Message-ID: <19990511011515.A11910@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- San Francisco BAFUG -- *** Special Guest *** The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, May 13th. This months meeting will be held at The Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> John Plevyak, chief scientist in charge of the FreeBSD project at Inktomi (www.inktomi.com), will be our special guest. John has agreed to speak on Inktomi's web caching software and their port to FreeBSD. ==> James Buszard-Welcher, a long time friend of BAFUG and sponsor of our meetings at The Reef, has accepted a position at a start-up in Berkeley. We wish him well. Unfortunely this leaves BAFUG without a sponsor at The Reef. The upshot of this means that the May meeting will be our last at this venerable site. The search is on to find BAFUG a new home in San Francisco. Anyone wishing to help in the search can contact either Josef Grosch (jgrosch@mooseriver.com) or Crystalle Cota (cary25@hotmail.com) for further info. ==> Josef Grosch will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on May 8th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Cow Place in Daly City. This Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). We will also have an Install-A-Thon at the Oakland Convention Center on May 15th. See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Due to a schedule conflict with the Usenix Technical Conference in Monterey, there will not be a June BAFUG meeting in San Francisco. Our next meeting will be July 8th. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at The Reef in San Francisco. The Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.reef.com http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before May 13th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 1:25:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A9515C3A for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 01:25:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA10645; Tue, 11 May 1999 01:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: "Carlos C. Tapang" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux news from Client Server News In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 May 1999 09:17:37 +0200." Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 01:25:45 -0700 Message-ID: <10637.926411145@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This looks to be one of the best PR opportunities so far. If core could > afford the time to raise to the challenge, I believe we have a pretty Not that simple. Let's start with a simple question: Who do we call? A name and a phone number will do fine. :) - Jordan P.S. People recommending that I look up Microsoft or Mindcraft in the phone book or that I ask Linus to recommend us for the tests as a personal favor will be briefly laughed at and their message deleted without comment. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 1:43:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD45215940 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 01:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA23317 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 18:13:45 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA70316 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 11 May 1999 18:13:44 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:13:44 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Europe says yes to spam Message-ID: <19990511181344.R65965@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just saw this on the aussie-isp list. Greg ----- Forwarded message from Terence ----- > Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:21:34 +1000 (EST) > To: aussie-isp@aussie.net > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: aussie-isp@aussie.net > > > [More idiot politicians...] > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:29:33 +1000 (EST) > From: David Bromage > To: cauce-aus@corvu.com > Subject: Europe says yes to spam > > The European Parliament has voted to legalise spam. The European Internet > Service Providers Association (EuroISPA) campaigned against the idea, a UK > MEP made a passionate speech to ban junk email and nobody spoke in favour of > it. Despite this, it was passed 266 votes to 137. A clause to ban the > harvesting of email addresses from newsgroups and web sites was removed > before the bill was passed. > > Net users are required to register with national opt-out lists if they do > not wish to receive junk email. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 1:45:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc8.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0284315940 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 01:45:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.90.6]) by ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04659; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:43:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tg@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA28337; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:43:40 +0200 (CEST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Marius Bendiksen , "Carlos C. Tapang" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux news from Client Server News References: <10637.926411145@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 11 May 1999 10:43:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Tue, 11 May 1999 01:25:45 -0700" Message-ID: <87hfpk808z.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.34/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > This looks to be one of the best PR opportunities so far. If core could > > afford the time to raise to the challenge, I believe we have a pretty > > Not that simple. Let's start with a simple question: Who do we call? > A name and a phone number will do fine. :) Well, you could simply look up Microsoft or Mindcraft in the phone book. Or maybe you could ask Linus to recommend us for the tests as a personal favor. > - Jordan > > P.S. People recommending that I look up Microsoft or Mindcraft in > the phone book or that I ask Linus to recommend us for the tests > as a personal favor will be briefly laughed at and their message > deleted without comment. :) Oh. Never mind then. tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 2: 4:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D77F14F1D for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 02:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10h8Sk-000Lfz-0B; Tue, 11 May 1999 09:04:31 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA02308; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:04:25 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA04529; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:04:24 +0100 Message-ID: <3737F24F.70BE6FCA@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:03:11 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam References: <19990511181344.R65965@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Just saw this on the aussie-isp list. > > Greg > > ----- Forwarded message from Terence ----- > > > Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:21:34 +1000 (EST) > > To: aussie-isp@aussie.net > > Precedence: bulk > > Reply-To: aussie-isp@aussie.net > > > > > > [More idiot politicians...] > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:29:33 +1000 (EST) > > From: David Bromage > > To: cauce-aus@corvu.com > > Subject: Europe says yes to spam > > > > The European Parliament has voted to legalise spam. The European Internet > > Service Providers Association (EuroISPA) campaigned against the idea, a UK > > MEP made a passionate speech to ban junk email and nobody spoke in favour of > > it. Despite this, it was passed 266 votes to 137. A clause to ban the > > harvesting of email addresses from newsgroups and web sites was removed > > before the bill was passed. > > :-(. Mind you, about 90% of the spam I receive comes from the USA so I'm not sure what good it would have done had they voted the other way. Many (most?) of this junk e-mail includes a statement that under some Bill or other it is not classed as spam. Obviously the US legislators use a different definition of spam/junk e-mail to those of us in the real world. There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal (something related to copyright IIRC). > > Net users are required to register with national opt-out lists if they do > > not wish to receive junk email. > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 2:10:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B0414D29 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 02:07:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA30104; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:07:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: paul@originative.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] References: <73845.926409102@zippy.cdrom.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 May 1999 11:07:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Tue, 11 May 1999 00:51:42 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > I'm sure I've seen fairings being used in commit messages recently, have we > > adopted it as part of the FreeBSD jargon, what does it mean in that context? > It's thrown out in discussion whenever a completely nonsensical > argument in one's favor(?) is called for, I.E. at the end of a really > long thread for which the outcome is no longer even cared about since > everyone is now so sick of it or in rebuttal to another nonsensical > argument ("Change the loader to look for /kernel.pl? What about fairings?"). Also, see section 12.12 of the FAQ. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 2:14:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9070915C6E; Tue, 11 May 1999 02:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id CAA09990; Tue, 11 May 1999 02:13:28 -0700 (PDT) From: tedm@toybox.placo.com Received: from toybox.placo.com (tedsbox [192.168.1.20]) by toybox.placo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA27435; Tue, 11 May 1999 01:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: by toybox.placo.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.14/(3.0sos) id AA0122; Tue, 11 May 99 01:35:56 -0700 Message-Id: <9905110835.AA0122@toybox.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 11 May 99 01:27:28 -0800 To: "rick hamell" , pdx-freebsd@toybox.placo.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: May Portland FreeBSD Users Group Announcement X-Mailer: Ultimedia Mail/2 Lite, IBM T. J. Watson Research Center Content-Id: <46_99_1_926400448> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have one question for the attendees: I can do two kinds of presentations on this: 1) Typical D&P show with stuff already set up and running - just a more theoretical lecture kind of presentation with opportunity to look and touch the stuff. 2) A more hands-on approach, with the assumption that everyone will be dragging in their boxes to attempt to get PPP running on them - the focus will be to get it running on as many systems as possible. I don't want a situation where I go in expecting to do #1, and everyone else expects #2, or vis-versa. Also, if everyone says they want #2 - then you better have your machine, monitor, keyboard, and all cords and accessories in tow when you come or I'll send you back home for them. :-) Ted PS Don't suggest doing both - there isn't going to be enough time. //--- forwarded letter ------------------------------------------------------- MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 08 May 99 16:11:12 -0700 From: "rick hamell" To: pdx-freebsd@toybox.placo.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: May Portland FreeBSD Users Group Announcement The Portland FreeBSD Users Group has been scheduled for the third thursday of each month. For May this is going to be the 20th. This month's and probally next months location is the same as the Unix (Linux) Users Group, the PSU Miller Library in rm. 160 at 6:30PM This months topic will be hopefully be PPP by Ted Middlestat. If anyone else is interested in a speaking on a topic, please let me know. :) I'm planning on doing the pizza thing, so a RSVP to let me know how many people are coming would be apprecited. :) Rick ---- "Religion exists because man can't belive that he's nothing more then a random accident." http://www.grendal.org //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Ted Mittelstaedt - tedm@toybox.placo.com // // Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 3:15:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2F4159A9 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 03:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:12:59 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:12:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Jordan K. Hubbard [mailto:jkh@zippy.cdrom.com] > Sent: 11 May 1999 08:52 > To: paul@originative.co.uk > Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] > > > > I'm sure I've seen fairings being used in commit messages > recently, have we > > adopted it as part of the FreeBSD jargon, what does it mean > in that context? > > It's thrown out in discussion whenever a completely nonsensical > argument in one's favor(?) is called for, I.E. at the end of a really > long thread for which the outcome is no longer even cared about since > everyone is now so sick of it or in rebuttal to another nonsensical > argument ("Change the loader to look for /kernel.pl? What > about fairings?"). Ahh, right, well that makes a whole lot more sense now :-) > > While I'm on this subject, what the hell does GC stand for? > It's used when > > things get deleted. > > Garbage Collect. Another man sadly deprived of LISP in his university > CS curriculum, I see. :-) Unfortunately I'm not so young as to have avoided the joys of LISP, although I only paid enough attention to it to pass the course at the time. Do they still teach it these days? I should have sussed GC, it's obvious now someone's pointed it out to me, fairings I think I can be excused for :-). Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 4: 5:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gvr.gvr.org (gvr.gvr.org [194.151.74.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B4414CAA; Tue, 11 May 1999 04:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from guido@gvr.org) Received: by gvr.gvr.org (Postfix, from userid 657) id 068625AF0; Mon, 10 May 1999 19:39:39 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19990510193939.A18900@gvr.org> Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:39:39 +0200 From: Guido van Rooij To: Pat Lynch , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Thu, May 06, 1999 at 11:34:48AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I dont realy care ;-) -Guido To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 4:10:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from terror.hungry.com (terror.hungry.com [199.181.107.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BE0614DE5 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 04:10:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@hungry.com) Received: (qmail 29910 invoked by uid 0); 11 May 1999 11:10:31 -0000 Received: from siren.hungry.com (undead@199.181.107.129) by terror.hungry.com with SMTP; 11 May 1999 11:10:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 10254 invoked by uid 507); 11 May 1999 11:11:40 -0000 From: Faried Nawaz To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Reply-To: Faried Nawaz References: Date: 11 May 1999 04:11:40 -0700 In-Reply-To: paul@originative.co.uk's message of "11 May 1999 03:15:23 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org paul@originative.co.uk writes: Unfortunately I'm not so young as to have avoided the joys of LISP, although I only paid enough attention to it to pass the course at the time. Do they still teach it these days? Yes. My Computing Languages course was taught with Scheme (a member of the Lisp family), and was by far my most enjoyable course in college. Scheme is an elegant language for studying different programming paradigms. In fact, I strongly recommend this book: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, 2/e I had Prolog in my AI course. I understand that the course was previously taught with Prolog and Lisp, but two languages turned out to be too much for the students. By the time I took that course I was already familiar with many variants of Lisp, though. faried. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 5:56:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8AD14BD8 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 05:56:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cmcurtin@cis.ohio-state.edu) Received: from gold.cis.ohio-state.edu (cmcurtin@gold.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.112.16]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA28024; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:56:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cmcurtin@localhost) by gold.cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA19004; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:56:35 -0400 (EDT) To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] References: X-Face: L"IcL.b%SDN]0Kql2b`e.}+i05V9fi\yX#H1+Xl)3!+n/3?5`%-SA-HDgPk9uTk<3dv^J5DCgal)-E{`zN#*o6F|y>r)\< Date: 11 May 1999 08:56:35 -0400 In-Reply-To: paul@originative.co.uk's message of "Mon, 10 May 1999 19:56:51 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> On Mon, 10 May 1999 19:56:51 +0100, paul@originative.co.uk said: paul> While I'm on this subject, what paul> the hell does GC stand for? Ack! http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/frames/GC.html (Learn Lisp. (Really. (I'm serious. (Trust me. (It rocks all over.))))) -- Matt Curtin cmcurtin@interhack.net http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 6: 1:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DC814C9C for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 06:01:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cmcurtin@cis.ohio-state.edu) Received: from gold.cis.ohio-state.edu (cmcurtin@gold.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.112.16]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28669; Tue, 11 May 1999 09:01:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cmcurtin@localhost) by gold.cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA19923; Tue, 11 May 1999 09:01:20 -0400 (EDT) To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] References: X-Face: L"IcL.b%SDN]0Kql2b`e.}+i05V9fi\yX#H1+Xl)3!+n/3?5`%-SA-HDgPk9uTk<3dv^J5DCgal)-E{`zN#*o6F|y>r)\< Date: 11 May 1999 09:01:19 -0400 In-Reply-To: paul@originative.co.uk's message of "Tue, 11 May 1999 11:12:58 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> On Tue, 11 May 1999 11:12:58 +0100, paul@originative.co.uk said: [I see I'm a bit late jumping into the thread.] paul> Unfortunately I'm not so young as to have avoided the joys of paul> LISP, although I only paid enough attention to it to pass the paul> course at the time. Clearly you didn't pay enough attention to see its beauty and elegance. Shame on you. :-) paul> Do they still teach it these days? Oh yes. http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~cmcurtin/cis459.31/ -- Matt Curtin cmcurtin@interhack.net http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 6: 5:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE72714F90 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 06:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:08:21 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FA@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: 'Matt Curtin' , paul@originative.co.uk Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:03:45 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Curtin [SMTP:cmcurtin@interhack.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 3:01 PM > To: paul@originative.co.uk > Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] > [ML] On subject of Lisp > Clearly you didn't pay enough attention to see its beauty and > elegance. Shame on you. :-) > [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal with nail clippings thrown in." 'Nuff said :) /Marino To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 6:14:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pops.interhack.net (pops.interhack.net [209.190.37.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1469F15951 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 06:14:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cmcurtin@strangepork.interhack.net) Received: from strangepork.interhack.net (strangepork.interhack.net [192.168.1.12]) by pops.interhack.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/spamkiller) with ESMTP id KAA20987; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cmcurtin@localhost) by strangepork.interhack.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA02155; Tue, 11 May 1999 09:22:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Matt Curtin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14136.12028.270670.384878@strangepork.interhack.net> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:22:04 -0400 (EDT) To: Ladavac Marino Cc: paul@originative.co.uk, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FA@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> References: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FA@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> X-Mailer: VM 6.70 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid X-Attribution: Matvey X-URL: http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/ X-Face: L"IcL.b%SDN]0Kql2b`e.}+i05V9fi\yX#H1+Xl)3!+n/3?5`%-SA-HDgPk9uTk<3dv^J5DCgal)-E{`zN#*o6F|y>r)\<>>>> On Tue, 11 May 1999 15:03:45 +0200, Ladavac Marino said: Marino> Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of Marino> oatmeal with nail clippings thrown in." With all due respect to Larry and Perl, if there is one point where Perl has no legs on which to stand, it is visual appeal and readability. (And I don't want to hear the "Perl is readable if you write it that way" argument--I use it myself all the time. There are cases where it doesn't hold true. For example, if you're using a complex data structure, say a hash of a hash of a hash of a hash of a hash of a hash, things get a bit strange syntactically, especially if you're also dealing with references.) -- Matt Curtin cmcurtin@interhack.net http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 6:45: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE5B14FC0 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 06:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA15943 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:55:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905111355.IAA15943@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.44); 11 May 99 08:44:51 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.44); 11 May 99 08:44:37 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: FreeBSD Chat Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:44:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <3737F24F.70BE6FCA@uk.radan.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.10) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 May 99, at 10:03, Mark Ovens wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > Just saw this on the aussie-isp list. > > > The European Parliament has voted to legalise spam. The European > > > Internet Service Providers Association (EuroISPA) campaigned against > > > the idea, a UK MEP made a passionate speech to ban junk email and > > > nobody spoke in favour of it. Despite this, it was passed 266 votes to > > > 137. A clause to ban the harvesting of email addresses from newsgroups > > > and web sites was removed before the bill was passed. > :-(. Mind you, about 90% of the spam I receive comes from the USA so > I'm not sure what good it would have done had they voted the other > way. Many (most?) of this junk e-mail includes a statement that under some > Bill or other it is not classed as spam. Obviously the US legislators use > a different definition of spam/junk e-mail to those of us in the real > world. Not really. The law that is referred to hasn't been passed, so it isn't a law. At least not yet. Also, the law, if passed, prohibits forging addresses and requires that the spam has a *WORKING* opt- out mechanism. All the ones I've seen have neither. Their comment about being in compliance with the law are as specious as those made by many anti-spam people who threaten to charge spammers service fees. In the end, neither has a firm connection to reality. > There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make > the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal (something > related to copyright IIRC). *sigh* We may need to have a "stupid politician" contest. Of course, if we notify the honorees, they might consider it a compliment. However, based on my limited knowledge of copyright laws, I would think that if the material provider approved caching of their material, it would become a "fair use". As I recall, there is a HTML flag that indicates whether a page may be cached. So the furor may be a "non-issue". The only big issue here is that copyright laws are often enforceable by international treaty.... so some poor net-admin on the other side of the planet could be hassled for no good reason. > > > Net users are required to register with national opt-out lists if they > > > do not wish to receive junk email. If it worked, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Karaoke is a Japanese word meaning "tone deaf". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 6:59:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6258915127 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 06:59:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id PAA07556; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:59:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10841; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:59:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:59:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Carlos C. Tapang" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux news from Client Server News In-Reply-To: <10637.926411145@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Call +1 (408) 364 - 2860, and ask for Bruce Weiner. --- Marius Bendiksen, ScanCall AS On Tue, 11 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > This looks to be one of the best PR opportunities so far. If core could > > afford the time to raise to the challenge, I believe we have a pretty > > Not that simple. Let's start with a simple question: Who do we call? > A name and a phone number will do fine. :) > > - Jordan > > P.S. People recommending that I look up Microsoft or Mindcraft in > the phone book or that I ask Linus to recommend us for the tests > as a personal favor will be briefly laughed at and their message > deleted without comment. :) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 7: 3:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay03.netaddress.usa.net (relay03.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.183]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54EE4159B1 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 07:03:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 922 invoked from network); 11 May 1999 14:03:39 -0000 Received: from www0s.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.48) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 11 May 1999 14:03:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 19130 invoked by uid 60001); 11 May 1999 14:03:38 -0000 Message-ID: <19990511140338.19129.qmail@www0s.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.48 by www0s via web-mailer(M3.0.0.118) on Tue May 11 14:03:37 GMT 1999 Date: 11 May 99 07:03:37 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Jordan K.Hubbard , Philip Kizer Subject: Re: [Re: Charles Henrich a Star? ] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.0.0.118) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > Is there a press release yet for that one to which we can point peopl= e? > = > A press release requires a willing press. :) So far, we haven't had > much luck there. > = Maybe someone has asked this already. But what about using "Business Wire(tm)"? --- IN that context, it is the BSD that should be considered, not the prefix. http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?34858 ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 7: 8:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911DC15127 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 07:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10hDCS-000BnU-0B; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:08:01 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA03791; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:07:53 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA11872; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:07:21 +0100 Message-ID: <37383950.AE14A41D@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:06:08 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam References: <199905111355.IAA15943@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Avery wrote: > > On 11 May 99, at 10:03, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > > > Just saw this on the aussie-isp list. > > > > > The European Parliament has voted to legalise spam. The European > > > > Internet Service Providers Association (EuroISPA) campaigned against > > > > the idea, a UK MEP made a passionate speech to ban junk email and > > > > nobody spoke in favour of it. Despite this, it was passed 266 votes to > > > > 137. A clause to ban the harvesting of email addresses from newsgroups > > > > and web sites was removed before the bill was passed. > > > :-(. Mind you, about 90% of the spam I receive comes from the USA so > > I'm not sure what good it would have done had they voted the other > > way. Many (most?) of this junk e-mail includes a statement that under some > > Bill or other it is not classed as spam. Obviously the US legislators use > > a different definition of spam/junk e-mail to those of us in the real > > world. > > Not really. The law that is referred to hasn't been passed, so it > isn't a law. At least not yet. Also, the law, if passed, prohibits > forging addresses and requires that the spam has a *WORKING* opt- > out mechanism. All the ones I've seen have neither. > > Their comment about being in compliance with the law are as > specious as those made by many anti-spam people who threaten to > charge spammers service fees. In the end, neither has a firm > connection to reality. > > > There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make > > the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal (something > > related to copyright IIRC). > > *sigh* We may need to have a "stupid politician" contest. Nah, there would be too many winners ;-) > Of course, if we notify the honorees, they might consider > it a compliment. > > However, based on my limited knowledge of copyright laws, I would > think that if the material provider approved caching of their > material, it would become a "fair use". As I recall, there is a HTML > flag that indicates whether a page may be cached. So the furor may > be a "non-issue". The only big issue here is that copyright laws are > often enforceable by international treaty.... so some poor net-admin > on the other side of the planet could be hassled for no good reason. > > > > > Net users are required to register with national opt-out lists if they > > > > do not wish to receive junk email. > > If it worked, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. > Ditto > Mike > > ====================================================================== > Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com > (409)-842-2942 (work) > ICQ: 16241692 > > * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * > > A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: > Karaoke is a Japanese word meaning "tone deaf". > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 7:27:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3F615DB6 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 07:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:25:25 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Europe says yes to spam Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:25:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Avery [mailto:mavery@mail.otherwhen.com] > Sent: 11 May 1999 14:45 > To: FreeBSD Chat > Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam > > > On 11 May 99, at 10:03, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > > > Just saw this on the aussie-isp list. > > > > > The European Parliament has voted to legalise spam. The European > > > > Internet Service Providers Association (EuroISPA) > campaigned against > > > > the idea, a UK MEP made a passionate speech to ban junk > email and > > > > nobody spoke in favour of it. Despite this, it was > passed 266 votes to > > > > 137. A clause to ban the harvesting of email addresses > from newsgroups > > > > and web sites was removed before the bill was passed. > > > :-(. Mind you, about 90% of the spam I receive comes from the USA so > > I'm not sure what good it would have done had they voted the other > > way. Many (most?) of this junk e-mail includes a statement > that under some > > Bill or other it is not classed as spam. Obviously the US > legislators use > > a different definition of spam/junk e-mail to those of us > in the real > > world. > > Not really. The law that is referred to hasn't been passed, so it > isn't a law. At least not yet. Also, the law, if passed, prohibits > forging addresses and requires that the spam has a *WORKING* opt- > out mechanism. All the ones I've seen have neither. True, but that doesn't help in any way with the spam problem. Most spam is a one-shot and opting out doesn't reduce it for the future because you're future spam will be from someone else. > Their comment about being in compliance with the law are as > specious as those made by many anti-spam people who threaten to > charge spammers service fees. In the end, neither has a firm > connection to reality. > > > There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make > > the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal > (something > > related to copyright IIRC). > > *sigh* We may need to have a "stupid politician" contest. Of > course, if we notify the honorees, they might consider it a > compliment. > > However, based on my limited knowledge of copyright laws, I would > think that if the material provider approved caching of their > material, it would become a "fair use". As I recall, there is a HTML > flag that indicates whether a page may be cached. So the furor may > be a "non-issue". The only big issue here is that copyright laws are > often enforceable by international treaty.... so some poor net-admin > on the other side of the planet could be hassled for no good reason. The problem is that it's the content providers themselves who are pushing for this legislation. Their revenue streams are based on the number of hits they get and those are dimished by caching systems. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 7:36:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (CJC26.RESNET.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.234.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C52914CE2 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 07:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA03791 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:36:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:36:08 +0000 (GMT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 11 May 1999 paul@originative.co.uk wrote: > Unfortunately I'm not so young as to have avoided the joys of LISP, although > I only paid enough attention to it to pass the course at the time. Do they > still teach it these days? At Cornell they used to use Dylan (an OO variant of lisp) for the advanced intro class; this semester they just switched to Scheme (though the prof for that class was threatening to use ML, heheheh :) Cliff Crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- i l i k e o a t m e a l )O( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 8:13:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD4114F8F for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:12:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:12:55 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Mark Ovens" , "Greg Lehey" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: RE: Europe says yes to spam Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:12:55 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be9bc0$beda3470$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <3737F24F.70BE6FCA@uk.radan.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make > the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal (something > related to copyright IIRC). Too late, that's already been resolved by WIPO. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 8:13:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7F515065 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:12:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:12:58 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , , Subject: RE: Europe says yes to spam Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:12:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000501be9bc0$c0ab23e0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Their revenue streams are based on the number of hits they get > and those are > dimished by caching systems. > > Paul. Properly designed caching schemes will cache only static content and not dynamic content. This should make it easy for competent administrators to save some of their own bandwidth and leave their revenue streams undisrupted. In any event, it's a non-issue thanks to WIPO and legislation like: `(b) SYSTEM CACHING- `(1) LIMITATION ON LIABILITY- A service provider shall not be liable for monetary relief, or, except as provided in subsection (j), for injunctive or other equitable relief, for infringement of copyright by reason of the intermediate and temporary storage of material on a system or network controlled or operated by or for the service provider in a case in which-- `(A) the material is made available online by a person other than the service provider, `(B) the material is transmitted from the person described in subparagraph (A) through the system or network to a person other than the person described in subparagraph (A) at the direction of that other person, and `(C) the storage is carried out through an automatic technical process for the purpose of making the material available to users of the system or network who, after the material is transmitted as described in subparagraph (B), request access to the material from the person described in subparagraph (A), if the conditions set forth in paragraph (2) are met. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 8:28:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6236B15A58 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10hESU-000JUs-0K; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:28:38 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA04150; Tue, 11 May 1999 16:28:32 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA14174; Tue, 11 May 1999 16:28:30 +0100 Message-ID: <37384C55.DFAC7609@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:27:17 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam References: <000101be9bc0$beda3470$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make > > the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal (something > > related to copyright IIRC). > > Too late, that's already been resolved by WIPO. ^^^^ ???? > > DS > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 8:33: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (CJC26.RESNET.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.234.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A95315A04 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA03866 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:32:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:32:25 +0000 (GMT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam In-Reply-To: <37384C55.DFAC7609@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 11 May 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Too late, that's already been resolved by WIPO. > ^^^^ > ???? World Intellectual Property Org. (or something like that), a group which controls international copyright laws. Cliff Crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- i l i k e o a t m e a l )O( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 8:33:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE4415BD1 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:33:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:33:38 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Mark Ovens" Cc: "Greg Lehey" , "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: RE: Europe says yes to spam Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:33:38 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01be9bc3$a40fa7d0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <37384C55.DFAC7609@uk.radan.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org www.wipo.int > -----Original Message----- > From: radan@uk.radan.com [mailto:radan@uk.radan.com]On Behalf Of Mark > Ovens > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 8:27 AM > To: David Schwartz > Cc: Greg Lehey; FreeBSD Chat > Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam > > > David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make > > > the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal (something > > > related to copyright IIRC). > > > > Too late, that's already been resolved by WIPO. > ^^^^ > ???? > > > > DS > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 8:35:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C72159F7 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 08:35:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA36240; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:35:22 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux news from Client Server News In-Reply-To: <10637.926411145@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > P.S. People recommending that I look up Microsoft or Mindcraft in > the phone book or that I ask Linus to recommend us for the tests > as a personal favor will be briefly laughed at and their message > deleted without comment. :) Damn. I'd expect some very _entertaining_ comments from you for those messages. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 9: 7:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7770414EC6 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 09:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22703; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:06:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990511100245.04683bd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:03:29 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam In-Reply-To: <19990511181344.R65965@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sounds bogus to me. It'd be in direct conflict with the EU regulations which prevent the collection and dissemination of personal information. --Brett Glass At 06:13 PM 5/11/99 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >Just saw this on the aussie-isp list. > >Greg > >----- Forwarded message from Terence ----- > > > Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:21:34 +1000 (EST) > > To: aussie-isp@aussie.net > > Precedence: bulk > > Reply-To: aussie-isp@aussie.net > > > > > > [More idiot politicians...] > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:29:33 +1000 (EST) > > From: David Bromage > > To: cauce-aus@corvu.com > > Subject: Europe says yes to spam > > > > The European Parliament has voted to legalise spam. The European Internet > > Service Providers Association (EuroISPA) campaigned against the idea, a UK > > MEP made a passionate speech to ban junk email and nobody spoke in favour of > > it. Despite this, it was passed 266 votes to 137. A clause to ban the > > harvesting of email addresses from newsgroups and web sites was removed > > before the bill was passed. > > > > Net users are required to register with national opt-out lists if they do > > not wish to receive junk email. > >----- End forwarded message ----- > >-- >See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 9:36: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F4A155B1 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 09:35:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id CAA15685; Wed, 12 May 1999 02:35:30 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 02:35:30 +1000 (EST) From: Stephen McKay Message-Id: <199905111635.CAA15685@ren.detir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Richard Stallman visited my home town yesterday, and I went along to see the renowned zealot of free software. I was expecting to see an imposing figure with a permanent scowl, the result of being on a first name basis with the Almighty, but forced constantly to deal with the ignorant masses. What I saw was a short and hairy, almost unkempt, man who smiled lightly when I made eye contact. He was tired, presumably from an unknown number of previous engagements, and slumped over the desk while waiting for the room to fill. About 30 seats were occupied in the small conference room. Everyone had tea or coffee and were totally ignoring the unlikely looking Saint Stallman while catching up with friends who had unexpectedly heard about the event and conspired to be at the same place at the same time. I had heard about it only by accident, and attending had the flavour of being able to finally watch the rites of some secret society through knowing a friend of a friend. "Can I start now?", asked Stallman. The room fell silent. The organiser, worriedly looking at the wall clock, responded that not all of the registered guests had arrived. But after a bit of wrangling with other supporting staff, and resolving to allow late arrivals to enter, the event officially commenced. The organiser began his introduction, a short piece read from written notes. A tangled and confusing short piece that was so far off the mark that Stallman remarked, "Perhaps you should let me tell the story." Moving onto more solid ground, the organiser listed some awards that Stallman had received, his most recent one shared with Linus Torvalds. After this, Mr Stallman was permitted to speak. He spoke calmly, and unhurriedly. He told of the glory days of MIT, the times of community and collective effort, the simple and effective results of sharing software in an open and free manner. He told of the difficulties he and his group experienced with proprietary software, even when coupled with superior hardware. And he told of the impotent anger he felt when he found someone who had the software he needed, but refused to release a copy, for fear of breaking non-disclosure. During this part of the monologue he mentioned ITS, the "Incompatible Timesharing System" and a colleague and I lost composure and laughed a quick bark of a laugh "Ha!" before realising that nobody else had moved a muscle. Stallman found it pretty odd as well, and said that laughing was OK, and that "hacking is about humour too". I started to wonder what everyone else was thinking. Were they still listening to Saint Stallman the Incredibly Serious, Bearer of GNU the Microsoft-Slaying Sword, and Dweller in the Wilderness? How could they maintain this illusion while he found things in his beard, picked at his finger nails, and had already discarded his worn sneakers so as to better entangle his legs in the chair? So, he continued his talk, describing the history of the GNU project, the GNU manifesto and other things I had heard about before. But what I had not heard was the simple logic behind the history, the version without any mention of "lunatic" or "totally detached from reality". His story was basically along the lines of "This and that event happened. I didn't like it. I couldn't see how anybody would like it. I resolved never to do that to anyone. I started a project designed specifically to counteract these unpleasant events." Well, that's how I see the creation of the GNU project, as I heard him describe it. With enough software in the GNU world he would never have to put up with malfunctioning proprietary software, would never have to submit to NDA conditions, and nobody else would have to either. There was no whining when he explained why what he thought of as the GNU/Linux system should be called the GNU/Linux system. He calmly described the historical timing, the intent of the GNU group, and the way the Linux Kernel fit into the last major gap in the GNU system. Without GNU in the name, he reasoned, nobody will pay any attention to the GNU portion, and nobody will consider the philosophy behind it, and the message would be lost. He was giving out GNU/Linux Inside stickers after the talk, he said, and later I collected a few, though I had to admit that I had no Linux systems, running only FreeBSD, but had been caught up in the experience, and had to have some anyway. After describing the recent successes of free software, none of which should be any surprise to you, the story stopped at the present day, and then it was question time, and he eagerly opened a block of chocolate (fruit and nut, I expect), as perhaps a compensation for skipping the pending evening meal. While the first intrepid questioner tried to ask a question in a way that didn't contradict anything Stallman had expressly stated, my brain worked feverishly. Had not many people on the FreeBSD lists expressed dire warnings about the GPL? What was it I should be asking? I caught his eye and squeaked out my insightful question: "What do you think of FreeBSD?" Could I have asked a more imprecise question? Yes, and you'll get to read that one shortly. "They are misguided," said Stallman, and I was confused enough by his answer overlapping my attempts to construct a better question that I can't report any of his reasoning. I should have brought a camcorder. "But", I said, "some of the FreeBSD people think the GPL is evil. It restricts commerce." This was the even lamer question I warned you about. Was I subconsciously trying to rile the man by using emotive words? Did I want to report "Stallman breaths fire and abuses FreeBSD supporter"? Regardless, he continued with his very gentle rebuttal of the anti-GPL position, using some stats about the growth of pure GPL commercial ventures, emphasising the success of companies which do nothing but support and install GPL software, even, apparently, some in Australia. Luckily others took the heat, lightly applied though it was, off me and asked more questions. The audience was starting to lose its stiffness and perhaps even its worshipping reverence. A young buck asked if, just maybe, that EMACS had become too bloated? Well, nobody held back then, and all were laughing and smiling as Stallman explained that he's now rather careful what he puts into EMACS, and that, really, it's got quite a lot easier to use for users who don't have the time or inclination to become EMACS experts. "Do you ever use vi?", asked another supplicant. His reply was along the lines of "In the church of GNU, vi is not a punishment, it is a penance". I'm not sure if that makes any sense to me, but then, I've never liked EMACS, and use vi every day. Can that have anything to do with it? Calm now, and resolving to ask at least one good question, I asked, "Is there room for two types of free software, GPL and non-GPL, such as BSD?" He responded that all free software is good software. But that he believes the greater good is served by releasing it under the GPL. He added that people should not mistake this with non-GPL being bad. He emphasised that to disagree with Stallman does not automatically make you bad, or make your ideas bad. He went on to reiterate the moral philosophy that underlies his position on software freedom, and his intent to promote cooperating communities of people freely exchanging software and ideas. That's why, he said, you have to put in the part about not being able to make software that is free into software that is not free by modifying part of it. He had earlier brought up the problem faced by most early users of X Windows, who got a binary only version from their particular Unix vendor despite the fact that the base distribution from MIT was free software. They were disempowered despite X being "free", but obviously not "free" enough. "There is no God", he said as part of another answer, and I swear there was a collective "Gasp!", a sharp intake of breath. I was quite surprised as Australia is not known as a particularly religious place, and I've long ago given up trying to bait the occasional visiting Mormon bicycle duo, or upset the composure of Jehovah's Witnesses that wake you at impossibly early hours on weekends. Well, actually he said, "Since there are no Gods, you have to base your moral code on a humanitarian viewpoint and the value of cooperation with your neighbours, rather than religious dictates", or a very similar statement. Yes, definitely plural. "No Gods". "Do you read slashdot?" "No, I don't. I don't use the web, or read any net news. I don't have the time. I travel too much, and my laptop rarely has a good enough connection. I do everything by email." Apparently there are still sites around that will mail you a web page if you mail the URL to the right address. Amazing! Somewhere amongst all this, Stallman explained that the Free Software Foundation does make money, but they don't give him any. Way back when it first got enough money to afford to pay somebody, he had to decide who to spend it on. Obviously not on Stallman, because he could convince Stallman to work for nothing! And so, he hired somebody else. As time progressed and the FSF grew, he decided he would be in a much better moral position if they didn't even pay his air fares and such. So he panhandles his way round the world speaking on free software, eating on other people's expense accounts, and inviting everyone he sees to write free software and dump the proprietary stuff. He claims that the returns from invested awards and prizes are enough to support a modest standard of living, and that's all anybody really needs. Officialdom then officially concluded the official schedule, and some people left. The rest of us bounded up to shake hands (both contact and non-contact hand shaking), and take modest, but not too modest, numbers of GNU/Linux Inside stickers, and try to say something that would get an interesting response. There was an ill defined knot of admirers clustered around Stallman, pushing pet projects, and asking various questions which I thought had already been adequately answered by his presentation. He responded to every one of them with apparent interest, with care and accuracy, and with no hint of having to force himself, or any sign of annoyance. This even though I discovered he was to talk at another venue in just over an hour, and wasn't going to have time to eat or rest. He started to shift from side to side while talking, and this grew into a sort of dance with some shifty foot work, and then he sort of skipped around to the back of the group. After a noticeable time when he did not return to his designated spot, the group folded inside out and he was at the centre again, still moving about, perhaps to keep alert, perhaps to give his limbs some blood. He never lost track of the discussion while manoeuvring, though I was definitely thinking about Monty Python, and whether he'd ever rehearsed for a part. There was an enormous, possibly bronze, or fake bronze if there is such a thing, bust of some military looking type in the corner of the room, and I asked him if he would like a huge bronze statue made of himself. He didn't seem to think that was very likely, or very sensible. To cover for this, I explained my major worry about future software, that hardware manufacturers might collude to squeeze out free operating systems by not disclosing the specifications of new hardware, and waiting for all the old hardware to become obsolete. I pointed at the obvious villainy of Intel's I2O project. He shared some of my concerns and encourages people to vote against undocumented hardware by not buying it, but dismissed I2O as obviously being directed against Intel's chip making competitors, and not directly aimed at us. Now was the thanking and leaving time, and a number of people thanked and left in a tidy and orderly manner. To each he smiled and pronounced "Happy Hacking!" as they departed. Then it was my turn to receive the benediction, and I walked out, somewhat disoriented by the afternoon's spectacle, and watched the rain for a time while waiting for my taxi. So, what is this thing called Richard Stallman? Quirky, yes. Dedicated, yes. How much fun can it be to tell the same story hundreds of times, and get the same old questions hundreds of times. Is he arrogant or paranoid? No. Everything he said was warmly said, and said to motivate. He spreads a message he deeply believes in, and encourages others to believe just as deeply. Richard Stallman is not a madman. He is not the enemy. He has a simple and logical story to tell, about individual and collective freedom, and communities of cooperating individuals. You might conclude that his dream can never be fulfilled, but I believe that you should listen to his message, and consider how you can improve your own life by improving everyone's life. I respect him, and I respect what he has to say. Stephen McKay 1999-05-11 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 10:47:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83AF415167 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:47:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.7]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA7B9; Tue, 11 May 1999 19:46:55 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00387; Tue, 11 May 1999 19:46:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990511005033.A43046@scientia.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:46:57 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Ben Smithurst Subject: Re: Server Uptimes project... Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-99 Ben Smithurst wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > >> FreeBSD's now in second place I'm happy to report with 57 machines. NT >> is in >> 3rd with 50. We also have the second highest average uptime behind >> NetBSD. > > I'd add my home machine, but I can't see an easy way to make it work > with dialup machines. It seems to want to connect to the uptime > server every minute or so. Has anyone got it working on a dialup > machine? Perhaps I should just try and see what happens, there's nothing > to lose. Ye can set the variable for sync to a larger number than the 60 (secs/mins?). Also what it needs it something like rc5des' lurk mode... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 10:50:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83481512E for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.7]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA1CD0; Tue, 11 May 1999 19:50:56 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00398; Tue, 11 May 1999 19:51:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:51:00 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: John Baldwin Subject: RE: Server Uptimes project... Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-99 John Baldwin wrote: > > On 10-May-99 Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> It doesn't do uptime on uptime, correct? > > It subtracts the sysctl variable boottime.tv_sec from the current time, > so it is the actual uptime. If you go offline and come back on it will > use the uptime from your box, not how long you've been online. What I meant was something like a reboot. That clears one's uptime... Will it still preserve that after ye have rebooted? Cumulative uptime I think one would call it? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 11: 5:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C046B1512E for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:05:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.7]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3AEF; Tue, 11 May 1999 20:05:17 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00419; Tue, 11 May 1999 20:05:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:05:21 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam Cc: FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-May-99 a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality wrote: > On Tue, 11 May 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > >> > Too late, that's already been resolved by WIPO. >> ^^^^ >> ???? > > World Intellectual Property Org. (or something like that), a group which > controls international copyright laws. WIPO is a bunch of nitwits basically in a lot of aspects... For example the domain name system under their jurisdiction would mean that if I regged a domain which happens to be the trademark of some company on the other side of pluto they could sue me for using it and force me to hand over the domainname. Which is all a load of bollocks in my opinion. Sorry for the digression ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 11:17:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [12.9.219.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D3115003 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:17:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from HARLIE.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [12.9.219.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA30319 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:17:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:17:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Not exactly a FreeBSD question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org But I thought I'd ask the experts. I'm looking at getting a 15" LCD monitor for my FreeBSD box, and having had experience with early LCD monitors hooked up to normal VGA cards, I'm definitely looking for a monitor/card combination with digital in/out. The first thing I found that meets my criteria is a ViewSonic VPD150 bundled with an ATI Xpert LCD card, which is based on a Rage LT Pro chipset. Well, after perusing the XFree website, I see the Rage Pro as explicitly supported, as well as several Rage Pro variants, but not the Rage LT Pro. Has anyone tried this? Does anyone have a better suggestion? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 11:20:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 502C3159F9 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26300; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:26:34 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:26:33 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, paul@originative.co.uk Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apache's pool memory seems like a good example, in case anyone cares :) --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Tue, 11 May 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 11-May-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > While I'm on this subject, what the hell does GC stand for? It's used when > > > things get deleted. > > Garbage Collect. Another man sadly deprived of LISP in his university > > CS curriculum, I see. :-) > > Hey, you CAN get C GC's ya know.. OK, I'll run away while all the C coders have > gone blind at the thought. > > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 11:25:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D64215A1F for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:25:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10877; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:25:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28395; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:25:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:25:31 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: RE: Server Uptimes project... Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-May-99 Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 10-May-99 John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 10-May-99 Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >>> It doesn't do uptime on uptime, correct? >> >> It subtracts the sysctl variable boottime.tv_sec from the current time, >> so it is the actual uptime. If you go offline and come back on it will >> use the uptime from your box, not how long you've been online. > > What I meant was something like a reboot. That clears one's uptime... Will > it still preserve that after ye have rebooted? Cumulative uptime I think > one would call it? Yeah, that'll clear it. It's uses uptime like the command, not a cumulative count. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 11:31:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B93A14C18 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA31919; Tue, 11 May 1999 20:31:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, paul@originative.co.uk Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 May 1999 20:31:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: 's message of "Tue, 11 May 1999 11:26:33 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org writes: > Apache's pool memory seems like a good example, in case anyone cares :) It's a good concept, but Apache's implementation of it is very poor - it leaks like a sieve, and is responsible for making the Sioux DoS possible. (I offered them patches, which they ignored.) And it's not real GC - you have to explicitly release a pool to discard the objects within it, and when you do, *all* objects are discarded, even if they're still referenced. It works for Apache because they have a lot of stuff which is transaction-bound - i.e. buffers for reading request headers, file descriptors to the document or CGI requested, etc., which can be discarded all in one go. Also, it does more than just GC since it closes files and sockets does some other cleanup stuff. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 12:14:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C7C15562 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:14:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27598; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:20:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:20:13 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town In-Reply-To: <199905111635.CAA15685@ren.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I've got to admit -- I rather enjoyed reading that. Thanks. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Wed, 12 May 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: > Richard Stallman visited my home town yesterday, and I went along to see > the renowned zealot of free software. I was expecting to see an imposing > figure with a permanent scowl, the result of being on a first name basis > with the Almighty, but forced constantly to deal with the ignorant masses. [snippage] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 12:27:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43182155AE for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27833; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:33:15 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:33:15 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, paul@originative.co.uk Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pardon my ignorance -- Sioux DoS? Never heard of that one. I'm surprised that they'd actually ignore patches for something that important... --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On 11 May 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > writes: > > Apache's pool memory seems like a good example, in case anyone cares :) > > It's a good concept, but Apache's implementation of it is very poor - > it leaks like a sieve, and is responsible for making the Sioux DoS > possible. (I offered them patches, which they ignored.) And it's not > real GC - you have to explicitly release a pool to discard the objects > within it, and when you do, *all* objects are discarded, even if > they're still referenced. It works for Apache because they have a lot > of stuff which is transaction-bound - i.e. buffers for reading request > headers, file descriptors to the document or CGI requested, etc., > which can be discarded all in one go. Also, it does more than just GC > since it closes files and sockets does some other cleanup stuff. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 12:50:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB2414FF9 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA32122; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:49:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Daniel O'Connor" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, paul@originative.co.uk Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 May 1999 21:49:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: unknown@riverstyx.net's message of "Tue, 11 May 1999 12:33:15 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org unknown@riverstyx.net writes: > Pardon my ignorance -- Sioux DoS? Never heard of that one. I'm surprised > that they'd actually ignore patches for something that important... They fixed the Sioux DoS by restricting the size of the request headers. The patches I sent were an attempt to fix the real cause of the problem, rather than one of its symptoms (the problem being a severe memory leak) by implementing the equivalent of free() for the pool system, and calling it at certain strategic places. To the best of my knowledge, they never applied my patches - all I got was an 'acknowledgment of receipt' of sorts. I haven't looked at Apache lately - it's horribly bloated IMHO, and I never switched from 1.2.x to 1.3.x - but my guess is the MIME parsing code still leaks like a sieve (it keeps discarding allocated strings without freeing them). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 12:58: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F9E14C18 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:57:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23034; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:57:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd022928; Tue May 11 12:57:42 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA16922; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:57:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905111957.MAA16922@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam To: marko@uk.radan.com (Mark Ovens) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:57:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3737F24F.70BE6FCA@uk.radan.com> from "Mark Ovens" at May 11, 99 10:03:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > :-(. Mind you, about 90% of the spam I receive comes from the USA so > I'm not sure what good it would have done had they voted the other > way. Many (most?) of this junk e-mail includes a statement that under > some Bill or other it is not classed as spam. Obviously the US > legislators use a different definition of spam/junk e-mail to those of > us in the real world. That bill is bogus. Yes, it was a bill, but it was never passed. In the US, there are a number of laws which prohibit SPAM, but only in state jurisdictions. In California, you can bill $50 per incident to a maximum of $25,000 per day for each SPAM, so long as you publish policy beforehand. Publication includes: 220-mydomain.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.9.2/8.9.2; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:45:55 (UCT) 220-This is formal notice under California Assembly Bill 1629, enacted 220-on 26 September, 1998, that any UCE sent to or through this server 220-will be billed US$50 per incident, up to the legally allowed maximum 220 of US$25,000 per day. A relatively easy hack to `confSMTP_LOGIN_MSG' in your .mc file. Makes you want to set up an open relay and go public as an Internet stock expecting to make large profits on "electronic postage stamps" that cost $50 a pop... If you do, I insist on a royalty of 1% for having the idea first... > There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make > the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal (something > related to copyright IIRC). You're not copying it, you are storing and forwarding it. I would really laugh if somone got a cease-and-desist order against British Telecom for storing voice mail without the permission of the caller, using such a law... not that I'm suggesting someone do this if the morons actually pass the law. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 13: 2:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B04815024 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:02:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09911; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:02:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd009860; Tue May 11 13:02:22 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA17347; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:02:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905112002.NAA17347@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] To: mladavac@metropolitan.at (Ladavac Marino) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:02:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: cmcurtin@interhack.net, paul@originative.co.uk, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FA@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> from "Ladavac Marino" at May 11, 99 03:03:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Clearly you didn't pay enough attention to see its beauty and > > elegance. Shame on you. :-) > > > [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal > with nail clippings thrown in." > > 'Nuff said :) And perl combines the power of C with the ease of use of PL/1... And PL/1... IBM had a PL/1, It's syntax wose than Joss; And everywhere this language went, It was a total loss. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 13: 4:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970F51506D for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:04:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28192; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:04:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028130; Tue May 11 13:04:13 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA17422; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:04:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905112004.NAA17422@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] To: cmcurtin@interhack.net (Matt Curtin) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:04:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mladavac@metropolitan.at, paul@originative.co.uk, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14136.12028.270670.384878@strangepork.interhack.net> from "Matt Curtin" at May 11, 99 09:22:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And I don't want to hear the "Perl is readable if you write it that > way" argument--I use it myself all the time. But it is! And BASIC is structured, if you write it that way! And COBOL is terse, if you... dang; I just can lie that blatantly. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 13:12:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037EC14ED3 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28993; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:12:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd028943; Tue May 11 13:12:18 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA17809; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:12:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905112012.NAA17809@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:12:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905111355.IAA15943@hostigos.otherwhen.com> from "Mike Avery" at May 11, 99 08:44:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > However, based on my limited knowledge of copyright laws, I would > think that if the material provider approved caching of their > material, it would become a "fair use". As I recall, there is a HTML > flag that indicates whether a page may be cached. Cache-Control: no-cache no-store > > > > Net users are required to register with national opt-out lists if they > > > > do not wish to receive junk email. > > If it worked, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. This type of thing works great! What SPAMmer wouldn't want a list of email addresses that didn't want SPAM?!? Of course, any SPAMmer reading the above read: What SPAMmer wouldn want a list of email addresses ?!? Instead... Also, EU law doesn't apply in the US, so US SPAMmers, come and get it, it's free lunch time! Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 13:20:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from icicle.winternet.com (icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458F815B0E; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com) Received: from tundra.winternet.com (nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11]) by icicle.winternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24035; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:20:36 -0500 (CDT) SMTP "HELO" (ESMTP) greeting from tundra.winternet.com But _really_ from :: nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11] SMTP "MAIL From" = nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com (Nathan Ahlstrom) SMTP "RCPT To" = Received: (from nrahlstr@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id PAA17848; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:20:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990511152025.C17399@winternet.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:20:25 -0500 From: Nathan Ahlstrom To: Pat Lynch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Thu, May 06, 1999 at 11:34:48AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is there any plan for which evening of the conference this big dinner will happen? or will we all just be out each night getting crazy? ;-) Pat Lynch wrote: > > Well all, a few months ago, jkh handed the dinner plans off to me > for USENIX, so I've been doing a little research : I want people to look > at these URL's and let me know which of them sound the most interesting (I > lean towards the Mission Ranch in Carmel, but I'm not sure how far it is > from the Conference Center). > > Mission Ranch > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/5/rm549.html > > Tarpy's Roadhouse (a little expensive) > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/8/rm859.html > > Domenico's (this sounds very promising, inexpensive) > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/2/rm229.html > > Jardines De San Juan (possibly too far away, but inexpensive, and listed > as one of the "If you in Monterey only one time" places) > > and last but not least, inexpensive too, > > Rappa's > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/7/rm700.html > > please let me know what you guys think, I want this to be a good time for > all... > > -Pat > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > Systems Administrator Rush Networking > > "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- > Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY > > "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- > Unknown > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Nathan Ahlstrom FreeBSD: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ nrahlstr@winternet.com PGP Key ID: 0x67BC9D19 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 13:30: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F4AB15085 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:29:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10hHnG-000Cul-00; Tue, 11 May 1999 20:02:18 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:02:18 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Server Uptimes project... Message-ID: <19990511200218.A49628@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <19990511005033.A43046@scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > Ye can set the variable for sync to a larger number than the 60 > (secs/mins?). The site and the code seem to say you can't have a delay longer than ten minutes. Oh well, no loss really. I'll keep an eye on the site in case they change this at all. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 13:51:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4902F15060 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:51:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00249; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:51:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd000150; Tue May 11 13:50:48 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA19560; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:50:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905112050.NAA19560@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:50:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: paul@originative.co.uk, mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000501be9bc0$c0ab23e0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at May 11, 99 08:12:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Properly designed caching schemes will cache only static content and not > dynamic content. This should make it easy for competent administrators to > save some of their own bandwidth and leave their revenue streams > undisrupted. Actually, this isn't true. You could design a cache control that used a context identifier that knew about the dynamic nature of the content, and based a cache preterbation based on this. Ontologically, you could look at this as similar to the use of directories as files for AppleDouble, and for other types of metadata encapsulation in filesystem layers. I have frequently considered, in my copius spare time (yeah, right) adding an RFC 2068 compliant cache extension into Apache and SQUID (and maybe Harvest), that did the following: Cache-Control: no-cache dynamic-content-id="Authentication: bob" Where "Authentication: bob" is the authentication header sent with the initial request. This would allow the cached content to be retrieved. You could also envision other information, based on proxy authentication, and so on, which would allow a shared cache server to act as an unshared cache server. The point is, dynamic content is cacheable, if not in a shared server, then in an unshared one. Since the ``dynamic-content-id'' header specifies a cache semantic, and since proxies will only deal with the values they understand, and since semantic override is left-to-right, this allows the extension to be harmless in the face of a caching proxy that doesn't recognize the preterbation algorithm. In addition, a cache server or proxy cache server could specify a value for ``dynamic-content-id'' that reference d a cookie value, instead. This would allow the use of a cookie as a preterbation for cache (and hash) lookup, allowing the possibility that "Bob's sport page" and "Terry's sport page" are the same, and shared between the users, even though the content is "personalized" (dynamic). FWIW, I believe something like this will be necessary, as more and more companies "improve" their sites with "dynamic content", and simultaneously suck the agregate banwidth down into the toilet. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 14: 2:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 4049D15060; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:02:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: nrahlstr@winternet.com Cc: lynch@rush.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990511152025.C17399@winternet.com> (message from Nathan Ahlstrom on Tue, 11 May 1999 15:20:25 -0500) Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-Id: <19990511210215.4049D15060@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Is there any plan for which evening of the conference this big dinner will > happen? or will we all just be out each night getting crazy? ;-) getting crazy every night works for me. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 14: 3:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from control.colossus.dynip.com (pm6-4.sba1.avtel.net [207.71.222.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C2315A72 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:03:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@control.colossus.dynip.com) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by control.colossus.dynip.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id OAA18799; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Computer Help From: Donald Burr To: Barbarians mailing list , Pamela Gross , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FW: [Fwd: drug dealers v software developers] (fwd) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----FW: <199905111647.JAA07383@trixie.kosman.via.ayuda.com>----- Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:47:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kevin O'Gorman" To: sblug-users@syv.com Subject: [Fwd: drug dealers v software developers] (fwd) ----- Forwarded message from Ric Moore ----- >From majordom-users-owner-kevin=ayuda.com@locutus.calderasystems.com Fri May 7 08:03:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from fiji.VIA.ayuda.COM (root@fiji [134.70.254.33]) by trixie.kosman.via.ayuda.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA15131 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 08:03:17 -0700 Received: from locutus.calderasystems.com (locutus.calderasystems.com [207.179.18.130]) by fiji.VIA.ayuda.COM (8.7.4/8.7.3) wit h SMTP id IAA17721 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 08:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22109 invoked by uid 87); 7 May 1999 15:02:33 -0000 Delivered-To: majordom-users@locutus.calderasystems.com Received: (qmail 22065 invoked by uid 87); 7 May 1999 15:02:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 21990 invoked from network); 7 May 1999 15:02:26 -0000 Received: from wayward.net (HELO silo1.wayward.net) (208.128.84.85) by locutus.calderasystems.com with SMTP; 7 May 1999 15:02:26 -0000 Received: from wayward.net (silo1.wayward.net [208.142.87.137]) by silo1.wayward.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA06711 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 11:02:45 -0400 Message-ID: <37330094.E27396D7@wayward.net> Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 11:02:44 -0400 From: Ric Moore X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-Caldera [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5 i586) X-Accept-Language: en To: caldera-users Subject: [Fwd: drug dealers v software developers] Sender: majordom-users-owner@lists.calderasystems.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: users@lists.calderasystems.com James Gwyn wrote: > > >> > > Ric, a friend sent me this, thought you'd like it. > > Jim. > > > > >>> ---------------------------- --------------------------- > >>> Drug Dealers Software Developers > >>> ---------------------------- --------------------------- > >>> > >>> Refer to their clients Refer to their clients > >>> as "users". as "users". > >>> > >>> "The first one's free!" "Download a free trial > >>> version..." > >>> > >>> Have important Asian Have important Asian > >>> connections. connections. > >>> > >>> Strange jargon: Strange jargon: > >>> "Stick" "SCSI" > >>> "Rock" "RTFM" > >>> "Wrap" "Packet" > >>> "E" "C" > >>> "Stash" "Cache" > >>> "Drive-by" "CTRL ALT DEL" > >>> "Hit (LSD)" "Hit (WWW)" > >>> "Source" "Source-code" > >>> "The Pigs" "Microsoft" > >>> > >>> Realize that there's tons Realize that there's tons > >>> of cash in the 14- to of cash in the 14- to > >>> 25-year-old market. 25-year-old market. > >>> > >>> Clients really like your stuff Clients really like your stuff > >>> when it works. When it doesn't when it works. When it doesn't > >>> work they want to kill you. work they want to kill you. > >>> > >>> Job is assisted by the Job is assisted by the > >>> industry's producing industry's producing > >>> newer, more potent product. newer, more potent products. > >>> > >>> Often seen in the company Often seen in the company of > >>> of pimps, hustlers and marketing people, venture > >>> low-lifes. capitalists and fund managers. > >>> > >>> When things go wrong, a When things go wrong, a > >>> "fix" is just a phone call "fix" is just a phone call > >>> away, but may be expensive. away, but may be expensive. > >>> > >>> A lot of people are getting A lot of people are getting > >>> rich while still teenagers. rich while still teenagers. > >>> > >>> Product causes unhealthy DOOM, Quake, SimCity, > >>> addictions. Duke Nukem 3D... > >>> > >>> Do your job well and Damn! DAMN!!! > >>> you can sleep with > >>> sexy movie stars who > >>> depend on you. > >>> > >>> ************************ > >>> > > > >--------- End forwarded message ---------- Triple damn! -- Home For Wayward Computers | http://www.wayward.net Ric Moore, Grand Poobah | TLUG webpages wayward@wayward.net | httpd://www.wayward.net/tlug Greensboro, North Carolina | completely MS free ----- End of forwarded message from Ric Moore ----- --------------End of forwarded message------------------------- --- Donald Burr | PGP: Your *NEW* WWW HomePage: http://more.at/dburr/ ICQ #16997506 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 14: 4:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE47A15C6F for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:04:15 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Europe says yes to spam Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:04:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be9bf1$d35c7cb0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199905112050.NAA19560@usr04.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FWIW, I believe something like this will be necessary, as more and > more companies "improve" their sites with "dynamic content", and > simultaneously suck the agregate banwidth down into the toilet. The basic idea is that it should be possible to work up a logical caching scheme were everybody wins. The operators of the caches benefit because they save bandwidth. The web page providers benefit because they save bandwidth. If caching is implemented properly, nobody loses. Hit counts can still be measured based upon the dynamic portions with as few actual bytes changing hands as possible. Unfortunately, at present, the only tool available to allow parts of a page to be cached and not others is frames (or custom java/javascript). And frames are ugly and awkward. If your only goal is to switch out a graphic on page views, the actual amount of dynamic content is small. The problem is that the graphic is in the middle of a page, and the rest of the page's contents are larger. I think a good solution would be something to allow browers to piece together pieces of pages using something similar to shtml. That way the browser could make a single connection to a caching proxy, get the static portion of the page, and then go on to request the rest of the page through the same connection with the cache acting as a 'pass through'. Perhaps something like :
Static alternative
It might take some work to make something like this look reasonable while the page is loading though. That way the majority of the data could be made static and only the truly dynamic portions would have to be refetched. David Schwartz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 14: 8:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB3B150DD for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:07:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA26800; Tue, 11 May 1999 16:30:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:30:31 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 May 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > writes: > > Apache's pool memory seems like a good example, in case anyone cares :) > > It's a good concept, but Apache's implementation of it is very poor - > it leaks like a sieve, and is responsible for making the Sioux DoS > possible. (I offered them patches, which they ignored.) And it's not > real GC - you have to explicitly release a pool to discard the objects > within it, and when you do, *all* objects are discarded, even if > they're still referenced. It works for Apache because they have a lot > of stuff which is transaction-bound - i.e. buffers for reading request > headers, file descriptors to the document or CGI requested, etc., > which can be discarded all in one go. Also, it does more than just GC > since it closes files and sockets does some other cleanup stuff. It's not even garbage collection, just resource tracking, the kind of resource tracking you do when you have a very compolex program with memory leaks and a upcoming deadline. you hack in a malloc replacement, and when certain states of your program is complete you free that pool. nasty, slow and ick.... but then you just have to verify your malloc tracker rather than the whole program. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 14:25:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF3E152AC; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:25:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA85435; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:22:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: nrahlstr@winternet.com, lynch@rush.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner In-Reply-To: <19990511210215.4049D15060@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As long as you don't insist on trying your ?Irish? (Not) accent out like last time... On Tue, 11 May 1999, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > Is there any plan for which evening of the conference this big dinner will > > happen? or will we all just be out each night getting crazy? ;-) > > > getting crazy every night works for me. > > jmb > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 14:57:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 0617415C39; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:56:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: julian@whistle.com Cc: nrahlstr@winternet.com, lynch@rush.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Julian Elischer on Tue, 11 May 1999 14:22:33 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-Id: <19990511215657.0617415C39@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > As long as you don't insist on trying your ?Irish? (Not) accent out > like last time... no problem, mate, got a new one fer you this year. ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 14:57:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C64BF1518B for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:57:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA59344; Tue, 11 May 1999 14:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Ladavac Marino Cc: "'Matt Curtin'" , paul@originative.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 May 1999 15:03:45 +0200." <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FA@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:57:30 -0700 Message-ID: <59341.926459850@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal > with nail clippings thrown in." This from the creator of PERL? Give me a break! That's like Hitler criticizing Mussolini for being a dictator. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 15: 0:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F8A1525C for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA30332; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:06:25 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Ladavac Marino , "'Matt Curtin'" , paul@originative.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: <59341.926459850@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, Perl's a damn nice language to look at -- Lisp is so remarkably dry and distasteful. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Tue, 11 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal > > with nail clippings thrown in." > > This from the creator of PERL? Give me a break! That's like Hitler > criticizing Mussolini for being a dictator. :) > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 15: 6:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C1F15250 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA30491; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:12:43 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:12:43 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And if you think about it, Lisp really does look like oatmeal and nail clippings :-) --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Tue, 11 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > Hey, Perl's a damn nice language to look at -- Lisp is so remarkably dry > and distasteful. > > --- > tani hosokawa > river styx internet > > > On Tue, 11 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal > > > with nail clippings thrown in." > > > > This from the creator of PERL? Give me a break! That's like Hitler > > criticizing Mussolini for being a dictator. :) > > > > - Jordan > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 15:13:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC4315A46 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA28308; Tue, 11 May 1999 17:12:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:12:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Ovens , grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam In-Reply-To: <199905111957.MAA16922@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 11 May 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make > > the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal (something > > related to copyright IIRC). > > You're not copying it, you are storing and forwarding it. > > I would really laugh if somone got a cease-and-desist order against > British Telecom for storing voice mail without the permission of > the caller, using such a law... not that I'm suggesting someone do > this if the morons actually pass the law. Or the postal service for "storing and forwarding" your snail mail. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) "One should admire Windows users. It takes a great deal of courage to trust Windows with your data." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 15:28:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (arc1-68.netwalk.net [206.175.61.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4CD15A2B for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:28:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA14865; Tue, 11 May 1999 18:26:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:29:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: John Baldwin Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Server Uptimes project... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :> What I meant was something like a reboot. That clears one's uptime... Will :> it still preserve that after ye have rebooted? Cumulative uptime I think :> one would call it? : :Yeah, that'll clear it. It's uses uptime like the command, not a cumulative :count. : Yup, not clearing it would kind of defeat the purpose. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 15:53:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDA91516E for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:53:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA59695; Tue, 11 May 1999 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 May 1999 02:35:30 +1000." <199905111635.CAA15685@ren.detir.qld.gov.au> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:53:11 -0700 Message-ID: <59691.926463191@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What I saw was a short and hairy, almost unkempt, man who smiled lightly > when I made eye contact. He was tired, presumably from an unknown number > of previous engagements, and slumped over the desk while waiting for the > room to fill. Heh, yes, RMS's personal appearance is quite legendary but that doesn't stop him from being an uncommonly effective and intelligent speaker when he wants to be. If I had even a tenth of his skill at giving purely off-the-cuff presentations without slides, making each presentation sound fresh even though I'd done it hundreds of times, I'd be a very happy man. You don't have to agree with the man's beliefs, and having known RMS for going on 15 years now I can say that there's a lot of points we don't agree on, but you can't help but respect his intelligence. It's clear to anyone who meets and spends any amount of time talking to him that RMS is no idiot and anyone who dismisses him as such has clearly not done their homework. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 16: 7:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF9615216 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 16:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10hLcC-000JMn-0C; Tue, 11 May 1999 23:07:08 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA00367; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:06:31 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id AAA00605; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:06:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:06:09 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam Message-ID: <19990512000609.A254@marder-1> References: <3737F24F.70BE6FCA@uk.radan.com> <199905111957.MAA16922@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199905111957.MAA16922@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, May 11, 1999 at 07:57:35PM +0000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 11, 1999 at 07:57:35PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > There is also another law being proposed by the EU which would make > > the local caching of Web pages by ISP's effectively illegal (something > > related to copyright IIRC). > > You're not copying it, you are storing and forwarding it. > I know, but obviously MEPs don't know what caching is, see below. I've found the article now (PC World, May '99). Seems to be the same bit of legislation: "Labour MEP Christine Oddy is trying to overturn a proposal that threatens to bring the Web to a standstill. Euro MPs voted to ban the unauthorized copying of material as it is being transmitted over the Internet. But the measure, part of a proposed directive on e-commerce, would have outlawed the caching of popular material on local servers to speed access and minimize network traffic. Oddy is to table an amendment to get around the problem. The move was welcomed by the European Internet Service Providers Association. A spokeman said: `I'm pretty sure that Euro MPs did not really know what they were doing. A definition of caching could undo some of the damage done in the vote on copyright'. Oddy also plans an amendment to restrict junk e-mail" > I would really laugh if somone got a cease-and-desist order against > British Telecom for storing voice mail without the permission of > the caller, using such a law... not that I'm suggesting someone do > this if the morons actually pass the law. > Nothing would surprise me. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 16: 7:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C26D15239 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 16:07:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:05:39 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: brett@lariat.org, grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Europe says yes to spam Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:05:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org] > Sent: 11 May 1999 17:03 > To: Greg Lehey; FreeBSD Chat > Subject: Re: Europe says yes to spam > > > Sounds bogus to me. It'd be in direct conflict with the EU regulations > which prevent the collection and dissemination of personal > information. It's passed it's first reading, I doubt that the amendment stage and second reading will stop it but it may change a little. More info can be found here http://ecauce.xisl.co.uk/timeline.html Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 16:10:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E459D15265 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 16:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id BAA20076 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 12 May 1999 01:10:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id D31418837; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:38:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:38:04 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-ID: <19990512003804.A21493@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990511152025.C17399@winternet.com> <19990511210215.4049D15060@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <19990511210215.4049D15060@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Tue, May 11, 1999 at 02:02:15PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5307 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Jonathan M. Bresler: > getting crazy every night works for me. Agreed, that's what we did last year anyway. Went to bed around 2AM (one day at 4:30AM) and up again in time for tutorials at 9AM. What a week ! :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #71: Sun May 9 20:16:32 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 17: 3:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C4014D4E for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 17:03:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA27215; Wed, 12 May 1999 09:33:42 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA73363; Wed, 12 May 1999 09:33:40 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:33:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ladavac Marino Cc: "'Matt Curtin'" , paul@originative.co.uk, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: LISP (was: [Re: Request For Better Communications]) Message-ID: <19990512093340.B65965@freebie.lemis.com> References: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FA@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FA@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at>; from Ladavac Marino on Tue, May 11, 1999 at 03:03:45PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 11 May 1999 at 15:03:45 +0200, Ladavac Marino wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Matt Curtin [SMTP:cmcurtin@interhack.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 3:01 PM >> To: paul@originative.co.uk >> Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >> Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] >> > [ML] On subject of Lisp > >> Clearly you didn't pay enough attention to see its beauty and >> elegance. Shame on you. :-) >> > [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal > with nail clippings thrown in." > > 'Nuff said :) About Larry Wall? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 17: 4:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCC4914D4E for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 17:04:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA27223; Wed, 12 May 1999 09:34:41 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA73379; Wed, 12 May 1999 09:34:41 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:34:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ladavac Marino , "'Matt Curtin'" , paul@originative.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: LISP (was: [Re: Request For Better Communications]) Message-ID: <19990512093441.C65965@freebie.lemis.com> References: <59341.926459850@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from unknown@riverstyx.net on Tue, May 11, 1999 at 03:06:25PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 11 May 1999 at 15:06:25 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > On Tue, 11 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >>> [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal >>> with nail clippings thrown in." >> >> This from the creator of PERL? Give me a break! That's like Hitler >> criticizing Mussolini for being a dictator. :) > > Hey, Perl's a damn nice language to look at -- Lisp is so remarkably dry > and distasteful. What have you ever done in LISP? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 17: 9:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from imap.ncsa.es (imap.ncsa.es [194.179.50.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5EA14D4E for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 17:09:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesusr@freebsd.org) Received: from kk (modem224-119.ncsa.es [195.77.224.119]) by imap.ncsa.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA57638; Wed, 12 May 1999 02:08:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <012201be9c0b$fd80c2c0$77e04dc3@kk> From: "Jesus Rodriguez" To: "Ollivier Robert" , Subject: RE: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 02:11:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >According to Jonathan M. Bresler: >> getting crazy every night works for me. > >Agreed, that's what we did last year anyway. Went to bed around 2AM (one day >at 4:30AM) and up again in time for tutorials at 9AM. What a week ! :-) This seems a good plan for my first travel to USA ;) JesusR. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 21:10:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3725A14EEC for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-69-194.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.69.194]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA22880 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA06396 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:11:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199905120411.AAA06396@bellsouth.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 May 1999 14:57:30 PDT." <59341.926459850@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:11:30 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal > with nail clippings thrown in." That's OK. I'm still anxiously awaiting the release of the native FreeBSD version of Allegro. Viva Franz! -- Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 23:57:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4629A14F2E for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 23:57:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA19381; Tue, 11 May 1999 23:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:57:10 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: BAFUG meeting head count Message-ID: <19990511235710.B19334@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 11 23:57:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6AC9151E6 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 23:57:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id IAA17970; Wed, 12 May 1999 08:57:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA16311; Wed, 12 May 1999 08:57:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:57:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Wonder what ftp.cdrom.com's utilisation's like now? In-Reply-To: <3738B375.22D5031F@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Matt: What an evil suggestion. Somehow, somewhere, we will get you > for this. Done. *Hides the corpse* > Hackers: I vote we sentence him to working on VM code and fixing NFS > bugs -- for free! That'll teach him to spout off. Oh. That. - Marius - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 6:44:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D34D15040 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 06:44:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r20.bfm.org [208.18.213.116]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id JAA14113; Wed, 12 May 1999 09:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990512083944.009769c0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:39:44 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Stephen McKay From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <59691.926463191@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 15:53 11-05-1999 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >You don't have to agree with the man's beliefs, and having known RMS >for going on 15 years now I can say that there's a lot of points we >don't agree on, but you can't help but respect his intelligence. As my professor of forensic psychology used to say: There is no one more dangerous than a highly intelligent psychopath. I'm not suggesting RMS is a psychopath (I never met him), but he is espousing dangerous ideas. The fact that he is highly intelligent makes them even more dangerous. Heck, Karl Marx was intelligent. As someone who spent the first 29 years of his life in a Communist country, I can tell you how dangerous his ideas were, too. And I see way too many parallels between the ideas of the two men. Adam P.S. Have you noticed that the first four letters of Stallman and Stalin are the same? --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 7:32:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6977115D2E for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 07:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 12 May 1999 16:35:22 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FC@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: "'G. Adam Stanislav'" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Richard Stallman came to town Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:30:44 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: G. Adam Stanislav [SMTP:zen@buddhist.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 3:40 PM > To: Jordan K. Hubbard; Stephen McKay > Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town > > P.S. Have you noticed that the first four letters of Stallman and > Stalin > are the same? [ML] not once was RMS called Stahlmann :) And you know how does Stalin translate to German :) /Marino (who was for the first 25 years of his life living in another Communist country--albeit not that Communist) > --- > Want to design your own web counter? > Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 10:20:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A229D14C90 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 10:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.42]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA1477; Wed, 12 May 1999 12:19:06 -0400 Message-ID: <3738897B.D2FA17C3@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:48:11 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town References: <199905111635.CAA15685@ren.detir.qld.gov.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stephen McKay wrote: > Richard Stallman is not a madman. He is not the enemy. He has a simple > and logical story to tell, about individual and collective freedom, and > communities of cooperating individuals. You might conclude that his dream > can never be fulfilled, but I believe that you should listen to his message, > and consider how you can improve your own life by improving everyone's life. > FWIW, I also respect him, but we are simply not ready for his ideas...maybe in Cuba, or in China....but surely not in a capitalist country. Believe it or not, you made some very good advocacy there, after all, it was HIS show. The mere mention of FreeBSD is an excellent result. Well done ! cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 10:30:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E4315E4A for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 10:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04154; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:29:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990512112347.00c48300@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:28:50 -0600 To: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au In-Reply-To: <199905111635.CAA15685@ren.detir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry, but it sounds as if you've bought Stallman's line of propaganda rather than what he really thinks. These come out better in a one-on-one conversation. He really does bear malice toward anyone who seeks to profit from intellectual property, and often states his intent to destroy that with which he does not agree. He has merely honed his public message to produce the desired effect on an audience, like a corrupt preacher who preaches charity and chastity but then embezzles from the collection plate and has illicit affairs. --Brett Glass At 02:35 AM 5/12/99 +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: >Richard Stallman visited my home town yesterday, and I went along to see >the renowned zealot of free software. I was expecting to see an imposing >figure with a permanent scowl, the result of being on a first name basis >with the Almighty, but forced constantly to deal with the ignorant masses. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 10:50:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B09D14EA8 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 10:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26872 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 12:50:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:50:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm working on a serialized story (posted on my home site) that has a vague cyberpunk feel (really just computer oriented fiction :) ) and I was wondering if it's ok to refer to FreeBSD and possibly the FreeBSD web site in it? I'd like for it to be the 'prefered operating system' of the protagonists, as well as the basis for some of their bizzare efforts that antagonize the primary villains :) Would anyone have any objections to this? [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 10:57:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA2314D20 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 10:57:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 10:57:46 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Licia" , Subject: RE: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:57:46 -0700 Message-ID: <002801be9ca0$f0ef0810$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Everyone knows that you use macintoshes to fight evil. The hackers/crackers really appreciate its GUI interface (click here to transfer virus). Didn't you see Independence Day? DS > I'm working on a serialized story (posted on my home site) that > has a vague > cyberpunk feel (really just computer oriented fiction :) ) and I > was wondering > if it's ok to refer to FreeBSD and possibly the FreeBSD web site in it? > > I'd like for it to be the 'prefered operating system' of the > protagonists, > as well as the basis for some of their bizzare efforts that antagonize the > primary villains :) > > Would anyone have any objections to this? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 10:59:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4122E14C12 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 10:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26946; Wed, 12 May 1999 12:59:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:59:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? In-Reply-To: <002801be9ca0$f0ef0810$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (laughs) Yes, I know, but one of the key plot points later will turn on it being an open source OS, so I'm afraid I have to deal with OS's that are actually productive and useful for my characters ;) (nothing against MacOS, just not right for me or my characters :) ) On Wed, 12 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > Everyone knows that you use macintoshes to fight evil. The hackers/crackers > really appreciate its GUI interface (click here to transfer virus). Didn't > you see Independence Day? > > DS > > > I'm working on a serialized story (posted on my home site) that > > has a vague > > cyberpunk feel (really just computer oriented fiction :) ) and I > > was wondering > > if it's ok to refer to FreeBSD and possibly the FreeBSD web site in it? > > > > I'd like for it to be the 'prefered operating system' of the > > protagonists, > > as well as the basis for some of their bizzare efforts that antagonize the > > primary villains :) > > > > Would anyone have any objections to this? > > [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 11: 3:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DB814C12 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26195; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:03:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd026107; Wed May 12 11:03:23 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06534; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:03:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905121803.LAA06534@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:03:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <59691.926463191@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at May 11, 99 03:53:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What I saw was a short and hairy, almost unkempt, man who smiled lightly > > when I made eye contact. He was tired, presumably from an unknown number > > of previous engagements, and slumped over the desk while waiting for the > > room to fill. > > Heh, yes, RMS's personal appearance is quite legendary but that > doesn't stop him from being an uncommonly effective and intelligent > speaker when he wants to be. If I had even a tenth of his skill at > giving purely off-the-cuff presentations without slides, making each > presentation sound fresh even though I'd done it hundreds of times, > I'd be a very happy man. Maybe you could turn your back to the audience, engage in primate hair-grooming behaviour almost continuously, roll your eyes back until only the whites show and tilt your head slightly back any time anyone else is speaking, and claim that anyone who starts a paid support service for a project for which public open source will remain available and which would not exist in the first place without them, (e.g. John Ouserhout) an "evil software hoarder bent on the destruction of mankind", or words to that effect. This is what he did at the last O'Reilly Open Source Forum. I'm sure taking a page from that book would make you appear to be an equally intelligent and uncommonly effective speaker. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 11:17: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26DFC151EC for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:16:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02559; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:16:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd002518; Wed May 12 11:16:44 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07231; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:16:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905121816.LAA07231@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:16:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: licia@o-o.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <002801be9ca0$f0ef0810$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at May 12, 99 10:57:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Everyone knows that you use macintoshes to fight evil. The hackers/crackers > really appreciate its GUI interface (click here to transfer virus). Didn't > you see Independence Day? Ugh. As if we can write software to automatically identify the display hardware and sound cards on machines produced by humans, let alone the ones manufactured by aliens (or Apple... same thing). Kieffer Sutherland had a NeXT machine in "Flatliners". The computer that saved that day in "Jurrasic Park" ran IRIX (favorite quote: "Hey! Iknow this! It's UNIX!"). The computer that the Bad Guys(tm) had to overcome in order to steal the goods in "Die Hard" claimed to be running "BSD 9.2" on it's graphical login screen (note to Jordan: defaulting to a graphical environment: A Good Thing(tm) for accumulating mindshare). And, of course, Keanu Reeves would never have triumphed in "The Matrix" had it not been for the FreeBSD special effects generating boxes that were on his side. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 11:18:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832F8153A6 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:18:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08440; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:18:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd008338; Wed May 12 11:18:06 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07279; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:18:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905121818.LAA07279@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional To: licia@o-o.org (Licia) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:18:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: davids@webmaster.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Licia" at May 12, 99 12:59:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (laughs) Yes, I know, but one of the key plot points later will turn on it > being an open source OS, so I'm afraid I have to deal with OS's that are > actually productive and useful for my characters ;) > > (nothing against MacOS, just not right for me or my characters :) ) Could be FreeBSD on an iMac -- this is, after all, set in the near future, right? Maybe you'll encourage a port. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 11:18:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from main-sd1.artnetonline.com (unknown [194.75.26.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A6AA153BB for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di-015.hamburg.dialin-gw.net (di-015.hamburg.dialin-gw.net [195.90.225.15]) by main-sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id ba189931 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:18:15 +0200 Content-Length: 728 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990512083944.009769c0@mail.bfm.org> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:20:19 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: kuehl@lgk.de To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Stephen McKay , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-May-99 G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > P.S. Have you noticed that the first four letters of Stallman and Stalin > are the same? Excuse me, that comparision is really beyond all comprehension. Not every paradigm one can't agree with is that fatal. And it would be quite reasonable to take into consideration that GNU tools played an important role for achieving a free BSD. Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Lars Gerhard Kuehl Phone: +49 40 54768010 Mobile: +49 171 9307085 Fax : +49 40 54768012 Email : kuehl@lgk.de ...; mere human malice would never have taken so devious a course! RFC 1122 & 1123, IETF, R. Braden (Ed.) (1989) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 11:22: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B6A014FFC for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 15902 invoked by uid 1001); 12 May 1999 18:22:01 -0000 Date: 12 May 1999 11:22:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:22:01 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? Message-ID: <19990512112201.C15703@dub.net> References: <002801be9ca0$f0ef0810$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> <199905121816.LAA07231@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199905121816.LAA07231@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, May 12, 1999 at 06:16:43PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 12, 1999 at 06:16:43PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Everyone knows that you use macintoshes to fight evil. The hackers/crackers > > really appreciate its GUI interface (click here to transfer virus). Didn't > > you see Independence Day? > > > Ugh. As if we can write software to automatically identify the display > hardware and sound cards on machines produced by humans, let alone the > ones manufactured by aliens (or Apple... same thing). > > > Kieffer Sutherland had a NeXT machine in "Flatliners". > > The computer that saved that day in "Jurrasic Park" ran IRIX (favorite > quote: "Hey! Iknow this! It's UNIX!"). > > The computer that the Bad Guys(tm) had to overcome in order to > steal the goods in "Die Hard" claimed to be running "BSD 9.2" > on it's graphical login screen (note to Jordan: defaulting to a > graphical environment: A Good Thing(tm) for accumulating mindshare). > > And, of course, Keanu Reeves would never have triumphed in "The Matrix" > had it not been for the FreeBSD special effects generating boxes that > were on his side. > > 8-). > Don't forget the alien entity in "The Sphere". In slow motion you can see that the "garbage" that is spews to the humans in an attempt to communicate starts with a shell prompt :) -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 11:25:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0FD815304 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27107; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:25:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:25:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: Terry Lambert Cc: davids@webmaster.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional In-Reply-To: <199905121818.LAA07279@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (chuckles) I'm not real sure on the future thing yet. I'm thinking more like "this is now, just...different from our reality" :) I'm not planning really on using anything abnormally advanced, or completely impossible in the story :) Hmmm porting FreeBSD to an IMac... I wonder how much efforts like MacOS X will encourage such a concept :) On Wed, 12 May 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > (laughs) Yes, I know, but one of the key plot points later will turn on it > > being an open source OS, so I'm afraid I have to deal with OS's that are > > actually productive and useful for my characters ;) > > > > (nothing against MacOS, just not right for me or my characters :) ) > > Could be FreeBSD on an iMac -- this is, after all, set in the near > future, right? Maybe you'll encourage a port. 8-). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 11:29:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69CCC14FFC for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:29:22 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: , Subject: RE: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:29:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000201be9ca5$5b4be530$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199905121816.LAA07231@usr08.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And, of course, Keanu Reeves would never have triumphed in "The Matrix" > had it not been for the FreeBSD special effects generating boxes that > were on his side. Negative. The movie made it clear that you have to view raw code. The visualizers work for the construct. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 11:59:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357A214EDD for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 11:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA05276; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:59:18 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:59:18 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Sue Blake Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: <19990510200043.60908@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org CC:-s snipped On Mon, 10 May 1999, Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, May 10, 1999 at 02:41:51AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Ok, what the hell does fairings mean? My dictionary says it's related to > > > streamlining but it's use in these groups doesn't always seem to match that? > > > > You just can't expect fairings from Jesus. > > I'd be willing to pay for the stuff he's smoking. > Nah, it's not that good. He means "Jesus Monroy". See http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?24752 http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?24772 > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > (` > () > '` <-- a +3 uncursed budgerigar named Einstein > > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 12: 5:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BF3150D9 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 12:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 12:05:22 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Narvi" , "Sue Blake" Cc: Subject: RE: [Re: Request For Better Communications] Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:05:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be9caa$62c9fa90$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Mon, 10 May 1999, Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Mon, May 10, 1999 at 02:41:51AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Ok, what the hell does fairings mean? My dictionary says > it's related to > > > > streamlining but it's use in these groups doesn't always > seem to match that? > > > > > > You just can't expect fairings from Jesus. > > > > I'd be willing to pay for the stuff he's smoking. > > > > Nah, it's not that good. He means "Jesus Monroy". Which is the one you're supposed to let enter you? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 12:21:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47BDC1530D for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 12:21:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA05435; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:19:46 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:19:46 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Ladavac Marino , "'Matt Curtin'" , paul@originative.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] In-Reply-To: <59341.926459850@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 11 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal > > with nail clippings thrown in." > > This from the creator of PERL? Give me a break! That's like Hitler > criticizing Mussolini for being a dictator. :) > Nah, he probably just dislikes there being much too many similarily looking parenthesis 8-) > - Jordan > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 13:21:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F0614FCB for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:21:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA14428; Wed, 12 May 1999 15:43:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:43:45 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Licia Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, Licia wrote: > > I'm working on a serialized story (posted on my home site) that has a vague > cyberpunk feel (really just computer oriented fiction :) ) and I was wondering > if it's ok to refer to FreeBSD and possibly the FreeBSD web site in it? > > I'd like for it to be the 'prefered operating system' of the protagonists, > as well as the basis for some of their bizzare efforts that antagonize the > primary villains :) > > Would anyone have any objections to this? I think what everyone is actually trying to say to you is: "Awesome, we'd love to have the publicity. Please go ahead with this." If i'm mistaken would someone speak up please? btw, can you post a URL to your work when you are done? I'd love to see something like this. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 13:35:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288BA153EB for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:35:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27715; Wed, 12 May 1999 15:35:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:35:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On Wed, 12 May 1999, Licia wrote: > > > > > I'm working on a serialized story (posted on my home site) that has a vague > > cyberpunk feel (really just computer oriented fiction :) ) and I was wondering > > if it's ok to refer to FreeBSD and possibly the FreeBSD web site in it? > > > > I'd like for it to be the 'prefered operating system' of the protagonists, > > as well as the basis for some of their bizzare efforts that antagonize the > > primary villains :) > > > > Would anyone have any objections to this? > > I think what everyone is actually trying to say to you is: > > "Awesome, we'd love to have the publicity. Please go ahead with this." > > If i'm mistaken would someone speak up please? > > btw, can you post a URL to your work when you are done? I'd love to > see something like this. > > -Alfred > > (chuckles) Thank you for the feedback :) It's not very good, but I've already posted episode one, and am working on episode 2 now :) So far they're only running about 2k words per episode, as I'm just getting back into this type of writing after a long hiatus... I don't really see it having an end as such. It's a serial, that will go on basically forever or until I run out of ideas for it :) you can find the first episode at http://www.o-o.org/~licia/writing/serials/retrain/ [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 14:25:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F50715651; Wed, 12 May 1999 14:25:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01260; Wed, 12 May 1999 14:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199905122124.OAA01260@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: julian@whistle.com, nrahlstr@winternet.com, lynch@rush.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 May 1999 14:56:57 PDT." <19990511215657.0617415C39@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:24:10 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > As long as you don't insist on trying your ?Irish? (Not) accent out > > like last time... > > no problem, mate, got a new one fer you this year. I'd avoid that one, since there will be plenty of the authentic article around to show up your shabby impersonation. Pick something more original. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 15: 1:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BFA1516D; Wed, 12 May 1999 15:01:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA27059; Wed, 12 May 1999 15:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:01:14 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Mike Smith Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , julian@whistle.com, nrahlstr@winternet.com, lynch@rush.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-ID: <19990512150114.A27034@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <19990511215657.0617415C39@hub.freebsd.org> <199905122124.OAA01260@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199905122124.OAA01260@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Wed, May 12, 1999 at 02:24:10PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 12, 1999 at 02:24:10PM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > As long as you don't insist on trying your ?Irish? (Not) accent out > > > like last time... > > > > no problem, mate, got a new one fer you this year. > > I'd avoid that one, since there will be plenty of the authentic article > around to show up your shabby impersonation. > > Pick something more original. 8) How about Klingon? I doubt anyone would question how authentic your accent is ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 16: 9:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40D715A8A for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 16:09:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r15.bfm.org [208.18.213.111]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id TAA11028; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990512180927.00958600@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:09:27 -0500 To: Licia From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 15:35 12-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: >It's not very good, but I've already posted episode one, and am working on >episode 2 now :) So far they're only running about 2k words per episode, as >I'm just getting back into this type of writing after a long hiatus... What is c&e? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 16:42:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2F615AF2 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 16:42:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28635; Wed, 12 May 1999 18:42:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:42:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990512180927.00958600@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 15:35 12-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: > >It's not very good, but I've already posted episode one, and am working on > >episode 2 now :) So far they're only running about 2k words per episode, as > >I'm just getting back into this type of writing after a long hiatus... > > What is c&e? > (smiles) I've got to get around to writing that glossary :) c&e is slang the characters use to mean 'compress and encrypt', I'll try to start a glossary when I get episode 2 online, and update it with each new episode :) [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 17:35: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id CDA701501E; Wed, 12 May 1999 17:35:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: mike@smith.net.au, julian@whistle.com, nrahlstr@winternet.com, lynch@rush.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990512150114.A27034@ontario.mooseriver.com> (message from Josef Grosch on Wed, 12 May 1999 15:01:14 -0700) Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-Id: <19990513003507.CDA701501E@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > How about Klingon? I doubt anyone would question how authentic your accent > is ;-) how about gelf....i'll bring a handkerchief so that everyone stays dry. ;P jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 17:51:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r30.bfm.org [208.18.213.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23BBA14C9B for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 17:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA00246; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:51:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:50:44 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: kuehl@lgk.de Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Message-ID: <19990512195044.B217@whizkidtech.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19990512083944.009769c0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from kuehl@lgk.de on Wed, May 12, 1999 at 08:20:19PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 12, 1999 at 08:20:19PM +0200, kuehl@lgk.de wrote: > > P.S. Have you noticed that the first four letters of Stallman and Stalin > > are the same? > > Excuse me, that comparision is really beyond all comprehension. Well, first of all, it was not a comparison, it was an observation made half seriously, half tongue in cheek. Nevertheless, I can see why such a comparison could be incomprehensible today when Stalin is only remembered for his atrocities. He is history now. He was not history during my childhood. Indeed, he was presented to us as a gentle person whose sole concern was for what benefits all of us, while the Western capitalists were the monsters. He was protecting us against greedy capitalists. He made everything into common property for the benefit of all. No one was to have any financial interest in the improvement of technology (among other things). The fruit of everyone's labor was to help everyone and immediately. He even got away with copyright protection: Anything anyone wrote belonged to society at large (including anything written by authors living in other societies). I was still a child when Stalinism was overturned (but not until after his death). It was only then that it was officially admitted that Stalin was not that good, indeed, he was way off. Progress had been very slow during his era. Engineers were simply not motivated enough. (Nor were workers, managers, or anyone else.) Do you see the parallels now? Stallman, too, is presenting the capitalists as the evil people, and he is trying to protect us from them. He, too, wants technology to belong to everyone with no financial interest for those who work on its improvement. He, too, got away with copyright, replacing it with copyleft: Anything a programmer writes does not belong to its creator but to society at large. Once a programmer releases code under GPL, he gives away all rights to it for the ephemeric benefit of all. Even the original author is not permitted to reuse his own code, except under GPL forever. He has created an atmosphere in which it does not pay to be a programmer. Whatever original ideas you might have, you cannot make a living off them. As soon as you release a new and original program that took you years to develop, and try to make it pay your bills, some kid will copycat it and release under GPL (it is quite easy to write a program that does the same thing as another program, the hard part is in coming up with the idea of what a new program could do). So, why even bother coming up with new and original ideas? He has also created an atmosphere of fear: I would be afraid to look at any of GNU source code out of fear that I might unconsciously and unwittingly use some of it in my own code and relinquish any and all rights to the fruit of my labor. > Not every paradigm one can't agree with is that fatal. Yes, and thank goodness for that. Alas, this particular paradigm is. > And it would be quite reasonable to take into consideration > that GNU tools played an important role for achieving a > free BSD. It would also be quite reasonable to consider that few of the GNU tools were original ideas conceived by GNU. Most of them simply take the creative fruits of others and copycat them. Did GNU invent the C language, make, fortran, assembly language, lisp, yacc and lex? Did they really help advance technology? Between Stallman on one side and Microsoft on the other any effort to produce anything new and original is a waste, because no matter what you create, the two will take it away from you. FreeBSD is an oasis in the desert the two have created, a sign of hope that human mind is capable of dealing with adversities, no matter how hard they are. They both know it. That is why Stallman calls us misguided, while Microsoft is trying to pretend we do not exist. