From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 05:29:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7186332F217 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:29:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l31v2rmcz3gZP for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:29:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Find out OS version and plattform? Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 23:29:52 -0600 References: <16b61b7a-a313-883a-067a-b424b488b2de@nebelschwaden.de> <20200613091714.aa727af47134d742d6136118@sohara.org> <77a4e519-deda-9113-e0d8-b7ae0a8d1f13@FreeBSD.org> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <77a4e519-deda-9113-e0d8-b7ae0a8d1f13@FreeBSD.org> Message-Id: <28A34A1E-EB9B-4EE6-8FB3-E8E1D80DA108@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l31v2rmcz3gZP X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.38 / 15.00]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.28)[-0.276]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.02)[-0.019]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.08)[0.075]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:29:56 -0000 On 13 Jun 2020, at 02:27, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 13/06/2020 09:17, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +0100 >> Matthew Seaman wrote: >> On 12/06/2020 10:03, Ede Wolf wrote: >>>> linux has something like /etc/os-release, which is a textfile, is = there >>>> an equivalent [method] in FreeBSD? >>> Yes. It's exactly the same. >> Since when ? There isn't one on my 12.1p3 box. > Yeah. It's been a thing for about 6 months. >=20 > = https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/libexec/rc/rc.d/os-release?view=3Dlog= But this file (neither file) exists in 12.1-RELEASE, so I would say it = is at best an upcoming feature. --=20 "Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of some unspeakable disease." "That depends, Sir," said Disraeli, "whether I embrace your policies or your mistress." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 05:38:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE2B32F5D5 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:38:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l3CP2pdkz3y0t for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:38:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2020 23:38:07 -0600 References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> Message-Id: <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l3CP2pdkz3y0t X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.15 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.10)[-0.098]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.08)[-0.081]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.27)[-0.272]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 05:38:10 -0000 On 13 Jun 2020, at 09:44, Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:09:43PM -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 11:54, doug wrote: >>> See = https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#id= p44832888 >> Seems very out of date too me. For example the first thing it says is = to wrap messages at 75 characters because not everyone uses GUI = mailers. This may have been relevant in 1995, but it sure isn=E2=80=99t = now. CLI MUA=E2=80=99s handle long lines just fine. > If you had wrapped at 75 characters then the quoting would be much = easier to read. Then your MUA is very poor at its job. --=20 May you live in interesting times From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 07:08:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36B9330D73 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:08:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l5D76gYWz42Yt for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:08:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id l6so12527465ilo.2 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:08:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Xn8iRX5AWYDqYvNjgdQi3zdMm4FFwoz/t+ntewQkcus=; b=hey1ZbRHMbj/SMVWShS/3Wj+OYUEjlqy3GhCawcINxvF7fGzhoUB06iLkxx+bClMar z/LEWVdQFrikL2vY7LzRTuOAVvq6mgrxSrIlUzlP3sCIwupMJHtqbQICfUKGv6c5wgfA HQYXRTZn1rUbIEhqjYfbfN2BZ1R/es9TUzwyJ8nIb3IN3GA93aJMLs2A8sZYDohm2Yio xyVgGnFya2rvAWUNqFtVHZg5LqhGtJxu/NP7+yWyaMGQ7JPPwdXwvI6zD8J3u57IzbI8 TRlgd2anJzqO5pIhx4OYLzUbAD+mxHrvmmFz+KVnmLnQ38MOLvqN5P39dugtM6ch/9AQ qdhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Xn8iRX5AWYDqYvNjgdQi3zdMm4FFwoz/t+ntewQkcus=; b=hH+eXt3g0Y5QkbpFGEbPlpmiNk2z1gI2UwfFmmyqDWCYd69h8QbXBz49YLiMuIqORp TFQ4nemd2/n9msdEMhtnkmcWxySqltr8alRw1aE3vbj1SQUP8bNmsuJ/676rJ14l7QoS Vrn5YN8W8S3PXcVyeaseBGxQIc4kGJAo15h+LO8rF6N/NEzg4yHX+oGOHODRv2RmIm+B JksW8RFzdTnHKYMNGSYKFXGfmP101W0+gmZ4+51FjRW+i321cp0AKhgUZMUIYqf1WXcb GX3Nz845sToW3qtYff0x1Eajjh9tvR7ckYajc7Q1afQfmH2k/AAUfl0pSPJpL7uLfiWm 8dDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531aecCicLIpGGDVYZTLo0Yj+rO5C1RASGdFGAGS4JHk5SEvGgJj ZqdO/Nj4DTMJWWuGob7W95nLpkqsPyTUxZ99Ybk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbOAvj7WUQwUHzmvhpwLhpKgFx9j49VUQTrGP4v5R44WzakLWz1RYjIYNBWRoBjRBgzNBAoW4k7az0XuJ5ctg= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e4a:: with SMTP id s71mr20619678ilb.119.1592118534473; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:08:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> In-Reply-To: <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 03:08:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: "@lbutlr" Cc: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l5D76gYWz42Yt X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=hey1ZbRH; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::135 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.15 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.014]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::135:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.14)[-1.141]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:08:57 -0000 On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 1:38 AM @lbutlr wrote: > On 13 Jun 2020, at 09:44, Kevin P. Neal wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:09:43PM -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > >> On 10 Jun 2020, at 11:54, doug wrote: > >>> See > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#i= dp44832888 > > >> Seems very out of date too me. For example the first thing it says is > to wrap messages at 75 characters because not everyone uses GUI mailers. > This may have been relevant in 1995, but it sure isn=E2=80=99t now. CLI M= UA=E2=80=99s > handle long lines just fine. > > > If you had wrapped at 75 characters then the quoting would be much > easier to read. > > Then your MUA is very poor at its job. > Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own good and fundamentally broken in a critical way. When sending code snippets it is *CRITICAL* that white space not be modified in any way. Some languages (like Python) will even not work or produce buggy code if your indents (white spaces) are wrong. Note I consider Python too smart for its own good for this reason but it makes it even more important the MUA *NOT* mess with the message in *ANYWAY*. > > > > -- > May you live in interesting times > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 07:40:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70148331465 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:40:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l5w119J6z44CX for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:40:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l5vz2Y1tzFg0K for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:39:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592120399; bh=nWHuElKA90lAXufvXJ70uKRXtffjuEcCsyYwKSGpEck=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=XXKCEu4N756PLuQCBDA7sKY3GzcMZEGPC0/AKCIeAbj1MwikirJqqP8MwNbUaiP3r 8wnjRuBftQX6YvYGCs9ofLoHEby72hN7pQp8fTHh/bxt7TcUDgPnXs8A/wP7c6jIQI Gj6j80aRjuEsFks/cT8uILVbXf2qRzUkj3tNX2lU= X-Riseup-User-ID: A30101F0CED98AB7E1209A1DBFDF642630F1776DF373A850A1FAA20CF34B0292 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49l5vy6KLcz8sg3 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 00:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 09:39:58 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l5w119J6z44CX X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=XXKCEu4N; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.86 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.24)[-1.237]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.002]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:40:02 -0000 On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 23:38:07 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >On 13 Jun 2020, at 09:44, Kevin P. Neal wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:09:43PM -0600, @lbutlr wrote: =20 >>> On 10 Jun 2020, at 11:54, doug wrote: =20 >>>> See >>>> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.htm= l#idp44832888 >>>> =20 > >>> Seems very out of date too me. For example the first thing it says >>> is to wrap messages at 75 characters because not everyone uses GUI >>> mailers. This may have been relevant in 1995, but it sure isn=E2=80=99t >>> now. CLI MUA=E2=80=99s handle long lines just fine. =20 > >> If you had wrapped at 75 characters then the quoting would be much >> easier to read. =20 > >Then your MUA is very poor at its job. FLOSS provides diversity. If you dislike diversity and arrangements you don't understand FLOSS. On an international mailing list we care about different levels of English skills. The English of some subscribers, including myself, is broken, rudimentary. We also need to care about the MUAs available for BSD or Linux, at least about those that are usually used. If some MUAs are "very poor", but still apply to arrangements the FLOSS community made, it's wise to accept those arrangements. Most agree that MIME is ok today, we accept changes to the good, but still most of us agree that breaking lines at around 72 chars and not using HTML still makes sense for several good reasons. A mailing list for FLOSS software is mostly used by people using a BSD or Linux MUA. The minority is using web interfaces, Windows, Apple or Android MUAs. It's possible to resize the window to the users needs and the lines get wrapped to a length the user prefers, but keep in mind that it makes sense to have a known limit to format e.g. ASCII graphics. It's good to assume that a minimum of 70 chars is available and to not exceed 80 chars. Usually lines get wrapped at or close to 72 chars. Assume fencepost errors of one or the other MUA and quoting levels, so you know how you could format a plain text mail, with e.g. ASCII graphics, to make it still readable after quoting. Some people claim that breaking lines, breaks readability on smart phones, but actually it's possible to rotated a smart phone and actually this mailing list is about an OS that is not used for smart phones. HTML formatting doesn't work, it fails almost all of the times. The only safe way to format an email (without using attachments) is plain text, a font with a fixed length and a more or less known minimal and maximal length limit. How do I know, what most FLOSS related mailing list subscribers think is the best arrangement? Could I provide some facts for my claim? No, the claim might be incorrect. But definitively most of the old hands, who are those who provide most of the helping hands, consider it as the best arrangement, for good reasons. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 08:06:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7BD8332592 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:06:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l6V41NVgz452c for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l6V265GdzFg5r for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 01:06:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592121962; bh=WidoJKyl/EWD1jxSeXchY6lMCxBByYHM+zHbyi8gaS0=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=LCPtQi9sMTQjoUoj879QD2uRzD2lBUjKc8LKcR88m8fWcp2Ony/GLhf3yi3iymwXu ym832mMtekcLWlNQNIr34XOdOKZhrLFUF3SXNT1oZVyJIOEF4zI6ugBjQEzWJJDo6f ZDZMMNSPJnMtcNSKWBQjzi3o8meAHoOvPcqHN6jk= X-Riseup-User-ID: D3848D9F4570DDFC24E795A7F23F05707725F28D7117E062DE3EA5BB4E003EDF Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49l6V22145zJmvr for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 01:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 10:06:02 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l6V41NVgz452c X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=LCPtQi9s; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.75 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.014]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.14)[-1.140]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:06:04 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 03:08:42 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own good >and fundamentally broken in a critical way. Yesno! The MUA could wrap the lines on demand, so long lines for code are not wrapped by default. I add two actions to claws mail [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ cat .claws-mail/actionsrc | tail -2 Wrap lines: |fmt -s -w 75| Unwrap lines: cat %f actually I _never_ use them. However, it's usually possible to configure a MUA, sometimes it's useful, especially if there should be no windows that could be resized ;). If resizeable windows are used, then lines should get wrapped. Indeed, for code, logs etc. scrolling would be better. However, the main point is and I agree with this, a MUA most not reformat a message by default. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 08:11:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA2A33246F for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.189.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49l6cN3d8jz45bV for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 0pZzzVcVM1l2kOuuEm_dOfj3I.IqgLJcZhfJVHkDtH1vnNvQ40kGV5837CEfldv HZjkAj6XtJoqP9EvY88ioQbfQeekFFm4f8SsQU7xtkeRDgZQtRui2tEyU_5M2uuqwTPw4V90pJo3 MOmjANx3QuDUdU2P1Dw3jDdWWpQvFSihcBsIs4Nfu5hfkqL6wtuULHCOYPQGPtDZ.3BASLQ2neoE cSHvQDfdrdAS8xi8MOSbXgOLVOScFd.cuP7HCZCbWGaEuQ9B0OChdEvn7GXixZsOrk9TFZq1_.QF w2CC8XB5ptbiYUdK5WldfctQ4RZ1oku87rDlkWMHfbMrXO9pk667tACl08A9ayoSYlsrJIrM3OBT A6VdT1drgy.FC.fN6nFR6Kvaowd5DDZg3j4Hl1mqUPJi4X4h7Ybq__PipGqZusraz1byhbZPuIsL VrF89_SjVNFEpPK3sGEQLz1tiXQr1Z45g5qJRbX7AasF4vMQ9HU1ZJV5aI392qwnw1cY69afDz9w jeK_Z4FO9bz1pjCWZy33RE4woce.fi94l6VLlY48dzfuJWt2aS9hiZ0PfXX7qKgNyDgsl.5CjHNv x3EyLhWwra4KkYb_VPg.oDYVLh9_CY2CFBKD6nwDC1co1yeK3ii3V6A_PCtI.athuNvdc8ho5FxU be4EN6GyBMka6nGq6Tcwo9wLagf4qkzVqm2bTzshte2w0kiYHuBM4L4f.mFvXxth7Qo_igHhIr4R SGRQ.1AVAynR4sAurSdNJhAj8jiatn8sY4iXzHqYoki0hG.3XXFglnnFeMZ_SDp5nnbgteSBEoN5 qMtIrkDYnTzF_9kF_pQSCrpUJwgcJzxthWqxDyeC8OygvbZU33_INQvFnCc.oueNOiFtotKrFwMc 0opH5NDSV4B13ECOKOyOlHH11E_GpkIeqApA.hl4HV0YDnUfpFn17qNUaC3IW6ZwlsFsK8RvOp63 EbsKw2_P4CBHZZlmoCC8wHLeuxijdniaOapZJkIlg0unkPuz2nhgVqkD34vQdzuxOveEQxKOqVzR Fbzm7bt48bVLwh40ZlgRssHacF_HiKeTNSwgQ8hsmRZWmdF84OxljLuSjfWipBdZbyFI85XxlMZm fEPlA1BFDX97ft3iDOllzB7BHbK9nIxSGudzO5GVdAIwmUigmOUVPT6c11fBm86bEXGb6q5qJ0tQ N4Fqy_Zj3eV4vEPpiW5lAE6BLD1pK9K35YgHHNN6fEvr2GVJKSdJzMeRYhVu2CRbpuOqtjxFdiQO 8z410TwbLIzgxJr8EAYOw8GsoUAs_S9Mvj.EzOK7ynvTcOjTchcSpuwkF4YCBThJQsB6WlubwV1m othWFSbWUSgdpb80yJiLpoQoJT0S4VtqDvTSOoAAkesWK.G3j06bQkMPbno7L3UlOc92YSaBRw4A 1UqKLNfulOhEL Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:29 +0000 Received: by smtp404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ddc43ec61e7b690f5f6327189b116b8f; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-f174.google.com with SMTP id e9so6218319pgo.9 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 01:11:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iFpwbdoLXitAiz0DFcha0GE9iO6jFLSaMAw0JalCCD/356Vun asPlM3ibQGf3XrWkTy8hbROhIc+sJWKm8Y2/9+4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+V+budgUvj/L+JQaId+grXfIdQ4QIg5aR9ElL7hzKdpE36l1+LcObCxGW6RxawXUhQpARQU93hwwJ+4ojZ50= X-Received: by 2002:a63:8c18:: with SMTP id m24mr17899274pgd.289.1592122286317; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 01:11:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 09:11:09 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16119 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49l6cN3d8jz45bV X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.65 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.010]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.033]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.189.82:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.909]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.189.82:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 08:11:33 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 08:39, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > Some people > claim that breaking lines, breaks readability on smart phones, but > actually it's possible to rotated a smart phone and actually this > mailing list is about an OS that is not used for smart phones. > HTML formatting doesn't work, it fails almost all of the times. The > only safe way to format an email (without using attachments) is plain > text, a font with a fixed length and a more or less known minimal and > maximal length limit. Your average smartphone user will ignore the concept of a mailing list, and the great part of the under 25 (or those whose only contact with the interweb is and has been by smartphone) will probably ignore the concept of email altogether. For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard time on a technical mailing list. Just give up! -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 22:45:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4ED3478A2 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:45:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lV0M45lHz3VhL for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:45:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49lV0L5mMHz16C2 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 18:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Flowed text To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 18:45:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lV0M45lHz3VhL X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.91 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[166.84.1.89:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.956]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[166.84.1.89:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.477]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.977]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[173.48.64.3:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:45:08 -0000 On 2020-06-14 04:06, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own >> good and fundamentally broken in a critical way. > > Yesno! > > The MUA could wrap the lines on demand, so long lines for code are > not wrapped by default. Or a message could contain information about whether lines should be filled and word-wrapped. Like this message you're reading, for example. It's text/plain format=flowed (RFC 3676). The English text is marked to be filled and word-wrapped on display. The C program at the end is not. Unfortunately, not many mail readers implement text/plain format=flowed. Thunderbird does; Mutt has partial support; an obscure mail reader named Trojita does. There may be others I don't know about. Here's a picture of how Thunderbird displays this message: #include int main(int argc, char *argv[], char *envp[]) { for (;;) { printf("Yes!\n"); printf("No!\n"); } return 0; } From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Jun 14 22:56:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65BD6347E64; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:56:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lVFG5HXcz3WMP; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:56:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id g3so13576769ilq.10; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 15:56:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=A7Mj+dI6Qc04Tvf78bWYkIscDzGhWfbuuB0f931+pe8=; b=CQWUGVdbN8EzqMCKzKiAgWAc0OhJ0qYQdmRYai0LD3SALIJjryeey88eXajmJeQDfV lqvFKAvNuAT2bLJHcyt4ehY3LN5ZDEctPYhArlNNY4fIdPifEe8h1r8SlwlxET3aK4hU IRwrda5PqQDHIPNWlHHVTI2aokji3Y8NYAvce99ml4JUdtbH7o0ZbIPlvwm/fjHs1c47 u+cmYEwUZNeIOjiR8dSl143Z654d87kq7kLw1nlqPWEL47xgVSml7kX0b5vyUVccC6hV dppHh8kjoTpGZ4NBI47np58QvPqWOKrUkgv+XHWKo9xDK6GUSfSD8zJg9ggEtL+c0lew l8pA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=A7Mj+dI6Qc04Tvf78bWYkIscDzGhWfbuuB0f931+pe8=; b=Ldud+JfbgPOQq/EUu7E+e03mxmaauPgAmvXwNvxC9BK4Uu6dW38Y/+/GNPU0WPIONR FMNHOvaICg4gDscG7+w2iDTaWMjEIgIB6o0GrgyCzhneGAaJZteNEp1TYCovsnR4T/qu JCvjvzWKX4j6PN5Ok/CV6PeA8HivdSD/O4/EIhxLuHMYVDF94kh2eHl5xyq0EooMCh9G m+s2c6jp/SHt3mkPUA3/HxQzLFpQ4uc36/8GmW1XE3Qp9TgN0IQUd5as3WqEk6UDmyaZ D86PLfkux77aSXT6SQXQDGi6+I8IlLnjdXQmRdat3VhA5Xx0EVGrGVoWczFwE5imXR2N AabA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533cGBzhvZ2JL6j/bKhEMTyUjS/pn8c3PW6AxVAtnXusnBln/b2/ mW8ct0rIKMk1OHardKawoU88kjt+SKe7MhOCPkZIZV8F X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzNxKJZIlRm0jaHi1NyM//qt5SIwlQDuma0bAy0yF2JbW56IoV3qzBeSY2ftCrXwcJYzHwlRO4gtxyT0ozCJ+I= X-Received: by 2002:a92:5e4a:: with SMTP id s71mr23482531ilb.119.1592175377328; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 15:56:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 18:56:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Looking for a devel/bison expert to fix a port that depends on it To: FreeBSD Mailing List , FreeBSD chat X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lVFG5HXcz3WMP X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=CQWUGVdb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.84 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.010]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::129:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.84)[-0.836]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 22:56:19 -0000 I maintain devel/aegis and when devel/bison got updated a few weeks (months?) ago it broke a few things in the bison/yacc grammar and for despite repeated attempts to fix it I am stumped. Please contact me privately if you can lend a hand with this. The specific problem I am facing right now is conflicting definitions of the parse_error function (no matter which definition of 2 possible ones I can find I use I get errors [just different ones]). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 00:11:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F001F349BA4 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 00:11:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gal.iecc.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lWw40wvKz3ZtV for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 00:11:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: (qmail 17193 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2020 00:11:25 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=4327.5ee6bcad.k2006; bh=SCDwCYgyulkeDBRWvp3gzGohwHHZAHN63dEKSrGsi5s=; b=DS1ozZMls7h47SE70OypGKCsDSeUw8XWnU4wCzdv7jgiDqPaq/n+ku19MgN14Oe63NhT54Fc0JQRt8ieSVNotCzMY7S1650qRlmRjK+sMKN5XNyH340+pmirBZahKEEJQROoygSv2qzd+Mqza72SCvUolRg9Ex95G099w+oqEb+fRTZYjYvVtT0Q1/UTbnum/6cRTtb3RDj9v7s5dkuVw+//W3/q6tiEFDXpPvNxPrScvrCMbxx0bqP8gyDB6EP4 Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 15 Jun 2020 00:11:24 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id AE6301ABA956; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 20:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: 14 Jun 2020 20:11:24 -0400 Message-Id: <20200615001124.AE6301ABA956@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: kh@panix.com Subject: Re: Flowed text In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lWw40wvKz3ZtV X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=iecc.com header.s=4327.5ee6bcad.k2006 header.b=DS1ozZMl; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=iecc.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of johnl@iecc.com designates 2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=johnl@iecc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.42 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.026]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[iecc.com:s=4327.5ee6bcad.k2006]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[iecc.com:dkim]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:1f07:1126::/64]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[iecc.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[iecc.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.910]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 00:11:33 -0000 In article you write: >Unfortunately, not many mail readers implement text/plain format=flowed. >Thunderbird does; Mutt has partial support; an obscure mail reader named >Trojita does. There may be others I don't know about. All of the ones that normal people use like Outlook, Apple Mail, and the ones that come with your phone or tablet do. For us nerds, Alpine also does. x From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 01:14:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF1334AC5D for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 01:14:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lYK74YBRz3cy5 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 01:14:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:14:49 -0600 References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lYK74YBRz3cy5 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.51 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.71)[-0.709]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.09)[-0.088]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.30)[-0.295]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 01:14:53 -0000 On 14 Jun 2020, at 01:08, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: > Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own good = and > fundamentally broken in a critical way. =20 mutt softwraps text very well, and has done for many many years. There = is nothing arbitrary about it as it is something the user does. I don't = use Claws, but I am about 99% sure it will softflow lines at whatever = width you want (but not, iirc, window width). As for code, if you ae excepting cut/paste ready code in anything other = than source files you're going to run into problems. On 14 Jun 2020, at 02:11, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions = wrote: > For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying > (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, > but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, > Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard time > on a technical mailing list. Just give up! Damn kids, get off my lawn! Nearly everyone in the world who accesses email accesses it through a = GUI, not a console or a terminal. Things like how the text is displayed = are important options for users to have (not for senders, which is why = HTML email is still so offensive) so that the text appears in a way that = works best for the user. --=20 Once upon a time, a woman was picking up firewood. She came upon a poisonous snake frozen in the snow. She took the snake home and nurse it back to health. One day the snake bit her on the cheek. As she lay dying, she asked the snake, "Why have you done this = to me?" And the snake answered, "Look, bitch, you knew I was a snake." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 02:00:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448D534B990 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZKp2ggKz3fK4 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZKm4bRqzFg9j for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:00:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592186428; bh=OvHHL1JMA4ehdGi3+I4Jz+GLIER2xH2W1bxfCG7vyks=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=W1i30BQ5hGznBYmELwTjMnDo+2qUVu3VQI5QGKk8Ynr7Y8D76SygQ5zS/4GyAQO23 I3Tr2U/xMLH/f0qd0WlXA/qVNSdb3BeFfHQ6SvhCjSYjRiQoABx9cwdjMGs61Cb1e4 P/TpD6b1BY4qS4OTSypUwD8in6tCZP84TasLNSK4= X-Riseup-User-ID: D29DE644355E2C3EB8C1EB89F444EFC8686A00D3262B593E6F0E5E4E8B0C5DB9 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49lZKm0W7JzJpf0 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 04:00:26 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flowed text Message-ID: <20200615040026.6b73bef4@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lZKp2ggKz3fK4 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=W1i30BQ5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.41 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.037]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.771]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:31 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 18:45:04 -0400, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: >On 2020-06-14 04:06, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >>> Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own >>> good and fundamentally broken in a critical way. >> >> Yesno! >> >> The MUA could wrap the lines on demand, so long lines for code are >> not wrapped by default. > >Or a message could contain information about whether lines should be >filled and word-wrapped. Like this message you're reading, for >example. It's text/plain format=flowed (RFC 3676). The English text is >marked to be filled and word-wrapped on display. The C program at the >end is not. You are missing the point. Please read the original thread! We are talking about handling messages that are improper formatted, because some people are ignorant, unwilling to format plain text mails following common conventions for mailing lists. Some of us (me, too) try to encourage people to format emails correct in the first place, but some insist in breaking sane conventions. What you describe can be done by almost all, if not all FLOSS desktop MUAs, but the user writing an email needs to do it. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 02:00:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8195634B7BC for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZL61pxbz3fMZ for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZL52GsFzFg8g for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:00:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592186445; bh=DHwpA7laJnUl01d9hxdT1FmKfUYSvxDa/LWoSH1PdjM=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=aph31GMxz9WxXfaJvnBKdPcApZcjptMMmDO8f1aG7nXec7R8L1nJ1CzBbyEPEHqD4 xU0Pd4749BAR4bhdi9FltiEHW8lbFryZHbMccpW5A020jlXQ9sL3nsTJnsAfTBpZOs 1h1fYgHy7CbBLTEBZd03/rR6XeTZ3Pxj6GgisRG0= X-Riseup-User-ID: 0407D1030176C8DD010D0888BBA870D0558CB1D6850B239B2DA0C038E3348562 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49lZL36ryVz8vYl for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 04:00:33 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200615040033.2cedd207@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lZL61pxbz3fMZ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=aph31GMx; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.036]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.83)[-0.834]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:00:46 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:14:49 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >On 14 Jun 2020, at 01:08, Aryeh Friedman >wrote: >> Any MUA that arbitrarily reformats text is too smart for its own >> good and fundamentally broken in a critical way. > >mutt softwraps text very well, and has done for many many years. There >is nothing arbitrary about it as it is something the user does. I >don't use Claws, but I am about 99% sure it will softflow lines at >whatever width you want (but not, iirc, window width). > >As for code, if you ae excepting cut/paste ready code in anything >other than source files you're going to run into problems. There are reasons to attach files, but for discussions it could make sense to paste code, log etc.. However your mails are a PITA to read. Btw. right now I'm using Claws and I know that you a wrong. > >On 14 Jun 2020, at 02:11, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions > wrote: >> For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying >> (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, >> but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, >> Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard >> time on a technical mailing list. Just give up! > >Damn kids, get off my lawn! > >Nearly everyone in the world who accesses email accesses it through a >GUI, not a console or a terminal. Things like how the text is >displayed are important options for users to have (not for senders, >which is why HTML email is still so offensive) so that the text >appears in a way that works best for the user. You are ignorant! We explained in length why most of us follow a convention. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 02:20:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BE934B863 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:20:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZn85vz7z3g1b for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:20:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lZn73gV7zFgd0 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:20:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592187643; bh=PLhCrtXpnI2lKk44RM1F29lU/bSUY6hEHAXLoft8+ME=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=ANtgM4+Ryk8qHvd4Zb/tjNQK2sBPEwo/FuIq4XIrsh2v57UI80pH3fUy29bIsWrtw AuDU7wnsJdPqFRqbMOBg+vQI404jL0JqG+A81YUg62YILLMgnYFMJDZ2r7q54CvrVg oJfYYT11BUzlVNJC4wv50qFTOsakoYEHLUIQxql4= X-Riseup-User-ID: 567BEF24E937E9B3B5EBDB7F422109FF6F1897B1C0A11BC4CD02E3DAE3F738A6 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49lZn66lQJz8sYD for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2020 19:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 04:20:32 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Flowed text Message-ID: <20200615042032.1488c175@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200615040026.6b73bef4@archlinux> References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> <20200615040026.6b73bef4@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lZn85vz7z3g1b X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=ANtgM4+R; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.41 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.037]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.771]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 02:20:45 -0000 On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 04:00:26 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >What you describe can be done by almost all, if not all FLOSS desktop >MUAs, but the user writing an email needs to do it. Ok, I'm mistaken, "Format="flowed" is not added to the headers by Evolution or Claws, if parts of the body are line wrapped and other parts aren't. At least not by the settings I'm using. 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Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:46:21 +0000 From: "Norman Gray" To: Kurt Hackenberg CC: Subject: Re: Flowed text Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:46:20 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-ClientProxiedBy: LO2P265CA0312.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a5::36) To CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:401:8::19) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.0.14] (2001:8b0:df5:af53:fc5f:d942:8ca9:5ebf) by LO2P265CA0312.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a5::36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3088.18 via Frontend Transport; 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dkim=pass header.d=gla.onmicrosoft.com header.s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com header.b=qL6PljUX; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk has no SPF policy when checking 130.209.16.102) smtp.mailfrom=Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.81 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.995]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[130.209.16.102:from]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.958]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[glasgow.ac.uk]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[130.209.16.102:from]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:+]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.86)[-0.859]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:786, ipnet:130.209.0.0/16, country:GB]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:46:26 -0000 Greetings, On 14 Jun 2020, at 23:45, Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > Or a message could contain information about whether lines should be > filled and word-wrapped. Like this message you're reading, for > example. It's text/plain format=flowed (RFC 3676). A (tangential) problem is that not only is this MIME parameter only incompletely supported in mail clients (as Kurt notes), but the parameter might not survive going through an MTA. The email client I use does set format=flowed on outgoing text/plain emails, but when I cc myself, that comes back to me via an Exchange server, which (at some point in the message's labyrinthine passage through the server) strips or replaces the content-type header, losing the format=flowed. This seems straightforwardly an error, but when I reported it to local mail admins, they were sympathetic, but also realistic about how far down their priority list fixing it, or reporting it upstream, would be. They found an interesting blog-post by a webmail provider on the topic: , which I think sums up the situation rather well. The situation is disappointing, but I find it hard to work up much real outrage at it. Best wishes, Norman -- Norman Gray : http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/it/ Research IT Coordinator SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK Charity number SC004401 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Jun 15 10:20:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2F732EDA4 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:20:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49lnR86G53z4Nxw for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.24.244]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mnqfc-1j90YX3tzm-00pL2d; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:20:48 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 12:20:47 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Norman Gray" Cc: Kurt Hackenberg , Subject: Re: Flowed text Message-Id: <20200615122047.a559d124.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614100602.7f5c8092@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:nJazFgZ/JXZIaYpeZoq5G8M7kMmok6U+Xr6KpRip0+6QGbhJiv9 TUSMTnQObAtScpK/h2uVu1EjWxZUYEV/pgeK0pjV9MIpiHBfiH/9JOXKW5d80LPCklYVTvZ ngPvBOGDmFF14tDf54S4OSjmgPBnW5RySKpRskbaDthSSUt97gUDGa4pxeoRaqg+L4o7DUs bP8UerftX6oXcOi5sY+5w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:GBNyCxMFaoo=:RV//6uGQDVSQIejTu2gqac 5Bus0zFIWJXPhQUJ/7hPoEVi1EmeaGudVeqSAJGwQ+eqJp8MmGS7y9AyM1eumxfl2oL/Y4TkI 8mbhPMNoLimO6woia4JJ7j8inK6uElrfcnj5w8mkM9tcr6mnyGX3u53z00ErCAGIMDnaP5w0Z m/Idl0t9b/enCHsC+dOA8jCTBNBquowcntwVYCOPAXUvcC9WXv5egPmCUrSCI9seIDmiDh73d 0NepnX0/ppJShbFGOCFqDkKWFxajDqVa2SHRSk/UoYebz4gfqB89EdsIMQm3GxTxczFt08xVJ 0Mzft22CQ9G4lbMMnjZp2NrsUFherql1ldPIuHxI21jdFFQtylY4wAoL9Q1f1LWTMi92RBHfi 4vKYZmfJ2YEoVXInpBVciBTb+hjsOZO47OFfq1iU04XT6Dpi5s/gBuOIDCtJHhZEll8wazA3M kg5kkt4NDrlV56HZA6hVBu42LPn5Sa2T/bfxG/I8EiMY0sGV16gPsVaXyHyCZy1V68yvlXsLv HEQQVpR/Ao3aRbuX/2qU2ATdsaEW3DF5F8f7oW5KG0ASqtPtN49lErV7UzKR9m1pgkcL3vujq YDo1A8gmeoM021pxyCmviSp6K39DUdXssiyjtZTZ0Yl1PBDon4JuNHBuqm0FybFg9M5R561fL YTtPGB7Mh6XAwyCcxWSdchyDlZY41wsfRxePdMasp98+3R/VRmDdKcMsZoVHSeaOnG2Y84y/R 5evqrcf7C2awh9CeQZacx8xwrZBGPJwLcRtfb6JB8nOnDOekPuM+8GbUAlg22QPRonHmLtr+1 /13sY9hSx6fQFQy971eHTrYjGxZtbNvnRC/61Zawlpq7fZFaUVM1CSmy66XVhUE3kD3iVnJ X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49lnR86G53z4Nxw X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.34 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[94.222.24.244:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.42)[0.423]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.24)[0.238]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.28)[0.281]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:20:54 -0000 On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 10:46:20 +0100, Norman Gray wrote: > The email client I use does set format=3Dflowed on outgoing text/plain=20 > emails, but when I cc myself, that comes back to me via an Exchange=20 > server, which (at some point in the message's labyrinthine passage=20 > through the server) strips or replaces the content-type header, losing=20 > the format=3Dflowed. This seems straightforwardly an error, but when I=20 > reported it to local mail admins, they were sympathetic, but also=20 > realistic about how far down their priority list fixing it, or reporting= =20 > it upstream, would be. A few years ago, I visited a company office where they used a combination of "Outlook" and "Exchange" and even had their own "mail admins" to support this construct. Strangely, every message sent through this construct became mangled in a very unpleasant way: the time was changed, the timezone was changed, and all message content was collapsed into one line (spaces and tabs became a space, newlines became a space). So messages always looked like this: Yes. Original Message From: Bob To: Joe = CC: Management Subject Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: A= W: AW: Re: Re: Re: Meeting on Tuesday Date Mon, 15 Jun 2018 00:20:10 +0000 = Should wwe arrange the meeting at 14:00 or at 15:00? What do you think? Ton= y suggested we talk also talk about -Foo -Bar -Baz Please verify with Karen= ! Original Message From: Joe To: Bob CC= : Management Subject AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: AW: = Re: Re: Re: Meeting on Tuesday Date Mon, 15 Jun 2018 00:14:31 +0000 Samanth= a from accounting dept. wants to know if she is supposed to attend the meet= ing Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFe / Kind regards, Joe Q. Sixpack M.B.A. -- ABC= DE Stupid Title Office Director 2nd Class The Example Company GmbH & Co. KG= Businessing since 1995 Excellence office Certified ISO-9660 Boring corpora= te signature Instead of fixing the problem - obviously something was wrong with the configuration of their "mailing system", they invented a workaround that wasn't exactly good, but worked so well that everyone in the office had adapted it: They printed (!) the messages, took colored markers to highlight the relevant names and content, and then wrote their reply, leading to a new "message line" prefixed with their answer (where the reply looked normal in their composer window, but was added infront of the "message line" for all recipients). After a few weeks, nobody found that their solution, while working, was _not_ what you were supposed to do in such a case, i. e., talk to the "mail admins" and make them do their job. On every desk, there were binders and stacks of printed and colored emails... I bet they still praise their "paperless office" today. :-) To summarize: Sometimes, the right thing to do is to complain, and demand the responsible parties to do their fscking job, than to ignore it and learn to live with broken workarounds. --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 05:27:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9E634FF94 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:27:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from mslow2.mail.gandi.net (mslow2.mail.gandi.net [217.70.178.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mGsj07Mbz4KH1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:27:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from relay1-d.mail.gandi.net (unknown [217.70.183.193]) by mslow2.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113583AC48C for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:17:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sogo1.sd4.0x35.net (sogo1.sd4.0x35.net [10.200.201.51]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay1-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id F41E8240005 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:16:37 +0000 (UTC) From: =?utf-8?q?mayuresh=40kathe=2Ein?= To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org User-Agent: SOGoMail 4.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200 Subject: Possible to compile tree on a different =?utf-8?q?OS=3F?= Message-ID: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mGsj07Mbz4KH1 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mayuresh@kathe.in designates 217.70.178.242 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mayuresh@kathe.in X-Spamd-Result: default: False [8.20 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:217.70.178.192/26:c]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; SUBJ_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.178.242:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_DN_EQ_ADDR(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.26)[0.255]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kathe.in]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.55)[0.548]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.60)[0.600]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RBL_SENDERSCORE(2.00)[217.70.178.242:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:27:06 -0000 The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling (including= cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree under a differe= nt operating system. Eg. I can download and compile the NetBSD source t= ree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? ~Mayuresh From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 05:34:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA17328605 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:34:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (pb-smtp2.pobox.com [64.147.108.71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mH2C42s7z4KxX for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:34:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2CC6F619 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; s=sasl; bh=jpHCww+oJGR9/74inIR7xQcXstY=; b=joXFPB dxIgxJqPE4vQQ/veeuqDW8A+SWOXVqnz2F4rZVi3L/JLCJM2aJeUbAbze2ghv0FV MXML5Fq6IDfioHSvR8iCHrsXGB5+ZNozNPrOlAec5PhsLm9bF/yNL3Pj9D57AcU6 LqLQzQKfqPOxBhbVYA3HBn7NkU3wk1bI0d05o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; q=dns; s=sasl; b=NsGN+HU8ILRAk791a0fAg9o4Dpj1mjr5 VM7BzSSumcH9lF6m98RfNVVsYvXt8XJa3ADDxxEHmI/kHGB9udhD33mdChXGMevV mi8IFgk8K2FSTI4S7DP8UXMQgnXUoAcK9XJvxq21kjwpCoxpFJPrt0g6hi+ugz2H 7x9O+NJ79Xc= Received: from pb-smtp2.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35A56F618 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: from mail-il1-f174.google.com (unknown [209.85.166.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 721606F617 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wesley.p@pobox.com) Received: by mail-il1-f174.google.com with SMTP id t8so1237391ilm.7 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:34:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5309yrbMfuNaYW+MFM/LmDblJzMmIdz1HBAVx10mV2ovATPdU86W 0AtiZos3F54Vse8fMiUS3xfeuToKS6atnAaGHOg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtTy9oC96zYqLSVHRpUwBQWNcViCO1mumsI/nKngL2eJiWbXuVbCs4NGLTHZ0O5DRo8h4nOBtW6TwsTdV5TIo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:13f2:: with SMTP id w18mr1512438ilj.265.1592285664707; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 22:34:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> In-Reply-To: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> From: Wesley Peng Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:34:12 +0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? To: "mayuresh@kathe.in" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 0A394BC4-AF93-11EA-BF3C-D1361DBA3BAF-60148086!pb-smtp2.pobox.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mH2C42s7z4KxX X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=pobox.com header.s=sasl header.b=joXFPB d; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=pobox.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wesley.p@pobox.com designates 64.147.108.71 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wesley.p@pobox.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.65 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[pobox.com:s=sasl]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[pobox.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.108.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.011]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[pobox.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[pobox.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.52)[-1.518]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.020]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.108.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.147.108.71:from] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:34:28 -0000 Yes, it's possible. On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:27 PM mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling (including > cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree under a different > operating system. Eg. I can download and compile the NetBSD source tree > under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. > > Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? > > ~Mayuresh > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 06:08:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E7532950E for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:08:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from relay11.mail.gandi.net (relay11.mail.gandi.net [217.70.178.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mHnY3cdbz4MNF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:08:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from sogo9.sd4.0x35.net (sogo9.sd4.0x35.net [10.200.201.59]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay11.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BFFAD100007; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:08:31 +0000 (UTC) From: =?utf-8?q?mayuresh=40kathe=2Ein?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:08:31 +0200 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org To: "Wesley Peng" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4a98-5ee86200-27-56782000@163565984> Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=3A?= Possible to compile tree on a different =?utf-8?q?OS=3F?= User-Agent: SOGoMail 4.3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mHnY3cdbz4MNF X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mayuresh@kathe.in designates 217.70.178.231 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mayuresh@kathe.in X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.178.231:from]; FROM_DN_EQ_ADDR(1.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.70.178.192/26:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kathe.in]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.981]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.05)[-0.050]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUBJ_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:08:34 -0000 Where can I find material to read-up on this topic? On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:04 AM IST, Wesley Peng wrote: > Yes, it's possible. > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:27 PM mayuresh@kathe.in = wrote: > > > The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling (inclu= ding > > cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree under a diff= erent > > operating system. Eg. I can download and compile the NetBSD source = tree > > under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. > > > > Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? > > > > ~Mayuresh > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freeb= sd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 06:13:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B5E329258 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:13:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mHtj3fpbz4N1J for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:13:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mHtg5J1FzFdpS for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 23:12:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592287979; bh=f3ZNo98eUiAIM9ssQ+o5ErfpcR0lm+XNU18TsOeykjQ=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=OoMcN5H5WcpBcwf94BGNyPJT8xe+uyEPscKgLEfeFGKOFtg4bpnLcSbD8UY8pCmhi TjQPq1vAdzIxqSFuIiQEjP96bLCGmKHvtOEdp8yHxuTJh2h+/9KG5fsxY5w63RqlBJ fAh58mwj+F6iZ9PrAxzHKMnFwP2x8GlP8bVVrPJM= X-Riseup-User-ID: 5B78F9CB9D0FFC437AD701D63E95DF96BC672B7F34647EDEEF2EA2883BDCE4FF Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mHtg0j7yz8t5S for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 23:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:12:59 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? Message-ID: <20200616081259.4b1b4143@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> References: <2054-5ee85580-1d-6ecc0b80@214142625> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mHtj3fpbz4N1J X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=OoMcN5H5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.36 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.008]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.74)[-0.740]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.014]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:13:03 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: >The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling >(including cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree >under a different operating system. Eg. I can download and compile the >NetBSD source tree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. > >Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? By googling I couldn't find a script such as https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-build.html , but a howto https://marcelog.github.io/articles/cross_freebsd_compiler_in_linux.html From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 06:21:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB6C23298EB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:21:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (relay5-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mJ3w4RC4z4N7R for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:21:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from sogo9.sd4.0x35.net (sogo9.sd4.0x35.net [10.200.201.59]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 425D11C000C; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:20:57 +0000 (UTC) From: =?utf-8?q?mayuresh=40kathe=2Ein?= In-Reply-To: <20200616081259.4b1b4143@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:57 +0200 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org To: "Ralf Mardorf" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <483b-5ee86500-35-519df400@194132122> Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=3A?= Possible to compile tree on a different =?utf-8?q?OS=3F?= User-Agent: SOGoMail 4.3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mJ3w4RC4z4N7R X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mayuresh@kathe.in designates 217.70.183.197 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mayuresh@kathe.in X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.48 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.183.197:from]; FROM_DN_EQ_ADDR(1.