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Date:      Tue, 02 Feb 1999 02:29:40 -0500
From:      W Gerald Hicks <wghicks@bellsouth.net>
To:        kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au
Cc:        gummibear@mediaone.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Regarding Promoting KDE - Wait, why not GNUstep?
Message-ID:  <19990202022940E.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:52:18 %2B1030 (CST)" <Pine.OSF.4.05.9902021632300.25770-100000@bragg>
References:  <Pine.OSF.4.05.9902021632300.25770-100000@bragg>

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From: Kris Kennaway <kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au>
> On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Joey Garcia wrote:
> 
> > Okay, so KDE might be easy to use for newbies coming from Window
> > 95/98/NT because it sort of looks alike, but why add an enviroment that
> > slows down the system?  I used to use KDE as my main window manager and
> > enviromnet, but I have since then switched to Window Maker which seems
> > to be a nice setup because of it's small memory usage and it's slick
> > looks.
> 
> I don't like or use KDE, because I consider myself a "power user" with enough
> technical skill to not need a WM which buries everything behind a GUI (and
> includes things I don't need). However, this is precisely what (a large
> percentage of) UNIX/FreeBSD newcomers _do_ need. You and I may never make use
> of this option, but if we were to use UNIX for the first time under such a
> system, would it be any better than being dumped into a console prompt, or twm
> (as today)? Of course it would be.

Depends on how well Microsoft/Apple marketing has worked you
over.

You can be "greeted by a console login" or "dumped into a console 
prompt", depending on the spin put on that process by whoever is
pushing what.

I obviously don't agree and believe any attempt to so completely
shelter a user from needing to learn will harm the user *and* the
community who must now look after them.

Kinda like the welfare system does...

> 
> You're looking at this from the wrong point of view: it's not intended as an
> all-encompassing master solution which will be expected to be used by all
> users of FreeBSD, and in fact won't have any impact at all on people who don't
> "opt in" by selecting to install the environment from sysinstall.
> 
> The intended audience is for people who are new(ish) to UNIX environments, and
> who are uncomfortable having to whip out vi and edit WM config files, or type
> pathnames at a shell prompt. In time, perhaps they'll decide they've outgrown
> the protective surrounds of KDE and are ready for something more
> hacker-oriented. A quick 'pkg_delete kde;pkg_add windowmaker' and they're
> ready to play with the big boys.

WHOA!!!  Window Maker doesn't require manual editing of configuration
files. As Joe mentions below, it interoperates with KDE and there is
specific support provided..

Keep your eye on RedHat; rumor is that they have decided on Window Maker
for their next major release.

I still don't believe KDE is a good choice for newbies (maybe someday).

Sorry.

> 
> > GNUstep, which uses Window Maker as it's defualt window manager, seems
> > to be making some advancement adding Gnome and KDE support (with Window
> > Maker), and creating it's own OpenStep-like API.  GNUstep doesn't use
> > third party (at least not that I know of) software in order to create
> > it's enviroment.
> 
> You're missing the point. This isn't about which WM is cleanest, smallest,
> fastest, or "best" (if there is such a thing). Sure, KDE may be big and/or
> bloated, and WindowMaker + a dozen other things can do the same thing as
> the KDE distributions, but the point is it's signficantly more complicated to
> either a) set up into a seamless whole for Joe Newbie to instantly be able to
> start using, or b) too disjointed for Mr. Newbie to use without a steep
> learning curve.

WHOA!  Exactly the opposite experience we've observed.  KDE has been
extremely disjointed and instable from our experiments.  On the other
hand, the GNUstep stuff (especially from Alfredo Kojima) has been very
good.

> 
> KDE is the only such integrated desktop package currently available - there
> are a full suite of applications published by the same people, with a
> standardized interface across the lot. _That_ is all the newbie cares about;
> once they have matured and learned, they will be ready to experiment with
> other choices, and/or customize things to their liking.

I believe most will be/have been too damaged by these sort of tools
to progress very far.

Learning to navigate and edit text are fundamental things,  which allow a
progression to more difficult ones.  IMHO, it's not something which
can, or should, be deferred.

Start at the command prompt and master it before using a GUI.  Sorry,
I've had too much success over the years with this approach.

> 
> Remember, nothing is forcing people to use KDE if they want to do the same
> things they do now - they just don't check the little box in sysinstall saying
> "Default desktop environment".
> 

I don't believe KDE is up to it (yet).

> Having said all this, the last time I tried KDE was the 1.0 release, which I
> found to be terribly unstable. I assume from the lack of comments in this
> direction that the code has matured a lot since then and this is no longer a
> problem. If so, I think this is a superb idea and not one which can be
> reasonably objected to. If only I had some free HD space to reinstall KDE, I'd
> jump in and help get things underway.
> 

Ok, I'm fair.  Just tried it in December, but I'll give it another look.

Oh boy, kmahjongg.  Now _there's_ something useful.  Not.

Jerry Hicks
wghicks@bellsouth.net

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