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 17:56:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r30.bfm.org [208.18.213.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B409E14CFD for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 17:56:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA00252; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:56:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:56:19 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Ladavac Marino Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Message-ID: <19990512195619.C217@whizkidtech.net> References: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FC@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761795FC@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at>; from Ladavac Marino on Wed, May 12, 1999 at 04:30:44PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 12, 1999 at 04:30:44PM +0200, Ladavac Marino wrote: > [ML] not once was RMS called Stahlmann :) And you know how > does Stalin translate to German :) Indeed I do. :-) And to English: Steelman. And, of course, while normally it is not right to translate names, it is fair game with Stahlmann since he gave that name to himself precisely for what it means. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 18:22:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F68414BE3 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 18:22:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r2.bfm.org [208.18.213.98]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA23098; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990512202146.00958db0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:21:46 -0500 To: Licia From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990512180927.00958600@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:42 12-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: > >(smiles) I've got to get around to writing that glossary :) c&e is slang the >characters use to mean 'compress and encrypt', I'll try to start a glossary >when I get episode 2 online, and update it with each new episode :) I have a better suggestion: Incorporate it in the story. When a slang term is used for the first time, find some excuse to explain to the reader what it means but not in an obvious way. Otherwise you are forcing the reader to interrupt the reading experience just to look something up in a glossary. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 19:14:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6329115170 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA25787 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:25:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905130225.VAA25787@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.44); 12 May 99 21:14:47 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.44); 12 May 99 21:14:29 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:14:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.19990512202146.00958db0@mail.bfm.org> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.10) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 May 99, at 20:21, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 18:42 12-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: > >(smiles) I've got to get around to writing that glossary :) c&e is slang > >the characters use to mean 'compress and encrypt', I'll try to start a > >glossary when I get episode 2 online, and update it with each new episode > >:) > I have a better suggestion: Incorporate it in the story. When a slang term > is used for the first time, find some excuse to explain to the reader what > it means but not in an obvious way. > Otherwise you are forcing the reader to interrupt the reading experience > just to look something up in a glossary. A very good point. When I am browsing in a book store and a work of fiction has a glossary - or worse yet an explanation of a foreign language the author and last 4 people the author slept with made up while they were really wasted on their drug of choice - causes me to look for another book. The writers job is to communicate. And if a work of fiction requires a glassary, the author hasn't communicated. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: A bird in the hand is worth what it will bring. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 19:19:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB4815197 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29317; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:19:49 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:19:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990512202146.00958db0@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 18:42 12-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: > > > >(smiles) I've got to get around to writing that glossary :) c&e is slang the > >characters use to mean 'compress and encrypt', I'll try to start a glossary > >when I get episode 2 online, and update it with each new episode :) > > I have a better suggestion: Incorporate it in the story. When a slang term > is used for the first time, find some excuse to explain to the reader what > it means but not in an obvious way. > > Otherwise you are forcing the reader to interrupt the reading experience > just to look something up in a glossary. > > Adam > --- > Want to design your own web counter? > Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ > (smile) I thought of that, and I've done it before, but in this case it would become far too artificial, because there will be a lot of terminology that various readers might not know, and not just fictional terms. I've had a few readers so far, who haven't known what words like feeb (feeble minded person), twitch (a person who tends to make you uncomfortable, hurt your brain, make you twitch), and even a couple who needed me to explain "message archives" to them. So I figured the easiest way is to do a glossary :) I'll be posting a recommendation that people read the glossary -first-, I think :) It's going to end up with some fairly non standard words, though I'm going to do my best to keep it as understandable as possible while telling the same story :) [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 19:24:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F79915221 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:24:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29334; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:24:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:24:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: Mike Avery Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fictional story? In-Reply-To: <199905130225.VAA25787@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, Mike Avery wrote: > On 12 May 99, at 20:21, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > At 18:42 12-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: > > > >(smiles) I've got to get around to writing that glossary :) c&e is slang > > >the characters use to mean 'compress and encrypt', I'll try to start a > > >glossary when I get episode 2 online, and update it with each new episode > > >:) > > > I have a better suggestion: Incorporate it in the story. When a slang term > > is used for the first time, find some excuse to explain to the reader what > > it means but not in an obvious way. > > > Otherwise you are forcing the reader to interrupt the reading experience > > just to look something up in a glossary. > > A very good point. When I am browsing in a book store and a work > of fiction has a glossary - or worse yet an explanation of a foreign > language the author and last 4 people the author slept with made up > while they were really wasted on their drug of choice - causes me to > look for another book. > > The writers job is to communicate. And if a work of fiction requires > a glassary, the author hasn't communicated. > > Mike > I agree to some extent. I don't favor the extensive and random use of a purely fictional language, but when you are doing a story in a genre that's not mainstream, it's just a courtesy to the "non initiate" to offer a clear definition they can refer to. The fact that there will be some slang and terminology that developes as a result of the characters close association with eachother over a long period of time, just means I need to expand that glossary the tiny amount needed to cover that. I have readers who don't know what a filesystem is, but who -do- want to read this story, so I need to accomodate them :) Or is it a matter of my not being able to communicate, if I can't explain Computer Science 101 completely in context without seeming too artificial? :) [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 19:37: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CADCC14CFB for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 9284 invoked from network); 13 May 1999 02:36:57 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by queasy.outpost.co.nz.1.168.192.in-addr.arpa with SMTP; 13 May 1999 02:36:57 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: Licia Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:36:39 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish fiction Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3.0.6.32.19990512202146.00958db0@mail.bfm.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990513023700.CADCC14CFB@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Licia wrote: > On Wed, 12 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > At 18:42 12-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: > > > > >(smiles) I've got to get around to writing that glossary :) c&e > > >is slang the characters use to mean 'compress and encrypt', I'll > > >try to start a glossary when I get episode 2 online, and update > > >it with each new episode :) > > > > I have a better suggestion: Incorporate it in the story. When a > > slang term is used for the first time, find some excuse to explain > > to the reader what it means but not in an obvious way. > > (smile) I thought of that, and I've done it before, but in this case > it would become far too artificial, because there will be a lot of > terminology that various readers might not know, and not just > fictional terms. I've had a few readers so far, who haven't known > what words like feeb (feeble minded person), twitch (a person who > tends to make you uncomfortable, hurt your brain, make you twitch), > and even a couple who needed me to explain "message archives" to > them. If your story is reasonably well-written (and I'm not implying that it isn't, I haven't looked), then the pluggandisp of any of the nonsklarkish English flutzpahs you've used should generally be able to be glorked from context. -- C. (with apologies to Mr Hofstadter) PS personally, I find the most convincing and immersive SF will simply just go hell for leather in use of jargon and let the reader catch up as they can; but then maybe that's just because I have a high glark skill quotient or something. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 19:46:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748D5151A0 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:46:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA11499; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:47:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199905130247.WAA11499@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town In-Reply-To: <19990512195044.B217@whizkidtech.net> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at "May 12, 99 07:50:44 pm" To: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Cc: kuehl@lgk.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav wrote, [snip] > He, too, got away with copyright, replacing it with copyleft: Anything a > programmer writes does not belong to its creator but to society at large. > Once a programmer releases code under GPL, he gives away all rights to it > for the ephemeric benefit of all. Even the original author is not permitted > to reuse his own code, except under GPL forever. Hmmm... I do not see how that can be true. The _original_ programmer, the orginial copyright holder, cannot use his own code anyway he would like? Sure, the copies of the code that are already out there are really 'out there' and cannot be retroactively un-GNUed, but I don't see how the original author is prevented from licensing a derivative work, or even an unmodified version, anyway he sees fit. > He has created an atmosphere in which it does not pay to be a programmer. > Whatever original ideas you might have, you cannot make a living off them. > As soon as you release a new and original program that took you years to > develop, and try to make it pay your bills, some kid will copycat it and > release under GPL (it is quite easy to write a program that does the same > thing as another program, the hard part is in coming up with the idea of > what a new program could do). So, why even bother coming up with new and > original ideas? Huh? What's to stop that same kid from writing a copycat program and distributing it as Shareware, under other Freeware licensing, or even putting it in public domain. Again, how does GNU directly affect this? Also, if it's easy to do, why can't another economically motivated party redevelop your idea? Isn't that what Microsoft Windows did to the Macintosh (after Apple took the idea from Xerox)? Last I checked, Windows is not GNU. > He has also created an atmosphere of fear: I would be afraid to look at any of > GNU source code out of fear that I might unconsciously and unwittingly use > some of it in my own code and relinquish any and all rights to the fruit > of my labor. Anyone in creative circles must have a certain fear of that. Does the musician live in fear that he's unconciously copying a song he heard as a child? Again, this issue is not unique to GNU. Actually this is not as much of a concern with software. An algorithm cannot be copywritten, it has to be patented. If you look at GNU to see how something works, then write your own implementation from scratch using the same method, that is not (necesarily) a copyright violation. > > And it would be quite reasonable to take into consideration > > that GNU tools played an important role for achieving a > > free BSD. > > It would also be quite reasonable to consider that few of the GNU tools > were original ideas conceived by GNU. Most of them simply take the creative > fruits of others and copycat them. Did GNU invent the C language, make, > fortran, assembly language, lisp, yacc and lex? Did they really help advance > technology? Did BSD invent all of these tools (well, maybe a few ;)? And again, copycatting of these tools could and does exist without GNU (afterall, what are FreeBSD tools but copycats or descendents of these same things). IMHO, GNU has a place in the world. I personally don't go to the extreme that _all_ software should be GNU, but I do think that the existence of GNU or a foundation actively trying to increase the pool of GNU software is not evil. It's just another choice for people who write programs. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 20: 1:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA6D14DB7 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:01:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA98928; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:59:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-Reply-To: <000001be9ce8$291f3790$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Because if it's a day of coding, you should just do it. If it's a 3 > > month project, you don't waste such time, and you should communicate it. > > The time factor is judged by folks who code for a living, and maybe it's > > a little high, but not too bad. I haven't seen this rule misapplied, > > but it's possible some may think so; they are most likely mis-estimating > > the scope of the work involved. > > Believe it or not, good ideas can even come from people who > can't code at all, and the ideas are just as good. Slapping these > people down just ensures they don't contribute in the future. The point is, there are lists for things like that, and this isn't one of them. You want to talk about your ideas (which you can't code), stick it on chat, and talk all day. If anyone jumps on you for saying anything on -chat, you tell them Chuck gave you explicit permission to say all you wanted, as long as you kept it on chat. The point is, while it's possible for someone who can't code to come up with some great idea, it's seldom happened. What *does* happen is that huge amounts of everyone's time gets wasted while someone who was too lazy to read the book themselves gets an education at everyone else's expense. You don't mind wasting other folks time? I do. Are you aware that all the main FreeBSD core guys used to hang out on hackers, and even answer questions on -questions? People pusing ideas like yours, who think they should be catered to at everyone else's expense, drove all of them away. It wastes the time of the folks who CAN do it. I, for one, don't appreciate that. I was real unhappy, the day that David Greenman left -questions and hackers, but I didn't blame him a bit. If you enjoy batting ideas around, hey, that's fun, I do it too, but I make sure that I don't pretend about what I'm doing, and I make sure I do it in a venue where I only engage those folks who are similarly at leisure to do so. > > Now if their ideas genuinely are bad, you are more than welcome to slap > them down as much as you wish. If that means they don't contribute more bad > ideas in the future, so much the better. Heck, it even may save you the idea > of having to explain why the bad idea is, in fact, bad. > > But "if it's such a good idea, why don't you code it?" doesn't fall into > any of these categories. It's one of those "that's what you think" type > arguments that serves as an excuse to ignore the merits of the other side's > case. > > DS > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 20: 2:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192C414D6D for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:02:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:02:25 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Subject: RE: Richard Stallman came to town Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:02:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be9ced$06e0a380$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199905130247.WAA11499@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > IMHO, GNU has a place in the world. I personally don't go to the > extreme that _all_ software should be GNU, but I do think that the > existence of GNU or a foundation actively trying to increase the pool > of GNU software is not evil. It's just another choice for people who > write programs. The evil comes from two sources. First, there are programmers who GPL their code without a clear understanding of what they're doing. Second, GNU is not just about voluntarily licensing one's source code under certain terms, it's also about legal changes that aim to eliminate the entire concept of intellectual property. It is my firm belief that the net effect of GNU and the GPL/GLL is to decrease the quality of software and create many 'everybody loses' scenarios. I have personally seen this happen too many times to count. For example, just recently a project I was involved in required a database much like 'gdbm'. There were a few features that we needed that gdbm did not offer, and had we decided to use gdbm, we would gladly have made those enhancements available to the community -- our product is not a database, so there would be no competitive issues. However, gdbm's license was, unfortunately, too restrictive for us. As a result, so we developed an in-house database on top of proprietary base code, the path of least resistance for us. It's not as good as gdbm would have been with our improvements. The community will not benefit from our effort, since even if we wanted to release the database, we don't have the rights to relase the core code we built it on. Everybody loses. This is typical. This is intentional. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 20:12:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9B6153B7 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:12:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:12:35 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Chuck Robey" Cc: Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:12:35 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be9cee$72a70310$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The point is, while it's possible for someone who can't code to come up > with some great idea, it's seldom happened. Perhaps this is something unique to FreeBSD then. The vast majority of the good product ideas I have ever heard came from 'mere' users of the product. > What *does* happen is that > huge amounts of everyone's time gets wasted while someone who was too > lazy to read the book themselves gets an education at everyone else's > expense. You don't mind wasting other folks time? I do. Then simply say, "That's a bad idea, but I don't have the time or the patience to explain why. Sorry". That's honest. Or say, "This isn't the place for people to discuss suggestions like that, send your future suggestions to X." I'm not saying you have to cater to people. I'm not saying you have to be helpful. I'm saying don't be positively unhelpful and dishonest. And "If you think that's such a good idea, why don't you code it?" is sarcastic and dishonest. > Are you aware that all the main FreeBSD core guys used to hang out on > hackers, and even answer questions on -questions? People pusing ideas > like yours, who think they should be catered to at everyone else's > expense, drove all of them away. It wastes the time of the folks who > CAN do it. I, for one, don't appreciate that. I was real unhappy, the > day that David Greenman left -questions and hackers, but I didn't blame > him a bit. I'm really not interested in the history of FreeBSD. This is not a FreeBSD-specific issue. In fact, I'll go so far as to say it has nothing to do with FreeBSD. > If you enjoy batting ideas around, hey, that's fun, I do it too, but I > make sure that I don't pretend about what I'm doing, and I make sure I > do it in a venue where I only engage those folks who are similarly at > leisure to do so. Saying, "this is not the forum for batting ideas around" is nothing at all like "if you think that this is such a good idea, why don't you code it?". Why are you attempting to equate them? I'm amazed at the extent to which you are trying to respond to a claim I did not make. What I'm talking about is when there's honest, valuable debate over an idea, and someone plays that like it's a trump card. The way some people pronounce "that's what you think!" and think the debate is over. I wasn't referring to any specific incident or person. I was simply elaborating on the difference between helpful and unhelpful directions to take. "If I code it, will you accept it?" is clearly an unhelpful direction to take. So is, "If that's such a good idea, why don't you code it?" when you are clearly implying that it wouldn't be accepted anyway. I'm the Director of Coding for the DALnet IRC Network, and I made a rule for our coding list -- if you ever say "if that's such an idea, why don't you code it?" in the middle of a debate over the merits of a feature, you lose your posting privileges. And I'm as tired of bad ideas coming from people who can't code as anyone. I even don't mind "that's a bad idea, but you wouldn't be able to understand why." At least, it's honest. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 20:20:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5600214EF6 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14137; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:26:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:26:17 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ladavac Marino , "'Matt Curtin'" , paul@originative.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: LISP (was: [Re: Request For Better Communications]) In-Reply-To: <19990512093441.C65965@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 11 May 1999 at 15:06:25 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > On Tue, 11 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > >>> [ML] Larry Wall: "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal > >>> with nail clippings thrown in." > >> > >> This from the creator of PERL? Give me a break! That's like Hitler > >> criticizing Mussolini for being a dictator. :) > > > > Hey, Perl's a damn nice language to look at -- Lisp is so remarkably dry > > and distasteful. > > What have you ever done in LISP? The same stuff that everyone had to do in uni, I guess. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 20:23:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59DB15097 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA01229; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:46:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:46:07 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: cjclark@home.com Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , kuehl@lgk.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FSF code & ownership In-Reply-To: <199905130247.WAA11499@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, Crist J. Clark wrote: > G. Adam Stanislav wrote, > [snip] > > He, too, got away with copyright, replacing it with copyleft: Anything a > > programmer writes does not belong to its creator but to society at large. > > Once a programmer releases code under GPL, he gives away all rights to it > > for the ephemeric benefit of all. Even the original author is not permitted > > to reuse his own code, except under GPL forever. > > Hmmm... I do not see how that can be true. The _original_ programmer, > the orginial copyright holder, cannot use his own code anyway he would > like? Sure, the copies of the code that are already out there are > really 'out there' and cannot be retroactively un-GNUed, but I don't > see how the original author is prevented from licensing a derivative > work, or even an unmodified version, anyway he sees fit. I think that for code to be accepted as "official FSF code" the right of it must be signed over to the FSF. Simply, you loose ownership of the code. I think if you look at some of the entries in various GNU code contribution FAQs it will explain this. http://www.fsf.org/prep/standards_4.html --- Accepting Contributions If the program you are working on is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation, then when someone else sends you a piece of code to add to the program, we need legal papers to use it--just as we asked you to sign papers initially. Each person who makes a nontrivial contribution to a program must sign some sort of legal papers in order for us to have clear title to the program; the main author alone is not enough. ... --- Or am I mistaken? This is also why it's such a pain to contribute to FSF code, there's a lot of paper work that must be completed for even small patches. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 20:32: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF3C14DAB for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:31:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA11617; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:32:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199905130332.XAA11617@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town In-Reply-To: <000001be9ced$06e0a380$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> from David Schwartz at "May 12, 99 08:02:24 pm" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Cc: cjclark@home.com, adam@whizkidtech.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote, > > > IMHO, GNU has a place in the world. I personally don't go to the > > extreme that _all_ software should be GNU, but I do think that the > > existence of GNU or a foundation actively trying to increase the pool > > of GNU software is not evil. It's just another choice for people who > > write programs. > > The evil comes from two sources. First, there are programmers who GPL their > code without a clear understanding of what they're doing. I don't see how some people's ignorance can be blamed on GNU. It's like blaming the gun manufaturer for someone being shot, or the cigarette maker for someone getting cancer... oh, wait, we do blame that on them now-a-days. > Second, GNU is not > just about voluntarily licensing one's source code under certain terms, it's > also about legal changes that aim to eliminate the entire concept of > intellectual property. GNU _is_ about destroying much of the capitalist rewards for owning intellectual property of computer programs. That is why I do not feel it is for everybody. Earning profit from your work or being motivated by economic rewards is not evil. But I don't think someone who authors a program and does not want someone else using their work to earn a quick buck is evil either. If they instead wants everyone to be able to have the code and use it for free... how can that be bad? One point about GPL though, it is very specific about maintaining the ownership of the code, or more aptly put, maintaining the 'credit' for the work... not that the love, affection, adoration, and admiration of those who use your code will pay the bills. > It is my firm belief that the net effect of GNU and the GPL/GLL is to > decrease the quality of software and create many 'everybody loses' > scenarios. I have personally seen this happen too many times to count. > > For example, just recently a project I was involved in required a database > much like 'gdbm'. There were a few features that we needed that gdbm did not > offer, and had we decided to use gdbm, we would gladly have made those > enhancements available to the community -- our product is not a database, so > there would be no competitive issues. > > However, gdbm's license was, unfortunately, too restrictive for us. As a > result, so we developed an in-house database on top of proprietary base > code, the path of least resistance for us. > > It's not as good as gdbm would have been with our improvements. The > community will not benefit from our effort, since even if we wanted to > release the database, we don't have the rights to relase the core code we > built it on. > > Everybody loses. This is typical. This is intentional. It is intentional. But Stallman would say that the fault lies not with GNU but with the proprietary software you were forced to use. Funny thing here is, if there was no GNU, how would this outcome have been any different? Would you still have most likely ended up with proprietary software? Out of curiousity, what was too restrictive about gdbm's license if you would have made the code changes freely available? -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 20:44:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A66514DAB for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:44:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:44:34 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Cc: , Subject: RE: Richard Stallman came to town Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:44:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be9cf2$ea4c4c00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199905130332.XAA11617@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't see how some people's ignorance can be blamed on GNU. It's > like blaming the gun manufaturer for someone being shot, or the > cigarette maker for someone getting cancer... oh, wait, we do blame > that on them now-a-days. If gun makers knowingly sold guns to people who didn't know how to use them, it would be logical to hold them responsible. If cigarette makers represented their cigarettes as safe to smoke while knowing they weren't, it would be logical to hold them responsible. I'm very curious why cigarette makers don't just come clean and say that smoking can kill you. If you smoke cigarettes, you are taking a risk. Many people knowingly take risks for pleasure, it's much like skiing. There is a big difference between responsibility for actions taken with full knowledge, and responsibility for duping people into making decisions without full knowledge. > > Everybody loses. This is typical. This is intentional. > > It is intentional. But Stallman would say that the fault lies not with GNU > but with the proprietary software you were forced to use. If he said that, it'd be awfully strange. Does he think there's something wrong with refusing to require your customers to accept software with disclaimers? > Funny thing > here is, if there was no GNU, how would this outcome have been any > different? Would you still have most likely ended up with proprietary > software? Umm, no. It is my belief that many people GPL/GLL their code out of ignorance. If not for the GPL/GLL they'd have released their code under less restrictive terms, and then more people could use it and benefit from it. > Out of curiousity, what was too restrictive about gdbm's license if > you would have made the code changes freely available? b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License. 3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following: a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) Our legal department will not accept any 'forced speech' and will not permit us to foist any disclaimers upon our customers. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 20:50:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BF914DAB for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 20:50:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA99036; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:47:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-Reply-To: <000101be9cee$72a70310$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > The point is, while it's possible for someone who can't code to come up > > with some great idea, it's seldom happened. > > Perhaps this is something unique to FreeBSD then. The vast > majority of the good product ideas I have ever heard came from > 'mere' users of the product. It's possible our experiences differ. I'm mainly interested in OS work, and I tend to ignore much user stuff. Could that be it? At least in OS work, what comes from users are "I like this" and "I don't like that", not "do it this way". The folks who chime in with requests for huge coding projects, and get insulted when everyone else doesn't want to drop all their doing and work on their pet projects do not get my respect. This happens fairly often. > I'm not saying you have to cater to people. I'm not saying you > have to be helpful. I'm saying don't be positively unhelpful and > dishonest. And "If you think that's such a good idea, why don't you > code it?" is sarcastic and dishonest. Why do you think I owe you code work? If I want to do something, and I CAN do it, an dyou want to do something else, and you CAN'T do it, it seems to me to be pretty clear, who is going to get priority. > Saying, "this is not the forum for batting ideas around" is > nothing at all like "if you think that this is such a good idea, why > don't you code it?". Why are you attempting to equate them? Because you are asking others to do your coding for you. Aren't you embarrassed to ask others to do your work for you? Such things would embarrass me. FreeBSD is written by volunteers, not paid folks. They code what they want to code, and NOT what you want them to. They listen to the general populace wants, but what they code is their decision. In saying "why don't you code it?", they're trying to get you to understand the difference in the FreeBSD development process. It's developer-driven. It's only user-driven indirectly. You may not like that, but it does in fact reflect reality. By the way, where's the sarcasm in "why don't you code it?" I'm not being sarcastic here, I mean it, how come you take that so harshly? I honestly can't see why. > I'm the Director of Coding for the DALnet IRC Network, and I > made a rule for our coding list -- if you ever say "if that's such > an idea, why don't you code it?" in the middle of a debate over the > merits of a feature, you lose your posting privileges. And I'm as > tired of bad ideas coming from people who can't code as anyone. I > even don't mind "that's a bad idea, but you wouldn't be able to > understand why." At least, it's honest. Yes, but you're not running a develop-driven open source free coding project. Your viewpoint is different. There is no one person in your position, to hand down fiats. The folks in control are the developers, and it's done by and for the developers. Concentrate on the idea that it's developer driven. Perhaps that's at the base of your argument? You think it is, or maybe should be, more user driven? If so, maybe it's right. Of course, then, I and most of the folks that write the code would leave. The rest could hold arguments about how they'd like to have things coded. Don't read this last paragraph as sarcastic, it's not meant that way; it does reflect the truth, I think. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 21: 1:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8DE14D91 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:01:15 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Chuck Robey" Cc: Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:01:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be9cf5$3ee86210$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If so, maybe it's right. Of course, then, I and most of the folks that > write the code would leave. The rest could hold arguments about how > they'd like to have things coded. Don't read this last paragraph as > sarcastic, it's not meant that way; it does reflect the truth, I think. Part of this is also the difference between a commercial and a free project. But I think that to the extent that you believe your own argument, you lend credibility to those who say that FreeBSD and Linux won't be able to compete in the corporate arena because what's coded is what the developers want, rather than what the users want/need. I don't know all the answers. I know that argument is wrong, and I think your argument is right. I'm just not sure how it is that those things reconcile. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 21:34:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2842614FB8 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA67907; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "David Schwartz" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 May 1999 20:12:35 PDT." <000101be9cee$72a70310$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:34:37 -0700 Message-ID: <67903.926570077@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Perhaps this is something unique to FreeBSD then. The vast majority of the > good product ideas I have ever heard came from 'mere' users of the product. This would be true except for the fact that just about all the "good ideas" have pretty much been suggested already. FreeBSD should have better desktop support, FreeBSD should support laptops, someone should make unionfs/lfs/devfs/yaddayaddafs work, FreeBSD should have a better default look-and-feel for the X setup, FreeBSD should make everything be a package rather than just the add-on bits. These are all good ideas which have also been suggested at least, oh, 500 or 600 times. :-) What we lack is the manpower to go DO those things and this is why many developers now take the attitude of "fine idea, now GO DO IT PLEASE", not because they want to be arrogant a**holes but because they're just good and sick of hearing the same set of good ideas repeated over and over but not seeing any hands actually raised to go off and do the actual work. It's also a sad fact that many users won't take "fine idea, but we lack the time to do this" as a final answer, coming back instead with lots of "but it should be SIMPLE! LINUX DOES THIS!" sorts of rebuttals which do not endear them to us at all. For a lot of developers, they don't even want to be bothered any more if the suggestion doesn't have diffs appended to it. Good ideas we have lying around in heaps, just waiting for someone to implement them. Implementors, rather less. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 21:40:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E60155DB for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:40:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA67936; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:40:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "David Schwartz" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 May 1999 21:01:14 PDT." <000001be9cf5$3ee86210$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:40:06 -0700 Message-ID: <67932.926570406@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > you lend credibility to those who say that FreeBSD and Linux won't be able > to compete in the corporate arena because what's coded is what the > developers want, rather than what the users want/need. I don't see it that way so much as the simple fact that a lot of users basically need to change the way they think of themselves, period, and that's simply the name of that tune. Users have been conditioned by commercial software into becoming "consumers" rather than seeing this free software stuff for what it is; the software equivalent of a community building a new meeting hall through group effort. If the community just sits around in their houses and periodically calls the meeting hall committee to ask how construction is going, they wouldn't be particularly surprised to hear that the answer was continually: "Terrible, where the hell are you guys?!" With software, for some reason, many people have yet to make that perceptual leap. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 21:46:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFCA151BD for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:46:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA06022; Thu, 13 May 1999 00:46:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:46:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Richard Stallman came to town In-Reply-To: <000001be9cf2$ea4c4c00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > If gun makers knowingly sold guns to people who didn't know how to use > them, it would be logical to hold them responsible. If cigarette > makers represented their cigarettes as safe to smoke while knowing > they weren't, it would be logical to hold them responsible. Please don't forget the auto-makers who sell these lethal machines to idiots who careen about and endanger others on the road with their 4 ton 'offroad' vehicles. "Never attribute to malice..." -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 22:40:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E63415150 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem23.masternet.it [194.184.65.33]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id HAA08308; Thu, 13 May 1999 07:40:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990513072954.016ebb10@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:38:02 +0200 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: current doesn't have seat belts or air bags. Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <68427.926573258@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12/05/99, you wrote: >> It's certainly not because of the helping hands that have been >> extended to him. > >-current doesn't come with seat belts or air bags. If you're looking >for a helping hand rather than a ranger combat course where people >just boot you in the ass whenever you fall into the mud, go next >door to -stable please. :-) I am not screaming for help, I think FreeBSD has a problem and I have reported it. The next time I'll report better, now that I have learned what DDB is ... If you see mine are the only traces appared here (and I copied it all by hand :-) ... And in the meantime perhaps I have also understand that it is a problem regarding tty :-) Ranger forever :-) Thanks again for your time. P.s. Please don't stress -current users with such silly things, let's move in chat :-) ? Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 22:42:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F66615174 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:42:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10506; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:41:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990512233737.0441e410@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:41:23 -0600 To: cjclark@home.com, adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: kuehl@lgk.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905130247.WAA11499@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <19990512195044.B217@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:47 PM 5/12/99 -0400, Crist J. Clark wrote: >Hmmm... I do not see how that can be true. The _original_ programmer, >the orginial copyright holder, cannot use his own code anyway he would >like? Sure, the copies of the code that are already out there are >really 'out there' and cannot be retroactively un-GNUed, but I don't >see how the original author is prevented from licensing a derivative >work, or even an unmodified version, anyway he sees fit. He may have the right to, but there's no point; no one will license functionality that users now expect to be free. >Huh? What's to stop that same kid from writing a copycat program and >distributing it as Shareware, under other Freeware licensing, or even >putting it in public domain. It's called "getting paid." The GPLed product has poisoned the well; forget about being able to make money from such a product. >I personally don't go to the >extreme that _all_ software should be GNU, but I do think that the >existence of GNU or a foundation actively trying to increase the pool >of GNU software is not evil. It's certainly destructive. It poisons markets and deprives programmers of their livelihoods. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 23:22:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0056615397 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:22:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:22:30 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Subject: RE: Richard Stallman came to town Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:22:29 -0700 Message-ID: <000501be9d08$fa4bbf80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 12 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > If gun makers knowingly sold guns to people who didn't know how to use > > them, it would be logical to hold them responsible. If cigarette > > makers represented their cigarettes as safe to smoke while knowing > > they weren't, it would be logical to hold them responsible. > > Please don't forget the auto-makers who sell these lethal machines to > idiots who careen about and endanger others on the road with their 4 ton > 'offroad' vehicles. > > "Never attribute to malice..." Cars seem to be an amazing anomaly. If when they were invented, anyone could anticipate the death tolls of today, I wonder if the government would have put so much money into covering so much of our country in tar. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 12 23:22:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7103153A0 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:22:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:22:31 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: Richard Stallman came to town Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:22:30 -0700 Message-ID: <000601be9d08$faf03ce0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-reply-to: <4.2.0.37.19990512233737.0441e410@localhost> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just want to note publically, that while I too believe that GNU/GPL/GLL are evil, it is not at all for the reasons that Brett Glass does. I am not afraid that other people giving their software away will reduce the market for my software. I have no fear of competition. I don't believe in the 'poisoning the well' theory. I have no objection to people willfully and knowingly giving away what is theirs. My opposition to the GLL/GPL is strictly because it is specifically designed to reduce the quality of commercial software. In many cases, in fact, it has even reduced the quality of 'competing' free software. See my more specific comments below: > At 10:47 PM 5/12/99 -0400, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > >Hmmm... I do not see how that can be true. The _original_ programmer, > >the orginial copyright holder, cannot use his own code anyway he would > >like? Sure, the copies of the code that are already out there are > >really 'out there' and cannot be retroactively un-GNUed, but I don't > >see how the original author is prevented from licensing a derivative > >work, or even an unmodified version, anyway he sees fit. > > He may have the right to, but there's no point; no one will license > functionality that users now expect to be free. Umm, that's just not true. I've written several products that compete with 'free' products, and I've had no problems. You just have to make your product better. But you'd have to do that if the competing products were commercial. When corporations compare, for example, NT to FreeBSD, the cost of the OS is rarely a major factor. Few real software purchases are cost sensitive, because the value of the software is so much higher than its cost. > >Huh? What's to stop that same kid from writing a copycat program and > >distributing it as Shareware, under other Freeware licensing, or even > >putting it in public domain. > > It's called "getting paid." The GPLed product has poisoned the well; > forget about being able to make money from such a product. Bullshit. I don't see commercial databases like Oracle and Informix going away because of MySQL. I don't see NT going away because of FreeBSD or Linux. Competition simply raises the bar, and thus the quality. It's good. Imagine if I'm choosing between two products, and I value my time at $60 an hour. Product A is free, but will take me two more hours to setup, configure, and maintain. Product B is $100, but has a nicer installer and management interface. Which will I use? > >I personally don't go to the > >extreme that _all_ software should be GNU, but I do think that the > >existence of GNU or a foundation actively trying to increase the pool > >of GNU software is not evil. > > It's certainly destructive. It poisons markets and deprives programmers > of their livelihoods. Please. I don't see any programmers suffering. I don't see any restaurants going out of business because of soup kitchens. "Protect me from competition" is the cry of the mediocre. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 0:34:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24CF1153C0 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 00:34:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA30057; Thu, 13 May 1999 00:34:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:34:26 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: Last Call! May BAFUG head count Message-ID: <19990513003425.A30038@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 0:53:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8438414D5B for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 00:53:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA05048; Thu, 13 May 1999 00:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905130751.AAA05048@implode.root.com> To: Chuck Robey Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 May 1999 22:59:11 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:51:25 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Are you aware that all the main FreeBSD core guys used to hang out on >hackers, and even answer questions on -questions? People pusing ideas >like yours, who think they should be catered to at everyone else's >expense, drove all of them away. It wastes the time of the folks who >CAN do it. I, for one, don't appreciate that. I was real unhappy, the >day that David Greenman left -questions and hackers, but I didn't blame >him a bit. I've never left -hackers or -questions. I'm even on -chat and this combined with the NetBSD lists that I'm on, I get a total of more than a thousand emails a day now. It takes me at least 2 hours per day to deal with this and definately sucks away valuable time, but I keep with it because I think it is important, especially for me as the "principal architect", to stay in touch with people. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 1:50:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EFD1543B for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 01:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA68909; Thu, 13 May 1999 01:49:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: current doesn't have seat belts or air bags. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 13 May 1999 07:38:02 +0200." <4.1.19990513072954.016ebb10@194.184.65.4> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:49:47 -0700 Message-ID: <68905.926585387@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I am not screaming for help, I think FreeBSD has a problem and I have > reported it. I didn't say that you were or mean to imply it - I was actually responding to *Greg's* implicit complaint with my comments. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 3:18:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B330D15431 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 03:17:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:15:51 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Richard Stallman came to town Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:15:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: David Schwartz [mailto:davids@webmaster.com] > Sent: 13 May 1999 04:45 > To: cjclark@home.com > Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: RE: Richard Stallman came to town > > > > > I don't see how some people's ignorance can be blamed on GNU. It's > > like blaming the gun manufaturer for someone being shot, or the > > cigarette maker for someone getting cancer... oh, wait, we do blame > > that on them now-a-days. > > If gun makers knowingly sold guns to people who didn't > know how to use > them, it would be logical to hold them responsible. If > cigarette makers > represented their cigarettes as safe to smoke while knowing > they weren't, it > would be logical to hold them responsible. > > I'm very curious why cigarette makers don't just come > clean and say that > smoking can kill you. If you smoke cigarettes, you are taking > a risk. Many > people knowingly take risks for pleasure, it's much like skiing. In the UK they are required by law to print "Smoking can kill" on the packs and on all advertising materials. I think there are other messages as well but that's the most clear :-) Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 3:22:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6700F154B7 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 03:22:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 574 invoked by uid 1003); 13 May 1999 10:22:12 -0000 Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:22:12 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Message-ID: <19990513122212.A129@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from paul@originative.co.uk on Thu, May 13, 1999 at 11:15:46AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 1999-05-13 (11:15), paul@originative.co.uk wrote: > In the UK they are required by law to print "Smoking can kill" on the packs > and on all advertising materials. I think there are other messages as well > but that's the most clear :-) And all the guys making sure they get the ones that say "Pregnant? Smoking can harm your baby" packs in preference to the ones that can harm them, as opposed to pregnant women. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 4: 3:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD4714CC1 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 04:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00162; Thu, 13 May 1999 07:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:01:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-Reply-To: <000001be9cf5$3ee86210$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > If so, maybe it's right. Of course, then, I and most of the folks that > > write the code would leave. The rest could hold arguments about how > > they'd like to have things coded. Don't read this last paragraph as > > sarcastic, it's not meant that way; it does reflect the truth, I think. > > Part of this is also the difference between a commercial and a free > project. But I think that to the extent that you believe your own argument, > you lend credibility to those who say that FreeBSD and Linux won't be able > to compete in the corporate arena because what's coded is what the > developers want, rather than what the users want/need. > > I don't know all the answers. I know that argument is wrong, > and I think your argument is right. I'm just not sure how it is that > those things reconcile. OK. Much of what I'm going to say here is pure opinion, understand; I don't hold it forth as fact (like I did the top paragraph). The situation that I *think* you want, where the users do the controlling, doesn't now and never did exist. I've worked for enough companies to know that you code for your boss, not the public, and what the boss wants very often has nearly nothing at all to do with that which the public is clamoring for. There are isolated cases where the connection between want and need is closer, but it's not the rule. My, that sound cynical. The point I'm want to make is the comparison of free projects. operating as they do by and for the developer, and commercial projects, very often operating by and for the boss. For both, how well they actually offer what the user wants is in no way a direct thing. The point I want to make here is what while its not a direct thing, they both do tend to offer a close facsimile of what the public wants. Let me repeat that: they are neither directly driven by what the public wants, but they both serve that function anyway. In your paragraph above, you assume that developers will do drastically wrong things, and that commercial interests will do drastically right ones. Perhaps I'm putting words in your mouth? Try your top paragraph again, maybe I'll agree closer. The one thing developers won't do (and the single thing I abhor most about commercial interests) is be monpolistic. I detest Microsoft for that reason, and wouldn't work for them, no matter how much lucre they offered. > > DS > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 5:58:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A4114C48 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 05:58:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id WAA10333; Thu, 13 May 1999 22:58:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (4.1) id xma010326; Thu, 13 May 99 22:57:59 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02454; Thu, 13 May 1999 22:57:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29277; Thu, 13 May 1999 22:57:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13394; Thu, 13 May 1999 22:57:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199905131257.WAA13394@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town References: <4.2.0.37.19990512112347.00c48300@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990512112347.00c48300@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Wed, 12 May 1999 11:28:50 -0600" Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:57:58 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 12th May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >Sorry, but it sounds as if you've bought Stallman's line of propaganda >rather than what he really thinks. These come out better in a one-on-one >conversation. He really does bear malice toward anyone who seeks to >profit from intellectual property, and often states his intent to destroy >that with which he does not agree. He has merely honed his public message >to produce the desired effect on an audience, like a corrupt preacher >who preaches charity and chastity but then embezzles from the collection >plate and has illicit affairs. I can only report my first-hand observations. As a number of people have written, some of his personal habits are disconcerting, almost bizarre. But that did not stop me listening to what he said. What he said was very close to the software version of "Love thy neighbour", and if he secretly harbours a desire to destroy anyone, that did not come through in the slightest. He distinguished his position from everyone in a quite pedantic way, and argued against them, but never simply bad mouthed them. In some sense it doesn't matter if he has secret destructive urges as I won't be acting on things he didn't say, and the things he did say can be evaluated on their merits. I am glad that I've had this opportunity to hear his words directly without editorial tinkering or the addition of another person's spin. Another reason I'm not that concerned is that I can't see GNU destroying proprietary software. At best we will be able to maintain a useful bubble of free software (GPL and non-GPL) against a sea of non-free software. The "maniacal" leader of half of a small bit of something might cause a little trouble, but he will not be the main problem for many people. To those who fear Stallman like communism, you should relax! Communism makes bad economic sense, but unrestrained capitalism is fatal as well. I'm happy to see someone trying their hardest to keep our version of capitalism from becoming total capitalism. And I'm even happier knowing he'll never succeed in killing it entirely. Remember that it's the dictatorship in conjunction with the bad economics of communism that caused the suffering. A democracy in charge of mostly-capitialism is the best social system that I know of, but total capitalism is incompatible with democracy. Stallman is encouraging people to act based on non-monetary motivations. It's good to have some of that. And finally, thanks to those who liked my report! I tried to preserve the flavour of meeting such a controversial figure. But I don't think you need be concerned about a repeat performance, unless perhaps I am visited by Jordan, or the Pope, or maybe the Queen. Stephen. PS I'm sorry I started another GPL vs BSD flame war. Forgive me... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 7:44:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3461914C57; Thu, 13 May 1999 07:44:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7CAF94034; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 78C6C9A19; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:44:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: hakcers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Sorry Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Damnit, I sent that last rant to the wrong list, it was supposed to go to chat. Please direct all followups to chat. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 7:50:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2655C14D4E for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 07:50:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id DA68E4036; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CACAF9A1A for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:50:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I sent this to hackers originally by mistake. So I am forwarding it here. If you see it on hackers, please redirect followups here. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:43:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD, GPL, the world today. I've been doing a little thinking on the whole Proprietary vs. GPL vs. BSD licensing issue. Stallman's wrong, Brett's wrong, Gates is wrong, hell everyobody's wrong. Now that I have your attention, let me continue. The biggest problem I see with software today, as an admin (read, bridge between users and vendors), is the refusal of vendors to take responsibilty for their products. Microsoft seems to be the biggest practitioner of this, but they didn't start it. For a free product to offer no warranty of suitability it perfectly understandable. For commercial software, it should be totally unacceptable. Unfortunately, it's the norm. Everyday, vendors release software that's broken in some way or other. Fine, I know there is no such thing as bug free software. The vendor's refusal to fix their product without 'buying' the upgrade is unacceptable. Again, Microsoft seems to be the biggest practitioner of this, and as the largest OS vendor on the planet, fosters it in others. How can Caldera, or Ipswitch, or Oracle guarantee their products whey then run on top of faulty software? They can't. Someone with lots of free time and money needs to go after Gates and company for failure to deliver. I don't care what the EULA reads, I don't seriously believe they can knowingly sell and refuse to fix a faulty product and get away with it anymore than GM can. Just because it doesn't result in fiery crashes doesn't make it any better (although, with MS going after the embedded systems market, even this may not be true much longer). You lost a relative due to faulty parts, I lost millions due to faulty software. Everyone lost. Everyone is losing. FreeBSD, the other BSD's, and Linux all have someone's reputation riding on them, which seems to be a deciding factor in bugs getting hammered into the ground as they get found. Commercial software offers no such public billboard as to who wrote that horrible bit of code. It's a shame really. Microsoft Tech. Support tells you to upgrade, it'll be fixed, while their fearless leader is simultaneously saying upgrades are for features, not bug fixes, and that no one would upgrade just to fix bugs. I think perhaps he is so lost to the needs of his customers and reality in general that he can no longer speak for them. Money will do that. Oh well, I suppose I'm done ranting for now. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 8: 0:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D661523F for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 08:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r36.bfm.org [208.18.213.132]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA28329; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990513095905.00955e10@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:59:05 -0500 To: cjclark@home.com From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905130247.WAA11499@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <19990512195044.B217@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22:47 12-05-1999 -0400, Crist J. Clark wrote: >Hmmm... I do not see how that can be true. The _original_ programmer, >the orginial copyright holder, cannot use his own code anyway he would >like? Sure, the copies of the code that are already out there are >really 'out there' and cannot be retroactively un-GNUed, but I don't >see how the original author is prevented from licensing a derivative >work, or even an unmodified version, anyway he sees fit. To quote from the license: "To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions that forbid anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights." Notice the word "anyone." That includes the original author, at least until there is a court decision or an explicit disclaimer from SFS to the contrary. Lacking a court decision, the license can be interpreted as prohibitng the original author from licensing a derivative work, or even an unmodified version, anyway he sees fit. Legal language is subtle. If you release your software under GNU licence and reuse your software outside the scope of the GNU license, you are opening yourself up to the possibility of being sued. Even if you'd win, the hassle is not worth it. And just because it never happened does not mean it cannot. Stranger things have happened in legal history. Right now you can argue either way, which is precisely the problem. You do not know which way a court would side. Now, I wish I could place the popular disclaimer that I am not a lawyer. I am not an attorney in the country I live in, but I am a lawyer, i.e. I have a degree in Law from world's oldest school ever to grant such a degree: The Gregorian University in Rome (technically part of the Vatican State). >Huh? What's to stop that same kid from writing a copycat program and >distributing it as Shareware, under other Freeware licensing, or even >putting it in public domain. Again, how does GNU directly affect this? The difference is that the same kid would be acting as an individual. He might be competing with a single program, not the whole system. He might be perceived as a nuisance at best but not a big enough threat to stop people from continuing innovation in software industry at large. GNU does directly affect this. They have a web site where they have clearly declared their ideology which states that anyone who does not release software under their terms is taking away their freedom. >Also, if it's easy to do, why can't another economically motivated >party redevelop your idea? Isn't that what Microsoft Windows did to >the Macintosh (after Apple took the idea from Xerox)? Last I checked, >Windows is not GNU. I did mention Microsoft as doing the same thing at the opposite extreme. One wrong does not justify another. GNU and MS are two sides of the same coin. >Anyone in creative circles must have a certain fear of that. Does the >musician live in fear that he's unconciously copying a song he heard >as a child? Again, this issue is not unique to GNU. It is completely different. GNU says you MAY copy but you MUST become one of them. "Resistence is futile, you will be assimilated." Besides, the music business has had court decisions. Their rules are clearly spelled out. Ours are all gray. >Actually this is not as much of a concern with software. An algorithm >cannot be copywritten, it has to be patented. If you look at GNU to >see how something works, then write your own implementation from >scratch using the same method, that is not (necesarily) a copyright >violation. Oh, I think advertising execs would disagree that an algorithm cannot be copywritten. :-) But I am going to assume you meant it could not be copyrighted. That, of course is true. You cannot copyright ideas, but you can copyright implementations of the ideas. And, how many ways can you write down "for (i = 0; i < MAX; i++)"? If you were to believe FSF claims, once you see that in GNU licensed code, you can never use it in your own programs unless you release it under GNU license. Seems absurd? Well, that's the whole point. GNU is absurd. >Did BSD invent all of these tools (well, maybe a few ;)? And again, >copycatting of these tools could and does exist without GNU (afterall, >what are FreeBSD tools but copycats or descendents of these same >things). They are not copycats. When BSD wrote an assembler (substitute any tool you want) for BSD, it was an original tool in that it was written for BSD. They wrote the tools for BSD because such tools did not exist for BSD. Yes, FreeBSD is a descendent of BSD. It is not a copycat. It was not written with the intent of throwing BSD out of business. The project was started to continue the work of BSD when BSD no longer continued their work. As far as I know, BSD (i.e., Berkeley Software Development, the group, not their code) does not even exist anymore. FreeBSD is not going against BSD, nor does it perceive BSD as the enemy of human freedom. Quite the contrary. FreeBSD continues the work started by BSD. It does not copy it, it enhances it. It evolves it. It modernizes it. Most importantly, FreeBSD has NEVER said: We are right and everyone else is wrong. FreeBSD does not say that everyone should switch to FreeBSD. FreeBSD does not say people should drive commercial developers out of business. And it certainly does not make the most absurd claim FSF keeps making, namely that programmers can earn their living by giving out all of their software away. Nor does it say everyone should stop using Windows or Linux (all that despite the fact there is one person in our midst who constantly gets into Jordan's hair for NOT doing that). >IMHO, GNU has a place in the world. I personally don't go to the >extreme that _all_ software should be GNU, but I do think that the >existence of GNU or a foundation actively trying to increase the pool >of GNU software is not evil. It's just another choice for people who >write programs. I never said GNU was evil. All I am saying is that just because Stallman is intelligent does not mean he automatically deserves our respect. I see his ideas as absurd, especially when the idea of society owning the fruit of everyone's labor has been proven wrong during the Communist "experiment." And I disagree that it is "just another choice." GNU has a clearly stated agenda, and it wants their choice to be the one and only choice. It has all elements of cult: a charismatic leader, an ideology, subtle brainwashing, and an us-versus-them mentality. And that is scary. Just my two nickels worth (statement adjusted for taxes and inflation). Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 8:41: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D66814DB6 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 08:40:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id IAA21670 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 08:40:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.8 1999/04/16 15:25:49 steved Exp steved $) with ESMTP id IAA27413 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 08:40:58 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-To: X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id LAA25928; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:40:58 -0400 (EDT) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14138.62089.249839.692489@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:40:57 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FUD ... in massive proportions ... X-Mailer: VM 6.70 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm sure alot of you saw this on /. ... http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw/nt4vLinux.asp WOW what a bunch of FUD ... I'd love to see how ftp.cdrom.com would hold up if the same hardware was used with NT 4.0 ... -NOT- Sheeesh .... -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds CEG, CCE, Next Generation Flows, HLA | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 8:47: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C34614DB6 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 08:46:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C00644037; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA06D9A1A; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:47:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dennis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. In-Reply-To: <199905131530.LAA04222@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 May 1999, Dennis wrote: :At 10:43 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: :> :>I've been doing a little thinking on the whole Proprietary vs. GPL vs. BSD :>licensing issue. Stallman's wrong, Brett's wrong, Gates iswrong, hell :>everyobody's wrong. :> :>Now that I have your attention, let me continue. The biggest problem I :>see with software today, as an admin (read, bridge between users and :>vendors), is the refusal of vedors to take responsibilty for their :>products. Microsoft seems to be the biggest practitioner of this, but :>they didn't start it. : :Actually, you are wrong. All software has bugs, therefore it is :unreasonable for consumers to assume that software that they buy has no :bugs. Bugs are part of the deal. Had you read the whole thing, you would have seen that I am aware of the fact that software has bugs. An acceptable inevitability. What is unacceptable is the refusal of vendors to fix their broken fucking software for less than a small fortune, if they are even willing. Don't let your knee hit you in the face when it jerks like that. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 9: 6:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C1A14FAA for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 09:06:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14539; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:05:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:05:44 -0600 To: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:50 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: >Now that I have your attention, let me continue. The biggest problem I >see with software today, as an admin (read, bridge between users and >vendors), is the refusal of vendors to take responsibilty for their >products. Microsoft seems to be the biggest practitioner of this, but >they didn't start it. Actually, Jamie, this reflects a still larger problem. The way coding is done today, companies CAN'T take responsibility for their products, because they HONESTLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO EVALUATE QUALITY OR BUILD IT IN THE FIRST TIME. Programming today is done with poor and rusty tools that admit themselves to all kinds of errors -- yet we haven't replaced them with tools that prevent those errors. We're still slicing off our fingers with rusty circular saws without blade guards. That's why new buffer overflow exploits, for example, are discovered daily -- even though the problem has been known for decades now. Open source tries to solve this problem by brute force: Apply enough eyes to the source code, and hopefully the problems will be caught by the White Hats before the Black Hats exploit them. But the Black Hats are more motivated to win the race, so they often do. The White Hats are motivated by pride in their work (the existence of a bug or exploit doesn't REALLY seem to damage peoples reputations in the open source world so long as they fix it), which isn't as strong a motivation. Of course, the correct solution to the problem is to build proper tools for crafting and analyzing code (goodbye, C and C++!) and to train our programmers in good coding techniques. (Most bugs can be boiled down to the same dozen or so common programming or architectural mistakes.) Will it happen? Not the way things are going. But software quality is not a licensing issue. Open source is, again, one way of attempting to brute force the problem rather than solving it ab initio. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 9:18:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8444A1508D for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 09:18:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14664; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:18:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990513101355.0441ba80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:17:53 -0600 To: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: Stephen McKay In-Reply-To: <199905131257.WAA13394@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> References: <4.2.0.37.19990512112347.00c48300@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990512112347.00c48300@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:57 PM 5/13/99 +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: >I can only report my first-hand observations. As a number of people have >written, some of his personal habits are disconcerting, almost bizarre. >But that did not stop me listening to what he said. What he said was >very close to the software version of "Love thy neighbour", It does, but for a slightly different meaning of the word "love." ;-) Remember, what Richard wants is to see your source code. If he can't, he gets whiny and petulant and accuses you of being an "evil software hoarder." I seem to recall that hoarding food so that one was less susceptible to shortages was a crime in the old Soviet Union. >Another reason I'm not that concerned is that I can't see GNU destroying >proprietary software. It's already destroyed the market for C compilers. Heck, I'd be VERY willing to pay for a supported, commercial C compiler that was better than GCC and ran on FreeBSD. There will never be any such thing; GCC has poisoned the well. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 9:21: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw2adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47BAF14D25 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 09:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-14-155.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.14.155]) by mail-gw2adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10603; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:20:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19640; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:22:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:22:10 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Message-ID: <19990513112210.A19394@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, May 13, 1999 at 10:05:44AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 13, 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Of course, the correct solution to the problem is to build proper tools > for crafting and analyzing code (goodbye, C and C++!) and to train our > programmers in good coding techniques. (Most bugs can be boiled down to the > same dozen or so common programming or architectural mistakes.) Will > it happen? Not the way things are going. But software quality is not > a licensing issue. Open source is, again, one way of attempting to > brute force the problem rather than solving it ab initio. The solution to the problem of 'Black Hats' exploiting open source software before 'White Hats' can fix it is to learn how to code properly. If they did enough testing (I believe buffer overflow, formatting "bugs", etc), the problem would be much smaller. > --Brett Glass -- Chris Costello Design: The activity of preparing for a design review. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 9:29:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B50014C47 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 09:29:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14777; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:29:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990513102444.04697e40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:27:53 -0600 To: chris@calldei.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990513112210.A19394@holly.dyndns.org> References: <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:22 AM 5/13/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > The solution to the problem of 'Black Hats' exploiting open >source software before 'White Hats' can fix it is to learn how to >code properly. The problem is that open source is a volunteer effort, and skills vary widely. The tools must be built so as to prevent the errors from occurring in the first place, at least inasmuch as possible. There SHOULD NOT BE an sprintf() function in the C library, for example. In fact, I'll go farther and say that strings and arrays terminated by sentinels should be removed from computer languages. > If they did enough testing (I believe buffer >overflow, formatting "bugs", etc), the problem would be much >smaller. Quality must be built in, not tested in. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 9:35:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw2adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C1414C47 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 09:35:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-14-155.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.14.155]) by mail-gw2adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19925; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:35:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19693; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:37:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:37:14 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Message-ID: <19990513113714.B19394@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> <19990513112210.A19394@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.37.19990513102444.04697e40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990513102444.04697e40@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, May 13, 1999 at 10:27:53AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 13, 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > for example. In fact, I'll go farther and say that strings and > arrays terminated by sentinels should be removed from computer > languages. Also, integers should be only 4 bits, and bytes should only be 2 bits long. > > If they did enough testing (I believe buffer > >overflow, formatting "bugs", etc), the problem would be much > >smaller. > > Quality must be built in, not tested in. Everybody makes mistakes at one time another, but I generally agree with you there. > > --Brett Glass -- Chris Costello System going down at 5 pm to install scheduler bug. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 10: 1:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B9B14C47; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:01:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA06681; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <373B054F.998BA7FA@seattleu.edu> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:01:03 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner References: <19990513003507.CDA701501E@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > > > > How about Klingon? I doubt anyone would question how authentic your accent > > is ;-) > > how about gelf....i'll bring a handkerchief so that everyone > stays dry. ;P > Or Esperanto... -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 10:32: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8CA14C47 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15439; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:31:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990513105719.04696100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:31:38 -0600 To: chris@calldei.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990513113714.B19394@holly.dyndns.org> References: <4.2.0.37.19990513102444.04697e40@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> <19990513112210.A19394@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.37.19990513102444.04697e40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:37 AM 5/13/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: >Also, integers should be only 4 bits, and bytes should only be >2 bits long. Nothing personal, but the sentence above reflects a fear of safeguards that almost amounts to paranoia. It seems to have been instilled in many programmers that the ability to engage in well-known unsafe practices -- even if there are better and safer ways to do the same things -- is essential to being able to program at all. Making programming tools safe does not unduly limit them. To use an example from the world of carpentry: The circular saw is probably the most dangerous and poorly designed power tool. It's built the way it is not for the sake of the carpenter but for the sake of cheap manufacturing. (It's easy and inexpensive to attach a circular blade directly to a simple induction motor.) The guard, while there usually is one present, only covers part of the blade. And the blade only penetrates to its full depth in the middle, so that one must run the saw out a substantial distance in front of and behind the work to get a full cut. Unlike a "worm gear saw," which puts the motor on the opposite side, it actually hides a good few of the work (and potential obstructions) from a right-handed carpenter. It kicks back and jams even when used properly, and has no protection against slicing through its own electrical cord. The sole plate is difficult to square to the blade, so most cuts made with a circular saw aren't quite straight. Yet, even though table saws, band saws, reciprocating saws, and even water jet saws do a much better job in most applications, the circular saw is the most common type of electrically powered saw anywhere. Why? Mainly because it's cheap and readily available -- sort of like C. What's really scary, though, is that some carpenters I've seen are foolish enough to remove the partial, retractable blade guard that DOES come with the circular saw. Or to jam the safety latch on the power switch open. These are usually the ones who are short a finger or two. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 10:32:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1ED14E44 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:32:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13768 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <373B0C90.1AC5485C@seattleu.edu> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:32:00 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FUD ... in massive proportions ... References: <14138.62089.249839.692489@hip186.ch.intel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Reynolds~ wrote: > > I'm sure alot of you saw this on /. ... > > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw/nt4vLinux.asp > > WOW what a bunch of FUD ... I'd love to see how ftp.cdrom.com would hold up > if the same hardware was used with NT 4.0 ... -NOT- > > Sheeesh .... Does Linux not support NIS? "No centralized security - users must manually synchronize user accounts across servers" I like the statement 37% less expensive...26% less expensive...27% less expensive. Where do they come up with these numbers? "Extensive internal and external beta testing to ensure binary compatibility across services and applications." So THATS why it took me 4 hours to figure out how to get a dos program running on NT4 that worked out of the box on a 95 machine. OOOH GUI BASED TOOLS!! Just how does NT have "Broad language support inlcuding java" when it has no C compiler, primitive batch scripting, no java compiler, no perl... -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 10:40:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56F215364 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:40:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA29764; Thu, 13 May 1999 13:03:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:03:47 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Of course, the correct solution to the problem is to build proper tools > for crafting and analyzing code (goodbye, C and C++!) and to train our > programmers in good coding techniques. (Most bugs can be boiled down to the > same dozen or so common programming or architectural mistakes.) Will > it happen? Not the way things are going. But software quality is not > a licensing issue. Open source is, again, one way of attempting to > brute force the problem rather than solving it ab initio. Y'know Brett, I've listened to a lot of what you've had to say, and I've agreed on many points, however by blasting C/C++ you've made a big mistake. I hereby banish you to the wasteland, please make sure you respect the carryon regulations, only 2 items. thank you, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 10:47:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726271532A for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-14-155.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.14.155]) by mail-gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12627; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:47:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA20046; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:48:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:48:42 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Message-ID: <19990513124842.A19831@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <4.2.0.37.19990513102444.04697e40@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> <19990513112210.A19394@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.37.19990513102444.04697e40@localhost> <19990513113714.B19394@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.37.19990513105719.04696100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990513105719.04696100@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, May 13, 1999 at 11:31:38AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 13, 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:37 AM 5/13/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > >Also, integers should be only 4 bits, and bytes should only be > >2 bits long. > > Nothing personal, but the sentence above reflects a fear of safeguards > that almost amounts to paranoia. It seems to have been instilled in > many programmers that the ability to engage in well-known unsafe > practices -- even if there are better and safer ways to do the > same things -- is essential to being able to program at all. Making > programming tools safe does not unduly limit them. I'm rarely paranoid, that was sarcasm. :) > What's really scary, though, is that some carpenters I've seen are > foolish enough to remove the partial, retractable blade guard that > DOES come with the circular saw. Or to jam the safety latch on the > power switch open. Moronic practices by the human "component" doesn't make the product any less good. I can use Unix to screw up my disk drives, does that mean Unix is a bad thing? > These are usually the ones who are short a finger or two. > > --Brett -- Chris Costello Computer Science: solving today's problems tomorrow. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 10:52:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA161528F for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15682; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:52:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990513114425.04421810@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:52:17 -0600 To: Alfred Perlstein From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:03 PM 5/13/99 -0500, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >Y'know Brett, I've listened to a lot of what you've had to say, and I've >agreed on many points, however by blasting C/C++ you've made a big mistake. Guess I'm attacking a "sacred cow." Sorry, but C and C++ are DEMONSTRABLY responsible for the lion's share of the bugs in today's software. >I hereby banish you to the wasteland, please make sure you respect the >carryon regulations, only 2 items. Should there be a buffer overflow, a skript kiddie will appear from your monitor's head and hit you with a cream pie. Oh, and by the way, what airline is this? Let's see, it's written on the \ side of the plane.... V-A-L-U-J-E-T.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 10:55: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B961E14D52 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:55:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15711; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:54:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990513115251.0441b4a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:53:40 -0600 To: chris@calldei.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990513124842.A19831@holly.dyndns.org> References: <4.2.0.37.19990513105719.04696100@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990513102444.04697e40@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> <19990513112210.A19394@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.37.19990513102444.04697e40@localhost> <19990513113714.B19394@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.37.19990513105719.04696100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:48 PM 5/13/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: >Moronic practices by the human "component" doesn't make the >product any less good. I can use Unix to screw up my disk >drives, does that mean Unix is a bad thing? Only if it does it without asking. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 10:56:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DD714EDA for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 10:56:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12567; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:56:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) with ESMTP id MAA18048; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:56:32 -0500 Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id MAA24623; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:56:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:56:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199905131756.MAA24623@free.pcs> To: brett@lariat.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >Yet, even though table saws, band saws, reciprocating saws, and even >water jet saws do a much better job in most applications, the circular >saw is the most common type of electrically powered saw anywhere. >Why? Mainly because it's cheap and readily available -- sort of like C. Also, the circular saw is easily portable and can be carried anywhere (even up on rooftops), much like C. :-) -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 11:16:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5F915166 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:16:22 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Chuck Robey" Cc: Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:16:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01be9d6c$b4dffec0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > OK. Much of what I'm going to say here is pure opinion, understand; I > don't hold it forth as fact (like I did the top paragraph). The > situation that I *think* you want, where the users do the controlling, > doesn't now and never did exist. I've worked for enough companies to > know that you code for your boss, not the public, and what the boss > wants very often has nearly nothing at all to do with that which the > public is clamoring for. There are isolated cases where the connection > between want and need is closer, but it's not the rule. > > My, that sound cynical. No, it sounds silly. In an organized project, someone makes the decision about which ideas turn into code and which don't. The extent to which that decision is or is not distributed varies. Almost always some such capacity remains with the programmers. There are many ways and reasons a project can fail. Code dictates that have little to do with 'customer' demand is a common one. But it's just as possible to fail because programmers code things that customers don't demand. The big issue is, when you are dealing with a non-commercial project, what is your definition of 'fail'? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 11:19:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8668150FE for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:19:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01576; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:16:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-Reply-To: <000a01be9d6c$b4dffec0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > OK. Much of what I'm going to say here is pure opinion, understand; I > > don't hold it forth as fact (like I did the top paragraph). The > > situation that I *think* you want, where the users do the controlling, > > doesn't now and never did exist. I've worked for enough companies to > > know that you code for your boss, not the public, and what the boss > > wants very often has nearly nothing at all to do with that which the > > public is clamoring for. There are isolated cases where the connection > > between want and need is closer, but it's not the rule. > > > > My, that sound cynical. > > No, it sounds silly. In an organized project, someone makes > the decision about which ideas turn into code and which don't. The > extent to which that decision is or is not distributed varies. > Almost always some such capacity remains with the programmers. > > There are many ways and reasons a project can fail. Code > dictates that have little to do with 'customer' demand is a common > one. But it's just as possible to fail because programmers code > things that customers don't demand. > > The big issue is, when you are dealing with a non-commercial > project, what is your definition of 'fail'? You've had different experience than I. In the places I worked, the boss said what to code, not the programmer. > > DS > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 11:23:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1825814C37 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:23:30 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Chuck Robey" Cc: Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:23:30 -0700 Message-ID: <001801be9d6d$b39783c0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You've had different experience than I. In the places I worked, the > boss said what to code, not the programmer. No, in all honesty, I think I'm just a better programmer than you and am more likely to be hired by people who appreciate my ability to make more important decisions. No offense. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 11:37:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC9E14C37; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:37:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id LAA28833; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:37:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.8 1999/04/16 15:25:49 steved Exp steved $) with ESMTP id LAA21494; Thu, 13 May 1999 11:37:50 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id OAA28959; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:37:50 -0400 (EDT) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14139.7164.841640.508301@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:37:48 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD's /stand/sysinstall looks nice ... X-Mailer: VM 6.70 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey there, Last night one of my more rabid Linux-nut friends coerced me to take a copy of the RedHat 6.0 boot floppy and CheapBytes CD's from him (he bought lots to give away to people ...). I told him I wasn't going to install it but I would at least boot the floppy and see if it detected all my hardware correctly and see what the install looked like. It did detect all my scsi stuff correctly as well as other things which was cool ... however, as 'cute' as RedHat's install is (with its 3D-push-me-in-text buttons) I have to take my hat off (no pun intended ;-) to the folks who contributed to /stand/sysinstall. I've used FreeBSD since 2.0 and the install "look-n-feel" has stayed consistent but yet improved on every release. I have to say that /stand/sysinstall looks "cleaner" to me than the RedHat install. No holy war, just one man's opinion ;-) Major Kudos to Jordan and all that make the install process not only work but look good and consistent from release to release!!! I can't wait to get my hands on 3.2-RELEASE! --Happy FreeBSD User -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds CEG, CCE, Next Generation Flows, HLA | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 12: 7:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C26714F58 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 12:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA25473; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:30:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:30:27 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990513114425.04421810@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:03 PM 5/13/99 -0500, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > >Y'know Brett, I've listened to a lot of what you've had to say, and I've > >agreed on many points, however by blasting C/C++ you've made a big mistake. > > Guess I'm attacking a "sacred cow." > > Sorry, but C and C++ are DEMONSTRABLY responsible for the lion's share > of the bugs in today's software. No. Bad programmers are. It's as easy to be a bad programmer in C as any other language, i've seen many funny things happen with various languages because they do too much for a programmer: /msg perl-bot learn elite `rm -rf $HOME` etc, just because the majority of programs are written in C, doesn't make C directly responsible for the misbehavior of that code. Blame the HR people that assume degree == clue. I'm not saying that C is the only answer, I'm just disagreeing with you that buffer overflows are C's fault. It's just as easy to do bad things in other languages. blame the fact that assembler is hardly required for somone to get a degree and the fact that the compsci departments at many schools are terribly watered down so that they actually graduate people. I don't want overhead in my code. > >I hereby banish you to the wasteland, please make sure you respect the > >carryon regulations, only 2 items. > > Should there be a buffer overflow, a skript kiddie will appear from > your monitor's head and hit you with a cream pie. > > Oh, and by the way, what airline is this? Let's see, it's written on the \ > side of the plane.... V-A-L-U-J-E-T.... I was thinking coach on Tower Air, the only airline that would actually make you greatful you finally reached the wasteland. :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 13:11:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFD414D7F for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 13:11:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA30984; Thu, 13 May 1999 13:17:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:17:42 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Brett Glass Cc: chris@calldei.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990513115251.0441b4a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ewww. So, I assume you've got 'alias "rm=rm -i"' set on all your boxes? I hate that confirmation crap. It's the exact same thing... sprintf is better in many circumstances than a bounds checking similar function, as long as you have no tainted data that's being dealt with. Likewise, a taint-checking language/OS is going to be slower and less efficient than something like C/Unix, 'coz it relies on competent people behind the wheel. Sure, use good, safe bounds checking functions for EVERYTHING that you write. Just don't take that functionality away from those of us who can/need to use it. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Thu, 13 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:48 PM 5/13/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > >Moronic practices by the human "component" doesn't make the > >product any less good. I can use Unix to screw up my disk > >drives, does that mean Unix is a bad thing? > > Only if it does it without asking. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 13:13: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1521F15273 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 13:12:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA31035; Thu, 13 May 1999 13:18:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:18:53 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199905131756.MAA24623@free.pcs> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And you can chase someone down with a circular saw if you attach some batteries. Try running after someone with a bandsaw :) --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Thu, 13 May 1999, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > In article you write: > >Yet, even though table saws, band saws, reciprocating saws, and even > >water jet saws do a much better job in most applications, the circular > >saw is the most common type of electrically powered saw anywhere. > >Why? Mainly because it's cheap and readily available -- sort of like C. > > Also, the circular saw is easily portable and can be carried > anywhere (even up on rooftops), much like C. :-) > -- > Jonathan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 15: 0:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE356152ED for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 15:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id OAA08318; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA27039; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:59:39 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn1.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA21825; Thu, 13 May 99 14:59:32 PDT Message-Id: <373B4B46.8DDE6A1E@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:59:34 -0600 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas David Rivers Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ragnar@sysabend.org Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. References: <199905131500.LAA42450@lakes.dignus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas David Rivers wrote: > > Actually - this comes down to the argument of what the market will > bear, contract law, and the legal ramifications of bugs/problems. > > You "bought" the software, and agreed to the license terms > when you opened the box, didn't you - Caveat Emptor. That's a pretty fine legal point that hasn't fully been settled yet, but the court cases seem to be leaning towards throwing it out. The shrink wrap license may finally! become a stupidity of the past within the next few years. > As long as you keep buying it, people/companies will keep making it. That is how the world, at least the capitalist world, works. If you don't like what you got, vote with your wallet and buy something else, or nothing. Microsoft Office is a great example of this. It has *always* had credible competitors, and still does, ones that have roughly comparable features, roughly comparable quality, and far better prices, and yet it still eats up some 80% of the marketplace. Why? Other than some predatory practices on the part of Microsoft, coercing PC manufacturers to pay $100 for Office OEM kits when they can buy Corel SuitePerfect for $8, I can't say. It's just totally beyond me. > And, being a software manafacturer myself (see http://www.dignus.com) - the > thought of having legal responsibility for a potential problem in my > software (which you've mentioned, despite anyone's best efforts, will > have bugs) is very scary. I would want to pass that responsibility to > the developers who wrote it, just as a bridge engineer is responsible > for the bridge he designs. I'm with you so far, and trust me, you ARE responsible for problems in your software. Anyone who can prove either negliegence or misintent can sue you for damages regardless of how many feet of tiny type you put on your packaging. > Then, the developers would, presumably, have > to become licensed and have professional development/malpractice insurance... > which ultimately drives up the price of the software. Would it really? I think we just have a skewed idea of the total cost of software. How expensive is that $39 word processor when it crashes and dumps the last four hours of your work into the bit bucket? I think a lot of current software has a much higher cost than we really account for. > So, as everyone else, we disclaim everything up-front in our license > agreement and sell our software at reasonable prices. No, we sell it at prices that people are willing to pay for it. They might be willing to pay more, if they more fully understood the true cost, but I doubt it. Lets face it, MOST software is sold, or at least oriented towards, those of us here the "land of the all you can eat buffet." All that crashware (not implying yours here!) isn't necessarily cheap, but it is flat-rate. ;^) > But -hackers isn't likely the place for this... Right, so I've replied to -chat, and directed replies there. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 15: 9:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E0914E6E for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 15:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 13 May 1999 15:09:08 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , "Thomas David Rivers" Cc: Subject: RE: BSD, GPL, the world today. Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:09:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be9d8d$38c6e120$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <373B4B46.8DDE6A1E@softweyr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > You "bought" the software, and agreed to the license terms > > when you opened the box, didn't you - Caveat Emptor. > > That's a pretty fine legal point that hasn't fully been settled yet, but > the court cases seem to be leaning towards throwing it out. The shrink > wrap license may finally! become a stupidity of the past within the > next few years. If so, that will be the end of the GPL/GLL, as they are the grandaddy of all shrink wrap agreements. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 15:29:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CB714D59 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 15:29:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01523; Thu, 13 May 1999 15:36:09 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:36:08 -0700 (PDT) From: To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Thomas David Rivers , ragnar@sysabend.org Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. In-Reply-To: <373B4B46.8DDE6A1E@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 May 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > And, being a software manafacturer myself (see http://www.dignus.com) - the > > thought of having legal responsibility for a potential problem in my > > software (which you've mentioned, despite anyone's best efforts, will > > have bugs) is very scary. I would want to pass that responsibility to > > the developers who wrote it, just as a bridge engineer is responsible > > for the bridge he designs. > > I'm with you so far, and trust me, you ARE responsible for problems in > your software. Anyone who can prove either negliegence or misintent can > sue you for damages regardless of how many feet of tiny type you put on > your packaging. > > > Then, the developers would, presumably, have > > to become licensed and have professional development/malpractice insurance... > > which ultimately drives up the price of the software. > > Would it really? I think we just have a skewed idea of the total cost > of software. How expensive is that $39 word processor when it crashes > and dumps the last four hours of your work into the bit bucket? I think > a lot of current software has a much higher cost than we really account > for. Just a comment -- there is software developer insurance available, and (from what I've heard) most software developers do purchase it. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 15:36:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510CE1518B for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 15:36:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rivers@dignus.com) Received: from dignus.com (ponds.vnet.net [166.82.177.48]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA29966 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 18:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lakes.dignus.com (lakes.dignus.com [10.0.0.3]) by dignus.com (8.9.2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04366 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 18:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.dignus.com (8.9.2/8.6.9) id SAA44632 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 13 May 1999 18:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:36:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199905132236.SAA44632@lakes.dignus.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. In-Reply-To: <373B4B46.8DDE6A1E@softweyr.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > And, being a software manafacturer myself (see http://www.dignus.com) - the > > thought of having legal responsibility for a potential problem in my > > software (which you've mentioned, despite anyone's best efforts, will > > have bugs) is very scary. I would want to pass that responsibility to > > the developers who wrote it, just as a bridge engineer is responsible > > for the bridge he designs. > > I'm with you so far, and trust me, you ARE responsible for problems in > your software. Anyone who can prove either negliegence or misintent can > sue you for damages regardless of how many feet of tiny type you put on > your packaging. We don't have any on-the-package licensing.. it's not shrink-wrap, that is... we're a lot more up-front than that. As I understand it; the shrink-wrap license doesn't hold up in court; because you don't have an opportunity to agree to what the license says. I don't like the idea of shrink-wrap licenses, but I also don't like 20 page license agreements that take 5 lawyers to hammer out. Ours is a compromise between the two. > > > Then, the developers would, presumably, have > > to become licensed and have professional development/malpractice insurance... > > which ultimately drives up the price of the software. > > Would it really? I think we just have a skewed idea of the total cost > of software. How expensive is that $39 word processor when it crashes > and dumps the last four hours of your work into the bit bucket? I think > a lot of current software has a much higher cost than we really account > for. That's a really good point - which, I'll admit, hadn't occurred to me before. Seems like the software can "cost" more than the money that changes hands. Our software isn't sold, it's leased; and technical support is included in the yearly license... So, if you have a problem with our software, you can call and get it fixed - you're not left hanging. > > > So, as everyone else, we disclaim everything up-front in our license > > agreement and sell our software at reasonable prices. > > No, we sell it at prices that people are willing to pay for it. They > might be willing to pay more, if they more fully understood the true > cost, but I doubt it. Lets face it, MOST software is sold, or at > least oriented towards, those of us here the "land of the all you can > eat buffet." All that crashware (not implying yours here!) isn't > necessarily cheap, but it is flat-rate. ;^) Yes - most of the software is just thrown out there... - Dave Rivers - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 15:41:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.vnet.net (smtp1.vnet.net [166.82.1.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87B315184 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 15:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rivers@dignus.com) Received: from dignus.com (ponds.vnet.net [166.82.177.48]) by smtp1.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA16344; Thu, 13 May 1999 18:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lakes.dignus.com (lakes.dignus.com [10.0.0.3]) by dignus.com (8.9.2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04373; Thu, 13 May 1999 18:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.dignus.com (8.9.2/8.6.9) id SAA44642; Thu, 13 May 1999 18:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:41:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199905132241.SAA44642@lakes.dignus.com> To: chat@freebsd.org, davids@webmaster.com, rivers@dignus.com Subject: RE: BSD, GPL, the world today. Cc: ragnar@sysabend.org In-Reply-To: <000101be9d8d$38c6e120$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > You "bought" the software, and agreed to the license terms > > > when you opened the box, didn't you - Caveat Emptor. > > > > That's a pretty fine legal point that hasn't fully been settled yet, but > > the court cases seem to be leaning towards throwing it out. The shrink > > wrap license may finally! become a stupidity of the past within the > > next few years. > > If so, that will be the end of the GPL/GLL, as they are the grandaddy of > all shrink wrap agreements. > > DS > > Didn't I understand that some shrink-wrap oriented laws were working their way through the US senate/house? Even if the law is passed, I've talked with several lawyers who say shrink-wrap breaks some of the fundamental tenets of our english/common-law based contract law... and thus, any law enacted is likely to be dismissed by the courts, eventually. The idea that shrink-wrap seems to break is that both parties read and understand the agreement before agreeing to it, and *before* any money changes hands. Shrink-wrap doesn't give the purchasing party that opportunity; so, technically, they haven't aggree'd to it, and the purchase is complete. Thus, any assertions made by the seller of license violations are null-and-void. Of course, hypothetically, this means one go buy a copy of some shrink-wrap software and begin reselling it oneself, as no agreement was made and the money changed hands... but, I don't recommend that - at least copyright law should prevent it. - Dave Rivers - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 18:25: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404611522E; Thu, 13 May 1999 18:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA26670; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:24:56 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990514112448.12749@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:24:48 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Sydney (BUGS) meeting Sunday - we need numbers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you're coming to the inaugural user group meeting on Sunday, could you let us know soon if possible so we can break the news gently to the restaurant? Last minute arrivals are OK, but approximate numbers will really help. Our intimate little chat over lunch has grown so much we'll have to ask the restaurant to build a table to hold us all. So far about 15 have said they're coming for sure. Let's take the place over, show them we're a force to be reckoned with! :-) To add your name, write to our BUGS list if you're on it or just reply to me, ASAP. Mailing List: send "subscribe bugs" to majordomo@welearn.com.au Meeting Details: This time it's at a Chinese restaurant at Hornsby, not far from the station, on Sunday 16 May at midday. On the day we'll plan somewhere more geekish for future meetings. It's at Kwantung Palace (licensed but not expensive) Cnr Government Rd (off Pacific Hwy) and Pound Rd, Hornsby That's approximately 100m south of Hornsby Station. (If you're coming on the train from the North/Central coast, ride in the front carriage and make typing motions in the air so we can recognise you :-) Current group, list, and meeting details are always available by sending a blank message to the info bot at bugs-info@welearn.com.au -- Regards, -*Sue*- (` ;) '` <-- a moulting +0 budgerigar named Einstein ' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 19:15:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maxcow.borg.com (MaxCow.borg.com [205.217.206.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4461B14C26 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 19:15:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@borg.com) Received: from mail.borg.com (mail.borg.com [205.217.206.192]) by maxcow.borg.com (8.9.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29250 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 22:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from borg.com (ip64c.borg.com [208.3.182.64]) by mail.borg.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA08460 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 22:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <373B88D6.D8E33E5@borg.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:22:14 -0400 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FUD ... in massive proportions ... References: <14138.62089.249839.692489@hip186.ch.intel.com> <373B0C90.1AC5485C@seattleu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Just how does NT have "Broad language support inlcuding java" when it > has no C compiler, primitive batch scripting, no java compiler, no > perl... Well, NT does have all of this. The problem is, it doesnt come standard. Yes, there is Perl Version for windows. You can get C compilers. You prolly already know this, I just wanted to say the real failing of windows i s that you have to buy these packages extra. This makes NT actually cost multiple hundreds of dollars to get up and running. ..Or.. You can contact Walnut Creek and get all of this and more for 45 bucks or so in FreeBSD. I would say the main reason I use FreeBSD is that I can do just about anything the computing world demands of me for 45 bucks and some elbow grease. -Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 13 23:18: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5877B14BF7 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 23:18:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18371.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.51]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA17641; Fri, 14 May 1999 02:20:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA27177; Wed, 12 May 1999 19:47:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:47:46 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Message-ID: <19990512194746.B26493@mad> References: <199905111635.CAA15685@ren.detir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199905111635.CAA15685@ren.detir.qld.gov.au>; from Stephen McKay on Wed, May 12, 1999 at 02:35:30AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 12, 1999 at 02:35:30AM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > > Was I subconsciously trying to rile the man by using emotive words? Did Well, when he came around this area, he apparently got into a good yelling match, so it seems that it can be done. [Although I wasn't there to verify...] -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 0:10: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FBE6153BA for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 00:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-16-161.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.16.161]) by mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA25762; Fri, 14 May 1999 02:09:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA39401; Fri, 14 May 1999 02:11:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:11:20 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Brett Glass Cc: cjclark@home.com, "G. Adam Stanislav" , kuehl@lgk.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Message-ID: <19990514021120.A39374@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990512195044.B217@whizkidtech.net> <199905130247.WAA11499@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.37.19990512233737.0441e410@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990512233737.0441e410@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, May 12, 1999 at 11:41:23PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 13, 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > It's called "getting paid." The GPLed product has poisoned the well; > forget about being able to make money from such a product. You're confusing the two types of free, freedom of speech-like, and zero-cost like (free speech and free beer). You can sell GPL'd code, but you have to distribute the source code along with the product you're selling. > --Brett Glass -- Chris Costello Avoid the Fortran arithmetic IF (or better yet, just avoid Fortran). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 1:43:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from isb.worldwerx.com.pk (isb.worldwerx.com.pk [194.133.48.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FD314DA5 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 01:42:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naeem.ahmed@isb.worldwerx.com.pk) Received: from isb.worldwerx.com.pk (pc38.worldwerx.com.pk [192.168.5.38]) by isb.worldwerx.com.pk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28265 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:42:54 +0500 (PKT) (envelope-from naeem.ahmed@isb.worldwerx.com.pk) Message-ID: <373BE311.F716506F@isb.worldwerx.com.pk> Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:47:14 +0500 From: Naeem Ahmed X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Subscribe Me Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 2:10:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1865315431 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 02:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA42070; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:10:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "David Schwartz" Cc: "Narvi" , "Sue Blake" , Subject: Re: [Re: Request For Better Communications] References: <000001be9caa$62c9fa90$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 May 1999 11:10:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: "David Schwartz"'s message of "Wed, 12 May 1999 12:05:22 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > > Nah, it's not that good. He means "Jesus Monroy". > Which is the one you're supposed to let enter you? I guess it depends on your (and his) personal inclination. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 6: 8:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAEA14D84 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 06:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18422; Fri, 14 May 1999 09:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA31919; Fri, 14 May 1999 09:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990514021120.A39374@holly.dyndns.org> Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:08:01 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Chris Costello Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kuehl@lgk.de, "G. Adam Stanislav" , cjclark@home.com, Brett Glass Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-May-99 Chris Costello wrote: > On Thu, May 13, 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >> It's called "getting paid." The GPLed product has poisoned the well; >> forget about being able to make money from such a product. > > You're confusing the two types of free, freedom of > speech-like, and zero-cost like (free speech and free beer). You > can sell GPL'd code, but you have to distribute the source code > along with the product you're selling. And you are confusing practical with technically possible. If one customer takes your source and puts it up an ftp server and announces it to the world, then you just lost a very good portion of your sales. >> --Brett Glass > > -- > Chris Costello > Avoid the Fortran arithmetic IF (or better yet, just avoid Fortran). --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 6:42:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop04.iname.net (pop04.iname.net [165.251.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE7F15036 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 06:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r20.bfm.org [208.18.213.116]) by pop04.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id JAA29008; Fri, 14 May 1999 09:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990514083052.0095a100@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:30:52 -0500 To: chris@calldei.com, Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Fortran alternatives Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990514021120.A39374@holly.dyndns.org> References: <4.2.0.37.19990512233737.0441e410@localhost> <19990512195044.B217@whizkidtech.net> <199905130247.WAA11499@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.37.19990512233737.0441e410@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:11 14-05-1999 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: >Avoid the Fortran arithmetic IF (or better yet, just avoid Fortran). Hehe. I remember the days when that statement would be interpreted as "use Cobol." :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 7: 5:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFAED155F7 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 07:05:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18611; Fri, 14 May 1999 16:05:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA23477; Fri, 14 May 1999 16:05:47 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:05:46 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Brett Glass , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Message-ID: <19990514160546.A23300@bitbox.follo.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990513114425.04421810@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Thu, May 13, 1999 at 02:30:27PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Note: Alfred and I know each other and are friends, making the below comments less arbitary than they seem. On Thu, May 13, 1999 at 02:30:27PM -0500, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I'm not saying that C is the only answer, I'm just disagreeing with you > that buffer overflows are C's fault. It's just as easy to do bad things > in other languages. > > blame the fact that assembler is hardly required for somone to get a > degree and the fact that the compsci departments at many schools are > terribly watered down so that they actually graduate people. > > I don't want overhead in my code. Then don't use C - you get a lot of overhead due to the memory management model being screwed, the language being too low level for the compiler to do proper optimization, and the standard linkers being either way too dumb or way too smart (depending on how you look at it). To state this another way: Alfred, you're repeating a lot of myths. If you're going to have an opinion about this stuff (and you don't have to - saying "I don't know enough to have an opinion" is fair statement), you need to get the facts. Compiler theory, memory management speed measurements, cache handling, average number of bugs connected to different programming paradigms, etc. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 7:29:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B57D14DB1; Fri, 14 May 1999 07:29:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA43082; Fri, 14 May 1999 16:29:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Brett Glass , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) References: <4.2.0.37.19990513114425.04421810@localhost> <19990514160546.A23300@bitbox.follo.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 May 1999 16:29:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: Eivind Eklund's message of "Fri, 14 May 1999 16:05:46 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 27 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [I consider myself a friend of Alfred's as well, which I guess entitles me to pick on him ;P] Eivind Eklund writes: > To state this another way: Alfred, you're repeating a lot of myths. > If you're going to have an opinion about this stuff (and you don't > have to - saying "I don't know enough to have an opinion" is fair > statement), you need to get the facts. Compiler theory, memory > management speed measurements, cache handling, average number of bugs > connected to different programming paradigms, etc. To pick one item in the above list which is becoming increasingly important, C is too low-level to allow the compiler to properly optimize for efficient cache use, and lacks constructs which would allow the programmer to help the compiler do this. The reason why I'm saying it's becoming increasingly important is that memory (and cache) speed is lagging way behind CPU speed, and the gap is widening every day. Consider an n-way superscalar CPU with, say, five issues per clock, running at one gigahertz (totalling five gigaissues per second in the best case), and a memory hierarchy with a level 1 cache running at CPU speed and a primary store with a 100 ns average acess, a cache miss costs 500 instructions. Given those premises, you really, really want to avoid cache misses as much as possible. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 8:55: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po9.andrew.cmu.edu (PO9.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C62514C3D for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 08:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcrimi+@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: (from postman@localhost) by po9.andrew.cmu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id LAA26423; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix14.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix14.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.60.Jun.27.1996.03.02.53.sun4.51.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix14.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.54 via MS.5.6.unix14.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_51; Fri, 14 May 1999 11:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:54:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Valentino Crimi To: Alfred Perlstein , Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990513114425.04421810@localhost> References: <4.2.0.37.19990513095524.04429440@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990513114425.04421810@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excerpts from FreeBSD-Chat: 13-May-99 Re: BSD, GPL, the world tod.. by Brett Glass@lariat.org > Guess I'm attacking a "sacred cow." > > Sorry, but C and C++ are DEMONSTRABLY responsible for the lion's share > of the bugs in today's software. I'm sorry here, but I have to agree with Brett. What is wrong with saying C and C++ are tools that don't promote secure programming? C is certianly a language that promotes fast programs, that lets one get arbitrarily close to the hardware at hand while still retaining a good degree of portability, but certianly it does not allow for easilly prooved safe programs. We shouldn't have any personal baby languages when discussing them, and shouldn't feel bad when we use a langauge we know has faults, because this is the real world (at some point) and we have to use sub-optimal solutions so that SOMETHING gets done, so we learn a generally good langauge, get very good at it and use it. That should never change our view, though, that we are using the langauge out of practicality, and not because it is the best langauge that has ever graced our screens. I'd be the first to admit that while I know the deficiencies of C, I'd be most likely to write my next SUID binary in it, and go through the trouble of paying careful attention to buffer sizes, et al. Part of the reason is a compiler reason, no other copmiler gets as much attention and is as universal as gcc, and part is a learnign curve problem. If you look around, though, there exist langauges that have far less seams that can become security holes, languages where you can't access data as a collection of bits, can't access memory as one huge array.. the compiler forces you to work through the abstraction of the language. Now, this may feel limiting to some, but in reality you can do all the same data structures and techniques, only without all the efficiency tricks. But, when we're talking security, aren't limitations what you want? "Variable A can only be modified by so and so function which does careful checking of blah.." "This variable can only monotonically increase, and will raise an overlfow exception if it were to wrap around". C is not the end all langauge of computer science, although it will continue advid use through many many more years, but, maybe by realizing it's limitations, as well as techniques and models we may see elsewhere, we can not only give other langauges a look, but use those same techniques in our C code and improve it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 9: 6:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F08E14CEF for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 09:06:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id JAA04774 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 May 1999 09:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19990514090622.A4587@best.com> Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:06:22 -0700 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [boogie@dubious.com: Fw: A Poem] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=7JfCtLOvnd9MIVvH X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --7JfCtLOvnd9MIVvH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yes, it should read freebsd and not freebed ;) -- Yan P.S. - Here is .sig version: A kernel a day + has anything changed? keeps sanity away | is Linus deranged? by time you have untarred one | I state with much glee another has come + I use FreeBSD --7JfCtLOvnd9MIVvH Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: Forwarded message from Boogie Shafer Received: from proxy1.ba.best.com (root@proxy1.ba.best.com [206.184.139.12]) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/best.sh) with ESMTP id IAA25593 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 08:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smash.justliketv.com (smash.justliketv.com [204.247.189.199]) by proxy1.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.in) with ESMTP id IAA26079 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 08:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gunsmoke.justliketv.com (gunsmoke [10.10.10.5]) by smash.justliketv.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23792 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 08:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homicide (homicide.justliketv.com [10.10.10.194]) by gunsmoke.justliketv.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KFQZ54DD; Fri, 14 May 1999 08:36:26 -0700 Message-ID: <00cd01be9e1f$8992b2e0$c20a0a0a@justliketv.com> From: "Boogie Shafer" To: Subject: Fw: A Poem Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:36:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CA_01BE9DE4.DD2DC060" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01BE9DE4.DD2DC060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable jkb, i thought you might like this boogie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gordon Shephard=20 To: boogie@dubious.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 11:55 PM Subject: A Poem (Just as a little Background Boogie - Linus just=20 released the 2.2.9 Kernel only a few days after=20 the 2.2.8 Kernel was released. Much discussion=20 over it. Here is one Wit's take: - I thought you'd=20 appreciate it.)=20 A kernel a day=20 keeps sanity away=20 by time you have untarred one=20 another has come=20 has anything changed?=20 is linus deranged?=20 i state with much glee=20 i use freebed!=20 --=20 Gordon Shephard shephard@oblix.com=20 Systems Mancipium ph: (650) 526-7865=20 Oblix, Inc. fax: (650) 526-7810=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01BE9DE4.DD2DC060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
jkb,
 