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.70.183.192/28:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kathe.in]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.05)[-0.048]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUBJ_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:21:01 -0000 On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:42 AM IST, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > >The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling > >(including cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree > >under a different operating system. Eg. I can download and compile t= he > >NetBSD source tree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. > > > >Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? > > By googling I couldn't find a script such as > https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-build.html , but a howto > > https://marcelog.github.io/articles/cross=5Ffreebsd=5Fcompiler=5Fin=5F= linux.html You have not understood my requirement. I want to download the latest FreeBSD source tree on my machine running= native Ubuntu only and compile that source tree. As an example of what's possible under NetBSD, read the snippet (below)= from the NetBSD mailing list. =3D=3D=3D=3D NetBSD mailing list snippet =3D=3D=3D=3D as per martin husemann cd $(top-dir-where-you-put-the-netsbd-tree) ./build.sh -m evbarm64-el tools kernel=3DMYKERNEL to build cross toolchain + a single kernel. This will create "tools" in= a special tool directory (and tell you where). if you are later working on kernel sources, you can do it manually too:= cd $(top-dir-where-you-put-the-netsbd-tree)/sys/arch/evbarm/conf $(TOOLDIR)/bin/nbconfig MYKERNEL cd ../compile/MYKERNEL $(TOOLDIR)/bin/nbmake-evbarm64-el depend $(TOOLDIR)/bin/nbmake-evbarm64-el -j 24 lots of variants also work, but these are the two most popular (i think= ). =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Is such an operation possible with FreeBSD under Ubuntu? ~Mayuresh From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 07:03:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4969032A9CA for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:03:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mK0Z3vy2z4Qfj for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:03:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mK0Y1MjbzFdt1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:03:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1592290989; bh=mgECoRAesybkQPyxHlek9D+2XK9NY/1jrAsIOg+Ual8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=ZtEaibjmP+ydJt59uO3HqIu4NEduQnrAfFARVGYVBsWMe1d8czdmtOHHVj7wIEFuI 35wOzkxGvOcVfxGs+fNmLH2yC22TAiPuBmc2f+cQ8jmoKY/UlE7+hLoALFkdGRh1JU eP3mpjyzRG1D2jy6xnKChr7IvYWj5UywukEocrYg= X-Riseup-User-ID: 812D359ECA0EC533A79C165DB27FA9A3948D822344F08C825D5F97BB85756DFE Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mK0X4XWZzJmpW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 00:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:02:59 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? Message-ID: <20200616090259.0d5f0f1e@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <483b-5ee86500-35-519df400@194132122> References: <20200616081259.4b1b4143@archlinux> <483b-5ee86500-35-519df400@194132122> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mK0Z3vy2z4Qfj X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=ZtEaibjm; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.36 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.008]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.74)[-0.738]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.015]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:03:11 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:57 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: >On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:42 AM IST, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: >> >The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling >> >(including cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree >> >under a different operating system. Eg. I can download and compile >> >the NetBSD source tree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tools. >> > >> >Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? >> >> By googling I couldn't find a script such as >> https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-build.html , but a howto >> >> https://marcelog.github.io/articles/cross_freebsd_compiler_in_linux.html >> >You have not understood my requirement. >I want to download the latest FreeBSD source tree on my machine >running native Ubuntu only and compile that source tree. As an example >of what's possible under NetBSD, read the snippet (below) from the >NetBSD mailing list. > >==== NetBSD mailing list snippet ==== >as per martin husemann > >cd $(top-dir-where-you-put-the-netsbd-tree) >./build.sh -m evbarm64-el tools kernel=MYKERNEL >[snip] The first link I posted is about build.sh, so I seemingly understand quite good what you want. You don't understand my reply. Likely (I can't say for sure) FreeBSD doesn't provide a script comparable to NetBSD's build.sh, at least I had no success when googling. The second link posted by me is a tutorial on how to set up "a cross compiler (gcc) for freebsd under linux", which is a starting point, an alternative to a script that automagically sets up "everything". From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 07:28:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2E532BA15 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: from fwd1.porkbun.com (fwd1.porkbun.com [52.10.174.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.porkbun.com", Issuer "Starfield Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mKYF1Cwdz4Rm8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com) Received: by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix, from userid 497) id 7904841498; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:27:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 (2019-12-06) on ip-172-31-37-14.us-west-2.compute.internal X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00, FROM_FMBLA_NEWDOM autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.3 Received: from [172.20.59.136] (unknown [113.106.251.87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: warren@boxsci.com) by fwd1.porkbun.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C924E4105A for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:27:55 +0000 (UTC) To: FreeBSD Mailing List From: Warren Hua Subject: question about the copyright Message-ID: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:27:51 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mKYF1Cwdz4Rm8 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com designates 52.10.174.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.59 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:fwd1.porkbun.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.07)[-0.069]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:52.10.0.0/15, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[warren@boxsci.com,SRS0=QgCR=75=boxsci.com=warren@porkbun.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.61)[-0.606]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.92)[-0.917]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[boxsci.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[52.10.174.57:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:02 -0000 Hello I read through this guide: https://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html but I am not sure, if I add one or more customized modules (written or modified by ourselves) to freebsd kernel, and sell the biz service based on this freebsd hosting, does it break the copyright? Thank you. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 07:28:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD8932BA27 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (relay5-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mKYk1tR0z4Rpn for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mayuresh@kathe.in) Received: from sogo3.sd4.0x35.net (sogo3.sd4.0x35.net [10.200.201.53]) (Authenticated sender: mayuresh@kathe.in) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4761D1C000C; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:23 +0000 (UTC) From: =?utf-8?q?mayuresh=40kathe=2Ein?= In-Reply-To: <20200616090259.0d5f0f1e@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:28:23 +0200 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org To: "Ralf Mardorf" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <581-5ee87480-29-5e63d300@42519970> Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=3A?= Possible to compile tree on a different =?utf-8?q?OS=3F?= User-Agent: SOGoMail 4.3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mKYk1tR0z4Rpn X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mayuresh@kathe.in designates 217.70.183.197 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mayuresh@kathe.in X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.73 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[217.70.183.197:from]; FROM_DN_EQ_ADDR(1.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.70.183.192/28:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kathe.in]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.038]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.73)[-0.733]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUBJ_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; FROM_EXCESS_QP(1.20)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:28:27 -0000 On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 12:32 PM IST, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:57 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > >On Tuesday, June 16, 2020 11:42 AM IST, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:16:37 +0200, mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > >> >The NetBSD folks have mechanisms in place to allow compiling > >> >(including cross-compiling) their entire (or partial) source tree= > >> >under a different operating system. Eg. I can download and compil= e > >> >the NetBSD source tree under a Ubuntu system using GNU build tool= s. > >> > > >> >Does FreeBSD have such facilities in place too? > >> > >> By googling I couldn't find a script such as > >> https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-build.html , but a howto= > >> > >> https://marcelog.github.io/articles/cross=5Ffreebsd=5Fcompiler=5Fi= n=5Flinux.html > >> > >You have not understood my requirement. > >I want to download the latest FreeBSD source tree on my machine > >running native Ubuntu only and compile that source tree. As an examp= le > >of what's possible under NetBSD, read the snippet (below) from the > >NetBSD mailing list. > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D NetBSD mailing list snippet =3D=3D=3D=3D > >as per martin husemann > > > >cd $(top-dir-where-you-put-the-netsbd-tree) > >./build.sh -m evbarm64-el tools kernel=3DMYKERNEL > >[snip] > > The first link I posted is about build.sh, so I seemingly > understand quite good what you want. You don't understand my reply. > Likely (I can't say for sure) FreeBSD doesn't provide a script > comparable to NetBSD's build.sh, at least I had no success when > googling. The second link posted by me is a tutorial on how to set up= > "a cross compiler (gcc) for freebsd under linux", which is a starting= > point, an alternative to a script that automagically sets up > "everything". Okay, now I got it, so there's no automagic solution ready for use yet.= Thanks, ~Mayuresh From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 07:49:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134AC32C303 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:49:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mL2F6B3fz4TMW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:49:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592293782; x=1594885782; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=2+IKNCgqgr0TnupmFxIJpX4Z0Ej7ZMxfCQAxcPjgno8=; b=MskHArPlfNrhYGrSRbYGTDaCU9ZRU6BZx4ZomRWjsGsY3JLGgbH42O3sl/Dp1Q3+94GcimFT7fI2yU39GBL4pGEfoJ0X06g+NoefBRyIq+NuP1cog1bpNrO5stpud31V5Q8VTHajLw462Ac4544vodltat1hqM9kKbs9ISOu3+Q= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA3ZDdkMDIuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:49:28 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:49:27 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jl6LV-000ACI-UA; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:49:26 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:49:25 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: mayuresh@kathe.in Cc: "Ralf Mardorf" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Possible to compile tree on a different OS? Message-Id: <20200616084925.5ad28cda1cab6a20f3a2e892@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <581-5ee87480-29-5e63d300@42519970> References: <20200616090259.0d5f0f1e@archlinux> <581-5ee87480-29-5e63d300@42519970> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mL2F6B3fz4TMW X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=MskHArPl; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.65 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.010]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.92)[-0.924]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007d7d02.2c8ccc68ea9071244a4711062b743f0a@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:49:43 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:28:23 +0200 mayuresh@kathe.in wrote: > Okay, now I got it, so there's no automagic solution ready for use yet. That being said FreeBSD can cross compile itself for different architectures - so once you get the build toolchain bootstrapped it should be fairly smooth. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 08:04:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9542B32C8B7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:04:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mLMR69Vqz4V2b for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:04:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592294676; x=1594886676; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=8ZnIY1TVQC8YOk93IaAKDgCq11elcdMn7hI3aXWdpY0=; b=BPuv0VUC8Ae8KVUDKcimlSUGvilvA1FiRt2GzLYATMeYlWno3ig7JX8P01K2+j5odgRx2uduSu9ZnnIoqli080XAh9LemZz1rCG5dvtMz0OE8jMKlRu2v+ZMWvDBCdD+9zb+LjRDuBJ7XzYove9H11azU+41m3kbS5MXGOHiZrs= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA3ZDgzMTkuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:04:25 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:04:25 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jl6Zz-000AH4-SN; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:04:23 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:04:23 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Warren Hua Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: question about the copyright Message-Id: <20200616090423.99db56b6b9be1e317c43eac8@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> References: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mLMR69Vqz4V2b X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=BPuv0VUC; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.94 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.030]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.015]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.19)[-1.193]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007d8319.9f85e9c0204b85a9ada4b63d95faf5a6@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:04:36 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:27:51 +0800 Warren Hua wrote: > Hello > > I read through this guide: > https://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html That isn't a guide it is a legally binding license. > but I am not sure, if I add one or more customized modules (written or > modified by ourselves) to freebsd kernel, and sell the biz service based > on this freebsd hosting, does it break the copyright? As I understand the license terms and your intentions it does not, the language seems very clear you may use it with or without modification and you may redistribute it subject to certain conditions. You plan to use it with modification - the license appears to make no restrictions on how you use it. However I am not a lawyer and not competent to give legal advice. If it really matters you should get a legal opinion - it is ONLY my layman's opinion that failing to do so will not land you in trouble. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 08:34:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA4232DA08 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mM2H5hMvz4Wq8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: PRdmJEQVM1k3oRclzY0UQmHqmynwnKWSTNjmWAU.9OWVmmk88PFn5QT5P78fFuI H_J0.F4as8SaSlWZtMT.8El8RgZU9IKLPOpnS.hz28DNvFvzzSFKoEHKEeoTzKHieSbCS19q4.Ab itr7jOKxt_xAQiNjDAZJZSpPKIy3K8gQ.O18ZPFeD03ao0Zltw3w19ZQRAl0KCEmBghhFezliROm wJM5av2Y5CLzApNe.tDN6x9TfwQAV8O.vyDjVhbsjDZikTbK2H4AfUkPph_gM.nnsIIvqpH9tg6b KoI3VIj4tSBPJMU0zK5ziz356dcZC26dTJZMY6ZCMzno8wgBnclaSFMvMd5Ij.fqbnrEupgvOHms loTyJ41UMdoyqUdOjDTYiFcahLsebjRbMpI1otFYkDTBWtR4CluS97BBWxvPr3m9l3LT3LtOOS8O 2KcVemVYIlF0r2L2QTtjVqO6duovv0KnC3GnU97eTuQAROkZONlMRs9Iv7IRixQYOaeUspBNk2Ab VKXxZnYCe0rlHtqLfKEoaTiLmCrBQst.yL2r2pZ_V14BlrVoZ16ItzuxmjiBp45tFLIofqyI5guU rIjHpUKumRSNL3qICRZ6RWylJlHoUqXeZZV.zCRn28JDZZ.RgkL3f7_8yd1Psuapo0tya5BXq0WH 3eDD6GnHsyaClRalrcC7NxDdiDZOyIrgMM5ZBR.VA5dC7y_q9PfEK4A9MoHNP5E16juQxT5d3cOA QWC8_jK2Rfh1uINZ8rl5lQ0_iHUIDxGuKsBmVj0xSEkP4GKh0eAZFt1bzsJjTA85sQqXHSQHLLWo VXjdViEzqOYh1JX9FzCHOVfHVj1rW54lvsI1RYFmEj9bmkQsHT3_x4viXZsV9lwoInAsGSDM.Q8a WhD1e6k82Zr8_Si6E3at9a49HZRl77UDOwMbrCdDOGJiN5E5Do16ld.rymOSoondjB77AYMa07Bs hY8sjT.3KT5wi.13xmlm8_L_JNj15pRMox4_36xz67fEHdfjIsZvQJTSqx4QJr6PujVi6pNJVXwb TJQJw6zjhV4z_1Qbv7DgDQ2jBJa.3FHWCm3tHF4KAJD9ydu4LHHj6O8M.k0hBlBPUSE5alojZYPK 8n9bt1SpgAXTTlMSF5Vq.fo2rr3Tt45ZIn4W4H2vmnjrjF6PQZ_tynphlQtU.nVCsl7AiRF6cmL8 Q94bE.E2TEbbq6MQSMa5DRLu65n9vXgK9GnOWSxfBX8yKCXbEhLWOsfeaSjEL6waye1sYy7ZmzrM CUz6ILki92.wxNFuJ21dnvnm5de8qW7X0J_tCl2e_CnY6SKmGM7PJtlEVOed16r6I4.So0w0DLfg Rnz2y_cXmSbjdv2thOhFofiF9rNk6nUWui3uNqdWlIrLB1t6Uj_iMqhDml.XW8qlryShcY0hNZZx dzIyzNNzzvw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:46 +0000 Received: by smtp430.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0c8afea61ab5eb0f036386cd049e5ac6; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f50.google.com with SMTP id h95so1210809pje.4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530mEAMxuCk+wvu/o19Iga7EaZOd21zr2OK/nQMCr0oxOwtLKNUw r0dhdo84DNguoZw8pThnOyjNXciqZ7xftts6nHA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJvqkvHVzbbgTNT5QVQs7MlfoSJfSTAk31yM4XONkELlZ367+ZGIFhl3zvw4OGftsdd4JwN7nwNUxv97p9Szg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4c91:: with SMTP id my17mr1610280pjb.81.1592296484140; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 01:34:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> In-Reply-To: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:34:26 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: question about the copyright To: FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16119 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mM2H5hMvz4Wq8 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.94 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.970]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.186.146:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.26)[-0.256]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.186.146:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:34:48 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 08:27, Warren Hua wrote: > > Hello > > I read through this guide: > https://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html > > but I am not sure, if I add one or more customized modules (written or > modified by ourselves) to freebsd kernel, and sell the biz service based > on this freebsd hosting, does it break the copyright? > Adding modules and then selling the product is not a problem in itself. The problem is: what licence so you want to attach to the new product? For example, if you did that to the Linux kernel, your only option would be to distribute the new kernel under the GPLv2. I can only guess that you could make a proprietary product out of FreeBSD just by adhering to condition 1 and 2 of the above mentioned licence. Or, even better, you can sell the product under the FreeBSD licence. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 09:32:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175F532F8F6 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:32:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.75]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mNKK14Wtz4b8W for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:32:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MqJyX-1j8Ecm2O5j-00nNnV; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:32:47 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:32:47 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ottavio Caruso Cc: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: question about the copyright Message-Id: <20200616113247.6cf028c1.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <62dd152f-7c1a-a177-5224-b9005d04978d@boxsci.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:cTkExJs9UibnnBXKjP8v1cDBnA0adenslfOb0hXauEmH7xvzRLz Ezdvnlxoq1M3YdoeoeyuGjN20ytkymSXZ+8CRBFDiyXigD8RUHVNR0jxYSaH1L3fpcW1kng C7nVx8Mk0SzWMtq0tp4BRB2lNOQdX0vY+ygws+WbepGdFAiOzHQiAlNxx8yEEFh/zX8h+tE /gCYQo5PSM4Htpme4VTHg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:GnarCoyHky0=:wWeDP5A5uah7GVCXYcnNAH MUuyKhp10hNWP7pEyKT237eVcftNihCHB6bDdERFAX4UOFcL9CAZiMA/hmKuXQmXqfXNR5btg 7ZNbjPgDEUgIBK9ToETavBpaCWyx2Fy/dGTHyHAhCHN6XcRlMAXGiASe+i3T7ILTPbN6QEAyc S6cD9bXYvAw+oUuvoThtb6LtHHzIZESKN8dPWYu4tBvAiWn5HE28Gm1mf1lwz6D6suWosKdXv CTobjiCWISY4sT2H6aip6Q6LtyuIX2PNMXi3Z2vd6v9vg+tpn6K60V2NJdXDDYvwJ0+6MpGPJ 2gWla6GAB9emDxlfoIqulpeWIa0x1Nk7wqLfReTVq0fOTcgl202pHpYAiB2TQLsC7lk+1mzSW JUzZ4INuV/ISwte5YuhpRymMR+qtwNzS1aMGPtClJuURfXx8SHsVqd+tlkkLOhgQzIvL89APd WodFSxWLGNloegIqkl2eylph9R9UGrgYlaCXRP6ESD/w88PPgc3Dt6iJT+0auSi2Sit4+W5AF NcPSMC3PpEqh81Zd3EQmD1Td3jRsfOviN2tZfLQbtfiNxlRivCd0ASbx16mCuhyYBHAOk4DFQ nYgYBdpITyS6pyOrdL2aZtjpW3xo9dee6qvUl86DAKGRnJbHONYiFdR6l9DL0p5oVtgDChuXz dTm+LqVcywznpYHnVRmhlwcpPcA+XZQrCjK7MKs1moa3bNl8F3SCaToZb+0y1cmf5Fmu7+pxz BrosrMpduPe4v2jqN4/PHXeaayAPN/h0kebBcwLkBeOGLhiCq3ISup5alx6ugfo8PTlywTA67 JlN3uvshzhIJhUt7WlZt1hD51J4UYX7xABZ8Z+JKuZnTDjZvk0ZaKGciZIq3YVaPZb0XgT4 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mNKK14Wtz4b8W X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.75) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.01 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.21)[0.209]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.46)[0.461]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.94)[0.937]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.75:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:32:55 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:34:26 +0100, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 08:27, Warren Hua wrote: > > > > Hello > > > > I read through this guide: > > https://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html > > > > but I am not sure, if I add one or more customized modules (written or > > modified by ourselves) to freebsd kernel, and sell the biz service based > > on this freebsd hosting, does it break the copyright? > > > > Adding modules and then selling the product is not a problem in > itself. The problem is: what licence so you want to attach to the new > product? For example, if you did that to the Linux kernel, your only > option would be to distribute the new kernel under the GPLv2. I can > only guess that you could make a proprietary product out of FreeBSD > just by adhering to condition 1 and 2 of the above mentioned licence. > Or, even better, you can sell the product under the FreeBSD licence. That is also my understanding, not being a lawyer. And in reality, you will actually find products incuding software derived from FreeBSD ("taken for free") being sold. The BSD License explicitely allows this kind of use. However, do not confuse licensing with copyright! Because you can take FreeBSD as a foundation for your own product, it does _not_ change the copyright of FreeBSD, i. e., those who "made" FreeBSD cannot be deprived of that property; you cannot remove the FreeBSD copyright notice and put your company's there instead. See #1 and #2 "must"s of the licensing terms which makes it clear that copyright does _not_ change, and the notice thereof has to be kept. Similarly, for everything _you_ write, the copyright is yours (as the "maker"), and you can choose licensing terms regarding the use and distribution of what you made. Not providing the source code is absolutely possible. Still I second the advice to consult a lawyer if you really want to be sure. There might (!) be specific laws and regulation that apply in your country or juristiction. And always remember: "Two lawyers, three opinions." ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 10:19:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3067330CC0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:19:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: from outgoing.tristatelogic.com (segfault.tristatelogic.com [69.62.255.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mPMX1cqwz4dmf for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:19:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rfg@tristatelogic.com) Received: by segfault.tristatelogic.com (Postfix, from userid 1237) id 2CEF74E751; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:19:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" To: "Kevin P. Neal" cc: "@lbutlr" , FreeBSD Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd In-Reply-To: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <13114.1592302783.1@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:19:44 -0700 Message-ID: <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mPMX1cqwz4dmf X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rfg@tristatelogic.com designates 69.62.255.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rfg@tristatelogic.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.93 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.986]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.930]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tristatelogic.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.713]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14051, ipnet:69.62.128.0/17, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:19:53 -0000 In message <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org>, you wrote: >T24gV2VkLCBKdW4gMTAsIDIwMjAgYXQgMTE6MDk6NDNQTSAtMDYwMCwgQGxidXRsciB3cm90ZToK >PiBPbiAxMCBKdW4gMjAyMCwgYXQgMTE6NTQsIGRvdWcgPGRvdWdAZmxlZGdlLndhdHNvbi5vcmc+ >IHdyb3RlOgo+ID4gU2VlIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmZyZWVic2Qub3JnL2RvYy9lbi9hcnRpY2xlcy9t >YWlsaW5nLWxpc3QtZmFxL2V0aXF1ZXR0ZS5odG1sI2lkcDQ0ODMyODg4Cj4gCj4gU2VlbXMgdmVy >eSBvdXQgb2YgZGF0ZSB0b28gbWUuIEZvciBleGFtcGxlIHRoZSBmaXJzdCB0aGluZyBpdCBzYXlz >IGlzIHRvIHdyYXAgbWVzc2FnZXMgYXQgNzUgY2hhcmFjdGVycyAgYmVjYXVzZSBub3QgZXZlcnlv >bmUgdXNlcyBHVUkgbWFpbGVycy4gVGhpcyBtYXkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHJlbGV2YW50IGluIDE5OTUs >IGJ1dCBpdCBzdXJlIGlzbuKAmXQgbm93LiBDTEkgTVVB4oCZcyBoYW5kbGUgbG9uZyBsaW5lcyBq >dXN0IGZpbmUuCgpJZiB5b3UgaGFkIHdyYXBwZWQgYXQgNzUgY2hhcmFjdGVycyB0aGVuIHRoZSBx >dW90aW5nIHdvdWxkIGJlIG11Y2ggZWFzaWVyCnRvIHJlYWQuCi0tIApLZXZpbiBQLiBOZWFsICAg >ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBvYm94LmNvbS9+a3BuLwoK >ICAgIkkgbGlrZSBiZWluZyBvbiBUaGUgRGFpbHkgU2hvdy4iIC0gS2VybWl0IHRoZSBGcm9nLCBG >ZWIgMTMgMjAwMQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f >XwpmcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9uc0BmcmVlYnNkLm9yZyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0 >cy5mcmVlYnNkLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ZyZWVic2QtcXVlc3Rpb25zClRvIHVuc3Vi >c2NyaWJlLCBzZW5kIGFueSBtYWlsIHRvICJmcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucy11bnN1YnNjcmliZUBm >cmVlYnNkLm9yZyIK Bullshit it's not relevant now/anymore! Please wrap your lines at 75 columns and please use 7-bit ASCII only without encoding. Some of us never got onto the Microsoft-induced insanity bandwagon that preached that all email messages have to be HTMLized (and thus 10,000 times more bandwidth consuming that they need to be) and also we didn't sign up for the notion of having email, spreadsheets and other such crap be executable... a glaring and obvious security hole. I still use the NMH mail client, which dates from the 1980s. It is plain text only. I have never been infected with anything. Regards, rfg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 10:27:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA41133111F for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:27:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mPXL5yQtz4fDQ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:27:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MkprN-1j2ket3pjL-00mITJ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:29 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 From: Polytropon To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NCbFofYgY9tHWcyLNQ4jwxbxssjbEqtpFv1KLCdKagVb67Xlt+J 0kxMGyLlpjdJuKT/3XW48W8+ITdIDWWAH5UdYQDXmvDBidagvDM8JlnBZFQ5DuF+RNNjC4F cv52NTxkqrj/oW4q5kZPrU6Fxn9w/YECpfjQO7jMc1bMkNVKlHror4+FtbHunhrmQdcYKqh 10bIMg89O4JxoV0xIsmJw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:FF7nAR+5OzY=:KonpRNngDIcECpNGei7A5U cYYzRTF79n9SlCGOEmebWtwoSohi61SwgqEPYi2aBtzH1hH7D5ZQwhOYnwKL/vwiKyQhf8ky5 NFL6fW6494dvjPAhp0nsrpi3oQa+p+FyRJQEetj6FF5kkgeB9JJ8KfOZW5uwwGLJd4YjzsVTm BPmoyXL1O6pDNb5K9W7e0Zvyjm41caOkc9lJ4tj/O0+0n28KiiW/DUb7f7WmeNAupfz1dNwAU 7+tuM1hWxqsx/iY7z3epYlZEH0KPx7paBlLqlT6a7DBYqQTYFHLlacwxriCMhT8fDgBBuKq7J g/q3Qbjyyz5UyzIfQ/zConO/hhRHNAwbjbmq3gqp5mdg04IdIQOs/qKHzmuC4lHnb4F6El59y Nb1h9+N+IKeZPXy0+j396RVm6XBwKHP7LiVVujHZffIH5mUviOZb5VP2iQPL7xbR06PKvX8ie rttLNMX6oYgfGz+U8GT2TK+KqaxWESg4/yUJjNN6nMwuHZ9QO9qlU21c4DcTcDCa6zBFqYFjC iVqlHxB5mDUlYeS+7qVEaODUQW3x28h8PxNqvjzSZHxRF3t5lGRamhRpj6fDCP+OTRrG9R4HI zEyneSKwpOKhfE3vp1hwJL3qQt39O6Ot9laIXyi8/nJEU3qHx5KKegZ8Iy4GPGnxJ+gQiiHd/ 5M+0lfmUgvpYySWyg/N2SfHBo71+uBb/a6rttVEGMuOZXDaupk8mXy3+sTKnx3nmC319uRy19 ny/b0s5P+YP4D8Vvsb36rhYXxEiYnQ84WF45TJehZLsRyBwPVsWvmC94iTrM4lAKp637u0nVX HJiP/XLsq3ox5foTIwVtM6btPTQ+SM4d2ooOCGJBHCy+4BmMb8FcX6fsINVFfzhLRAd18Sh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mPXL5yQtz4fDQ X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.96 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.69)[0.693]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.89)[0.890]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.978]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:27:32 -0000 Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). I tried the "overburn" workaround (as suggested by cdrecord, with the precaution that this is non-standard) as follows (for testing, all parameters supplied manually): $ cdrecord dev=0,0,0 speed=8 -v -eject -sao -overburn -data But of course that was problematic, too. Capacity Blklen/Sparesz. Format-type Type 0 2048 0x00 No Media Present or Unknown Capacity Blocks total: 359846 Blocks current: 359846 Blocks remaining: -13044 cdrecord: WARNING: Data may not fit on current disk. cdrecord: Notice: Overburning active. Trying to write more than the official disk capacity. Result: It recorded! Track 01: 728 of 728 MB written (fifo 100%) [buf 99%] 8.0x. Track 01: Total bytes read/written: 763678720/763678720 (372890 sectors). Writing time: 646.563s Average write speed 7.7x. Min drive buffer fill was 94% Fixating... Fixating time: 7.867s cdrecord: fifo had 11653 puts and 11653 gets. cdrecord: fifo was 0 times empty and 11546 times full, min fill was 85%. Trying to boot that CD in the desired system - it starts from CD! But then an error occurs: FreeBSD bootstrap loader, Revision 1.1 Startup error in /boot/lua/loader.lua: LUA ERROR: cannot open /boot/lua/loader.lua: No such file or directory. Can't load 'kernel' OK _ No, that's not okay. :-( Oh, and: If I enter "help", as offered, I am being informed that help is not available... I booted the FreeBSD installation from the hard disk and mounted the CD: READ_BIG ERROR, and a "ls -R /cdrom" led to two further ILLEGAL REQUEST and MEDIUM ERROR messages. Maybe I should try a different optical unit, but the one in use here also booted (and installed from) a FreeBSD 4.5 CD I created many years (probably decades) ago, so I would assume that the disc drive is okay. The file mentioned above (here: /cdrom/boot/lua/loader.lua) was present on the CD and readable. File source: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/ISO-IMAGES/12.1/ Result file: FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso 763678720 bytes (728.4 MB says the browser) It would be nice to remove a few of the additional packages from the CD so it will fit on standard 650 MB (and therefore 700 MB) media _without_ requiring the workaround of "over- burn". My question is: When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround and possibly breaking the result? -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 10:51:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01541331EC8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:51:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQ490Z3Dz3RQr for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:51:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592304697; x=1594896697; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=A5pUV2R9E7v7L0X3Epkf1VyDknBudW9UwOIcyRLsQ8I=; b=i3KsDsuBsChIHK9pvD7TCZYiO+qF/zbTwNxtR4QcnKAWIorvs3KpXroVDuPPywlFxXa7p3J5FcPO9VmN+cu2Qga0KxW4ECiLJAYPC0bk9Jtw3x24YhSdk1VPWD6UWzzh+TehdE1MT1ACiQLwLXEtxNS4j7DDRtMECZmK11qZK6E= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA3ZmQwODQuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r4.h.in.socketlabs.com (s1-b40f.