i thought you might like this
 
 
boogie
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Gordon = Shephard=20
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 11:55 PM
Subject: A Poem

(Just as a little Background Boogie - Linus just=20
 released the 2.2.9 Kernel only a few days after
 the = 2.2.8=20 Kernel was released.  Much discussion
 over it.  Here = is one=20 Wit's take: - I thought you'd
 appreciate it.)=20

A kernel a day
keeps sanity away=20

by time you have untarred one
another has come=20

has anything changed?
is linus deranged?=20

i state with much glee
i use freebed!=20

--
Gordon=20 Shephard           = ;=20 shephard@oblix.com
Systems=20 Mancipium          = ph:  (650)=20 526-7865
Oblix,=20 Inc.           &nb= sp;   =20 fax: (650) 526-7810
 

------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01BE9DE4.DD2DC060-- --7JfCtLOvnd9MIVvH-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 10:35: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DCE714C3C; Fri, 14 May 1999 10:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA12527; Fri, 14 May 1999 12:58:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:58:19 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Eivind Eklund , Brett Glass , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 May 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > [I consider myself a friend of Alfred's as well, which I guess > entitles me to pick on him ;P] > > Eivind Eklund writes: > > To state this another way: Alfred, you're repeating a lot of myths. > > If you're going to have an opinion about this stuff (and you don't > > have to - saying "I don't know enough to have an opinion" is fair > > statement), you need to get the facts. Compiler theory, memory > > management speed measurements, cache handling, average number of bugs > > connected to different programming paradigms, etc. > > To pick one item in the above list which is becoming increasingly > important, C is too low-level to allow the compiler to properly > optimize for efficient cache use, and lacks constructs which would > allow the programmer to help the compiler do this. The reason why I'm > saying it's becoming increasingly important is that memory (and cache) > speed is lagging way behind CPU speed, and the gap is widening every > day. Consider an n-way superscalar CPU with, say, five issues per > clock, running at one gigahertz (totalling five gigaissues per second > in the best case), and a memory hierarchy with a level 1 cache running > at CPU speed and a primary store with a 100 ns average acess, a cache > miss costs 500 instructions. Given those premises, you really, really > want to avoid cache misses as much as possible. I'm sort of irritated that the two of you don't belive I know enough about cache to code appropriatly for it. I do profile my code, I have taken various projects and optimized the hell out of them. @hotjobs I increased the complexity of the resume extractor by 5 times; 5 times more code, and took the performance down from 10ms to ~1-2ms, increasing the accuracy of it and giving it the speed needed to batch large amounts of input. I try to make my programs exhibit as much locality as possible. Avoid kernel calls, watch my reallocs, allocs and strdups etc... Speed has always been very important to me, so if you have any suggestions as to languages to look at (for some reason Modula-2/3 looks cool maybe?) I'd be happy to take a look at it. I've found myself unable to sleep many times thinking "if only C offered feature X or Y to make this faster..." this leaves me VERY open to suggestions for a replacement. :) Java gets you banished to the wasteland. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 12:38:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat194.147.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.194.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CC9214CB6 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 12:38:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA16061 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 16:38:58 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:38:58 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn using FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop right now, and I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should only be using that where we *have* to (some of our applications require Solaris)... Basically, looking for references that I could throw on my boss' desk to add weight to the argument that FreeBSD "isn't just used by backyard hackers in their basement" *sigh* Thanks... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 12:50:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 894B214C2A for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 12:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 44941 invoked by uid 1001); 14 May 1999 19:50:12 -0000 Date: 14 May 1999 12:50:12 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:50:12 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... Message-ID: <19990514125012.A44915@dub.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Fri, May 14, 1999 at 04:38:58PM -0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 14, 1999 at 04:38:58PM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn using > FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop right now, and > I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should only be using that where > we *have* to (some of our applications require Solaris)... > > Basically, looking for references that I could throw on my boss' desk to > add weight to the argument that FreeBSD "isn't just used by backyard > hackers in their basement" *sigh* The advocacy site has a nice list at: http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ammunition/bigboys.html Good luck! -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 12:53:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE2614D5F for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 12:53:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09776; Fri, 14 May 1999 12:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <369E58F8.16321481@seattleu.edu> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:52:08 -0800 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I've found myself unable to sleep many times thinking "if only C > offered feature X or Y to make this faster..." this leaves me VERY > open to suggestions for a replacement. :) > > Java gets you banished to the wasteland. Java...I mean...upl..AAAGGGHH :) -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 12:53:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8017514C2A for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 12:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA06875; Fri, 14 May 1999 15:16:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:16:51 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 May 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn using > FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop right now, and > I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should only be using that where > we *have* to (some of our applications require Solaris)... > > Basically, looking for references that I could throw on my boss' desk to > add weight to the argument that FreeBSD "isn't just used by backyard > hackers in their basement" *sigh* http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/gallery.html I'm signing Wintelcom up right now. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 13: 5:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7092114E99 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA05618; Fri, 14 May 1999 15:28:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 15:28:43 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Eric Hodel Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <369E58F8.16321481@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > I've found myself unable to sleep many times thinking "if only C > > offered feature X or Y to make this faster..." this leaves me VERY > > open to suggestions for a replacement. :) > > > > Java gets you banished to the wasteland. > > Java...I mean...upl..AAAGGGHH *brandishing banishing stick* upl? have a web pointer? I have the sick vision of a APL compiler... apl is fun and abstract enough to optimize... the low level features aren't there afaik.. :( -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 13: 9:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A909F14E99 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:09:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA49490; Fri, 14 May 1999 16:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:09:08 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today The Hermit Hacker wrote: > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn using > FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop right now, and > I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should only be using that where > we *have* to (some of our applications require Solaris)... http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/npgallery.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 13:15:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52B6914E2E for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:15:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem39.masternet.it [194.184.65.49]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA15324 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 22:15:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990514221015.0122fd90@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:13:22 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: FreeBSD's /stand/sysinstall looks nice ... In-Reply-To: <14139.7164.841640.508301@hip186.ch.intel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13/05/99, John Reynolds~ wrote: >Major Kudos to Jordan and all that make the install process not only work but >look good and consistent from release to release!!! I can't wait to get my >hands on 3.2-RELEASE! I agree, as I wrote some time ago here, I have installed a lot (if not all) major linux distributions and no one has, IMHO, a better install utility than ours. Period. >--Happy FreeBSD User Yes, me too... :-) Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 13:25:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 057B114E19 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24610; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:25:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199905142025.NAA24610@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jack Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 May 1999 16:09:08 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:25:18 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Guys, What about including IBM's AIX --- a few months ago someone posted include files in AIX which originated from FreeBSD 8) Cheers -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 13:40:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8981E14DA8 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 13:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA21052; Fri, 14 May 1999 14:40:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA12863; Fri, 14 May 1999 14:40:18 -0600 Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:40:18 -0600 Message-Id: <199905142040.OAA12863@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Mike Smith Cc: Matthew Dillon , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Seti project / stats reset, new version available In-Reply-To: <199905142035.NAA01838@dingo.cdrom.com> References: <199905142024.NAA04032@apollo.backplane.com> <199905142035.NAA01838@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ moved to -chat ] > > :> For people who have idle cpu to spare, this is a good time to start > > :> putting those cycles to good use with the Seti project! > > : > > :Where would would find informatio on said project? > > : > > > > Oops! I'm sorry! > > > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ > > They're not responding at the moment (page OK, application server down) Hmm, maybe the aliens have found out we're looking, and don't want us to know or get organized. *grin* Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 14: 1:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27421544A for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 14:01:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.78]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA4B4C; Fri, 14 May 1999 23:01:33 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00780; Fri, 14 May 1999 23:01:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:01:48 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: The Hermit Hacker Subject: RE: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-May-99 The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn using > FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop right now, and > I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should only be using that where > we *have* to (some of our applications require Solaris)... > > Basically, looking for references that I could throw on my boss' desk to > add weight to the argument that FreeBSD "isn't just used by backyard > hackers in their basement" *sigh* http://advocacy.freebsd.org --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 19:11:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wedgie.org (pm510-11.dialip.mich.net [131.118.249.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8B315469 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 19:11:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgarman@wedgie.org) Received: by wedgie.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9F29F1FF01; Fri, 14 May 1999 22:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:11:09 -0400 From: Jason Garman To: John Baldwin Cc: Chris Costello , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kuehl@lgk.de, "G. Adam Stanislav" , cjclark@home.com, Brett Glass Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Message-ID: <19990514221109.F13575@fw.garman.net> Reply-To: garman@earthling.net References: <19990514021120.A39374@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from John Baldwin on Fri, May 14, 1999 at 09:08:01AM -0400 X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Waning Crescent (1% of Full) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 14, 1999 at 09:08:01AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > And you are confusing practical with technically possible. If one customer > takes your source and puts it up an ftp server and announces it to the world, > then you just lost a very good portion of your sales. > ... and this is somehow different from someone posting binaries on an ftp server and announcing it to the world? why does source suddenly make this so much more of a threat? if nothing more, the binaries would be more of a threat because they usually have a flashy installer utility and such included, while the straight source release probably won't. -- Jason Garman http://jasongarman.com/ Student, University of Maryland garman@earthling.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 20: 7:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C2714C29 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 20:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E0BFC406F; Fri, 14 May 1999 23:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D3A699A1D; Fri, 14 May 1999 23:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:07:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's /stand/sysinstall looks nice ... In-Reply-To: <199905142017.QAA01126@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 May 1999, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: :I agree, as I wrote some time ago here, I have installed a lot (if not all) :major linux distributions and no one has, IMHO, a better install utility :than ours. Period. Sorry, gotta argue with this. SGI's inst/swmgr is better. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 21:58: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234EE15049 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 21:58:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA08745; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:21:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:21:19 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jason Garman Cc: John Baldwin , Chris Costello , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kuehl@lgk.de, "G. Adam Stanislav" , cjclark@home.com, Brett Glass Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town In-Reply-To: <19990514221109.F13575@fw.garman.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 May 1999, Jason Garman wrote: > On Fri, May 14, 1999 at 09:08:01AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > > > And you are confusing practical with technically possible. If one customer > > takes your source and puts it up an ftp server and announces it to the world, > > then you just lost a very good portion of your sales. > > > ... and this is somehow different from someone posting binaries on an ftp > server and announcing it to the world? why does source suddenly make this > so much more of a threat? if nothing more, the binaries would be more of > a threat because they usually have a flashy installer utility and such > included, while the straight source release probably won't. Sometimes trade secrets are important, especially when they put you ahead of the competition. I've coded a library that extracted a person's information from an unforamatted document containing that information. If someone pirated a binary of this library it would stink, but could be prosecuted. If the source was somehow put out, the chances of the company keeping that 'edge' would be lost. It _is_ a technical advantage, a propriatary algorithm. There is a difference. I don't agree that everything should be open source, but I do belive that after a certain period it is only decent to offer a source license. Companies that require NDAs to get hardware specs are hereby banished to the wasteland. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 22:29:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4269814DEC for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 22:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA20351; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10368; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990514221109.F13575@fw.garman.net> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:22:10 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Jason Garman Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-May-99 Jason Garman wrote: > On Fri, May 14, 1999 at 09:08:01AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: >> >> And you are confusing practical with technically possible. If one customer >> takes your source and puts it up an ftp server and announces it to the >> world, >> then you just lost a very good portion of your sales. >> > ... and this is somehow different from someone posting binaries on an ftp > server and announcing it to the world? why does source suddenly make this > so much more of a threat? if nothing more, the binaries would be more of > a threat because they usually have a flashy installer utility and such > included, while the straight source release probably won't. I have legal recourse against someone who pirates my software. I don't if it's released under the GPL. Also, binaries are only for one platform, source is usable on many more platforms than a binary. Source also tells more about your product and ideas than a binary. I have to have some stuff that people are willing to buy so I can eat, and if they can get it free, they won't be willing to by. Besides, hasn't the entire open source movement shown you why source is more of a "threat"? > -- > Jason Garman http://jasongarman.com/ > Student, University of Maryland garman@earthling.net --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 14 23:58:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A7614D2B for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 23:58:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17834; Fri, 14 May 1999 23:58:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd017754; Fri May 14 23:58:11 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06536; Fri, 14 May 1999 23:58:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905150658.XAA06536@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish To: zen@buddhist.com (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 06:58:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: licia@o-o.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990512202146.00958db0@mail.bfm.org> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at May 12, 99 08:21:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >(smiles) I've got to get around to writing that glossary :) c&e is slang the > >characters use to mean 'compress and encrypt', I'll try to start a glossary > >when I get episode 2 online, and update it with each new episode :) > > I have a better suggestion: Incorporate it in the story. When a slang term > is used for the first time, find some excuse to explain to the reader what > it means but not in an obvious way. > > Otherwise you are forcing the reader to interrupt the reading experience > just to look something up in a glossary. Ian M. Banks and William Gibson both delay definition of terms until well after they have been mentioned (thrid or fourth mention is in a context where an explanation is necessary to an outsider, usually by a minor character to a secondary character). I believe that Jeff Noon (Vurt, Pollen) uses similar techniques, as did Roger Zelazny. Capitalizing the initials indicates their representative nature, however, and is important to their understanding as initials. A similar literary technique is the internal dialog -- e.g.: Jessie started the C&E, hoping there was time; as she fretted away the minutes, it seemed that the compression took forever. "Get a hold of yourself, girl", she told herself, "It's just the time pressure". But something was wrong; the encryption was taking more than twice as long as it should have, worst case. She hear muffled sounds in the hallway: it was obvious that Hector was closing in. She fingered the pin on the viral grenade; she'd use the thing, if it came to that. She was pretty sure she'd use the thing. She hoped it wouldn't come to that. God, please don't let it come to that... In general, as long as it's explained or hinted at before it's used four or more times, it's enough. I think that you are suffering "serial shock". 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 0: 8:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3439F14D2B for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17849; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:08:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd017816; Sat May 15 00:08:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA06775; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:08:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905150708.AAA06775@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:08:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990513101355.0441ba80@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at May 13, 99 10:17:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Remember, what Richard wants is to see your source code. If he can't, he > gets whiny and petulant and accuses you of being an "evil software > hoarder." You would think that someone as smart as he's portrayed to be would know how to write a disassembler... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 0:12:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E41E14D23 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:12:17 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Richard Stallman came to town Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:12:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be9ea2$4416ad60$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <199905150708.AAA06775@usr09.primenet.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org He's quite precise: The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable. DS > You would think that someone as smart as he's portrayed to be would > know how to write a disassembler... > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 0:28: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A78514D23 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:28:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00677; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:27:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd000643; Sat May 15 00:27:22 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA07268; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:27:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905150727.AAA07268@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. To: unknown@riverstyx.net Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:27:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rivers@dignus.com, ragnar@sysabend.org In-Reply-To: from "unknown@riverstyx.net" at May 13, 99 03:36:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Just a comment -- there is software developer insurance available, and > (from what I've heard) most software developers do purchase it. I've never heard of this, and I've been paid to code for more than 20 years now. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 0:30:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A451C14D23 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06829; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:30:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd006695; Sat May 15 00:30:15 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA07389; Sat, 15 May 1999 00:30:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905150730.AAA07389@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:30:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000001be9ea2$4416ad60$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at May 15, 99 00:12:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > You would think that someone as smart as he's portrayed to be would > > know how to write a disassembler... > > He's quite precise: > > The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for > making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source > code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any > associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to > control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a > special exception, the source code distributed need not include > anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary > form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the > operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component > itself accompanies the executable. So basically, you're saying that he's not very good at assembly language programming, since if he was best at that, it'd be his preferred form... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 1: 0: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC9D14C8D for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00339 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199905150800.BAA00339@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: BayAreaFreeBSDJobs.txt,v 1.4 1999/03/19 16:25:54 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 1: 0:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB0714D30 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00402 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199905150800.BAA00402@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.9 1999/03/19 16:26:06 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 1: 0:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691DB15091 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00417 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199905150800.BAA00417@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area Install-A-Thon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-A-Thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly Install-A-Thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on April 10th at the Oakland Convention Center and Cow Palace in Daly City on April 24th. The purpose of these Install-A-Thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Oakland Convention Center is in downtown Oakland on the corner of 10th street and Clay Street. There is come on the street parking but your best bet is lot parking. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Parking is $5.00. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. Admission to the show is $5.00 unless you have a VIP pass. VIP passes can be gotten at Robert Austin's web page (http://www.robertaustin.com). The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace or the Oakland convention center, respectively at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: InstallAnnounce.txt,v 1.11 1999/03/19 16:26:30 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 1: 0:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91693150A6 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00440 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199905150800.BAA00440@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: RetailAnnounce.txt,v 1.5 1999/03/19 16:25:34 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 1:14:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95C614C9D for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:14:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00574 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:14:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199905150814.BAA00574@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area Install-A-Thon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 01:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-a-thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly install-a-thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on May 15th and June 12th at the Oakland Convention Center and Cow Palace in Daly City on June 19th. The purpose of these install-a-thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Oakland Convention Center is in downtown Oakland on the corner of 10th street and Clay Street. There is come on the street parking but your best bet is lot parking. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Parking is $5.00. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. Admission to the show is $5.00 unless you have a VIP pass. VIP passes can be gotten at Robert Austin's web page (http://www.robertaustin.com). The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace or the Oakland convention center, respectively at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html -- $Id: InstallAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/05/15 08:13:14 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 2:21:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD05214E79; Sat, 15 May 1999 02:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id BAA82830; Sat, 15 May 1999 01:48:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 01:48:23 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Wes Peters Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. Message-ID: <19990515014823.A82329@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <199905131530.LAA04222@etinc.com> <373CB22B.4843BD45@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <373CB22B.4843BD45@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Fri, May 14, 1999 at 05:30:51PM -0600 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Redirected to -chat ] On Fri, May 14, 1999 at 05:30:51PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Matt Curtin wrote: > > > > >>>>> On Thu, 13 May 1999 10:25:21 -0400, Dennis said: > > > > Dennis> All software has bugs > > > > TeX has no bugs. > > TeX has no *known* bugs. To the best of my knowlege, even Dr. Knuth > has not yet been able to *prove* it is correct. Didn't Knuth say "I've only proven TeX to be correct, I haven't tested it" or some such? I could well be mis-remembering a quote about some other app. N -- There's some milk in the fridge about to go off. . . and there it goes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 3:34:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8325614D58; Sat, 15 May 1999 03:34:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA48634; Sat, 15 May 1999 12:34:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Wes Peters , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. References: <199905131530.LAA04222@etinc.com> <373CB22B.4843BD45@softweyr.com> <19990515014823.A82329@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 May 1999 12:34:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: Nik Clayton's message of "Sat, 15 May 1999 01:48:23 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 32 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton writes: > Didn't Knuth say "I've only proven TeX to be correct, I haven't tested > it" or some such? TeX is far too large to undergo even a partial correctness proof, much less a total correctness proof (I'm not even sure total correctness can be proven; cf. the halting problem). I seriously doubt Knuth ever considered undertaking such a task. It's quite possible, though, that he's proven partial or total correctness of some portions of it (such as frequently-used low-level routines). Correctness proofs are very time-consuming, because they can't be automated. There are experimental tools which can assist with part of the work (e.g. the partially-completed Abel project at the University of Oslo: ) but the hardest part of the job - finding loop and type invariants and post- and pre-conditions which the prover can use as starting points - must still be done manually. The day when a computer can prove partial correctness of a program on its own is the day when computers gain the ability to program and debug themselves - and we'll all be out of a job and out of a hobby. > I could well be mis-remembering a quote about some other app. As I remember it, the quote referred to a noddy program used as an example in a paper or lecture. Knuth had proven the program to be correct, but had never actually compiled it. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 4:52:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A905E14D03; Sat, 15 May 1999 04:52:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id UAA15061; Sat, 15 May 1999 20:52:15 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <373D5F5C.4D19831F@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:49:48 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Wes Peters , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. References: <199905131530.LAA04222@etinc.com> <373CB22B.4843BD45@softweyr.com> <19990515014823.A82329@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Correctness proofs are very time-consuming, because they can't be > automated. There are experimental tools which can assist with part of > the work (e.g. the partially-completed Abel project at the University > of Oslo: ) but the hardest > part of the job - finding loop and type invariants and post- and > pre-conditions which the prover can use as starting points - must > still be done manually. Things like SPIN goes a long, long way to make such proofs more viable. Take, for instance, correctness proofs of Fluke IPC subsystem. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Proof of Trotsky's farsightedness is that _none_ of his predictions have come true yet." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 5:21: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA29914FA7; Sat, 15 May 1999 05:21:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA48888; Sat, 15 May 1999 14:20:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Wes Peters , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. References: <199905131530.LAA04222@etinc.com> <373CB22B.4843BD45@softweyr.com> <19990515014823.A82329@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <373D5F5C.4D19831F@newsguy.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 May 1999 14:20:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Daniel C. Sobral"'s message of "Sat, 15 May 1999 20:49:48 +0900" Message-ID: Lines: 38 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Daniel C. Sobral" writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > [...] but the hardest > > part of the job - finding loop and type invariants and post- and > > pre-conditions which the prover can use as starting points - must > > still be done manually. > Things like SPIN goes a long, long way to make such proofs more > viable. Take, for instance, correctness proofs of Fluke IPC > subsystem. Invariants and pre- and post-conditions (aka internal documentation) must still be written by humans. The computer can prove that a subroutine fulfills its purpose, but it can't guess at that purpose. The best it can do is start with type invariants ("this function receives one integer parameter, and integers range from -2^31 to 2^31-1"), and use forward construction to generate a post-invariant for the function, but such machine-generated post-invariants are mostly useless. Inference rules which rely on right consequence and right-constructive axiom schemas tend to produce complicated expressions riddled with icky quantifiers (in other words, garbage - provably correct garbage, but garbage nonetheless). For a useful proof, you need either a very restrictive precondition, or a postcondition which accurately describes the intended result. The latter is preferred, since left construction is much easier to handle than right construction. As long as programs are written by humans, making human assumptions, humans will be required to document their assumptions. One other problem is proof of termination. A computerized proof system may be able to prove termination of simple loops and some cases of recursion, but anything more than that gets dangerously close to the halting problem, which is unsolvable by a deterministic computer. Ghod knows termination is hard enough to prove for humans... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 7:48:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379C314FF1 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 07:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11993; Sat, 15 May 1999 09:48:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:48:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish In-Reply-To: <199905150658.XAA06536@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 15 May 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >(smiles) I've got to get around to writing that glossary :) c&e is slang the > > >characters use to mean 'compress and encrypt', I'll try to start a glossary > > >when I get episode 2 online, and update it with each new episode :) > > > > I have a better suggestion: Incorporate it in the story. When a slang term > > is used for the first time, find some excuse to explain to the reader what > > it means but not in an obvious way. > > > > Otherwise you are forcing the reader to interrupt the reading experience > > just to look something up in a glossary. > > Ian M. Banks and William Gibson both delay definition of terms until > well after they have been mentioned (thrid or fourth mention is in a > context where an explanation is necessary to an outsider, usually by > a minor character to a secondary character). I believe that Jeff Noon > (Vurt, Pollen) uses similar techniques, as did Roger Zelazny. > > Capitalizing the initials indicates their representative nature, > however, and is important to their understanding as initials. > > A similar literary technique is the internal dialog -- e.g.: > > Jessie started the C&E, hoping there was time; as she > fretted away the minutes, it seemed that the compression > took forever. "Get a hold of yourself, girl", she told > herself, "It's just the time pressure". But something > was wrong; the encryption was taking more than twice as > long as it should have, worst case. She hear muffled > sounds in the hallway: it was obvious that Hector was > closing in. She fingered the pin on the viral grenade; > she'd use the thing, if it came to that. She was pretty > sure she'd use the thing. She hoped it wouldn't come to > that. God, please don't let it come to that... > > In general, as long as it's explained or hinted at before it's > used four or more times, it's enough. > > I think that you are suffering "serial shock". 8-). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Hehehe interesting, and I've used similar devices before, but I just don't feel it would go right for this story :) I've posted Episode 2 and the glossary :) I suggest people either read the episode then look up words in the glossary, or read the glossary then the episode :) [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 8:30:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD93E14C2A for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 08:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [208.18.213.104]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA19320; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990515102912.00979b80@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:29:12 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905150708.AAA06775@usr09.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.37.19990513101355.0441ba80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:08 15-05-1999 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Remember, what Richard wants is to see your source code. If he can't, he >> gets whiny and petulant and accuses you of being an "evil software >> hoarder." > >You would think that someone as smart as he's portrayed to be would >know how to write a disassembler... Hehe. Or even a commenting decompiler. ;-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 8:30:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DF115212 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 08:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [208.18.213.104]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA19308; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990515102500.00979340@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:25:00 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish Cc: licia@o-o.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905150658.XAA06536@usr09.primenet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990512202146.00958db0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:58 15-05-1999 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >Ian M. Banks and William Gibson both delay definition of terms until >well after they have been mentioned (thrid or fourth mention is in a >context where an explanation is necessary to an outsider, usually by >a minor character to a secondary character). I believe that Jeff Noon >(Vurt, Pollen) uses similar techniques, as did Roger Zelazny. Yes, as long as they do explain it. It does not have to be explained immediately. Postponing the explanation slightly adds suspense and keeps the reader reading. Heck, it may be postponed even considerably, but then the writer needs to assure the reader that the explanation will come eventually, and it has to come on time. This is what they did in the movie Matrix when the leader said that no one could explain what the Matrix was because it needed to be experienced. That was a binding contract with the viewer: You *will* learn what the Matrix is if you keep watching. And I'd say anyone who has seen the movie not only learned what the Matrix was, but will also never forget it. :-) The story was written very well. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 8:34:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FCE14C2A for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 08:34:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [208.18.213.104]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA19999; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990515103351.0097c100@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:33:51 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905150730.AAA07389@usr09.primenet.com> References: <000001be9ea2$4416ad60$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:30 15-05-1999 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >So basically, you're saying that he's not very good at assembly >language programming, since if he was best at that, it'd be his >preferred form... If you ever took a look at gas, you noticed he does not want anyone else to understand assembly language programming either. :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 8:54:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1270F15243 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 08:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [208.18.213.104]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA23439; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990515105336.009867d0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:53:36 -0500 To: Licia From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199905150658.XAA06536@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:48 15-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: >Hehehe interesting, and I've used similar devices before, but I just don't >feel it would go right for this story :) I've posted Episode 2 and the >glossary :) I suggest people either read the episode then look up words in >the glossary, or read the glossary then the episode :) Would you mind reposting its URL? Just because I was there once does not mean I remember where it is. :-) Adam Message glossary: URL - universal resource locator :-) --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 9: 2:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9747214CB5 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 09:02:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-79-122.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.79.122]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19367; Sat, 15 May 1999 12:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA06704; Sat, 15 May 1999 12:03:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199905151603.MAA06704@bellsouth.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 May 1999 07:27:20 -0000." <199905150727.AAA07268@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:03:46 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Just a comment -- there is software developer insurance available, and > > (from what I've heard) most software developers do purchase it. > > I've never heard of this, and I've been paid to code for more than 20 > years now. Any "bond" is really just an insurance policy... they're usually even underwritten by insurance companies (even then ones to get out of jail). Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 9:31:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD1A14FC1 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 09:31:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA01900; Sat, 15 May 1999 18:31:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA40416; Sat, 15 May 1999 18:31:52 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:31:51 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Richard Stallman came to town Message-ID: <19990515183151.D39878@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199905150708.AAA06775@usr09.primenet.com> <000001be9ea2$4416ad60$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <000001be9ea2$4416ad60$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:12:17AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 15, 1999 at 12:12:17AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > He's quite precise: > > The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for > making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source > code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any > associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to > control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a > special exception, the source code distributed need not include > anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary > form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the > operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component > itself accompanies the executable. Where is the version control tree for Emacs, then? That's *my* preferred form for making modifications. Arguments about the need to check out a source code version will be met with arguments about the need to load up code in an editor for me to edit it, and if necessary an extension to a relevant editor that let me load it up directly from the repository :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 9:33:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C4A15027; Sat, 15 May 1999 09:33:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id BAA28238; Sun, 16 May 1999 01:33:47 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <373DA158.62F01B6B@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 01:31:20 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Wes Peters , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Formal methods References: <199905131530.LAA04222@etinc.com> <373CB22B.4843BD45@softweyr.com> <19990515014823.A82329@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <373D5F5C.4D19831F@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > [invariants, pre-conditions, post-conditions] > > As long as programs are written by humans, making human assumptions, > humans will be required to document their assumptions. Such as in modern structured languages. :-) (No, Perl and Python do not qualify! :) Anyway, SPIN does not avoid this, just make it more practical. > One other problem is proof of termination. A computerized proof system > may be able to prove termination of simple loops and some cases of > recursion, but anything more than that gets dangerously close to the > halting problem, which is unsolvable by a deterministic computer. Ghod > knows termination is hard enough to prove for humans... But one can use progress states to determine liveness properties, instead of proving termination. This is a much easier proof, and all that is really needed in most cases. That does not cover all cases, to be sure, and still requires you to know what you are doing, but does not make it unpractical. Finally, there are the partial exaustive searches. A partial exaustive search can cover much more states than a full exaustive search, as it can be restricted to as little as one or two bits of storage for each state. While they do not result in proofs, they do, in practice, find out the bugs. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Proof of Trotsky's farsightedness is that _none_ of his predictions have come true yet." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 10:23:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051nc7.san.rr.com (dt051nc7.san.rr.com [204.210.32.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE66150A0 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 10:23:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051nc7.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12811; Sat, 15 May 1999 10:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Message-ID: <373DAD88.4AC73869@gorean.org> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:23:20 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-BETA-0511 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net, davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chuck Robey wrote: > > On Wed, 12 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > > The point is, while it's possible for someone who can't code to come up > > > with some great idea, it's seldom happened. > > > > Perhaps this is something unique to FreeBSD then. The vast > > majority of the good product ideas I have ever heard came from > > 'mere' users of the product. > > It's possible our experiences differ. I'm mainly interested in OS work, > and I tend to ignore much user stuff. Could that be it? What you're ignoring is that even with an OS project there ARE people who use the stuff. If there weren't a use for what you're doing, it wouldn't have much value except as a mental exercise. If that's really what you're after, more power to you, but honestly it's not very helpful to the project. As for your other point about good ideas rarely coming from people who can't code, you are the poster child for why programmers should never get to decide on their own what they're going to work on. Without a clear design model to start and guide a project the best code in the world won't do you a bit of good. I happen to be an excellent software designer. I am also a pretty fair programmer (although C is not my specialty by any stretch). However my skill at software design comes in no small measure from the fact that I am not limited by "what can be done," at least not by the limited model of what the "programmers" THINK can be done, and therefore are not willing to work beyond. In fact, I will go a whole step further. I got involved with FreeBSD 3 years ago, entirely as a result of my activities on the DALnet IRC network. At that time I couldn't write a single line of C, but I had several ideas that I thought would improve FreeBSD. Three years later I've been able to implement many of those ideas, either because I learned how to code them myself, or because through discussing the ideas with people who CAN write the code they agreed that my ideas were worth their energy and they got done. Now, were my ideas BAD when I couldn't code them, and magically they turned good when I (or someone else) DID write the code? > > I'm not saying you have to cater to people. I'm not saying you > > have to be helpful. I'm saying don't be positively unhelpful and > > dishonest. And "If you think that's such a good idea, why don't you > > code it?" is sarcastic and dishonest. > > Why do you think I owe you code work? If I want to do something, and I > CAN do it, an dyou want to do something else, and you CAN'T do it, it > seems to me to be pretty clear, who is going to get priority. No one is holding a gun to your head. No one is going to, but that's not what this discussion is about. If you are actually arrogant enough to believe that you know everything about everything having to do with freebsd and therefore won't benefit from someone else's ideas on a subject, I say more power to you. However, I have no idea where you drew the connection that says that if I have an idea that I'm somehow asking you to do the work for me. If an idea is good, it's good, no matter whether I can code it or not. At the same time, a good idea doesn't encumber you with a responsibility any more than a bad one does. Your argument has no logic. > > I'm the Director of Coding for the DALnet IRC Network, and I > > made a rule for our coding list -- if you ever say "if that's such > > an idea, why don't you code it?" in the middle of a debate over the > > merits of a feature, you lose your posting privileges. And I'm as > > tired of bad ideas coming from people who can't code as anyone. I > > even don't mind "that's a bad idea, but you wouldn't be able to > > understand why." At least, it's honest. > > Yes, but you're not running a develop-driven open source free coding > project. As a matter of fact, yes we are. All of our coding work is volunteer. David just happens to also be employed as a professional programmer in another context. As a matter of fact, I have quite a lot of experience in trying to persuade volunteer programmers that something which needs doing is worth their time to do. "You can code whatever you want, but if you code 'X' it will get committed" is actually quite a persuasive argument, but only to a certain extent. We have a lot of "good ideas" in the hopper for DALnet which are waiting for someone to come along and code, but that doesn't make them bad ideas. It just makes them unimplemented good ones. > Your viewpoint is different. There is no one person in your > position, to hand down fiats. Again, on DALnet David IS the person who issues the fiats. :) But there is really no way for you to have known that, and it isn't part of the central argument so don't sweat that. The other thing that you're missing entirely is the "Don't bother us if you can't code it yourself" argument serves *only* to piss people off. It doesn't achieve any positive goal, the only possible thing it can do is make you feel a little better. There are a LOT of things that people who want to contribute to the project can do which don't involve a single line of C code. Not to mention that there are a lot of people like me who have experience in software design who could provide valuable feedback on "the big picture" which would be of tremendous benefit to the project, but if all ideas that don't come from programmers are rejected, why should we bother? Quite frankly, if you are ever tempted to respond with "shut up if you can't code it yourself," just don't. You're not helping anyone, and in fact in all likelihood you're probably making things worse. Thanks, Doug Chief Operations Officer, DALnet Internet Relay Chat network To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 10:24:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051nc7.san.rr.com (dt051nc7.san.rr.com [204.210.32.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818A1153DF for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 10:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051nc7.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12815; Sat, 15 May 1999 10:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Message-ID: <373DADCA.F6C2A2A0@gorean.org> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:24:26 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-BETA-0511 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, davids@webmaster.com Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > you lend credibility to those who say that FreeBSD and Linux won't be able > > to compete in the corporate arena because what's coded is what the > > developers want, rather than what the users want/need. > > I don't see it that way so much as the simple fact that a lot of users > basically need to change the way they think of themselves, period, and > that's simply the name of that tune. > > Users have been conditioned by commercial software into becoming > "consumers" rather than seeing this free software stuff for what it > is; the software equivalent of a community building a new meeting hall > through group effort. If the community just sits around in their > houses and periodically calls the meeting hall committee to ask how > construction is going, they wouldn't be particularly surprised to hear > that the answer was continually: "Terrible, where the hell are you > guys?!" With software, for some reason, many people have yet to > make that perceptual leap. That's great Jordan, but the problem is that's not how you're positioning FreeBSD when you talk about it in the media. You can't say on the one hand that FreeBSD is a superior choice for "the real world" of server operating systems and then when the very customer base you've attracted to your product expects a certain level of professionalism respond with; "But we're just a bunch of volunteers!" Of course I'm not talking about the pimply 13 year olds who want FreeBSD to be windows because they don't know any better. Those kinds of "demands" don't deserve a reasoned response, other than perhaps a form letter type cloo stick, which probably won't help anyway but at least then we can say we tried. My point is that you can't have it both ways. You can't say "FreeBSD is a valid solution for the real world demands of commercial use" and at the same time say "but we have no responsibility to actually respond to real world needs." For a long time now the FreeBSD project has needed a clear definition of itself. I unsubscribed from the -advocacy list a few days after it opened because it was immediately apparent that everyone had a different goal, most of which were not compatible with one another, and none of which were going to succeed. The occasional posts that leaks over from -advocacy in the last few months have done nothing to assuage my opinion. Until you, DG, core, WC, or WHOEVER is willing to put 'em up on the table and say, "We are THIS," FreeBSD is going to continue to founder around in the miasma it's been mired in for the last 3 years. The fact that we have accomplished as much as we HAVE in the last 3 years is purely testimony to the stubborness and force of will of many of its adherents. Because most of the dogs are pulling in a vaguely similar direction, the sled moves forward, albeit not as fast as it might. However we are never going to be able to compete with anyone, be it microsoft, linux, or whoever if we're not willing to define and implement a clear vision of who and what we are. Hell, "We are a purely developer-driven vanity OS which happens to be the best solution for certain server applications" is an acceptable definition, if someone would just step up and say that. It's not the definition that *I* want, but I don't get to make those decisions. The problem with a clear definition of purpose is that we're going to lose some talented people who can't/won't work under that paradigm. Well guess what, that is ALREADY HAPPENING. What people fail to take into consideration is the new talent that would be drawn to the project if it was made clear that the project supported goals that are important to them. As for your other argument INRE "that's a good idea but we have no one to do it," that's a copout, plain and simple. If the project had adopted a firm policy of "No gratuitous gcc-ism's in the base" 2 years ago when replacing gcc (or better yet, making the base completely compiler independant) was first discussed, we'd be done by now, not just finishing the first phase as we are with the egcs merge. If the project had implemented a firm policy of "all third party sources must be contrib-ified when they are upgraded" x number of years ago, that project would (in all likelihood) be done by now too. I could go on and on, but I won't. Both because I've already covered a lot of this stuff and because I'm not suffering under the delusion that I'm going to change anyone's mind here. In the last few months while I've been away from the day-to-day stuff I can see that a few things have changed, but most of them haven't. I expected that of course, and in fact because my expectations were so low I've actually been pleasantly surprised. The egcs move is a good one. Stuff like that, and the CVS upgrade are actually much more important than I think a lot of people realize. It's too bad that it has taken so damn long to do, but sometimes that's just life in free-software land. In case anyone has missed it, my point is simple. If FreeBSD (collectively) wants to be more than a footnote to the history of unix development, it MUST change the way it does things. Period, end of story. Whether it's willing to do that or not, I don't know. I really hope so, but if I was taking bets I wouldn't be able to give better than even money because I'm just not sure. The really sad thing is that while we're unwilling to provide the world, or even ourselves with a clear definition of who we are, microsoft and linux are more than willing to define themselves in terms that WE actually deliver on, and they are incapable of living up to. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 10:58:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7187214C9F; Sat, 15 May 1999 10:58:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA28176; Sat, 15 May 1999 10:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:55:23 -0700 (PDT) From: rick hamell To: pdx-freebsd@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Portland (Oregon) FUG Update Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In case you didn't know, our next meeting has been scheduled for this coming thursday, which will be the 20th. The time will be the same as last month, 6:30pm. The location is going to be the PSU Miller Libarary, rm #160. We're planning on doing the Pizza thing also. :) The topic is going to be setting up PPP, by Ted Middlestat. We're planning on doing several setups, so bring your own computer if you need/want it setup. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 11:30:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D53814F5F for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:30:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09148 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <373DBD37.D2BE2971@seattleu.edu> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:30:15 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: distributed.net stats Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Japan FreeBSD Users Group is ahead of Japan Linux Users Group in the team stats, and we're running 202 fewer machines. This may not mean anything at all, but it is kind of neat. JFUG? - approx 1119 KKeys/sec/machine JLUG? - approx 650 KKeys/sec/machine http://rc5stats.distributed.net/rc5-64/tmsummary.php3?team=1277 -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 11:36:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D998E14F5F for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09434; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <369EB228.87CBFB4@seattleu.edu> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:12:40 -0800 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > > > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > I've found myself unable to sleep many times thinking "if only C > > > offered feature X or Y to make this faster..." this leaves me VERY > > > open to suggestions for a replacement. :) > > > > > > Java gets you banished to the wasteland. > > > > Java...I mean...upl..AAAGGGHH > > *brandishing banishing stick* > > upl? have a web pointer? > It was supposed to be "ulp" as in swallowing. Banish me twice for not proofing my messages. -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 13:46:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1812114BD7 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 13:46:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA51153; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:43:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Studded Cc: davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-Reply-To: <373DAD88.4AC73869@gorean.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 15 May 1999, Studded wrote: > What you're ignoring is that even with an OS project there ARE people who > use the stuff. If there weren't a use for what you're doing, it wouldn't > have much value except as a mental exercise. If that's really what you're > after, more power to you, but honestly it's not very helpful to the > project. And what you're ignoring is that the developers write the stuff, and they AREN'T paid by you. They write it because they want to write it, and if you try to force them to do what you want, they will just go away. The *vast* majority of users who can't code need extremely large amounts of help to realize that 99% of their new ideas are either already implemented or proven worthless. The folks who can code do not want to spend 99% of their time telling this to people. I'm not saying they won't help at all; I'm saying that there must be some limits, so that the more outrageous suggestions don't waste everyone's time. Before I became completely convinced of this, I spent 2 monts once with one very stubborn new user who was convinced it would be of incredible use to catalog all possible patterns of bits. He kept pestering me to spend all my time writing an OS that would recognize all patterns as programs, and couldn't understand why not all patterns would be useful. Lord knows I spent endless hours trying to make that guy understand. > As for your other point about good ideas rarely coming from people who > can't code, you are the poster child for why programmers should never get > to decide on their own what they're going to work on. Right there, there's your problem. In FreeBSD, programmers DO make that decision. You have the option of banging your head on the wall and screaming about it, or learning to code yourself. You DON'T have the option of forcing the developers to do what you want. If you can't handle that simple piece of reality, then the discussion is moot. > > Yes, but you're not running a develop-driven open source free coding > > project. > > As a matter of fact, yes we are. All of our coding work is volunteer. Oh, yeah? And do you force your developers to code what the non-develoers want? How do you force them? Developers here do what they want to do. > > Your viewpoint is different. There is no one person in your > > position, to hand down fiats. > > Again, on DALnet David IS the person who issues the fiats. :) But there is > really no way for you to have known that, and it isn't part of the central > argument so don't sweat that. Ahh, then you admit you hand down fiats? The point was that fiats don't exist like that in FreeBSD. Again, that's reality. > Quite frankly, if you are ever tempted to respond with "shut up if you > can't code it yourself," just don't. You're not helping anyone, and in fact > in all likelihood you're probably making things worse. Funny thing here is, all the rude responses like "shut up if you can't code it yourself," have originated from you and David, not anyone from FreeBSD. The responses from FreeBSD have been polite ones (meaning the same thing, albeit) but you'd rather it looked otherwise, so as to bolster your arguments? ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 13:54:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CFCA14BD7 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 13:54:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06005; Sat, 15 May 1999 13:54:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd005922; Sat May 15 13:54:03 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA27445; Sat, 15 May 1999 13:54:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905152054.NAA27445@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish To: zen@buddhist.com (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:54:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, licia@o-o.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990515102500.00979340@mail.bfm.org> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at May 15, 99 10:25:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Ian M. Banks and William Gibson both delay definition of terms until > >well after they have been mentioned (thrid or fourth mention is in a > >context where an explanation is necessary to an outsider, usually by > >a minor character to a secondary character). I believe that Jeff Noon > >(Vurt, Pollen) uses similar techniques, as did Roger Zelazny. > > Yes, as long as they do explain it. It does not have to be explained > immediately. Postponing the explanation slightly adds suspense and keeps > the reader reading. > > Heck, it may be postponed even considerably, but then the writer needs to > assure the reader that the explanation will come eventually, and it has to > come on time. That's why I said "serial shock". Because it's being posted in installments, people are trying to grok the installment on its own merit, and large works don't work like that. This leads to unfair criticisms about unidentified terms. Personally, I wouldn't have posted a glossary (but then, I avidly waded through the cacophony that is the first chapter of Brunner's "Stand On Zanzibar", to discover the wonderful novel that followed it). I remember reading Larry Niven's "The Integral Trees" for the first time in serialized form in Analog magazine; much of the nuances of the relationship of the people to the CARN to the S.I. Kendy, and the relative relationship to "The State" of all the players wasn't clear until later installments; it wasn't clear that Kendy was a Silicon Intelligence (uploaded human mind -- the term A.I> isn't really appropriate) until the second installment. Trying to keep these nuances in your head of three months until the final installment was, uh, ...good practice. > This is what they did in the movie Matrix when the leader said that no one > could explain what the Matrix was because it needed to be experienced. That > was a binding contract with the viewer: You *will* learn what the Matrix is > if you keep watching. And I'd say anyone who has seen the movie not only > learned what the Matrix was, but will also never forget it. :-) The story > was written very well. Maybe reading ~5000 SF novels (so far -- my preferred entertainment is reading) has jaded me, but I figured out the secret of The Matrix from the movie trailers. Any other Jack L. Chalker readers come to the same conclusion before seeing the movie? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 14:11:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7AFB151F9 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 14:11:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r38.bfm.org [208.18.213.134]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA07803; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990515161117.009664a0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:11:17 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish Cc: licia@o-o.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905152054.NAA27445@usr07.primenet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990515102500.00979340@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:54 15-05-1999 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >That's why I said "serial shock". Because it's being posted in >installments, people are trying to grok the installment on its own >merit, and large works don't work like that. This leads to unfair >criticisms about unidentified terms. It wasn't criticism. It was a question, followed by a suggestion. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 14:38:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C56214BD4 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 14:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 15 May 1999 14:38:09 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Chuck Robey" , "Studded" Cc: Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:38:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be9f1b$395c0d60$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > As a matter of fact, yes we are. All of our coding work is volunteer. > Oh, yeah? And do you force your developers to code what the > non-develoers want? How do you force them? Developers here do what > they want to do. It's funny, you seem to think it's impossible to make volunteers do what the thing they're volunteering for wants them to do. The Red Cross has no problem doing it. It's not nearly as difficult as you might think. You just have to manipulate the right carrots and the right sticks. It's really that simple. I've managed some pretty large volunteer projects. It's not easy, but it's not impossible either. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 15:13:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A2914C3D for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13843; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905152211.PAA13843@implode.root.com> To: "David Schwartz" Cc: "Chuck Robey" , "Studded" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 May 1999 14:38:08 PDT." <000001be9f1b$395c0d60$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:11:52 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> > As a matter of fact, yes we are. All of our coding work is volunteer. > >> Oh, yeah? And do you force your developers to code what the >> non-develoers want? How do you force them? Developers here do what >> they want to do. > > It's funny, you seem to think it's impossible to make volunteers do what >the thing they're volunteering for wants them to do. The Red Cross has no >problem doing it. It's not nearly as difficult as you might think. > > You just have to manipulate the right carrots and the right sticks. It's >really that simple. I've managed some pretty large volunteer projects. It's >not easy, but it's not impossible either. Chuck is more right. While we do have some influence, people still work on whatever they want. Things are a bit more difficult in a free software project since the programming is often highly specialized. It's not the same thing as being part of the envelop stuffing team at e.g. the Red Cross. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 15:37:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29AE14CC7 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05749; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:37:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd005728; Sat May 15 15:37:19 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA03142; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:37:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905152237.PAA03142@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:37:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chuckr@picnic.mat.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000a01be9d6c$b4dffec0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at May 13, 99 11:16:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org First off: David, tabstops are 8 characters! Lines formatted like: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Are unreadable, especially when you don't limit yourself to 72 characters, and the lines wrap. OK, that out of the way... > > OK. Much of what I'm going to say here is pure opinion, understand; I > > don't hold it forth as fact (like I did the top paragraph). The > > situation that I *think* you want, where the users do the controlling, > > doesn't now and never did exist. I've worked for enough companies to > > know that you code for your boss, not the public, and what the boss > > wants very often has nearly nothing at all to do with that which the > > public is clamoring for. There are isolated cases where the connection > > between want and need is closer, but it's not the rule. > > > > My, that sound cynical. > > No, it sounds silly. In an organized project, someone makes the decision > about which ideas turn into code and which don't. The extent to which that > decision is or is not distributed varies. Almost always some such capacity > remains with the programmers. My personal experience in both free and commercial work meshes with Chuck's experience. I will go further than he did, however: it is infrequent that anyone can do anything revolutionary unless they are a part of a small team working in isolation, and they control all aspects of their project. At its absolute best, "the masses" get what they need, which may or may not be what they want. At its absolute worst, you burn several million investor dollars and several years of your and the other people in it with you's lives, for no gain. A free project is driven by what people are willing to code, and by what the people with the keys to the source tree are willing to commit. A commercial concern is driven by money, and by what they believe people are willing to buy. You are very lucky if the people at the very top are driven by something other than closing in on their exit strategy. They are almost never driven by vision, and if they are, they are generally ousted by the risk adverse among the investors. The gating success factors for companies are vision, process, and the 800 pound gorilla. Success is defined in terms of ROI. If a company is driven by a talented 800 pound gorilla, it can be successful, as measured by income. Steve Jobs is a good example of a talented 800 pound gorilla. In general, however, gorillas can only beat up so many people at a time, and companies which depend upon the gorilla do not scale above 12 to 16 employees. A talented 800 pound gorilla can only keep his thumbs in 12 to 16 pies at a time. A smart 800 pound gorilla (like Jobs) will delegate the micromanagement to his trusted lieutenants, and then will personally micromanage only the lieutenants. This results in crisis management policies, otherwise known as "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". If a company is driven by a well engineered process, then the process is the product. USL is a company like this (or was; I have no idea what effect SCO has had on it; I know Novell had none), where it is more important to follow the process than it is to do any other job task. That said, a company can design a process without it becoming the product, and which will produce results: you turn the crank, out come the results. Such a company is a machine, and can be successful at tasks where precision is important. Many military and aerospace contractors are drive by well engineered process, without the folly of the process becoming the product. The folly, however, is a very seductive trap. If a company is driven by a well articulated vision, then it is also capable of being successful. A well articulated vision is one which everyone understands, and on which everyone agrees. The well articulated vision serves the employes as a litmus test. For every set of options, they can hold up the vision, examine it, and choose the option that is right for the company. However, a well articulated will not cause you to, for example, set up a CVS tree instead of writing production code; the danger is one of becoming shortsighted, and focussing on short term objectives. Focus is no substitute for vision. Each of these models has the capablity of being successful, and each has its (very seductive) traps. In general, I would say that the 800 pound gorilla model is OK for a startup, but when you hit the scaling barrier for your particular gorilla, you need to eject it, and put in a general manager in its place. Failure to do this will result in tiered crisis management begoming rampant. Such organizations can be recognized by their non-flat architecture. That said, the traditional American "lift yourself up by your bootstraps" model in general, and the Silicon Valley Entrepneurial Venture Funding model, in particular, depend upon seeing a gorilla. This is, IMO, why so many S.V. startups fail: inability to scale. You can't grow beyond the ability of your gorilla to micromanage. I believe some process is necessary. For example, a process whereby an engineer is asked to make time commitments based on functional requirements, and then there is no negotiation permitted for any additional time for productization requirements, is fundamentally flawed; it neglects the necessary negotiation which allows the total time cost to be considered in the equation for the total of both the functional and productization times, per feature. Such processes tend to come about as the result of crisis management; not surprisingly, this is, IMO, why so many S.V. startups so rarely meet their ship dates for products. I believe vision is paramount. I personally will not work at a company without vision, or on a project without vision. The vision must be both clearly articulated, and universally interpreted (mostly due to the clarity of the articulation), if the company is to be successful. Vision is a quality that is antithetical to the 800 pound gorilla. A company with vision knows what the future will look like, and intends to get there "come hell or high water", and God help those who get in the way. But having a vision is not enough. There must be a roadmap, a decree of "how we get there from here". If there isn't, then it's very hard to decide what the next step should be. A company can't look ten years ahead, and actually get there, unless it knows what's 6 weeks ahead in that direction, or what products are along the road to keep it going. In general, we come back to the S.V. issue of crisis management: deal only with that which is in front of you. It is a corruptor of vision, which replaces it with a poor substitute: focus. This is, IMO, why you always hear Dilbertesque phrases, like "let's focus on getting the release out", or "we need to put all the wood behind one arrow", or "we need to all row in one direction" out of S.V. startups. These startups frequently fail as a result of stumbling around blindly, for lack of vision. Feel free to draw what parallels you will between these categories and free software projects. > There are many ways and reasons a project can fail. Code dictates that have > little to do with 'customer' demand is a common one. But it's just as > possible to fail because programmers code things that customers don't > demand. This isn't true, at least not for companies. For a company, doing engineering of any low level short of outright fraud can make success possible. Sales are driven by marketing, not engineering. In fact, I would say that the value engineering has is only in terms of _repeat customers_, not _inital customers_. The amount of effort that a company puts into engineering is irrelevent, if there are no initial customers to prime the pump. There are generally two ways to cash in on good engineering, both having to do repetition. The first is _repeat sales_, where you sell another of the same product into the customer, and the second is _the customer relationship_, where you make a sell of a different product into the customer, based on their satisfaction with the initial product. Companies with perishable/consumable products must manage the ongoing customer relationship to encourage repeat sales. Companmies with product lines must manage the ongoing customer relationship to promote horizontal ownership of the customers patronage. Note the important yet subtle conclusion this forces: if you want repeat customers, you have to give the customer what they need, even if it isn't what they want. Long term satisfaction builds the relationship. On the other hand, if you want repeat sales, then you have to give the customer what they want, even if it isn't what they need (how many nutritionally balanced fast food places are in your neighborhood?). Where does this leave one product companies? Well, if they are smart, it leaves them giving the customer what they need, but at the same time satisfying the want, right? Wrong. A company needs to decide whether they are going to be a repeat sales company, or a repeat customer company, and commit to the course. Otherwise, they are blindly groping themselves in an attempt to give the customer both what they want AND what they need, and these sets are almost entirely mutually exclusive, to one degree or another. And the failure to commit to a course of action is, IMO, the reason so many S.V. companies just dwindle away in their first year, without making a mark on the world. > The big issue is, when you are dealing with a non-commercial project, > what is your definition of 'fail'? What, indeed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 16:42:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D6F14D3D for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:42:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA64141; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Studded Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, davids@webmaster.com Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 May 1999 10:24:26 PDT." <373DADCA.F6C2A2A0@gorean.org> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:42:52 -0700 Message-ID: <64137.926811772@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > we tried. My point is that you can't have it both ways. You can't say > "FreeBSD is a valid solution for the real world demands of commercial use" > and at the same time say "but we have no responsibility to actually respond > to real world needs." Sorry to disappoint you, but that's exactly what we have. You're falling into the same trap as the others again - you're looking at a free software product as somehow equivalent to commercial OSes in every respect and of course that's not the case. Just because FreeBSD is a "valid solution for the real world demands of yadda yadda" (and it is) doesn't make it an *equivalent* solution to a fully commercial product and you need to understand and appreciate the limitations of having an all-volunteer crew when you sign on. FreeBSD is at the stage where its very professionalism becomes something of a liability in this respect, our simulation of commercial OS development being close enough that many people have begun to perceive us as playing in the same pool as Solaris or SCO in every respect. This is not the case, and it's not a question of technical merit, speedy response to users questions, comparative bug counts or any of the things that engineers measure when they're assessing the worthiness of a commercial OS solution, it's a question of predictability. I cannot predict to a "customer" just when feature X is going to make it in or if the 3 developers currently working on it will remain there and not go onto something else, or even if feature X will remain a priority for the project at large. In a commercial OS, the marketing department sets the objectives and lots of engineers are paid to fulfill them - whether they're the right objectives or not, or whether the engineers actually succeed is almost immaterial. What's important is that the company in question can tell its customers that a committment to feature X exists and is part of the operating system's road map. I, on the other hand, can make vague hand-waving motions about how someone MIGHT be working on this and it MIGHT become a feature that's actually usable, but there's no predictability at all. What you're buying for your money is predictability, not quality, not even assurances that you'll make it, simply the ability to say that work is being done in a "serious" manner. To put it another way, when people ask me what new features will be in FreeBSD over the next 12 months, I have to shrug my shoulders and say "how the hell should I know?" This also comes as quite a shock to folks who think I'm somehow supposed to know these things or that it's even possible to know. When you have a set of developers who fade in and out at random intervals or who accomplish sudden, superhuman feats of programming and move long-stalled projects forward by months in just a few days, you can't predict a thing. I also used the plan out all the things that "would be really nice" at the beginning of the year and post this as a roadmap, but these roadmaps turned into liabilities once I found out how few of the items on it got done at the end of the year and that users expected ALL of those items to have been done, treating the roadmap as more of a committment, and got very pissy about it when only some of the "promises" were fulfilled. It doesn't matter how many disclaimers you slap on it either, people expect us to fulfill our mission statements just like the commercial organizations do. > As for your other argument INRE "that's a good idea but we have no one to > do it," that's a copout, plain and simple. If the project had adopted a No, it's the truth, plain and simple. Where are your contributions? If you want more predictability and scheduling, then be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem. I just see a lot of vague, pointless bitching here and I honestly don't see anything more than that. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 16:46:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2EA14E84 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:46:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA64173; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Chuck Robey Cc: Studded , davids@webmaster.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 May 1999 16:43:11 EDT." Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:45:46 -0700 Message-ID: <64169.926811946@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And what you're ignoring is that the developers write the stuff, and > they AREN'T paid by you. They write it because they want to write it, > and if you try to force them to do what you want, they will just go > away. > .. > Right there, there's your problem. In FreeBSD, programmers DO make that > decision. You have the option of banging your head on the wall and > screaming about it, or learning to code yourself. You DON'T have the > option of forcing the developers to do what you want. I just thought this so well said that I had to quote it again. That's exactly the situation in a nutshell and I wish I'd been as succinct in my own reply to Don. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 17: 0: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255B814E84; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.224]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06967; Sat, 15 May 1999 18:00:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <373E0A7F.3FCAD1BA@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:59:59 -0600 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Fwd: SourceXChange - get paid for open source Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just received this on the BeDevTalk mailing list, and thought FreeBSD people may be interested in this too. I have directed followups to the -chat list. > HP and O'Reilly have started a web site that allows developers and clients to > find each other for the purpose of writing paid open source code. > > The site is up, but not operating yet. You can sign up for an announcement > mailing list that will let you know when to register. > > http://www.sourcexchange.com -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 17:28:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0978914D39 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:28:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.152.128]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990516003100.HKVW7471167.mta1-rme@wocker> for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 12:31:00 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:28:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: if you want something, do it yourself Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990516003100.HKVW7471167.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Over the past few months, I've been watching more and more threads go by where people want FreeBSD to go this way or include these features. Or we're not doing it right. We have to do it this way. We need this in order to do that. It reminds me of the politics within a large commercial organisation with people protecting their turf, the status quo, and watching their ass. But nobody actually going out and doing something. They are just trying to stop others from impinging upon their territory. Such tactics not very beneficial to the group. That really isn't what the FreeBSD project is about, IMHO. If I see it correctly, something gets written because it is useful to someone. Perhaps just one person. They write it because they want to. Not because they think it will improve FreeBSD. Or make FreeBSD more popular than Linux. Or put one more nail in the MS coffin. They do it because *they* want to do it. This situation is vastly different from the commercial world where someone up the chain of command decides that we must do X and then those below do what they can to get X implemented. In such an environment, people generally do the work because they get paid to do it. If you are lucky, you also enjoy your work but most people don't often get the luxury of deciding what they will do at their job. [please no counter-examples] The same analogy applies to FreeBSD project work. I had wanted to use someone else as an example, but I felt that was unfair. So I'll use myself. The articles which I write are of concern to me. I assume they will also be of interest to others. For the most part, people appreciate having the articles online. They say they benefit from it. That's great. It's part of my contribution. A few people complain about things which are not the way they want them to be. Well, I'm sorry, but in a perfect world, we'd have everything we want. I do what I do because I like doing it. Anything which involves unpaid volunteers is like that. The work is done because it is interesting work. The volunteer gets something out of it. That's the prime motivation. We are each an individual. We do something not because someone else wants it done, but because we want it done. That's the way the project works. If someone wants the project to head in a different direction, they should start heading in that direction. Perhaps someone will follow. Perhaps not. But you are the person to make that path decision. Nobody else. Stand up, declare what you want to do and ask for volunteers to help you. But saying that you want someone to do it for you isn't the way. If you want something done, do it yourself. -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 18: 1:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10B914EB8 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 18:01:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13495; Sat, 15 May 1999 20:01:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:01:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990515105336.009867d0@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 15 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 09:48 15-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: > >Hehehe interesting, and I've used similar devices before, but I just don't > >feel it would go right for this story :) I've posted Episode 2 and the > >glossary :) I suggest people either read the episode then look up words in > >the glossary, or read the glossary then the episode :) > > Would you mind reposting its URL? Just because I was there once does not > mean I remember where it is. :-) > > Adam > > Message glossary: URL - universal resource locator :-) > --- > Want to design your own web counter? > Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ > (chuckles) Sorry, it's all available at http://www.o-o.org/~licia/writing/serials/retrain/ I apologize for the forced/stilted feel to episode 2, I'll try to do better in episode 3 :) [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 18:13:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A76B15286 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 18:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13542; Sat, 15 May 1999 20:13:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:13:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990515161117.009664a0@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 15 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 20:54 15-05-1999 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > >That's why I said "serial shock". Because it's being posted in > >installments, people are trying to grok the installment on its own > >merit, and large works don't work like that. This leads to unfair > >criticisms about unidentified terms. > > It wasn't criticism. It was a question, followed by a suggestion. > > Adam > --- > Want to design your own web counter? > Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ > I took it exactly as such, thought it was a good and interesting suggestion, and gave it careful thought :) (at worst it was a -constructive criticism-, which I always welcome. I'm very out of practice with this type or writing, and need all the constructive criticism and feedback I can get :) ) Besides, I like you, you can criticize me if you want to ;) [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 18:45: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC1614ED0 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 18:44:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r3.bfm.org [208.18.213.99]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA04657; Sat, 15 May 1999 21:43:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990515204348.00970850@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:43:48 -0500 To: Licia From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990515105336.009867d0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:01 15-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: >(chuckles) Sorry, it's all available at > >http://www.o-o.org/~licia/writing/serials/retrain/ OK, thanks. >I apologize for the forced/stilted feel to episode 2, I'll try to do better in >episode 3 :) Nothing stilted about it. In fact, it seems better than episode 1 :). Although, I think I know exactly why the cops are after those kids: I was a volunteer deputy sheriff for 6 years, and never ate donuts on duty! But those kids think all cops do is eat donuts. Sheesh! That is why the cops want to get to them: To explain to them what police work is really about. Well, we'll see in episode 3, won't we. :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 18:47:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C71A614C87 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 18:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 15 May 1999 18:47:46 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/pci pcisupport.c Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:47:46 -0700 Message-ID: <000401be9f3e$18e879b0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199905152237.PAA03142@usr07.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At its absolute best, "the masses" get what they need, which may or > may not be what they want. At its absolute worst, you burn several > million investor dollars and several years of your and the other > people in it with you's lives, for no gain. Far better the masses get what they need than what they want. There's an old consultant's saying -- if you have a customer that's causing you problems, give them what they want instead of what they need. Trust me, this is _strong_ medicine. I've never had to do it more than once. It's so easy to believe that there's nothing you can do, because then there's nothing you have to do. But it's not true. You are deceiving yourselves. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 15 18:52:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512BD14C87 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 18:52:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r3.bfm.org [208.18.213.99]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA05974; Sat, 15 May 1999 21:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990515205203.00974550@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:52:03 -0500 To: Licia From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Is it ok to use the FreeBSD name in a cyberpunkish Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990515161117.009664a0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:13 15-05-1999 -0500, Licia wrote: >I took it exactly as such, thought it was a good and interesting >suggestion, and gave it careful thought :) (at worst it was a -constructive >criticism-, which I always welcome. I'm very out of practice with this type >or writing, and need all the constructive criticism and feedback I can get :) ) > >Besides, I like you, you can criticize me if you want to ;) Why, thank you, Licia. :-) I am a published writer, and until two months ago was the president of Rhinleander Area Writers, so I *can* offer you constructive criticism if you wish. But if so, I'll do it in private email. All in all, it is very well written, especially episode 2. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 16 5:11:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BD9152D9 for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 05:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.172]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA59A2; Sun, 16 May 1999 14:11:27 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00798; Sun, 16 May 1999 14:11:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990516003100.HKVW7471167.mta1-rme@wocker> Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:11:46 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Dan Langille Subject: RE: if you want something, do it yourself Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-May-99 Dan Langille wrote: > The same analogy applies to FreeBSD project work. I had wanted to use > someone else as an example, but I felt that was unfair. So I'll use > myself. The articles which I write are of concern to me. I assume they > will also be of interest to others. For the most part, people appreciate > having the articles online. They say they benefit from it. That's > great. Isn't that what Undernet's #FreeBSD has been about all along? And to the rest: Amen bro. Glad to see ye feel the same... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 16 9:43:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB76714CBB for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 09:43:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18393.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.73]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA24799; Sun, 16 May 1999 12:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA43349; Sun, 16 May 1999 12:44:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:44:42 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Dean Lombardo Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nt source licenses... Message-ID: <19990516124441.A43261@mAd> References: <373EBEC5.D8B1E0E0@excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <373EBEC5.D8B1E0E0@excite.com>; from Dean Lombardo on Sun, May 16, 1999 at 01:49:09PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [-current -=> -chat] [Re: stealing an NTFS implementation after getting an NT source license] On Sun, May 16, 1999 at 01:49:09PM +0100, Dean Lombardo wrote: > > OK - perhaps I should rephrase it - they *can* sue, but they are not > very likely to do so without good reason. Do you really think that Besides that, even if they did sue, while it would certainly have some negative effects, we'd get a lot of useful publicity. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 16 10:51:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fasterix.frmug.org (d181.paris-84.cybercable.fr [212.198.84.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B9914E40; Sun, 16 May 1999 10:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pb@fasterix.frmug.org) Received: (from pb@localhost) by fasterix.frmug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/pb-19990315) id TAA22072; Sun, 16 May 1999 19:51:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990516195110.A22057@fasterix.frmug.fr.net> Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:51:10 +0200 From: Pierre Beyssac To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Wes Peters Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, GPL, the world today. References: <199905131530.LAA04222@etinc.com> <373CB22B.4843BD45@softweyr.com> <19990515014823.A82329@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.8i In-Reply-To: <19990515014823.A82329@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Sat, May 15, 1999 at 01:48:23AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 15, 1999 at 01:48:23AM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > Didn't Knuth say "I've only proven TeX to be correct, I haven't tested > it" or some such? That's a quote in /usr/src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes: "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald Knuth -- Pierre Beyssac pb@fasterix.frmug.org pb@fasterix.freenix.org {Free,Net,Open}BSD, Linux : il y a moins bien, mais c'est plus cher Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-manager@EU.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 16 12:57:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.ham.muohio.edu (dragon.ham.muohio.edu [134.53.147.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8AD1512C; Sun, 16 May 1999 12:57:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from updates-request@wotsit.org) Received: from smtp.yourwebhost.com (smtp.yourwebhost.com [209.239.47.254]) by dragon.ham.muohio.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA28612 for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 16:24:03 -0400 Received: from anna.yourwebhost.com (diningasia.com [209.239.47.175]) by smtp.yourwebhost.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA08838; Sun, 16 May 1999 15:54:41 -0400 Received: (from wotsit@localhost) by anna.yourwebhost.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id PAA27029; Sun, 16 May 1999 15:56:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: anna.yourwebhost.com: wotsit set sender to updates-request@wotsit.org using -f Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990516204002.0096f470@pop3.demon.co.uk> X-Sender: wotsit@pop3.demon.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:40:02 +0100 To: updates@wotsit.org From: Paul Oliver Subject: Wotsit's Format Update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1 X-Loop: updates@wotsit.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The programmer's resource at http://www.wotsit.org has been updated again. I apologise for the lack of update E-mails recently, I have now implemented the update list in a different way which should make the process work better. 18 files have been added or modified in the last 7 days, use the "Wot's New" search facility on the site to view the list. If you have any useful programming information to share, or can suggest improvements to the site, or suggest different categories for files... please get in touch. /-----------------------------------------------------------------\ |The Programmers File Formats Collection| Wotsit's Format | | http://www.wotsit.org |Mail:webmaster@wotsit.org| \-----------------------------------------------------------------/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 16 16: 0:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36CD1500E for ; Sun, 16 May 1999 16:00:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jabley@clear.co.nz) Received: from buddha.clear.net.nz (buddha.clear.net.nz [192.168.24.106]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA29644; Mon, 17 May 1999 11:00:40 +1200 (NZST) From: jabley@clear.co.nz Received: (from jabley@localhost) by buddha.clear.net.nz (8.9.3/8.9.2) id LAA39735; Mon, 17 May 1999 11:00:37 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from jabley@clear.co.nz) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:00:37 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199905162300.LAA39735@buddha.clear.net.nz> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Seti project / stats reset, new version available References: <199905162300.LAA09345@mx2.clear.net.nz> In-Reply-To: <199905162300.LAA09345@mx2.clear.net.nz> X-Loop: jabley@clear.co.nz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I am currently away from the office. If you are mailing about an urgent operational issue, please raise it through official support channels to ensure rapid escalation and resolution. Joe -- Joe Abley Tel +64 9 912-4065, Fax +64 9 912-5008 Network Architect, CLEAR Communications Ltd http://www.clear.net.nz/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 3:34:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840DE15684; Mon, 17 May 1999 03:33:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id DAA09291; Mon, 17 May 1999 03:33:03 -0700 (PDT) From: tedm@toybox.placo.com Received: from toybox.placo.com (tedsbox [192.168.1.20]) by toybox.placo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA10517; Mon, 17 May 1999 02:10:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: by toybox.placo.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.14/(3.0sos) id AA0047; Mon, 17 May 99 02:12:43 -0700 Message-Id: <9905170912.AA0047@toybox.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 17 May 99 02:11:47 -0800 To: "rick hamell" , pdx-freebsd@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Portland (Oregon) FUG Update X-Mailer: Ultimedia Mail/2 Lite, IBM T. J. Watson Research Center Content-Id: <46_99_1_926921507> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, no one has responded to my last question of which style of presentation - so I'm assuming that nobody will be bringing in machines. Ted //--- forwarded letter ------------------------------------------------------- MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 15 May 99 10:55:23 -0700 From: "rick hamell" To: pdx-freebsd@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Portland (Oregon) FUG Update In case you didn't know, our next meeting has been scheduled for this coming thursday, which will be the 20th. The time will be the same as last month, 6:30pm. The location is going to be the PSU Miller Libarary, rm #160. We're planning on doing the Pizza thing also. :) The topic is going to be setting up PPP, by Ted Middlestat. We're planning on doing several setups, so bring your own computer if you need/want it setup. :) Rick //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Ted Mittelstaedt - tedm@toybox.placo.com // // Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 6: 5:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.13.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D9B14BF4 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 06:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA17041; Mon, 17 May 1999 10:05:29 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:05:29 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: jack Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 May 1999, jack wrote: > Today The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn using > > FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop right now, and > > I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should only be using that where > > we *have* to (some of our applications require Solaris)... > > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/npgallery.html Great...but slight problem is *how* are these ppl using FreeBSD? Technically, I could probably throw Acadia University (in Canada) on that list since I use FreeBSD as my desktop machine...not quite what I'd want someone to weigh a decision on though... The Advocacy one is slightly better, but I question accuracy...when did HotMail switch from Solaris to FreeBSD? Last I heard, they tried to switch to NT and then moved back to Solaris... And Yahoo...I thought they were a heterogenous vs homogeneous network...they didn't use just one OS but several different ones. The Advocacy site, though, says "exclusively"... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 6:25: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.13.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C348414CA5 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 06:25:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA17157; Mon, 17 May 1999 10:25:22 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:25:22 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: jack Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 May 1999, jack wrote: > Today The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn using > > FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop right now, and > > I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should only be using that where > > we *have* to (some of our applications require Solaris)... > > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html Need to split off ISPs from "Everyone Else" on this list...an ISP running FreeBSD doesn't hold much weight in the "Corporate World" :( And having to weed through them all is almost nightmarish :( Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 6:28:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.13.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3252B14D93 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 06:28:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA17248; Mon, 17 May 1999 10:28:29 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:28:29 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: jack Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 May 1999, jack wrote: > Today The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn using > > FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop right now, and > > I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should only be using that where > > we *have* to (some of our applications require Solaris)... > > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html *slap forehead* does the following entry *really* provide anyone any weight as far as credibility is concerned? Microsnot Corp. -- We at Microsnot make a killing off of stealing idea's from small independent software companies, and we love our jobs. But most recently, we decided we are going to take over the world. Hell, I'm already the richest man in the world, and with all our buddies from the government to help us, we shouldn't have any problems what so ever. Oh yeah, I would like also to thank Mr. Clinton for the tax break last year. We use FreeBSD to run all of our important servers, because our latest scam, known publicaly as Winblows 98, crashed on natioinal TV. We tell everyone we have the bugs out, but we still don't take any chances. Thanks FreeBSD, its people like you with good ideas that keep us going, we couldn't do it with out you. - William Gates (founder and CEO) Is that Category questions down their really nessary and what the hell is Non-Profit? > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/npgallery.html > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst > jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. > Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. > PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD > enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 8:13: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC063153F9 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 08:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA12953; Mon, 17 May 1999 17:12:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA53240; Mon, 17 May 1999 17:12:59 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:12:59 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... Message-ID: <19990517171259.A53217@bitbox.follo.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:05:29AM -0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:05:29AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > The Advocacy one is slightly better, but I question accuracy...when did > HotMail switch from Solaris to FreeBSD? Last I heard, they tried to > switch to NT and then moved back to Solaris... For the mail servers, yes. They use FreeBSD for their web servers. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 8:48:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc1-44.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6FE1564D for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00842; Tue, 18 May 1999 01:44:57 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:44:57 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... Message-ID: <19990518014456.A515@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 May 1999 at 10:25:22 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Fri, 14 May 1999, jack wrote: > > Today The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn > > > using FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop > > > right now, and I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should > > > only be using that where we *have* to (some of our applications > > > require Solaris)... > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html > > Need to split off ISPs from "Everyone Else" on this list...an ISP > running FreeBSD doesn't hold much weight in the "Corporate World" :( > And having to weed through them all is almost nightmarish :( This will be happening soon. We're going to be using postgres and php3 to handle the gallery and it will be split up. Think yellow pages. -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ - jim@advocacy.FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 8:49:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc1-44.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400221513B for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 08:49:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00870; Tue, 18 May 1999 01:48:59 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:48:59 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... Message-ID: <19990518014859.B515@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 May 1999 at 10:28:29 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Fri, 14 May 1999, jack wrote: > > Today The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn > > > using FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop > > > right now, and I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should > > > only be using that where we *have* to (some of our applications > > > require Solaris)... > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html > > *slap forehead* does the following entry *really* provide anyone > any weight as far as credibility is concerned? > > Microsnot Corp. -- We at Microsnot make a killing off of stealing idea's > from small independent software companies, and we love our jobs. But most [snip..] Along with the db backend, all entries we receive will be reviewed by human eyes before being added. That'll keep nonsense like this out of it. -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ - jim@advocacy.FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 9: 9:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.13.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49A814BEE; Mon, 17 May 1999 09:09:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19558; Mon, 17 May 1999 13:09:10 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:09:10 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Eivind Eklund Cc: jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: <19990517171259.A53217@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Mon, May 17, 1999 at 10:05:29AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > The Advocacy one is slightly better, but I question accuracy...when did > > HotMail switch from Solaris to FreeBSD? Last I heard, they tried to > > switch to NT and then moved back to Solaris... > > For the mail servers, yes. They use FreeBSD for their web servers. Ah, okay...is it just me, or shoudl this sort of detail be included on those pages? IMHO, I'd rather know that company X is using FreeBSD for a specific purpose, which would be more believable then selling FreeBSD as just being "used by company X", which could be no more then the guy who added the entry using it for his desktop... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 9: 9:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.13.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CA914BEE for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 09:09:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19562; Mon, 17 May 1999 13:09:40 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:09:40 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Jim Mock Cc: jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: <19990518014456.A515@blues.ghis.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 May 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > On Mon, 17 May 1999 at 10:25:22 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > On Fri, 14 May 1999, jack wrote: > > > Today The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > > > I'm looking for some sort of list of Companies and Corporatiosn > > > > using FreeBSD in production environments. We're a Slowaris shop > > > > right now, and I'm trying to convince the uppers that we should > > > > only be using that where we *have* to (some of our applications > > > > require Solaris)... > > > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html > > > > Need to split off ISPs from "Everyone Else" on this list...an ISP > > running FreeBSD doesn't hold much weight in the "Corporate World" :( > > And having to weed through them all is almost nightmarish :( > > This will be happening soon. We're going to be using postgres and > php3 to handle the gallery and it will be split up. Think yellow > pages. Sounds great, thanks :) Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 11:12:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C1614BD4 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 11:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06513; Mon, 17 May 1999 11:12:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 17 May 1999 10:05:29 -0300." Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:12:39 -0700 Message-ID: <6509.926964759@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The Advocacy one is slightly better, but I question accuracy...when did > HotMail switch from Solaris to FreeBSD? Last I heard, they tried to > switch to NT and then moved back to Solaris... The actual situation is that both Solaris and FreeBSD have been used since the beginning at hotmail; the Solaris machines do back-end mail delivery and storage, the FreeBSD machines do the front-end web serving. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 14:22:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FDEF14FCB for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 14:22:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24374; Mon, 17 May 1999 14:22:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd024306; Mon May 17 14:22:48 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26815; Mon, 17 May 1999 14:22:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905172122.OAA26815@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Nt source licenses... To: vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca (Tim Vanderhoek) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:22:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dlombardo@excite.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990516124441.A43261@mAd> from "Tim Vanderhoek" at May 16, 99 12:44:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [-current -=> -chat] > > [Re: stealing an NTFS implementation after getting an NT source > license] > > On Sun, May 16, 1999 at 01:49:09PM +0100, Dean Lombardo wrote: > > > > OK - perhaps I should rephrase it - they *can* sue, but they are not > > very likely to do so without good reason. Do you really think that > > Besides that, even if they did sue, while it would certainly have some > negative effects, we'd get a lot of useful publicity. That, and putting the theing in would be like dipping a vestal virgin in raw sewage. 8-|. NTFS is pretty trivial, even if you need to write to it... the only real roadblock is how VOP_ABORTOP is named as if it were a transaction abort, but coded to free cn_pnbuf's (dumb). The Helen Custer book and a ZIP driver are generally enough to allow you, with a working NT system, to see how the log files are laid out, such that you can write them safely. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 14:26:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE4F14C84 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29394; Mon, 17 May 1999 14:26:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd029304; Mon May 17 14:26:33 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27011; Mon, 17 May 1999 14:26:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905172126.OAA27011@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:26:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "The Hermit Hacker" at May 17, 99 10:28:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html > > *slap forehead* does the following entry *really* provide anyone any > weight as far as credibility is concerned? > > Microsnot Corp. -- We at Microsnot make a killing off of stealing idea's I've pointed this out before, twice. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 15: 6:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A12C154CE for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 15:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA11248 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 18:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:06:23 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Weird "Advocacy" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Last night we got hit with one of those "dictionary attack" mail spams where the spammer basically tries every username in a dictionary to get the spam through. The funny thing is the name of the machine: Received: from netppl.fi (monitor@get.freebsd.because.microsoftsucks.net [209.3.31.115]) And then this: bash$ telnet get.freebsd.because.microsoftsucks.net Trying 209.3.31.115... Connected to get.freebsd.because.microsoftsucks.net. Escape character is '^]'. Red Hat Linux release 5.0 (Hurricane) Kernel 2.0.32 on an i586 login: Weird? Malicious? Why? Charles --- Charles Sprickman spork@super-g.com --- "...there's no idea that's so good you can't ruin it with a few well-placed idiots." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 15:24:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dumbo.visionaire.net (visionaire.ping.de [195.37.123.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992D414FD4 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thomas@visionaire.ping.de) Received: from dante.visionaire.net [192.168.208.42] (mail) by dumbo.visionaire.net with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1 (Debian)) id 10jVo1-00031U-00; Tue, 18 May 1999 00:24:17 +0200 Received: from thomas by dante.visionaire.net with local (Exim 1.92 #1 (Debian)) id 10jVo2-0001k0-00; Tue, 18 May 1999 00:24:18 +0200 Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:24:18 +0200 From: Thomas Keusch To: The Hermit Hacker , US FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... Message-ID: <19990518002418.A2208@dante.visionaire.net> References: <19990517171259.A53217@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Mon, May 17, 1999 at 01:09:10PM -0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 17, 1999 at 01:09:10PM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > HotMail switch from Solaris to FreeBSD? Last I heard, they tried to > > > switch to NT and then moved back to Solaris... > > > > For the mail servers, yes. They use FreeBSD for their web servers. > > Ah, okay...is it just me, or shoudl this sort of detail be included on > those pages? IMHO, I'd rather know that company X is using FreeBSD for a > specific purpose, which would be more believable then selling FreeBSD as > just being "used by company X", which could be no more then the guy who > added the entry using it for his desktop... I think some page like the one of the "Mission Critical Linux" Survey would be a good idea..? Have a look at: http://www.linux.or.jp/~mkubo/mc-doc/ Have a look at the survey results. -- thomas. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 16:31:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD07315337 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 16:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19467; Mon, 17 May 1999 16:31:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd019313; Mon May 17 16:31:13 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28376; Mon, 17 May 1999 16:31:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905172331.QAA28376@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Weird "Advocacy" To: spork@super-g.com (spork) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:31:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "spork" at May 17, 99 06:06:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Last night we got hit with one of those "dictionary attack" mail spams > where the spammer basically tries every username in a dictionary to get > the spam through. The funny thing is the name of the machine: > > Received: from netppl.fi (monitor@get.freebsd.because.microsoftsucks.net > [209.3.31.115]) [ ... ] > Weird? Malicious? Why? You need to look a little deeper next time: % nslookup > set q=any > 115.31.3.209.in-addr.arpa. [ ... ] 115.31.3.209.in-addr.arpa name = get.freebsd.because.microsoftsucks.net 31.3.209.IN-ADDR.ARPA nameserver = dns1.vdi.net 31.3.209.IN-ADDR.ARPA nameserver = dns2.vdi.net dns1.vdi.net internet address = 209.3.31.32 dns2.vdi.net internet address = 209.3.31.31 > server DNS1.VDI.NET Default Server: DNS1.VDI.NET Address: 209.3.31.32 > ls microsoftsucks.net. [DNS1.VDI.NET] $ORIGIN microsoftsucks.net. @ 1H IN A 209.3.31.16 we.all.know.that 1H IN A 207.206.55.157 kill.bill.gates.cause 1H IN A 209.201.94.137 bill.gates.has.more.money.than.me.so 1H IN A 209.201.94.136 get.freebsd.because 1H IN A 209.3.31.115 get.linux.because 1H IN A 209.201.94.132 bill.gates.swallows 1H IN A 209.3.31.111 pure-linux 1H IN A 209.3.31.27 knows 1H IN A 209.201.94.135 windows98.is.proof 1H IN A 209.201.94.131 bill.gates.is.gay.and 1H IN A 142.207.10.6 linux.owns.and 1H IN A 142.207.10.6 bsd.rules.and 1H IN A 209.201.94.133 thinks.bill.gates.and 1H IN A 209.201.94.130 bitchx 1H IN A 209.2.135.202 mail 1H IN A 209.3.31.16 grep 1H IN A 209.201.94.133 www 1H IN A 209.3.31.16 everything.made.by 1H IN A 209.201.94.134 darkfires.rocks.but 1H IN A 209.3.31.4 incoming 1H IN A 209.3.31.16 freemail 1H IN A 209.3.31.16 > Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 18:48:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE4514CFD; Mon, 17 May 1999 18:48:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip1.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.1]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241E3370B4; Mon, 17 May 1999 21:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA15142; Mon, 17 May 1999 20:50:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:50:15 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSDI giving out old info? Message-ID: <19990517205015.C15030@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I read some interesting things at the URL below -- perhaps it's out of date. It says that there are no Front Page extensions, no email support, and no 'patch server' (does cvsup*.freebsd.org count?). http://www.BSDI.COM/products/internet/40-qna.mhtml#Q5 -- Chris Costello Sure it's user-friendly...if you know what you're doing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 21:26:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co [168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E33E14C0A for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 21:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem30.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.60]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA08500 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 23:28:53 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3740EBE6.980A8591@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:26:15 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Great document by Kirk about BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org check it out! http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 22:43:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944AE151CE; Mon, 17 May 1999 22:42:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id WAA07648; Mon, 17 May 1999 22:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id WAA28386; Mon, 17 May 1999 22:41:53 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA06539; Mon, 17 May 99 22:41:49 PDT Message-Id: <3740FD9C.8CDD830C@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:41:48 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? References: <19990517205015.C15030@holly.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Costello wrote: > > I read some interesting things at the URL below -- perhaps > it's out of date. It says that there are no Front Page > extensions, no email support, and no 'patch server' (does > cvsup*.freebsd.org count?). > > http://www.BSDI.COM/products/internet/40-qna.mhtml#Q5 OK, help me fix this. I'm counting anything available in packages as "Std." We could probably count ports too, given the amount of tinkering NOT required to get them to work, but let's stick with packages for now. How's this look vis-a-vis 3.2-RELEASE: FreeBSD World Wide Web Support HTTP server Std HTTP proxy Std HTTP accelerator ??? SSL2 ??? SSL3 ??? Java Std ActiveX MSP (bleh!) XML ??? Local Database mSQL, MySQL, Postgres Yes Remote Database mSQL, MySQL, Postgres Yes FrontPage server extensions (Use the BSDI version - doh!) 3rd E-Mail Support SMTP server Std POP3 server Std IMAP server Std Usenet News Support NNTP server Std FTP Support FTP server Std VPN Support IPsec ??? ISAKMP ??? PPTP ??? Development Tools HTML editor Std Perl Std Python Std C and C++ Compilers & Tools Std Fortran Compiler & Tools Std Java Compiler & Tools Std Source Code Available Yes Network Services DNS Std NTP Std Dialup Support PPP Std Multi-Link PPP Std SLIP Std RADIUS Authentication Std RAS MSP ??? Security Kerberos Std IP Packet Filters Std Management SMNP Tools (Too bad they can't spell SNMP, huh?) BIY Huh? Remote Administration Std Pager Interface Std Reliability Uptimes > 1 year Std Y2K Compliant Yes Advanced Features IPv6 It was developed on FreeBSD! Yes Technical Support Initial free phone support 0 Phone support with 4 hour response Opt E-Mail Support Free Update Support Free Patch Server Yes Pricing Base Product FREE! 16 User FREE! 60 day return privilege NOT NEEDED, ITS FREE! Key: Std = standard Opt = optional 3rd = Available from 3rd party MSP = Microsoft Proprietary BIY = Build it yourself U/D = Under Development N/A = Not available -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 22:43:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E00EB15124; Mon, 17 May 1999 22:42:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11492; Mon, 17 May 1999 23:42:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3740FDB3.1E0ACCC2@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:42:11 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? References: <19990517205015.C15030@holly.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Costello wrote: > > I read some interesting things at the URL below -- perhaps > it's out of date. It says that there are no Front Page > extensions, no email support, and no 'patch server' (does > cvsup*.freebsd.org count?). > > http://www.BSDI.COM/products/internet/40-qna.mhtml#Q5 OK, help me fix this. I'm counting anything available in packages as "Std." We could probably count ports too, given the amount of tinkering NOT required to get them to work, but let's stick with packages for now. How's this look vis-a-vis 3.2-RELEASE: FreeBSD World Wide Web Support HTTP server Std HTTP proxy Std HTTP accelerator ??? SSL2 ??? SSL3 ??? Java Std ActiveX MSP (bleh!) XML ??? Local Database mSQL, MySQL, Postgres Yes Remote Database mSQL, MySQL, Postgres Yes FrontPage server extensions (Use the BSDI version - doh!) 3rd E-Mail Support SMTP server Std POP3 server Std IMAP server Std Usenet News Support NNTP server Std FTP Support FTP server Std VPN Support IPsec ??? ISAKMP ??? PPTP ??? Development Tools HTML editor Std Perl Std Python Std C and C++ Compilers & Tools Std Fortran Compiler & Tools Std Java Compiler & Tools Std Source Code Available Yes Network Services DNS Std NTP Std Dialup Support PPP Std Multi-Link PPP Std SLIP Std RADIUS Authentication Std RAS MSP ??? Security Kerberos Std IP Packet Filters Std Management SMNP Tools (Too bad they can't spell SNMP, huh?) BIY Huh? Remote Administration Std Pager Interface Std Reliability Uptimes > 1 year Std Y2K Compliant Yes Advanced Features IPv6 It was developed on FreeBSD! Yes Technical Support Initial free phone support 0 Phone support with 4 hour response Opt E-Mail Support Free Update Support Free Patch Server Yes Pricing Base Product FREE! 16 User FREE! 60 day return privilege NOT NEEDED, ITS FREE! Key: Std = standard Opt = optional 3rd = Available from 3rd party MSP = Microsoft Proprietary BIY = Build it yourself U/D = Under Development N/A = Not available -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 23:23: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C8914D9A; Mon, 17 May 1999 23:23:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip1.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.1]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD64B3708B; Tue, 18 May 1999 02:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA15647; Tue, 18 May 1999 01:24:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:24:39 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? Message-ID: <19990518012439.A15570@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990517205015.C15030@holly.dyndns.org> <3740FD9C.8CDD830C@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: <3740FD9C.8CDD830C@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Mon, May 17, 1999 at 11:41:48PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 18, 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > OK, help me fix this. I'm counting anything available in packages as > "Std." We could probably count ports too, given the amount of tinkering > NOT required to get them to work, but let's stick with packages for now. > How's this look vis-a-vis 3.2-RELEASE: See below... > FreeBSD > World Wide Web Support > HTTP server Std > HTTP proxy Std > HTTP accelerator ??? What is an HTTP accelerator, anyway? > SSL2 ??? > SSL3 ??? These are availible under ports, and I don't think ports are 'build it yourself', since, technically, ports builds it all for you. > Java Std > ActiveX MSP (bleh!) > XML ??? The SGML tools availible seem to be able to deal with this. > Local Database mSQL, MySQL, Postgres Yes > Remote Database mSQL, MySQL, Postgres Yes > FrontPage server extensions (Use the BSDI version - doh!) 3rd > > E-Mail Support > SMTP server Std > POP3 server Std > IMAP server Std > > Usenet News Support > NNTP server Std > > FTP Support > FTP server Std > > VPN Support > IPsec ??? > ISAKMP ??? > PPTP ??? > > Development Tools > HTML editor Std > Perl Std > Python Std > C and C++ Compilers & Tools Std > Fortran Compiler & Tools Std > Java Compiler & Tools Std > Source Code Available Yes > > Network Services > DNS Std > NTP Std > > Dialup Support > PPP Std > Multi-Link PPP Std > SLIP Std > RADIUS Authentication Std > RAS MSP ??? > > Security > Kerberos Std > IP Packet Filters Std > > Management > SMNP Tools (Too bad they can't spell SNMP, huh?) BIY Huh? I consider ports not to be BIY... > Remote Administration Std > Pager Interface Std > > Reliability > Uptimes > 1 year Std > Y2K Compliant Yes > > Advanced Features > IPv6 It was developed on FreeBSD! Yes I wonder why they put N/A, then. > Technical Support > Initial free phone support 0 > Phone support with 4 hour response Opt > E-Mail Support Free > Update Support Free > Patch Server Yes > > Pricing > Base Product FREE! > 16 User FREE! > 60 day return privilege NOT NEEDED, ITS FREE! Overall, I'd say your new data is, other than what I mentioned about ports, ready to be given to BSDI. > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com -- Chris Costello You depend too much on computers for information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 17 23:29:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8104C14DE9; Mon, 17 May 1999 23:29:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA00861; Tue, 18 May 1999 02:29:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:29:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Chris Costello Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? In-Reply-To: <19990518012439.A15570@holly.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > World Wide Web Support > > HTTP server Std > > HTTP proxy Std > > HTTP accelerator ??? > > What is an HTTP accelerator, anyway? > /usr/ports/www/squid is a HTTP Accelerator as well as a HTTP proxy server. I have always imagined it as a localized mirror site, but I have never used it. -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 3: 9:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc1-15.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05DC214CFF; Tue, 18 May 1999 03:09:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA22119; Tue, 18 May 1999 20:08:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:08:51 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: User Group: Canberra, ACT, Australia Message-ID: <19990518200851.A22062@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [note: please trim the Cc's down to chat@FreeBSD.org only if replying] I apologize for the crosspost, but I know not everyone I'm trying to reach subscribes to both lists. Having just moved to Canberra, I spent some time looking around to see if any FreeBSD User Groups existed here, and I didn't find any (if one exists, please send me the info so I can add it to the User Groups section on the advocacy site, thanks), so I've decided to start one (if there's any interest). If you're in the Canberra area, and would like to help me get this off the ground, or even if you'd like to see one emerge here in Canberra, get in touch with me. Thanks, -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ - jim@advocacy.FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 6:18:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.13.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1529315561 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 06:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA31222; Tue, 18 May 1999 10:18:10 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:18:10 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: <6509.926964759@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The Advocacy one is slightly better, but I question accuracy...when did > > HotMail switch from Solaris to FreeBSD? Last I heard, they tried to > > switch to NT and then moved back to Solaris... > > The actual situation is that both Solaris and FreeBSD have been used > since the beginning at hotmail; the Solaris machines do back-end mail > delivery and storage, the FreeBSD machines do the front-end web > serving. Ah, cool...will the new db backend encourage this kind of detail in the entries? Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 7:35:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spawn.nectar.cc (gw.nectar.com [204.0.249.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7355614E53 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 07:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.cc) Received: from spawn.nectar.cc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spawn.nectar.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id E735C1F6D; Tue, 18 May 1999 09:35:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.cc/nectar-rsa.txt X-PGP-DSSfprint: AB2F 8D71 A4F4 467D 352E 8A41 5D79 22E4 71A2 8C73 X-PGP-DHfprint: 2D50 12E5 AB38 60BA AF4B 0778 7242 4460 1C32 F6B1 X-PGP-DH-DSSkey: http://www.nectar.cc/nectar-dh-dss.txt From: Jacques Vidrine To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <3740EBE6.980A8591@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <3740EBE6.980A8591@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Subject: Re: Great document by Kirk about BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:35:28 -0500 Message-Id: <19990518143528.E735C1F6D@spawn.nectar.cc> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 May 1999 at 23:26, "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > check it out! > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html The whole book is a good read -- I recommend purchasing it. You can preview the whole thing starting at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/toc.html. Thanks, O'Reilly! Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.cc / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 8:36:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75C514CC8; Tue, 18 May 1999 08:35:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26917; Tue, 18 May 1999 08:35:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd026854; Tue May 18 08:35:35 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA28631; Tue, 18 May 1999 08:35:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905181535.IAA28631@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? To: chris@calldei.com Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:35:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990518012439.A15570@holly.dyndns.org> from "Chris Costello" at May 18, 99 01:24:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > HTTP accelerator ??? > > What is an HTTP accelerator, anyway? A cache. > > ActiveX MSP (bleh!) ActiveX is pretty trivial to implement, if you know C++, and know to type: #define interface struct The COM and DCOM books describe it in sufficient detail that it can be implemented. The one caveat is that EGCS vtable support sucks. > > VPN Support > > IPsec ??? > > ISAKMP ??? These are supported via the WIDE/INRIA/LANL code, though the WIDE stuff appears more mature. FreeBSD is not, however, shipping it. > > PPTP ??? This use GRE, and is similarly trivial, although interoperability with the NT code is not, and the security sucks (open to man in the middle and replay attacks). FreeBSD is not shipping it. > > RAS MSP ??? RAS is "Remote access server". It means dial on demand PPP with network address translation, generally. > > Management > > SMNP Tools (Too bad they can't spell SNMP, huh?) BIY > > I consider ports not to be BIY... On the other hand, the port doesn't come with a MIB that lets you actually manage a FreeBSD box. FreeBSD boxes don't have sufficiently centralized configuration data, and what data there is is cached all over the place, instead of reacquired. Someone really ought to look into a socket implementation that binds to interfaces instead of to IP addresses (e.g. an interface-bound INADDR_ANY). Oh wait, I _am_ looking into that... ;^). > > Advanced Features > > IPv6 It was developed on FreeBSD! Yes > > I wonder why they put N/A, then. FreeBSD is not shipping it, and it is not a package. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 9:26: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9D31571C; Tue, 18 May 1999 09:26:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA19192; Tue, 18 May 1999 09:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:25:53 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Chris Costello Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? Message-ID: <19990518092553.A19168@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <19990517205015.C15030@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990517205015.C15030@holly.dyndns.org>; from Chris Costello on Mon, May 17, 1999 at 08:50:15PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 17, 1999 at 08:50:15PM -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > I read some interesting things at the URL below -- perhaps > it's out of date. It says that there are no Front Page > extensions, no email support, and no 'patch server' (does > cvsup*.freebsd.org count?). > > http://www.BSDI.COM/products/internet/40-qna.mhtml#Q5 I love the entry under Reliability, "Uptimes > 1 year". They list BSDI as having this as "Std" but FreeBSD is blank. Did someone forget to install the "Uptime > 1 year" package ? ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 9:32:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B3A3114E3F for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 09:32:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 85350 invoked by uid 1000); 18 May 1999 16:32:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:32:13 +0200 From: Andreas Braukmann To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: did my first linux-install since nearly 6 years Message-ID: <19990518183213.A84866@paert.tse-online.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, ... today I undertook a quite great adventure ;) I grabbed the nearest SUSE Linux 6.1 Box and installed it on one of our office machines. Why? ... I really want to play with ´vmware´ ... I would like to have a reference platform for commercial software available on Linux (sybase, oracle, etc.) for testing and demonstration purposes *** ´our´ "sysinstall" (even with its rough edges) just ´rocks´ *** the ports collections ´rocks´ even an order of magnitude more The SUSE installation tool (YaST) surely is a fine piece of work; but I have to admit, that I got confused at various points despite of having read the well-written documentation. (BTW, I´ve never read the FreeBSD installation documentation, ... ) My first impression: ´YaST´ has the aim to lead the user to a more or less well configured system usable as a relatively isolated workstation, stuffed with all the _application_ software ´joe user´ needs. I really liked the possibility to save the "selected for installation" software packages as a named configuration file to a floppy disk. (Hint, Hint ... ) Although the whole installation process went smooth, I´m certainly not sure, if the system got configured _well_ and relativly _secure_. I´m very, very sure, that this Linux system stays a pure vmware-capable frontend (running a local X-Server / window-manager) to our FreeBSD boxes. -Andreas -- : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 9:33: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C44314ECC; Tue, 18 May 1999 09:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id JAA12963; Tue, 18 May 1999 09:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA01759; Tue, 18 May 1999 09:31:22 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn1.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA04210; Tue, 18 May 99 09:31:15 PDT Message-Id: <374195D3.4366EC32@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:31:15 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Coleman Cc: Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks to all who responded. I still have one question: when they say "RAS" as a Microsoft proprietary protocol, are they talking about the MS-CHAP extensions to PPP? Doesn't the latest version of userland PPP support this? Should we mark this as MSP/Std? And what about the VPN stuff? Don't we do some of this, with ports? Here's what I have now: World Wide Web Support FreeBSD HTTP server Std HTTP proxy Std HTTP accelerator Std SSL2 Opt/3rd SSL3 Opt/3rd Java Std ActiveX MSP XML Std Local Database mSQL, MySQL, Postgres Std Remote Database mSQL, MySQL, Postgres Std FrontPage server extensions (Use the BSDI version - doh!) 3rd E-Mail Support SMTP server Std POP3 server Std IMAP server Std Usenet News Support NNTP server Std FTP Support FTP server Std VPN Support IPsec ??? ISAKMP ??? PPTP ??? Development Tools HTML editor Std Perl Std Python Std C and C++ Compilers & Tools Std Fortran Compiler & Tools Std Java Compiler & Tools Std Source Code Available Std Network Services DNS Std NTP Std Dialup Support PPP Std Multi-Link PPP Std SLIP Std RADIUS Authentication Std RAS MSP ??? Security Kerberos Std IP Packet Filters Std Management SMNP Tools (Too bad they can't spell SNMP, huh?) Std Remote Administration Std Pager Interface Std Reliability Uptimes > 1 year Std Y2K Compliant Yes Advanced Features IPv6 KAME - developed on FreeBSD! 3rd Technical Support Initial free phone support 0 Phone support with 4 hour response (FreeBSD Mall) Opt E-Mail Support FREE Update Support FREE Patch Server (daily via CVSup) Yes Pricing Base Product FREE! 16 User FREE! CD-ROM Media charge (CD-ROM/Subscription/CheapBytes) $40 / $25 / $5 60 day return privilege Yes Key: Yes = Oui, Ja, Yup, Si, etc. Std = standard (For FreeBSD, installed with system or in package) Opt = optional (For FreeBSD, available via ports systems) 3rd = Available from 3rd party MSP = Microsoft Proprietary BIY = Build it yourself U/D = Under Development N/A = Not available FREE = You don't have to pay for it, as in FREE BEER -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 11:51: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0289814D9A for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 11:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA30357; Tue, 18 May 1999 13:51:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:51:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Price To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: how secure is NT? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just got the strangest request. Today while at a customer's facility I was given the IP address of an NT box and was asked to try to break into it. All he told me about the box was that it was using NT 4.0 and was running a VPN. Does anyone have any ideas or pointers to known NT exploits? I know this is a very bizarre request and not directly related to FreeBSD, so please keep all replies to me and only on -chat if you _must_ reply to the list. Thanks. -steve PS: Please don't ask me for the IP address. My customer expressly forbade me to give it to anyone. They don't want to end up having 1000s of people trying to break in. Just me. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 12: 9:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCC814E7C for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 12:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.56]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA1C29; Tue, 18 May 1999 21:09:41 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00499; Tue, 18 May 1999 21:10:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:10:09 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Steve Price Subject: RE: how secure is NT? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-May-99 Steve Price wrote: > I just got the strangest request. Today while at a customer's > facility I was given the IP address of an NT box and was asked > to try to break into it. All he told me about the box was that > it was using NT 4.0 and was running a VPN. Does anyone have any > ideas or pointers to known NT exploits? No Service Packs? Use standard DoS tools (see neworder.box.sk for a search engine). Service Pack 3 still has some DoS exploits which can only be solved by later SP's or hotfixes, IIRC the later boink DoS's and friends. If it runs IIS, then yer in business because it's as leak as a basket, see BugTraq archives for information. Also see www.rootshell.com for some other exploits for NT. Also use default nmap for the port scans in order to get some information about the open ports. Have fun =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 12:25:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E211514EDA; Tue, 18 May 1999 12:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA16770; Tue, 18 May 1999 12:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA10160; Tue, 18 May 1999 12:24:57 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn1.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA13185; Tue, 18 May 99 12:24:54 PDT Message-Id: <3741BE86.54C4512B@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:24:54 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chris@calldei.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? References: <199905181535.IAA28631@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > HTTP accelerator ??? > > > > What is an HTTP accelerator, anyway? > > A cache. Pretty much. A smart cache, maybe. In FreeBSD, you pronounce it "squid." > > > ActiveX MSP (bleh!) > > ActiveX is pretty trivial to implement, if you know C++, and know to > type: > > #define interface struct > > The COM and DCOM books describe it in sufficient detail that it can > be implemented. The one caveat is that EGCS vtable support sucks. Another caveat is that ActiveX is a giant can of bugs waiting to be released. Do we really WANT to advertise support for ActiveX? I thought not. > > > VPN Support > > > IPsec ??? > > > ISAKMP ??? > > These are supported via the WIDE/INRIA/LANL code, though the WIDE stuff > appears more mature. FreeBSD is not, however, shipping it. 3rd party? > > > PPTP ??? > > This use GRE, and is similarly trivial, although interoperability with > the NT code is not, and the security sucks (open to man in the middle > and replay attacks). FreeBSD is not shipping it. 3rd party, or "why would you want to do that?" > > > RAS MSP ??? > > RAS is "Remote access server". It means dial on demand PPP with > network address translation, generally. But BSDI has that, too, so they must applying some other definition to it. Screw it, I'm changing it to "Std." Userland PPP wins again! ;^) > > > Management > > > SMNP Tools (Too bad they can't spell SNMP, huh?) BIY > > > > I consider ports not to be BIY... > > On the other hand, the port doesn't come with a MIB that lets you > actually manage a FreeBSD box. FreeBSD boxes don't have sufficiently > centralized configuration data, and what data there is is cached all > over the place, instead of reacquired. Someone really ought to look > into a socket implementation that binds to interfaces instead of to > IP addresses (e.g. an interface-bound INADDR_ANY). Oh wait, I _am_ > looking into that... ;^). You seem to assume other vendors have *working* SNMP implementations also. I can testify from first-hand experience that this is only sort of true. Working == works great if you use OUR management application to manage OUR switches/servers/hosts. > > > Advanced Features > > > IPv6 It was developed on FreeBSD! Yes > > > > I wonder why they put N/A, then. > > FreeBSD is not shipping it, and it is not a package. 3rd party then, right? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 12:36:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (unknown [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F2114EDA; Tue, 18 May 1999 12:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA193630708; Tue, 18 May 1999 11:18:28 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:18:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Wes Peters Cc: Chris Coleman , Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? In-Reply-To: <374195D3.4366EC32@softweyr.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 May 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > And what about the VPN stuff? Don't we do some of this, with ports? ports/security/skip, though I heard somewhere there might be a ppp+ssh tutorial for making a VPN. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 13:20:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E700115753; Tue, 18 May 1999 13:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id NAA14311; Tue, 18 May 1999 13:19:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:19:58 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Wes Peters Cc: Terry Lambert , chris@calldei.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? Message-ID: <19990518131958.O80987@001101.zer0.org> References: <199905181535.IAA28631@usr08.primenet.com> <3741BE86.54C4512B@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <3741BE86.54C4512B@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Tue, May 18, 1999 at 01:24:54PM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 01:24:54PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > What is an HTTP accelerator, anyway? > > > > A cache. > > Pretty much. A smart cache, maybe. In FreeBSD, you pronounce it "squid." Or you can pronounce it "Inktomi Traffic Server", since they've recently released a FreeBSD native port. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Computing is a terminal addiction. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 13:23:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C1014D11 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 13:23:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA40873; Tue, 18 May 1999 13:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:23:22 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: philip trix Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: archicad Message-ID: <19990518132321.A40753@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <19990518201047.21405.rocketmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990518201047.21405.rocketmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>; from philip trix on Tue, May 18, 1999 at 01:10:47PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 01:10:47PM -0700, philip trix wrote: > where is the crack for "ArchiCAD6 (windows)" You should not provide crack to your software. It will quickly become hooked and you won't be able to get it to do anything without giving it more crack. On the other hand, if you're stuck using Windows, you should consider smoking the crack yourself to ease the pain. -- Matthew Hunt * My uncle says smoking crack http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * is kinda coo'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 14:58:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C32515079 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 14:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02765; Tue, 18 May 1999 14:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3741E244.B2CBC432@seattleu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:57:24 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Hunt Cc: philip trix , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: archicad References: <19990518201047.21405.rocketmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com> <19990518132321.A40753@wopr.caltech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Hunt wrote: > > On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 01:10:47PM -0700, philip trix wrote: > > > where is the crack for "ArchiCAD6 (windows)" > > You should not provide crack to your software. It will quickly > become hooked and you won't be able to get it to do anything without > giving it more crack. > > On the other hand, if you're stuck using Windows, you should consider > smoking the crack yourself to ease the pain. > Up here in Washington, especially Pierce County, methamphetamines are easy to find. The Pacific Northwest in general is also a good place to grow Marijuana. Crack for programs, see also: http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/FAQ232.html -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 15: 2:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from unix1.digital-web.net (unix1.digital-web.net [216.65.27.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1C114D3A; Tue, 18 May 1999 15:02:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Received: from localhost (jmscott@localhost) by unix1.digital-web.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08868; Tue, 18 May 1999 17:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:56:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: jmscott@unix1.digital-web.net Reply-To: Joseph Scott To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Wes Peters , Chris Coleman , Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 May 1999, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Tue, 18 May 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > And what about the VPN stuff? Don't we do some of this, with ports? > > ports/security/skip, though I heard somewhere there might be a ppp+ssh > tutorial for making a VPN. O'Rielly's VPN book has a section on using Linux+ssh to create a VPN. I took a quick look at it, I don't think there would be a problem doing FreeBSD+ssh to do the same thing (probably even use most of their steps :-) It's the 2 edition of the book, see : http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/vpn2/ > > - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - > - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - Joseph Scott joseph@randomnetworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 15: 7:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB3414C93 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 15:07:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08081; Tue, 18 May 1999 16:07:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990518160037.040a0450@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:07:31 -0600 To: Steve Price , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: how secure is NT? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If he's done the default install of IIS, you can break in via the sample asp's. (They're analogous to the old "phf" scripts in early versions of Apache, but Microsoft's programmers are apparently so wet behind the ears that they don't even have a good knowledge of their competitors' history.) These asp's will generally let you view any file on the server. See http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2255919,00.html The nice thing about this particular exploit is that it is trivial to execute from any client. It makes for a compelling "white hat" hacking demonstration but doesn't risk damaging anything. --Brett At 01:51 PM 5/18/99 -0500, Steve Price wrote: >I just got the strangest request. Today while at a customer's >facility I was given the IP address of an NT box and was asked >to try to break into it. All he told me about the box was that >it was using NT 4.0 and was running a VPN. Does anyone have any >ideas or pointers to known NT exploits? > >I know this is a very bizarre request and not directly related >to FreeBSD, so please keep all replies to me and only on -chat >if you _must_ reply to the list. Thanks. > >-steve > >PS: Please don't ask me for the IP address. My customer expressly >forbade me to give it to anyone. They don't want to end up >having 1000s of people trying to break in. Just me. :) > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 20: 6:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EEE4150C9 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 20:06:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id MAA09124; Wed, 19 May 1999 12:36:36 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA22003; Wed, 19 May 1999 12:37:27 +0930 Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:37:26 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: how secure is NT? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 May 1999, Steve Price wrote: > I just got the strangest request. Today while at a customer's > facility I was given the IP address of an NT box and was asked > to try to break into it. All he told me about the box was that > it was using NT 4.0 and was running a VPN. Does anyone have any > ideas or pointers to known NT exploits? Reading the NT service pack changelogs should give you a good idea of which DoS/exploit bugs were fixed in each. In particular, there was a FTP buffer overflow fixed in the most recent SP5 which potentially allows remote access (there's probably a shell script around which takes care of this). You mentioned VPN - if it's Microsoft's PPTP, then you're in luck - see http://www.counterpane.com/pptp.html. Microsoft's implementation of PPTP is so badly broken that anyone considering using it in a real network should be taken into a back room and quietly pummeled until they change their mind. Kris ----- "That suit's sharper than a page of Oscar Wilde witticisms that's been rolled up into a point, sprinkled with lemon juice and jabbed into someone's eye" "Wow, that's sharp!" - Ace Rimmer and the Cat, _Red Dwarf_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 20:55: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF5B14C0B for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 20:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id NAA09428; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:24:59 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA22983; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:25:50 +0930 Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:25:50 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Joseph Scott Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 May 1999, Joseph Scott wrote: > > On Tue, 18 May 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > And what about the VPN stuff? Don't we do some of this, with ports? > > > > ports/security/skip, though I heard somewhere there might be a ppp+ssh > > tutorial for making a VPN. > > O'Rielly's VPN book has a section on using Linux+ssh to create a > VPN. I took a quick look at it, I don't think there would be a problem > doing FreeBSD+ssh to do the same thing (probably even use most of their > steps :-) > > It's the 2 edition of the book, see : > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/vpn2/ It's pretty trivial, really. Just run ppp over ssh either by using a forwarded TCP port, or by using ssh as a stream data transport. The only thing I haven't bothered to figure out is how to make user-mode PPP do the latter (i.e., for interoperation with kernel-mode pppd as found on other platforms), but I'm sure it can be done fairly easily. Kris ----- "That suit's sharper than a page of Oscar Wilde witticisms that's been rolled up into a point, sprinkled with lemon juice and jabbed into someone's eye" "Wow, that's sharp!" - Ace Rimmer and the Cat, _Red Dwarf_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 20:57:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F68F14C0B; Tue, 18 May 1999 20:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id NAA09533; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:27:29 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA09414; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:28:19 +0930 Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:28:19 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: Chris Costello , chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? In-Reply-To: <19990518092553.A19168@ontario.mooseriver.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 May 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > I love the entry under Reliability, "Uptimes > 1 year". They list BSDI as > having this as "Std" but FreeBSD is blank. Did someone forget to install > the "Uptime > 1 year" package ? ;-) I tried to install the Microsoft Uptime package on my NT server, but it crashed. Kris > Josef ----- "That suit's sharper than a page of Oscar Wilde witticisms that's been rolled up into a point, sprinkled with lemon juice and jabbed into someone's eye" "Wow, that's sharp!" - Ace Rimmer and the Cat, _Red Dwarf_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 21: 7:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8301D14C0B for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 21:07:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13575; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:34:10 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:34:09 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Joseph Scott Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19-May-99 Kris Kennaway wrote: > The only thing I haven't bothered to figure out is how to make user-mode PPP > do the latter (i.e., for interoperation with kernel-mode pppd as found on > other platforms), but I'm sure it can be done fairly easily. I think ppp -direct is what you want. That talks on stdin/stdout, so you can run it and then attach it to a socket or something. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 21:23:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823CC14E07 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 21:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05549; Tue, 18 May 1999 21:30:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:30:06 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Or ipsec... does FreeBSD have an implementation? I'm sure it does... that's even easier to use than SSH. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Wed, 19 May 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, 18 May 1999, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > > On Tue, 18 May 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > > > And what about the VPN stuff? Don't we do some of this, with ports? > > > > > > ports/security/skip, though I heard somewhere there might be a ppp+ssh > > > tutorial for making a VPN. > > > > O'Rielly's VPN book has a section on using Linux+ssh to create a > > VPN. I took a quick look at it, I don't think there would be a problem > > doing FreeBSD+ssh to do the same thing (probably even use most of their > > steps :-) > > > > It's the 2 edition of the book, see : > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/vpn2/ > > It's pretty trivial, really. Just run ppp over ssh either by using a forwarded > TCP port, or by using ssh as a stream data transport. > > The only thing I haven't bothered to figure out is how to make user-mode PPP > do the latter (i.e., for interoperation with kernel-mode pppd as found on > other platforms), but I'm sure it can be done fairly easily. > > Kris > > ----- > "That suit's sharper than a page of Oscar Wilde witticisms that's been > rolled up into a point, sprinkled with lemon juice and jabbed into > someone's eye" > "Wow, that's sharp!" - Ace Rimmer and the Cat, _Red Dwarf_ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 21:25:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBF514E07 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 21:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id NAA09703; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:55:46 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA14734; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:56:36 +0930 Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:56:36 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Joseph Scott Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 May 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On 19-May-99 Kris Kennaway wrote: > > The only thing I haven't bothered to figure out is how to make user-mode PPP > > do the latter (i.e., for interoperation with kernel-mode pppd as found on > > other platforms), but I'm sure it can be done fairly easily. > > I think ppp -direct is what you want. That talks on stdin/stdout, so you can > run it and then attach it to a socket or something. That sounds right. Thanks. Kris ----- "That suit's sharper than a page of Oscar Wilde witticisms that's been rolled up into a point, sprinkled with lemon juice and jabbed into someone's eye" "Wow, that's sharp!" - Ace Rimmer and the Cat, _Red Dwarf_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 18 23:10:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE3315452 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 23:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id IAA11960 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 19 May 1999 08:09:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id F3D728837; Wed, 19 May 1999 07:59:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:59:25 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? Message-ID: <19990519075925.A28726@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <374195D3.4366EC32@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <374195D3.4366EC32@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Tue, May 18, 1999 at 10:31:15AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5322 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Wes Peters: > VPN Support > IPsec ??? > ISAKMP ??? > PPTP ??? Either the previously mentionned Skip port or use of the KAME IPsec package. There is also a simplier package written by one of our committers, Pierre Beyssac. It runs only in tunnel mode (as opposed to transport) and doesn't negociate keys but works well. > RAS MSP ??? Yes, MSP. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #71: Sun May 9 20:16:32 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 1:24:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F14B614E55 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 01:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA20386; Wed, 19 May 1999 01:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37427507.A5B1E5D2@seattleu.edu> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:23:35 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: how secure is NT? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price wrote: > > I just got the strangest request. Today while at a customer's > facility I was given the IP address of an NT box and was asked > to try to break into it. All he told me about the box was that > it was using NT 4.0 and was running a VPN. Does anyone have any > ideas or pointers to known NT exploits? > > I know this is a very bizarre request and not directly related > to FreeBSD, so please keep all replies to me and only on -chat > if you _must_ reply to the list. Thanks. I wonder if NT's ftp server is vulnerable to a "bounce" attack. nmap takes note of this: http://www.insecure.org/ The site's format has changed, so I can't find the specific info, but may other exploits are detailed. -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 2:16: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F60714EA6 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 02:16:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@netcom.com) Received: (from hasty@localhost) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id CAA23435 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 May 1999 02:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 02:16:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Amancio Hasty Jr Message-Id: <199905190916.CAA23435@netcom12.netcom.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: check it out 8) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://rax.arc.nasa.gov/email.html Enjoy, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 2:28:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABEA14EA6 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 02:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21513; Wed, 19 May 1999 02:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Amancio Hasty Jr Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: check it out 8) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 May 1999 02:16:01 PDT." <199905190916.CAA23435@netcom12.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 02:28:39 -0700 Message-ID: <21509.927106119@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://rax.arc.nasa.gov/email.html This is quite cool, thanks Amancio! The design of the PS, EXEC and MIR software makes for some interesting reading. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 7:22:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6656314CCA for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 07:22:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA09586 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:22:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA66971 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:22:52 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:22:52 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Message-ID: <19990519162252.B66788@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yay! ----- Forwarded message from "Kevin P. Lawton" ----- Message-Id: <3740C3C3.91FDCEAA@world.std.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:34:59 +0000 From: "Kevin P. Lawton" Organization: Bochs Software Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: openbios@wesley.informatik.uni-freiburg.de Subject: [OpenBIOS] OpenBIOS status Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-openbios@elvis.informatik.uni-freiburg.de Precedence: bulk Reply-To: openbios@elvis.informatik.uni-freiburg.de Hey OpenBIOS team, Can you folks me a quick snapshot of how things are working out with OpenBIOS? You probably have at least heard of my project "bochs". A long time ago someone from the OpenBIOS project contacted me, and wanted to know if they could use my BIOS as a starting point or reference for OpenBIOS. Anyhow, I've started another project, more or less an open source clone of the commercial program "VMWare". You can check it out at: news://news.redhat.com/redhat.projects.freemware http://www.freemware.org We're going to be needing an open source BIOS for that project. I have no problem with using the BIOS from bochs as a starting point, but I thought I'd contact you folks and see if it makes sense to sync up with your efforts. Freemware has potential to be a *really* big Linux project, and thus receive a ton of support. So this may very well help out your project. Thanks, -Kevin Lawton http://www.bochs.com - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@freiburg.linux.de with "unsubscribe openbios" in the body of the message ----- End forwarded message ----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 8:36:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6EE014C09; Wed, 19 May 1999 08:36:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15272; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:36:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990519093547.04100900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:36:19 -0600 To: Eivind Eklund , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <19990519162252.B66788@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yet another project whose code is unthinkingly GPLed. --Brett Glass At 04:22 PM 5/19/99 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >Yay! > >----- Forwarded message from "Kevin P. Lawton" ----- > >Message-Id: <3740C3C3.91FDCEAA@world.std.com> >Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:34:59 +0000 >From: "Kevin P. Lawton" >Organization: Bochs Software Company >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) >X-Accept-Language: en >Mime-Version: 1.0 >To: openbios@wesley.informatik.uni-freiburg.de >Subject: [OpenBIOS] OpenBIOS status >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-openbios@elvis.informatik.uni-freiburg.de >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: openbios@elvis.informatik.uni-freiburg.de > >Hey OpenBIOS team, > >Can you folks me a quick snapshot of how things >are working out with OpenBIOS? > >You probably have at least heard of my project "bochs". >A long time ago someone from the OpenBIOS project contacted >me, and wanted to know if they could use my BIOS >as a starting point or reference for OpenBIOS. > >Anyhow, I've started another project, more or less an >open source clone of the commercial program "VMWare". >You can check it out at: > > news://news.redhat.com/redhat.projects.freemware > http://www.freemware.org > >We're going to be needing an open source BIOS for >that project. I have no problem with using the BIOS >from bochs as a starting point, but I thought I'd >contact you folks and see if it makes sense to sync >up with your efforts. > >Freemware has potential to be a *really* big Linux >project, and thus receive a ton of support. So this >may very well help out your project. > >Thanks, >-Kevin Lawton >http://www.bochs.com >- >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@freiburg.linux.de >with "unsubscribe openbios" in the body of the message > >----- End forwarded message ----- > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 8:47:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (CJC26.RESNET.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.234.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125F114E70 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 08:47:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA06651 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 11:48:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:48:14 +0000 (GMT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519093547.04100900@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Yet another project whose code is unthinkingly GPLed. Man, you're such a downer. Lighten up! Cliff Crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- i l i k e o a t m e a l )O( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 9:16:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B6F14EB3 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from marple.umd.edu (marple.umd.edu [128.8.10.50]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA18926; Wed, 19 May 1999 12:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by marple.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA00664; Wed, 19 May 1999 12:16:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: marple.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:16:05 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@marple.umd.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519093547.04100900@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Yet another project whose code is unthinkingly GPLed. And that is why you should at least email those people involved and show them why this (more than most any other software project) should be using a Berkeley license. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 9:38:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8E314DA5 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15867; Wed, 19 May 1999 10:38:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990519103533.00b3d380@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:37:57 -0600 To: James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.37.19990519093547.04100900@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:16 PM 5/19/99 -0400, James Howard wrote: >And that is why you should at least email those people involved and show >them why this (more than most any other software project) should be using >a Berkeley license. I doubt that this would do much good at this point. The page makes very frequent mention of the fact that the project is being sponsored and supported by Red Hat. This is the sad and scary thing about the GPL. To paraphrase the old commercial for insect killer, it checks in but it doesn't check out. And where it checks in, it destroys livelihoods and alternatives. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 9:51: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DED155C3 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:51:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id SAA26779; Wed, 19 May 1999 18:51:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08153; Wed, 19 May 1999 18:51:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:51:00 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519093547.04100900@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How come this is always your initial reaction, Brett? Rather than pointing out that an effort is good, you point out that it's licence is bad. --- Marius Bendiksen, ScanCall AS On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Yet another project whose code is unthinkingly GPLed. > > --Brett Glass > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 10:31:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8AC152E5 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16540; Wed, 19 May 1999 11:31:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990519112517.00b3d620@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:31:24 -0600 To: Marius Bendiksen From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.37.19990519093547.04100900@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The GPL transforms a good effort into a bad one. It incorporates the effort into Stallman's anti-business, anti-consumer, monopolistic agenda. --Brett Glass At 06:51 PM 5/19/99 +0200, Marius Bendiksen wrote: >How come this is always your initial reaction, Brett? Rather than pointing >out that an effort is good, you point out that it's licence is bad. > >--- >Marius Bendiksen, ScanCall AS > >On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > Yet another project whose code is unthinkingly GPLed. > > > > --Brett Glass > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 10:32:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAAED152E5 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 10:32:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04676; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:31:16 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Brett Glass Cc: James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519103533.00b3d380@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:16 PM 5/19/99 -0400, James Howard wrote: > > >And that is why you should at least email those people involved and show > >them why this (more than most any other software project) should be using > >a Berkeley license. > > I doubt that this would do much good at this point. The page makes very > frequent mention of the fact that the project is being sponsored and > supported by Red Hat. I hope this won't stop you from emailing them. You must have a form letter by now, right? Share it, and we can all voice our opinions on this issue. It's pretty easy, and I'm sure most people in -chat wouldn't mind sending a polite letter explaining why a BSD license would serve them better. Charles > This is the sad and scary thing about the GPL. To paraphrase the old > commercial for insect killer, it checks in but it doesn't check out. > And where it checks in, it destroys livelihoods and alternatives. > > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 10:47:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C29155D4 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 10:47:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16642; Wed, 19 May 1999 11:46:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:44:51 -0600 To: spork From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.37.19990519103533.00b3d380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:31 PM 5/19/99 -0400, spork wrote: >> I doubt that this would do much good at this point. The page makes very > > frequent mention of the fact that the project is being sponsored and > > supported by Red Hat. > >I hope this won't stop you from emailing them. You must have a form >letter by now, right? Nope. Could you (and others) suggest some text which might be good to include in such a letter? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 12:23: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2547154E9 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 12:23:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19722; Wed, 19 May 1999 12:29:27 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:29:27 -0700 (PDT) From: To: spork Cc: Brett Glass , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lord knows RedHat is second only to Linux in its capacity for malevolence and evil. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Wed, 19 May 1999, spork wrote: > On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 12:16 PM 5/19/99 -0400, James Howard wrote: > > > > >And that is why you should at least email those people involved and show > > >them why this (more than most any other software project) should be using > > >a Berkeley license. > > > > I doubt that this would do much good at this point. The page makes very > > frequent mention of the fact that the project is being sponsored and > > supported by Red Hat. > > I hope this won't stop you from emailing them. You must have a form > letter by now, right? Share it, and we can all voice our opinions on this > issue. It's pretty easy, and I'm sure most people in -chat wouldn't mind > sending a polite letter explaining why a BSD license would serve them > better. > > Charles > > > This is the sad and scary thing about the GPL. To paraphrase the old > > commercial for insect killer, it checks in but it doesn't check out. > > And where it checks in, it destroys livelihoods and alternatives. > > > > --Brett Glass > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 12:37:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8AD714E28 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 12:37:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17593; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:37:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:37:18 -0600 To: unknown@riverstyx.net, spork From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Red Hat simply values short term gain to such an extent that it ignores the negative long term consequences of the GPL. (To put it succinctly: Never assume malice when ignorance will do. It's the GPL that was motivated by malice, not Red Hat.) Right now, Red Hat's success is fueled largely by Linux fanaticism. But its misguided support of the GPL will hurt all of us. --Brett At 12:29 PM 5/19/99 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: >Lord knows RedHat is second only to Linux in its capacity for malevolence >and evil. > >--- >tani hosokawa >river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 12:49: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B8D1560F for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 12:49:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20280; Wed, 19 May 1999 12:55:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:55:36 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Brett Glass Cc: spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't see why. Linux and FreeBSD are both nice platforms to base commercial software on. That's my entire business, and I haven't had any problems... --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Red Hat simply values short term gain to such an extent that it ignores the > negative long term consequences of the GPL. (To put it succinctly: Never > assume malice when ignorance will do. It's the GPL that was motivated by > malice, not Red Hat.) > > Right now, Red Hat's success is fueled largely by Linux fanaticism. But > its misguided support of the GPL will hurt all of us. > > --Brett > > At 12:29 PM 5/19/99 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > >Lord knows RedHat is second only to Linux in its capacity for malevolence > >and evil. > > > >--- > >tani hosokawa > >river styx internet > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 13: 3:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE89614DC4 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:03:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 19 May 1999 13:03:11 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:03:11 -0700 Message-ID: <001301bea232$9f0d0e10$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org RedHat has pegged its commercial success to Linux in the same way that Microsoft has pegged its commercial success to NT. Each company will ride its horse for as long as it can make money doing so. Then it will either change horses (as Apple did), or leave the race (as IBM did). This isn't malice or ignorance. It's simply each company offering the products and business model that it thinks people want. DS > Red Hat simply values short term gain to such an extent that it > ignores the > negative long term consequences of the GPL. (To put it succinctly: Never > assume malice when ignorance will do. It's the GPL that was motivated by > malice, not Red Hat.) > > Right now, Red Hat's success is fueled largely by Linux fanaticism. But > its misguided support of the GPL will hurt all of us. > > --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 14:43:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FFC14CC3 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 14:43:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r37.bfm.org [208.18.213.133]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA20173; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990519164120.00988a50@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:41:20 -0500 To: Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:37 19-05-1999 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >Right now, Red Hat's success is fueled largely by Linux fanaticism. But >its misguided support of the GPL will hurt all of us. In what ways? I can see how it will hurt Linux and Red Hat itself in the long run, but how will it hurt all of us? (I am not arguing, I am asking.) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 15:16:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD6915427 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 15:16:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15247; Thu, 20 May 1999 00:16:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA69221; Thu, 20 May 1999 00:16:13 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:16:13 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass Cc: spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Message-ID: <19990520001613.B69023@bitbox.follo.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990519103533.00b3d380@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, May 19, 1999 at 11:44:51AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 11:44:51AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:31 PM 5/19/99 -0400, spork wrote: > > >> I doubt that this would do much good at this point. The page makes very > > > frequent mention of the fact that the project is being sponsored and > > > supported by Red Hat. > > > >I hope this won't stop you from emailing them. You must have a form > >letter by now, right? > > Nope. Could you (and others) suggest some text which might be good > to include in such a letter? I notice you've put your new software package (XXX) under the GPL. I'm sending you this letter in the hopes of getting you the re-thing that decision, as I've noticed a lot of people GPLing software without thinking the consequences carefully through. My personal goal is to make sure the world gets the maximum amount of useful free software; the GPL is in conflict with that. As always, you should choose your license in order to support your goals. The goal the GPL has been written to support is to stop the creation of properitary software[1]; if you goals that are higher prioritized than this, you should probably choose a different license from the GPL. . If you feel you need to protect the code from "exploitation", consider using the NPL (with the initial developer clause) instead of the GPL. This gives you a way to later in time find that conditions have changed, and that benefit may be had from changing the licensing. Remember: Releasing truly free code is a way to help kill the juggernauts (like Microsoft); they can always aquire code by cross-licensing or paying for it, while the code you give out allow the same benefit to the creative startups that will kill them. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 15:26: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33CBD14EBF; Wed, 19 May 1999 15:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r34.bfm.org [208.18.213.130]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id SAA12775; Wed, 19 May 1999 18:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990519172425.009633f0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:24:25 -0500 To: Eivind Eklund From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990520001613.B69023@bitbox.follo.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519103533.00b3d380@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 00:16 20-05-1999 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >If you feel you need to protect the code from "exploitation", consider >using the NPL (with the initial developer clause) instead of the GPL. What is NPL? Where is it available? Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 15:32:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0555E15095 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 15:32:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15417; Thu, 20 May 1999 00:32:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA69379; Thu, 20 May 1999 00:32:31 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:32:31 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Message-ID: <19990520003231.C69023@bitbox.follo.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519103533.00b3d380@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> <19990520001613.B69023@bitbox.follo.net> <3.0.6.32.19990519172425.009633f0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990519172425.009633f0@mail.bfm.org>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Wed, May 19, 1999 at 05:24:25PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 05:24:25PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 00:16 20-05-1999 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > >If you feel you need to protect the code from "exploitation", consider > >using the NPL (with the initial developer clause) instead of the GPL. > > What is NPL? Where is it available? The Netscape Pulic License. It is linked off www.mozilla.org, at least. (It is the license Mozilla is under). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 16:23:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7F315164; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:23:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05101; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:23:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd005007; Wed May 19 16:22:57 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA09945; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:22:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905192322.QAA09945@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:22:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chris@calldei.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3741BE86.54C4512B@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at May 18, 99 01:24:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The COM and DCOM books describe it in sufficient detail that it can > > be implemented. The one caveat is that EGCS vtable support sucks. > > Another caveat is that ActiveX is a giant can of bugs waiting to be released. > Do we really WANT to advertise support for ActiveX? I thought not. Actually, there are a large number of ActiveX modules that run on both Windows platforms and x86 Solaris. The IE version for x86 Solaris depends upon it. > > These are supported via the WIDE/INRIA/LANL code, though the WIDE stuff > > appears more mature. FreeBSD is not, however, shipping it. > > 3rd party? Installation's a bitch... unless you have 2.2.8. > You seem to assume other vendors have *working* SNMP implementations also. > I can testify from first-hand experience that this is only sort of true. > Working == works great if you use OUR management application to manage > OUR switches/servers/hosts. I'm saying that if you're going to correct them in public, then you need to meet some definition of "works". > > > > IPv6 It was developed on FreeBSD! Yes > > > > > > I wonder why they put N/A, then. > > > > FreeBSD is not shipping it, and it is not a package. > > 3rd party then, right? Same versioning problems as the VPN (IPSEC) stuff: ot for -current, not for 3.2-RELEASE. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 16:25: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58823157FF for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:24:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19758; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:24:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990519171814.045d9c80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:20:35 -0600 To: From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Your statement below doesn't bear on the problem. When the GPL invades your market segment and destroys your livelihood -- intentionally and maliciously -- you may begin to think differently. --Brett At 12:55 PM 5/19/99 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: >I don't see why. Linux and FreeBSD are both nice platforms to base >commercial software on. That's my entire business, and I haven't had any >problems... > >--- >tani hosokawa >river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 16:25: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7ACA15164 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19764; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:24:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990519172059.0460df10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:24:40 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990519164120.00988a50@mail.bfm.org> References: <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:41 PM 5/19/99 -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >In what ways? I can see how it will hurt Linux and Red Hat itself in the >long run, but how will it hurt all of us? (I am not arguing, I am asking.) The goal of the GPL is to destroy markets and to destroy choice. It is a weapon, crafted by Richard Stallman, against developers and vendors of commercial software, against whom he has an abiding grudge. This grudge began when the first commercial spinoff from the MIT AI Lab -- Symbolics -- refused to give away all of their source code. Read Stallman's "GNU Manifesto" for more. The section about programming being no more valuable than "standing on a corner making funny faces" is particularly telling. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 16:50:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652AB14BEC for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:50:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17209; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:50:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd017175; Wed May 19 16:50:21 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12086; Wed, 19 May 1999 16:50:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905192350.QAA12086@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! To: unknown@riverstyx.net Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:50:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, spork@super-g.com, howardjp@wam.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "unknown@riverstyx.net" at May 19, 99 12:55:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't see why. Linux and FreeBSD are both nice platforms to base > commercial software on. That's my entire business, and I haven't had > any problems... I don't know of one major company with any intellectual property to speak of which has bitten the GPL'ed software apple. The Linux putatively shipping on some large companies computer lines is not "biting the apple". They do not put any intellectual property at risk unless they engage in "value add" and/or maintenance/support. With the exception of Cobalt, which is a systems integrator more than a software company, and which has the MIPS processor and the "buy one box before you ask" barrier to supplicants demanding source code, I can't name one vendor that's showing up on any important radar anywhere. On the *BSD side, I can name Whistle, Freegate, Encanto, Vixie Enterprises, NCI (Oracle), Juniper, Internet Devices, Firepower systems, and many others. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 17:23:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0034A14EFC for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r41.bfm.org [208.18.213.137]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA29812; Wed, 19 May 1999 20:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990519192251.009728a0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:22:51 -0500 To: Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: The GBC and us Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519172059.0460df10@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.19990519164120.00988a50@mail.bfm.org> <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, I agree on all that. Yes, I have read Communist Manifesto, I mean GNU Manifesto (actually I read both), and all that. But the question is how does it hurt us? We who program for FreeBSD do not use GPL. I have personally never released anything under GPL (and I have been releasing software for a long time, most of the time with source code), so how is Red Hat's use thereof going to hurt me or you or us in general? I mean, sure, everything anyone does influences us one way or another. But I believe the impact will be big on those who use GPL, but not as big (although there probably will be *some*) on the rest of us. Red Hat is giving up its freedom in the long run. But they are not taking ours with it. I mean, as I have said in this forum before, I do see parallels between Stallman and Stahlmann, between GNU and Communist ideology. But has Communist ideology hurt non-Communist countries? It decimated the economy, nay, the society, of Communist countries (I know, I grew up in one), and it certainly had some influence on the rest of the world, such as the Cold War, McCarthyism, Reaganomics, to name just a few. But it caused no considerable damage to the rest of the world, certainly peanuts compared to what it did to Communist countries. Perhaps in some ways it helped: It showed the rest of the world how precious freedom is, among other things. By the same token, the GPL will most likely drive refugees from the GBC (GNU Borg Collective) to the world of FreeBSD, since we really are the only viable alternative (at this time, anyway). The GNU ideology is "contra naturam" hence cannot go on forever. Nature always prevails. Adam P.S. Incidentally, I still see Stallman more as naive than as "evil." And, yes, I think his ideology is dangerous - to his followers. Just because Stallman may not think that programming has more value than making funny faces does not make it so. At 17:24 19-05-1999 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >The goal of the GPL is to destroy markets and to destroy choice. It is >a weapon, crafted by Richard Stallman, against developers and vendors of >commercial software, against whom he has an abiding grudge. This grudge >began when the first commercial spinoff from the MIT AI Lab -- Symbolics -- >refused to give away all of their source code. > >Read Stallman's "GNU Manifesto" for more. The section about programming >being no more valuable than "standing on a corner making funny faces" >is particularly telling. > >--Brett Glass --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 17:39:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1806314EAA; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18513; Wed, 19 May 1999 20:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19990519203924.B14096@netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:39:24 -0400 From: Christopher Masto To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Chris Costello Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? References: <19990517205015.C15030@holly.dyndns.org> <19990518092553.A19168@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990518092553.A19168@ontario.mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Tue, May 18, 1999 at 09:25:53AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 18, 1999 at 09:25:53AM -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Mon, May 17, 1999 at 08:50:15PM -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > I read some interesting things at the URL below -- perhaps > > it's out of date. It says that there are no Front Page > > extensions, no email support, and no 'patch server' (does > > cvsup*.freebsd.org count?). > > > > http://www.BSDI.COM/products/internet/40-qna.mhtml#Q5 > > I love the entry under Reliability, "Uptimes > 1 year". They list BSDI as > having this as "Std" but FreeBSD is blank. Did someone forget to install > the "Uptime > 1 year" package ? ;-) Unfortunately an extended power outage ended it, but we had a machine here that was well over 600 days. And I still have never lost a production machine to a FreeBSD crash. In what must be over 25 machine-years of administering them. Meanwhile I've watched those around me with proprietary operating systems lose everything.. in one case, running a demo program in Visual Foxpro caused a colleague's Windows 98 system to crash and never boot again. Now it's been about two months since the power outage.. aaa up 66+21:30, 0 users, load 0.10, 0.10, 0.08 bbb up 66+21:09, 2 users, load 0.34, 0.33, 0.32 ccc up 66+21:03, 0 users, load 0.01, 0.03, 0.00 ddd up 66+20:39, 0 users, load 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 ... -- Christopher Masto Senior Network Monkey NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 17:47:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC3E14BDE for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 17:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18898; Wed, 19 May 1999 20:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19990519204729.C14096@netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:47:29 -0400 From: Christopher Masto To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.2.0.37.19990519093547.04100900@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519112517.00b3d620@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519112517.00b3d620@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, May 19, 1999 at 11:31:24AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 11:31:24AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > The GPL transforms a good effort into a bad one. It incorporates > the effort into Stallman's anti-business, anti-consumer, > monopolistic agenda. Yeah, but it pisses you off, which is reason enough to use it. -- Christopher Masto Senior Network Monkey NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 18: 2:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co [168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3E814F03 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 18:02:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem01.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.31]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA10707; Wed, 19 May 1999 19:58:19 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <37435D80.2B5EA8E3@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:55:29 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GBC and us References: <3.0.6.32.19990519164120.00988a50@mail.bfm.org> <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.19990519192251.009728a0@mail.bfm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" escribió: > > But the question is how does it hurt us? We who program for FreeBSD do not > use GPL. I have personally never released anything under GPL (and I have > been releasing software for a long time, most of the time with source > code), so how is Red Hat's use thereof going to hurt me or you or us in > general? > When your neighbor gets beaten up by the communist party, you simply can't ignore it for much time. It happened in Eastern Europe, I guess, and it happened in Latin America...we simply don't learn. FWIW, I wrote my first article for the Daemon News about the GPL, let's see if it qualifies... cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 19:27:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD65715063 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 19:27:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r12.bfm.org [208.18.213.108]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id WAA02408; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990519212651.00984650@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:26:51 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: The GBC and us Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37435D80.2B5EA8E3@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <3.0.6.32.19990519164120.00988a50@mail.bfm.org> <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.19990519192251.009728a0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 19:55 19-05-1999 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >When your neighbor gets beaten up by the communist party, you simply can't >ignore it for much time. I can't ignore that at all. But if a member of Communist Party gets beat up by his own, he gets what he was asking for. I'll feel the same about Red Hat when the karma of their own choices ripens. (Does anybody feel sorry for M*cr*S*ft's trouble with the DOJ? No, they asked for it. On the other hand, if Uncle Bill were taken by force into a DOJO and got beat... Never mind, bad pun.) >FWIW, I wrote my first article for the Daemon News about the GPL, let's see if >it qualifies... Let us know when it is published! Ciao, Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 19:53: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co [168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B06153D0 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 19:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem01.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.31]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10802; Wed, 19 May 1999 21:52:26 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <37437841.19BB2CFE@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:49:39 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GBC and us References: <3.0.6.32.19990519164120.00988a50@mail.bfm.org> <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.19990519192251.009728a0@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990519212651.00984650@mail.bfm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oops, I have a reply for that, but I'll keep it to myself :-). Have you noticed this ends up being a religious issue ? Pedro. "G. Adam Stanislav" escribió: > At 19:55 19-05-1999 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > >When your neighbor gets beaten up by the communist party, you simply can't > >ignore it for much time. > > I can't ignore that at all. But if a member of Communist Party gets beat up > by his own, he gets what he was asking for. I'll feel the same about Red > Hat when the karma of their own choices ripens. (Does anybody feel sorry > for M*cr*S*ft's trouble with the DOJ? No, they asked for it. On the other > hand, if Uncle Bill were taken by force into a DOJO and got beat... Never > mind, bad pun.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 20:35:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9205F15459 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 20:35:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21907; Wed, 19 May 1999 21:35:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990519213052.045da620@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:33:45 -0600 To: Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <19990519204729.C14096@netmonger.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990519112517.00b3d620@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519093547.04100900@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519112517.00b3d620@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:47 PM 5/19/99 -0400, Christopher Masto wrote: >On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 11:31:24AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > The GPL transforms a good effort into a bad one. It incorporates > > the effort into Stallman's anti-business, anti-consumer, > > monopolistic agenda. > >Yeah, but it pisses you off, which is reason enough to use it. If you're really petty enough to hurt others, and perhaps sabotage your own future, just because you think it'll piss off one person, go right ahead. Make my day. But hopefully, you'll consider more important factors -- for example, the broader consequences of your actions. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 22:54:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E35614C83 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 22:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-69-39.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.69.39]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26942; Thu, 20 May 1999 01:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA54009; Thu, 20 May 1999 01:56:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199905200556.BAA54009@bellsouth.net> To: Chuck Robey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: c9x (new ANSI C) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 May 1999 01:14:51 EDT." Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 01:56:11 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [my noise to -chat] > I keep hearing the comment that OO lets you visualize programming more > "naturally". Please find me a single 4 year old that forms ideas on how > to get things done (like dress himself) using an object oriented > approach. Similar to Stepanov's criticism? http://www.bml.ca/marine/stepanov.htm (An excerpt from this interview) Q: I think STL and Generic Programming mark a definite departure from the common C++ programming style, which I find is almost completely derived from SmallTalk. Do you agree? A: Yes. STL is not object oriented. I think that object orientedness is almost as much of a hoax as Artificial Intelligence. I have yet to see an interesting piece of code that comes from these OO people. [snips...] I find OOP technically unsound. It attempts to decompose the world in terms of interfaces that vary on a single type. To deal with the real problems you need multisorted algebras - families of interfaces that span multiple types. I find OOP philosophically unsound. It claims that everything is an object. Even if it is true it is not very interesting - saying that everything is an object is saying nothing at all. I find OOP methodologically wrong. It starts with classes. It is as if mathematicians would start with axioms. You do not start with axioms - you start with proofs. Only when you have found a bunch of related proofs, can you come up with axioms. You end with axioms. The same thing is true in programming: you have to start with interesting algorithms. Only when you understand them well, can you come up with an interface that will let them work. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 19 23:17:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D7114EBB for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 23:17:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 19 May 1999 23:17:26 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "W Gerald Hicks" , "Chuck Robey" Cc: Subject: RE: c9x (new ANSI C) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:17:26 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bea288$6e58fc10$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199905200556.BAA54009@bellsouth.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >It is as if mathematicians >would start with axioms. You do not start with axioms - you start with proofs. >Only when you have found a bunch of related proofs, can you come up with >axioms. I thought that a 'proof' was a means of deriving new knowledge from past knowledge. With no past knowledge (axioms), how do you have any proofs? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 5: 9: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop04.iname.net (pop04.iname.net [165.251.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DBF714F50 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 05:09:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r22.bfm.org [208.18.213.118]) by pop04.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id IAA06184; Thu, 20 May 1999 08:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990520070658.00974d70@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:06:58 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: The GBC and us Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37437841.19BB2CFE@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <3.0.6.32.19990519164120.00988a50@mail.bfm.org> <4.2.0.37.19990519133227.045d7cb0@localhost> <3.0.6.32.19990519192251.009728a0@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990519212651.00984650@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 21:49 19-05-1999 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Oops, I have a reply for that, but I'll keep it to myself :-). Have you noticed >this ends up being a religious issue ? You mean something like: GNU -- opium for the masses? :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 5:14:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (unknown [142.177.193.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C0AD14E58 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 05:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA57771 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 09:13:27 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:13:26 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: SGI, XFS and OSS? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just in case nobody has yet seen this...? http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,36807,00.html?st.ne.fd.tohhed.ni Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 6:15:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096F615190 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 06:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA25741 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:15:14 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:15:13 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: seti Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.sco.com/seti/ but especially http://www.sco.com/seti/scripts.html Why not have similar page(s)? We the links pointing at the relevant ports, for example. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 7:40:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r45.bfm.org [208.18.213.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE2315135; Thu, 20 May 1999 07:40:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id JAA00272; Thu, 20 May 1999 09:40:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:39:43 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Message-ID: <19990520093943.B240@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519103533.00b3d380@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> <19990520001613.B69023@bitbox.follo.net> <3.0.6.32.19990519172425.009633f0@mail.bfm.org> <19990520003231.C69023@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990520003231.C69023@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 12:32:31AM +0200 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 12:32:31AM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 05:24:25PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > At 00:16 20-05-1999 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > >If you feel you need to protect the code from "exploitation", consider > > >using the NPL (with the initial developer clause) instead of the GPL. > > > > What is NPL? Where is it available? > > The Netscape Pulic License. It is linked off www.mozilla.org, at > least. (It is the license Mozilla is under). Hmmm... I just read it. I am not sure I would want to release my code under it. I think if we wanted to send letters to authors of gpled software, the artistic license would be a much better alternative. It is also the only free software license which allows to "make other distribution arrangements with the Copyright Holder." It also prohibits others from outright selling the package (while reasonable copying fees are acceptable). That is one of the things I dislike about GPL the most: It encourages others to make profit off someone else's (possibly hard) work. Artistic license also permits software to be distributed along with non-free software, so the Borg aspect of GPL is eliminated. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 8:56:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91C4714FD0 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 08:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA21404; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:56:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA75196; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:56:25 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:56:24 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Message-ID: <19990520175624.G70539@bitbox.follo.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519103533.00b3d380@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> <19990520001613.B69023@bitbox.follo.net> <3.0.6.32.19990519172425.009633f0@mail.bfm.org> <19990520003231.C69023@bitbox.follo.net> <19990520093943.B240@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990520093943.B240@whizkidtech.net>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 09:39:43AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 09:39:43AM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 12:32:31AM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 05:24:25PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > At 00:16 20-05-1999 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > >If you feel you need to protect the code from "exploitation", consider > > > >using the NPL (with the initial developer clause) instead of the GPL. > > > > > > What is NPL? Where is it available? > > > > The Netscape Pulic License. It is linked off www.mozilla.org, at > > least. (It is the license Mozilla is under). > > Hmmm... I just read it. I am not sure I would want to release my > code under it. The reason for using the NPL is that it leave a 'loophole' for the initial developer of the software to release the software (with contributed changes) under another license. This allows later evaluation of other license options that can give better benefit (e.g, the ability to let a commercial company create a product from the software in exchange for contributing specific changes or donating money to specific charities). > I think if we wanted to send letters to authors of gpled software, > the artistic license would be a much better alternative. It is also > the only free software license which allows to "make other > distribution arrangements with the Copyright Holder." That's because other licenses do not make a point of repeating copyright law ;-) > It also prohibits others from outright selling the package (while > reasonable copying fees are acceptable). That is one of the things I > dislike about GPL the most: It encourages others to make profit off > someone else's (possibly hard) work. I do not have a problem with people making profit off the work I release. The *point* of it is to make something that is useful to people. If people use my software in a business environment *at all*, they are making a profit somehow (or screwups in my software is destroying their time - I hope not...) If somebody can take my software and add percieved value to it, thus making a profit for themselves and give value to the "normal" users of the software - hey, they're making the world a better place. Money is only paid if you believe you get value for it - thus the users somehow percieve they get more value from getting the software off the people selling it than off the net. I also like profit going to people that are somehow involved in open source, even it is just as consumers of a sourcebase. This makes it much more likely that the money will channel back to open source development than if it just stayed with the ladder companies that bought the product based on open source. That last example is from my own experiences; we used to make FreeBSD based Internet connection boxes (similar to the Whistle InterJet). The ladder company mentioned above is one of those that bought the product; through the sale of the product, the changes that was done to make it possible was paid off. Those of the changes that were generally useful (and which didn't break other generally useful things which were not needed in our specific situation, and were not so dirty I was ashamed of being seen with them in public) has been contributed back to FreeBSD. An example of this is the PnP support in if_ed; another is the TTY emulation code for rbch in i4b, which allow a multilink PPP daemon to run over it (I'm going to release the mods I did to mpd as soon as I find the time to clean them up so they don't break other uses; I've been procastinating that for way too long...) As it is, (almost) everybody is happy: The customers got a product fitting their needs, we got a profit (or probably not - the product generated way more support load than anticipated, which is why it has been discontinued - but getting a profit was the intention), and FreeBSD got useful changes. Without the BSD license (which is what made us willing to risk working on kernel mods at all; the knowledge that we *could* keep it to ourselves if we needed to) the product would not have happened, and the customers would most likely have bought NT instead. This would not have resulted in *any* benefit, beyond a warm fuzzy feeling in somebody that 'nobody is making a profit off my hard work'. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 9:24:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930401520B for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 09:24:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA74941; Thu, 20 May 1999 12:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:24:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: c9x (new ANSI C) In-Reply-To: <199905200556.BAA54009@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 May 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > [my noise to -chat] > > > I keep hearing the comment that OO lets you visualize programming more > > "naturally". Please find me a single 4 year old that forms ideas on how > > to get things done (like dress himself) using an object oriented > > approach. > > Similar to Stepanov's criticism? > > http://www.bml.ca/marine/stepanov.htm > > (An excerpt from this interview) Now that's a fascinating interview, thanks! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 10: 3:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB72714FF1 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 10:03:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r27.bfm.org [208.18.213.123]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id NAA12028; Thu, 20 May 1999 13:03:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990520120308.00963100@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:03:08 -0500 To: Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: seti In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:15 20-05-1999 +0300, Narvi wrote: > > http://www.sco.com/seti/ > >but especially > > http://www.sco.com/seti/scripts.html > > >Why not have similar page(s)? We the links pointing at the relevant >ports, for example. Go for it! Let us know when you have the pages ready. > There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - > all these are just illusions. Same about hate, evil, despair, and past. :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 10:17:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E598B14D25 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 3.00 #1) id 10kVYt-0004q1-00; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:20:47 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:20:47 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Eric Hodel Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: distributed.net stats Message-ID: <19990520172047.A18584@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <373DBD37.D2BE2971@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <373DBD37.D2BE2971@seattleu.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Hodel wrote: > Japan FreeBSD Users Group is ahead of Japan Linux Users Group in the > team stats, and we're running 202 fewer machines. This may not mean > anything at all, but it is kind of neat. > > JFUG? - approx 1119 KKeys/sec/machine > > JLUG? - approx 650 KKeys/sec/machine > > http://rc5stats.distributed.net/rc5-64/tmsummary.php3?team=1277 Is this the team FreeBSD users should join, rather than "Team FreeBSD" around number 20? If so, I may as well move, the Japan team has more chance of staying at number one. (but my machine can only manage about 220kkeys/sec.) -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 11:45:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 773FA150CA; Thu, 20 May 1999 11:45:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 20 May 1999 11:45:36 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Eivind Eklund" Cc: Subject: RE: GPL alternatives Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:45:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01bea2f0$f2e335a0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990520093943.B240@whizkidtech.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > license which allows to "make other distribution arrangements > with the Copyright > Holder." I don't think any license could prevent that. It's hard to see how the author would become subject to the license in the first place. He doesn't need the license to grant him any rights to his own software since he already has them. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 12:16:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A71152A8 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 12:16:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10128; Thu, 20 May 1999 12:23:09 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:23:08 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Brett Glass Cc: spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990519171814.045d9c80@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I doubt it. I'd find it very odd if a software license started taking quotes from customers and taking contracts away from me. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Your statement below doesn't bear on the problem. > > When the GPL invades your market segment and destroys your livelihood -- > intentionally and maliciously -- you may begin to think differently. > > --Brett > > At 12:55 PM 5/19/99 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > >I don't see why. Linux and FreeBSD are both nice platforms to base > >commercial software on. That's my entire business, and I haven't had any > >problems... > > > >--- > >tani hosokawa > >river styx internet > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 12:21:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D51152A8 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 12:21:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10249; Thu, 20 May 1999 12:28:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:28:34 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Terry Lambert Cc: brett@lariat.org, spork@super-g.com, howardjp@wam.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <199905192350.QAA12086@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's an irrelevant argument. None of the companies you listed may be releasin software under the GPL, but I wouldn't expect commercial software to be released under the GPL. I'm saying that RedHat and Linux aren't any threat to commercial software. I don't think any of their actions are going to "poison the apple". --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Wed, 19 May 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I don't see why. Linux and FreeBSD are both nice platforms to base > > commercial software on. That's my entire business, and I haven't had > > any problems... > > > I don't know of one major company with any intellectual property to > speak of which has bitten the GPL'ed software apple. > > The Linux putatively shipping on some large companies computer lines > is not "biting the apple". They do not put any intellectual property > at risk unless they engage in "value add" and/or maintenance/support. > > With the exception of Cobalt, which is a systems integrator more > than a software company, and which has the MIPS processor and the > "buy one box before you ask" barrier to supplicants demanding > source code, I can't name one vendor that's showing up on any > important radar anywhere. > > On the *BSD side, I can name Whistle, Freegate, Encanto, Vixie > Enterprises, NCI (Oracle), Juniper, Internet Devices, Firepower > systems, and many others. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 13:12:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9648F14C09 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 13:12:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-235.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.235]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA16066; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:12:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA34850; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:12:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905202012.PAA34850@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-reply-to: Message from The Hermit Hacker of "Thu, 20 May 1999 09:13:26 -0300." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:12:30 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Hermit Hacker writes: > > Just in case nobody has yet seen this...? > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,36807,00.html?st.ne.fd.tohhed.ni This is great news. My slowest SGI systems have faster metadata updates than my fastest FreeBSD systems, same disk hardware. No details yet as to the license terms. Hope they are open enough for it to have a chance at becoming FreeBSD's default fs. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Sun adopted SGI's XFS filesystem too? More details at: http://www.sgi.com/newsroom/press_releases/1999/may/xfs.html -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 13:46:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58BB15342 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 13:46:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA24412; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:46:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA77218; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:46:04 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:46:04 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: David Kelly Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? Message-ID: <19990520224604.H76043@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199905202012.PAA34850@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199905202012.PAA34850@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 03:12:30PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 03:12:30PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > The Hermit Hacker writes: > > > > Just in case nobody has yet seen this...? > > > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,36807,00.html?st.ne.fd.tohhed.ni > > This is great news. My slowest SGI systems have faster metadata updates > than my fastest FreeBSD systems, same disk hardware. Running soft updates? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 13:55:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r32.bfm.org [208.18.213.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F1C156B6; Thu, 20 May 1999 13:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id PAA00279; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:55:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:55:19 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Message-ID: <19990520155519.B235@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519103533.00b3d380@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519114402.00b37230@localhost> <19990520001613.B69023@bitbox.follo.net> <3.0.6.32.19990519172425.009633f0@mail.bfm.org> <19990520003231.C69023@bitbox.follo.net> <19990520093943.B240@whizkidtech.net> <19990520175624.G70539@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990520175624.G70539@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 05:56:24PM +0200 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 05:56:24PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > I think if we wanted to send letters to authors of gpled software, > > the artistic license would be a much better alternative. It is also > > the only free software license which allows to "make other > > distribution arrangements with the Copyright Holder." > > That's because other licenses do not make a point of repeating > copyright law ;-) The copyright law does give the author the right to give up all his rights. Many an author has to ask his publisher for the permission to have his own work published somewhere else. The wording of the GPL does allow for the possible interpretation that the author has given up all his rights to his work. Indeed, it could be argued that the author has transfered all his rights to FSF. It could also be argued that he did not. But who wants to spend time in court arguing when you can use clear wording, such as offered by the artistic license. > > It also prohibits others from outright selling the package (while > > reasonable copying fees are acceptable). That is one of the things I > > dislike about GPL the most: It encourages others to make profit off > > someone else's (possibly hard) work. > > I do not have a problem with people making profit off the work I > release. The *point* of it is to make something that is useful to > people. > > If people use my software in a business environment *at all*, they are > making a profit somehow (or screwups in my software is destroying > their time - I hope not...) That is different from outright selling your work for pure profit, without adding any value to it. > If somebody can take my software and add > percieved value to it, thus making a profit for themselves and give > value to the "normal" users of the software - hey, they're making the > world a better place. Yes, if they add value to it. But GPL expressly allows anyone to sell gpled software for anything customers are willing to pay, but without adding anything to it. It explicitly states that it being free does not mean it cannot be sold. At the same time, GPL gives nothing back to the author as far as finances are concerned. That is unbalanced. It is almost like giving it out to public domain, with the only exception that whatever you do with it you must include the source code forever. When I write free software, I want it to be free for anyone to *use*, not for anyone to *sell*. I might allow them to sell it, but in that case I want to see some of that money. > Money is only paid if you believe you get value > for it - thus the users somehow percieve they get more value from > getting the software off the people selling it than off the net. Fine. But in that case, as the author, I want my chunk. Heck, I will gladly sell my software to anyone who wants to pay for it. No need for a middleman. > I also like profit going to people that are somehow involved in open > source, even it is just as consumers of a sourcebase. This makes it > much more likely that the money will channel back to open source > development than if it just stayed with the ladder companies that > bought the product based on open source. That's what I'm talking about. Channeling it back. > That last example is from my own experiences; we used to make FreeBSD > based Internet connection boxes (similar to the Whistle InterJet). > The ladder company mentioned above is one of those that bought the > product; through the sale of the product, the changes that was done to > make it possible was paid off. > > Those of the changes that were generally useful (and which didn't > break other generally useful things which were not needed in our > specific situation, and were not so dirty I was ashamed of being seen > with them in public) has been contributed back to FreeBSD. An example > of this is the PnP support in if_ed; another is the TTY emulation code > for rbch in i4b, which allow a multilink PPP daemon to run over it > (I'm going to release the mods I did to mpd as soon as I find the time > to clean them up so they don't break other uses; I've been > procastinating that for way too long...) > > As it is, (almost) everybody is happy: The customers got a product > fitting their needs, we got a profit (or probably not - the product > generated way more support load than anticipated, which is why it has > been discontinued - but getting a profit was the intention), and > FreeBSD got useful changes. Yes, but you were not just selling the product. You added to it, you provided support, you gave something back to FreeBSD, etc. You were paid for your effort, not for making a copy of the software on the disk, taking money for it, and leaving the customer on his own. I have no problem with that. What I would have a serious problem with is if, for example, someone walked to a computer business and asked how he could create counters for his web site, and the business would offer to sell him a diskette with my Graphic Counter Language for $249 (or any amount) and say, "This is what you need. Just type 'make install' then visit this web page to learn how to use it." If, on the other hand, they helped them download the software from my web site, installed it for them, perhaps designed a counter, or taught them how to design one, and charged them for the time they used, more power to them. > Without the BSD license (which is what made us willing to risk working > on kernel mods at all; the knowledge that we *could* keep it to > ourselves if we needed to) the product would not have happened, and > the customers would most likely have bought NT instead. This would > not have resulted in *any* benefit, beyond a warm fuzzy feeling in > somebody that 'nobody is making a profit off my hard work'. Why yes, the BSD license is the best. I certainly do not have any objections against it. Heck, I use it all the time. It is the GPL that this whole thread is about. We were talking about what kind of letter could be sent to authors using GPL. Netscape license was suggested as an alternative, to which I opined that the artistic license might be a better choice. It is philosophically similar to the GPL, but without the Borg stuff. And it does allow you to make money supporting the product. You cannot just sell it as if you owned it. That has nothing to do with warm fuzzy feelings. My point is that the artistic license is a good alternative to GPL, not to BSD license. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 14: 1:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C09E14CFE; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-235.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.235]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA27023; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:01:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA79579; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:01:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905202101.QAA79579@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-reply-to: Message from Eivind Eklund of "Thu, 20 May 1999 22:46:04 +0200." <19990520224604.H76043@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:01:22 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 03:12:30PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > The Hermit Hacker writes: > > > > > > Just in case nobody has yet seen this...? > > > > > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,36807,00.html?st.ne.fd.tohhed.ni > > > > This is great news. My slowest SGI systems have faster metadata updates > > than my fastest FreeBSD systems, same disk hardware. > > Running soft updates? Yup. But all measurements were seat-of-the-pants. Didn't much bother to time things as at the time all that could do was to make me unhappy. An SGI system could fly right thru tar'ing FreeBSD's ports tree, either on read from tape or write to tape, where FreeBSD 3.1 with softupdates and 2.2.8 (without) can't keep the DDS-2 tape drive streaming (400k/sec). 10k blocksize in both cases. At my now former employer, I kept /home/ncvs and /usr/ports hosted on an SGI O2, 180MHz, 64MB RAM, and let the FreeBSD systems access via 10baseT ethernet. Mostly because the SGI was where disk space was available. Partly because it seemed faster. Another good test of speed was "rm -rf /usr/ports". The O2 could do it so fast it was frightening. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 14:19:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r10.bfm.org [208.18.213.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE25414FD3 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:19:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA00291; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:19:33 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:19:03 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Message-ID: <19990520161903.C235@whizkidtech.net> References: <19990520093943.B240@whizkidtech.net> <000c01bea2f0$f2e335a0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <000c01bea2f0$f2e335a0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 11:45:36AM -0700 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 11:45:36AM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > license which allows to "make other distribution arrangements > > with the Copyright > > Holder." > > I don't think any license could prevent that. It's hard to see how the > author would become subject to the license in the first place. He doesn't > need the license to grant him any rights to his own software since he > already has them. That is not what I said (although I did say at other times GPL could be interpreted that way). The making of other arrangements does not refer to what the author can or cannot do. It suggests to anyone who would like to make such arrangements with the author that the author may be willing to negotiate. It is generally hard to imagine that the author of gpled software would be willing to negotiate. After all, his use of GPL indicates that he subscribes to a philosophy that allows no exceptions to GPL principles. So it is good to see a license which expressly states that other arrangements are negotiable. As for the author having rights: They can be sold or otherwise assigned to someone else. In that case the author no longer has those rights (or can have some but not others). In most case, though, he can recover them after a period of time. In the case of work for hire, however, the author never owns any rights to his work. Of course, in that case he does not have the right to license anything anyway. :-) As for my contention that GPL can be interpreted as giving away all of your rights, that is only one possible interpretation and would most likely not prevail in court (in my opinion). But then, as the case of the famous football star has shown, you never know which way a court decision would go... Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 14:35:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94E814C8D; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:35:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:35:16 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Eivind Eklund" Cc: Subject: RE: GPL alternatives Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:35:15 -0700 Message-ID: <000501bea308$a5fd9d80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990520155519.B235@whizkidtech.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 05:56:24PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > I think if we wanted to send letters to authors of gpled software, > > > the artistic license would be a much better alternative. It is also > > > the only free software license which allows to "make other > > > distribution arrangements with the Copyright Holder." > > > > That's because other licenses do not make a point of repeating > > copyright law ;-) > > The copyright law does give the author the right to give up all > his rights. > Many an author has to ask his publisher for the permission to have his own > work published somewhere else. Yes, but he would have to give them to someone else, by contract. > The wording of the GPL does allow for the possible interpretation that the > author has given up all his rights to his work. Indeed, it could be argued > that the author has transfered all his rights to FSF. It could > also be argued > that he did not. But who wants to spend time in court arguing when you can > use clear wording, such as offered by the artistic license. I see no indiciation that the FSF is a party to the GPL, assuming one simply places ones work under it. I could definitely see the other interpretation if one assignes ones code to the FSF. > When I write free software, I want it to be free for anyone to > *use*, not for > anyone to *sell*. I might allow them to sell it, but in that case > I want to > see some of that money. When I write free software, I want it to be free for anybody to use or sell. I want it to increase the quality and decrease the cost of software. If I wanted to see some money, I wouldn't write free software. > > Without the BSD license (which is what made us willing to risk working > > on kernel mods at all; the knowledge that we *could* keep it to > > ourselves if we needed to) the product would not have happened, and > > the customers would most likely have bought NT instead. This would > > not have resulted in *any* benefit, beyond a warm fuzzy feeling in > > somebody that 'nobody is making a profit off my hard work'. > > Why yes, the BSD license is the best. I certainly do not have any > objections > against it. Heck, I use it all the time. It is the GPL that this whole > thread is about. We were talking about what kind of letter could be sent > to authors using GPL. Netscape license was suggested as an alternative, to > which I opined that the artistic license might be a better choice. It is > philosophically similar to the GPL, but without the Borg stuff. I have serious problems with the BSD license. My biggest one is that it requires you to foist a disclaimer on your customer. This makes it intolerable for companies like mine who take responsibility for their software. I wish the BSD license allowed you two options: 1) You indemnify the author and make no representations about the original author, or 2) You make your customers indemnify the author, and you accurately credit/blame the code on the original author. However, the BSD license only permits the second option. > And it does allow you to make money supporting the product. You > cannot just > sell it as if you owned it. That has nothing to do with warm > fuzzy feelings. Nor can you make, distribute, and sell derived works without having to force your customers to indemnify the original author(s). You are prohibited from taking responsibility for your own software. > My point is that the artistic license is a good alternative to GPL, not to > BSD license. Anything is a good alternative to the GPL. Unfortunately, even the artistic license prevents you from taking responsibility for your own compiled/linked code. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 14:35:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1A814C8D for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:35:20 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Subject: RE: GPL alternatives Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:35:20 -0700 Message-ID: <000701bea308$a8f61d00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990520161903.C235@whizkidtech.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It is generally hard to imagine that the author of gpled software would be > willing to negotiate. After all, his use of GPL indicates that he > subscribes > to a philosophy that allows no exceptions to GPL principles. In my experience, most authors of GPL'd code don't understand the GPL principles. The more prominent authors are exceptions. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 14:36:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD99714C8D for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29716; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:35:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990520145111.044f4ab0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:54:29 -0600 To: unknown@riverstyx.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.37.19990519171814.045d9c80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's the purpose of the GPL: to destroy your markets and your livelihood. Making money by licensing software is evil, you see, so We Of The GNU Borg Collective must stop you by giving away what you are trying to sell. You Will Be Assimilated. --Electrocutis of Borg At 12:23 PM 5/20/99 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: >I doubt it. I'd find it very odd if a software license started taking >quotes from customers and taking contracts away from me. > >--- >tani hosokawa >river styx internet > > >On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > Your statement below doesn't bear on the problem. > > > > When the GPL invades your market segment and destroys your livelihood -- > > intentionally and maliciously -- you may begin to think differently. > > > > --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 14:47:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D4D14FC1 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:47:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA25162; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:47:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA77620; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:47:10 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:47:10 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: David Schwartz Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Message-ID: <19990520234710.J76043@bitbox.follo.net> References: <19990520155519.B235@whizkidtech.net> <000501bea308$a5fd9d80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <000501bea308$a5fd9d80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:35:15PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:35:15PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > Why yes, the BSD license is the best. I certainly do not have any > > objections > > against it. Heck, I use it all the time. It is the GPL that this whole > > thread is about. We were talking about what kind of letter could be sent > > to authors using GPL. Netscape license was suggested as an alternative, to > > which I opined that the artistic license might be a better choice. It is > > philosophically similar to the GPL, but without the Borg stuff. > > I have serious problems with the BSD license. My biggest one is that it > requires you to foist a disclaimer on your customer. This makes it > intolerable for companies like mine who take responsibility for their > software. > > I wish the BSD license allowed you two options: > > 1) You indemnify the author and make no representations about > the original author, or > > 2) You make your customers indemnify the author, and you > accurately credit/blame the code on the original author. > > However, the BSD license only permits the second option. You can copyright your modifications and take any blame for them. It is just the original, unmodified code that is disclaimed. Dropping the disclaimer do not seem like an option, due to US law even allowing you to sue and recover damages from people that have released code in the public domain (!). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 14:56: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (CJC26.RESNET.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.234.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE43814FC1 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:56:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA09529 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:57:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:57:09 +0000 (GMT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives In-Reply-To: <19990520155519.B235@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > I have no problem with that. What I would have a serious problem with is if, > for example, someone walked to a computer business and asked how he could > create counters for his web site, and the business would offer to sell him > a diskette with my Graphic Counter Language for $249 (or any amount) and > say, "This is what you need. Just type 'make install' then visit this web > page to learn how to use it." If that customer can't be bothered to do a simple web search first to find out what's out there and what's freely available, then he or she deserves to be screwed over. Caveat emptor. Cliff Crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- i l i k e o a t m e a l )O( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 15:53:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co [168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7D014D35 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 15:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem01.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.31]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11670 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 14:34:16 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3744630D.FA08C679@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:31:26 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives References: <000c01bea2f0$f2e335a0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW, if you can't convince them to change the license to something free, at least try to have them use the LGPL. It sounds similar, which is VERY important for some people ;-). Pedro. David Schwartz wrote: > > license which allows to "make other distribution arrangements > > with the Copyright > > Holder." > > I don't think any license could prevent that. It's hard to see how the > author would become subject to the license in the first place. He doesn't > need the license to grant him any rights to his own software since he > already has them. > > DS > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 16:11:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from november.jaded.net (november.jaded.net [209.90.128.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4A815827 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:11:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@november.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by november.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3+trinsec_nospam) id TAA99632; Thu, 20 May 1999 19:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:17:55 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Message-ID: <19990520191755.B99523@trinsec.com> References: <19990520161903.C235@whizkidtech.net> <000701bea308$a8f61d00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <000701bea308$a8f61d00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:35:20PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > It is generally hard to imagine that the author of gpled software would be | > willing to negotiate. After all, his use of GPL indicates that he | > subscribes | > to a philosophy that allows no exceptions to GPL principles. | | In my experience, most authors of GPL'd code don't understand the GPL | principles. The more prominent authors are exceptions. There is a license created by one of the engineers at SCO called the "Good Citizen's" license. In essence, here it is: a) Code is still property of the author. b) Code is open source, and may be modified to suit your own personal needs. c) Program CAN be sold if the author wishes it, and it CAN be given away if the author wishes it. I think that's the jidst of it. It's been a while since I've read it, and I may be able to dig up a copy if anyone is interested. Regards, Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 16:13:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B491530E for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14386; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:19:55 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:19:55 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Brett Glass Cc: spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990520145111.044f4ab0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org People come to us because they've heard that we do good things. Even if there was a GPL replacement for our software (and there are several far cheaper products that do nearly identical things) our customers would continue to use our products. We also provide custom solutions to our clients and are able to guarantee that they are the only people who get those customizations, giving them a market advantage. That's illegal under the GPL, which is another reason to go with us. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Thu, 20 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > That's the purpose of the GPL: to destroy your markets and your livelihood. > Making money by licensing software is evil, you see, so We Of The GNU Borg > Collective must stop you by giving away what you are trying to sell. You > Will Be Assimilated. > > --Electrocutis of Borg > > At 12:23 PM 5/20/99 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > >I doubt it. I'd find it very odd if a software license started taking > >quotes from customers and taking contracts away from me. > > > >--- > >tani hosokawa > >river styx internet > > > > > >On Wed, 19 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > Your statement below doesn't bear on the problem. > > > > > > When the GPL invades your market segment and destroys your livelihood -- > > > intentionally and maliciously -- you may begin to think differently. > > > > > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 16:31: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04131158BB for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.41]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA103B; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:21:01 -0400 Message-ID: <37447CA7.F2E519D9@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:20:40 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org They already released OpenVault; http://www.sgi.com/software/opensource/openvault/ but of course this went unnoticed (AFAIK) in the freebsd-fs list. I didn't read the license throughly, but it didn't seem to be the GPL :=). cheers, Pedro. The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Just in case nobody has yet seen this...? > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,36807,00.html?st.ne.fd.tohhed.ni > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 16:31:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E0BF158F1 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.41]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA103B; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:21:01 -0400 Message-ID: <37447CA7.F2E519D9@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:20:40 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org They already released OpenVault; http://www.sgi.com/software/opensource/openvault/ but of course this went unnoticed (AFAIK) in the freebsd-fs list. I didn't read the license throughly, but it didn't seem to be the GPL :=). cheers, Pedro. The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Just in case nobody has yet seen this...? > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,36807,00.html?st.ne.fd.tohhed.ni > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 16:59:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C50215009 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 16:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA26313; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:59:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA78487; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:59:48 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:59:47 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: David Kelly Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? Message-ID: <19990521015947.R76043@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199905202101.QAA79579@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199905202101.QAA79579@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 04:01:22PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 04:01:22PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: [On FreeBSD w/soft updates being slower than XFS] > Yup. But all measurements were seat-of-the-pants. Didn't much bother to > time things as at the time all that could do was to make me unhappy. An > SGI system could fly right thru tar'ing FreeBSD's ports tree, either on > read from tape or write to tape, where FreeBSD 3.1 with softupdates and > 2.2.8 (without) can't keep the DDS-2 tape drive streaming (400k/sec). > 10k blocksize in both cases. > > At my now former employer, I kept /home/ncvs and /usr/ports hosted on an > SGI O2, 180MHz, 64MB RAM, and let the FreeBSD systems access via 10baseT > ethernet. Mostly because the SGI was where disk space was available. > Partly because it seemed faster. > > Another good test of speed was "rm -rf /usr/ports". The O2 could do it > so fast it was frightening. Heh - both of those are due to problems with the directory layout logic, I think, not due to problems with FFS in itself. The logic for where to put the inode for new directories is very bad for the ports collection; it should be tuned. However, I do not see that as a reason for replacing the entire FS code :-) It is possible XFS will be faster no matter what, but I don't think it will be that much faster. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 17: 8: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2E114D0B; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:08:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C5C924040; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA4F59A5C; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:08:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Eivind Eklund Cc: David Kelly , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-Reply-To: <199905202050.QAA16666@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: :> This is great news. My slowest SGI systems have faster metadata updates :> than my fastest FreeBSD systems, same disk hardware. : :Running soft updates? XFS is -FAST- Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 17:18: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8098214F71 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:18:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA26631; Fri, 21 May 1999 02:18:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA78781; Fri, 21 May 1999 02:18:01 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:18:00 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Jamie Bowden Cc: David Kelly , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? Message-ID: <19990521021800.S76043@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199905202050.QAA16666@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jamie Bowden on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 08:08:14PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 08:08:14PM -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > :> This is great news. My slowest SGI systems have faster metadata updates > :> than my fastest FreeBSD systems, same disk hardware. > : > :Running soft updates? > > XFS is -FAST- How do you measure the speed of XFS vs FFS? I cannot think of any really decent benchmark without having implementations of both in the same OS, and being certain that they are optimized the same way. Don't the O2s have NVRAM for logging the metadata changes? That'd make a tremendous difference right away... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 17:20:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7602A14F4D for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16334 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:27:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:27:50 -0700 (PDT) From: To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: reiserfs?? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org on the topic of filesystems, is reiserfs coming to freebsd? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 17:58: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC25F15316; Thu, 20 May 1999 17:58:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1C3114040; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B70C9A5C; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:58:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Eivind Eklund Cc: David Kelly , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-Reply-To: <19990521021800.S76043@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: :On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 08:08:14PM -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: :> On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: :> :> :> This is great news. My slowest SGI systems have faster metadata updates :> :> than my fastest FreeBSD systems, same disk hardware. :> : :> :Running soft updates? :> :> XFS is -FAST- : :How do you measure the speed of XFS vs FFS? I cannot think of any :really decent benchmark without having implementations of both in the :same OS, and being certain that they are optimized the same way. : :Don't the O2s have NVRAM for logging the metadata changes? That'd :make a tremendous difference right away... XFS on an indy R4600/133mhz with ultra-narrow drives on a scsi2-fast controller did better than my K6/233mhz with AHA-2940UW with UW drives for large directory reads and writes. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 18:11:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3C915999 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 18:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA02543; Fri, 21 May 1999 03:11:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA79089; Fri, 21 May 1999 03:11:26 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:11:25 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reiserfs?? Message-ID: <19990521031125.T76043@bitbox.follo.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from unknown@riverstyx.net on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 05:27:50PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 05:27:50PM -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > on the topic of filesystems, is reiserfs coming to freebsd? Seems unlikely. It is GPLed, IIRC... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 18:11:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34ED1585B for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 18:11:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r24.bfm.org [208.18.213.120]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA03169; Thu, 20 May 1999 21:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990520201104.00999960@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:11:04 -0500 To: Dan Moschuk From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990520191755.B99523@trinsec.com> References: <000701bea308$a8f61d00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> <19990520161903.C235@whizkidtech.net> <000701bea308$a8f61d00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 19:17 20-05-1999 -0400, Dan Moschuk wrote: >There is a license created by one of the engineers at SCO called the >[...] >I may be able to dig up a copy if anyone is interested. I'm interested. :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 19:31:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2221314C4A; Thu, 20 May 1999 19:31:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA06123; Thu, 20 May 1999 21:57:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:57:25 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Jamie Bowden , David Kelly , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-Reply-To: <19990521021800.S76043@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 08:08:14PM -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > :> This is great news. My slowest SGI systems have faster metadata updates > > :> than my fastest FreeBSD systems, same disk hardware. > > : > > :Running soft updates? > > > > XFS is -FAST- > > How do you measure the speed of XFS vs FFS? I cannot think of any > really decent benchmark without having implementations of both in the > same OS, and being certain that they are optimized the same way. irix doesn't ship with UFS anymore? > Don't the O2s have NVRAM for logging the metadata changes? That'd > make a tremendous difference right away... Are you aware of any board you can get for PCs that provide something like this? thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 20:12:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9A315872 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:12:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA23916 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:12:16 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Music to code by Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 20:20:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC131544C for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:20:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip90.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.90]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F13370B5; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA07394; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:21:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:21:57 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Eric Hodel Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990520222156.G2129@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu>; from Eric Hodel on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 08:12:16PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? Whatever happens to be in my CD carousel. At this point, it's the big hit soundtrack. The other two CDs are Fatboy Slim's "Praise You" single and Wyclef Jean's "Carnival" CD. Those are three out of about 150 CDs I have. -- Chris Costello A bug in the code is worth two in the documentation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 20:28:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC2B1544C for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:28:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:12805 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:28:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:28:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Eric Hodel Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? Well, for me, it mostly depends on what I am coding. For general purpose thinking-intensive activities, I like something that won't distract me. Enya is good for that, for example. Liberates the mind, ignites the soul :) Other than that, it's whatever I happen to have under my elbow at the time. Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 20:32: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vortex.greycat.com (vortex.greycat.com [207.173.133.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CF65C152B6 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dann@greycat.com) Received: (qmail 2227 invoked from network); 21 May 1999 03:32:02 -0000 Received: from bigphred.greycat.com (HELO greycat.com) (207.173.133.2) by vortex.greycat.com with SMTP; 21 May 1999 03:32:02 -0000 Message-ID: <3744D3BF.D93D5EB3@greycat.com> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:32:15 -0700 From: Dann Lunsford Organization: You're kidding, right? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-BETA i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by References: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Hodel wrote: > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > Heh. At the risk of being labeled an Old Fart, I like the Moody Blues, Vangellis, and Karlheinz Stockhausen. Not to mention "Uncle Ernie's Used Computers Babbage's Birthday Bargain Bash" :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 20:33:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14DB152B6 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:33:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA19351; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:58:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:58:19 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Eric Hodel Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? Heavy Metal + Rock and Roll. Alice in Chains, Pantera, Fear Factory, Led Zeppelin. then again, I enjoy assembler coding... *shrug* -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 20:39:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF88152B6 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpiazza@home.net) Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (localhost.norn.ca.eu.org [127.0.0.1]) by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52C01446; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Content-Length: 423 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: Chris Piazza From: Chris Piazza To: Eric Hodel Subject: RE: Music to code by Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-May-99 Eric Hodel wrote: > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > I definitely have to go with more downtempo type things... usually. Mostly ambient/IDM type stuff like The Orb, Brian Eno, etc. When I'm trying to read other people's code, OTOH, I prefer hard and fast 8^). --- Chris Piazza Abbotsford, BC, Canada cpiazza@home.net finger norn@norn.ca.eu.org for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 20:55:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r3.bfm.org [208.18.213.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F4E14C08 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:55:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id WAA00299; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:55:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:55:16 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Message-ID: <19990520225516.E255@whizkidtech.net> References: <19990520161903.C235@whizkidtech.net> <000701bea308$a8f61d00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <000701bea308$a8f61d00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:35:20PM -0700 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:35:20PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > In my experience, most authors of GPL'd code don't understand the GPL > principles. The more prominent authors are exceptions. You got a point there. :-) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 20:59:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (CJC26.RESNET.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.234.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533DA14C08 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:59:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA10135; Fri, 21 May 1999 00:00:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 04:00:27 +0000 (GMT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu To: Eric Hodel Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? Cabaret Voltaire, Einsturzende Neubauten, SPK, etc. Negativland when I'm coding in Perl :) Cliff Crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- i l i k e o a t m e a l )O( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 21:12:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A9614ECA for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 21:12:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-74-115.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.74.115]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12971; Fri, 21 May 1999 00:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA02143; Fri, 21 May 1999 00:14:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199905210414.AAA02143@bellsouth.net> To: Eric Hodel Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Music to code by In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 May 1999 20:12:16 PDT." <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:14:46 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pinkfloydledzeppelinzztopericclaptonjimihendrixsantanabtoemersonlakeand palmeryesjethrotullynyrskynyrdrdfleetwoodmacthinlizzyqueensrychekansas foreignerthebeatlessublimequeengreendayzztopstevierayvaughnbostonbadcompany ELVIS (i'm from mississippi) davidbowierollingstonessupertrampjourneythebandcrosbystillsnashandyoung drivingandcryingvanhalenjeffersonairplanestarshipthegratefuldeadaretha franklinjimcrocelennykravitzjonimitchellalicecooperstyxthesexpistolsdire straightsstevewinwoodcream that's all my mp3's anyway. I need more :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 21:31:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r29.bfm.org [208.18.213.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52D5215316 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 21:31:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA00305; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:31:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:31:07 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Message-ID: <19990520233107.F255@whizkidtech.net> References: <19990520155519.B235@whizkidtech.net> <000501bea308$a5fd9d80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <000501bea308$a5fd9d80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:35:15PM -0700 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:35:15PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: >> The copyright law does give the author the right to give up all >> his rights. >> Many an author has to ask his publisher for the permission to have his own >> work published somewhere else. > > Yes, but he would have to give them to someone else, by contract. Or release them by a formal statement. If you state in your code: "This code is in public domain" and do not understand the exact legal meaning of "public domain" you may be up for some surprises. If you state in your license that it is meant to prevent "anyone" from doing certain things (as it does in GPL), you too may be up for a surprise. Anyone includes yourself. That statement is not as legally obvious as the public domain one, but I bet that is deliberate. If it were too obvious, people would think twice about using GPL. >> The wording of the GPL does allow for the possible interpretation that the >> author has given up all his rights to his work. Indeed, it could be argued >> that the author has transfered all his rights to FSF. It could >> also be argued >> that he did not. But who wants to spend time in court arguing when you can >> use clear wording, such as offered by the artistic license. > > I see no indiciation that the FSF is a party to the GPL, assuming one > simply places ones work under it. I could definitely see the other > interpretation if one assignes ones code to the FSF. Yes, GPL is very carefully worded to leave out gray area where it is to FSF advantage, while using clear language where that is to their advantage. Remember, this whole discussion started when Jordan said he respected Stallman for his intelligence and I replied he should not. Now you see what I was talking about. :-) >> When I write free software, I want it to be free for anyone to >> *use*, not for >> anyone to *sell*. I might allow them to sell it, but in that case >> I want to >> see some of that money. > > When I write free software, I want it to be free for anybody to use or > sell. I want it to increase the quality and decrease the cost of software. And that's fine. We do not need to have the same goals. In either case, GPL is not for us. :-) > If I wanted to see some money, I wouldn't write free software. Yes, I know what you mean. I do not do it for money either. The only difference between us is you do not mind if someone sells your software while I do. > I have serious problems with the BSD license. My biggest one is that it > requires you to foist a disclaimer on your customer. Does it? All it asks is that you give credit to the original author for his part of the work, and that you indemnify him for his work. > This makes it intolerable for companies like mine who take responsibility for > their software. You can still take full responsibility for your own work. You are just asked not to sue the original author (although nothing can actually stop you from suing him :). > I wish the BSD license allowed you two options: > > 1) You indemnify the author and make no representations about the original > author, or > > 2) You make your customers indemnify the author, and you accurately > credit/blame the code on the original author. > > However, the BSD license only permits the second option. Hmmm... The way I read it, you can do either. >> And it does allow you to make money supporting the product. You >> cannot just >> sell it as if you owned it. That has nothing to do with warm >> fuzzy feelings. > > Nor can you make, distribute, and sell derived works without having to > force your customers to indemnify the original author(s). You are prohibited > from taking responsibility for your own software. No, you are prohibited from blaming the original author. You can allow others to blame you, if that's what you want. >> My point is that the artistic license is a good alternative to GPL, not to >> BSD license. > > Anything is a good alternative to the GPL. Unfortunately, even the artistic > license prevents you from taking responsibility for your own compiled/linked > code. I disagree. Again, it prevents you from putting blame on the original author. But you can take responsibility. And if you happen to be the original author, and want the responsibility, just delete that clause. No one is saying you must use the artistic license exactly as it is written or not use it at all. Or the BSD license for that matter. For what it's worth, FreeBSD deleted two clauses from the BSD license (the ones that force you to mention the author in all advertising). Of course, that only happened with original FreeBSD code, not with the code taken from the old BSD. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 21:39: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D6A15522 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 21:39:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03348; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:38:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990520223624.04674b60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:37:28 -0600 To: Dann Lunsford , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3744D3BF.D93D5EB3@greycat.com> References: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kristoph Klover is about to come out with a new computer comedy tape with more Steve Savitzky computer songs. Should be fun. --Brett Glass At 08:32 PM 5/20/99 -0700, Dann Lunsford wrote: >Eric Hodel wrote: > > > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > > > >Heh. At the risk of being labeled an Old Fart, I like the Moody Blues, >Vangellis, and Karlheinz Stockhausen. Not to mention "Uncle Ernie's >Used Computers Babbage's Birthday Bargain Bash" :-) > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 21:39:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F115314C4F for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 21:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03351; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:38:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990520223741.0468d6a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:37:57 -0600 To: Eric Hodel , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Dr. Demento Show. ;-) --Brett Glass At 08:12 PM 5/20/99 -0700, Eric Hodel wrote: >Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > >-- >Eric Hodel >hodeleri@seattleu.edu > >"If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." > -- A. L. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 21:59:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030F214CFE for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 21:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r38.bfm.org [208.18.213.134]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id AAA10655; Fri, 21 May 1999 00:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990520235835.0096b250@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:58:35 -0500 To: Eric Hodel , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:12 20-05-1999 -0700, Eric Hodel wrote: >Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? This algo' rythm jams for me: switch (music()) { case NULL: code(); break; case COUNTRY: case RAP: run(away); /* optimize for speed */ break; default: listen(); } Adam P.S. I understand the new ANSI C will contain the following in : #define CRAP (COUNTRY | RAP) /* * No offense intended to any (COUNTRY | RAP) fans * I just personally do not care for either. */ --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 22: 6: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9143B158F1 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03713; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:05:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990520230135.04686230@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:05:12 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Eric Hodel , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990520235835.0096b250@mail.bfm.org> References: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How about the "Programmer's Cheer?" Start: shl ax,1 ; Shift to the left! shr ax,1 ; Shift to the right! pop ax ; Pop up push ax ; Push down db 0,0,0 ; Byte, byte, byte! jmp Start ; (Repeat ad nauseam) --Brett Glass At 11:58 PM 5/20/99 -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >This algo' rythm jams for me: > >switch (music()) { >case NULL: > code(); > break; >case COUNTRY: >case RAP: > run(away); /* optimize for speed */ > break; >default: > listen(); >} > >Adam > >P.S. I understand the new ANSI C will contain the following in : > >#define CRAP (COUNTRY | RAP) > >/* > * No offense intended to any (COUNTRY | RAP) fans > * I just personally do not care for either. > */ >--- >Want to design your own web counter? >Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 22:12: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop04.iname.net (pop04.iname.net [165.251.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3AB1590F for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:11:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r38.bfm.org [208.18.213.134]) by pop04.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id BAA28491; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990521001120.0098bd20@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:11:20 -0500 To: Brett Glass , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990520230135.04686230@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.19990520235835.0096b250@mail.bfm.org> <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:05 20-05-1999 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >How about the "Programmer's Cheer?" > >Start: > shl ax,1 ; Shift to the left! > shr ax,1 ; Shift to the right! > pop ax ; Pop up > push ax ; Push down > db 0,0,0 ; Byte, byte, byte! > jmp Start ; (Repeat ad nauseam) case that: dance(); :-) --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 22:12:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (CJC26.RESNET.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.234.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7A11590F for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA10249; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:13:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 05:13:02 +0000 (GMT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Eric Hodel , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990520235835.0096b250@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You forgot to put a break statement in your default: block. What if someone comes along later on and adds another case statement after the default one? Chaos will ensue! On Thu, 20 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 20:12 20-05-1999 -0700, Eric Hodel wrote: > >Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > This algo' rythm jams for me: > > switch (music()) { > case NULL: > code(); > break; > case COUNTRY: > case RAP: > run(away); /* optimize for speed */ > break; > default: > listen(); > } > > Adam > > P.S. I understand the new ANSI C will contain the following in : > > #define CRAP (COUNTRY | RAP) > > /* > * No offense intended to any (COUNTRY | RAP) fans > * I just personally do not care for either. > */ Cliff Crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- i l i k e o a t m e a l )O( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 22:15:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 96D7114C4A for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 10754 invoked by uid 1001); 21 May 1999 05:15:18 -0000 Date: 20 May 1999 22:15:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:15:18 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: Eric Hodel Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990520221518.A10685@dub.net> References: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu>; from Eric Hodel on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 08:12:16PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 08:12:16PM -0700, Eric Hodel wrote: > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? I usually go with a mix of NIN and the good ole' mpg123 -z * :-) -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 22:20:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14F8114C4A for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r38.bfm.org [208.18.213.134]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id BAA18059; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990521001936.0098e830@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:19:36 -0500 To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Music to code by Cc: Eric Hodel , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990520235835.0096b250@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:13 21-05-1999 +0000, a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality wrote: >You forgot to put a break statement in your default: block. What if >someone comes along later on and adds another case statement after >the default one? Chaos will ensue! What if he wants to /* fall through */ ? I cannot predict what someone else will do. Besides, what are the odds of someone else having the same musical preferences? Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 22:41:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp (rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp [133.34.17.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0BB14D03 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 22:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tanimura@naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp) Received: from rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp (8.9.1a/3.7W-Naklab-2.1-19981120) with ESMTP id OAA26859; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:40:36 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199905210540.OAA26859@rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp> To: hodeleri@seattleu.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Seigo Tanimura Subject: Re: Music to code by From: Seigo Tanimura In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 20 May 1999 20:12:16 -0700" References: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.34.1 / Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:40:36 +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 May 1999 20:12:16 -0700, Eric Hodel said: hodeleri> Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? On my FreeBSD work, a classic one would come to my mind. On my research work(speech recongition), I have to listen to the sample speech track, so no music... Seigo TANIMURA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 23: 2:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051nc7.san.rr.com (dt055nc1.san.rr.com [24.30.153.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD34214FFA; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Received: from dal.net (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051nc7.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15201; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:02:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Message-ID: <3744F6F5.90267DDD@dal.net> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:02:29 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI giving out old info? References: <19990517205015.C15030@holly.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Costello wrote: > > I read some interesting things at the URL below -- perhaps > it's out of date. It says that there are no Front Page > extensions, no email support, and no 'patch server' (does > cvsup*.freebsd.org count?). Please restrict these kinds of posts to -advocacy where they belong. Thanks Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** Nominated for quote of the year is the statement made by Representative Dick Armey (Texas), who when asked if he were in the President's place, would he resign, responded: "If I were in the President's place I would not get a chance to resign. I would be lying in a pool of my own blood hearing Mrs. Armey standing over me saying, 'How do I reload this damn thing?'" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 23:51:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (Thingol.KryptoKom.DE [194.245.91.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1E814DFD for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:51:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eT@post.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA00637 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:49:24 +0200 Received: from cirdan.kryptokom.de by KryptoWall via smtpp (Version 1.2.0) id kwa00632; Fri May 21 10:49:05 1999 Received: from fwd.kryptokom.de ([192.168.6.40]) by Cirdan.KryptoKom.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24614 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:53:38 +0200 Received: from post.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fwd.kryptokom.de (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA03023 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:55:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eT@post.com) Message-ID: <37450349.4F038064@post.com> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:55:05 +0200 From: Etienne de Bruin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: FreeBSD NetCenter Channel anyone? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, how about one of the FreeBSD sites starting up a channel on NetCenter? eT -- Etienne de Bruin; eT@post.com visit eT on the web: http://listen.to/eT (last update: 12 Mar 1999) "god is there, there's no denying, supernatural" - dc talk, supernatural. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 23:51:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699AB14DFD for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id IAA25532; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:51:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21073; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:51:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:51:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: David Kelly Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-Reply-To: <199905202012.PAA34850@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is great news. My slowest SGI systems have faster metadata updates > than my fastest FreeBSD systems, same disk hardware. Does this include softupdates? > No details yet as to the license terms. Hope they are open enough for it "As set forth by the Open Source Initiative". They approve of the BSD licence, so maybe we could convince SGI to use that, rather than the GPL? - marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 23:55:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B6E1586F; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:55:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id IAA26613; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:55:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21088; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:55:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:55:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Eivind Eklund , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL alternatives In-Reply-To: <19990520155519.B235@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The copyright law does give the author the right to give up all his rights. > Many an author has to ask his publisher for the permission to have his own > work published somewhere else. Norwegian copyright law does not permit you to do this, therefore any licence which specifically resigns all rights is void in Norway, I would suspect. This law is, to the best of my knowledge, based on the Berne Convention, which has been signed by many countries around the world. - marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 20 23:57: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B921586F for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 23:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id IAA27115; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:57:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21102; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:57:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:57:04 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-Reply-To: <199905202101.QAA79579@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Another good test of speed was "rm -rf /usr/ports". The O2 could do it > so fast it was frightening. This should take seconds, at most, with softupdates? - marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 0: 7:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A896A15926 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 00:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id JAA29790; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:07:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21157; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:07:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:07:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Eric Hodel Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? I use a three-CD player, and the following is a good example of a (to my ears and mind) sensible set: 'Enthroned, Darkness Triumphant' by Dimmu Borgir (Nuclear Blast) 'October Rust' by Type O Negative (Roadrunner) 'Broken' by Nine Inch Nails (?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 0:10:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1E31586F for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 00:10:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id JAA00749; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:10:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21172; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:10:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:10:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Eric Hodel Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh, and I forgot, in my previous post: "Velvet Darkness They Fear" by Theatre of Tragedy. It's so good I sometimes drop the CD-change function, and just put that one disc on repeat. Also, "Floodland", or really any CD by The Sisters of Mercy will do. --- Marius Bendiksen, ScanCall AS On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > -- > Eric Hodel > hodeleri@seattleu.edu > > "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." > -- A. L. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 0:46: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11D715938; Fri, 21 May 1999 00:46:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA78564; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:45:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Brett Glass Cc: Eivind Eklund , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! References: <4.2.0.37.19990519093547.04100900@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 May 1999 09:45:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Wed, 19 May 1999 09:36:19 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > Yet another project whose code is unthinkingly GPLed. Fuck off. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 0:49:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4F815938 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 00:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA78573; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:49:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Chuck Robey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: c9x (new ANSI C) References: <199905200556.BAA54009@bellsouth.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 May 1999 09:49:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: W Gerald Hicks's message of "Thu, 20 May 1999 01:56:11 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org W Gerald Hicks writes: > [...] It is as if mathematicians > would start with axioms. You do not start with axioms - you start with proofs. > Only when you have found a bunch of related proofs, can you come up with > axioms. You end with axioms. You start with axioms, and use proofs to derive theorems from them. Alternatively, you start with theorems and use backward proof construction to reduce them to axioms or previously proven lemmas or theorems. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 0:54:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F3A15938 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 00:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA78587; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:54:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Eric Hodel Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by References: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 May 1999 09:54:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: Eric Hodel's message of "Thu, 20 May 1999 20:12:16 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Hodel writes: > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? These days: The Doors, Rammstein, Pink Floyd, Orbital, and various assorted OSTs: Escape From LA, Apocalypse Now, Jurassic Park, Crimson Tide, Star Wars, The Rock, Independence Day. Sometimes also Vangelis, Jarre or Oldfield (particularly the latter's Songs Of Distand Earth and Tubular Bells II) I've also been known to listen to Suzanne Vega for days on end (I have eight autographed SV albums, including Sessions on West 54th, Tried & True and Tom's Album). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 1: 3:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc1-10.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D09114D61 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA46943; Fri, 21 May 1999 18:02:14 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:02:11 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: Etienne de Bruin Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD NetCenter Channel anyone? Message-ID: <19990521180211.A46899@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net References: <37450349.4F038064@post.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <37450349.4F038064@post.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 May 1999 at 08:55:05 +0200, Etienne de Bruin wrote: > Hey, how about one of the FreeBSD sites starting up a channel on > NetCenter? Sounds good. I'd be interested in getting The FreeBSD 'zine set up with one.. one question.. I just took a quick poke around Netscape's site.. how does one go about starting a NetCenter channel? -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ - jim@advocacy.FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 1: 8:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (Thingol.KryptoKom.DE [194.245.91.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F237314D61 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eT@post.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA02801; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:05:27 +0200 Received: from cirdan.kryptokom.de by KryptoWall via smtpp (Version 1.2.0) id kwa02794; Fri May 21 12:05:24 1999 Received: from fwd.kryptokom.de ([192.168.6.40]) by Cirdan.KryptoKom.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26262; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:09:58 +0200 Received: from post.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fwd.kryptokom.de (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA03105; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:11:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eT@post.com) Message-ID: <3745152D.7FCF299B@post.com> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:11:25 +0200 From: Etienne de Bruin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jim@blues.ghis.net Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD NetCenter Channel anyone? References: <37450349.4F038064@post.com> <19990521180211.A46899@blues.ghis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jim Mock wrote: > Sounds good. I'd be interested in getting The FreeBSD 'zine set up > with one.. one question.. I just took a quick poke around Netscape's > site.. how does one go about starting a NetCenter channel? Hi Jim ... I'd be interested in helping if you like :) Anyways ... go to 'Add Channel' from your 'My Netscape' page and there is a link to 'Create your own channel'. I played around with this for a while but geocities didn't like the channel page format so i wasn't able to upload it to geocities. Regards eT -- Etienne de Bruin; eT@post.com visit eT on the web: http://listen.to/eT (last update: 12 Mar 1999) "god is there, there's no denying, supernatural" - dc talk, supernatural. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 1:42:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02DA14D61 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24521; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:49:20 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:49:19 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Point of interest... reiserfs can do recursive deletes faster than any filesystem I'm aware of. Beats ext2 by a factor of about 1000. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Fri, 21 May 1999, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > Another good test of speed was "rm -rf /usr/ports". The O2 could do it > > so fast it was frightening. > > This should take seconds, at most, with softupdates? > > - marius > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 1:51:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9587E14D61 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24650; Fri, 21 May 1999 01:57:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:57:31 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Eric Hodel , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org When I coded assembly I used to listen to Pantera, Metallica, White Zombie, etc, but now I'm a Perl coder and I've switched mostly to Celtic music. Connection? Hmm... --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Thu, 20 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > Heavy Metal + Rock and Roll. > > Alice in Chains, Pantera, Fear Factory, Led Zeppelin. > > then again, I enjoy assembler coding... *shrug* > > -Alfred > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 2:20:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F9515906 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 02:20:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:18:09 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: adam@whizkidtech.net, davids@webmaster.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: GPL alternatives Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:18:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: G. Adam Stanislav [mailto:adam@whizkidtech.net] > Sent: 21 May 1999 05:31 > To: David Schwartz > Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: GPL alternatives > > > On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:35:15PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > >> The copyright law does give the author the right to give up all > >> his rights. > >> Many an author has to ask his publisher for the permission > to have his own > >> work published somewhere else. > > > > Yes, but he would have to give them to someone else, by > contract. > > Or release them by a formal statement. If you state in your > code: "This code > is in public domain" and do not understand the exact legal meaning of > "public domain" you may be up for some surprises. > > If you state in your license that it is meant to prevent > "anyone" from doing > certain things (as it does in GPL), you too may be up for a > surprise. Anyone > includes yourself. That statement is not as legally obvious > as the public > domain one, but I bet that is deliberate. If it were too > obvious, people would > think twice about using GPL. This just isn't the way copyright works, you're confusing the issue of copyright and licensing. If I create something then I own the Copyright. That can't be changed in any way regardless of what license I release the work under. Also, the license only applies to that particular "release" of the work, I'm free to give the work to some other body under a different license. There is also the situation where you sign over the copyright. This is a very different thing which transfers ownership of your work. Most publishers require authors to sign over the copyright to them which is why the author requires the publishers permission to publish elsewhere. It's also written into most softare developers contracts (it's implicit if you're an employee) that any work you do belongs to the body paying for it. You can sign over the copyright to the FSF but ut is not required in order to use the GPL and use of the GPL does not imply that you have. Any talk about the GPL transferring ownership of the work is total FUD and there are prominent examples of work licensed under the GPL in parallel with other licenses, Ghostscript and Perl just off the top of my head. The GPL actually has a clause which says "it is not the intention of this section to claim rights or contest your rights to work written entirely by you" > > >> The wording of the GPL does allow for the possible > interpretation that the > >> author has given up all his rights to his work. Indeed, it > could be argued > >> that the author has transfered all his rights to FSF. It could > >> also be argued > >> that he did not. But who wants to spend time in court > arguing when you can > >> use clear wording, such as offered by the artistic license. > > > > I see no indiciation that the FSF is a party to the > GPL, assuming one > > simply places ones work under it. I could definitely see the other > > interpretation if one assignes ones code to the FSF. > > Yes, GPL is very carefully worded to leave out gray area > where it is to FSF > advantage, while using clear language where that is to their > advantage. > Remember, this whole discussion started when Jordan said he > respected Stallman > for his intelligence and I replied he should not. Now you see > what I was talking > about. :-) There's no hidden clause in the GPL that hands over ownership to the FSF, you're just being paranoid. > >> When I write free software, I want it to be free for anyone to > >> *use*, not for > >> anyone to *sell*. I might allow them to sell it, but in that case > >> I want to > >> see some of that money. > > > > When I write free software, I want it to be free for > anybody to use or > > sell. I want it to increase the quality and decrease the > cost of software. > > And that's fine. We do not need to have the same goals. In > either case, GPL is > not for us. :-) > > > If I wanted to see some money, I wouldn't write free software. > > Yes, I know what you mean. I do not do it for money either. > The only difference > between us is you do not mind if someone sells your software > while I do. If you don't want people selling your software then you need to release it under a much more restrictive license than either the GPL or BSD license. There is nothing in the BSD license that prevents me from taking your work and selling it for money. All it prevents me from doing is claiming that I wrote it. It has the most minimal restrictions that it's possible to put on a license i.e. it retains copyright by the author but allows total freedom of use by anyone for any purpose, inclusive of selling it as a rebadged product for lots of money. There's no requirement that I provide value-add, I can just sell your product for my own personal gain. If you don't like that then the BSD license isn't for you. Paul Richards To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 3:32:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CC815196 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 03:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id MAA29478 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:32:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10klnW-000WyZC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Fri, 21 May 1999 11:40:58 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? Date: 21 May 1999 11:40:55 +0200 Message-ID: <7i39n7$dkn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <199905202050.QAA16666@gatekeeper.itribe.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For those of us who don't use Irix systems, much less administrate any, could somebody sum up what's so remarkable about XFS? Jamie Bowden wrote: > XFS is -FAST- Anything else? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de 100+ SF Book Reviews: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 3:33:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54EA215196 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 03:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id MAA29500 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:33:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10klpj-000WyZC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Fri, 21 May 1999 11:43:15 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: reiserfs?? Date: 21 May 1999 11:43:12 +0200 Message-ID: <7i39rg$dln$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org wrote: > on the topic of filesystems, is reiserfs coming to freebsd? Is it coming to Linux? The Linux people have talked for *years* now about an extended ext2fs, ext3fs, reiserfs, etc. being available real soon now, but nothing has happened yet. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de 100+ SF Book Reviews: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 4:35:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B556114FF7 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 04:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA23862; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:35:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA85489; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:35:18 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:35:18 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jamie Bowden , David Kelly , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? Message-ID: <19990521133518.X76043@bitbox.follo.net> References: <19990521021800.S76043@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 09:57:25PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 09:57:25PM -0500, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On Fri, 21 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: >> On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 08:08:14PM -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: >>> On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: >>>>> This is great news. My slowest SGI systems have faster metadata updates >>>>> than my fastest FreeBSD systems, same disk hardware. >>>> >>>> Running soft updates? >>> >>> XFS is -FAST- >> >> How do you measure the speed of XFS vs FFS? I cannot think of any >> really decent benchmark without having implementations of both in the >> same OS, and being certain that they are optimized the same way. > > irix doesn't ship with UFS anymore? Only without soft updates. As I said, you need to be certain of how they are optimized... > > Don't the O2s have NVRAM for logging the metadata changes? That'd > > make a tremendous difference right away... > > Are you aware of any board you can get for PCs that provide something > like this? "Maybe." I've tried to contact some companies that advertise boards like this, but have been unable to get a price quote without stating exactly what I am doing with it and signing some sort of NDA (which I refused), which lead me to suspect it is vapourware. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 4:39:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E7E14FF7 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 04:39:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:39:25 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk ([10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id L1BALPRC; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:31:39 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 10knhm-000CNE-00; Fri, 21 May 1999 12:43:10 +0100 To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? X-Mailer: nmh-1.0 X-Colour: Green Organization: Palmer & Harvey McLane In-Reply-To: Christian Weisgerber's message of "21 May 1999 11:40:55 +0200" <7i39n7$dkn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:43:10 +0100 From: Dom Mitchell Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 May 1999, Christian Weisgerber proclaimed: > For those of us who don't use Irix systems, much less administrate any, > could somebody sum up what's so remarkable about XFS? > > Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > XFS is -FAST- > > Anything else? Basically, it's a transactional logging filesystem (fast recovery, fast metadata updates), like LFS was going to be. It also has Btree based directories (as opposed to FFS's linear directories) which can make things quicker. Many other filesystems also have these attributes. For example HPFS (OS2) and NTFS (WinNT). However, XFS appears to be well done and designed with Unix in mind. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "Value of 2 may go down as well as up" -- FORTRAN programmers manual -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 5:13:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35361527F; Fri, 21 May 1999 05:13:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA24582; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:13:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA85626; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:13:09 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:13:09 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: CONDOR Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: secure deletion Message-ID: <19990521141308.A85583@bitbox.follo.net> References: <01BEA2F3.8E3149A0.condor@inreach.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <01BEA2F3.8E3149A0.condor@inreach.com>; from CONDOR on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 06:51:19PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moving to -chat]. On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 06:51:19PM -0700, CONDOR wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Avalon Books [SMTP:avalon@advicom.net] > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 12:52 > To: Dan Langille > Cc: Darren Reed; freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: secure deletion > > > It seems a bit extreme, but I will admit it *is* a secure erase > method. That's military thinking for you... > > [CONDOR] I saw a good 'government approved CD eraser' at a convention one time. > > -A guy had two heat warped CDs in a toaster.. You want to run them through a microwave oven first. This will break the recording material (not the plastic) into approx 1 inch long areas, using a neat pattern of lightning to do it (I'm not kidding). No prize but passing your physics class if you can say why it goes to approx an inch long pieces, and all the effects then stop. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 6: 7:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA66414F46; Fri, 21 May 1999 06:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18367.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.47]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09802; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:10:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA72138; Fri, 21 May 1999 09:09:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:09:04 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Eivind Eklund Cc: CONDOR , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: secure deletion Message-ID: <19990521090904.A72045@mAd> References: <01BEA2F3.8E3149A0.condor@inreach.com> <19990521141308.A85583@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990521141308.A85583@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Fri, May 21, 1999 at 02:13:09PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 02:13:09PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > No prize but passing your physics class if you can say why it goes to > approx an inch long pieces, and all the effects then stop. Hmm... one inch fits nicely inside the microwave wavelength. I'd guess an inch corresponds to about half a wavelength. That's a pretty lame guess, though. I suppose I should try it first and see what exactly you mean by "a neat pattern of lightening." :-) [Hmmm... That would give a wavelength of 5cm, but a quick websearch tells me the waves in question should be 12 cm. Oh well. :-] One inch does roughly correspond to 1/4 wavelength. Hm. I get stuck with 2 physics courses next year. You have little idea how much me and 99% of the rest of my class would like to avoid those. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 6:39:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3ED15299; Fri, 21 May 1999 06:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:41:04 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C1100276179613@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: 'Eivind Eklund' , CONDOR Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: RE: secure deletion Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:36:11 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Eivind Eklund [SMTP:eivind@FreeBSD.org] > Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 2:13 PM > To: CONDOR > Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org > Subject: Re: secure deletion > > No prize but passing your physics class if you can say why it goes to > approx an inch long pieces, and all the effects then stop. > [ML] Could that have something to do with the lambda/2 of the microwave radiation used? > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 7: 6: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch (unknown [62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D40AE14C0C for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 07:06:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 4117 invoked from network); 21 May 1999 14:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.128.41) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 21 May 1999 14:06:02 -0000 Message-ID: <37456844.3EE57808@pipeline.ch> Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:05:56 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dom Mitchell Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dom Mitchell wrote: > > On 21 May 1999, Christian Weisgerber proclaimed: > > For those of us who don't use Irix systems, much less administrate any, > > could somebody sum up what's so remarkable about XFS? > > > > Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > > > XFS is -FAST- > > > > Anything else? > > Basically, it's a transactional logging filesystem (fast recovery, fast > metadata updates), like LFS was going to be. It also has Btree based > directories (as opposed to FFS's linear directories) which can make > things quicker. > > Many other filesystems also have these attributes. For example HPFS > (OS2) and NTFS (WinNT). However, XFS appears to be well done and > designed with Unix in mind. Have a look at http://www.sgi.com/products/remanufactured/challenge/ti_xfs.html and http://www.sgi.com/Technology/xfs-whitepaper.html -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 8: 8:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5508614D2F for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 08:08:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 548404028; Fri, 21 May 1999 11:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 49C769A56; Fri, 21 May 1999 11:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:08:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-Reply-To: <199905210236.WAA02324@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: :irix doesn't ship with UFS anymore? EFS is still in Irix, and you can still build a machine totally EFS if you want. But why would you want to? I ran a news server on an Indy R4600/133 with 128MB of RAM. Disk speed was a bigger factor than just about anything else. XFS doesn't give you raw disk speed access, but it's damn close, and I could pull the plug on the machine and not worry about spending hours waiting to fsck the spool. I may have lost an article or two, but the fs itself was clean and ready to roll. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 10:26:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F81714E67 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA32162; Fri, 21 May 1999 10:33:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:33:51 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reiserfs?? In-Reply-To: <7i39rg$dln$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org AFAIK, reiserfs is going to be in the 2.3.x series. I'm not trying to pit the two OS against each other, I just really happen to like reiserfs, and I want to see it in FreeBSD. From the homepage: "I personally favor performing a balance of commercial and public works in my life. I have no axe to grind against software that is charged for, and no regrets at making reiserfs freely available to Linux users. This project is GPL'd, but I sell exceptions to the GPL to commercial OS vendors and file server vendors. It is not usable to them without such exceptions, and many of them are wise enough to understand that: " FreeBSD isn't a commercial OS, and I bet Hans would be completely OK with porting it, or giving assistance to anyone who was interested in porting. The URL for reiserfs, in case anyone is interested, is: http://idiom.com/~beverly/reiserfs.html --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On 21 May 1999, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > wrote: > > > on the topic of filesystems, is reiserfs coming to freebsd? > > Is it coming to Linux? > > The Linux people have talked for *years* now about an extended ext2fs, > ext3fs, reiserfs, etc. being available real soon now, but nothing has > happened yet. > > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > 100+ SF Book Reviews: > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 11: 5:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD194159C8 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 11:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 21 May 1999 11:05:36 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Subject: RE: GPL alternatives Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:05:35 -0700 Message-ID: <001701bea3b4$864bfc00$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <19990520233107.F255@whizkidtech.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. It is not enough that you indemnify the author. You must force your customers to do so as well. > > I have serious problems with the BSD license. My biggest > one is that it > > requires you to foist a disclaimer on your customer. > > Does it? All it asks is that you give credit to the original > author for his > part of the work, and that you indemnify him for his work. No, it is not enough that you indemnify him. Read above. > > This makes it intolerable for companies like mine who take > responsibility for > > their software. > > You can still take full responsibility for your own work. You are > just asked not > to sue the original author (although nothing can actually stop > you from suing > him :). You cannot take responsibility. How can you when you are required to force your customers to indmenify the original author? Suppose you write a library under the BSD license, and I decide to use it in a commercial product. How do I take responsibility when I am required to force my customers to indemnify someone? > > I wish the BSD license allowed you two options: > > > > 1) You indemnify the author and make no representations > about the original > > author, or > > > > 2) You make your customers indemnify the author, and you accurately > > credit/blame the code on the original author. > > > > However, the BSD license only permits the second option. > > Hmmm... The way I read it, you can do either. Read it again. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 13:10:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CAFB14D15 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:10:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25018; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:10:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd024998; Fri May 21 13:10:13 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23828; Fri, 21 May 1999 13:10:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905212010.NAA23828@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The GBC and us To: zen@buddhist.com (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:10:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990519192251.009728a0@mail.bfm.org> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at May 19, 99 07:22:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes, I agree on all that. Yes, I have read Communist Manifesto, I mean GNU > Manifesto (actually I read both), and all that. > > But the question is how does it hurt us? We who program for FreeBSD do not > use GPL. I have personally never released anything under GPL (and I have > been releasing software for a long time, most of the time with source > code), so how is Red Hat's use thereof going to hurt me or you or us in > general? Did the world suffer because of the cold war? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 14:35:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2439815ACC; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12633; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:35:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd012582; Fri May 21 14:35:50 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03301; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:35:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905212135.OAA03301@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? To: ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:35:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: eivind@FreeBSD.ORG, dkelly@hiwaay.net, scrappy@hub.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jamie Bowden" at May 20, 99 08:58:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > XFS on an indy R4600/133mhz with ultra-narrow drives on a scsi2-fast > controller did better than my K6/233mhz with AHA-2940UW with UW drives for > large directory reads and writes. This is not a useful comparison. I believe the MIPS box has a faster and wider memory bus. Since what you are measuring is I/O, not computation speed, the speed of your processor is irrelevent, so long as it is as fast or faster than your bus. Even with a 32 bit PCI controller, the PCI burst transmission rate over a 33MHz I/O bus is going to be your gating factor. People who think that all machines are as I/O limited as PC's, and that you can compare based on processor speed have bought into The Big PC Vendor Lie; I think that a MicroVAX II with a QBUS is likely to be able to put your 233MHz machine to shame for some operations, and uVAXen run at what, 16MHz? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 14:47:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E68F14C18 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:47:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13691; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:47:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd013569; Fri May 21 14:47:14 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04190; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:47:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Music to code by To: unknown@riverstyx.net Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:47:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "unknown@riverstyx.net" at May 21, 99 01:57:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? All of the best coders I have known throughout my career go into semi-autistic funks -- pacing, rocking backward and forward in their chairs, etc. -- while producing their best code. Bill Gates is reputed to rock back and forth in his chair like Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man" when he is concentrating deeply upon some subject (coding, taking money from little old ladies, whatever). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 14:52: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elephant.zo.com (elephant.zo.com [204.139.9.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8DE414D50 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:52:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from geo@snarksoft.com) Received: from 0104 (fwuser@[206.107.212.2]) by elephant.zo.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA26235 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from geo@snarksoft.com) From: geo@snarksoft.com (George Mealer) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:51:57 GMT Organization: Snarksoft Message-ID: <3748d4de.93897867@elephant.zo.com> References: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 May 1999 21:47:06 +0000 (GMT), you wrote: > >Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code >at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone >might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention >is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration >due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best >work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. > >Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when >coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? > >All of the best coders I have known throughout my career go into >semi-autistic funks -- pacing, rocking backward and forward in their >chairs, etc. -- while producing their best code. > >Bill Gates is reputed to rock back and forth in his chair like >Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man" when he is concentrating deeply upon >some subject (coding, taking money from little old ladies, whatever). > =46or me, it depends on the music. My usual tastes run towards very baroque power/death/black metal, but that's generally too complicated and distracting for me to code to. On the other hand, trance, industrial, or even hard rock with predictable boogie rhythms are fine. What's more amusing is that when I really get into it, I type in beat with the music. However, to answer the original question, today's a light coding day so it's Skyclad, Blind Guardian, and Gamma Ray. Geo -- George Mealer geo@snarksoft.com "Let your mind wander...it may never come back." -- Skyclad To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 14:52:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CC714EB6 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:52:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15990; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:52:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd015951; Fri May 21 14:52:44 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04534; Fri, 21 May 1999 14:52:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905212152.OAA04534@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? To: mbendiks@eunet.no (Marius Bendiksen) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:52:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Marius Bendiksen" at May 21, 99 08:57:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Another good test of speed was "rm -rf /usr/ports". The O2 could do it > > so fast it was frightening. > > This should take seconds, at most, with softupdates? No. This is a result of a bredth-first algorithm interacting with a depth first algorithm. The way the ports are created is antithetical to the way rm -r walks the tree. Basically, the prots collection is created incorrectly, and needs to be ficed. This has been discussed before, ad nausium, with no one with commit privileges doing anything but damaging the performance of the generic FFS to try to (unsuccessfully) optimize this particular corner case. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 15: 1:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C6E14E51 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05185; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:07:20 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:07:20 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Terry Lambert Cc: bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I need music to code by... makes me work good. I don't usually listen to the phone, or pay attention to distractions. I like some nice background music to focus my thoughts. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Fri, 21 May 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone > might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention > is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration > due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best > work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. > > Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when > coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? > > All of the best coders I have known throughout my career go into > semi-autistic funks -- pacing, rocking backward and forward in their > chairs, etc. -- while producing their best code. > > Bill Gates is reputed to rock back and forth in his chair like > Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man" when he is concentrating deeply upon > some subject (coding, taking money from little old ladies, whatever). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 15:19:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BFA14E29 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:19:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:19:51 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" , Subject: RE: Music to code by Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:19:51 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bea3d8$0b4f6a90$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I agree completely. I do my best coding after midnight because I have less fear of phone calls and kids disturbing me. If a phone call happens while I'm coding, it can take 30 minutes before I'm truly productive again. DS > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone > might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention > is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration > due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best > work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 15:21:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0403714E29 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:21:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05480; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:28:58 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:28:58 -0700 (PDT) From: To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <000001bea3d8$0b4f6a90$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I guess kids are a pretty big distraction... not one I'm concerned about :-) Damn, it's not likely I'll be having kids any time soon.. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Fri, 21 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > I agree completely. I do my best coding after midnight because I have less > fear of phone calls and kids disturbing me. If a phone call happens while > I'm coding, it can take 30 minutes before I'm truly productive again. > > DS > > > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > > at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone > > might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention > > is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration > > due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best > > work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 15:22: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B1F14E29 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29183; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:21:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd029119; Fri May 21 15:21:49 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06728; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:21:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905212221.PAA06728@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? To: Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk (Dom Mitchell) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:21:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dom Mitchell" at May 21, 99 12:43:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > For those of us who don't use Irix systems, much less administrate any, > > could somebody sum up what's so remarkable about XFS? > > > > Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > > > XFS is -FAST- > > > > Anything else? > > Basically, it's a transactional logging filesystem (fast recovery, fast > metadata updates), like LFS was going to be. It also has Btree based > directories (as opposed to FFS's linear directories) which can make > things quicker. > > Many other filesystems also have these attributes. For example HPFS > (OS2) and NTFS (WinNT). However, XFS appears to be well done and > designed with Unix in mind. HPFS has btree's, and NTFS has logs. XFS is more similar to IBM's JFS; it's a Jouranalling filesystem. The difference between a Journaliing filesystem and a log structured filesystem is that a log structured filesystem logs transactions, followed by a log of a validation timestamp after they have been committed. A log structured FS moves forward in timestamp increments through transaction records. A journalling filesystem journals the intended action, completes the intended action, and logs a timestamp. The difference here is whether you merely log the action, or you journal your intent. This means that a journaling FS is capable of rolling uncommited transactions backward OR forwards, whereas an LFS can only roll transactions backwards. This is less useful if you are, for example, implementing an ATM machine or doing wire transfers. The LFS will degrade to fsync() performance, whereas the JFS will delay the acknowledgement until the time stamp (commit), but will continue to allow concurrent operations. Similarly, LFS's are unable to imply state; however, a JFS can imply state. This allows you to create a transaction, and then create subtransactions which have been committed, but then abort the transaction, decommitting the subtransactions at the same time. The LFS in BSD 4.4, and in NTFS, and (as has been described) in ext3fs, is inferior to a JFS. Without a JFS, you can't export a transactioning interface to user space without introducing synchronization points. Soft updates can be though of as a logging mechanism, where the log is in memory, and the stanchion commits are really implicit in the metadata ordering. You take one hit because you have to impose an order on the operations, potentially pessimizing them, and you take another because of the graph order vs. whether you are bredth or depth first in your operations, if you perform operations in a tree. In practice, soft updates roll back, just like LFS, and they take the same hierarchy order hit for not being btree'ed in one of depth vs. bredth ordering (i.e., the most intentionally pessimal case you can possibly obtain is the deletion of the /usr/ports tree). Like logging, soft updates *could* expose a user level transaction interface (by adding a "user transaction" order dependency) by introducing additional synchronization points, but such an interface would be far less efficient than the concurrent one a JFS can offer. Finally, as to the "fsck time" argument: the fsck of a soft updates volume following a crash can occur in the backgraound, assuming the creash was not the result of a disk or controller failure, since the only thing that is incorrect is that the cylinder group bitmaps indicate allocations that do not, in fact, exist. This could easily be taken care of by running a "CG fixup" process (as opposed to a full fsck) in the background. The algorithm would be to merely traverse each cylinder group by locking access to it, correcting the bitmap, unlocking it, and going on to the next group. Thus the "reboot time" argument goes out the window, and we are left with: (1) additional synchronization points for stanchion events relative to XFS, (2) the inability to currently support a user leve transactioning interface, and (3) the inability to roll completed transactions forward instead of backward, and the resulting synchronization and/or distributed coherency issues arising therefrom. XSF would be neat technology to integrate, but there is additional work that could be done on soft updates as it currently stands (e.g., the most obvious, which Kirk McKusick and Matt Day, Mark Muhlestien, and myself independently arrived at, is "soft read-only", where if there are no pending transactions for two updated cycles, a flag can be set, and the FS superblock could have the clean bit set. Any dirtying operation thereafter would redirty the superblock, unset the soft read-only bit in the incore flags, and allow the operation to complete. The BSDI implementation has this feature, in fact). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 15:33:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1789015133 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:33:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id AAA21882 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 22 May 1999 00:33:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10kwBy-000WyZC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Fri, 21 May 1999 22:46:54 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: secure deletion Date: 21 May 1999 22:46:52 +0200 Message-ID: <7i4gns$i22$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <01BEA2F3.8E3149A0.condor@inreach.com> <19990521141308.A85583@bitbox.follo.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund wrote: > > -A guy had two heat warped CDs in a toaster.. > You want to run them through a microwave oven first. I did that once. The stink of the burned plastic was incredible. No fun. Also, use an oven without light, otherwise the effect is largely lost. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 15:47:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373C115133; Fri, 21 May 1999 15:47:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-125.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.125]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA30806; Fri, 21 May 1999 17:47:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA69965; Fri, 21 May 1999 17:46:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905212246.RAA69965@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Eivind Eklund , Jamie Bowden , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-reply-to: Message from Alfred Perlstein of "Thu, 20 May 1999 21:57:25 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:46:45 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein writes: > irix doesn't ship with UFS anymore? Not for a very long time. Prior to XFS they used something called EFS. In the newest Irix EFS is supposed to be read-only. SGI still ships their CDROM's in EFS format. > > Don't the O2s have NVRAM for logging the metadata changes? That'd > > make a tremendous difference right away... > > Are you aware of any board you can get for PCs that provide something > like this? My ISSR required knowing if anything such as a large NVRAM was in a system. I've been thru a number of SGI systems and ever found more than a modest amount of NVRAM, and that was in a clock chip. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 16:11:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crbowman.erols.com [209.122.47.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83F114DF2 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 16:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from fermion (fermion.ChrisBowman.com [10.0.1.2]) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA07729; Fri, 21 May 1999 19:09:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Message-Id: <199905212309.TAA07729@quark.ChrisBowman.com> X-Sender: crb@quark X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:08:30 -0400 To: Terry Lambert From: "Christopher R. Bowman" Subject: Re: Music to code by Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:47 PM 5/21/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code >at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone >might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention >is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration >due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best >work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. > >Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when >coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? Why do you assume that your inability to concentrate in the face of music or other distractions means that every body else has the same problem? >All of the best coders I have known throughout my career go into >semi-autistic funks -- pacing, rocking backward and forward in their >chairs, etc. -- while producing their best code. Ok, your empirical evidence isn't a horrible basis for judgement, but come on do you really think it is unbiased? I don't find music distracting at all, but the two guys that used to site behind my cubicle at GE and talk about golf all day, well lets just say I have a real hard time screening out human voices having a conversation. >Bill Gates is reputed to rock back and forth in his chair like >Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man" when he is concentrating deeply upon >some subject (coding, taking money from little old ladies, whatever). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com http://www.ChrisBowman.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 16:12:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5709A14DF2; Fri, 21 May 1999 16:12:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-125.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.125]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA08023; Fri, 21 May 1999 18:12:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA72816; Fri, 21 May 1999 18:10:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905212310.SAA72816@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Terry Lambert Cc: ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden), eivind@FreeBSD.ORG, scrappy@hub.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: SGI, XFS and OSS? In-reply-to: Message from Terry Lambert of "Fri, 21 May 1999 21:35:48 -0000." <199905212135.OAA03301@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:10:45 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > XFS on an indy R4600/133mhz with ultra-narrow drives on a scsi2-fast > > controller did better than my K6/233mhz with AHA-2940UW with UW drives for > > large directory reads and writes. > > This is not a useful comparison. Partly I agree. The Indy series are/were the bottom of the line at SGI when they were introduced. When monitored a huge "rm -rf" doesn't consume much CPU time on either Irix or FreeBSD so CPU speed and bus bandwidth don't appear to be limiting factor. If I still had my Irix systems I'd pit a 400 MHz P-II with any SCSI HD and speed against a 64MB Indy R5000 with narrow 10M Byte/Sec SCSI and similar HD. What I have noticed with either FreeBSD or Irix, the disk transactions around 100 to 150 per second. XFS appears to get more milage per transaction, or its caching somewhere. Most likely its caching in its log partition. Others have observed FreeBSD with softupdates sounds like the HD has a heartbeat. I agree. But its nothing like a busy XFS filesystem. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 16:40:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.ghis.net (pppc1-56.eisa.net.au [203.166.251.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB9315024 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 16:40:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@blues.ghis.net) Received: (from jim@localhost) by blues.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA53500; Sat, 22 May 1999 09:40:31 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 09:40:30 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: Etienne de Bruin Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD NetCenter Channel anyone? Message-ID: <19990522094029.A53427@blues.ghis.net> Reply-To: jim@blues.ghis.net References: <37450349.4F038064@post.com> <19990521180211.A46899@blues.ghis.net> <3745152D.7FCF299B@post.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <3745152D.7FCF299B@post.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 May 1999 at 10:11:25 +0200, Etienne de Bruin wrote: > Jim Mock wrote: > > Sounds good. I'd be interested in getting The FreeBSD 'zine set > > up with one.. one question.. I just took a quick poke around > > Netscape's site.. how does one go about starting a NetCenter > > channel? > > Hi Jim ... I'd be interested in helping if you like :) > > Anyways ... go to 'Add Channel' from your 'My Netscape' page and > there is a link to 'Create your own channel'. Ah.. that did it. Thanks for the info.. there's now a FreeBSD 'zine channel for those who are interested. You can add it at http://my.netscape.com/addchannel.tmpl?service=net.674 Thanks Etienne =) -- - Jim Mock - jim@blues.ghis.net - systems administrator - ghis.NET - - work: http://www.ghis.net/ - personal: http://www.ghis.net/~jim/ - - FreeBSD 'zine: http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - - FreeBSD: http://advocacy.freebsd.org/ - jim@advocacy.FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 16:42:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980E715024 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 16:42:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 21 May 1999 16:42:44 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "David Kelly" Cc: Subject: RE: SGI, XFS and OSS? Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:42:44 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bea3e3$9f9db890$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199905212246.RAA69965@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > My ISSR required knowing if anything such as a large NVRAM was in a > system. I've been thru a number of SGI systems and ever found more than > a modest amount of NVRAM, and that was in a clock chip. It's not particularly hard to design a board with a good-sized chunk of battery-backed static RAM. How much of a performance difference would a PCI card with a 4Mb buffer make? But I think that what you really need is the battery-backed RAM to be built into the hard drive controller or between the controller and the drive. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 20:53:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA012151D4 for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 20:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18322.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.2]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11546; Fri, 21 May 1999 23:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA92068; Fri, 21 May 1999 23:54:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:54:48 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Terry Lambert Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990521235447.B91996@mAd> References: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Fri, May 21, 1999 at 09:47:06PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 09:47:06PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone > might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention I agree to some extent, but it's also true that music, because it's predictable and known (well, unless you listen to the radio) can filter out other distractions. There have been a few times where I was ready to take a fist to my hdd (or, at least the PC casing around it) simply for going "click" at unexpected times. Probably wouldn't have heard those clicks with music playing. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 20:54: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from charleston.softhome.net (charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CB12A151CB for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 20:54:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bradley@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 16062 invoked by uid 417); 22 May 1999 04:15:04 -0000 Received: from max2-ppp-4.cyberix.com (HELO BillyJoeBob) (207.8.199.68) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 22 May 1999 04:15:04 -0000 From: "Brad Benson" To: Subject: RE: Music to code by Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:53:01 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bea406$96eb13a0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If I'm in deep contemplation I need quite, but when it comes time for a little music, it's usually some old school punk rock band. examples -- X-Ray Spex, Uk Subs, Stiff Little Fingers. I bet I'm the only guy on this list who still sports a mohawk. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Eric Hodel > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 11:12 PM > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Music to code by > > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > -- > Eric Hodel > hodeleri@seattleu.edu > > "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." > -- A. L. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 21 23:45:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF8A154CF for ; Fri, 21 May 1999 23:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13735; Sat, 22 May 1999 00:45:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990522003715.04610340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 00:45:43 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Music to code by Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:47 PM 5/21/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code >at their best while listening to music? What I *really* can't understand is that some people I know -- including the CEO of a relatively well known software company -- claim that they code best when under the influence of marijuana. Considering the documented effects of marijuana on short term memory, and on the transfer of information from short term to long term memory, I am truly amazed that they can even code adequately under such conditions. (The ONLY activity I could imagine that might benefit from the effects of marijuana is musical performance, where one can't dwell on mistakes or even on what happened a few seconds before. One must reproduce material that has already been committed to long term memory while at the same time living entirely in the moment, reacting instantly to one's fellow musicians.) Different strokes, I suppose.... --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 3: 2:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5BE114C1E for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 03:02:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA84625; Sat, 22 May 1999 12:02:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Terry Lambert Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by References: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 May 1999 12:02:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Fri, 21 May 1999 21:47:06 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > at their best while listening to music? The music helps shut out other distractions, and, depenending on what you listen to, has either a soothing or calming effect or ups your adrenaline. It works just fine, as long as you stay away from music with involved lyrics (opera is particularly bad). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 3:53: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C8F14E7F for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 03:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10l9Of-000EM2-0A; Sat, 22 May 1999 10:52:54 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA01577; Sat, 22 May 1999 11:51:10 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id LAA00385; Sat, 22 May 1999 11:50:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:50:06 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990522115006.C255@marder-1> References: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Fri, May 21, 1999 at 09:47:06PM +0000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 09:47:06PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Bill Gates is reputed to rock back and forth in his chair like > Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man" when he is concentrating deeply upon > some subject (coding, taking money from little old ladies, whatever). > So, to produce buggy, bloated, fatware you rock back and forth in your chair when coding :-) > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 3:58:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C4214E7F for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 03:58:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10l9UT-0003iK-0B; Sat, 22 May 1999 10:58:53 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA01588; Sat, 22 May 1999 11:57:20 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id LAA00406; Sat, 22 May 1999 11:56:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:56:16 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: "Christopher R. Bowman" Cc: Terry Lambert , unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990522115616.D255@marder-1> References: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> <199905212309.TAA07729@quark.ChrisBowman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199905212309.TAA07729@quark.ChrisBowman.com>; from Christopher R. Bowman on Fri, May 21, 1999 at 07:08:30PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 07:08:30PM -0400, Christopher R. Bowman wrote: > > the two guys that used to site behind my cubicle at GE and talk about golf all > day, well lets just say I have a real hard time screening out human voices > having a conversation. > There was a theory many years ago that listening to white noise was the way to block out all ambient sound and help you to maximize your concentration and focus on the task in hand. There were even audio cassettes containing nothing but 90 minutes of white noise. -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 4:16:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop04.iname.net (pop04.iname.net [165.251.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C9214C96 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 04:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r5.bfm.org [208.18.213.101]) by pop04.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id HAA18978; Sat, 22 May 1999 07:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990522055009.00978430@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 05:50:09 -0500 To: Marius Bendiksen From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: GPL alternatives Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990520155519.B235@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:55 21-05-1999 +0200, Marius Bendiksen wrote: >> The copyright law does give the author the right to give up all his rights. >> Many an author has to ask his publisher for the permission to have his own >> work published somewhere else. > >Norwegian copyright law does not permit you to do this, therefore any >licence which specifically resigns all rights is void in Norway, I >would suspect. Interesting. Would be nice if that were the case in the US. But here, anything is for sale, including author's rights, and traditionally publishers have tried to get as many of them as they can get from authors. And since there are many more authors than publishers, authors (especially new ones) are generally afraid to say no out of fear that the publisher will call off the whole deal. This law is, to the best of my knowledge, based on the >Berne Convention, which has been signed by many countries around the >world. The US has signed it, too. So, the convention probably did not ban such practice. It is the law of your country that does. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.20 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 4:16:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop04.iname.net (pop04.iname.net [165.251.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473EE14E9A for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 04:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r5.bfm.org [208.18.213.101]) by pop04.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id HAA18982; Sat, 22 May 1999 07:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990522061609.00969c10@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 06:16:09 -0500 To: paul@originative.co.uk From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: GPL alternatives Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:18 21-05-1999 +0100, paul@originative.co.uk wrote: >There is also the situation where you sign over the copyright. This is a >very different thing which transfers ownership of your work. Most publishers >require authors to sign over the copyright to them which is why the author >requires the publishers permission to publish elsewhere. That's what I said. You can assign your rights to someone else. >There's no hidden clause in the GPL that hands over ownership to the FSF, >you're just being paranoid. Nope, not paranoid. It's the lawyer in me talking. I said it *could* be interpreted certain way. I also said such an interpretation was not likely to prevail in court, but you never know. The fact that Perl and other software is licensed under both GPL and a different license is irrelevant from legal standpoint. Perl is not a court of law. AFAIK, GPL has never been contested in a court of law. Therefore, if someone sued Larry Wall for the double licensing, we simply cannot know how it would turn out. I am simply talking about POSSIBILITIES. I always used the verb *can* to make that clear. Anyway, this discussion has gone much farther than I care for. I am not trying to fight a war, nor am I trying to convince anyone of anything. I simply stated an interesting possible loophole, and am tired of explaining what I said to people who read into my words more than they said. I could not care less what license anyone chooses. I expressed an opinion that GPL was not the best choice. I said it was dangerous. I meant dangerous to the author, not to the rest of us. I disagree with Brett's contention that GPL is going to destroy us all. I just think it will hurt those who use it in the long run. But if they want to use it, that's their choice. >If you don't want people selling your software then you need to release it >under a much more restrictive license than either the GPL or BSD license. Obviously. For small programs I use BSD license. For a major project, like my Graphic Counter Language, I do not. In previous releases I simply stated my copyright in it. For the current release I wrote my own license given that none of the existing open-source licenses was satisfactory to what I wanted. I spent all of last night writing that license (333 lines), and am finally ready to go to bed at 6:15 am. :-) If anyone cares to read it, I posted it at http://www.whizkidtech.net/nnl/ where the nnl stands for No-Nonsense License. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.20 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 11:16: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0E91513B for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 11:16:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA13467; Sat, 22 May 1999 20:16:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA03502; Sat, 22 May 1999 20:15:52 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 20:15:51 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Terry Lambert Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990522201551.A2998@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Fri, May 21, 1999 at 09:47:06PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 09:47:06PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone > might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention > is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration > due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best > work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. This is why I use music when coding. Something repetetive, but still there - in order to screen out all other distractions. Usually I try to have trance without any vocals. I do not want *any* interruptions - this includes hearing random noise from outside, or the phone rining (I play my music loud :-), or other people coming into my office. DES tends to just sit down besides me when he want to get hold of me while I'm working, and he sometimes just gives up and leaves again :-) I do not consiously hear the music when I'm concentrating - I've sometimes taken sets I've "heard' at least a hundred times while working and listened to them while not concentrating on other things, and there are whole songs I've just not noticed... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 11:51:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC4014E1E for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 11:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 22 May 1999 11:51:50 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Cc: Subject: RE: Music to code by Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:51:50 -0700 Message-ID: <000601bea484$268129f0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I guess that makes some sense. Next time I can't get any useful coding does because of distractions, I'll try some 'uninteresting' music. DS > The music helps shut out other distractions, and, depenending on what > you listen to, has either a soothing or calming effect or ups your > adrenaline. It works just fine, as long as you stay away from music > with involved lyrics (opera is particularly bad). > > DES To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 11:51:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3803C14F4C for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 11:51:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 22 May 1999 11:51:51 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Mark Ovens" Cc: Subject: RE: Music to code by Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:51:51 -0700 Message-ID: <000701bea484$2720ec60$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990522115616.D255@marder-1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There was a theory many years ago that listening to white noise > was the way to block out all ambient sound and help you to > maximize your concentration and focus on the task in hand. There > were even audio cassettes containing nothing but 90 minutes > of white noise. Heck, it beats Barry Manilow. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 12: 3:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from november.jaded.net (november.jaded.net [209.90.128.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D238414FAC for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 12:03:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@november.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by november.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3+trinsec_nospam) id PAA31839 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 22 May 1999 15:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 15:10:12 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990522151012.B31749@trinsec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Myself, I often enjoy listening to music while I code. I find it helps me get into the "coders trance". I do my best work late at night, after the rest of the house has retired for the evening. I have a lapcat that often falls asleep in my lap as well, which relaxes me. Coffee is also a neccessity :-) -Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 12:10: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02EF4151A9 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 12:09:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24032; Sat, 22 May 1999 12:17:12 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 12:17:11 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Brad Benson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <000001bea406$96eb13a0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've got purple hair, is that close enough? I haven't had a mohawk since I was a teenager tho. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Fri, 21 May 1999, Brad Benson wrote: > If I'm in deep contemplation I need quite, but when it comes time for a > little music, it's usually some old school punk rock band. examples -- > X-Ray Spex, Uk Subs, Stiff Little Fingers. I bet I'm the only guy on this > list who still sports a mohawk. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Eric Hodel > > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 11:12 PM > > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Music to code by > > > > > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > > > -- > > Eric Hodel > > hodeleri@seattleu.edu > > > > "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." > > -- A. L. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 13:11:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop05.iname.net (pop05.iname.net [165.251.8.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D3B14C96 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 13:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r1.bfm.org [208.18.213.97]) by pop05.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id QAA14477; Sat, 22 May 1999 16:11:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990522151125.00965a80@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 15:11:25 -0500 To: From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: Music to code by Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <000001bea406$96eb13a0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:17 22-05-1999 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: >I've got purple hair, is that close enough? Purple hair? Gosh, I'd find that distracting while coding. Somehow I tend to associate purple fuzz with "I love you, you love me, we are one sick family." Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.20 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 13:29:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7C5114D92 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 13:29:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25607 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 13:37:21 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT) From: To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990522151125.00965a80@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't often see much of myself when I'm staring at the monitor :-) --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Sat, 22 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 12:17 22-05-1999 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > >I've got purple hair, is that close enough? > > Purple hair? Gosh, I'd find that distracting while coding. Somehow I tend > to associate purple fuzz with "I love you, you love me, we are one sick > family." > > Adam > --- > Want to design your own web counter? > Get GCL 2.20 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 14: 2:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE1B14C95 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 14:02:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.13]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2F30; Sat, 22 May 1999 23:02:34 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23988; Sat, 22 May 1999 23:02:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3744CF10.18614FCA@seattleu.edu> Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 23:02:47 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Eric Hodel Subject: RE: Music to code by Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-May-99 Eric Hodel wrote: > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? Just to add my weird tastes: Paradise Lost, Moonspell, The Gathering, Tiamat, Live, Lenny Kravitz, Queen (older albums), Radiohead, Pink Floyd, Roger Waters, Helloween, Iron Maiden (older albums), Alan Parsons (Project), Seal, The Fugees, The Cranberries, Insane Clown Posse, Skunk Anansie, Dog Eat Dog, Ace of Base, Any decent Trance, Fear Factory, Rage Against the Machine, The Prodigy, any good Big Beat/Chemical/Breakbeat/Jungle/Drum 'n Bass, Portishead, Dire Straits, Led Zeppelin, Jethro Tull, Deep Purple, Live, Andrea Bocelli, My Dying Bride, Sisters of Mercy, Theatre of Tragedy, Iced Earth, Snoop Doggy Dogg, Smashing Pumpkins, ect etc... =) Whatever my mood frankly... I cannot even concentrate without noise around me... Guess I should never be in the same room as Terry ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 14:32: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BB714D43 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 14:32:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jabley@buddha.clear.net.nz) Received: from buddha.clear.net.nz (buddha.clear.net.nz [192.168.24.106]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.13) with ESMTP id JAA05949; Sun, 23 May 1999 09:31:59 +1200 (NZST) Received: (from jabley@localhost) by buddha.clear.net.nz (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA62906; Sun, 23 May 1999 09:31:52 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from jabley) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:31:52 +1200 From: Joe Abley To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: jabley@clear.co.nz Subject: mail to news gateways Message-ID: <19990523093152.A62853@clear.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, Anybody have any recommendations for mailing list <--> newsgroup gateways? I've been looking at a combination of a procmail script to handle messages in the list -> group direction, and news2mail in the INN distribution to handle messages the other way. It's up and running, but I needed to install some hacks to prevent loops -- and I'm sure I haven't thought of all the hacks I need off the top of my head. Is there proven code to provide a bidirectional list <--> group gateway? [and no, this is not for gating any of the FreeBSD lists] Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 15: 9: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28BEB14F7E for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15303; Sun, 23 May 1999 00:08:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA07371; Sun, 23 May 1999 00:08:48 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 00:08:48 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: secure deletion Message-ID: <19990523000848.C2998@bitbox.follo.net> References: <01BEA2F3.8E3149A0.condor@inreach.com> <19990521141308.A85583@bitbox.follo.net> <7i4gns$i22$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <7i4gns$i22$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Fri, May 21, 1999 at 10:46:52PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 10:46:52PM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > -A guy had two heat warped CDs in a toaster.. > > You want to run them through a microwave oven first. > > I did that once. The stink of the burned plastic was incredible. No fun. Hmm, I've never had that problem. What effect microwave did you use? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 16:16:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E4214F95 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 16:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip216.houston13.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.213.216]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E0E370A0 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 19:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06466 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 22 May 1999 18:18:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:18:39 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: OpenBSD's logo changed... Message-ID: <19990522181839.D5868@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just noticed OpenBSD's logo had changed -- and it's much worse, it doesn't even feature the BSD daemon anymore! Anyone happen to know when and why? -- Chris Costello Long computations that yield zero are probably all for naught. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 17: 0:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1386314E12 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 17:00:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id RAA12751; Sat, 22 May 1999 17:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19990522170003.A12019@best.com> Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:00:03 -0700 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: chris@calldei.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenBSD's logo changed... References: <19990522181839.D5868@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990522181839.D5868@holly.dyndns.org>; from Chris Costello on Sat, May 22, 1999 at 06:18:39PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 22, 1999 at 06:18:39PM -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > I just noticed OpenBSD's logo had changed -- and it's much > worse, it doesn't even feature the BSD daemon anymore! Anyone > happen to know when and why? > > -- > Chris Costello > Long computations that yield zero are probably all for naught. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message What I find funny about the logo is that it reads: "Sending kiddies to /dev/null since 1992" One can only wonder if they do the same for real hackers the skill of which is far above 'kiddies' .. *shrug* I don't know why the logo changed, no. -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 17:36:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D08A15031 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 17:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10716; Sat, 22 May 1999 17:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37474D46.1DE54874@seattleu.edu> Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:35:18 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by References: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone > might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention > is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration > due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best > work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. > > Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when > coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? > Maybe your brain needs an upgrade to a MP kernel? -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 17:52:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EB615101 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 17:52:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA16629; Sun, 23 May 1999 02:52:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA08178; Sun, 23 May 1999 02:52:16 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 02:52:15 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Chris Costello Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenBSD's logo changed... Message-ID: <19990523025215.D2998@bitbox.follo.net> References: <19990522181839.D5868@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990522181839.D5868@holly.dyndns.org>; from Chris Costello on Sat, May 22, 1999 at 06:18:39PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 22, 1999 at 06:18:39PM -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > I just noticed OpenBSD's logo had changed -- and it's much > worse, it doesn't even feature the BSD daemon anymore! Anyone > happen to know when and why? That's the OpenBSD2.5 logo. Guess they're planning to change every release... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 17:54:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hecke.math.rochester.edu (hecke.math.rochester.edu [128.151.122.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B3015101 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 17:54:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hfir@math.rochester.edu) Received: from hecke.math.rochester.edu (hecke.math.rochester.edu [128.151.122.27]) by hecke.math.rochester.edu (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA78474; Sat, 22 May 1999 20:49:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from hfir@math.rochester.edu) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 20:49:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Hoss Firooznia To: Chris Costello Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenBSD's logo changed... In-Reply-To: <19990522181839.D5868@holly.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 22 May 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > I just noticed OpenBSD's logo had changed -- and it's much > worse, it doesn't even feature the BSD daemon anymore! Have a look at the CDROM cover, and you'll notice there's still a beastie (or two) to be found. The cop himself appears to be a daemon (albeit a strongly anthropomorphized one), and his badge makes the connection even more explicit: > Anyone happen to know when and why? As of the 2.5 release, and because it looks cool? :-) - Hoss To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 18:31:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230CB1514C for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 18:31:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-71-175.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.71.175]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08863; Sat, 22 May 1999 21:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA00966; Sat, 22 May 1999 21:32:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199905230132.VAA00966@bellsouth.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Music to code by In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 May 1999 17:35:18 PDT." <37474D46.1DE54874@seattleu.edu> Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:32:52 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone > might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention > is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration > due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best > work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. > > Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when > coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? When I'm really coding it's usually total silence. A lot of the work we do here involves also involves system assembly and setup which is time consuming but not really challenging. That's a good time to get the lab rocking :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 19:12:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C61151C5 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 19:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id EAA08148 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 23 May 1999 04:12:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 7A7DC87AE; Sun, 23 May 1999 00:02:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 00:02:50 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mail to news gateways Message-ID: <19990523000250.A37009@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <19990523093152.A62853@clear.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <19990523093152.A62853@clear.co.nz>; from Joe Abley on Sun, May 23, 1999 at 09:31:52AM +1200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5322 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Joe Abley: > Anybody have any recommendations for mailing list <--> newsgroup gateways? > I've been looking at a combination of a procmail script to handle messages > in the list -> group direction, and news2mail in the INN distribution to > handle messages the other way. The best way I've found to do this is the News::Gateway Perl module by Russ Allbery. It is on CPAN in CPAN/authors/id/RRA. Makes writing a script to gate everything into a newsgroup very easy. The one I used to use with the FreeBSD lists is about 30 lines including config. By using the following script and setting the groups as moderated, you can even post. -=-=- #! /usr/local/bin/perl -w #-*-Perl-*- # mail2news for the FreeBSD lists # # Based on News::Gateway require 5.004; use News::Gateway; my $gateway = new News::Gateway 1, 'lists-owner@keltia.freenix.fr'; $gateway->modules ('newsgroups', 'headers', mailtonews => [$ARGV[0] || 'freebsd.test'], 'cleanbody'); $gateway->config_file (\*DATA); $gateway->read (\*STDIN); my $error = $gateway->apply (); if ($error) { $gateway->error ($error) } $error = $gateway->post (); if ($error) { $gateway->error ($error) } __END__ header comment replace $n $v header approved replace lists-owner@keltia.freenix.fr header cc drop header content-length drop header delivered-to drop header path drop header return-path drop header sender drop header status drop header to drop header date rename group freebsd.announce /(freebsd-|)announce\@freebsd/ group freebsd.bugs /(freebsd-|)bugs\@freebsd/ group freebsd.chat /(freebsd-|)chat\@freebsd/ group freebsd.config /(freebsd-|)config\@freebsd/ group freebsd.current /(freebsd-|)current\@freebsd/ group freebsd.cvs /(freebsd-|)cvs\@freebsd/ group freebsd.doc /(freebsd-|)doc\@freebsd/ group freebsd.fs /(freebsd-|)fs\@freebsd/ group freebsd.hackers /(freebsd-|)hackers\@freebsd/ group freebsd.hardware /(freebsd-|)hardware\@freebsd/ group freebsd.hubs /(freebsd-|)hubs\@freebsd/ group freebsd.mobile /(freebsd-|)mobile\@freebsd/ group freebsd.net /(freebsd-|)net\@freebsd/ group freebsd.ports /(freebsd-|)ports\@freebsd/ group freebsd.scsi /(freebsd-|)scsi\@freebsd/ group freebsd.security /(freebsd-|)security\@freebsd/ group freebsd.smp /(freebsd-|)smp\@freebsd/ -=-=- -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #71: Sun May 9 20:16:32 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 22 23: 4:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D9314D74 for ; Sat, 22 May 1999 23:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r42.bfm.org [208.18.213.138]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id CAA21847 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 02:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990523010402.00985b40@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 01:04:02 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: Music to code by In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990522151125.00965a80@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:37 22-05-1999 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: >I don't often see much of myself when I'm staring at the monitor :-) You mean you don't use a rear view mirror??? :-) Adam, whose hair is red --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.20 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 3: 0:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C715B150F7 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 03:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05510; Sun, 23 May 1999 03:08:03 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 03:08:03 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990523010402.00985b40@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Like it'd help much, I code best in the dark :) Not much to see by monitor glow. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Sun, 23 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 13:37 22-05-1999 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > >I don't often see much of myself when I'm staring at the monitor :-) > > You mean you don't use a rear view mirror??? :-) > > Adam, whose hair is red > --- > Want to design your own web counter? > Get GCL 2.20 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 4:44: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (baerenklau.de.freebsd.org [195.185.195.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2037515313 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 04:43:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id NAA01969; Sun, 23 May 1999 13:43:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by paula.panke.de.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA04592; Sun, 23 May 1999 13:38:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wosch) Message-ID: <19990523133809.37117@panke.de.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:38:09 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider To: Terry Lambert , The Hermit Hacker Cc: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of Companies/Corporations Using FreeBSD ... References: <199905172126.OAA27011@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199905172126.OAA27011@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, May 17, 1999 at 09:26:30PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1999-05-17 21:26:30 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html > > > > *slap forehead* does the following entry *really* provide anyone any > > weight as far as credibility is concerned? > > > > Microsnot Corp. -- We at Microsnot make a killing off of stealing idea's > > I've pointed this out before, twice. You sent it to the wrong lists. If you find a bug on the web server please write a email to the webmaster mailing list www@freebsd.org Or write a bug report using send-pr. Thanks, Wolfram To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 6:30:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEAF14D18 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 06:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11857; Sun, 23 May 1999 06:30:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd011841; Sun May 23 06:30:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA10021; Sun, 23 May 1999 06:30:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905231330.GAA10021@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Music to code by To: crb@ChrisBowman.com (Christopher R. Bowman) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:30:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905212309.TAA07729@quark.ChrisBowman.com> from "Christopher R. Bowman" at May 21, 99 07:08:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when > >coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? > > Why do you assume that your inability to concentrate in the face of music or > other distractions means that every body else has the same problem? Because interruption is interruption. People can demand your attention, regardless of what you will. > >All of the best coders I have known throughout my career go into > >semi-autistic funks -- pacing, rocking backward and forward in their > >chairs, etc. -- while producing their best code. > > Ok, your empirical evidence isn't a horrible basis for judgement, but > come on do you really think it is unbiased? I don't find music > distracting at all, but the two guys that used to site behind my > cubicle at GE and talk about golf all day, well lets just say I have > a real hard time screening out human voices having a conversation. Coding is inherently mathematical, as is music. Using the same part of your brain for two activities results in half (or less) of the effort applied to the activity than if you were using it for one. Maybe the people who code to music don't recognize coding as a mathematical activity? Or maybe they don't recognize music as being mathematical? Either way, it's a division of effort. I don't think that Twisted Sister is algorithmically biased toward coding hashing functions... maybe I'm just a different species of fish? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 9:32:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B35715097 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 09:32:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id SAA00607 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 23 May 1999 18:32:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10laR1-000WyZC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Sun, 23 May 1999 17:45:07 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: secure deletion Date: 23 May 1999 17:45:04 +0200 Message-ID: <7i97q0$33d$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <01BEA2F3.8E3149A0.condor@inreach.com> <19990523000848.C2998@bitbox.follo.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund wrote: [ microwaving CDs ] > > I did that once. The stink of the burned plastic was incredible. No fun. > Hmm, I've never had that problem. What effect microwave did you use? I forgot. It's a 600W microwave, but possibly I used a lower setting. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 12: 5:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16EB414CF6 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 12:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id MAA14428; Sun, 23 May 1999 12:04:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 12:04:32 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990523120432.D93974@001101.zer0.org> References: <3.0.6.32.19990522151125.00965a80@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990523010402.00985b40@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990523010402.00985b40@mail.bfm.org>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Sun, May 23, 1999 at 01:04:02AM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 23, 1999 at 01:04:02AM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 13:37 22-05-1999 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > >I don't often see much of myself when I'm staring at the monitor :-) > > You mean you don't use a rear view mirror??? :-) I use a rear view mirror. It doesn't show me me, though, because that would defeat the purpose. It's aimed up and over my right shoulder (that's where the traffic comes from). > Adam, whose hair is red Greg, whose hair is brown and skin is pinkish tan. -- Gregory S. Sutter "Very funny, Scotty. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com Now beam down my clothes." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 12:47:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F8214E44 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 12:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14842; Sun, 23 May 1999 12:53:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 12:53:46 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Christopher R. Bowman" , bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <199905231330.GAA10021@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 23 May 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when > > >coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? > > > > Why do you assume that your inability to concentrate in the face of music or > > other distractions means that every body else has the same problem? > > Because interruption is interruption. People can demand your > attention, regardless of what you will. > > >All of the best coders I have known throughout my career go into > > >semi-autistic funks -- pacing, rocking backward and forward in their > > >chairs, etc. -- while producing their best code. > > > > Ok, your empirical evidence isn't a horrible basis for judgement, but > > come on do you really think it is unbiased? I don't find music > > distracting at all, but the two guys that used to site behind my > > cubicle at GE and talk about golf all day, well lets just say I have > > a real hard time screening out human voices having a conversation. > > Coding is inherently mathematical, as is music. Using the same > part of your brain for two activities results in half (or less) > of the effort applied to the activity than if you were using it > for one. > > Maybe the people who code to music don't recognize coding as a > mathematical activity? Or maybe they don't recognize music as > being mathematical? Either way, it's a division of effort. > > I don't think that Twisted Sister is algorithmically biased toward > coding hashing functions... maybe I'm just a different species of > fish? From what I've read (not a lot, but enough) listening to music actaully serves to *stimulate* those segments of the brain. Why would you think that listening to music would "use up" your brain power? And why do you think that the brain is some kind of single-tasking system? I think the brain is not nearly as linear and mechanical as you seem to think. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 12:52:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8929514E44 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 12:52:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14983; Sun, 23 May 1999 12:59:51 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 12:59:51 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Gregory Sutter Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <19990523120432.D93974@001101.zer0.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 23 May 1999, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Sun, May 23, 1999 at 01:04:02AM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > At 13:37 22-05-1999 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > >I don't often see much of myself when I'm staring at the monitor :-) > > > > You mean you don't use a rear view mirror??? :-) > > I use a rear view mirror. It doesn't show me me, though, because that > would defeat the purpose. It's aimed up and over my right shoulder > (that's where the traffic comes from). Hmm. Either you've got a strange household, or you're the scariest driver I've ever heard of. > > Adam, whose hair is red > > Greg, whose hair is brown and skin is pinkish tan. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 14: 2:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (assurance.rstcorp.com [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34A014C8A for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 14:02:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18477; Sun, 23 May 1999 16:03:37 -0400 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma018474; Sun, 23 May 99 20:03:28 GMT Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12131; Sun, 23 May 1999 17:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA62978; Sun, 23 May 1999 17:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905232102.RAA62978@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Viren R. Shah" To: Joe Abley Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re:mail to news gateways In-Reply-To: <19990523093152.A62853@clear.co.nz> References: <19990523093152.A62853@clear.co.nz> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Abley writes: > Hi all, > > Anybody have any recommendations for mailing list <--> newsgroup gateways? > I've been looking at a combination of a procmail script to handle messages > in the list -> group direction, and news2mail in the INN distribution to > handle messages the other way. > Have you looked at mailman (www.list.org). It is a mailing list manager which does pretty good list <-> newsgroup relaying. > Joe Viren -- Viren R. Shah {viren @ rstcorp . com} Names : Vanadium(23) Iodine(53) RhEnium(75) Nitrogen(7) Density(g/mL): 5.8 4.92 21 0.0001251 Average Density: 7.93003 g/mL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 14: 3:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F1114C8A for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 14:03:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27789; Sun, 23 May 1999 14:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37485F23.BBEC6B28@seattleu.edu> Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:03:47 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: Gregory Sutter , "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > I use a rear view mirror. It doesn't show me me, though, because that > > would defeat the purpose. It's aimed up and over my right shoulder > > (that's where the traffic comes from). > > Hmm. Either you've got a strange household, or you're the scariest driver > I've ever heard of. You must be in one of those backwards "drive-on-the-left-side-of-the-road" countries. In a proper country, people drive on the right, and a rear-view mirror (the one attached to the windshield/dash) is to the right of the driver. (unless you are a mailperson) -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 14:13:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA27314C97 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 14:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16620; Sun, 23 May 1999 14:20:10 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 14:20:10 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Eric Hodel Cc: Gregory Sutter , "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <37485F23.BBEC6B28@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Never mind, I thought you were talking about coding while in your car :) --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Sun, 23 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > > I use a rear view mirror. It doesn't show me me, though, because that > > > would defeat the purpose. It's aimed up and over my right shoulder > > > (that's where the traffic comes from). > > > > Hmm. Either you've got a strange household, or you're the scariest driver > > I've ever heard of. > > You must be in one of those backwards > "drive-on-the-left-side-of-the-road" countries. In a proper country, > people drive on the right, and a rear-view mirror (the one attached to > the windshield/dash) is to the right of the driver. > (unless you are a mailperson) > > -- > Eric Hodel > hodeleri@seattleu.edu > > "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." > -- A. L. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 15:28:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E4EE14E5D for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 19034 invoked by alias); 23 May 1999 22:28:26 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 18997 invoked by uid 0); 23 May 1999 22:28:25 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 23 May 1999 22:28:25 -0000 Message-ID: <37488103.B522929B@uswest.net> Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:28:19 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: Terry Lambert , "Christopher R. Bowman" , bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Coding is inherently mathematical, as is music. Using the same >> part of your brain for two activities results in half (or less) >> of the effort applied to the activity than if you were using it >> for one. > > From what I've read (not a lot, but enough) listening to music actaully > serves to *stimulate* those segments of the brain. Why would you think > that listening to music would "use up" your brain power? And why do you > think that the brain is some kind of single-tasking system? I think the > brain is not nearly as linear and mechanical as you seem to think. I'm reminded of someone's trouble with NIC performance. The problem was the speed at which the IRQs fired. The faster the IRQs came, the faster his NIC performed. When he shared the NIC's IRQ with something that was generating a lot of IRQs (an active disk controller, eg) the NIC's performance shot up. You could look at listening to music the same way: it speeds up the rate of electrical signals in the part of the brain that is also used to write code. I know that when I'm designing a circuit board or working on some graphics routine, listening to fast music shortens the length of time it takes me to perform that task. If I listen to a slow song it takes me longer. The brain really is a computer. It's a multiple bus system with hundreds of processors running asymetrically. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 15:31:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EF6E14F54 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:31:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17024; Sun, 23 May 1999 18:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:31:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Christopher Masto Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <19990519204729.C14096@netmonger.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris, Bretts at it again? Hrrm I'm glad I had procmail installed and filtering him ;). Speaking of which, we need to have another FUNY meeting soon (how about right after USENIX) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christopher Masto wrote: > On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 11:31:24AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > The GPL transforms a good effort into a bad one. It incorporates > > the effort into Stallman's anti-business, anti-consumer, > > monopolistic agenda. > > Yeah, but it pisses you off, which is reason enough to use it. > -- > Christopher Masto Senior Network Monkey NetMonger Communications > chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net > > Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 15:41: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA91214F54 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:40:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17072; Sun, 23 May 1999 18:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:40:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Eric Hodel , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yah for me, when and if I do code, its usually some heavy industrial (gravity kills, my life with the thrill kill kult, front line assembly) or Rush, Yes, Marillion, Genesis or any number of 70's prog-rock bands, the same ones I listen to while working on my machines. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 20 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > Heavy Metal + Rock and Roll. > > Alice in Chains, Pantera, Fear Factory, Led Zeppelin. > > then again, I enjoy assembler coding... *shrug* > > -Alfred > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 15:41:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A3E14F54 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27623; Sun, 23 May 1999 16:41:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990523164021.046af2c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 16:41:21 -0600 To: Pat Lynch , Christopher Masto From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990519204729.C14096@netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Looks like someone can't deal with reality, so he's plugging his electronic ears. Too bad. --Brett Glass At 06:31 PM 5/23/99 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: >Chris, > Bretts at it again? Hrrm I'm glad I had procmail installed and >filtering him ;). Speaking of which, we need to have another FUNY meeting >soon (how about right after USENIX) -Pat > >___________________________________________________________________________ > >Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net >Systems Administrator Rush Networking > >"Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... > Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." > > -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace > >"And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... > With all good intention I would probably run away..... > clutching the short straw." > > -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ >___________________________________________________________________________ > >On Wed, 19 May 1999, Christopher Masto wrote: > > > On Wed, May 19, 1999 at 11:31:24AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > The GPL transforms a good effort into a bad one. It incorporates > > > the effort into Stallman's anti-business, anti-consumer, > > > monopolistic agenda. > > > > Yeah, but it pisses you off, which is reason enough to use it. > > -- > > Christopher Masto Senior Network Monkey NetMonger Communications > > chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net > > > > Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 15:42: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B7E14F54 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17087; Sun, 23 May 1999 18:41:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:41:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Eric Hodel , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <199905210414.AAA02143@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org you need some Rush ;) ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 21 May 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > pinkfloydledzeppelinzztopericclaptonjimihendrixsantanabtoemersonlakeand > palmeryesjethrotullynyrskynyrdrdfleetwoodmacthinlizzyqueensrychekansas > foreignerthebeatlessublimequeengreendayzztopstevierayvaughnbostonbadcompany > > ELVIS (i'm from mississippi) > > davidbowierollingstonessupertrampjourneythebandcrosbystillsnashandyoung > drivingandcryingvanhalenjeffersonairplanestarshipthegratefuldeadaretha > franklinjimcrocelennykravitzjonimitchellalicecooperstyxthesexpistolsdire > straightsstevewinwoodcream > > that's all my mp3's anyway. I need more :) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 15:46:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DDEF150E6 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:46:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17142; Sun, 23 May 1999 18:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:45:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Eric Hodel , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org what kind of Celtic, I've got alot of Capercallie, Altan, and Moving HEarts... -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 21 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > When I coded assembly I used to listen to Pantera, Metallica, White > Zombie, etc, but now I'm a Perl coder and I've switched mostly to Celtic > music. Connection? Hmm... > > --- > tani hosokawa > river styx internet > > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > > > Heavy Metal + Rock and Roll. > > > > Alice in Chains, Pantera, Fear Factory, Led Zeppelin. > > > > then again, I enjoy assembler coding... *shrug* > > > > -Alfred > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 15:47:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029A7150E6 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:47:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19320; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:55:19 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:55:19 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <37488103.B522929B@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Following on that tangent, you can get a neat effect if you put a mouse on COM1 and a modem on COM3. You'll only transfer data properly if you move your mouse vigourously the entire time that you're online :) --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Sun, 23 May 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >> Coding is inherently mathematical, as is music. Using the same > >> part of your brain for two activities results in half (or less) > >> of the effort applied to the activity than if you were using it > >> for one. > > > > From what I've read (not a lot, but enough) listening to music actaully > > serves to *stimulate* those segments of the brain. Why would you think > > that listening to music would "use up" your brain power? And why do you > > think that the brain is some kind of single-tasking system? I think the > > brain is not nearly as linear and mechanical as you seem to think. > > I'm reminded of someone's trouble with NIC performance. The problem > was the speed at which the IRQs fired. The faster the IRQs came, the > faster his NIC performed. When he shared the NIC's IRQ with something > that was generating a lot of IRQs (an active disk controller, eg) the > NIC's performance shot up. > > You could look at listening to music the same way: it speeds up the > rate of electrical signals in the part of the brain that is also used > to write code. I know that when I'm designing a circuit board or > working on some graphics routine, listening to fast music shortens > the length of time it takes me to perform that task. If I listen to > a slow song it takes me longer. > > The brain really is a computer. It's a multiple bus system with > hundreds of processors running asymetrically. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 15:52:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A160150E6 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:52:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17201; Sun, 23 May 1999 18:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:51:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Terry Lambert Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <199905212147.OAA04190@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yah my girlfriend says that I start breathing heavy, rock back and forth and just go completely out for a while. The music becomes backround at that point and I don;t think I realize sometimes its even playing or that it stopped wehen it did. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 21 May 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone > might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention > is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration > due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best > work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. > > Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when > coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? > > All of the best coders I have known throughout my career go into > semi-autistic funks -- pacing, rocking backward and forward in their > chairs, etc. -- while producing their best code. > > Bill Gates is reputed to rock back and forth in his chair like > Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man" when he is concentrating deeply upon > some subject (coding, taking money from little old ladies, whatever). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 15:54:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3251E150E6 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 15:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19462; Sun, 23 May 1999 16:01:24 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 16:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Pat Lynch Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Eric Hodel , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Loreena McKennit, Great Big Sea, Irish Rovers, Lisa Lynne, various nameless collections... have you got a tape called "Music from the mists"? It's probably the best celtic harp music I've heard, but I can't find it on CD, and I don't have a tape player anymore :( --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Sun, 23 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > what kind of Celtic, I've got alot of Capercallie, Altan, and Moving > HEarts... -Pat > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > Systems Administrator Rush Networking > > "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... > Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." > > -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace > > "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... > With all good intention I would probably run away..... > clutching the short straw." > > -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > On Fri, 21 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > > When I coded assembly I used to listen to Pantera, Metallica, White > > Zombie, etc, but now I'm a Perl coder and I've switched mostly to Celtic > > music. Connection? Hmm... > > > > --- > > tani hosokawa > > river styx internet > > > > > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > > > > > > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > > > > > Heavy Metal + Rock and Roll. > > > > > > Alice in Chains, Pantera, Fear Factory, Led Zeppelin. > > > > > > then again, I enjoy assembler coding... *shrug* > > > > > > -Alfred > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 16: 4:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032EA1514B for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 16:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rage@cyberwitch.org) Received: from localhost (rage@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17281; Sun, 23 May 1999 19:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 19:03:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Rhiannon X-Sender: rage@bytor.rush.net To: Pat Lynch Cc: Terry Lambert , unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ha yeh i can certainly vouch for this bizarre behaviour ... hmm..i wonder if these afflictions will strike me down after my first solo install of freeBSD this week ... nah i'm not a geek i'm not a geek i'm not a geek L ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ how do you know she's a witch ? * * * rage@cyberwitch.org rage@rush.net rage@free.bsdunix.net On Sun, 23 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > yah my girlfriend says that I start breathing heavy, rock back and forth > and just go completely out for a while. The music becomes backround at > that point and I don;t think I realize sometimes its even playing or that > it stopped wehen it did. > > -Pat > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > Systems Administrator Rush Networking > > "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... > Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." > > -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace > > "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... > With all good intention I would probably run away..... > clutching the short straw." > > -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > On Fri, 21 May 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > Sorry, but I just don't get this whole thread; how can anyone code > > at their best while listening to music? The idea that my phone > > might ring or that someone might show up and demand my attention > > is enough that I can't get to my deepest level of concentration > > due to anticipating the mere possibility of interruption. My best > > work is always achieved at home or in an office with the door closed. > > > > Is it just that other people don't concentrate very deeply when > > coding, or is it that they just don't code very deeply? > > > > All of the best coders I have known throughout my career go into > > semi-autistic funks -- pacing, rocking backward and forward in their > > chairs, etc. -- while producing their best code. > > > > Bill Gates is reputed to rock back and forth in his chair like > > Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man" when he is concentrating deeply upon > > some subject (coding, taking money from little old ladies, whatever). > > > > > > Terry Lambert > > terry@lambert.org > > --- > > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > > or previous employers. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 16:24:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B807114A2F for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 16:24:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20129; Sun, 23 May 1999 16:31:59 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 16:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Rhiannon Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just click your heels together three times, and... ;) --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Sun, 23 May 1999, Rhiannon wrote: > ha yeh i can certainly vouch for this bizarre behaviour ... > hmm..i wonder if these afflictions will strike me down after my first solo > install of freeBSD this week ... > nah i'm not a geek i'm not a geek i'm not a geek > L > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > how do you know she's a witch ? > * * * > rage@cyberwitch.org rage@rush.net rage@free.bsdunix.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 17:35:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F96114D89 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 17:35:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA26506; Sun, 23 May 1999 19:54:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 19:54:41 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Pat Lynch Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 23 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > yah for me, when and if I do code, its usually some heavy industrial > (gravity kills, my life with the thrill kill kult, front line assembly) or > Rush, Yes, Marillion, Genesis or any number of 70's prog-rock bands, the > same ones I listen to while working on my machines. About 8 cups of coffee and trying to optimize a zone allocator with AIC blaring, works nicely for me. :) Genesys does rock. > -Pat > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > Systems Administrator Rush Networking > > "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... > Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." > > -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace "Fear comes from not understanding why NT won't find a printer port when 95 can plainly print... Fear leads to Anger... Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to knowing better and installing FreeBSD when NT can't find a simple Printer port." -Alfred, Printer wars: Getting NT to find a LPT port I've really got to check that movie out. Isn't it true that MS made the big push and "standard" for PnP on PC hardware? If this is true, why could '95 detect the printer and serial ports in a PC i was working on, but NT wouldn't unless I explicitly turned them on from the BIOS? Is NT only -half- a "PnP OS?" Why is it that the only good way i've found to find what hardware is in a computer lately is by booting a freebsd install disk? 2 hours wasted trying to find the right way to do something in a broken world (NT). hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate Is there a "NT-haters" mailing list anywhere? I'm still trying to figure out what exactly NT can be used for. Perhaps if I turned on the GL screensaver is could make a nice conversation piece at a party? use FreeBSD, it just fsck'n works. thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 18: 0:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46DEA14DA3 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 18:00:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id RAA17545; Sun, 23 May 1999 17:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:59:28 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Eric Hodel Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990523175928.E93974@001101.zer0.org> References: <37485F23.BBEC6B28@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <37485F23.BBEC6B28@seattleu.edu>; from Eric Hodel on Sun, May 23, 1999 at 01:03:47PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 23, 1999 at 01:03:47PM -0700, Eric Hodel wrote: > unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > > I use a rear view mirror. It doesn't show me me, though, because that > > > would defeat the purpose. It's aimed up and over my right shoulder > > > (that's where the traffic comes from). > > > > Hmm. Either you've got a strange household, or you're the scariest driver > > I've ever heard of. > > You must be in one of those backwards > "drive-on-the-left-side-of-the-road" countries. In a proper country, > people drive on the right, and a rear-view mirror (the one attached to > the windshield/dash) is to the right of the driver. > (unless you are a mailperson) Both of you need to go back and read the beginning of this thread. You're missing a little bit of context. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Computing is a terminal addiction. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 23 18:29:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30DE314E21 for ; Sun, 23 May 1999 18:29:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-71-157.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.71.157]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA15892; Sun, 23 May 1999 21:27:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA17970; Sun, 23 May 1999 21:31:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199905240131.VAA17970@bellsouth.net> To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Music to code by In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 23 May 1999 18:41:28 EDT." Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:31:12 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > you need some Rush ;) Of course this is true. Alas, my Rush CD's are too trashed (already tried ripping them). Ok, I'll go buy a couple of new ones tomorrow :) Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 4:54:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EAE214D90 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 04:54:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA89861; Mon, 24 May 1999 13:54:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: chris@calldei.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenBSD's logo changed... References: <19990522181839.D5868@holly.dyndns.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 May 1999 13:54:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: Chris Costello's message of "Sat, 22 May 1999 18:18:39 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 29 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Costello writes: > I just noticed OpenBSD's logo had changed -- and it's much > worse, it doesn't even feature the BSD daemon anymore! Anyone > happen to know when and why? BTW, their homepage lies - it has a 'Powered by OpenBSD' logo at the bottom, but the site still runs on Solaris: root@des ~# nmap -O -sS -p 22,80 www.openbsd.org Starting nmap V. 2.12 by Fyodor (fyodor@dhp.com, www.insecure.org/nmap/) Interesting ports on openbsd.sunsite.ualberta.ca (129.128.5.191): Port State Protocol Service 22 open tcp ssh 80 open tcp http TCP Sequence Prediction: Class=random positive increments Difficulty=39960 (Worthy challenge) Remote operating system guess: Solaris 2.6 - 2.7 Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 9 seconds root@des ~# host www.openbsd.org www.openbsd.org has address 129.128.5.191 root@des ~# host 129.128.5.191 191.5.128.129.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer openbsd.sunsite.ualberta.ca DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 7: 7:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (assurance.rstcorp.com [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B711515D for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21756 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 09:08:43 -0400 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma021747; Mon, 24 May 99 13:07:51 GMT Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21823 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 10:06:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA08878; Mon, 24 May 1999 10:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905241406.KAA08878@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: SETI@home has teams now! X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just a FYI: SETI@Home now allows people to join teams. There is already a "Team FreeBSD" : http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/cgi?cmd=team_show&id=505 Viren -- Viren R. Shah "You are about as sharp as a sack of wet mice" -- Foghorn Leghorn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 7:26: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA8CC14BD3 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07837; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905241423.HAA07837@implode.root.com> To: tech@cdrom.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: wcarchive record From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:23:53 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As the attached stats show for yesterday (Sunday), we set another new daily traffic record on wcarchive. Late Friday night we started testing gigabit ethernet with CRL. We broke the 1TB threshold on Saturday with a record 1.12TB of traffic, and then broke that the next day with an incredible 1.39TB of file downloads. The high numbers for linux are due to the new release of Slackware 4.0 as well as residual effects of the Redhat 6.0 release that occured a couple of weeks ago. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: burden@web1.cdrom.com Received: from wcarchive.cdrom.com (wcarchive.cdrom.com [209.155.82.18]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07801 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1.cdrom.com (web1.cdrom.com [209.155.82.19]) by wcarchive.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA92336 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from burden@web1.cdrom.com) Received: (from burden@localhost) by web1.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19170 for ftp-stats@ftp.cdrom.com; Mon, 24 May 1999 07:14:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from burden) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:14:22 -0700 (PDT) From: John Burden Message-Id: <199905241414.HAA19170@web1.cdrom.com> To: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com Subject: Dual Log Stats - 1999/05/24 Dual Log Stats : May 24 1999 -------------------------------------------------- Current Record Delta --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Bytes 1,391,836,770,942 1,391,836,770,942 New Record! Files 3,288,245 3,288,245 New Record! FTP Bytes 1,391,836,770,942 1,391,836,770,942 New Record! FTP Files 3,288,245 3,288,245 New Record! HTTP Bytes 58,081,249,072 -58,081,249,072 HTTP Files 567,700 -567,700 =============================================================================== Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ /linux 637,121M 637,121M 0M 2,264,963 2,264,963 0 45.78 68.88 /3dfiles 131,347M 131,347M 0M 43,272 43,272 0 9.44 1.32 /idgames 129,095M 129,095M 0M 52,404 52,404 0 9.28 1.59 /FreeBSD 125,341M 125,341M 0M 515,465 515,465 0 9.01 15.68 /planetquake 86,075M 86,075M 0M 51,878 51,878 0 6.18 1.58 /cnet 62,082M 62,082M 0M 35,729 35,729 0 4.46 1.09 /games 54,182M 54,182M 0M 17,433 17,433 0 3.89 0.53 /gamesdomain 49,468M 49,468M 0M 11,715 11,715 0 3.55 0.36 /simtelnet 29,712M 29,712M 0M 53,306 53,306 0 2.13 1.62 /3drealms 17,289M 17,289M 0M 17,038 17,038 0 1.24 0.52 /setiathome 13,982M 13,982M 0M 26,591 26,591 0 1.00 0.81 /idgames2 13,887M 13,887M 0M 38,905 38,905 0 1.00 1.18 /demos 8,187M 8,187M 0M 13,311 13,311 0 0.59 0.40 /audio 7,012M 7,012M 0M 72,207 72,207 0 0.50 2.20 /bluesnews 4,397M 4,397M 0M 702 702 0 0.32 0.02 /jn4 3,921M 3,921M 0M 593 593 0 0.28 0.02 /gt 2,414M 2,414M 0M 727 727 0 0.17 0.02 /sac 1,796M 1,796M 0M 3,667 3,667 0 0.13 0.11 /cheats 1,457M 1,457M 0M 6,807 6,807 0 0.10 0.21 /unreal 1,350M 1,350M 0M 2,686 2,686 0 0.10 0.08 /games_patches 1,287M 1,287M 0M 1,277 1,277 0 0.09 0.04 /security 1,248M 1,248M 0M 710 710 0 0.09 0.02 /XFree86 1,182M 1,182M 0M 1,173 1,173 0 0.08 0.04 /japanese 802M 802M 0M 920 920 0 0.06 0.03 /tex 780M 780M 0M 17,502 17,502 0 0.06 0.53 /x2ftp 672M 672M 0M 3,232 3,232 0 0.05 0.10 /gutenberg 644M 644M 0M 1,929 1,929 0 0.05 0.06 //ls-lR 532M 532M 0M 76 76 0 0.04 0.00 /perl 451M 451M 0M 7,197 7,197 0 0.03 0.22 //ls-lR.gz 440M 440M 0M 128 128 0 0.03 0.00 /artpacks 350M 350M 0M 2,012 2,012 0 0.03 0.06 /delphi 344M 344M 0M 3,439 3,439 0 0.02 0.10 /beos 292M 292M 0M 840 840 0 0.02 0.03 /novell 233M 233M 0M 683 683 0 0.02 0.02 /povray 219M 219M 0M 1,106 1,106 0 0.02 0.03 /languages 185M 185M 0M 475 475 0 0.01 0.01 /infozip 175M 175M 0M 953 953 0 0.01 0.03 /gnu 148M 148M 0M 255 255 0 0.01 0.01 /.dresden.old 147M 147M 0M 378 378 0 0.01 0.01 /X11 147M 147M 0M 615 615 0 0.01 0.02 /gus 140M 140M 0M 249 249 0 0.01 0.01 /bsd-sources 140M 140M 0M 354 354 0 0.01 0.01 /abuse 129M 129M 0M 159 159 0 0.01 0.00 /garbo 127M 127M 0M 737 737 0 0.01 0.02 /NetBSD 116M 116M 0M 203 203 0 0.01 0.01 /os2 85M 85M 0M 623 623 0 0.01 0.02 /python 84M 84M 0M 148 148 0 0.01 0.00 /java 75M 75M 0M 397 397 0 0.01 0.01 /idgames3 62M 62M 0M 11 11 0 0.00 0.00 /math 48M 48M 0M 235 235 0 0.00 0.01 /irc 47M 47M 0M 182 182 0 0.00 0.01 /mozilla 41M 41M 0M 22 22 0 0.00 0.00 /cdrom 37M 37M 0M 662 662 0 0.00 0.02 /internet 25M 25M 0M 885 885 0 0.00 0.03 /algorithms 25M 25M 0M 5,023 5,023 0 0.00 0.15 /4cust 22M 22M 0M 9 9 0 0.00 0.00 /unixfreeware 20M 20M 0M 127 127 0 0.00 0.00 /hamradio 19M 19M 0M 231 231 0 0.00 0.01 /ase 19M 19M 0M 429 429 0 0.00 0.01 /tomahawk 17M 17M 0M 75 75 0 0.00 0.00 /mac 17M 17M 0M 119 119 0 0.00 0.00 /vim 17M 17M 0M 35 35 0 0.00 0.00 /delphideli 15M 15M 0M 121 121 0 0.00 0.00 /asme 14M 14M 0M 127 127 0 0.00 0.00 /tcl 13M 13M 0M 73 73 0 0.00 0.00 /wcarchive.jpg 11M 11M 0M 125 125 0 0.00 0.00 /avalon 10M 10M 0M 100 100 0 0.00 0.00 /viseng 8M 8M 0M 14 14 0 0.00 0.00 /mutt 7M 7M 0M 23 23 0 0.00 0.00 /obi 6M 6M 0M 87 87 0 0.00 0.00 /netlib 2M 2M 0M 442 442 0 0.00 0.01 /png 1M 1M 0M 69 69 0 0.00 0.00 //UPLOADS.TXT 1M 1M 0M 612 612 0 0.00 0.02 /.qnx 1M 1M 0M 4 4 0 0.00 0.00 /README 1M 1M 0M 233 233 0 0.00 0.01 /sde 975k 975k 0k 23 23 0 0.00 0.00 /wcarchive.txt 912k 912k 0k 268 268 0 0.00 0.01 /MacSciTech 869k 869k 0k 27 27 0 0.00 0.00 /unix-c 678k 678k 0k 21 21 0 0.00 0.00 //README 346k 346k 0k 498 498 0 0.00 0.02 //catalog.txt 181k 181k 0k 5 5 0 0.00 0.00 /slow.txt 76k 76k 0k 57 57 0 0.00 0.00 /msg.toomany 24k 24k 0k 63 63 0 0.00 0.00 /mng 21k 21k 0k 14 14 0 0.00 0.00 /.games_patches_old 19k 19k 0k 7 7 0 0.00 0.00 /configuration 17k 17k 0k 5 5 0 0.00 0.00 //.message 14k 14k 0k 11 11 0 0.00 0.00 //config.txt 3k 3k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 /UPLOADS.TXT 2k 2k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ 89 archives 1,391,836M 1,391,836M 0M 3,288,245 3,288,245 0 ~100.0 ~100.0 (k) = 1,000 bytes (M) = 1,000,000 bytes =============================================================================== Yesterday Average (30 days) Delta - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 3,288,245 1,959,021 1,329,224 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 Hits (combo) 3,288,245 1,959,021 1,329,224 Bytes (FTP) 1,391,836,770,942 911,484,711,406 480,352,059,536 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 Bytes (combo) 1,391,836,770,942 911,484,711,406 480,352,059,536 Past 7 Days Past 30 Days Since 26 Feb 1997 - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 16,053,319 58,770,646 608,651,873 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 154,476,821 Hits (combo) 16,053,319 58,770,646 763,128,704 Bytes (FTP) 7,295,430,585,866 27,344,541,342,187 283,071,314,971,628 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 10,106,100,542,342 Bytes (combo) 7,295,430,585,866 27,344,541,342,187 293,177,415,513,870 ------- End of Forwarded Message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 8:37:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB7514E7B for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 08:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA60882; Mon, 24 May 1999 08:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 08:37:06 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: David Greenman Cc: tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive record Message-ID: <19990524083706.A60844@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <199905241423.HAA07837@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199905241423.HAA07837@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Mon, May 24, 1999 at 07:23:53AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 24, 1999 at 07:23:53AM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > As the attached stats show for yesterday (Sunday), we set another new daily > traffic record on wcarchive. Late Friday night we started testing gigabit > ethernet with CRL. We broke the 1TB threshold on Saturday with a record 1.12TB > of traffic, and then broke that the next day with an incredible 1.39TB of > file downloads. > The high numbers for linux are due to the new release of Slackware 4.0 as > well as residual effects of the Redhat 6.0 release that occured a couple of > weeks ago. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org > Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com [ DELETED ] A copy of this announcement can be found at http://www.bafug.org/NewRecord.html Now lets see if slashdot.org will post a notice in under a day. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 8:53: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BE9153FD for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 08:52:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA20030 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 18:52:45 +0300 (EEST) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:52:45 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: more userfriendly Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99may/19990523.html In what aspect is *BSD make your own? Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 8:54: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6D6153EA for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 08:54:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA90648; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:53:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Narvi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 May 1999 17:53:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: Narvi's message of "Mon, 24 May 1999 18:52:45 +0300 (EEST)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Narvi writes: > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99may/19990523.html > > In what aspect is *BSD make your own? Ever tried to install NetBSD? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 9:17: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from charleston.softhome.net (charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8582614C89 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 09:16:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bradley@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 27302 invoked by uid 417); 24 May 1999 16:38:05 -0000 Received: from central.cyberix.com (HELO brad) (207.8.199.116) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 24 May 1999 16:38:05 -0000 From: "Bradley Benson" To: Subject: RE: Music to code by Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:14:43 -0400 Message-ID: <001001bea600$88d93660$6400a8c0@brad.centralmhmr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, I spent my teen years going between blue, green, and purple, but I guess I'm getting to old for the mohawk as well. > > I've got purple hair, is that close enough? I haven't had a mohawk since > I was a teenager tho. > > --- > tani hosokawa > river styx internet > > > On Fri, 21 May 1999, Brad Benson wrote: > > > If I'm in deep contemplation I need quite, but when it comes time for a > > little music, it's usually some old school punk rock band. examples -- > > X-Ray Spex, Uk Subs, Stiff Little Fingers. I bet I'm the only > guy on this > > list who still sports a mohawk. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Eric Hodel > > > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 11:12 PM > > > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > > Subject: Music to code by > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > > > > > -- > > > Eric Hodel > > > hodeleri@seattleu.edu > > > > > > "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." > > > -- A. L. > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 9:21:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D559154F3 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 09:21:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA20358; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:21:38 +0300 (EEST) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:21:38 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24 May 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Narvi writes: > > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99may/19990523.html > > > > In what aspect is *BSD make your own? > > Ever tried to install NetBSD? No. I don't unfortunately have the disk space. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 10: 0:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D6014C35 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 10:00:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04873; Mon, 24 May 1999 11:00:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990524102043.04740100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:00:14 -0600 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Narvi From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: more userfriendly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, illiad@userfriendly.org In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org NetBSD might be that way, but FreeBSD certainly isn't. So, they really should have a separate category for FreeBSD. Picture this: a somewhat lumpy sushi roll with the top of a trident, some little red horns, and the top of a familiar little red head coming out of the top. A text balloon pointing to it says, "Mmmph! Mnmmmph!" The caption would be "FreeBSD-Maki -- colorful, devilishly fast and very fresh." I'd like to do this, but it'd be funnier if the cartoonist drew it in the same style as the others. --Brett At 05:53 PM 5/24/99 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Narvi writes: > > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99may/19990523.html > > > > In what aspect is *BSD make your own? > >Ever tried to install NetBSD? > >DES >-- >Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 10:39:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.airnet.net (unknown [216.180.30.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554E214BD4 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 10:39:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (216.180.35.166) by alpha.airnet.net (Worldmail 1.3.167); 24 May 1999 12:39:46 -0500 Message-ID: <37498EE6.EE770024@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:39:50 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Music to code by References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > On 21-May-99 Eric Hodel wrote: > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > Just to add my weird tastes: > > Insane Clown Posse, Skunk Anansie, Dog Eat Dog, Ace of Base, Any decent ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I started to stay away from these jokers when I had ~2 non-fender benders while listening to thier music. Of course, I was listening to Korn when I took the car off the road and into a field ;-). -- Kris Kirby Home UAH CS WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 10:44:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883FD14F24 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 10:44:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10855 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 10:52:19 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:52:19 -0700 (PDT) From: To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <001001bea600$88d93660$6400a8c0@brad.centralmhmr.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Time for retirement in a cozy home for the elderly? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Mon, 24 May 1999, Bradley Benson wrote: > Actually, I spent my teen years going between blue, green, and purple, but I > guess I'm getting to old for the mohawk as well. > > > > > I've got purple hair, is that close enough? I haven't had a mohawk since > > I was a teenager tho. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 10:48:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.airnet.net (unknown [216.180.30.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4413914F24 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 10:48:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (216.180.35.166) by alpha.airnet.net (Worldmail 1.3.167); 24 May 1999 12:48:13 -0500 Message-ID: <374990E2.5F56A75C@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:48:18 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein wrote: > 2 hours wasted trying to find the right way to do something in a > broken world (NT). > > hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate > hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate > hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate > > Is there a "NT-haters" mailing list anywhere? Now I know why "Head Like A Hole" comes to mind... > I'm still trying to figure out what exactly NT can be used for. Perhaps > if I turned on the GL screensaver is could make a nice conversation piece > at a party? I use 98 with the Tripex GL eye candy reading off of line-in. I'm trying to set-up a BSD box to play ~16 movies (actually a huge loop of movies [~300 MB] at different points) but my K6-2/300 isn't fast enough. Which of course means that the only free BSD box can't do it either (P-166/64M). Anybody seen a idoit's guide to sh or csh scripting? Preferably on the 'net... > use FreeBSD, it just fsck'n works. thanks, > -Alfred > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Kris Kirby Home UAH CS WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 11:36:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B6C15557 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 11:36:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA18802; Mon, 24 May 1999 13:55:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:55:39 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Kris Kirby Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <374990E2.5F56A75C@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 24 May 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > 2 hours wasted trying to find the right way to do something in a > > broken world (NT). > > > > hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate > > hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate > > hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate > > > > Is there a "NT-haters" mailing list anywhere? > > Now I know why "Head Like A Hole" comes to mind... *laff* > > I'm still trying to figure out what exactly NT can be used for. Perhaps > > if I turned on the GL screensaver is could make a nice conversation piece > > at a party? > > I use 98 with the Tripex GL eye candy reading off of line-in. I'm trying > to set-up a BSD box to play ~16 movies (actually a huge loop of movies > [~300 MB] at different points) but my K6-2/300 isn't fast enough. Which > of course means that the only free BSD box can't do it either > (P-166/64M). Anybody seen a idoit's guide to sh or csh scripting? > Preferably on the 'net... Seriously, whenever i want to see how to do something in sh, I just read /etc/rc* scripts, they are reasonably commented and layed out in such a way that makes sense. good luck, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 11:46:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC8814D26 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 11:46:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA10451; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:04:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:04:54 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive record In-Reply-To: <19990524083706.A60844@ontario.mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 24 May 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Mon, May 24, 1999 at 07:23:53AM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > > As the attached stats show for yesterday (Sunday), we set another new daily > > traffic record on wcarchive. Late Friday night we started testing gigabit > > ethernet with CRL. We broke the 1TB threshold on Saturday with a record 1.12TB > > of traffic, and then broke that the next day with an incredible 1.39TB of > > file downloads. > > The high numbers for linux are due to the new release of Slackware 4.0 as > > well as residual effects of the Redhat 6.0 release that occured a couple of > > weeks ago. > > > > -DG > > > > David Greenman > > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org > > Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com > > [ DELETED ] > > A copy of this announcement can be found at > > http://www.bafug.org/NewRecord.html > > Now lets see if slashdot.org will post a notice in under a day. s/slashdot/slashdown -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 11:50:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C9C15426 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 11:50:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA62326; Mon, 24 May 1999 11:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:48:21 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive record Message-ID: <19990524114821.A62303@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <19990524083706.A60844@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Mon, May 24, 1999 at 02:04:54PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 24, 1999 at 02:04:54PM -0500, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > On Mon, May 24, 1999 at 07:23:53AM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > > > As the attached stats show for yesterday (Sunday), we set another new daily > > > traffic record on wcarchive. Late Friday night we started testing gigabit > > > ethernet with CRL. We broke the 1TB threshold on Saturday with a record 1.12TB > > > of traffic, and then broke that the next day with an incredible 1.39TB of > > > file downloads. > > > The high numbers for linux are due to the new release of Slackware 4.0 as > > > well as residual effects of the Redhat 6.0 release that occured a couple of > > > weeks ago. > > > > > > -DG > > > > > > David Greenman > > > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org > > > Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com > > > > [ DELETED ] > > > > A copy of this announcement can be found at > > > > http://www.bafug.org/NewRecord.html > > > > Now lets see if slashdot.org will post a notice in under a day. > > s/slashdot/slashdown Perhaps we can talk them into running FreeBSD. ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 11:56:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C2215477 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 11:56:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02063; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:15:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:15:23 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive record In-Reply-To: <19990524114821.A62303@ontario.mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 24 May 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > > > > A copy of this announcement can be found at > > > > > > http://www.bafug.org/NewRecord.html > > > > > > Now lets see if slashdot.org will post a notice in under a day. > > > > s/slashdot/slashdown > > Perhaps we can talk them into running FreeBSD. ;-) that'll be the day... Not to get too personal, but the site isn't optimized at all, it would probably fall over under any OS. Of course FreeBSD doesn't fall over, all too often.. :) However, the site goes from being fast to being dead enough to make it look like an OS issue... -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 12:46:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB59514C1A for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 12:46:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07366; Mon, 24 May 1999 15:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:46:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24 May 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Ever tried to install NetBSD? I've no idea how the x86 install works but on all my NetBSD boxes its been a snap. Can't get any easier than netbooting and tar. :) -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 13:37:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB612154FD for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 13:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.1.2] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.00 #1) id 10m0Es-000PB5-00; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:18:18 +0100 (envelope-from ben@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 3.00 #1) id 10m0Eo-0000Sy-00; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:18:14 +0100 (envelope-from ben@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:18:14 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Kris Kirby Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990524201814.A1773@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <374990E2.5F56A75C@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <374990E2.5F56A75C@airnet.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby wrote: > Anybody seen a idoit's guide to sh or csh scripting? Preferably on > the 'net... http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/csh.html (and other places, I believe) Maybe not a guide to it, but you should certainly read it before writing any csh scripts :-) -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 17:15:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 164BF1537C for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:15:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20161; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:22:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:22:17 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In the "real world" tar's not usually considered to be a user friendly mechanism :) --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Mon, 24 May 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On 24 May 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Ever tried to install NetBSD? > > I've no idea how the x86 install works but on all my NetBSD boxes its been > a snap. Can't get any easier than netbooting and tar. :) > > -- > | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | > | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | > | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 17:36:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F5614EC9 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12495; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:36:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 24 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > In the "real world" tar's not usually considered to be a user friendly > mechanism :) In the real world, people don't try to run Unix on their toaster ovens either. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 17:40:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FAE914EC9 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20831; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:48:04 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:48:04 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don't get so upset just because you don't have as slick an installation as some other OS. The *BSD are good for what they're designed for. Be content with that. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Mon, 24 May 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > In the "real world" tar's not usually considered to be a user friendly > > mechanism :) > > In the real world, people don't try to run Unix on their toaster ovens > either. > > -- > | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | > | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | > | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 17:42:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ECB014EC9 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12623; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:42:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 24 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > Don't get so upset just because you don't have as slick an > installation as some other OS. The *BSD are good for what they're > designed for. Be content with that. I don't know about you but I kind of liked the install on 1.1.5. Who is upset? -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 17:46:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0577E14F29 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:46:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21030; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:54:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:54:17 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, the toaster comment sounded upset. Actually, it sounded like the beginning of one of those "BSD is not a desktop OS, so it shouldn't have to try to be like a desktop OS" arguments. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Mon, 24 May 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > Don't get so upset just because you don't have as slick an > > installation as some other OS. The *BSD are good for what they're > > designed for. Be content with that. > > I don't know about you but I kind of liked the install on 1.1.5. > > Who is upset? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 17:50:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52CF150B4 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12874; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:50:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 24 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > Well, the toaster comment sounded upset. Actually, it sounded like > the beginning of one of those "BSD is not a desktop OS, so it > shouldn't have to try to be like a desktop OS" arguments. Well, you have to understand that NetBSD users -do- run Unix on their toasters/space heaters. I was being completly serious. | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 17:53:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C3AC15464 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 17:53:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21227; Mon, 24 May 1999 18:01:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:01:35 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ah.. wasn't aware. I haven't been even remotely involved in that kind of stuff in years. *shudder* --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Mon, 24 May 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > Well, the toaster comment sounded upset. Actually, it sounded like > > the beginning of one of those "BSD is not a desktop OS, so it > > shouldn't have to try to be like a desktop OS" arguments. > > Well, you have to understand that NetBSD users -do- run Unix on their > toasters/space heaters. > > I was being completly serious. > > | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | > | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | > | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 18:26:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA69B14D62 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 18:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25400; Mon, 24 May 1999 21:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:26:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Kris Kirby Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <37498EE6.EE770024@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think it might be just time for a few driving lessons instead of a change in music. ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 24 May 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > > > On 21-May-99 Eric Hodel wrote: > > > Does anyone have a particular music that they prefer to code by? > > > > Just to add my weird tastes: > > > > Insane Clown Posse, Skunk Anansie, Dog Eat Dog, Ace of Base, Any decent > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I started to stay away from these jokers when I had ~2 non-fender > benders while listening to thier music. Of course, I was listening to > Korn when I took the car off the road and into a field ;-). > > -- > Kris Kirby > Home UAH CS > WWW > ------------------------------------------- > TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 18:31:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498B914D62 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 18:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25438; Mon, 24 May 1999 21:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:31:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: more userfriendly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey! I resemble that remark...well seriously...yah NetBSD runs on so many old platforms. A Coworker at Stevens Tech says "NetBSD, more ports than a cheap whore." -P ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 24 May 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > Well, the toaster comment sounded upset. Actually, it sounded like > > the beginning of one of those "BSD is not a desktop OS, so it > > shouldn't have to try to be like a desktop OS" arguments. > > Well, you have to understand that NetBSD users -do- run Unix on their > toasters/space heaters. > > I was being completly serious. > > | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | > | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | > | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19: 0:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maxcow.borg.com (MaxCow.borg.com [205.217.206.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6896D1532B for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@borg.com) Received: from mail.borg.com (mail.borg.com [205.217.206.192]) by maxcow.borg.com (8.9.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28739; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:00:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from borg.com (ip4b.borg.com [208.3.181.4]) by mail.borg.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA24027; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <374A05E0.2F060363@borg.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:07:28 -0400 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Viren R. Shah" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: <199905241406.KAA08878@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least a 300 Mhz machine. Its actually pretty boring work. Best thing to do is put the job in the background, put ppp in auto mode, and let the machine do the dialing when it needs to and dont worry about it. ET and I work talking the other day. :) "Viren R. Shah" wrote: > > Just a FYI: > > SETI@Home now allows people to join teams. There is already a "Team > FreeBSD" : > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/cgi?cmd=team_show&id=505 > > Viren > -- > Viren R. Shah > "You are about as sharp as a sack of wet mice" > -- Foghorn Leghorn > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19: 3:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94111545A for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15891; Tue, 25 May 1999 11:33:35 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <374A05E0.2F060363@borg.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:33:34 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: "Mark S. Reichman" Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Viren R. Shah" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-May-99 Mark S. Reichman wrote: > I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. > Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable > Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least a > 300 Mhz machine. Its a Pentium II 350. Actually, 3 of them, and probably will go up to 6 today :) > Its actually pretty boring work. Best thing to do is put the > job in the background, put ppp in auto mode, and let the > machine do the dialing when it needs to and dont worry about it. Or get a permanent link 8-) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19: 5:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 21CAE154AD for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 12743 invoked by alias); 25 May 1999 02:05:25 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 12719 invoked by uid 0); 25 May 1999 02:05:24 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 May 1999 02:05:24 -0000 Message-ID: <374A055B.69A70243@uswest.net> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:05:15 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kirby Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Music to code by References: <37498EE6.EE770024@airnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> Insane Clown Posse, Skunk Anansie, Dog Eat Dog, Ace of Base, Any decent > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I started to stay away from these jokers when I had ~2 non-fender > benders while listening to thier music. Of course, I was listening to > Korn when I took the car off the road and into a field ;-). Suggestion: Don't headbang while driving. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19: 9:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcow.borg.com (madcow.borg.com [205.217.206.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE39F1545A for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@borg.com) Received: from mail.borg.com (mail.borg.com [205.217.206.192]) by madcow.borg.com (8.9.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21818; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from borg.com (ip4b.borg.com [208.3.181.4]) by mail.borg.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA25728; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <374A07F5.D916D79B@borg.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:16:21 -0400 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I was on top of the list for about 2 minutes. Then a a fourth memeber joined and blew me out of the water. To bad I dont have access to my computer network a college anymore. Hrmmm... I could pay my alumni fee. That would give me twenty or so computers to play with. Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 25-May-99 Mark S. Reichman wrote: > > I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. > > Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable > > Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least a > > 300 Mhz machine. > > Its a Pentium II 350. > Actually, 3 of them, and probably will go up to 6 today :) > > > Its actually pretty boring work. Best thing to do is put the > > job in the background, put ppp in auto mode, and let the > > machine do the dialing when it needs to and dont worry about it. > > Or get a permanent link 8-) > > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:16:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C99D154C6 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:16:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 19787 invoked by alias); 25 May 1999 02:16:41 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 19766 invoked by uid 0); 25 May 1999 02:16:41 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 May 1999 02:16:41 -0000 Message-ID: <374A07FF.C79B4E44@uswest.net> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:16:31 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mark S. Reichman" Cc: "Viren R. Shah" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: <199905241406.KAA08878@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> <374A05E0.2F060363@borg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mark S. Reichman" wrote: > > I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. > Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable > Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least a > 300 Mhz machine. A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's both disgusting and hilarious. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:18:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB292154C6 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:18:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15982; Tue, 25 May 1999 11:48:17 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <374A07FF.C79B4E44@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:48:17 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Darren Pilgrim Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Viren R. Shah" , "Mark S. Reichman" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-May-99 Darren Pilgrim wrote: > A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per > unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last > work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's both > disgusting and hilarious. I think thats mainly because the Windows client spends a LONG time drawing the pretty graphics.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:22:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6E0154C6 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip187.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.187]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F34370AF; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA03646; Mon, 24 May 1999 21:24:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:24:10 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990524212410.C3311@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <37498EE6.EE770024@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: <37498EE6.EE770024@airnet.net>; from Kris Kirby on Mon, May 24, 1999 at 12:39:50PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 24, 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > I started to stay away from these jokers when I had ~2 non-fender > benders while listening to thier music. Of course, I was listening to > Korn when I took the car off the road and into a field ;-). Are you watching the videos for your favorite songs on a portable TV of some sort? If this is the case, you may often not see the road and, due to this condition, not be able to follow it, hitting other cars, people, or large fields, camoflaged enough so that people watching TVs cannot see them until it's too late. -- Chris Costello I am the computer your mother warned you about. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:25: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C4D14E16 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25773; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:24:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:24:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: "Mark S. Reichman" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Viren R. Shah" Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've got a dual PII333, a dual PII266, a PII450, a Pentium 90, another pentium 90 and a temporary pII266 (soon to be moved to a P166MMX) running it, but I'm on the seti@srh.org team. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 25 May 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 25-May-99 Mark S. Reichman wrote: > > I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. > > Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable > > Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least a > > 300 Mhz machine. > > Its a Pentium II 350. > Actually, 3 of them, and probably will go up to 6 today :) > > > Its actually pretty boring work. Best thing to do is put the > > job in the background, put ppp in auto mode, and let the > > machine do the dialing when it needs to and dont worry about it. > > Or get a permanent link 8-) > > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:30:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9612E1505D for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:30:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 6209 invoked from network); 25 May 1999 02:30:02 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 25 May 1999 02:30:02 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:29:43 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: <374A07FF.C79B4E44@uswest.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > "Mark S. Reichman" wrote: > > > I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. > > Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable > > Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least > > a 300 Mhz machine. > > A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per > unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last > work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's > both disgusting and hilarious. Yeah, my Celeron 416MHz at home under Windreck (it's the games machine, can't you guess?) takes about 33 hrs per work unit, my P166 here running 3.1 (it's idprio'd, but admittedly it's a lightly loaded machine at present) takes a similar 28-30 hrs. What I can't figure out yet is the PII - 233 which has so far taken 140 hrs to complete 93% of a work unit. It's got 64MB of RAM so it shouldn't be slow, and it's running as a screen saver with nothing else happening on the machine - obviously this is a windreck machine as well. I'm not sure if it's breaking the rules to have the couple of windows machines here participating in TeamFreeBSD. I'm temporarily top of the team list, but I'm sure that won't last once someone with a real room of machines joins in. What impresses me is the people on the overall top users list who have 1900 outstanding work units but only 200 received. Obviously there's 1500-2000 machines across most of a university all running the screen saver under the single email address. BTW, what "category" is TeamFreeBSD? A club? -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:38:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB8914D51 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:38:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16113; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:08:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:08:16 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Craig Harding Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-May-99 Craig Harding wrote: > BTW, what "category" is TeamFreeBSD? A club? Yup. Its team number is 505. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:41:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 79C4914F03 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:41:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 6241 invoked from network); 25 May 1999 02:41:25 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 25 May 1999 02:41:25 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:41:06 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz References: <374A07FF.C79B4E44@uswest.net> In-reply-to: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990525024127.79C4914F03@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig Harding wrote: > [...stuff deleted...] The other interesting thing is this from the gaussians page: 15.471077 0.852203 0.055084 08ja99aa.16286.917.279268.148 \ Mon May 24 04:29:28 1999 ThomasChang thomas@megatime.com.tw The first number is score, followed by power and fit. Score is power/fit, obviously with fit lower is better. It's a weak signal but very consistent with the 12second window at Arecibo - wonder if it's one of their (= setiathome's) test signals. I hope when these kinds of things are spotted they have a look and put some result investigation page up. I guess at the moment they're too busy with the initial setup phase of the project. Hmm, freebsd-seti anyone? -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:43:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcow.borg.com (madcow.borg.com [205.217.206.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4941914F03 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@borg.com) Received: from mail.borg.com (mail.borg.com [205.217.206.192]) by madcow.borg.com (8.9.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22580; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from borg.com (ip4b.borg.com [208.3.181.4]) by mail.borg.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA02551; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <374A0FD6.B2162D40@borg.com> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:49:58 -0400 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig Harding wrote: > > Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > > "Mark S. Reichman" wrote: > > > > > I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. > > > Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable > > > Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least > > > a 300 Mhz machine. > > > > A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per > > unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last > > work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's > > both disgusting and hilarious. > What I can't figure out yet is the PII - 233 which has so far taken > 140 hrs to complete 93% of a work unit. It's got 64MB of RAM so it > shouldn't be slow, and it's running as a screen saver with nothing > else happening on the machine - obviously this is a windreck machine > as well. > I am not windows weenie, but cant you control how much CPU is used "in the backgroud" on a windows machine? Prolly in Control Panel somewhere or each process has its own settings. Maybe your background CPU usage setting is low. I'm taking a guess here. I only play quake on my Windows machine dont really use it that much > I'm not sure if it's breaking the rules to have the couple of windows > machines here participating in TeamFreeBSD. I dont know of any rules, but ... :) > BTW, what "category" is TeamFreeBSD? A club? > > -- C. > -- > Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd > "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:49:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4883014F03 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA05339; Mon, 24 May 1999 22:49:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199905250249.WAA05339@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: from Daniel O'Connor at "May 25, 99 12:08:16 pm" To: doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote, > > On 25-May-99 Craig Harding wrote: > > BTW, what "category" is TeamFreeBSD? A club? > > Yup. Its team number is 505. I put in the machines I have running it, CPU: Pentium II (quarter-micron) (398.27-MHz 686-class CPU) CPU: Pentium II/Xeon/Celeron (333.27-MHz 686-class CPU) CPU: Pentium II (232.67-MHz 686-class CPU) The 400 MHz is my home machine running a 'niced' setiathome 24/7. The other two are at the office and run setiathome overnight. I'm in the lead. ;P Did everyone have setiathome troubles over the weekend? All of my machines reported connections timing out. I wish they'd put up a blessed IRIX version. I have a dual processor Octane idling away overnight... but I wouldn't feel right adding those to the FreeBSD team. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:55:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE1F1556D for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:55:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16324; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:25:00 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905250249.WAA05339@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:25:00 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: cjclark@home.com Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-May-99 Crist J. Clark wrote: > Did everyone have setiathome troubles over the weekend? All of my > machines reported connections timing out. Yeah, I think they where reorganising stuff.. > I wish they'd put up a blessed IRIX version. I have a dual processor > Octane idling away overnight... but I wouldn't feel right adding those > to the FreeBSD team. Ahh, but the FreeBSD team is 'FreeBSD users and advocates' - doesn't say anything about FreeBSD being used for the actual work :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 19:58:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DEEFD15574 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 19:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 15071 invoked by alias); 25 May 1999 02:58:43 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 15043 invoked by uid 0); 25 May 1999 02:58:42 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 May 1999 02:58:42 -0000 Message-ID: <374A11D8.3B34029A@uswest.net> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:58:32 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mark S. Reichman" Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> <374A0FD6.B2162D40@borg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mark S. Reichman" wrote: > Craig Harding wrote: >> Darren Pilgrim wrote: >>> "Mark S. Reichman" wrote: >>>> I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. >>>> Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable >>>> Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least >>>> a 300 Mhz machine. >>> >>> A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per >>> unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last >>> work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's >>> both disgusting and hilarious. >> >> What I can't figure out yet is the PII - 233 which has so far taken >> 140 hrs to complete 93% of a work unit. It's got 64MB of RAM so it >> shouldn't be slow, and it's running as a screen saver with nothing >> else happening on the machine - obviously this is a windreck machine >> as well. > > I am not windows weenie, but cant you control how much CPU is used > "in the backgroud" on a windows machine? Prolly in Control Panel > somewhere or each process has its own settings. Maybe your background > CPU usage setting is low. I'm taking a guess here. I only play quake > on my Windows machine dont really use it that much There are process priority levels in Win9x. But they doesn't let you limit the amount of CPU time each process uses, just in what order the things should be processed. I'm not sure about NT. On that note, is there are a way a put a limit on the load a process creates under FreeBSD? It would be great if I could leave S@h running all the time under a load limit, then just lift that limit while I'm not using the machine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 20: 2:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1768415574 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:02:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16388; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:32:35 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <374A11D8.3B34029A@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:32:35 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Darren Pilgrim Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz, "Mark S. Reichman" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-May-99 Darren Pilgrim wrote: > On that note, is there are a way a put a limit on the load a process > creates under FreeBSD? It would be great if I could leave S@h running > all the time under a load limit, then just lift that limit while I'm > not using the machine. You can give it an idle priority (idprio) which basically means it is always chosen last for CPU. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 20: 2:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E22915596 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA17751; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <374A129D.1C6129C0@seattleu.edu> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:01:49 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mark S. Reichman" Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> <374A0FD6.B2162D40@borg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mark S. Reichman" wrote: > I am not windows weenie, but cant you control how much CPU is used > "in the backgroud" on a windows machine? Prolly in Control Panel > somewhere or each process has its own settings. Maybe your background > CPU usage setting is low. I'm taking a guess here. I only play quake > on my Windows machine dont really use it that much Try "wintop.exe" it is in the Kernel Toys package (good luck finding it on the M$ site.) Unfortunately it only lets you set the priority level of the process, low, medium high and always, or something like that. -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 20:13: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FFEF14D5C for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:12:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 6349 invoked from network); 25 May 1999 03:12:55 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 25 May 1999 03:12:55 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:12:36 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: dpilgrim@uswest.net In-reply-to: <374A11D8.3B34029A@uswest.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990525031301.0FFEF14D5C@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > On that note, is there are a way a put a limit on the load a process > creates under FreeBSD? It would be great if I could leave S@h > running all the time under a load limit, then just lift that limit > while I'm not using the machine. Have a look at idprio (man idprio), it'll probably do you want. I've been meaning to put some basic scripts together to idprio it in the morning and un-idprio it at night, but haven't quite got round to it. -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 20:15: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4509014D5C for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16449; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:44:42 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990525031301.0FFEF14D5C@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:44:42 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Craig Harding Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Cc: dpilgrim@uswest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-May-99 Craig Harding wrote: > > running all the time under a load limit, then just lift that limit > > while I'm not using the machine. > Have a look at idprio (man idprio), it'll probably do you want. I've > been meaning to put some basic scripts together to idprio it in the > morning and un-idprio it at night, but haven't quite got round to it. IMHO its not worth the hassle.. I just edited the startup script to idprio it and left it at that. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 20:54:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C18715063 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:54:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA05538; Mon, 24 May 1999 23:54:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199905250354.XAA05538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: from Daniel O'Connor at "May 25, 99 12:44:42 pm" To: doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, dpilgrim@uswest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote, > > On 25-May-99 Craig Harding wrote: > > > running all the time under a load limit, then just lift that limit > > > while I'm not using the machine. > > Have a look at idprio (man idprio), it'll probably do you want. I've > > been meaning to put some basic scripts together to idprio it in the > > morning and un-idprio it at night, but haven't quite got round to it. > > IMHO its not worth the hassle.. > I just edited the startup script to idprio it and left it at that. Is there a reason not to use setiathome's '-nice' switch and just nice it to a low priority? I think that would be good enough for most people. Also, I believe idpro requires root privileges; nice does not. I'd rather not use root when I don't need to. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 21: 2: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64D815063 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 21:02:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16744; Tue, 25 May 1999 13:31:42 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905250354.XAA05538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:31:42 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: cjclark@home.com Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dpilgrim@uswest.net, crh@outpost.co.nz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-May-99 Crist J. Clark wrote: > Is there a reason not to use setiathome's '-nice' switch and just nice > it to a low priority? I think that would be good enough for most > people. Also, I believe idpro requires root privileges; nice does > not. I'd rather not use root when I don't need to. I run it like this -> idprio ${seti_nice} su -m ${seti_user} -c \ "(cd ${seti_wrkdir}/${i} && exec ${PREFIX}/bin/setiathome -email 2>&1 >/dev/null &)" So it still runs as nobody. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 21:34:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3881512D; Mon, 24 May 1999 21:34:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA03065; Mon, 24 May 1999 23:34:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:34:33 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Eivind Eklund Cc: CONDOR , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: secure deletion Message-ID: <19990524233433.D10261@futuresouth.com> References: <01BEA2F3.8E3149A0.condor@inreach.com> <19990521141308.A85583@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990521141308.A85583@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Fri, May 21, 1999 at 02:13:09PM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 02:13:09PM +0200, a little birdie told me that Eivind Eklund remarked > > You want to run them through a microwave oven first. This will break > the recording material (not the plastic) into approx 1 inch long > areas, using a neat pattern of lightning to do it (I'm not kidding). > > No prize but passing your physics class if you can say why it goes to > approx an inch long pieces, and all the effects then stop. Wavelength of the (appropriately named) microwaves? Microwaves use radio waves at the fundamental frequency of water, no? -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller MF4839 http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 21:45: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F16814E91 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 21:44:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA05674; Tue, 25 May 1999 00:45:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199905250445.AAA05674@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: from Daniel O'Connor at "May 25, 99 01:31:42 pm" To: doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 00:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Cc: cjclark@home.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dpilgrim@uswest.net, crh@outpost.co.nz Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote, > > On 25-May-99 Crist J. Clark wrote: > > Is there a reason not to use setiathome's '-nice' switch and just nice > > it to a low priority? I think that would be good enough for most > > people. Also, I believe idpro requires root privileges; nice does > > not. I'd rather not use root when I don't need to. > > I run it like this -> > idprio ${seti_nice} su -m ${seti_user} -c \ > "(cd ${seti_wrkdir}/${i} && exec ${PREFIX}/bin/setiathome -email 2>&1 >/dev/null > &)" This reminds me... ^^^^^ Does the '-email' switch work properly for everyone else? When I was having the 'connection timed out' errors this weekend, I was getting them in cron emails generated from stderr output. From the README/manpage for setiathome, -email Send email (to login email address) on errors. Useful if you run in background directed to /dev/null. I've never gotten mail from setiathome. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 21:48:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A5214E91; Mon, 24 May 1999 21:48:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA05700; Tue, 25 May 1999 00:48:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199905250448.AAA05700@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: secure deletion In-Reply-To: <19990524233433.D10261@futuresouth.com> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at "May 24, 99 11:34:33 pm" To: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 00:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: eivind@FreeBSD.ORG, condor@inreach.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew D. Fuller wrote, > On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 02:13:09PM +0200, a little birdie told me > that Eivind Eklund remarked > > > > You want to run them through a microwave oven first. This will break > > the recording material (not the plastic) into approx 1 inch long > > areas, using a neat pattern of lightning to do it (I'm not kidding). > > > > No prize but passing your physics class if you can say why it goes to > > approx an inch long pieces, and all the effects then stop. > > Wavelength of the (appropriately named) microwaves? > > Microwaves use radio waves at the fundamental frequency of water, no? No. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 21:49:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9075714E91 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 21:49:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16967; Tue, 25 May 1999 14:17:43 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905250445.AAA05674@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:17:43 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: cjclark@home.com Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, dpilgrim@uswest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-May-99 Crist J. Clark wrote: > Does the '-email' switch work properly for everyone else? When I was > having the 'connection timed out' errors this weekend, I was getting > them in cron emails generated from stderr output. From the > README/manpage for setiathome, > > -email > Send email (to login email address) on errors. > Useful if you run in background directed to /dev/null. > > I've never gotten mail from setiathome. No neither have I and I got errors on stderr :( (Not very useful ones either.. IMHO it would be nice for it to log to a file properly) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 23:37: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apotheosis.za.org (apotheosis.za.org [137.158.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F500152FB for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 23:33:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lonewolf@apotheosis.za.org) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:33:06 +0200 From: Lonewolf To: cjclark@home.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Message-ID: <19990525083306.A23062@apotheosis.za.org> References: <199905250445.AAA05674@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199905250445.AAA05674@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>; from "Crist J. Clark" on Tue, May 25, 1999 at 12:45:07AM Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 25, 1999 at 12:45:07AM -0400, Crist J. Clark wrote: > This reminds me... ^^^^^ > > Does the '-email' switch work properly for everyone else? When I was > having the 'connection timed out' errors this weekend, I was getting > them in cron emails generated from stderr output. From the > README/manpage for setiathome, > > -email > Send email (to login email address) on errors. > Useful if you run in background directed to /dev/null. > > I've never gotten mail from setiathome. The SETI@home client looks for sendmail in /usr/lib, but FreeBSD has sendmail in /usr/sbin. Just create a symlink to sort it out. Hopefully this will be fixed in the next client. ~$ strings setiathome-1.1.i386-unknown-freebsd3.1/setiathome | grep sendmail /usr/lib/sendmail %s < %s ~$ ls /usr/lib/sendmail ls: /usr/lib/sendmail: No such file or directory ~$ which sendmail /usr/sbin/sendmail -- lonewolf@apotheosis.za.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 24 23:43:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476C114D38 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 23:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id XAA27669; Mon, 24 May 1999 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT) From: rick hamell To: Eric Hodel Cc: "Mark S. Reichman" , crh@outpost.co.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: <374A129D.1C6129C0@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Try "wintop.exe" it is in the Kernel Toys package (good luck finding > it on the M$ site.) HeHe... it's on ftp.cdrom.com :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 0:27:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA22D153AD for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 00:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11547; Tue, 25 May 1999 00:27:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd011525; Tue May 25 00:27:12 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA16397; Tue, 25 May 1999 00:27:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905250727.AAA16397@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: more userfriendly To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 07:27:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at May 24, 99 06:52:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99may/19990523.html > > In what aspect is *BSD make your own? I like to think that this is a backhanded reference to the cartoon in which a FreeBSD box is turned into a "Linux" box by changing the splash screen... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 0:36:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6684153AD for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 00:36:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14384; Tue, 25 May 1999 00:36:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd014296; Tue May 25 00:35:55 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA16869; Tue, 25 May 1999 00:35:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905250735.AAA16869@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! To: crh@outpost.co.nz Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 07:35:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> from "Craig Harding" at May 25, 99 02:29:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What I can't figure out yet is the PII - 233 which has so far taken > 140 hrs to complete 93% of a work unit. It's got 64MB of RAM so it > shouldn't be slow, and it's running as a screen saver with nothing > else happening on the machine - obviously this is a windreck machine > as well. It's probably verifying that it has, in fact, detected short Vulcans... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 4:43:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 87C4F14DA1 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 04:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 13872 invoked by alias); 25 May 1999 11:43:25 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 13831 invoked by uid 0); 25 May 1999 11:43:25 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 May 1999 11:43:25 -0000 Message-ID: <374A8CD9.F399E3C2@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 04:43:21 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz, "Mark S. Reichman" Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 25-May-99 Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > On that note, is there are a way a put a limit on the load a process > > creates under FreeBSD? It would be great if I could leave S@h running > > all the time under a load limit, then just lift that limit while I'm > > not using the machine. > > You can give it an idle priority (idprio) which basically means it is always > chosen last for CPU. idprio seems to have the effect I was aiming for--there's hardly any performance hit on the rest of the system/software--but the load is considerably higher than I had wanted for running it during business hours. I think idprio has a good chance of working. Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 4:46:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6838014DA1 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 04:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28741; Tue, 25 May 1999 07:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 07:46:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Craig Harding Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually the large number discrepancy is due to the fact that the SETI@HOME people switched the clients in the middle, they allowed 0.7 clients to download work units, and when they finished them, told them to get the 1.1 client, and never took the work units. Our team had a ton of them. Not to mention the fact we had a bunch of high powered SGI machines working on SETI too, and they neglected to compile an SGI mips version. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 25 May 1999, Craig Harding wrote: > Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > > "Mark S. Reichman" wrote: > > > > > I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. > > > Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable > > > Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least > > > a 300 Mhz machine. > > > > A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per > > unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last > > work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's > > both disgusting and hilarious. > > Yeah, my Celeron 416MHz at home under Windreck (it's the games > machine, can't you guess?) takes about 33 hrs per work unit, my P166 > here running 3.1 (it's idprio'd, but admittedly it's a lightly loaded > machine at present) takes a similar 28-30 hrs. > > What I can't figure out yet is the PII - 233 which has so far taken > 140 hrs to complete 93% of a work unit. It's got 64MB of RAM so it > shouldn't be slow, and it's running as a screen saver with nothing > else happening on the machine - obviously this is a windreck machine > as well. > > I'm not sure if it's breaking the rules to have the couple of windows > machines here participating in TeamFreeBSD. I'm temporarily top of > the team list, but I'm sure that won't last once someone with a real > room of machines joins in. What impresses me is the people on the > overall top users list who have 1900 outstanding work units but only > 200 received. Obviously there's 1500-2000 machines across most of a > university all running the screen saver under the single email > address. > > BTW, what "category" is TeamFreeBSD? A club? > > -- C. > -- > Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd > "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 4:55: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www1.interdestination.net (www1.interdestination.net [209.12.127.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB54714D8E for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 04:54:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zapper@idsmail.com) Received: from idsmail.com (Zapper@home.zapper.org [209.136.139.35]) by www1.interdestination.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA18891 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 07:08:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <374A8EA6.95F3ACF0@idsmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 06:51:02 -0500 From: MarkBarthelemy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: New IRC Net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A4DE2F906B42839A65263F83" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --------------A4DE2F906B42839A65263F83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr. Hubbard, We'd like to announce a new IRC network, and our support for the FreeBSD community at large. I understand that some of the major networks have certain issues that may be of religious discontent to some, and then there are issues of maturity on those networks. If you're interested, you can find us at irc.darkchar.net in Channel #FreeBSD. There are just a few of us there at the moment, but we're hoping it will build quickly, and hopefully you'll be willing to help us reach that goal. Respectfully Mark Barthelemy (aka Zapper) NetAdmin FreeBSD zapper@zapper.org 3.2-STABLE FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE Good luck with this! I don't know where IRC related things are usually announced, but can suggest that maybe you want to bring it up in chat@freebsd.org, at the very least? - Jordan ... Didn't want everyone to think we were trying to spam, hence the copy of the email to sent to Jordan and his reply. Mark Barthelemy (aka Zapper) NetAdmin FreeBSD zapper@zapper.org 3.2-STABLE FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE --------------A4DE2F906B42839A65263F83 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr. Hubbard,