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.180.15]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:51:29 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r4.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:51:28 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jl9Bf-000Aja-IT; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:51:27 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:51:27 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQ490Z3Dz3RQr X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=i3KsDsuB; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.93 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.029]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.19)[-1.189]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200007fd084.e0d066558693487d32a4fec4cd1f584e@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:51:38 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the > FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record > this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium > (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). That seems to be an oops, disc1 and disc2 were always supposed to be for use on CDs. There's always -bootonly but that has to download the distribution files which may be a problem - if not that's the way to go for now. > When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be > used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround > and possibly breaking the result? Shortly after someone figures out how to and submits an acceptable patch - you may be the first to have been inconvenienced by this, it's been a long time since I used a CD. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 10:57:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D56331F1D for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:57:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQBW6vqKz3Rkf for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:57:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MVe9i-1jLsfM46lA-00RZxq; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:57:05 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:57:04 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616125704.76ad3a4d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:V4bDXScpdu5t1A94WDbsporc4mwhwzoHZiLP+Tcm/+xdQgLQJKR 1k0JtzqyYhqPdOOtqqNIAi0c5Ch/PZucqredTZf1YDZVnUvUp/0dtoQAX+pt3qRXeFSlqIv 0o4ywBukSHV+vEyxV0fnXFUeF+zOXwCH+osgL684Tet4IOq6DiofM3/vf8qtYf2N3iKpjhG 6RWorh6wp1UKQOGmMGUtg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:R0PWRzQCM38=:64ZG3+2RuaHUQ4YLdSW/ww FCeeUsREyjRribOBrieeGUh3jHv+1lTKfCcV8XkCjejWqUMNlqhdipCBa/17Qbn8mKytnD6Pf LJVLqbeHj2sUFJt90axE1kFezbuAOCvD62//gw2ZmX+986OaMZlj0vK+zGTJyR+pkQ7+f5Fpl /qGCW1WQGrVGhyWXZpVlqIUGYA/N2rBEGhAs1CF6MUHfKARHj9aOmNfZeT1g7A/uQ+RWqmhFi 7GZGgYb6C98dg8v3umK1O/HeNNOxhhQtAnmRf0G3CBuF0PlIvphTIe/VMabICQrLVJNpxYlp0 +37UOngh/lURPO+UVZWlcw79AeZnBZOxtsJ9bZOYKxk3qhMfOumKMJ9VBfF8o84/TL3iHuLZp SryHVkD66ALL0lOojV+ocbkb0XpH4Fponj3tBs7Sqc5WKATJxsPfA77CTaAFRMmrkeRe4sndP 4i4ES/sPPJtpPDYOdrNVxil+JWW2UAH2iZMFhT0JNDmR7wc3LmT0wYQ+OpJM81/2vMwq8lq1V lLDlQ1BWkS+PKhc7x+0z5tURKWI7YWkXpiP8x9pZjSCPjydwfspyqqthzDW9sOuAsxJxuCtN1 Kg5bZsxl8dnj4iZhd7Rekk8ZzHVfYEw1kHnwCmVXZJgr/CuITWDEa5b91VGuacqih48vLKitJ 7chHpkm/7y5TPs1RNU36Hb0SRVC/JclO6k9+Hkljoq0fBLVFmGd8L/2uXHE9yvPthglT6dpTP NYw3910yxyix+Xj6vZtuA6jXNf+jk2rznPbgYvuR5FQZPX6puCw+q2YIrH7+L9buhZd/QyEPg 49VmENC2OaQpRFuJvvmwtVfjKN9JOqOxEqbqIijPJbJNRpXodYRq3Gw0+dKSbaI0EWmTJ6R X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQBW6vqKz3Rkf X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.65 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.707]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.04)[0.045]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.91)[0.913]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:57:09 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:51:27 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: > > > Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the > > FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record > > this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium > > (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). > > That seems to be an oops, disc1 and disc2 were always supposed to > be for use on CDs. There's always -bootonly but that has to download the > distribution files which may be a problem - if not that's the way to go for > now. The system is not networked, so even my "screen captures" involved reading, walking, and typing. :-) A boot-only solution would not help, and also booting from DVD or USB is not possible, because it doesn't exist. > > When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be > > used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround > > and possibly breaking the result? > > Shortly after someone figures out how to and submits an acceptable > patch - you may be the first to have been inconvenienced by this, it's been > a long time since I used a CD. It's surely possible to omit a few of the packages to reduce the image size. Further software can be installed using the 2nd CD. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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[178.0.144.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 23sm3591740wmo.18.2020.06.16.04.11.05 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:09:50 +0000 (UTC) From: Roderick To: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (BSF 419 2020-04-12) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQVh0lL0z3SMy X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=CYNm74tX; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hruodr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::430 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hruodr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.13 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.0.144.171:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.023]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.913]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::430:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.19)[-0.189]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:11:08 -0000 On Sun, 14 Jun 2020, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying > (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, > but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, > Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard time > on a technical mailing list. Just give up! You forgott WhatsApp. Rod. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:17:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3652C3327C3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:17:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQfJ3yy8z3T7s for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N5n81-1ioUH93sXz-017HMR; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:17:41 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:17:39 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Roderick Cc: Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616131739.d738e5a3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <7018FA7A-32A6-4567-AA5D-1A90FF5FFF6C@kreme.com> <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <082AF774-7886-4E56-8482-768A7FE6E5EF@kreme.com> <20200614093958.678c3c0d@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Qsp4zCwvJF7kQh1xzYQ7f2JlAulk557U208W3UX+0psJjsCqxCV DYrhY0j8jeiSxRqYqGJyyQmG6Brm0VZrPvgCUGMirRylIkXbm2xvypqcgWCOEb+WdiCyzCC lsNrJ7lfl5K7fyz7mL9A0FWJTDV5ycUUMNFnA5ThZKtKfwy37q99FhW7maMWIi91GHO6QXt jX82q1YmuVIQYyR6oyTAw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dlNfygDpByA=:C9YYLDB2SlFIXlLvhENug5 iC7A0ybPTL2/ErtmHycFpg/E1ErQLmHLzGRsDt2ZKn7H2SP9Novlb8a2A3KIn2T1+wFGQHUdl ClSZ0AKBNdNQcY7EaFtHFTu79+ssuuCRKqTwyZWZlvSPX+th9l/Y1An12bOWRi+Oig6uwAZTa Sl/0+FGcDsLCUkHbVOVjhM8FYcKQ/8qaFtuzTFgZCAVHxiIx0z7H/Wu7jpRKiGNd4hmizvTA3 3dFjoZSP/v6TBb3BN0cVsdWYBmGIoYggvyTneleDXPyPGpQe3Zy/qMjE4y4YivlTGPYgBOOpa ftv3r9j9if6CxBcJwauTiuMG8U1c81ssM/pWlwjAtz/wpISVkJxLyjyGNICdgZFiDKihCle9E s2ZhCl0HF+G/nppZfI06h81dwny33B8Xzue+5NJQbhCYwb/HLgzeMOjFC59JDuLPJ96D6Xnzu 7AGJ+ALhuXx2mUv6xu5JzTqnhuIF2VYADtK8Mb+3ZdRC3Ca4bNxUziiaKWwd1FPc+9u+y9Keo QD9WLa9lfRv1qeoBdJMgNOSkZFZ1TMn+c+GEOwNodlDvQZH+0yiYNafMnN0+F0/07Yl/CtCcP Pl3EWCWA5MLbTqhlWHOLuJU4AsYcKtMddO66JYjZKjsA1zF+t861NcxU5WvgkICGM8OGCEFhT UvRPZ2J8uAMhKqVOfU81UADJmTIUQARIuTtrt/+6A3tVLYu78PFq0hrU+JyKfaXkfkcE+fG71 5Vqe+LDUEgCPjilPRCdFAHml1ZGx5Pw2edCo+P4Zdlhm/1+3QeNFBgqbCZWOm6yc7AKib5OjQ GBHLWP+EFqxLqN/+CduY4u5grLm1xCOB+VfiiGlO6hZoYdRdhrC2yri30yNi7u3LUfzasfI X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQfJ3yy8z3T7s X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.73) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.10 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.73)[-0.726]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.50)[0.500]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.92)[0.923]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:17:46 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:09:50 +0000 (UTC), Roderick wrote: > > > On Sun, 14 Jun 2020, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > For those of you who have taken part in this thread saying > > (paraphrasing) "Yes, I know there are long-established conventions, > > but I don't care because I'm above all that", for you there's Zoom, > > Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. You'll always have a hard time > > on a technical mailing list. Just give up! > > You forgott WhatsApp. Belongs to "Facebook" since 2014, so it's implicitely included. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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[174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d140sm14182510qkc.22.2020.06.16.04.12.04 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mQWk4J1hz4Rxn for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:11:53 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/=yJyDozPoBRAJ0e9Q_Oc1dU"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQgk6znKz3TFY X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=K1HXKT2W; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::732 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.61 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.850]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.051]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::732:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:18:59 -0000 --Sig_/=yJyDozPoBRAJ0e9Q_Oc1dU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 03:19:44 -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette commented: >Bullshit it's not relevant now/anymore! > >Please wrap your lines at 75 columns and please use 7-bit ASCII only >without encoding. > >Some of us never got onto the Microsoft-induced insanity bandwagon that >preached that all email messages have to be HTMLized (and thus 10,000 >times more bandwidth consuming that they need to be) and also we didn't >sign up for the notion of having email, spreadsheets and other such >crap be executable... a glaring and obvious security hole. > >I still use the NMH mail client, which dates from the 1980s. It is >plain text only. I have never been infected with anything. That is a choice you have voluntarily made. You have the absolute right to use whatever MUA turns you on; however, you have no right to tell anyone else what software they must use. --=20 Jerry The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering. -- Dr. Who --Sig_/=yJyDozPoBRAJ0e9Q_Oc1dU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7oqPkACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRUbAgArN/cGny78H673cHYDCMfU5sZtbM5Lew3RW8edpq449B+CQ+0Nmjyfrt7 lzUo9kIRHi9RThn8/kcNdfnz3L0uVkATxH0NYL00Y7GrH+MAUNWuY0EUXD8kuKKB z8A5LIYGlHD/Hpn7XtkeKQKCSqKBhqlK36+dfeqJoGwIyOu/OUSTKDGldH+fs4fK LQuGTB4sc90zPEpNxr3GjfXD7PM+ySFxuzM8viu1eIR8MfB7AlditEjOUjdpGdWx zc1CigKu9UFdiY8j8W6+zGbKhUNNXv8pLGAS+jE9VrfbITJgo6hAkuAoJbMeXmYq hRx49EuLUIf0sXlFMpB44yjhH5Ba3g== =2p4+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/=yJyDozPoBRAJ0e9Q_Oc1dU-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:23:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15EA3331B2 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:23:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQnC2sqyz3V6h for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:23:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id n123so10620013ybf.11 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:23:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=fPcG359170zJjEKRnWU3w5ilEzfMXjjF2c6bGtA7j5M=; b=QvSSGlUimUFmcackrw96+z2HoApe/BppjP2r0NwWmvg5ZNkTzMTJfBjEDRUKyosWcV WnR1xsIE3FnvsH9QGwSVZMNgM98rQiToXcUaLZ8JCcY8/L+RPQyu5p8b+2sTKeWuNQBT UJHp0saZ0mtHQerfLBq/fTDeQ6tfifh5hvsRqyyyZsrpEJg7WjN2Sog/TMXksSmkPbBS L8wfaXszKhWp3kVWKaC3tyyFf+WuGOYxk08OLmxocdX7yn1ycVoVIjSmhnPtlJgohUrY vDwox41dYE5iCzW/tBwG0rxb3qYC2HigFvu0Hn1s3dL2+e6o9tJbMykznWAlqTVM/Y2q YeaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=fPcG359170zJjEKRnWU3w5ilEzfMXjjF2c6bGtA7j5M=; b=kKtdoGvNsDl6ojJUdpzPQq6QAaahYWaiLkeYJQt7a2t+OqLqp7wZgjGz+NZcuQnx7z ZxgGfHB6rPWm3yr9DGTWjPUc4Iem1SiIs2sar2P9s55y9ALsdLVvHAmf71V8E8nE7UjD 0HFdaNiersF1fFIBkKSy2Vtp/ZTMC7zC6s0shUVGPv1LH8xhoBp1fDOjR9W7WdTHsqh/ Dex0bUjxbvM5A+c9ZUTPf+U3qa88WoFgShjv1Rqvof2qu+lB7bFEtM2QqhCwgRWZ0skD Lr0faVQZG4aa1IchSnecFrUDMFIJ+QjPS/GqIAGlFkvpqwC/Y7CZ/+tLFk+LbrbSYWm4 CIqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530O9nrbd6uHZJHMhI6D2Xa/KdphG86aoIfy/+jYk4X4lNOhaqd9 A83No2+2qSMNrxb60WiHgnZ0DqwxJy4oLmOBTx6cPbmh X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJweX2Og7WAqlHUBMi6Z240iagkB1LoGw17OiyK8INN/yPqii5nKzHh3vX2aN2gAjyIRILbZ77dSOQRvz3EjuAA= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bd0:: with SMTP id 199mr3375291ybl.329.1592306621959; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:23:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:23:30 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQnC2sqyz3V6h X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; REPLY(-4.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:23:43 -0000 It just amazes me each and every time when this discussion comes up.... You're willing to embrace change, and evolution of new technologies like 10G Ethernet, USB / Mass Storage, CSS, JS, Lambda's JSON, etc... Yet, you want to be stuck in the stone age when it comes to email. Do you still use 360K floppy disks as well? CDs? Things change, embrace it like the rest of the world, or move on. No one is unfortunately going to dictate to the entire world, what they can, and cannot use in terms of a MUA. You're most certainly not going to dictate that to me, and you're most certainly not going to dictate to me how to (or not), send emails. If you want to be stuck in the stone age, then so be it. Feel free to not read my emails if it bothers you that much. -- C From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:30:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0C533346E for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:30:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mQwg4Hh6z3VLG for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:30:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id d27so15150110qtg.4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:30:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=VIOffGdQ2RbeLbGInyAoPwWE4C3SB2q+idfrP1ZHhHs=; b=DhPpOocZZHINoJelFWsLwDBDuaogSA7vAnZioB2ZJZ43JMqblGS7c7uP/ERYgPMH6Q 2jBACxuUjFbIxmJ9ACHuES3BnTPCGquc1YyxJllpu47nWawZ910PGTpSYkXMTQnxI+59 1Z7ENnPZdM9i63uczZzneuuJgFJDa7v8SJuVM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=VIOffGdQ2RbeLbGInyAoPwWE4C3SB2q+idfrP1ZHhHs=; b=pyP+3pNrimvhWwUt5hxwpsHIUrl4t3vTjb+rH1zcxOyYDdktOsAobbkpGpWhzuKvsZ 5NolKSEkpp32+pqsoS9rFgHmhAOmrnSy4tB/U6iV1HIFgjqKoLlOCW1maK+T95XWvzkf UrL6ztI5Y5H1c8nchb8036agaxNKUxsQ8H8V70J764axxDWB6hJU+WtFgkx6ux9FpOVB pESLbiQrWuqurMJ1POdn0fxWYAoTw37JSsqdNUy0UPyu3211tCgZ+3IymVGpEh6FPbhJ QuGOew1X+bojPfSj2QmGGg+geEqdj6vLX/O+j0Xn4IHIzNAaLIFHtefQ7+4kczVHb7bd mPSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532fnaxX5sz5oatXKBaln0BqomxMt27InClB+ODSw6/5dGXFalUF 8qA6yXGiVfuN14YfXhTGXrBP5pgI6mo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwz1szeeh2DhHvjA+VxddB9KtMvpcB3XBoyeJWZ2Qc4xBjWfiYgtgv5/WqKaWo0T/3EXjJiBw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1ab9:: with SMTP id x54mr19972210qtj.371.1592307010108; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v69sm13494799qkb.96.2020.06.16.04.30.08 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mQwb3Czrz4RyS for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-ID: <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/_V7uHmUvdz0ej4K72P0qVS_"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mQwg4Hh6z3VLG X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=DhPpOocZ; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.13 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.42)[-0.415]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.86)[-0.859]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:30:12 -0000 --Sig_/_V7uHmUvdz0ej4K72P0qVS_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: >Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >(here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). Are you referring to: 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso or 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso --=20 Jerry --Sig_/_V7uHmUvdz0ej4K72P0qVS_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7orTgACgkQOHMGOIfe xWT5mQf/QZhRwG7h8CsxNI1b1Mn+0P084DThozy6EiBTdPcluUgF0MXAnz5Z6M05 0SpZjsK6HEGRPsO3YrZ6Ia4WIXLC7hCsFsGgfr/MtEO8hz0XejUatU70wALmDKAi q7jdlHgWc5/iPNXwuMtY6Mu1jRSKngiwTksqbYV2+UKSzFdt0gxy5tuVjd6JMpPX /ryoEghKv0y/eD0xiVMFOzdvtjpFgnfaI0tL6+9hyF6uYViL3AClEq2Az5H0NIUP tyEY0nEu8Ga6Ci6oOOZSGM3BvCKcBLLtLbC3tHLoYAARU0ePLc0x+EWlpyIcM0TR JynAxa7nSGZHk5nrL9pKMPk047C+GA== =67gR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/_V7uHmUvdz0ej4K72P0qVS_-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:37:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879C2333B62 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:37:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mR5b707fz3WGp for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:37:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MplsZ-1j6ZJ90Cpp-00qAU5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:37:54 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:37:53 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:7GSfHX/bMc5jyJVw8AgX3Hcx25xw1uNr15/INT/LNkmXW2Z+H9R Z//J6F/XNoG0gFs0DSfgQAR2i3zWaPYwYAQyDYVyrATiUSPHWbF4l2TKtn/1RFrRpBMrN0s MZfjejAKW+5go8TblGsY3trd5gG3ued8biy5L8zeDeKKD52qi9o7kN3eFEiM6eM+gGeE1wP JIQKzLub8HAdC9TeBOb6A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:miB9gatk0A0=:dXb8qsaQl/Gj8hVq6lBiBy Qf6f5lTvhc0nAi3YUiKCpTElhptduIHb/JwtFLmSfsCHeSnKAM7IdksxEB6HhosTCVct9T1f8 SzAIEEuGgOMlx3S7bojVEJNHrvH1C4mH+aKF4OeXnFtItc3EV5PWWY9hOIyfJJd51L5z98Tko 0EKwAdOmRe1BX9LnD2F8PYiQnn+YBxvj/VXdC3ho/Bcy90nJ1iQ+wE9RE0yRvBWD2alM4G0Uk L11OllZM78LwXDm3jksxiYMZtScdXXVgpKbJYtBGf3KYXo9jm323gPophUxTtS6uO7BGzMHSw 0qMj0KwovTR3v+fYUjDQzfq49ikyxMa35/ge+qrmJAl60ukcFNYk4aquhSC02x6lgrdPK8OQv AxxrjsOQpsB7m+8sOnyAizsLWlznz9Q+L4u7TjL4lsfMo0gUcBFF+vPrKG/sWOUaROMvGiV/y hjtMWaqPfBeQ/2bciN7UxHw0PH7JBg27sZNMeGwp5YaQuT3KKiGBQ9ouVI0g6M9w7zQBIBBlw Av1HJLJOjFk9MgM9PrVgQKulSJ/w9bNhA/AG5KbuvAy7FzoEvsTGKlE0aMfXpzxLadzSzJ6hS Dtlz3NdEgYU8ocgsVGg872R2D4Rh5un1ZvjqIvNZsTxcmqKARVWFn9oWHvF3YuWYtpLXewJfR BQy6BJ4JCLWT19chRmbLk5IkDujqd7K6LzObdFRnp85E90aFa9PFhVthxgW2wBcUkV/mcH+aR fuDfFKDJf2/Kt+FNkzdDg/CnlBum+Le9hdHZTThO3GrdyBDkUvOkiOoYmmpP2yV7cHIgGmZQw 8OBUjDKZAxXw9W6Rbhh7obL38SMrzvuYGqf/tRc/5e24nbD81rVB4kR2OY3zX4GiAd5Q6hu X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mR5b707fz3WGp X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:37:56 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the > >FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record > >this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium > >(here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). > > Are you referring to: > > 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso > or > 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I will have to use. I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. "Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 11:56:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682D2334F84 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:56:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mRVR59d4z3Xp7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:55:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id c185so18789529qke.7 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:55:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=RXdv02xef3klhZUN800pGbrZocvD4f/9UPgQ+L0KtrU=; b=JQaS0wv8Jse0TdAzeR3dY6DSmHTchqgqT+XcDqvsJuICjEgV6VI97e9k1DIz2hQMFH WD/guHulOJGy+2IpBj7NZjKLh3EZraLW1YFQ0e4oLYm6QqeJUkcN6xhCmuITAMyKYuHq cpNB6ij0tX+txqengfkI/2+4CicLjsVc4qkmk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=RXdv02xef3klhZUN800pGbrZocvD4f/9UPgQ+L0KtrU=; b=JiiwwzhRH/IALWpCpw0MDM7SLv95KeUVaYl8fn+YD4my8ObOFtsSI+/PoHiu8Jqcvw gM/lexqNStDSOqFGPopA9PTbPcFQ3wr61R6sXT5HLE36hfveHT426+eDl7dTUPCKN/Bk Zy2cHP171/KlNSw9HAky+zDv5TxBuOR6HijLCC27b6C0J6HBGUL6PGer9654BcXG6wQh U7Bq6j1yRAplzhLKvCcmVb5hc9tzMWP0sCMbIJkMvBPSBAuvwkomj9A3D802Hh31jRS8 tKloqx4+ODH18IR7feulmK1IaExmcFMeFKhfB4t2WQHBLDlS74VUOEMjN0QfEUmA0lb8 sI7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532U2CPb3SnMQAwZ4lTwEL4X4YMz4dplsV1C3HuIMMzlEpxTAc2z 1zkJU4YiQ8yvYGqN6vUFYGN7pAtPTRo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKURtSL0qsMoC1UKp++4W2NOrUZB5CWy+xt6hGB0S7wHT+nLas8Q+/EcM9s2QAfZzEjcb82g== X-Received: by 2002:a37:707:: with SMTP id 7mr18192255qkh.15.1592308558262; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m14sm384889qke.99.2020.06.16.04.55.56 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 04:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mRVN0RBBz4S0L for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:55:48 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/9HRa4KaRoA+F2KZbqB7ne_Y"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mRVR59d4z3Xp7 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=JQaS0wv8; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::732 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.60 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.88)[-0.875]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.07)[0.068]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::732:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 11:56:00 -0000 --Sig_/9HRa4KaRoA+F2KZbqB7ne_Y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:23:30 +0200, Chris Knipe commented: >It just amazes me each and every time when this discussion comes up.... > >You're willing to embrace change, and evolution of new technologies >like 10G Ethernet, USB / Mass Storage, CSS, JS, Lambda's JSON, etc... >Yet, you want to be stuck in the stone age when it comes to email. > >Do you still use 360K floppy disks as well? CDs? > >Things change, embrace it like the rest of the world, or move on. No >one is unfortunately going to dictate to the entire world, what they >can, and cannot use in terms of a MUA. You're most certainly not >going to dictate that to me, and you're most certainly not going to >dictate to me how to (or not), send emails. > >If you want to be stuck in the stone age, then so be it. Feel free to >not read my emails if it bothers you that much. When I was in the Marines, I had a 1st Sargent that liked to shout at the recruits, "SUCK IT UP, BUTTER CUP". He also had a lot of other colorful sayings, none of which are appropriate for this forum. I have always found this quote apropos to those who are stuck in the past. "Things don't go on forever, and the quicker you accept that change is inevitable, the happier you're gonna be." =20 -- Trey Anastasio --=20 Jerry --Sig_/9HRa4KaRoA+F2KZbqB7ne_Y Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7os0QACgkQOHMGOIfe xWQSBAf+L2xGahGYOnu1liONhkjzCJNudH0nbnBpuMsXWNl2ZnfOa97wYc+RXXyk k4zDh565mxReGeC4147oV7DWIH7RhKya5Lm8Xa2lAIQi1CcI+kn6EsPSxTi9tFGi P+FyKpHjo1CsY1YYFB5fIkYwTaw7feEl3lCo4n50gHDPmmhEZsAU88rrhAkN+7DP ZkpFhri4Yv8tEewgn+2xVw2rGPd3EzjliT6nFsD4f/m6SudrH27LiFaBcuNF/12B s9tk4m+yLpvsKkSJTb7476UxC3byyLHhwo9WpfgNKFhlXHFV/2blgIVRRMESIQ0A RY+sdXLI7rhVOVRXQd24fqvQfeTNtA== =2V30 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/9HRa4KaRoA+F2KZbqB7ne_Y-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:04:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A80335ABB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:04:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.75]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mRh23xmQz3Ydm for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:04:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MFK8N-1jenU13tUn-00FlWC for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:17 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:16 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vtspNDvzC09RkZ8xzsc3PDESDPIlsHLJrCR1S07Ns6PEJvpfS07 XQZrO7pBVZC2lxAuMC14RTFG5fgy516nLY/1HBSfhEXy0kr/4d+biKx6/ExjQrAOF9eJBIn Q509XZ1pqevwbBQSxIwAQeW97gsjgTMaOKExWFXRW2hL6GmTVKG5EI2arCMKxDu8CN91Dyv JqCoa4KhLIMBumloHsnDA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:8f088AmOlLs=:+G31/u9414YPveVkIvrkyl CVa90So5I9ddXFkgO6RjX07K30kerxo7MrZ8Axz9CbQA84kWVvLMq62pSI4cjMMmjrAMrgOPg ZXLueBK/Czm/yZrR4ZvaWNI0KEWV1Tk18+cbUZdvx8Qjt+qiRo5sXN+szCZ+R2kXdJF/8ZLGa