  We'd like to announce a new IRC network, and  our support for the FreeBSD community at large.   I understand that some of the major
networks have certain issues that may be of religious discontent to some, and then there are issues of maturity on those networks.  If
you're interested, you can find us at irc.darkchar.net in Channel #FreeBSD.   There are just a few of us there at the moment, but we're
hoping it will build quickly, and hopefully you'll be willing to help us reach that goal.

Respectfully

Mark Barthelemy (aka Zapper)
NetAdmin

FreeBSD zapper@zapper.org 3.2-STABLE FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE
 
 
 

Good luck with this!  I don't know where IRC related things are usually announced, but can suggest that maybe you want to bring it
up in chat@freebsd.org, at the very least?

- Jordan
 

... Didn't want everyone to think we were trying to spam, hence the copy of the email to sent to Jordan and his reply.

Mark Barthelemy (aka Zapper)
NetAdmin

FreeBSD zapper@zapper.org 3.2-STABLE FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE --------------A4DE2F906B42839A65263F83-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 5:31:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.visi.com (baal.visi.com [209.98.98.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F8614D74 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 05:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mestery@visi.com) Received: from isis.visi.com (mestery@isis.visi.com [209.98.98.8]) by mail.visi.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) with ESMTP id HAA16725 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 07:31:12 -0500 (CDT) Posted-Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 07:31:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 07:31:11 -0500 (CDT) From: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: SETI teams Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I noticed there are two FreeBSD SETI teams, freebsd and 'team freebsd.' We need to consolidate. I think the 4 members of freebsd should join 'team freebsd', as there are more members there. We could really use Jordan's 100+ work units! -- Kyle Mestery | StorageTek's Storage Networking Group mestery@visi.com | http://www.freebsd.org/ mestery@netwinder.org | http://www.netwinder.org/ Protect your right to privacy: www.freecrypto.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 5:54: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (unknown [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD0914F31 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 05:54:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29979; Tue, 25 May 1999 07:55:14 -0400 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma029975; Tue, 25 May 99 11:54:57 GMT Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12131; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA63090; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905251253.IAA63090@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: References: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel O'Connor writes: Daniel> On 25-May-99 Craig Harding wrote: >> BTW, what "category" is TeamFreeBSD? A club? Daniel> Yup. Its team number is 505. I got this in the mail today morning, so most people will need to join again: Dear SETI@home user: We recently added a "team" mechanism to SETI@home. During the testing phase, some users were added to the wrong teams. We fixed the problem and, to keep our statistics correct, we removed all members from teams. We also changed user passwords. So if you joined a SETI@home team, please go back to the site to get your new password: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/get_passwd.html and then join your team again: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/team.html Viren -- Viren Shah {viren@rstcorp.com} {http://www.rstcorp.com/~vshah/} "I met a girl who sang the blues, and I asked her for some happy news, but she just smiled and turned away." -- Don McLean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 6:14:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B84115693 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 06:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id PAA25831 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:14:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15469 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:14:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:14:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Marius, Something that might be of interest? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org fsck'ing spammers. any suggestions as to anything we can do to kill this? --- Marius Bendiksen, ScanCall AS ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 21/05/99 18:41:11 Pacific Daylight Time From: vanessa.carlisle@surprise.dircon.co.uk To: mbendiks@eunet.no Subject: Marius, Something that might be of interest? Dear Marius, Have you seen this story on an exclusive Silicon.com poll? It says that Linux is ready for corporate use - you can see the full thing at http://www.silicon.com/linuxspecial The survey, which marks the start of Silicon's week-long Linux Special, found that 71 per cent of viewers believe Linux is ready for business, while only 25 per cent disagreed. There's a whole Linux Special running this week on the site (http://www.silicon.com/linuxspecial) - exclusive interviews with people like Eric Raymond, Miguel de Icaza and so on.... probably worth a look. Vanessa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 6:20:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4174515648 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 06:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id PAA29473; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:20:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15511; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:20:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:20:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , unknown@riverstyx.net, bright@rush.net, hodeleri@seattleu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The music helps shut out other distractions, and, depenending on what > you listen to, has either a soothing or calming effect or ups your > adrenaline. It works just fine, as long as you stay away from music > with involved lyrics (opera is particularly bad). This has been my experience, too. When I really need to concentrate, I usually stick some black metal in there, as the lyrics there are usually quite unintelligible, amongst other things. Dimmu Borgir has a very relaxing effect, while still upping your adrenaline at high volumes, and doesn't draw any attention to itself. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 7:29:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8D215745 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 07:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 74F60403A; Tue, 25 May 1999 10:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2FCDF9A8D; Tue, 25 May 1999 10:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:29:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: "Mark S. Reichman" , "Viren R. Shah" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: <199905250221.WAA08596@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 24 May 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: :A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per :unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last :work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's both :disgusting and hilarious. You've got other problems somewhere. My K6/233 in Win98 processes a block in ~29 hours. In 3.2-R it takes ~19 hours. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 8:54:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580C515105 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA06918; Tue, 25 May 1999 11:54:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199905251554.LAA06918@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: <374A8CD9.F399E3C2@uswest.net> from Darren Pilgrim at "May 25, 99 04:43:21 am" To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Darren Pilgrim) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Cc: doconnor@gsoft.com.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz, mark@borg.com Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote, > Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > > > On 25-May-99 Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > > On that note, is there are a way a put a limit on the load a process > > > creates under FreeBSD? It would be great if I could leave S@h running > > > all the time under a load limit, then just lift that limit while I'm > > > not using the machine. > > > > You can give it an idle priority (idprio) which basically means it is always > > chosen last for CPU. > > idprio seems to have the effect I was aiming for--there's hardly any > performance hit on the rest of the system/software--but the load is > considerably higher than I had wanted for running it during business > hours. I think idprio has a good chance of working. Thanks. Load does not tell you a whole lot about performance if processes are prioritized appropriately. Who cares if setiathome is waiting for processor cycles (adding to load), but not taking any time away from processes in the "foreground" (not really impacting CPU usage of work-related stuff)? Just because your load is always >1 when setiathome is quietly waiting to take otherwise unused CPU cycles does not mean other processes are losing any. That all said, I do kill setiathome during work hours (on work machines). However, it has nothing to do with CPU usage. setiathome eats about 14 MB of memory. On my 64 MB RAM PC here at work, that's enough to cause some swapping, and _that_ can hit performance. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 9: 1:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F74152C9 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 09:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA94629; Tue, 25 May 1999 18:00:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: cjclark@home.com Cc: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Darren Pilgrim), doconnor@gsoft.com.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz, mark@borg.com Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: <199905251554.LAA06918@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 May 1999 18:00:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Crist J. Clark"'s message of "Tue, 25 May 1999 11:54:41 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" writes: > That all said, I do kill setiathome during work hours (on work > machines). However, it has nothing to do with CPU usage. setiathome > eats about 14 MB of memory. On my 64 MB RAM PC here at work, that's > enough to cause some swapping, and _that_ can hit performance. Just SIGSTOP it. It'll get swapped out if you run low on memory. Then SIGCONT it when you leave work. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 10:31:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAD314F35; Tue, 25 May 1999 10:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from [158.152.46.40] (helo=ragnet.demon.co.uk) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10mL2B-000IHD-0K; Tue, 25 May 1999 17:30:36 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10mBYQ-0006q0-00; Tue, 25 May 1999 08:23:14 +0100 Content-Length: 1288 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990524233433.D10261@futuresouth.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:23:14 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: secure deletion Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, CONDOR , Eivind Eklund Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-May-99 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Fri, May 21, 1999 at 02:13:09PM +0200, a little birdie told me > that Eivind Eklund remarked >> >> You want to run them through a microwave oven first. This will break >> the recording material (not the plastic) into approx 1 inch long >> areas, using a neat pattern of lightning to do it (I'm not kidding). >> >> No prize but passing your physics class if you can say why it goes to >> approx an inch long pieces, and all the effects then stop. > > Wavelength of the (appropriately named) microwaves? > > Microwaves use radio waves at the fundamental frequency of water, no? Microwaves operate in the 2.4GHz ISM band, just like 802.11 wireless LAN. Water resonates at about 20GHz, but with a low enough Q that the 2.4GHz gets the molecules moving. One major reason for not operating at 20GHz is that meat/food is very reflective to 20GHz (I can lookup the complex permativity for you if you need it) so that microwaves don't get into the food. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 12: 9:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1562158E0 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06263 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:09:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Who has the best mascot? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.jurai.net/~winter/tr/darth_chuck.jpg Nothing compares to the power of the Dark Side of the Force. :) -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 12:40:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 647991544E for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id UAA25822; Tue, 25 May 1999 20:43:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01923; Tue, 25 May 1999 20:10:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199905251810.UAA01923@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: [Q] How stable is FreeBSD 3.X ? In-Reply-To: from Vince Vielhaber at "May 25, 1999 1:31:23 pm" To: vev@michvhf.com (Vince Vielhaber) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 20:10:33 +0200 (CEST) Cc: seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, serge69@nym.alias.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As Vince Vielhaber wrote ... > On Tue, 25 May 1999, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > > As Seth wrote ... > > > > > Why not upgrade to -STABLE and solve the problem? I also had panics under > > > 3.1-RELEASE, but they were all fixed within one week of -STABLE upgrades. > > > > I agree this may fix it. But it does not address the original point of > > Sergey: why should I need to go for V.next if I just got my V.today with > > -RELEASE stamped on it? > > > > Mind you, there are more than enough answers to that question. One of the > > major ones is the fact that FreeBSD is a volunteer effort. We don't have > > paid people to test it on a gazillion different hardware platforms. > > > > If you think that is not relevant: I used to work with the SCO Unix source > > base and the amount of comment on hardware quirks is considerable to say the > > least. > > > > No instant answers I guess,. > > I'm leaving Sergey's original in place so everyone can reread it. From > the vast amount of information he gives (and has given in subsequent > followups) what alternate advice can anyone give him? 3.2-R happened I have an alternate advice: if M$ works better for your particular setup, be happy with it... My comment was aimed at a more generic level: V.today is always better than V.yesterday. But why not wait for V.tomorrow. -RELEASE is to a lot of people a sort of Gold Seal Of Approval (tm) for better or worse. So, it sets some expectations. Having just installed V.x you don't want to go to V.x+1 immediately. At least *I* would not like it. It is obvious that the amount of information provided is NULL. So, if I had this kind of problem put in front of me in my daily work (which involves among other things customer support) I'd sure send people off to do their homework (or shut up). People who want to run free O/S-es should do a fair bit of homework without being asked to. If not, tough for them... Follow-ups to -chat, this is far to philosophical for any other list. > ten days ago, so if he got V.today or even V.yesterday he'd be using > 3.2. There is no mention to the hardware used or even what other software > he's using. How about what he's doing when it fails? Is he by chance > overclocking? Who knows? In another post he says it's up to the > developers to ask him questions. If he doesn't want to volunteer the > conditions surrounding the problems he's having with an OS that came out > a few months ago, the only answer can be to upgrade to the current > version. > > > > > > > On Tue, 25 May 1999, Sergey wrote: > > > > > > > Hi! > > > > > > > > I've checked this out on good hardware. And now can CLAIM that > > > > 3.1-R *really* have kernel problems on FreeBSD's "classic" configuration. > > > > This bug causes TERRIBLE instability - panic in 24 hours. Even Microsoft's > > > > OSes gives significantly better results > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is mourning day for me - I CAN'T believe in stability of RELEASES > > > > any more... | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 12:41:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.cs.uah.edu (eagle.cs.uah.edu [146.229.2.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C0315B95 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:41:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkirby@cs.uah.edu) Received: from nighthawk.cs.uah.edu (nighthawk.cs.uah.edu [146.229.3.4]) by eagle.cs.uah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA17603; Tue, 25 May 1999 14:41:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (kkirby@localhost) by nighthawk.cs.uah.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18015; Tue, 25 May 1999 14:47:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: nighthawk.cs.uah.edu: kkirby owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:47:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 24 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > Seriously, whenever i want to see how to do something in sh, I just > read /etc/rc* scripts, they are reasonably commented and layed out > in such a way that makes sense. I ended up using Big Brother and /etc/rc* for references. I found out how to make a shell script accept a password. Now if I could get csh... I better work on getting C down first ;-) -- Kris Kirby UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 12:52:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED5E152D3 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 12:52:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from suzy (modem32.masternet.it [194.184.65.42]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA09176 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 19:52:11 GMT (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990525210401.00a04150@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:50:02 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: mb chaintech (http://www.chaintech.com.tw) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I tried to install FreeBSD 2.28 and 3.1 on a box with a K6/2 350, 32mb ram, IDE HD and a mb chaintech CT-5AGM2. sysinstall _always_ hangs on the partioning HD (no matter I removed cache, DMA , IRQ :-). Btw It is not surely a FreeBSD problem, because with an Asus p5a works like a charm. Any other that experinced such thing ? Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 13: 2:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02A0B15467 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 13:02:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 24698 invoked by alias); 25 May 1999 20:02:12 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 24645 invoked by uid 0); 25 May 1999 20:02:11 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 May 1999 20:02:11 -0000 Message-ID: <374B01BC.EBD00301@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:02:04 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "Mark S. Reichman" , "Viren R. Shah" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > Darren Pilgrim wrote, >> idprio seems to have the effect I was aiming for--there's hardly any >> performance hit on the rest of the system/software--but the load is >> considerably higher than I had wanted for running it during business >> hours. I think idprio has a good chance of working. Thanks. > > Load does not tell you a whole lot about performance if processes are > prioritized appropriately. Who cares if setiathome is waiting for > processor cycles (adding to load), but not taking any time away from > processes in the "foreground" (not really impacting CPU usage of > work-related stuff)? Just because your load is always >1 when > setiathome is quietly waiting to take otherwise unused CPU cycles does > not mean other processes are losing any. > > That all said, I do kill setiathome during work hours (on work > machines). However, it has nothing to do with CPU usage. setiathome > eats about 14 MB of memory. On my 64 MB RAM PC here at work, that's > enough to cause some swapping, and _that_ can hit performance. Perhaps that's the problem then. Whatever the problem is, I began running into performance problems while s@h was running. > -- > Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 13: 9:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from charleston.softhome.net (charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 63186158ED for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 13:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bradley@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 1229 invoked by uid 417); 25 May 1999 20:30:35 -0000 Received: from max2-ppp-22.cyberix.com (HELO BillyJoeBob) (207.8.199.86) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 25 May 1999 20:30:35 -0000 From: "Brad Benson" To: Subject: RE: Who has the best mascot? Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:08:18 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bea6ea$5487da20$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org But, where is the lightfort -- > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Matthew N. Dodd > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 3:09 PM > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Who has the best mascot? > > > http://www.jurai.net/~winter/tr/darth_chuck.jpg > > Nothing compares to the power of the Dark Side of the Force. > > :) > > -- > | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | > FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | > | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | > ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | > | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for > my webpage? | > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 13:20:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B481B15A28 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 13:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07686; Tue, 25 May 1999 16:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:19:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brad Benson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Who has the best mascot? In-Reply-To: <000201bea6ea$5487da20$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 25 May 1999, Brad Benson wrote: > But, where is the lightfort -- ??? You mean Obi-Wan Chuck? http://www.jurai.net/~winter/tr/ -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 13:25:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BBAAD15AC7 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 13:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 7246 invoked by alias); 25 May 1999 20:25:50 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 7218 invoked by uid 0); 25 May 1999 20:25:49 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 May 1999 20:25:49 -0000 Message-ID: <374B0747.9B83CCAE@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:25:43 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who has the best mascot? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote: > http://www.jurai.net/~winter/tr/darth_chuck.jpg > > Nothing compares to the power of the Dark Side of the Force. Might that be more aptly name the Dork Side? ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 13:34:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0ED015AC9 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 13:34:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 12590 invoked by alias); 25 May 1999 20:34:42 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 12548 invoked by uid 0); 25 May 1999 20:34:41 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 May 1999 20:34:41 -0000 Message-ID: <374B095B.17D2ABA2@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:34:35 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "Mark S. Reichman" , "Viren R. Shah" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden wrote: > > On Mon, 24 May 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > :A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per > :unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last > :work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's both > :disgusting and hilarious. > > You've got other problems somewhere. My K6/233 in Win98 processes a block > in ~29 hours. In 3.2-R it takes ~19 hours. I would imagine that the video card used has an effect on the amount of CPU used to draw the graphics. Which card are you using? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 13:42:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from charleston.softhome.net (charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDDDE15476 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 13:42:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bradley@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 19916 invoked by uid 417); 25 May 1999 21:03:48 -0000 Received: from max2-ppp-22.cyberix.com (HELO BillyJoeBob) (207.8.199.86) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 25 May 1999 21:03:48 -0000 From: "Brad Benson" To: Subject: RE: Who has the best mascot? Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:41:34 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bea6ee$fa5d5340$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Typo lightfort = lightfork He needs an evil red light pitchfork to be Sith Lord Chuck. > > On Tue, 25 May 1999, Brad Benson wrote: > > But, where is the lightfort -- > > ??? > > You mean Obi-Wan Chuck? http://www.jurai.net/~winter/tr/ > > -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 13:52:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEE814EFB for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 13:52:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18527; Tue, 25 May 1999 14:52:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990525144702.04687e30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:52:01 -0600 To: "Brad Benson" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Who has the best mascot? In-Reply-To: <000001bea6ee$fa5d5340$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:41 PM 5/25/99 -0400, Brad Benson wrote: >Typo lightfort = lightfork >He needs an evil red light pitchfork to be Sith Lord Chuck. I was thinking more of Darth Daemon. Or maybe Chuck Vader. --Brett "Prepare to embrace your creators in the stygian haunts of hell, barbarian", gasped the first soldier. "Only after you have kissed the fleeting stead of death, wretch!" returned Grignr. A sweeping blade of flashing steel riveted from the massive barbarians hide enameled shield as his rippling right arm thrust forth, sending a steel shod blade to the hilt into the soldiers vital organs. The disemboweled mercenary crumpled from his saddle and sank to the clouded sward, sprinkling the parched dust with crimson droplets of escaping life fluid. The enthused barbarian swilveled about, his shock of fiery red hair tossing robustly in the humid air currents as he faced the attack of the defeated soldier's fellow in arms. "Damn you, barbarian" Shrieked the soldier as he observed his comrade in death. From "The Eye of Argon," by Jim Theis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 14:30: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B6F156DE for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 14:29:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9A2E8406D; Tue, 25 May 1999 17:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 732F99A91; Tue, 25 May 1999 17:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:30:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: "Mark S. Reichman" , "Viren R. Shah" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! In-Reply-To: <374B095B.17D2ABA2@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 25 May 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: :Jamie Bowden wrote: :> :> On Mon, 24 May 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: :> :> :A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per :> :unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last :> :work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's both :> :disgusting and hilarious. :> :> You've got other problems somewhere. My K6/233 in Win98 processes a block :> in ~29 hours. In 3.2-R it takes ~19 hours. : :I would imagine that the video card used has an effect on the amount :of CPU used to draw the graphics. Which card are you using? : Matrox Millenium2 PCI. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 14:32:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119B5156DE for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 14:32:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id XAA29168 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 25 May 1999 23:32:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 9428F87AE; Tue, 25 May 1999 23:19:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:19:16 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Message-ID: <19990525231916.A67401@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199905250221.WAA08596@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Jamie Bowden on Tue, May 25, 1999 at 10:29:43AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5322 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Jamie Bowden: > You've got other problems somewhere. My K6/233 in Win98 processes a block > in ~29 hours. In 3.2-R it takes ~19 hours. My dual PPro/200 takes 35h per work unit. I have two working on the machine (one per CPU). The machine is not doing anything useful generally (except "make world" from time to time). I'll add a PII/266 tomorrow. I've joined the team that you can find with "freebsd". Jordan already has processed some units. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #71: Sun May 9 20:16:32 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 14:35:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from virtualia.combios.es (virtualia.combios.es [195.53.190.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B1E7B158AE; Tue, 25 May 1999 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from callback@workmail.com) Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (206.253.129.185) by virtualia.combios.es (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 25 May 1999 23:32:59 +0200 Received: from workmail.com (36229.rad.bbv.es [195.235.36.229]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA18023; Tue, 25 May 1999 17:33:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:33:32 -0400 (EDT) From: callback@workmail.com Message-Id: <199905252133.RAA18023@pop01.globecomm.net> To: callback@workmail.com Subject: CAMBIO DE DIRECCION EMAIL Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Disculpe la intromisión. Tengo que comunicarles que mis tres direcciones principales de redireccionamiento hasta ahora: callback@correo.nu call-back@correo.nu call-back@correovirtual.com han sido eliminadas por cese de actividad de su dominio como pueden comprobar en las direcciones http://www.correo.nu y http://www.correovirtual.com. Por otro lado por nuestra cuenta vamos a abandonar las direcciones: callback@workmail.com call-back@lycosmail.com por los muchos fallos y desconexiones que tiene el proveedor mail.com. Asi con todo lo relacionado con el sistema CallBack y sistema 800 (Tarjetas Virtuales) de IAS, pueden ponerse en contacto con nuestra dirección principal ya conocida o con la siguiente direccion info@callback.zzn.com Saludos -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CORREO GRATUITO EN NUEVE IDIOMAS EN http://callback.zzn.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hallo: Exculpates the interference. I than to communicate them than this addresses main of forward until now: callback@correo.nu call-back@correo.nu call-back@correovirtual.com han been eliminated by end of activity of his domain as they can check at the addresses http://www.correo.nu and http://www.correovirtual.com. Let's go to abandon the addresses: callback@workmail.com call-back@lycosmail.com by the many failures and desconexiones than he have the providor mail.com. Related to with the system CallBack and system 800 (Virtual Cards) of IAS, they can to be laied at contact with our address main already knowed or with the following address info@callback.zzn.com Greetings -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EMAIL FREE AT NINE LANGUAGES AT http://callback.zzn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 15:17:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C14914E75 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10770; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: mestery@visi.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI teams In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 May 1999 07:31:11 CDT." Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:18:03 -0700 Message-ID: <10766.927670683@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, since they seem to have totally munged the team mechanism since first introducing it, I might suggest that everyone switch to the freebsd team instead because it's going to be the first (and sadly only) FreeBSD team people see when they search for "FreeBSD", which is the obvious thing to search for. A straight-up FreeBSD team didn't exist at the time that team freebsd was created and so I joined that one first. When I saw what they'd done to the team stats ordering, I switched over. I know how people think when presented with a search button. :) - Jordan > > I noticed there are two FreeBSD SETI teams, freebsd and 'team freebsd.' > We need to consolidate. I think the 4 members of freebsd should join > 'team freebsd', as there are more members there. We could really use > Jordan's 100+ work units! > > -- > Kyle Mestery | StorageTek's Storage Networking Group > mestery@visi.com | http://www.freebsd.org/ > mestery@netwinder.org | http://www.netwinder.org/ > Protect your right to privacy: www.freecrypto.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 15:18:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FC914E56 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22161; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <374B219D.446838F2@seattleu.edu> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:18:05 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Benson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who has the best mascot? References: <000201bea6ea$5487da20$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Benson wrote: > > But, where is the lightfort -- > > > http://www.jurai.net/~winter/tr/darth_chuck.jpg > > > > Nothing compares to the power of the Dark Side of the Force. Or should it be forksaber? They both sound rather silly to me -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 15:20:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F9714E56 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22474; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <374B2200.B3640014@seattleu.edu> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:19:44 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who has the best mascot? References: <374B0747.9B83CCAE@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote: > > http://www.jurai.net/~winter/tr/darth_chuck.jpg > > > > Nothing compares to the power of the Dark Side of the Force. > > Might that be more aptly name the Dork Side? ;-) That should be Geek/Nerd Side. dork == penis -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 15:39:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maxcow.borg.com (MaxCow.borg.com [205.217.206.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A21F14F51 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:39:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@borg.com) Received: from mail.borg.com (mail.borg.com [205.217.206.192]) by maxcow.borg.com (8.9.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13812; Tue, 25 May 1999 18:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from borg.com (ip198a.borg.com [208.3.180.198]) by mail.borg.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25112; Tue, 25 May 1999 18:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <374B285A.10B2C8A1@borg.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:46:50 -0400 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> <374A0FD6.B2162D40@borg.com> <374A11D8.3B34029A@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > On that note, is there are a way a put a limit on the load a process > creates under FreeBSD? It would be great if I could leave S@h running > all the time under a load limit, then just lift that limit while I'm > not using the machine. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Yes. The setiathome process runs by default at a nice level of 1. All other progs by default run at 0. So, the seti folks already have made their process the least damaging. If you want to make it the same (0) or higher (-1) than other processes su to root. then: $> renice 0 setiathomes_pid The lower the nice level, that more CPU a process gets. Also, do a : $> man nice OR $> man renice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 15:41:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E4B2156B6 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:41:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA28916; Tue, 25 May 1999 17:59:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:59:40 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Kris Kirby Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 25 May 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > On Mon, 24 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > Seriously, whenever i want to see how to do something in sh, I just > > read /etc/rc* scripts, they are reasonably commented and layed out > > in such a way that makes sense. > > I ended up using Big Brother and /etc/rc* for references. I found out how > to make a shell script accept a password. Now if I could get csh... I > better work on getting C down first ;-) don't use csh for shell scripting, it's brain dead about a lot of things you can do. perhaps someone can point out the anti-csh scripting URL? -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 15:50:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maxcow.borg.com (MaxCow.borg.com [205.217.206.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F08157EB for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 15:50:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@borg.com) Received: from mail.borg.com (mail.borg.com [205.217.206.192]) by maxcow.borg.com (8.9.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14077; Tue, 25 May 1999 18:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from borg.com (ip198a.borg.com [208.3.180.198]) by mail.borg.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA27351; Tue, 25 May 1999 18:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <374B2ADE.B459610D@borg.com> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:57:34 -0400 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! References: <199905241406.KAA08878@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> <374A05E0.2F060363@borg.com> <374A07FF.C79B4E44@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There are two teams now. One name "FreeBSD", which JKH is a memeber of and kicking ass I might add, and one named "Team FreeBSD". JKH prolly has his quad cpu smp enabled freebsd box spitting out work units in 3 hours or less. How did our team get split up like this? Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > "Mark S. Reichman" wrote: > > > > I'm there.. My average CPU time per work unit is 25 hours. > > Im running a K6-200 FreeBSD 3.2-Stable > > Daniel O'connor's is only 10 hrs/work unit. He must have at least a > > 300 Mhz machine. > > A note on FreeBSD's efficiency: My P2-350 spends almost 38 hours per > unit when under W98 and that's with nothing else running. The last > work unit took my P166 running 3.1R just under 30 hours. That's both > disgusting and hilarious. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 16: 8:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC19159AE; Tue, 25 May 1999 16:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11435; Tue, 25 May 1999 19:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:08:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu, msmith@freebsd.org Subject: Gigabit Ethernet. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org SysKonnect (www.syskonnect.com,www.syskonnect.de) as been convinced to release the documentation for their GENESIS interface ASIC that they use with the XaQti (www.xaqti.com) XMAC II Gigabit Ethernet controller chip on their line of Gigabit Ethernet PCI cards. Currently Linux has support for this device though in a beta fashion and through a binary library. There is no FreeBSD support. FreeBSD already supports the Alteon Tigon 1 and Tigon 2 based devices but given documentation (check) a willing developer (check) and an example device ( ), there is no reason FreeBSD can't have support for this line of devices. All that remains is for Bill Paul (wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu) to receive 1 of these devices so he can begin coding. Bill, as you may know, is the author of many fine fast ethernet device drivers (And a wireless ethernet driver, and the Alteon gigabit ethernet driver). You can find all of his work at http://www.freebsd.org/~wpaul/ and most of it in a recent -STABLE/-CURRENT tree. Bill is the reason FreeBSD now supports nearly every cheap, worthless, trashy Taiwanese ethernet board on the market. (He'd love to find more well designed hardware but such hardware doesn't sell for $19.95 at CompUSA.) Anyhow, as Mike Smith said "Bill has a very high return on investment." I don't think you'll disagree with this statement given his track record. What Bill needs: (as relates to his SK driver efforts that is) - donations from 1 or many people to The FreeBSD Project so that Mike & Jordan can buy him a card (or 2). - A card. :) If you're going to donate a card, please email Bill first to make sure he still needs one. His shipping info is at the end of this message. If you want to donate money please see http://www.freebsdmall.com/donate/ (I'm not sure how this page allows you to specify what the donation is towards but I gather that the monent there is enough cash available, a card will be ordered. If your donations don't end up actually going towards the purchase of an SK card, they'll probably go against an Adaptec, or a PNIC II or whatever other new card that Bill needs.) Card type: SysKonnect SK-9843 Single Port SC connector SX-Gigabit ethernet INFO@: http://www.syskonnect.com/syskonnect/products/b0101_ethernet_9843.html BUY@: http://www.onsale.com/category/inv/00043095/01530276.htm $558.07 -or- SysKonnect SK-9844 Dual Port SC connector SX-Gigabit ethernet INFO@: http://www.syskonnect.com/syskonnect/products/b0101_ethernet_9844.html BUY@: http://www.onsale.com/category/inv/00043095/01530275.htm $1,134.46 Bill only needs 1 card, but it probably wouldn't hurt for him to have both. Given the choice b/t cards, Bill has expressed the desire to have the dual port. Given the choice between a single port card and no card at all I suspect he'd settle for the single port. SysKonnect makes LX fiber versions of the above cards which are not needed for use in development. Check the SK part number if your order something. Shipping info: Attn: Bill Paul Columbia University Dept. Of Electrical Engineering Room 1312 Mudd Bldg. 500 West 120th Street New York City, NY. 10027 (If you get the impression that I'm just a lackey for Bill then you're only somewhat right. Its more of a whiping boy than a real lackey though.) -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 16:13: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gdead.adm.ispchannel.net (gdead.adm.ispchannel.net [208.138.36.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E75B14C12 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 16:13:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@gdead.adm.ispchannel.net) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by gdead.adm.ispchannel.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA39654; Tue, 25 May 1999 16:12:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:12:57 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: mestery@visi.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI teams Message-ID: <19990525161257.A36292@gdead.adm.ispchannel.net> Reply-To: jgrosch@gdead.adm.ispchannel.net References: <10766.927670683@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <10766.927670683@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, May 25, 1999 at 03:18:03PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 25, 1999 at 03:18:03PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Actually, since they seem to have totally munged the team mechanism > since first introducing it, I might suggest that everyone switch to > the freebsd team instead because it's going to be the first (and sadly > only) FreeBSD team people see when they search for "FreeBSD", which is > the obvious thing to search for. Agree. The term "FreeBSD" is the first thing most people are going to try and since the SETI people seem to be focusing on SETI and not on team listings on their web page we need to make this as simple as possible. Switching over to "FreeBSD" from "Team FreeBSD" makes good strategic sense. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Grateful Dead | jgrosch@gdead.adm.ispchannel.net | 1965 - 1995 | Jerry Lives ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 17: 3:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02AF15890 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 17:03:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15782; Tue, 25 May 1999 17:11:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:11:17 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Kris Kirby , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's somewhere in the Unix Powertools book by O'Reilly as well. I can't remember a URL for it tho... --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Tue, 25 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On Tue, 25 May 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > On Mon, 24 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > Seriously, whenever i want to see how to do something in sh, I just > > > read /etc/rc* scripts, they are reasonably commented and layed out > > > in such a way that makes sense. > > > > I ended up using Big Brother and /etc/rc* for references. I found out how > > to make a shell script accept a password. Now if I could get csh... I > > better work on getting C down first ;-) > > don't use csh for shell scripting, it's brain dead about a lot > of things you can do. perhaps someone can point out the > anti-csh scripting URL? > > -Alfred > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 17:37:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0407A14D0C for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 17:37:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from ppp18357.on.bellglobal.com (ppp18372.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.52]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00019; Tue, 25 May 1999 20:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by ppp18357.on.bellglobal.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA98237; Tue, 25 May 1999 20:37:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 20:37:33 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Mark S. Reichman" Cc: Darren Pilgrim , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI@home has teams now! Message-ID: <19990525203733.A98166@ppp18357.on.bellglobal.com> References: <19990525023006.9612E1505D@hub.freebsd.org> <374A0FD6.B2162D40@borg.com> <374A11D8.3B34029A@uswest.net> <374B285A.10B2C8A1@borg.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <374B285A.10B2C8A1@borg.com>; from Mark S. Reichman on Tue, May 25, 1999 at 06:46:50PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 25, 1999 at 06:46:50PM -0400, Mark S. Reichman wrote: > > Yes. The setiathome process runs by default at a nice level of 1. > All other progs by default run at 0. So, the seti folks already > have made their process the least damaging. If you want to I notice pretty quickly when I forget to nice setiathome to something nicer than 1. > $> renice 0 setiathomes_pid It works from inside top(1), too. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 25 21: 8:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C1F7714E6C for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:08:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 18086 invoked by alias); 26 May 1999 04:08:46 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 18057 invoked by uid 0); 26 May 1999 04:08:45 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 26 May 1999 04:08:45 -0000 Message-ID: <374B73C4.47054ECB@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:08:36 -0700 From: Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Hodel Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who has the best mascot? References: <374B0747.9B83CCAE@uswest.net> <374B2200.B3640014@seattleu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Hodel wrote: > Darren Pilgrim wrote: >> Might that be more aptly name the Dork Side? ;-) > > That should be Geek/Nerd Side. dork == penis Geek and Nerd aren't puns on Dark. Dork is. As for dork being another name for penis, it's news to me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 1:20:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EFE15447 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 01:19:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:19:21 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk ([10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id L4VBJH6M; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:11:33 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 10mYxt-000M0P-00; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:23:05 +0100 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Kris Kirby , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Music to code by X-Mailer: nmh-1.0 X-Colour: Green Organization: Palmer & Harvey McLane In-Reply-To: Alfred Perlstein's message of "Tue, 25 May 1999 17:59:40 CDT" Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:23:05 +0100 From: Dom Mitchell Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein proclaimed: > On Tue, 25 May 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > On Mon, 24 May 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > Seriously, whenever i want to see how to do something in sh, I just > > > read /etc/rc* scripts, they are reasonably commented and layed out > > > in such a way that makes sense. > > > > I ended up using Big Brother and /etc/rc* for references. I found out how > > to make a shell script accept a password. Now if I could get csh... I > > better work on getting C down first ;-) > > don't use csh for shell scripting, it's brain dead about a lot > of things you can do. perhaps someone can point out the > anti-csh scripting URL? I agree entirely. See . -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "Value of 2 may go down as well as up" -- FORTRAN programmers manual -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 5:28:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADDB915309 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 05:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02068 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 05:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905261228.FAA02068@implode.root.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: wcarchive press release From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 05:28:51 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wrote this last night and released it this morning... INTERNET'S BUSIEST SOFTWARE ARCHIVE REACHES NEW DOWNLOAD MILESTONE San Francisco, CA., May 26, 1999 Walnut Creek CDROM, Inc. announced today that their popular software archive at ftp://ftp.cdrom.com has surpassed the one trillion bytes (one terabyte) milestone of files downloaded per day from a single server machine. The current record set on Sunday of 1.39TB of file downloads was made possible while testing a new gigabit ethernet connection with the company's Internet service provider, CRL Network Services. "We're very pleased with how the gigabit ethernet performed during these tests", said Robert Bruce, Walnut Creek's President and founder. "This new bandwidth capability coupled with the incredible performance of the FreeBSD Operating System software has allowed us to raise the bar of Internet server performance to an entirely new level." The server machine, also known as "wcarchive", was recently upgraded to a single processor NetFRAME 9201 system from Micron Electronics, Inc. and is capable of handling more than 10,000 simultaneous downloads. Walnut Creek CDROM was founded in 1991 by its current president and owner, Mr. Robert Bruce. Since the beginning, Walnut Creek CDROM has maintained a philosophy of creating superior quality CDROM software products at a reasonable price to the consumer. The company is also the premier CDROM supplier of the popular FreeBSD and Slackware Linux Operating Systems. Walnut Creek CDROM provides these and a vast collection of other software free of charge to Internet users on its FTP site at ftp://ftp.cdrom.com. With more than 750,000 visitors a day that download more than 1 terabyte (1000 gigabytes) of files, ftp.cdrom.com is widely known as the world's most popular public FTP software archive. For more information about Walnut Creek CDROM and its products, the company can be contacted at (800) 786-9907 (U.S. toll-free), (925) 674-0783 (international), by fax at (925) 674-0821, or by visiting their web site at http://www.cdrom.com. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 6:30:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (unknown [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E623A14C4F for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 06:30:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07959; Wed, 26 May 1999 08:31:57 -0400 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma007953; Wed, 26 May 99 12:31:43 GMT Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08451; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA33242; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:30:28 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14155.63347.947009.695749@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:30:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Viren R. Shah" To: jgrosch@gdead.adm.ispchannel.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SETI teams In-Reply-To: <19990525161257.A36292@gdead.adm.ispchannel.net> References: <10766.927670683@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990525161257.A36292@gdead.adm.ispchannel.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "JG" == Josef Grosch writes: JG> Agree. The term "FreeBSD" is the first thing most people are going to try JG> and since the SETI people seem to be focusing on SETI and not on team JG> listings on their web page we need to make this as simple as JG> possible. Switching over to "FreeBSD" from "Team FreeBSD" makes good JG> strategic sense. OK, but how come I can't see either FreeBSD team under the "Clubs" listings? That's how I found "Team FreeBSD" in the first place. I can find them if I search explicitly for them. JG> Josef Viren -- Viren R. Shah "I merely note, if you want to catch something, running after it isn't always the best way." -- Miles Vorkosigan (Lois McMaster Bujold, "The Mountains of Mourning") To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 8:43:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E95A14DFD for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 08:43:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.1.2] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.00 #1) id 10mfFf-0003wv-00; Wed, 26 May 1999 16:05:51 +0100 (envelope-from ben@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 3.00 #1) id 10mfFa-0001si-00; Wed, 26 May 1999 16:05:46 +0100 (envelope-from ben@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:05:45 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by Message-ID: <19990526160545.A7206@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein wrote: > perhaps someone can point out the anti-csh scripting URL? I pointed the URL for one copy, is there another one you were thinking of? http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/csh.html, in case you missed it last time. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 9: 3:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (zabagek.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BD41560A for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from tg@localhost) by zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA35124; Wed, 26 May 1999 18:04:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tg) To: Warner Losh Cc: Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Roger Hardiman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. References: <374C028F.3877459F@softweyr.com> <1907.927593076@zippy.cdrom.com> <199905261549.JAA02217@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 26 May 1999 18:04:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Wed, 26 May 1999 09:49:26 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.34/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Warner Losh writes: > In message <374C028F.3877459F@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes: > : (Gotta love the name of my town, huh?) > > Speaking of which, does anybody have geography information for all the > committers? I think one of those virtual maps with pins in it would > be good to see. :-) Ah, a volunteer. Do you collect entries? Aachen, Germany, 50.7N, 6.2E tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 9:15:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F9D15677 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:15:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA86805; Wed, 26 May 1999 10:15:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA02480; Wed, 26 May 1999 10:13:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199905261613.KAA02480@harmony.village.org> To: Thomas Gellekum Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. Cc: Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Roger Hardiman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: Your message of "26 May 1999 18:04:14 +0200." References: <374C028F.3877459F@softweyr.com> <1907.927593076@zippy.cdrom.com> <199905261549.JAA02217@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:13:48 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message Thomas Gellekum writes: : Ah, a volunteer. Do you collect entries? No. But I think it would be reasonable for people to add their own in realtime to ${HOME}/.icbm. :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 9:25:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nu.binary.net (nu.binary.net [12.13.120.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4143515566 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nathan@rtfm.net) Received: from matrix.binary.net (nathan@matrix.binary.net [12.13.120.2]) by nu.binary.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA87262; Wed, 26 May 1999 11:25:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by matrix.binary.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA29194; Wed, 26 May 1999 11:25:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:25:22 -0400 From: Nathan Dorfman To: Brett Glass Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Message-ID: <19990526122522.A26225@rtfm.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990519171814.045d9c80@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990520145111.044f4ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990520145111.044f4ab0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:54:29PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:54:29PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > That's the purpose of the GPL: to destroy your markets and your livelihood. > Making money by licensing software is evil, you see, so We Of The GNU Borg > Collective must stop you by giving away what you are trying to sell. You > Will Be Assimilated. How do you figure? They're not giving away what you're trying to sell. They're giving away their own code. What is it that you're complaining about? > --Electrocutis of Borg -- Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching train." --/usr/games/fortune To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 10:46:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A2215730 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 10:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01640; Wed, 26 May 1999 13:05:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:05:29 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Ben Smithurst Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by In-Reply-To: <19990526160545.A7206@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 26 May 1999, Ben Smithurst wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > perhaps someone can point out the anti-csh scripting URL? > > I pointed the URL for one copy, is there another one you were thinking > of? http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/csh.html, in case you missed it last > time. got both, thanks. interesting how some of the fatal bugs were squashed but csh is still doomed because of design. thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 10:48:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D48156CE for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 10:48:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02591; Wed, 26 May 1999 10:56:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:56:05 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Nathan Dorfman Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <19990526122522.A26225@rtfm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org He's labouring under the belief that GPL authors seek out commercial code and attempt to subvert their markets by cloning the software. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Wed, 26 May 1999, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:54:29PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > That's the purpose of the GPL: to destroy your markets and your livelihood. > > Making money by licensing software is evil, you see, so We Of The GNU Borg > > Collective must stop you by giving away what you are trying to sell. You > > Will Be Assimilated. > > How do you figure? They're not giving away what you're trying to sell. > They're giving away their own code. What is it that you're complaining > about? > > > --Electrocutis of Borg > > -- > Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my > Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. > "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching > train." --/usr/games/fortune > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 10:59:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.airnet.net (unknown [216.180.30.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0211553A for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 10:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (216.180.35.232) by alpha.airnet.net (Worldmail 1.3.167); 26 May 1999 12:59:36 -0500 Message-ID: <374C3686.54A9FCD6@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:59:34 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by References: <37498EE6.EE770024@airnet.net> <374A055B.69A70243@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > Kris Kirby wrote: > > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >> Insane Clown Posse, Skunk Anansie, Dog Eat Dog, Ace of Base, Any decent > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > I started to stay away from these jokers when I had ~2 non-fender > > benders while listening to thier music. Of course, I was listening to > > Korn when I took the car off the road and into a field ;-). > > Suggestion: Don't headbang while driving. :-) I wasn't. And you can't headbang to (c)rap. -- Kris Kirby Home UAH CS WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 11: 0: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.airnet.net (unknown [216.180.30.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CB114D09 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 10:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (216.180.35.232) by alpha.airnet.net (Worldmail 1.3.167); 26 May 1999 13:00:03 -0500 Message-ID: <374C36A2.7F170DD@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:00:02 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by References: <37498EE6.EE770024@airnet.net> <19990524212410.C3311@holly.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Costello wrote: > > On Mon, May 24, 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > > I started to stay away from these jokers when I had ~2 non-fender > > benders while listening to thier music. Of course, I was listening to > > Korn when I took the car off the road and into a field ;-). > > Are you watching the videos for your favorite songs on a > portable TV of some sort? If this is the case, you may often not > see the road and, due to this condition, not be able to follow > it, hitting other cars, people, or large fields, camoflaged > enough so that people watching TVs cannot see them until it's too > late. Not yet... -- Kris Kirby Home UAH CS WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 11: 1:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.airnet.net (unknown [216.180.30.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E2B15683 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 11:01:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (216.180.35.232) by alpha.airnet.net (Worldmail 1.3.167); 26 May 1999 13:01:50 -0500 Message-ID: <374C370D.7CEE8B38@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:01:49 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Lynch Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Music to code by References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat Lynch wrote: > > I think it might be just time for a few driving lessons instead of a > change in music. Well, I've had a change of car instead... No, I didn't destroy the other one. > "Fear is the way to the Dark Side...Fear leads to Anger.... > Anger leads to Hate.....Hate leads to Suffering." > > -Yoda, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Apply Mickysoft to the above quote. -- Kris Kirby Home UAH CS WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 17:26:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D429114E48 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:26:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06862; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:54:51 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:54:51 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Thomas Gellekum Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Roger Hardiman , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wes Peters , Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-May-99 Thomas Gellekum wrote: > Ah, a volunteer. Do you collect entries? > Aachen, Germany, 50.7N, 6.2E The resolution is a little low! You should borrow someones GPS unit :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 17:30: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9590A155A5 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 20002 invoked from network); 27 May 1999 00:30:01 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 May 1999 00:30:01 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA08669 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 26 May 1999 19:30:00 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199905270030.TAA08669@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:30:00 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gang, Didn't know where to post this, so just thought that I'd tell you that if you are running the Linux version of 4.6, give the FreeBSD version a try if you can. It really seems LOTS faster on startup, and might even be faster in general for some reason. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 17:58:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448DC14FA6 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:58:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23359; Wed, 26 May 1999 19:57:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:57:57 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 Message-ID: <19990526195756.D6251@futuresouth.com> References: <199905270030.TAA08669@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199905270030.TAA08669@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Wed, May 26, 1999 at 07:30:00PM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 26, 1999 at 07:30:00PM -0500, a little birdie told me that John S. Dyson remarked > Gang, > Didn't know where to post this, so just thought > that I'd tell you that if you are running the > Linux version of 4.6, give the FreeBSD version a > try if you can. It really seems LOTS faster on > startup, and might even be faster in general for > some reason. FYI, I use the FreeBSD version, and while Netscrape has never been a model of stability (under 2.2), now with 4.[56] under -CURRENT it routinely crashes out (sig10 usually) maybe every 3, 4 days, and I have a page or two around I can induce a crash at any time with. Doesn't hurt my X server or anything, just... well: May 25 17:05:54 mortis /kernel: pid 86922 (communicator-4.5), uid 100: exited on signal 10 May 25 17:07:39 mortis /kernel: pid 64577 (communicator-4.5), uid 100: exited on signal 10 May 25 17:08:16 mortis /kernel: pid 64590 (communicator-4.5), uid 100: exited on signal 10 May 25 17:08:47 mortis /kernel: pid 64598 (communicator-4.5), uid 100: exited on signal 10 May 25 23:48:51 mortis /kernel: pid 68661 (communicator-4.6), uid 100: exited on signal 10 That was when I was testing it repeatedly on one page; it really is 4.6 even when it says 4.5, the binary was named wrong. 4.5 on -CURRENT DID seem to be ever so slightly less stable than 4.6, so I guess it's an improvement, but... How about a web browser that DOESN'T crash out on me? Mosaic doesn't have a 'stop' button/function that I've been able to get to work, so that's kinda out... -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller MF4839 http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 17:58:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD42714FA6 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:58:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id KAA15040; Thu, 27 May 1999 10:28:31 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA19100; Thu, 27 May 1999 10:29:28 +0930 Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:29:28 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 In-Reply-To: <199905270030.TAA08669@dyson.iquest.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 26 May 1999, John S. Dyson wrote: > Gang, > Didn't know where to post this, so just thought > that I'd tell you that if you are running the > Linux version of 4.6, give the FreeBSD version a > try if you can. It really seems LOTS faster on > startup, and might even be faster in general for > some reason. How is it stability-wise? That seems to be the major reason most people use the Linux version over the native one. Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 19:50: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D6F315065 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 19:49:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 13138 invoked from network); 27 May 1999 02:49:52 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 May 1999 02:49:52 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA08912; Wed, 26 May 1999 21:49:47 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199905270249.VAA08912@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 In-Reply-To: from Kris Kennaway at "May 27, 99 10:29:28 am" To: kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au (Kris Kennaway) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:49:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 26 May 1999, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > Gang, > > Didn't know where to post this, so just thought > > that I'd tell you that if you are running the > > Linux version of 4.6, give the FreeBSD version a > > try if you can. It really seems LOTS faster on > > startup, and might even be faster in general for > > some reason. > > How is it stability-wise? That seems to be the major reason most people use > the Linux version over the native one. > So-far about the same. There are some sites that seem to cause problems with both of 'em. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 21:40:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F1201525C for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 21:40:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 14322 invoked from network); 27 May 1999 04:40:50 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 May 1999 04:40:50 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA09114; Wed, 26 May 1999 23:40:47 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199905270440.XAA09114@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: from "unknown@riverstyx.net" at "May 26, 99 10:56:05 am" To: unknown@riverstyx.net Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:40:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: nathan@rtfm.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > He's labouring under the belief that GPL authors seek out commercial code > and attempt to subvert their markets by cloning the software. > From what I can see, there is NO aggressive attempt (conspiracy) on the part of GPL advocates to seek out and destroy commercial software in general. However, it is clear (yet another posting on USENET), that there are significant numbers of people not understanding some of the regressive aspects of GPL. There are also some aspects of hatred in the computer community towards certain vendors and certain classes of individuals (developers), and by building a zealous community based upon that is going to eventually lead to self-destructive behavior. Licenses are *tools*, and sometimes there are unintended effects of any tool (busted finger with a hammer, broken screwdriver being used as a crowbar, or destroying an auto's brake system by using the wrong type of fluid :-(). GPL is the kind of tool that has a very focused effect, isn't well proven legally, and is likely being used like the screwdriver above all too often. IMO, the best attitude about licenses is to try to convince people to read the license and understand the short and long term effects before pasting them on the top of a program. Also, TRY to convince people to educate themselves on which licensed software package is worthless to invest lots and lots of effort on, and which licensed software package that allows you to capitalize on their own creativity. For those people who use software as a black-box (therefore don't see any disadvantages to GPL), it is also good to educate them as to the fact that given free license terms (as opposed to the non free GPL) developers can support themselves as DEVELOPERS. It is a socially very good thing to support those who give away lots of hard work to the user base. If the developers are given very little advantage, then the stagnation of the "not necessarily evil, but definitely too powerful empire" will be exchanged for the stagnation of the GPL "it isn't worth developing based from this platform." Alas, long term thinking is now totally missing, and as such, GPL will very effectively seduce parts of the industry into mediocracy, reinventing the results of real work and innovation. Hopefully, both free and commercial software will overtake that stagnating carbon-copy influence. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 26 23:32:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (zabagek.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5673215633 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 23:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from tg@localhost) by zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) id IAA36067; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:33:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tg) To: Warner Losh Cc: Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Roger Hardiman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. References: <374C028F.3877459F@softweyr.com> <1907.927593076@zippy.cdrom.com> <199905261549.JAA02217@harmony.village.org> <199905261613.KAA02480@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 27 May 1999 08:33:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Wed, 26 May 1999 10:13:48 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.34/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Warner Losh writes: > In message Thomas Gellekum writes: > : Ah, a volunteer. Do you collect entries? > > No. But I think it would be reasonable for people to add their own in > realtime to ${HOME}/.icbm. :-) Format? tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 0:11: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E74153F8 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 00:10:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10muJa-000Ksq-0K; Thu, 27 May 1999 07:10:54 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA01704; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:10:49 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA08077; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:10:47 +0100 Message-ID: <374CEF9F.2FE8CA45@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:09:19 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 References: <199905270030.TAA08669@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > Gang, > Didn't know where to post this, so just thought > that I'd tell you that if you are running the > Linux version of 4.6, give the FreeBSD version a > try if you can. It really seems LOTS faster on > startup, and might even be faster in general for > some reason. > Thanks for the tip. Have they fixed the crap text search algorithm yet? With 4.5 you measure the search time for large (couple of hundred KB) HTML docs in minutes! And what about saving preferences, like the position of the toolbars? > John > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 0:20:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E72A214C29 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 00:20:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10muSs-00051w-0B; Thu, 27 May 1999 07:20:30 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA01726; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:20:00 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA08636; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:19:57 +0100 Message-ID: <374CF1C5.FE25A459@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:18:29 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "John S. Dyson" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Wed, 26 May 1999, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > Gang, > > Didn't know where to post this, so just thought > > that I'd tell you that if you are running the > > Linux version of 4.6, give the FreeBSD version a > > try if you can. It really seems LOTS faster on > > startup, and might even be faster in general for > > some reason. > > How is it stability-wise? That seems to be the major reason most people use > the Linux version over the native one. > Stability problems aren't just with the FreeBSD version, 4.5 running on my Sun (SunOS 4.1.3, i.e. BSD) here at work exhibits all the same problems as the FreeBSD version, crashes (mainly sig 10), won't save many preferences (toolbar position, "remember last message" in mail and news), takes an inordinate amount of time to do searches in HTML docs, etc. Just doesn't seem to work well in a BSD environment. > Kris > > ----- > "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, > because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." > -- Unknown > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 0:54:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 315E215873 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 00:54:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24763; Thu, 27 May 1999 00:53:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd024730; Thu May 27 00:53:50 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11921; Thu, 27 May 1999 00:53:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905270753.AAA11921@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. To: doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:53:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tg@ihf.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, roger@cs.strath.ac.uk, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, wes@softweyr.com, imp@harmony.village.org In-Reply-To: from "Daniel O'Connor" at May 27, 99 09:54:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ah, a volunteer. Do you collect entries? > > Aachen, Germany, 50.7N, 6.2E > > The resolution is a little low! You should borrow someones GPS unit :) The accuracy is a little low! You should borrow a military unit :) Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 1: 8:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB0A154E0 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27276; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:08:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd027261; Thu May 27 01:08:22 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA12377; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:08:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905270808.BAA12377@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 To: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:08:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990526195756.D6251@futuresouth.com> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at May 26, 99 07:57:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I use the FreeBSD version, and while Netscrape has never been a model of > stability (under 2.2), now with 4.[56] under -CURRENT it routinely > crashes out (sig10 usually) maybe every 3, 4 days, and I have a page or > two around I can induce a crash at any time with. Doesn't hurt my X > server or anything, just... well: > May 25 17:05:54 mortis /kernel: pid 86922 (communicator-4.5), uid 100: > exited on signal 10 [ ... ] > That was when I was testing it repeatedly on one page; it really is 4.6 > even when it says 4.5, the binary was named wrong. 4.5 on -CURRENT DID > seem to be ever so slightly less stable than 4.6, so I guess it's an > improvement, but... FWIW, John Dyson's threads are probably more stable than yours. 8-). Also, NetScape has a general concurrency problem in its Java implementation; you aren't by chance using the browser with Java enabled? The gist of it comes down to an assumption about scheduling policy for threads following a preemption by another process (not thead). The assumption is valid for Solaris/NT/95, but invalid for FreeBSD, Macintosh, and most other OS's. Netscape also has a nasty problem in it's GIF decoder that prevents it from running concurrent copies of the decoder simultaneously for a Java (or JavaScript, actually) window. Maybe someone to whom Netscape would listen could report this to them? It would help out their Macintosh version as well, FWIW. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 1: 9:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (zabagek.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3048D14E9D for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:09:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from tg@localhost) by zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA47465; Thu, 27 May 1999 10:07:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tg) To: Terry Lambert Cc: doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, roger@cs.strath.ac.uk, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, wes@softweyr.com, imp@harmony.village.org Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. References: <199905270753.AAA11921@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 27 May 1999 10:07:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 07:53:45 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.34/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > > Ah, a volunteer. Do you collect entries? > > > Aachen, Germany, 50.7N, 6.2E > > > > The resolution is a little low! You should borrow someones GPS unit :) > > The accuracy is a little low! You should borrow a military unit :) Why would you need better resolution? There are no embassies around here. :-) tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 1:15:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE1B14E9D for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28396; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:15:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd028377; Thu May 27 01:15:18 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA12655; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:15:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905270815.BAA12655@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:15:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905270249.VAA08912@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at May 26, 99 09:49:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > How is it stability-wise? That seems to be the major reason most people use > > the Linux version over the native one. > > So-far about the same. There are some sites that seem to cause problems > with both of 'em. Linux kernel threads have similar problems on preemption, but since they aren't as concurrent as FreeBSD user space or Macintosh threads, and they tend to serialize work in the scheduler, the Linux threads are not so obviously broken -- but they are broken (yes, even on Linux). Netscape needs someone who actually understands the concepts of threading at a much more detailed level than just one or two platforms to revise their threading code for them. I'd probably do that, but my current free time project is hacking up SLPv2 and Salutation implementations; they only bear on Mozilla in that you no longer need to configure my version of the browser. At all. Period. 8^). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 1:17: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ABA814E9D for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:16:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA12482; Thu, 27 May 1999 03:16:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 03:16:52 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 Message-ID: <19990527031652.E6251@futuresouth.com> References: <19990526195756.D6251@futuresouth.com> <199905270808.BAA12377@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199905270808.BAA12377@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Thu, May 27, 1999 at 08:08:21AM +0000 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 27, 1999 at 08:08:21AM +0000, a little birdie told me that Terry Lambert remarked > > FWIW, John Dyson's threads are probably more stable than yours. 8-). > > Also, NetScape has a general concurrency problem in its Java implementation; > you aren't by chance using the browser with Java enabled? Nope. ;> > Maybe someone to whom Netscape would listen could report this to them? > It would help out their Macintosh version as well, FWIW. My good reproducible *blat* here is on access-restricted pages. First page, pops up the box, enter uname/passwd, fine. Link to a second page under that directory, it pops up *3* boxes asking uname/passwd. Do whatever with the first, whatever with the second, soon's I hit OK or CANCEL on the second, sig10 and *plop*. Tried all combinations of entering info, cancelling, and dancing naked in front of it (after hours, of course). -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller MF4839 http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 1:24:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990F314E9D for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:24:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29707; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:24:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd029697; Thu May 27 01:24:43 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA12959; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:24:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905270824.BAA12959@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 To: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:24:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990527031652.E6251@futuresouth.com> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at May 27, 99 03:16:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Also, NetScape has a general concurrency problem in its Java implementation; > > you aren't by chance using the browser with Java enabled? > > My good reproducible *blat* here is on access-restricted pages. First > page, pops up the box, enter uname/passwd, fine. Link to a second page > under that directory, it pops up *3* boxes asking uname/passwd. Do > whatever with the first, whatever with the second, soon's I hit OK or > CANCEL on the second, sig10 and *plop*. Tried all combinations of entering > info, cancelling, and dancing naked in front of it (after hours, of > course). What underlying technology do you think they used to implement the login window popup, I wonder? (Not!). You don't think it runs as a seperate thread, so that it's modal relative only to controlled entry "Authentication: XXXYYYZZ" URL's, do you? Moral: Answer the boxes in reverse order, do not delete the windows from whence the boxes derived, and get thee a window manager that stacks windows in creation order (you can get the same thing by opening an unresolvable URL and closing the window from which the "OK" dialog derives on Windows, only they pop up a debug dialog and complain about illegal operations). Then think about the evils of pthread_join... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 1:30:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76BE214E9D for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 01:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA12975; Thu, 27 May 1999 03:30:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 03:30:38 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 Message-ID: <19990527033037.G6251@futuresouth.com> References: <19990527031652.E6251@futuresouth.com> <199905270824.BAA12959@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199905270824.BAA12959@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Thu, May 27, 1999 at 08:24:42AM +0000 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 27, 1999 at 08:24:42AM +0000, a little birdie told me that Terry Lambert remarked > > Moral: Answer the boxes in reverse order, do not delete the windows > from whence the boxes derived, and get thee a window manager that > stacks windows in creation order (you can get the same thing by > opening an unresolvable URL and closing the window from which the > "OK" dialog derives on Windows, only they pop up a debug dialog > and complain about illegal operations). I am answering them in the only order that they accept input at all (LIFO I do believe), I do believe twm DOES stack in creation order, and I don't have any rubber gloves to try anything on the Windows machines reportedly creeping somewhere around the office. ;> > Then think about the evils of pthread_join... Not going there. -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller MF4839 http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 2:10:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A33D1525C for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 02:10:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id LAA24776; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:10:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29699; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:10:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:10:38 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. In-Reply-To: <199905270753.AAA11921@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The resolution is a little low! You should borrow someones GPS unit :) > The accuracy is a little low! You should borrow a military unit :) Hey, in peace times those won't get more accurate than 30 metres? - Marius - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 2:25:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from PhisH.cian.net (tnt-8-232.easynet.co.uk [195.40.204.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C0C1525C for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 02:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from ukonline.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by PhisH.cian.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00442; Thu, 27 May 1999 10:29:20 +0100 Message-ID: <374D1070.25739C4B@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:29:20 +0100 From: "Chris R." Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > > > The resolution is a little low! You should borrow someones GPS unit :) > > The accuracy is a little low! You should borrow a military unit :) > > Hey, in peace times those won't get more accurate than 30 metres? > > - Marius - > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Actually, if you go D-GPS (Differential GPS) you are dealing in decimetres Military i.e. not using the 'selective availability' (a clock messing filter) is measured +/- 10m Commercial GPS is +/- 100m roughly. However users do report much higher accuracy's using GLONAS and GPS+GLONAS systems as the Ruskies aren't filtering output at this time. That said, their satellites keep breaking down so its purely academic :-\ CR To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 3:22: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D629615208 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 03:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA23740; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:22:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA07860; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:22:01 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:22:01 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Mark Ovens Cc: "John S. Dyson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 Message-ID: <19990527122201.A7840@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199905270030.TAA08669@dyson.iquest.net> <374CEF9F.2FE8CA45@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <374CEF9F.2FE8CA45@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Thu, May 27, 1999 at 08:09:19AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 27, 1999 at 08:09:19AM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > > Gang, > > Didn't know where to post this, so just thought > > that I'd tell you that if you are running the > > Linux version of 4.6, give the FreeBSD version a > > try if you can. It really seems LOTS faster on > > startup, and might even be faster in general for > > some reason. > > > > Thanks for the tip. > > Have they fixed the crap text search algorithm yet? With 4.5 you > measure the search time for large (couple of hundred KB) HTML docs in > minutes! Actually, this does not seem to be a problem with the search algorithm, but rather with something in the redraw code. The long search time is due to memory use and swapping; I don't know exactly how it manage to use memory, though. I do know the workaround, though: Move the requester where you enter the search term outside the window where you have the actual webpage. (It is one of the weirdest bugs I know of...) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 3:33:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC955158B5 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 03:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:35:58 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C1100276179624@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: "'ip@mcc.ac.uk'" Cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: stupid question: how do I cancel a PR? Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:30:56 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Pallfreeman [SMTP:ip@albatross.mcc.ac.uk] > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 12:29 PM > To: questions@freebsd.org > Subject: stupid question: how do I cancel a PR? > [ML] I don't think you can close it yourself, but someone with the needed privileges could do it if you tell us the PR number. > I think the subject line says it all, although I'm tempted to include > a long > and angry rant about useless engineers, shite hardware and the bad > attitude > of the management at "europe's premier research supercomputer > facility"... [ML] Please, do tell [follow-ups redirected to -chat] /Marino > Ian. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 3:44:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7175114C0B; Thu, 27 May 1999 03:44:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10mxdw-000JCI-0K; Thu, 27 May 1999 10:44:09 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA02603; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:43:29 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA20702; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:43:27 +0100 Message-ID: <374D2177.CA4A1AB8@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:41:59 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: "John S. Dyson" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 References: <199905270030.TAA08669@dyson.iquest.net> <374CEF9F.2FE8CA45@uk.radan.com> <19990527122201.A7840@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Thu, May 27, 1999 at 08:09:19AM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > > > > Gang, > > > Didn't know where to post this, so just thought > > > that I'd tell you that if you are running the > > > Linux version of 4.6, give the FreeBSD version a > > > try if you can. It really seems LOTS faster on > > > startup, and might even be faster in general for > > > some reason. > > > > > > > Thanks for the tip. > > > > Have they fixed the crap text search algorithm yet? With 4.5 you > > measure the search time for large (couple of hundred KB) HTML docs in > > minutes! > > Actually, this does not seem to be a problem with the search > algorithm, but rather with something in the redraw code. The long > search time is due to memory use and swapping; Yes, my HD light doesn't flash, it stays on permanently. > I don't know exactly how it manage to use memory, though. > > I do know the workaround, though: Move the requester where you enter > the search term outside the window where you have the actual webpage. I'll try it, thanks for the tip > (It is one of the weirdest bugs I know of...) > Wierd is an understatement. > Eivind. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 5:48:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B5815777 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 05:48:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16531 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:48:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Obi-Wan chuck Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I like the Obi-Wan Chuck , I think that should be the next FreeBSD cover (with permission from Lucasfilms of course ;) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 5:56:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 51A3D15827 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 05:56:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from conrads@praline.no.neosoft.com) Received: (qmail 70252 invoked from network); 27 May 1999 12:56:44 -0000 Received: from as5200-01-254.no.neosoft.com (HELO dolphin.neosoft.com) (206.27.167.254) by praline.no.neosoft.com with SMTP; 27 May 1999 12:56:44 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Conrad Sabatier" Organization: NeoSoft, Inc. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:55:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Goodbye, FreeBSD! Reply-To: conrads@neosoft.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: <19990527125648.51A3D15827@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It makes me more than a little sad to have to announce this, but with my cable Internet connection soon to be installed, I've started updating my multimedia apps for Windows (even got the Win 98 upgrade pack!), so I can take advantage of all the new, rich, multimedia content the net now has to offer. Unfortunately, FreeBSD has been, and I suspect always will be, seriously lagging behind the mainstream OSes as far as multimedia, and I'm just really tired of feeling "left out". Three years with FreeBSD has been a real learning experience, and one about which I certainly have no regrets, but I've decided I'm tired of doing without all the fantastic new developments out there, not to mention being *really* tired of the relative hassle of installing and configuring apps for FreeBSD as compared to Windows. So, it looks like this is the end of my love affair with FreeBSD, folks. I'm going back to where the good stuff is, and am really excited about it already. Have already setup RealPlayer G2 and RealJukebox, both of which are absolutely fantastic to use, and fantastically easy to install and upgrade. It is *so* nice once again to be able to just click on a file in my file manager, have the associated app come up and have everything just *work*. Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy, but I'm tired of all the work and headaches involved in using FreeBSD (and Linux is not much better, either; tried that, too, a while back). I have been assimilated, I'm afraid. :-) Ya'all take care. I will miss the rich hacking environment FreeBSD offers, but I certainly won't miss feeling like the orphaned stepchild all the time as I visit web sites whose content I'm unable to experience, and being envious of all those great apps that are available for other OSes. It's been real, ya'all. Have a good life, now. Best wishes to all, Conrad P.S. I've already unsubscribed from all my BSD mailing lists, so anyone wishingto reply, please do so directlyto my address. Thanks. -- Conrad Sabatier http://www.neosoft.com/~conrads/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 6: 4:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92278150BA for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 06:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip75.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.75]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346B33706C; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12630; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:04:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:04:03 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: conrads@neosoft.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! Message-ID: <19990527080403.E12386@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990527125648.51A3D15827@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: <19990527125648.51A3D15827@hub.freebsd.org>; from Conrad Sabatier on Thu, May 27, 1999 at 07:55:59AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 27, 1999, Conrad Sabatier wrote: > Unfortunately, FreeBSD has been, and I suspect always will be, > seriously lagging behind the mainstream OSes as far as multimedia, > and I'm just really tired of feeling "left out". Funny I should receive this email while I'm watching a RealVideo feed from NASA TV and considering downloading Shockwave. -- Chris Costello A fault tolerant system must report the faults even as it tolerates them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 6: 8:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2C615853 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 06:08:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 27 May 1999 15:11:18 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C1100276179626@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: "'chris@calldei.com'" , conrads@neosoft.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Goodbye, FreeBSD! Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:06:15 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Costello [SMTP:chris@calldei.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 3:04 PM > To: conrads@neosoft.com > Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! > > Funny I should receive this email while I'm watching a > RealVideo feed from NASA TV and considering downloading > Shockwave. > [ML] I take it you are using Linux plugins for Linux Netscape? Which OS and Netscape versions? /Marino > -- > Chris Costello > A fault tolerant system must report the faults even as it tolerates > them. [ML] Most certainly. Because there is only so many faults a system can tolerate at any single time :) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 6:18:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD42D1582D for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 06:18:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip75.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.75]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D0437072; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12694; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:18:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:18:18 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Ladavac Marino Cc: conrads@neosoft.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! Message-ID: <19990527081818.F12386@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C1100276179626@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C1100276179626@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at>; from Ladavac Marino on Thu, May 27, 1999 at 03:06:15PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 27, 1999, Ladavac Marino wrote: > [ML] I take it you are using Linux plugins for Linux Netscape? > Which OS and Netscape versions? Using the Linux version of Netscape 4.6 and the Linux version of RealVideo 5.0. I'm not using any plug-ins. I (heart) binary compatibility. -- Chris Costello Every bug you find is the last one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 6:43:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23DC114EB8 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 06:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.1.2] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.00 #1) id 10mzvL-0005xE-00; Thu, 27 May 1999 14:10:15 +0100 (envelope-from ben@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 3.00 #1) id 10mzvK-00017X-00; Thu, 27 May 1999 14:10:14 +0100 (envelope-from ben@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:10:14 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 Message-ID: <19990527141014.A4288@rainbow5.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <199905270030.TAA08669@dyson.iquest.net> <19990526195756.D6251@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990526195756.D6251@futuresouth.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > How about a web browser that DOESN'T crash out on me? Mosaic doesn't > have a 'stop' button/function that I've been able to get to work, so > that's kinda out... Lynx? Works fine for me. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 7:44:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web130.yahoomail.com (web130.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AF76F15045 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 07:44:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thallgren@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990527144653.13698.rocketmail@web130.yahoomail.com> Received: from [131.116.188.217] by web130.yahoomail.com; Thu, 27 May 1999 07:46:53 PDT Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:46:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Tommy Hallgren Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! To: conrads@neosoft.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Conrad, What are you talking about? Why can't you do like most of us, use both OS's(by having multiboot or several computers) and use the most appropiate for solving the task. You seem to live in a black & white world, I don't. Regards, Tommy(who use FreeBSD 99.9% of the time) --- Conrad Sabatier wrote: > It makes me more than a little sad to have to announce this, but with > my cable Internet connection soon to be installed, I've started > updating my multimedia apps for Windows (even got the Win 98 upgrade > pack!), so I can take advantage of all the new, rich, multimedia > content the net now has to offer. > > Unfortunately, FreeBSD has been, and I suspect always will be, > seriously lagging behind the mainstream OSes as far as multimedia, > and I'm just really tired of feeling "left out". > > Three years with FreeBSD has been a real learning experience, and one > about which I certainly have no regrets, but I've decided I'm tired > of doing without all the fantastic new developments out there, not to > mention being *really* tired of the relative hassle of installing and > configuring apps for FreeBSD as compared to Windows. > > So, it looks like this is the end of my love affair with FreeBSD, > folks. I'm going back to where the good stuff is, and am really > excited about it already. Have already setup RealPlayer G2 and > RealJukebox, both of which are absolutely fantastic to use, and > fantastically easy to install and upgrade. It is *so* nice once > again to be able to just click on a file in my file manager, have the > associated app come up and have everything just *work*. > > Maybe I'm just getting old and lazy, but I'm tired of all the work > and headaches involved in using FreeBSD (and Linux is not much > better, either; tried that, too, a while back). > > I have been assimilated, I'm afraid. :-) > > Ya'all take care. I will miss the rich hacking environment FreeBSD > offers, but I certainly won't miss feeling like the orphaned > stepchild all the time as I visit web sites whose content I'm unable > to experience, and being envious of all those great apps that are > available for other OSes. > > It's been real, ya'all. Have a good life, now. > > Best wishes to all, > > Conrad > > P.S. I've already unsubscribed from all my BSD mailing lists, so > anyone wishingto reply, please do so directlyto my address. Thanks. > > -- > Conrad Sabatier > http://www.neosoft.com/~conrads/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > === Regards, Tommy Hallgren Briljantg. 31, SE-421 49, Göteborg Tel.: 031 - 770 5232 (Work: Telia Prosoft) Tel.: 0709 - 312 404 (GSM) Tel.: 031 - 47 65 28 (Home) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 8: 0:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F5D1585E for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17654; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:00:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Pat Lynch Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Obi-Wan chuck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > I like the Obi-Wan Chuck , I think that should be the next FreeBSD cover > (with permission from Lucasfilms of course ;) I'm pretty sure that it falls under fair use as its a simple parody. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 8: 8:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 436D114D56 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:08:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17785 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:08:45 -0400 (EDT) From: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone staying at the Double Tree hotel in monterey interested in getting together for a drink or lunch drop me a line. Im looking forward to Freenix. Looks like a good one. Chris World Media Co. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 8:34:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5CE14EB8 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id IAA19529; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id IAA10025; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:34:47 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA20492; Thu, 27 May 99 08:34:45 PDT Message-Id: <374D6614.1F299BF1@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:34:44 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. References: <199905270753.AAA11921@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Ah, a volunteer. Do you collect entries? > > > Aachen, Germany, 50.7N, 6.2E > > > > The resolution is a little low! You should borrow someones GPS unit :) > > The accuracy is a little low! You should borrow a military unit :) Doesn't matter. "Almost" counts in horshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear warheads, unless he has a hardened silo we're trying to crack. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 8:38:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA7D158DB for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:38:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ip@albatross.mcc.ac.uk) Received: from albatross.mcc.ac.uk ([130.88.202.16]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 10n2Ei-0002HU-00; Thu, 27 May 1999 16:38:24 +0100 Received: (from ip@localhost) by albatross.mcc.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA42453; Thu, 27 May 1999 16:38:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ip) From: Ian Pallfreeman Message-Id: <199905271538.QAA42453@albatross.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: stupid question: how do I cancel a PR? In-Reply-To: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C1100276179624@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> from Ladavac Marino at "May 27, 1999 12:30:56 pm" To: mladavac@metropolitan.at (Ladavac Marino) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:38:23 +0100 (BST) Cc: ip@mcc.ac.uk, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: ip@mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I think the subject line says it all, although I'm tempted to include > > a long > > and angry rant about useless engineers, shite hardware and the bad > > attitude > > of the management at "europe's premier research supercomputer > > facility"... > [ML] Please, do tell [follow-ups redirected to -chat] Rather than rant, let me seek wisdom. How on earth do you folks deal with the problem of people who are infected to the point of insanity with the idea that computers crash all the time? How do you convince a person whos only experience of computers is Microslop software that you an operating system shouldn't crash unless there's some hardware problem? Or that just because a PC happily runs Win '95 that it doesn't mean it'll function as a high-volume mail hub or web cache? How do you get though to people that replacing one lot of crap memory with another lot of equally crap memory from the same supplier doesn't mean that it "must now be a software problem" when it still doesn't work? Oh well. I think I'll just go for another ultra-cynical .sig and get back into my box. Ian. -- Network Unit, Manchester Computing, The University, Manchester, UK. mail: ip@mcc.ac.uk | phone: +44-161-275-6006 | fax: +44-161-275-6040 "Europe's Premier Research Supercomputing Facility" We'd rather be down for a week than spend $50 fixing hardware. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 8:44:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8870015315 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17695; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:44:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: scanner@jurai.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'll be there on the 3rd, but staying at the Casa Munras Hotel. If you are interested then, drop me and Lorraine (rage@cyberwitch.org) some email and we'll meet you somewhere. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 27 May 1999 scanner@jurai.net wrote: > > Anyone staying at the Double Tree hotel in monterey interested in getting > together for a drink or lunch drop me a line. Im looking forward to > Freenix. Looks like a good one. > > Chris > World Media Co. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 8:57:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF1614DCC for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:57:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05655; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:57:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990527095144.00b7a320@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:55:29 -0600 To: Nathan Dorfman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990526122522.A26225@rtfm.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990520145111.044f4ab0@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519171814.045d9c80@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990520145111.044f4ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:25 PM 5/26/99 -0400, Nathan Dorfman wrote: >How do you figure? They're not giving away what you're trying to sell. >They're giving away their own code. Not so. It's a classic predatory pricing tactic: destroy the market for a business's product. Note also that those who publish under the GPL are not "giving away" their code; commercial developers can't incorporate it. Rather, they're giving free use of it to those developers' CUSTOMERS, which kills the market, while locking the developers themselves out. The EXPRESS purpose of this tactic is to kill commercial developers. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 8:57:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31F815315 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 08:57:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05658; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:57:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990527095544.00b7e4a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:57:19 -0600 To: , Nathan Dorfman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990526122522.A26225@rtfm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's absolutely true. At LinuxWorld, for example, speakers rallied the troops to take over the market for educational software. ("Give us the children....") The agenda is -- again, explicitly -- to identify markets, one at a time, and destroy them. --Brett Glass At 10:56 AM 5/26/99 -0700, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: >He's labouring under the belief that GPL authors seek out commercial code >and attempt to subvert their markets by cloning the software. > >--- >tani hosokawa >river styx internet > > >On Wed, 26 May 1999, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > > On Thu, May 20, 1999 at 02:54:29PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > That's the purpose of the GPL: to destroy your markets and your livelihood. > > > Making money by licensing software is evil, you see, so We Of The GNU Borg > > > Collective must stop you by giving away what you are trying to sell. You > > > Will Be Assimilated. > > > > How do you figure? They're not giving away what you're trying to sell. > > They're giving away their own code. What is it that you're complaining > > about? > > > > > --Electrocutis of Borg > > > > -- > > Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my > > Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. > > "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching > > train." --/usr/games/fortune > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 9: 3:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED9415315 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-77-225.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.77.225]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23312; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA01869; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: ip@mcc.ac.uk, ip@albatross.mcc.ac.uk Cc: mladavac@metropolitan.at, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: stupid question: how do I cancel a PR? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 16:38:23 +0100 (BST)" <199905271538.QAA42453@albatross.mcc.ac.uk> References: <199905271538.QAA42453@albatross.mcc.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990527120534V.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:34 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 31 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Ian Pallfreeman Subject: Re: stupid question: how do I cancel a PR? Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:38:23 +0100 (BST) > > > I think the subject line says it all, although I'm tempted to include > > > a long > > > and angry rant about useless engineers, shite hardware and the bad > > > attitude > > > of the management at "europe's premier research supercomputer > > > facility"... > > [ML] Please, do tell [follow-ups redirected to -chat] > > Rather than rant, let me seek wisdom. > > How on earth do you folks deal with the problem of people who are infected to > the point of insanity with the idea that computers crash all the time? How do > you convince a person whos only experience of computers is Microslop software > that you an operating system shouldn't crash unless there's some hardware > problem? Or that just because a PC happily runs Win '95 that it doesn't mean > it'll function as a high-volume mail hub or web cache? How do you get though > to people that replacing one lot of crap memory with another lot of equally > crap memory from the same supplier doesn't mean that it "must now be a > software problem" when it still doesn't work? > Biblical wisdom from Solomon: "depart quickly from the company of fools". Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 9:37: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE88214F6E for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 09:36:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 26524 invoked from network); 27 May 1999 16:36:54 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 May 1999 16:36:54 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA10189; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:36:53 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199905271636.LAA10189@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 In-Reply-To: <19990527122201.A7840@bitbox.follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "May 27, 99 12:22:01 pm" To: eivind@FreeBSD.ORG (Eivind Eklund) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:36:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, May 27, 1999 at 08:09:19AM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > Have they fixed the crap text search algorithm yet? With 4.5 you > > measure the search time for large (couple of hundred KB) HTML docs in > > minutes! > > Actually, this does not seem to be a problem with the search > algorithm, but rather with something in the redraw code. The long > search time is due to memory use and swapping; I don't know exactly > how it manage to use memory, though. > > I do know the workaround, though: Move the requester where you enter > the search term outside the window where you have the actual webpage. > (It is one of the weirdest bugs I know of...) > If your window is the focus, then perhaps some kind of operation between the application and X server is happening? I have noticed (a long time ago) that things like huge scroll regions are very slow to manipulate... Wonder if this is a similar problem? (I haven't done any X programming for probably 5yrs now.) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 11:49:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nu.binary.net (nu.binary.net [12.13.120.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEB4159E2 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:49:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nathan@rtfm.net) Received: from matrix.binary.net (nathan@matrix.binary.net [12.13.120.2]) by nu.binary.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA04758; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:49:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by matrix.binary.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA09558; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:49:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:49:12 -0400 From: Nathan Dorfman To: Brett Glass Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! Message-ID: <19990527144911.A8231@rtfm.net> References: <4.2.0.37.19990520145111.044f4ab0@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519171814.045d9c80@localhost> <19990526122522.A26225@rtfm.net> <4.2.0.37.19990527095144.00b7a320@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990527095144.00b7a320@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, May 27, 1999 at 09:55:29AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 27, 1999 at 09:55:29AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:25 PM 5/26/99 -0400, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > >How do you figure? They're not giving away what you're trying to sell. > >They're giving away their own code. > > Not so. It's a classic predatory pricing tactic: destroy the market for > a business's product. > > Note also that those who publish under the GPL are not "giving away" > their code; commercial developers can't incorporate it. Rather, they're > giving free use of it to those developers' CUSTOMERS, which kills the > market, while locking the developers themselves out. The EXPRESS purpose > of this tactic is to kill commercial developers. Why should the commercial developer be automagically entitled to use the free software's code? The free software was not based on the commercial code, it is original code. That's like saying that the express purpose of Linux is to take away market from AT&T -- they create more or less clone of the Unix kernel and license it under the GPL, which doesn't allow AT&T to use the Linux source in their product. Why is this unfair? AT&T never let Linux use their proprietary source code. What about FreeBSD? AT&T could have used FreeBSD code in their commercial product. How does this make anything more fair? Unless of course, you're AT&T and are worried about some competition. Hmm... > --Brett Glass -- Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching train." --/usr/games/fortune To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 12: 4: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A17B14F61 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA86465; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:03:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:03:53 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: annouce@bafug.org, ecsd@transbay.net Subject: Berkeley BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <19990527120353.A86415@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry this is going out so late. Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- Berkeley BAFUG -- The Berkeley chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, May 27nd. This months meeting will be held at Transbay / UC Computers at 2569 Telegraph in Berkeley. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> There will be a general talk/discussion on the trial and tribulations of getting laptops to speak to a network. Bring you laptops and horror stories. ==> Josef Grosch will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-a-thon to be held on June 12th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Cow Palace in Daly City. This Install-A-Thon will held with CABAL and BALUG. See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at UC Computers / Transbay in Berkeley. UC Computers is located at 2569 Telegraph Ave. between Parker & Baker Streets. There is limited parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By AC Transit bus: Routes 40 El Cerrito - Bayfair, 64 Downtown Berkeley - Merritt College, 51 Berkeley - Oakland - Alameda, 52 U.C. Village - U.C. Campus, 7 Del Norte BART - Rockridge BART, and "U" San Francisco - Berkeley stop nearby. By BART: From the downtown Berkeley station, walk uphill (east) one block on Allston Way to Oxford Street at the edge of the UC campus, turning right (south) two blocks to turn left (east) onto Bancroft Way. Walk three blocks uphill to turn right (south) onto Telegraph Avenue. Transbay/UC Computers is 5 1/2 short blocks ahead, at 2569 Telegraph. By Car: By car: From I-80, exit eastbound on University Avenue, and proceed two miles to the end, turning right (south) on Oxford Street. Proceed 11 blocks along Oxford (which becomes Fulton Street) to turn left (east) on Parker Street. Go three blocks to Telegraph, and park where you can. Transbay/UC Computers is at 2569 Telegraph. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.transbay.net http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before May 27th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 12:40:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81AA91597A for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:40:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA30070 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:41:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:41:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Mickey Mouse networking... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Another reason Microsoft sucks...whilst attempting to set an IP address on a NIC in a Win98 box to 10.4.100.255/255.255.0.0, I encountered the error message: "The specified IP address is not valid." I say we take a collection to send the Microsoft programmers to a class on IP subnetting. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 12:54:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A8714E17 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 12:54:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.152.128]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990527195622.QKUY7623210.mta2-rme@wocker>; Fri, 28 May 1999 07:56:22 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: "Jasper O'Malley" Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 07:54:03 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse networking... Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990527195622.QKUY7623210.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 May 99, at 13:41, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > > Another reason Microsoft sucks...whilst attempting to set an IP address on > a NIC in a Win98 box to 10.4.100.255/255.255.0.0, I encountered the error > message: > > "The specified IP address is not valid." > > I say we take a collection to send the Microsoft programmers to a class on > IP subnetting. OK. I'll be the lamb to the slaughter. I understood that ip addresses ending in either 0 or 255 were not to be used. They are both used as broadcast addresses. Is that correct? If the above is correct, why is the IP address supplied above correct? -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 13: 8:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7D815901 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:08:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA60539; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:09:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: conrads@neosoft.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 07:55:59 CDT." <19990527125648.51A3D15827@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:09:07 -0700 Message-ID: <60535.927835747@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It makes me more than a little sad to have to announce this, but with > my cable Internet connection soon to be installed, I've started > updating my multimedia apps for Windows (even got the Win 98 upgrade > pack!), so I can take advantage of all the new, rich, multimedia > content the net now has to offer. I think you'll find there are less clothes on this emperor than you might have imagined, but good luck and have fun, etc. :) > excited about it already. Have already setup RealPlayer G2 and The G2 for linux player works great under FreeBSD, BTW. I'm using it now. Definitely an improvement, especially for video. I can now watch the CNN news reports in all their streaming glory. > offers, but I certainly won't miss feeling like the orphaned > stepchild all the time as I visit web sites whose content I'm unable > to experience, and being envious of all those great apps that are > available for other OSes. I'm wondering what all these great apps are myself. We have plenty of Windows boxes at Walnut Creek CDROM and except for the occasional demo from Sweden, I have yet to see any good apps for it that make me want to switch. Office 98? No way! :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 13:14:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD3B159D3 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:14:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA30637; Thu, 27 May 1999 14:15:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:15:57 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse networking... In-Reply-To: <19990527195622.QKUY7623210.mta2-rme@wocker> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 May 1999, Dan Langille wrote: > I understood that ip addresses ending in either 0 or 255 were not to be > used. They are both used as broadcast addresses. Is that correct? An IP address with all zeros in the node bits is a network address, and an IP address with all ones in the node bits is a broadcast address. The trick is determining what the node bits are, and that's what subnet masks are for. They're contiguous bitmasks that specify the network bits of a given IP address. For instance, 255.255.255.0.0 in binary is 11111111 11111111 00000000 00000000 The ones bits in the mask are network bits, the zeros are node bits. If I've got the address 10.4.100.255 with a netmask of 255.255.0.0, it looks like this: 00001010 00000100 01100100 11111111 ^---------------^ ^---------------^ network node The node portion is not all ones or zeros, so it's a valid node address. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 13:14:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch (unknown [62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 61B5C15901 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 45718 invoked from network); 27 May 1999 20:13:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.128.41) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 27 May 1999 20:13:58 -0000 Message-ID: <374DA781.2C21505D@pipeline.ch> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:13:53 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: Jasper O'Malley , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse networking... References: <19990527195622.QKUY7623210.mta2-rme@wocker> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > On 27 May 99, at 13:41, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > > > > > Another reason Microsoft sucks...whilst attempting to set an IP address on > > a NIC in a Win98 box to 10.4.100.255/255.255.0.0, I encountered the error > > message: > > > > "The specified IP address is not valid." > > > > I say we take a collection to send the Microsoft programmers to a class on > > IP subnetting. > > OK. I'll be the lamb to the slaughter. > > I understood that ip addresses ending in either 0 or 255 were not to be > used. They are both used as broadcast addresses. Is that correct? No. The network address ("dot 0") and the broadcast address ("dot 255") is specified by the netmask. The first address in the range is the network address and the last is the broadcast address. What you probably assume is an Class-C Network (= Netmask 255.255.255.0). This isn't correct anymore. Everything is specified through the netmask. > If the above is correct, why is the IP address supplied above correct? It is correct because the netmask says us the network address is 10.4.0.0 and the broadcast address is 10.4.255.255. -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 13:25:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E4314D07 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:25:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:25:17 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jasper O'Malley" , "Dan Langille" Cc: Subject: RE: Mickey Mouse networking... Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:25:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bea87f$08a86840$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And even if you assume that Microsoft is trying to remain compatible with older classful implementations, this is class B space. So even under the old rules, forgetting about VLSM and CIDR, this address would _still_ be valid. It's clearly valid under classless rules, as already pointed out. DS > On Fri, 28 May 1999, Dan Langille wrote: > > > I understood that ip addresses ending in either 0 or 255 were not to be > > used. They are both used as broadcast addresses. Is that correct? > > An IP address with all zeros in the node bits is a network address, and an > IP address with all ones in the node bits is a broadcast address. The > trick is determining what the node bits are, and that's what subnet masks > are for. They're contiguous bitmasks that specify the network bits of a > given IP address. > > For instance, 255.255.255.0.0 in binary is > > 11111111 11111111 00000000 00000000 > > The ones bits in the mask are network bits, the zeros are node bits. If > I've got the address 10.4.100.255 with a netmask of 255.255.0.0, it looks > like this: > > 00001010 00000100 01100100 11111111 > ^---------------^ ^---------------^ > network node > > The node portion is not all ones or zeros, so it's a valid node address. > > Cheers, > Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 13:35: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 597BE1511F for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:34:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA30995; Thu, 27 May 1999 14:36:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:36:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: David Schwartz Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Mickey Mouse networking... In-Reply-To: <000201bea87f$08a86840$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > And even if you assume that Microsoft is trying to remain > compatible with older classful implementations, this is class B space. Not to nitpick, but the 10 network is a Class A network. But you're right, even under classful addressing, 10.4.100.255 is a valid node address. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 13:38:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369BE15114 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:38:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 27 May 1999 13:38:09 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: "Dan Langille" , Subject: RE: Mickey Mouse networking... Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:38:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bea880$d51cfe80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 27 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > And even if you assume that Microsoft is trying to remain > > compatible with older classful implementations, this is class B space. > > Not to nitpick, but the 10 network is a Class A network. But you're right, > even under classful addressing, 10.4.100.255 is a valid node address. > > Cheers, > Mick If we're going to educate, we might as well get it 100% right. Who knows, Microsoft might be following this list and we wouldn't want to steer them wrong. ;) DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 14:20:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28563159EC for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 14:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA31745 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 15:22:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:22:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse networking... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 May 1999, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > Another reason Microsoft sucks...whilst attempting to set an IP address on > a NIC in a Win98 box to 10.4.100.255/255.255.0.0, I encountered the error > message: > > "The specified IP address is not valid." Even better, I just checked and had no problem assigning the address 192.168.1.127 with a netmask of 255.255.255.128 to an interface. As near as I can tell, the only check performed is whether or not there's a 255 in the final octet or the address, since 10.4.255.100/255.255.0.0 and 192.168.1.0/255.255.0.0 both work fine. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 14:23:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0CD115873 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 14:23:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01142 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 17:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:23:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Artwork ideas? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Any ideas for catchy slogans for these? http://www.jurai.net/~autumn/tmp/ The best I could come up with was something along the lines of "Sleep soundly knowing your servers run FreeBSD." Chuck's shoes are missing from the above currently, but check back; they should appear at some point. Also, any ideas for other splash-screen/cd cover artwork? Jordan wasn't much help apart from knowing what images he didn't like. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 15:40:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B90CB14CA3 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 15:40:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 620 invoked by alias); 27 May 1999 22:40:26 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 589 invoked by uid 0); 27 May 1999 22:40:25 -0000 Received: from cdsl201.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.170.201) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 27 May 1999 22:40:25 -0000 Message-ID: <374DC9CC.FFB77574@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:40:12 -0700 From: Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Lynch Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Obi-Wan chuck References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat Lynch wrote: > > I like the Obi-Wan Chuck , I think that should be the next FreeBSD cover > (with permission from Lucasfilms of course ;) I like the name Obi-Wan Chuckobi better. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 16: 5:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FF1A150CD for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 16:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 66177 invoked from network); 27 May 1999 23:05:22 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 27 May 1999 23:05:22 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:04:59 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz References: Your message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 07:55:59 CDT." <19990527125648.51A3D15827@hub.freebsd.org> In-reply-to: <60535.927835747@zippy.cdrom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990527230526.8FF1A150CD@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I'm wondering what all these great apps are myself. We have plenty > of Windows boxes at Walnut Creek CDROM and except for the occasional > demo from Sweden, I have yet to see any good apps for it that make > me want to switch. Office 98? No way! :-) Games! Helicopter flight simulators, specifically, in my case. My TNT2 Ultra with LCD 3D glasses finally arrived this morning (an Asus V3800 Deluxe), hopefully when I install it tonight it'll even work! -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade" http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 16:18:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E5514C3D for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Received: from guppy.dons.net.au (guppy.dons.net.au [203.31.81.9]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA41864; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:48:34 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990527125648.51A3D15827@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:48:34 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel J. O'Connor" To: conrads@neosoft.com Subject: RE: Goodbye, FreeBSD! Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-May-99 Conrad Sabatier wrote: > Unfortunately, FreeBSD has been, and I suspect always will be, > seriously lagging behind the mainstream OSes as far as multimedia, > and I'm just really tired of feeling "left out". Yes, still give that its main focus is 'server OS' I think you probably picked the wrong ship to sail on when you started off.. > fantastically easy to install and upgrade. It is *so* nice once > again to be able to just click on a file in my file manager, have the > associated app come up and have everything just *work*. Ahh well, you just wait until you get to reinstall Windows a few times.. it takes the fun edge away from everything 'just working'. > Ya'all take care. I will miss the rich hacking environment FreeBSD > offers, but I certainly won't miss feeling like the orphaned > stepchild all the time as I visit web sites whose content I'm unable > to experience, and being envious of all those great apps that are > available for other OSes. Why don't you just dual boot? Then you can look at the 'funky multimedia stuff' in Windows (and given that I have avi files Windows media player won't play but xanim will I'm a *little* dubious) and hack around in FreeBSD. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 16:40:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from icicle.winternet.com (icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3852A15093; Thu, 27 May 1999 16:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com) Received: from tundra.winternet.com (nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11]) by icicle.winternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05274; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:40:16 -0500 (CDT) SMTP "HELO" (ESMTP) greeting from tundra.winternet.com But _really_ from :: nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11] SMTP "MAIL From" = nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com (Nathan Ahlstrom) SMTP "RCPT To" = Received: (from nrahlstr@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id SAA05496; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:40:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990527184008.B5377@winternet.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:40:08 -0500 From: Nathan Ahlstrom To: "Brian J. McGovern" , questions@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BOF @ Usenix? Mail-Followup-To: "Brian J. McGovern" , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199905272327.TAA02522@spoon.beta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199905272327.TAA02522@spoon.beta.com>; from Brian J. McGovern on Thu, May 27, 1999 at 07:27:51PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [cc'ed -chat] Actually this has been discussed on -chat. ;-) But no firm data/time was made, that I saw. Pat Lynch is trying to arrange a dinner for all of the FreeBSD folk. See you there. Nathan "Brian J. McGovern" wrote: > This is probably the wrong place to ask (-chat would be better, but who > reads chat? :) ).... I'm curious if anyone on the list is planning on being > at Usenix, and if there is a scheduled BOF, or whether we'd like to put a get > together together sometime during the week? Any takers? > -Brian -- Nathan Ahlstrom FreeBSD: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ nrahlstr@winternet.com PGP Key ID: 0x67BC9D19 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 16:46:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCEF5151A9 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 16:46:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20979; Thu, 27 May 1999 19:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:46:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Craig Harding Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <19990527230526.8FF1A150CD@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you are only using your machine for games...then why were you using FreeBSD anyway? -P ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 28 May 1999, Craig Harding wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > I'm wondering what all these great apps are myself. We have plenty > > of Windows boxes at Walnut Creek CDROM and except for the occasional > > demo from Sweden, I have yet to see any good apps for it that make > > me want to switch. Office 98? No way! :-) > > Games! Helicopter flight simulators, specifically, in my case. > > My TNT2 Ultra with LCD 3D glasses finally arrived this morning (an > Asus V3800 Deluxe), hopefully when I install it tonight it'll even > work! > > -- C. > -- > Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I > Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade" > http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 16:57: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 34E5315214 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 16:56:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 66310 invoked from network); 27 May 1999 23:56:53 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 27 May 1999 23:56:53 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: Pat Lynch Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:56:33 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990527230526.8FF1A150CD@hub.freebsd.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990527235656.34E5315214@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat Lynch wrote: > On Fri, 28 May 1999, Craig Harding wrote: > > > Games! Helicopter flight simulators, specifically, in my case. > > If you are only using your machine for games...then why were you > using FreeBSD anyway? -P That's the home machine, the servers at work run FreeBSD (and very nicely, thank you very much). queasy.outpost.co.nz is our everything server at the moment (mail, www, gateway etc). We've got another machine which provides file services for the PCs and Macs here, which is currently on a private network address. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade" http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 17:42:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop05.iname.net (pop05.iname.net [165.251.8.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D53615137 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 17:42:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r23.bfm.org [208.18.213.119]) by pop05.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA05197; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:42:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990527194221.00967b10@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:42:21 -0500 To: ip@mcc.ac.uk, mladavac@metropolitan.at (Ladavac Marino) From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Convincing people Cc: ip@mcc.ac.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905271538.QAA42453@albatross.mcc.ac.uk> References: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C1100276179624@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:38 27-05-1999 +0100, Ian Pallfreeman wrote: How do >you convince a person whos only experience of computers is Microslop software >that you an operating system shouldn't crash unless there's some hardware >problem? Or that just because a PC happily runs Win '95 that it doesn't mean >it'll function as a high-volume mail hub or web cache? How do you convince them? With great difficulty. About two days ago I received email from a person who sells an Internet marketing course (I participate in the associate program for this course). Let me emphasize this person is no quack, is very intelligent, and offers very good advice in the course. Anyway, the message was about this great new free program called mailmerge that this person wanted the associates to know about. I took a look at the mailmerge website, and sent a reply to this person whom I highly respect (seriously), in which I said: "But it's for Windows! Then again, if it were for Unix, it would be nothing out of the ordinary." I sent it off, and soon received a reply stating essentially: "I cannot comment because I have no idea what Unix is." So, I sent a very long message talking about Unix being around since 1970, and being modular, and FreeBSD in particular being the ideal OS for the Intel platform, powerful yet free, and Unix on a 386 running circles around Windows on a Pentium, and how the Internet was created under and for Unix, etc, etc, a really long detailed message. Then I got a very short reply (except for quoting my entire message) saying roughly: "I did not know Unix was an operating system. Sounds like it is something we should all use. Unfortunately, Microsoft got to us first." Again, this is a very intelligent person with many excellent ideas about Internet marketing. So, I repeat, you convince them with great difficulty. If you convince them at all... Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.20 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 17:47:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop04.iname.net (pop04.iname.net [165.251.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9995614CB6 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 17:47:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r23.bfm.org [208.18.213.119]) by pop04.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA29240; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990527194622.009896d0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:46:22 -0500 To: Brett Glass , Nathan Dorfman From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: 007 Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, spork , James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990527095144.00b7a320@localhost> References: <19990526122522.A26225@rtfm.net> <4.2.0.37.19990520145111.044f4ab0@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990519171814.045d9c80@localhost> <4.2.0.37.19990520145111.044f4ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:55 27-05-1999 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >The EXPRESS purpose of this tactic is to kill commercial developers. Perhaps then we should best refer to GPL as "license to kill." :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.20 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 17:57:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (unknown [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF44F14CB6; Thu, 27 May 1999 17:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01547; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:33:14 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:33:14 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Nathan Ahlstrom Cc: "Brian J. McGovern" , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BOF @ Usenix? Message-ID: <19990527183314.A1406@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <199905272327.TAA02522@spoon.beta.com> <19990527184008.B5377@winternet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990527184008.B5377@winternet.com>; from Nathan Ahlstrom on Thu, May 27, 1999 at 06:40:08PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 27, 1999 at 06:40:08PM -0500, Nathan Ahlstrom wrote: > > [cc'ed -chat] > > Actually this has been discussed on -chat. ;-) But no firm data/time was > made, that I saw. Pat Lynch is trying to arrange a dinner for all of the > FreeBSD folk. > > See you there. count me in :) will you post a sign at the usual board or something? -Oscar > > "Brian J. McGovern" wrote: > > This is probably the wrong place to ask (-chat would be better, but who > > reads chat? :) ).... I'm curious if anyone on the list is planning on being > > at Usenix, and if there is a scheduled BOF, or whether we'd like to put a get > > together together sometime during the week? Any takers? > > -Brian > > -- > Nathan Ahlstrom FreeBSD: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > nrahlstr@winternet.com PGP Key ID: 0x67BC9D19 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > -- For PGP Public Key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 18: 9:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spoon.beta.com (mcgovern.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.8.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2993B14E3D; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mcgovern@spoon.beta.com) Received: from spoon.beta.com (localhost.beta.com [127.0.0.1]) by spoon.beta.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA02693; Thu, 27 May 1999 21:09:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mcgovern@spoon.beta.com) Message-Id: <199905280109.VAA02693@spoon.beta.com> To: Nathan Ahlstrom Cc: "Brian J. McGovern" , questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BOF @ Usenix? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 18:40:08 CDT." <19990527184008.B5377@winternet.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:09:12 -0400 From: "Brian J. McGovern" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Figures. The one time I don't follow the rules :) I've always seen it discussed on -hackers before. Anyhow, if I can be added to "the list", I'd greatly appreciate it. Most of my time there will be spent on the Freenix track. I'm flying in Saturday afternoon, and leaving Friday. I'm also thinking about trying to find a helicopter Wednesday (I'm a pilot), and maybe so some sight seeing, in case anyone wants "in" on those plans. :) -Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 18:25:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC521592D; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:25:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA14760; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:23:28 -0700 (PDT) From: rick hamell To: pdx-freebsd@toybox.placo.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Post PFUG Report Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry this has taken so long; real life sucks. :) Anyways, the last meeting was a great learning experience for me anyways. Ted Mittelstaedt gave a presentation on setting up PPP. I wish we could have had more time, (and working phone lines,) I love getting into the nitty gritty this is why and how things work part of FreeBSD. Anyways, the next meeting should be the third thursday of next month. The place should be the same, PSU's Miller Library, RM #160 I think we'll take a suggestion though and push the meeting time back to 7pm to give more people time to attend. I'd also like to take this time to solicit a speaker and/or topic for the next meeting. I would love to see something dealing with the directory structure of FreeBSD. i.e. what is /lib/compat used for, why some programs go to /usr/bin instead of /usr/sbin, etc, etc. If you'd like to speak, need directions, or wish to be added to the mailing list, please let me know. :) Rick ---- "Religion exists because man can't belive that he's nothing more then a random accident." http://www.grendal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 18:45:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop05.iname.net (pop05.iname.net [165.251.8.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9090A151A9 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r23.bfm.org [208.18.213.119]) by pop05.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA08448; Thu, 27 May 1999 21:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990527204522.009bde30@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:45:22 -0500 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Artwork ideas? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 17:23 27-05-1999 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >Any ideas for catchy slogans for these? > >http://www.jurai.net/~autumn/tmp/ Frankly, if the Jerry Falwells of this world see it, we're going to get some very negative publicity. Instead of Chuck resting comfortably, they will see Satan with one hell of an erection in it... Adam ===> Whiz Kid Technomagic <=== http://www.whizkidtech.net/ The resource center for webmasters and web users Winner of the Starting Point Hot Site award Winner of the Lighthouse Award Home of the Web Magic Award To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 18:47:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63961599A for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:47:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA67393; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:48:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Artwork ideas? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 20:45:22 CDT." <3.0.6.32.19990527204522.009bde30@mail.bfm.org> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:48:15 -0700 Message-ID: <67389.927856095@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Frankly, if the Jerry Falwells of this world see it, we're going to get > some very negative publicity. Instead of Chuck resting comfortably, they > will see Satan with one hell of an erection in it... "FreeBSD - the power to keep it up!" I like it. Kinda catchy. Kinda hip.. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 18:56:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B6C1515E for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-252.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.252]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA00213; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:56:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA53664; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:56:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905280156.UAA53664@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Thomas Gellekum Cc: Warner Losh , Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Roger Hardiman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. In-reply-to: Message from Thomas Gellekum of "27 May 1999 08:33:31 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:56:40 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas Gellekum writes: > Warner Losh writes: > > > > No. But I think it would be reasonable for people to add their own in > > realtime to ${HOME}/.icbm. :-) > > Format? I think its in printcap(5)-like format like this: David Kelly|N4HHE:\ :lat=N34:47.780:\ :lon=W086:45.147:\ :mail=dkelly@hiwaay.net:\ :www=http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly: :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 18:57: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26BE2151F5 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:57:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-252.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.252]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA03336; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:57:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA53672; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:56:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905280156.UAA53672@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Terry Lambert , toor@dyson.iquest.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Note on my experience with Netscape 4.6 In-reply-to: Message from "Matthew D. Fuller" of "Thu, 27 May 1999 03:16:52 CDT." <19990527031652.E6251@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:56:55 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > My good reproducible *blat* here is on access-restricted pages. First > page, pops up the box, enter uname/passwd, fine. Link to a second page > under that directory, it pops up *3* boxes asking uname/passwd. Do > whatever with the first, whatever with the second, soon's I hit OK or > CANCEL on the second, sig10 and *plop*. Tried all combinations of entering > info, cancelling, and dancing naked in front of it (after hours, of > course). This page is quite good at causing Netscape 4.07 to core dump. Mostly when you *leave* that page. Java* disabled. I don't use 4.5 because Java wouldn't stay disabled on next use of Netscape, no matter what the Preferences... was set to. http://comics.sjmercury.com/cgi-bin/comics/show.cgi?PERSONAL You'll have to "register". Then they'll know you in the future based on the cookie they provide. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 18:58:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4834614FA9 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 18:58:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 68DA84035; Thu, 27 May 1999 21:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5DC8F9A8E; Thu, 27 May 1999 21:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:58:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dan Langille Cc: Jasper O'Malley , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse networking... In-Reply-To: <199905271958.PAA01682@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 May 1999, Dan Langille wrote: :On 27 May 99, at 13:41, Jasper O'Malley wrote: :> Another reason Microsoft sucks...whilst attempting to set an IP address on :> a NIC in a Win98 box to 10.4.100.255/255.255.0.0, I encountered the error :> message: :> :> "The specified IP address is not valid." :> :> I say we take a collection to send the Microsoft programmers to a class on :> IP subnetting. : :OK. I'll be the lamb to the slaughter. : :I understood that ip addresses ending in either 0 or 255 were not to be :used. They are both used as broadcast addresses. Is that correct? : :If the above is correct, why is the IP address supplied above correct? The first address in a subnet (any subnet, from a /8 to a /30) is the network address. In 4.2 BSD it was also the braodcast address. The rest of the world, including BSD 4.3 and later use the last address in a subnet as the broadcast address. I don't think windows supports 4.2 BSD compatibility, so the above error is perfectly valid. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 19: 3:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35CF14CAC for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 19:03:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id DE7414035; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D2EC49A8E; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:04:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dan Langille Cc: Jasper O'Malley , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mickey Mouse networking... In-Reply-To: <199905280204.WAA17980@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 May 1999, Jamie Bowden wrote: :On Fri, 28 May 1999, Dan Langille wrote: : ::On 27 May 99, at 13:41, Jasper O'Malley wrote: : ::> Another reason Microsoft sucks...whilst attempting to set an IP address on ::> a NIC in a Win98 box to 10.4.100.255/255.255.0.0, I encountered the error ::> message: ::> ::> "The specified IP address is not valid." ::> ::> I say we take a collection to send the Microsoft programmers to a class on ::> IP subnetting. :: ::OK. I'll be the lamb to the slaughter. :: ::I understood that ip addresses ending in either 0 or 255 were not to be ::used. They are both used as broadcast addresses. Is that correct? :: ::If the above is correct, why is the IP address supplied above correct? : :The first address in a subnet (any subnet, from a /8 to a /30) is the :network address. In 4.2 BSD it was also the braodcast address. The rest :of the world, including BSD 4.3 and later use the last address in a subnet :as the broadcast address. I don't think windows supports 4.2 BSD :compatibility, so the above error is perfectly valid. As he pointed out in a later post, the address above is valid. I made the same mistake mickeysoft did, and only looked at the last octet. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 19: 8:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B13A14CAC for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 19:08:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r23.bfm.org [208.18.213.119]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id WAA22879; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990527210842.009bbc80@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:08:42 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Artwork ideas? Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <67389.927856095@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:48 27-05-1999 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Frankly, if the Jerry Falwells of this world see it, we're going to get >> some very negative publicity. Instead of Chuck resting comfortably, they >> will see Satan with one hell of an erection in it... > >"FreeBSD - the power to keep it up!" > >I like it. Kinda catchy. Kinda hip.. :) Sounds good to me. A nice subliminal message. :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.20 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 19:22:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3BB214CAC for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 19:22:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06077; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:22:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Artwork ideas? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990527204522.009bde30@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 27 May 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Frankly, if the Jerry Falwells of this world see it, we're going to > get some very negative publicity. Instead of Chuck resting > comfortably, they will see Satan with one hell of an erection in it... She didn't put any of the Chuck porn up did she? *checks* Nope. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 19:38:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66BE15109 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 19:38:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id EAA13370 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 28 May 1999 04:38:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id BD78787AE; Fri, 28 May 1999 00:55:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:55:17 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? Message-ID: <19990528005517.A87003@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: ; from scanner@jurai.net on Thu, May 27, 1999 at 11:08:45AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5322 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to scanner@jurai.net: > Anyone staying at the Double Tree hotel in monterey interested in getting > together for a drink or lunch drop me a line. Im looking forward to > Freenix. Looks like a good one. Methinks there will be a lot of drinks around here :-) We (Phil, Vincent and me) frenchies will be at the DoubleTree on the 4th (Phil), 5th (me) and 6th (Vincent). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #71: Sun May 9 20:16:32 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 19:53: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AFC15233 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 19:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA16761; Fri, 28 May 1999 12:22:59 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA09108; Fri, 28 May 1999 12:22:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:22:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? Message-ID: <19990528122258.R5509@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990528005517.A87003@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990528005517.A87003@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Fri, May 28, 1999 at 12:55:17AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 28 May 1999 at 0:55:17 +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to scanner@jurai.net: >> Anyone staying at the Double Tree hotel in monterey interested in getting >> together for a drink or lunch drop me a line. Im looking forward to >> Freenix. Looks like a good one. > > Methinks there will be a lot of drinks around here :-) > > We (Phil, Vincent and me) frenchies will be at the DoubleTree on the 4th > (Phil), 5th (me) and 6th (Vincent). Yes, I'll be at the Doubletree as well. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 20:37: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4A6814FC3 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA22778; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <374E0EE8.EEF4A2C1@seattleu.edu> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:35:04 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Matthew N. Dodd" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Artwork ideas? References: <67389.927856095@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Frankly, if the Jerry Falwells of this world see it, we're going to get > > some very negative publicity. Instead of Chuck resting comfortably, they > > will see Satan with one hell of an erection in it... > > "FreeBSD - the power to keep it up!" > > I like it. Kinda catchy. Kinda hip.. :) > So long as we don't end up with "Chuck Dole" "FreeBSD - The Viagra of the computing industry" (This is going from bad to worse, lets just stop know) -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 27 20:41:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E01614FC3 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:41:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@sd2.mailbank.com) Received: (qmail 8302 invoked from network); 28 May 1999 03:41:27 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 28 May 1999 03:41:27 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA05737; Thu, 27 May 1999 22:41:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199905280341.WAA05737@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Free VMWare and open BIOS! In-Reply-To: <19990527144911.A8231@rtfm.net> from Nathan Dorfman at "May 27, 99 02:49:12 pm" To: nathan@rtfm.net (Nathan Dorfman) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:41:18 -0500 (EST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, unknown@riverstyx.net, spork@super-g.com, howardjp@wam.umd.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nathan Dorfman said: > > > > Note also that those who publish under the GPL are not "giving away" > > their code; commercial developers can't incorporate it. Rather, they're > > giving free use of it to those developers' CUSTOMERS, which kills the > > market, while locking the developers themselves out. The EXPRESS purpose > > of this tactic is to kill commercial developers. > > Why should the commercial developer be automagically entitled to > use the free software's code? The free software was not based on > the commercial code, it is original code. > There is no way that any developer should be forced to "automgically" give away their code. However, software is either free or not, and by restricting it's use so that it isn't free, then the software isn't free. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 0:53: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (zabagek.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0028F14D86 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 00:50:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from tg@localhost) by zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA14992; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:52:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tg) To: David Kelly Cc: Warner Losh , Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Roger Hardiman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. References: <199905280156.UAA53664@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 28 May 1999 09:52:08 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Kelly's message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 20:56:40 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.34/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly writes: > :lat=N34:47.780:\ ^ Are you sure? tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 1:54: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670A614D8C for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 01:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA05265; Fri, 28 May 1999 10:53:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Artwork ideas? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 May 1999 10:53:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Matthew N. Dodd"'s message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 17:23:30 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew N. Dodd" writes: > http://www.jurai.net/~autumn/tmp/ Nice! My favorites are 1, 6 and 11. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 3:48:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.128.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AD414F84; Fri, 28 May 1999 03:48:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org) Received: from keep.lan.Awfulhak.org (keep.lan.Awfulhak.org [172.16.0.8]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30191; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:48:14 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org) Received: from keep.lan.Awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by keep.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03748; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:47:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199905281047.LAA03748@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Brian J. McGovern" Cc: Nathan Ahlstrom , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BOF @ Usenix? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 21:09:12 EDT." <199905280109.VAA02693@spoon.beta.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:47:39 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Figures. The one time I don't follow the rules :) I've always seen it discussed > on -hackers before. > > Anyhow, if I can be added to "the list", I'd greatly appreciate it. Most of > my time there will be spent on the Freenix track. I'm flying in Saturday [.....] That goes for me too (I'd like to be added to any ``list'') - I'll just be around for the Freenix side of things though. -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 7:51:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 081B015323 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 07:51:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16273; Fri, 28 May 1999 10:50:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:50:57 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Greg Lehey Cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? In-Reply-To: <19990528122258.R5509@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 28 May 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Methinks there will be a lot of drinks around here :-) > > > > We (Phil, Vincent and me) frenchies will be at the DoubleTree on the 4th > > (Phil), 5th (me) and 6th (Vincent). > > Yes, I'll be at the Doubletree as well. Excellent. I arrive on the 8th. I am only going for the Freenix track like most of us. Whats everyones schedule look like for the 8th? Maybe we could all grab dinner or go check out some local sites. Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 8:32:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952CB153AE for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:32:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26297; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:32:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: scanner@jurai.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm scoping out places for the dinner when I get there, DInner will probably be on Tuesday Night (the "official" FreeBSD one ;)) I'm cc:ing thsi to -chat too ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 28 May 1999 scanner@jurai.net wrote: > > > I'll be there on the 3rd, but staying at the Casa Munras Hotel. If you are > > interested then, drop me and Lorraine (rage@cyberwitch.org) some email and > > we'll meet you somewhere. -Pat > > Pat, > > I arrive on the 8th. I only want to be in on the freenix treack :-) > Greg is staying at the double tree as well. Whats the word on a dinner? > Im checking to see what everyones calendar is on the 8th. To see if we can > all get together for a dinner or some site seeing or just hanging out. > > Whats your schedule look like? > > Chris > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 13: 3:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4887314FB8 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 13:03:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA07395; Fri, 28 May 1999 12:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA05915; Fri, 28 May 1999 12:58:23 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA10601; Fri, 28 May 99 12:58:12 PDT Message-Id: <374EF553.F714BDDD@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:58:11 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: Thomas Gellekum , Warner Losh , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Roger Hardiman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. References: <199905280156.UAA53664@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > Thomas Gellekum writes: > > Warner Losh writes: > > > > > > No. But I think it would be reasonable for people to add their own in > > > realtime to ${HOME}/.icbm. :-) > > > > Format? > > I think its in printcap(5)-like format like this: > > David Kelly|N4HHE:\ > :lat=N34:47.780:\ > :lon=W086:45.147:\ > :mail=dkelly@hiwaay.net:\ > :www=http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly: This type of information -- phone number, office location, etc., is typically kept in the password file gecos field. See passwd(5) for more information. The FreeBSD chpass(1) program currently asks the user for an "Other information" field, we can supply three sub-fields for lattitude and longitude in decimal degrees (North and East as positive values) and altitude in decimal meters. Example: wes@homer$ chpass You see the followin in your EDITOR: #Changing user database information for wes. Shell: /usr/local/bin/bash Full Name: Wes Peters Location: Great Salt Lake Office Phone: 801.915.2061 Home Phone: Other information: 40.55/-111.90/1470.77 The resulting gecos field is: Wes Peters,Great Salt Lake,801.915.2061,,40.55/-111.90/1470.77 This seems more "UNIXy" to me. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 18: 6:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8D814D77 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:06:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA21558; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:36:33 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA18073; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:36:32 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:36:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Pat Lynch Cc: scanner@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? Message-ID: <19990529103631.U5509@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Fri, May 28, 1999 at 11:32:14AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 28 May 1999 at 11:32:14 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: > On Fri, 28 May 1999 scanner@jurai.net wrote: > >> >>> I'll be there on the 3rd, but staying at the Casa Munras Hotel. If you are >>> interested then, drop me and Lorraine (rage@cyberwitch.org) some email and >>> we'll meet you somewhere. -Pat >> >> Pat, >> >> I arrive on the 8th. I only want to be in on the freenix treack :-) >> Greg is staying at the double tree as well. Whats the word on a dinner? >> Im checking to see what everyones calendar is on the 8th. To see if we can >> all get together for a dinner or some site seeing or just hanging out. > > I'm scoping out places for the dinner when I get there, DInner will > probably be on Tuesday Night (the "official" FreeBSD one ;)) Tuesday night? Is that the plan? Doesn't sound too good to me: not everybody will be there by that time. I will, but I'll be pretty jet-lagged. I was expecting Thursday. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 18:26:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 110DA14EE1 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:26:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29806; Fri, 28 May 1999 21:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:25:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Greg Lehey Cc: scanner@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? In-Reply-To: <19990529103631.U5509@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thursday might be real bad too if you see the BoF schedule for Thursday night. I don;t care which night it is, To have the dinner tuesday night was suggested to me by someone else (I won't name names ;)) Someone's gotta give me a little direction here ;) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 29 May 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 28 May 1999 at 11:32:14 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: > > On Fri, 28 May 1999 scanner@jurai.net wrote: > > > >> > >>> I'll be there on the 3rd, but staying at the Casa Munras Hotel. If you are > >>> interested then, drop me and Lorraine (rage@cyberwitch.org) some email and > >>> we'll meet you somewhere. -Pat > >> > >> Pat, > >> > >> I arrive on the 8th. I only want to be in on the freenix treack :-) > >> Greg is staying at the double tree as well. Whats the word on a dinner? > >> Im checking to see what everyones calendar is on the 8th. To see if we can > >> all get together for a dinner or some site seeing or just hanging out. > > > > I'm scoping out places for the dinner when I get there, DInner will > > probably be on Tuesday Night (the "official" FreeBSD one ;)) > > Tuesday night? Is that the plan? Doesn't sound too good to me: not > everybody will be there by that time. I will, but I'll be pretty > jet-lagged. I was expecting Thursday. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 18:27:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF7615B1F for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:27:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA21680; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:57:36 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA18231; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:57:35 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:57:34 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Pat Lynch Cc: scanner@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? Message-ID: <19990529105734.V5509@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990529103631.U5509@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Fri, May 28, 1999 at 09:25:50PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 28 May 1999 at 21:25:50 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: > On Sat, 29 May 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Friday, 28 May 1999 at 11:32:14 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: >>> On Fri, 28 May 1999 scanner@jurai.net wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> I'll be there on the 3rd, but staying at the Casa Munras Hotel. If you are >>>>> interested then, drop me and Lorraine (rage@cyberwitch.org) some email and >>>>> we'll meet you somewhere. -Pat >>>> >>>> Pat, >>>> >>>> I arrive on the 8th. I only want to be in on the freenix treack :-) >>>> Greg is staying at the double tree as well. Whats the word on a dinner? >>>> Im checking to see what everyones calendar is on the 8th. To see if we can >>>> all get together for a dinner or some site seeing or just hanging out. >>> >>> I'm scoping out places for the dinner when I get there, DInner will >>> probably be on Tuesday Night (the "official" FreeBSD one ;)) >> >> Tuesday night? Is that the plan? Doesn't sound too good to me: not >> everybody will be there by that time. I will, but I'll be pretty >> jet-lagged. I was expecting Thursday. > > Thursday might be real bad too if you see the BoF schedule for Thursday > night. I don;t care which night it is, To have the dinner tuesday night > was suggested to me by someone else (I won't name names ;)) Someone's > gotta give me a little direction here ;) OK, I hadn't looked at that. What's with Wednesday? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 18:31:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2B614F58 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:31:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29903; Fri, 28 May 1999 21:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:31:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Greg Lehey Cc: scanner@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? In-Reply-To: <19990529105734.V5509@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The USENIX reception I think. 5:30-7 at exhibition hall, and 8-10 at the aquarium. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 29 May 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 28 May 1999 at 21:25:50 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: > > On Sat, 29 May 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> On Friday, 28 May 1999 at 11:32:14 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: > >>> On Fri, 28 May 1999 scanner@jurai.net wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> I'll be there on the 3rd, but staying at the Casa Munras Hotel. If you are > >>>>> interested then, drop me and Lorraine (rage@cyberwitch.org) some email and > >>>>> we'll meet you somewhere. -Pat > >>>> > >>>> Pat, > >>>> > >>>> I arrive on the 8th. I only want to be in on the freenix treack :-) > >>>> Greg is staying at the double tree as well. Whats the word on a dinner? > >>>> Im checking to see what everyones calendar is on the 8th. To see if we can > >>>> all get together for a dinner or some site seeing or just hanging out. > >>> > >>> I'm scoping out places for the dinner when I get there, DInner will > >>> probably be on Tuesday Night (the "official" FreeBSD one ;)) > >> > >> Tuesday night? Is that the plan? Doesn't sound too good to me: not > >> everybody will be there by that time. I will, but I'll be pretty > >> jet-lagged. I was expecting Thursday. > > > > Thursday might be real bad too if you see the BoF schedule for Thursday > > night. I don;t care which night it is, To have the dinner tuesday night > > was suggested to me by someone else (I won't name names ;)) Someone's > > gotta give me a little direction here ;) > > OK, I hadn't looked at that. What's with Wednesday? > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 18:33:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5E014CE3 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:33:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29950; Fri, 28 May 1999 21:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:33:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Greg Lehey Cc: scanner@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I had another idea, will everyone be there Friday night? -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 18:38:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA30815010 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA21731; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:08:34 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA18336; Sat, 29 May 1999 11:08:32 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:08:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Pat Lynch Cc: scanner@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? Message-ID: <19990529110831.X5509@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Fri, May 28, 1999 at 09:33:44PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 28 May 1999 at 21:33:44 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: > I had another idea, will everyone be there Friday night? -Pat I will. But then, I'll also be (physically) there on Tuesday. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 28 18:41:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C8EE150E6 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:41:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17857; Fri, 28 May 1999 18:42:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Pat Lynch Cc: Greg Lehey , scanner@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 May 1999 21:33:44 EDT." Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:42:10 -0700 Message-ID: <17854.927942130@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm taking off back for home, late friday afternoon. The rest of you are more than welcome to eat without me though.. :) I may be somewhat over-socialized by Friday in any event. > I had another idea, will everyone be there Friday night? -Pat > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > Systems Administrator Rush Networking > > "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... > With all good intention I would probably run away..... > clutching the short straw." > > -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 29 5:55: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5E214FC5 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 05:54:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id OAA29903 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 14:56:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id PAA06418; Sat, 29 May 1999 15:02:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990529150212.53963@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:02:12 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Usenix conf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, I'll be arriving from Denmark on the evening of the 4th in Monterey for the conf, but due to some expense restrictions/reservation glitches, I'll only be checking in my hotel (Doubletree) the 5th -- anyone in the area that can host a poor FreeBSD traveller for the night ? :-) BTW, I got some echoes about a planned dinner, but haven't read the latest bits -- anything decided yet ? Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 29 6:30:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E19C14DEB for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 06:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05761; Sat, 29 May 1999 09:30:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:30:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Phil Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Usenix conf In-Reply-To: <19990529150212.53963@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hrrrm, well unfortunately Tuesday still sounds like the best day, even though Greg will be majorly Jetlagged (*sigh*) , so Greg, willing to try dinner on Tuesday? We'll feed you loads of coffee/tea/coke and sugar to keep you awake? -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "And if my owners let me have some free time some day..... With all good intention I would probably run away..... clutching the short straw." -Marillion, "That Time of the Night", _Clutching_at_Straws_ ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 29 May 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Hi all, > > I'll be arriving from Denmark on the evening of the 4th in Monterey for the > conf, but due to some expense restrictions/reservation glitches, I'll only > be checking in my hotel (Doubletree) the 5th -- anyone in the area that > can host a poor FreeBSD traveller for the night ? :-) > > BTW, I got some echoes about a planned dinner, but haven't read the latest > bits -- anything decided yet ? > > Thanks. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 29 7:57: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED44214CFD for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 07:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09520; Sat, 29 May 1999 10:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:56:56 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Pat Lynch Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Usenix conf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > hrrrm, well unfortunately Tuesday still sounds like the best day, even > though Greg will be majorly Jetlagged (*sigh*) , so Greg, willing to try > dinner on Tuesday? We'll feed you loads of coffee/tea/coke and sugar to > keep you awake? -Pat Tuesday is doable. I think quite a few are fyling in on tuesday just for the freenix track though. I am flying in on tuesday. I haven't even seen my airline tickets yet so I don't know what time. What time are you thinking about for dinner? Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 29 21:29:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED56114DAF for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 21:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-141.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.141]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA26392; Sat, 29 May 1999 23:29:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA90350; Sat, 29 May 1999 23:28:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905300428.XAA90350@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Thomas Gellekum Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. In-reply-to: Message from Thomas Gellekum of "28 May 1999 09:52:08 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:28:57 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas Gellekum writes: > David Kelly writes: > > > :lat=N34:47.780:\ > ^ > Are you sure? Can't get away with anything with this bunch! If this was a real utility/resource/feature the appropriate solution would be to convert everything to decimal degrees. Or to use the maidenhead technique I'm EM64-something. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 29 21:36:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from math.berkeley.edu (math.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.183.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94BCD14DAF for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 21:36:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@math.berkeley.edu) Received: (from dan@localhost) by math.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17915; Sat, 29 May 1999 21:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:36:25 -0700 (PDT) From: dan@math.berkeley.edu (Dan Strick) Message-Id: <199905300436.VAA17915@math.berkeley.edu> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone staying at the Double Tree for Freenix? Cc: dan@math.berkeley.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Tuesday night? Is that the plan? Doesn't sound too good to me: not > everybody will be there by that time. I will, but I'll be pretty > jet-lagged. I was expecting Thursday. I strongly favor Tuesday night. Wednesday is the conference reception. Thursday is the next most crowded evening. In addition to the BoFs, I expect most hostility suites to be scheduled for Thursday night. Many people will be leaving Friday afternoon. That leaves Tuesday night. Almost everyone attending the techinical conference will be here by Tuesday night. Conference registration will close at 5:00 pm. We should choose a dinner organizer by "concensus". That person can scope the layout earlier on Tuesday and post notices in the registration area indicating a place and time to collect. I think the real issue should be time. Do we want to go for dinner very early (say 5:00 pm) to minimize conflict with BoFs or do we want to go late (say 8:00 or 9:00 pm) to collect the largest number of late arrivals? (I personally don't care much. I will be arriving on Saturday.) Dan Strick dan@math.berkeley.edu P.S. Those of you in the Bay Area who want to car pool should check out the link on . I don't have any volunteers yet. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 29 22:28:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from math.berkeley.edu (math.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.183.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDCA6152E8 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 22:28:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@math.berkeley.edu) Received: from yuban.berkeley.edu (bqdhvmokrv@yuban.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.183.31]) by math.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18637 for ; Sat, 29 May 1999 22:28:00 -0700 (PDT) From: dan@math.berkeley.edu (Dan Strick) Received: (dan@localhost) by yuban.berkeley.edu (8.8.5/8.6.4) id WAA02777 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 29 May 1999 22:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905300527.WAA02777@yuban.berkeley.edu> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: penguin on a post Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Those of you who have not yet seen the LA Weekly article "Pro-Choice Computing" by Judith Lewis can check it out at: The table of contents for that issue of the weekly describes the article as "Judith Lewis on that other free operating system, FreeBSD." Dan Strick dan@math.berkeley.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 1:50:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BA5150A5; Sun, 30 May 1999 01:50:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA71140; Sun, 30 May 1999 01:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:50:39 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: announce@freebsd.org Subject: Ride share to Usenix conference Message-ID: <19990530015039.A71122@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ride share to Usenix in Monterey The USENIX annual conference is being held June 6 through June 11 in Monterey, CA. This includes a FreeNIX track that will be held on June 9 through June 11. With talks in the FreeNIX such as Marshall McKusick on Soft Updates, Greg Lehey on the Vinum Volume Manager, and other interesting topics this years conference will be well attended. Given the lack of available hotel rooms in the Monterey area and the proximity of the Silicon Valley there will be many who will be driving down to Monterey for the day. The sad news is that parking that is walking distance the conference site is more precious than a hotel room. Considering all this, BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) in general and specificity Dan Strick is organizing ride shares from various locations around the Bay Area to Monterey. If you need a ride or have space in your car please contact Dan Strick (dan@math.berkeley.edu) or Josef Grosch (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com) More info can be found at http://math.berkeley.edu/~dan/carpool/index.html Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 6:26:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E8E150E5 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 06:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (rh12.bfm.org [208.18.213.205]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id JAA09648; Sun, 30 May 1999 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990530082557.0096d790@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:25:57 -0500 To: dan@math.berkeley.edu (Dan Strick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: penguin on a post In-Reply-To: <199905300527.WAA02777@yuban.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22:27 29-05-1999 -0700, Dan Strick wrote: >Those of you who have not yet seen the LA Weekly article "Pro-Choice >Computing" by Judith Lewis can check it out at: > > > >The table of contents for that issue of the weekly describes the >article as "Judith Lewis on that other free operating system, >FreeBSD." Nice illustration, but incomplete. It should include Chuck pounding the nails. :-) Adam --- Visit Count Gracula's Gallery: http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/gallery/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 8:32:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from plab.ku.dk (plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A4614EC9 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 08:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tobez@plab.ku.dk) Received: from lion.plab.ku.dk (lion.plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.49]) by plab.ku.dk (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09570 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 17:32:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tobez@localhost) by lion.plab.ku.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA43074; Sun, 30 May 1999 17:31:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tobez) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Chuck-n-Tux From: Anton Berezin Date: 30 May 1999 17:31:07 +0200 Message-ID: <86iu9abmmc.fsf@lion.plab.ku.dk> Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 - on FreeBSD 4.0-current Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At last I found pictures of a great fun we had at Open Networks 99 in Copenhagen: http://www.on99.dk/pix/07/pic00008.jpg http://www.on99.dk/pix/07/pic00009.jpg :-) -- Anton Berezin The Protein Laboratory, University of Copenhagen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 9:13: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA94214CB9 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 09:12:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viagra_online@usa.net) Received: from adsl-207-105-40-236.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net (adsl-207-105-40-236.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [207.105.40.236]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08611 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 09:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905301612.JAA08611@mail-gw6.pacbell.net> X-Authentication-Warning: mail-gw6.pacbell.net: adsl-207-105-40-236.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [207.105.40.236] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "Medical Center Online" Date: Sun, 30 May 99 09:13:49 -0700 Subject: Pfizer VIAGRA(tm) - FOR AS LITTLE AS $6 PER DOSE X-Mailer: http://www.smartsurf.net/clients/medicalcenter Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.smartsurf.net/clients/medicalcenter Some people may find this subject a bit offensive, but the truth of the matter is Viagra from Pfizer has truly helped many people and even saved marriages. The only problem in the past was that in order to get a prescription for this marriage-saving pill was to go through an EMBARASSING appointment with your doctor. I know, I had to tell a strange nurse why I wanted to see the doctor - it wasn't one of the most comfortable phone calls :-) So if you are one of the many millions of Americans suffering from ED (erectile dysfunction) or you would just like to try Viagra to see if it will increase intimacy with your mate (it will) - here is an opportunity to order it discretely, privately and inexpensively right over the internet. ------------------------------ Need Viagra? No Prescription? No Problem... No appointments, no waiting rooms, no embarrassment. Imagine -- your next order of Viagra is just a click away. MedCenter Online in association with KwikMed, Inc. is able to offer individuals afflicted with sexual dysfunction the ability to order Viagra online --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Genuine Pfizer Viagra(tm) Can Be Legally Ordered Online For As Little As $6 Per Dose (normally $10 per dose - You save $4 per dose) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- click on the link below for information on how you can order Viagra(tm) for as little as $6 per dose: http://www.smartsurf.net/clients/medicalcenter --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It has been estimated that up to 30 million American men suffer from sexual dysfunction (impotence). Until recently, sexual dysfunction has been effectively treated with injections, surgery, and other procedures, many of which are painful and embarrassing. In March 1998, the FDA announced that Viagra® a new drug from Pfizer, Inc., has been approved as treatment for male sexual dysfunction. MedCenter Online & KwikMed, Inc. is able to offer individuals afflicted with sexual dysfunction an evaluation for suitability to Viagra therapy. The evaluation is performed by qualified American physicians in a manner which is simple, secure, and without embarrassment. http://www.smartsurf.net/clients/medicalcenter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 10:11:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8607314A12 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 10:11:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.61]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6CF1; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:10:17 -0400 Message-ID: <37517174.8644A5B7@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:12:22 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Medical Center Online Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pfizer VIAGRA(tm) - FOR AS LITTLE AS $6 PER DOSE References: <199905301612.JAA08611@mail-gw6.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually I have an orange canary with this problem...has this been approved for birds? Sorry, It could save my bird farm... Medical Center Online escribió: > http://www.smartsurf.net/clients/medicalcenter > > Some people may find this subject a bit offensive, but the truth of the matter is Viagra from Pfizer has truly helped many people and even saved marriages. > > The only problem in the past was that in order to get a prescription for this marriage-saving pill was to go through an EMBARASSING appointment with your doctor. I know, I had to tell a strange nurse why I wanted to see the doctor - it wasn't one of the most comfortable phone calls :-) > > So if you are one of the many millions of Americans suffering from ED (erectile dysfunction) or you would just like to try Viagra to see if it will increase intimacy with your mate (it will) - here is an opportunity to order it discretely, privately and inexpensively right over the internet. > ------------------------------ > Need Viagra? > No Prescription? > No Problem... > > No appointments, no waiting rooms, no embarrassment. > Imagine -- your next order of Viagra is just a click away. > > MedCenter Online in association with KwikMed, Inc. is able to offer individuals afflicted with sexual dysfunction the ability to order Viagra online > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Genuine Pfizer Viagra(tm) > Can Be Legally Ordered Online For As Little As $6 Per Dose > (normally $10 per dose - You save $4 per dose) > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > click on the link below for information on how you can > order Viagra(tm) for as little as $6 per dose: > > http://www.smartsurf.net/clients/medicalcenter > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > It has been estimated that up to 30 million American men suffer from sexual dysfunction (impotence). Until recently, sexual dysfunction has been effectively treated with injections, surgery, and other procedures, many of which are painful and embarrassing. In March 1998, the FDA announced that Viagra® a new drug from Pfizer, Inc., has been approved as treatment for male sexual dysfunction. > > MedCenter Online & KwikMed, Inc. is able to offer individuals afflicted with sexual dysfunction an evaluation for suitability to Viagra therapy. The evaluation is performed by qualified American physicians in a manner which is simple, secure, and without embarrassment. > > http://www.smartsurf.net/clients/medicalcenter > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 10:17:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4BE14DBE for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 10:17:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from [212.126.148.182] (helo=cream.org) by scrabble.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 10o9Db-0005IL-00 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 30 May 1999 17:17:52 +0000 Content-Length: 597 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 18:15:14 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Boothman To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD & X Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! I remember, from a while ago, that somebody or other tried to organise a FreeBSD themed desktop competition, that failed through lack of interest. Well, I noticed recently that there's a pretty good FreeBSD theme available for Window Maker on wm.themes.org if you look under the Computers section. I seem to remember that there was some discussion at the time about specifing a default X configration for users who wanted it on installation of FreeBSD. How does XF86, Window Maker, this FreeBSD Theme, and perhaps Gnome sound? --- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 10:22:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A85714DBE for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 10:22:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip78.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.78]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ABE137074; Sun, 30 May 1999 13:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA05142; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:22:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:22:29 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Andrew Boothman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Message-ID: <19990530122228.D1297@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Andrew Boothman on Sun, May 30, 1999 at 06:15:14PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 30, 1999, Andrew Boothman wrote: > How does XF86, Window Maker, this FreeBSD Theme, and perhaps > Gnome sound? Or, if possible, a traditional libdialog (or perhaps totally sysinstall-integrated) interface to choose what desktop environment and theme, if X-User is installed. Using a default like GNOME isn't a good idea in my opinion (since I can't even get it to work on my system at last try!), because GNOME is rather (terribly, completely, dreadfully, grievously) unstable on non-Linux platforms. -- Chris Costello Bad style destroys an otherwise superb program. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 10:53: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0D514E24 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 10:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id TAA18014; Sun, 30 May 1999 19:54:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id UAA08596; Sun, 30 May 1999 20:00:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990530200011.39904@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:00:11 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: chris@calldei.com Cc: Andrew Boothman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X References: <19990530122228.D1297@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990530122228.D1297@holly.dyndns.org>; from Chris Costello on Sun, May 30, 1999 at 12:22:29PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Costello writes: > get it to work on my system at last try!), because GNOME is > rather (terribly, completely, dreadfully, grievously) unstable on > non-Linux platforms. That's an understatement. GMC core dumps regularly, and Windowmaker dies (taking X with it) every couple of hours on my box (1600x1200x32), while KDE runs stable for weeks at a time (though it's a memory hog). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 12: 0:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F53153D3 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 12:00:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem33.masternet.it [194.184.65.43]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA42441 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 21:00:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990530205229.00991f10@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:58:00 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-Reply-To: <19990530200011.39904@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <19990530122228.D1297@holly.dyndns.org> <19990530122228.D1297@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 30/05/99, you wrote: >Chris Costello writes: > >> get it to work on my system at last try!), because GNOME is >> rather (terribly, completely, dreadfully, grievously) unstable on >> non-Linux platforms. > > That's an understatement. GMC core dumps regularly, and Windowmaker > dies (taking X with it) every couple of hours on my box (1600x1200x32), > while KDE runs stable for weeks at a time (though it's a memory hog). I think windowmaker (0.53.0) is quite stable... it never crahs my box (which is up with X running 24/7) with Xfree 3.3.3.1 and Xaccel 5.01. I used kde once, but the orrible way it installs (everthing scattered in /usr/local and not in a /usr/local/kde, pehaps with symlink in /usr/local) prevent me to use it anymore. Never used gnome... but it looks cool... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 14: 3:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1FA151A3 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 14:03:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from [212.126.147.119] (helo=cream.org) by scrabble.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 10oCjt-0000gG-00; Sun, 30 May 1999 21:03:25 +0000 Content-Length: 955 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990530200011.39904@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:00:47 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Boothman To: Phil Regnauld Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30-May-99 Phil Regnauld wrote: > That's an understatement. GMC core dumps regularly, and Windowmaker > dies (taking X with it) every couple of hours on my box (1600x1200x32), > while KDE runs stable for weeks at a time (though it's a memory hog). Hrm. I must admit I've never tried Gnome (I just thought it looked cool). But I've grabbed the latest Window Maker 0.53 and it seems pretty solid on my machine, apart from Wprefs dying once. Even if we didn't use Window Maker, it may be possible to 'port' the theme to another manager like Afterstep. However, I think it would be a good way to help get FreeBSD onto the desktop if we could install a branded GUI at installation. And as I'm not a big fan of twm, I think a new manager is called for. How 'bout XDM? Do you think it would be a good idea to install that as standard if the user chose this new GUI option? --- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 16:59:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E7014C40 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 16:59:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id JAA20691; Mon, 31 May 1999 09:29:06 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA29103; Mon, 31 May 1999 09:30:05 +0930 Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:30:05 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Andrew Boothman Cc: Phil Regnauld , chat@freebsd.org, chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 30 May 1999, Andrew Boothman wrote: > Hrm. I must admit I've never tried Gnome (I just thought it looked > cool). But I've grabbed the latest Window Maker 0.53 and it > seems pretty solid on my machine, apart from Wprefs dying once. > > Even if we didn't use Window Maker, it may be possible to 'port' > the theme to another manager like Afterstep. However, I think > it would be a good way to help get FreeBSD onto the desktop > if we could install a branded GUI at installation. And as I'm > not a big fan of twm, I think a new manager is called for. > > How 'bout XDM? Do you think it would be a good idea to install > that as standard if the user chose this new GUI option? Unless I'm mistaken, Jordan changed sysinstall a few weeks ago (prior to 3.2-R) to give the option of choosing between several window managers to be installed. I don't think it does any desktop customization though, so that's still something which could be done. Kris > --- > Andrew Boothman > http://sour.cream.org/ ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 17:21:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1A414F42 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 17:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from [212.126.147.54] (helo=cream.org) by scrabble.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 10oFpJ-0003Mn-00; Mon, 31 May 1999 00:21:14 +0000 Content-Length: 722 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 01:18:34 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Boothman To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: chris@calldei.com, chat@freebsd.org, Phil Regnauld Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 31-May-99 Kris Kennaway wrote: > Unless I'm mistaken, Jordan changed sysinstall a few weeks ago (prior to > 3.2-R) to give the option of choosing between several window managers to be > installed. I don't think it does any desktop customization though, so that's > still something which could be done. Ah. Could easily be. I've not seen 3.2-R myself. I think we should look into the idea of customising the desktop of a few of the window managers, using the Window Maker one to start us off. Does anybody know much about creating themes for Afterstep, etc? I've seen it on Window Maker, but I'm not sure how it would be implemented under other managers. --- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 18:28:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lab.cba.ualr.edu (lab.cba.ualr.edu [144.167.120.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2385B14BCF for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 18:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@lab.cba.ualr.edu) Received: from access64.mod1.ualr.edu (joe@access64.mod1.ualr.edu [144.167.7.64]) by lab.cba.ualr.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12288; Sun, 30 May 1999 20:28:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:28:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe X-Sender: joe@njal.ualr.edu To: Andrew Boothman Cc: Kris Kennaway , chris@calldei.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Phil Regnauld Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 31 May 1999, Andrew Boothman wrote: > > I think we should look into the idea of customising the desktop of a few of the > window managers, using the Window Maker one to start us off. > > Does anybody know much about creating themes for Afterstep, etc? I've seen it on > Window Maker, but I'm not sure how it would be implemented under other managers. > --- Take a look at http://as.themes.org/ -Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 30 22:14:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E490C14C49 for ; Sun, 30 May 1999 22:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA20737; Sun, 30 May 1999 22:14:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:14:27 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Mark Newton Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel config script Message-ID: <19990530221427.A20715@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <199905310506.OAA13763@gizmo.internode.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199905310506.OAA13763@gizmo.internode.com.au>; from Mark Newton on Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:36:08PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:36:08PM +0930, Mark Newton wrote: > I like "Linux is Luke Skywalker; FreeBSD is Yoda." Linux kisses its sister?! -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 2: 0:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com [195.139.121.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE800150DA for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 02:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paalsom@pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com) Received: (from paalsom@localhost) by pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA01636; Mon, 31 May 1999 11:00:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from paalsom) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:00:11 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E5l_Sommerhein?= To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Message-ID: <19990531110011.A1468@pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Mon, May 31, 1999 at 09:30:05AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 31, 1999 at 09:30:05AM +0930, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, 30 May 1999, Andrew Boothman wrote: > > > Hrm. I must admit I've never tried Gnome (I just thought it looked > > cool). But I've grabbed the latest Window Maker 0.53 and it > > seems pretty solid on my machine, apart from Wprefs dying once. > > > > Even if we didn't use Window Maker, it may be possible to 'port' > > the theme to another manager like Afterstep. However, I think > > it would be a good way to help get FreeBSD onto the desktop > > if we could install a branded GUI at installation. And as I'm > > not a big fan of twm, I think a new manager is called for. > > > > How 'bout XDM? Do you think it would be a good idea to install > > that as standard if the user chose this new GUI option? > > Unless I'm mistaken, Jordan changed sysinstall a few weeks ago (prior to > 3.2-R) to give the option of choosing between several window managers to be > installed. Correct, you have 5 choices: KDE The K Desktop Environment. GNOME The GNOME desktop environment. Afterstep The Afterstep Window manager Windowmaker The windowmaker Window manager Enlightenment The E Window manager (24 bit recommended) Paal Sommerhein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 6:26: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8298614C24 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 06:25:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-72-1.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.72.1]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09318; Mon, 31 May 1999 09:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA01112; Mon, 31 May 1999 09:28:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199905311328.JAA01112@bellsouth.net> To: Andrew Boothman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 30 May 1999 18:15:14 BST." Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:28:10 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How does XF86, Window Maker, this FreeBSD Theme, and perhaps > Gnome sound? I'd suggest leaving Gnome as an optional component and defaulting WindowMaker to the type of menu that can be edited with WPrefs.App. Thanks for the heads up about the FreeBSD theme, haven't seen that. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 6:36:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grisu.bik-gmbh.de (grisu.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6644F14BF1 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 06:36:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@counter.bik-gmbh.de) Received: from counter.bik-gmbh.de (counter.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.131]) by grisu.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA22700; Mon, 31 May 1999 15:36:35 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by counter.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA09504; Mon, 31 May 1999 15:35:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from cracauer) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:35:41 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: conrads@neosoft.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! Message-ID: <19990531153541.A8982@cons.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from "Conrad Sabatier" on Fri, May 28, 1999 at 02:33:18AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It makes me more than a little sad to have to announce this, but with > my cable Internet connection soon to be installed, I've started > updating my multimedia apps for Windows (even got the Win 98 upgrade > pack!), so I can take advantage of all the new, rich, multimedia > content the net now has to offer. [...] > Three years with FreeBSD has been a real learning experience, and one > about which I certainly have no regrets, but I've decided I'm tired > of doing without all the fantastic new developments out there, not to > mention being *really* tired of the relative hassle of installing and > configuring apps for FreeBSD as compared to Windows. [...] > Ya'all take care. I will miss the rich hacking environment FreeBSD > offers, but I certainly won't miss feeling like the orphaned > stepchild all the time as I visit web sites whose content I'm unable > to experience, and being envious of all those great apps that are > available for other OSes. Well, one question: You liked FreeBSD's environment. If you are anything like me, you most liked the fact you with most UNIX ultilities and most free software in general, you preserve the knowledge you gain from one version to another. You preserve an application's setup across its versions. Every minute you invest in underatanding the tools will pay back in improved turnaround times in your work. Why not apply all this to the new contents you enjoy? Text files aren't everything, and the UNIX idioms apply to other areas as well. I personally like FPS games and I seriously suffer from similar problems. But since I run my games exclusivly on Linux and FreeBSD and invest the time I can't play games that don't run on these platforms into understanding the other games' technical requirements, I enjoy both playing and educating myself. Also, my knowledge of Quake's inner workings is a real advantage in deathmatch :-) Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/ "Where do you want to do today?" Hard to tell running your calendar program on a junk operating system, eh? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 7:19:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (D5925.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.157.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D8814DE4 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 07:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA00457; Mon, 31 May 1999 10:18:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 14:18:25 +0000 (GMT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@tankgrrl To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E5l_Sommerhein?= Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-Reply-To: <19990531110011.A1468@pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 31 May 1999, [iso-8859-1] P=E5l Sommerhein wrote: > Correct, you have 5 choices: >=20 > =09KDE=09=09The K Desktop Environment. > =09GNOME=09=09The GNOME desktop environment. > =09Afterstep=09The Afterstep Window manager > =09Windowmaker=09The windowmaker Window manager > =09Enlightenment=09The E Window manager (24 bit recommended) What about FVWM?? :) Cliff Crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- i l i k e o a t m e a l )O( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 7:29: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com [195.139.121.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE52814F4B for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 07:29:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paalsom@pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com) Received: (from paalsom@localhost) by pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01992; Mon, 31 May 1999 16:28:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from paalsom) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:28:56 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E5l_Sommerhein?= To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Message-ID: <19990531162856.A1881@pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com> References: <19990531110011.A1468@pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality on Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:18:25PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:18:25PM +0000, a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality wrote: > On Mon, 31 May 1999, [iso-8859-1] Pål Sommerhein wrote: > > > Correct, you have 5 choices: > > > > KDE The K Desktop Environment. > > GNOME The GNOME desktop environment. > > Afterstep The Afterstep Window manager > > Windowmaker The windowmaker Window manager > > Enlightenment The E Window manager (24 bit recommended) > > What about FVWM?? :) It is not in the menu (/stand/sysinstall). I guess you have to install FVWM via the ports or add it as a package. Paal Sommerhein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 9: 4:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A40914BE2 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 09:04:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id SAA08864; Mon, 31 May 1999 18:06:20 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id SAA10960; Mon, 31 May 1999 18:12:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990531181216.29540@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 18:12:16 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Martin Cracauer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! References: <19990531153541.A8982@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990531153541.A8982@cons.org>; from Martin Cracauer on Mon, May 31, 1999 at 03:35:41PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Martin Cracauer writes: > > offers, but I certainly won't miss feeling like the orphaned > > stepchild all the time as I visit web sites whose content I'm unable > > to experience, and being envious of all those great apps that are > > available for other OSes. > both playing and educating myself. Also, my knowledge of Quake's inner > workings is a real advantage in deathmatch :-) Don't sweat it, Martin, he's just trying to find a way to say: "Obviously I have nothing to offer to the FreeBSD project, so I'll throw the towel and use an operating system that matches my ambition". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 16: 7:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAC8814BB8 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 16:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24399; Mon, 31 May 1999 16:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <375315E1.41C1BD6C@seattleu.edu> Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:06:09 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kernel config script References: <199905310506.OAA13763@gizmo.internode.com.au> <19990530221427.A20715@wopr.caltech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Hunt wrote: > > On Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:36:08PM +0930, Mark Newton wrote: > > > I like "Linux is Luke Skywalker; FreeBSD is Yoda." > > Linux kisses its sister?! > And was fathered by Microsoft? -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu "If you understand what you're doing, you're not learning anything." -- A. L. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 17:20:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1250814D5B for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 17:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id JAA30365; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:50:52 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA31104; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:51:54 +0930 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:51:54 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Eric Hodel Cc: Matthew Hunt , Mark Newton , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel config script In-Reply-To: <375315E1.41C1BD6C@seattleu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 31 May 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > Matthew Hunt wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 31, 1999 at 02:36:08PM +0930, Mark Newton wrote: > > > > > I like "Linux is Luke Skywalker; FreeBSD is Yoda." > > > > Linux kisses its sister?! > > > > And was fathered by Microsoft? "You will submit to the dark side of the Source. It is your des-tiny.." Kris > -- > Eric Hodel > hodeleri@seattleu.edu ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 20:53:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821D514C2B for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 20:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-241.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.241]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA22785; Mon, 31 May 1999 22:52:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37535901.B58595C7@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:52:33 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: Thomas Gellekum , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New resource on freefall. References: <199905300428.XAA90350@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > :lat=N34:47.780:\ > > ^ > > Are you sure? > > Can't get away with anything with this bunch! > > If this was a real utility/resource/feature the appropriate solution > would be to convert everything to decimal degrees. Or to use the > maidenhead technique I'm EM64-something. You mean your GPS doesn't do decimal? -- Kris Kirby (who's father owns a Rb standard :-) Home UAH CS WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 31 20:58:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D749114C2B for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 20:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-241.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.241]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA20741; Mon, 31 May 1999 22:58:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37535A63.854A3504@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:58:27 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: conrads@neosoft.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Goodbye, FreeBSD! References: <19990527125648.51A3D15827@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Ya'all take care. I will miss the rich hacking environment FreeBSD > offers, but I certainly won't miss feeling like the orphaned > stepchild all the time as I visit web sites whose content I'm unable > to experience, and being envious of all those great apps that are > available for other OSes. You forgot red-head. ;-) [Preparing to dodge the incoming objects...] -- Kris Kirby Home UAH CS WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 1: 0: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E2F15373 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15553 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199906010800.BAA15553@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. Josef -- $Id: BayAreaFreeBSDJobs.txt,v 1.1 1999/03/19 09:51:06 jgrosch Exp jgrosch $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 1: 0: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC75715663 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15576 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199906010800.BAA15576@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. This is posted every 1st and 15th of the month. Josef (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com) -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/03/19 09:51:06 jgrosch Exp jgrosch $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 1: 0:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071D41565D for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15595 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199906010800.BAA15595@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area Install-A-Thon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-A-Thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly Install-A-Thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on and June 12th at the Oakland Convention Center. The purpose of these Install-A-Thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Oakland Convention Center is in downtown Oakland on the corner of 10th street and Clay Street. There is come on the street parking but your best bet is lot parking. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Parking is $5.00. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. Admission to the show is $5.00 unless you have a VIP pass. VIP passes can be gotten at Robert Austin's web page (http://www.robertaustin.com). The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace or the Oakland convention center, respectively at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html -- $Id: InstallAnnounce.txt,v 1.4 1999/06/01 06:23:40 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 1: 0:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E19A1564B for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15612 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199906010800.BAA15612@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th. -- $Id: RetailAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/03/19 09:51:06 jgrosch Exp jgrosch $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 9:28:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peewee.cdrom.com (simo-ppp.eccosys.com [199.100.7.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D9B152C0 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:28:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@peewee.cdrom.com) Received: from peewee (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peewee.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09116; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 09:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@peewee.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199906011605.JAA09116@peewee.cdrom.com> To: Andrew Boothman Cc: Phil Regnauld , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 30 May 1999 22:00:47 BST." Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 09:05:06 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org xdm has very little to do with selecting the desktop look-and-feel, unfortunately. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 11:32:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C4D14D5D for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 11:32:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from as_hombert@ibm.net) Received: from ash (slip139-92-48-80.br.be.ibm.net [139.92.48.80]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA103248 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:32:19 GMT From: "Anne-Sophie Hombert" To: Subject: RE: Goodbye, FreeBSD! Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:32:16 +0200 Message-ID: <001001beac5d$132f5e40$01010101@ash> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <37535A63.854A3504@airnet.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ya'all take care. I will miss the rich hacking environment FreeBSD > > offers, but I certainly won't miss feeling like the orphaned > > stepchild all the time as I visit web sites whose content I'm unable > > to experience, and being envious of all those great apps that are > > available for other OSes. Have you ever considered dual boot ? It works fine for me, just have to be fast enough to hit the right key when the system boots up. In fact to be honest, I'm working under NT/Linux and waiting for my FreeBSD to show up in the mail ;-) Anne To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 12:17:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B129A15787 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:17:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18322.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.2]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29941; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA85183; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:16:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:16:31 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Darryl Okahata Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel config script Message-ID: <19990601151631.B85084@mad> References: <199905312315.QAA18260@mina.sr.hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199905312315.QAA18260@mina.sr.hp.com>; from Darryl Okahata on Mon, May 31, 1999 at 04:15:13PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [-hackers -> -chat] On Mon, May 31, 1999 at 04:15:13PM -0700, Darryl Okahata wrote: > > > > Inter-UNIX rivalries are one of things that has kept unix healthy for so > > long. Linux tends to pick up most of the 3L1t3 dudez, who don't know > > Inter-Unix rivalries are one of the big things that's slowed down > Unix development and allowed Windows to thrive. If the rivalries didn't Yaa, just like all the other non-Microsoft, non-Unix operating systems that have been brilliantly designed and are hugely successful due to their lack of inter-os rivalry. > things to do. For those of you who enjoy all this name-calling and > dirt-flinging, I've got one thing to say: grow up and get a life. Uh, name-calling and dirt-flinging has nothing to do with inter-Unix rivarly. That's just a standard side-show that occurs when people have different opinions but either aren't smart enough to know why or simply are tired of explaining why. -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 15:16:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from exchange.quests.com (unknown [192.77.210.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF07115699 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from SBenjamin@quest.com) Received: by exchange.quests.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:16:10 -0700 Message-ID: <1D7D0A00F0E8D111A26600104B873E4C017835FA@exchange.quests.com> From: Scott Benjamin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Binary Compatibility Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:16:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know off hand, where I might find some information on Binary Compatibility. I would like to understand, in more detail, how FreeBSD can run Linux Binaries. Thanks, Scott To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 16: 9:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50FA315839 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:09:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from [212.126.148.21] (helo=cream.org) by scrabble.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 10oxeX-0000f9-00; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:09:02 +0000 Content-Length: 467 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905311328.JAA01112@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:06:21 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Boothman To: W Gerald Hicks Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 31-May-99 W Gerald Hicks wrote: > I'd suggest leaving Gnome as an optional component and defaulting > WindowMaker to the type of menu that can be edited with WPrefs.App. That's probably a good idea if Gnome is as unstable on FreeBSD as some people have reported it to be. Incidentally, is that the port that was unstable. Or has the latest source been checked as well? It may have got better...... --- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 16: 9:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC311583B for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from [212.126.148.21] (helo=cream.org) by scrabble.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 10oxea-0000fE-00; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:09:05 +0000 Content-Length: 562 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199906011605.JAA09116@peewee.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:06:24 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Boothman To: Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: chris@calldei.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Phil Regnauld Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Jun-99 Jordan Hubbard wrote: > xdm has very little to do with selecting the desktop look-and-feel, > unfortunately. :) :) I was referring to the fact that it gets a GUI in front of the desktop user on startup. And that might perhaps help FreeBSD make a bigger impact on the desktop OS market. It could be an option on installation..... Also xbanner allows customisation of the xdm login box, so that we could give it a more FreeBSD-centric look. (ie a few pictures of chuck chucked around) --- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 17: 5:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A8D14CC7 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:05:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16801; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:05:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd016772; Tue Jun 1 17:05:08 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA04391; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:05:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199906020005.RAA04391@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X To: andrew@cream.org (Andrew Boothman) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:05:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Boothman" at May 30, 99 06:15:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hi! > > I remember, from a while ago, that somebody or other tried to > organise a FreeBSD themed desktop competition, that failed through > lack of interest. I think it more correct to say that it failed for lack of a promise of a continued existance other than a single email saying "You win". Something such as implementation as the default FreeBSD desktop on the default install, should you not override the graphical login. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 18: 8:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35B515169 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:08:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22274; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:08:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd022224; Tue Jun 1 18:08:37 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07001; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:08:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199906020108.SAA07001@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Binary Compatibility To: SBenjamin@quest.com (Scott Benjamin) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:08:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1D7D0A00F0E8D111A26600104B873E4C017835FA@exchange.quests.com> from "Scott Benjamin" at Jun 1, 99 03:16:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Does anyone know off hand, where I might find some information on Binary > Compatibility. I would like to understand, in more detail, how FreeBSD can > run Linux Binaries. FreeBSD has an abstraction called an "execution class loader". This is a wedge into the execve(2) system call. What happens is that FreeBSD has a list of loaders, instead of a single loader with a failback to the "#!" loader for running any shell interpreters or shell scripts. Historically, the only loader on the UNIX platform examined the magic number (generally the first 4 or 8 bytsed of the file) to see if it was a binary known to the system, and if so, invoked the binary loader. If it was not the binary type for the system, the execve returned a failure, and the shell attempted to start executing it as shell commands. The assumption was a default of "whatever the current shell is". Later, a hack was made for /bin/sh to examine the first two characters, and if they were ":\n", then it invoked the csh shell instead (I believe SCO first made this hack, but am willing to be corrected). What FreeBSD does now is go through a list of loaders, with a generic "#!" loader that knows about interpreters as the characters which follow to the next whitespace next to last, followed by a fallback to /bin/sh. For the Linux binary emulation, FreeBSD sees the magic number as an ELF binary (it makes no distinction between FreeBSD, Solaris, Linux, or any other OS which has an ELF image tpye, at this point). The ELF loader looks for a specialized "brand", which is a comment section in the ELF image, and which is not present on SVR4/Solaris ELF binaries. For Linux binaries to function, they must be "branded" as type "Linux"; form the "brandelf(1)" man page: % brandelf -t Linux file When this is done, the ELF loader will see the "Linux" brand on the file. When the ELF loader sees the "Linux" brand, the loader replaces a pointer in the proc structure. All system calls are indexed through this pointer (in a traditional UNIX system, this would be the sysent[] structure array, containing the system calls). In addition, the process is flageed for special handling of the trap vector for the signal trampoline code, and sever other (minor) fixups that are handled by the Linux kernel module. The Linux system call vector contains, among other things, a list of sysent[] entries whose addresses reside in the kernel module. When a system call is called by the Linux binary, the trap code dereferences the system call function pointer off the proc structure, and gets the Linux, not the FreeBSD, system call entry points. In addition, the Linux emulation dynamically "reroots" lookups; this is, in effect, what the "union" option to FS mounts (Note: _not_ the unionfs!) does. First, an attempt is made to lookup the file in the "/compat/linux/" directory, *then* only if that fails, the lookup is done in the "/" directory. This makes sure that binaries that require other binaries can run (e.g., the Linux toolchain can all run under emulation). It also means that the Linux binaries can load and exec FreeBSD binaries, if there are no corresponding Linux binaries present, and that you could place a "uname" command in the "/compat/linux" directory tree to ensure that the Linux binaries couldn't tell they weren't running on Linux. In effect, there is a Linux kernel in the FreeBSD kernel; the various underlying functions that implement all of the services provided by the kernel are identical to both the FreeBSD system call table entries, and the Linux system call table entries: file system operations, virtual memory operations, signal delivery, System V IPC, etc.. The only difference is that FreeBSD binaries get the FreeBSD "glue" functions, and Linux binaries get the Linux "glue" functions (most older OS's only had their own "glue" functions: addresses of functions in a static global sysent[] structure array, instead of addresses of functions dereferenced off a dynamically initialized pointer in the proc structure of the process making the call). Which one is the native FreeBSD ABI? It doesn't matter. Basically the only difference is that (currently; this could easily be changed in a future release, and probably will be after this) the FreeBSD "glue" functions are statically linked into the kernel, and the Linux glue functions can be statically linked, or they can be accessed via a kernel module. Yeah, but is this really emulation? No. It's an ABI implementation, not an emulation. There is no emulator (or simulator, to cut off the next uestion) involved. So why is it called "Linux emulation"? To make it hard to sell FreeBSD! 