NQSZ13hph0fQgoeVj8p2Oa5Gm7bqrlx9ZEKSSaOc6p2GELJUmhtj//HtpvZqZOCCdjG/CXRP/ lF5GOnpdHkcqcJWl8yW6/pMOsaldtIXS3kD2fP1Zhzsse4J4noX5vYnpFRwEZjJZ3JSBDdQTD nN+IPXn8gGA76Os7QNDuL6jrdhdML/AkHH0zcZFr9yrtY911ly1McY4EP8EAXz24sLPFuzjKw +OeStaXtztb2fHuYrYIiqzcHDkPAKbV3M3kdN6VAyublkYHfsjSx+vbKwJdwCdB//73JjHbEH zEXnX6DZJkHYLYd50ByOcrfBQmjc8SCfWGZbHOjTPafAJ0M+Hqmj4VMhnza4WM60nPFU9Mxot fYezw+BaGApe6p1vlJUXa6xGr/DkrGWgQz0WEPzg0Ex27SqZ+DlzcovmAjRL5RwWcdWXFmNf6 /rKdMpI0GTrS6R0wdMTOMWfUvBfaAFILwNI21rjV1hK7SS8x8dtOEFVck4ilEVJNGo9KdRThW aey+gngV4+Hy9k9prrted83rGYUuCInEKlTg9mVIpqn/63P/SG4Ghv2HN+j9LlTMo8yae6DMY McKLsQv62q1uUygdzE0Cy32kDd0DtE3dK5+WsMdvFvVCBlxgkjGVC/fC4vHqV+5sqKYU234Ch /s0r/gAQ3OOGN/4/5W5qmdOD2LYlL9UjdrB3xA2g4qxvRuonpNYCpvqHCDRbZlj4T4hhxtX X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mRh23xmQz3Ydm X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:04:19 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:55:48 -0400, Jerry wrote: > When I was in the Marines, I had a 1st Sargent that liked to shout at > the recruits, "SUCK IT UP, BUTTER CUP". He also had a lot of other > colorful sayings, none of which are appropriate for this forum. > > I have always found this quote apropos to those who are stuck in the > past. > > "Things don't go on forever, and the quicker you accept that change is > inevitable, the happier you're gonna be." > > -- Trey Anastasio While this is true in general, one should always keep in mind not to confuse change with improvement: "newer" does not magically imply "better", so educated human judgement is always welcome. The only thing that goes on forever, is inevitable and is the fundamental requirement for all human beings is ... exponential economical growth! :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:11:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF260335F24 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:11:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mRrt2nfPz3ZPK for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:11:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id r18so10706604ybl.5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:11:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pV3WCZkqTx8VMscWFOkUx9TgBUfAA9YOU8+5IZ75AH0=; b=ENOkqFvK3EL0A/SZDa7GaXEIrk+NgodZtZwKq0AY5nBp1xC3wjjPWmhDFcWyGCz5YN zN5YnwmgqUFztcREQaRwMGXCV5RdSih5N+eZZNSihuEgrIPgzeyjf0VXtr2m1bzW2SdG 97sgOiXj+pyZfh1kk7jrGxD0OsJ68OLc9qk+MJg5Tf8ikvri4rDGVeiNzn0OphO8QY6T 3v9mRS7d9PYvdv8WGw/w5xvDwAvcGIPB1ZHjuaGimZYLV/bW2P8hSMm56osC5Zm3yHm4 xEVqV6IuBrV6nXKNbAN55VdOtloDDj8aTgJulUjAohmDBvA+X3o688ud+5YcZKEe70Z6 4slg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pV3WCZkqTx8VMscWFOkUx9TgBUfAA9YOU8+5IZ75AH0=; b=bJYvcHn+yIX+SH0gwFhTWf1XcaLF2GNLgRaSyt4MXCSiMnJspkRaRCKVkoIENBvJ2F 0/I02qZtUYSRYZXcudJDOkreRXC4XsvB2mRKpytRcy975CNWbjWUDhlEFsjhdfZNxrc3 XvNZC+JV4aXbOhUNRusKfyjusguaerEn4tGlcdTAdBw6QVSw0HAlywF+sNd/H4iwR693 aLbONIoBts3dw2mdL7Awdic3I5oDvMotwfw77tE4nijPGKG5Tt1bkoTP+ZDxnIu0S2Dq HaF3A+enaV1PAO8GRwQKcSivpLJvJ8p/lFwX/ziXVKByaEgoZw7hyBJJrTef3vDKYHUz oIVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533CIUmDuv7KBUuLNcQI4eHjIsEX8VlL8nGKVH40r0tCL5n8pYZy b4NV13FIAvYcjvZR0fmuXO4b/+qPxT93WU9iNKPuQw/X X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxV2rf/CYDjvBYw6ErDjlvFfaIQXfcEZj1g+9abBSm1D6RKsuVGypxl0J+nxgKkCJ0CiUdwx/6jzRm3sqF0wXk= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d755:: with SMTP id o82mr3357886ybg.166.1592309517410; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:11:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:11:46 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mRrt2nfPz3ZPK X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ENOkqFvK; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.14 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.06)[-1.057]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.012]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.871]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:11:59 -0000 > > > While this is true in general, one should always keep in > mind not to confuse change with improvement: "newer" does > not magically imply "better", so educated human judgement > is always welcome. > That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Frankly, I am -very- happy we have moved past 76 character width limitations, and text based emails with crappy fonts. Yes, there is risk involved, sure. There are risks involved in -anything- you do online these days... Again, there's means to protect against it. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:20:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017553368AE for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mS325wT9z3bP1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.33.9]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MTiHd-1jJyYj2LHB-00U3AG; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:20:44 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:20:43 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD - Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:SBjF98/WNP6PIGTU6Pb10c37N3wITZnb0gt+Yt/YgI06yAgDSHg G7LCvhazqRRgcXYQpw6p4kElOBrtioYnpwcKzhsd9UZkzXUkFRXz3J11Nr9yMrhk1BZbdJZ wzwcCyrfWfNaYhKESSbx1PozP2TpIAN0U2XLAYpADJ7FTzk8HpfU4/LS3QlxCrFbTO5XCtx Zs3imBOuF+TCHzjsRl7hQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:01gjgiYdceM=:uMTTo4Z/ZTRHS2EdPJVUfC T2M07Fz7jKdGR3iqMsh5PJNUBH1DMhbaZ0JGP55reWQa9Yhpb5vDdHKXqVBRfJNevy6DNULuQ LxLQV8qdPfJKzeIWaEiiqMR01SN0PzAPLCBsVxR2PvxEkIX6nAoq9NN9maQVO3DVAqRkShj6C 29x0C37MVzPGFm4aa9Il1qwMRn01WYX+n8djaiNrHE+Xhg7vZo5jJcgFfSBdBz4WKhv6Atrx7 dXEybABMVg/JalaCPY3eNjrhoak19AD0YRsenLCLyKV51qkCAQsFl04M/C8HIqmcMnHwhXnUz sFUPlQHt2EzZbh0BvE001/+KVH0293FZ6S8dT5blq+HbG0qwqacbixnABNbWFknzdTiaF/Fx0 GUcjXw+xROSKYZhHp+1xHGe6AD76fmcJh54o96KN0iyiwrYN4fLsm2usNBHMGcmPcga3pZu3c bqlpLfRptCaYyWgJatlCXk1JYMxIQ8A/M8W2b2YHYYM3NxoylSn701XQuJRy4p0+OEWMZwGb5 Z58BvgKcwjt81lWV6kiiWsloLOdBe4tsUsYDV0j5MadhIGwTPK3KLzM32F5I0TjIF1kGX8Rcz X0lndLUyepcWSbadgFNiN65MxQR4k345QRYbE4W0MspqcV6cPByex5mDK1lLHz/KwOA7IweSa 2Gl+DwydJpl4igVkGne/S5/vBMAw27Q0QJPyAj5XnxJrMdA+lI0h0AUpPSyvcDLGGS4ZxSQOm ntjfjfSmV8+rDwE74IZG3wcb4vlbzIvQvxFRLnBiWQFvK36b03IhkHe+y5mtS0G46zn2lJkN0 AvkysCMBjjrTlREo4U60L0fLSnduElfUE79KzmjJQ9+OpSrOERD8Y0xnB2iWO7ejBYCNSxD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mS325wT9z3bP1 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.47 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.909]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.33.9:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.10)[0.096]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.88)[0.880]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.135:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:48 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:11:46 +0200, Chris Knipe wrote: > > > > > > While this is true in general, one should always keep in > > mind not to confuse change with improvement: "newer" does > > not magically imply "better", so educated human judgement > > is always welcome. > > > > That is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Frankly, I am -very- > happy we have moved past 76 character width limitations, [...] This I can definitely agree with - advancement in time _and_ improvement. While it doesn't mean anything technical for the message to have short or long text lines, it's the MUAs task to present them to the user in a way that the user wishes. Remember it never was a limitation: you could send mails with long lines from the beginning, it was a _suggestion_ due to terminal width and addition of quoting levels (see term "comb quotes" for possible unwanted results). > [...] and text based > emails with crappy fonts. I don't understand this. It's rather the other way round when you have HTML-based emails that force a specific unreadable font face and font size, and your MUA cannot be configured for a bigger minimum font size. In text mails, it's the _MUA's_ responsibility to offer the best font that the user (!) desires; in text-based MUAs, this responsibility is moved to the terminal emulator. Luckily, both GUI MUAs and terminals today offer you to change the font to whatever you want - and this option has been there for decades. This is, in my opinion, not a problem with the mail (being text), but wuth the MUA (using unusable fonts and settings). Fonts are not a matter of normal text email. They _can_ be a problem with HTML email. (I won't discuss in how far a mail client is supposed to contain a HTML rendering engine, epsecially in the absence of normal multipart "text _and_ HTML" mail generation.) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:20:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD8B3368AF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [198.71.6.79]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mS3653v6z3bG9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [198.71.6.79]) by mail2.nber.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05GCKjcO048304 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Feenberg To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size In-Reply-To: <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> Message-ID: References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-KLMS-Rule-ID: 1 X-KLMS-Message-Action: clean X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Status: not scanned, disabled by settings X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Interceptor-Info: not scanned X-KLMS-AntiPhishing: Clean, 1970/01/01 00:00:00 X-KLMS-AntiVirus: Kaspersky Security 8.0 for Linux Mail Server, version 8.0.1.721, bases: 2020/06/16 03:31:00 #10802899 X-KLMS-AntiVirus-Status: Clean, skipped X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mS3653v6z3bG9 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of feenberg@nber.org designates 198.71.6.79 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=feenberg@nber.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.021]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.71.6.79:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nber.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[198.71.6.79:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.04)[-1.042]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26287, ipnet:198.71.6.0/23, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:20:52 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: ...> >> When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be >> used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround >> and possibly breaking the result? > > Shortly after someone figures out how to and submits an acceptable > patch - you may be the first to have been inconvenienced by this, it's been > a long time since I used a CD. > That is rather disengenuous. Is there any chance a patch that removed some packageswould be accepted? Hasn't the decision already been made that there is no problem? I am unclear on FreeBSD governance, but I don't see any mention of this as a problem on https://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage which does suggest that a patch is not desired. Clearly the issue was known when the ISO was prepared. There must have been arguments for why it was better to go over the portable limit on ISO size than to drop some packages. Without knowing what those arguments were, it would be a waste of his time for Polytopon to pick his least favorite packages to delete. Is there a relevant mailing list where this was discussed? Daniel Feenberg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:22:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D11336BD8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mS5H0CVpz3cMx for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BBBA4E70 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo13-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id orq4kFky45hi for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 06588A4542 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 05GCMaVB093395 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: <9357b967-f022-fb7b-1c3c-c64ed8b5b149@hedeland.org> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:36 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mS5H0CVpz3cMx X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of per@hedeland.org has no SPF policy when checking 64.68.202.10) smtp.mailfrom=per@hedeland.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.47 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[81.228.157.209:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.37)[0.367]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hedeland.org]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.04)[-0.044]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.35)[0.347]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16686, ipnet:64.68.200.0/22, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[64.68.202.10:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:44 -0000 On 2020-06-16 13:37, Polytropon wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: >>> Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >>> FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >>> this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >>> (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). >> >> Are you referring to: >> >> 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso >> or >> 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso > > As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), > the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the > system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I > will have to use. > > I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that > says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, > does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. > "Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) Well, no help for you, but it might be worth noting that FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso is actually 867(!) MB, and that https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/announce.html says: disc1 This contains the base FreeBSD operating system. It also supports booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built packages. Additionally, this can be written to an USB memory stick (flash drive) for the amd64 architecture and used to do an install on machines capable of booting off USB drives. It also supports booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built packages. I.e. a) it is only the base system, no packages that can be removed (though there are sources and other stuff that *could* be) - and b) there is *no* claim that it can actually be burnt to a CD!!! *Perhaps* you could mount the image via md(4), remove/truncate some of the files in /usr/freebsd-dist, and burn a CD from the result. --Per PS From FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-memstick.img: $ ls -s /mnt/usr/freebsd-dist total 548264 4 MANIFEST 76640 kernel-dbg.txz 38592 ports.txz 157568 base.txz 40800 kernel.txz 162400 src.txz 4 doc.txz 60064 lib32.txz 12192 tests.txz From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:22:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E72336CE4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mS5W2VQZz3cQm for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com with SMTP id x16so9331368qvr.3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:22:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=yTWwbw/Kktrxz5vQMLSbL7xYbXjNyYjq6g65xFVJHr8=; b=dr+tx+ndMj9zn4Y3mJBznA3dR/aZl9qYJjsP/BC1KuFJvVrW2nVM2cq//1Uuasa0bl 3V1427z0enQKqv8EOvHCSZO4TjoewkVghe3mDcqJ29y59XYFxae/HKHNmWrgX7RcI3a+ b28R0bx7B7X90HYY1WE0y6F7d5TdPrZ0+9c00= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=yTWwbw/Kktrxz5vQMLSbL7xYbXjNyYjq6g65xFVJHr8=; b=mxbDTU+keC29CrXHSIFt1dCztdPz3qBgEEW+o2DEuyDWing4Crx+551FYJPBh1rO1C JuhpgU+S0Zg35ChB25ObZqzu5xK0jJTaQJAQ3GtDbHycDCO1xbsAh/Rihx4AXJ802JTP Xo73qASOJgxeKaFX3L30SqDwUJ4+snElyCNhJNFUThmgwReJDWgrwQmaYJPXTtJX/JU0 w+LDoamu4KSXb14sawUEaVQZVhk2P35TFODrx6wVHfKj1BBKUtBBbPOsi7+BhHq7Pvh0 NGyplSwF7Pt/zeOQe73F56qLNWVLug2W61lNkVAMCXpnHrrxWJbWsoeYDCnemhndpasq qYwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ljj5qGPSc+eud92dMe2zbqs2icbHmOwFuFHH5cg0Wpjt9y3Pe Z4fR6GxH6rlP/EHEV3sTX1AQ+cpMjdE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzevTAVO6JW+cpkQy2uj2dOiCAWeprd6wT/y9r3oVQdgR40o3nrWLcXXjdnN+Gm9U/2vjOUoA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:134f:: with SMTP id b15mr1884811qvw.208.1592310173904; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g185sm14048485qke.122.2020.06.16.05.22.52 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mS5S02z9z4S1N for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:22:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:22:45 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-ID: <20200616082245.00002dbd@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/+yRqe65O0WeW8bO1BUeFP2R"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mS5W2VQZz3cQm X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=dr+tx+nd; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.77 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.768]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.87)[-0.869]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:22:56 -0000 --Sig_/+yRqe65O0WeW8bO1BUeFP2R Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:37:53 +0200, Polytropon commented: >On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: =20 >> >Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >> >FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >> >this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >> >(here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). =20 >>=20 >> Are you referring to: >>=20 >> 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso >> or >> 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso =20 > >As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), >the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the >system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I >will have to use. > >I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that >says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, >does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. >"Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) I can confirm the problem. I tried writing the disk on a Win 10 machine, and it threw an error that the source would not fit on one l disk. Now, Poly, the price of a DVD drive is minimal. Why not just swap out your antic CD-ROM drive and install a DVD. You don't have to go the Blue-ray route, unless you want to. If, for some reason you cannot fit it into the case, just get an external model. Problem solved. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/+yRqe65O0WeW8bO1BUeFP2R Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7ouZUACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTdfQgAwcp5MpYeycyvoKUZKAZSQkOM8X19k4oVPRyAYb6G57SD7TF9izj8j9YP giRYcR5MTy8IAJXZldNL5Ga/2S92K85pk/g6088Bi/cuK5Ry46LEuNG09rKW4lWK bMDBXvtkrRzr/d5T5CWcitF4Z88N++yw7k1VLCsdDCYQBkkxrwgY7ThK6TGeta8T PQ4+4C6+UzaB9kbLq3CG4/tIjfTw9rmdQOOlPWtrrkYxwrU8uor4ozek+bPK1F5P te1wTUzBqN0XJEjZ90fhhK3yqniH/LhmfOvSwCggchOnJjnGbzZjjSrhIR6gH5vv 3jTCWri31biifL8jD78Q2s61fJj4SA== =73Eb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/+yRqe65O0WeW8bO1BUeFP2R-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:28:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA2083372B1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:28:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mSD76TV6z3cqj for ; 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RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:28:40 -0000 > > > > [...] and text based > > emails with crappy fonts. > > I don't understand this. It's rather the other way round > when you have HTML-based emails that force a specific > unreadable font face and font size, and your MUA cannot > be configured for a bigger minimum font size. In text > mails, it's the _MUA's_ responsibility to offer the best > font that the user (!) desires; in text-based MUAs, this > responsibility is moved to the terminal emulator. Luckily, > both GUI MUAs and terminals today offer you to change the > font to whatever you want - and this option has been there > for decades. This is, in my opinion, not a problem with > the mail (being text), but wuth the MUA (using unusable > fonts and settings). > > Fonts are not a matter of normal text email. > > They _can_ be a problem with HTML email. > > (I won't discuss in how far a mail client is supposed to > contain a HTML rendering engine, epsecially in the absence > of normal multipart "text _and_ HTML" mail generation.) > https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example of what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for example, which has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, as even -more- scrolling would be required. We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions run at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) - we're way past that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and down to read your message, I could have seen your entire message in one screen without the need to scroll up and down. What's the most efficient? I guess that's a matter of opinion too. I hear what you are saying, and I am by no means suggesting sending a 200kb email, with 10mb of HTML embedded in it either, but we are WAY past, 80 col, 25 rows... It would be interesting to see how 80x25 actually looks on today's say, 34" monitors (or whatever the entry level monitors are these days) -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:50:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9041A337C10 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mShz5pXsz3fQr for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hruodr@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id l12so21319211ejn.10 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=PJBdzJL1duogtsvnAjVT/N41hTLLDYmbyHQGarq8OKA=; b=lLkc1Ppt0nU+NYYC0dvUgpv5cq7Lq94DTych6EUvceUeJBxWi4oJbjR0HDHFrhzX47 GGVi4yQoxHqp0kmV5OUv+OcBCcos7sy2JGqAJjw5O1ORCpDJRAxnC++vvoVPtQLdNgTx X29Dq1H+7VszPcDTUOt9jN9iEmb8ZdbTA2+AjyrdOpPhmDS6KyU3loGPmOkvZ7huLBvn LLk3ortUFUnSay4nmO4JThFyMGLm4aWwLkBhjKNisSjtl5w2rZ0K0XpIU2Lgo+1qmxzh QBSiEDNwbaxrM82tgWT/eRRbvMpoBvIrsWDiVJBDB1rlVbo77XBpOcdiunCB0K+O6PE/ DUFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=PJBdzJL1duogtsvnAjVT/N41hTLLDYmbyHQGarq8OKA=; b=C5BLAWxdbd/iXEDkFnk2n8/+meZDxsPwtJ0lX6f6hWojVhbjYn3giqW82kMbbGjdYz tDOJagTyeIf6OCH/Xl6qSO0BESsYAU1tNuUKtivzuMmwPNcdomknCJnD9yY2C7TyFLDQ Jl53+VZSwn2rwhkvlngFSsyrKLVRnfCpVwkVZM4eZlnrL7RNICn+fKo3zQ3zsceLgEnJ SM8qMVcxwCVgauM8IyHQy7prCIfrvOLgjZf8j2cv2WxrnpKKlQ30JSItFpZs8i3TLAvp Y5c8cmhg67H3GWAh+MVcgwlE3aURmOD/H7FrPT636NQKR1mvpaBV0rnouco9urm1CNtg DDBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533NucTi7IV9gAvV4eRck2GTk6StG3MRaIYchNqe2/K0IF4gi8aI R/dLYmLm7ReELJMPgDtWZZJKigzRK4g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPh1c2rr4rYnnVGlA4SziGRRk1JpnZZk+VkttK0WXs89jWJj12+oUZtU//mAkNjGd6CUDaTA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:468e:: with SMTP id a14mr2593567ejr.124.1592311809791; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fbsd.fritz.box (dslb-178-000-144-171.178.000.pools.vodafone-ip.de. [178.0.144.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fw16sm11061804ejb.55.2020.06.16.05.50.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:48:52 +0000 (UTC) From: Roderick To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: "Kevin P. Neal" , "@lbutlr" , FreeBSD Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd In-Reply-To: <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: References: <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (BSF 419 2020-04-12) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mShz5pXsz3fQr X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=lLkc1Ppt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hruodr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::62c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hruodr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.0.144.171:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::62c:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.52)[-0.517]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.028]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:12 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > In message <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org>, you wrote: > >> T24gV2VkLCBKdW4gMTAsIDIwMjAgYXQgMTE6MDk6NDNQTSAtMDYwMCwgQGxidXRsciB3cm90ZToK >> PiBPbiAxMCBKdW4gMjAyMCwgYXQgMTE6NTQsIGRvdWcgPGRvdWdAZmxlZGdlLndhdHNvbi5vcmc+ >> [...] > Bullshit it's not relevant now/anymore! > > Please wrap your lines at 75 columns and please use 7-bit ASCII only > without encoding. > > Some of us never got onto the Microsoft-induced insanity bandwagon that > preached that all email messages have to be HTMLized (and thus 10,000 > times more bandwidth consuming that they need to be) and also we didn't > sign up for the notion of having email, spreadsheets and other such > crap be executable... a glaring and obvious security hole. > > I still use the NMH mail client, which dates from the 1980s. It is > plain text only. I have never been infected with anything. There are some users here writing Emails with body base64 coded, not even quoted printable, and perhaps they are not even aware of it. The mail "standards" are full of casuistic, the MUAs became very "smart" and take decisions for the user. I realy would prefer more simpler standards and demand more formating from the user, but who will impose order if even the biggest companies are promoting disorder? In any case, this discussion has little to do with FreeBSD. Perhaps the FreeBSD forum is a better place to speak about it. Rodrigo From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:50:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9B8337DAD for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mSjR1ZFMz3fTv for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id x189so12620642iof.9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WRNYRSaXkeQkqgWTScrLwnd0k6Y2aM1TIsv7XugPOjU=; b=HU9/pIpjQxFMsn0ZypvTdDZ52dyh9GTO/gLpeb2VJcBugRgmHQstHcvUQ4+hEKfzJS 1kQ8BbHwPMNNyri5I6ICfbVaenLriIjsYv2a9bgdlSQNJhMqJozpwWTl3sPHCo98dLJv ua07Hxq3QL/wq3DPJv54TLCqusVR/WXhRxs8UDTBwVNCwxlstOn4jhge/PeUJqZYwkjr ySA1vBOCXtIa+BkK8+SmZ2QvbDHecTgXSK9ojz7/J0BJdCUiQb6mT9Jr5sPeojH9xrcy Wwp0+S0m4I9/Wv2u3wiUJ0XlZDWsl15Rn9QhDcsfKpJsK23L/JUnub7CT2xRWnu8gaT+ HkRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WRNYRSaXkeQkqgWTScrLwnd0k6Y2aM1TIsv7XugPOjU=; b=dWNd4OgAXamcCSQOae00GgsNgAOXZ+0hfJLyZqdf/qoAlS9sSTIMmmFbAWV8pdbTDc uMx90BideQMgt9HXEpIVfjEywilTflJaVErbdgTrwcSnnYxJsYN1fYu7n3lg8al3DCsx fuF+ZGWIHglY/KABZxWnRFxg8Yza9hBFOX1RSjIGtr9YKwmAbPJwEha2+Pd5D/TTXOvz aieHCWJDumWvQrMhaKR/8UXEk7J6J7/B6ZdVRNkRNl3nYT7Rv++k3dxui4jNicuaqZ71 mHlnT5TnE7UnLFwi5oYCClvFkY3d7nARb6xs31cwPqitnMLyLh/nNwwneYTcjbWPzu/g VXsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531HuIaRQq7RwOcclYbTHM4pdf5YXU5k17jNXqV5Eh6FY+80+HTI VHoo9jEA2P2Jnti3NwPehXsPn8pDHTPZ/AcWYRkJJKYm X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzGjXfmysjOhqpBvBs6VuVMCPh69c0DgmsxMOdZZBG8CvzYY60XcbWTr9PVukyE5C+g7LmmWrAvrp8AhSVsbiE= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:1448:: with SMTP id 69mr2408516iou.83.1592311834087; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:50:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:50:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mSjR1ZFMz3fTv X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=HU9/pIpj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.52 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.040]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.49)[-0.485]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:50:36 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:28 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example of > what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for example, which > has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, as even -more- > scrolling would be required. > Reading the original message on gmail was no problem for me nor unreadable in any way (you must have your gmail configured in some f'ed up way!). > We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions run > at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) - we're way past > that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and down to read your > message, I could have seen your entire message in one screen without the > need to scroll up and down. > Maybe if you have *perfect* eyesight you could see it on one screen! (Not everyone is 18 and has vision better than most fighter pilots). And you might be wrong about the row/col count of some/most SSH (X based terminal apps) for example on a 1920x1080 monitor (27") my 50 year old eyes need 37x135 (not that much larger than 25x80) when using a xfce terminal, the default font size is unreadable even with 1.75 diopter reading glasses (which are not needed if I use the above resolution). Before you go crazy about how everything can be done via a GUI I have one question: are you a programmer or a sysadmin? (if not then you have no idea of how useful a command line is vs. the GUI). > What's the most efficient? I guess that's a matter of opinion too. > If it is unreadable then it is clearly no efficient. > I hear what you are saying, and I am by no means suggesting sending a 200kb > email, with 10mb of HTML embedded in it either, but we are WAY past, 80 > col, 25 rows... It would be interesting to see how 80x25 actually looks > on today's say, 34" monitors (or whatever the entry level monitors are > these days) > Entry level from my local computer superstore (microcenter) is 25" and I am sure I would have an even lower resolution there. So no we are *NOT* way past 25x80, you are just being dense and an elitist to say otherwise. > -- > > Regards, > Chris Knipe > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:56:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A99D337C7C for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mSrd5nnhz3gXW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:56:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id n123so10749693ybf.11 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:56:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QDlHyjPTTYKRnn/7QBSiV9KU+PXmtQQgiVknS29OjPE=; b=Z+obFJwqIXsEfvYQ+TWLqvIN9HTqHcLGLDm3h+JjgBL5hUi1jZcLt79VSxhwSXQgA8 h9C+3BiVN8MaWJeetfO1z2D1/iX2VgcwzvwBF2ULnPgFc59+c5PF75yymEvinew6gCUH 9JMJVVUtMiJiM6PNXvRIlPOoPJzU1yaSRta6pcqAjewUMJBgDnDruEo/26ZYnknC5acP CLKCeXBw10uoK4kzGqndGuIcB9LbDkFOc++hJJjQb5ueSj8XcaL7SusLszV2uR+74ma6 WsOsWEavxaTUuSh0Cdd7g1asOeFQPp4feJ3zPeOM/9U3KoRd9UZKJBTHWTGXJRN1ljxY 8pIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QDlHyjPTTYKRnn/7QBSiV9KU+PXmtQQgiVknS29OjPE=; b=Q1W0LhbOdfEFcTK09Qwo4wsHkaTnSIFZBVByYkzRGYnJNgam6J1SpbuTTIh0DeiTNm mVEOXu4An5YadubCNpRohVjTjphUaviiSh/S/FfjwMFhah3I11bDJptmha9erVy5c0f0 p8vbT9KhsGCANCVtbRFieObNNPWYY5g8ZXzfdCSHYwfpXfAx+XqD2u6aGVW997k9Ormy Nh5blO+VusbdgKirr4cN+/yVEQCznwGrf1wArdVzgVG0+dVo+QyjEEWzLylXUodxHHRZ wlaN1XhrfeL6a+wqMSEZsu6yXhoDyH7/fEO/Q3Own4V65uwZyhp2Wzni8J9UzbwFSBm8 3BeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5321FIgMkFfGZ8lr3EjR3jteWi7yumKV7O6ftsQgnXoXrffqPzom VXbNw8XzOG9ap77Z8NBfACH0iUv7qUSW/1A49djtPQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx/dPeaXiNphTvLgRQhCizD2ZMPUyeyRShpFA86FL52mefZQ4sYtiVKIuP51X6QHMdxnkvDXrhV9PX+2/pvjGU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bcc2:: with SMTP id l2mr3629804ybm.154.1592312208513; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:56:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:56:37 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mSrd5nnhz3gXW X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=Z+obFJwq; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.69 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.46)[-0.456]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a:from]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:56:52 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:50 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:28 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > >> https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example of >> what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for example, >> which >> has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, as even -more- >> scrolling would be required. >> > > Reading the original message on gmail was no problem for me nor unreadable > in any way (you must have your gmail configured in some f'ed up way!). > Never in my life, changed a setting in gmail - so that's how it is displayed by default. Don't blame me, blame gmail. I never changed anything. > > >> We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions run >> at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) - we're way past >> that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and down to read your >> message, I could have seen your entire message in one screen without the >> need to scroll up and down. >> > > Maybe if you have *perfect* eyesight you could see it on one screen! (Not > everyone is 18 and has vision better than most fighter pilots). And you > might be wrong about the row/col count of some/most SSH (X based terminal > apps) for example on a 1920x1080 monitor (27") my 50 year old eyes need > 37x135 (not that much larger than 25x80) when using a xfce terminal, the > default font size is unreadable even with 1.75 diopter reading glasses > (which are not needed if I use the above resolution). Before you go > crazy about how everything can be done via a GUI I have one question: are > you a programmer or a sysadmin? (if not then you have no idea of how useful > a command line is vs. the GUI). > Well if we have to get personal, I am 40 years old, psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis affecting my eyesight, with glasses. My monitors run at their default resolution of 1920x1080 and I have zero issues seeing anything. Maybe you should go for an eye test, and get some glasses? PS: I do sysadmin, networking (my full time profession), as well as programming. Been doing so for 20+ years actually. > Entry level from my local computer superstore (microcenter) is 25" and I > am sure I would have an even lower resolution there. So no we are *NOT* > way past 25x80, you are just being dense and an elitist to say otherwise. > And in typical FreeBSD mailing list etiquette, now we get offended and start slandering people. Nice discussion, I'm done now. Have better things to do than enter into personal rants and arguments. PS: You are the *EXCEPTION*, not the *NORM*. -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 12:58:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42343381A1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:58:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mStH0PZrz3gv8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:58:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id j10so20657131wrw.8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:58:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=38j++3xdpjNlH40BU1U6FwHTtsyvGcYcPBFheq0u0bs=; b=OmmXqlmlIClwUxUJ97o/bMYlZSvMaZq9kXMI/iE7IGTDW84NaVZWw9c0FdTdWQp0Df GAbd3Gh1g5kgrxnp/lY3gCeAEKqzEEMDtm+2z/1xGdsamJvQkB+oPhcasc8EmLeknzdI J0tvjVdufpugWoywEQhuu6z4wfh6RyZBDLqlupzIPuXLBCJQrB6dgadXaYCxIYRaZCGw /3RIX+vP+ndpxILzbEAXQEwl+8DSuPWUwp/plgoBHBCuOrxihaKw8u5dwSu0Di+i3Lmk Vw97YEchP7xzIlq7Qn23FmWHv31DZKo6j6NvZvWHJW1g+nKrZiNW8yk0W44YSx7LsL0J Y37A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=38j++3xdpjNlH40BU1U6FwHTtsyvGcYcPBFheq0u0bs=; b=LAnlqv7+OunifMHBALmlE6HA5VM909ujsLX3esMg70cNf15IK/C5NOfIP+h/tjwlbC PMpvempmjSAFypaBeDUje0/z/Eg3mJ4SCsJrPmoaEcKicZDUENDexqIh9x/s1hHpzuLI Pu3575hk4yoFhw3yI4Q/flggop6pgR5Up31easwxiIoGR6bL890L7hdsQuqwkVbbtUZn O2ORpuxebSyCJZ1+BEPLwRr2/w/OMZNoEua02Ui0tVSuJ9mpW5HrCx9DnhmGHDI2+k0x p6Vrepie+gg4YvbFlfHm0Px8g7ImlS+k91oGLtZ5vPWRg3Z0x0/lUw2/7eethnNls8wa zvBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KQu3z4HeEOY+cuQ9GR1r8NxocMSoJatJDNRhCR8T525rOzwiA hoXriNkn7gohVdT7OE3HtlDrpYzqsLAS78LIX/R/+Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwWPK2YQiiLteozN6dIM+iwARUlyFPdL1H9xiDFu99OemEx6SNdL6zZmOB9Bc+xPRWessyov1CnFiR0dr5OENk= X-Received: by 2002:adf:c98a:: with SMTP id f10mr2943638wrh.329.1592312292461; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 05:58:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:57:06 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe , "Ronald F. Guilmette" Cc: FreeBSD - Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mStH0PZrz3gv8 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=OmmXqlml; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::432) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.971]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.481]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::432:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:58:16 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:23 PM Chris Knipe wrote: > It just amazes me each and every time when this discussion comes up.... > > You're willing to embrace change, and evolution of new technologies like > 10G Ethernet, USB / Mass Storage, CSS, JS, Lambda's JSON, etc... Yet, you > want to be stuck in the stone age when it comes to email. > > Do you still use 360K floppy disks as well? CDs? > > Things change, embrace it like the rest of the world, or move on. No one > is unfortunately going to dictate to the entire world, what they can, and > cannot use in terms of a MUA. You're most certainly not going to dictate > that to me, and you're most certainly not going to dictate to me how to (or > not), send emails. > > If you want to be stuck in the stone age, then so be it. Feel free to not > read my emails if it bothers you that much. Just my "dwanascie groszy" - yes I still do use 360K floppy, I even work on cassette adapters with my friends so the data source is pure analog, I love my Atari, yes we create all sorts of wild extensions to that old nice 8-bit machines (Stereo Audio, SD card, Bluetooth, Ethernet, WiFi, even FPGA).. I also use CD-ROM (my nickname is CeDeROM heh) but that does not prevent me from using BD-DL 50GB disks.. also I sometimes use MUTT shell email client so I fully understand the MUA compliance.. it is just about respecting standards. It is the difference between adding EXTENSIONS versus imposing MODIFICATIONS / ALTERATIONS. The reason I choose FreeBSD as my OS of the choice is because it really has and keeps the Unix spirit of coherence, minimalism, and versatility, while new features show up without putting everything upside down all the time and it clearly shows this approach is possible and works fine especially when it comes to long term maintenance. This is what makes this OS and its community unique and so much different from the others nowadays. Sure if someone likes bleeding edge they choose Linux, if someone need quick results Windows is out there, and for nice looking Unix there is macOS. Apples and Oranges. All other platforms seem to be already tainted by "change is good" and "enforcing changes" ideologies, which _we_don't_want_here_. FreeBSD does not seem to be for everyone, but everyone is free to try it out and make his/hers opinion about (not) (choo/u)sing it. If someone asks to use ASCII 80-char wide long text here then for sure there is a rational reasoning for that, because that is the minimal possible set necessary for communication, otherwise the message would be ignored as unreadable, and the decision is on the sender side. Have a good day folks, stay true to yourself, choose whatever you like, stay free, and stop forcing anyone to do anything, imposing ideologies here is futile, we do not care about them, there are better places to do things like that, we have so much more interesting things to focus/create/build :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:16:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B63E338D93 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:16:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49mTH32pmCz401W for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:16:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.140.222]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3DD7C4E6A5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:16:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> <9357b967-f022-fb7b-1c3c-c64ed8b5b149@hedeland.org> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:16:07 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9357b967-f022-fb7b-1c3c-c64ed8b5b149@hedeland.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTH32pmCz401W X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.51 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.222:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.87)[0.869]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.34)[-0.340]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.88)[0.880]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:16:16 -0000 On 6/16/20 7:22 AM, Per Hedeland wrote: > On 2020-06-16 13:37, Polytropon wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: >>> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: >>>> Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >>>> FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >>>> this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >>>> (here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). >>> >>> Are you referring to: >>> >>> 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso >>> or >>> 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso >> >> As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), >> the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the >> system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I >> will have to use. >> >> I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that >> says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, >> does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. >> "Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) > > Well, no help for you, but it might be worth noting that > FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso is actually 867(!) MB, and that > https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/announce.html says: > > disc1 > > This contains the base FreeBSD operating system. It also supports > booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built > packages. > > Additionally, this can be written to an USB memory stick (flash > drive) for the amd64 architecture and used to do an install on > machines capable of booting off USB drives. It also supports > booting into a "livefs" based rescue mode. There are no pre-built > packages. > > I.e. a) it is only the base system, no packages that can be removed > (though there are sources and other stuff that *could* be) - and b) > there is *no* claim that it can actually be burnt to a CD!!! Disagree. The name plainly says "CD", nobody should re-define plain English words. Even more: by continuity, this always was meant for burning CDs. The size of image exceeding standard restrictions is really annoying, and ideally should not be tolerated as "released" by self respected organization. This is just my opinion. I as person attempt to apply this to what I do. Valeri > > *Perhaps* you could mount the image via md(4), remove/truncate some of > the files in /usr/freebsd-dist, and burn a CD from the result. > > --Per > > PS From FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-memstick.img: > > $ ls -s /mnt/usr/freebsd-dist > total 548264 > 4 MANIFEST 76640 kernel-dbg.txz 38592 ports.txz > 157568 base.txz 40800 kernel.txz 162400 src.txz > 4 doc.txz 60064 lib32.txz 12192 tests.txz > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:18:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD1D338BEB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:18:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTKx3xK8z40GM for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:18:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id x189so12722781iof.9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:18:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ijvEIFUkdQ7ty5G4JLuTrf40ChEIfiawqO5eYJDolZs=; b=V0XSYneRFUFNCt5XxvqqjtUlMJeOLJCC+IUJIAI1S5a3LlkcJcndByYRuvOPu0q8kF EWFVibvlHddBMvGXqoDIyvSiNRXw/d8W8Om08jDp9h7NlGBNCxc332xMcxkfXfKDXUQH igBu3FED85jE0iGfubfQIfeOBPTekxIQmy0eAV3/lfpfeHgdeME1BUql1exqio1kmUxb HFYCiJg7YedYfXna8gCwL3DrWCa1wWPmavVheVbwZOj/g2aiqEZNI8z0fvQP+2NwmHX7 ClzjRZe89qIOgJ9tpnhkz0X5h+PvUCvxTu8sDg+2EacPsPHmg1mwWs/rUE2NvSBUdyPx opzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ijvEIFUkdQ7ty5G4JLuTrf40ChEIfiawqO5eYJDolZs=; b=A5fqVIi8Q39GOd5ApJs8r6IWJCpUdGzoeds4MhL+AKPQDbc+pR9Xf8ec9PKm9s16W3 SBeTA+T1CSV87diiAkzy1LXz4WSNuhe/rRh4kjxabtgB+Tu81xmAZ/S5HhzeW3NugdWH NxixqLyCP8duNnN6IiK+uC3pDE8L4j+JOzvAn1AGNns/BGvI18w8WakScsXKAcQvmRfx WmV4PeeE5loMMyCfyqtbYO9smPxlPb4vPwPquW9I9Jfa+dfqDSyq2f7YMbdvczG5aWzZ WOPBX39FeiVMr9IUF+G2dtnSotTzrk85ZgMMvlmebkVrkz8n8XcbmsHKcUxDUs0HDBVo fB5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530u3K1f7y74LNev4r3JBd++Zk548PiowxC40YPTitbYhW2yf7BE 0mFmUISOZRWIfHmCf7J31YhbXlyowOma6MsD0yk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxEsFlD6FZkgQQmDlZEckrbcWLsk/YI6F3yNSYnn7XFWSmtY6/XNwnh0Y2sEoby4RWP8vW4lgYZv6wO4ZBpSr4= X-Received: by 2002:a02:6a26:: with SMTP id l38mr25766120jac.60.1592313524358; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:18:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:18:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTKx3xK8z40GM X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=V0XSYneR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.58 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.040]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.54)[-0.543]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:18:46 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:56 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 2:50 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:28 AM Chris Knipe wrote: >> >>> https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example of >>> what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for example, >>> which >>> has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, as even -more- >>> scrolling would be required. >>> >> >> Reading the original message on gmail was no problem for me nor >> unreadable in any way (you must have your gmail configured in some f'ed up >> way!). >> > > Never in my life, changed a setting in gmail - so that's how it is > displayed by default. Don't blame me, blame gmail. I never changed > anything. > Then if you don't like narrow messages you can always zoom in ;-) But seriously you are complaining about something that is beyond trivial to customize (for example control-mouse wheel is your friend in most browsers and not just for gmail but for other sites, some need to be zoomed and other need to be zoomed out... almost no one makes the right guess for font sizes and such on the web). > > >> >> >>> We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions >>> run >>> at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) - we're way past >>> that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and down to read your >>> message, I could have seen your entire message in one screen without the >>> need to scroll up and down. >>> >> >> Maybe if you have *perfect* eyesight you could see it on one screen! (Not >> everyone is 18 and has vision better than most fighter pilots). And you >> might be wrong about the row/col count of some/most SSH (X based terminal >> apps) for example on a 1920x1080 monitor (27") my 50 year old eyes need >> 37x135 (not that much larger than 25x80) when using a xfce terminal, the >> default font size is unreadable even with 1.75 diopter reading glasses >> (which are not needed if I use the above resolution). Before you go >> crazy about how everything can be done via a GUI I have one question: are >> you a programmer or a sysadmin? (if not then you have no idea of how useful >> a command line is vs. the GUI). >> > > Well if we have to get personal, I am 40 years old, psoriasis, rheumatoid > arthritis affecting my eyesight, with glasses. My monitors run at their > default resolution of 1920x1080 and I have zero issues seeing anything. > Maybe you should go for an eye test, and get some glasses? > Just did, a few months ago, and except for a slight case of farsightedness nothing wrong with them. The doctor said it was completely normal for eyes to lose their ability to quickly shift through different size objects and text as they age (the lense is 100 times less elastic at 50 then at 20 and 10 less elastic then at 40). > > > >> Entry level from my local computer superstore (microcenter) is 25" and I >> am sure I would have an even lower resolution there. So no we are *NOT* >> way past 25x80, you are just being dense and an elitist to say otherwise. >> > > And in typical FreeBSD mailing list etiquette, now we get offended and > start slandering people. > Anyone who brags about how someone elses tech is "too old" is being elitists (not everyone has deep pockets and/or works for a large organization such as us freelancers). > > PS: You are the *EXCEPTION*, not the *NORM*. > Not according to my doctor who says my eyes better than average for a 50 year old. Also since I help out with teaching a few CS classes (as an unpaid TA) at the local university I have noticed most of the 20 something students also increase the font size from the default (not as much as me but about 20% increase). So I don't think I am out of the norm (i.e. not more then one standard deviation from the mean). > -- > > Regards, > Chris Knipe > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:22:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268A93390A8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:22:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTQ721pzz40YW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:22:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592313743; x=1594905743; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=SPjnB+tucWx38oCJvKG1iuB/IC/jCMn0R+Byv5tHXYo=; b=NrzMlbom5xnHZrONHv7parGUtY1QFau3IN2YhNLdAKf4MDW2rISRhBL1vJhXEFEjC2+uOVwFJS2ff3iXiBPj2NWlI/ypO0QBbfMOJOORudw3pQeIt5fSO4aLem1QtT74tUrcLazy3vf7Ii3toB2yvEHrt0wrDlHQWupM28UZ2L0= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA4NDk0ZDAuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:22:20 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:22:19 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jlBXe-000BEK-BY; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:18 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:18 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Daniel Feenberg Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size Message-Id: <20200616142218.7e52e13710955a096b930573@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616115127.53797f2bdea77fcbe032b4bf@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTQ721pzz40YW X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=NrzMlbom; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.881]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c200008494d0.d1af8f9c2ec8e84db9d3bc1bfc9a5ac5@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:22:25 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Daniel Feenberg wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200 > > Polytropon wrote: > > ...> > >> When will FreeBSD supply a CD image file that can actually be > >> used with normal CD media again without requiring a workaround > >> and possibly breaking the result? > > > > Shortly after someone figures out how to and submits an > > acceptable patch - you may be the first to have been inconvenienced by > > this, it's been a long time since I used a CD. > > > > That is rather disengenuous. Is there any chance a patch that removed > some packageswould be accepted? I'd expect a patch on foot of a bug saying disc1 no longer fits on a CD would at least be considered. > Hasn't the decision already been made that there is no problem? I am That is not clear to me, the size could easily have crept over without anyone noticing given that CDs are near obsolete. It may well take a bug to draw attention to it. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:29:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD2B3392BE for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:29:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qt1-x82f.google.com (mail-qt1-x82f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTZ16JBYz40XD for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:29:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id g18so15388318qtu.13 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:29:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=/zQKf0qiooJARBi7W7PffjFwNvdnpl5XtRrREOT3NvU=; b=WdHZZTpReVwJU6WVmsFYcshdEk5PH2p3KVYVCPJNkH6IE+kshqaqw43TTwEzfGA2l3 D9mUIzxMKekm2bWScOxDfhoglFP85ySe+Q19FeMt4nk26m2ooICYf3vcugoqEZ9BlJZ/ s4o8E3Fu/eGeR28Zrh713tnWWJlpToRFMbFMA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=/zQKf0qiooJARBi7W7PffjFwNvdnpl5XtRrREOT3NvU=; b=Z4pU/U/JYLN4D13Pp7oqpVHlNcao8KvzYG86ACY2539lhz2M+JGMLMRchnEx/ugMoR a6Hs0Da58Ud6w2pCH5+53pDPqdT1Pbjt9nxKT/SEhxyylmG5gkfcjzfWyP2SOpAPrwDx jgysa29+spYrG3lOpLO92JCZVnDrXBNdvQtTOOrUnZxwyY4ajZbUt5JaluFvLsaEy3eA 6gJvhA9gx5SidD89kqu1BH6zhQ0ZjABk1SLGeW3Drt3Zp5abW3SgyX6hp1SZFYw5ll4O 1WjrdinKZ/JviFyDcoHMebVjZj+w9zVsgNyJvbkkaIeo7WKRMOvv/q6aLq9PfjoVi/rm aNjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531h9yLnsUE8YMydXjckcWjTEs63ET8eEPSVgKAGYw73NiQAVS8y pZKreYQ/4VKKAkTUZHq9ODQPDyF8ifE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8EY26jgVz6aO6eMEmizZA4UaqPCinLWC7L6jtacS0CGvxXEOSvLKb1Zu9g7xni2xetOY00w== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4243:: with SMTP id r3mr21890247qtm.225.1592314152266; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x43sm15498526qtk.70.2020.06.16.06.29.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mTYw5vl1z4S6L for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:29:01 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/.c/XivGW/7e1EeY=EFa6afr"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTZ16JBYz40XD X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=WdHZZTpR; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.95 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.58)[-0.584]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.88)[-0.876]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:29:15 -0000 --Sig_/.c/XivGW/7e1EeY=EFa6afr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 08:50:22 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:28 AM Chris Knipe >wrote: > >> https://imgur.com/a/eW01Zc2 Your own message - a very good example >> of what's wrong with it. Straight from gmail. In outlook (for >> example, which has a narrower reading plane), it will be even worse, >> as even -more- scrolling would be required. >> =20 > >Reading the original message on gmail was no problem for me nor >unreadable in any way (you must have your gmail configured in some >f'ed up way!). I just read that message in both Gmail and Outlook, the program not the web site, and it presented itself quite well. >> We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH >> sessions run at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) >> - we're way past that as well... Whilst I now have to scroll up and >> down to read your message, I could have seen your entire message in >> one screen without the need to scroll up and down. >> =20 > >Maybe if you have *perfect* eyesight you could see it on one screen! >(Not everyone is 18 and has vision better than most fighter pilots). > And you might be wrong about the row/col count of some/most SSH (X > based terminal >apps) for example on a 1920x1080 monitor (27") my 50 year old eyes need >37x135 (not that much larger than 25x80) when using a xfce terminal, >the default font size is unreadable even with 1.75 diopter reading >glasses (which are not needed if I use the above resolution). >Before you go crazy about how everything can be done via a GUI I have >one question: are you a programmer or a sysadmin? (if not then you >have no idea of how useful a command line is vs. the GUI). I am not a doctor; however, I am quite aware of how detrimental to your health a projectile fired into your skull can be. Your equivalenced of profession to knowledge is a fallacy. Many people study other job skills although they have no intention of even entering the field actively. >> What's the most efficient? I guess that's a matter of opinion too. >> =20 > >If it is unreadable then it is clearly no efficient. > >> I hear what you are saying, and I am by no means suggesting sending >> a 200kb email, with 10mb of HTML embedded in it either, but we are >> WAY past, 80 col, 25 rows... It would be interesting to see how >> 80x25 actually looks on today's say, 34" monitors (or whatever the >> entry level monitors are these days) >> =20 > >Entry level from my local computer superstore (microcenter) is 25" and >I am sure I would have an even lower resolution there. So no we are >*NOT* way past 25x80, you are just being dense and an elitist to say >otherwise. 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. 2) Time is a moving target. Your definition of "way past" is solely based on your own opinions and observations. Personally, for me anyway, once a train has left the station, it is gone. Obviously, everyone has their own opinion on relevancy and suitability to task. 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be supported by its creators. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/.c/XivGW/7e1EeY=EFa6afr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7oyR0ACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSj1Qf+J9WU8zz0F7ljtrBfHGVhx+uX7GSG/XWof16tcKbjqLiKFbupDKhGiqMe do60TzOyrp/6O661bJ5MMtyqbduD31CuqtzneFgW0B9m2kxPEYRHAqx5QcoHPNIN ZZB3wvOA8dtrcXHurdQ92mhnW2Sp/W1PYqUjtOZmBXpUqKETDd+kkxfU6JbRw+Ht syazf4R6XC4c/jV6D2HPzcluktShjbxLFXyLi7earWyJ0StkRF915hFaSvprsibW gRHZdTrzLDvBY7oTEJcrYPswqIK1ESN5BFrnvoOd2hQ4yaXvSKAXowxrQzUBRMnF 9/AaLBnmFd4MxlYPJ5oHjsFydP4jhQ== =Lwpz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/.c/XivGW/7e1EeY=EFa6afr-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:35:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70463395CE for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:35:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTjW3tlHz412w for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:35:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id c75so18778703ila.8 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:35:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+4F86d7joH1XGf9J00YZyjCQ7ZFHK7wBXqOeNz0Jzs8=; b=LsJRkgvIoBcPHuu5crJZubu9Vh9jbLOcHOOVeZOvmzhVEduy616mtayOz1oU00pomx a1kBklltf+mWF2Efgdde6iXfawhRdNDfnR9JFvVcZvCwqAFGBB7gO+pK+WZGiftGz4kf 9qnY+A8h69qWAqVb4Vvu5l0xZ2HgjY32t2hOEu+6CQIEMhNbv2rbEjT2U9DAU3tewfYD o5YMyMP50BQVdZfpThcZ2z4D25WtpfZnqlI4Sin2fY5xEogdEkZlGfNgfQXSUzwLbxYt htujbvo3XrJwNzKCHyro/97haqKylTYk4sVZ30kO74JPJPXLrq3AGb9B8PgOL0aIC7xA H0yA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+4F86d7joH1XGf9J00YZyjCQ7ZFHK7wBXqOeNz0Jzs8=; b=gTfVsnErHfUpnEDeDUpku3H6n85DmweeD5DNP7pzFtqbMD3Inwz/m+IfQLXAoTuK28 3V0UsrDDwHTOwKQru9XzEoIrJQvLQuskIIsDvLlTzUwe8ST29Wxpesw1jU6m5pFD0yyP QkiL8I3D/86klGN0f34oI/JV+ONvJD1aixtOiYG+8nUIhOwg4pVVJNHKt6FNmn9wo2hb vQLDcqZeoPhcN9SVQ8pH20U8EDBcZ5GomQ9U+BTkV/W7O3oCVC3sigs7hQyIXMacJYtm vcib7+1LjocCAGFi34mq49fGANjvdsWtNy5kKii2LTsMW6eqMrDnUeE8auXUVdQmIFOc OlOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532IqsK4nC2InJtvTe+ahLIt4TMiKGpwtzWxxr4FM3cGpPvu4+3V 237BTpbfuGLtekW5mR7u+zKvuPqTwU+crk5/euwdzKrM X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLMI2qDH91MA333g3rom0TT3Kcvt6oTbPiW8s6ZyHQM3T9JzadW4RPnUuwMCkA7hsjhbuR2T3gXuU2uQNmyyU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:10c:: with SMTP id t12mr3050944ilm.187.1592314541867; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:35:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:35:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTjW3tlHz412w X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:35:43 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jerry wrote: > > 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. > > [snip] > 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any > line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be > supported by its creators. > News for you: 1. Not everyone is made out of money or works for someone who is 2. Some of us have more useful things to do then buying tech we don't need like paying the rent and putting food on our table 3. To deny that the above facts are not true for at least some people is the height of lack of empathy and/or the understanding needed to pick the right defaults for a system that needs to be useful to as many people as possible. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:40:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751333398B5 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic315-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic315-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTqN4Xqrz41Hd for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: __GHR6MVM1mqkWrsQxzSrALTGFLMGEp.poMUe6nr4eZ11P.R0fU9K8cH1G39DX_ bjMPUtQauBIQRVihEYWMVLjX9927XXQD.e87CaMNHkAao2w37BKIOrXdmHK9nnYPpfsFmm.E7t3q aQKXcdLD6R7_kFQGvTndyUHMwFTT_R77.ob7H3QhvFr0BkVwxIDs.dqi_It3lb6gj26icuNURTHP vRzictmfDojjPqEVciyuBX9i4KYJ.R3jyZUPXYiUb9BCAutBl4G1nu0fQiWZ39mSCMBsxTH1jtPE ynim7m8ttZ7GqcmnvZ43haJ7GeGs16MMRhf_TK4_tdA1lUfpNGk1NnnoXuOUNYdzyGjldMSTOPl_ WP8p6_JSI63GsXr93tepyihws78E2U1JcFJcYyMnN3S.UzmD8icJYL12dzf4AJRUO4z6g.8WDO3f 2CED2Mx6llSIOi1wNKlkMe3.ct6sCtGZUikMOgz_Dojoi5Z.HlaedGNPgucmjRDAqMRXQR0aHxXy .GCzBnnk6I6DiDHqvieAHglYTfjvpBQUybCZ9Ah6ZRwydUY0ReWIaAY9pmXWlqwcpO1k9aaFomIb bUngE.XYxE8B0c3r_sVsRnVpPZh0CgSVvRaTC83afpOoPwhBVBnXCpHXd.40WEyGRuucsirPxq3o NNWQJXryJxczZf9.NXlRrUHeqNCsNhr.7mBPYtIpF_akiEy3lB.yHGZLyNC3XTCi6DLw3O7pknA9 FHyl8DDE8JbEysz34yAmhiTfl2g3W7pymGp3ZVogqrQ683ybWnuQk2xXI2G1RfSKq9i.FYt69l.E cUbO.Fscd7TQb6z6nzSuMYsy8p.cKf5GKsIcnPb_wu2RMhgLVUypDxh9kC2Awcqj7Cip.x5fs1Ch vh_E2Yb_0LJEBOx5EZ2i3rbXdFCOT9sep25MYjPTD3geiCG_VfmZZq6FCiegLhqKHyC_vR_gfr8n hky848YeTqEoN89UNsG6dlMFJ9FeGCwoGdR.sKrM05ghUbwae68QoTewrc0ziZF7eoYDo7HriuXw wIQO7_J18M2YM0VSXDGJWiImwA.F0iJHredXF2Rm.dvgackTXfulVc2o9ATEvSqB3eqBgsbhUBeN nitc3uOu.ZdRGYMJqtn3izJhPPfUCB2JRoAS6opUCs6VJNotfP810fX9k5hELmCqpZuzL8yxd.wt xcao1mwZT9ImJLXfpHQvM7OB6.73_g5mjeFEGMMEGzp.5BAEtc4tGfsA_7hOrfwWRst0xBGqLzqT F1hIR6iflaCn7IV7OC3DTcSem03Z0dAcFPPcOjP27ULgUbpNe0rjX5ufzq7iMCTVKYkN0EG2bTQk MUoqf6oaOxRiaNlF2vBakbHhhcxtH5pSqXw4hW4EsWvkoME9MCxh0I9eXort44qCAZ80jA9NDw1j VEcsgehYjwPlxlsBSAdIN5JqN.KDz32ls53ypkK6zc754 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:47 +0000 Received: by smtp408.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0622b5f3c442cbdd13ecf35a59579c89; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f52.google.com with SMTP id i4so1610398pjd.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ZRuHvb9C6oVVePGpntgoru0MoufzDM7JjS7fZe196XBh3lgpr yOpb70Dq11KIQuTMlo2XpHhpJ0G2VFhA2VEdFOk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNi6T+GPWtQml1SEZu7cvS5WO/IWbtE0a0YkpVws5/CR8QYJk6LR+R+kdcOh1MTE12ThH2ruCp2eR9iRGu2Dc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4ecb:: with SMTP id v11mr2867547pjl.75.1592314841355; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:40:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:40:25 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: FreeBSD - Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16119 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTqN4Xqrz41Hd X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.18 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.965]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.190.146:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.52)[-0.515]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[66.163.190.146:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:40:49 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 12:23, Chris Knipe wrote: > > It just amazes me each and every time when this discussion comes up.... > > You're willing to embrace change, and evolution of new technologies like > 10G Ethernet, USB / Mass Storage, CSS, JS, Lambda's JSON, etc... Yet, you > want to be stuck in the stone age when it comes to email. > > Do you still use 360K floppy disks as well? CDs? > > Things change, embrace it like the rest of the world, or move on. No one > is unfortunately going to dictate to the entire world, what they can, and > cannot use in terms of a MUA. You're most certainly not going to dictate > that to me, and you're most certainly not going to dictate to me how to (or > not), send emails. > > If you want to be stuck in the stone age, then so be it. Feel free to not > read my emails if it bothers you that much. You're missing the point. If you don't like email conventions, use web forums, Facebook, Twitter, Whatapp, Tinder, Grinder, Zoom, or whatever is cool today and out of fashion next year. Electronic mail is an old protocol with RFC's for multiple reasons. (See what you did there? You didn't quote any message, so we don't really know the context of your reply. You could be right, but posterity will never know.) -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:41:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50FE63398DA for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:41:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mTrZ3BMZz41nM for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:41:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1592314910; x=1594906910; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=LHflI6XbIFbGgTXfn6o7TBcfbT1bELk2PHp1rzeu7sM=; b=fyWnq7ONogcoCo2RTOCqQIjxuwhF9dTj3D/OAE7uZHG91fc8qIHxdJ3Kjtw1jv7fQolIrFzWHlURupFST+mMS+z4w96iCCmulO2UVnMQY4shgWmYWTbnJ6H6C2rzf9jiVxFRK/KQi/64NGbcoFsIHc35MZYVCYyVBriL6e/KRCY= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMDA4NTM3OTMuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:41:44 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:41:42 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jlBqP-000BGT-9I; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:41:41 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:41:41 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Chris Knipe Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-Id: <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTrZ3BMZz41nM X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=fyWnq7ON; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.004]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.91)[-0.910]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c20000853793.96ba6469ca08878bbf2586e5bc0a6592@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:41:51 -0000 On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:28:27 +0200 Chris Knipe wrote: > We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions run > at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) My ssh sessions generally run at 80 columns (more than 25 rows though), it is useful being able to fit more than one across the screen. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:46:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201CF339DB5 for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TVCqI3EE4Chz11jzOLJvCVYoephQlb9LYh5rcJTZaZU=; b=fiH6WIShY6q13hwxEirMld4xAi/lbA9dPZnrjFs9ueIGxbgnFaVqjbOPiigRJ5nrNK 9+frMdlI/EnlT/VDzntPjmFelgZyqvXKgtdXAqQ/BG6u3dAmnOzWmJAHUM5lxpXkPDEa zIOyL4hPBHySbYHNMLLdQJftlqbKch+3bc0eHZwlPeuzMkiOgiqFz2ml64tFaY61t111 x+5ZTc21FWjy07Zd4ZU9veqSitCZB4JvTM82fGHCVFFc9KovIw0RQTfx0VYQSMgHlZVI 8Zb3U70rQ7XA5KC/Ih3/xhROUVgIS98q5zFAG6zT4v0AFYkWKvv4IXVSV5W/g1eUDIBG QGJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530l4Uke+Tfc2Nmokyx/O7BmrL6bfxl7YSZqOq6rjx7a9V6v1+FM 70XuHo/dinj8Rs081EgfJ7vSv+7vMDL6ygbJ8Lw7Zu0mNuQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyuZXf6nMqpayKfq6p+V/dRz7pFVsF7Z4yB/mrG/+v/Aeyz9tOFfcuVonMjsvWdZc2UUlLllHfQ4IyJR6rFt/4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d755:: with SMTP id o82mr3959509ybg.166.1592315165909; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:45:54 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mTxW0lnZz41dN X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=L4pdImeW; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.24 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.042]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.015]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b34:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.981]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:46:08 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:35 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jerry wrote: > > > > > 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. > > > > [snip] > > > 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any > > line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be > > supported by its creators. > > > > News for you: > 1. Not everyone is made out of money or works for someone who is > > 2. Some of us have more useful things to do then buying tech we don't need > like paying the rent and putting food on our table > > 3. To deny that the above facts are not true for at least some people is > the height of lack of empathy and/or the understanding needed to pick the > right defaults for a system that needs to be useful to as many people as > possible. > > We are talking about https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#idp44832888 It would -seem- to me (personally at least), the majority is kept back to cater for the minority. As I've said in my initial post, I will use whatever MUA I want, and I will send email in whatever standard I deem to be acceptable. It would -seem- to me, that the problem is YOUR choice of MUA that cannot decode / display said email correctly, and not mine that is not encoding it correctly. If you want to use old / outdated technologies, that is your choice. I know of many, many freelancers having even better hardware than I. If you choose to be stuck in the old age, then so be it. The majority, can't be technologically held back to cater for the minority. If you depend on said tech to generate income to pay rent and put food on the table (like all of us btw, not just you), common sense would dictate that you'd want to continuously improve on said tech to be able to use the latest and greatest technologies to woo said clients and get the business in order to get the $$$ you need to pay the rent / put food on said table. No my friend, it is your CHOICE to be stuck in the stone age... In fact, the entire tone of your message basically reads "I use old tech, and therefore it MUST be supported".... -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:53:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7253339D48 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:53:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mV6444V6z42Ft for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:53:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id g28so19179645qkl.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:53:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=0XtivKeTVSyQPTo+9KjAXmnf4WGqZ04Ri0BxvWVne28=; b=ZxvJn1N4bh0eFg9tZtaSe3JutgORWanneDI1+ApGpoCFF1HtXubQeJCJxpdiBHRbqv mnm3VZIvuoH0rPfxQVRhYarfAnTaggCOu8BQvS05IblsUcZMA7PbKZGQB4ofQ8cRyVUa b69xbJSyK4KixpR1kOrSN8GWcNkaObBKxDJMQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=0XtivKeTVSyQPTo+9KjAXmnf4WGqZ04Ri0BxvWVne28=; b=GYvuVFBp6mXo4F5+vbbKqW8eqHkX9gsBp7LDJjr9uCFG6YMK14mij3Bui+qsPyiGfp pZ3Wf2XqDsAJyGWNBHBi1ZURiUIMOvZ3Y5529Z1C+P6e1CErEd6roy1K27aatjHTMGgS VQYCzjchzTuOh33U6ElXzIVn1RM9QLFne8j2/So1gH8C+VXG6+q7/89dEhgzv8//tpJJ UZgkLff3+F1S6CinQ4ewJ0xWICAi0MfuIx/LXoWTkb+NadJG8KJlL4N5nNNZntlI3yUl lBTIiXZgkdCx3SXaWXZoPXNs+pRkj46S/qCeNCDebDJMzUvIuvepSBHacjmOx8hdFeA1 gmTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533l78/bk9rqokJ/utF7ZVQ0MuOWi99vnodaZWdaRketK9cNqhiW h80PvRn06Ku/Yfu8X9l9OBV7ZwmHLBE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6by+gPt/lwyEXhv1Bg/1ZnqbtVlNZeOnhREJGpK/c8dwRl8sAOYFacBGfrh8S1c/Ok1E2xA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:73c2:: with SMTP id o185mr19906499qkc.356.1592315610859; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y1sm15228719qta.82.2020.06.16.06.53.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hp-envy.seibercom.net [192.168.1.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49mV604zvkz4S9R for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:53:16 -0400 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200616095316.000056d8@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/K9Gj7thEX8SCei5FtneGTYi"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mV6444V6z42Ft X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=ZxvJn1N4; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::730 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.89 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.63)[-0.633]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.886]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::730:from]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:53:33 -0000 --Sig_/K9Gj7thEX8SCei5FtneGTYi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:35:30 -0400, Aryeh Friedman commented: >On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jerry wrote: > >> >> 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. >> >> [snip] =20 > >> 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any >> line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be >> supported by its creators. >> =20 > >News for you: >1. Not everyone is made out of money or works for someone who is You state the obvious. >2. Some of us have more useful things to do then buying tech we don't >need like paying the rent and putting food on our table I never encouraged the procurement of items that the end user had no use for. I did mention that purchasing the "entry" or "bargain basement" item(s) is almost always a fallacy, or exercise is a false economic doctrine. You are obviously free to spend your money anyway you want. >3. To deny that the above facts are not true for at least some people >is the height of lack of empathy and/or the understanding needed to >pick the right defaults for a system that needs to be useful to as >many people as possible. Again, you are improperly comprehending what I wrote, I stated "Not Everyone ..." If I might inquire, who picks the 'right' defaults? Has that job been delegated to you? People, any people, are free to choose what they want with the money they have to spend free from anyone dictating to them that what is acceptable. To think otherwise is gross arrogance. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/K9Gj7thEX8SCei5FtneGTYi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl7ozswACgkQOHMGOIfe xWQfOQf/SzBcS71rrSVLvCu/E9EALbfeK/XMfLko9jEr9/PH6o6KuR7wOrYLEBtr 99uW+EhHNDg/mcdTATgyY/TCUBAoczHvCkFa5OZPmgtaxnt/ctrI1gW1j8HJYtsb CIpOEBQicmX1GD3rMbuKYHKFcr80CO/IFmHnGDDUKHpkeCm9EZQ1+ChMnS/dJz1E cC38mDGDWcnrPzkaF4Y9oe01QlILiOiH+aw3fpYx7pU8y6zQE5xt5kYNniw1MOQb OVhL56YrvejeIisKH0kkuiOrNefP8W+CDouDNRlO2Foi5Lik++McG9BJzWbV4XPU KkFP+6DEac3A1BtmxI7BA/+MYEl6WQ== =0gf5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/K9Gj7thEX8SCei5FtneGTYi-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:54:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178A8339D4F for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:54:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb29.google.com (mail-yb1-xb29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mV6g1dwqz42Wk for ; 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b=SerbRnMXls7KZQYeM23FmydD9BCQ4qqE12TUHa6jY5Rch8sDvZD7xn7MynAuGn2Ggm +EtzhK75fwHQnFB2KTns6nwGMUUqkDsuoahmMkUkYhopcp1h3/hwenvciq3OcGJ/nyIZ zAAMgmuZdvkKnr8q1iPY5vwqtmioTU1FGFN4jYIyINwpsFzq2fUE+Hxl5wutbnPrsR5Q 6Npf6lGdvagsuPRjgWf9tbFbZ2c1tvPpbEB9/GcPsjY+sBKhOBD4M7Nu7PuLSUjoFkLY ULOVSa8sVHCLpgK8rg+Ru9tYzV/m6Pm6kHOt0rbddEscaM8QIec9EUASy5aK5HKvIWuU 1SRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Me0jIkbKjE7c2+SgNQ8vtrcCBlzo/oJW/93/O3WzJCCXvh/mA Kc7Z9ZvSnU4N6a7sm2FouBxHobM85/5hs7XUNdnnXA0P X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZUjK4pOjW6IztYK+l24Q03v7zICRX1ZBNnQzVT3tjZKRwMMadjhIcHxY4WK2pIv8eevDzb1HbUHZ3j4FMvbU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bd0:: with SMTP id 199mr4418169ybl.329.1592315642362; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:54:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 15:53:51 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mV6g1dwqz42Wk X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=H3NulLbC; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.26 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.047]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.02)[-1.017]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:54:04 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:41 PM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:28:27 +0200 > Chris Knipe wrote: > > > We don't use 640x480 monitors anymore (hell, not even our SSH sessions > run > > at these low resolutions and 80 col / 25 rows anymore) > > My ssh sessions generally run at 80 columns (more than 25 rows > though), it is useful being able to fit more than one across the screen. > > > And that's your -choice- it's not an -requirement- The terminal is intelligent enough to wrap the text. Why can't your MUA be intelligent enough to wrap emails with > 74 characters on a line? -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 13:56:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6950A33A229 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:56:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mV9p0QVkz42dN for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:56:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id i1so1410808ils.11 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:56:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NdbkwtHCyHbIrr9ny7SAWAyWdN3cNmj0sCO3n0FwDW8=; b=CYgicPykXAPxyfsLlOEgI56w3vrXgziU183iJiknmiTspmBJWIBhqs5YJkjzEqOLS8 qPr7v/KNLjpUMtiaEizvUDWbaWqP+3NLxnuz2tG7IzD0YTuDb/KVmUwiHYtonmzlI75+ 7Qub7fWUgXe3opZoNPEEIRD4B4YsLAyWOfcYd6Dx550BQLa/hErZMiXHSvCL1T1n2gZz oE5IhElAj9PszL/uD+t+bDtASa43ZMQwasbZ+kkOlNhNFU7e+nHnA+It9lHfkzQqaLW1 dp3fJUbibvLGdatzjtsqTOK8b4mIJ5EjcxsqPE3hS2K3gjrEqsRgP1BnnuWv+YX3T1cw DTXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NdbkwtHCyHbIrr9ny7SAWAyWdN3cNmj0sCO3n0FwDW8=; b=icR3jxEhggC5wfn4keED2wGXMhem+zc7WhSSiGuQSDdWAeyuzTWKiDnLWF9ES4aAq1 NL5fKzjOIe4A8F8xXC1nOLxWGyWZQWHmf53ErUHao8zPAQfhi+brJ20VmRo/DniHIt4p Yfy72nQQnS2/mr2jFeQuJ+BD0aK0Ahi71jFy0yeDdOay1IN0048vC95+EIqTjyc5GcVy edpoUgOmQbFqhJ4LbUAeXn7uPNeCSgkLW0ROXSVuno3K5i6eixBbMk9693ustAOf9qq0 btBdwsO1wDaJTXAQ1jDFdQRoqiGfRvIcPMeXxkllTME8ZAN1Mx1cic0Z/jAuojwlag6k a69Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316RntbubdMEe4zFjxMCEV6Ng4F/CeK2C6uY5j6nvkRxd2INsXZ ZH0KZijzB4Qv/9KAjMNu4O3BTBn73U8dRoojraY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzgmPn36JyUtvmdxAdEwXtnug57Nq5J1pNt1HYTr4mBzUJtlRZ86aPJLYSHN50ORojBW3kVYCskzb7AMTsnap8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:eb0:: with SMTP id u16mr3430341ilj.81.1592315804833; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 06:56:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:56:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mV9p0QVkz42dN X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=CYgicPyk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.53 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.052]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.48)[-0.480]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 13:56:47 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:46 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:35 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:29 AM Jerry wrote: >> >> > >> > 1) Not everybody buys the bargain basement item. >> > >> > [snip] >> >> > 3) In virtually all cases, I never buy the entry level product of any >> > line. It is almost always the first one to go obsolete and/or not be >> > supported by its creators. >> > >> >> News for you: >> 1. Not everyone is made out of money or works for someone who is >> >> 2. Some of us have more useful things to do then buying tech we don't need >> like paying the rent and putting food on our table >> >> 3. To deny that the above facts are not true for at least some people is >> the height of lack of empathy and/or the understanding needed to pick the >> right defaults for a system that needs to be useful to as many people as >> possible. >> >> > We are talking about > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html#idp44832888 > > It would -seem- to me (personally at least), the majority is kept back to > cater for the minority. As I've said in my initial post, I will use > whatever MUA I want, and I will send email in whatever standard I deem to > be acceptable. It would -seem- to me, that the problem is YOUR choice of > MUA that cannot decode / display said email correctly, and not mine that is > not encoding it correctly. > I am not the one complaining about the inability to do anything. I use gmail directly on the web and never had any of the issues you described. Please be more careful about actually reading what people said before making assumptions about them (other people were complaining about the formatting, I was not, I was only complaining about your attitude). > If you want to use old / outdated technologies, that is your choice. I > know of many, many freelancers having even better hardware than I. If you > choose to be stuck in the old age, then so be it. The majority, can't be > technologically held back to cater for the minority. If you depend on said > tech to generate income to pay rent and put food on the table (like all of > us btw, not just you), common sense would dictate that you'd want to > continuously improve on said tech to be able to use the latest and greatest > technologies to woo said clients and get the business in order to get the > $$$ you need to pay the rent / put food on said table. > I hardly call maintaining the software behind a remote cardiac monitoring system "low tech" or backwards. I will call it life critical and that's why I stay with stuff I *KNOW* is rock solid instead of being the shiniest thing on the block (dead people don't know or care how new tech is if they are dead just ask several thousand people who flew on a 737-MAX *ONCE*) . If you want to woo the kind of client who is impressed by bells and whistles, be my guest but just do me a favor and keep them away from any project that might actually affect someone's life/livehood. No my friend, it is your CHOICE to be stuck in the stone age... In fact, > the entire tone of your message basically reads "I use old tech, and > therefore it MUST be supported".... > More like it has been fire tested to hell and back and passes with flying colors where newer stuff can't always make that claim. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:01:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8DC33A4AB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:01:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVHQ6GnHz431p for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:01:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id i25so1616961iog.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:01:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8A4rfHHookcP1UK0zjZj8wEsOqxIMjDToYQtoB+Q/SM=; b=dqPaIvZqjj3oiyLyrIExVvlCQR7FZEu5CZFo/JVJ1gXywycFpvAOtIgxIv7XUyNSkW hOeCxZgokhmeFqLy+nEcw0iFFurQ0Joj+5/EQMyvJU7CVjcbVq/G8sa7lLWo8e+z314Z DERSf59JRIMPCOY4w56AiirZT05Irj90Q1EhH82hvDaUlJ96y9B2d13iOjzefjnkUJbQ DIG9hGnvAg8xX84TfpUPkA6yfW23Ka3140VDtr/CXvIh7iFEl8Rtm9LyT5fEC/HvdbTC J9rAbkcZcWVzfPkPy8TzlRBKvIISkM8G5HiYKT8CoHeT2f9S7drUGLSIDFwgmPE8KkVO em5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8A4rfHHookcP1UK0zjZj8wEsOqxIMjDToYQtoB+Q/SM=; b=i2ZGr7gBAyf1Sgfy8G9lDBLCLKbB5uEisFI0VttYbQj34I1sAwnYBlSu4SJXa0J868 PIExZYaJ8h6j9tQrRM66Vwf4p9kEeCGyr7YLEC2plWAPt4x4V8TI1St6u2cf+QPgeEQ+ cfpUP9AE4AFIEhvYLu4YT2IY53b6YJ4BWMgIiFHXJZVCzzwKE6k6CKf6hglPrlH6wuWt 6aD23NYoNsuYEVDmQ2WFuOSMc4Cf4h+j0d0Zy0khO6U8hGfxKWMWZcd4DzAmwi4GjrPb bN5Z1Fk5sbHqHhb3lKF41LdSunAQiTCeHKQy1Wy8/4yVNMbaXzAhhIS+iCnDzP7sAuU3 Gwrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532m6rZ4A5Q7kLqZ+wsI5/Wp6ZvmymauiSkwtrfiRvENzJpc+uuG +DUgb/ywujkwc17Y0cDOM8N+LnovPKWqB1jWF78= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxRIKCXE2dgF4rUnO+YFtwoHbQrX2ohR1VjUjp3iyVVhKQikdp6cfbWxtYDFJSadaHJY2F4iKvFwUD2oc1YrpI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5915:: with SMTP id n21mr2828781iob.103.1592316097338; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:01:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:01:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVHQ6GnHz431p X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=dqPaIvZq; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.045]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.51)[-0.515]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:01:40 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:54 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > Why can't your MUA be intelligent enough to wrap emails with > 74 > characters on a line? > Because programs that try to be "smart" about things are often "too smart for their own good". For example what is to stop it from wrapping something that for various reasons *HAS* to be longer than 74 chars (like code) when such wrapping destroys the ability to cut and paste from the MUA into another file for testing? Here goes a good example: #include main() { printf("Long email lines are not evil, nor are do they need to be corrected, try and cut and paste this into a C program and make it compile right out of the box.\n I dare you!" } -- > > Regards, > Chris Knipe > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:02:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E3233A5BF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:02:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVHs61mPz42tb for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:02:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com with SMTP id o4so10880918ybp.