8-). Really, it's because the historical implementation was done at a time when there was really no word other than that to describe what was going on; saying that FreeBSD ran Linux binaries wasn't true, if you didn't compile the code in or load a module, and there needed to be a word to describe what was being loaded -- hence "the Linux emulator". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 18:35:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs1-21.arl.netwalk.net [216.69.200.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3658C14DBD for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA06586; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:19:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:23:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: Andrew Boothman Cc: W Gerald Hicks , wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :That's probably a good idea if Gnome is as unstable on FreeBSD as :some people have reported it to be. : :Incidentally, is that the port that was unstable. Or has the latest :source been checked as well? It may have got better...... : I suspect that GNOME is the culprit here. I've been through every GNOME port since .99 or so, rebuilt each port several times, and it's just never stable. This machine otherwise has never had any problems. It's a little disappointing actually, I like what I've seen of GNOME (while it's running), but it just doesn't work all that well. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 18:41:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9B314DBD for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:41:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12172; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:10:59 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:10:59 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: "James A. Mutter" Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net, W Gerald Hicks , Andrew Boothman Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Jun-99 James A. Mutter wrote: > I suspect that GNOME is the culprit here. I've been through every > GNOME port since .99 or so, rebuilt each port several times, and it's > just never stable. This machine otherwise has never had any problems. > > It's a little disappointing actually, I like what I've seen of GNOME > (while it's running), but it just doesn't work all that well. Yes, its pretty crashy :( I've played with it but I always get sick of it, kill it and do rm *.core in my home directory.. Mind you KDE seemed to be as bad :( --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 19:46:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4810F1507F for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:46:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-139.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.139]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA05884; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:45:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37549AD3.62917A49@airnet.net> Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 21:45:39 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Grosch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bay Area Install-A-Thon References: <199906010800.BAA15595@agora.bafug.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Grosch wrote: > > FreeBSD Install-A-Thon > > BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly Install-A-Thon > in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on and June 12th at > the Oakland Convention Center. The purpose of these Install-A-Thons is for > new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with > FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. By a very interesting coincidence, there will be a linux installfest here (Huntsville, AL) on the same day. -- Kris Kirby Home UAH CS WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 20: 2:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1CF614DE0 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (207-172-144-15.s15.as4.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.144.15]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id XAA04236; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:03:06 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Andrew Boothman Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: Phil Regnauld , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com, Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you want a nice looking login screen for X, check out kdm.. a xdm replacement that comes as part of KDE. On 01-Jun-99 Andrew Boothman wrote: > On 01-Jun-99 Jordan Hubbard wrote: >> xdm has very little to do with selecting the desktop look-and-feel, >> unfortunately. :) > >:) I was referring to the fact that it gets a GUI in front of the > desktop user on startup. And that might perhaps help FreeBSD > make a bigger impact on the desktop OS market. > > It could be an option on installation..... > > Also xbanner allows customisation of the xdm login box, so that we > could give it a more FreeBSD-centric look. (ie a few pictures of > chuck chucked around) > > --- > Andrew Boothman > http://sour.cream.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 21: 9:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC7614DCA for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id NAA09951; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:39:51 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA12870; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:40:51 +0930 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:40:49 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > Yes, its pretty crashy :( Even on Linux, I hear. The 1.0 release apparently was only meant to signify the API freeze, not code stabilization. I gather there was quite a bit of release pressure coming from folks like RedHat.. > I've played with it but I always get sick of it, kill it and do rm *.core in my > home directory.. Mind you KDE seemed to be as bad :( I can't think of any problems I've had running KDE 1.1 or 1.1.1 - it's been very stable for me. The only thing is that it seems to be fairly memory-hungry and my machine (48MB) is swapping a lot more than I'd like. Mind you, 1.0 was -terrible- - in the first 10 minutes of my using it it ate my mouse pointer and dumped core twice. Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 21:13:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9787414DCA for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:13:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13247; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:43:08 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:43:08 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Jun-99 Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Yes, its pretty crashy :( > Even on Linux, I hear. The 1.0 release apparently was only meant to signify > the API freeze, not code stabilization. I gather there was quite a bit of > release pressure coming from folks like RedHat.. Ugh.. damn stupid linux development model at work :( > > I've played with it but I always get sick of it, kill it and do rm *.core > > home directory.. Mind you KDE seemed to be as bad :( > I can't think of any problems I've had running KDE 1.1 or 1.1.1 - it's been > very stable for me. The only thing is that it seems to be fairly > memory-hungry > and my machine (48MB) is swapping a lot more than I'd like. > Mind you, 1.0 was -terrible- - in the first 10 minutes of my using it it ate > my mouse pointer and dumped core twice. Yuck.. well I use Enlightenment and its less fat than KDE :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 21:28:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E03714DCA for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:28:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA02887; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:27:36 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:27:36 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Message-ID: <19990601232736.T6251@futuresouth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel O'Connor on Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 01:43:08PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 01:43:08PM +0930, a little birdie told me that Daniel O'Connor remarked > On 02-Jun-99 Kris Kennaway wrote: > > I can't think of any problems I've had running KDE 1.1 or 1.1.1 - it's been > > very stable for me. The only thing is that it seems to be fairly > > memory-hungry > > and my machine (48MB) is swapping a lot more than I'd like. > > Mind you, 1.0 was -terrible- - in the first 10 minutes of my using it it ate > > my mouse pointer and dumped core twice. > > Yuck.. well I use Enlightenment and its less fat than KDE :) (Sorry, it's obligatory) fullermd 428 0.0 0.6 2660 1452 v0 S 18May99 0:53.03 ctwm Quite stable, lean, quick, easy, unobtrusive, and it really looks just as good once you tweak it a bit. Lot cleaner than anything I've seen out of . And I think syscons + slightly customized startx script (creating .Xauthority record, etc) is a pretty cool looking 'login' screen ;> -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller MF4839 http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 21:32: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90617152A0 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:32:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13341; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:01:43 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990601232736.T6251@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:01:43 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Jun-99 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > (Sorry, it's obligatory) > fullermd 428 0.0 0.6 2660 1452 v0 S 18May99 0:53.03 ctwm > Quite stable, lean, quick, easy, unobtrusive, and it really looks just as > good once you tweak it a bit. Lot cleaner than anything I've seen out of > . Heh, well -> 361 darius 2 0 5540K 1700K select 1 0:49 0.00% 0.00% enlightenment > > And I think syscons + slightly customized startx script (creating > .Xauthority record, etc) is a pretty cool looking 'login' screen ;> Yeah, I wish startx did xauth stuff by default :-/ --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 21:40:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFED15024 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA03453; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:40:05 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:40:05 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Message-ID: <19990601234004.W6251@futuresouth.com> References: <19990601232736.T6251@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel O'Connor on Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 02:01:43PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 02:01:43PM +0930, a little birdie told me that Daniel O'Connor remarked > > > > And I think syscons + slightly customized startx script (creating > > .Xauthority record, etc) is a pretty cool looking 'login' screen ;> > > Yeah, I wish startx did xauth stuff by default :-/ (Yep, I went WAAAAAAAY overboard. But it works) (ttyp6):{403}% cat mystartx | grep auth SERVERARGS=":0 -auth .Xauthority -bpp 32" # Generate the xauth keys bin/authcookiegen.sh 0 [23:38:21] mortis:~ (ttyp6):{404}% cat bin/authcookiegen.sh #!/bin/sh # # A half-decent xauth cookie generator DISPNUM=$1 # Generate the cookie in multiple parts, just for added safety key1=`/usr/bin/vmstat -i | /sbin/md5` key2=`/usr/bin/netstat -i | /sbin/md5` key3=`/bin/ps -gaxuww | /sbin/md5` key4=`/usr/sbin/pstat -f | /sbin/md5` # There we go. Quick check echo "key for display ${HOST}:${DISPNUM} is: $key1$key2$key3$key4" # Now, gen the keys xauth add ${HOST}/unix:${DISPNUM} . $key1$key2$key3$key4 xauth add ${HOST}:${DISPNUM} . $key1$key2$key3$key4 -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller MF4839 http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 21:46:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7963815024 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13466; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:16:01 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990601234004.W6251@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:16:01 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Jun-99 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 02:01:43PM +0930, a little birdie told me > that Daniel O'Connor remarked > > > > > > And I think syscons + slightly customized startx script (creating > > > .Xauthority record, etc) is a pretty cool looking 'login' screen ;> > > > > Yeah, I wish startx did xauth stuff by default :-/ > > (Yep, I went WAAAAAAAY overboard. But it works) > Heh, thats cute :) Why not use xauth generate though? (Not that I know much about this stuff) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 21:50:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD92815024 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:50:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id OAA10210; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:20:02 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA29996; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:21:06 +0930 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:21:05 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-Reply-To: <19990601234004.W6251@futuresouth.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > [23:38:21] mortis:~ > (ttyp6):{404}% cat bin/authcookiegen.sh > #!/bin/sh > # > # A half-decent xauth cookie generator > > DISPNUM=$1 > > # Generate the cookie in multiple parts, just for added safety > key1=`/usr/bin/vmstat -i | /sbin/md5` > key2=`/usr/bin/netstat -i | /sbin/md5` > key3=`/bin/ps -gaxuww | /sbin/md5` > key4=`/usr/sbin/pstat -f | /sbin/md5` Why not just dd if=/dev/urandom bs= The above doesn't give all that good randomization of your key.. Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 21:53: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BD715024 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:52:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA13401; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:52:25 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Dan Strick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: penguin on a post In-Reply-To: <199905300527.WAA02777@yuban.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Funny thing is, I bet no one told her we run the site on FreeBSD... C ;) --- Charles Sprickman spork@super-g.com --- "...there's no idea that's so good you can't ruin it with a few well-placed idiots." On Sat, 29 May 1999, Dan Strick wrote: > Those of you who have not yet seen the LA Weekly article "Pro-Choice > Computing" by Judith Lewis can check it out at: > > > > The table of contents for that issue of the weekly describes the > article as "Judith Lewis on that other free operating system, > FreeBSD." > > Dan Strick > dan@math.berkeley.edu > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 21:58:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4839A15024 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:58:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA03999; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:58:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:58:29 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Message-ID: <19990601235828.Y6251@futuresouth.com> References: <19990601234004.W6251@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 02:21:05PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 02:21:05PM +0930, a little birdie told me that Kris Kennaway remarked > > > > # Generate the cookie in multiple parts, just for added safety > > key1=`/usr/bin/vmstat -i | /sbin/md5` > > key2=`/usr/bin/netstat -i | /sbin/md5` > > key3=`/bin/ps -gaxuww | /sbin/md5` > > key4=`/usr/sbin/pstat -f | /sbin/md5` > > Why not just > > dd if=/dev/urandom bs= Boring! :) Anyone who'll sacrifice beauty for a little extra randomness shouldn't be running X anyway ;> > The above doesn't give all that good randomization of your key.. Actually, it gives a pretty good bit of randomization with md5; it's certainly not absolutely secure, but it'll stand up to any casual attacks. In fact, dd'ing from /dev/random | md5 'looks' less random to my eye; I haven't done any in-depth tests of either, but I think it falls pretty deep into 'plenty good enough'. -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller MF4839 http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 1 22: 1:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 89D2F15024 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:01:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 81150 invoked from network); 2 Jun 1999 05:01:32 -0000 Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.42) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 05:01:32 -0000 Received: from localhost (dscheidt@localhost) by shell-3.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA42101; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:01:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) X-Authentication-Warning: shell-3.enteract.com: dscheidt owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:01:31 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Kris Kennaway , "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-Reply-To: <19990601235828.Y6251@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > In fact, dd'ing from /dev/random | md5 'looks' less random to my eye; I The human eye is a shockingly bad tool for finding randomness. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 0:59:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A246314C30 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from suzy (modem14.masternet.it [194.184.65.24]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA01306 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:59:19 GMT (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990602094130.017a4090@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:57:06 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: StarOffice 5.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have installed StarOffice 5.1 without problems, but when I go to use, it always launch the setup script. I launch soffice which exec soffice.bin and even if I hacked the script a little (but with the original is the same thing) the .bin continue to call setup :-( I installed it making : cd /tmp tar xvf so51_lnx_39.tar mkdir /usr/local/Office51 mkdir /usr/local/Office51/lib cd /usr/local/Office51/lib tar zxvf /tmp/so51inst/misc/glibc2/glib2.tar.gz mv glibc2/* . rm -r glibc2 setenv LD_LIBRARY_PATH /tmp/sv001.tmp:/usr/local/Office51/lib:/usr/compat/linux/lib/ cd /tmp/so51inst/office51 ./setup Installed in /usr/local/Office51 Any ideas or hints I have miss ? P.s I want to write an email to stardivision complain about the fact that I am using FreeBSD. I don't pretend a native version, but at least a note or an help.txt to install it on my system. I have paid it (the cdrom). Otherwise the next time I, and all my friends who bought it, will only download the free version. P.p.s The support will have to be valid also for non linux platform, or not ? Thanks for attention. Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 1:32:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D15014E26 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA20132; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:33:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA15737; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:39:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990602103944.23571@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:39:44 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X References: <19990601232736.T6251@futuresouth.com> <19990601234004.W6251@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990601234004.W6251@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Tue, Jun 01, 1999 at 11:40:05PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew D. Fuller writes: > > key1=`/usr/bin/vmstat -i | /sbin/md5` Neat! Who wants to put a lava lamp with a webcam in front of it, like the SGI folks did ? -- or we could put a webcam at Jordan's place, just in front of the cat litter, and run _that_ through MD5. BTW, is there a nice intro somewhere on xauth and its use ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 1:51:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from support.euronet.nl (support.euronet.nl [194.134.32.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB6315893 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:51:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pieterw@support.euronet.nl) Received: (from pieterw@localhost) by support.euronet.nl (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA24107; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:51:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from pieterw) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:51:07 +0200 From: Pieter Westland To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StarOffice 5.1 Message-ID: <19990602105106.A23709@support.euronet.nl> References: <4.1.19990602094130.017a4090@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990602094130.017a4090@194.184.65.4>; from Gianmarco Giovannelli on Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 09:57:06AM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD support.euronet.nl 2.2.7-STABLE FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE X-URL: http://support.euronet.nl/~pieterw X-Editor: vim X-Organization: EuroNet * Internet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 09:57:06AM +0200, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > I have installed StarOffice 5.1 without problems, but when I go to use, it > always launch the setup script. > I launch soffice which exec soffice.bin and even if I hacked the script a > little (but with the original is the same thing) the .bin continue to call > setup :-( Hi, You should add a ~/.sversionrc : [Versions] StarOffice 5.1=$HOME/Office51 Or anywhere where the so-binary is located. Please have also a look at www.freebsdrocks.com -> HowTo -> StarOffice Pieter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 1:52:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (zabagek.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E5C15137 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:52:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from tg@localhost) by zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) id KAA02048; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:51:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tg) To: Phil Regnauld Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X References: <19990601232736.T6251@futuresouth.com> <19990601234004.W6251@futuresouth.com> <19990602103944.23571@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 02 Jun 1999 10:51:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: Phil Regnauld's message of "Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:39:44 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.34/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Phil Regnauld writes: > BTW, is there a nice intro somewhere on xauth and its use ? `man xauth'? I've never seen another intro than Matthew's mail and, a couple of years ago, another one with a similar setup. tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 7:38: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.inx.de (www.inx.de [195.21.255.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C89314E17 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from n36-52.berlin.snafu.de ([195.21.36.52] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by www.inx.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10pC9P-0000U6-00; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:37:51 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 28FF9378; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:52:08 +0200 (CEST) To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X References: From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 02 Jun 1999 12:52:08 +0200 In-Reply-To: Kris Kennaway's message of "Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:21:05 +0930 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway writes on freebsd-chat: > dd if=/dev/urandom bs= Someone I knew (Carsten Rossenhoevel) developed a portable alternative once: ( ps -ael ; netstat -s ) | compress | tr "\100-\377" "\007-\077\001-\077\001-\077\001-\077" | tr "\001-\077" "9a-f0-9a-f0-9a-f0-9a-f0-9" | fold -32 | awk '{ l1=l2; l2=l3; l3=l4; l4=$0; } END { print l1 }' Allegedly this runs on a *wide* variety of Unixen; I have used it myself on SunOS (4 and 5), HP-UX, Linux, and FreeBSD without modification. Greetings, Juergen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 10: 8: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C1914BDC for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:05:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id TAA24891 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:05:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id F031887AE; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:51:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:51:08 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Binary Compatibility Message-ID: <19990602075108.A38222@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1D7D0A00F0E8D111A26600104B873E4C017835FA@exchange.quests.com> <199906020108.SAA07001@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <199906020108.SAA07001@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 01:08:36AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5322 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Terry Lambert: > For Linux binaries to function, they must be "branded" as type > "Linux"; form the "brandelf(1)" man page: > > % brandelf -t Linux file > > When this is done, the ELF loader will see the "Linux" brand on > the file. Note that branding a Linux binary is only necessary for _static_ ones because the loader has no information in the binary itself about its type. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #71: Sun May 9 20:16:32 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 14:32:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877FB14BEF for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:32:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:32:40 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Matthew Hunt" , "Andre Oppermann" Cc: Subject: RE: net.inet.tcp.always_keepalive on as default ? Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:32:40 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bead3f$711c0840$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990602140108.A47013@wopr.caltech.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That's how keepalives work. My understanding is that David Schwartz's > comment referred to application idle timeouts, not keepalives. Correct. Only the application can know whether the most logical means of dealing with the TCP connection is by a keepalive, data timeout, or other rule. Applications that have no data timeouts and do not enable keepalives are broken, period. I like the idea of having a ridiculously high keepalive time (like 1 week) even for connections that don't request them, and reverting to normal keepalive times for applications that do. That will help workaround broken applications. DS PS: Moved to chat since this is starting to look more like a holy war. ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 14:48: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD9B14BEF for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA55915; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:23:54 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:23:53 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Message-ID: <19990602192352.A55420@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel O'Connor on Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 01:43:08PM +0930 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 01:43:08PM +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 02-Jun-99 Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > Yes, its pretty crashy :( > > Even on Linux, I hear. The 1.0 release apparently was only meant to signify > > the API freeze, not code stabilization. I gather there was quite a bit of > > release pressure coming from folks like RedHat.. > > Ugh.. damn stupid linux development model at work :( That would be the same sort of development model that led us to release 3.2 in time for Usenix, right, and why our release schedules tend (or are intended to) fit in quite nicely with WCs CD-ROM release requirements? Yeah, thought so. We shouldn't be bitching about the 'competition' when we do the same things ourselves. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 17: 4:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF275153C4 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from guppy.dons.net.au (guppy.dons.net.au [203.31.81.9]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA01871; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:12:23 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990602192352.A55420@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:12:23 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel J. O'Connor" To: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Kris Kennaway Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Jun-99 Nik Clayton wrote: > > Ugh.. damn stupid linux development model at work :( > That would be the same sort of development model that led us to release > 3.2 in time for Usenix, right, and why our release schedules tend (or are > intended to) fit in quite nicely with WCs CD-ROM release requirements? No thats the development model where they have to stabilise everything from one release to another instead of having a stable branch. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 18:13:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailfw1.ford.com (mailfw1.ford.com [136.1.1.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2701014FED for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:13:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from boconno6@ford.com) Received: by mailfw1.ford.com id VAA25029 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org); Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:13:08 -0400 Message-Id: <199906030113.VAA25029@mailfw1.ford.com> Received: by mailfw1.ford.com (Internal Mail Agent-2); Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:13:08 -0400 Organization: Ford Motor Company of Australia Limited. ACN 004 116 223 Received: by mailfw1.ford.com (Internal Mail Agent-1); Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:13:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:12:57 +1000 From: "Brian O'Connor. (CF583173) HO 2nd Floor" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: m$ FUNDS PERL dev Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,0-37338,00.html?st.ne.100.head "On the Windows platform, we don't have nearly the same number of developers as for Unix. A lot of this work wasn't getting done," Hardt said. "People moving [Perl] scripts back and forth have found that to be a big barrier," he said. For example, something that's present in Unix but missing on the Windows version is the "fork" feature, which lets a program make a copy of itself, Hardt said, a very useful ability for programs that use the network. ActiveState will add the fork function into Perl for Windows and release the code to the open source community, he said. " hmmmm boc -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian O'Connor Ford Australia Email: boconno6@ford.com Unix Consultant to Ford Australia Telephone: +61 3 93597848 Ford Of Australia Ford Australia Facsimile: +61 3 93598266 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 18:40:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (nscs28p3.remote.umass.edu [128.119.179.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FF214E5D for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:40:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@oitunix.oit.umass.edu) Received: (from root@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01037 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:40:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from root) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:40:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Charlie Root Message-Id: <199906030140.VAA01037@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Ports directory structure Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Recently there has been some discussion on other lists about a "2-level port" system. This just got me thinking about the hierarchical structure of the ports tree. One wonders, for example, why have a directory called "patches" containing files called "patch-aa", "patch-ab", etc? Seems redundant. ANyway, I thought I'd post some quick results here, hoping they're not too bogus and look forward to being edified, but not too severely flamed, in return. First, I have an up-to-date cvs repository for ports. $ time cvs co ports real 30m44.419s user 0m42.624s sys 2m26.730s $ du -sk ports 71875 The size discrepency that arose in the other postings may just be the result of the CVS directories. $ find ports -name CVS | xargs rm -Rf $ du -sk ports 38731 Then, I wanted to get rid of some of the hierarchical structure, so from the ports directory I did $ mmv "*/*/*/*" =1/=2/=4 It appeared from browsing around that I got the results I wanted. I may have lost some files, since mmv asked me about overwriting existing Makefiles. So here's where I get concerned about bogosity, but I don't think it's too bad. Following that, I just relied on rmdir's refusal to remove empty directories $ find ports -type d | xargs rmdir Now, for example, instead of having this: $ ls ports/mail/mutt Makefile files patches pkg I have this: COMMENT PLIST patch-01 patch-04 patch-08 DESCR PLIST.htmlfiles patch-02 patch-05 patch-doc-ref Makefile md5 patch-03 patch-06 ru.gmo.u And, $ du -sk ports 32773 Then I imported this less structured ports tree and checked it out. $ time cvs co newports real 13m31.740s user 0m35.417s sys 1m16.488s $ du -sk newports 42068 So, just simplifying the structure would seem to give us a smaller, "faster" ports tree. I don't consider any of this particularly earth-shattering. Perhaps there are reasons for the additional directory structure. Perhaps it's just aesthetic. I was just wondering. Thanks, Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 20:28:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.72.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398A714F73; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA35516; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:28:36 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:28:36 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-multimedia@freebsd.org Subject: Linux XFree86 under FreeBSD? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just saw this one go through SlashDot ... anyone ever try to use Linux X-binaries under FreeBSD? http://www.nvidia.com/Products.nsf/htmlmedia/software_drivers.html Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 20:32: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.72.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BAA14F73 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA35531 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:31:53 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:31:52 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Sun Spurs Innovation in Supercomputing Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just in case nobody has seen this yet...not sure how/if we can use this... http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/990602/ca_sun_mic_1.html Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 21: 9:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12AA514DD9 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA03537; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:08:42 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Charlie Root Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ports directory structure In-Reply-To: <199906030140.VAA01037@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Charlie Root wrote: > Recently there has been some discussion on other lists about a > "2-level port" system. This just got me thinking about the [kerchunk] > $ time cvs co newports > real 13m31.740s > user 0m35.417s > sys 1m16.488s Could you check out what the time difference is to tar or untar the whole thing? Charles > Greg > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 21:36:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2136E14DB3 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA89654; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:35:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux XFree86 under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: [crossposting removed] > > Just saw this one go through SlashDot ... anyone ever try to use Linux > X-binaries under FreeBSD? What's a X-binary? > > http://www.nvidia.com/Products.nsf/htmlmedia/software_drivers.html > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-multimedia" in the body of the message > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 21:46:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C1814E7A; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21646; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:14:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 14:14:36 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: The Hermit Hacker Subject: RE: Linux XFree86 under FreeBSD? Cc: freebsd-multimedia@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-Jun-99 The Hermit Hacker wrote: > Just saw this one go through SlashDot ... anyone ever try to use Linux > X-binaries under FreeBSD? > > http://www.nvidia.com/Products.nsf/htmlmedia/software_drivers.html Anyone tried the patches for XFree86 and compiling under FreeBSD? --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 22:33:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C73A1505E for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-71-61.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.71.61]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA00967; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA01330; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:35:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199906030535.BAA01330@bellsouth.net> To: Stephen Fisher Cc: James Kalmadge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Bye-bye Windows In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:57:29 MDT." <3754D5D9.3893A49@twrol.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:35:46 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I don't know what the general feeling around here is, but I have read > > many people's letters outlining why FBSD beats Linux technically, etc. > > And therefore it will eventually > > be the OS of choice, &c, &c, &c . . . . > > > > It might be true. But Linux is winning the PR war (If there is one). > > > > I remember hearing and reading about the obvious advantages of BETAMAX. > > > > What kind of VCR do you own? > > Good point... > VHS.. Not a relevant comparison at all. The issues here are much more complex, have a deeper history and decision making is largely decentralized. The last thing FreeBSD needs (IMHO) is a marketing program aimed at attracting every l33t d00d in the world to FreeBSD. Thankfully, I can't imagine that -core would be doing that and instead are rightly concerned with producing a professional system. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net ( who doesn't own a VCR since VHS sucks :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 2 23:22:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iservern.teligent.se (www.teligent.se [194.17.198.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7982614E7A; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:22:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jakob@teligent.se) Received: from fwse.teligent.se (gateway.teligent.se [192.168.3.254] (may be forged)) by iservern.teligent.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24205; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:13:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jakob@teligent.se) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: From: Jakob Alvermark Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:18:08 +0200 (CEST) To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux XFree86 under FreeBSD? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >=20 > Just saw this one go through SlashDot ... anyone ever try to use Linux > X-binaries under FreeBSD? >=20 > http://www.nvidia.com/Products.nsf/htmlmedia/software_drivers.html I've used the intel i740 X server from Redhat under 3.0-RELEASE a couple of months ago. I worked well, after a couple of small hacks. I used it for a couple of months, til I changed my graphics card. The only thing I didn't get to work was the wheel on my mouse. /Jakob ------------------------------------------------------- Teligent AB, P.O. Box 213, S-149 23 Nyn=E4shamn, Sweden =20 Telephone +46-(0)8 520 660 00 * Fax +46-(0)8 520 193 36=20 Direct +46-(0)8 520 660 32 * GSM +46-(0)70 792 16 57 * * * http://www.teligent.se * * * ------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 1: 3:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from k6n1.znh.org (unknown [207.109.235.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D09F151B1 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:03:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zach@uffdaonline.net) Received: (from zach@localhost) by k6n1.znh.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA03995; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:04:46 GMT (envelope-from zach) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 03:04:46 -0500 From: Zach Heilig To: Juergen Nickelsen Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Message-ID: <19990603030445.A1873@k6n1.znh.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Juergen Nickelsen on Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 12:52:08PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 12:52:08PM +0200, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > Someone I knew (Carsten Rossenhoevel) developed a portable alternative > once: > > ( ps -ael ; netstat -s ) | > compress | > tr "\100-\377" "\007-\077\001-\077\001-\077\001-\077" | > tr "\001-\077" "9a-f0-9a-f0-9a-f0-9a-f0-9" | > fold -32 | > awk '{ l1=l2; l2=l3; l3=l4; l4=$0; } END { print l1 }' > > Allegedly this runs on a *wide* variety of Unixen; I have used it > myself on SunOS (4 and 5), HP-UX, Linux, and FreeBSD without > modification. Are nul's ok? I just ran it a bunch of times, and here are four keys that were spit out (with an added '| cat -v' at the end): c3876a72354f7be7bc4706739929955f 6b54bc60abeb79e5fad3e548607^@76d5 4f6fcb33e86ee3735^@8b40ce705e849f c5a0ed43e86de3a35^@fc1ec2575d87a9 [ incidentally, FreeBSD's syscons will not cut-n-paste real nul's ] -- Zach Heilig ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 04:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tanimura@naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp) Received: from rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp (8.9.1a/3.7W-Naklab-2.1-19981120) with ESMTP id UAA84239; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:13:53 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199906031113.UAA84239@rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp> To: masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Seigo Tanimura Subject: Re: First interview hits the web.. From: Seigo Tanimura In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:52:58 +0900" References: <19990603135258Q.masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.34.1 / Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 20:13:53 +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:52:58 +0900, UEBAYASHI Masao said: masao> More correctly, Nihon Keizai Shinbunsha constructs `keiretsu' or masao> Nikkei group which related with economy and publishing. For example, masao> Nikkei BP, one of its `keiretsu', publishes many magazines about IT Incidentally, how come we have such a confusing name? :-< Seigo TANIMURA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 6:17:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dyson.iquest.net. (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B036515272 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from toor@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA22792; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:17:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199906031317.IAA22792@dyson.iquest.net.> Subject: Re: Bye-bye Windows In-Reply-To: <199906030535.BAA01330@bellsouth.net> from W Gerald Hicks at "Jun 3, 1999 01:35:46 am" To: wghicks@bellsouth.net (W Gerald Hicks) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:17:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: sfisher@twrol.com (Stephen Fisher), kalmadg@banet.net (James Kalmadge), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org W Gerald Hicks said: > > The last thing FreeBSD needs (IMHO) is a marketing program aimed at > attracting every l33t d00d in the world to FreeBSD. Thankfully, I > can't imagine that -core would be doing that and instead are rightly > concerned with producing a professional system. > Be careful that users who have a clue, but have to use the inferior system due to other economic or political agendas. It is probably being elitist to say that each person choosing the obviously inferior choice is doing so out of ignorance or a twisted political agenda. Talking about VCR's, I have *both* EDBeta and VHS decks. Sure, the EDBeta looks better, but guess which one is generally more useful? Another issue is timing -- for the same price as an EDBeta deck (when they were commonly available), you can now buy a digital deck. The issue of VHS vs. Beta is uninteresting today, and the VHS product, has been *THE* success. The technical aspects of EDBeta's good luma SNR (when tweaked), and good luma resolution (which is on the order of laserdisk) can provide a very watchable picture -- but who cares? The new technology, which is soon to be common, will provide essentially BetaCam picture quality (modulo motion artifacts) as far as the consumer can normally see -- and totally blows away even EDBeta. (The major disadvantages of the digital consumer decks vs. the component decks like BetaCam are chroma resolution (makes quality chroma-keying difficult), motion artifacts, and tape area making the signal slightly more vulnerable.) The technical excellence (in a relative sense) of the past technology becomes unimportant, because new things will eventually come along to leapfrog everyone. The new distribution format (DVD) essentially blows away VHS or SVHS or EDBeta in almost every aspect, with only the (minor) issue of motion artifacts (which are probably much better than the consumer digital tape, due to the better bandwidth.) There are some die-hards who believe that laser disk is still better than DVD (and their argument isn't totally unfounded -- but I generally disagree.) Bottom line, is that the supurb technology of the past will eventually be just a footnote, if it wasn't also the commecially sucessful technology. Elitism can take you only so far, and I can agree about the need to keep quality high, but that doesn't have to be inconsistant with being ubiquitious and successful. Making the analogy with FreeBSD "being" Beta, and Linux "being" VHS is all unimportant because the technical advantages of FreeBSD will eventually be overwhelmed by general technical progress in the industry. Other aspects of product success (profit and market share) are more important. As time goes on, the major significant "technical" difference between FreeBSD and Linux will be the licenses. One can consider the license as a part of the feature set, since licenses specify the kind of freedom that one has in the use of a product, much in the same way as the feature set does. Given this, FreeBSD is licensed with a free license, and that can be a major advantage relative to software licensed with the non-free, but source-available terms of GPL. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 6:19:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.72.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DFB15272 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:19:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA41454; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:20:00 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:20:00 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Chuck Robey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux XFree86 under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > [crossposting removed] > > > > > Just saw this one go through SlashDot ... anyone ever try to use Linux > > X-binaries under FreeBSD? > > What's a X-binary? XFree86 Binaries ... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 7:19: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366CC153A3 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA12761; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:19:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA77014; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:19:02 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:19:02 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun Spurs Innovation in Supercomputing Message-ID: <19990603161902.A76949@bitbox.follo.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 12:31:52AM -0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 12:31:52AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > Just in case nobody has seen this yet...not sure how/if we can use this... > > http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/990602/ca_sun_mic_1.html I looked it over; it does not seem particularly useful. The single thing I think would be most useful in bringing FreeBSD up as a high availability cluster platform would be to repeat Simon's (proprietary, due to choices that were not his to make) work on integrating a distributed lock manager in PostgreSQL. I have the lock manager code (which I hope to integrate in FreeBSD when I get time to bug bde about what the problems he was handwaving about actually are), but not the PostgreSQL mods. After that comes integrating Ron Minnich' work on using /proc cross-cluster; after that again replacing the startup system and cron/inetd configuration system (which is really inconvenient if you want to do a full cluster with slightly different functions on the different nodes), and after that integrating MOSIX (re-implementing the parts we can't get the source to). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 8:22:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B587314D1F for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:22:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ifi.uio.no) Received: from ljod.ifi.uio.no (2602@ljod.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.191]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id RAA13841 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:22:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from des@localhost) by ljod.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:22:27 +0200 (MET DST) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Jun 1999 17:22:27 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just noticed this on the rc5stats.distributed.net web site: "Last weekend I was afk to celebrate my one year anniversary with my lovely wife. Lemme tell ya, if you can find a wife who's not afraid to wear a FreeBSD t-shirt in public, you'll do just fine. :)" DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 8:43:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA90515279 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29338; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:43:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA00161; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:43:09 -0500 Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id KAA29134; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:43:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:43:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199906031543.KAA29134@free.pcs> To: des@ifi.uio.no, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >Just noticed this on the rc5stats.distributed.net web site: > > > >"Last weekend I was afk to celebrate my one year anniversary with my >lovely wife. Lemme tell ya, if you can find a wife who's not afraid to >wear a FreeBSD t-shirt in public, you'll do just fine. :)" Hmm. I have the daemon t-shirt, as well as the very nice long-sleeve denim shirt. However, half the time I don't get the wear them, as my wife takes them instead, and she's not even involved in computers!. She recently wore the t-shirt on zoo trip while chaperoning a bunch of kindergardners. (she did say that she got a few strange looks, though) I don't even get to keep my BSD stickers either; there are three pairs of little hands around here that will put the stickers all over the house (and the cat) unless I keep them hidden. Ever seen a cat sporting a "Powered by FreeBSD" logo? -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 8:44: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.glenatl.glenayre.com (mail.glenatl.glenayre.com [157.230.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 52E4915295 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhicks@glenatl.glenayre.com) Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com by mail.glenatl.glenayre.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA12369; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:32:15 -0400 Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA51145; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:35:48 GMT Message-Id: <199906031535.PAA51145@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jhicks@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com Subject: Re: [Q] How stable is FreeBSD 3.X ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 May 1999 21:15:55 MST." Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 15:35:48 +0000 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [to -chat] > Let's see if I got this straight, now. On one hand, you've got a bunch > talented software developers which is by nature an egotistical breed. I challenge that assertion. It's an all too frequently passed about stereotype (and one that is very damaging to our profession). Most software developers I know are harried for time, burdened with unreasonable demands, and never given enough information to adequately perform their function. Even further, the very best developers I can recall in nearly twenty years as a professional were also the most humble people I know. I could make a much better case for the average sales/marketing person or executive being a member of some "egotistical breed" but then I'd be guilty of stereotyping too. -- Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 10:18: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wrath.cs.utah.edu (wrath.cs.utah.edu [155.99.198.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7E415058; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danderse@cs.utah.edu) Received: from torrey.cs.utah.edu (torrey.cs.utah.edu [155.99.212.91]) by wrath.cs.utah.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA26466; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:18:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from danderse@localhost) by torrey.cs.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA61780; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:18:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from danderse@cs.utah.edu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:18:06 -0600 (MDT) From: "David G. Andersen" To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux XFree86 under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: The Hermit Hacker's message of Thu, June 3 1999 References: X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14166.47252.461686.979175@torrey.cs.utah.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We were running the SuSE X server here for a while before support for our cards was integrated into XFree86. We had to tweak the linux keyboard mapping in the linux emulation code, but that was about it. (Haven't tried the nvidia stuff yet, though). -dave Lo and Behold, The Hermit Hacker said: > > Just saw this one go through SlashDot ... anyone ever try to use Linux > X-binaries under FreeBSD? > > http://www.nvidia.com/Products.nsf/htmlmedia/software_drivers.html -- work: danderse@cs.utah.edu me: angio@pobox.com University of Utah http://www.angio.net/ Computer Science - Flux Research Group "What's footnote FIVE?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 10:27:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E015A1558B for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:27:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA59301; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:27:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:27:15 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: des@ifi.uio.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? Message-ID: <19990603102714.E58665@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <199906031543.KAA29134@free.pcs> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199906031543.KAA29134@free.pcs>; from Jonathan Lemon on Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 10:43:08AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 10:43:08AM -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > house (and the cat) unless I keep them hidden. Ever seen a cat sporting > a "Powered by FreeBSD" logo? I thought it was just NetBSD that ran on cats. I suppose we have Jordan to thank for supporting the feline platform. So, what will be the first Unix to run on that new Sony robotic dog? I'd bet that the first application to be ported will be biff(1). Matt, now more eager to get a cat. -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 12:27: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from unix1.digital-web.net (unix1.digital-web.net [216.65.27.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9997214CEE for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Received: from localhost (jmscott@localhost) by unix1.digital-web.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23133 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:22:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: jmscott@unix1.digital-web.net Reply-To: Joseph Scott To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Slashdot testing out FreeBSD box Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just came across an item on Slashdot about some of the recent changes to Slashdot, one if which is a new box running FreeBSD. See : http://slashdot.org/articles/99/06/03/1858230.shtml I know many people here (myself included) have very mixed feelings about Slashdot, what it is and isn't good for :-) Regardless, I think that if the folks at Slashdot have a good expierence with FreeBSD that will do good in promoting FreeBSD, especially among the Linux crowd. Joseph Scott joseph@randomnetworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 12:34: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peewee.cdrom.com (mg130-099.ricochet.net [204.179.130.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9D614FB2 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:33:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@peewee.cdrom.com) Received: from peewee (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peewee.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10605; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:57:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@peewee.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: SBenjamin@quest.com (Scott Benjamin), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Binary Compatibility In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jun 1999 01:08:36 -0000." <199906020108.SAA07001@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 23:57:35 -0700 Message-ID: <10601.928393055@peewee> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FreeBSD has an abstraction called an "execution class loader". This > is a wedge into the execve(2) system call. This is a really excellent synopsis, Terry - you have a talent for explaining things. When can I sign you up to write a book related to FreeBSD? :-) Seriously, I think this needs to be SGML-ified and turned into a Handbook section on "emulation". I also don't much like the negative implication of "emulation" and now refer to it as "Linux binary compatability" rather than using the dreaded e-word. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 12:38:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7822D15964 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip137.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.137]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614B037086; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA41557; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:38:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:38:14 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Joseph Scott Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slashdot testing out FreeBSD box Message-ID: <19990603143814.H40089@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Joseph Scott on Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 03:22:38PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 3, 1999, Joseph Scott wrote: > I know many people here (myself included) have very mixed feelings > about Slashdot, what it is and isn't good for :-) Regardless, I think > that if the folks at Slashdot have a good expierence with FreeBSD that > will do good in promoting FreeBSD, especially among the Linux crowd. I was awaiting this. I talked to somebody who happens to host Slashdot's servers and he said they're putting FreeBSD on at least one of the two new servers. I haven't seen him in ages, but I'm definitely glad he's doing it, and I'm surprised they accepted it. -- Chris Costello Computers talk to each other worse than their designers do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 12:42:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from exchange.quest.com (unknown [192.77.210.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9056015964 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:42:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from SBenjamin@quest.com) Received: by exchange.quests.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:42:08 -0700 Message-ID: <1D7D0A00F0E8D111A26600104B873E4C01783761@exchange.quests.com> From: Scott Benjamin To: Jordan Hubbard , Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Binary Compatibility Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:42:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think that Terry did an excellent job as well. I too agree Jordan, that it needs to me SGML-ified and that it should be refered to as Binary Compatibility.. Much better than emulation, when ever I hear emulation, the first thing that pops into my mind is "It probably won't work" =) Scott -----Original Message----- From: Jordan Hubbard [mailto:jkh@zippy.cdrom.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 11:58 PM To: Terry Lambert Cc: SBenjamin@quest.com; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Binary Compatibility > FreeBSD has an abstraction called an "execution class loader". This > is a wedge into the execve(2) system call. This is a really excellent synopsis, Terry - you have a talent for explaining things. When can I sign you up to write a book related to FreeBSD? :-) Seriously, I think this needs to be SGML-ified and turned into a Handbook section on "emulation". I also don't much like the negative implication of "emulation" and now refer to it as "Linux binary compatability" rather than using the dreaded e-word. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 12:54:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co [168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D05159A4 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:53:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem16.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.46]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02049 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:57:22 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3756DD36.74E5E2B4@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 14:53:26 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: The GPL vs. Capitalism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For those of you that asked about it, here is the article I wrote: http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/gpl-evil.html I already received some (well two ;-) comments about it, I hope the pro-linux spam machine won't kill my mailbox :-). Both persons have asked about the Rifkin book I mention. The Spanish translation I had would be equivalent to "The End of Work". It's an excellent book on unemployment that I had to read for my Master in Administration. FWIW, The unemployment rate in Colombia is now near the 20% ! enjoy, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 12:59:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.phone.net (guru.phone.net [209.157.82.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2084B1599E for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:59:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@phone.net) Received: (qmail 45249 invoked by uid 100); 3 Jun 1999 19:59:48 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 19:59:48 -0000 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:59:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Meyer To: Jerry Hicks Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jhicks@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com Subject: Re: [Q] How stable is FreeBSD 3.X ? In-Reply-To: <199906031535.PAA51145@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Jerry Hicks wrote: > [to -chat] Which I don't subscribe to. > > Let's see if I got this straight, now. On one hand, you've got a bunch > > talented software developers which is by nature an egotistical breed. > > I challenge that assertion. It's an all too frequently passed about > stereotype (and one that is very damaging to our profession). If you're going to challange the assertion, you should present information that contradicts it, instead of information that is either immaterial or supports it. I'd also be interested in arguments supporting that this believe is "very damaging" *to the profession*. In a professional capacity, if someone expects me to be egotistical and I am - then I'm not hurt. If they expect that and I'm not, then they are pleasantly surprised, and I might well come out ahead. If that prejudice extends to a social situation, then that's certainly harming the individuals so judged. But does this harm the profession? > I could make a much better case for the average sales/marketing person > or executive being a member of some "egotistical breed" but then I'd be > guilty of stereotyping too. I can't tell whether or not you would be stereotyping, because I don't know whether you're developing a mental stereotype or not. I certainly wasn't, because I know the difference between statements about average properties of a group and a stereotype. And, for those who missed the original, the context for that quote is a message in support of the FreeBSD team. ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail2.siemens.de (mail2.siemens.de [139.25.208.14]) by david.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04383 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:00:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail2.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03186 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:00:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA32128 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:00:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:00:09 +0200 From: Andre Albsmeier To: Joseph Scott Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slashdot testing out FreeBSD box Message-ID: <19990603220009.A12097@internal> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Joseph Scott on Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 03:22:38PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 03-Jun-1999 at 15:22:38 -0400, Joseph Scott wrote: > > I just came across an item on Slashdot about some of the recent > changes to Slashdot, one if which is a new box running FreeBSD. See : > > http://slashdot.org/articles/99/06/03/1858230.shtml Grmpf, maybe you call my stupid but why can't I read any of the slashdot stuff? Netscape loads something, gives me a box saying "Alert! did not find a converter or decoder" and shows me a black page. -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 14:23:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812531552F; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16009; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:30:20 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:30:20 -0700 (PDT) From: To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux XFree86 under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yep, but it failed -- I was trying to get the i740 X server (released for RedHat in binary-only form) running under FreeBSD 2.2.8, but I never did succeed... --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > Just saw this one go through SlashDot ... anyone ever try to use Linux > X-binaries under FreeBSD? > > http://www.nvidia.com/Products.nsf/htmlmedia/software_drivers.html > > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 14:56: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280B9158C6 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:56:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from [212.126.149.111] (helo=cream.org) by scrabble.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 10pfSl-0004H3-00; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:55:47 +0000 Content-Length: 455 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:53:03 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Boothman To: John Baldwin Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X Cc: Jordan Hubbard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Jun-99 John Baldwin wrote: > If you want a nice looking login screen for X, check out kdm.. a xdm > replacement that comes as part of KDE. I've been meaning to check out KDE for some time....... But anyway, from what I understand, KDE isn't everyone's cup of tea and I think that xdm is ubiquitous and can be used with EVERY window manager, hence making it easier to standardise on. --- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 14:59:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90606158C6 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:59:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05604; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:57:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:57:10 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Joseph Scott Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slashdot testing out FreeBSD box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Joseph Scott wrote: > I just came across an item on Slashdot about some of the recent > changes to Slashdot, one if which is a new box running FreeBSD. See : > > http://slashdot.org/articles/99/06/03/1858230.shtml (summary - the FreeBSD box is serving images and ads) If you read the responses, which is always a dangerous endeavor :-), you'll see people saying that images and ads are appearing much faster now too. They mentioned other tweaks, but I'm glad to see they're not having obvious troubles w/ the box which some would blame on FreeBSD (even if they weren't caused by it). Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 16:48:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E125A14C27 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id JAA11438; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:18:20 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA09192; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:19:23 +0930 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:19:22 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Andrew Boothman Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Andrew Boothman wrote: > But anyway, from what I understand, KDE isn't everyone's cup of tea > and I think that xdm is ubiquitous and can be used with EVERY window > manager, hence making it easier to standardise on. AFAIK, kdm is a drop-in standalone replacement for xdm - it requires some of the kde libraries (unless you statically linked it, I guess), but it happily fires up whatever is in your .xsession. Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 17: 5:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from crap.31337.net (node1484.a2000.nl [62.108.20.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B7514E2E; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:05:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexlh@crap.31337.net) Received: (from alexlh@localhost) by crap.31337.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id CAA61998; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 02:06:42 GMT (envelope-from alexlh) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 02:06:41 +0000 From: Alex Le Heux To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Asus TNT2 Message-ID: <19990604020641.A61763@funk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just got an Asus TNT2 card for my birthday. *happiness* After replacing the Diamond Viper 550 that was in my box, I found that the current SVGA server for XFree*^ 3.3.3.1 doesn't support it. Fortunately the Linux driver that's up for download from http://www.nvidia.com seems to work, at least, it has for the past 5 minutes ;-) When it starts it complains about not being able to find /dev/tty0 and /dev/tty4, but linking /dev/ttyv0 and /dev/ttyv3 (ttyv3 being where I have my X) to tty0 and tty4 fixed this. On top of that I didn't have to change my modeline either :-) (un)fortunately I'll be leaving for Usenix tomorrow morning, so I won't have time to see if the OpenGL stuff works. Alex Le Heux PS. I can now play Quake2 (on windows) in some insane resolutions (1600x1200) -- +--------------------------------+-------------------+ | SMTP: | E-Gold: 101979 | | ICBM: N52 22.647' E4 51.555' | PGP: 0x1d512a3f | +--------------------------------+-------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 17: 6:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E7D14E2E for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA86717; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:42:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:42:44 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Matthew Hunt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? Message-ID: <19990603164244.F41599@001101.zer0.org> References: <199906031543.KAA29134@free.pcs> <19990603102714.E58665@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990603102714.E58665@wopr.caltech.edu>; from Matthew Hunt on Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 10:27:15AM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 10:27:15AM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > > So, what will be the first Unix to run on that new Sony robotic > dog? I'd bet that the first application to be ported will be biff(1). mutt? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Madness takes its toll. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com Please have exact change. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 18:36:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.72.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686C114E2E; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 18:36:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA51941; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:36:39 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:36:39 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun Spurs Innovation in Supercomputing In-Reply-To: <19990603161902.A76949@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 12:31:52AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > Just in case nobody has seen this yet...not sure how/if we can use this... > > > > http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/990602/ca_sun_mic_1.html > > I looked it over; it does not seem particularly useful. > > The single thing I think would be most useful in bringing FreeBSD up > as a high availability cluster platform would be to repeat Simon's > (proprietary, due to choices that were not his to make) work on > integrating a distributed lock manager in PostgreSQL. I have the lock > manager code (which I hope to integrate in FreeBSD when I get time to > bug bde about what the problems he was handwaving about actually are), > but not the PostgreSQL mods. I'm curious here...what mods to PostgreSQL? Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 20:12:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C90115A43 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:12:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24578; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:12:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca To: Pat Lynch Cc: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: Re: Usenix conf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > > hrrrm, well unfortunately Tuesday still sounds like the best day, > even though Greg will be majorly Jetlagged (*sigh*) , so Greg, > willing to try dinner on Tuesday? We'll feed you loads of > coffee/tea/coke and sugar to keep you awake? -Pat I haven't looked at the conference schedule yet (even though I'm leaving on Saturday), but Tuesday evening is good for me. I'll be staying at the Embassy Suites Monterey (which is in Seaside, according to my itinerary?). -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 20:46:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF0D14EB3 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA21950; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 05:46:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA80904; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 05:46:34 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 05:46:34 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun Spurs Innovation in Supercomputing Message-ID: <19990604054634.K77195@bitbox.follo.net> References: <19990603161902.A76949@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 10:36:39PM -0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 10:36:39PM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > The single thing I think would be most useful in bringing FreeBSD up > > as a high availability cluster platform would be to repeat Simon's > > (proprietary, due to choices that were not his to make) work on > > integrating a distributed lock manager in PostgreSQL. I have the lock > > manager code (which I hope to integrate in FreeBSD when I get time to > > bug bde about what the problems he was handwaving about actually are), > > but not the PostgreSQL mods. > > I'm curious here...what mods to PostgreSQL? Replacing the lock calls with calls to an API for a distributed lock manager. This allowed the use of PostgreSQL in high-availability clusters, with two machines sharing the same physical "disk" (actually, RAID array). The capability to do this is extremely useful if you are going to build clusters - I know several places where using that configuration would allow me to easily do failover for systems I run, at least, and I do not think I'm atypical. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 21:40:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.72.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E2614FE8; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA55405; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 01:40:37 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 01:40:36 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun Spurs Innovation in Supercomputing In-Reply-To: <19990604054634.K77195@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > Replacing the lock calls with calls to an API for a distributed lock > manager. This allowed the use of PostgreSQL in high-availability > clusters, with two machines sharing the same physical "disk" > (actually, RAID array). Not quick sure how this applies (if it even does), but v6.5 of PostgreSQL has had major changes done to it on its 'concurrency' code, to improve locking...but I'm suspecting that its not 'client' locking you are talking about here? Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 21:45:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8DAB14CDF for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:45:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA22850; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 06:45:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id GAA81612; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 06:45:55 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 06:45:55 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun Spurs Innovation in Supercomputing Message-ID: <19990604064554.B80950@bitbox.follo.net> References: <19990604054634.K77195@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:40:36AM -0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:40:36AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > Replacing the lock calls with calls to an API for a distributed lock > > manager. This allowed the use of PostgreSQL in high-availability > > clusters, with two machines sharing the same physical "disk" > > (actually, RAID array). > > Not quick sure how this applies (if it even does), but v6.5 of PostgreSQL > has had major changes done to it on its 'concurrency' code, to improve > locking...but I'm suspecting that its not 'client' locking you are talking > about here? No, it is not. I'm talking about using the same physical postgresql database with two concurrent postgresql processes running against it (the two different processes are on different machines, but the database is on shared physical media). Am I being clear now? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 22:33:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9641B15156 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:33:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-58.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.58] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id AAA00055; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:32:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <375764B5.68FE663E@airnet.net> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 00:31:33 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Hunt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? References: <199906031543.KAA29134@free.pcs> <19990603102714.E58665@wopr.caltech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So, what will be the first Unix to run on that new Sony robotic > dog? I'd bet that the first application to be ported will be biff(1). > > Matt, now more eager to get a cat. Just what everyone needs. A computer that ignores them. -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 22:54:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4994A15417 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:54:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA23542; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 07:54:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA81886; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 07:54:31 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 07:54:30 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Taylor Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slashdot testing out FreeBSD box Message-ID: <19990604075430.C80950@bitbox.follo.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Brett Taylor on Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 03:57:10PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 03:57:10PM -0600, Brett Taylor wrote: > If you read the responses, which is always a dangerous endeavor :-), > you'll see people saying that images and ads are appearing much faster now > too. They mentioned other tweaks, but I'm glad to see they're not having > obvious troubles w/ the box which some would blame on FreeBSD (even if > they weren't caused by it). Well, the ads are now served by doubleclick instead of adfu, so I don't think we can really take the credit for that... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 3 23:47:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (zabagek.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AFB41543C for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:47:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from tg@localhost) by zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) id IAA02678; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:48:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tg) To: Andrew Boothman Cc: John Baldwin , Jordan Hubbard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 04 Jun 1999 08:48:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: Andrew Boothman's message of "Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:53:03 +0100 (BST)" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.34/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Boothman writes: > But anyway, from what I understand, KDE isn't everyone's cup of tea > and I think that xdm is ubiquitous and can be used with EVERY window > manager, hence making it easier to standardise on. If anything, it should be wdm with the daemon background. tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 4:43:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5DA14C1E for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:43:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id VAA21862; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:39:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (4.1) id xma021860; Fri, 4 Jun 99 21:39:39 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04148 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:39:39 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03775 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:39:38 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11862; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:39:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199906041139.VAA11862@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: userfriendly is sharp, our government is not Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 21:39:37 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Before I even knew what was going on, UserFriendly was on the ball: http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99may/19990530.html In case you (the rest of the world) want to have a laugh at the new internet underclass (us), check out http://www.efa.org.au and read about the Australian Net Censorship Legislation. You might think that some Australian coders are sharp. But we more than make up for that with our politicians! :-( Stephen. China, Singapore, Australia - Will you be next? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 5: 2:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF4314DD1 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 05:02:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D0EDA418F; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A61339B06; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:02:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: userfriendly is sharp, our government is not In-Reply-To: <199906041139.VAA11862@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: :Before I even knew what was going on, UserFriendly was on the ball: : :http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99may/19990530.html : :In case you (the rest of the world) want to have a laugh at the :new internet underclass (us), check out http://www.efa.org.au and :read about the Australian Net Censorship Legislation. : :You might think that some Australian coders are sharp. But we more :than make up for that with our politicians! :-( What's that all about anyway? Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 5:13:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E3B14E83 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 05:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id WAA22376; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:11:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (4.1) id xma022361; Fri, 4 Jun 99 22:11:19 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05671; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:11:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04928; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:11:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12867; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:11:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199906041211.WAA12867@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: userfriendly is sharp, our government is not References: In-Reply-To: from Jamie Bowden at "Fri, 04 Jun 1999 08:02:12 -0400" Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 22:11:16 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 4th June 1999, Jamie Bowden wrote: >On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: >:In case you (the rest of the world) want to have a laugh at the >:new internet underclass (us), check out http://www.efa.org.au and >:read about the Australian Net Censorship Legislation. >What's that all about anyway? I can't really put it better than the EFA. Have a look at their site. There are a number of quite coherent anti-censorship submissions. The 10 second summary is that the OZ Govt is well advanced in plans to heavily censor Australian web sites, and Australian web access in general. All in the name of the children, of course. It's all so daft it has to be a joke... except it isn't. Stephen. China, Singapore, Australia - Will you be next? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 6:15:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C36C14CA9 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 06:15:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id CC5F43525; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:15:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Jonathan Lemon , des@ifi.uio.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <19990603102714.E58665@wopr.caltech.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to BeDope (http://www.bedope.com/stories/0003.html), the Sony dog is running BeOS. The article does state that they tried Windows, but no version of Unix is mentioned... Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Matthew Hunt wrote: > Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:27:15 -0700 > From: Matthew Hunt > To: Jonathan Lemon > Cc: des@ifi.uio.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? > > On Thu, Jun 03, 1999 at 10:43:08AM -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > > house (and the cat) unless I keep them hidden. Ever seen a cat sporting > > a "Powered by FreeBSD" logo? > > I thought it was just NetBSD that ran on cats. I suppose we have > Jordan to thank for supporting the feline platform. > > So, what will be the first Unix to run on that new Sony robotic > dog? I'd bet that the first application to be ported will be biff(1). > > Matt, now more eager to get a cat. > > -- > Matthew Hunt * Science rules. > http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 6:18:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF6514D4F for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 06:18:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FEDF340D for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:18:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My wife and I have all of the daemon shirts that are currently available: FreeBSD classic, new FreeBSD, and Kirk McKusick's 'running' beastie. We're still waiting for the Chuck plushies! Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On 3 Jun 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Date: 03 Jun 1999 17:22:27 +0200 > From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav > To: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? > > Just noticed this on the rc5stats.distributed.net web site: > > > > "Last weekend I was afk to celebrate my one year anniversary with my > lovely wife. Lemme tell ya, if you can find a wife who's not afraid to > wear a FreeBSD t-shirt in public, you'll do just fine. :)" > > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ifi.uio.no > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 7: 9:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhub.scl.ameslab.gov (mailhub.scl.ameslab.gov [147.155.137.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D0A14D1A for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 07:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ghelmer@scl.ameslab.gov) Received: from demios.ether.scl.ameslab.gov ([147.155.137.54]) by mailhub.scl.ameslab.gov with esmtp (Exim 1.90 #1) id 10pufv-0005oJ-00; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:10:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:09:30 -0500 From: Guy Helmer To: Pat Lynch Cc: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: Re: Usenix conf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > > hrrrm, well unfortunately Tuesday still sounds like the best day, > even though Greg will be majorly Jetlagged (*sigh*) , so Greg, > willing to try dinner on Tuesday? We'll feed you loads of > coffee/tea/coke and sugar to keep you awake? -Pat Tuesday should be good for me as well, although I will be around all week (Saturday night 6/5 to Saturday morning 6/12). I will be at Travelodge Monterey/Carmel if anyone wants to gather any other time to meet & chat. Guy Guy Helmer, Ph.D. Candidate, Iowa State University Dept. of Computer Science Research Assistant, Ames Laboratory --- ghelmer@scl.ameslab.gov Research Assistant, Dept. of Computer Science --- ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 7:29:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from icicle.winternet.com (icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D364514CA1 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 07:29:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com) Received: from tundra.winternet.com (nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11]) by icicle.winternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15878; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:29:07 -0500 (CDT) SMTP "HELO" (ESMTP) greeting from tundra.winternet.com But _really_ from :: nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11] SMTP "MAIL From" = nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com (Nathan Ahlstrom) SMTP "RCPT To" = Received: (from nrahlstr@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id JAA06617; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:28:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990604092829.D4948@winternet.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:28:29 -0500 From: Nathan Ahlstrom To: Pat Lynch Cc: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: Re: Usenix conf Mail-Followup-To: Pat Lynch , FREEBSD-CHAT References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Guy Helmer on Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:09:30AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Guy Helmer wrote: > On Sat, 29 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > > > > hrrrm, well unfortunately Tuesday still sounds like the best day, > > even though Greg will be majorly Jetlagged (*sigh*) , so Greg, > > willing to try dinner on Tuesday? We'll feed you loads of > > coffee/tea/coke and sugar to keep you awake? -Pat > > Tuesday should be good for me as well, although I will be around all week > (Saturday night 6/5 to Saturday morning 6/12). I will be at Travelodge > Monterey/Carmel if anyone wants to gather any other time to meet & chat. So we know that tuesday is the day, but do we know the specific time and place? What about a meeting place? Is there a FreeBSD BOF on tuesday night and we can go to eat from there? Thanks, Nathan -- Nathan Ahlstrom FreeBSD: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ nrahlstr@winternet.com PGP Key ID: 0x67BC9D19 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 9:59: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F81153FE for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA07671; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:58:55 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:58:55 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Matt Behrens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , sthaug@nethelp.no, marquis@roble.com Subject: Re: SSH2 (in FreeBSD-Questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > : What does a typical path variable look like on your systems??? Long > : paths are bad for shells. Yea, I know, the hashing stuff should keep > : a single copy of a shell pretty quick, but every time you fork off > : another one your going to have to go hash the path list. > > Well, why not do what I do -- I have /opt/packagename/bin, > /opt/packagename/sbin, etc. and I simply do this after installing > a package: > > cd /opt/bin;ln -s ../*/bin/* . > > Then we can just add /opt/bin to our paths. We still keep things > nice and separate, and if we want to clean up dead symlinks, we > just do rm /usr/bin/* then rerun the symlink generator. > You conviniently overlooked the matter of shared libraries. And other shared files. And manual pages. And... Of course you could have dummy directories full of links for these all. But that is getting to *WAY* too many symlinks. > : I would actually rather have sshd in /usr/local/libexec, it's not something > : you really run from the command line :-) > > I heartily agree with this, except I put mine in /opt/sshd/libexec > with symlinks to /opt/libexec :-) > > In case anyone wonders why I use /opt, well, I feel /usr/local > should stay the property of the actual local software that I develop. > > Matt Behrens > Owner/Administrator, zigg.com > Chief Engineer, Nameless IRC Network > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 10:25:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from megaweapon.zigg.com (megaweapon.zigg.com [206.114.60.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1266114C3D for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@zigg.com) Received: from localhost (matt@localhost) by megaweapon.zigg.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA22366; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:25:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from matt@zigg.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:25:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Matt Behrens To: Narvi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Rodney W. Grimes" , sthaug@nethelp.no, marquis@roble.com Subject: Re: SSH2 (in FreeBSD-Questions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Narvi wrote: : > Well, why not do what I do -- I have /opt/packagename/bin, : > /opt/packagename/sbin, etc. and I simply do this after installing : > a package: : > cd /opt/bin;ln -s ../*/bin/* . : > Then we can just add /opt/bin to our paths. We still keep things : > nice and separate, and if we want to clean up dead symlinks, we : > just do rm /usr/bin/* then rerun the symlink generator. Oops, I meant /opt/bin/*; /usr/bin/* isn't such a bright idea :-) : You conviniently overlooked the matter of shared libraries. And other : shared files. And manual pages. And... : : Of course you could have dummy directories full of links for these all. : But that is getting to *WAY* too many symlinks. "Conveniently"? I'll ignore that little shot and take the rest of what you say at face value. I'm not trying to start a flame war here. First of all, shared library directories are already full of mostly symlinks; especially the non-system ones such as /usr/local/lib. Besides, it's not as if the system needs to look up the library every time it makes a function call. Or with every time you hit the space bar to see the next screenful in the manpage you're looking at. I've been using the same symlink scheme with /opt/lib and /opt/man/man? for some time and it hasn't hurt one bit, except maybe with a few extra directory entries here and there. Admittedly, I've only had time to patch ten or so packages to work with this scheme, since regrettably a lot of stuff comes out of the box with an inflexible scheme. (pine absolutely made me cringe.) But I'm toying with reworking a few of them, since I've saved patchfiles, to work with a more flexible scheme where the preferred layout can be specified before compiling in a way similar to configure options but more flexibly and perhaps with an option to read an /etc/path.conf file or something similar. Mind you, I'm not forcing anyone to accept my particular scheme. I just think it would be nice if packages came out of the tarball supporting this sort of thing a little more readily. And some people may find these ideas, and the knowledge that they can work, useful. Matt Behrens Owner/Administrator, zigg.com Chief Engineer, Nameless IRC Network To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 13:26:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6459C15BA2 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:26:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem14.masternet.it [194.184.65.24]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA01940 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:26:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990604221521.01843030@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 22:23:58 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: distributed.net stats In-Reply-To: <19990520172047.A18584@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <373DBD37.D2BE2971@seattleu.edu> <373DBD37.D2BE2971@seattleu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20/05/99, you wrote: >Eric Hodel wrote: > >> Japan FreeBSD Users Group is ahead of Japan Linux Users Group in the >> team stats, and we're running 202 fewer machines. This may not mean >> anything at all, but it is kind of neat. >> >> JFUG? - approx 1119 KKeys/sec/machine >> >> JLUG? - approx 650 KKeys/sec/machine >> >> http://rc5stats.distributed.net/rc5-64/tmsummary.php3?team=1277 > >Is this the team FreeBSD users should join, rather than "Team FreeBSD" >around number 20? If so, I may as well move, the Japan team has more >chance of staying at number one. > >(but my machine can only manage about 220kkeys/sec.) I am in the "Team FreeBSD". What about, if possible, to join the two teams ? gmarco : 1,001 blocks were completed yesterday (0.00000146% of the keyspace) at a sustained rate of 3,110 KKeys/sec! Ranked 4,810 for the day. Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 14:15:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BBE14E73 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 14:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:4874 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:14:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:14:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: distributed.net *heart* FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <375764B5.68FE663E@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > > So, what will be the first Unix to run on that new Sony robotic > > dog? I'd bet that the first application to be ported will be biff(1). > > > > Matt, now more eager to get a cat. > > Just what everyone needs. A computer that ignores them. My cat doesn't seem to ignore me, you know.. It's just a matter of approach. :) Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 15:48:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.inx.de (www.inx.de [195.21.255.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EDF914E34 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:48:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from n241-106.berlin.snafu.de ([195.21.241.106] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by www.inx.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10q2l8-0006ir-00; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 00:48:18 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 9DC99345; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:40:49 +0200 (CEST) To: Zach Heilig Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD & X References: <19990603030445.A1873@k6n1.znh.org> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 04 Jun 1999 21:40:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: Zach Heilig's message of "Thu, 3 Jun 1999 03:04:46 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Zach Heilig writes on freebsd-chat: [portable xauth key generator] > Are nul's ok? I just ran it a bunch of times, and here are four keys that > were spit out (with an added '| cat -v' at the end): > > c3876a72354f7be7bc4706739929955f > 6b54bc60abeb79e5fad3e548607^@76d5 > 4f6fcb33e86ee3735^@8b40ce705e849f > c5a0ed43e86de3a35^@fc1ec2575d87a9 I guess they're not ok. Sometimes, but rarely, I get a key that xuaht refuses. I have never investigated this, but rather lazily call it again in such a case. -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 16:54:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A55214E47 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21720 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:54:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.56.19990604175150.046645c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.56 (Beta) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 17:54:15 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: BSD UNIX left out of IA-64 information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Intel's site on porting code to the IA-64 (http://developer.intel.com/design/ia64/devinfo.htm) gives information on Linux, NT, SCO, HP-UX, and Solaris -- but there's not a peep about any BSD UNIX. I hope that this doesn't mean that FreeBSD plans to self-destruct by failing to port to the next generation of Intel CPUs! Why were the BSDs so conspicuously omitted? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 19:19:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ADBC154F4 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25030; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:18:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD UNIX left out of IA-64 information In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.56.19990604175150.046645c0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Intel's site on porting code to the IA-64 > (http://developer.intel.com/design/ia64/devinfo.htm) gives information > on Linux, NT, SCO, HP-UX, and Solaris -- but there's not a peep about > any BSD UNIX. I hope that this doesn't mean that FreeBSD plans to > self-destruct by failing to port to the next generation of Intel CPUs! > Why were the BSDs so conspicuously omitted? Its a secret plot. Shhsh! Don't tell anyone. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 19:28:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D056C14F29 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:28:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 54536 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Jun 1999 02:28:28 -0000 Date: 4 Jun 1999 19:28:28 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:28:28 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD UNIX left out of IA-64 information Message-ID: <19990604192827.A54505@dub.net> References: <4.2.0.56.19990604175150.046645c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew N. Dodd on Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:18:55PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:18:55PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > Intel's site on porting code to the IA-64 > > (http://developer.intel.com/design/ia64/devinfo.htm) gives information > > on Linux, NT, SCO, HP-UX, and Solaris -- but there's not a peep about > > any BSD UNIX. I hope that this doesn't mean that FreeBSD plans to > > self-destruct by failing to port to the next generation of Intel CPUs! > > Why were the BSDs so conspicuously omitted? > > Its a secret plot. Shhsh! Don't tell anyone. > Weeelll... Mike Smith was just standing over my shoulder reading this rather funny email written by Brett and had this to say: "I delegated that duty to Brett Glass at Comdex. This post is most likely a cover-up for his inablity to negotiate a deal with the Intel folks. Tell him he's fired." Woo! :) -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 20:11:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8DE14C7F for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 20:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25782; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:10:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Bill Swingle Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD UNIX left out of IA-64 information In-Reply-To: <19990604192827.A54505@dub.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 4 Jun 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > Mike Smith was just standing over my shoulder reading this rather funny > email written by Brett and had this to say: > > "I delegated that duty to Brett Glass at Comdex. This post is most > likely a cover-up for his inablity to negotiate a deal with the Intel > folks. Tell him he's fired." I don't see much of a point investing the effort to port to a CPU that is still vapor and is likely to be a failure. At the very least the initial examples are likely to be priced out of the PC market. I don't think it will be a big deal if more than a year passes before FreeBSD has an IA-64 release. Intel isn't going to stop selling PPRO derivatives any time soon and the rest of the world isn't going to stop buying AMD products. Intel could very easily find itself with no way to recoup the investment they have made. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 20:17: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from team7.cba (team7.cba.ualr.edu [144.167.120.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5104514F29 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 20:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@team7.cba.ualr.edu) Received: from access85.mod1.ualr.edu (IDENT:joe@access85.mod1.ualr.edu [144.167.7.85]) by team7.cba (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13886; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:16:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from joe@team7.cba.ualr.edu) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:17:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe X-Sender: joe@njal.ualr.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD UNIX left out of IA-64 information In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.56.19990604175150.046645c0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Intel's site on porting code to the IA-64 > (http://developer.intel.com/design/ia64/devinfo.htm) gives information on > Linux, NT, SCO, HP-UX, and Solaris -- but there's not a peep about any BSD > UNIX. I hope that this doesn't mean that FreeBSD plans to self-destruct by > failing to port to the next generation of Intel CPUs! Why were the BSDs so > conspicuously omitted? > > --Brett Glass > I seriously doubt that will happen. -Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 20:51:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs6-10.arl.netwalk.net [216.69.201.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F99214D99 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 20:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA04116; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:50:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:54:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: distributed.net stats In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990604221521.01843030@194.184.65.4> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :At 20/05/99, you wrote: :>Eric Hodel wrote: :> :>> Japan FreeBSD Users Group is ahead of Japan Linux Users Group in the :>> team stats, and we're running 202 fewer machines. This may not mean :>> anything at all, but it is kind of neat. :>> :>> JFUG? - approx 1119 KKeys/sec/machine :>> :>> JLUG? - approx 650 KKeys/sec/machine :>> :>> http://rc5stats.distributed.net/rc5-64/tmsummary.php3?team=1277 :> :>Is this the team FreeBSD users should join, rather than "Team FreeBSD" :>around number 20? If so, I may as well move, the Japan team has more :>chance of staying at number one. :> :>(but my machine can only manage about 220kkeys/sec.) : : :I am in the "Team FreeBSD". What about, if possible, to join the two teams ? : I've thought about that before. It would be nice to have a single, unified FreeBSD team. As for the prize money, that could still go to the original team (Japan FreeBSD Users Group or Team FreeBSD), it wouldn't be difficult to figure that part out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 21:44:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.72.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF6914DDF; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:44:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA78676; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:44:37 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:44:37 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun Spurs Innovation in Supercomputing In-Reply-To: <19990604064554.B80950@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:40:36AM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > Replacing the lock calls with calls to an API for a distributed lock > > > manager. This allowed the use of PostgreSQL in high-availability > > > clusters, with two machines sharing the same physical "disk" > > > (actually, RAID array). > > > > Not quick sure how this applies (if it even does), but v6.5 of PostgreSQL > > has had major changes done to it on its 'concurrency' code, to improve > > locking...but I'm suspecting that its not 'client' locking you are talking > > about here? > > No, it is not. I'm talking about using the same physical postgresql > database with two concurrent postgresql processes running against it > (the two different processes are on different machines, but the > database is on shared physical media). Am I being clear now? Okay, totally understood now. Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 4 23: 6: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.gglb.com (unknown [202.103.237.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80229154DA for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gglb@public.nn.gx.cn) Received: from mail pickup service by www.gglb.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 13:50:50 +0800 From: To: Subject: ¹ã¸æÁª°î¸üпìµÝ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 13:50:49 +0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Message-ID: <007d95050050569WWW@www.gglb.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ¹ã¸æÁª°î¸üпìµÝ---------------- http://www.gglb.com 1¡¢È«ÐÂÍƳö¡°Ãâ·Ñ·ÖÀà¹ã¸æ¡°À¸Ä¿ http://ad.gglb.com Äú¿ÉÒÔÔÚ´Ë·¢²¼ÄúµÄÒ»ÇÐ ºÏ·¨ÐÅ¡£ 2¡¢È«¹úΨһµÄ¡°¹ã¸æÈËÁÄÌìÊÒ¡±³ÏÑûÄúÔÚ´ËÇãÌý¹ã¸æÈ˵ÄÐÄÉù£¬½»Á÷¹ã¸æÈ˵ľ­ Ñé¡£ 3¡¢ÔÚ¡°¹ã¸æÂÛ̳¡±£¬Äã¿ÉÒÔÕÒµ½Ò»¸ö¹ã¸æÈËÕæÕý½»Á÷µÄ¿Õ¼ä¡£ 4¡¢¹ã¸æÁª°îÊÕ¼ÁËÈ«¹úÖøÃûµÄ¹ã¸æ¹«Ë¾£¬¹ã¸æ²ÄÁϹ«Ë¾£¬¹ã¸æÉ豸¹«Ë¾£¬²éѯ¸ü¿ì ½Ý£¬Ôö¼Ó¸ü·½±ã¡£ 5¡¢×îйúÄÚ¹ã¸æÐÂÎÅ£¬¹ã¸æ¶¯Ì¬¡£ 6¡¢È«ÐÂÍƳöÆ»¹ûÈí¼þ´óÔùËÍ£º¶àÖÖÉè¼Æ¡¢Í¼ÐÎÈí¼þÎÞÏÞÖƸßËÙÏÂÔØ¡£ 7¡¢´óÁ¿¹úÄÚÓÅÐã¹ã¸æͼ¿â£¬½ÔΪȫ¹ú¸÷µØµÄ»§Íâ¹ã¸æͼÐΣ¬Ô­°æÔùËÍ£¬Ï£ÍûÄܸøÄú ´øÀ´Áé¸Ð¡£ À´¹ã¸æÁª°î£¬×öÁª°î¹ã¸æ............ http://www.gglb.com ¹ã¸æÁª°îÏÂÔØÕ¾µã£º................ http://download.gglb.com ×îÖØÒªµÄÒ»µã£¬ÄúÔÚ¡°¹ã¸æÁª°î¡±Ëù×öµÄÒ»ÇУ¬¶¼ÊÇÃâ·ÑµÄ¡£ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 5 5:24:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from colin.muc.de (colin.muc.de [193.149.48.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3FB4315090 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 05:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lutz@muc.de) Received: from tavari.muc.de ([193.149.49.22]) by colin.muc.de with SMTP id <140570-2>; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 14:24:17 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tavari.muc.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA12325; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:01:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from UNKNOWN(192.168.42.202), claiming to be "ripley.tavari.muc.de" via SMTP by morranon.tavari.muc.de, id smtpdV12323; Sat Jun 5 12:01:24 1999 Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:00:54 +0200 From: Lutz Albers To: Matt Behrens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSH2 (in FreeBSD-Questions) Message-ID: <871118459.928584054@ripley.tavari.muc.de> In-Reply-To: Originator-Info: login-id=lutz; server=mail X-Mailer: Mulberry (Win32) [1.4.3, s/n U-301229] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Freitag, 4. Juni 1999, 18:04 +0200 Matt Behrens wrote: > [ This is not really -security related anymore. Can't think of a ] > [ good place to move it so followups are directed to -chat. ] > > On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > : What does a typical path variable look like on your systems??? Long > : paths are bad for shells. Yea, I know, the hashing stuff should keep > : a single copy of a shell pretty quick, but every time you fork off > : another one your going to have to go hash the path list. > > Well, why not do what I do -- I have /opt/packagename/bin, > /opt/packagename/sbin, etc. and I simply do this after installing > a package: > > cd /opt/bin;ln -s ../*/bin/* . Do you know the Modules package (www.modules.org). This might spare you the symlink game. You specify which environment variables are to be changed and then just say 'module add ' or 'module rm '. Granted, you need a patched shell to support the resulting long PATH variable, but on the plus side it gives you the possibility to install and use multiple version of a package without major problems (i.e. different gtk versions) ciao lutz -- Lutz Albers, lutz@muc.de, pgp key available from Do not take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 5 6:59: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from megaweapon.zigg.com (megaweapon.zigg.com [206.114.60.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B786B14CE1 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 06:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@zigg.com) Received: from localhost (matt@localhost) by megaweapon.zigg.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA26022; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:58:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from matt@zigg.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:58:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Matt Behrens To: Lutz Albers Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSH2 (in FreeBSD-Questions) In-Reply-To: <871118459.928584054@ripley.tavari.muc.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 5 Jun 1999, Lutz Albers wrote: : Do you know the Modules package (www.modules.org). This might spare you the : symlink game. You specify which environment variables are to be changed and : then just say 'module add ' or 'module rm '. : Granted, you need a patched shell to support the resulting long PATH : variable, but on the plus side it gives you the possibility to install and : use multiple version of a package without major problems (i.e. different : gtk versions) Yeah, I've heard of it, but didn't get too much farther than looking at it. It looks interesting, and very well-planned, but I guess I fail to see the advantage of it over symlinks, especially because there is a lot of groundwork to cover. Is there something inherently bad about symlinks? :-) I mean, with the symlink structure, adding packges is very clean, and removing packages is as easy as rm -rf /opt/package, and rescanning the symlinks (better yet -- a script could be easily written up to look for orphaned symlinks, entirely in an automatic fashion.) The only thing that I have to munge with is patching the source tarballs before running everything *sigh* :-) Matt Behrens Owner/Administrator, zigg.com Chief Engineer, Nameless IRC Network To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 5 8: 5: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from colin.muc.de (colin.muc.de [193.149.48.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D59D14BCC for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 08:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lutz@muc.de) Received: from tavari.muc.de ([193.149.49.22]) by colin.muc.de with SMTP id <140559-1>; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 17:04:44 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tavari.muc.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA22220; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:54:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from UNKNOWN(192.168.42.202), claiming to be "ripley.tavari.muc.de" via SMTP by morranon.tavari.muc.de, id smtpdI22218; Sat Jun 5 16:54:01 1999 Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:53:31 +0200 From: Lutz Albers To: Matt Behrens Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SSH2 (in FreeBSD-Questions) Message-ID: <888675398.928601611@ripley.tavari.muc.de> In-Reply-To: Originator-Info: login-id=lutz; server=mail X-Mailer: Mulberry (Win32) [1.4.3, s/n U-301229] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, > Yeah, I've heard of it, but didn't get too much farther than looking > at it. It looks interesting, and very well-planned, but I guess > I fail to see the advantage of it over symlinks, especially because > there is a lot of groundwork to cover. Is there something inherently > bad about symlinks? :-) I mean, with the symlink structure, adding > packges is very clean, and removing packages is as easy as rm -rf > /opt/package, and rescanning the symlinks (better yet -- a script > could be easily written up to look for orphaned symlinks, entirely > in an automatic fashion.) The problem with this approach is the fact, that this is a single user oriented concept. Let's assume that two users on your machine are wanting to use gtk-1.0.x and gtk-1.2 simultaniosly. Only one of them could create these symlinks. With modules a user could even use both (in different XTerm windows) without any problems. Cleanup's are also easier: i just need to delete the /opt/package directory and the modulefile (plus additional datafiles). -- Lutz Albers, lutz@muc.de, pgp key available from Do not take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 5 14:26:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5687B14F37 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 14:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10778 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 17:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 17:26:55 -0400 (EDT) From: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Has juniper been invited to FreeBSD Con? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone invited juniper to FreeBSD Con? I think it would be really cool to have paul or someone from Juniper there to talk about JUNOS. Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 6 2:45: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4761914CCA for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 02:44:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p10s02a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.210.17] helo=marder-1.) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10qZU8-0001tE-00; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:44:56 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id KAA00349; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:43:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:43:00 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: userfriendly is sharp, our government is not Message-ID: <19990606104300.B254@marder-1> References: <199906041139.VAA11862@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199906041139.VAA11862@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au>; from Stephen McKay on Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:39:37PM +1000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 09:39:37PM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > Before I even knew what was going on, UserFriendly was on the ball: > > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99may/19990530.html > And today's follow-up :-) http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99jun/19990606.html > In case you (the rest of the world) want to have a laugh at the > new internet underclass (us), check out http://www.efa.org.au and > read about the Australian Net Censorship Legislation. > > You might think that some Australian coders are sharp. But we more > than make up for that with our politicians! :-( > > Stephen. > > China, Singapore, Australia - Will you be next? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message