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:02:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:02:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:01:49 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVHs61mPz42tb X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ajKbTsCe; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.45 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.041]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.20)[-0.205]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:02:02 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:56 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > More like it has been fire tested to hell and back and passes with flying > colors where newer stuff can't always make that claim. > I bet they said the same about SSL1.0 / SSL2.0, or WPA, or well, take your pick... :-) Even medical technologies, envolve at a rapid, rapid pace... The MAX had nothing to do with 80x25 text, neither does a heart monitor. The MAX was purely corporate greed to rush an aircraft in order to have competition to offer to the Airbus A320 NEO. Good code is not defined by rows and columns, good code is defined by how it is written. Again, please stop trying to insult one's intelligence. -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:04:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0CED33A8B4 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVLS753hz43Qq for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id y5so21911902iob.12 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:04:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d5W7uonZK6yKquMK7ZxRPG20t2XZS/9TaQFTBhBtVzo=; b=BZ/hwint3NNDG2G7AK93xF0AL+cqmgI3OZGmndfKqbcPAO4vasnGJjwgyTS4ZYWSjR nVQNiIWqazmuAu1FbptdRDUL+mgzsnnRFt2LUgc7MHYcxqOc1PqP0IS5Dy3fU21DMxCJ S17jUKZEpTdOl/GOG4FpgOOfQ8ObtOk/+HWzLHuiIGmMYNBbB638e5mIXy6+/RXJePb6 CiVk8APtVjqIiIwvMod+a4SLhNPiHnsp92C/RyAaoFSJjBUg9hSbat0NVonWqBYuGN68 gv9azeL8iVIExwQCkZn6339iXhCugJ1T1wgyeg1N7riJbSME3u4jCYV9W+SrK3onGlPH tk+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d5W7uonZK6yKquMK7ZxRPG20t2XZS/9TaQFTBhBtVzo=; b=FTDnk3SYVUcoc7ZiG72Yh0s8KT8WZ6TaM0x8o1KOp1VzP/D9olPhH3SDocdUVYqUSp k9H+uvEnoDz4MxUxtlM+2VggkCOjCV4aEt8rltWGjcPEouRfNlthOh2cOUhL2Fgr8F8d vvTCpZfFqmGWTkez9hL5VI4HdeW6NDlOD3Lkwk93kW4PEIwsb8rW7oBPKrtpE4ihdrrJ HJkpeh0U6uSawY+9CholxghzshLW/oK+ykR/u+ULS/rk7XYNnTQ++sVOUoNbLHUQFoWH +BSPgAjPgTpZOJXA52jvkZo0iriXx3akttodQ3u5XRbVNwbytm8N0WklmCeMZXWg/rmP wZrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iJ78yzS01CTtv1GZTGG0UCey9QUlzPA4NZcdMXNa/L+g80cA4 50a1/7eJN77fQwngGduNWCgZxE5NSWLpzP8264srgSRz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyiWjlFzwIWVoAJFBSt2tF+wnPFFAzr1qQHvKxKZQ0TQmfaqVGfuLX4CtzDqU7PZ2kIdIX8p7eY+FkcNTj3Zjo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1243:: with SMTP id o3mr2740419iou.89.1592316254389; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:04:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:04:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVLS753hz43Qq X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=BZ/hwint; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.17 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.051]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.12)[-0.119]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:17 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:02 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > Good code is not defined by rows and columns, good code is defined by how > it is written. Again, please stop trying to insult one's intelligence. > What a hypocrite you insult everyone on the list by making assumptions about their (prefered) configuration. Go back to your ivory tower. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:04:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA76233A912 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVLn5YnMz43Z9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id k18so10853379ybm.13 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:04:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=L7jGJB1L8ZWpbfkzGBvxqSEg57MONmTKQNIgINvWXU0=; b=NWgFG8EBj/619186JhfJPvFueRnvztFGkMyabx7Q/aHTcIFscG9AYpUxM98g0Xlg/o HYwb+coNUa+znDB2HN+U5cwB3AGTHTsXcqvwIBZSxeFe1MZ4dpFsSoFMn2RBSBZJLRq7 O6UMJ49JCZKUcp2TwbO3e02e2Iu4apvnyhh/hituJmHtZ4bvanTZaY5JpnXQG1eC+UCP iImJ+ZcKkx+mMYpDQYEicIooBsyeRFkhamFDS/JlluoP07zBOwx4U/JUTBqqz4wLEmMQ Oz+FyqkWu0d6eVxPnd5D62eSc3/ag08VqnJnSiBeWWN7y15QkBhJLfJhRsciSuqtXMIV h8aQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=L7jGJB1L8ZWpbfkzGBvxqSEg57MONmTKQNIgINvWXU0=; b=YkA8Se83EOWAaJYV+xff+8BoUfynGJ0YYkVxCSbwtQZmnL95V4EB7a0bp6WuonGkkH uNr+kp4B7Uwmkc+NlcIN8/GUWVkjpLbFjqA9zQj5wXC7plcw0Ta+RayVcBMSA3KUA5cN x76oYzFPoYw15u/kIzP78cZ+e4IcTD/dkXmhUrDv5XAzvk02UQElqkuAeGwWL0qYdJkJ TXVi7XZ7ixD39OBbvopoYFEHCANSHzbk8Zdod/BdJI0/E0gorK7huxLknsTiGhrZTFTS MQWdqriap4kh2u1d3wm/pfCShOCYWUjNHz2GxdqgjNZ0batb7vhhnVERJFgURdH3smHN +b0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532u2xHI9XU6TAqwC0UYjb5ZFC/PJkzOfYUBQDALT2cqKd/sg7ON M9/LzxPOWTbH63y+m+DbSSPF5w4dpUDl54iso3loFQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxyKtvjx2/6rhTk+cNtBhNow4y4A6rV2M3YaEVB3d3BcgefYXNEA4Zg1/e+Xop26fFziSO7FwXuHa4nLVEMBf8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:3784:: with SMTP id e126mr4765312yba.267.1592316272814; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:04:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:04:21 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVLn5YnMz43Z9 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=NWgFG8EB; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.033]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.10)[0.098]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:04:34 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:01 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:54 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > >> >> Why can't your MUA be intelligent enough to wrap emails with > 74 >> characters on a line? >> > > Because programs that try to be "smart" about things are often "too smart > for their own good". For example what is to stop it from wrapping > something that for various reasons *HAS* to be longer than 74 chars (like > code) when such wrapping destroys the ability to cut and paste from the MUA > into another file for testing? > > Here goes a good example: > > Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is there for a reason)... There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:06:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E1533AA7D for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:06:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVP75dYjz43d3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:06:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id a13so1785699ilh.3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:06:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s/HSN6NTlWcKiPUHnnkFhAfdVrl1OanLgb9w0SrnUrc=; b=uH5nsaCA2CU+eLFRrhG3EihdEYg825iEYOtfvXjN3QtATsdFcSbYglF1+69lsHl4pa rRG8GYMp8XPZnd19yMszQIYSrSAbeLhA78FIV+1DOxjQc1CRSeZaD5Zj90vsQbW+ubUk duCaU4Rm0x9g3ER3hxPnTi9N7uRS4db1pg1ruyHbykmnGCzCNw0bd4a5hKaAv6CcaDSr pTYTwAhWG1KYKaFGz2tImZIQx/iS+uHC55QnRKBpY9K614SevsUMmlXKLYx7cAPltuOK bcTAJTjpGNIspDQ17KB0ypeyRKm3kG9DYsDMasE8yNZV2vKQ3HcQwyWb0dY0Rb1g8hbB DjYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s/HSN6NTlWcKiPUHnnkFhAfdVrl1OanLgb9w0SrnUrc=; b=XFKBkQC+B+XVzSgCZRmtE248ogZwwsWmCLbYLNI3+i1nH+hhd3CiErY5ltXX0BCPic wSBnsPsEpgZxLng8CuFhp+jjwoWlJlnO9yhjyGdgyRbAHysCUK17rFU5BAbZ0Z4HYpb/ im37Eq6lzaKoAb1k9IxfimOxYLuEsKMaNiWZ2B7F5LNDT5juhsaj8URxekYbQKr2y6+e MDeVwnWB439hrwB1ChZems+xMzMgV4fP4N1aP9V5P3NgSXLTaNjYD0tp+BAFWqzjNzHk IguIvljnI8TWSuNHXn6Asym7cn6FciYXwXRD1dtkfatP6v7GOu8DBTwsSIJqp7ZkuN2L omOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530qZrU9hVBP0f1U3AyCHP8vkLHm9g+mOciIqGNRRrE1QBqr0qhy 8d/fddHmB3IQhNBdgQ3Q9XgTFluL2pSMjg6mlPgGDIT3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYlteDaSzB6gdREJH7iI1VxyjZBnMoiLEM3JPK4jyuiA8K8KUdYYKYWlH7NlFxWGeEjvwC1VrM874QbBAjm6o= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:10c:: with SMTP id t12mr3183041ilm.187.1592316394880; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:06:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:06:23 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVP75dYjz43d3 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=uH5nsaCA; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.04 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.044]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.00)[-0.001]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:06:36 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:04 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:01 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:54 AM Chris Knipe wrote: >> >>> >>> Why can't your MUA be intelligent enough to wrap emails with > 74 >>> characters on a line? >>> >> >> Because programs that try to be "smart" about things are often "too smart >> for their own good". For example what is to stop it from wrapping >> something that for various reasons *HAS* to be longer than 74 chars (like >> code) when such wrapping destroys the ability to cut and paste from the MUA >> into another file for testing? >> >> Here goes a good example: >> >> > Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is > there for a reason)... > > There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) > If you don't like email then you should not be using FreeBSD because for better or worse the community has standardized on email as the primary tech support venue and thus absolutely needs to have something that can be used to give tech support (including 100% accurate cut and pasting). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:17:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649DF33B5FE for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:17:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivares14031@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVdW0BzSz44Nq for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:17:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivares14031@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id l11so20975879wru.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:17:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6uPx7EHjQZUR/R+xQ86xjlW9AM39TyrO+3UDzRG6GYo=; b=Nli7T7Epg5OJBUCXDk7+tkzmh9LkRDtGY2TDe+QiZhpzHsWzHY5IkKVi+Wy0gG5GoG Ipktp8DFGtoJgkojSiSv6v/09a1UOsMjz1Z8KSqjl5jqzES7b980uWnYgGZYJnmgLngi lubDLLPOaQNk7/AFVWjNPEFFKLaH7o7PR1Xc+0QO98Uu78TVS6j+EedESZF0lmsBuc6Q j9aSIcbdvjTDSerQ/tFd1YJAftjNpisen9e/qn5r5yE2riEou5S+Wfyh+tDqwLedZTyc eNCZ73xO8uqPM5Nv1JnR8y1F2avdGNi32mQCIJ3JbQgid5aTP0rIq8WSW1vihUNwqU5e chbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6uPx7EHjQZUR/R+xQ86xjlW9AM39TyrO+3UDzRG6GYo=; b=DoOHjT/5kzRUiExRRN/XChHG/k2QvjH6VErDbVbbajs5NGziN4zvPwsrV+c/bbDK+l m6XG7WgDYPoXvXL8Ch8kmu87GvIew15fg0xv4a6JfA0AT0Jjv0yudiesRwx5mjkr5DR4 4BlkD6ai48dndqj0HEVhTvkY/kaxbOXLNcYpps7dYw6fgiO6slHJ0yekqQbXDbRCTNAf viRj6sITSoEOGwZ0AzIMDxGC63EfTLbUh0cHc9sz3B1QQ0maZz2Sp2MJeIS+P0zpvvjp eRIuWdMyBY/yfAzoix/MwvtPUmK5Gtz2fqLyH+gkvjxynFmR+jWOuuswjbNZwYV9hLcc 48pQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+VOCMgVLm49QtZ6rRjkb+a2H0ZVe/kNTlArIqAB8NaXHjclbJ DKKYiLQj4x+NF141ZujXUOQvh2awMgVxJhGnzuk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyf/XBLG2jVq5e4QwJmv8onkRXEWID0YyW12BNwR1lZ4VXFhzDqK5GDMxpA58255/2ENaEHJqoMYFNPu+RGM8c= X-Received: by 2002:adf:fdcc:: with SMTP id i12mr3497896wrs.313.1592317037224; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:17:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a7b:c093:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:17:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200616122728.7bd2df41.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616073000.00003eb6@seibercom.net> <20200616133753.963639be.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Antonio Olivares Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 09:17:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 12.1 i386 CD #1 image size not compatible with intended medium standard size To: Polytropon Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVdW0BzSz44Nq X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Nli7T7Ep; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of olivares14031@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::42b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=olivares14031@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.032]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.002]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::42b:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.07)[-0.067]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:17:20 -0000 On Tuesday, June 16, 2020, Polytropon wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:30:00 -0400, Jerry wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 12:27:28 +0200, Polytropon commented: >> >Due to a system where I can only boot from CD, I downloaded the >> >FreeBSD 12.1 CD image (disc1.iso). It was not possible to record >> >this in a standard way to a 700 MB (not 650 MB) blank CD medium >> >(here: Platinum 700 MB / 80 min). >> >> Are you referring to: >> >> 1) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso >> or >> 2) FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-disc1.iso > > As mentioned at the end of the message (discussing image file size), > the file I used was FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso, because the > system it is intended for is not 64 bit capable, so i386 is what I > will have to use. > > I think the problem here is that 728 MB exceeds the standard that > says 650 MB and allows 700 MB and, by use of nonstandard tools, > does not guarantee for anything if you successfully burn 728 MB. > "Is possible" doesn't imply "will work as expected". :-) > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > _______________________________________________ I have used cd media < 700 MB iso from mfsbsd https://mfsbsd.vx.sk/ But they have for amd64, but I believe one can create an i386 variant and install FreeBSD from it. Best Regards, Antonio From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:22:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A3433BD1A for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb30.google.com (mail-yb1-xb30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVl03KPjz456G for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb30.google.com with SMTP id j202so10892303ybg.6 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:22:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZikDdI/BlaCKOSqzB04RaqCsSRg+zmbobb7PEjKrnqU=; b=kveWZCBuEVnAQIzlBorEJb3dQA5waZ4Ws9bje5y1mYXe1zgifTxUbpOyW+pPQNfEn0 8iviEpXy9p/yfjfm6F4+YDa/5+t3U99eW2LyHXhCN00biov3La2TC67z4lYQ+vu7zdJj AI7HiMyeb6fCc/FVXx4qvtXtBpq6jqo56Ehfe5Efad9YbO1pbs+2NVxI9DnxP647Pdi4 hcnvgdq2NFnyASo6DR1fum+qL286DO7CpUsxMT4a5p6MJsTWrFLaEapuvNn+WEe7kDOZ Gctjt2Rxry8qXMpHVTVAT5f0GsuYl4/egJfEosCZUry4ti+1mK/Q2jnIz0QOfrmWo5h/ pK5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZikDdI/BlaCKOSqzB04RaqCsSRg+zmbobb7PEjKrnqU=; b=WDM9RPANUQaeZKzDVW655BCGndg9878JU6XkIM6TGyraSGzCtjkxWE+gHxGsmxzZiR NcVACDEgE5ElK+I5EdWJj2N+Z6yTjGxypowxoEpuP/2EzHjqH6adof7du044K01r8dSj o7kePg4baFvzQDg274YZ1SGgg4J7eiXWwTt92viJ0OPFucuucLwrPbvCXjeJtVO8IVUV DeMsQG0c1u7RYadd6diCJOOZf6BmvFjqnYxTjhFs+WHoMg3aJ5yJEEP31VIrv13ohmyu OlslfwcX3q2nSQh/zdmN2cv2a1sHoeoGj8bg2B9VVyLmAeSm1X/RFJ9iJ5LX5Lf/p6BN rVuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gyhgOPT8VACjDqMrTHgEUO+GynY2ozTMXrsYGm4IWosS2wW4Q MidKnIqE/uLVzNd2djIdNXspDqVjLx5zeg/5zwaEFQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxHLta46gWfIRYhiHOOagxL0PGSvbxsTjROvVVp2H2beBKhvGMAStbvpnJcdhvxK9rlFZg1pu/qUnYGyTJaxY8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d755:: with SMTP id o82mr4203236ybg.166.1592317323208; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:22:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:21:52 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVl03KPjz456G X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=kveWZCBu; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.67 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.032]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b30:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.05)[0.047]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:22:05 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:06 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is >> there for a reason)... >> >> There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) >> > > If you don't like email then you should not be using FreeBSD because for > better or worse the community has standardized on email as the primary tech > support venue and thus absolutely needs to have something that can be used > to give tech support (including 100% accurate cut and pasting). > And again - there's absolutely -nothing- wrong with that at all, I never said that there was... Millions of companies provide support to millions of users every day using email... That being said, I get a 80 character plain text email from a company as "support," I deem that as unprofessional, and the email will more than likely just be deleted. We live in modern times, unfortunately. Presentation matters, whether you like it or not. Cut & paste from the attachment, then you won't have any formatting issues from any MUAs, but I guess it's too much effort to open the attachment. There's plenty of solutions (UUEncode/BASE64, as you so nicely put it, has also been trialed and tested over many, many years, just FYI - it also has the benefit of < 80 characters wide), 80x25 is not one of them, and whether you like it or not, you will -never- get the world to adhere to a 80 (or 74 or whatever) character wide email. The world has moved on, deal with it. The fact is, you should be committing your code to a repository, and checking said code out of said repository when you need it. In an open source environment, said code is also publicly viewable using any half decent web browser (I guess GITHUB is also doing it wrong?) No, code should not be shared via email - and if you do then so be it - your choice, not a requirement. You don't need to email the code, all you can do is email a URL to your commit / diff... Again, too much effort to open a URL right? I forgot that in the old days without GUIs, we couldn't even double click. I guess you still can't today. Again, it's the minority that is sharing code via email... In fact, I would say very, very, very little people do it. Oh - and I love email.... Never said I didn't. -- Regards, Chris Knipe From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:27:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EE933BC67 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:27:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVry1xWrz45M9 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:27:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id h3so18973757ilh.13 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:27:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:27:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:27:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVry1xWrz45M9 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Cl+QHUh3; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.15 / 15.00]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.052]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.10)[-0.100]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:27:15 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:02 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 3:56 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > >> More like it has been fire tested to hell and back and passes with flying >> colors where newer stuff can't always make that claim. >> > > I bet they said the same about SSL1.0 / SSL2.0, or WPA, or well, take your > pick... :-) > > Even medical technologies, envolve at a rapid, rapid pace... The MAX had > nothing to do with 80x25 text, neither does a heart monitor. > It doesn't evolve as fast you *THINK* it does for example our system supports over 200 different doctor offices/practices and about 10% still use Windows XP at 1024x768 and *REFUSE* to move to anything newer even after being told that using anything older than Windows 8 is an automatic HIPAA violation (DHS OCR [the office that oversees HIPAA enforcement] has said anything that lacks active vendor support is an automatic violation). About another 20% use Windows 7 and also refuse to upgrade. The console for the monitors (rarely used directly by anyone except for us the programmers) is 24x80 via a USB connector. So yes such screen sizes are an issue for us. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:32:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4076133BBDB for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVyb1rjWz45Sl for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id m81so22104915ioa.1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:32:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9HcjETB4m1XbThzV0uBqa0PZ+SPzXBk3HuAaPnTDhc4=; b=k1xRTqAGi+PicapQYvTS7I1mpC7IvAQcFjJmA7ZFIey8rFAEUtEXfc17CPupXZWuBn 277/Kb1Qc9f4fWY3GVB05WQvOggI4cLywl4vXsyrRaqTa/mO3sNFXwmRj3NXJVIOrzXO o+8UOtD3o+M71BRLMsLFzHu0wBwWBpBcZjji5VrNER97xE9ZoCx2uxi5umiuBByCtbCR CqXbzIScFwBxHnStYVoxDikmjQh68y/9YKefZJzUEPiLk+TE8dwotHqSDkiqBhxTPB3V TVn3g64Ou5MjJi4KQNagsTQ8vUkbRyWAUlY/Qdj8GeVS2LtZLvsfsta5gOYZoUadPuH3 dvQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9HcjETB4m1XbThzV0uBqa0PZ+SPzXBk3HuAaPnTDhc4=; b=biJtqtXJV7t1E4J455HBDmirvLP2lJdV59OVo/VOL96/5bjMJI89Ozlz3bMRR/BWl8 Cber90yWO04mnLC/yGNNgvzfoC0SaZv6XwFDyns4ra43eHvRHlrli+U4BCZhIKGnltzc oKyrkoUbqRbKR19OdQb3qKmyZ3lJ32i8DAtH4ID7VL67uyNzz06CMAWcFrZbkFYO+2zz yyRJNOKf4wU+4Z6lJnoHenARcBS6kAwKCJL2h/VwQW8i+G/GZOWVmXFoXBAeoFT5D3pE L1dW9LzKA7uXO5sNY9W4PYSsAyaXmvCNSrDg8gN/d+6pQBc01D817VzwrKduEplq3KED qotQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530B8xNCzl+l1rAc6nEjNR0lkoHdwwk+8b5sMxkbDW/1qa0dPNaK 26wV7DlPCmgWDHNVuP6XoJMVMoNe7TslYqI0wWQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxlWhW2R2SEzjBw8DdG1uEkV45ERjzgLRACXjSy82qhZyDZ2jnP3/jrxRKslekyQ5UEnJiAGm6wfdsIxCzlCh4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1243:: with SMTP id o3mr2889105iou.89.1592317926070; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:32:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616144141.6203d978e9bd43418b17dcbc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 10:31:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Chris Knipe Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Polytropon , FreeBSD - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVyb1rjWz45Sl X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=k1xRTqAG; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.03 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.044]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.00)[0.005]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:08 -0000 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:22 AM Chris Knipe wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:06 PM Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > >> Simple - don't email it. If you do, attach it as an attachment (MIME is >>> there for a reason)... >>> >>> There's GIT / CVS / Take your pick for a reason... :-) >>> >> >> If you don't like email then you should not be using FreeBSD because for >> better or worse the community has standardized on email as the primary tech >> support venue and thus absolutely needs to have something that can be used >> to give tech support (including 100% accurate cut and pasting). >> > > And again - there's absolutely -nothing- wrong with that at all, I never > said that there was... Millions of companies provide support to millions of > users every day using email... That being said, I get a 80 character plain > text email from a company as "support," I deem that as unprofessional, and > the email will more than likely just be deleted. We live in modern times, > unfortunately. Presentation matters, whether you like it or not. > > Cut & paste from the attachment, then you won't have any formatting issues > from any MUAs, but I guess it's too much effort to open the attachment. > There's plenty of solutions (UUEncode/BASE64, as you so nicely put it, has > also been trialed and tested over many, many years, just FYI - it also has > the benefit of < 80 characters wide), 80x25 is not one of them, and whether > you like it or not, you will -never- get the world to adhere to a 80 (or 74 > or whatever) character wide email. The world has moved on, deal with it. > Extra and unneeded steps for a properly behaving MUA and but from your point of view this is the very behavior that is *BAD*. > > The fact is, you should be committing your code to a repository, and > checking said code out of said repository when you need it. In an open > source environment, said code is also publicly viewable using any half > decent web browser (I guess GITHUB is also doing it wrong?) No, code > should not be shared via email - and if you do then so be it - your choice, > not a requirement. You don't need to email the code, all you can do is > email a URL to your commit / diff... Again, too much effort to open a URL > right? I forgot that in the old days without GUIs, we couldn't even double > click. I guess you still can't today. > You missed the point completely then. People don't share production/committed code via email they share snippets when asking for debugging help and those are the ones that need to be 100% accurate cut and pasted because some applications/languages care a great deal about whitespace (like python). > Again, it's the minority that is sharing code via email... In fact, I > would say very, very, very little people do it. > If that is what you think you sure have not been on this list (or any other FreeBSD mailing list) for any significant amount of time (people do it everyday here). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Jun 16 14:32:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02B233C11D for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49mVz93mm3z45fW for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:32:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cknipe@savage.za.org) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id a80so10936539ybg.1 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oHU8O30+a20QVL3VVG92vBajLsIyvl5Gq/8mxraRHtE=; b=m4AS6xV9G0ekIoWqVIYc4qVmFmlSOGpY2RmOleo8xxpbA4CMDb0YVazyItXIrrIrNb hUMy1k3A8TCvlxMvTuBSjFxLRk/pn5zcNjj1iY7zwLBGbolMeL1wseaoyL9/yIajBKF3 ZJls92eT7JwH9KTL2i/EvunqG4YIrMQ0wOIgUPiMFzKuZbyb4i1AK6uJ17+OVulKvFwZ l8ruswLwFYAaB2GLAIqxe6LaZ9ZxNeX1fwqUPhFkghPUd0+Vb/hFMED9f/cHmyQLaMQ+ EzCty0sYn7QenBTX2g1BsOApSoXMcQ7ikKdNSTtzbtZPdBhcrgj364ahO0traSHHd55U Vd/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oHU8O30+a20QVL3VVG92vBajLsIyvl5Gq/8mxraRHtE=; b=NZn6/hLUfpAXz+lFDHDK4laynY1fWjiyJiNWNxIXCcgnbC6MXd7xEmMWcv6E23N5Hp 7wPEjO0fd0Ep2KN9lZtlLCfbROu4RSLCpkimrIH7KWH4ikFEqMPYfePsjONGwOg7WpJF oRGwRsSJ2brtZbXsui5Kfv0nQRe6lgTuMfS8NVYAFivn+NxU0S5/m0i+MiKsckkd8+iB 3+3VfN8xiZMMGBLWdKaKVCjagUWNxRO1AYWlq0O/NDu+ogTzLufoXnSmHzTcvN5nOkvL NrS/JPfUClFMZjVfwIZ3aTSxbw0mw3wxoL85ZO2hs2JY2ffi/4EWeOuIGmkR6naBwHwJ 9kWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330JqAcU67pYT6QypYz7Qx6qnDiLhkGa3hACMQZeJZZ8MtXP5w5 J80wd6NPyWeqpltMD97pKgIb91/RBg5I7NSzbwa+cQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyR4hMl3Mg/7NnA69w8+6Q/jx7sogSIWOhLlVoT9e9V3khTf6QbBR04hvG5EaH0/Nmjiz2pfuLf2Sri+1M0Wow= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bd0:: with SMTP id 199mr4705136ybl.329.1592317956595; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 07:32:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200613154409.GA89618@neutralgood.org> <13115.1592302784@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <20200616071153.00006f4d@seibercom.net> <20200616075548.000066f1@seibercom.net> <20200616140416.bd7b8bf2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616142043.7d599458.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200616092901.000002f7@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Knipe Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2020 16:32:25 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailing List Etiquette was freebsd vs. netbsd To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49mVz93mm3z45fW X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=m4AS6xV9; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of cknipe@savage.za.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cknipe@savage.za.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.45 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.041]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.007]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[savage.za.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[savage-za-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.21)[-0.205]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[savage@savage.za.org,cknipe@savage.za.org] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: