From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 07:35:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4488E22FEAC for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:35:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Received: from mail.antonovs.family (mail.antonovs.family [100.25.240.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Fgn56zWwz3Jhn for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:35:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ihor@antonovs.family) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.antonovs.family (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4BB138BAA for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:35:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.antonovs.family ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.antonovs.family [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id sM0Cvnsc6Hic for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:35:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.antonovs.family (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE11138BB3 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:35:31 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.antonovs.family 7BE11138BB3 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=antonovs.family; s=D65AA412-CB7F-11E9-A561-802C9D403B77; t=1581233731; bh=RuwyQbNBji9aw9GTI3vE7v/Z4MOAel+JsUUQfzs9s20=; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:MIME-Version; b=YUvTi50ACvu+koq5uI57uNdV7B1AMYcz6ZdZlUhYry13NhVTiNFZqiuIoIKx15IgU HxR1E71qf+OPpyud5+0LI8a5GKVlyaFu8MaeGbUdxQLbPOHuIsn5r5KvC9i5keYzO7 C+9/s9sYUhXv8wbxAppItYagsfgbcYdfyHGXBEbsLEqbxuVYLhadBMWSdDXJHfGHZe O095vwhhFqn4BE2K8Ng3ZM3BFfQ8QEI+lnejZbn0mGMewW8LcAZ8BQG0y2+vLnNlqs qdzIFe+EmMfQjBZEJixTAnU3qozUz9KJSCrJi0dtudVfDUqbFLjP4HhCwM2n5rh/ce Z1Ny2qSXIi/6g== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at antonovs.family Received: from mail.antonovs.family ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.antonovs.family [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 2BMWkxkvzpmj for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:35:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (c-73-83-210-79.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [73.83.210.79]) by mail.antonovs.family (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 27D68138BAA for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 07:35:31 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 23:35:28 -0800 From: Ihor Antonov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Difficulties of LibreSSL in base Message-ID: <20200209073528.247mb7f4ctvn4w7f@sea-ll-10936> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Fgn56zWwz3Jhn X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=antonovs.family header.s=D65AA412-CB7F-11E9-A561-802C9D403B77 header.b=YUvTi50A; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=antonovs.family; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ihor@antonovs.family designates 100.25.240.195 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ihor@antonovs.family X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.75 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[antonovs.family:s=D65AA412-CB7F-11E9-A561-802C9D403B77]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-3.25)[ip: (-8.95), ipnet: 100.24.0.0/13(-4.22), asn: 14618(-3.04), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[antonovs.family:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[antonovs.family,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14618, ipnet:100.24.0.0/13, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[79.210.83.73.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 07:35:39 -0000 Hi evereyone! I was researching the possibility of building base with LibreSSL (and without OpenSSL) and I found a few outdated references on the wiki [1, 2]. HardenedBSD and LibreBSD [3, 4] projects also seem to have tried following that path. But according to git HardenedBSD have hardly updated LibreSSL in 2 years, and the project does not claim to have LibreBSD in base [5] So before diving into the weeds I decided to ask community what dragons live down that road? What are the challenges? Have anybody succeeded in builing base with LibreSSL with recent version (12 or 13)? And if yes what advice can you give me? Thanks! [1] https://wiki.freebsd.org/LibreSSL#Base [2] https://wiki.freebsd.org/LibreSSL/Base [3] https://github.com/HardenedBSD/hardenedBSD/tree/hardened/current/master/crypto [4] https://github.com/Sp1l/LibreBSD/tree/releng/11.2/crypto [5] https://hardenedbsd.org/content/easy-feature-comparison ------------ Ihor Antonov From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 08:10:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20AE230CB2 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:10:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bennett@sdf.org) Received: from mx.sdf.org (mx.sdf.org [205.166.94.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx.sdf.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48FhXn6Lhzz3KrX for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:10:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bennett@sdf.org) Received: from sdf.org (IDENT:bennett@miku.sdf.org [205.166.94.6]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 01989x48019946 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:09:59 GMT Received: (from bennett@localhost) by sdf.org (8.15.2/8.12.8/Submit) id 01989xgi025440; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 02:09:59 -0600 (CST) From: Scott Bennett Message-Id: <202002090809.01989xgi025440@sdf.org> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 02:09:59 -0600 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re updating BIOS Cc: ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 6/20/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48FhXn6Lhzz3KrX X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bennett@sdf.org has no SPF policy when checking 205.166.94.20) smtp.mailfrom=bennett@sdf.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.32 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.30)[ip: (-0.93), ipnet: 205.166.94.0/24(-0.46), asn: 14361(-0.03), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sdf.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.938,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[20.94.166.205.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14361, ipnet:205.166.94.0/24, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 08:10:03 -0000 On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 21:04:23 +0100 Ralf Mardorf wrote: >On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 20:54:26 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >>On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:24:48 -0800, Martin Glazer wrote: >>>Freedoms is the correct program. I use it. Good luck >> >>FreeDOS probably was required to update a PC BIOS, the time when I >>didn't use a PC, but a C64 or Atari ST. IOW that was a long, long time >>ago. I'm not aware of any 64 bit architecture PC, that requires >>more than a FAT 32 formatted device, to update the BIOS or UEFI thingy. >>IIRC I even updated a decades old 32 bit machine, just by using a FAT >>32 partition. That time the computer just supported PATA (IDE), no SATA >>and I still used a floppy disk for some purposes. AFAIK updates on even >>relatively aged machines doesn't require an operating sytsem at all, it >>could be done by the BIOS and a FAT 32 partitioned device. It's just >>important to read the vendor's hints. Sometimes updating from a very >>old release to the latest release might brick the machine, it might >>be required to upgrade from one release to another and IIRC sometimes >>it could be impossible to downgrade, if an upgrade should suffer from a >>regression. > >FreeDOS is not a program, it's an operating system. The first part of the above, mispunctuated pair of sentences is correct, but the latter part is not. FreeDOS, like PC-DOS and MSDOS before it, is/was not an operating system, but rather a more primitive creature known as a monitor system. It offered no access methods, scheduling, or storage separation (whether through storage protection keys, protective mapping in address translation tables, or some other method), or accounting, any one of which might have been grounds to argue that it was an operating system. >For my Atari ST's 80286 hardware emulator I used DR-DOS >[ https://i.imgur.com/lx5pucp.jpg ]. > I recall only three OS that ran in native protected mode on 80286 machines: IBM's OS/2 version 1, Microport's UNIX System V/AT, and XENIX/AT by...hmmm...I think possibly Micro$lop, but I no longer remember for sure. None of these was terribly usable because of the hardware limitation of potentially thousands of small address spaces per process. All address spaces were limited to a maximum of 65535 bytes in a segment and segments were *not* contiguous in any sense, but were essentially separate address spaces. But they were interesting to play with at the time. Scott Bennett, Comm. ASMELG, CFIAG ********************************************************************** * Internet: bennett at sdf.org *xor* bennett at freeshell.org * *--------------------------------------------------------------------* * "A well regulated and disciplined militia, is at all times a good * * objection to the introduction of that bane of all free governments * * -- a standing army." * * -- Gov. John Hancock, New York Journal, 28 January 1790 * ********************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 08:41:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F49923176B for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:41:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48FjDw1fmnz3M5W for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:41:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581237680; x=1583829680; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=5LaWb4oUaW2xJbbl22uzGcOlMyJsXzzkmkVtGQ0cMJc=; b=ssftAjVKALdz/dwDe0ZPQbqUH2de3oQI0UOc+h2kfllpjzqyvPiJkYcCN5tLyadQ9QiOkY4s3yJJRjVxE+kzOEDJOlYZRZ2yKYW5EHQvgmggkO+8B8Ho6JfR+P0QdWy2xg1UDQGc0d0OZuAfJx9nWNexl/XPVC/tKGy01Gj167A= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi42ZTAwMDAwMmE0Njk4Yy5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r4.h.in.socketlabs.com (s1-b40f.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.180.15]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 9 Feb 2020 03:41:14 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r4.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 9 Feb 2020 03:41:13 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j0i9Q-0006EA-0r for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 08:41:12 +0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:41:11 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re updating BIOS Message-Id: <20200209084111.8d9764a128bab47ee1c19a86@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <202002090809.01989xgi025440@sdf.org> References: <202002090809.01989xgi025440@sdf.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48FjDw1fmnz3M5W X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=ssftAjVK; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.87 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.32), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.63), asn: 7381(0.30), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 08:41:21 -0000 On Sun, 09 Feb 2020 02:09:59 -0600 Scott Bennett wrote: > The first part of the above, mispunctuated pair of sentences is > correct, but the latter part is not. FreeDOS, like PC-DOS and MSDOS > before it, is/was not an operating system, but rather a more primitive > creature known as a monitor system. The DOS part of those names is an abbreviation of 'Disc Operating System' - clearly at the time they were considered operating systems even though they started life as near clones of CP/M (Control Program/Monitor). IBM 360 mainframes didn't have virtual memory, processes or any of the protections you mentioned, it didn't even have anything that would be recognised as a filesystem today (it had record oriented datasets) - but OS360 was definitely considered an operating system. [MS/PC/DR/Free]DOS was a lot more like a mainframe batch operating system than a multi-user multi-tasking operating system such as Multics or unix, but hijacking the term operating system to mean only the latterm, and that only with hardware supported isolation mechanisms is revisionist. I recall working on a unix(ish) system in the late 1980s that didn't have hardware memory mapping or protection, or even fsck which made recovering from (the frequent) crashes rather tedious (icheck, ncheck ...). -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 10:13:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 811AF233B10 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:13:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48FlHW3z3Jz3x4v for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:13:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.37.143]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MsIfc-1joZ3u1ePa-00tmgW; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 11:13:40 +0100 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:13:39 +0100 From: Polytropon To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re updating BIOS Message-Id: <20200209111339.6e42f4b8.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200209084111.8d9764a128bab47ee1c19a86@sohara.org> References: <202002090809.01989xgi025440@sdf.org> <20200209084111.8d9764a128bab47ee1c19a86@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:t85JHYP6PeiMz2hvOXOjrwFST7x9ml0uZ+SXkamu3bQZKSbhDQQ 6zRe5i+D+q4FUCswitSOyc1VzLAlXHiNwwQkN92JbuOBg8DFglLYPVHnjYs0a8/xbLCEgpr xNauZqUcL6l2Pp/3S0B+aBVkZ2V8VNcqwbCGRiEoScBG1xQ01RaiGnxDF4S8es5Xs5XmkHe 6C6oB5y/p+dfUITydXEdg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:4sfXnnB+ZLA=:TA9kjCtMBujg2GsKvAUain ghYJTJFbbWiV9uH2DoipsZFJsMbW7aX//wr2KmP5sewjuuoVap1q1CYYlVIjgsr8PbsYZjzed wCTgcAqeHcjNcRTZG/jeJSlqCadkv8xk1nYQC9g2skj3ViCw2TXIBUoVY9XdyfiPBew9GbYM1 xfiKKBA+L7j51oH7t5la1RH+f027wErp0Yp2aLhuHPogDlN/NoCjCutTdl0ntisQ6FU8rz+Cl 5+Z99Xhe3S8qL02lFqjdjOvHmSSx6rsnuTS/+Vq15P1yCtHf9Jwgy8d4wHbPlB2hCjtAUB2Ie BV1zPCmf6guMyWwDNSxkPOHzmKwysZpQD59fe7vqe/J0eHn3ZlUZhRPKT843TnntcX11azGRW x5r8U6k7vVoLFsdaSxoAjkvYlMckSMBGhveimTXBKP3OxSk7HqjMnSO2wuVN3wYcPgFaV6JnW etryk1ZQvOHYD5BBcyXOsQ+tHcg++9Xtxxlj6n0oOhxKv5xZrpy34gKqpyspsxw4TNZnMPnrM LddIx7BQdPgboCGnMHnCieWocAsi6cZkLoo9/qK2oATlLgOKTW19+rpOx5/PU/svV0QryaD2K ErPaUpg/MGKY0Au8DkJ3D9J79Z4DqpJ24FPCE3RxPoHyvqUHcv3EwMCd7uiUfHzdWhY0eTLI6 RdOvKiJ2pi6tEiTjcrtSK/nqJm+7zWMuTOlN8JtzUDLjgCxAxf4HAJRWMC5HCcMzZ+UX7lmQI fMjPIUydk3nAgzUvpQ6wV7RbQYIySGdvpprlup7B0plqt8Qy/23NJhuXaL9NI1pb0JHG60Kom QUiMBfeyqgw4gV09UVteObUBBU8jQRfr5Pqal7BN03OcNXBrCRpLRB5GL6/ymurAR8QsAzz X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48FlHW3z3Jz3x4v X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.07 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[143.37.8.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.48)[-0.481,0]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.995,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[24.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.16)[ip: (-0.31), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.11), asn: 8560(2.23), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 10:13:45 -0000 On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:41:11 +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 09 Feb 2020 02:09:59 -0600 > Scott Bennett wrote: > > > The first part of the above, mispunctuated pair of sentences is > > correct, but the latter part is not. FreeDOS, like PC-DOS and MSDOS > > before it, is/was not an operating system, but rather a more primitive > > creature known as a monitor system. > > The DOS part of those names is an abbreviation of 'Disc Operating > System' - [...] The common way of spelling here is "disk"; "disc" usually refers to optical media. Smaller disks were called diskettes. For example, the first prominent use of DOS was "IBM Disk Operating System /360", or DOS/360, whose naming convention was later used for microcomputer operating systems based on the use of hard disks or diskettes, even though the "conceptual bowels" of those microcomputer and PC operating systems have more in common with CP/CMS than with DOS/360. > [...] clearly at the time they were considered operating systems even > though they started life as near clones of CP/M (Control Program/Monitor). > IBM 360 mainframes didn't have virtual memory, processes or any of the > protections you mentioned, it didn't even have anything that would be > recognised as a filesystem today (it had record oriented datasets) - but > OS360 was definitely considered an operating system. It even carried that intention in its name. ;-) There are many different criteria (without a common consensus) of what actually makes an operating system. Some consider the compiler a required part of the OS, others don't. Some say that process monitoring and control needs to be part of the OS, others consider it optional. Personally, I'd say that understanding DOS (for the PC) as an operating system is valid, sure, with limited capabilities, but seen in the context of the time it was developed and used, it surely fulfilled the critera usually used in the microcomputer and PC area. > [MS/PC/DR/Free]DOS was a lot more like a mainframe batch operating > system than a multi-user multi-tasking operating system such as Multics or > unix, but hijacking the term operating system to mean only the latterm, and > that only with hardware supported isolation mechanisms is revisionist. I > recall working on a unix(ish) system in the late 1980s that didn't have > hardware memory mapping or protection, or even fsck which made recovering > from (the frequent) crashes rather tedious (icheck, ncheck ...). A little sidenote regarding terminology in context of history: If I remember correctly, early versions of CP/M, which is the primary predecessor of all the DOSes, inherited a lot from CP/CMS, an operating system typically run using the VM operating system (we would probably call VM/370 a hypervisor today), even though it was possible, at least for some time, to run CMS on bare metal. During further development, it became dependent on VM. The user-facing part of CMS was the CP, the control program (that's why CP/CMS means "control program / conversational monitor system). It had things later known in CP/M, such as the dialog-oriented command line interface, and "Minidisks" - those became "drive letters" in CP/M, as well as filenames associated with specific data sets (mamaged through VM and its virtualization of storage and access). Later, DOS inherited the drive letters and many other conceptual ideas from CP/M. So - yes, the past is still alive. NB: DOSes = plural of DOS; DOS/ES = an operating system. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 11:30:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADE52358E5 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:30:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-yw1-xc30.google.com (mail-yw1-xc30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Fn042NFVz41sV for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:30:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-yw1-xc30.google.com with SMTP id f204so2055031ywc.10 for ; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 03:30:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=+OiUiwEatLz+LCA5SX0wplCgqGhDzfXygU6Q5kw4qOc=; b=cmTnY1Ur5/sG2qGAuSXExcq92av8mmw10/OA+A+jSUOo4mmUq5FrkAliq2UfkDhEr1 ycWXaN4I/Wsz1uOErB61A7odUJtRHbTrl2maNPlkejsQgRpzSyefVYHFFrmNc19ZXWHZ XUNKxbdP0FC4NoA/MbvsgdhptNYQxuiK+Y9FQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=+OiUiwEatLz+LCA5SX0wplCgqGhDzfXygU6Q5kw4qOc=; b=tE9RYeqJoegYdr3GWcEYO7cMbmRaazv7eaenIjo+WrVaAwLTS9GF5fifZgJuGeqKX7 5cXcrgUcsV0GPO0Xvg3lh1EaJBKyMwHdXrpe1L+wlWgmGV//vVOq3eWKr1sR3Zlr+Qap QDs02FLWU8FoOeywPEP+7Oag/XkhzouNJ+Ljzfps7wcPtOAe0yKMwMd4ydI3YHyGxw4P IRiBQFZPLfFNpLb5FJms8wZ2eDl5/it5iA82sVGVtpKuLNCl+5abnv3Hh7xLkTal4nFh Tmh/t+8sexKMOEbRtFBWzEWvFNl3BlL5OSzklKW6iBFmR/hbDnRVv+6wmCHUGJLxQ8y/ F+Mg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUXqwGBwOWN8w1egFAVcmXW2+yI8DRGJBaznKExdkdGpVTs2n6V im1FKuKbyHL97QJheT+r3cqrIVdxu88= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxX9ZKrte68lFnVf7SCKXy3ZPyF9NAncooKzq8mX1wf9+L6nw3ewWDY+BA4N0SKb56AqbUkig== X-Received: by 2002:a81:b660:: with SMTP id h32mr6427463ywk.166.1581247826874; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 03:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i72sm3817094ywg.49.2020.02.09.03.30.25 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 09 Feb 2020 03:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (HP-ENVY [192.168.0.102]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48Fn0014ghz2KNf for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 06:30:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 06:30:05 -0500 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re updating BIOS Message-ID: <20200209063005.00007ba2@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200209111339.6e42f4b8.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <202002090809.01989xgi025440@sdf.org> <20200209084111.8d9764a128bab47ee1c19a86@sohara.org> <20200209111339.6e42f4b8.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; i686-w64-mingw32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/6fG1b8aK05Y7._OnKzT5EiH"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Fn042NFVz41sV X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=cmTnY1Ur; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.17 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.57)[ip: (-9.11), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-1.97), asn: 15169(-1.73), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[250.225.109.174.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 11:30:29 -0000 --Sig_/6fG1b8aK05Y7._OnKzT5EiH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:13:39 +0100, Polytropon commented: >On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:41:11 +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sun, 09 Feb 2020 02:09:59 -0600 >> Scott Bennett wrote: This thread has gone completely off track and no longer has anything to do with the mechanics of updating a BIOS in a FreeBSD environment. I would suggest it be moved to a new theater if further discussion is desired. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/6fG1b8aK05Y7._OnKzT5EiH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl4/7UUACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRO+Af/e1KjoTkBSlwJf2zgdwekvkyP760HYGWyxGCjz+RdoABvXK9UkbMC+VdP sXwbQ7uBNHwnXr1ZoW6APTtab5iQ2c053iouRgWJxOBu0LdhwfNU7spKAxxHGPiP N2hldcVLmmNkHRnuv8J4wiJd467h1UvpptaNzVIjpshbgrFhQXmxl57jE2XwhEIx CaVOADVR096I1aDMX77rwGxjHyHvN69oBA2irRoaiGGzms6AXCS6kbkBLoyE2Rpi 2TOlikgOvvWYfoTRq604FRaGR4zbn606rVHcEmuCFG5TMPOqVmBepi4Tm3N7xvxr mKWq9n2HM/mHCB7IExwzRG7dxzPJhQ== =hdNL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/6fG1b8aK05Y7._OnKzT5EiH-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 11:52:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8C6236152 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:52:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic314-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic314-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48FnTQ45vHz42tk for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:52:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: lXlLu_YVM1n12Sj_zoVTplf5ubUxOFIgeIyLAoDFdClYfqPwJlods1D8mncUfj5 xANJorVvM9fmnMuKyOroyMEB4EHy.JylTGf0b725yCcZBhhPaeHnxeEJK12viIdGYNqaKwxLsItR XkSjul2lV5POBo1PBcy9D8zRaCtwW50YEuAJAgqw.jBDHuBPYRrb7hoaLlXbkYrYbpS_U4ErMg3T kHYcAt2cx5l0nYuZgGCijB7Jm2f6pTSf8VdJgW42OA5tOMUNo_77jeYswhe20K2m__YsRVVCwcPV WpW.jEw7LF7NCytjM6K7RkUZp4Ki_H4L7hn_rN2et5H4vlZK0jZS.hdqX.ydBxnP_QyEkU5Az22g _VM7DEIE7wZOyjJ.ssoMylosDAHY.ndtbAuyKSQV6y5jpBHloNShgr82Fc1TZVVQUlDWcF5UtyIf QdzyKjkjm5VNgKsyXLSWz.CyhdExSPv0kjigqhNU1dEkszoKKecaTIu4rgtms1qFM0uoJMiviwfB tWFoQzJrL5F.byZwnYRNvqpkD9_WUmr_mKFiOcmk7tI_H7Pk3MzObsllumNir_OZVmhHvoinlizw cps06aRHb9o77ckNnBfZy8RbIMNqBw6AOgX1dCxGnEaR6r3tAU4Ag01l.cgUrSp4yQAzmXVobKqQ fSnMIEhrdhQQ.Kzb_8WgEupw8sans3jk5UE5i3ufNhqFA3fUfMvM0u1UUzISnjH.EKYgU_0zfK3a 7zq761.fEkaaxD6mvuglbByfPSfTTRuZ3QUlYeTPZXtaXkZ9D8NNcxv_moEuDUZe.Zz7Zy089sYI f6S5ZkpNPylMzPP7VBVptqQP1m_DFUuK.HCMTQzpzcomb3GVTEidBgp0zKf2MUm7UmKudGNOGpWn uvWouhlF9TDxZL2yupb.pO9gsmrff9HjIJMAP6EgLO2jud3hj3qD94yTTPKg5r.sgrKQuqQ7Mrtl mNXsDeRXxGtGoAcwxLQNq5f2t.mtEgowwtcpQnvciMyGOw_9s4szooVksYO0mSScYbOqmWHMrZ3U lqXNjiSHdO81ONyIebkkzu5kV.8Mqfo0CYKWJx5B.vE88iOmr5cu5QnzOWqHajRhD8HYA9QvTWTe jxewEO.yg9uPDfd.B0w84BLEPTAnB4bllDKxMAFy2BNxHfEGOsGEqU.nX4FDJGoKX7cfG8Xv.q3p RxuvhmqW8Nsr_DY.VDG3KtSpvT0piRIQOHEzIIDpn9r8mFrVzJIkFIDzqnbYzrlO0QX0aIpxLQfN YveVKaJxA.OoLN9TZB7mhXD_WSLBcT7Tf5SegFRxkXKhAVJKatYQi599v4nzNsqlttj2WO.UWsCW qKsSc7KK9J1sVkdOt65sQiLbMnpr7SxHOa3jLFAOQo7SCZpJs8KnBrLgSSEaEThbve9XAQVQIIRq f6lj4K0UBNoFC Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:52:24 +0000 Received: by smtp419.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 93e66e3afcfae43d1e64f1a0a433bf84; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 11:52:21 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:52:24 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re updating BIOS Message-ID: <20200209125224.5d533471@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200209111339.6e42f4b8.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <202002090809.01989xgi025440@sdf.org> <20200209084111.8d9764a128bab47ee1c19a86@sohara.org> <20200209111339.6e42f4b8.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48FnTQ45vHz42tk X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.08)[-0.081,0]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.47)[0.471,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[145.177.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (5.45), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.17), asn: 34010(1.71), country: GB(-0.08)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[145.177.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 11:52:27 -0000 On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:41:11 +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >[MS/PC/DR/Free]DOS was a lot more like a mainframe batch >operating system than a multi-user multi-tasking operating system such >as Multics or unix, but hijacking the term operating system to mean >only the latterm, and that only with hardware supported isolation >mechanisms is revisionist. On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:13:39 +0100, Polytropon wrote: >Personally, I'd say that understanding DOS (for the PC) as an >operating system is valid, sure, with limited capabilities, >but seen in the context of the time it was developed and used, >it surely fulfilled the critera usually used in the microcomputer >and PC area. Hi, I still disagree with Scott. IMO Steve and Polytropon put it straight. Is a biological virus (not a computer virus) a form of life or a thing? It depends on the definition of living things and things, as well as the understanding of different kinds of viruses. To me the "importance" and the "impact" in a historical context are part of a definition. To me MS- and DR-DOS are operating systems and to me a biological virus is a life form, even while I'm aware, that a virus doesn't fit to almost all definitions of a life form. Regards, Ralf From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 14:23:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF90223A699 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 14:23:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from graahnul.grom@ya.ru) Received: from forward101o.mail.yandex.net (forward101o.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::601]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48FrqW3Scgz4CLq for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 14:23:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from graahnul.grom@ya.ru) Received: from mxback19o.mail.yandex.net (mxback19o.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::70]) by forward101o.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 11E953C003AF for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 17:23:15 +0300 (MSK) Received: from myt6-efff10c3476a.qloud-c.yandex.net (myt6-efff10c3476a.qloud-c.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:c12:13a3:0:640:efff:10c3]) by mxback19o.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id Rm17UmUMBy-NE4mCjKw; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 17:23:15 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ya.ru; s=mail; t=1581258195; bh=SrTn+Vq0ziHYtoDu3bX9RUDvBbeU9Zhc1m5Zz5diRBM=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:Message-ID; b=d6263EFTchu6gc8c/N8dwPenCSfi+H1KtS8p2hQhNaAKN7/vOoXPlOq+M5wdR8BQZ GtnNJcYKSgLuWPf2m24M7vzokfYiMuVoR48yTQFhXRyEoubGp2ddKSQNDmTF9OfxUd ZrjGdQEfvZv5tPWcdMTTChTbX3rcWIVZLif1ZcW0= Received: by myt6-efff10c3476a.qloud-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id Uv6ycKgK6A-NE3SoX9X; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 17:23:14 +0300 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client certificate not present) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 17:23:12 +0300 From: dmn To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: No sound by default on FreeBSD-12.1-p2-amd64 Message-ID: <20200209172312.5fa99031@demon> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.3) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48FrqW3Scgz4CLq X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ya.ru header.s=mail header.b=d6263EFT; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ya.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of graahnul.grom@ya.ru designates 2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::601 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=graahnul.grom@ya.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a02:6b8:0:1000::/52]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[ya.ru]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ya.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ya.ru,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.69), ipnet: 2a02:6b8::/32(-4.74), asn: 13238(-3.82), country: RU(0.01)]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[ya.ru]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:2a02:6b8::/32, country:RU]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FAKE_REPLY(1.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ya.ru:s=mail]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.0.6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.d.2.a.1.0.0.0.0.8.b.6.0.2.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 14:23:20 -0000 Hi Dmitrii, I've found that you reported this problem (with the same hardware: DN2820FYKH, NUC5PPYH) back in 2016 on the TrueOS github issue tracker [1], and it was solved with sysctl dev.hdac.0.polling=1. So, does this problem start to appear again only with the latest FreeBSD release (12.1)? Did you try to reproduce it on TrueOS recently? [1] https://github.com/trueos/trueos-core/issues/8 Regards, Dmitry. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 16:31:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD94E23CBCD for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpostolov@yandex.ru) Received: from forward103j.mail.yandex.net (forward103j.mail.yandex.net [5.45.198.246]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48FvgH1MyZz4JXG for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:31:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpostolov@yandex.ru) Received: from mxback27g.mail.yandex.net (mxback27g.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:327]) by forward103j.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id D3D33674005C for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:31:19 +0300 (MSK) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by mxback27g.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id 3eZEcIUM4z-VJFOs1ku; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 19:31:19 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1581265879; bh=ZP/iDHpb6pA3hs5mikfPVcl3TclU8ptTNbJCwAryS+w=; h=References:Date:Message-Id:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=ZE1Dj0HZ9cuzEQ4+MSa61awFtQ4eL3IOgVANTkvEP/oUaJ5xAOEAOZcKIuJrurGZs RgY3HT25yelusYO8B534JhQPPsOIU41M4G5CVtigGcjuHYvoZyh9NvXa3KauBaodpI 2IKluHHqdWYLH8opLp/k8x8KtanHdpYEgdLHwjtY= Received: by iva4-35f072fa8e4e.qloud-c.yandex.net with HTTP; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 19:31:19 +0300 From: Dmitrii Postolov To: dmn , "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" In-Reply-To: <20200209172312.5fa99031@demon> References: <20200209172312.5fa99031@demon> Subject: Re: No sound by default on FreeBSD-12.1-p2-amd64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Yamail [ http://yandex.ru ] 5.0 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 21:31:19 +0500 Message-Id: <11160531581265879@iva4-35f072fa8e4e.qloud-c.yandex.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48FvgH1MyZz4JXG X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yandex.ru header.s=mail header.b=ZE1Dj0HZ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=yandex.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpostolov@yandex.ru designates 5.45.198.246 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dpostolov@yandex.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yandex.ru]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:5.45.192.0/19]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yandex.ru:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yandex.ru,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[ya.ru]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[246.198.45.5.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yandex.ru]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:5.45.192.0/18, country:RU]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yandex.ru.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yandex.ru:s=mail]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[246.198.45.5.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.56), ipnet: 5.45.192.0/18(-4.86), asn: 13238(-3.82), country: RU(0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 16:31:24 -0000 Hi Dmitry, No, this is issue not only for latest FreeBSD 12.1, this is problem for all versions of FreeBSD. TrueOS Project for FreeBSD (12-STABLE) was closed at previous year, but the problem remained in 2019 with TrueOS. Also the problem remained with FuryBSD based on FreeBSD 12.0. I can accept the artifacts of sound under the FreeBSD after dev.hdac.0.polling=1, it just surprises me that under all other OS they are not. 09.02.2020, 19:23, "dmn" : > Hi Dmitrii, > > I've found that you reported this problem (with the same > hardware: DN2820FYKH, NUC5PPYH) back in 2016 on the TrueOS > github issue tracker [1], and it was solved with sysctl > dev.hdac.0.polling=1. So, does this problem start to appear > again only with the latest FreeBSD release (12.1)? Did you > try to reproduce it on TrueOS recently? > > [1] https://github.com/trueos/trueos-core/issues/8 > > Regards, > Dmitry. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" --- best regards, Dmitrii Postolov dpostolov@yandex.ru From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 19:30:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C4F23FFE6 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:30:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (ns.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "dreamchaser.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48FzfF4FJqz4Rw1 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:30:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from breakaway.dreamchaser.org (breakaway [192.168.151.122]) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 019JUhZ2050320 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:30:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) To: FreeBSD Mailing List Reply-To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org From: Gary Aitken Subject: can't build port because thinks amd64 is i386? Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:29:23 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (nightmare.dreamchaser.org [192.168.151.101]); Sun, 09 Feb 2020 12:30:43 -0700 (MST) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48FzfF4FJqz4Rw1 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@dreamchaser.org designates 66.109.141.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@dreamchaser.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.50 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@dreamchaser.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dreamchaser.org]; IP_SCORE(-3.20)[ip: (-8.38), ipnet: 66.109.128.0/19(-4.19), asn: 21947(-3.35), country: US(-0.05)]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:21947, ipnet:66.109.128.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 19:30:47 -0000 Trying to build darktable on an amd64 machine: uname -a FreeBSD breakaway.dreamchaser.org 11.3-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 11.3-RELEASE-p6 #0: Tue Jan 28 09:37:40 UTC 2020 root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 dmesg: CPU: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 970 Processor (3511.82-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin="AuthenticAMD" Id=0x100f43 Family=0x10 Model=0x4 Stepping=3 Features=0x178bfbff Features2=0x802009 AMD Features=0xee500800 AMD Features2=0x837ff SVM: NP,NRIP,NAsids=64 TSC: P-state invariant /usr/ports/graphics/darktable # make ===> darktable-2.4.2 is only for amd64, while you are running i386 (reason: uses SSE instructions and 64-bit address space). hints? Thanks, Gary From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 19:53:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BCA2406B7 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:53:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48G07v14gTz4SsR for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:52:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1581277978; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=8ArcHHHr3EMqackcbqOuTE2hM9M=; b=SMLOwKZPzc8ss/Kq5m+pvq0f/AYdF3PvmxAf4Kz+wf4OEKFZ4QJlSZBSpJDddwvS OrTr/b4+8k3RGfy2j+JvxHKNqcWxJAcACkyLge7t1PMHTxvwkUiqXz7uXz75ilFb 2fUuVfooMRDr9onHeEvElSlbOtSUz+tgAl4Bcz/Gpix5CUaETKO3+Ld+/78+7nF6 G0Ztj1dXBE51HbC+NFjuvNFFZu3aphrHnM0wPx4ls5XUHzIc9Y7fk0tM0T+/Pai0 0Y6uv5dcl5usYISWRm9ob2HhR0y13G3Sj/ZI6rkEaxGw02XiLBPNFylAcl0Ied2g giGu81T3rBPc7wGZ45ojyQ==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Z/aS40ZA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=l697ptgUJYAA:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=0wQVMjYSAAAA:8 a=s9oXJcMGAAAA:8 a=sIt-5M63AAAA:8 a=Frp4ni5z5bywvbmY3IwA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=ibV0ZHtNwtz4ncopG1mI:22 a=cNNliUDrGJfcKjVfkxUC:22 a=9lllHE19to-vvezgg3ZZ:22 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:33727] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 70/D9-09594-913604E5; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 14:52:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24128.25369.350821.469545@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 14:52:57 -0500 From: Robert Huff To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: can't build port because thinks amd64 is i386? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48G07v14gTz4SsR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=SMLOwKZP; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.57 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.47)[ip: (-9.29), ipnet: 69.168.97.0/24(1.08), asn: 36271(0.89), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[78.97.168.69.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 19:53:00 -0000 Gary Aitken writes: > Trying to build darktable on an amd64 machine: > > uname -a > FreeBSD breakaway.dreamchaser.org 11.3-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 11.3-RELEASE-p6 #0: Tue Jan 28 09:37:40 UTC 2020 root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 FreeBSD jerusalem.litteratus.org 13.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 13.0-CURRENT #0 r354131: Mon Oct 28 17:27:33 EDT 2019 huff@jerusalem.litteratus.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/JERUSALEM amd64 > dmesg: > CPU: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 970 Processor (3511.82-MHz 686-class CPU) > Origin="AuthenticAMD" Id=0x100f43 Family=0x10 Model=0x4 Stepping=3 > Features=0x178bfbff > Features2=0x802009 > AMD Features=0xee500800 > AMD Features2=0x837ff > SVM: NP,NRIP,NAsids=64 > TSC: P-state invariant CPU: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 940 Processor (3015.18-MHz K8-class CPU) Origin="AuthenticAMD" Id=0x100f42 Family=0x10 Model=0x4 Stepping=2 Features=0x178bfbff Features2=0x802009 AMD Features=0xee500800 AMD Features2=0x37ff SVM: NP,NRIP,NAsids=64 TSC: P-state invariant I suggest this is a problem with your machine? Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 20:11:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D687240CA0 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 20:11:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48G0Xm71SBz4TjT for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 20:11:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581279065; x=1583871065; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=pdBKIvCX6b2QiHYDCSp4hBIK/8S/BqJS+WoRN32sjLA=; b=Noc6wpX2AfViq2R1v0306LgPXd0jsI/ceGAM8dycuztngT3v/PGP/8VdEQk7DOdEnByKkmDMt40miSfIeKAE0VsrT4BoRgPMkP8IfheoK1WHEVXEbnZ4hgwjmwCcxPyIU001IzkA17SVRJ9Vkw1lyKoogL4EMSnlAG/lGpRExlU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi42ZTAwMDAwMmIzM2VkMC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.13]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 15:11:00 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 9 Feb 2020 15:11:00 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j0suw-0008mc-8a; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 20:10:58 +0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 20:10:58 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: can't build port because thinks amd64 is i386? Message-Id: <20200209201058.06325e19cf0c77fcf0f21508@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48G0Xm71SBz4TjT X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=Noc6wpX2; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.975,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.32), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.62), asn: 7381(0.30), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 20:11:06 -0000 On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:29:23 -0700 Gary Aitken wrote: > Trying to build darktable on an amd64 machine: > > uname -a > FreeBSD breakaway.dreamchaser.org 11.3-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 11.3-RELEASE-p6 > #0: Tue Jan 28 09:37:40 UTC 2020 > #root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 --------------------------------------------------------------------^^^^ uname -a FreeBSD holdall 11.3-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 11.3-RELEASE-p6 #0: Tue Jan 28 09:55:39 UTC 2020 root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64 Spot the difference -------------------------------------^^^^^ You're running a 32 bit version of FreeBSD on your amd64 processor so it is running as a 32 bit system. Download and install the amd64 version and all will be well. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 21:35:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF32243741 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 21:35:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (ns.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "dreamchaser.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48G2QD13tQz4ZT7 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 21:35:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from breakaway.dreamchaser.org (breakaway [192.168.151.122]) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 019LZTJD050584; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 14:35:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Reply-To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org Subject: Re: can't build port because thinks amd64 is i386? To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <20200209201058.06325e19cf0c77fcf0f21508@sohara.org> From: Gary Aitken Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 14:34:10 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD i386; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200209201058.06325e19cf0c77fcf0f21508@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (nightmare.dreamchaser.org [192.168.151.101]); Sun, 09 Feb 2020 14:35:29 -0700 (MST) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48G2QD13tQz4ZT7 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@dreamchaser.org designates 66.109.141.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@dreamchaser.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@dreamchaser.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dreamchaser.org]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:21947, ipnet:66.109.128.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-3.17)[ip: (-8.31), ipnet: 66.109.128.0/19(-4.15), asn: 21947(-3.32), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 21:35:34 -0000 On 2/9/20 1:10 PM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 12:29:23 -0700 > Gary Aitken wrote: > >> Trying to build darktable on an amd64 machine: >> >> uname -a >> FreeBSD breakaway.dreamchaser.org 11.3-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 11.3-RELEASE-p6 >> #0: Tue Jan 28 09:37:40 UTC 2020 >> #root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------^^^^ > > uname -a > FreeBSD holdall 11.3-RELEASE-p6 FreeBSD 11.3-RELEASE-p6 #0: Tue Jan 28 > 09:55:39 UTC 2020 > root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64 > > Spot the difference -------------------------------------^^^^^ > > You're running a 32 bit version of FreeBSD on your amd64 processor > so it is running as a 32 bit system. Download and install the amd64 version > and all will be well. Ah, thank you. It was an emergency rebuild and upgrade from a memory stick that must have been for another machine. Thanks. Gary From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Feb 9 21:58:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A7DF2440FA for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 21:58:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48G2wf4YS7z4bW9 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 21:58:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id z125so2677720ybf.9 for ; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 13:58:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:reply-to:organization:face :mime-version; bh=qWz9eHRyQlAnC+SuSx74xM3F93HuXzCuLrKo5/Hx6uI=; b=BlrY2jElAfNSCqaXW2SnhAHseqAGHYvqh6qT08ePtpFQCkebJ8QmVRmWxrQ5AsOE4+ BNhA/IzWDTHZySRYazbB6vxkSAY5L1m8FMF9A1PgAKUg50thW0JR+AAm4JvOxRsfVe5u VMCMef2TItsNqkRijdmhApT6tV2vc53jyNzyw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:reply-to :organization:face:mime-version; bh=qWz9eHRyQlAnC+SuSx74xM3F93HuXzCuLrKo5/Hx6uI=; b=KU1p4YwRjbUiCbjZb4rHBxr+h2gNMXt4WOT7x/Y6EyVZazKajQ2CGALRoVmpA0xWE7 v3IuqbtCn4lbmmp43hJqbyTTXhTBN/Sf3NZ7E5jkU1C1LlC0ptdrprV7yFHLAPmAzqFz zQ0yw7UdcD+Q7RUvgtHI90WrtakbPWjzaV/oc+8LFU3CQOj8wMyE6+Po8CBkwmb0q7fr p3GEnojk9d//ZYzUC9B4BDE0J9kZIYu7JH17knl9TAW99tZkD2T0++ghrs0ejrwhN3sg TjtiKl6znbjGCLUUnKTWiC4tha2moFcRDDmQ3L1xjnWm0vKyllNp9GPK5UBf5ik5xU5g om/w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU8wdyPqDUGH+ZV89swA+RjYk7EIiXBNWtC3A9FAisAeo7nFGIl nq234UHUsv/IyJ5rSs7dF6bUO48Rtas= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyUNt0AkuJH49uC9+l/d6TFoSckcTGkiIMJw2xas4nnAFBdm51FNGnfzgb6eLEpFOWqobuO9g== X-Received: by 2002:a25:660a:: with SMTP id a10mr8053818ybc.441.1581285505417; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 13:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q6sm4553107ywc.102.2020.02.09.13.58.24 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 09 Feb 2020 13:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48G2wb2M0Dz1BHN for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:58:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:58:15 -0500 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Problem with poudriere and 'BATCH' Message-ID: <20200209165815.506f490a@scorpio> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.3) Face: 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 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/r=EL+Zn/dK.vF4U.pP+O3Ph"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48G2wf4YS7z4bW9 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=BlrY2jEl; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.73 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.63)[ip: (-9.38), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-1.97), asn: 15169(-1.73), country: US(-0.05)]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[250.225.109.174.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[a.2.b.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 21:58:28 -0000 --Sig_/r=EL+Zn/dK.vF4U.pP+O3Ph Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am attempting to build the "print/hplip-plugin" port via poudriere. When I attempt to do so, I am greeted with this message: [00:00:07] Ignoring print/hplip-plugin | hplip-plugin-3.19.12: License HPLI= P_PLUGIN needs confirmation, but BATCH is defined I have never encountered this before. How, other than building it sans poud= riere, do I accomplish it. Thanks! --=20 Jerry --Sig_/r=EL+Zn/dK.vF4U.pP+O3Ph Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl5AgHgACgkQOHMGOIfe xWT0igf/ZkDMfqPqI71YPIlMOdRogHM3tolqBvThdd7L7tMTR7cD2cZjnNos5CVA CXp+38TvwmKVthGfGN5obKdBY4LX0PnPN0cJm7OsYBb4WEIw66eSczqtE3anCKp7 YDHUS9vdl8CpnS+TraGraLVp7VGU/i8q+SYIL/S9evdBLKDXEKjgA3RLN2bJT5ga cuZJD4y9MrQwQV8I6Z/2hKR24KjDKfmYqT69ImXf043rDiV4tLwpkX4NgrgVyVbI aD2gW7w/3VwX6XADZ08KFeAoaumh1STn+Fsxw1nD7DmmCSEAePlw4kSRfJG9B5Uf TjPhCCalFlSdyjrjmwij2bnc0R4QFA== =IWTw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/r=EL+Zn/dK.vF4U.pP+O3Ph-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 06:12:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A6522EE8C for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:12:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GFvB5t2Hz42rd for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:12:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.19.213]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N79ly-1jYsfo2RAq-017XYS for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:12:52 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:12:52 +0100 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem with poudriere and 'BATCH' Message-Id: <20200210071252.ed87d7d4.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200209165815.506f490a@scorpio> References: <20200209165815.506f490a@scorpio> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1zfsQ8ezo+3TtVm3XoZckHjVRwP7auKuLzehulrFEIs5HRX4Hwh 9Szke00ioJbYbFkDMDsRFtnNOswAokLplls3gtIE6HZ0jmKJAWZv9AwI6kInDF8OCCip+Eh uKZnYuH6BE4F/qT0DvFe58+ABWguvhly7gmg+nirznp66cmRHNGF0USvVjS0SC5fI8kJPJZ /8aMPHs51/ig5sZz+VU3Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Jh8S7o0kOkg=:fvj+v0dBkm67wAbEMQY966 hMVqjjuHSFkem/d8xj9rDWBRS6+5vxyA9uTuSH4w6WtFmxHNP2o9qW4nIAw+IXgn484DLmH9s 888JWPPAiGIa0hlE4Jf7dOG8f5KoUsxfCHXvohprv3bG0xUnk8OGDTWrLKOu/ceTsB5z4vv27 NN12Y3MzmAJGrvHVDQfmPBMeL7jAXMa8VpEKfmdLDI79joDU7ICk6gb92i96h6c239v6G0HKI cfDsE3NpfPFscyS6c0CrtdMfbXkD9ZuFh1UQNWRzCZb4qrRqL9WmT5S8gp14cXpVzyzTHyWLr k/uYaZvql+0Z+koqOn1GqLgKecCIQoo/S4lSbxhnzGj34x9wwt3PWGVSf3YU/PNPVv5beyxfM RqNkDZdQtprrrJIZgEc4uZaowCdUzx84oa3j1lcgZ5xMwXoNOKP72DKCN00gJDUbX6rJqT00a 9yLeAJ+yCadMmJ3mIFD9TXds+AJjqq56duopNK5UTvXSUNArUkYDgk3bIVKZWRajoL7mhgzf2 YrquRegpvQr0fzuMWlYYfmr3Wli6z38SU/wjJ0i9extqX29EMV01PjQVz2alFOgaZWB4eu4PX BUOoTQMF6hHBAwv5F5PlGBsBhp+eQNAO2ObsAQPmddOyKrU7dC5bwK9HaXO4seFBGXMdZkSN9 UGjb3r3o5rEQ7nH2rpHfVsK4uKaLEKd7VwdJeKu9wsRlP1sUXtThonbcAq54lG4Xv22CR0Cm8 F8lkcuJaiMMJ+c64rBxrDUR198u///XhzoOpkbnpao6pYdy8EHDHzUeJ+zpuC0yBDPi6BTT0P 6C+Eiv14elO0ND4QbF/n9EQfF/SFgET+wSfyO0jyDZn4zes0gM2BZCEgDf0Dn4gCiDM4diW X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GFvB5t2Hz42rd X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:12:55 -0000 On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:58:15 -0500, Jerry wrote: > I am attempting to build the "print/hplip-plugin" port via poudriere. > When I attempt to do so, I am greeted with this message: > > [00:00:07] Ignoring print/hplip-plugin | hplip-plugin-3.19.12: > License HPLIP_PLUGIN needs confirmation, but BATCH is defined > > I have never encountered this before. This is only needed for ports where there is a licensing restriction that requires you to interactively express your consent with the licensing terms. Regular ports do not require this and can therefore be built in batch mode. However, there are a few ports that need this kind of interaction. > How, other than building it sans poudriere, do I accomplish it. In /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/make.conf, try the following: DISABLE_LICENSES=yes Sadly, I didn't find proper documentation of this option (not in "man 5 make.conf", not in poudriere's material). Maybe it can be found in some locally accessible example file? Please report back if it worked. If it does, I'd say it's worth being included in official poudriere configuration (exept it already is, and I just didn't find it). ;-) References: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2019-July/285853.html https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/failing-to-compile-audio-teamspeak3-server-with-poudriere.48194/ -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 07:03:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24FFF2305A9 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:03:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hamdi20193d@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe31.google.com (mail-vs1-xe31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GH240cq5z452r for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:03:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hamdi20193d@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe31.google.com with SMTP id x18so3444195vsq.4 for ; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 23:03:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=iM/fid5ll6tS41+dkbiGugzLxltmDvZrrWlv9yXd45c=; b=k+90uKYmvZrdpW2CkehBYFGtbmJokAvM4b32TMTg6n+s/E5D9Rbt18+KlXde2Eh0s6 MytcTx8uzrVk+vmshPenAp0qP+MjbUQx1+9H2UD5JV6NXjrZYeZ3zkBxxVV4By+1n/10 FyBsl/AWTgJkR/sBFo4sCsLozlZzWX3IFAbGVYss8eT56m1M7nC/5tIOrXUW6zI8tJw1 yJt81EdxWblHBc79BcCeqb8O/2UmNUk3IeSiKHtoiFcCX/Ye58VmNLFHnYNeg2c1hplz s5eASr7vDAeja9NOQGQn0x6wPqrs/sN/QgSS/XJd+TLF+hmhkRL6CS7iCQKRlCG9QopT 2ozw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=iM/fid5ll6tS41+dkbiGugzLxltmDvZrrWlv9yXd45c=; b=ZsGuDQSBu7VkOC0tTYVXMkcHuimOJ2/bH0hNzzdJx9EOGdFCZG4/uHHm1FJu1IyKvD 2qnp6l1smJbRlL3tQKjImrGZBzTJUJXacKG/LrvMR4RVCurCFb0WSgAZxUPPAR/RU12I WRssf5DYg9uW1UoS8LvyqnZQp3Qqy09IOOYygAT0Bim1XsrqPeTyMFrCUn0t/ZpB3+iN RggMZBGk/thYKUfQQ8vbtxiQcpgqye53jTTWpb9lTd1E4B6oUDf+ZZcNaKwwsVmBO3qS OmyRGux+5WasVGWSSpUkLVl7OTID3l57im5Nsu4HBroYr+KI1jSpjV2e82e8MpDAoFZI /xeA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWAkPW4Ra771hNJ4viFbwrCwpEX7AJpBjujSHbh1NG0NqSfQU1p aeAnjnCESJuWPrjUFeYXx8q3YyhlKbKG86jWIQ+ilzGR X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyAmpYjU5eXUC7VhEfZp3N6bx5NR7TACh9to7XpdR+kh1zMV44UztyHN9ukG9XmQvS/C15nyz+eQcJ2q09NxpU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:485:: with SMTP id n5mr5545768vsa.149.1581318234785; Sun, 09 Feb 2020 23:03:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andreas X Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:03:44 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Quickly ban an IP IPFW? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GH240cq5z452r X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=k+90uKYm; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hamdi20193d@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hamdi20193d@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.e.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.65), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-1.97), asn: 15169(-1.73), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:03:57 -0000 I have IPFW enabled like follows: firewall_enable="YES" firewall_quiet="YES" firewall_type="workstation" firewall_logdeny="NO" firewall_allowservices="any" firewall_myservices="53/tcp 53/udp 10025/tcp 10024/tcp 25/tcp 993/tcp 995/tcp 465/tcp 587/tcp 5665/tcp 80/tcp 443/tcp 2053/tcp 3306/tcp" (No rules file, the ones above suits my needs perfectly) How to quickly (and permanently) ban an IP using IPFW without having any log? There's an IP address scanning almost all my services 24/7, would like to permanently ban. Thanks. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 07:19:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D22230954 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eriklauritsen@yandex.com) Received: from forward105p.mail.yandex.net (forward105p.mail.yandex.net [77.88.28.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GHMs6ljSz45Rg for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eriklauritsen@yandex.com) Received: from forward100q.mail.yandex.net (forward100q.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:c0e:4b:0:640:4012:bb97]) by forward105p.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 9D0EB4D410CE for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:19:18 +0300 (MSK) Received: from mxback5q.mail.yandex.net (mxback5q.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:c0e:1ba:0:640:b716:ad89]) by forward100q.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 99DCC7080015 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:19:18 +0300 (MSK) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by mxback5q.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id vx34pX2BYI-JIMaJG19; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:19:18 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.com; s=mail; t=1581319158; bh=+rlrY6wN7goxgj0thigdlkCpRWpG7qTcTs1eiSWsTR0=; h=Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; b=QilO8MF7BomjEdb4NYDRFmAU/m6q/e2ylHtkh21tL6vY4A81TRFahDAJdWeS6yK7h maZHHwwO7d5MYxympoVOHaG8I7S+lJeIwpNcAcV6DbepEjXHfzZgSSNdNxhuHO002l Qnd1glmOHM1SRGcpS2RRUhxBeQQCwgYBPXhFl6os= Received: by vla1-b55dfea406f0.qloud-c.yandex.net with HTTP; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:19:18 +0300 From: Erik Lauritsen To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Bad ZFS performance on the desktop MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Yamail [ http://yandex.ru ] 5.0 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:18 +0000 Message-Id: <17394471581319158@vla1-b55dfea406f0.qloud-c.yandex.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GHMs6ljSz45Rg X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yandex.com header.s=mail header.b=QilO8MF7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=yandex.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of eriklauritsen@yandex.com designates 77.88.28.108 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eriklauritsen@yandex.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:77.88.0.0/18]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yandex.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yandex.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yandex.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[108.28.88.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yandex.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:77.88.0.0/18, country:RU]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yandex.com:s=mail]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.78), ipnet: 77.88.0.0/18(-4.83), asn: 13238(-3.82), country: RU(0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:23 -0000 I normally only use ZFS for a storage server, but decided to give it a try on the desktop. I have installed FreeBSD 12.1 on ZFS root in a mirror with 2 x 1TB drives for desktop usage. The performance is terrible every time I use a browser. I suspected the browser cache to be the problem, so I made a tmpfs and put the cache there, but the problem is that browsers write to disk all the time and not only when using the cache. As soon as I shut down the browser, and I have tried with Firefox and others, then the harddrives stops working (I can hear the noise). The browsers are the worst, but other applications that write some stuff to disk is also not so good. I understand that ZFS has to write every single bit to disk twice because I run a mirror, but I am surprised at the performance penalty and how much these drives keep working. I have monitored ZFS using 'top' and can see that it never eats more than half of my memory, so it's not because I'm out of memory. I'm thinking about getting a couple of SSDs, but then again I use backup meticulously and perhaps ZFS on a single drive or just UFS is better for the desktop? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Kind regards, Erik From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 07:46:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A461231303 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:46:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GHym1j2Dz46qR for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:46:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581320768; x=1583912768; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=NkqNbiynWHM3WF3g8xVs85JGmycOXu25byGvCN2Wld0=; b=EluoBha5U1Az3PX7NvEqEi1rP3czao1pWtp4N3hDjYCpry3Dj8aR0uRSKY+/Xd4bLpbEnHG6R6QUIjs/ELaWVQoRKAza5clgpVCVKijc6kTZK2dwKRETKNHGdCcRdeX669xHLFo+zWUE1cxYckfjp+ekbxiviEGmm/BOxZDNFq8= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi42ZTAwMDAwMmI5ZjZmNy5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 02:45:59 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 02:45:58 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j13lU-000Bmd-0U for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:45:56 +0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:45:55 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad ZFS performance on the desktop Message-Id: <20200210074555.7f409476708f05bd10c1efb0@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <17394471581319158@vla1-b55dfea406f0.qloud-c.yandex.net> References: <17394471581319158@vla1-b55dfea406f0.qloud-c.yandex.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GHym1j2Dz46qR X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=EluoBha5; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.974,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.31), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.62), asn: 7381(0.30), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:46:09 -0000 On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:18 +0000 Erik Lauritsen wrote: > I have monitored ZFS using 'top' and can see that it never eats > more than half of my memory, so it's not because I'm out of > memory. Is there any sign of swap activity ? This sounds a lot like swap thrashing. > I'm thinking about getting a couple of SSDs, but then again I use > backup meticulously and perhaps ZFS on a single drive or just UFS > is better for the desktop? I'm using ZFS on a single SSD for boot (with everything important mounted from a NAS running a bunch of mirrors), it's fast but I did have to set vfs.zfs.arc_max in /boot/loader.conf (to 2GB on my 8GB machine) in order to stop browsers thrashing swap. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 07:50:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4FA231492 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:50:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trond.endrestol@ximalas.info) Received: from enterprise.ximalas.info (enterprise.ximalas.info [IPv6:2001:700:1100:1::8]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "ximalas.info", Issuer "Hostmaster ximalas.info" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GJ3V32RYz46xW for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:50:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trond.endrestol@ximalas.info) Received: from enterprise.ximalas.info (Ximalas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enterprise.ximalas.info (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 01A7nwdM078096 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:49:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from trond.endrestol@ximalas.info) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ximalas.info; s=default; t=1581320999; bh=mMXJUlQUlmm1ycZK8/qoT105889niTIYsbYLXyZuRpc=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=G5xzKoKUC7eY2eoby/kPaQfEj+RTbteKtUCYbKb8t39MjGQvLSELTEy2I+1MU/QM/ ZS0E88cDg+lk/0Y7K/kPvzR9tGzTUB+CkRpJIK3nqWBUHO5kww7nW+umKIRtu5fDuT yKcJ6Pnz0ECAsqAPyEJaCaSG4J2RLqlk7prVxntjzL2odl70KZORdGoJFcUISp55JG vw/NuZexAn+jT7Ogo6nyXysi2OKSif5VptHnTjUnGp0C0I+HPmezeHk2Z10TlWPlbI u9rj9GjHDrVXRzu+yeIQbCB+q4YpYPfvwck6hjStSwvfytOISqWqUdhWZGNRRNhAWy fijYjupDZj22Q== Received: from localhost (trond@localhost) by enterprise.ximalas.info (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 01A7nwwS078093; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:49:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from trond.endrestol@ximalas.info) X-Authentication-Warning: enterprise.ximalas.info: trond owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:49:58 +0100 (CET) From: =?UTF-8?Q?Trond_Endrest=C3=B8l?= Sender: Trond.Endrestol@ximalas.info To: Polytropon cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem with poudriere and 'BATCH' In-Reply-To: <20200210071252.ed87d7d4.freebsd@edvax.de> Message-ID: References: <20200209165815.506f490a@scorpio> <20200210071252.ed87d7d4.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (BSF 395 2020-01-19) OpenPGP: url=http://ximalas.info/about/tronds-openpgp-public-key MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on enterprise.ximalas.info X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GJ3V32RYz46xW X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ximalas.info header.s=default header.b=G5xzKoKU; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ximalas.info; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of trond.endrestol@ximalas.info designates 2001:700:1100:1::8 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=trond.endrestol@ximalas.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.03 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ximalas.info:s=default]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ximalas.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ximalas.info,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:224, ipnet:2001:700::/32, country:NO]; IP_SCORE(-2.03)[ip: (-8.06), ipnet: 2001:700::/32(-1.35), asn: 224(-0.74), country: NO(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:50:15 -0000 On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:12+0100, Polytropon wrote: > On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:58:15 -0500, Jerry wrote: > > I am attempting to build the "print/hplip-plugin" port via poudriere. > > When I attempt to do so, I am greeted with this message: > > > > [00:00:07] Ignoring print/hplip-plugin | hplip-plugin-3.19.12: > > License HPLIP_PLUGIN needs confirmation, but BATCH is defined > > > > I have never encountered this before. > > This is only needed for ports where there is a licensing > restriction that requires you to interactively express your > consent with the licensing terms. Regular ports do not > require this and can therefore be built in batch mode. > However, there are a few ports that need this kind of > interaction. > > > How, other than building it sans poudriere, do I accomplish it. > > In /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/make.conf, try the following: > > DISABLE_LICENSES=yes > > Sadly, I didn't find proper documentation of this option > (not in "man 5 make.conf", not in poudriere's material). > Maybe it can be found in some locally accessible example > file? > > Please report back if it worked. If it does, I'd say it's > worth being included in official poudriere configuration > (exept it already is, and I just didn't find it). ;-) In the case of mail/dcc-dccd, as an example, this can be added to make.conf: LICENSES_ACCEPTED+=DCC > References: > > https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2019-July/285853.html > > https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/failing-to-compile-audio-teamspeak3-server-with-poudriere.48194/ -- Trond. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 08:45:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A3C232683 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:45:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eriklauritsen@yandex.com) Received: from forward501j.mail.yandex.net (forward501j.mail.yandex.net [5.45.198.251]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GKHj3Nz0z49Qd for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:45:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eriklauritsen@yandex.com) Received: from mxback23g.mail.yandex.net (mxback23g.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:323]) by forward501j.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 4E6A53380786 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:45:50 +0300 (MSK) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by mxback23g.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id rrh1zJXnEU-jnPCbcGW; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:45:49 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.com; s=mail; t=1581324349; bh=B1AQQvH6v+yselYi6tmivbZ6sotP+qdzYZlO3RDOlzY=; h=References:Date:Message-Id:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=bhXwzPqfpukpHjkG7GSEUOhWSZZEjt7sOZU6vYqieqVIHf455sayKnsIM43gklzSh LT9JH57nkdDF7wdqHzfi1QERwftuyb2mrKjBEamBHv0z5ZgJ17Q4SQ0VXbpK8uPDWD DVDtu7s2p+l0fC2BDviebypwrsVSiOLybfbWA0Jk= Received: by sas2-2d551da8e887.qloud-c.yandex.net with HTTP; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:45:49 +0300 From: Erik Lauritsen To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20200210074555.7f409476708f05bd10c1efb0@sohara.org> References: <17394471581319158@vla1-b55dfea406f0.qloud-c.yandex.net> <20200210074555.7f409476708f05bd10c1efb0@sohara.org> Subject: Re: Bad ZFS performance on the desktop MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Yamail [ http://yandex.ru ] 5.0 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:45:49 +0000 Message-Id: <38784851581324349@sas2-2d551da8e887.qloud-c.yandex.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GKHj3Nz0z49Qd X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yandex.com header.s=mail header.b=bhXwzPqf; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=yandex.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of eriklauritsen@yandex.com designates 5.45.198.251 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eriklauritsen@yandex.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yandex.com:s=mail]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:5.45.192.0/19]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yandex.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yandex.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yandex.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 5.45.192.0/18(-4.86), asn: 13238(-3.83), country: RU(0.01)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[251.198.45.5.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yandex.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:5.45.192.0/18, country:RU]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:45:54 -0000 > On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:18 +0000 > Erik Lauritsen wrote: > >> I have monitored ZFS using 'top' and can see that it never eats >> more than half of my memory, so it's not because I'm out of >> memory. > > Is there any sign of swap activity ? This sounds a lot like swap > thrashing. There is no swap activity. I have 16 GB in the box and the ARC is set to 10GB, but it never reaches that. Also top shows that the swap is free all the time: Swap: 2048M Total, 2048M Free >> I'm thinking about getting a couple of SSDs, but then again I use >> backup meticulously and perhaps ZFS on a single drive or just UFS >> is better for the desktop? > > I'm using ZFS on a single SSD for boot (with everything important > mounted from a NAS running a bunch of mirrors), it's fast but I did have to > set vfs.zfs.arc_max in /boot/loader.conf (to 2GB on my 8GB machine) in > order to stop browsers thrashing swap. > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 09:02:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92EC923305A for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:02:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GKg53M4Fz4C4q for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:02:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.19.213]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N7zRz-1jWNaI03G7-014xwF; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:02:29 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:02:27 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Trond =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Endrest=F8l?= Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem with poudriere and 'BATCH' Message-Id: <20200210100227.1e7e629d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200209165815.506f490a@scorpio> <20200210071252.ed87d7d4.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; 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RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.48)[ip: (1.31), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.11), asn: 8560(2.23), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:02:42 -0000 On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:49:58 +0100 (CET), Trond Endrest=F8l wrote: > On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:12+0100, Polytropon wrote: >=20 > > On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:58:15 -0500, Jerry wrote: > > > I am attempting to build the "print/hplip-plugin" port via poudriere. > > > When I attempt to do so, I am greeted with this message: > > >=20 > > > [00:00:07] Ignoring print/hplip-plugin | hplip-plugin-3.19.12: > > > License HPLIP_PLUGIN needs confirmation, but BATCH is defined > > >=20 > > > I have never encountered this before. > >=20 > > This is only needed for ports where there is a licensing > > restriction that requires you to interactively express your > > consent with the licensing terms. Regular ports do not > > require this and can therefore be built in batch mode. > > However, there are a few ports that need this kind of > > interaction. > >=20 > > > How, other than building it sans poudriere, do I accomplish it. > >=20 > > In /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/make.conf, try the following: > >=20 > > DISABLE_LICENSES=3Dyes > >=20 > > Sadly, I didn't find proper documentation of this option > > (not in "man 5 make.conf", not in poudriere's material). > > Maybe it can be found in some locally accessible example > > file? > >=20 > > Please report back if it worked. If it does, I'd say it's > > worth being included in official poudriere configuration > > (exept it already is, and I just didn't find it). ;-) >=20 > In the case of mail/dcc-dccd, as an example, this can be added to=20 > make.conf: >=20 > LICENSES_ACCEPTED+=3DDCC Is this officially documented somewhere (not just to be manually parsed from some configuration file)? --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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[174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w200sm5250997ywa.34.2020.02.10.01.49.06 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 01:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48GLhd4fW8z1C2y for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 04:49:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 04:48:58 -0500 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem with poudriere and 'BATCH' Message-ID: <20200210044858.48a51491@scorpio> In-Reply-To: <20200210100227.1e7e629d.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200209165815.506f490a@scorpio> <20200210071252.ed87d7d4.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200210100227.1e7e629d.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.3) Face: 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 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/NUMVLHRziJXAHN5ZMnC7Hra"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GLhh4HxVz4FQ0 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=j6h0O1E7; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.68 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.58)[ip: (-9.13), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-1.96), asn: 15169(-1.73), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[250.225.109.174.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:49:09 -0000 --Sig_/NUMVLHRziJXAHN5ZMnC7Hra Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:02:27 +0100, Polytropon stated: >On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:49:58 +0100 (CET), Trond Endrest=C3=B8l wrote: >> On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:12+0100, Polytropon wrote: >> =20 >> > On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:58:15 -0500, Jerry wrote: =20 >> > > I am attempting to build the "print/hplip-plugin" port via >> > > poudriere. When I attempt to do so, I am greeted with this >> > > message: >> > >=20 >> > > [00:00:07] Ignoring print/hplip-plugin | hplip-plugin-3.19.12: >> > > License HPLIP_PLUGIN needs confirmation, but BATCH is defined >> > >=20 >> > > I have never encountered this before. =20 >> >=20 >> > This is only needed for ports where there is a licensing >> > restriction that requires you to interactively express your >> > consent with the licensing terms. Regular ports do not >> > require this and can therefore be built in batch mode. >> > However, there are a few ports that need this kind of >> > interaction. >> > =20 >> > > How, other than building it sans poudriere, do I accomplish it. =20 >> >=20 >> > In /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/make.conf, try the following: >> >=20 >> > DISABLE_LICENSES=3Dyes >> >=20 >> > Sadly, I didn't find proper documentation of this option >> > (not in "man 5 make.conf", not in poudriere's material). >> > Maybe it can be found in some locally accessible example >> > file? >> >=20 >> > Please report back if it worked. If it does, I'd say it's >> > worth being included in official poudriere configuration >> > (exept it already is, and I just didn't find it). ;-) =20 >>=20 >> In the case of mail/dcc-dccd, as an example, this can be added to=20 >> make.conf: >>=20 >> LICENSES_ACCEPTED+=3DDCC =20 > >Is this officially documented somewhere (not just to be manually >parsed from some configuration file)? I tried all sorts of combinations; however, the only one that worked was: DISABLE_LICENSES=3Dyes Now, that would apply to all programs built by poudriere. I would like a way to restrict it to only the "print/hplip-plugin" port at this time. Is that possible? --=20 Jerry --Sig_/NUMVLHRziJXAHN5ZMnC7Hra Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl5BJwoACgkQOHMGOIfe xWSpFwgAxO/R+kRcMgf9ImN+LWXwoVye4YGE8IZaFqKcTYzflnEZuzp4TT17wFRV vycd9LcKZKm+EWo9JEG+v/iT2VOqtGYDULVSyDj6BeW2P7RVqKybAOHum34MDPs8 gt7nKUzqe4M3NiECiXqqXN2rTRPeRRQNHlt3eFl/f4t80ePNFBOUoK7IMH5+1J3G QQtvvdsUKjMxFmuKfUmQJt4Ugt0Mzo0LB9oNwn18ZNLRvPHOfx9aBX0IgNdsZtyJ bp3M8pLCn2Tj3GPthRHipZb4v/LGkS367NH/RVCeaQWWX5GnVoZmFkizsjeNc8jX Ccga22bMSjueyp+cswnDJHbrVAlVOQ== =NeCI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/NUMVLHRziJXAHN5ZMnC7Hra-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 10:19:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F93E234C73 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:19:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trond.endrestol@ximalas.info) Received: from enterprise.ximalas.info (enterprise.ximalas.info [IPv6:2001:700:1100:1::8]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "ximalas.info", Issuer "Hostmaster ximalas.info" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GMMN2GcXz4GyB for ; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:19:13 -0000 On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:02+0100, Polytropon wrote: > On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:49:58 +0100 (CET), Trond Endrestøl wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:12+0100, Polytropon wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:58:15 -0500, Jerry wrote: > > > > I am attempting to build the "print/hplip-plugin" port via poudriere. > > > > When I attempt to do so, I am greeted with this message: > > > > > > > > [00:00:07] Ignoring print/hplip-plugin | hplip-plugin-3.19.12: > > > > License HPLIP_PLUGIN needs confirmation, but BATCH is defined > > > > > > > > I have never encountered this before. > > > > > > This is only needed for ports where there is a licensing > > > restriction that requires you to interactively express your > > > consent with the licensing terms. Regular ports do not > > > require this and can therefore be built in batch mode. > > > However, there are a few ports that need this kind of > > > interaction. > > > > > > > How, other than building it sans poudriere, do I accomplish it. > > > > > > In /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/make.conf, try the following: > > > > > > DISABLE_LICENSES=yes > > > > > > Sadly, I didn't find proper documentation of this option > > > (not in "man 5 make.conf", not in poudriere's material). > > > Maybe it can be found in some locally accessible example > > > file? > > > > > > Please report back if it worked. If it does, I'd say it's > > > worth being included in official poudriere configuration > > > (exept it already is, and I just didn't find it). ;-) > > > > In the case of mail/dcc-dccd, as an example, this can be added to > > make.conf: > > > > LICENSES_ACCEPTED+=DCC > > Is this officially documented somewhere (not just to be manually > parsed from some configuration file)? See Mk/bsd.licenses.mk. -- Trond From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 10:24:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B92234F8C for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:24:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ludovit.koren@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GMT61zPTz4HLR for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:24:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ludovit.koren@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id z3so6912009wru.3 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 02:24:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:user-mail-address:date:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vFUVJxHlA8BnrcuWxgGuvwShbPA1xaGBUI9WGXkiXLw=; b=AXfrjk5dnmC6NGTIKVHh1asU1eENYDIoWsxxdzoTjUB8f+wr6ostiekZ+CJV8lFXEK xbsdE5npN5AgiHupdxUgzZDvaz2+beTrQzLtGx9DCIu4iq9EP+dBpD+7CY/DYBzWqdwv Ff7aDtEcoCUb4xuo749XpfFBg6NLRf9WijpmLAg5nObrZFr2fSbdg8sRTVoiddZR6n3M NhXMOZvGuF9WTwJQX8cisY/LIHAVT2iRnJ5B3KqOQCq99KrrJ0LYp/9VgHoqbNEa6+mx KzVqe8bX7qpeuHIOJjcaLUEbbhhkXcVy1vSLvW71NV3k9bhudEvtV+IxlwCA7Q4S2Wb+ Rypg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:user-mail-address:date :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vFUVJxHlA8BnrcuWxgGuvwShbPA1xaGBUI9WGXkiXLw=; b=st71BXq3UMLAOxtzIftLRdi4PmmeGwq6EUWLZfNwnM1kVO+7lhbkeEddBpz3PWxphq pprIY5lLy3HrQxJbNqDqbE+R+bq6MZctykScbeo5nwy9mjI9l0KNc137mmuEcdGSVsgu jb6bFkuOhOwRvrLPFn1zHDm8fYH6urEKxBFIwFkt2PfbHMC4AeakarHRqoOskwBBqb4U rB61Wx56Rv40iXUx7ScualRqbUwUANPeTiJn7A3koiBY/Q2ifRFXwif0Fgn1qS8HZf7L WW1+qIPpVhp+g3N2g2jAEbqd2Qxug3HLDTsVMR2rrYoyErIeLHLlNQJI4iLu7xQ8qwcm v+mw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVMHzRAkv4TroCnvTvSQKKTLscScH+GXLXasj37VXN/Pq4z7NAh mbsDRJy0JY/QaRi/haJEczft1n+4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzNoX+hUspxw1GElozUAuMscoIXquYCk7Ey1Cx4xBGJxBU889efRkMDe4jvsCsEP3+a6RPa5g== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:63c9:: with SMTP id c9mr1093565wrw.281.1581330247644; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 02:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from jedi.localdomain ([195.28.109.156]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b21sm15521869wmd.37.2020.02.10.02.24.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 02:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by jedi.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3B02C15A94; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:24:06 +0100 (CET) From: Ludovit Koren To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: HP EliteBook x360 830 G6 User-Mail-Address: ludovit.koren@gmail.com Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:24:06 +0100 Message-ID: <86imkeivuh.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GMT61zPTz4HLR X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=AXfrjk5d; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ludovitkoren@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::430 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ludovitkoren@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.15), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.48), asn: 15169(-1.73), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:24:11 -0000 Hi, is anybody using this notebook with FreeBSD? Any personal experiences? By default, there is Intel=C2=AE WiFi 6 ax. Is there a compatibility mode, can I use it at a lower speed? Is the touch screen usable? Is suspend/resume working? Thank you very much in advance for your insights. Regards, lk From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 11:06:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5D623602C for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:06:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GNPv2QrKz4KRl for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:06:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECB610378; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:06:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Problem with poudriere and 'BATCH' To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jerry References: <20200209165815.506f490a@scorpio> <20200210071252.ed87d7d4.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200210100227.1e7e629d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200210044858.48a51491@scorpio> From: Arthur Chance Message-ID: <010055e4-5dc7-52fb-893e-2854dcecf17a@qeng-ho.org> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:06:19 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200210044858.48a51491@scorpio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GNPv2QrKz4KRl X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:06:27 -0000 On 10/02/2020 09:48, Jerry wrote: > On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:02:27 +0100, Polytropon stated: >> On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:49:58 +0100 (CET), Trond Endrestøl wrote: >>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:12+0100, Polytropon wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 16:58:15 -0500, Jerry wrote: >>>>> I am attempting to build the "print/hplip-plugin" port via >>>>> poudriere. When I attempt to do so, I am greeted with this >>>>> message: >>>>> >>>>> [00:00:07] Ignoring print/hplip-plugin | hplip-plugin-3.19.12: >>>>> License HPLIP_PLUGIN needs confirmation, but BATCH is defined >>>>> >>>>> I have never encountered this before. >>>> >>>> This is only needed for ports where there is a licensing >>>> restriction that requires you to interactively express your >>>> consent with the licensing terms. Regular ports do not >>>> require this and can therefore be built in batch mode. >>>> However, there are a few ports that need this kind of >>>> interaction. >>>> >>>>> How, other than building it sans poudriere, do I accomplish it. >>>> >>>> In /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/make.conf, try the following: >>>> >>>> DISABLE_LICENSES=yes >>>> >>>> Sadly, I didn't find proper documentation of this option >>>> (not in "man 5 make.conf", not in poudriere's material). >>>> Maybe it can be found in some locally accessible example >>>> file? >>>> >>>> Please report back if it worked. If it does, I'd say it's >>>> worth being included in official poudriere configuration >>>> (exept it already is, and I just didn't find it). ;-) >>> >>> In the case of mail/dcc-dccd, as an example, this can be added to >>> make.conf: >>> >>> LICENSES_ACCEPTED+=DCC >> >> Is this officially documented somewhere (not just to be manually >> parsed from some configuration file)? > > I tried all sorts of combinations; however, the only one that worked > was: DISABLE_LICENSES=yes > > Now, that would apply to all programs built by poudriere. I would like > a way to restrict it to only the "print/hplip-plugin" port at this > time. Is that possible? > You can use make(1) conditionals to restrict which directories a directive applies to. You'll want something like .if ${.CURDIR:M*/print/hplip-plugin} DISABLE_LICENSES=yes .endif in the poudriere make.conf. -- Violets are red And roses are blue When metamaterials Alter their hue. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 11:47:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1C12375D3 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:47:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GPJw4h4Lz4Mds for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:47:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581335233; x=1583927233; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=fwSojVJKdZwreRSPUsdtDbt++lbB5L6LWg6mzmhzGXM=; b=UivwQCs5YoD+qV4AWnJ4d2cFW1MvKOiTZcqJ6VxAIl5xCVIx0CgIZacyOETqz9dnnFR+s2NfAd1Wr3gUXXWDp/V2ZE+UPQlh3Zjs9xlCsgpIgCB4xjxu63+b8vmmdo9nd99GD4kyNWeRh6n+A0JNrxwj6jOIBszBNVYL8ydKOeU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi42ZTAwMDAwMmJiZGU5My5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:47:06 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:47:05 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j17Wq-000CYg-B4 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:47:04 +0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:47:04 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad ZFS performance on the desktop Message-Id: <20200210114704.21595eab746d3ccf62f7e879@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <38784851581324349@sas2-2d551da8e887.qloud-c.yandex.net> References: <17394471581319158@vla1-b55dfea406f0.qloud-c.yandex.net> <20200210074555.7f409476708f05bd10c1efb0@sohara.org> <38784851581324349@sas2-2d551da8e887.qloud-c.yandex.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GPJw4h4Lz4Mds X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=UivwQCs5; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.88 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.989,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.31), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.61), asn: 7381(0.30), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:47:13 -0000 On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:45:49 +0000 Erik Lauritsen wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:19:18 +0000 > > Erik Lauritsen wrote: > > > >> I have monitored ZFS using 'top' and can see that it never eats > >> more than half of my memory, so it's not because I'm out of > >> memory. > > > > Is there any sign of swap activity ? This sounds a lot like swap > > thrashing. > > There is no swap activity. I have 16 GB in the box and the ARC is > set to 10GB, but it never reaches that. Bang goes that theory :) Does zpool status shed any light ? -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 20:28:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F83243322 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:28:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sniffer@dewberryfields.co.uk) Received: from ictmail.ictprovision.com (ictmail.ictprovision.com [35.178.134.240]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Gct21ncKz40xF for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:28:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sniffer@dewberryfields.co.uk) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Michael Howard Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?UK_Currency_Key_=28=c2=a3=29?= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:27:59 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dewberryfields.co.uk; s=2019; t=1581366497; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ypf9S6z75txKZob5QnzfKXJyOV427lBu8KwZE3xuS7w=; b=K9xpDjaUUTSog1cfyDFdtK5g6ZtNmHtO5tHniH7BspxS2xCMS74I3WhIhLA8iwjRC1LcFM 6HjLpmXxo6OJqCsjKU7Vg6bnorkO0yq2hJiRnxGINAl5sclzjjjqbj3mVvLlEqbWOjnXEW 6bvkGSobU25zfWswZMpBK1ymLtyv40U= ARC-Seal: i=1; s=2019; d=dewberryfields.co.uk; t=1581366497; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=OHl6OAeN8Yo8M677YIZMspcjnjPJABaVUNxsjw4BdxlsWIC8fa3U1ML500AGXAFyYg02/6 5Yb/9ueFc86xZufmPHzdTzRhc9hMNqU8UnY12JCi9X3FXUbqY8KpMU8eAFjqGPJ1LGHOCZ H4VBKDNkrnoE5SPAKJWdoQZmpQCP/P0= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; ORIGINATING; auth=pass smtp.auth=sniffer@dewberryfields.co.uk smtp.mailfrom=sniffer@dewberryfields.co.uk X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Gct21ncKz40xF X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.23 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[dewberryfields.co.uk:s=2019]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:ictmail.ictprovision.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[dewberryfields.co.uk:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[dewberryfields.co.uk,reject]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.23)[asn: 16509(-1.10), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:35.178.0.0/15, country:US]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[i=1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:28:11 -0000 Hi All, Just installed FreeBSD. The problem is I don't seem able to get the UK currency key (£) to display. No X installed at this point. During the install when I selected the UK layout, testing said layout didn't produce any output either. The £ sign displays on all other OS I use (with the UK keyboard layout), with the same keyboard (through USB KVM) so I know its good. UK layout is configured and all other keys seem to work, i.e the ones that can give trouble like | @ " $  #  ~ Dr Google brings up numerous but very old issues, without solutions. Anybody come across this and know the answer? Mike -- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 21:02:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04198244293 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:02:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk) Received: from outmx-028.london.gridhost.co.uk (outmx-028.london.gridhost.co.uk [95.142.156.253]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Gddn079hz43Gj for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:02:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk) Received: from curlew.milibyte.co.uk (unknown [82.71.56.121]) (Authenticated sender: mailpool@milibyte.co.uk) by outmx-028.london.gridhost.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 39FB92015F880; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:02:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=curlew.localnet) by curlew.milibyte.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1j1GCQ-000ArQ-Rh; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:02:34 +0000 From: Mike Clarke To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Michael Howard Subject: Re: UK Currency Key =?UTF-8?B?KMKjKQ==?= Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:02:34 +0000 Message-ID: <1899169.bl7DLxgNLY@curlew> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on curlew.milibyte.co.uk); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Gddn079hz43Gj X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk designates 95.142.156.253 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.51 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.58)[-0.577,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[milibyte.co.uk]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.42)[0.424,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[253.156.142.95.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; CTE_CASE(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:198047, ipnet:95.142.156.0/22, country:GB]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; IP_SCORE(1.06)[ipnet: 95.142.156.0/22(3.17), asn: 198047(2.23), country: GB(-0.08)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:02:38 -0000 On Monday, 10 February 2020 20:27:59 GMT Michael Howard via freebsd-questio= ns wrote: > Just installed FreeBSD. >=20 > The problem is I don't seem able to get the UK currency key (=C2=A3) to > display. No X installed at this point. Is your locale set correctly for UK English? curlew:/home/mike% env | grep LANG=20 LANG=3Den_GB.UTF-8=20 The default section of /etc/login.conf starts like this: default:\ :charset=3DUTF-8:\ :lang=3Den_GB.UTF-8:\ =2D-=20 Mike Clarke From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 21:22:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E60244DAE for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:22:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Gf4p3Wvdz44hM for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:22:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:22:32 -0800 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: David Christensen Subject: Looking for FOSS supported PCIe x4 SATA 6 Gb/s HBA with 4 or 8 ports Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:22:28 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Gf4p3Wvdz44hM X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.59)[ipnet: 184.104.0.0/15(0.66), asn: 6939(-3.58), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[27.128.105.184.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:22:35 -0000 freebsd-questions: I have a system with an Intel DQ67SW desktop board: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/support/us/en/documents/motherboards/desktop/dq67sw/dq67sw_techprodspec02.pdf It has the following expansion slots: - One PCI Express 2.0 x16 add-in card connector - One PCI Express 2.0 x4 add-in card connector - One PCI Express 2.0 x1 add-in card connector - One Conventional PCI bus connector I need more SATA III 6 Gb/s ports and am looking for a HBA: 1. I would prefer using PCIe x4 slot, but can use the x16 slot. 2. Non-RAID. 3. At least four SATA ports. 4. Can handle sustained loads of ~250 MB/s across all SATA ports simultaneously. 5. Works OOTB with FreeBSD 12.1, Debian 9, and Debian 10. 6. Works OOTB with SeaToolsBootable_RC_2.1.2. 7. New or used. My research thus far: 1. LSI products are popular, but: a. Most seem to be PCIe x8. b. STFW I see more than a few posts complaining about changing firmware from RAID to non-RAID, buggy firmware releases, and/or motherboard BIOS/UEFI incompatibilities with the flash tools. 2. Syba offers products: https://www.sybausa.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=64_181_85&filter=38,74 a. While migrating backup data, I recently saw a Syba PCIe x1 two port SATA II 3 Gb/s HBA model SD-SA2PEX-2IR throttling under sustained load -- it ran at 80-100 MB/s for 4-5 minutes, then at ~7 MB/s for two hours. Unacceptable. Comments? David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Feb 10 21:40:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF072455E3 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:40:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sniffer@dewberryfields.co.uk) Received: from ictmail.ictprovision.com (ictmail.ictprovision.com [35.178.134.240]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48GfSx2ysFz45XK for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:40:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sniffer@dewberryfields.co.uk) Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFVLIEN1cnJlbmN5IEtleSAowqMp?= To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <1899169.bl7DLxgNLY@curlew> From: Michael Howard Message-ID: <36d3a7af-795c-7efd-309a-f662bb5ad66f@dewberryfields.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:39:59 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1899169.bl7DLxgNLY@curlew> Content-Language: en-GB ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dewberryfields.co.uk; s=2019; t=1581370808; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=X7/irKldUO4t1BpRAzFZoAFgCbxQjn1cWLADYILDhXM=; b=D+uvgBICRjGKxyWbwsnXwbszCrNnZN9fMkbkqMcBuruWutOtaI/h/fwMXvOV+nTzyyYS/b VL1jvpezFdxTxGcie77wnQnWjmkKfkYA+F0V+AE6MkIgkFyUXXNswu+q46khgq+wVpBxk2 kRiQ6NkbhLExDqYHOhcDUCdZu7+Ogdg= ARC-Seal: i=1; s=2019; d=dewberryfields.co.uk; t=1581370808; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=eePq5KlUi18FjpHFKuvSW6yOqKo9u1xSGXdIZiBiXGWRYP0PluZIiGqPfPW1BCD0GxiveS IW7+ucfQXqxw/ny0lXAYH6UMAIwUAR0CgTwCmNXw83D2tzkVnrhTcYt4x41Sb0FvdadA4e cWZu4M8ZFHUV34wJxjrTy6nSk3bEF6A= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; ORIGINATING; auth=pass smtp.auth=sniffer@dewberryfields.co.uk smtp.mailfrom=sniffer@dewberryfields.co.uk X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48GfSx2ysFz45XK X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.23 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[dewberryfields.co.uk:s=2019]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:ictmail.ictprovision.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[dewberryfields.co.uk:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[dewberryfields.co.uk,reject]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-0.23)[asn: 16509(-1.10), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:35.178.0.0/15, country:US]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[i=1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:40:02 -0000 On 10/02/2020 21:02, Mike Clarke wrote: > On Monday, 10 February 2020 20:27:59 GMT Michael Howard via freebsd-questions wrote: > >> Just installed FreeBSD. >> >> The problem is I don't seem able to get the UK currency key (£) to >> display. No X installed at this point. > Is your locale set correctly for UK English? > > curlew:/home/mike% env | grep LANG > LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 > > The default section of /etc/login.conf starts like this: > > default:\ > :charset=UTF-8:\ > :lang=en_GB.UTF-8:\ > Thanks, that did the trick. Too long with debian ... Mike. -- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 01:45:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269E924A603 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:45:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Glw359kQz4KTv for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:45:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id n21so9907330ioo.10 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:45:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yNoIRWA7BRpW7McxodE6ew1q24ZFXC5tPFD8L1dugyM=; b=XSdIQjRg8SEzW0kEq9/iRxlOZUfcZLkyC2TIiX/QJqSUqpFlGXUAgHMTgvM05CWz8g RavpNfseRnhHO7lcs1Trg2CZRyHHwe/Rw2+HNsUvYDZcFxxJT3m5T2o6u0yNPjnZ22ZG U3vq1Kp0S0OTqEhQxjDTu/ircdJuMzZ+BeFlZPUGUDlrFl1a8B7kusL16NZZTu0w8DJg 5Eo7N61U3rQQdRqfkbkWo1EOfAh7kzJMLUuvIl4sjucACsdOGZFHIOXOPx7uSNqsrwka cdA/7boaQh0xlQf1/K88h4OcEQsajEDJZf+UxvMj/p46t1AwY0xqrVXJ7N8rrbTc94pR 7f8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yNoIRWA7BRpW7McxodE6ew1q24ZFXC5tPFD8L1dugyM=; b=S6lOTey00pdl9N7FUMF6h52fONWnv4A6kIeBD8RUazUKJVSofKPD2Im7996qDM9sXa 3bzBPiXSpgcxhQk+hwBNCea9p3dqRKWv13SnfIOoM9FzohF3DPs3ky2hMQ0o2ng/MRJO I5UNwGFfm+rJqj5ysh4kMOtJgRoX8y98XwNTlPSRTb0yGMKyNWosHjCYJt3122X3J9CP w2vHi+HXlmUqjOQNgEOyTO65GUUDsRzYsjHIx1KlxCFCacIgIOt0tFnvB7UJVco+wqlj H87O5xsq/PYY0SJEMHV/c+4Ba2+Z99Y+M/UupBNBanNx6U9KAS8oWsMSCbqYA6ppoVmb fmYA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWAJD21vbee3sNgVi6vTDtHTHBvH8vdbIPvrZJk1SUaLGG6tgHo awqLENVUXjDDcp2n7jRy9Vg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz30mjHoWLkrA/dSJsP6PM6mKhzkvi4AfPRNBTSE6lK9nJ8ZSqJe+eWkQ6gwYU+41YhzFE2Fw== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c9c6:: with SMTP id z189mr11282488iof.285.1581385522524; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.10.8] (cpe-65-25-53-210.neo.res.rr.com. [65.25.53.210]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id v7sm571998iom.58.2020.02.10.17.45.21 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:45:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5E420731.8040803@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:45:21 -0500 From: Ernie Luzar User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas X CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quickly ban an IP IPFW? 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There are a few ports that do this for you. Check out the port system. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 12:10:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A34232AF2 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 12:10:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48H1nC4BV4z3Qs5 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 12:10:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.26.136]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MLR5f-1ijgXH33x5-00ITLq; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:10:20 +0100 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 13:10:19 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Andreas X Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Quickly ban an IP IPFW? 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You could probably do this with a manual entry in /etc/rc.local: #!/bin/sh /sbin/ipfw add deny tcp from to any in If you do not add the "log" keyword, the denied (dropped) packets will not be logged. If you see more than TCP packets, use "all" instead of "tcp" in the rule. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 14:09:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B15236174 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:09:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (net-2-44-121-52.cust.vodafonedsl.it [2.44.121.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48H4QY2r9Kz43X7 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:09:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from alamar.ventu (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01BE9Dm6081475 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:09:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be alamar.ventu From: Andrea Venturoli Subject: Cannot get remote GDB to work To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <50a10abf-4873-2acc-4f8b-efb9bddb1194@netfence.it> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:09:13 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48H4QY2r9Kz43X7 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 2.44.121.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.34 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:2.44.121.52]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; IP_SCORE(-1.54)[ip: (-7.74), ipnet: 2.44.0.0/16(-3.87), asn: 30722(3.86), country: IT(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:09:26 -0000 Hello. I'm trying to debug through a serial cable, as described in: > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/developers-handbook/kerneldebug-online-gdb.html I followed the instruction (I believe correctly), but when I issue "target remote /dev/cuau0", I get: > Remote debugging using /dev/cuau0 > Ignoring packet error, continuing... > warning: unrecognized item "timeout" in "qSupported" response > Ignoring packet error, continuing... > Remote replied unexpectedly to 'vMustReplyEmpty': timeout I tried launching "cu -l /dev/cuau0" on both sides: I can correctly see what I type in the debugging terminal appear on the host's screen, but not vice versa. This starts working again, when I remove flags 0x80 from hint.uart.0.flags and change it back to 0x10 (default). Any hint? bye & Thanks av. P.S. Both machines are physical (no virtualization here), both are 12.1/amd64 and both serial ports are dumb old style serial ports. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 15:50:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE86E2399A1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:50:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48H6gN2BH6z4BQd for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:50:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490EE21F32 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:50:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zyxst.net; h= date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s= fm1; bh=MtNsI1D1/L1UEH1EaMnZl+jD8+J9H9WuqPuofH/tufg=; b=QggS5pR1 Jd/e+46EpEuZn4jeeSitZyVrwpbcBDIUVaPGXmMh4DwdlCoz9sXEc4rP5cPnf3p0 Ze9/TKmPLEQclq3Tcq8WQN196YfDlXivMm6mZkOovFZVzKz+dtfcuUp7SAoyVrkV 1EZIa3WN5o/jnCEnxEQeLBTcs9pM8b1IJTdx6h9U+7yBKj02e9MGK8e1JFS/8FyF ByKD1AivC46hlIDSr+7G4hYOmHGblhHG4E9u4T/TsC9yFU915fnNfi4vyzXF02VV jFdiBMR8e8noz3A2S+5IOvDCwcIe9d9DObT+ZRqEZeRgCOI4w3bE0HH4c3qjt+wb uKRWrQGbLpurtA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=MtNsI1D1/L1UEH1EaMnZl+jD8+J9H 9WuqPuofH/tufg=; b=ZPnfbZU3DNs7qB3xQpLXtlx4IvJl2F+mrJ6vBZSHSBRCw /asZC4mWVTYukddH7EI5uk46uMd2Ftet2UNi6bYhtLVjz02AAwUG9y7bYE1IaRZ1 EoOKQtDz35xQKOhE1MJ9iHZVGqA3kjMwvz9tA3+0DKF15H13yhV90ux6LpQQiQHX mSBYKBswZFAk9RiAzdqRiL9Oy2OrFXxYj2krCkLC9UAiyca/ozWG22kRKsD2rcdV 6968xWA60ivFdlrv2FjXbfp1ovu/fEAJ38leyBr84JXcvWHWAt8NkVR6xSwocdhC lHDgwUoHzv5+OoX4QyWCWlpGRsyBU1mr59kfgBnxg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrieefgdejkecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffhvffukfggtggusehgtderredttd dvnecuhfhrohhmpehtvggthhdqlhhishhtshcuoehtvggthhdqlhhishhtshesiiihgihs thdrnhgvtheqnecukfhppeekvddrjedtrdeluddrleelnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivg eptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepthgvtghhqdhlihhsthhsseiihiigshht rdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from bastion.zyxst.net (bastion.zyxst.net [82.70.91.99]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AA3303060B21 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:50:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:50:09 +0000 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: questions about swap (partition and file) Message-ID: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YiEDa0DAkWCtVeE4" Content-Disposition: inline X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48H6gN2BH6z4BQd X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm1 header.b=QggS5pR1; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=ZPnfbZU3; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 66.111.4.25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.19 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[zyxst.net:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[25.4.111.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:66.111.4.25]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zyxst.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[zyxst.net:+,messagingengine.com:+]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[25.4.111.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-3.49)[ip: (-9.81), ipnet: 66.111.4.0/24(-4.89), asn: 11403(-2.68), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:50:41 -0000 --YiEDa0DAkWCtVeE4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Which is it better to have - swapfile partition or swapfile? I have both, on a SSD. Thing is, I can write 10x faster to the file than I = can to the partition. With a 512b block size, it can write at 17MB/s to the partition, and about 120-130MB/s to the swapfile, as reported by dd. Historically, ISTR that it was recommended to have several swap partitions = on the fastest disks available, and that swapfile was slower than a partition because of something like fat translation. Is this still the case nowadays? Is there a better way of measuring swap speed than dd? thanks, --=20 J. --YiEDa0DAkWCtVeE4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl5CzUAACgkQs8o7QhFz NAXMJQ//d6+Q/NvgIBv8auQXNGMO0z3RP7eJAY3uLCPFKA7uU+NYM3bT3JgxEt/j MnDCpgK60zRG/BIqsyEVwmJUkfDK+wPmlT/rVfsteuP3cydl65re+nioL/QRAxtB rhIY560j3oRoczJH6y4+skcMkUImcJPvfBfCalhUscqZS3xAnNfL6q4E06Gox0It 4mF0EI9R2MT8E1nCtoHVLvC0OVc2KjJqOygqHSpuiU1skHXf0P4veQZKfbHoNbJC iALk/8f45VDZEhYNYWdutbdAi+dKq8JQ3lDvV2tNAQHRkEk9ariHqM3uiJ46qph7 xjgCoetVQvvGN/qi2Upx0qnB1QUASwNc1IP5SYSlj1Kq3y+BHU0myvdxn0LBD509 ECx7siSTmsvC6QuK3Hv+mLlDhf5YfFuMwapCi3jW/sBm+DWAWZeUxFxG+0MPitqA a7yCmcF7ub98Gl+DXfd68QnwsHeBui8pUZUA8IxfgBfBF4JeNUMQOQIWoyvHZQOR 2kHNkdFE0Xt0MWcLrbq2QZMuxpLca26SiJbP0LSav/4JINKM2kPFqHv+HYFw+TUg L/OAIZ2TpXsUoOaxRyDZT7dry1Ep22cUfDrehTFXv0h211KmHZ0om9vLIVRX1SeJ W/v92LOEP1qgMKzI0ShvtRGwYJik2IZrL6tBRe5VBH/mvuIEYTQ= =wv6n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YiEDa0DAkWCtVeE4-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 15:55:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6FA239DEE for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:55:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48H6nV6NrKz4C0N for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:55:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.26.136]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N5lvf-1jY6Vu1ggl-017DLJ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:55:53 +0100 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:55:52 +0100 From: Polytropon To: tech-lists Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) Message-Id: <20200211165552.e122bf2c.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BRI+Zi5QOqjBj+q36RWHZHqjmowewASNQ6RuLuWlfEq7Ki4RZAC cH8n5rQCzf31D8Ifpkh0pIuUhdkbPCXBXYHTzZ6ab+Xk9+M7Gv55RdHeVCrUR1a7rSBVh5x 0VSLbxXlRmSwe7s1ftnd/UW/fuGdQaHvI6AK4vkFmCSI7E8SranG3mryWNpEvk8+mZSchlS QL+fRU6TUmkxdMH2l99eA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:91NQMGHWYPg=:mQ9pLdoaoI2M9ajEqeoW/6 lMIEg4BpqApB/8B2tBdeB3xTfbdhRkduPtBlbfXApdjkKBiwubLHP2vNKGB9x9HWD7jWAitAl vz7DbwaAyXfPVgeeZYuJSnAXq6JUZsPsfX8P6dy60Qd1FLPHdSySEjK7/duxldlMDlOrlIrIx Hn8lS9pErTQMvFjQ1S/jgONxSLLeEBYTZy+WW8KximEHD9QompDJsnWkr7VG46mAehzDBTXDa Cv0rGjFfxywnayLle6II6+xK+KjrrZ/mYrICG9IFJZmiXzF/tUFf7QXPr3lySgJPK4PdbJg9L uX5gVRoOPMqGJFD4SZRNWmQuAzowtzR4X2l2MJ9LIBtGMlS+mRQ7Llv7Npg6FjJ//WGieypkF Snkt+ag3Z1zkhYHbY+QWypEpaFHZMW8HsG+K3AAPyve8v/XL4s38B1KrCV+yWAGSWJ2gyHaS6 A6b0ioUsSYF7r0JT2kAQZjMrS4SPg4nLQnzoEsu5Re0ixv8LToW67f1J3kt5/jg4jO9a2lLY3 6kuHwzrx5/FCNZeN4dPGY0DWly12MEe9ohfAzSwUpREzd2IX4L9+iADaGu4lVa/AtTtqcRh74 nSEDaDZOPhu/aTs/am9NI8suuV7rp7+uVpDz1N9sKjKRPZTP18tlNv7Aji5ls96+18ERhlkyD EBXcAgQv1QEZQOsFbJNKXxmjed+WAOoZjKy/h52eioWljm0VamhCQilSlUlWBezHrzNczwRw3 sQgnDfOfhSCxcjvVsnc53I6/D7YJ8AWp2Cxzy3Vdoax8Zox3d7732jN5RTsXFuzGsmkaU6x1/ PVNg41BkgQG+jUUev98CcWqDAhNBXSdhiv0jO/LS8N9na6NVA8g8oWrUF3M6r/XBR8jukcm X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48H6nV6NrKz4C0N X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.26 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[136.26.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.48)[-0.478,0]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.999,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.34)[ip: (0.60), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.12), asn: 8560(2.23), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:56:00 -0000 On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:50:09 +0000, tech-lists wrote: > Which is it better to have - swapfile partition or swapfile? > > I have both, on a SSD. Thing is, I can write 10x faster to the > file than I can > to the partition. With a 512b block size, it can write at 17MB/s > to the > partition, and about 120-130MB/s to the swapfile, as reported by dd. Probably a partition is better because it saves the subsystems accessing it to deal with the filesystem layer. A swap device does not have a filesystem, and it's not under VFS control, so no overhead of that kind. However, it is possible to "emulate" a swap device with a file, and there are probably several ways to do this (for example, virtual node: mdconfig + swapctl, also possible as "on demand" solution where space will only be claimed when there's an actual need for it). > Historically, ISTR that it was recommended to have several swap > partitions on > the fastest disks available, and that swapfile was slower than > a partition > because of something like fat translation. It was also suggested to make the swap partition = 2 x maximum RAM of machine... :-) > Is this still the case nowadays? > Is there a better way of measuring swap speed than dd? I'm not sure. It probably depends on the swapping behaviour implied by your actual workloads. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:21:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:21:29 +0000 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) Message-ID: <20200211162129.GC9715@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200211165552.e122bf2c.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lCAWRPmW1mITcIfM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200211165552.e122bf2c.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48H7MW0s4Nz4D86 X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm1 header.b=S0VLUp/4; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=j3jegmZ+; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 66.111.4.25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.19 / 15.00]; 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charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 04:55:25PM +0100, Polytropon wrote: >On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:50:09 +0000, tech-lists wrote: >> Which is it better to have - swapfile partition or swapfile? >> >> I have both, on a SSD. Thing is, I can write 10x faster to the >> file than I can >> to the partition. With a 512b block size, it can write at 17MB/s >> to the >> partition, and about 120-130MB/s to the swapfile, as reported by dd. > >Probably a partition is better because it saves the subsystems >accessing it to deal with the filesystem layer. A swap device >does not have a filesystem, and it's not under VFS control, so >no overhead of that kind. But given there's no overhead, then why on the face of it is it slower than= a swapfile? > >However, it is possible to "emulate" a swap device with a file, >and there are probably several ways to do this (for example, >virtual node: mdconfig + swapctl,=20 I have these at the moment in my /etc/fstab: /dev/ada0s1b none swap sw 0 0 md99 none swap sw,file=3D/swap0,late 0 0 md98 none swap sw,file=3D/swap1,late 0 0 The amount of RAM in the machine is 32GB, the swap partition is 4GB and each swapfile is 32GB The *reasoning behind* asking this is I use this machine for poudriere, and sometimes I'll see this in the logs: swap_pager: out of swap space swap_pager_getswapspace(10): failed swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: bufobj: 0, blkno: 22294, size: 40960 and this happens even when not even half of the swap space has been used.= =20 Only the "out of swap space" problem happens when *only* the swap partition= =20 is enabled, when the swap partition fills up. I thought the indefinite wait buffer problem might be happening with just t= he swapfile, and that seems the case, but there is no defect with the SSD. I h= ave run it through fsck several times and all is good. smartmontools reports no defects. What I want is the swapfile to work like a swap partition and not report OOS errors when swap has not been exhausted. --=20 J. --lCAWRPmW1mITcIfM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl5C1JcACgkQs8o7QhFz NAVoEQ/8Ckxs1Bs1eoY2Ag8q1pWD8l8m38fVxxCULK4x/iBPJLPSRCMk17PcsyiQ sTk5utlsVQDmSppCR0RswR1hf0+JluzY/EwMfnqjKuWC1E9OctBOACmHPZDlZQCy vvFpBP3G/4xGeWab1zTXL6nV09GSzmrdz9MNx0slxwMresUh415jnKSihQZXC2M0 f1E8WaRH8JPYesWIuN/s9W2hZGV9XBtf+f3klckneOai1pH3sOV4sY31rHYXhH2w X4bqsZUwL/PitRQcF3FJPxJIhZNe8X3xFLI9MCOcU4XsoTh3QGZPBhvpyAWiDhOM BUw6ZNz0unkkk855/sphE3+EHGMIb2e/Fl7XML/15VrrDWp95kXE2VxMN99MWtOY ftNrYWH5qd0zlriCCvqNMLUNfoDAq8m0zPZaiRZui44wtM3BEt444Y1arDza5m7f PzaglC7TiWFqzoCNN3bWFa0z5Z0qAyGWjGFWjSaXmvTgO30Wo4oOUqAsOrTocvVo QQKdgJ9UMTovMvpy5uLgguS0JZGN1GUzJws9N1AhMD5sf1AJvpdP38ipXEHt9azi /JLY4aIGMtG7sYLkFHLQ7XrFWQC8+hjjztfUdbVryYGnk2cwn/aI5ik3JdCGWegg UPkw2PWi9UiMMYAJ9aQYk2gm9UwyWZIHFd7V9uCOy5l5WOQkW6M= =evWn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lCAWRPmW1mITcIfM-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 16:41:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A95623B08C for ; 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Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:41:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:41:05 +0000 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad ZFS performance on the desktop Message-ID: <20200211164105.GD9715@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <17394471581319158@vla1-b55dfea406f0.qloud-c.yandex.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FFoLq8A0u+X9iRU8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <17394471581319158@vla1-b55dfea406f0.qloud-c.yandex.net> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48H7p74j2Gz4FFF X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm1 header.b=pu0q1xhG; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=HbIpEooR; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 66.111.4.25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.19 / 15.00]; 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charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I've used ZFS on my main desktop since it became available but I've never= =20 gone for zfs-on-root. For maximum flexibility I have the OS installed on SSD UFS and homedirs/dat= a=20 on zfs. Presently there's 2x mirrors but it was a raidZ1 array at one time. I've had the SSD go bad so have simply replaced it, installed latest freebsd-12 from usb stick, then zpool imported my pools. I use zfs for the data I care about if it gets mangled. So config files backups go there as well. But such data doesn't need to be accessible very quickly, it just has to be fast enough. I've always known there'll be a performance penalty beca= use zfs does so much stuff, I'm not using high-end hardware, so for me it doesn= 't make sense to use zfs for the OS. Another point, you might want to make sure your cluster size for your pool = is the native size for your disks. If they're mismatched it can result in poor= er disk i/o. --=20 J. --FFoLq8A0u+X9iRU8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl5C2TEACgkQs8o7QhFz NAX+0g//dyj/jXdGPIHci5VZTtsjrhKS5IpHAhqBq4rk86yTgvGBNrchvLq7ctrm yGmM85kAfpHzhYkAboibKpjw1REClQ4oBB1y4Qqy1rshY6ubejW0S/VEiUCy5I7G Q/wTaVFCsvtDsyidHMbDr3oMkOlbEAt8ow2a0/cGP9U8RBNJCDevxpb7s7gm1z8Q 0uI6/pIjK6Usn26vd+UPF4A+BM/aU2h1MV7n395iOO1nidpAzmS9j/r6eRZtkNG4 XJohP1gJxt8yKt9JR14A5+dy9BRBVpVe09g5ae4vy0Ny3SWDknWtCoDcNCmS0omu OtBo1qibUuM79+IS174mkMyV0hqHkNVOzraQsINW2MMTtX6fMnOIYKwRLnPKGkq5 h5KFSXfZi8mgP5YckXtf4dhYWZ42dlmk9O0xXww07gViSeiByQtZCtc/GCMgdFLH TCzt8TcGftDYe1pnHfGNt1LlPxhRQZGvjtguW++sdZnsRvmwCJof2Ss85MCr9kwb 1vH96bl7J1X95Qim2aNmfoZ5It37Y5sDo+qRtj5Z+VfVYuu7wcqxW2o+Y4TduN0v /o+y6UK840/Wjwv60HviOce6h4/fCRR0BuGN/vEjEjWI8bn1jN9sYl2lLdHWCdtG BNgoe5TYJTNdwF0VdbkSNyPGzCh/a9dI7t4AyPmtLek6Xw2TVPc= =eHBl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FFoLq8A0u+X9iRU8-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 16:44:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D6E23B30F for ; 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charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 04:40:38PM +0000, tech-lists wrote: [...] might be an idea to have ~/.config and ~/tmp (and of course /tmp) on a SSD = as well --=20 J. --0QFb0wBpEddLcDHQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl5C2fwACgkQs8o7QhFz NAWjYQ/+KzPlnd3FZvi0EQ+lmNLd82UFSjKIAsqF1r+urXBa1ZvUeEZnKgxoCEbz icJc7N8mgpepg2JgAX9aSWkbZFJH9/4J7kjISD0251UvXCJdcXgf/S8XcCNzDSbo NDvHb7lbp7JM+cj/FN2Ji11OpKq8f3F+tKorOwptavWOaz52k20SVQzFAytS8O4i Oa12PZiQU71GfyJzrkaoa3BzyS1EVy71R08ze/idI3jdrYKH5SXtUZ092fP0d7/s MtIwLGxUcWpin//asEZX3yU5EGAAfUNnqUIa1OveTNccKUdtEXoutaJAm9Ie1SEr wgm/tpv//7/T06SdUMKSFkR9N+ApnCoM8sYVo8rkuoA00W5H0fJUReD9B0C19y0z pO8tWsApkPTo7MzHOYwofreVDAokgqWFPpYQ7WoiXiGhGDMXGQbfsjCq4juucQap 6Nm4RjKXDH8xLDkz4fVTVLNIDElL/GN0cOcTg3RBB+561cUDU0UKdIFiv8v4lLo0 BNIDXpcPL3akLcbqO1lZRrC6bUv05s47MTGHkQw1fhjJsrBBwylL/N4siCaW+ZF+ HvoscLQRinYlMV8XKKdPki1LgdMRE6ZDImjBG/wu+k2XxnvWP7gvqsoNggieciXq 3GlstgXb0N8Pq6aD3rEV4rR2zhPzNIP48JXP9xh95QAHX+sRd7s= =HWtg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0QFb0wBpEddLcDHQ-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 17:44:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAEF23CB43 for ; 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FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:44:22 -0000 I cannot get the Intel graphics driver to load on my laptop. I have "drm-kmod", and "xf86-video-intel" installed. I have 'kldlist="i915kms"' in /etc/rc.conf. I am a member of the video group. I am on 12.1-STABLE. If I try to boot normally the text is all garbled and unreadable. if I use "gop set 4" in the bootloader, the screen properly loads at a lower resolution. This computer uses UEFI, I am unable to turn it off. The system loads at the proper resolution on 13.0-CURRENT. The i915kms is loaded into the kernel. dmesg lists the graphics card as . This is an NVIDIA Optimus laptop, but I don't think that makes a difference because the intel card has control over the display. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 17:57:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E9123DA70 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:57:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from mail.nomadlogic.org (mail.nomadlogic.org [174.136.98.114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.nomadlogic.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48H9Tq4c9Fz4PM2 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:57:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from [192.168.1.141] (76-214-71-45.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net [76.214.71.45]) by mail.nomadlogic.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 14436c5a (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:57:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Intel graphics not loading To: Noah Palmer , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Pete Wright Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:57:29 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48H9Tq4c9Fz4PM2 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pete@nomadlogic.org designates 174.136.98.114 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@nomadlogic.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.01 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nomadlogic.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(-2.71)[ip: (-9.27), ipnet: 174.136.96.0/20(-3.91), asn: 25795(-0.33), country: US(-0.05)]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:25795, ipnet:174.136.96.0/20, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:57:36 -0000 On 2020-02-11 09:44, Noah Palmer wrote: > I cannot get the Intel graphics driver to load on my laptop. I have > "drm-kmod", and "xf86-video-intel" installed. I have 'kldlist="i915kms"' in > /etc/rc.conf. I am a member of the video group. I am on 12.1-STABLE. If I > try to boot normally the text is all garbled and unreadable. if I use "gop > set 4" in the bootloader, the screen properly loads at a lower resolution. > This computer uses UEFI, I am unable to turn it off. The system loads at > the proper resolution on 13.0-CURRENT. The i915kms is loaded into the > kernel. dmesg lists the graphics card as . This is > an NVIDIA Optimus laptop, but I don't think that makes a difference because > the intel card has control over the display. Hi, what is the Intel graphics adapter you are using on this system?  Do you happen to have the dmesg output from your system when it successfully loads the kernel module under CURRENT?  It also would be helpful if you could share your dmeseg buffer from 12.1-STABLE when it loads the drm-kmod module. Cheers, -pete -- Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 19:01:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D0E23F9A2 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:01:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48HBvs0d84z4VGP for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:01:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id m30so7783633lfp.8 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IjTGv1B0ocROYp/Zz+T7XloXz2aguxA5AuMNVh+rIsM=; b=LTGZm3cj+CSys/AMIOJvTE6U7A7dxt8dw5L+kOfNEms8IXerb3cI0FO0oS5vSzv2dj cZ40Bttx3m9mZlIjyzQ42f73jpFspiwaBsTACiJ6xNrtFnsC49apUyQX6Fud10nxiPwf +lBrD25KnqTDiN/x2cQo9QW5HLE2UYYHfoCtioLzFfuIVxIXeP21aFrcKbNbWldlQ0kR l997O/3HOqRBZpbj6y3BsNwxjczcL9UuAkDIyxvUSBncD5FjQ06xZ5qvyUeKVGMXAKf1 TLVhZSeKltT+TGlur3KUmMkJwSKM7nF8ozwSQG1/jbGrOdwEzY3467E93sGuxAhB+Rmt CbSA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IjTGv1B0ocROYp/Zz+T7XloXz2aguxA5AuMNVh+rIsM=; b=jWphH76ODCVDynZDcmH8vr66CkOaD6bg3yYK+YdPAoJaBRj+NdzNGMQhnW8GTIgxPa OLMTm+OdrUSmbf81A+azBGq1NZTodsnsRjdDo67vGRdXv2KSRzqKRmhtHrlIqRcKBWSc nNwUGfY+sBRDiW/WykQ8ybBU4PWNGu5FCXv5NtuSH9SN/Dl5dTonNw/2rjwcOyCoq2NB +ChPFHDaEQSsbWK1ROTBphmuSLk/R57BK+SgRPtI9pSZn2j0t4lxoClOtvoIwWid7C/8 ntpyXJODGG8+d8pAQV+OBIVUEvAn0WHwniNbcb/vHNEti4T0X0mcN+mZrczhoBZgC84r Z0Iw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUL0CdIHV6Qc4E3bK2h8AdktnDFMQBU2IhITwV84h8YyGx3kzAZ 0d0owpwPSPr8bq6ugzdarSXymOZRPq3xFRiW7pz8JKQn X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzDS0dvJPrYZwPEwHk1sOjlXJrZD+mqx2ZWMB+qCbXFSYDY1Gq03pM3xZDXPErZEsuXwH8dMtChZPj5mfe38BM= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:482c:: with SMTP id 12mr4368783lft.163.1581447703076; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:01:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Noah Palmer Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:01:32 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Intel graphics not loading To: Pete Wright Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48HBvs0d84z4VGP X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=LTGZm3cj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.90), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.46), asn: 15169(-1.71), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:01:45 -0000 On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 12:57 PM Pete Wright wrote: > > > On 2020-02-11 09:44, Noah Palmer wrote: > > I cannot get the Intel graphics driver to load on my laptop. I have > > "drm-kmod", and "xf86-video-intel" installed. I have 'kldlist="i915kms"' > in > > /etc/rc.conf. I am a member of the video group. I am on 12.1-STABLE. If I > > try to boot normally the text is all garbled and unreadable. if I use > "gop > > set 4" in the bootloader, the screen properly loads at a lower > resolution. > > This computer uses UEFI, I am unable to turn it off. The system loads at > > the proper resolution on 13.0-CURRENT. The i915kms is loaded into the > > kernel. dmesg lists the graphics card as . This > is > > an NVIDIA Optimus laptop, but I don't think that makes a difference > because > > the intel card has control over the display. > > Hi, what is the Intel graphics adapter you are using on this system? Do > you happen to have the dmesg output from your system when it > successfully loads the kernel module under CURRENT? It also would be > helpful if you could share your dmeseg buffer from 12.1-STABLE when it > loads the drm-kmod module. > > Cheers, > -pete > > -- > Pete Wright > pete@nomadlogic.org > @nomadlogicLA > > I should have been more clear with the 13-CURRENT thing, I haven't loaded the intel driver yet just the framebuffer load correctly. The only thing related to drm in dmesg is a message saying "drm loaded" late in the boot process. According to linux the adaptor is "VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation UHD Graphics 630 (Mobile)." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 19:22:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A132F240921 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:22:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trond.endrestol@ximalas.info) Received: from enterprise.ximalas.info (enterprise.ximalas.info [IPv6:2001:700:1100:1::8]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "ximalas.info", Issuer "Hostmaster ximalas.info" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48HCMz0l71z4X3S for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:22:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trond.endrestol@ximalas.info) Received: from enterprise.ximalas.info (Ximalas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by enterprise.ximalas.info (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 01BJMPmE053692 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:22:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from trond.endrestol@ximalas.info) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ximalas.info; s=default; t=1581448946; bh=87rFWLgf2N2GZxL/KBy1d2UCeHIduUpmJ7aKyjE8duY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=XQI3C07XRsBTTdpwehiD5GUFew7rb0B3LdwhzxXhYfIFZVSpac6duyLqY2fRqIGb1 +2jm6nbX6XIIxzQy+oeqqxgfK9dR3JIpbz4a0cbXNfhiN7wK52pN5eu0HMpslSacgL mQ9Y8D1Dz2YEiwHlF2mMNRmyJ+wCpLqckIVcHN2J5cdeg4nauerITsDHUwLiEyZEu1 T8BefQbkJh1SakCVHjLyF0nm29kd8N0iU2LqqfvKnTjpEgS8EKmZiqrL+52k3r9OwX OOGorFzIu7ffpZg8Exxvaq6TpBGjnxlU9xJjotbxjM+b83fbHDNE5sxW1d+TdZEJbt 6X4qZjKHZFdaw== Received: from localhost (trond@localhost) by enterprise.ximalas.info (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 01BJMP9A053689; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:22:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from trond.endrestol@ximalas.info) X-Authentication-Warning: enterprise.ximalas.info: trond owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:22:25 +0100 (CET) From: =?UTF-8?Q?Trond_Endrest=C3=B8l?= Sender: Trond.Endrestol@ximalas.info To: Noah Palmer cc: Pete Wright , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Intel graphics not loading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (BSF 395 2020-01-19) OpenPGP: url=http://ximalas.info/about/tronds-openpgp-public-key MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on enterprise.ximalas.info X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48HCMz0l71z4X3S X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ximalas.info header.s=default header.b=XQI3C07X; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ximalas.info; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of trond.endrestol@ximalas.info designates 2001:700:1100:1::8 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=trond.endrestol@ximalas.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.05 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ximalas.info:s=default]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ximalas.info:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ximalas.info,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:224, ipnet:2001:700::/32, country:NO]; IP_SCORE(-2.05)[ip: (-8.09), ipnet: 2001:700::/32(-1.39), asn: 224(-0.75), country: NO(-0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:22:40 -0000 On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:01-0500, Noah Palmer wrote: > On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 12:57 PM Pete Wright wrote: > > > > > > > On 2020-02-11 09:44, Noah Palmer wrote: > > > I cannot get the Intel graphics driver to load on my laptop. I have > > > "drm-kmod", and "xf86-video-intel" installed. I have 'kldlist="i915kms"' > > in > > > /etc/rc.conf. I am a member of the video group. I am on 12.1-STABLE. If I > > > try to boot normally the text is all garbled and unreadable. if I use > > "gop > > > set 4" in the bootloader, the screen properly loads at a lower > > resolution. > > > This computer uses UEFI, I am unable to turn it off. The system loads at > > > the proper resolution on 13.0-CURRENT. The i915kms is loaded into the > > > kernel. dmesg lists the graphics card as . This > > is > > > an NVIDIA Optimus laptop, but I don't think that makes a difference > > because > > > the intel card has control over the display. > > > > Hi, what is the Intel graphics adapter you are using on this system? Do > > you happen to have the dmesg output from your system when it > > successfully loads the kernel module under CURRENT? It also would be > > helpful if you could share your dmeseg buffer from 12.1-STABLE when it > > loads the drm-kmod module. > > > > Cheers, > > -pete > > > > -- > > Pete Wright > > pete@nomadlogic.org > > @nomadlogicLA > > > > > I should have been more clear with the 13-CURRENT thing, I haven't loaded > the intel driver yet just the framebuffer load correctly. The only thing > related to drm in dmesg is a message saying "drm loaded" late in the boot > process. According to linux the adaptor is "VGA compatible controller: > Intel Corporation UHD Graphics 630 (Mobile)." >From my experience, we must specify absolute pathnames and ensure the correct drm.ko is loaded prior to any GPU specific module: kldlist="/boot/modules/drm.ko /boot/modules/i915kms.ko" -- Trond. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 19:28:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C91C240B3F for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:28:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from mail.nomadlogic.org (mail.nomadlogic.org [174.136.98.114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.nomadlogic.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48HCVB1nhYz4XLw for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:28:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from [192.168.1.141] (76-214-71-45.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net [76.214.71.45]) by mail.nomadlogic.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 4f801d51 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:28:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Intel graphics not loading To: =?UTF-8?Q?Trond_Endrest=c3=b8l?= , Noah Palmer Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Pete Wright Message-ID: <614b0703-d025-744f-66f0-b0d55ceb03d0@nomadlogic.org> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:28:01 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48HCVB1nhYz4XLw X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pete@nomadlogic.org designates 174.136.98.114 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@nomadlogic.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.02 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nomadlogic.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.72)[ip: (-9.28), ipnet: 174.136.96.0/20(-3.94), asn: 25795(-0.33), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:25795, ipnet:174.136.96.0/20, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:28:03 -0000 On 2020-02-11 11:22, Trond Endrestøl wrote: > On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:01-0500, Noah Palmer wrote: > >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 12:57 PM Pete Wright wrote: >> >>> >>> On 2020-02-11 09:44, Noah Palmer wrote: >>>> I cannot get the Intel graphics driver to load on my laptop. I have >>>> "drm-kmod", and "xf86-video-intel" installed. I have 'kldlist="i915kms"' >>> in >>>> /etc/rc.conf. I am a member of the video group. I am on 12.1-STABLE. If I >>>> try to boot normally the text is all garbled and unreadable. if I use >>> "gop >>>> set 4" in the bootloader, the screen properly loads at a lower >>> resolution. >>>> This computer uses UEFI, I am unable to turn it off. The system loads at >>>> the proper resolution on 13.0-CURRENT. The i915kms is loaded into the >>>> kernel. dmesg lists the graphics card as . This >>> is >>>> an NVIDIA Optimus laptop, but I don't think that makes a difference >>> because >>>> the intel card has control over the display. >>> Hi, what is the Intel graphics adapter you are using on this system? Do >>> you happen to have the dmesg output from your system when it >>> successfully loads the kernel module under CURRENT? It also would be >>> helpful if you could share your dmeseg buffer from 12.1-STABLE when it >>> loads the drm-kmod module. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> -pete >>> >>> -- >>> Pete Wright >>> pete@nomadlogic.org >>> @nomadlogicLA >>> >>> >> I should have been more clear with the 13-CURRENT thing, I haven't loaded >> the intel driver yet just the framebuffer load correctly. The only thing >> related to drm in dmesg is a message saying "drm loaded" late in the boot >> process. According to linux the adaptor is "VGA compatible controller: >> Intel Corporation UHD Graphics 630 (Mobile)." > From my experience, we must specify absolute pathnames and ensure the > correct drm.ko is loaded prior to any GPU specific module: > > kldlist="/boot/modules/drm.ko /boot/modules/i915kms.ko" I would second this as well, I have an intel kabylake system with the HD Graphics 630 GPU and use this kldlist line in rc.conf: kld_list="/boot/modules/i915kms.ko" this system also boots via UEFI.  if this doesn't work might be helpful to post the full dmesg so people on the list can take a look. -pete -- Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 19:31:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBA7240DC3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:31:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48HCZF6gzCz4XfW for ; 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Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:31:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <614b0703-d025-744f-66f0-b0d55ceb03d0@nomadlogic.org> In-Reply-To: <614b0703-d025-744f-66f0-b0d55ceb03d0@nomadlogic.org> From: Noah Palmer Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:31:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Intel graphics not loading To: Pete Wright Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Trond_Endrest=C3=B8l?= , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48HCZF6gzCz4XfW X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=aQdJR6Ke; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.92), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.46), asn: 15169(-1.71), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:31:34 -0000 On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 2:28 PM Pete Wright wrote: > > > On 2020-02-11 11:22, Trond Endrest=C3=B8l wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:01-0500, Noah Palmer wrote: > > > >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 12:57 PM Pete Wright > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> On 2020-02-11 09:44, Noah Palmer wrote: > >>>> I cannot get the Intel graphics driver to load on my laptop. I have > >>>> "drm-kmod", and "xf86-video-intel" installed. I have > 'kldlist=3D"i915kms"' > >>> in > >>>> /etc/rc.conf. I am a member of the video group. I am on 12.1-STABLE. > If I > >>>> try to boot normally the text is all garbled and unreadable. if I us= e > >>> "gop > >>>> set 4" in the bootloader, the screen properly loads at a lower > >>> resolution. > >>>> This computer uses UEFI, I am unable to turn it off. The system load= s > at > >>>> the proper resolution on 13.0-CURRENT. The i915kms is loaded into th= e > >>>> kernel. dmesg lists the graphics card as . > This > >>> is > >>>> an NVIDIA Optimus laptop, but I don't think that makes a difference > >>> because > >>>> the intel card has control over the display. > >>> Hi, what is the Intel graphics adapter you are using on this system? > Do > >>> you happen to have the dmesg output from your system when it > >>> successfully loads the kernel module under CURRENT? It also would be > >>> helpful if you could share your dmeseg buffer from 12.1-STABLE when i= t > >>> loads the drm-kmod module. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> -pete > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Pete Wright > >>> pete@nomadlogic.org > >>> @nomadlogicLA > >>> > >>> > >> I should have been more clear with the 13-CURRENT thing, I haven't > loaded > >> the intel driver yet just the framebuffer load correctly. The only thi= ng > >> related to drm in dmesg is a message saying "drm loaded" late in the > boot > >> process. According to linux the adaptor is "VGA compatible controller: > >> Intel Corporation UHD Graphics 630 (Mobile)." > > From my experience, we must specify absolute pathnames and ensure the > > correct drm.ko is loaded prior to any GPU specific module: > > > > kldlist=3D"/boot/modules/drm.ko /boot/modules/i915kms.ko" > I would second this as well, I have an intel kabylake system with the HD > Graphics 630 GPU and use this kldlist line in rc.conf: > > kld_list=3D"/boot/modules/i915kms.ko" > > this system also boots via UEFI. if this doesn't work might be helpful > to post the full dmesg so people on the list can take a look. > > -pete > > > -- > Pete Wright > pete@nomadlogic.org > @nomadlogicLA > > That worked, thank you. --=20 Noah Palmer From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Feb 11 18:09:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EEF23E035 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:09:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.io (ciao.gmane.io [159.69.161.202]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48H9l41Ztnz4QCP for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:09:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1j1Zt9-000TQp-Ha for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:03:59 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Ottavio Caruso Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:03:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 In-Reply-To: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> Content-Language: en-GB X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48H9l41Ztnz4QCP X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.80 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.971,0]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 159.69.0.0/16(0.51), asn: 24940(-1.56), country: DE(-0.02)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.77)[0.767,0]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_REJECT(2.00)[yahoo.com : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:159.69.0.0/16, country:DE]; FORGED_MUA_THUNDERBIRD_MSGID_UNKNOWN(2.50)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:43:58 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:09:05 -0000 On 11/02/2020 15:50, tech-lists wrote: > Hi > > Which is it better to have - swapfile partition or swapfile? > > I have both, on a SSD. It's usually not a good idea to have swap on a SSD. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Feb 12 07:24:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E7724F757 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:24:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bennett@sdf.org) Received: from mx.sdf.org (mx.sdf.org [205.166.94.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mx.sdf.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48HWP50CTwz41cy for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:24:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bennett@sdf.org) Received: from sdf.org (IDENT:bennett@miku.sdf.org [205.166.94.6]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 01C7OcD1025747 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:24:38 GMT Received: (from bennett@localhost) by sdf.org (8.15.2/8.12.8/Submit) id 01C7OcSW005991; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 01:24:38 -0600 (CST) From: Scott Bennett Message-Id: <202002120724.01C7OcSW005991@sdf.org> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 01:24:38 -0600 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: terminology and history (was Re: Re updating BIOS) Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 6/20/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48HWP50CTwz41cy X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bennett@sdf.org has no SPF policy when checking 205.166.94.20) smtp.mailfrom=bennett@sdf.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.29)[ip: (-0.93), ipnet: 205.166.94.0/24(-0.46), asn: 14361(-0.03), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sdf.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.83)[-0.827,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[20.94.166.205.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14361, ipnet:205.166.94.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:24:42 -0000 On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:41:11 +0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Sun, 09 Feb 2020 02:09:59 -0600 >Scott Bennett wrote: > >> The first part of the above, mispunctuated pair of sentences is >> correct, but the latter part is not. FreeDOS, like PC-DOS and MSDOS >> before it, is/was not an operating system, but rather a more primitive >> creature known as a monitor system. > > The DOS part of those names is an abbreviation of 'Disc Operating >System' - clearly at the time they were considered operating systems even They may have been considered that by amateurs from the ham radio community or by the ignorant twerps like Bill Gates et al., who closed their eyes, ears, and minds to all that was already well known to people who had been working in the field for years. That Micro$lop has always misnamed things from time to time should come as no surprise to anyone here. Calling a radio a television does not make it a television. >though they started life as near clones of CP/M (Control Program/Monitor). And that was more correctly named, though/because it was *not* named by Micro$lop. >IBM 360 mainframes didn't have virtual memory, processes or any of the Virtual memory support was a very late addition to operating systems. Before that time, all operating systems and monitor systems were real memory systems only. While most System/360 models had no hardware features to enable operating system support for virtual memory, the model 67 had an extra foot or two of cabinetry filled with the Dynamic Address Translation unit and the CPU could run in standard PSW mode or Extended PSW mode. When in EPSW mode, address translation might be enabled or not. DOS/360 and OS/360 were real memory-only systems, but TSS/360 had full virtual memory support with most of the features that later virtual memory systems had. Although offered by Cambridge University, rather than IBM, CP-67/CMS provided virtual machine support. Some installations ran OS/MFT, OS/MVT, or later OS/MFT II in one or more VMs for batch processing and, for interactive users, CMS in users' VMs. All of this was around by the late 1960s. In the mid 1970s, IBM adapted CP-67/CMS for the enhanced System/370 models as VM 370/CMS and began releasing VM versions of its other systems (DOS/VS, OS/VS1 (i.e., virtualized MFT-II), and OS/VS2 SVS, and OS/VS2 MVS). >protections you mentioned, it didn't even have anything that would be "Processes" were called "tasks" in IBM's operating systems. MVT allowed subtasking, the closest analogue of which in UNIX would probably be threads. All System/360 models (except the 20 and perhaps the 25) either had storage protection standard or could be ordered with it as an option, and were supported by DOS/360 and OS/360 if present. I don't know whether TOS/360 provided storage protection support, TSS/360 required storage protection, but that was standard on the 67 (I think on all models 50 and higher, actually). It also used storage protection in a different manner from the other systems because it could effectively handle the original protection functions much better through memory mapping, while the storage keys could help in managing other matters. >recognised as a filesystem today (it had record oriented datasets) - but They used the standard Volume Table of Contents, which was both volume label and file system. (A file system need not provide a nested directory structure. IIRC, VMS also had a single-level file system.) They provided access methods, OS/360 having several more than DOS/360. OS/360 also had a systemwide catalogue of data sets for those that the user(s) told the OS to keep track of in a central location. They provided tape labelling and recognition, which UNIX systems still do not provide.. Although OS/360 could be installed with one of three options (PCP, MFT, or MVT), which determined to what degree the system would be a multiprogramming system, DOS/360 was a partitioned, multiprogramming system, roughly analogous to OS/360 MFT. (MFT only had one job scheduler running and had other scheduling limitations, too.) In later years, MFT was replaced by MFT II, which allowed many more partitions and with job schedulers running in partitions that were large enough. >OS360 was definitely considered an operating system. > > [MS/PC/DR/Free]DOS was a lot more like a mainframe batch operating No, that was my point. They were all like monitor systems (e.g., IBM 1620/1710 Monitor I). They did almost nothing for the user or program except for loading an executable program from a disk drive and accepting a return of control when the application program ended, so that the next program could be loaded and control transferred to it, just like {MS,PC,DR,Free}DOS. That was a big advantage over having to load a standalone loader on a deck of cards preceding every object program deck one wanted to run, but it certainly was inferior to an operating system. >system than a multi-user multi-tasking operating system such as Multics or Some operating systems embodied no concept of distinct users. For example, if one had not set up the use of accounting features in DOS/360 or OS/360, all users were effectively one. With accounting in use the resource usages could be kept separate for, say, billing purposes, but that was basically all. As far as privileges were concerned, a program ran in user (non-privileged) or supervisor (privileged) mode, but again there was no distinction among users. Very little outside of the supervisor itself ever was allowed to run in supervisor mode. (One exception was spooling systems like HASP, ASP, POP, GRASP, etc., which often came with their own SVC routines that made it possible for them to intercept unit- record I/O to be spooled.) >unix, but hijacking the term operating system to mean only the latterm, and I've been using the terms consistently since 1966. Said hijacking of terms was what I was complaining about. UNIX was very much a latecomer. There were many monitor and operating systems before its first appearance on the scene. Every manufacturer offered its own proprietary system(s). UNIX also was a real memory operating system for many years until after the VAX-11 models were released a decade or more after the 360/67 and at least three years after the 370s appeared that had hardware to enable virtual memory features of operating systems. (It is worth recalling here that VAX-11 stood for Virtual Address Extensions [to the PDP]-11.) >that only with hardware supported isolation mechanisms is revisionist. I >recall working on a unix(ish) system in the late 1980s that didn't have >hardware memory mapping or protection, or even fsck which made recovering >from (the frequent) crashes rather tedious (icheck, ncheck ...). ...which some filesystems did not/do not need. :-) > You have it backwards. Erasing prior computing history would appear to be "revisionist". You're commenting about a time two decades after the appearance of virtual memory features becoming available in both hardware and software, so I don't know what your point here is supposed to be. Furthermore, one of the TSS/360 developers once described to me how they were testing that system in a software simulator of the model 67 on a model 40 a year or two before the 67 hardware was available and working correctly. Note, too, that the VAXes, when they finally appeared, had a design flaw in that they had no reference bits to tell when pages had been accessed for reads, so the CSRG had to simulate reference bits in the kernel. That was kind of inefficient in comparison to reference bits set by the hardware, but far better than not keeping track at all. Why DEC made such a mistake after better examples had been on the market for a good decade I do not know. Scott Bennett, Comm. ASMELG, CFIAG ********************************************************************** * Internet: bennett at sdf.org *xor* bennett at freeshell.org * *--------------------------------------------------------------------* * "A well regulated and disciplined militia, is at all times a good * * objection to the introduction of that bane of all free governments * * -- a standing army." * * -- Gov. John Hancock, New York Journal, 28 January 1790 * ********************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Feb 12 08:31:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F38230EDD for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:31:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic307-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48HXsl6801z44NZ for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:31:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: x.1Q..QVM1kUuMXAPn0f9g3jGfF53dFiFu5L0EZKxlyVQw_PDG0qSnG4zokNcmz DIcrBO_lXuB3dW8DZFaFHEm746syOB4NVaZe4K30s.GfwqzJJADm2Tlp8IzM_Lj1c_kfPBSQn11g 9K7Jp6wimny2tST43K_kiEno5Z0Elcpgx5jaz5h_YnUcRCaLdflrAHSTmpd81j_Fb7l0RVxBczYN fsPuyG7iQR2ANcpmwG5vEjyzAGp85OWe.MjLnBZDS18rhWbEsAo5GeWjeqg95WQvx06I_UGU4j88 XsRAnzExZ7WyBfAeMQoRPxApkiGJ07BKIeXcQJKB3jeXguUAAWJCX.LOdpVOZW85UCvDXHP8MaS2 wiovQ9NREDm88M5WWzI0Olnv3ciQ3xB4H7x50SffMPyU7.KWzuqvL9sqMb3weN5GW0A2JNYLw6xt L1mWSEHHa5KpNJx0zCHV4rIDU3vWMyNgBkNKczTpTgAvsG4VAov3W54TSKC4987Kd6ek5cjEuZeD 0pAFwH2niL4ZZwDv4ebHbBkvVw1cZSbxIe3mXIpURZMWBvsOZgdDgHPjxTZswT__uFT5JU97L79_ gcaJH17XmhQJ.Px0YtZRDlKxozr_xrO5Jv8.rUqY0GG.TUG7KnVIMyh8pc9y62E4deL2vlPOhBli fYU7WJXGgi3KTyxuk.ilO2W.kZrWNM6Zr7vwepx2DG_pzw4tyllo2_NKu.kVERtEOAq5FqkcS9X9 eKn_5epzcJz9yreExyn4l.s3Gitfwb.zQqRoBBN0aUxrGxJNQihYrmZxkhSVSLXl.zBqKKXzkJFP 4NfM1spdRrQa64.5CbPvtg6ebVpE4mkkCmtRBNhGWsg2xSQAEsmsObh2WwrRscS__GXxZq68bpKz 2YygZAjHb84YwBcQ3ld0M5a8KD87DVvFIj4ILLWCwkJ83bosngAPZV.GaJbODqzLP7ZWfTgGsI.Q LsVysvO1C77AZIfMDj90a2QouWvIl1cRMTx645tFi7dCIQhyLPAQpQUIYbcSC6VHCHYRZwXCtqMc 6Gx2YIAiHsbd7C9J4embT9wTTGJSFw3aGMdHjIpUHQHD3ibNpeyyxs_bAGxZTUWVXvKPok8P3qXI IkEP9q_QxAW0YnFHdogkt_clDCflTpuxpKpIMidsEOaOJZY0XtqR79PN0ONk1WIXzu6wlbzmO8vy Kcj70gl9j79KhrVYGRiS7i3ghGs4jFTqbhePlcW_tCdhtTxg9TXL6szFfe4jEkd_1EQlOe29lMT1 _NdwK4jqqiHxi0ktfoW84G54lNpO7f_jWSTKgj.ZVZGg9ismJxEziIOHs8JvU2UI.xzUHLDrXuzd A6m0dwNscLfubarndafZHbjOA4uuYN4ufmT57djlsZos84Rfgpp2lwq_MZjTaxWV35_4RKFTdqv1 14MhIjyKZyp4Ur3A1NugZEJQ8ovaJyg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:31:06 +0000 Received: by smtp430.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID cadd9e5b9e7b8ab4dfcd3d718f6845d0; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:31:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f170.google.com with SMTP id a6so688063plm.3 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:31:04 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXaFiHgIT9kLUcWsDEJu6ptACxsJ9B9r6Gs6xH73nIjaTmxbjXR W7BaHi/wgm44gtrHLkVANQmfsc7VQ7dzkeEc6Ts= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz1p6y9fMsjFBFdWFA+Tn4Q+WT4qHt+GQHCHCGwtYIRcq1+UPecDIJ+O6VvAL43xQFsyas6g1FDvgl3f7K7OZ8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1256:: with SMTP id gx22mr8736850pjb.94.1581496264078; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 00:31:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002120724.01C7OcSW005991@sdf.org> In-Reply-To: <202002120724.01C7OcSW005991@sdf.org> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:30:47 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: terminology and history (was Re: Re updating BIOS) To: Scott Bennett Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48HXsl6801z44NZ X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.56 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.893,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[bennett@sdf.org]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[31.190.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.03)[0.033,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.91), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:31:09 -0000 On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 at 07:24, Scott Bennett wrote: > > On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 08:41:11 +0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > > >On Sun, 09 Feb 2020 02:09:59 -0600 > >Scott Bennett wrote: > > > >> The first part of the above, mispunctuated pair of sentences is > >> correct, but the latter part is not. FreeDOS, like PC-DOS and MSDOS > >> before it, is/was not an operating system, but rather a more primitive > >> creature known as a monitor system. > > > > The DOS part of those names is an abbreviation of 'Disc Operating > >System' - clearly at the time they were considered operating systems even > > They may have been considered that by amateurs from the ham radio > community Stopped reading here. The "amateurs from the ham radio community" are (and at least were back in the 70s) much more skilled than you paint them. The first form and shape of "workable" wireless data transmission was Packet Radio, developed by and for hams. 73 de M0TTV. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Feb 12 10:11:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177CC2334D7 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Hb5w0TXYz4B93 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:11:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581502308; x=1584094308; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=wFH7HGyTqCmaNoT7CdCw5Yto9qefXdaSLQ3RZqXVSnQ=; b=YH4a3ByarojmNWvHIPsfUp478pE+yTldIDlxxzqT50s66jTwoyQie034s7GTVb7oqZ59Ciqua16ic/CtGDjSZmXT5TIQ7m/YK2IZuQGZb+4//e5lDPbUcQn862NsflnKrd4VctCfN9Vf5N1pC93b18sVDWCFpqJXLdHlYKrHVqc= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi42ZTAwMDAwMmYyOTkzMy5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 12 Feb 2020 05:11:38 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 12 Feb 2020 05:11:37 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j1ozX-000N6N-ON; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:11:35 +0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:11:35 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Ottavio Caruso Subject: Re: terminology and history (was Re: Re updating BIOS) Message-Id: <20200212101135.6db335fed640cea2268389be@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <202002120724.01C7OcSW005991@sdf.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Hb5w0TXYz4B93 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=YH4a3Bya; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.88 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.31), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.61), asn: 7381(0.30), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yahoo.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:11:49 -0000 On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:30:47 +0000 Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > The "amateurs from the ham radio community" are (and at least were > back in the 70s) much more skilled than you paint them. The first form > and shape of "workable" wireless data transmission was Packet Radio, > developed by and for hams. Indeed KA9Q[1] was a wonderful piece of software essentially a multi-tasking operating system with a set of useful built in applications, that started in packet radio and wound up the goto tool for getting onto the internet at home. The alternatives for getting an MS-DOS machine online were horrendous by comparison. [1] I downloaded FreeBSD 1.1 using it. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Feb 12 17:04:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7266123D6CE for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:04:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gal.iecc.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48HmG2586yz4dtC for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:04:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: (qmail 65071 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2020 17:04:20 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fe2c.5e443014.k2002; bh=GkHsLSO1a9BrTKmdYcqVA7yEB/9ge7BOHSchBsMGVHM=; b=Q5Vac2Qi/N3vW7tbg49VS4+IkFZk4r2p4QDb/Lgx+vBmtWhFzN/+KV5KkKWxpHePZkopbm61WbxZcVkQg+jtTScGOEB79zIHmA4iArZCBz4n8IfLgLxi8oL/cvMVFz/Yb9osEuzs17h7mHB+hLOjQZpqkEVW5MgMqcrMQ4+ajr9DH6BlkArDKTDFJv2qVNheFx032v0nFrDygsJ5+d0BQwtdI+WfsdnVi8OLAkdvXC/lFwORQX97VA7VBG+eqyzU Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 12 Feb 2020 17:04:20 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2B9961450DF8; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:04:19 -0500 (EST) Date: 12 Feb 2020 12:04:19 -0500 Message-Id: <20200212170420.2B9961450DF8@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: bennett@sdf.org Subject: Re: terminology and history (was Re: Re updating BIOS) In-Reply-To: <202002120724.01C7OcSW005991@sdf.org> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48HmG2586yz4dtC X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=iecc.com header.s=fe2c.5e443014.k2002 header.b=Q5Vac2Qi; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=iecc.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of johnl@iecc.com designates 2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=johnl@iecc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.14 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[iecc.com:s=fe2c.5e443014.k2002]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[iecc.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.4.2]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:1f07:1126::/64]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[iecc.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[iecc.com,none]; IP_SCORE(-3.64)[ip: (-9.90), ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.65), asn: 6939(-3.58), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:04:27 -0000 In article <202002120724.01C7OcSW005991@sdf.org> you write: >that later virtual memory systems had. Although offered by Cambridge University, >rather than IBM, CP-67/CMS provided virtual machine support. Uh, no, it was the IBM Cambridge Scientific Center in Cambridge MA. It was in the same building where Project MAC was. CP was a skunkworks project, originally on a modified 360/40, then on a /67. It was quite embarassing that CP/67 was so much faster and more reliable than the flagship TSS. I used both; TSS would have been great if if worked, but it didn't. It was also not surprising, since CP was written by a small skilled staff while TSS had hordes of programmers trying to implement undebugged specs. >> [MS/PC/DR/Free]DOS was a lot more like a mainframe batch operating > > No, that was my point. They were all like monitor systems (e.g., IBM >1620/1710 Monitor I). They did almost nothing for the user or program except >for loading an executable program from a disk drive and accepting a return of >control when the application program ended, ... They also provided a file system, which was pretty important. I'd say they didn't provide quite as much as DOS/TOS but it was more than a batch monitor. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Feb 12 18:21:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D4A23F77F for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 18:21:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (net-2-44-121-52.cust.vodafonedsl.it [2.44.121.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Hnz82h5rz3Gg9 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 18:21:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from alamar.ventu (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01CILT6O058228 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 19:21:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be alamar.ventu To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Andrea Venturoli Subject: UFS filesystem hanged due to extattr Message-ID: <45b8ee58-b625-b3c8-8b53-07e4008c9db0@netfence.it> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 19:21:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Hnz82h5rz3Gg9 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 2.44.121.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.36 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:2.44.121.52]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; IP_SCORE(-1.56)[ip: (-7.78), ipnet: 2.44.0.0/16(-3.89), asn: 30722(3.86), country: IT(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 18:21:41 -0000 Hello. On a box of mine I tried tweaking Samba to use extended attributes (I think the details here are irrelevant and possible source of another discussion on the Samba lists). Everything worked fine until an user tried to access a particular directory: at that point his (Mac) client would crash and I ended up with a smbd process taking 100% of CPU time. Such process was unkillable by any mean and even a system reboot would not succeed (only the reset button did its job). After reboot I unmounted that filesystem, disabled soft update journaling and issued an "fsck -y" just to be sure: the file system showed no sign of troubles. Yet, accessing the extended attributes of a file inside that specific directory ends up in the same way. I.e.: Something like: find {dir} -exec lsextattr user "{}" ";" will end up with a process: lsextattr user {file} taking 100% cpu and not willing to die in any way. Any suggestion? bye & Thanks av. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Feb 12 19:27:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EDF2415DC for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 19:27:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jjohnstone-freebsdquestions@tridentusa.com) Received: from mail.tridentusa.com (mail.tridentusa.com [96.225.19.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48HqR21nD0z3PFC for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 19:27:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jjohnstone-freebsdquestions@tridentusa.com) Received: (qmail 31994 invoked by uid 1101); 12 Feb 2020 19:27:25 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Diagnostics: from mail.tridentusa.com by smtprelay.tridentusa.com (envelope-from , uid 7791) with qmail-scanner-2.11 (clamdscan: 0.101.4/25721. spamassassin: 3.4.2. Clear:RC:1(172.16.0.32):. Processed in 0.026772 secs); 12 Feb 2020 19:27:25 -0000 Received: from mail.tridentusa.com (172.16.0.32) de/crypted with TLSv1: DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA [256/256] DN=none by smtprelay.tridentusa.com with ESMTPS; 12 Feb 2020 19:27:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 68256 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2020 14:27:25 -0500 Received: from johnstone (HELO Johns-MBP.fios-router.home) (jjohnstone@tridentusa.com@192.168.249.6) by mail.tridentusa.com with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 12 Feb 2020 14:27:25 -0500 From: John Johnstone Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200211165552.e122bf2c.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200211162129.GC9715@bastion.zyxst.net> Message-ID: <5fbb06c0-0b87-4c1b-7b12-a4ad8a03cc6b@tridentusa.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:27:24 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200211162129.GC9715@bastion.zyxst.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48HqR21nD0z3PFC X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jjohnstone-freebsdquestions@tridentusa.com designates 96.225.19.3 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jjohnstone-freebsdquestions@tridentusa.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tridentusa.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.70)[ip: (-9.41), ipnet: 96.225.0.0/17(-4.71), asn: 701(0.66), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:701, ipnet:96.225.0.0/17, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 19:27:26 -0000 On 2/11/20 11:21 AM, tech-lists wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 04:55:25PM +0100, Polytropon wrote: >> On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:50:09 +0000, tech-lists wrote: >>> Which is it better to have - swapfile partition or swapfile? >>> >>> I have both, on a SSD. Thing is, I can write 10x faster to the >>> file than I can >>> to the partition. With a 512b block size, it can write at 17MB/s >>> to the >>> partition, and about 120-130MB/s to the swapfile, as reported by dd. >> >> Probably a partition is better because it saves the subsystems >> accessing it to deal with the filesystem layer. A swap device >> does not have a filesystem, and it's not under VFS control, so >> no overhead of that kind. > > But given there's no overhead, then why on the face of it is it slower > than a > swapfile? It is the memory management part of an OS that writes and reads memory areas to swap space. It does so directly without using dd or going through the OS file system handling. So whatever testing you are doing to try to benchmark the performance of things cannot be compared to what the OS does when it is using swap space. Also file system caching can dramatically change the performance numbers that will be reported when doing file I/O. Maybe you are just measuring 130MB/s of I/O writes generated by dd that are going to the write cache before they are written to disk. If that's the case you're just measuring the speed of I/Os hitting memory and not the disk. Powerfail your system 0.5 seconds into your test and then check and see if you actually got 65MB of data written to your disk. If you are seeing 17MB/s of writes going directly to a partition there will be no caching involved. Although that also is not exactly what the OS does it will be a much closer comparison to the OS swap I/O. - John J. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Feb 12 22:55:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B02245910 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 22:55:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x330.google.com (mail-ot1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Hw2r4ztrz47St for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 22:55:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x330.google.com with SMTP id b18so3710758otp.0 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:55:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=09DRpCm5Z4Aa178L5F8shIGU73rzBiIXTPLvx88Eav8=; b=NpaZZhqQVy9PJ9uMbF71wXV61/yrybAbOGF0R+degN+yr465pg81vkrNcczCIoyjju JR88S9AG5HdMqhxo0ceQ8NKAHH+VPhNBBfLxg65VRmyBGqlG4N+xkr3Pc1CW9sywyJf6 ZvrG+0/NM0hYwoIMkK5G7gXYBiiM9aZ9fqArIdonbrS1OycUabtz0JHL8MMnMnYKI5tD lHgmsiblhJw52FxKyPXRrQBpP9EHr5EWKF2cCbNVfm97Cqfbp7nZIKRqaf/opHM3ZdZD agXaPyf99DdK/b9G9/EVD6wJ7eT8Jbe4gx4KWO1xRWq4IBPlHSj557HH7y2omYUga0zf bEDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=09DRpCm5Z4Aa178L5F8shIGU73rzBiIXTPLvx88Eav8=; b=ULR5+TvE9c1EaGLVpNSIV+1hKKjHN/Qp9G63zZmsSX4/i3L+b5QxbonMzKlvdgDExc ciE8+dUpQ1ErKykLebfi+k+SD+qGEvQUFdyezthC4ixAZ9sTxHeZ2NWiOzNvC3r8rHQV hLEDHpHY3vkfWT3FD4oZK4YGlTNkASmOlZ9gaaYkn7RB0t5OgJu5ykr5vR89bHGcWOp5 K8dFyxJSYPxhDJDzZHjJQLgFsv64TEBvfKEb+jQIntsRiBBTSUhAr9bE1TYgGZR8OciR jCd+z+StjPw1tLYFzYanMvjG6E42URPSUlaumZpFwwhH1YlCwvCWVMq2I0aBWQv6BI1m RMRw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVjPzsuTCPatv+2mcJZdeEuacurXcoEtJ0qRCY5wv9SWM6QZj2+ OFBnpBLuaScF7W1hdfSxpp6ReqFKbX3IS19f X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxKtHFrEEbsQDTnNcTlQXqf8tZ66LRSoVBuxn7/GFg9tzP+AGQuWYZvZI/VFbIot2jTNqs+yg== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:22:: with SMTP id 31mr10461158ota.173.1581548114379; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f54.google.com (mail-ot1-f54.google.com. [209.85.210.54]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y6sm150323oti.44.2020.02.12.14.55.13 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f54.google.com with SMTP id i6so3666772otr.7 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:55:13 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7d87:: with SMTP id j7mr10683485otn.159.1581548112812; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 14:55:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <45b8ee58-b625-b3c8-8b53-07e4008c9db0@netfence.it> In-Reply-To: <45b8ee58-b625-b3c8-8b53-07e4008c9db0@netfence.it> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 23:54:56 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: UFS filesystem hanged due to extattr To: Andrea Venturoli Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Hw2r4ztrz47St X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=NpaZZhqQ; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::330) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-2.28)[ip: (-7.75), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-1.92), asn: 15169(-1.70), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 22:55:17 -0000 On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 7:21 PM Andrea Venturoli wrote: > (..) > Something like: > find {dir} -exec lsextattr user "{}" ";" > will end up with a process: > lsextattr user {file} > taking 100% cpu and not willing to die in any way. Hey Andrea can you please provide UNAME -A details? I noticed some processes hang in a similar way until (software) reboot on 12.1-RELEASE AMD64, however I am working on ZFS and the cause seems different (X11). -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 06:34:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7017124EB80 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:34:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (net-2-44-121-52.cust.vodafonedsl.it [2.44.121.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48J6Dg38kJz4Y99 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:34:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from alamar.ventu (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01D6YK9f008209 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Feb 2020 07:34:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be alamar.ventu Subject: Re: UFS filesystem hanged due to extattr To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List References: <45b8ee58-b625-b3c8-8b53-07e4008c9db0@netfence.it> From: Andrea Venturoli Message-ID: <844b2717-a67b-2606-ee92-0b93b92ad248@netfence.it> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 07:34:20 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48J6Dg38kJz4Y99 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 2.44.121.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:2.44.121.52:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; IP_SCORE(-1.58)[ip: (-7.87), ipnet: 2.44.0.0/16(-3.93), asn: 30722(3.86), country: IT(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:34:28 -0000 On 2020-02-12 23:54, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Hey Andrea can you please provide UNAME -A details? Sorry! Of course I should have provided that in the first place... This is a 11.3p6/amd64 machine. bye & Thanks av. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 08:24:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BAA1250F23 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:24:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (net-2-44-121-52.cust.vodafonedsl.it [2.44.121.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48J8gD1HsBz4dxX for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:24:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from alamar.ventu (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01D8O2DG018431 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:24:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be alamar.ventu Subject: Re: UFS filesystem hanged due to extattr To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List References: <45b8ee58-b625-b3c8-8b53-07e4008c9db0@netfence.it> From: Andrea Venturoli Message-ID: <201d27ee-1618-14fa-a974-e4c62e058021@netfence.it> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:24:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48J8gD1HsBz4dxX X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 2.44.121.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.39 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:2.44.121.52]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; IP_SCORE(-1.59)[ip: (-7.91), ipnet: 2.44.0.0/16(-3.95), asn: 30722(3.86), country: IT(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:24:09 -0000 On 2020-02-12 23:54, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Hey Andrea can you please provide UNAME -A details? I noticed some > processes hang in a similar way until (software) reboot on > 12.1-RELEASE AMD64, however I am working on ZFS and the cause seems > different (X11). I filed a bug for this: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=244089 bye & Thanks av. 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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:34:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:34:11 +0000 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) Message-ID: <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JJtq1mBSz420b X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm1 header.b=liSBXkc/; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=hpatztox; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 64.147.123.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[zyxst.net:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; 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charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 06:03:26PM +0000, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questi= ons wrote: >On 11/02/2020 15:50, tech-lists wrote: >>Hi >> >>Which is it better to have - swapfile partition or swapfile? >> >>I have both, on a SSD. > >It's usually not a good idea to have swap on a SSD. Why is this?=20 For clarity, I mean a proper SSD not sdcard thanks, --=20 J. --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl5FXnUACgkQs8o7QhFz NAU27g/6A7eGlDx3jHOPahnNvTbtW+mDlCn0LbUIlahv5WoUfP6M36uIHV96rQg3 V7lVmL1dWnydBP/Q9gPYFgLFOXFA0317RrkRlV1rKbfkFuMoX8wgDsf/Vop4bXDc 9qRJ39VfwgRjJV3vp5hfehzt7xWfA7f06dC1BVDKurvZAsVbrER9fvmk+LOVRyTG eTSdAVp9li5fsGr9cqjcD6qA3D7H7R4uLAaGDAj4XizRwUgyNjPd3R/RgXffn06o hbUvywfd/5k9sr86mWTiBlXWK+FrOjhAXfL7OTq5PA99GaEtbfmOB+0gRR5zN0o9 LJdWknGM1/5006Y03YPdmGuFMJ71GKQ/O2gUaDRSAwYW5omuJcZlclhiopv9Hr+0 TkOZyd8/YC8huF1Aa12bSi/QMgptChY6f6WoQGCtG9AcNO2Q4w8WtyVCvPzQ/SFY k1DC0AsPHJ3RdFFTM+P/02tckW9CGT/HmzB4/JCDgM/xUI3W176gzKQ2RAv1xvvI Bvd+Q0i56P4UdaIqYEeb1peWSqV4yxLxKVOvZt+fWt01LUgd5fSdStlYlvnKOf2S WB9Zm1bv7RSMa1S9+uiacRNQbZ0UIVAxbcHD3GPlNR/E14o5zaJMcdFmIaX3FKwg c2Jz+5WydGdk4k+CvRuYHV0u0q2M75L7eWTxC8wlJDR8/lDCW7g= =8i50 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 15:03:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B829E1C9181 for ; 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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:02:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:02:29 +0000 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting Message-ID: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iFRdW5/EC4oqxDHL" Content-Disposition: inline X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JKWS0rX8z43wr X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm1 header.b=jbsrUfrr; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=LovbdQBw; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 64.147.123.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[zyxst.net:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; 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charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, [1] When a new (12.x) amd64 system is installed, the partition defaults to MBR.= I normally use this as it's the default. I don't run mixed-OS systems; they a= re all freebsd. But I understand that GPT is newer or "better"? If GPT is "better" then why is it not the default? My use case is always ufs for the OS and zfs for data. Would it be "better"= to use GPT when installing a system? [2] The bsdinstaller defaults to 4GB swap. Isn't this insufficient on a 32GB system? Doesn't swap need to be 2x RAM on a fast disk? The next install I do I'm thinking of making 2x 32GB swap partitions. These being on the same SSD as the base OS. Would you consider this to be suboptimal, and if so, why? thanks, --=20 J. --iFRdW5/EC4oqxDHL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl5FZRgACgkQs8o7QhFz NAWyzhAAjBdK5gqv8YaytS9ebuePEybgp8VmFh4N4aZaEx9QklSZWZBw/ttQq6hv pfv9n4tVW2FSYc/rg9nHbrUI01lac9fOhS0sZquZqLrH/8bAb/mvHzEMyGQzvWRv 1JH26jqNj7RPSYbImfBXcV8L5a9PrcoCNkhGao4WOspMpBoRTX7Bbieyt6dX8L/V A1NDwpAdeUmO6GjsqAojdNBrsfkTxIn+lj6FZ32cTYkanKmoab788I6FWCjso+jh GIwEjWXXKIJIkclxu1YkSODQzpGu+ZcZjkRgTYlXapkNJULbgreRRl7oiG6btAbk 7NhwAkLNBLjEFGlAIkxqu9aJpiyySjD1orq+WHaQwAgWPCqcYbeGjom/UmWA0/Qq F40SE/m2+PvANKSd+9ngOyljPyWozaJBPLmvamN0iU4LdcsK1tI3lEWe9XppqgMD /BvueqSFMYmW183x7fojvF+tRamx3ru+F/jeZND4gbxHsncgrDZjKfI9K8g4fJzJ TBORySv+uTiZNyX4MY5CL+Ayq+RrgOqV4Vpz8jH8TsiIZWNie5bkSOEv43xHBwGv RjWVaWNjDBBui0J1syTyPm5a7Xspc/UwOtRkxr00TkN0F9xrIpgehtk3cWItV+/s CwNZ0a42E2fIYRm1t0x0QVI3m1TWtiS9jyZvWO9hOmn8U3KaQs0= =0Abb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --iFRdW5/EC4oqxDHL-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 15:14:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFDC1C9A4E for ; 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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:14:30 +0000 Received: by smtp417.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a7f42010cfe66a37562d08cdc71fb238; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:14:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f179.google.com with SMTP id g6so2457947plp.6 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 07:14:24 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXdsa19gqF1mCBA/PhtaZ4s+K2/FdWd7OWq5JIxpa0O+4sndEqd 7NZ6s3vuJkCQ8+bPDTvMq7+AvsniaoxNiNI6wRs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqymtp+Yypq31NmS3rnqE6wpa+qXPpdL4NHRskpZYsrG9PgKNeN6qNVGinUmsgoOlFqz6NmwG3kq74EFJiAhk3I= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:8a8f:: with SMTP id x15mr5845112pjn.87.1581606863640; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 07:14:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> In-Reply-To: <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:14:07 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JKml733rz44yP X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.938,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.979,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[200.184.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.28), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:14:32 -0000 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 at 14:34, tech-lists wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 06:03:26PM +0000, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > >It's usually not a good idea to have swap on a SSD. > > Why is this? A simple Google search would tell you. There are contrasting opinions on the subject, but this has been discussed to death in the last 10+ years. I personally wouldn't put a swap partition on a SSD, unless it's dedicated SSD and you're willing to replace it if/when it fails. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 15:19:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C37F1C9DD8 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:19:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic302-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic302-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JKtj6b9yz45MB for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:19:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: .gGoOVkVM1mFQ8w6l9G0kIHk5neIXKQ.9R1oUe_V3bhdAOgpbTbtxDyT0RH6BkS bmXZTmGd4ezZ7ORSUdHaVbgcftbBlLVXEfR9L40JxpM6vynVPd6bsQeo9cEzvgy7ZPkb9n.9Gnk9 7.81s8A77wAAf0bD80wgNlfyX_g9ok8ImKTFfx9yT1JhvYOF01Dws5xrR5hA76Jd3anphRCGQUW3 0bEx.I._aFVjqeDAQeoFDOIFVpP5XtMKztBKl2k8QsFg9XRgFeCGsVK4WaqZQjWS4ez6.4t3Olyu 9UP1f9XYipTsyagxmDuasLHunlZK2Pd1KL4un7dEcS3oLz3WCt4JjyplCRI2wnn5ODQyD6naJWTz 08QhuFq.tqbR5JKAMX.adNkSJI.e9vrkhOM_teNwytztCllwz0x_l7CQ6KYjfXhsyrHAi6ozUnVh 8cILZchuCchqE6vvNzq_4_sUJMbpKk1nMr17NY6n1piJfkizw.UlV7.7jjWzRcptu.uu8psK0CdY JCnqQNd3fqkoEm46lnx8qqMnj6YKdyWE5JEMDbnx0ErvtmGgqQBif4eImyt3C.0Z_mG.ypvqLHqA zJzd9YPob3JwkVC3IohhdsThYnP_KVbfTnd5BduqRI.mirBtceeCA9kiUTudvjrhLMQhlkWXrS1o Vgp1Btrt7zsfW3sl84RODJzfAkGctMNfyLSsSkh830FZ8VXH0rVG8SqgycHAYcIfhavCe7dtxe0L QeqKDuoU5WfycPz5m0nmgPxttGKVmXWj1LqMwiS5S2y1OveLg3h7.22igFm35tRGmYcIruwN3ATa Qf014ARLcJSH03Hb5jE3Vp_psZggEr.V5eBUQXy1b95brJv7gw1HXfW9dEfxjBR1sENNRlNAFrC2 hUyo35dYmhPYPDiMiAe59ucmFYllJnYknihYKl8BNHgFhTjbX7TRe1_7bD4rq7_L0k5b7kDWSARK e6jWEagwijv_sPYnh9VmAF4J2b1ZmVkH0bu6Np8Nr.ne8BfzMjaiYhSFkB.FwaDvhaGMEK7A5MKY sAT6l5UuX8AQZaDJCZLjPja.CAd7KN6JPawQzUj.TplWyKIFvPQhvRtTpB4zLiSTCb6H63vjtA1g YoAREkQuyOSWLlrOAGz.KbbwKcsWTmYvdiHZaaRUVDiKo1unyctOrn_R6329yTi_aYFJhw7MYlxs yuQEosKlWaE8ATwxFNl_VR0h9t2ymU.Lo3218tByU2.Li8t4fQOsC5WbZvCv3jlqHJarXjl7CeUl 5NJgoy_RNyH1pRyZiObZpByM7CEIOn46ehZI4Wp074AedJtftdmECn1BeERJoJHdS7F_7HoSnaVV loryMXLIi5MG8cNXM0v4U8b2Hrcz5fkcyrJhHvdsn1c3BNE5QEe.qSWErHjJ6H.NsrlHp6Pt3Unp 5BL6oJ1dASAtWys0lHy6N Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:19:40 +0000 Received: by smtp412.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c463182f77fc6a7553e71814eb21ad30; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:19:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f44.google.com with SMTP id f2so2792416pjq.1 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 07:19:35 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVF4a7dxt+lnpZfeVHrD9lnDwO8cMK4ZQXBqS3RogA0tMkxqSRN ln6rDdXVnuVSN5KYK96b5n0UA345NVhEDoT6EIA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxdaGjBYoGMWYtmB2BL4WxQsHTIJhiEp7haQfVL9q0YLw3Kx8yU1CqiJldVUMCQQFeEU7Sdaw3V899fbFemh1A= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:407:: with SMTP id 7mr27873082ple.226.1581607174229; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 07:19:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> In-Reply-To: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:19:18 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JKtj6b9yz45MB X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.941,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.981,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[147.186.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.26), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:19:43 -0000 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 at 15:02, tech-lists wrote: > The bsdinstaller defaults to 4GB swap. Isn't this insufficient on a 32GB > system? With 32GB RAM you might not even need swap at all, ever. I, personally, wouldn't even bother, but that depends on the load. > Doesn't swap need to be 2x RAM on a fast disk? No, this is really an old assumption. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 15:35:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0955D1CA7C8 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:35:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JLDX57y1z46vf for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:35:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.39.141]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MFbFW-1jH5QJ3USM-00H88Y; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:35:02 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:35:00 +0100 From: Polytropon To: tech-lists Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting Message-Id: <20200213163500.845bb868.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:X1tUgwBjpUI37L3B0XV+CvrxR9Nh0Sm2QFwcDiusG8TB3kr6Dv1 g9FUijAPjnfDTNvhaLxNGmX2N4IGvAxQTGLFM0GFfqEwjbJUSyQVONHh1MkawABKQijhz42 667Dld6n+M2At55KOEvqk7KdX7fCy0U2s9TP+/oHhX9P48mc5vQvSTsxYe42qyyZavs2pOc JKaFkhlqEXapGb0S8ljDQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:fvs2ZxFdUdg=:Hi7w7iuK2TfyRvL9dRUTV5 KSiUhYFYNyvXoFCtU9rilrGfbM7PFL7tIFbY0MHEq1NqZe/9T7/Rxfherl0iYSdsfg/JSO+zW Fn01/WDITiOSAPBtPI4clSBrIqlpo5q8r0xYCbfCfAB+44wHGWNnC07qQ14nblOwg/cdG1hf0 uhtduQCnzlAUIUkjPIYrak0z9t7YK93VEt+TX0fA3mZcecWgVtrNpDlePDqqAKXiiYYUhLuiU x0060ReMBThcCfSceAkEYMd2WItTNQJqBJ9csQlANuHiVdMUzFsEBVvzKAUN72VqOU4iyKdJD FmHZa1ubEvx5niFmmUKmF7LndpYcQ+jmjLP7stgu1avSnMNl/cLFq2n2Bjt2tYrfSGE4nDWB4 QNq9MPXtMRkjeimYgoykqQqF7c+qgcHzl1f5vh2BFxqjDDKp5aRPgzzngk0jrBiCwjF4jG2bi IVToF1QCEYV4RHHEsgAd643trLUQNtARkiKxrTd1TcAGuNvXss5LeG0PWXhMWgnyf/qKSXFMU JlrgOD5PYGeQT5xHSPcTQYQN69cgvgsPzvI7u/+ifpSy4/yowcOB/9ui+wzgBDUnGLvA26kAk tIV5VTtUNVKqyh2Qv2U2J/2xv3IPl6EJatXeT+JfQYUhmXN+w+chpkMyUvl4lOebNx9yENskW Yky37deNxD1h5JLTMAcK4QYJkaYNwlpTrKvonRE3ZxOYQJ9IiDnDFzxE4EVxtmT0mkX6VjNz6 VtSOb0LEgHGiWHAXYHbfm9SulGStjSomvynvcfHuyK2ep9M8r4coDUNIUqJD74jhe8MXH2xnC yqqUnNQrCnESNdkYeXuQ1jDibCfcR+LivMLCXwuhPj91sXC1K8EJx2JUiQ/O9IsVyhJ9N4s X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JLDX57y1z46vf X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.47 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[141.39.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.75)[0.749,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.992,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.33)[ip: (0.59), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.13), asn: 8560(2.21), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:35:10 -0000 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:02:29 +0000, tech-lists wrote: > [1] > When a new (12.x) amd64 system is installed, the partition defaults to MBR. I > normally use this as it's the default. I don't run mixed-OS systems; they are > all freebsd. But I understand that GPT is newer or "better"? > > If GPT is "better" then why is it not the default? I always thought it was! Have a look at the documentation: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/bsdinstall-partitioning.html As you can see from the suffixes -p1, -p2, -p3 and so on, this is GPT, not MBR. Also check: http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/disksetup.html > My use case is always ufs for the OS and zfs for data. Would it be "better" to > use GPT when installing a system? A valid answer is: If you don't have good reasons to use MBR, _don't_ use it. No multi-OS setup - you don't need MBR. MBR adds an additional layer (the "DOS primary partition", a. k. a. slice) to store the FreeBSD partitions, which are limited in terms of letters, whereas GPT can use numbers. If the only purpose of the UFS part of the system is to boot FreeBSD, why not go with dedicated install, i. e., don't use GPT/MBR partitioning at all? You can create labels (partitions) on the "bare drive", or you can put everything into one big 'a' boot partition. Put the ZFS disks under ZFS's control. > [2] > The bsdinstaller defaults to 4GB swap. Isn't this insufficient on a 32GB > system? Doesn't swap need to be 2x RAM on a fast disk? That was the rule decades ago, but I've heared it with the specific mentioning of "2 x _maximum_ RAM of machine", so when you could put 8 GB into the thing, but you only had 4 GB installled, 16 GB was the swap size according to that rule. I'm not sure it still applies. Maybe swap size today is much more driven by the kind of workload and the swapping scenario you're _maybe_ or _probably_ going to encounter. > The next install I do I'm thinking of making 2x 32GB swap partitions. These > being on the same SSD as the base OS. Would you consider this to be > suboptimal, and if so, why? Two on the same disk (even as a SSD) sounds strange. The system now has to manage two swap spaces. Maybe it's better to create one 64 GB swap partition, if SSD size allows it? The idea behind two swap partitions, if I remember correctly, dates back to a time where disk access was slower, and by using two disks with independent R/W and seek times was a speed improvement. On the same disk, you probably don't have that advantage because no "in parallel" is possible. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:53:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:52:56 +0000 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting Message-ID: <20200213155256.GD14144@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hoZxPH4CaxYzWscb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JLdh52Zqz48jG X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm1 header.b=YtHCHX23; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=BlvJkP8W; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 64.147.123.20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; 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charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 03:18:51PM +0000, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questi= ons wrote: >On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 at 15:02, tech-lists wrote: >> The bsdinstaller defaults to 4GB swap. Isn't this insufficient on a 32GB >> system? > >With 32GB RAM you might not even need swap at all, ever. I, >personally, wouldn't even bother, but that depends on the load. The load can get rather high: 1. poudriere for a desktop, so lots of ports 2. poudriere will eat swap with a bulk run with the larger ports. I've watc= hed it run out of swap then the OS killed the running processes 3. the OS is on the ssd and data (including poudriere) run on zfs. >> Doesn't swap need to be 2x RAM on a fast disk? > >No, this is really an old assumption. OK, but doesn't it need to be at least the size of RAM if for example a pan= ic happens? I thought the contents of RAM were written to swap. --=20 J. --hoZxPH4CaxYzWscb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl5FcOkACgkQs8o7QhFz NAVWYxAAjTv3+fIy40/eq4DLa2zvFjcAQNcrfHF8y3pnTJWubZJ19jaX5hgOm7wi tsqFqnQRP6rNxqBoVazSrw6piRkR3zzZnaRzugQbQcx54FglaSnBx8Jl2XYiGg4F Dnmpkv+wadxOrpqTQFP46VOQwrwolJK4G88S7PSCC44Q3scxBLKlx9QGJRU9tNLd frjjwEn6mNrtGvJLl3WEPTau01EgAdnKKZtmisLHmzQAenYp5qIW16jm0k/Wt6gF CriM6eUEwcw1O6WJqINw2yXSbQ87DauoMbtwV4kGGPE0IuOYzrfM4mBZR734mVxL kbfGsZGnu+Kr/68+MejBO+SHqAsD+L1YDROWj9udzoR9lMBvW2aGdtoEu9mLU1QB cGfnWGKS6MlnZu9bNKv1i3K3+FeushNVtOm8R0AkatXKaQZd6RCfgMF3sXVcke3u irGXdNkuu6poX970pQ/mcRRelOSulUvsnb+dRe+SRnevXffEp1YEbUlFCOnrAVLl 7NYP+Y36GBFlwroktjqxSq71PYB+d26cIZyOP8hAXGBEtsDgt48ZxatOHiY/wlMe SjijY+7TImP0WeHiz3CAo8ALNJ1FmbiVj9av9e2J+4KJwTKreDqeYNF74oT6q37L W3S3/KOMhZ5iHdGSxcwQ+ilYmYBK8pcWeme26nEIi99P8/A5W7E= =VI/R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hoZxPH4CaxYzWscb-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 16:07:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D0E1CB9AA for ; 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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:07:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213155256.GD14144@bastion.zyxst.net> From: yp@mm.st Message-ID: <1090523a-377c-9412-5db1-38e825e35956@mm.st> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 19:07:21 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200213155256.GD14144@bastion.zyxst.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JLxv3Xfbz49jP X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=mm.st header.s=fm2 header.b=a6HkdIOn; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=VpcNcUeX; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=mm.st; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yp@mm.st designates 66.111.4.221 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yp@mm.st X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[221.4.111.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:66.111.4.221]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[mm.st]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[mm.st:+,messagingengine.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[mm.st,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[221.4.111.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[157.4.155.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[mm.st]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[mm.st:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.80), ipnet: 66.111.4.0/24(-4.89), asn: 11403(-2.68), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:07:32 -0000 tech-lists wrote: [...] >>> Doesn't swap need to be 2x RAM on a fast disk? >> >> No, this is really an old assumption. > > OK, but doesn't it need to be at least the size of RAM if for example a > panic > happens? I thought the contents of RAM were written to swap. Now this is something I wanted to ask as well, as I didn't find anything really describing what needs to be done for large (not really so this days, 32 and higher) RAM systems -- I have a system with 64GB RAM and adding a 64GB swap partition makes system unhappy (I don't remember the exact message). With minidumps and all, what size it should be so that dump is guaranteed to be saved? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 16:24:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEF51CC26D for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:24:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JMJz4M6rz4Bnf for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:24:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581611044; x=1584203044; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=/bc6lV4opJ6bjrD1tk/VlxoOdp8NvVxcs4xCsw6yD4I=; b=kt/UDmZvcOz3JQ93aMCsASsbL3pHIWHt2nVwwaeU4IBKEsxuUdvzevzw7xWGRrFBic+7f/pnJ+NUMSvN5CBlA7M42bbvM3UhdVHVfNZfshGQJzvLAvT5xDVr6U7HfzS6MXRTkE0jtf9MGW4TV6iYc+Ep4gCnUAwCIrhJT8iks8U= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDE5YTEwOS5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.h.in.socketlabs.com (r2.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:24:00 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:23:59 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2HHS-0005JA-5V; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:23:58 +0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:23:57 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: tech-lists Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting Message-Id: <20200213162357.71aaf1dbd0f2ccb0743b0cd7@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200213155256.GD14144@bastion.zyxst.net> References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213155256.GD14144@bastion.zyxst.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JMJz4M6rz4Bnf X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=kt/UDmZv; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.31), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.60), asn: 7381(0.29), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:24:04 -0000 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:52:56 +0000 tech-lists wrote: > OK, but doesn't it need to be at least the size of RAM if for example a > panic happens? I thought the contents of RAM were written to swap. These days the default dump is a mini-dump with just the kernel memory so you only need enough swap to hold that, but if there's no swap (or I think if there's insufficient swap) then there won't be a crash dump. More details here: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/developers-handbook/kerneldebug.html -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 20:09:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D0C23312A for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:09:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JSKY61X9z4TlJ for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:09:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1581624592; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=mdubk5A8aQhyk36Asvz9mCXd1Ek=; b=QUAK/LZaHBaJQ/yvyoTEJZwOImGBZI5FFSyuk4eUlnFS+EKz9PU/dm6518hDFhRJ mKYXOVd13aTus5qRQM+8uW6/Qn6ijxVezHYsM7AC8MCO6wu5I8Yv26odqgdGqwx1 ds3arR7akxgtC82zvJQ7SjmMspCyscQWfnt0gOFM6srP07591P3KH27BZAkR3KU1 aSbQq3VY6YOFx4wwnoN8Xinz5Lhxhc0y7FdTDqDawRyQbtVIJ3BONuw7u4SCUMZG aIqHtu8lhDDi94NjRaiBa1HDQ34fwVyWItrCxRh+915aDKdf7Ddqgo468kidItBy 5ble8jBLqYp3W4oAYu29CA==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=bugy+3Si c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=l697ptgUJYAA:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=HCgHwLzU_RojidqA2I4A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:39364] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id BC/31-56402-01DA54E5; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:09:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24133.44304.52029.432558@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:09:52 -0500 From: Robert Huff To: tech-lists Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) In-Reply-To: <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JSKY61X9z4TlJ X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=QUAK/LZa; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.48)[ip: (-9.30), ipnet: 69.168.97.0/24(1.07), asn: 36271(0.89), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[78.97.168.69.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:09:55 -0000 tech-lists writes: > >It's usually not a good idea to have swap on a SSD. > > Why is this? The conventional wisdon: Swap can involve lots of reads and lots of writes. SSDs wear out quickly under heavy write load. This "wisdom" may no longer match reality. (I have an SSD in my main workstation; it holds "/" and "/var", both of which get minimal traffic.) Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 20:15:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2694623364C for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:15:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic309-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic309-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JSRh2Fm7z4VJ4 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:15:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: u28HUSoVM1n36BvVEh2L6mKEcErjMzdEge6yjYCSVaZXpzNtXLJv.ElnmiRjcAX By0D3vNU0uMB8n4.VI_ohP2jUsDPpO9amZ3_JHxRlZ0bw0n6DhSRq.AtuZxbOvjGQd6S4m5.6w11 2vYxMEygluT0Oa5EZSzXlWkegtyN7H4hX9PX9J.6a2XVkq.6f2rNFgT1txYoZp1TKyhXG5EH.881 LvqWPEMoovR_LrO3xjNXzgWI96GbdJkXjyCk36olxmWFF.oTbcv8skOuu6VL8G8z5v3XYA5j2X.3 ioZkOzeyn99oichgUd6zV5jaOlAeScs7GctA_y4h5UfhebcPxw4CHHO6Njh5SOS6Lm2NEbG47X1c dGIq.SVw3MBB7B2F9p4kKePHdDgpQEHp0h0JG9GsagnxWGX6AJndD7w3.hOAxHS_HjjE9M.8guhA Y6nDaLf28.8FqxhxHpGh72EYvsDn4IBLGB_gadf1R6gIqIkFNRxToWey1nTB6knvOgl8PJQE1H2y pZb.Of.Dq1lcyxt5VGZEwMbFR.QHU3TrthZ3LFVf3Gq50iYNRi6U140S4g8jm4bdJbdVV.99BS34 OOi1KcikufijVqOBc5noRaGngU1qyAHCsrGiTNmjdGWUbRjkorKL8n9epDKq7uoz_rcgdkhhsjUu aJki5lNmMc4cCyYILcXFXe6ewatBwbLRZC3UZYCZ0R0qaojznz3vfZw5WseJruBzPO1oDxDqk9Ac VCjZ7Go2dEhrBB71Nmn5sTvzTqDCYz8zBaabCq_PxesaxiL.s4BlYXb5obKHmwv93y4ZPU7BVGZx mI9HEWsqoGytoWop3otCgdm3CHlzFIIKN7PfcHV5MNQ0iph71L78aLwYq19kglXdGYFYtNpg6q9u dCNdH_kPTNSKD2IAzldUMX0Ccc.U7mVLBNpU4iQvQMXfCBonypwz.CIwEkPb1TX.XjEnYI8LgV7g XiQ0a329nK0JeNQLLaxiGqmVSnbbCpe__1QAUNDPrJOriLF0SMeWn3JO72RN82r5qDopgBQsIkwT Df5FlJQrWNu6cx5b7AfUDjC78HUni2tRFpDqGslnToSOwYCzEUNMQ5O33zOF2CRx6tZgZLLCFTpn Mwcs8sNeb_rB6N6fnuyvMpo0sOVKbChxDQqVXKywB.M7Rt_BeYVbE.IGRoegkp54ECMJeeGhlXaF Pi656G8IciWmmusxRvWyQeuag6cQS07ygL1loTy2zZGGZYOoSaDxfwGBbLcPIYrZh_XSR5aKClzU Oi5CqYPv4BzxKmtSqmwvGRUSwKX3f.XIgcQQh.DpURs5loMpejgsRQ30hHFMlyoZ2bkoH9dicPsB AN3JOJanaacCu9WxGWej6o.IHSOOapUZLEA6AbAlUp_3hg4yeVtyq3D6dTU8G.M6dWFBEQlaVdYE ZzEpgh.P9R9Sw2nZ55V9G4I0aL6tfKKubcDo- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:15:11 +0000 Received: by smtp426.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 37fb3f975bb38fcde53fcec78c0b794a; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:15:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f52.google.com with SMTP id dw13so2852157pjb.4 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 12:15:07 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXu5go7H3/+0d6JDa0MzxB/3lOruSJ4XcuRf+87rfpiJPY3Xjee XXEy46DZOjb3oZrzxhUkwxJR02eKjUd9Tvvoq3U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx5XXeYd2Qus69qimY7sZOtHo/5nfNnKCEZapicW4hDySfO7otV2BsciSJsngnkXLu84EkZ0rOfG7hQXEgf9OM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8bc9:: with SMTP id r9mr29381535plo.48.1581624906857; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 12:15:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <24133.44304.52029.432558@jerusalem.litteratus.org> In-Reply-To: <24133.44304.52029.432558@jerusalem.litteratus.org> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:14:50 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) To: Robert Huff Cc: tech-lists , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JSRh2Fm7z4VJ4 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.41 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.855,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[roberthuff@rcn.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.85)[-0.850,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[147.184.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.48), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:15:13 -0000 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 at 20:09, Robert Huff wrote: > > > tech-lists writes: > > > >It's usually not a good idea to have swap on a SSD. > > > > Why is this? > > The conventional wisdon: > Swap can involve lots of reads and lots of writes. > SSDs wear out quickly under heavy write load. > > This "wisdom" may no longer match reality. > (I have an SSD in my main workstation; it holds "/" and "/var", > both of which get minimal traffic.) I don't get the point of "fast drives". Applications load in memory. If you want a fast system, stick more RAM (and this is also a memo to myself). -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Feb 13 21:24:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D246235FB4 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 21:24:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JTzd2jkSz4bWw for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 21:24:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581629069; x=1584221069; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=5Ckgzd2Kc6e6dD/8Zbk9Fzc2oxXZsOmmp1T1QnFf6W8=; b=LRFA8ZVyL1o0v/2YKG137NO8O7TunwVP3Lp34KjLsSv89ri8ovTWfYyUeQUmwQXf0M6111Q4tsT3WAAjHV0Bgw7jIpnQfN7h1M7u+D9S4naJYcn4Bt4AOFU16aOysyHxHaBiylYwdzOHkcYT8mE487GcX1LRaYnR/YznnVUSzeI= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDIyNGNmNC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.13]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:24:21 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 13 Feb 2020 16:24:20 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2Ly7-0006CZ-Br; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 21:24:19 +0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 21:24:19 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Ottavio Caruso Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) Message-Id: <20200213212419.df7d90e9b81098df7c0d4c38@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <24133.44304.52029.432558@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JTzd2jkSz4bWw X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=LRFA8ZVy; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.88 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.987,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.30), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.60), asn: 7381(0.29), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yahoo.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 21:24:30 -0000 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:14:50 +0000 Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > I don't get the point of "fast drives". Applications load in memory. > If you want a fast system, stick more RAM (and this is also a memo to > myself). A small(ish) SSD (say 120GB) is the cheapest boot drive you can get these days (unless you go for second hand drives) and plenty big enough if your bulk storage is coming from a NAS (mine is full of second hand SAS drives) viz: $ df -H / Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity Mounted on tank/ROOT/default 111G 14G 97G 13% / There's a swap partition on it (2GB) that sees very little activity, with that much spare space and low write rate the wear levelling should keep it going for decades. I'd have used a smaller one, but they were not significantly cheaper, lacked TRIM and were much slower - by now smaller ones are probably also hard to find. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 01:10:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE5023BE85 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 01:10:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Jb012Hz4z3MYl for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 01:10:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 18:10:07 -0700 References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jb012Hz4z3MYl X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.32 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.928,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.92)[-0.921,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.07)[ip: (-0.25), ipnet: 65.112.0.0/12(-0.00), asn: 209(-0.03), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[42.55.121.65.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 01:10:10 -0000 On 13 Feb 2020, at 07:34, tech-lists wrote: > On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 06:03:26PM +0000, Ottavio Caruso via = freebsd-questions wrote: >>=20 >> It's usually not a good idea to have swap on a SSD. >=20 > Why is this?=20 > For clarity, I mean a proper SSD not sdcard Swap is written a lot and SSDs can fail faster if they are constantly = being written to. It=E2=80=99s not really that much of an issue with a modern SSD, but if = you have a server that is really writing a lot to swap. Get more RAM and = put swap on a rust drive. --=20 "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" "I think so, Brain, but practicing docking procedures with a goat at zero G's=E2=80=94it's never been done!=E2=80=9D From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 03:30:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834F623EC0A for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:30:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic301-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic301-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Jf5w1JY9z407C for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:30:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: ztVNqssVM1lQMXHNQSgES4eMXMaBm3nOGwvWSpdxYG7Z_faTNkQ.Z3va.w8oNDP Mvu0zCB4wBB3NkxoVeAsFTKRfERcgITxi24nnwG3LjfwVX2RWDIVOxkSmB2ihdGjVJ46VVQUrUch 8jFhC9Yrhrwbqj43A2EXuApI7syMBaW7vLlA_OcLLO3RkRcf3u7.6jRYnbenG6PzYIM5InwwCzdu g1dvXBRMaDTv5r_MAsAxYHJQOBJjPh91snu6eUKOtiUhFaa4csvssRqbXSwGh.A6fqfHeQWhHdXq W.DEEZkZyyvv1fPMWO3igH0oO3f2xqdVW7gI8kSKNkn7bh2nZc2FHgNFRv3.QnwxglekLZdU_Usa q621fGjCLAJGSh_AWeOC9MFDZAmc_XhVgjI5ehbdpuPUNs0hTobg1HmE..TexICxkq8izU1vMnC_ mhJBYrzLO.CSRRzlpbZtefv9UpfBx9fbcjXeHc5yn45huG7.6LzaDni6_pYffmYaYtJWN1YoQ6bJ bLsfScAd8g3BcHfiQXiWo0BTO8SnQPF4Z2_Q4IlIxqa.hf8H3eDK2laSCWbLNwt_4OyRvtQZPt9g ZWqOJLb3dsOynn5lmQgdPZzjV_m6zXQiGvWlxWRRJENAyMq9sJG6yi9JtIEKgGDu.J3p3sxKvriW zcxULfEmCpb0oKT27o0qBD1X1f.fRDGGPgSgiu7uCZ.W4WUcdid_kznIx.9l9UeIGVLz_6CHXrYj BhFNQUjLlvO7Cv.q48wYRPnE8Yh9da2x8uNi6Trh5iMoNxA3EjBS_sA1AYXsI8MhYFbQqbch_IZc iJ6usNWMHkWdqNA_mgswHR6pwFntiyOLyMJAz5Td7jp2fN1Ddqg2qTFhhQwvQcJnL2.Tqaby2dc4 9D51iDjrSHbP2UXJpjQjbYVDwwuWBtmYxd38YYnjrySBSFsVPWFuHQXl3efwh2EsARvxV18UGcOf 2S.UMlR9g1.6FZELGcmYhWaU0eCGzZPeOEKbKuf25FxVmfBRSOqFDniWRIY59o3Zj0xEZu4Pn3kG fpeqYZBfbWwaSPNjgiFW7hjmicHq1Ug9avrSD3C5vjXiZDLlLCnmm6_xHCgCHXsCW7OG4HMYjRer olWbIpb4_4iBc0gQU8TTgXNss4vlxxU2AwadOHnfxd5r4Uu6V1PWGzDJX7cFyfSqpt9wCBGZcICS C1UbbeJLuCPVmTMA5owiUkgnZ2ePj.POJSMqdTnUTmUJ2mTtBaenn1T81V6Ru7oEo9aTNyGZUv5O pFgLXouchcxgbLDlzxwu0XsoaqmtUA9.16TNP13I6f.0kODL1hjf_6CaeIv7oG0UebZZVPzpU0L4 Af.z0I35dQFVrZv.JGJHXI9EPUHrHxXkZ_UCqpACjdS48At2JP8QpcrcD.IS9WmVvnONIUEvMnbM b.Wl7dw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:30:25 +0000 Received: by smtp428.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 44565e34c099bae33bfe3e60905dac2a; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:30:24 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 04:30:24 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) Message-ID: <20200214043024.0db2aab0@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jf5w1JY9z407C X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.01)[-0.009,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.72)[-0.716,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[97.176.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.09), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.17), asn: 34010(1.71), country: GB(-0.08)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[97.176.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:30:29 -0000 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 18:10:07 -0700, @lbutlr wrote: >Swap is written a lot and SSDs can fail faster if they are constantly >being written to. Hi, SSDs are made for read and write access. Treating SSDs with kid gloves is grotesque. Yes, using SSDs does wear out SSDs. However, using HDDs does wear out HDDs and using door locks, does wear out door locks. The internal drives of my PC are SSDs only. The oldest drive is > 3 years old. This might not be very old, but it's a small sized drive and it still works. Small sized drives wear out faster, than drives with a large storage capacity. I'm using five elCheapo Toshiba OCZ Solid State Drives insider of my PC and never experienced an issue. My heavy used iPad 2 is already 8 years old. Around a year I replaced it by an iPad Pro for "heavy" audio productions. However, it still works without failure. What ever the thingy in the iPad 2 is named, "SSD" or not, it suffers from the same write cycle "issue", which actually is no issue at all. In my experiences modern heavy used HDDs at best do last for around 7 years, if parking and releasing heads to often is avoided. Regularly but seldom used backup HDDs probably last way longer, let alone old MiB sized HDDs. While some modern drives do last for 7 or more years, a lot of HDDs fail sooner. It's not that seldom, that a HDD already fails after 2 years, even when the heads very seldom were parked and released. I don't see any reason for treating a SSD different than a HDD, at least not when using it on a daily basis. I don't know if SSDs are reliable when regularly, but seldom used as a backup drive. Regards, Ralf From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 04:08:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71FE23F7DA for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 04:08:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Jfy80KsKz41hk for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 04:08:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:08:31 -0800 Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <091dd3af-7b99-267f-7d04-541b6d651926@holgerdanske.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:08:27 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jfy80KsKz41hk X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.75 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.66)[ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.65), asn: 6939(-3.58), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 04:08:48 -0000 On 2020-02-13 07:02, tech-lists wrote: > Hi, > > [1] > When a new (12.x) amd64 system is installed, the partition defaults to > MBR. I > normally use this as it's the default. I don't run mixed-OS systems; > they are > all freebsd. But I understand that GPT is newer or "better"? > > If GPT is "better" then why is it not the default? > > My use case is always ufs for the OS and zfs for data. Would it be > "better" to > use GPT when installing a system? I put my operating system installations on single, small 2.5" SATA SSD's and I put 2.5" SATA trayless disk bays in my computers. This both facilitates imaging and allows me to mix and match as required. For FreeBSD, I use ZFS throughout. Not all of my computers support booting from GPT, so I use MBR for system drives. The default FreeBSD installer wants to use the entire disk, so I hacked the memstick installer and/or choose the following in the installer: - 1 MiB alignment for everything - 14 GiB slice - 2 GiB boot partition, copies=2 - 2 GiB swap partition, mirrored - 10 GiB root partition, copies=2 The most obvious downside is that MBR does not support labels. So, the FreeBSD boot system uses device node names. This means I have to ensure that the system drive is always ada0 -- during install, whenever I move the drive to another machine, and whenever I add or remove drives or controllers. If the drive comes up as the wrong device node, I move SATA cables around. > [2] > The bsdinstaller defaults to 4GB swap. Isn't this insufficient on a 32GB > system? Doesn't swap need to be 2x RAM on a fast disk? > > The next install I do I'm thinking of making 2x 32GB swap partitions. These > being on the same SSD as the base OS. Would you consider this to be > suboptimal, and if so, why? In the past, I tried running systems without swap. They crashed. My current preference is to have plenty of RAM and a nominal swap partition. One possibility might be to install with a small swap partition now and put a large dummy partition at the end in case you need more swap later. Then again, if your workload does require a lot of swap, you could add a dedicated swap device and disable the swap partition on the system drive. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 06:25:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7B1241D55 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:25:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bennett@sdf.org) Received: from mx.sdf.org (mx.sdf.org [205.166.94.20]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx.sdf.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Jk044Rh3z47gM for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:25:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bennett@sdf.org) Received: from sdf.org (IDENT:bennett@miku.sdf.org [205.166.94.6]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 01E6Pcxl017559 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:25:38 GMT Received: (from bennett@localhost) by sdf.org (8.15.2/8.12.8/Submit) id 01E6Pcej002541; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 00:25:38 -0600 (CST) From: Scott Bennett Message-Id: <202002140625.01E6Pcej002541@sdf.org> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 00:25:38 -0600 To: johnl@iecc.com Subject: Re: terminology and history (was Re: Re updating BIOS) Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200212170420.2B9961450DF8@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20200212170420.2B9961450DF8@ary.qy> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.5 6/20/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jk044Rh3z47gM X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bennett@sdf.org has no SPF policy when checking 205.166.94.20) smtp.mailfrom=bennett@sdf.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.17 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.84)[-0.837,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.29)[ip: (-0.92), ipnet: 205.166.94.0/24(-0.46), asn: 14361(-0.03), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sdf.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.937,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[20.94.166.205.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14361, ipnet:205.166.94.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:25:41 -0000 "John Levine" wrote: > In article <202002120724.01C7OcSW005991@sdf.org> you write: > >that later virtual memory systems had. Although offered by Cambridge University, > >rather than IBM, CP-67/CMS provided virtual machine support. > > Uh, no, it was the IBM Cambridge Scientific Center in Cambridge MA. Thank you very much for that correction. My memory there was probably fuzzed because the information was of a much lower priority to my 18-year-old mind at the time than other aspects of the system. ;-) > It was in the same building where Project MAC was. CP was a > skunkworks project, originally on a modified 360/40, then on a /67. > It was quite embarassing that CP/67 was so much faster and more > reliable than the flagship TSS. I used both; TSS would have been > great if if worked, but it didn't. It was also not surprising, since By the time we got to play with it, TSS certainly did work. My impression of it was deflated by its slowness and its operational problems. We attributed the slowness to a combination of real memory limitations and speeds of 2301 drums, the latter being required devices for TSS as primary paging areas. CP-67 could get by with disk drives. However, TSS was a big system in terms of capabilities and in terms of code, which greatly exceeded those of any virtual machine setup, as should be expected from the definitions of "operating system" and "virtual machine facility". CMS was a single-user operating system, fully capable of running on bare metal (though it was a big waste of hardware to do that:-). > CP was written by a small skilled staff while TSS had hordes of > programmers trying to implement undebugged specs. The scopes of the problems to be solved were of different orders of magnitude. As already noted, one was an OS, and the other was a VM system. > > >> [MS/PC/DR/Free]DOS was a lot more like a mainframe batch operating > > > > No, that was my point. They were all like monitor systems (e.g., IBM > >1620/1710 Monitor I). They did almost nothing for the user or program except > >for loading an executable program from a disk drive and accepting a return of > >control when the application program ended, ... > > They also provided a file system, which was pretty important. I'd say they > didn't provide quite as much as DOS/TOS but it was more than a batch monitor. > IIRC(*), the System/7 had a primitive file system, though it did not have a monitor. It depended upon a connected System/360 or /370 to make it load a program from the disk drive. IOW, a file system need not be part of either a monitor or an OS. * This was in the early 1970s. I disliked the System/7 I was assigned to work with--imagine a system with no compare instruction, only subtract--and have made no effort to maintain these memories. My memory of details could well be mistaken. Scott Bennett, Comm. ASMELG, CFIAG ********************************************************************** * Internet: bennett at sdf.org *xor* bennett at freeshell.org * *--------------------------------------------------------------------* * "A well regulated and disciplined militia, is at all times a good * * objection to the introduction of that bane of all free governments * * -- a standing army." * * -- Gov. John Hancock, New York Journal, 28 January 1790 * ********************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 08:25:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8012243DDA for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:25:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic316-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic316-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.187.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Jmdw4KPxz4Dr9 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:25:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: nQhN6TAVM1nG51XlCYODfHpY23Y.zwYxDDeCHIMk9PfIVT2zuzHEsP1UzA6HQxP TcL8wE55S92NlrNlO9w7ZqLcay6aaTUtQDRgckF1lmfsk.kyCBbgJ1WqaUZwfXczawqdwHr0iDi. _O1Ttz_aNRcvj5pb4CG76wxNfD3zSILVS84LKI.IkTj0Z07j0Dfd5B0Bo5MbuRsQA4qZSywz9IjK Kzf4i6CBiaYPDQSiiixTTGq2R0H3PZkQZ2eXhNcI329oEM84ezc2.c0saTvxQCHU0gQjOOtLOBOp b9Duxt4gwMz_qsalOcO8aWWfHoESl6bF2A6IhcujJSouOmTc8vLqPYgXN1cvROaIgLz8oCPGefPV OYnUHAo6qiepiG80TQmyc_uKvttNmt1DLIXMWTPDHCYQOYc7sWF5LMuVYOdfa5pxIQ63ydt7U1Mk Xmy98SMq5saAhm4nAh2qMYxssACrg0XLGZKSRbfnI5UihBWvfyezPKveUau_GhtuRMbYAmV64UXE 47YRwU5kvO5_aNSC2FzrQD3pvYsj_sqolTP8md6Eabh5eaADR75vbgN.mkfQKiaJLlucgrHvM_Nb Oh_kDcaM1kSRwesY9kfysllTpLN71IDLt6wBfNYAVfMblOmG__Ktd5JJ2gC.dgmnGIUUs55riaeo SQZy4esbfrqta15ACiJVO9ymmp1UY1E565B4AoBDH9utxODiBR1ltldMUNso5RHDAiMHkZYwQrcD GEkPAkXPexGpHuILuq9iie2XzNACHbCQB21fohRpyIQ_KbFyctns8qxA5bz7_gy9aiwAHM6tU0ng _XnProVG8oXLJ8kBEyjY9N8KKnXwWVT_4UIb3sGGAuqb2yc_R4z61baM552Dnf.gwllVjDIBDjb2 KmRpprP_xuLoZCacYtX2d4B8Q9T55aNkMI7xBX5JTzxFQY1OKtYBZO_xGBf_fjnhQe_p7w4G5mZI _BgDvCzYkLCBBZXUzI7OzMJfW_SEJaIU1qdEq2MCFVBo646qgGowHkH4XMPQgtVqJypUosviWIqP Xz5TBEVNwHOZGg5n1vgskrNu0hni7JFNcMNeD0b5E8Ddp23cV2IVyd9EMKvQsn.uhDXMPdVoIbIA v8xDJsGGyFIhOmzTg9r4D5MZOIwi5bLpBTzBG5rix596u81y9lb3P1AHbkBwHFeEC_V26.q6IRbk Z_DaQIV.BJMxbQyeTAqDTKerL0.FSnDMt2M3L.SnmQZAApE0vfqhsvbTHOss43xkEErfPOxmEUpn sF1Bqia04zMu6n93bZNPTNoZvw52IQ_Lv57EjxGm5isakG5qVbZFwNB2RNr32Y0p.cszBt2joaLG gPlwUHY936wMNjjqjRjgdeodFm8IBlVIqab7yIZJVjMIPRRGEv7jXCY53VKTiiFEwpt6SkizKkD1 RvLiHKoJIOJwdMo.iaeNfNkW_HmD2nMqpGwazqSxB Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:25:06 +0000 Received: by smtp432.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 828ff66d1608fa1e969fe3dec98a55ec; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:25:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f181.google.com with SMTP id g6so3462969plt.2 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 00:25:03 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUFKsoaUA7ZAqEhMTS6qg54QE7fDrWdIby5xTjaAiCMZvmzElFZ rhfYE+SHYCiDLdHWM63BmCtp1tY104/pUHmce/I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw1oqQo/bad2YsGG6cw/79xys40RuoKSxJRlYGgV/kICLbFuJsQh7Z4gGBn6hQcxiHYWDgtW7NC5pb4uTQc7mo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1256:: with SMTP id gx22mr2196199pjb.94.1581668702818; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 00:25:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200211155009.GA9715@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213143411.GA14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200214043024.0db2aab0@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200214043024.0db2aab0@archlinux> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:24:46 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: questions about swap (partition and file) To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jmdw4KPxz4Dr9 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.44 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_NEUTRAL(0.00)[148.187.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.13]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.900,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.84)[-0.837,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[148.187.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.29), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:25:09 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 03:30, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 18:10:07 -0700, @lbutlr wrote: > >Swap is written a lot and SSDs can fail faster if they are constantly > >being written to. > > Hi, > > SSDs are made for read and write access. Treating SSDs with kid gloves > is grotesque. Yes, using SSDs does wear out SSDs. However, using HDDs > does wear out HDDs and using door locks, does wear out door locks. > IMHO, having SSDs and little RAM is useless. One can have the best of both worlds by putting the base system on a SSD and then mount some directories on tmpfs. ("sudo find / -type d -name cache" is a good start) -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 11:48:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1141423022E for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:48:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Js8x19rFz4RqN for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:48:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tech-lists@zyxst.net) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED785BC for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:48:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); 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Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:48:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:48:17 +0000 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting Message-ID: <20200214114817.GA39057@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213155256.GD14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213162357.71aaf1dbd0f2ccb0743b0cd7@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200213162357.71aaf1dbd0f2ccb0743b0cd7@sohara.org> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Js8x19rFz4RqN X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm1 header.b=mYTBQxXZ; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=Gj7oNQO2; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 64.147.123.24 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.20 / 15.00]; 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charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, thanks for the assistance. I've decided on re-doing the install with GPT and 1* 32GB swap, the rest being UFS. The SSD is 250GB so theres plenty of spac= e. I think the swap on SSD issue is one that looks plausible in theory but doesn't matter in practice. The original SSD (2014) was set up like this; I only replaced it because it had indicated 18% left. It outlasted some of the HDs that were installed at the same time. thanks, --=20 J. --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl5GiRMACgkQs8o7QhFz NAVuGRAAiYEvTEmuxyocRFWZuy/mEVMnzGheYkck63MtbuW7coXmvJ7Rw5+WrU5Z KSN7EAJXff40Pkt0aNsGxUIJbxuxD1XDM1TvpnK9hhgUgs7OqkYfqV3eJ1yYNuhU cZkk39Qg4oFqXhBcEH58ZsGwi3/4kAlkr16Hdg6ma8YdCW300NMnmJ2aaQgQPXTW aQ82SXFMF9gDjt2vlkWp7CcmA4I/nWeIwFusIN9JXZe7WK1+zabO2naxDuP3zWe+ OsfuOUrZRBiA0eFBN90icOxb5UcLLYWgzEmrT5ozGbJ9R1AJ8EaDRCOfaRQxq6xQ WTWscDPpDi4EHF/GxFIdq7Zrs4Envsp0vM6sCI6uxJIphRLDVCf1U/mXeRW77rhw KHhC9Z8v5DUsW05spXEXf8eekadv8B4Y8a4HdaTSWeBRlZY3RgfuNnEdZtxZAe89 S/5jB+tMMcTaxSpCZX8ohXhxHd25BJnT4axm6p6OYSqEq7BpSg4jaoxImzCM3R7T 9ygp4PTQkM9ij4niFMstMtBsStMB4rN8NDKcsfiHDWU0hWatY6jDFH+f1NMxBzfQ PSd0ZEoeA/SbF37WyNHtqhcDq80hIQYkMN5OhL1Uj6DRZ+5F/f+usI5te+H2nV63 zwLZgxiv/rKCGuDqO9n3J+DMxmrehN6JZCXzUHMQRYEJDvAWQI4= =B+r2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 12:10:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5468E232042 for ; 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Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:10:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:10:03 +0000 From: tech-lists To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting Message-ID: <20200214121003.GB39057@bastion.zyxst.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213155256.GD14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <1090523a-377c-9412-5db1-38e825e35956@mm.st> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Pd0ReVV5GZGQvF3a" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1090523a-377c-9412-5db1-38e825e35956@mm.st> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jsf23ZpPz4TqY X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=zyxst.net header.s=fm1 header.b=aMyU9KKP; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=Ed2CBOHR; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tech-lists@zyxst.net designates 64.147.123.24 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tech-lists@zyxst.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[zyxst.net:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.123.24:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[zyxst.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[zyxst.net:+,messagingengine.com:+]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; IP_SCORE(-3.50)[ip: (-9.82), ipnet: 64.147.123.0/24(-4.92), asn: 11403(-2.68), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[24.123.147.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:10:35 -0000 --Pd0ReVV5GZGQvF3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 07:06:54PM +0300, yp@mm.st wrote: >Now this is something I wanted to ask as well, as I didn't find=20 >anything really describing what needs to be done for large (not really=20 >so this days, 32 and higher) RAM systems -- I have a system with 64GB=20 >RAM and adding a 64GB swap partition makes system unhappy (I don't=20 >remember the exact message). With minidumps and all, what size it=20 >should be so that dump is guaranteed to be saved? A while ago I tried this (one big swap partition) and experienced the same. This is why I went with several swap partitions. I think the maximum swap a= s a partition is 32GB and I'm guessing the reason it's like that is down to some variable buried in the code. --=20 J. --Pd0ReVV5GZGQvF3a Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEE8n3tWhxW11Ccvv9/s8o7QhFzNAUFAl5Gji0ACgkQs8o7QhFz NAXjcA/8CT6MdBHwuZX+lLQq7nzOXcBp+5hSCgMg32+O0nLbowG8ytHZzYY/3v+7 EQNfyRv9XNn3sVWGtVagJv8LpM9lEXRuScUymWMu297sBQ4ON1o8h//RgHyLU6DO TnyIvCQr7iH9Hk33idBO5VxavZWa6aXJGDHoEuAEaSh5wrEMFr6Vt8uWnq+U6WCH ilsnJ0TVZ7hGaLj9WwxF4T/WDUtrLjf61SnhPSU8anjisXjFxn3I67FqSBMN7sbQ QY0DjB6dG/VqJfjAtLXAMwhh6t2Bi5CvjRQ/DpF7JX3SC+TvAJ0fTy6rgpSW7Ivo tgy0FRBZO+LBMiK9AgPaJId3CBEDY1Uy0OE35xsc8XDDv+PhN8S9DQouv7poS1Jw MrcgPF7QFTmcr860cRgCeMk+JJlgP/3RUjO0pVZzMhdU6C3Qe52XIpb+wrebqNg2 68kXGG/jw3Q7/fQm7z7uYjhT/pke8g3HwsEsgnS5nPu0eYKaRNKeUVlF1ggT4AHx dmF9m3W4LG9qPFjBAjntCFKo3li/DE0k0L2zen3aAh3vmRmDr5jF2uxDIUwLzuyz a45yMlkp17oZ6wDP+UWtXCYvcdeWqBZzScrto+xbC2YeTXsW1UKuonFE7jE0jfqv unOQn938XBoNhSxLD3ECFv9dmkyYtSKD8Ybzj32W/R6ygg+GkN4= =lgTV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Pd0ReVV5GZGQvF3a-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 12:16:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443E423240A for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:16:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Jsmr1bbDz4VFL for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:16:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To; bh=ZwaoY5D7aKfM4RC8HPJmxcVvyCcRew20Jrbis1IrcJI=; b=dLBaRRVGdkJXl/QQM6QW56ISmB RrBU0DO1C56JNsTgW7UlC/K8q4cHV1riQQqCeo/V6tTX0P5in/VWCbqz2EIVJKJCMMqIC1d63eeu1 A9J55YNSIg2T83lnfRRXJwZrPRKF8hRFOYFpF3wED3/wGvgoQvtzMA7l7x8mpSHbLAs8=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2ZtM-000L1Q-AS for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:16:20 +0700 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:16:20 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM" Content-Disposition: inline X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jsmr1bbDz4VFL X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=dLBaRRVG; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.33)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.75), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:16:29 -0000 --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Colleagues, Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux has ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS implementation. What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer FreeBSD for new installations? --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeRo+UAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0ZLgIAK9n78DOebi1wy9wKO6dMa2z DMt9aIGGRQ6YicmNtuTCymPg/ykdR/eqBJqOibI9JeZILMT29mv+1TUqmhFlzGyH jV5oahVVHW+AqJDEaUabenGf03Uay0I6Ua92qgobXBDVD1UiRQcxNKRBqy7TqnUa BgFk4r0vglGwuCWHnqqe80XfGXopvR07URCij/g/LvTAnFy41bUojMPeWKC6HRMm 57Fi8wDAgT/Qdx7LJijr7oA1KSw6PW891jY1XdwlOMh4RTGvMOKne3Kmh7OefE+N INeiMEo7ZYV8Hth+Cfm4Ei2JitFmOAq/OSBirfwRV/DGXW+EuDDDV/3vYCprfds= =9Vzt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 12:25:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33BFB232B0D for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:25:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at50-3.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at50-3.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JszC4bjZz4W5N for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:25:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at50.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1j2Zwl-0008Mb-0l for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:19:51 +0100 Received: from t61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id 2cKq2201z4YLlkt0BcKqdj; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:19:51 +0100 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=3kf3G9kSByOthAiGI8cA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:20:53 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202002141320.53562.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JszC4bjZz4W5N X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.138 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.98)[0.984,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 62.179.0.0/17(1.33), asn: 6830(3.71), country: AT(-0.10)]; FORGED_MUA_KMAIL_MSGID(3.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[138.121.179.62.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:25:28 -0000 Anno domini 2020 Fri, 14 Feb 19:16:20 +0700 Victor Sudakov scripsit: > Dear Colleagues, > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? > > Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux has > ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS > implementation. > > What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer > FreeBSD for new installations? > For me: root on ZFS. And no systemd. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 12:32:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A59232E9E for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:32:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markand@malikania.fr) Received: from smtp.smtpout.orange.fr (smtp04.smtpout.orange.fr [80.12.242.126]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Bizanga Labs SMTP Client Certificate", Issuer "Bizanga Labs CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Jt7457DYz4WXY for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:32:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markand@malikania.fr) Received: from postfix.malikania.fr ([5.135.187.121]) by mwinf5d27 with ME id 2cYE2200D2dbEiD03cYEJ1; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:32:14 +0100 X-ME-Helo: postfix.malikania.fr X-ME-Auth: ZGVtZWxpZXIuZGF2aWRAb3JhbmdlLmZy X-ME-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:32:14 +0100 X-ME-IP: 5.135.187.121 Received: from [167.3.108.158] (unknown [77.159.242.250]) by postfix.malikania.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8219E1751E for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:32:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> From: David Demelier Message-ID: <89a55b95-f8cb-caef-44ef-7c8f6a4f36b2@malikania.fr> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:32:14 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jt7457DYz4WXY X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of markand@malikania.fr has no SPF policy when checking 80.12.242.126) smtp.mailfrom=markand@malikania.fr X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.93 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.88)[0.883,0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.93)[0.932,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[126.242.12.80.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[malikania.fr]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3215, ipnet:80.12.240.0/20, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(1.22)[ip: (2.82), ipnet: 80.12.240.0/20(1.59), asn: 3215(1.68), country: FR(0.00)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[126.242.12.80.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:32:18 -0000 Le 14/02/2020 à 13:16, Victor Sudakov a écrit : > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? In short: - Jails ; - ZFS ; - Simplicity (not always the case though). Type mount on a fresh FreeBSD and a fresh Linux and admire that. Also applies to initial processes ; - Documentation (not the best though, OpenBSD has the best doc out there) but all BSD have the most well documented stuff ; - pf ; - poudriere ; - src.conf, make.conf and easy world rebuild ; - LLVM instead of GCC. But, not to denigrate Linux, also places where Linux kicks FreeBSD: - ACPI ; - ACPI ; - ACPI ; - Laptop support ; - ACPI ; - Modern features (or modern... I mean even the touchpad does not work out of the box usually): Wayland is still buggy ; - Speed ; - And, ACPI. > Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux has > ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS > implementation. Linux has unofficial ZFS support, it's not in the kernel and it's a real mess. HTH, -- David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 12:54:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC44233C9B for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:54:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JtcJ6KTWz4Y5F for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:54:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1581684847; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=beh2WpRxu1Oo4tBVM57VRxpAH+Q=; b=Fqfo3kjylwbysLXg8v3qCK7Fj1Gn3FBuLrvCfvwKwm7/W0orNuInN7rSPKOKeCYu Gvf3Ic8EyQ+1nblxbRdE2LLJssBXwaq6Fs2FEVtYfSKu71IRqAEPihzyWI0x+3Fp A+ylArAGezet6crHYuH9KWPcIiNnoylXjTiiGNs3VpCDtpSX0BNLv8WXq2/gk+sp Ahgka5GzDAHdZ/zZisOQa3lKrueiBwdxqSQLipKpnn+xBqmdpeR/eiXS4c35O7Pz 0GrQ4IE3dgq0/Xk7mQzbucjRkttIWz/wgRz01yzLjhq4YxpQWJk8wPnlwDdlw4Qp wcXOz6GUW8KNEHv8Pq3zcg==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=JbTCUnCV c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=l697ptgUJYAA:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=v5q66hbE5jtxtzd_Q6MA:9 a=_ktoMapBwxiRMH5N:21 a=kXVeEEUQb59sWiTD:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Kvc0hPm1paQA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:54523] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 16/3B-44953-F68964E5; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:54:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24134.39022.519866.759080@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:54:06 -0500 From: Robert Huff To: tech-lists Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting In-Reply-To: <20200214121003.GB39057@bastion.zyxst.net> References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213155256.GD14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <1090523a-377c-9412-5db1-38e825e35956@mm.st> <20200214121003.GB39057@bastion.zyxst.net> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JtcJ6KTWz4Y5F X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=Fqfo3kjy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.48)[ip: (-9.30), ipnet: 69.168.97.0/24(1.06), asn: 36271(0.89), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[78.97.168.69.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:54:09 -0000 tech-lists writes: > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 07:06:54PM +0300, yp@mm.st wrote: > >Now this is something I wanted to ask as well, as I didn't find > >anything really describing what needs to be done for large (not really > >so this days, 32 and higher) RAM systems -- I have a system with 64GB > >RAM and adding a 64GB swap partition makes system unhappy (I don't > >remember the exact message). With minidumps and all, what size it > >should be so that dump is guaranteed to be saved? > > A while ago I tried this (one big swap partition) and experienced the same. > This is why I went with several swap partitions. I think the maximum swap as a > partition is 32GB and I'm guessing the reason it's like that is down to > some variable buried in the code. _If_ that's true, then it's a bug and needs to be fixed. The folks posting here may not need it ... but I find it hard to imagine various organizations that use FreeBSD (or would like to) on hardcore server hardware wouldn't find that a substantial liability. While this may be more suited to hackers@: can anyone here confirm there is an encoded limit on swap space? Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 13:43:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CC7235239 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:43:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic316-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic316-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.187.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JvjN6wfgz4cYL for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:43:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: xSGqM9EVM1mUAqmV1L6QLmniz8ArqRKtZTM8uPRVoIUecdk3FgHJdqwDM2TzKKk GYUzyOD4fuMj8Q9lz01AeFuNS0FXZR1Ah7PebrwUcWZ2YEY7fybj6g_3SRm4alMMqJbm3sbYC8bP QPrt6P.Xf.Sq9lRN9yn29OsyjUeL4E6BuNbcWPTYvtXdqx7k2.4CroomMbmMsJm2_fljJG69xp5K AW7MIT_C.OYSCxjEHOAr6UXMV3I7qPRhnweY2bBN0CaOr1eRDYzWItj7RltdkXNSpa.9kaTC37Yp o250Myq__tzYd6mWIHWR4cbjAdoA84Q0eOfX.v_4fBXYLbjVR22.U4hfiEqnvcLU1xssUy5_I9ox CG29qR7FIhn5bBLG9XPB1qY1bS11COv8rQkg1vlCsfYp8eZguvnGjU92tyhz83kwIFfrlOS8JKz7 ai.audwvAOyp_EgY4NKNXlrF3QTAmRqIqqYjTOCy8PxOzRFdas3ARJhmEVgtwZXWlAxD56Y0WXjs aaTdeOiksh4YpUXnuJGkSRO7lNx0roMVxvi9ltrnShbyFcfJqzh8OSojs1Lwv1lQ.sP1rI1ulvV8 L7pAqceXiYaIQT4Dp.wsuukz5Socv1OLYwAiaZ.ocp7wAnx7StJBR8PdwDargwcDuDJzvGrR.wmt iF.1PBH.weCHL_Elnb7CX5DG2TZQZWKIBKc.FOQqJ1IvtbSzlozr2Ja7Cv3PfggjAOXaVN5X2RMG Poogjjs0sudtVSfXLggVvErg1y1d458fe6OiYHCeNvsFUh9w0NSM1NicfDMtrCFDkK9gRn4inOAO E7okCyoPCsWB4bvkh37wAn6zOujBC2r5fVuNhDEYVpQESPos_tA3ZtTNDfrCgdtUiCcOFZv6KUZ0 PB4oUrrpBI1q99huudmKw73C.MG1F8Ra6AWM6G9e0iifTSrrECpPPNiNQDHF6b2ifbbkhLho93SJ 79MWPlwsZ6sF3kpwoUssl7KPNKTPWGsa1zL_DvQn7vqWW3SdloCyzs1QOvvtnX96fY._NI7Hbg4i PQjYlQEhImIK_wEZP7BjHRLMOUaIVS1fr4LpwUp2PGKHKGRU8ButZvgmpJUASVZOVyo3DeplALIO R4Mw2jAEBkmn902j4_BasXL._oPkzGHRmqhg1WjNF1stznJejbZMlA4v3y.D1Q.rzd6RopzvqAKv .Ge8sVdHD24HCqzIy9v7NoqVoHjGJW.EEuIOdlJa1k2XZ2HnCiCa7eHar2pLI1XRW8n11IV3.lOr rU9v_GE3rIK5yJVbSm92PSo0cA0Qc2H2cNaHXik_52Ex_IVcyP_10ilGt_Z9Nb1NUq2BwY4pTzfD .tNlZO2Fq9jcTqlVwc6llZm7Fxqa6.ZbUnGmg70b36_vgKC4xsg05m65kiIMZ722eAMaHzA0Ounc ZEY_6gpssd9wiiYy50K_xNxH7v5YUytUuDQ-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:43:34 +0000 Received: by smtp403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 01608b88527cb188a77d560a9d161d08; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:43:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f49.google.com with SMTP id r67so3912006pjb.0 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:43:32 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWiKEb2Af2WVj6NhXYLa5nfJimkBDZV8ewdFwj0AipNtlmgVE0l zdK0nMedWx3V16ZVQ+o2b94CZgNxAtNOfbuCQdY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyoLt8NoGgjjgDigXApfZt5ZjYJh5JC4Zm6LFHgxZTW7m0Su61ZVAURzM6GZ5CWJLxyFb3aczMQqo/BGUjZiJM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b386:: with SMTP id e6mr3650378pjr.106.1581687811942; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 05:43:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:43:15 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: Victor Sudakov Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JvjN6wfgz4cYL X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.58 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.944,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_NEUTRAL(0.00)[146.187.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.13]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.936,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[146.187.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.71), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:43:38 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 12:16, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? Sorry, but I find this sort of a chalk vs cheese kind of comparison. You start making comparisons, then you have to list all possible Linux distros, etc, you know the drill. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 14:11:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4E4235DE7 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:11:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48JwL53QLMz4dpk for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:11:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.139.140]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A3AE04E6D8; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:03:08 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:03:06 -0600 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> To: Victor Sudakov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JwL53QLMz4dpk X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[140.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[140.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.14)[ip: (0.40), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.20), asn: 160(0.16), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.996,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:11:58 -0000 > On Feb 14, 2020, at 6:16 AM, Victor Sudakov wrote: >=20 > Dear Colleagues, >=20 > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern = Linux? >=20 > Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux = has > ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS > implementation. >=20 > What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer > FreeBSD for new installations? >=20 I can not comment on technological advantages, I am just humble = sysadmin, but I can list a few reasons why I fled my servers from Linux = (CentOS aka =E2=80=9Cbinary replica of RedHat Enterprise=E2=80=9D) to = FreeBSD: 1. Updates requiring reboot are rare (twice a year at the most), whereas = Linux on average every 45 day has either kernel or glibc security update = =3D=3D reboot 2. Somebody mentioned: no systemd/firewalld madness. Add to that binary = logs, and config files wrapped in XML garbage instead of plain ASCII. 3. jails, that are slim and efficient and allow me compartmentalize = stuff better, like splitting server and make parts of that host run in = different jails. (and the list continues for me) Valeri > --=20 > Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN > 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 14:16:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6E1236143 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:16:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JwQp5RPLz4fCY for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:16:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=NyJROo7GZQ08eSfihneBt9KRverhF/5C6qKOwhJ5g0E=; b=dWsgnVBmoBGkyq7mGtPTHezZmm vtP7IvZ0xRo5ogA6sF1EtwLM5l3TIgkkxlk/rhrKVR5L3dN+TqMX9P940DBjhRZ4w/ZZxYdlvuPL3 drqYJQQS3kWMwV04ARsWukI9AECzu1piMr/9PzmeIehdpaQMQ7XgIO6Kj/yCaQasFIbc=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2blA-000LaZ-W8 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:16:00 +0700 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:16:00 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JwQp5RPLz4fCY X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=dWsgnVBm; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.33)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.76), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:16:03 -0000 --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 12:16, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? >=20 > Sorry, but I find this sort of a chalk vs cheese kind of comparison. Of course not. When deciding what to use in the next project, you have to advocate your choice in front of your superiors and colleagues, and your presentation should be well backed up with technical arguments.=20 When I advocate FreeBSD over Windows, for example, there are some very clear and easily defendable technical and economical advantages (open source, absence of viruses, BSD license - just to name a few). It is not so easy with FreeBSD vs Linux. For example, the absence of Docker (or analogous technology) for FreeBSD is a huge disadvantage. We need to name really superiour features to make up for this shortage. > You start making comparisons, then you have to list all possible Linux > distros, etc, you know the drill. In fact, there is quite a limited number of Linux distros to be considered for use in production, maybe 3-4, and they are not that different in their capabilities. Other distros are too exotic or geeky. --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEbBAEBAgAGBQJeRqugAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0/6wH90HlWUjLg04ID9xYIQCWI0JQ PYPB9u7+rkMsovvwiLFBXccUjq6Oc6bAnh3v1OFZ3UP5xK795kRw8sbNZoaLLnsq CO5DlzVHHDil3HtMuAkMHziodCCwOfCEa6xylR02tZgt2RXHJs74N44PfpuygR26 Rt7EeP7zZZw7K4zUedP3H1C1FXPcq0gou+Ilh8HYoH+q5sEh85qPICgXsHmUsqA6 PZ8o91NNCbtaGj1AaQRh8x+MwiLCOkQnqG9djS6fQi/nOLAHvsX3Y7/Y5vV6Ny3O cr+mu5e8JGANh2lyEixn2AYZ9RdJ6ixTF0fRu7y140m24J/tKh8+gxVL1ZCRrA== =nkRq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 14:21:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467F72363CB for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:21:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JwXl1y48z4fP8 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:21:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=is1dwZWlXZwsz4+3RjRI26qGLyGpnVDB5GWqgV+naDw=; b=iyeTG//LHCGgjjKb/UwypFhXqj DREZWLqgNFBRoaxhAkkRqSIBPCCYuwXKJ/eudh9uNWdxI2+5a9NXeEcxjEKmm6BMxJQhuXZg55dGE PXZZxLx79G0BIN5ZT7v/lDSF8B8H2Hsto5g/5SG8+H3h/USARzkGzWRBM2S9whC6Z1aY=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2bq9-000LcY-TI for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:21:09 +0700 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:21:09 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214142109.GB82559@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <202002141320.53562.dr.klepp@gmx.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wq9mPyueHGvFACwf" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <202002141320.53562.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JwXl1y48z4fP8 X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=iyeTG//L; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.33)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.76), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:21:12 -0000 --wq9mPyueHGvFACwf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > >=20 > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? > >=20 > > Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux has > > ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS > > implementation. > >=20 > > What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer > > FreeBSD for new installations? > >=20 >=20 > For me: root on ZFS.=20 Which gives us BEs (boot environments) and beadm. A *very* good point, thank you Nikolaus! > And no systemd. I don't think systemd is that bad. I've worked with Solaris svc, I'm not afraid any more. --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --wq9mPyueHGvFACwf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeRqzVAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY00RwH/3QFvzNYCBEiEpb3FABgnU1p RHATEAHVKtsHhPTItF0H8bLcqgzo1kZuG7TWk1dGTl2LbVxQx2VJxtPLMnm5Hv/C HCGXfxgH9uoIFso+KtaobK7fgBJ+baGA1SmHIruqYqKBu1A+O9EvA/zXyMfSNzhd BJzQpdAeU3GRRq/1eslDITujRBw4aT3q4G/UO6gsD2z+37olKSjehEIiiDrMFPs1 Fp2gCH7O0umBYTLnKhLnuEPXUxPdyyAMXQDFToYZC64VTVqrJ3qAnbrzhfyqlW9E Q8wxXGuSbEvPYyWF3A8xcoUVmZiIp/zAO4ZYEu3dwBP1hgZtb1d/OiR/Y4xt3wI= =m2Jm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wq9mPyueHGvFACwf-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 14:40:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D81237211 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:40:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic307-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JwyT4MCxz3BvP for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:40:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: W4KjXOYVM1m5Yp.3p1d5fxhfJUiwlY_V8PpudgWL3o9iB0IqOlDqqwd3NZKzl2c K1fU2lwkgtDFDghUu1wxAK37T2ebLI.AH9VYRfpNGqcIik_tbeHG3QBvjRxw3EYs_zjElx9OJj7i 2No_quv33RDKXUUz07kHxHB2R6MBf3IfS_hY7Eg2WN924t02H4ECEwqI4HKz9L3E7MMG8LGvaSCo tyn5leh3eP00wvY720Hiex3rgRZWvxz7xDNp5YfyKXMEHhKmkymmkb8OqBiSScHdMtIBAOFRRfa. 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A purely technical question: what > > > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? > > > > Sorry, but I find this sort of a chalk vs cheese kind of comparison. > > Of course not. When deciding what to use in the next project, you have > to advocate your choice in front of your superiors and colleagues, and > your presentation should be well backed up with technical arguments. I didn't really (and still don't) know the circumstances of your work environment. Failing that, this is really a chalk vs cheese scenario. I find both FreeBSD and Linux technically valid solutions (and I throw NetBSD into the mix). One has to be pragmatic and evaluate solutions against problems first. Advocating an OS over another one without taking care of circumstances doesn't make good advocacy. (I'm not having a go at you. I'm just talking out of my experience.) -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 15:01:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF9E237B0F for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:01:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=NkWe=4C=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be) Received: from orval.bbpf.belspo.be (orval.bbpf.belspo.be [193.191.208.90]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48JxRg0hb8z3DMs for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:01:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=NkWe=4C=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be) Received: from x1 (unknown [77.109.101.182]) by orval.bbpf.belspo.be (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDE511D4FC0D; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:01:48 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:01:40 +0100 From: Julien Cigar To: Victor Sudakov Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214150126.GA1219@x1> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JxRg0hb8z3DMs X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=NkWe=4C=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be designates 193.191.208.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=NkWe=4C=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.45 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[perdition.city]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.208.191.193.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-3.05)[ip: (-9.09), ipnet: 193.191.192.0/19(-4.54), asn: 2611(-1.60), country: BE(-0.02)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[julien@perdition.city,SRS0=NkWe=4C=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2611, ipnet:193.191.192.0/19, country:BE]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[julien@perdition.city,SRS0=NkWe=4C=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:01:52 -0000 On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 09:16:00PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 12:16, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > > > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > > > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? > > > > Sorry, but I find this sort of a chalk vs cheese kind of comparison. > > Of course not. When deciding what to use in the next project, you have > to advocate your choice in front of your superiors and colleagues, and > your presentation should be well backed up with technical arguments. > > When I advocate FreeBSD over Windows, for example, there are some very > clear and easily defendable technical and economical advantages (open > source, absence of viruses, BSD license - just to name a few). It is not > so easy with FreeBSD vs Linux. > > For example, the absence of Docker (or analogous technology) for FreeBSD > is a huge disadvantage. We need to name really superiour features to > make up for this shortage. ZFS, bectl, pf, MAC, ports and poudriere, jails, VNET, GEOM, development model (current -> stable -> release), BSD license, reviewing process (https://reviews.freebsd.org/), simplicity and clarity, documentation, linux binary compatibility, rctl, Dtrace support, ... Of course nothing is perfect (12.0-RELEASE was a very problematic release for us due to the various iflib issues and PR 236220), but from experience FreeBSD is a lot easier to manage and maintain than any of the Linux-es I used, especially if you deploy everything with (VNET) jails, ZFS, and a custom poudriere repository (branch based) (For Docker I honnestly never understood all the fuss, you can achieve the same thing with jails and something like Saltstack, so it's not at all an "huge" disadvantage to me) > > > > You start making comparisons, then you have to list all possible Linux > > distros, etc, you know the drill. > > In fact, there is quite a limited number of Linux distros to be > considered for use in production, maybe 3-4, and they are not that > different in their capabilities. Other distros are too exotic or geeky. > > -- > Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN > 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ -- Julien Cigar Belgian Biodiversity Platform (http://www.biodiversity.be) PGP fingerprint: EEF9 F697 4B68 D275 7B11 6A25 B2BB 3710 A204 23C0 No trees were killed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were terribly inconvenienced. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 15:02:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171EA237D9B for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wattersm@watters.ws) Received: from linux1.tor1.watters.ws (linux1.tor1.watters.ws [165.227.44.84]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48JxS264MNz3DV7 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wattersm@watters.ws) Received: from mdct-dev27.dartcontainer.com (unknown [192.5.211.213]) by linux1.tor1.watters.ws (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 323D9C4F7C3 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:04 +0000 (UTC) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Michael Watters Autocrypt: addr=wattersm@watters.ws; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFayHsoBEADQIhLWXAoE6StYIQIqct6xXwy7s37/u62G0V7PSdc3W4/AoSdC+ZvAXnn/ C8TfbP3VqtVty2DhUVpqUkyOUqeKV0OmSFwAeH/YROr3Rha3VNyUalpFGbDtYRSns8qjFGUj YhLxx6xCQLCiq3+YqUYK0hTIhJCn5zHMzFdp+TPz046LR3qA4OdaWtGZklUfeGys6kCWVAQG Vxx9+humCfWBjn9ANuNqiOmcjNomhGuQ8kCsvcdn3vAelwEyk6fkqLI8uw9kWyZeQ/RURyuW qKriujz0odrQf6MMUwMJ5zIFyLe7wuQxSDApeZXZ8eP6R73Ic+tcqQC4+RvIf5f6PnJhOpKJ d5TDcO6YsqKTc27XzHdx3LUEHEaNrD30TLmXytBNccuW+QOfXQtXh2oKpRRt5qyzGG384r25 7yND1ta1HPM5amgMq8YsbZTnqQHl6NG5WgGBt3jiRUnPXyINrUCy79l51EP8JJiC3qtQPufj nWtGCmovr5ZWeKIpk3s2elkk+zRUb4UViuvEX+qweMRu2R8uIfPpWG7UFQ/et7BFkfMl1O+t M+DFdNVaYtfgHICwyLoTGIDFDv4W3dqISTsU+z/YzSiGCH3rFqdabJfF3no0nyUAqkb5Yn+X 2X22JAq/N7LKrDf3uLy+sMVGHwoQI9T0WkyMpkkBYT777cAaBQARAQABzSNNYWNpbnRvc2gg S2V5IDx3YXR0ZXJzbUB3YXR0ZXJzLndzPsLBfQQTAQoAJwIbAwULCQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAgMB AAIeAQIXgAUCXhCt4QUJCyD2FwAKCRAFjwxRWGyoxgHFEACi0g4rpqfD6vJy3j9L7Xa3vEWR 1o27goTsPGbTETo2xT2RshG2mmmpDF/gxXUR7mUziiYNGynrOf1Rx05QhrrHYB6lTOPxlAVT ce5jJ24+WH3Mpy0eYtB2m6JgoVZtjYN9E7Wbvj2rYLlxQqlC5vzcXsLd5fsP+GeZnRwY3OIv WAk7cszx/QPmDFgSa7zF3JCT63yGutX8g+alKPAM92oy99KtjtO6ZpV7k/niwBE0QFTvCNZa kEdaAIFXJ8F7oc50KDowWpSP6zu8MkkCccPNAwM8VtZ21648yIvbtVo16KSxcWSR8DiGuqYz wPorqf3FQzpI4g8bfQUoezIJLus0slkIE0Nn3P1RKxKxcU3ehauPEcqJIowmdpeY7qsYB4Im G9ckIjBZXaKnifg73IB+bJlFY/pOR3c57xsYmzLujAvCsCDvKUENJ84aA/7AQWQjXUGelbQE 3Iqy32D9hOr0loSQWvDcT3yUovOaCykmiOl7I3bCV52kRXAiOVcEXtPdempVY309bq8RovFN pKVfxrkvEfZ8+1+C8xB9c4lpcDjOQ/5vbteSUEVK+blgX/6y4oDus3CphbmyaawAiKfykZJb EQjwhBuRdG9ytpdjdWC4H0ZgEyua4xFVeSy9jZopttya4r5JmLd2vzEkyOxTxGQcC80x57ia MmjK4ZR7K87BTQRWsh7KARAAoFKu2S/tNP3ywLThqtr7yPTq2CLKr5zdmw3c3fizqe0bxVi0 opQAhgi8uSoHqDn1sX7H8+938usihvobnhIX2izCv9e1dyoxzyM/AZGers2hd+ZFTZNawDIQ ZOilcHewQ4PWEDDQFrxF33wm2WPqcpgyXj3YLVirHTdDDM1/bffUfxND/33mo9Ch5b2B4Q8C WSPeSieGE2HFjbTA7RTjpG6mTNyBQ/3PjzMApMtk//0vIctMj9qFMLo9VeTJrYoG5Egu+5dT nDxTlaYuh53Vea5+DkSKY6/N6J/Sk8quRWFHkJ6KAAReTFWIHloqaafjfM2NuUZLu/FyMC1m 5algd8qWlPXWQV0C2BRUTxfvOBuaF/CSUUVYGRl3qMGs1v73l96k74KDhX0msKxLORyANlvS 7bSQqE3+GihxIjAwEWyE8VEO5HfIWCYp+s3ZDRrdrlB1apao4JMSTScaDubv+9+i/lH4r7Y4 hdCgS+bAAADaw2XJOzYUBeuj8UeYkgu2hZ/WFssEEZxsZf51QLRehyJtXxUk0jKQ1rTOGP7T +AomoP5Bu1fuCoXBUozOKpPUV2kb3MRe2iekUCGZkV8ENRut+wbFpspIZ+5XkAg0hLVFO0zS NYW/+e86Ztitn+FaZp301Hp6tGUB2uNPLas+PhSddp5zME5PcnR8TFsy2HEAEQEAAcLBZQQY AQoADwUCVrIeygIbDAUJB4YfgAAKCRAFjwxRWGyoxlaGD/9SVQsFtCy1bTxEhLSfdR/Wkvis om77lO5cYLKl5xwLgDSUAGwP7Nz8+a5P/eN9ougRa8J2+JYHhmrhMnkuDyoZ9n+TUACCDoeP Fta8zfJueeUXJohTkc0xf11J9s5PeQUDuLUeERnr5JdRYHP/tfFNwJICn4o/7Wb5BVVEuS0k 6CM4WEpqrUwe1yeMkmYvxLeycVc0TD8GH09odAqRXFsfWwIxcKBd5tmxnNQ4ICcqmCpkD1lb AhMbt9SDJUzHXAyRBtMoCjF+zmb1BHfd9gbaUjY/8fvE5ILhJ4w2cs6ld2XCOlyQ7qg2l8+7 xADhVcwEEuDn7rx0qa3CdTNtxwMY/u+B2Om9VK3uJlBq7D0V9XPoCi41hUAejvhEgJ0AXexS d1t0Iv6GUpJ26isFC16FuR52fbp884wWwQ/Nksh2dNe0aWXSj2WkvAQlCIJjzvfz5Lm1Mrrs FDZuTLMEbHOVcgtktmrfyetgUv0HPFwGCc1x+9KAsJEn4yj4MHzFfWxV1t8X4oPFlf6jvDXH Ei0MTzFIWtO6EiWAkjuBBz+ANMrL1Fx74TWQdRfxF/zXExP3l5JUWGn6JwZqmMfz8Yk6dhaF jj0S9Kvyx5zCsHyvluHCleYXjTDvvWijKklKXC9ukw1gqakuwSQMwgUOinUWyqdbZYGpPsMR vmD/OYgfig== Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:01:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yEIm0KkvJqtYsCjL9SAx9P96OWoyqh6Gy" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JxS264MNz3DV7 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wattersm@watters.ws designates 165.227.44.84 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wattersm@watters.ws X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.84 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/mixed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[watters.ws]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:165.227.32.0/20, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.45)[ipnet: 165.227.32.0/20(0.85), asn: 14061(1.48), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:02:12 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --yEIm0KkvJqtYsCjL9SAx9P96OWoyqh6Gy Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="5SLg5iy5qp1326JNP6OrzmFTmJiuUXgQR"; protected-headers="v1" From: Michael Watters To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> --5SLg5iy5qp1326JNP6OrzmFTmJiuUXgQR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US FreeBSD is a true Unix and the way that the system is organized and developed is simply more coherent than Linux.=A0 Documentation for FreeBS= D beats the pants off anything Linux has.=A0 RHEL docs are pretty good but they're still no match for the FreeBSD handbook and man pages.=A0 Command= s aren't deprecated every six months (ifconfig vs. ip, etc.).=A0 libxo support.=A0 I could go on. Having ZFS integrated into the base OS is also a killer feature.=A0 ZoL i= s a dog and isn't even officially supported by the kernel. On 2/14/20 7:16 AM, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux= ? > > Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux ha= s > ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS > implementation. > > What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer > FreeBSD for new installations? > --5SLg5iy5qp1326JNP6OrzmFTmJiuUXgQR-- --yEIm0KkvJqtYsCjL9SAx9P96OWoyqh6Gy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJeRrZrAAoJEAWPDFFYbKjGQ/gP/0iZM99qw4O73OeiWkyC5Ehx qqrdqhyu78/Y9OLKONuu2YkUahQ9Psxa4MZXKn1zLGS05BiKNiZULT4rGoUe2gxj Jz73HzHggTxu0g6Ew/fmduZXAh4b57kkIlxLn07YVDgl8icMHPXAeHB0agdAPX+y 29GSMoipbdZ1DyX3PW7WpGviRun270aVYMSA7IUYQUOYHV3n4oGf3CrNlo+owAkd 2zXj0g0gdog20w8Z0oQCIKJ39ezLFK30tEXPoS2iwbBdVtSDi0g2tWoxQMjtlWN7 kZ6qIrxBKORPRjr8D868NlHISMe2sWkUHRtBSqApPTCBz/NYg8uboyqfCLj8e1RA nzycUUwj0ZEWZ78QKKpNziUYuXqtmpfuEfIOST0eeNP1z5jPkLRQsqEStkceuNTT mYDcThiGXo5dQldLQLbmPNR7zH21fShQHO77I02nvdCUHOsuYWCD0sOYgKVNI5RD G+QaNoGO4Rdv3yIwWOWp4/PTdye3B+cH3TyDINQZDewzTJQLBVM7rUzGQ6fKCqiF na2wbj3evspAHKW+A1sf6UHWqWtbR+MIoodK7yBxI81oLrsj5KZxWa81iUOnOBZ4 JcUA5cy4Nc5ShCY4NPNCWSgjCaCVXn8SfIELSvzXe7iXvE8Lsw2mTWK8EBb9LyUD s4RMfygNTPAYszRR/eOs =87X5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yEIm0KkvJqtYsCjL9SAx9P96OWoyqh6Gy-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 15:14:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A566E23832D for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:14:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (net-2-44-121-52.cust.vodafonedsl.it [2.44.121.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Jxjt4q3Dz3FF3 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:14:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from alamar.ventu (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01EFDvDa084734 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:14:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be alamar.ventu Subject: Re: Cannot get remote GDB to work To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <50a10abf-4873-2acc-4f8b-efb9bddb1194@netfence.it> From: Andrea Venturoli Message-ID: <6cabc27a-81c2-3735-fa24-6f573667211d@netfence.it> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:13:57 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50a10abf-4873-2acc-4f8b-efb9bddb1194@netfence.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jxjt4q3Dz3FF3 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 2.44.121.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.41 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:2.44.121.52]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; IP_SCORE(-1.61)[ip: (-7.94), ipnet: 2.44.0.0/16(-3.97), asn: 30722(3.86), country: IT(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:14:11 -0000 On 2020-02-11 15:09, Andrea Venturoli wrote: > Hello. > > I'm trying to debug through a serial cable, as described in: >> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/developers-handbook/kerneldebug-online-gdb.html >> > > I followed the instruction (I believe correctly), but when I issue > "target remote /dev/cuau0", I get: > >> Remote debugging using /dev/cuau0 >> Ignoring packet error, continuing... >> warning: unrecognized item "timeout" in "qSupported" response >> Ignoring packet error, continuing... >> Remote replied unexpectedly to 'vMustReplyEmpty': timeout > > > > I tried launching "cu -l /dev/cuau0" on both sides: I can correctly see > what I type in the debugging terminal appear on the host's screen, but > not vice versa. > This starts working again, when I remove flags 0x80 from > hint.uart.0.flags and change it back to 0x10 (default). > > > Any hint? > >  bye & Thanks >     av. > > P.S. Both machines are physical (no virtualization here), both are > 12.1/amd64 and both serial ports are dumb old style serial ports. Sorry, I hate to bump. If no one can help here, can you suggest somewhere else to take this question? bye & Thanks av. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 15:19:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E167023853C for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:19:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from quantafac@ubiquitous.ninja) Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (relay2-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JxrW1k4Hz3FQ8 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:19:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from quantafac@ubiquitous.ninja) X-Originating-IP: 192.58.125.225 Received: from [10.195.227.9] (unknown [192.58.125.225]) (Authenticated sender: quantafac@ubiquitous.ninja) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A0DB40004 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:19:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Steven Malone Autocrypt: addr=quantafac@ubiquitous.ninja; keydata= mDMEXZ+FrRYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAPOy66/FdrUe7LSmCSr4sCCqOKq66FmrZ71M8FVcxwHq0 KlN0ZXZlbiBNYWxvbmUgPHF1YW50YWZhY0B1YmlxdWl0b3VzLm5pbmphPoiWBBMWCAA+FiEE sbE6S5tWz0H8MMQ2TrPHE+T1cYsFAl2fha0CGwMFCQlmAYAFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwEC HgECF4AACgkQTrPHE+T1cYueJgEA32EZLjUpfHU13/cS9hnYt5KNgV/TRT+sO/P5DWxprsEA /0YyKo6JKitwGzbYy78NiIWRfOwO59bl5h9CSOdnQDIMuDgEXZ+FrRIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEH QMdIm7w03QqBSfz3jioXDoC+XgjoXAXEtXeDb5MIOFtfAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEEsbE6S5tW z0H8MMQ2TrPHE+T1cYsFAl2fha0CGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQTrPHE+T1cYtAygEAhBGLDTy+NeQg oD/BmQ2JyUbcIRXhScaFB2FqFYvE4IUBAOAPoP3HCcqG5l3z49/1qloDSZcrJ+Ac7L1jeXdz CDUB Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 09:19:50 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JxrW1k4Hz3FQ8 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of quantafac@ubiquitous.ninja designates 217.70.183.194 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=quantafac@ubiquitous.ninja X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[194.183.70.217.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.70.183.192/28]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[ubiquitous.ninja]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-1.15)[ip: (-2.88), ipnet: 217.70.176.0/20(-1.58), asn: 29169(-1.29), country: FR(0.00)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[194.183.70.217.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:29169, ipnet:217.70.176.0/20, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:19:56 -0000 Victor, While this may not be a technical response, I have had immensely better experiences managing a FreeBSD server than a Linux one. The primary difference in my experience has been around system upgrades. When updating Linux I have had all sorts of applications start failing after the a simple package update. I do not have this problem when updating FreeBSD, it has been much more reliable for me. I have also seen similar results from system upgrades, Linux upgrades have broken my system countless times. I have never had a FreeBSD system completely tank after an upgrade. Not saying it would never happen, but it has been so much more stable I avoid Linux where-ever possible. I am sure there are technical reasons for this, probably having to do with the way FreeBSD manages itself as a complete OS instead of a collection of bits around a kernel. I think Michael W. Lucas puts it best "FreeBSD lets me sleep at night." On 2/14/20 6:16 AM, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? > > Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux has > ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS > implementation. > > What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer > FreeBSD for new installations? > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 16:00:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266082390B7 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:00:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Jykl28zBz3Hd4 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:59:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581695999; x=1584287999; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=wIApiGy6zi7rh3EOvq+UoHa5/thmtIOXfdZSyZZ8xHs=; b=TFIB7v2+KoMmCpH0q3OeavH5MUan48MgVJU+79yy7xu07NjNiTC8dtDdvvEVjuXclnamxtf0YGYL9SHzYTRlu0x83ebL1l4DyL/ikZUMPPcMJgKr+qbvvPM5ZrFK72VDyK8vXE06z0/f8pbpDCQojeIZYURAX4mIT0vo1UK5P6o= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDMxNDVmOC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:59:57 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:59:57 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2dNj-000AVH-Jh for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:59:55 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:59:55 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200214155955.da0cfcc66bf33be45ffe9d2b@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jykl28zBz3Hd4 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=TFIB7v2+; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.88 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.989,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.30), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.60), asn: 7381(0.29), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:00:00 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:16:20 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: > What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer > FreeBSD for new installations?: The real reasons aren't found by looking at features IMHO viz: There is one FreeBSD and a thousand Linuxes. FreeBSD gains a lot of subtle benefits around consistency and completeness from being self-hosting. Not the least being a comprehensive and steadily improving CI system that actually tests what is being released. There is a clear distinction between base and ports so you always know where to send bug-reports or queries. Documentation is shipped with the system so you don't wind up having to search the web for documentation and find it's for a later version than the one you have. The BSD License means you can keep your commercial secrets legally no matter what you do to or with it. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 16:00:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D08423910F for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:00:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48Jyl025Ypz3HhT for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:00:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C73804E6B9; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:00:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: Victor Sudakov , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <1eb61cba-5e28-e8ea-c418-a06f0f94ec86@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:00:11 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Jyl025Ypz3HhT X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.68 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.950,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.972,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.14)[ip: (0.40), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.20), asn: 160(0.16), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:00:13 -0000 On 2020-02-14 08:16, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: >> On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 12:16, Victor Sudakov wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what >>> technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? >> >> Sorry, but I find this sort of a chalk vs cheese kind of comparison. > > Of course not. When deciding what to use in the next project, you have > to advocate your choice in front of your superiors and colleagues, and > your presentation should be well backed up with technical arguments. > > When I advocate FreeBSD over Windows, for example, there are some very > clear and easily defendable technical and economical advantages (open > source, absence of viruses, BSD license - just to name a few). It is not > so easy with FreeBSD vs Linux. > > For example, the absence of Docker (or analogous technology) for FreeBSD > is a huge disadvantage. We need to name really superiour features to > make up for this shortage. > In my book docker is really a disadvantage, not advantage, compared to FreeBSD jails. Namely: 1. docker carries pretty much whole system for one instance of what you run in docker (that is, you have to patch all those instances of docker you run), whereas whole bunch of jails can run under single instance of base system; hence only one base system to update/patch 2. [correct me someone if I'm wrong, I'm not a Docker expert): docker has system whose components are read-write inside of its instance, hence it is more vulnerable to malicious changes from inside running docker instance, whereas base system stuff is (nullfs) read-only mounted in case of FreeBSD jail, so at least changes to that from inside jail can not be made by malicious attempts. Of course, "market drives", and of course as it is in case of consumer product market, ignorant in its mass consumer base drives market offerings towards poorer solutions. Non-Microsoft mass Operating System customer being mostly Linux, much less footprint for anything else, drives forward Linux based solutions [especially commercial ones]. Hence, if your superiors have a goal to be more independent of experts like you, but prefer to have employee base easily replaced (by more average though still decent sysadmins), if advised genuinely, they will lean towards Linux based anything. Just my two cents. Valeri > >> You start making comparisons, then you have to list all possible Linux >> distros, etc, you know the drill. > > In fact, there is quite a limited number of Linux distros to be > considered for use in production, maybe 3-4, and they are not that > different in their capabilities. Other distros are too exotic or geeky. > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 16:27:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159E723A050 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:27:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aimass@yabarana.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JzLg2Wkfz3KyT for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:27:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aimass@yabarana.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id w1so11389770ljh.5 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:27:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wtC/6O3HbsXjuY6SlaYLgmgDxDIrxieQqBdZ26jXebY=; b=OieR1svp25SWGJ4hx2w+dSPtZUSk9/5S7LhRcFtyJGnRvIDePl9NelWpmOJjOiQToG HMUsiaiODw7Wvh6p+QASTd+UkKVKXv/8HwlU5G7OWlJH2WDUfSoQIH0StlokkX+wXBwi 7Jvzx554mk7oAKlyKYTU0jCoSm7kl7O0GUiWRIKoBUoF3lGpVS/+ldxQ/Mphj1E+VeGD J4DGPgeMkLcN5gl6hQCBaYrvQ1dAEE+kmMCSmNcO6uoj67tjAqpWhcQTOTxgjT8iyexy WuUTQMK8z1RI9eSLmJcGWeNif8QlGboRnyL45OL1HRiqpfOTtNtV6TLOiLVkUT3kV46C FP4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wtC/6O3HbsXjuY6SlaYLgmgDxDIrxieQqBdZ26jXebY=; b=OMNm/GFq5rF6RkCq67Gl0Nsaws1AKnM0NZHfsSdC6VqUWEu1SHOqdpUV+xvJrG6FZu 3cHwXwGnyqGXekC5Qdd43b2a861VdIk8ucLlYg+vAwl+jsf2YIPi8NhuzNn/7DDJNgrY 0CSFHZBfbZOsWqNLbQxxjGlzpqrxp8z786TR1IYsgcB6x1zdGzAnz27pOHa68DYl7qWR wNLqijlqpTyWV8sDLclPdZBj2JnZrGA/RZDuRmqugrU98gBE+X0z2hHkeMI6Tx5O90vM 6y0mNz0htlOayOp2PdjMuqiwOfmgZG1FYCt7xIR5QqXjmoizKyha3DVw0aoKIEW2M1+a oysw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXMlXbTXp16DxLJdWw/QrltmOpCjKitHI2GN1bExcKNm+C6rt7T 5lGfSbtC3PaP5IdARVdmfAFWJt++mwQiowBgJvUqNA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwH6doeMt7V9tHfgv+r6OOketoQjGS1QxGDtVYxkwfegdfKuuXDvIliYFRVPR6PfY1k9WuKHR6Le2vQmzITsPQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9218:: with SMTP id k24mr2553725ljg.262.1581697656039; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:27:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Alejandro Imass Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:27:24 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: Victor Sudakov Cc: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JzLg2Wkfz3KyT X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=OieR1svp; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aimass@yabarana.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aimass@yabarana.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.17 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yabarana.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[b.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.67)[ip: (-9.18), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.42), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:27:44 -0000 On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 7:16 AM Victor Sudakov wrote: > What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer > FreeBSD for new installations? > > Thing is that most of the industry is moving away from bare metal and into the cloud and in that sense Linux (particularly Ubuntu Server) is the defacto standard it seems. The reason I moved to FreeBSD like around 2006 was that Linux's virtual memory manager was not very good at that time and whenever you force Linux to swap it usually left the system unstable and required reboot. Whereas FreeBSD you push it to the max (99%+ of swap) and would always recover. And this was way back in FreeBSD 6 and I can only guess it's gotten better, whereas Linux probably is not worrying too much about this since most Linux servers today in AWS don't even have swap, and what for, since they act mostly as a POSIX API on top of multiple layers of virtualized shit. After we made the move, discovering EzJail was the killer feature for us. We were basically doing all the stuff people are doing nowadays with Docker and Terraform etc. We had these kind of flexible and powerful CI/CD pipelines with FreeBSD when these terms weren't even coined as such. That's why I laugh at my younger colleagues who think they are more advanced than what we were doing 14 years ago. And that's the issue with this industry is all the FADs and wheel reinvention. It's the same thing with languages for example. Perl 5 and plain ol C are probably still superior to anything out there today, and only now are we seeing some true advancement in the right direction (e.g. Rust, Go etc.). So if you ask me FreeBSD could probably focus away from this cloud FAD and continue to evolve it's very powerful features and target people that have not gave into this cloud bullshit, and to real sysadmins who are not afraid of taking responsibility instead of hiding behind AWS or Azure. Let them go down that path, and let us focus on reality and bare metal. IMHO, BSD could invest in taking projects like EzJail (plus ZFS) to make this functionality native and EASY, provide an images database and the infrastructure to provide a NATIVE, bare metal equivalent to Docker + Terraform. In other words, FreeBSD and other BSD projects could offer NATIVE and modern CI/CD and IaaS pipelines on bare metal. Just food for thought. Best, -- Alex From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 16:34:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7315223A423 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:34:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48JzV15Vzxz3Lbs for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:34:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com with SMTP id n8so4516740qvg.11 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:34:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:face:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yWDrWZ5nsawF7Zx8IytkOBJdJgvY8mAOt0Xy8M1m3Rc=; b=IGuY2CkBeeW+FBcaf+RIMt2CnPUXPg8740te7g7IjYyNq5xPKJJKAvCSS49zQ9WECW mMBXPQYY4UKTVARQohedBzc8WiAo5YaHxLXpEXRiTVE4/K3spbzLsD0GUELfH8wH3DHH QdrRZdMfY4v0oF4jw/n/G3BuJmY9+b8FGI/pU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:face:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yWDrWZ5nsawF7Zx8IytkOBJdJgvY8mAOt0Xy8M1m3Rc=; b=Kc0Or8Ix5QbgFpgrOXiEFwvpG95sJQ2IdmgVZyztGHGKDRXD4Eku3APKZ/OotkTs7s yOPQ4pay7vZGDu4InclxH+BlE87o6wiDWZGMxnScHIuUqe9x6boR+bxPa3WOmFbNuqyE Digy/iireBvqJAuyOXHZkGUQoNyswSzP24f+3Xkj8LRUzK4e9Li2RcitpWByLE9NmBC4 ddYAbKWP8rUfZaWiVLUnTcWajC9y+bcPSTPoGvZ9Y/T1ME6bQ8h34XmW8vMdMGLdaFQz 2WIJ+WQ9RZxsuvrJOQJpfKpoNiG74OtoTH3GTwKcz/4TZUuSAELtF+pwl3+n+WHaUl2Z Ny0A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV9ZP2tmh6dh5NbVaAaMISsyZuTaSQ/ZRZl+cXIxqdPDxURwsUp YFYJSLkRW7SHHeMczkwOz0Sv3u8refI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxsUaXT/eAhBXqZcgSWxsejLI2Vp+HXf2cYaEKnW5GA/BRKcQMNFX3MtW+0nOOsC3luEy6N3w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:6aa:: with SMTP id s10mr2964283qvz.138.1581698040604; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w202sm1588584qkb.89.2020.02.14.08.33.59 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:33:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48JzTz0BDNz1X4L for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:33:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:33:58 -0500 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214113358.225faf5e@scorpio> In-Reply-To: <20200214150126.GA1219@x1> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214150126.GA1219@x1> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.3) Face: 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 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48JzV15Vzxz3Lbs X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=IGuY2CkB; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-1.30)[ip: (-2.86), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-1.90), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[250.225.109.174.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:34:02 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:01:40 +0100, Julien Cigar stated: >Of course nothing is perfect (12.0-RELEASE was a very problematic >release for us due to the various iflib issues and PR 236220), but from >experience FreeBSD is a lot easier to manage and maintain than any of >the Linux-es I used, especially if you deploy everything with (VNET) >jails, ZFS, and a custom poudriere repository (branch based) 12.0-RELEASE is more than slightly problematic on my machine. I cannot even get it to run correctly. SEE: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666 -- Jerry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 17:35:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63C423BB7A for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:35:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K0rR4l6gz3QcP for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:35:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from cds220.dcs.int.inet ([10.0.153.144]) by shaw.ca with ESMTP id 2erkjhGnjnCig2erljVfRA; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:35:02 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1581701702; bh=ywbh/my6AHh6Wt4K6NNxvQruD1YWQ6aMFFpZTkCqPyI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=Fw5fKF7FO53cBbXVAblHtMI+SP4OJBnMoFDoOsQEk9CT2RpHjKpOCSbyKSC0LJgzu 2mg7T+qZIDpHbmj9UI4soP4psRVkXdpWOdCH0jQlsDK6LVt8xZKRogHlYN77hVn1VH 2SMOnWYnQ5Qf9n1wcEfKL8lUxvMzgdj6MpQX6UU6gmP8knnlHsVjVhKQ9uePNdrwI6 HRvcvvtmNs4fvOK+7/7dbur1eV/nKWyyi5ZxpVozeo6p2CIXce4u8/+Pqh0CZvIxFy m5O1VrERnKZDilJBV8cAr5nSWYeSs2Ky7eRBfJD0YWhaYtpVvwQtrHZy5x2Pf7O5PQ Qg4aJD2zlPRNw== X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=cZisUULM c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=YjOmSjUxhsfmstj0eziGpw==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=FKkrIqjQGGEA:10 a=on0NmgUIp3IA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=v2ztYnMHAAAA:8 a=cbhV4p7HAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=LDfKg5y0aGQEmoqLaVQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=UlBjsC_V3DA_X-k2u0I0:22 a=z-V2QqvRhG52jeeRkh-B:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:35:00 -0700 (MST) From: Dale Scott To: Alejandro Imass Cc: Victor Sudakov , freebsd-questions Message-ID: <2011372779.118117269.1581701700318.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [162.223.103.50, 162.223.103.50] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.11_GA_3799 (ZimbraWebClient - GC80 (Win)/8.8.11_GA_3787) Thread-Topic: Technological advantages over Linux Thread-Index: 39Uyi3/wSTEr3gR6YCQjNsaCE0C+sw== X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNEdCXwOBoGc7OzKnaHou2qnSBNHjrCRn+q9N7UrKFCj9LsvdaZ20Grt/dYbRSKauKd/TmM1/uuKwGGNjpje26vuQYuLWLhTxOlD6gVBFhrl9WyHfboQ LlQbJS/bfJDna4rNLVuIDu8Ex6EhNWHPA7Wo4kTq/eUDRVZKkQDjgEOrEsk+PkSH4IQlFBqDzhiy2qun5Lu5kSCZzLNsH72a9gpzF69jDAwezqEKz3DCBPRY clCdvjAQGwNVMkADzeRJyg== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K0rR4l6gz3QcP X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=Fw5fKF7F; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=shaw.ca; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dalescott@shaw.ca designates 64.59.134.9 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dalescott@shaw.ca X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.59 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[shaw.ca:s=s20180605]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[9.134.59.64.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.59.134.0/25]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[shaw.ca:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[shaw.ca,none]; IP_SCORE(-2.49)[ip: (-6.64), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.22), asn: 6327(-2.51), country: CA(-0.09)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[9.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[shaw.ca.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:35:04 -0000 +1. Linux is abstraction on top of abstraction, it is like SAP! The pendulum has started to swing, abstraction that could be done without only increases project duration and effort, and reduces future maintainability. A story I heard recently concerned a consultant, who wanted to use a particular piece of technology because the consultant knew he could produce a superior solution. However, the consultant realized that once he was gone, the technology would be as if magic to the company, and the solution would over time become less understood and maintainable, and so the consultant used more familiar "old-school" technology because long-term it would be better for the client. Food for thought.... ;-) ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alejandro Imass" > To: "Victor Sudakov" > Cc: "freebsd-questions" > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 9:27:24 AM > Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux > On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 7:16 AM Victor Sudakov wrote: > > >> What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer >> FreeBSD for new installations? >> >> > Thing is that most of the industry is moving away from bare metal and into > the cloud and in that sense Linux (particularly Ubuntu Server) is the > defacto standard it seems. > > The reason I moved to FreeBSD like around 2006 was that Linux's virtual > memory manager was not very good at that time and whenever you force Linux > to swap it usually left the system unstable and required reboot. Whereas > FreeBSD you push it to the max (99%+ of swap) and would always recover. And > this was way back in FreeBSD 6 and I can only guess it's gotten better, > whereas Linux probably is not worrying too much about this since most Linux > servers today in AWS don't even have swap, and what for, since they act > mostly as a POSIX API on top of multiple layers of virtualized shit. > > After we made the move, discovering EzJail was the killer feature for us. > We were basically doing all the stuff people are doing nowadays with Docker > and Terraform etc. We had these kind of flexible and powerful CI/CD > pipelines with FreeBSD when these terms weren't even coined as such. That's > why I laugh at my younger colleagues who think they are more advanced than > what we were doing 14 years ago. And that's the issue with this industry is > all the FADs and wheel reinvention. > > It's the same thing with languages for example. Perl 5 and plain ol C are > probably still superior to anything out there today, and only now are we > seeing some true advancement in the right direction (e.g. Rust, Go etc.). > > So if you ask me FreeBSD could probably focus away from this cloud FAD and > continue to evolve it's very powerful features and target people that have > not gave into this cloud bullshit, and to real sysadmins who are not afraid > of taking responsibility instead of hiding behind AWS or Azure. Let them go > down that path, and let us focus on reality and bare metal. > > IMHO, BSD could invest in taking projects like EzJail (plus ZFS) to make > this functionality native and EASY, provide an images database and the > infrastructure to provide a NATIVE, bare metal equivalent to Docker + > Terraform. In other words, FreeBSD and other BSD projects could offer > NATIVE and modern CI/CD and IaaS pipelines on bare metal. > > Just food for thought. > > Best, > > -- > Alex > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 18:02:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A6D23C7BE for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:02:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K1S55Y35z3xf9 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:02:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.39.141]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1Mc1hn-1jcZ8b262B-00dUo4; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:02:22 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:02:20 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Dale Scott Cc: Alejandro Imass , freebsd-questions , Victor Sudakov Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200214190220.1560784d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <2011372779.118117269.1581701700318.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <2011372779.118117269.1581701700318.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1rsOXXeCD37MdAFRTjIQ/yHxjp3h7625z6/WHGGxn1Qd2ZGpXvD gYV81jZMAJy4UcKhuqDG4P3swism+/LHmSJQnMREedmeM+kLQJxEPvHtn+bbqhTDfJQ8meq PROqg8cPneyx/e3DvUtaPMzzPzKpx4dZ53mm3s3heu4rkltfUjkAEBXhLOlN1JjHMavCJL9 MxWHVWgEbp3/Dpjww0CNQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:CPKdLsxz8Nk=:iYNp4Dumi3PiudOVrKR0QG p5qvroADJ7RinaIaka7Niy0FZG1FJLwO29NUzFkTygO4ktD4uyoujfFBu244fN5TBHzMFqzaO jcqq7ku2UqJVHdK2bYc1eESICSxxG7GuyM3fVP4JfaoWHLiZdeYeU0f7BOM+M4tqTj8aFUCgj Pih4E3OfixrpS7MEQVUMrXGc58OosECDREsBqXrmTyj3EOtyNK2tjoNW7bWBduzCLandLdCo4 PwSajcetEpL2SpKsAN8yt3RdEcokIvGCyBrR1h/H8bqZVsYuU5HwsyiBOAiVI8tXYjvJQ5PzG /5UNoFe/Ne2vtrautvI4fnahN+nyW3xVQnpoBKih8PPCrWSi5T5YEjClcEHRtfx5LlYBPfBCd seHEKN9Ms6IvvW8/lrwNeTLzbGKXQQuSqISAfk7+NP2IIQN7PctNejGSea1JWlpGMC48Z+zeJ Bz0MRfEasuzswmn8hcPLdF/JHXRLBWdmcJPPSIQJ1HDDWo7q0YYrX8JTLNh/V2MTCxFZwllvT +auInVHH0G5w+VpaQc9pczPVBvAwfnkS5oeREv2xEpSQIn4lplsYXjsBDUO7JveM7PrN3DGwO fxvkeo51PaERhrhVAMD1JFRNGcD+ZUl1UWF6zFR2Ktp0I2K28lRSZN8GFkxHjfa4SD2jxsvnD 94awMbzlSPJesy5dtRhZ/pkcL1uj1UXx5ngaZQYR4yxNrmmpusNFmkcPCu6RpVEV8YX346jES Id2Gx9YsK8hvccKAFJu7E5jJ5ADd8PRwKKIGe1c7/tnGcIFOdb9GAwCrPV9ijjBCFE8IMkMD4 MMv05Yct8Z6zsS+BxVh7FkvrvVr0J0nontK+dWzd7+fqRMOt5ImiDU4eOV+AIihFxNvWvkP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K1S55Y35z3xf9 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.65 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[141.39.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.94)[0.936,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.998,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[187.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[187.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.31)[ip: (0.49), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.12), asn: 8560(2.21), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:02:32 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:35:00 -0700 (MST), Dale Scott wrote: > +1. Linux is abstraction on top of abstraction, it is like SAP! No, SAP is inner platform. ;-) But basically, you are correct. According to my (limited and individual) experiences, people are used to put abstractions on top of abstractions, several layers, and they expect (!) things to always be like that. So for example, if you'd say for a specific task you'd build a FreeBSD system with the function of a mailserver, they'd tell you that you cannot do this, because you need this running on that controlled by something else scripted by something else controlled by again something different virtualized on blah blah blah. I find it hard to even remember this week's set of tools you "need" to use... > The pendulum has started to swing, abstraction that could be done without > only increases project duration and effort, and reduces future maintainability. With those piles of abstraction, you lose control, and you don't recognize it immediately, but when it _stops_ working and you are held liable for a problem. In such a case, costs will be significant (except you are in the lucky position where you can just have your customers pay for your failure). As always, you can shift costs around, but at a certain point, when your business depends too much on the good will of several (!) 3rd parties, and one of them closes shop, you are immediately affected and have "non-controllable" costs to modify your "stack" to get it working again. > A story I heard recently concerned a consultant, who wanted to use a > particular piece of technology because the consultant knew he could produce > a superior solution. However, the consultant realized that once he was gone, the > technology would be as if magic to the company, and the solution would over time > become less understood and maintainable, and so the consultant used more familiar > "old-school" technology because long-term it would be better for the client. > Food for thought.... ;-) Here is an important piece of information: Short term vs. long term. In my opinion, if costs don't matter, and you want a certain combination of things right away, a Linux solution will do. It will work short term, within a certain time window, and will probably do without significant problems. But if you need to provide something for a long term, reliably, and understandable (!) for those who have to maintain it, FreeBSD probably is the better solution. Again, "worse" and "better" significantly depends on what your actual use case is. I wouldn't generalize, even though my personal "list of superiority" contains, among others: - UFS - ZFS and BEs - clean and predictable (!) OS - OS separated from 3rd party software - documentation locally available - release approach - no "moving target" - good development tools - friendly, helpful and intelligent community - compliant to existing standards - well intended security barriers - general "UNIX mentality" - distribution as RELEASE / STABLE / HEAD, whatever you need - ports collection & pkg Sure, there is lots of potential for improvement. As it has been mentioned, OpenBSD shines at documentation, but FreeBSD isn't all that bad - compared to some Linusi (plural of Linux) where documentation is scattered across user web pages, wikis, discussion forums and "WhatsApp" groups, partially outdated or simply just wrong. For developers, this is a nightmare, but sysadmins also suffer from it. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 18:29:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C876023D680 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:29:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K23M4r06z40jS for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:29:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581704976; x=1584296976; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=6Kpx2T0Tw1XK4D0S6i6u23EeyxTmzFsoLhMFRQVjMYY=; b=E9lGPmmoo1ZEIO2JVIoSSNJ1VdEH/TFh4pzu1u1DrkeNKbHrzbLHia+7F8Rp072RjZV0PjNM9uqsFK2J5aYgpdBYey8NIFOhphSFDgMvV7J0y3qronwtAHt929U0qBeGfOvNgXecG93vv87zzPa8dNXRgHLezkh+bWbchp8CakU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDM2OTA3Zi5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:29:32 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:29:31 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2fiU-000AzS-HD; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:29:30 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:29:30 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Robert Huff Cc: tech-lists , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting Message-Id: <20200214182930.df325195e2a378a3b6f50573@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <24134.39022.519866.759080@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <20200213155256.GD14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <1090523a-377c-9412-5db1-38e825e35956@mm.st> <20200214121003.GB39057@bastion.zyxst.net> <24134.39022.519866.759080@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K23M4r06z40jS X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=E9lGPmmo; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.995,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.30), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.59), asn: 7381(0.29), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:29:36 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 07:54:06 -0500 Robert Huff wrote: > _If_ that's true, then it's a bug and needs to be fixed. The > folks posting here may not need it ... but I find it hard to imagine > various organizations that use FreeBSD (or would like to) on hardcore > server hardware wouldn't find that a substantial liability. > While this may be more suited to hackers@: can anyone here > confirm there is an encoded limit on swap space? According to this there is (or was at the time) a hard coded limit of 32GB per swap device - just checked it's still there. You can of course have several swap devices - which is probably a very good idea if you actually need more than 32GB of swap. https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2011-August/063529.html Relevant text: Anyway, there is one thing in /usr/src/sys/vm/swap_pager.c (so if you get this warning (reducing size to maximum of... per swap unit)), this might be the reason: /* * If we go beyond this, we get overflows in the radix * tree bitmap code. */ mblocks = 0x40000000 / BLIST_META_RADIX; if (nblks > mblocks) { printf("WARNING: reducing size to maximum of %lu blocks per swap unit\n", mblocks); nblks = mblocks; } -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 18:32:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9FF23DA86 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:32:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K26V12yCz418Z for ; 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Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:32:15 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2fl7-000Azv-H7 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:32:13 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:32:13 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200214183213.bae3457e144eda27659e5f22@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <2011372779.118117269.1581701700318.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <2011372779.118117269.1581701700318.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K26V12yCz418Z X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=iUQMOinn; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.88 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.989,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (-0.30), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.59), asn: 7381(0.29), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:32:19 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:35:00 -0700 (MST) Dale Scott wrote: > A story I heard recently concerned a consultant, who wanted to use a > particular piece of technology because the consultant knew he could > produce a superior solution. However, the consultant realized that once > he was gone, the technology would be as if magic to the company, and the > solution would over time become less understood and maintainable, and so > the consultant used more familiar "old-school" technology because > long-term it would be better for the client. Food for thought.... ;-) That is a consultant who earned their fee. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 18:53:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D293223E20B; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:53:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K2Zd6cycz42LC; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:53:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id c16so11639843ioh.6; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:53:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vZ/ubhiGdKdSnRVTGLIByDHn1oL9tWUAuOn/YogBgss=; b=dwDydHpMGKX316jt+wzLJRUL5PeDGk4qXBY0Q0dlcrR1DC1Op/JUm0vxe8fU6ST8f2 Kk+u73rqKeCr6sorU9mlp34MwohkPbmda/7ttThAhZ4I2haGV/jbLblWmwr3qN/xTUg+ i4/fsdn5PnzX6QAPPN9n3mEdMwY8/lcv2He6DdfdK6cUCTnu2oDPXWVVYH+Or1sbkpSz xOzoYLHGCdevzcx9AQUovxDDEjCAFd7edRGKSLaUv6P6O5rNKjF/2mVqPO9Mz16W/ZEh G2xZVQmvzC6mYC8YzBmAzXkWG53MzpqH1+d/iyfoODcEmFLGxEw1dxmdfWGXuSjL54mL z3fw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vZ/ubhiGdKdSnRVTGLIByDHn1oL9tWUAuOn/YogBgss=; b=OHyBBI907PSUNfckir18dx1jdmrnozXMCxXoT2XSvZe6xt025/y7MHdhaioJK/TUtl SsZ6Kn9AmuPzPctdG3gx2oZyVhHebKRK/WxCBod1PpuPkBivML5k2A7nPQBukQCJTm2D dSje0L1frFNlyCuhuJ6gn1Gz7iL9i7gTsQGEOBaoSIMQILLCI1BC8cjIkZ9vFyLb8ZZ+ l5/7wVksZKJwbN9YOi/z5qEbBo65ZdxEJ/yHT4r3T1cMoF/3ZRwR+QI+XRGnQKgX7sHd EjRHxyStAPthKIji1+iLitiAQecAfh6UOiWuxH+5JGIMQVrY0QlhpvqokAD7IoDa1Ssf 95OA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXNX4WgdgVmlPgfSEx68U62H2xP9cqC5dQ3rRrsRGKDIXbeCm4T SLELh6HLn9Dxu45svER+PwWU+Zme X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyA0wJq3RnxXjBbv3TKUO91GhdGNek/bOG9n7XV73phALX2Ov36h1RpTuSwo/jc8tIdxQy8tA== X-Received: by 2002:a5e:aa0e:: with SMTP id s14mr3559687ioe.261.1581706392286; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.10.8] (cpe-65-25-53-210.neo.res.rr.com. [65.25.53.210]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r14sm2257949ilg.59.2020.02.14.10.53.11 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:53:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5E46EC97.5080609@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:53:11 -0500 From: Ernie Luzar User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" , jail@freebsd.org Subject: jails with quota Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K2Zd6cycz42LC X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=dwDydHpM; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luzar722@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luzar722@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[210.53.25.65.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.66), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-1.90), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[d.2.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:53:17 -0000 Looked all over and only found small blurb in jail(8) manpage that really says next to nothing. I created /usr/jails/fulljail by un-compressing the downloaded base.txz file and then copying the hosts localtime file and resolv.conf file to the fulljail. This fulljail starts and stops with out problems. I have added a user called daddy to this jail. On the host I added quota_enable="YES" and check_quotas="YES" to the hosts rc.conf file. Also added userquota option to the hosts /etc/fstab file and rebooted the host. The quota commands repquota -ah, quota -h bob, and edquota -uh bob all work on the host. But after starting the fulljail with the allow.quotas option in jail.config and entering the root console I get this edquota -uh daddy message "NO quotas on any filesystem repquota -ah gives nothing quota -h daddy message Disk quotas for user daddy (uid1001): none I see that quota had bug fixed in 12.0 that is now in 12.1 release that I am running on my host. Did that fix screw up jail quotas? Does the /etc/fstab file in fulljail need a entry? If so what should it look like. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 18:54:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A439823E3DE for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:54:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic301-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic301-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K2cJ10MJz42Sq for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:54:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: parlYN8VM1nflRseBOnEZQjX9GEr5aLRhdNiEvBBboQWxrvh2L5W6f8xw11Za.. u_NqF_9Hja6eVbv7xKsrlE7_Wa8XsqpVLngklhmZjBml9s7mD37jIdbMhqPUDlA7760rlmpvLmZ3 y_jp2KkKRWH3pfQjj.f2IXuqWU69t1SpbIy3RwVuf6xgYUuwUhz9iaB2tYA1598pUONDUNI.ZUNn 0_8QSq7G9tF.5rRZrnFh8MmdhNC5sgcyqSKHUCgoM59NfQ5eQixhOf4l1DQ5YN2Scg2p6ZMXwoDb OFYErCSvyeqqtvr5_FGVxmFLVBbhBV_scOqS_NpvArIIWCmWLf6kPnRyUfWdUjC6Gc0JM84mNfgG LpfjtuvGJVKp6Mbv86fLJsCNH11IChULo5ysWjNPdO8cpJCsQUwFL_KgpvGt.76DZPrlnGloeBhu 0ZpCVE0WJKBw5Ro3LiSohwCsMAHVzHmk7OD.wxGNc6pqAQdMc7Kod62E0IqgAlzu_EV8hh91lW_. mA_5nrvnRlZHNfcjD5Zrx7DlRjrRSL0aBELLzxNei62oKBRloFZi_wQNid3IWMqcB3SKjXvVkll7 kezR1ACwV1CQuAUjfNG6fE690dUeTZrn1Ea.YPBJ_CdWa6dqKDZ6bRISRigQd4yByEuW8ebls1PO 8OVXcx1o2PQIjS7PCCh3vnsFoj7Y8rF8rK1pqn0P4cwzt6PD3WhWHzhj4tWPnwDd_EV6PuYbqMME 0b4AQOt_mjIl.1uh7QHMYKEy.MldlNxeuLFeK3YqV7Xfsh5L50lLzJD40OrTYZ1i.ufpFPcn2tPt Wwv1o9B.Jk7Sz3nflJqqA0lP1PiTjzLiGvX4llSZ7pgQX1IZy5fpxkVKJ_fBREcDmfBw8t6reCPI fskKbZOgE7obaXrqEGfk5HaTH.9wehY11B7JCs9VMiuItAnspqLXdPSZcgGDo06y02TZZeASn.mC Sgp5w4ck8uvxy1XtmDWztjaWRIhKPmnBJMw1LRd8c4KC8d.ZFhg31_4ph6TkoanYPBoer_93Qdq0 T6Ek_akK93mJaWQsC61QSYdqlDE2Su8CEIBdZoulkolEEJYhBh8d7buk3x.QTNDF.FuH46JY_Pv0 _9pSsQodOWH.KMKcMV7zoaCGsIQhA74j91Aw9.yx8mS54Pa8ymxn.P9xSbItStI1AgCSEhtREnc6 DnK.nzfAU8o_Ytk4xJgTRluhT1j0LqJz8gbO281_bbSBnncCGCHlsENosiUKNuj6HdW3dgMv8GgN 9jjC04VUAfkZsV9YG5g6vr6ATU_YcqV2i7NTMLTMuDVRaKRhvgTd_65wLxe6VbDEs3e0FvKbwgwU gVEUnfjYfq8hbl5xGkbhBaJlwxlnqAdbSEqbp8t7tDNk_anzpqCGV9K_hzzq8R3Lb3g.YR50uH7E jv6boPMOgbkUa Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:54:37 +0000 Received: by smtp411.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 006f4e98b6bfe90fa812041df8493a03; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:54:31 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:54:30 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K2cJ10MJz42Sq X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.57)[-0.568,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.69)[-0.685,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[99.176.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.99), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.17), asn: 34010(1.71), country: GB(-0.08)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[99.176.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:54:41 -0000 Hi, what is better, a doorbell, a car or a watering can? It's not the best analogy, since regarding operating systems the answer not only depends on the use case, but also on the skills of the user. On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:03:06 -0600, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >Add to that binary logs "Tip: While the journal is stored in a binary format, the content of stored messages is not modified. This means it is viewable with strings, for example for recovery in an environment which does not have systemd installed, e.g.: $ strings /mnt/arch/var/log/journal/af4967d77fba44c6b093d0e9862f6ddd/system.journal | grep -i message " - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Journal Regards, Ralf From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 19:01:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8712023E868 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:01:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48K2mC5TjMz42sG for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:01:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F257E4E6C3; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:01:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:01:30 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K2mC5TjMz42sG X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.963,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.969,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.14)[ip: (0.39), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.20), asn: 160(0.16), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:01:32 -0000 On 2020-02-14 12:54, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > Hi, > > what is better, a doorbell, a car or a watering can? > It's not the best analogy, since regarding operating systems the answer > not only depends on the use case, but also on the skills of the user. > > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:03:06 -0600, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> Add to that binary logs > > "Tip: While the journal is stored in a binary format, the content of > stored messages is not modified. This means it is viewable with > strings, for example for recovery in an environment which does not have > systemd installed, e.g.: > > $ strings /mnt/arch/var/log/journal/af4967d77fba44c6b093d0e9862f6ddd/system.journal | grep -i message > " - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Journal Thanks for the tip Ralf! As always, your brilliance brings me, lazy person, right to what I need without learning new everchanging commands ;-) This (using strings here) reminds me a comedy clip about machintosh: "sometimes you need to trick mac into doing what you actually want him to do" ;-) > > Regards, > Ralf > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 19:31:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5EE23F39C for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:31:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic305-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic305-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K3R41xsBz44lB for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:31:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: .Bqnl_wVM1lPD7IAzPh6lwBgwHvj2qBDJL2.Ivv84dJQh4bsd_5Xv.q_Uk6Vsgr oxALj5E5YY4UvGlktdGKTpyJA7FF5937ZG7FD5Unyi5qaifabXaw20jyZIbgP.aIQhyFs8m1Vpvp Mg5Qb6d5COABPHEWYuPgssBu5jA7mnumwUH08tnHBFF5tPtqbfPVJ5GPAqxjkHvlNqKyYiiFzPQx ZDbPIFjH6mgOG9UcDCbPGRq.mMIwEeWU6Fqlcc1a8_Eb8_5IUNGiD40TPiak.MPXHLM8iibRnBgJ tXcUWkl3SM0UigSWNjg.ts.NmhAiCvgBn.13Yn1DTPXCUfK1pSguNAlxkq37URWlUp_9HkQ_qREn dUWxQYeMTVJ2yOtfIwR0NMLV4dHID6gqpVITHALC1p5P6jtGePxdzIH91n_TmWUTAVpDwIEnYqBJ vsq6VDSZAVw2npnqAPLj5QLKxYF.fJCcKK1iE3Gm.zJ9UX_1IL02F4Y3jkr_yYZAwy78kuDH2B75 TEB11QDfVknoL4ZLVueWdZRRG9VHGHxCNQ3kPRE4.A1DbEXGBJEmQD6Q86uJKUkb39l_3pyB8O7O Lav3ixn.myOkN_RCemtfA3Ofv2hb6Tby8uyAJFis8bKZFlg3ksm971ElL41vjJxmhKhMPBlpm4VO jHJ6PUSGmI0vVn.PyPELSKnKtWkFw8igHy46tuVocBxoFptvMqPFInRtrpa5X8jqYUlIynX9hHgc ggq9OzqBjS2V5dLqZKTO_k7qiRMS1sejYDYmnO0LX.g3dNhuKIMfY0YNEEaR5LXni09GYsc8AytF pFg4nYGzFpQqeexhMWVSADGRmG.485CAqwBVQi_O8tK2X0C7OXn5DsW9QhkdCgl842uHOeIg7EGh 2qEBytOdFTK9.2USKOWUdx_jBlu2bTm7mFUFz.8hJwSl6WFlikhWZ81PI6w4MjjxMgZws01Fywzd U.OM2ytc3NrfHmGaVX5wWe3Z8u7DyhpFH6OPrwacJ3.JpnNybCotCF8uD_1mAswe3TpTK8rEJeH. e9g0zPFy5pWpWVG4OKRb8qSXccZb1BybxFG3jclhaNeMeAgMokMboDzC74dXf7ODhfaXN77iMvpV EtUzfShOIcIKMNk4CFsZnPbN38wtI_FJYEigCJrq9nd6RAvMonBS1TclJups8pmr.PG9UUbIYD5y PnzF9D2eiVQUV.9clpWzNZgReVl0LTiC98OVNn_HftTcJYld2P4JJMTcACUpLDsEoQtDQVUS0cIW Ft9.ob72xfn6_70vFZlQDyrRy4bEp1rmQAqL4DRLe1joXNM9l1GtHoTwATkPjHq84FukZz48BfTH LS13ngmEFwrbZnkMKqGHIr2zNwiPGdDbPRt4HN6rui6J9NI8o.GucG24WKM6RxxE5uSISZkJcFl6 t9.U8.7e6OVh_EA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:31:40 +0000 Received: by smtp431.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 7b9587bd5f1c9eb3c861927c663865e7; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:31:35 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:31:34 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K3R41xsBz44lB X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.48 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.45)[-0.449,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[82.177.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.54)[-0.538,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[82.177.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.30), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.71), country: GB(-0.08)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:31:45 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:01:30 -0600, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >On 2020-02-14 12:54, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >> Hi, >> >> what is better, a doorbell, a car or a watering can? >> It's not the best analogy, since regarding operating systems the >> answer not only depends on the use case, but also on the skills of >> the user. >> >> On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:03:06 -0600, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >>> Add to that binary logs >> >> "Tip: While the journal is stored in a binary format, the content of >> stored messages is not modified. This means it is viewable with >> strings, for example for recovery in an environment which does not >> have systemd installed, e.g.: >> >> $ strings >> /mnt/arch/var/log/journal/af4967d77fba44c6b093d0e9862f6ddd/system.journal >> | grep -i message " - >> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Journal > >Thanks for the tip Ralf! As always, your brilliance brings me, lazy >person, right to what I need without learning new everchanging >commands ;-) > >This (using strings here) reminds me a comedy clip about machintosh: >"sometimes you need to trick mac into doing what you actually want him >to do" ;-) IMO a real pitfall of systemd are race conditions during startup. It's not an issue for those of us, who run a machine 24/7. Another PITA on Linux machines are drop directories, overriding sane configs, providing everything in one place. IOW a user might rely on /etc/foo.conf , but an update despotic installs /etc/foo.d/10-bar.conf and /etc/foo.d/20-bra.conf overriding all the values chosen for bar and bra by the admin, stored in /etc/foo.conf . An update never ever would replace /etc/foo.conf . On Arch Linux it would be stored as /etc/foo.conf.pacnew , almost all Linux distros provide such a solution, but the admin is screwed, if an update does add a file to /etc/foo.d/ . From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 19:36:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727A623F9A0 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl) Received: from mailout4.ceti.pl (mailout6.ceti.pl [62.121.128.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K3Xq0wFWz45ZG for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:36:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl) Received: from tau1.ceti.pl (tau.ceti.pl [62.121.128.11]) by mailout4.ceti.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1193781300; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:36:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by tau1.ceti.pl (Postfix, from userid 3727) id 25620960AB8; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:36:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:36:35 +0100 From: Tomasz Rola To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Steven Malone Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214193634.GA20932@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K3Xq0wFWz45ZG X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl has no SPF policy when checking 62.121.128.46) smtp.mailfrom=rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[ceti.pl]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.63)[0.628,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.88)[0.879,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[rtomek@ceti.pl,rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15541, ipnet:62.121.128.0/20, country:PL]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[rtomek@ceti.pl,rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl]; IP_SCORE(0.19)[ipnet: 62.121.128.0/20(0.48), asn: 15541(0.39), country: PL(0.06)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:36:44 -0000 On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 09:19:50AM -0600, Steven Malone wrote: > Victor, > > While this may not be a technical response, I have had immensely better > experiences managing a FreeBSD server than a Linux one. The primary > difference in my experience has been around system upgrades. When > updating Linux I have had all sorts of applications start failing after > the a simple package update. I do not have this problem when updating > FreeBSD, it has been much more reliable for me. I have also seen similar > results from system upgrades, Linux upgrades have broken my system > countless times. I have never had a FreeBSD system completely tank after > an upgrade. I think when depicting flaws of Linux (innumerable, as with anything made by humans) you guys should be a bit more specific. There are few so called "flavours" of it, and the quality differs somehow between them. I have heard such things as above happened to somebody using Ubuntu in the past. And Ubuntu is derived from Debian. On the other hand, I spent time since 1997 using Debian exclusively and I do not recall having a catastrophic mess after upgrade. Usually, there was a difference between a process called update (say, 6.5->6.6, bugs repelled, programs stay in their old versions and behaviours) and upgrade (6.6->7.0, major version change, everything jumps forward in time to be mostly same programs that the rest of the world uses). The mess usually happened after upgrade, but the system always booted and I could iron out dark corners of old config files, which usually was enough to have it all going again. Nevertheless, I have learnt to have a bootable copy of unupgraded system on spare partition, just in case before I start doing upgrade - and indeed, sometimes I spent a week or two booting from one to the other. Not very often and the problems were multimedia related. However, I am not current with Debian experience anymore. When systemd moved in I decided to move out and stopped doing upgrades (I rely on manual upgrades right now, quite a fun). The final jump to alternative non Linux system has got huge delays, unfortunately. But I have already had bad thoughts even before this, when after one upgrade I had to spend a day hunting down strange, misbehaving daemons and nailing them in their coffins [1]. So systemd was just a straw that broke horse's back, not something ugly enough to make me run (but still ugly). I know there are plenty of people who consider s-d to be a huge step forward for humanity, so why not let them have it? I also know there are still some Linux flavours which do not use s-d but I expect them to disappear (I wish them good luck but the glacier cannot be disputed with). Anyway, you can now argue there are people who would rather use old Linux and slowly go into *BSD than use new Linux (which most probably is just fine, and I simply show signs of getting old and prejudiced against all those new kids who know better and want to "throw away Unix way", except that I expect to read yet another "systemd blowed me" kind of article in a future). Oh, and let's hope this post is not read as a flame bait :) [1] I can be called nuts, but there are just few things that drive me up the wall. One such thing is when bloody-something keeps writing to the disc every five seconds, and another when a bloody web browser is supposed to be idle but instead keeps cpu at 100% and keeps writing to the disc. I get literally crazy and obsessed upon seeing such case. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com ** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 19:41:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FD323FD40 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:41:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K3fY1RgHz46L4 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:41:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.39.141]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M89bP-1j6nJU2QmR-005MLy; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:41:36 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:41:35 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:hjw9mnexZWyyOLRdp1TcDfUnPi738zPfp/U+xz+yjTGxQcNxZhx jNYa9K7ai7KRHIw4Q9adMmmpTvuWn2KYJaYroYcRnLimXCLx7PeV0RlTxygtWbLFfBW7sE7 Pa733aUKVf5AL45wscBGtGsGUqGPtFi5c9fGI75CeF3YCs1QI7aOgFDXL1XWy89JMVmCQrg lX6nPAc/vXBcoiJiJSmjA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:1A9/OeAiGwQ=:b273dfLHg3s8DylqiOdiP6 8WewQ/43rRukOrtpRMxSkGnSNz9UbR+o7vpXbulf9bcq3/ijZETNgeU5No3OP/HSW6EXA5dKE gY/1oPKvcRjpdW2BZky7W7pFfjeuI99iW4YqgJkota+xrd7Ll7JXKldrTl+/nSZWoKsDYB5gj XQzEvle9V0nKSzPf9M88Fw57LQaTbIpoSlPI61RJRhRY0vsKNeGi8elAOaNBWlQtLYKgYz4zv ionTSQBxjxvCHKLjoepUb4+5eDBF25Ml3S12NYFRpVAO7C3F/tKtTIfM3/jcailLJy8qB4V+B 8tFL2tnu2z4seK9ZWGVXTOQfJDswzDH3fuhAZX88De/yTuNQJ4FDKsDdonRox2mI66IfXyESW daK2gmpvhVKcaiUfMWIzt/qwsLxDTvYxXYYOnuc0c9pNNcuclhi28KZjpdPZPEd7qWJPmsj0M H3P15yqvW7ShbCvR1RKU/2FONzGLqiGIFPpj8PmpyzJHcuEiirq0Fqr3/aAaqE85sxduqQENI QmsG82u0EK2sSgujClPgbDz4RUYfa2TTiMrq4BBRLBtzfMy2IXoXNkl44hrk8TRtChkE1WVIN W7VLfRIvgIyu68kmXFVQk4UAKZZCtu27ristc6S0cfPSlG183abFyAV6Aixz5FY1KBbgrwViu 0LxIXO0MYmGRFjR88DYHYM28XuPkxry3oax66zoKw7duQgRtTGc4uZGHIARLNerLWIuck/sc1 NxHxaFnj/kmZV1Nt62yoFH1qeuELY7M5SGYoHu+PbHc6+ARhUnZF/CPzaKhHnUDRvzMPg+4fi EEf9IgSmaeANT4dBwviOxY6efqIh0ykZwzDVbVlYdPgno+/GFxh6/8wN4ekT6Oe/bRmNd/R X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K3fY1RgHz46L4 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.82 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[141.39.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.97)[0.966,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.999,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[133.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.46)[ip: (1.21), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.11), asn: 8560(2.21), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:41:42 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:31:34 +0100, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > Another PITA on Linux machines are drop directories, overriding sane > configs, providing everything in one place. Or, multiple configuration files which look as if they have the same purpose, but if you change some of them, or all of them, nothing has an effect. Sometimes, files will be over- written, and at other times, they will simply be ignored. Additionally, there's systemd-homed to re-invent home directories. I'm not sure if there will be systemd-linuxd and systemd-kerneld to re-invent everything else. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 20:07:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655F0240D85 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:07:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at50-3.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at50-3.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K4Dc3b83z4BpF for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:07:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at50.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1j2hFV-0000wN-DB for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:07:41 +0100 Received: from t61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id 2k7h2200G4YLlkt0Bk7hDl; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:07:41 +0100 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=842wBEKypVKM_5dQUykA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:08:43 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202002142108.43613.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K4Dc3b83z4BpF X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.138 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.986,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 62.179.0.0/17(1.28), asn: 6830(3.71), country: AT(-0.10)]; FORGED_MUA_KMAIL_MSGID(3.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[138.121.179.62.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:07:45 -0000 Anno domini 2020 Fri, 14 Feb 20:41:35 +0100 Polytropon scripsit: > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:31:34 +0100, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > Another PITA on Linux machines are drop directories, overriding sane > > configs, providing everything in one place. > > Or, multiple configuration files which look as if they have > the same purpose, but if you change some of them, or all of > them, nothing has an effect. Sometimes, files will be over- > written, and at other times, they will simply be ignored. > > Additionally, there's systemd-homed to re-invent home directories. > I'm not sure if there will be systemd-linuxd and systemd-kerneld > to re-invent everything else. ;-) > > > There is a systemd-timesyncd that breaks the linear flow of time. It breaks LinuxCNC, too, which a quite "funny". Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 20:23:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE2AA2412DA for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:23:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K4bF5KWqz4CXG for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:23:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:23:50 -0700 References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <1eb61cba-5e28-e8ea-c418-a06f0f94ec86@kicp.uchicago.edu> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <1eb61cba-5e28-e8ea-c418-a06f0f94ec86@kicp.uchicago.edu> Message-Id: <1F2DC40A-8C43-43DF-9168-661FDEC32989@kreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K4bF5KWqz4CXG X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.933,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.913,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.07)[ip: (-0.25), ipnet: 65.112.0.0/12(-0.00), asn: 209(-0.03), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[42.55.121.65.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:23:54 -0000 On 14 Feb 2020, at 09:00, Valeri Galtsev = wrote: > In my book docker is really a disadvantage, not advantage, compared to = FreeBSD jails Dicker has the advantage of convenience and ease of installing/removing = dockers, but you trade that for not only poor security, but another = application layer between you and the service which itself has had = numerous security issues. I use docker for things that are not very important on machines that are = (relatively) unimportant. I would never use it on something like a mail = server or web server that has other people=E2=80=99s data on it. --=20 "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" "Umm.. I think so Bigbrainy-fishface-stovepipe-wiggleroom-Arlene, but if you get a long little doggy wouldn't you just call it a Dachshund?=E2=80=9D From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 20:48:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB0E241DC7 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:48:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K57v6rQwz4Dnf for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:48:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581713324; x=1584305324; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=iunSgQf7yJLNyZIJCBH3pR4zWpi0izpeyCYW1uvLMeY=; b=p28kpcDVQsr7o6/dfjtQZ0LRwtL7krYVbUEvBUBSVmFZC3jOBScT811POnWWEctCkXCdUIl1X8eRO3g2TA4tSZwlMsVU21mgIvEvd/lM7FJNwsaOyWKO3rjez2xGN/b1akeWb0AoF8Q0i/CMVVb8PFy2/VcXW8RPEc29rClFPB4= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDNhMTJmZC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.13]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:48:40 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:48:40 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2ht8-000BPR-I2 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:48:38 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:48:38 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K57v6rQwz4Dnf X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=p28kpcDV; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.29), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.58), asn: 7381(0.29), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:48:45 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:16:00 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: > For example, the absence of Docker (or analogous technology) for FreeBSD > is a huge disadvantage. We need to name really superiour features to > make up for this shortage. pkg search docker shows a lot of packages including: docker-18.09.5_1 Open-source application container engine docker-compose-1.24.0_1 Define and run multi-container applications with Docker Looks like we have docker - but IMHO jails are better lightweight containers with a *much* longer track record and there's bhyve for full blown virtualisation. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 20:49:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF1A241F3A for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:49:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic301-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic301-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K58s1pC6z4Dwk for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:49:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: GRRhBhgVM1m0GXykXMP7yh5eiDCC1WMxZuL8vQ.ucZcTfYfoMR.zAZM0J2ybatu PoSZcyb2YCAZ8ZOSSGiuENSiwiPiKQKlY9lG5ZUcjPuyeo_pAHvHmmy5KcIKXsyZ7TV8v7KuCmMP YvV.K2pAz7nXV2f1VDKQUmhOiw5vE.VV745mM.X8zemo5xLbndhlVqCE8n3LGzSTYtcguYKF5R5a AfVSGRh6Wtvv9sMKlYWtZ3Gyv4VrYZS3MR3TaBZFvkvJDNdNKet3WwSAvYhD113TZ8fcULfaicGf vf2PIP97QXLSpZIJoPaeg73qKdcrI6kVWzTn4tPeUm6Hj1xXxKP4CE63xpKk9eVamCf.rcmaGsBn T.8L2Ybopm_d92Zr68zXwwG_Lti6pCgEMT97pWjO2iWpjOtmwuxxicAC.loK3bUjFEhZ3raLBQFR toe9ZZlf2KR5ACWRq.8.tUCDqOmMfyHEjL0XEyIwrnqUVEyS3GLI_BV7OycpJX2h9shh7L47t6Vk SGxuQqBwS6krNQRHnBq57EsorASMMQj7YqUSz53H1c5eGutZcvMPeUqCf_BCZ.n5HRNHfalA6KY4 kGTWLJK2qLvTonkPjkTvSk6hvWyvtEol2jVw9BLlaKT9uVGx8nvBuygK2B.JtsgIwBmlq6yKCsTH sDUEy0RyWuqoFI4LsCesY6hWnugB6f6kIq5CMpl.DeknVY3.fvEjDifkdzlQ7zca5SAv65BXIORZ ztKhAT8maZXWbWd6vOPtOD9sOnrwC_EPvbty9fa3X09d931Y3xNg5X2wrRWU0ZWGkhp5qOMxFZn9 yeNFE.i0UepuhPLe9dn8NA0U9awnn0c4e9MiMwqEj.G28xrG2etqn2A9ADm3BZrCkXVCdDTnHXzG 1BJ6hP7mcStLGTdAceZJXBWNwEkkeXDMiIu9QEKdUZk6MiDtrKoXEdmEPKwBy2WQusfs5Ov2N0aT qih2MB62qqlsao.szhYvKYjLwIJ4NRR_LtGfeeQiyWuPL8Ammb4hti7moWYDZvIHCREkRaShUmtg 4JnVV4lzwRYvEg..1oqRPChjLoEYE_wAVjwlo0KH38BQjn7GS4phXJYwouT1oU1ioczSgxJF0KGz .1C9OJ3GaMyK5fU2HuujMz5.hfEkyRMs4Z3tsEulG9V9xNYqbdZK1EQh0rJwuFdmuGsb1sGWrYXI ElspH6xO51K9iIKUtUj3vA5DSNjHrPPtBe2sq6KgKFkhBHIMwMhSzAu8pf2LW1x9kPwbjkhyJ0TV U3.aBxY8ZQAGDxiQ_gGtubexudqEfCuf.A3Nxmf_C4Eg60SlNstC8cdGjyZSW3krNRQO8jIILMvT EIyjCTQPW9DMGqiCoVGEbHsVnmThgJcBcmJeQNCNqXYt_kYXgMrlPEar.pMp3p_Fy9Sr9W5dZmlx 8PQ8Is0NuH0wT8A-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:49:30 +0000 Received: by smtp425.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b5e8dbd12ff57680f66521d915c57549; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:49:25 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:49:24 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214214924.0f6f721a@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: <202002142108.43613.dr.klepp@gmx.at> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <202002142108.43613.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K58s1pC6z4Dwk X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.92 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.62)[-0.618,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.81)[-0.811,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[99.176.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[99.176.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.92), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.71), country: GB(-0.08)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 20:49:34 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:08:43 +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >There is a systemd-timesyncd that breaks the linear flow of time. It >breaks LinuxCNC, too, which a quite "funny". Actually the main reason for me to prefer Linux over FreeBSD is real-time scheduling. I'm not using a CNC machine, but I'm doing real-time audio processing. AFAIK in that domain Linux does outshine FreeBSD. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 21:02:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395C32425AA for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:02:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K5Rt2y9pz4Fjl for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:02:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4633832B0D; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:02:33 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RDJuJcTm0qs4; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 09D0732B04; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:02:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:02:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux From: "James B. Byrne" To: "Alejandro Imass" Cc: "FreeBSD Questions" Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K5Rt2y9pz4Fjl X-Spamd-Bar: -------- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.4.1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[32.71.185.216.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.4.2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA]; IP_SCORE(-3.77)[ip: (-9.90), ipnet: 216.185.64.0/20(-4.93), asn: 12021(-3.95), country: CA(-0.09)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:02:35 -0000 On Fri, February 14, 2020 11:27, Alejandro Imass wrote: > IMHO, BSD could invest in taking projects like EzJail (plus ZFS) to make > this functionality native and EASY, provide an images database and the > infrastructure to provide a NATIVE, bare metal equivalent to Docker + > Terraform. In other words, FreeBSD and other BSD projects could offer > NATIVE and modern CI/CD and IaaS pipelines on bare metal. > > Just food for thought. > 1. Presently, the dominant philosophy in FreeBDS is to remove things from core into ports; and not the other way around. 2. Having used both ezjail and iocage extensively my choice would be iocage over ezjail. 3. munch...munch...munch -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 21:57:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8092D243B19 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:57:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K6ft498Jz4KCn for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:57:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:57:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 13:57:04 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K6ft498Jz4KCn X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.75 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.66)[ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.65), asn: 6939(-3.58), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:57:11 -0000 On 2020-02-14 04:16, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? > > Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux has > ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS > implementation. > > What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer > FreeBSD for new installations? I see the cultural and historical differences between BSD distributions and Linux distributions as causes, and the technological differences as an effect. When measured according to some key qualities identified by Brooks [1], I would give the BSD's a better score than the Linux's: - Programming Systems Product - Conceptual Integrity In a commercial environment, the decision should be based upon total cost of ownership (TCO). Licensing may be a pass/fail criterion for options to consider, depending upon application (e.g. embedded). You should consider more than two FOSS alternatives, and you should include the hardware/ virtualization/ cloud dimension. Your question is one that could challenge a CIO. A thorough answer backed by objective data will require effort and expense. David [1] https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Brooks-Mythical-Man-Month-The-Essays-on-Software-Engineering-Anniversary-Edition-2nd-Edition/PGM172844.html From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 22:30:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19573244902 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:30:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic307-10.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-10.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K7PG5lNpz4Lsc for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:30:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: agHVg30VM1kHS.a57bTLJpCZN_b1.EfSvz2aP0M7e9twbLfpup.3yrk4nNSpa3z 3NYHJ9708O9xaxer.CD6eb3svtM50oz6K6xn8CA..MIrfVDDp2O.4JPhWPgjS9JSjYfj5KuCp7pC _WYcVVLSLjkJRO3oD9EJRQjTStOvDfhxKbERpSxoNxwqNwKV78c6VGeTyQLpMaVobfd7f7NpccPZ 8Kt53pfaJJ_wvdh6IEurBqO1hTmfEn_XtmLdmt4zx101q0VaQ9Vqwof7tTYCT8TsI.4DNkvthO1G LG65QXYTfguCYFSTpux3JJqE3wF0H3Cr2CnwPsk2_wyJOJKj9mjVo5FIrtPGneXhiMToGleq3b4Z j8q.eGp8fcQV6KxhqMkpKPGnxMRsDR89wFxLtqIgMMrAEQ1JaTHrszQvIu6tSS.uVpEX8gDCxE4c cdQ5MurWsFKw923ci9tDpXQ4CU4tURwhbKJB45yg6ahqBkkvlVDzGB5Iw8CAsqm33dv44NMoN22S yxzjTQiKIQ5oenTW4N76g0ypRwQr_8LZHPueWd9Nrata_cTGz6Zxf3tJTs4wS8jlN.F_vbDG5rWm jUnEKREmQzC0_W0q3Pbfwt4ifCI8prGsLMyp11uJ4PiX898wbWtf0NukuPupXPHYztk0XXD_.tOX qXJryVTJ.SKUEegEMWZjQKLn2PbyFdgWjoHakKtyJRUNrO0C_OxKsAFQgM88x.SJSsCk0s8Pi7_n NHql7zM99CdI6qVkj1NIvpdOrJssnYCaEvMcEzsqfP8BRv5QEK7OXJvqGjKDrM85bEh5WiC.VpO7 vZXccjDnR6HJpiHiLlqajOzK2uY6xnTBkTMF2tjJBd8XWG9zGBxkGXKeYFQpMRlQBjGMWMsAxXKN 4Wi.KFtVYTA6zPmMcEz.8874asNd9EVHze4XbsHftdZ6I60iuc1hAm5jpQJ9s_iSnnOnC2eK4ZDg khDEGRPNPC4BL7M_.T_WPrkAygcSkJpWMzLUgKeZsy2dpBBVOvb3EzKGpOx9sy3FpYx.Yslg8k4t Dr6cgSr71XwpsKAs4MkHOP3kw9jIfR1nhGSFPHmG8xmKpLdiNS0attTjcJvP2alQfKaIXHkhDbVL LDVpCkEozbGSd9C5jpJLA8Ee6E4ZEp4wMNlBG_MihpTItrNw6vDuHOSLKtthz0d7k1oDDQD1tKpC gGSzxfscb4n11yN5CmAx49lvbwwiFc9RUypOmZFoTufa0SRqwxaMRSfInGtYKvGKyWY6YTjNidxD U6tXe3JnfUyiErI6Y1epP8JmspzTGJnM4Qllz9883tvVwJj2JiBZGuMAodOF_c15Z08JIizxf4EY EX534IsVl_yAxeYRllKIwg3tTqI2gWDP8DH644FJy7PF776W677zIp7lLqOx9SL0WqLg- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:30:25 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:30:23 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Victor Sudakov , Alejandro Imass Cc: FreeBSD Questions Message-ID: <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:73.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/73.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K7PG5lNpz4Lsc X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.07 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.38)[-0.380,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[33.190.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.45)[0.453,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.45), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:30:28 -0000 Hi, If you're trying to convince management, I'd suggest researching who has ba= sed their products on FreeBSD....List of products based on FreeBSD |=20 |=20 | |=20 List of products based on FreeBSD | | | The 'Unknown Giant' is an apropos tagline.=C2=A0 People don't know what's r= unning under the hood.=C2=A0 Many commercial products steer entirely clear = of GPL licensed FOSS due to what it entails.=C2=A0 If you were to start dev= eloping a product on a BSD licensed product, there's very little issues wit= h future support of it or releasing you proprietary tweaks of you product.= =C2=A0 No such thing with GPL.=C2=A0 (ok... that's simplified but....) Longevity is another big one.=C2=A0 BSD has existed in some form since 1974= .=C2=A0 FreeBSD since 1994. Paul On Friday, February 14, 2020, 11:27:50 AM EST, Alejandro Imass wrote: =20 =20 On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 7:16 AM Victor Sudakov wrote: > What other features do we have to (persuade the management to) prefer > FreeBSD for new installations? > > Thing is that most of the industry is moving away from bare metal and into the cloud and in that sense Linux (particularly Ubuntu Server) is the defacto standard it seems. The reason I moved to FreeBSD like around 2006 was that Linux's virtual memory manager was not very good at that time and whenever you force Linux to swap it usually left the system unstable and required reboot. Whereas FreeBSD you push it to the max (99%+ of swap) and would always recover. And this was way back in FreeBSD 6 and I can only guess it's gotten better, whereas Linux probably is not worrying too much about this since most Linux servers today in AWS don't even have swap, and what for, since they act mostly as a POSIX API on top of multiple layers of virtualized shit. After we made the move, discovering EzJail was the killer feature for us. We were basically doing all the stuff people are doing nowadays with Docker and Terraform etc. We had these kind of flexible and powerful CI/CD pipelines with FreeBSD when these terms weren't even coined as such. That's why I laugh at my younger colleagues who think they are more advanced than what we were doing 14 years ago. And that's the issue with this industry is all the FADs and wheel reinvention. It's the same thing with languages for example. Perl 5 and plain ol C are probably still superior to anything out there today, and only now are we seeing some true advancement in the right direction (e.g. Rust, Go etc.). So if you ask me FreeBSD could probably focus away from this cloud FAD and continue to evolve it's very powerful features and target people that have not gave into this cloud bullshit, and to real sysadmins who are not afraid of taking responsibility instead of hiding behind AWS or Azure. Let them go down that path, and let us focus on reality and bare metal. IMHO, BSD could invest in taking projects like EzJail (plus ZFS) to make this functionality native and EASY, provide an images database and the infrastructure to provide a NATIVE, bare metal equivalent to Docker + Terraform. In other words, FreeBSD and other BSD projects could offer NATIVE and modern CI/CD and IaaS pipelines on bare metal. Just food for thought. Best, --=20 Alex _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Feb 14 22:31:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79EBB244B42 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:31:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl) Received: from mailout4.ceti.pl (mailout6.ceti.pl [62.121.128.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K7QP4t6Mz4M2M for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:31:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl) Received: from tau1.ceti.pl (tau.ceti.pl [62.121.128.11]) by mailout4.ceti.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E923781220 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:31:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by tau1.ceti.pl (Postfix, from userid 3727) id D84B2960AB8; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:31:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:31:22 +0100 From: Tomasz Rola To: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200214223122.GB20932@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K7QP4t6Mz4M2M X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl has no SPF policy when checking 62.121.128.46) smtp.mailfrom=rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[ceti.pl]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.39)[0.391,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.79)[0.787,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[rtomek@ceti.pl,rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15541, ipnet:62.121.128.0/20, country:PL]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[rtomek@ceti.pl,rtomek@tau1.ceti.pl]; IP_SCORE(0.18)[ipnet: 62.121.128.0/20(0.45), asn: 15541(0.36), country: PL(0.06)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:31:26 -0000 On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 07:54:30PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > Hi, > [...] > > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:03:06 -0600, Valeri Galtsev wrote: > >Add to that binary logs > > "Tip: While the journal is stored in a binary format, the content of > stored messages is not modified. This means it is viewable with > strings, for example for recovery in an environment which does not have > systemd installed, e.g.: > > $ strings /mnt/arch/var/log/journal/af4967d77fba44c6b093d0e9862f6ddd/system.journal | grep -i message > " - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd/Journal The choice of words suggests they were writing this tip with straight faces. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com ** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 00:12:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A1F9247CEA for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 00:12:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danmason@danmason.net) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48K9gK3H0nz4Tqf for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 00:12:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from danmason@danmason.net) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id d10so12591112ljl.9 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:12:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=danmason-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Grcpya9o+yWxc8MdrO/Er8FPXcRCA1WiPBqlcUgOxYY=; b=2S329pxvvq3rzPCx7xDFXSCK05vjGcRGc7T5jFh6yiN70KE6wbV1BAfu8lRQuv/Rzk VK7uZFjJDehRiyG7Uaxc2qBlvzxvwh57RRC0bCJRSE7fSkKBtqMv0gwaccP5E30woimT LXmdFUTT6QBzQkK2B/WDJb9sisY/Zx39dFg2u6ix/x3t3hfnKvvxFeit6ZHqnBo/4oaj MZE8H0906eBWoRB3q0jHIrmMFN3NPgLOOpYeJ+0EQowqZWR0uFd/t6cQGyvqHlRDNrab Yli49U5G/+Y/4nGozgrZmugpEfy+wxUqstuzj5o1cJqu8CC0GlXHDGvMxddUV5HiPFyG 56Cg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Grcpya9o+yWxc8MdrO/Er8FPXcRCA1WiPBqlcUgOxYY=; b=OkvzykcetyjT+760BRGK94j01mxjeDK3U1PO+Pc7iiD+WOXk8cLNkzruVcbnWO7xaM 8NEP5qYJqlbKPz6UIMUGPK9ZDA6RXfZj8yYLPI+MpGtIDD5jsVNaAKDFuD3er2ALeq3R 9xAzH47EhoABLfuvh3nwXsKVhO7GkaZtUO17reA8EMuU8sVcYtAKPAsnMFsEh1NH8VyK 5sXfmvrq6j6t1SZwqSsQbXG6tEiWTJKTqhKjcGZzcZO4ssXxq8kWs0BpVoQbY2KwxNvy IsaekoK0AKMRKcYO7NitYbzMUlkBRlsDnJ7LoNc842NJK9CwfnKOKxZ+nD6tX6/Nnomn F1uw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU/DzlT0lSMiItq9sxxQmR/2FiLMTAw7AkTcVm7ehBScTN67FsZ Q5N7aHJ0DkheDFYFvsLHpRaTh1FrEq44LyHGuPykY9Fa0+k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwmc2bo2MQeqJ1i56Vtd0nVqdeEZKMQe9T21ERD7g9JUVOzebxi4vf1D8AG7NrHqMy0EvxY/Du/3xTIqSv41Z0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:6815:: with SMTP id c21mr3186155lja.10.1581725563107; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:12:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dan Mason Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:12:32 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: syslogd logging format change from 11.2 to 11.3 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48K9gK3H0nz4Tqf X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=danmason-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=2S329pxv; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of danmason@danmason.net has no SPF policy when checking 2a00:1450:4864:20::22b) smtp.mailfrom=danmason@danmason.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.97 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[danmason-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[danmason.net]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[danmason-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[b.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-2.67)[ip: (-9.18), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.42), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 00:12:46 -0000 Does anyone know why the syslogd logging format was changed in 11.3? I upgraded a server today and was annoyed by some regex failures but also the loss of useful information. In 11.2 you get the remote address and the hostname that was provided by the logger. Feb 14 15:39:34 23.212.155.184 rpi-1 jemrf[569]: A90 67.244 fahrenheit In 11.3 you get only the remote address. Feb 14 15:44:47 23.212.155.184 jemrf[569]: A90 66.956 fahrenheit The syslogd(8) man page has a new flag available to swap between address and hostname, but there doesn't appear to be an option to have both. -H When logging remote messages use hostname from the message (if supplied) instead of using address from which the message was received. There was value in having both but I'm not sure about the value of removing one of them, especially changing the layout by default instead of adding a new flag for new behavior. Dan -- "per aspera ad astra" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 05:06:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FE1724DF91 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:06:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KJ9s0S3Fz3HCQ for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:06:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=EgJ4pOViddox7K7JTb5Qxop/NmG3iE7FFNqxXkmNnlU=; b=U5U7loLCG1u7AuLbbi4zOrhilP t0hynKfpqweeHGTTQ8fE5+MTqZ2hQMsE24M/ale/4skJimDUPnv8l1/x9YMGeLBneKlNb6C0ihAPT EdfwG+A4p7X4fslz2IXYoKq+/U1q0E/G57xTK1NNjVr/pa45QCnbYR3iHVypXf/nYaT0=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2peZ-0000Nf-A1 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:06:07 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:06:07 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215050607.GC82559@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <89a55b95-f8cb-caef-44ef-7c8f6a4f36b2@malikania.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oJ71EGRlYNjSvfq7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <89a55b95-f8cb-caef-44ef-7c8f6a4f36b2@malikania.fr> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KJ9s0S3Fz3HCQ X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=U5U7loLC; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.33)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.77), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:06:10 -0000 --oJ71EGRlYNjSvfq7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Demelier wrote: > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? >=20 > In short: >=20 > - Jails ; Linux has several implementations of what we call Jails (OpenVZ, Linux Containers, whatever). It also has Docker which beats jails. > - ZFS ; Linux has too (but see later). > - Simplicity (not always the case though). Type mount on a fresh FreeBSD = and > a fresh Linux and admire that. Also applies to initial processes ; That's true (aesthetically too) but these are the admin's personal problems. The admin is a subordinate person and must support whatever system is deemed better for production, performance, features etc. > - Documentation (not the best though, OpenBSD has the best doc out there) > but all BSD have the most well documented stuff ; RedHat's documentation was pretty good AFAIR (when I worked with RedHat 6). But this is a valid point, thank you. FreeBSD's handbook and other docs are very good (if dated in some places). > - pf ; I cannot compare pf with iptables for the lack of experience in the latter, but as a stateful firewall, pf kind of sucks because it a) cannot keep state above the transport layer and b) its very notion of state is kind of perverse. > - poudriere ; poudriere is part of the binary software packaging system. For the present I think Linux's binary packaging system (apt or yum) is still more advanced than ours. However, the separation of the "base system" and "packages" as seen in FreeBSD seems to me a great, unique advantage. Another point in FreeBSD's favour. > - src.conf, make.conf and easy world rebuild ; Very few need this nowadays at the time of cattle servers (as opposed to pet servers). > - LLVM instead of GCC. If it gives measurable advantages in productivity, performance or security, I'd be happy to learn more about that. [dd] >=20 > > Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux has > > ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS > > implementation. >=20 > Linux has unofficial ZFS support, it's not in the kernel and it's a real > mess. If this is really so, why is FreeBSD planning to migrate to Linux's ZFS implementation? --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --oJ71EGRlYNjSvfq7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR3w/AAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0QCUH/1TU4y/rt28ViAHWgHGmnNu6 A5As5iqeUqq+v9TYjXjef/IydqF8vN5L6fP2xmelrKL1XckJG+l2BxSwUWe6u8dL hIaIjdklfIvi1nJu60E3RFk4ksyL6mUlHoayuirQYXpYJskoqpTjgisO29ITqjrX Ity40QdxZC8RWoigpoENraG3g1uSZ7Zs6WDZRkShaLR+68aKOLjV6r6dRGCsDcYh yE0mQUqpjHpbwUsmZFWK2Dn8PmG8tqGetYT2/ceeiIXKbDsGwAgcqXud4wrLvN/f 7bWAzhMDO4NdvO/NHtidJBpQXlTWiMYFPBzkxf+jw4oq70ydJyKrzlghgdGRXoM= =tyt3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oJ71EGRlYNjSvfq7-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 05:26:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D0424E8BB for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:26:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KJd92sfgz3JF2 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:26:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=9JLyEmvrRiiS1V2iIZWJ7BcSrBcwMIksS6fNWyHueq4=; b=NzRWYKz0OMglR3+uU884BE0fdq mjCK/YsYvp7JEcIKi2bM9DcqloVlxGFSh7qOR7eLFq1qKKAQD5S8gqAyhQWQPtiyfczs47vZY+Muz OzRgsX3qKnwoh1yLvbiLqpYHzZEIr2/D0Hb7IeXY9tdeqI3Ff2ROVxbl+4Xgl/1l5BjQ=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2py8-0000Uo-4Q for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:26:20 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:26:20 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215052620.GA1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KJd92sfgz3JF2 X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=NzRWYKz0; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.33)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.78), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:26:22 -0000 --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 14:16, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > > Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 12:16, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > > > > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > > > > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern L= inux? > > > > > > Sorry, but I find this sort of a chalk vs cheese kind of comparison. > > > > Of course not. When deciding what to use in the next project, you have > > to advocate your choice in front of your superiors and colleagues, and > > your presentation should be well backed up with technical arguments. >=20 > I didn't really (and still don't) know the circumstances of your work > environment. Failing that, this is really a chalk vs cheese scenario. > I find both FreeBSD and Linux technically valid solutions (and I throw > NetBSD into the mix). One has to be pragmatic and evaluate solutions > against problems first. Advocating an OS over another one without > taking care of circumstances doesn't make good advocacy. Fine, let's apply your approach, it could yield interesting results. Can we find 3-4 real world scenarios where FreeBSD cannot be replaced by Linux without important negative technical and business consequences of said replacement? Other than a case of unacceptability of the GNU license for some legal reason, I cannot imagine such a scenario. Unfortunatly, I've seen lots of reverse cases where Linux cannot be replaced by FreeBSD. Docker and friends come to mind first. >=20 > (I'm not having a go at you. I'm just talking out of my experience.) Please keep on talking :-) --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR4D8AAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0UkIH/3hK/jPL77f+oOSrA9qchIqx RsGVPPp9a9EVs1hBkCGaXyrGfewz+0P9osobXHb+rQrsH7rLwLmJjATMm7Q0dXbA gaws2WP4FgpAX9ewjXniOTgmQFSa/io/G/wxNmD2rB46QphmV6RRObbSkPpmwJe6 PwoWvQHK1Mbh6Drx2bD7XockjdyYCBN46jUgFfqHBSY/6T2szoNO50jfHG6EyLAY pf4z1DeyEKTbxtlvbp9qtVeMmZb1QEtoamyA2vMVkh/a6wV5JpnZiDVYmJfZOR5K m0voAqSZSrOlUQ5oiwACfsK8pmcOc9vjtPL7+nqO7dqVAfzAeUK/dXDjV1By7as= =HtKn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 05:27:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B0DD24E9CA for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:27:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au [203.41.22.115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2560 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au", Issuer "Heuristic Systems Type 4 Host CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KJfR1wvWz3JL6 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:27:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from [10.0.5.3] (noddy.hs [10.0.5.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01F5QAIl046933 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:26:10 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=heuristicsystems.com.au; s=hsa; t=1581744370; x=1582349171; bh=KM7OYsojXHrCBTTjeyIQ2XCBPKltfhqfRtJS7/ZjmeM=; h=To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Date; b=ZDtDnZGrHDw6CeF2o/mNJqptQ7Ap2YtgqhCMQO7J+TGeCr6OX7YwrcWLiQIEV1gQK RZ/5VVaS24qig0yYweAf3GMp75bOxYBewhgxikyu63YR0sHByn1AEoWM4xGidYng3z zAXsOIVuVLf538/rpvr0mrxrkFfjLDNIKbFhkM8tR3sVn/5GXs7G6 X-Authentication-Warning: b3.hs: Host noddy.hs [10.0.5.3] claimed to be [10.0.5.3] To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Dewayne Geraghty Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Autocrypt: addr=dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQFNBFbOsVMBCgDfvi2PspSwoMEtFhF+aFLQKtzSA9f0dhDqthKHESdfbqxvKzhkBjvTJ5Na EgjKoKfoQTh5xuIv3HLhtDo5PeasPgQl9cPJeriqmqlS+UhY5BGYcMc1AO/TX0fsDaQz96ko at3RUW7sff/qPgVzSurk+DV5h866gPdn5Jdjohyl2F1rzRl6dnaAIyg49zlwZOnPHJGKye+B meqUCnPRglhkpNqXR3v1ulbWpfwhdNDvWT82qTG/qsFy/agjJvxwLuEBeoGc1dPWasO8Nztt 0dqf1Lpeg6SX2yJd76WVS4znt88OEbx/QL2PTJ/YtSepS68WaeKuARKPukkU+QXDep0gaLPl /TvU5xAZndNB3rYnpmoLb32pDHlrJbZUVyTMqc3J2EYM6aaizCpg4VEvVpVSqUT4D9MuREhu PeZ3SvEazQARAQABiQF3BB8BCAAhBQJWzrFTFwyAAWHe5yZt8RJL0vaU1MfDto5dBmeFAgcA AAoJEJVk7a1LmFrdy2QJ/AysDdFIMCRiaqEellprZQyEz5I/qZJEi6yRfXH813hhISFz6moh urZYLQ9SRdyMntT8W3Oc4pJc9fF9RSnY0SSQY/arZbrvsv6hKb1KtIK7P5mLS914J9buxEcJ SWeVuOuMA9aCNqg5uMu19pH5pXayORfbv+K7vFPiyllZ64ShUWZJL69vAc/TsbvMrGtG1M4P qyWCOKEiUT93zhVGQoA0aUYjMAZoyvozZCuieo4O8hkPgMz9lka+3bqQBSOB+qO4Iz+CZs0k Lw7Soga6bRqLK86DH99WjTA6Oj1r8Won+j4V9fnTDCVJoSyqdVHLySDv/lHaNu4Ia4AO4i2d shmLw03gOUvoWLJx5X01A5Zio4FvecnpZqQ0Wz5Ph9MiK3lwarfjonTOLeNGd5BpdnHu5VRC fJml7uAYeyKsD8C4tCpEZXdheW5lIEdlcmFnaHR5IDxkZXdheW5lQGFtZGcuZXRvd25zLm9y Zz6JAYAEEwEIACoFAlbOsVcCGyELCwoNCQgMBwsDAgQIFQoJCAsDAgEFFgMCAQACHgECF4AA CgkQlWTtrUuYWt0L1QoAjsCVsMXXMmShfBg8sEpL/Yhe+mPjxHZQveAaAFzcYjvvjgYQbh1y FpNko+CYlm7HryG2GpUUYMr4rvAySTg2yka+mqLMmPX72srPTEhS1zhrYjKKwV+wKBfwIliP sVW6DLHqu2ETonwZiWErMKGx5upUxljZo9bup+EfFlMVStTbETzJw1UGC0ypaAA1p0GniF0J iUyDY7VzLUl+F5zH+E64W7VR1K7Fjx7dtBZSWvtYKubrVrys/eCfwLQdLYqx0zZu4qDTuAHa Xhc018mIQpLJ+NBjTk5xPPCFmV2d8GFMPbX0qeSOKIvFCXsqC0fPYyYOGX4I5u2JTWUCPuRa GcQ0R8uUh0cURN/Ui4SDa0w0z1ZLySh1oT+WgMN1OskZ9dbWl3J8rxOvTi4FnjSGactYAawK LbMKq8w8ghnhTuE= Message-ID: <45c7debd-be20-2f43-df50-8e63c0182cd8@heuristicsystems.com.au> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:25:15 +1100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KJfR1wvWz3JL6 X-Spamd-Bar: ------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=heuristicsystems.com.au header.s=hsa header.b=ZDtDnZGr; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au designates 203.41.22.115 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-7.43 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[115.22.41.203.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.4.2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-3.23)[ip: (-9.73), ipnet: 203.40.0.0/13(-4.12), asn: 1221(-2.29), country: AU(0.01)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1221, ipnet:203.40.0.0/13, country:AU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FAKE_REPLY(1.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[heuristicsystems.com.au:s=hsa]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.4.2]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:27:28 -0000 Victor, I was responsible for security at a bank which had 700 Linux servers and phasing out ~100 older non-linux servers. I suggested using FreeBSD and the blanked-face response was why? At the end of my term, there was no FreeBSD boxes, because Linux had management's mindset. Look at any CIO magazine, and you'll understand the herding instinct. Why consider FreeBSD? Stability and predictability, largely due to FreeBSD engineering & release management practices. FreeBSD goes through multiple steps from idea inception to public release (ports are handled differently), as follows: - idea - peer technical review(s) - enters into "Current" for integrated testing, depending on complexity or potential impact the migration window going into stable will be intelligently adjusted (3d to a month) - enters into "Stable" for wider testing as there is increased confidence - enters beta testing - usually three rounds, wider community engagement - enters release candidate testing - usually 3 rounds - a release for us! So you can be pretty confident that things are going to continue to work, provided that you understand the release/upgrading notes. - patches are released, as required, typically to vulnerabilities Ultimately it comes down to what applications can I run. Generally all applications are going to run on each, so what differentiates? For me, the highlights of FreeBSD are lightweight jails, geom (geli, gmirror and gshsec), audit management, mandatory access controls (portacl, ifoff, mls/,...), and the knowledge that cowboy behaviour undergoes impedance. Together these contribute to a known state that can remain secure. I've run an outsource for 10 years using only FreeBSD servers and boundary devices; reboots occurred when we replaced the UPS batteries or there was a critical kernel patch. So I did bet the business on FreeBSD. Technical arguments - I'd leave to others, but its the non-technical argument that will win management. PS The bank remained on Linux because that's what the cloud providers' knew; and Operations were funding a service not a tech. -- *** NOTICE This email and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information and may be protected by copyright. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes for which they were supplied. The privilege or confidentiality attached to this message and attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, retain, forward or reproduce this message or any attachments. If you receive this message in error please notify the sender by return email or telephone and destroy and delete all copies. *** From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 06:05:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9C024FAD0 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:05:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KKVD4M9kz3KvZ for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:05:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=yllO/BO4ypaEJ3p0txrxG7j6fljadbMVNeUCikdsR3E=; b=WsVUzf5z66OpvZLVm4wD/srErX E4eBlD0pL8RObK3EoxxWESN4ExpZ7jrN/LPEJRwYoZe02qPHoQ189FD1Mx4EtvyZdexysnsBxbnDV XbO4PG4gxEljgk6V+BcrPtY94LMbJmtGqfnSAvzQ19Q8UhuQYpwqu84FxbdPziRbwcBA=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2qZv-0000kK-10 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:05:23 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:05:23 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215060523.GB1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214150126.GA1219@x1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XF85m9dhOBO43t/C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200214150126.GA1219@x1> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KKVD4M9kz3KvZ X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=WsVUzf5z; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.33)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.79), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:05:25 -0000 --XF85m9dhOBO43t/C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Julien Cigar wrote: > > > > > > > > Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what > > > > technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern L= inux? > > >=20 > > > Sorry, but I find this sort of a chalk vs cheese kind of comparison. > >=20 > > Of course not. When deciding what to use in the next project, you have > > to advocate your choice in front of your superiors and colleagues, and > > your presentation should be well backed up with technical arguments.=20 > >=20 > > When I advocate FreeBSD over Windows, for example, there are some very > > clear and easily defendable technical and economical advantages (open > > source, absence of viruses, BSD license - just to name a few). It is not > > so easy with FreeBSD vs Linux. > >=20 > > For example, the absence of Docker (or analogous technology) for FreeBSD > > is a huge disadvantage. We need to name really superiour features to > > make up for this shortage. >=20 > ZFS, bectl,=20 A great advantage no doubt.=20 > pf,=20 Is it really better than iptables? I just don't know iptables therefore am asking. But there is a number of things I'm unhappy about pf. > MAC,=20 How is it used in the real world? > ports and poudriere,=20 I think we can find similar things in the Linux world. But the separation of the base system and third-party software from ports/packages is a great advantage, I think. > GEOM and netgraph. These are powerful technologies, no doubt, but they are rather tools for FreeBSD developers than something visible to "outsiders" and general users/admins. > rctl, Dtrace support, ... rctl could be important, but Linux has cgroups, they are probably basically the same. >=20 > experience FreeBSD is a lot easier to manage and maintain than any of > the Linux-es I used, especially if you deploy everything with (VNET)=20 > jails, ZFS, and a custom poudriere repository (branch based) From the point of view of maintainance ans aesthetics, I agree FreeBSD looks simpler and cleaner (unless you're trying to use the GUI). I have chosen a workflow similar to yours (ZFS, custom poudriere repository) but bhyve VMs instead of jails. Thanks to ansible, creating and updating those VMs is not very boring. Disk space is cheap nowadays, so I don't becry the overhead of keeping a complete base system in each VM. >=20 > (For Docker I honnestly never understood all the fuss, you can achieve=20 > the same thing with jails and something like Saltstack, so it's not at > all an "huge" disadvantage to me) Well, the advantage of Docker is probably its wide community acceptance and popularity. I think a similar product could have been easily created with FreeBSD jails, mount_union, VNET etc but nobody took the trouble of creating it in the first place. You need a repository with popular apps packaged as jails (base system, nginx, mysql, postgres, php of different versions, exim, drupal...) then this product could become a success (if not too late). --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --XF85m9dhOBO43t/C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR4oiAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0Rb0H/18YLAysdI69bPBS9+FvJmJ2 VurK4gLNA+5PyaOXP/oYcROb4liYvLSohO9DdLpwMzL5ANOa+JaEXSg7ZzLrKYFc YeSCdYM3BXpzw74XgkF3OvSmeVfApQLZ4YgiRTK16msC8JeCCbWJb8Txulixp8fl xZyh2XczHhU4EG8lw/3iI0NdeHaHWN0i/0Y/VUBx89r94eH+jdHpmlOmf9hawi2h dCKKjsHC2GA1soeGAzrBVG5vlf4Rb8f2p/xGcz9eUITyJJs6cCeb2PGRkqMSRQ8b DPc3NfuPVY8FddPMDhK/cXMjHmQA5DRv0RFJYRs9XRqTJKgwzXU+cY5fjTSOrn4= =VNtO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XF85m9dhOBO43t/C-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 06:08:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A2624FD5F for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:08:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KKYd0lqMz3L67 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:08:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=/m6gwaKF6nlFygTHa1FGAqqj89AXKDl5b5W0z/1hJhI=; b=dTFWGD/+uXsNsg5rxxg6dl3CGa aBHCk6obELHyvQE2ojNm/cuukhWMuEh+qbwJlh+8CfG8TjtCDF9IwdeDz7rqQFjMTLVDWrj6aCDul dB1s+yCJcT5JVsoREFfWDMH0nhxPTtbIY+EjJOhbFJGj3Wf4SD4aBHban1seqqMDnKU8=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2qck-0000le-Om for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:08:18 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:08:18 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215060818.GC1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214150126.GA1219@x1> <20200214113358.225faf5e@scorpio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Pk6IbRAofICFmK5e" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200214113358.225faf5e@scorpio> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KKYd0lqMz3L67 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:08:21 -0000 --Pk6IbRAofICFmK5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry wrote: > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:01:40 +0100, Julien Cigar stated: >=20 > >Of course nothing is perfect (12.0-RELEASE was a very problematic > >release for us due to the various iflib issues and PR 236220), but from > >experience FreeBSD is a lot easier to manage and maintain than any of > >the Linux-es I used, especially if you deploy everything with (VNET)=20 > >jails, ZFS, and a custom poudriere repository (branch based) >=20 > 12.0-RELEASE is more than slightly problematic on my machine. I cannot > even get it to run correctly. SEE: >=20 > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D237666 I skipped 12.0 and am rather happy with 12.1 (both on real hardware and in = VMs). --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --Pk6IbRAofICFmK5e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR4rSAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0b6cH/0M1gHjpARKr+ToR2+nInM5I 8DHf8LuWmN4GMsFjs1xs0WQRIOB7w6pMeKjQNp8FxVOdmcKXiBLBBVwF6Ewfoo6x Nb0f5HkivclUv+e5yVjY7jGC/iPELoTyCgl1ZQ99kXwTAK5u37C0TiSjhtPV7kjK RzhF2MkfdIiRC8qJIxZHEGRG1/c1CN2G49y/L7Vi56nW24Ms2mVYU76X6hBRp4iH kbjta7ZR8XKt+b3/IxmRj+FHhuMNv5DWwGKBl4i1PzDPnG9RRBvrtchoygF8piC5 LmSgxZ0mMkO7vpYAcWLR0foRkQsHmwKgNNYF0Cxo/CSbjkXX2z61YVglOZIig+w= =qSUL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Pk6IbRAofICFmK5e-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 06:21:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57621250185 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:21:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KKrs3jqTz3LkN for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:21:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=6HB5ZoNoNXHoaDDwPQq2vqLYS1MqzNLJuqFfCtLopxs=; b=G0LPWHVDeBWGJ4MlmrySdjMtbg Siazd7/plEpuiofMP+1MAsHfp+hhc1zPds+y66Md0gxtCV9tdBHF1TtL8GhiIVsrwsDITDDDvJPeB q6akq2PHwJZavZ0qrwe/msuBwgZ34yg4TDMXZ4PH+s7kaQZNCM5UUESnwsqpVdju/2d8=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2qpY-0000qJ-5t for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:21:32 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:21:32 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215062132.GD1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <1eb61cba-5e28-e8ea-c418-a06f0f94ec86@kicp.uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vni90+aGYgRvsTuO" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1eb61cba-5e28-e8ea-c418-a06f0f94ec86@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KKrs3jqTz3LkN X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=G0LPWHVD; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.34)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.79), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:21:34 -0000 --vni90+aGYgRvsTuO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Valeri Galtsev wrote: [dd] > >=20 > > For example, the absence of Docker (or analogous technology) for FreeBSD > > is a huge disadvantage. We need to name really superiour features to > > make up for this shortage. > >=20 >=20 > In my book docker is really a disadvantage, not advantage, compared to > FreeBSD jails. Namely: >=20 > 1. docker carries pretty much whole system for one instance of what you r= un > in docker (that is, you have to patch all those instances of docker you > run), whereas whole bunch of jails can run under single instance of base > system; hence only one base system to update/patch I'm no Docker expert by any means, but from what I was shown by Docker advocates, you fetch the base system (usually the Alpine Linux, only about 40Mb in size) only once, and all application containers work on top of it. Once you update the Alpine container, all your container stacks are updated. Correct me if I'm wrong about the above. With FreeBSD's Linux binary compatibility, I see absolutely no reason why Docker has not been successfully ported to FreeBSD to run native linux containers (only with linuxolator enabled, because all necessary linux libs would be in containers). It could give a huge boost to FreeBSD's user base. >=20 > 2. [correct me someone if I'm wrong, I'm not a Docker expert): docker has > system whose components are read-write inside of its instance, hence it is That probably depends on how you compose your containers. Again, from what I was shown by Docker advocates, Docker has a way for contained applications to write to dedicated directories of the host's filesystem if need be. --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --vni90+aGYgRvsTuO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR43sAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0GFMH/0Vc9enZYHD1uHrcdDKaz9yK BmH9x/bdOhIMPXUpvJdfgOPPlJj47SxEog1sH3PgSMmGIWB/T/vgY1xEUOX4whWr W1AbZvUjmn3ghP3knVGOdLiGZb//pcdWqO4Vv+ninHn6yPg2lV1w9a2szW43sgHh glx0bT+Jz9ApCfgidy/BPnS07ChaO4+Ik8bQoqbEpRGWjEnwe2C7v1oYX/7Ei9Ry watWsSFmF0Br/u/Uglsyav7TiVtDMXjfcRcu8wieYMK7nqUFQr/HFvaafSIbqMhM +aVqWGDCJLqNoz8f8/jE6dEQFTA/ojO9YjyRW81RWSMKcEKtxU3qMU1PlLBRHvM= =JIHN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vni90+aGYgRvsTuO-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 06:38:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF6E2508E7 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KLDD27kxz3MYD for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=/BpPOZkxBaO8jGPKlZdIArgYwDTY+iqU4xEXCTAfDgA=; b=iqYolXJQOhp+1AOnPMwGUpY/Pp 7pvZ/z4UfoSAYYAYFEhbNOgbBKlrh3yArN0zLVEn1NBv9TfHymxWI3fWXOE16GTVEpHCpQRsnE0pn 8k1iZdTCVz4eEMvWBhdOG5ixcQfFAfEhtH+YKeUKQxEsnPXdrLAQtvHo4ABnX8EVeXjQ=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2r5m-0000vQ-ON for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:38:18 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:38:18 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ey/N+yb7u/X9mFhi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KLDD27kxz3MYD X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=iqYolXJQ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.34)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.80), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:38:21 -0000 --ey/N+yb7u/X9mFhi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:16:00 +0700 > Victor Sudakov wrote: >=20 > > For example, the absence of Docker (or analogous technology) for FreeBSD > > is a huge disadvantage. We need to name really superiour features to > > make up for this shortage. >=20 > pkg search docker shows a lot of packages including: >=20 > docker-18.09.5_1 Open-source application container engine > docker-compose-1.24.0_1 Define and run multi-container applications > with Docker >=20 > Looks like we have docker=20 I was speaking of sysutils/docker-freebsd which remained BROKEN for years and was eventually removed from the ports tree. I'll certainly look at sysutils/docker and sysutils/docker-compose, thanks for the hint. I hope it is THE docker (/me is starting poudriere...) > - but IMHO jails are better lightweight > containers with a *much* longer track record=20 But jails lack a repository of ready-made containers with applications. To be honest, jails lack even a decent management infrastructure. Yes we have bits like "pkg -j", "bectl jail", "bsdinstall jail", "freebsd-update -b" but nobody cared to build a convenient infrastructure out of all this, not to speak about a repository of ready-made jails for different purposes. > and there's bhyve for full > blown virtualisation. bhyve is great, that's true. If it could also run Windows guests on paravirtualized disks (not emulated SATA), I'd be completely happy. --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --ey/N+yb7u/X9mFhi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR5HaAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0/wYH/AvLbzR76bgNoa8Lm1/yMkdz mq9KdE70Uj5NURCcLO5ANKuExWBPvK0Ali6HulRU1W7iR6sYxcBTTZWQD8ieX6ch r7t6w34wNNfsK0tXcAm3yXNqr8Z52UMUPgZuFxgDgckBn0e6gUWYrxVA8vTlILTa dzV8/7gHogpebuHqXf0ifeF8lZd0vXTVlvh0ysUOZjFcOrmxZoZc8Hllt9pOLlOF RqxRjvJDs3djboSWfVyFPZjIRDbqseprXRtKT+EoQ5DhTqUArXFIH23sKYmKHnh5 KPZaRDVN9IMYGhnM69qoKArgSNpOzObZlIVZ6Pur5JNj6VLbbw8xJGq3xKsRjw4= =Qr1X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ey/N+yb7u/X9mFhi-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 06:49:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E37250DFA for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:49:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KLSn0xNZz3N4l for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:49:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=SmR4Nos09LBOaYYNx84+hHGp0Gn8eYxMKDZBe8LtHg4=; b=kZq3otCkVUvf+NID25k/Kz72oJ vu1yHS5o7ypoGDx1mvTlUiv+gTIkAwQWzwFZucxSNlHCH5dabUWQP4I9nlEpRTkOcUF524pdCR8hE EbibsfNitxaFOpGTc3kKi8CJ0SydBZfmVcjhU+JRBHBjbNmp082WNoQuc/ZkEd4RJoCI=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2rGJ-0000zD-R4 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:49:11 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:49:11 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215064911.GF1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hK8Uo4Yp55NZU70L" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KLSn0xNZz3N4l X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=kZq3otCk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.34)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.80), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:49:14 -0000 --hK8Uo4Yp55NZU70L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >=20 > Another PITA on Linux machines are drop directories, overriding sane > configs, providing everything in one place. >=20 > IOW a user might rely on /etc/foo.conf , but an update despotic installs >=20 > /etc/foo.d/10-bar.conf >=20 > and >=20 > /etc/foo.d/20-bra.conf >=20 > overriding all the values chosen for bar and bra by the admin, stored > in /etc/foo.conf . >=20 > An update never ever would replace /etc/foo.conf . On Arch Linux it > would be stored as /etc/foo.conf.pacnew , almost all Linux distros > provide such a solution, but the admin is screwed, if an update does > add a file to /etc/foo.d/ . FreeBSD has taken this path too (looking at /etc/rc.conf.d/, /etc/cron.d and numerous others). FreeBSD's config merging solutions (mergemaster for src updates and freebsd-update calling sdiff) are pretty good IMHO. --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --hK8Uo4Yp55NZU70L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR5RnAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0tZQH/jlJf/Mhvzknn7kAUlZO2OE1 mGITSWHnp27pCgyZJcgT5u3vWEjv3OIBYOU12HKVwiPV+iS/EME3bfwwGS1NpmkJ Z+NCNm56wgdXuBu0/rr74DkeQJBR55O2Xx3FlHTAWWXQpe/px4TNqH7Gm3MWPVvX Cg37VlzXgkHOWKhH38+aj0ExVDAD5eKMef/L9qJApWrFAc8/isT24dXK335KKPS6 noPugkC7oZ+sidbdakSLShVbFBA5ubf53AaJyCDFv7rLkC2ywvH1UyS8dHToeFy0 xdg0sKKLCfT+dfgwstrGwoUXcsKkRlyAXggHhd05bu3tiI3dEP4d+8o/Ow49XGM= =qQ4K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hK8Uo4Yp55NZU70L-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 06:53:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A6D2510E5 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:53:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au [203.41.22.115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2560 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au", Issuer "Heuristic Systems Type 4 Host CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KLZ52wN3z3NT9 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:53:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) Received: from [10.0.5.3] (noddy.hs [10.0.5.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by hermes.heuristicsystems.com.au (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01F6pTcU083653 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:51:30 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=heuristicsystems.com.au; s=hsa; t=1581749490; x=1582354291; bh=pqJqltBao+RK817SqpIZVFqSfh9VmLExUKx1x2k/Nvw=; h=Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date; b=SfJqB3o1eGauBOz762jQU29JNUePafzOEfGgzvMhZp3b4n7Q5WvIrge9EkbE1/yd3 iS2cbDUGTuG6dEfyjEdzWi6kIWfGwBq09RMOhs92oM6yiA34vL8cTusDGEAO1Uv51/ Nom3jel7voc514m8x0Xbuw7Mq5Bw80ghC8fDVL3eepiTwnL3sAjD8 X-Authentication-Warning: b3.hs: Host noddy.hs [10.0.5.3] claimed to be [10.0.5.3] Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting To: David Christensen , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <091dd3af-7b99-267f-7d04-541b6d651926@holgerdanske.com> From: Dewayne Geraghty Autocrypt: addr=dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQFNBFbOsVMBCgDfvi2PspSwoMEtFhF+aFLQKtzSA9f0dhDqthKHESdfbqxvKzhkBjvTJ5Na EgjKoKfoQTh5xuIv3HLhtDo5PeasPgQl9cPJeriqmqlS+UhY5BGYcMc1AO/TX0fsDaQz96ko at3RUW7sff/qPgVzSurk+DV5h866gPdn5Jdjohyl2F1rzRl6dnaAIyg49zlwZOnPHJGKye+B meqUCnPRglhkpNqXR3v1ulbWpfwhdNDvWT82qTG/qsFy/agjJvxwLuEBeoGc1dPWasO8Nztt 0dqf1Lpeg6SX2yJd76WVS4znt88OEbx/QL2PTJ/YtSepS68WaeKuARKPukkU+QXDep0gaLPl /TvU5xAZndNB3rYnpmoLb32pDHlrJbZUVyTMqc3J2EYM6aaizCpg4VEvVpVSqUT4D9MuREhu PeZ3SvEazQARAQABiQF3BB8BCAAhBQJWzrFTFwyAAWHe5yZt8RJL0vaU1MfDto5dBmeFAgcA AAoJEJVk7a1LmFrdy2QJ/AysDdFIMCRiaqEellprZQyEz5I/qZJEi6yRfXH813hhISFz6moh urZYLQ9SRdyMntT8W3Oc4pJc9fF9RSnY0SSQY/arZbrvsv6hKb1KtIK7P5mLS914J9buxEcJ SWeVuOuMA9aCNqg5uMu19pH5pXayORfbv+K7vFPiyllZ64ShUWZJL69vAc/TsbvMrGtG1M4P qyWCOKEiUT93zhVGQoA0aUYjMAZoyvozZCuieo4O8hkPgMz9lka+3bqQBSOB+qO4Iz+CZs0k Lw7Soga6bRqLK86DH99WjTA6Oj1r8Won+j4V9fnTDCVJoSyqdVHLySDv/lHaNu4Ia4AO4i2d shmLw03gOUvoWLJx5X01A5Zio4FvecnpZqQ0Wz5Ph9MiK3lwarfjonTOLeNGd5BpdnHu5VRC fJml7uAYeyKsD8C4tCpEZXdheW5lIEdlcmFnaHR5IDxkZXdheW5lQGFtZGcuZXRvd25zLm9y Zz6JAYAEEwEIACoFAlbOsVcCGyELCwoNCQgMBwsDAgQIFQoJCAsDAgEFFgMCAQACHgECF4AA CgkQlWTtrUuYWt0L1QoAjsCVsMXXMmShfBg8sEpL/Yhe+mPjxHZQveAaAFzcYjvvjgYQbh1y FpNko+CYlm7HryG2GpUUYMr4rvAySTg2yka+mqLMmPX72srPTEhS1zhrYjKKwV+wKBfwIliP sVW6DLHqu2ETonwZiWErMKGx5upUxljZo9bup+EfFlMVStTbETzJw1UGC0ypaAA1p0GniF0J iUyDY7VzLUl+F5zH+E64W7VR1K7Fjx7dtBZSWvtYKubrVrys/eCfwLQdLYqx0zZu4qDTuAHa Xhc018mIQpLJ+NBjTk5xPPCFmV2d8GFMPbX0qeSOKIvFCXsqC0fPYyYOGX4I5u2JTWUCPuRa GcQ0R8uUh0cURN/Ui4SDa0w0z1ZLySh1oT+WgMN1OskZ9dbWl3J8rxOvTi4FnjSGactYAawK LbMKq8w8ghnhTuE= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:50:34 +1100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <091dd3af-7b99-267f-7d04-541b6d651926@holgerdanske.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KLZ52wN3z3NT9 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=fail (rsa verify failed) header.d=heuristicsystems.com.au header.s=hsa header.b=SfJqB3o1; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au designates 203.41.22.115 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dewayne@heuristicsystems.com.au X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_REJECT(1.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au:s=hsa]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[heuristicsystems.com.au:-]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[115.22.41.203.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.4.2]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-3.20)[ip: (-9.68), ipnet: 203.40.0.0/13(-4.07), asn: 1221(-2.27), country: AU(0.01)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1221, ipnet:203.40.0.0/13, country:AU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:53:51 -0000 David, Two small points: when using "glabel status" I can see both the glabel assigned label and the tunefs file system label on an MBR usb drive label/ss1 N/A da0s2d ufs/ss1 N/A da0s2d label/keys N/A da0s2e ufs/keys N/A da0s2e perhaps its an enhancement on my 12.1Stable system? :) In regard to running without swap and crashing, you may have overlooked setting: vm.swap_enabled=0 vm.nswapdev=0 (taken from a system without swap that's been running for a few years) My use of swap, like you, is limited to wanting a mini kernel dump, and using swap space for memory devices (mdconfig). Though I do have swap on another disk when I really need all of memory to be dumped, which has been about once in 10 years ;) Cheers. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 06:56:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E0A25123D for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:56:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KLdR1gs0z3NZv for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:56:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=PahxC4Wtg1JgBI4gsZAbhqc6eM3+PQE5oAlMxh/9sLA=; b=dgBPRx4hLyjELlHn+j50usXLwC 3nT2iWpHRyapEGIffIlV2aal28d92SXX819CdkeAy+KHUiuKOgvIZqOCGm6N6RiihH0xR5+R15lkN NSp79C3QDgS9aWOjrFtlYHMZUcgsuNCuHu1PAt1Fea17b2TTRPtPTFkpcOJMMX+WPDJc=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2rNZ-00011l-QO for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:56:41 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:56:41 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KLdR1gs0z3NZv X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=dgBPRx4h; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.34)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.81), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:56:44 -0000 --hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Polytropon wrote: >=20 > Additionally, there's systemd-homed to re-invent home directories. > I'm not sure if there will be systemd-linuxd and systemd-kerneld > to re-invent everything else. ;-) "Among the items being explored by systemd-homed are JSON-based user records," What's next, systemd-registryd? This is some madman run amok and nobody to stop him. We've known such revolutionaries in the history of Russia, like Czar Peter I "let's change everything for the sake of change". --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR5YpAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY011cH/2dHINFbLw153YFtQgc+6wx8 RWzZEeDTZUrM7NlZJIsmN86133GWS5vc2cNCigTxMbTzCsgK4lT4nyQd9TyPmjJp CMCi/eD2DAjtBSL+azA/a3dfpjXxc43Xm4o0+dbwrZy5I4qC+FCu+O6vwY2sHXOo GRQJ2S410NqW931f8+/1MqivVPY236bMgr7OahsQmaU0DKFTpHmuUREeuYVBYJ9v xGFl1qDA8Won/QTdBgbsemMV0aDJYolKTDN6S8qYuStIzGIVr35p/IpCHLh0Jrhg PuB2Uwol596EZSmowO9WoDGsh32o578Vx9mZ7izWdHCiEwaWZEZf9lVnffWHw64= =dDbk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 07:10:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65F02515E1 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:10:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KLxV4KxLz3P23 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:10:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=oUXChGOnZKxF3vgMlo9ssKudChjJNVCZ1fSBf4MWqOA=; b=P7jhwue80tSmSXkFPQN7YID/+g HLzqGOmBPdGn29eEM4IHBc5IxAZndkqpHmVTz9FfpfYMGcbdOKYJoWBFihgMfxpsJZriYHq+0iZKL KYiErMpwsUWsY71ReU4cn5Knizr500N31CUsXCMQlQRUCHGWR5bicVv7ZcfjXUanhE6U=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2rb3-000168-0a for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:10:37 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:10:36 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215071036.GH1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jRdC2OsRnuV8iIl8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KLxV4KxLz3P23 X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=P7jhwue8; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.34)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.82), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:10:39 -0000 --jRdC2OsRnuV8iIl8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steven Malone wrote: > Victor, >=20 > While this may not be a technical response, I have had immensely better > experiences managing a FreeBSD server than a Linux one. The primary > difference in my experience has been around system upgrades. When > updating Linux I have had all sorts of applications start failing after > the a simple package update. I do not have this problem when updating > FreeBSD, it has been much more reliable for me. I have also seen similar > results from system upgrades, Linux upgrades have broken my system > countless times. I have never had a FreeBSD system completely tank after > an upgrade. Not saying it would never happen, but it has been so much > more stable I avoid Linux where-ever possible. I am sure there are > technical reasons for this, probably having to do with the way FreeBSD > manages itself as a complete OS instead of a collection of bits around a > kernel. > I think Michael W. Lucas puts it best "FreeBSD lets me sleep at night." Yes, I've seen Linux systems (Ubuntu) broken after an upgrade. Not completely unbootable (God forbid) but mostly unable to update something because of missing or incorrect dependencies, and complaining about this. But I've also seen my share of FreeBSD systems with similar dependencies problems. However, in FreeBSD, with its separation of the world and ports/packages, you can always "pkg delete -af" and install everything =66rom scratch from ports/packages, and you will still have a functional base system to deal with problems. And if "freebsd-update" screws something up, you can hopefully rollback the update with beadm/bectl. --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --jRdC2OsRnuV8iIl8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR5lsAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0gNIIAI5BP55iOhZZ9gBrkWX6zTnI vg9V+2HPqlgz6ou/ih71Ud6Lfk4X62W+C8p59LnH05uDw289aesLYUDuMwPEhGFj sLtMlJsHlM7XYFOZiX9nKWwQtR+MtCtQMIK/qu40i7rLladDsRwsT0XhCdL4dD5y 9tDXELkrwRqQExYLoId94mkr6xjPe0fJmcep7+6Sz6UDFEYZ3ofm0CYibW+7APqA RcF84ksz30F36p0LQRVZEJemoSp1stOcKcwCWphO11DR1soHQ5kgUN1brCmJjD1u XYfVNFtNDXt5XF+vRFPvCO/LMg5a7mLhFM6yk5zNaKgq7u6Zqx1ME6PgRl3ZoIc= =8nEu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jRdC2OsRnuV8iIl8-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 07:18:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A0E251899 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:18:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KM6Y2Z4xz3PNw for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:18:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date; bh=Bna4IQvNwC2AzDwkdP2YuvHab2dXdaYQE19TU7JhrNo=; b=odPmNVoiz7Mx0BdyrW5Epkww4K jWpMU8zMkTf1rKynkfCpMn9Ty/4MO+2f/hvQxwDQDGD5CcBVrog+L2u3HQ6m3PbQtNbD0NPOWKHFP KFp3MC7Le0nnSnxpmka6UVKLmiVkUjF5TIYZBRYtZ2h6kKmvOHk+EIyD1VU4CHeRyi6o=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2rie-00018s-4U for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:18:28 +0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:18:28 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215071828.GI1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Op27XXJsWz80g3oF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KM6Y2Z4xz3PNw X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=odPmNVoi; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-3.34)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.82), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:18:29 -0000 --Op27XXJsWz80g3oF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alejandro Imass wrote: >=20 > IMHO, BSD could invest in taking projects like EzJail (plus ZFS) to make > this functionality native and EASY, provide an images database and the > infrastructure to provide a NATIVE, bare metal equivalent to Docker + > Terraform. In other words, FreeBSD and other BSD projects could offer > NATIVE and modern CI/CD and IaaS pipelines on bare metal. Hear, hear! --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --Op27XXJsWz80g3oF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJeR5tEAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0MkUIALnyQPOvWH5KqeGxcJxJRLOL WjWPaxb7z5Z2vJMBIMkbd7j24k3AykWjeUhH7IpmVpA6/g78OQg11HTDbfXPwd0j jwtWo7tCXxUCk3DiImVoGjSaCyf3YjG5EKBUEWcKrcUw6LWJMuhuEg9B9nAFrrGQ j8hybxvUv/2NtJfqeK9njrsCNl7682DJsW2wNR9i3TrxENUvZVroEsgugTsQiDqE zTG+EsFaKGNdLkHJJDQzWDbBKlxKSXuvSaiM9HAlX2VMGPnVJrECP9vH6MJbBY/+ XlTilj7JWCHejDi6RjYQGb5567KY8KKqhIgsrFlAIhHtIu5qyizz479UhA+zl4g= =ZrgN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Op27XXJsWz80g3oF-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 08:19:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7079D2529DD for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:19:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic313-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic313-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KNTS6wflz3wrZ for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:19:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: a6vq0eEVM1mpgQonEhWVa50w3d2sttGG2QOiWYpnY6KVXpMQcBNWGdI.uZfs2zu Up7h7xj84EzME7fm2smGKKGoYNPu7XsvmIPW.z8bCFUsawzfPPkidm9gRw.wRWAO1brUBZXIWkIs XcARt0oa.7fdxZ1o8myXqpybxsTjremT7M1IJzsNm1GJdZyTPXeBLtiCLoH9SplU9wXg7kyoKo7F cfP8UE22ycLPzcNm5Cuao1YChBytkLjESjrCh7JITz8ICp2gNIPO.LG6WdveYct.yyEfjvRl9mws 2eHuK8ZDAKRoOwb_vR2BkzQGmYCk8XS22VCDPlJVbkpX_75sL2ADX_hRPTpgNbZf3u0RXyA3Dr1I b8AwlKx_5y6dJpMUqcg7KOWlrGe6vEBk2eBgX0RCk1gsvi1Z7N2lpVmAuhXRiP2NPt_qqA_UFRRD k_1YBkwM5xWygTyacXbYJ0VirT1L6vXKYX7s4ppk5sibYTcDsrgfYekPZJhCaNlrx4iiPLn6nRqY d7avqIxXURMJuJqlQajaWL7YKamAnByvzu8l4SgKIldHSCK0oi2o7lsA5LxmtcLvqGvnIVvAkVSO PrmtrSDTY5YhtOt6GVZM2GHFKhCtDjJyZMc_YNF9kRr4UO6dV5ZIAUgHWjQFY1sDtkcX9AJl1rBE zNGGLLG_2h3vTaXc7SVTh7gTwtebIvSRcBvSn0JHrrRd49hqg4cvdk81.Wj7j7kmqHb4zZFxUIex I_EVdbFYmqYaBrEcEYaauyyqiMOX_BbX6L5hkpb4SkKTrvr5wKYGu1BCYTM2UcGDhNMl56JLJYsu m56hIBUEQfUNi_eKcCWGGsl76O6HrWqKlCnLvz.OvNSXGBPVi73W.tRgJyo2aZb5Bs3Cy51mpNCi xoVQO5iQoDIRqF5BtPo.V00BWcTr_2hWLAmaxT04VDzAE0NrTmN1I5s1PhWeOi.u0d7kUQtBofc6 KhN9tAlxpz_X3foMRnqrDLwapmK9Glmq0DDkLnPTqSUe6yS2H6mj_xMq8zVz5VA5LgxgoKf3zere eiwi7jueGBdaZtJPIPrik30K2AyX1J5fqjy1SabtQ8ejnjw_31HxdM_NZzxIs62x9Bh2mBDU7jWK 1MA9jGDnk.x_RLhbCU83z3RqJNCQN4Z.UZHlobN1j0.6elCmh5Rf7.z2_BqO5cfwrbWxMBpNnqtU wNk8_IjzreI3ZZ.b70ppq1DXuKAeWOJuI.LfejOMPYopqmU8HxQ6HLj.RGFNnSj5yZZ96QKVtkln 5y4KV60mlQUohKrz7SGLY5g9ynzXYQZHICL5perh7uTgHd8djWPSynzw3d46CGPWzelyFDrTda_Q 0f6vXCu_vYmvp36KnaGc2zx0vXemxBQ5ABU4pyW420SATxCglYwFZxj4BaFGx0BIz2vjTCrOSkEd PYmaK4Mmncp9LUCgA Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:19:54 +0000 Received: by smtp402.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 9a03ea4c7c5d689364804cfa2ea4af4f; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:19:51 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:19:50 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215091950.578d1836@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: <20200215071036.GH1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215071036.GH1482@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KNTS6wflz3wrZ X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.55)[-0.550,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.74)[-0.738,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[189.179.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.98), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.71), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[189.179.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:19:58 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:10:36 +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote: >Yes, I've seen Linux systems (Ubuntu) broken after an upgrade. Not >completely unbootable (God forbid) but mostly unable to update >something because of missing or incorrect dependencies, and >complaining about this. > >But I've also seen my share of FreeBSD systems with similar >dependencies problems. However, in FreeBSD, with its separation of the >world and ports/packages, you can always "pkg delete -af" and install >everything from scratch from ports/packages, and you will still have a >functional base system to deal with problems. And if "freebsd-update" >screws something up, you can hopefully rollback the update with >beadm/bectl. In a worst case scenario you could run a Linux from an USB stick or a DVD etc., first chroot and then downgrade, for Arch Linux e.g. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux_Archive#How_to_restore_all_packages_to_a_specific_date Usually a chroot shouldn't be required, it more likely is possible to rollback without a chroot and without editing repository and mirror configs. It's also possible to downgrade an Ubuntu install. However, due to Ubuntu's policy an Ubuntu install unlikely gets broken, assuming the user understands Ubuntu's policy. Official repositories are split into Main, Restricted, Universe and Multiverse. While not all are supported by the Ubuntu developers, upgrading and downgrading within a release does not cause dependency inconsistencies. Within an Ubuntu release SONAMEs do not change. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories#Main Ubuntu installs usually get broken, if unskilled users add third party repositories. Ubuntu tries to workaround this and other issues by https://snapcraft.io/ . FWIW Arch Linux does not support snaps. Everybody is allowed to post the Arch Linux logo and to claim whatever she likes to claim. Ubuntu already posted the Arch Linux logo, when by default Arch kernel configs "audit" and "apparmor" were disabled, IOW when the basic infrastructure for snaps was missing. To put it in a nutshell, the problem with Linux is diversity, less that it is missing something. Not everything provided for Linux is useful, but everything important is well documented, it's just not easy to decide what policies and manuals to read and after that to decide what path to take. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 08:22:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883BA252C35 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:22:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic307-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KNXC1td6z3xBJ for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:22:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: s0qIFt0VM1n68ci7rGs4EgK.dRM9QSHJTdzCmBrWuEEHjbDY80Z23U6hwjmfIKb pvPtSlH4oV2xZRGel1S_FvPRTu5zKGkFgSrT6sbg.Ai.0OFF7fLDrubVi4iiuhMjM4wTJrSSQ9Zh EDQ22VxQIw2RS4KcLXNruEDYJF_G13yrWUMC7FtJ_MFkGg1ROt7kWitXUpZ.tCKyPOXHxDTO1zCU 97O7SPRFPTdosw8wUOaTt2pCVNGv8kEEpOT6BCX1EZxmIEHQertv3RFMQsQ4k0_Us9eQ5rcDmvM2 cs4d010WwisHPZlr.uzrvYybe4yCVvsoWGl81.4LmLJseg6Rk8t6cOoX2WfDU5ewObbMm__kz3md L_ThIJcf0GziKvZckzbVnshOF8NoAziPe11nVV4zpq0JqVpjpZu_iz.HCXkvTUiZnYiAbkWPLvw8 p1nWOxrfxyOst1_.n2JAQo5F5GHukfsZE909IwFiB1ty61VxdlzNzlyLLhM.NxfQ1.TICgPoN8TU MRir8jZ9T0ouexk_jgkGNYAnSJE7V3NsRUqvYb35CmU2vL139X6Gs3vlXUs8dDm0MUwTPpqOhF6v _Eq0ipL7Y9ZzanUYI4TaWBv86vg5ZJAm3Mt131Il6VKwlS32PXwxfbrJqSOQDPlzBC1UY_JdwvdA cEmeTXkpfH2U6Q5sul2.e7uYIq0tbxauIBVlh5PVvb3qLpEr6ciV3NqU3OO.Obum6MCLIVkWsIzw uiYM49Byl.D17sUc74ZUsDE_oL34Az1rbGeBmm9wSuVsqP7XMR9XqAcx4WqFBXvHmDin3pDokIQ1 RfrCFBZMgjYGh6kAmubT2ISI1trRRxpEqUDLsO_eEoAAWpEn.jiHeGXnL1bFc5HyzVg2qo9pl_Ee fowHn9_gDSfbGMviHF_J6pzbkeT1OSqD26_UElfWpFZZN_Ve85_4ggSIl0W9crCGTCr39DCRMGKc nVge9eZSp7uIY6U_8ffsTdjpXwA8i4mxCSwJ9hXI6AniXiCtmplskvQSFnoh6OLfP8_hXrzUwve2 e8ug.m54k.fOqt.rvoeAmSlZMgu2hkRlJQhHp9V7Timxx5l4uAsHNfBqkiTGdc16OxwMk67r9HU4 I3eyAozfGkkjqFOfFvf2_8xXJSZfPEbPcsyvV6Rpds.FqfYgP25GPtxXcevyI9wRpzn17GP5143Q zTJiKLkM3UwMkwvnoS83T3dxVHAfVbsGCYSEC1JZwqt99e1DJXv1mVBLevGgkTajswVnnJaIJBtx nEnfiR4nfJoW0_s6gWapZJkP4dJQiBhJ25hOhVAQpAJFYWFRrKC695AgC1On_5izlklLbT2WGcMg gOV_sdKfryF21ytRErOjBEKEzD.T.5jYDQr49wjyTnoQGjsoI6HoXfkgwJiaKGSF6NE7PnD7YERU Wbb8Y8xK6Hh_CAKMXRGANz.WIJZc- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:22:18 +0000 Received: by smtp407.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0ef7d133a53d2d2455c2e8ebefc63c55; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:22:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f53.google.com with SMTP id m13so5032430pjb.2 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 00:22:17 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXrxa8iJiUujv4VfRkgVZJieV+rf8tyMLBitdnMguSUsUolZ6dT IyDwcLB46ELnjWlgZmwCopxKod7O2HmCSZ9NP0E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwxoDnam5VP+IUhKcDxWKBoGB3hcMVngz6JljYU49GAMLsoXKqNV5EcV923LJN885C+e1GsT11IWWmHpLszPP4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1256:: with SMTP id gx22mr8455822pjb.94.1581754936160; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 00:22:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215052620.GA1482@admin.sibptus.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200215052620.GA1482@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:21:59 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: Victor Sudakov Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KNXC1td6z3xBJ X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.23 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.931,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[vas@sibptus.ru]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.60)[-0.601,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[31.190.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.72), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:22:20 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 at 05:26, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Fine, let's apply your approach, it could yield interesting results. Can > we find 3-4 real world scenarios where FreeBSD cannot be replaced by > Linux without important negative technical and business consequences of > said replacement? Not that I know of, but my experience in "corporate" is limited. I once (+12 years ago) suggested to move one of our products (a load balancer) from a badly customised version of Linux to OpenBSD and I was told to mind my own business, and that was it. In the grand order of things, *Linux and *BSD are quite similar. They are both open-source; application compatibility is almost 100%. There are obvious technical differences under the bonnet, but your average corporate manager won't spend time and brain power trying to understand. If they do, call yourself lucky. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 08:34:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CBD25315B for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:34:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KNnq1nqSz3xyq for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:34:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581755647; x=1584347647; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=HxucDqTwO3hz4UahUyslbSuLnHpKgw3bnuRxZJ44KA8=; b=UifuEfFURMX7W7eed2zwHQdo7XbhsRrCET3do1BzYb05nDFPrbHgMAvo0NMgpF5UEqJCyYx0kNBGiUsVBgcgpUG0Cjwq0x7AcvorguPRjpxDUkpi+Ii5W8YJKZFte7/NAzjBC5xTqK4YMSANGn70OLgz/XwLfOT0BbRGJ0I60ns= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDQ2NDdkMy5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:34:03 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:34:01 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2stj-000Eht-N8 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:33:59 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:33:59 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KNnq1nqSz3xyq X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=UifuEfFU; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.29), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.58), asn: 7381(0.29), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:34:08 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:38:18 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: > But jails lack a repository of ready-made containers with applications. True - but there's never been anything to prevent setting one up, iocage has export, import, rename and snapshot which should provide the necessary core. > To be honest, jails lack even a decent management infrastructure. Yes we There are several iocage, ezjail, cbsd, bsdploy, jest to mention just a few. I find iocage suits my needs well enough. > have bits like "pkg -j", "bectl jail", "bsdinstall jail", > "freebsd-update -b" but nobody cared to build a convenient > infrastructure out of all this, not to speak about a repository of > ready-made jails for different purposes. Quite so, FreeBSD has all the bits to do it and has had for some time, but nobody wanted a repository of pre-built jails enough to make one. Nothing stops you from starting one based around one of the tools above or from scratch based on the native support. It gets done internally by organisations using FreeBSD to provide images that have been tested and vetted by internal dev-ops and security folks - such organisations also tend to build their own docker repository rather than trusting ones from the net. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 08:38:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558F32532D0 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:38:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KNvH4kspz3y7x for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:38:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581755932; x=1584347932; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=JpWwXlxYjTmOqSN9WdnEW9OuiNWxYzDsl2y271X6Vww=; b=dO2JAUAUqADNSiz2EgRIfESJVHe6YgzCuSF9s5daTDqeatWJ5LTuFpXUjcZqo7PjmOVQfpzpFlyz2gnf4o5EEOAdM1qOjJkFZuwsWwdheHoTdVWu+AxapQ+VRPP+LFhvmZg66QMPe7vfJ0elvN0fdHbtYv+fr/4OP9HCK1CiZnI= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDQ2NmE4Ny5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r1.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:38:50 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:38:50 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2syO-000Eih-OQ for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:38:48 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:38:48 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215083848.ca1d5b3d463e50da5947a381@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215064911.GF1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200215064911.GF1482@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KNvH4kspz3y7x X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=dO2JAUAU; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.29), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.58), asn: 7381(0.28), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:38:52 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:49:11 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: > Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > > An update never ever would replace /etc/foo.conf . On Arch Linux it > > would be stored as /etc/foo.conf.pacnew , almost all Linux distros > > provide such a solution, but the admin is screwed, if an update does > > add a file to /etc/foo.d/ . > > FreeBSD has taken this path too (looking at /etc/rc.conf.d/, /etc/cron.d > and numerous others). FreeBSD has used this approach to carefully separate default configuration from user provided configuration - the directories are generally for sysadmins the files for the distribution. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 08:40:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54D42533DC for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:40:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KNx55NfTz3yF4 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:40:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581756026; x=1584348026; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=RnHalpjuo8Ua7PPoRh+I9W1VzhWT6/StEsJvFmO58nw=; b=mp/AmgXa9Oed8w66vcOjOzWrnVHlUb5lwOT/Z44L3T34drLbhYBztZQLMKTWqMAUEiZY4+0u/MnvnI65RXhhh4AL7sR1IbZzHGYnYYlNz4cOUSe6w9EPFPmbw45CyXspjl8Pjex+Tog7sznBUteJpTlgKYf+PEKGGBoISmfWJbM= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDQ2NmM4Ny5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.h.in.socketlabs.com (r2.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:40:24 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:40:24 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2szu-000EjT-F0 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:40:22 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:40:22 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215084022.1cda38ceb5b1e7aba3c7f1e3@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215071036.GH1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215071036.GH1482@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KNx55NfTz3yF4 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=mp/AmgXa; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.29), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.57), asn: 7381(0.28), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:40:26 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:10:36 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: > And if "freebsd-update" screws > something up, you can hopefully rollback the update with beadm/bectl. Or even freebsd-update rollback unless it is really screwed. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 09:13:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD072540A7 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:13:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KPfz3ls6z4158 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:13:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: WAp4g8sVM1kqDLPbDvu8_v7Ry1UvwVwZs4tKaI.VBYwX6Z6IGnX2hq5dEntaHfe 5VoFKZhXxfAjVXnX3AAsGJWMTrW_vnNjjHy._NXAdiuJ9EfSKkt_j41M_bcPcWTaPm8NCXLGZeyM 1KxXlABGS7PYO169cC16TY_xfYJpm5L7pBeUVtmNSdww2QJpLQG7y65EKTelWXM9j4QcLHoyFpJP ntH9Q0IyJGpvsKIRdEWnywJZJjsWU.qstu8osagdgViyzId1cGToWNvydHYYuLkayYJdYIH9N8Bg a4GZfhKNmc1HWqAwWVSA3wHABhnMxpzNg_Pv7Iq.ZtPX.TuPOoCHb5DBm83M5lAGJeBXoL4ZshbV 4fAr273vXuAvUgg6s9rrNczJvn1F9yWgYsMvKny2WE7yz521Dz4NElIzwSeCtlzquWtJ4MlABK3K bIJcMD.XuvUrZN5gH1dmKxnNgfJKpjADI_xGIV0C4sy4YXS0z7aZFMYcDTVrwozhnBJ8CbkmSrCN lvnX8sQyTLSmaUbBhRydVn9lx6zV4.0vRrZQ4ULS7VAgZd1SVryy1D_8i9nDO941xxKV23xBPwhF p7dmv2GawR4CUHqDo3s3_PD0W3bmiu7hdv50g6B4KDc2EivsY3lJoOd9vQu1LHjxrcxEBvKCE3U4 H28U.Xj9qgptKB49hTIFjv2yCSnnhalsPq8ErEax_httlYP.0rfWnW_RQTlgfekJ2uZAEKqjbbNU MmCA8x.D5xdxHDbBBnywbXar9PeSjoqWBdeWTTnDc7Z_L4D58VGx94rO4hdcp4gKmL6Ol0b8SLz1 qGFzGdB3yne8pZqUhg5ctW0nVh6cB58.KU0fchym6YuStd9dEwhW4MPZvT0XBGkQU.ak2X79wSEX ULnabc1.RnvgV__UyDMr9xCCqWXwu8xEXDPilHy_aQFvmfwuuupsU0oF04zNrShFrMyFj.4Sj9Y7 4MJ9PS48OxEau.u69_Ofime9qtlVq_w6jeAnxxJdl8UnGwgICrvc9ggoIQ7ae.FrMIsmdrfY7pRY 70Z2oUwbKz4_4YhZ1tML1l5zyFh3YfuNE_UITXMJP3D.STky7X_YhNY18b4.h9VLKEtudToSjZYj h5PSt6oHCgTt8WGKWp0GJqowEPAdENR2gMCiS8laazoP2bOW9sgjKfkdCEuxvKYtB4_lwU5ep.33 pyXjULL7a32uVsMHdB4L4wP.5o42U14WL1AWdSzeKW.166ZlSYt3OTRy2Q2uwD_ybZsaKacWgGWQ VMv0GF_OnP2h8V.hlIz5jQHQEqC5DAfiSRl3XEzC2vcKg9Jb7dnVd6yMM_xsF_9rrAC_gAm491sP 3TVOEJA4HDKbOSuE48PvWRS4vPstUEAuzEzNzuCXJNGHh8GUC7bO3nEIKkB0vXveCNNb2eEP86Ty eUHmO3mzvahoh Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:13:13 +0000 Received: by smtp415.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID fa4fd94b832587a812bb65c4ef4bbe63; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:13:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:13:09 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215101309.4920e184@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: <20200215083848.ca1d5b3d463e50da5947a381@sohara.org> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200215064911.GF1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083848.ca1d5b3d463e50da5947a381@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KPfz3ls6z4158 X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.49 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.43)[-0.430,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.57)[-0.572,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[146.179.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (6.33), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.71), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[146.179.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:13:16 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:38:48 +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:49:11 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: >> Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >> > >> > An update never ever would replace /etc/foo.conf . On Arch Linux it >> > would be stored as /etc/foo.conf.pacnew , almost all Linux distros >> > provide such a solution, but the admin is screwed, if an update >> > does add a file to /etc/foo.d/ . >> >> FreeBSD has taken this path too (looking at /etc/rc.conf.d/, >> /etc/cron.d and numerous others). > >FreeBSD has used this approach to carefully separate default >configuration from user provided configuration - the directories are >generally for sysadmins the files for the distribution. For Linux it should be like this, too, but actually it isn't. To be fair, not all Linux packagers using drop-in dirs are berserkers. A "base" package might contain a rough default configuration. For using software of a "highly specialised" package one setting of a rough default configuration _must_ be changed. With good faith the packager overrides this value by a drop-in file, since using this package's software anyway requires this special value. _But_ maybe the package wasn't installed to use the software, but just to get the documentation and the user isn't aware that a value was changed in a way, that breaks the working install. However, some packagers are berserkers, completely misusing drop-in dirs. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 09:24:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C61254355 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:24:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KPvh0lVQz41S6 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:24:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581758656; x=1584350656; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=Zj/iCHVuIYF0eTNjUJTcFjofz803Lq9iP4O3rpk0M3k=; b=s77Fent0h0NY20g+Izvp330bC/bC6cP1/1pYWVMQe+0gh8wdDt9nnsKjTW7ZZ4QkRXj/CG06FG0vYZKUdHf38T0eOuFzn8ryC8opESfnjitklNzEK0glv05ch60n3x2M313+3m0+ERxp9jcSx3UZFRPKKZhv4cPT2tPQSGatpcc= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDQ2YWE2Ni5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 04:24:09 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 04:24:07 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2tgD-000Etc-C4; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:24:05 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:24:05 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215092405.5abb6f6124c482299b7451ad@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215101309.4920e184@moonstudio> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200215064911.GF1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083848.ca1d5b3d463e50da5947a381@sohara.org> <20200215101309.4920e184@moonstudio> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KPvh0lVQz41S6 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=s77Fent0; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.29), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.57), asn: 7381(0.28), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:24:17 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:13:09 +0100 Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > However, some packagers are berserkers, completely > misusing drop-in dirs. I spy another FreeBSD advantage - the MAINTAINER field in the port's Makefile - which of course derives from the consistency that the ports framework provides. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 09:33:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CAC42546B9 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:33:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at50-3.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at50-3.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KQ5p53Gyz41v2 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:33:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at50.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1j2toq-0007FB-EQ for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:33:00 +0100 Received: from x61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id 2xZ02200M4YLlkt0BxZ08r; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:33:00 +0100 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=BnKwzfmLs7tkUX_nZTEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:33:23 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202002151033.23196.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KQ5p53Gyz41v2 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.138 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.986,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 62.179.0.0/17(1.23), asn: 6830(3.71), country: AT(-0.10)]; FORGED_MUA_KMAIL_MSGID(3.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[138.121.179.62.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:33:04 -0000 Anno domini 2020 Sat, 15 Feb 13:56:41 +0700 Victor Sudakov scripsit: > Polytropon wrote: > > > > Additionally, there's systemd-homed to re-invent home directories. > > I'm not sure if there will be systemd-linuxd and systemd-kerneld > > to re-invent everything else. ;-) > > "Among the items being explored by systemd-homed are JSON-based user > records," > > What's next, systemd-registryd? IMO that has already been implemented in GNOME3. Nik > > This is some madman run amok and nobody to stop him. > > We've known such revolutionaries in the history of Russia, like Czar > Peter I "let's change everything for the sake of change". > > > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 09:39:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6932548B2 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:39:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from boulangerie.foucry.net (boulangerie.foucry.net [62.210.131.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KQF65jWDz425L for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:39:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from tamanoir.foucry.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boulangerie.foucry.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B6F75B3A for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:17 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at foucry.net Received: from boulangerie.foucry.net ([127.0.0.1]) by tamanoir.foucry.net (mail.foucry.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BukR9e7eYMXD for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from mithril.localdomain (lfbn-dij-1-55-62.w90-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [90.62.182.62]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by boulangerie.foucry.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 90A5E75B39 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from foucry.net (mithril.foucry.net [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A4C228A1E for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:18 +0100 From: Jacques Foucry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Latest available patch version Message-ID: <20200215093918.GA2714@foucry.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KQF65jWDz425L X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=foucry.net (policy=none); spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jacques@foucry.net does not designate 62.210.131.96 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jacques@foucry.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[foucry.net : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.25)[ip: (-1.23), ipnet: 62.210.0.0/16(-0.23), asn: 12876(0.22), country: FR(0.00)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:62.210.0.0/16, country:FR]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[62.182.62.90.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:39:23 -0000 Hello friends, I MUST be stupid, there is no other explanation. If it's easy to see the current running patch level of a computer `# uname -rms FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p1 amd64` Patch level p1 in this case, I don't know where to find the latest available patch level on the net. `https://www.freebsd.org/releases/` talk about major releases, but nothing abut patch level. Where can I find this information? Thanks in advance for you time about my silly question. -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 09:41:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5A32549ED for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:41:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KQH46FyFz42DF for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:41:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581759665; x=1584351665; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=ssqWlz8K8/vVjf4sG++2BHJwxXmFht6OhDlTh8ksk8Q=; b=lPEPvzgbXsVDUlpafmnLXzaZzhPeiwVCpkff9ceJL/Voe24Cgy8KmDMF/1QhDq4K9JAQ6LFcARSBcbmmAHygl8Maru513v2GNHkJVOpz/TIyZBeyfK09K2Y5NYyuNgWiQe208s/QuydxBDCAkS4kGSBJUGzb9nVQtNY61MOXxfI= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDQ2YzIzNS5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 04:40:59 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 04:40:58 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2twW-000EwF-3D for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:40:56 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:40:55 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215094055.a66883311615c0b9c88e5b4d@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215050607.GC82559@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <89a55b95-f8cb-caef-44ef-7c8f6a4f36b2@malikania.fr> <20200215050607.GC82559@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KQH46FyFz42DF X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=lPEPvzgb; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.28), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.57), asn: 7381(0.28), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:41:05 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:06:07 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: > If this is really so, why is FreeBSD planning to migrate to Linux's ZFS > implementation? Here is why in detail. https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2018-December/072422.html Here's the tl;dr from further into the thread: The biggest thing to remember is that this is still OpenZFS, and still run by the same developers as it has been. We are just commonizing on the repo that has the most features integrated into it. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 09:51:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05ED254E5B for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:51:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.me) Received: from wnew1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wnew1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KQWX1R35z42pj for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:51:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yuripv@yuripv.me) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailnew.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F480459; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 04:51:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); 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Sat, 15 Feb 2020 04:51:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Latest available patch version To: Jacques Foucry References: <20200215093918.GA2714@foucry.net> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:51:47 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200215093918.GA2714@foucry.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KQWX1R35z42pj X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yuripv.me header.s=fm1 header.b=BF2w6OtD; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=OXFLuc3j; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yuripv@yuripv.me designates 64.147.123.26 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yuripv@yuripv.me X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[yuripv.me:s=fm1,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.23)[-0.232,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:64.147.123.26]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[165.4.155.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yuripv.me]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yuripv.me:+,messagingengine.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.04)[0.041,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[26.123.147.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.27)[ip: (-3.71), ipnet: 64.147.123.0/24(-4.92), asn: 11403(-2.68), country: US(-0.05)]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[165.4.155.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:51:53 -0000 Jacques Foucry wrote: > Hello friends, > > I MUST be stupid, there is no other explanation. > > If it's easy to see the current running patch level of a computer > > `# uname -rms > FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p1 amd64` > > Patch level p1 in this case, I don't know where to find the latest available > patch level on the net. > > `https://www.freebsd.org/releases/` talk about major releases, but nothing abut > patch level. > > Where can I find this information? While I don't know about a "this is what's fixed in this patch level" page, you can look at the SAs and see the patch level they are corrected in: https://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories.html From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 09:54:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9281C254F73 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:54:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic303-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic303-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KQZt2k6zz42y6 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:54:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: pAI1GQQVM1k4KHpzxHB5yG.oFSU.2va466hlfOYn.W5BA0Zplu_mOdnSL0kvgcg SsS6vEsGIawa8kwj0r9VeRqmVNbVAhPuk1IseFyrQcuuMMQz4m4cpYCp1beNkT.nG2xrQNpS7UPh wuwLxpwkBIqNOFaxxt_oGNyTWHUilBvZOfPE.fcv86QJhcvGzQ._ZZk7VCnfII1fJ.8kQn6iesOs N3Qd6tmNxjFjBJ.qtsstS2w8kXKucgFajtZWApZ25aWSMloKwYLVhIiEVELKGDj_XhK6uTdYF2nr IoUsB.HWXbsgMssmzJhekXz2.MWp02.fkaFrJ0uJH2NIldLVmMLxzNUFbaDhUc3BCT2yNTCcfdZt n55QVRMl624fClHQ2.WzeE_gWg9YnNRd6ILN2aY.zO_vujtcPffTJNjGfUmyHNIck9GK52w4RBOM 7g.gPUOlOmFOcooaCT7wSwCFtbtLnu8HezNJ.BiqM5BnvFG198goOJwJli.zsqeoCvALjeXHtG8A cTygoMHVEtfgoq6aYw57eDlAvBXrjWnIfkOUJYW_Jyg3aLLS3KNIwh9Alh8HmsdfOrFVKy.ZS7rq 2ksQOhuuAW6hsDPdccrmHvdrUpw2IcP8iAsOYx2vPbYepviCy4k3QTI9IveAA09EW3Mq.j6_MmcA yYBYSwcep3WUpoAsPrUMHg9fC7aYvxUuHaYHwPEcoxwkx65g85ZDO94KePwUyhGknPSQ3sDz4tBg 4pj14tWQLuoOkeJuZ_omu9hcEnyeczhrXb9c473AGnebtIn48yKadewvR1bNAX3w2av.E2sce2Xb bPF_0ncIktoIIR3Iv_yQs64D0h.yuSbhoqnlibPcOVKl2Tb7MzNRG7TNjx.tJx2S5X5hwof8Z4HX o2hRaTy8IR.8ogReUcGtcDrncp4jnU6kvNUvCx4.GYNcJxYCaCgQ02lX5c9GHMi6LvguWRytHuMN i8J9PDzglC0P6UgqoBribMipOtF6Eo1ma5OzuG7Uz8YG0vxiqJ80NFOWXq7c9LT9IBfB0ce2dtsO RdeL7I1m9ds21TpcaQrudFcn5XbEjKB_uyEtx8iTrCeswwjtfPstf_o.MEUeArhM5blXfYwQBAbG i.XrzIfe8GCw6c0Lqtif27lOhzMPNP7ggH6N7REl3Hf9jFjSKL7k5EpUa__cSxVoUbyrYWe9CYI9 ANxEfFsPRTKiUJ58fweGXX2lBUoI8LU3DzFx52BvxnLUU5fnc6GlcIJZRHwCdY30H_kEJqBreYLf RDuvoV.dNYKteakOEQIMMeeioGO6nf8_TIQgRy7EVkRKhSDTSn6D.reRroxyR.yOhO6qYEdZ3.mM 3_ewAhW2OqQThkurWUbZia7Hq67sWnG8tHtnCf4GMcMLBRAIkOI0nhToRpJIWhzmqV3Q_IBQKrCl Jxm4LM6fCTJ1M Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:54:44 +0000 Received: by smtp411.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b88835f510f4d7ef0130b07d89600906; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:43:42 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:43:41 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215104341.2d39afc1@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: <202002151033.23196.dr.klepp@gmx.at> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <202002151033.23196.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KQZt2k6zz42y6 X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.51)[-0.508,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.64)[-0.638,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[200.178.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (5.09), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[200.178.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:54:47 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:33:23 +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >Anno domini 2020 Sat, 15 Feb 13:56:41 +0700 > Victor Sudakov scripsit: >> Polytropon wrote: >> > >> > Additionally, there's systemd-homed to re-invent home directories. >> > I'm not sure if there will be systemd-linuxd and systemd-kerneld >> > to re-invent everything else. ;-) >> >> "Among the items being explored by systemd-homed are JSON-based user >> records," >> >> What's next, systemd-registryd? > >IMO that has already been implemented in GNOME3. That's utter nonsense. The dark humour of Linux soon or later suffering from a systemd-registryd, referring to MS Windows, has absolutely nothing to do with dconf/gsettings, let alone that FreeBSD as well as Linux users suffer from dconf/gsettings when using bloatware such as GNOME. Btw. before dconf, gconf already was present. This bloatware nonsense isn't new and not related to the used operating system. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 10:14:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56AE6255B36 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:14:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KR2802Ywz446s for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:14:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: _hHeosUVM1m4JpFhcVtTFt2HDElRzzR4TWio0ZD.ZaTSCWhlIGt1wGFpwqrCzQ2 Db5gnNvtFjapQLYEnO8Vb7uNiE9zqrlELAYosSvEI3uoK8n_yPJW.cc0y0fB5mwGoQ4zwXHLuow. uroKFHwE1QNKaASD1gvOqIAAZgZhtDI7uSlc_q4bApninl7NwWpewPbtjKZ2C.VO4ibi0VqZBIiF 1MKa5nRyn1NVkgkAKcRFKny61QJRWeMgBf5uDzjxVAtvSmsNP5VpJVKlBAeXEJjl7X5IcHNmdMv5 fb5XJP8o_WVRRxkI3PQXWAb26wJJe65kzlb3afTai02HfZ3LH25qTWEqSDklDO8sYW3zpIrs7Nc4 oLANTE9t9qYCfVlPWcbVMlgczjLk_eMEY3OxMWLP4zlU5Vaka203mpg00VDRJVp3f1VkEOHUPKAh _xwM_bkV0JGmoWjWee0i25pInS6oMnfd2H1uyP2KJis42jWQVuDL.HwfA9XbAKRhMcu2KNtIzm2T KmDQzd_wkkYUoBdxn9iqwYq61jrYQR7cUudCTwoHJRaZBfFUUmNMY1SH92Rvy9erASMtfiawJQ5R 0EVBBhmFRlZaExSu_UA_qNhoOnW54pTuxn0UZfUrRJ.44q1kE2Obj8A9zVyEWfpEnkfrwYtWCsIW .tF2GWHXTFvsE57faJ4B824IgJ9qlWTmCLe04gzdxj6neVP.3TM3kx5tSBRyKHLZOjES9ljZkV18 UfmfXP13o4I.szP4eaacKqERr2ZIaf5HaDCfERa7i3cUNQZZNzWgrDwqhNAu_zNFD3cgMUFdTz4x 13ejsnmCrT1O4Fi0GXuRC63Br6kAa.VVJYpZRagQXvM18BqCmKH7WX0Y.s3jayAtDPcnKIIwpFez fl2Gr4W4SGdIwCw0hBP9UFKRTHpN5pN6235e93rRkV2PO.qyOB1Lm9dOvFPx_o53YjSVAgIGleP6 oRAoLIAb5k0GQzyv02AsS8oTqu94ctcuqHTegzZasQi8Km92Hr4jR3eXGFgdBxY8U2bIiLx0AFc. gSbZQhhoq0.bwUFZWPCkpBwBqlB2pT.ycWFOTLnUioeuAYbm5_B8BBlZWUjmiI6JVYu0oXL9Y7uK NoD6EURwXeZyvL.xVYXLCwCi7zJPKsrPfX3IHUrxyCzttLV03uBCDGKIjhlUBXbVU1Nl9yUSQ_gO d5swL9fZxe.IhT1fZ84JABkJ3dXvnLeFQSs0bgauVmDMUnW8FJiZ2wjmncUTEUPNeHoo5B5npt.Q DTe_ewvHvrA7wx7biAmedllgAL4NwJvs5troAaOPlUv4En0zSJ0N9WPEeaLXsu0yjGj4cywCzEIL 8RmLA8JvipWe6uaPCX1TN.E6UoSP0mlMequ4zi.JBhbr9z.g3ITd28mjJ5Y7t9Yh1iyQTHBgtcKA tdnUYC2ZBVswm Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:14:53 +0000 Received: by smtp431.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 99219dcfd76c9c62495c6aabf6e9d3a9; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:14:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:14:46 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215111446.464284f0@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: <20200215104341.2d39afc1@moonstudio> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <202002151033.23196.dr.klepp@gmx.at> <20200215104341.2d39afc1@moonstudio> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KR2802Ywz446s X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.52)[-0.523,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.60)[-0.601,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[83.110.248.87.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (6.52), ipnet: 87.248.110.0/24(2.35), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[83.110.248.87.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:14:57 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:43:41 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:33:23 +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >>Anno domini 2020 Sat, 15 Feb 13:56:41 +0700 >> Victor Sudakov scripsit: >>> Polytropon wrote: >>> > >>> > Additionally, there's systemd-homed to re-invent home directories. >>> > I'm not sure if there will be systemd-linuxd and systemd-kerneld >>> > to re-invent everything else. ;-) >>> >>> "Among the items being explored by systemd-homed are JSON-based user >>> records," >>> >>> What's next, systemd-registryd? >> >>IMO that has already been implemented in GNOME3. > >That's utter nonsense. The dark humour of Linux soon or later suffering >from a systemd-registryd, referring to MS Windows, has absolutely >nothing to do with dconf/gsettings, let alone that FreeBSD as well as >Linux users suffer from dconf/gsettings when using bloatware such as >GNOME. Btw. before dconf, gconf already was present. This bloatware >nonsense isn't new and not related to the used operating system. PS: How to make something simple very complicated: http://gnome-evolution-general.1774414.n4.nabble.com/Show-Hide-Evolution-Menu-Bar-tt4666046.html#a4666047 However, this does affect FreeBSD as well as Linux and is completely unrelated to the used init system. GNOME probably requires tons of services started by systemd-units on Linux, but the same services needs to be started on FreeBSD, too. The culprit isn't systemd, it's neither FreeBSD or Linux. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 10:18:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28F0F255CA8 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:18:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KR6R31fsz44GN for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:18:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581761919; x=1584353919; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=7oGnff9lua1UZK/rLKJyi7ZtVisN33+ROCDJ2LTfX5s=; b=lyPG7X7EsXXP7POzUNoNL86aOXcY+s8ynNIKrCFrAu5dqcfag6l1ID0mCkvhIIkSMxFwtFH85o6LBMsJ1U7CfyBUcvDIX4GylhBHVIUeBFWiH6MxYO6+la4sOMxKRGVElbV5b+9cUFYjyPb0y+Sa5qT+Wszi5du/HwKX1Oz0iaE= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDQ3NDI1ZC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:18:34 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:18:33 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2uWt-000F4r-Gh; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:18:31 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:18:31 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Ralf Mardorf Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215101831.2fd23e1bd1d0a6ec68e4824e@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215104341.2d39afc1@moonstudio> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <202002151033.23196.dr.klepp@gmx.at> <20200215104341.2d39afc1@moonstudio> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KR6R31fsz44GN X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=lyPG7X7E; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.28), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.56), asn: 7381(0.28), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:18:40 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:43:41 +0100 Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > let alone that FreeBSD as well as > Linux users suffer from dconf/gsettings when using bloatware such as > GNOME. Quite so, I recall my first encounter with Gnome very early on. Running a build for a couple of days to find out what all the fuss was about and finishing with a panel containing nothing useful. I asked (I forget where) if that was it and was told that the real benefit was a framework that would in the future enable wondrous things - I was underwhelmed. The Andrew toolkit was far more impressive. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 10:23:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3970E256061 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:23:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KRCV1fSxz44kB for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:23:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581762182; x=1584354182; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=vOzKGWUd9yGb8jo+tFNF4PcyiTA684uIQOIu66akjI8=; b=sUeIymF/RkAVJrVULrRqJZPFyrIuOw8TLNY2hQHdQ/Ir/6KncERoHKWQ4FVRihKhJ56rDjWReuDs+UWC6ahghVRumMvxIqMULqSdM+TJ1forW1Fjn9JCz7gzfeiOgEakOyOauZZgzg4TMJIjvTnIkV9mAFjYDkYldizxY00whsw= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDQ3NjIyNC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:23:01 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:23:00 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2ubD-000F60-4f; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:22:59 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:22:59 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Jacques Foucry Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Latest available patch version Message-Id: <20200215102259.ab740925f38e71165e2e8061@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215093918.GA2714@foucry.net> References: <20200215093918.GA2714@foucry.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KRCV1fSxz44kB X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=sUeIymF/; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.28), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.56), asn: 7381(0.28), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:23:03 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:18 +0100 Jacques Foucry wrote: > Hello friends, > > I MUST be stupid, there is no other explanation. Nope just missing some details. > If it's easy to see the current running patch level of a computer > > `# uname -rms > FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p1 amd64` Not quite, that will tell you the kernel version the system may be at a later patch level that does not include kernel changes, freebsd-version will show both kernel and userland patch levels. > Patch level p1 in this case, I don't know where to find the latest > available patch level on the net. You can't - you get it by installing the release and using freebsd-update to bring in the patches. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 10:48:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B212567DD for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:48:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic312-25.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic312-25.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KRn51TDrz45n4 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:48:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: U59ZXwsVM1ltk.CiIHMqDl.Job3TLm6JYvP9U0nCnTGivthroRjTPW_0f_hZs_r VOKKBQylOLb.sqzTchL3jixrIIGxcy.df_ANtoI0_FjJaiheVy2cCXCfk_9_.ew5u9AvnNJaWgf4 7T5xeOVD5W6XpuZPv_ye_icuTVJH.4WO68dIodGtyhH5C3BbofbIKtMyJ8GCN.sjGZNT8Od91KyM OThceBmVqcvGHhY5ahHIDtfRVfTjlRG0wYFINWbwUD5mlQw93wZ8oPw2KGNyv.GMOvzTgEN1V_x0 dQXWAOyum5h6MphCWR9aAWpqqrX1Ori72dETvSMyDFLYblQe8YQDMCWAmvrUrC17vfwE7IQNGp39 kAdYUdIYG1Dh6v4P1lnpCWivnAGdqrj9rIjMqmQCO0OS4WlbV0S.q9wx6CnpK2yovkw61Kb8AI4O CTmZmiAGV8Eoc6YzjRraasYqCOgBllZlP.YTMQdh.QGfQImKymoXQD0Thl08EVRVPbx.OUPv8Heq PZm1FwJlRFnmXr3a.hkRIZbQrLgv1WX6Q5CJPUL0ftcjPyax8s5umHoZkp_6CzbWLx3W_9Q8hzXr 7VqpmyFn9YxnRr9KulyrBzElIIzPwfIGrgtkSIzqBT9pv208o.ggQXfKpbTJDl3037wenVIiAHRp tpxv2neUrm7YlIN4q_HlfpWUWMwbWrG9GQQFGxkEm7qrQ1OSpNgoaaFvN.bc1DRsite9fzodk85P 5KhY5b8r1Anml4jwHHEPdWvP8Adzk6bExPUiWfUEXTqfKPL5vsC0wuLPFRDQUDEQYQveT3pnFl1_ .oD16V0lWKW._SNQ5Zas23pbqD77QC7cpWw6kBBY8ZmNtupbR874ybz.zeum5kaDhrbUYIZ2L2iz coa9ljAQh4bV6nudBAPIBHXqnD3TsmGXvP9jWI4dz40GhtYq84Xx7SD4jXvwdT_33wmiAeO5MX5Q G6u2ooy0N5g0WctzvsEMesKkwVmbCna.1TJFE8s0lKweftaUw0042Y4SYRuRQXRIcC1RqaR.of6h gjfrJglcqyhi_JXtVjy_NNSVb64oQDPvHi.jVMPw60ZxrMxcOaPyZPymbvTjY7kq71vluvzOdZyw apdpjoZiJXaszBgAmlzj60pgjGjYYPF9CdFzvTK59BpDsQIeHej6bjNZd7RNvOg59YVSFDrPC6i8 vh4.Z.FD7sHVECjTHxfAGXbIUNwnP4hrEFvQH1Mn0EDa9SVD2lNi_r.qSkQMToI8kAwYzNHnyj7j Pjts7Sy9wyNlyx0JOSrgLUzMvAXgLaSjcKr1SbffhEKkNsKgwGc2abPu8BZ2NTx9fSSwNcOliJ9L fTu4hPxm_vOSBazCoZADAVBJFNIOUxTGPI0Kvwioh.UOWnw6I3pKQq3ZL2hazd3jyFzoPOJ1JpdW 5P6UPi2Vpnb6_3g-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:48:39 +0000 Received: by smtp420.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8313c25f88f6913077d91a48d8de91a5; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:48:35 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:48:34 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215114834.1d75a163@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KRn51TDrz45n4 X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.43)[-0.427,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.62)[-0.621,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[96.178.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[96.178.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (5.54), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:48:42 -0000 A social dispute that might has got no impact regarding technology, but could be very important depending on the employer and/or customer. The Linux mascot is a political correct penguin, while the FreeBSD mascot offends several religious humans. Sorry, but I couldn't resist. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 10:57:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A3D256AF0 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:57:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at52-1.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at52-1.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KRzS4J3Lz46TR for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:57:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at52.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1j2v8j-0009NM-DN for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:57:37 +0100 Received: from t61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id 2yxd2200F4YLlkt0ByxdV5; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:57:37 +0100 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=z7flwcGzAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=eHL4P6T5Issbh7DMBnkA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=7p6bUUQfBUrhCpEF9n3I:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:58:40 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215114834.1d75a163@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: <20200215114834.1d75a163@moonstudio> X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202002151158.40315.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KRzS4J3Lz46TR X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.985,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 62.179.0.0/17(1.19), asn: 6830(3.71), country: AT(-0.10)]; FORGED_MUA_KMAIL_MSGID(3.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[142.121.179.62.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:57:41 -0000 Anno domini 2020 Sat, 15 Feb 11:48:34 +0100 Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions scripsit: > A social dispute that might has got no impact regarding technology, but > could be very important depending on the employer and/or customer. > > The Linux mascot is a political correct penguin, while the FreeBSD > mascot offends several religious humans. > > Sorry, but I couldn't resist. OT, but anyway: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_Satan_personally_killing_people > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 11:03:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C652256D6E for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:03:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qv1-xf42.google.com (mail-qv1-xf42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KS6c3cv5z46qR for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:03:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qv1-xf42.google.com with SMTP id y2so5519216qvu.13 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:03:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:face:mime-version; bh=wJUL71fdow2D7Y+b5rW/yJ6FkTLW0W/NywqKQgu+Uds=; b=pte3oUl2NrOMlpQOG2I4o79DQGtjl8U9oemOuk/V9mVbkcYM10eEt/KAtgZee4Vla4 Z0AJbOWPwHgVql4Qm86NFujAO1PJy3vTPKcv86duQmoN9QJy/q0lEGb979kJgyvGWh3r 1TOHolmnDv//iEb1cyUX+u8xYUlT9DLK9PeNo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:face:mime-version; bh=wJUL71fdow2D7Y+b5rW/yJ6FkTLW0W/NywqKQgu+Uds=; b=S9A7oYof9L9qPh6zrUNSQM0BmmuUyxO+TjOQXOOxr/+Qv7hER6oCJ57nFDM5lzADeS H+nYjNtir6W7D6px8pqO7xa/N/pp12EmwQf9TStKt7SeyIg2vMXi9x79HLnxXoF45+t4 xGgAHOrppQpQ1X1oOXeJ1xPGj7Nh+5UnBwhWsv6UccVgqSD+Nzc45J8G8LpaI7IUY2Ok E7sBDpo52zTZF7T3KSK30VSr00qeUv3UUvj+4+TwCsOvbs7RSdHIaaOeWu4AtE9+C1YY PM5p8uHdDeW3OuYqtgDFjLOzAkLoqNwRlIOjxEdp2NR/rjIjaoANqqRQ+obvb8dIf9JE J+eg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXO6sTPMjIO3oiqVLAW+8mOMbWE5TqBCFvthTIS4Zpup8FK4p/s zmXIlGYGivFSRd4EUJeX3Tlypl2tV3Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyXCpUE1V9ePAdq7lTMWZgdWz9sLHu+qitpF0pIpuGAN4BtCuu6snQN9H7AHk5ggZ3RxT1AKQ== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:c389:: with SMTP id o9mr5912614qvi.232.1581764630469; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-225-250.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.225.250]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k29sm5125266qtu.54.2020.02.15.03.03.49 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from scorpio (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jerry@seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48KS6X5MpHz1XsV for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:03:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:03:40 -0500 From: Jerry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215060340.14eabadc@scorpio> In-Reply-To: <20200215060818.GC1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214150126.GA1219@x1> <20200214113358.225faf5e@scorpio> <20200215060818.GC1482@admin.sibptus.ru> Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.3) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAD1BMVEXHx8eCek7////4+fjWs03LZvEkAAAB+UlEQVQ4jY2UC5LbIAyGhfEB0JoDULgAAR8ANrr/mfpL2Em2087UExyiT+hNKJfesVrGB99ri0UvkAtW73+CnBPZs90AL0U5V5N7FXcsuvQBfIFYt3bGQFNQaMaWdVsu0Jd8Hy5+J/G6h5BWRDlJFOLj5OiziWh5SCwcHYd9MnvzQmapxglJFBFmlqC2zLmTCLkKOeprtAWciOlOFcoUFvEALScXI9Gc0ezsItEXRJVXSrlUyMMVU84L2JMADiitXx9gV98tcUs0EG675QWZcPz+xUd1+ygfQGNin+I4Q5APcIqFS1F2IYClXSkh7/NZKSBb4bGcI/XgEL+MTo5kRtSYlhyV1UqhhS5ECbTCPSF7EE4MbSTvomkqqFGGg+3J2nW83JcB9EK+gu/nII/WuYq+GHBwvYWGpmtFs2uPOBQU1JMqB3WM9hK3Mp8KEu2TKNh4IDCPlEu+wPAhbBcY7qouaumcR/gakYbMqxbUCwUZNL21BDkeq3XUs+mJnSB5uu0CeYHdbGEaub06SFalGjDoCTnmF6haV9oe6AVrzhfo/bFAJ23TZcgGrqqtuT3Uya2/JtHiPyrOHT8AjpANqczL0H0/eg0WmTxf+vet7YT5jiF/gt6vy1Zuz8VEdF//91Pet/bfoN8zrsPeF3j/yXT1+pc/mf8FvwFLRp5BkxdhkQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/GzWiDkrH5=aX_ZFlmqIXIpp"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KS6c3cv5z46qR X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=pte3oUl2; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.33 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[250.225.109.174.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; IP_SCORE(-0.57)[ip: (0.80), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-1.90), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.05)]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:03:54 -0000 --Sig_/GzWiDkrH5=aX_ZFlmqIXIpp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:08:18 +0700, Victor Sudakov stated: >Jerry wrote: >> On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:01:40 +0100, Julien Cigar stated: >> =20 >> >Of course nothing is perfect (12.0-RELEASE was a very problematic >> >release for us due to the various iflib issues and PR 236220), but >> >from experience FreeBSD is a lot easier to manage and maintain than >> >any of the Linux-es I used, especially if you deploy everything >> >with (VNET) jails, ZFS, and a custom poudriere repository (branch >> >based) =20 >>=20 >> 12.0-RELEASE is more than slightly problematic on my machine. I >> cannot even get it to run correctly. SEE: >>=20 >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D237666 =20 > >I skipped 12.0 and am rather happy with 12.1 (both on real hardware >and in VMs). Case in point, it was the 12.1 version that failed to perform properly. I never tried to use the 12.0 version. I usually skip the first version of anything to avoid problems like this that I and others have encountered. I would have thought that a problem like this bug would have been squashed before the 12.1 version was released. Once again, the fallacy of assuming anything has been exposed. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/GzWiDkrH5=aX_ZFlmqIXIpp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl5H0AwACgkQOHMGOIfe xWRLkwf8DX3tgfSxRrh52v3mH5OlHkuavp+19f8bVF1tS648/OTmLnYf3F/G1P3K ljy9tsoITd4lkRSQYFCap5zchnPqrGjD6njtt87HF2IJmPmz0h2j9wMRMRHNS5/h /BTt7PUzeS/8CyScm93etpONZEXJkVyLSkDoA8d4ySqNSfMhS79Pvc+3hIIwHetG w45oQWtnfuqBl+Bcia++2rC6iJsquD/vnL4ig/sS863WSCDZLL8xG9Qpmdv1dLKv tnnJyIgSQePfFD5vslaop1psIFoxw+G7ODk3ce8wqU1rjY8Xx8tprpo6zUd4Gc9J s0hws4fE0UOiqnrQZlNv5U70Y+5IYA== =H+nz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/GzWiDkrH5=aX_ZFlmqIXIpp-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 11:19:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E093B257435 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:19:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic301-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic301-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KSSG3C4Rz47PJ for ; 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Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:19:08 +0000 Received: by smtp401.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 705edc02e37a6bd1c494dfd75f5838af; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:19:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:19:02 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215121902.55ef128b@moonstudio> In-Reply-To: <202002151158.40315.dr.klepp@gmx.at> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215114834.1d75a163@moonstudio> <202002151158.40315.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KSSG3C4Rz47PJ X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.51)[-0.509,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.58)[-0.578,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.176.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (6.40), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.176.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:19:11 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:58:40 +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >Anno domini 2020 Sat, 15 Feb 11:48:34 +0100 > Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions scripsit: >> A social dispute that might has got no impact regarding technology, >> but could be very important depending on the employer and/or >> customer. >> >> The Linux mascot is a political correct penguin, while the FreeBSD >> mascot offends several religious humans. >> >> Sorry, but I couldn't resist. > >OT, but anyway: >https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people >https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_Satan_personally_killing_people I'm missing legal and rational evidence for the existence of {a,} God as well as the existence of Satan. Just assuming one or the other should exist, I'm also missing evidences for killing humans, that really existed, let alone that just way too many ring-the-bell-and-run-away tricks are already a no-go. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 11:32:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81438257A4A for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:32:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from 2.mo177.mail-out.ovh.net (2.mo177.mail-out.ovh.net [178.33.109.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KSls2pZTz487v for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:32:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from player726.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.110.115.143]) by mo177.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F04811510D for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:23:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from defert.com (ip-146-0-189-108.dyn.luxfibre.pt.lu [146.0.189.108]) (Authenticated sender: 20.100@defert.com) by player726.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45666F52FE97 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:23:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:23:37 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 15329127235822880772 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrjedvgdeftdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfqggfjpdevjffgvefmvefgnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucehtddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepgghinhgtvghnthcufffghffgtffvuceovddtrddutddtseguvghfvghrthdrtghomheqnecukfhppedtrddtrddtrddtpddugeeirddtrddukeelrddutdeknecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpqdhouhhtpdhhvghlohepphhlrgihvghrjedviedrhhgrrdhovhhhrdhnvghtpdhinhgvtheptddrtddrtddrtddpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepfhhrvggvsghsugdqqhhuvghsthhiohhnshesfhhrvggvsghsugdrohhrgh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KSls2pZTz487v X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=defert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 20.100@defert.com designates 178.33.109.80 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=20.100@defert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[108.189.0.146.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ptr:mail-out.ovh.net]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.999,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[defert.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[80.109.33.178.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(0.71)[ipnet: 178.32.0.0/15(1.50), asn: 16276(2.07), country: FR(0.00)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:178.32.0.0/15, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:32:42 -0000 IMO, the real problem with systemd has nothing to do with the supposed mental disorder affecting its developer, but with the fact that systemd control the behavior of all system services and this is what has made me look for alternatives to Linux. A very concrete example: the DHCP client of a machine doesn't behave the same way with or without systemd. When run without systemd (e.g under Devuan), the DHCP client honors all the features described in the standard. When run under the control of systemd (e.g under Debian), it just takes the IP address, netmask and gateway from the DHCP server. Simply stated, the behavior of a machine under the control of systemd is no longer predictable, you have to forget standards and RFCs and learn the systemd way. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 13:32:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6135623AF0E for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:32:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.xs4all.nl [83.161.133.58]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "cloudzeeland.nl", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KWPf281Xz4Fjl for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:32:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.nl [10.10.10.36]) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E4C10BC8F4 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:31:58 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1581773518; bh=YGAJXk1GjgAmBVpDwi7/FQEHAPNkcZHx8ApPq33ps5M=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=BX5gSey2dfWLcs0dCsiWdv0nZfVGmKZ/5HCsLuqRElrFHtPAO38JJ2itEcwjLSQ5w zEHEHZ6P3sqY5++hbRaXW5uwl3zuKSRSlQL/tGE+V4hHGWhiqvSKlUlF+YRmMcl0nr EBkcdWaQZAaulH8LQHiXWIwLaHlqt2i1NLNUDmvI= Received: from [10.10.10.34] (pion1.rpicloud.nl [82.176.127.71]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8BC3A10BC8F3 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:31:57 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1581773517; bh=YGAJXk1GjgAmBVpDwi7/FQEHAPNkcZHx8ApPq33ps5M=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=zGnEn5tl+KgNs7R/RCawq9ACA2+mJyNZjHolWxAPykeW+Hb2LUsGMFn4iGHtmc3Gs FNa5+OpgXsBVRi8IOW7Qr3iMbdzNkGcYlXM0S1xHpqWuRHqvJQneW2sd0rtAYNPbax XZaFYu1JmVobhxUNbTUBgmdoMmUC9h0Ne1G4FXjQ= To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Jos Chrispijn Subject: Removal script Organization: Userland rocks! Message-ID: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:31:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP on poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KWPf281Xz4Fjl X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=BX5gSey2; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=zGnEn5tl; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl designates 83.161.133.58 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.77 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cloudzeeland.nl:s=cloud]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl:+]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.27)[ipnet: 83.160.0.0/14(-1.36), asn: 3265(-0.03), country: NL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3265, ipnet:83.160.0.0/14, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:32:07 -0000 I am looking for a way to remove a nested subdirectory in a directory. Example: directory /mysources has a certain number of subdirectories which contain subdirectory 'nonsense' in various subdirectories, which contain also subdirectory 'nonsense', etc. What I would like to do is that the script removes all 'nonsense' folders in the base /mysources. Can you pls tell me how I can do that savest? Thanks! /jos From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 13:36:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C2023B377 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:36:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from colo1.denninger.net (colo1.denninger.net [104.236.120.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KWVP4WM3z4Fwk for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:36:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from denninger.net (ip68-1-57-197.pn.at.cox.net [68.1.57.197]) by colo1.denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35507211082 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.10.25] (D15.Denninger.Net [192.168.10.25]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE3C0244868 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:36:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Removal script To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> From: Karl Denninger Autocrypt: addr=karl@denninger.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBF1Rd+gBEACmLAH7SAzdQq57ZN56QQEy0jDFfH5BvGOMZgCaP+Y5lJQ5u9WphCoCALMs Rg0o1Q9DRNWgUmy/cgsxioXAEzZFXXzOHPJhwplVOgfjxnoByD5KQhWG8Owm9QmATdtiZPSV 4UYVNUIbZv7btSnnAXysG2OUHajYS5PVeFQxFbhNFq/SS8VaXr1WEVTFa8NFKp2W3/KY1A+U KKDUlYwnOauK3fnY9chF2IRSoxAbBJFrJ4lPGz04HtzNos4Q9CBfTphKcdFjcPntNS9wrqs3 sm+7hLNTH9B2Kj6aekG5UhD03eyP+gevTgBy51RL6ULzI13Kc4aeyOByuBXrA8D2m2Ee67iy 4+ZSxM9Wn1gQce5624OWzCYIGBH2r75Bshp1KHKu36N2rN//kyKYnwl/z6UZB/S9cMUFKZgL gFx7QxpFX/HvSiBcPfcGS0meModpg6qma7/2jRoQAXacslpiT+uOfRGspNbnglkbw435RzX/ kMUclJQNZBBBUpPiGjVCjeBTiAfN8TyjS+pWzwxNCUZWbYO5xVaS0gbIhgVNoBOGn1rdTsdA PP65SRjaoL5KY6bzkkzrXLB2Djx8/p4vr0qIqxIQWbewJq3xKyKGiqI46ae77BF7k0B++Ndx g9K9UeWKl/iJ0eoI0ftR+xH3aIHTU1Or3j/tj4j8Z0tnVSyt1wARAQABzSNLYXJsIERlbm5p bmdlciA8a2FybEBkZW5uaW5nZXIubmV0PsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCXVF36AIbIwUJCWYBgAcLCQgH AwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEG8twBXrj1l4swkP/3uOzRxW16K6H4JIEIRMUEbt nxDhmk+gR/7H9phg7HtvR7i22QejZX1N1NHcGRNmBwLshWVjJkHKhCE/AM8Cf9XyaV2ft6qn g1xK6NuhapxVuaaMeCVPUzsPkTcR+JMl72ZR4Q+mJMVQButCITekmr7aIzIZ80fF0t86rnq+ O74ZGt0SAMsLV/GAKlIw8fGMi9Xj4OKDgqmxTnIoV4+0mpo26W957pnlOrjN3/6VqWUyAdHH DkyqsuP/9jx2f5pZCcD7X04+93GI+sGb1s6BOFRHq2oJgs6W0z0nPx5Ks9MDDgSQlxXAryje 17WphTR7DWn1BeF3Y8AhRkzc2+Mgc5s1i2fPe6YwvksDNOEyNXIvFV7chwDQYb0Q3I8XsoHu 2WUjXp0kVokobJPdVdY55nbY+brezweRJMiEpFtGOmoUekQWlI5KS1kE8+Xuqpm+MSxEpqY8 5ncPt0lekOrICGajlOotkUK86iVemlW1rMzMc5Xwp9j8oxa+bRtGD6u1rYz4i+qIdE+GSCBy 1nnHN/my0nefhQyHXr8wGVEbyiMZCten9fm1iXpBr0jY+tvtbo8XqZQG7Lr+3kSO6VUgc8kW IPf2HxIV7AnGUN+ddZGCcPPhb2mY/Yy7si54wJFj6YoG+/+rNjF9F5d8WeLoeUWczgHTvZmS o6F7UhjjuwzgzsFNBF1Rd+gBEADNVFS8nQ+kpKOpgtP+f3bCVxHAm7eHMbX6oew5yZiQwfD+ 1RWNWLVOMeTt7G2e5HsHpJOUwFUJhbDb0omB0r38xTSVSAig9kmUfb7tTMJG2bG7WfWykBOM WIZ4OhCf+ISv9dUkjNgx4ionWotFxwDiPRwWumVQ7WYZmRZlhDWMiaHgKvBrjJ7Y6GKPRbQc 5/0Qz9xGhXKlFxDQrrSMkyRThIOxXqdfD9z3rEsV3ZwOojzNsnkIImnQMKyIAR0FBQop34G9 wDQi7fxk8wGIfDszwfR4oAdDdPGq4gcAvE7Fd3xKyNpGyjSED5szoaFjldaZSXQIffquSUvy sFCTTLRIso5Dn9uQgi57gIv+5mnyKBfm2Z2P6pEQPSt073TED9rS0+JpniJL7rKRVpO5niqw sQJS6ht+JF88rXro+SiwxD/KeDpTuuJ10+ohLVi1Y+X82X7BIQEhqtFp9FVJSds4o/eNyaHd SoqfoeWMy3EV+rdJ3DneXcPS1BgxO57Rko5Hx3NUSVK83ovFb+Ofes9SLNdqNu3xAUcfpRdS DyxzpVbCq6Y2CIojiaweiYe5BOBhmR9OPGhqP8YD7GukYmQufAVuOrIVyctBlVPHgMBb+UX+ ItYXuX4weSJWLOsmM45xd/EYvBq2DWFpKlyihoktNzTGqxGsNeG7gCOEUTAnUwARAQABwsFl BBgBCAAPBQJdUXfoAhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEG8twBXrj1l4Dm0P/iEx2gIHSOnvgpG799Vf2RM0 7gPbDWzDaw8YTV49H+VTOqq7RlT52aO0QfNAmtppX0V1/5f30fuSCF46NWnYGu35P/LvOAPb sLbeWCyJy4GOPN4cjsBMbgmooGdl24RdcvGMmY177o7oOSWBqXfhAj+YA6r+hEar1qxqLgwB Gy8wAId4qYSQhN/FxiQbyUs2tPAI6Wn/41pI7Hu6WgmRGpZrBv8HhVV9Gl7jallSsS/g+fhu WRbDKCknUS5SX3+w2AUFr4kf62gSSxXBxd075KnViV9c0sraAPI31XbM5QUc0Xssfaqs6Srr z4MjKaLhb7GD8C1JwI23PuGdFvk9WK996UvIyjdWIE99VSlg/5gEKkXzwx7oysrSG9BqkfGf I4addK55xRQPul0V3s2LtDoQTxg3VHrL6wrvGhYUcTHLmlsvNx1EOb5a3xBT+SUK/Ltq08LW YcmNbU/G217MlfvDJYHCb0uOtxqJFm8RiZGj2eEcLgvyWnlWCD2rfP4EqCxmpr3Ic725FiQR cBbdTV3clTgclhBG3TA9dxVjfZDcatz5cFBwXP8k5Yn9tNl90T2r79V4SNh1mCHtGTSEf449 qz9tm7EguLchjmoirJTuiipZKcalcHAHtz4VPUykdXsrfEJTzdEcujzqF6v/9CY+DjpAd3et Z0vw7xC5tS+b Message-ID: <792c5f22-5851-7419-f9a1-fa40df265f1c@denninger.net> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:36:06 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-512; boundary="------------ms020404030804040202060409" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KWVP4WM3z4Fwk X-Spamd-Bar: ------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=denninger.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of karl@denninger.net designates 104.236.120.189 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=karl@denninger.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-7.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[denninger.net,none]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~,4:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:104.236.64.0/18, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.57)[ip: (-9.84), ipnet: 104.236.64.0/18(-4.42), asn: 14061(1.47), country: US(-0.05)]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[197.57.1.68.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11] X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:36:14 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020404030804040202060409 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/15/2020 07:31, Jos Chrispijn wrote: > I am looking for a way to remove a nested subdirectory in a directory. > > Example: > directory /mysources has a certain number of subdirectories which > contain subdirectory 'nonsense' in various subdirectories, which > contain also subdirectory 'nonsense', etc. > > What I would like to do is that the script removes all 'nonsense' > folders in the base /mysources. > Can you pls tell me how I can do that savest? Thanks! > > /jos Well, there's no completely "safe" way that might not nuke something you don't intend, but.... find . -type d -name 'nonsense' -exec rm -rf {} \; Starts in the current directory, walks the tree, anything that is a directory and has the name "nonsense" is "rm -rf'd". Just don't be wrong about any of those directories being or having in them something you don't want nuked.=C2=A0 "rm -rf" does exactly what you= tell it to and it's entirely possible to really hose yourself with it (e.g. "rm -rf /" will do exactly what you think it might.) --=20 Karl Denninger karl@denninger.net /The Market Ticker/ /[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]/ --------------ms020404030804040202060409 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgMFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC DdgwggagMIIEiKADAgECAhMA5EiKghDOXrvfxYxjITXYDdhIMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMIGL MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEQMA4GA1UECAwHRmxvcmlkYTESMBAGA1UEBwwJTmljZXZpbGxlMRkw FwYDVQQKDBBDdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgTExDMRgwFgYDVQQLDA9DdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgQ0ExITAf BgNVBAMMGEN1ZGEgU3lzdGVtcyBMTEMgMjAxNyBDQTAeFw0xNzA4MTcxNjQyMTdaFw0yNzA4 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SMTP id l7mr6380908qvv.142.1581774086333; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 05:41:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> <792c5f22-5851-7419-f9a1-fa40df265f1c@denninger.net> In-Reply-To: <792c5f22-5851-7419-f9a1-fa40df265f1c@denninger.net> From: Michael Schuster Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:41:14 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Removal script To: Karl Denninger Cc: freeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KWcX4SkHz4GFM X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ksUPF8Wq; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of michaelsprivate@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=michaelsprivate@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; 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List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:41:33 -0000 I would suggest find /mysources - type d -name nonsense ... HTH Michael On Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 14:36 Karl Denninger wrote: > > On 2/15/2020 07:31, Jos Chrispijn wrote: > > I am looking for a way to remove a nested subdirectory in a directory. > > > > Example: > > directory /mysources has a certain number of subdirectories which > > contain subdirectory 'nonsense' in various subdirectories, which > > contain also subdirectory 'nonsense', etc. > > > > What I would like to do is that the script removes all 'nonsense' > > folders in the base /mysources. > > Can you pls tell me how I can do that savest? Thanks! > > > > /jos > > Well, there's no completely "safe" way that might not nuke something you > don't intend, but.... > > find . -type d -name 'nonsense' -exec rm -rf {} \; > > Starts in the current directory, walks the tree, anything that is a > directory and has the name "nonsense" is "rm -rf'd". > > Just don't be wrong about any of those directories being or having in > them something you don't want nuked. "rm -rf" does exactly what you > tell it to and it's entirely possible to really hose yourself with it > (e.g. "rm -rf /" will do exactly what you think it might.) > > -- > Karl Denninger > karl@denninger.net > /The Market Ticker/ > /[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]/ > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 13:41:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BA623B544 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:41:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yasu@utahime.org) Received: from gate.utahime.jp (gate.utahime.jp [183.180.29.210]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KWck0NTRz4GHT for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:41:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yasu@utahime.org) Received: from eastasia.home.utahime.org (eastasia.home.utahime.org [192.168.174.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by gate.utahime.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C46EC5189E for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:41:29 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=utahime.org; s=maybe2019112701; t=1581774089; bh=sVPrS+8MG9bQiLa8gsCzRHY1GyYesZiCgDuuSouglmE=; h=Date:To:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:References; b=so7tYKFETxhuh/yR2+/BxXH/A79fuBkWUUqYoOIBFKd8Zgao2YQz/rYDdJ6hyqKKB vnD5K5DiwkTCka103pb1KaT5gb76PUJ2cuFRnhK8ZCPDYQX+M466ZnfB0yeIzM7Nem mDr5zEv9aXzz70SawZFPSTi93R+qkSgJwUCBYe55+Vg+xpV6snfMt/15My2ZCZrS+M O5NnaFYfuO5DehQ/VPwP4Pnxr+ZrHTbKQBlmPfTAzwxuw4mnlyxyV1jC+tVDZzUvbm kACwL4KD/DnHXq1dwf2CHBU8Xr9O3M7ajP+a2MuU0T55439W8CVXebcofFQK9jzZDp 4YGxfx4f6lKAg== Received: from localhost (rolling.home.utahime.org [192.168.174.11]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by eastasia.home.utahime.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D912ACB79; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:41:25 +0900 (JST) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at eastasia.home.utahime.org Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:40:40 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20200215.224040.865767451214861597.yasu@utahime.org> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removal script From: Yasuhiro KIMURA In-Reply-To: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> References: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KWck0NTRz4GHT X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=utahime.org header.s=maybe2019112701 header.b=so7tYKFE; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yasu@utahime.org designates 183.180.29.210 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yasu@utahime.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.29 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[utahime.org:s=maybe2019112701]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.76)[-0.763,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a:spf-authorized.utahime.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.913,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[utahime.org]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[utahime.org:+]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.38)[ip: (0.21), ipnet: 183.180.0.0/16(0.11), asn: 2519(1.55), country: JP(0.04)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2519, ipnet:183.180.0.0/16, country:JP]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:41:43 -0000 From: Jos Chrispijn Subject: Removal script Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:31:59 +0100 > I am looking for a way to remove a nested subdirectory in a directory. > > Example: > directory /mysources has a certain number of subdirectories which > contain subdirectory 'nonsense' in various subdirectories, which > contain also subdirectory 'nonsense', etc. > > What I would like to do is that the script removes all 'nonsense' > folders in the base /mysources. > Can you pls tell me how I can do that savest? Thanks! Does 'nonsence' have subdirecties and should they also be removed? If answer is yes, try find /mysources -type -d -name nonsense -exec rm -rf {} + --- Yasuhiro KIMURA From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 13:42:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A460D23B814 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:42:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KWdC3ySNz4GR0 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:42:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581774128; x=1584366128; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=QTYOMTP+5C86uWXsdWVVeaEPxTwy8O4dd0pCULFVEzM=; b=vGFEuHpluwi0khLM3XoGzWaplXykNV/uATfKYMpl6xGpY2q0legfycKyQSM5PEf7WTmMg4QPkelRL7K3Gr7amm9AJEFlL/9TOIiRyVFr1/2mdiGuXChUQ4kKId6Gmz2rPk2dR+yuxAnvw3FYzuVpllewU2QWDgGNjl7P+1t+Zjk= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDQ5ZjAwOC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.h.in.socketlabs.com (r2.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:41:57 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:41:56 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2xhj-000FiO-CJ for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:41:55 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:41:55 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removal script Message-Id: <20200215134155.6f8e6f901c9175dbdbef7808@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> References: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KWdC3ySNz4GR0 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=vGFEuHpl; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.27), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.55), asn: 7381(0.27), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:42:08 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:31:59 +0100 Jos Chrispijn wrote: > I am looking for a way to remove a nested subdirectory in a directory. > > Example: > directory /mysources has a certain number of subdirectories which > contain subdirectory 'nonsense' in various subdirectories, which contain > also subdirectory 'nonsense', etc. > > What I would like to do is that the script removes all 'nonsense' > folders in the base /mysources. > Can you pls tell me how I can do that savest? Thanks! If the nonesense directories are not empty and you want them gone complete with contents then: find /mysources -name nonesense -type d -depth -exec rm -rf {} \; If they're empty then: find /mysources -name nonesense -type d -delete -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 14:10:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A98023C3DB for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:10:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aimass@yabarana.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com (mail-lj1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KXFw43rTz4Hnq for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:10:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aimass@yabarana.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id x14so13819876ljd.13 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:10:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fvZpk2CAAgDnilesjHTi4Il8PG3k3SlHqsWM8SepJ8s=; b=PBn2v2OCPhfDGc/6VH1aOe/xBVqyZqkMCxotUlh+zu35X8kYxxoID5ryKMBfaxtpFm Qyyi5YtnEE3Zx8vxeLBHJEiLYU5RFmDKSjrP/CZF0BEKOVcoQrwDhwW8LvEZ0AhJCo2c Ou68JAlhVuapX4nttdmRy9gUri2bn3+Zhc6zPQztECjiWAVSiRxzWpZjyhMV8UOBQo3a cAGry5kgF0NOLQohnTEBtS04sklaCFinI5qfJnwhsThrdqaCZVDBCFbcNPDgjt7R7Iaz 52gZ1PvVrueq7psJ4GUNoHcOQ/jIFdiexLlFRRx93Jlb8Ru+lAmRbI32iYVtUTVhdrOM eUUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fvZpk2CAAgDnilesjHTi4Il8PG3k3SlHqsWM8SepJ8s=; b=H4UI7nE8121vj2RyQM8ogB2/vH+eTIhIJAEiaDaYkaC7Pb7g5gCgCCj0xKmm8/y206 wKZ9uDZZ9FsMukyaBvRXkLhIskKexXC+lJCHdnvOYrsI977avRYWOKNbblp12hZSG7Ax LQAAB+eMjfrRoJKiXFfFgHGo+0P/N7lNMBq8uJ09J4ahdLLIGd6drZyGTTFoCv/Va9ao EeqDCPlNe6u6ppWT7Okgjw8+S+SfGKxdl11TYyygWrX5GiXY4PRE2vO/b3G0c/zqgPfQ EkRvg7/SwvT7jZiMHQ5MPenbAC8XWU5awBQCCwAyQ8OQHT2YYtGYp4jR0eksZ/GCd3CJ jprA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW6TGpaXemJBW9lKHum1eMHKP7rXvCehSDjjVUen4PanHaIt4vI LDmpkGO0sSrhwdkKKYU0mgbNDRBmdeawNIsBIl5xaLXdGTLGLA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyJShxe1XiLZ1I+xNf9rYErskFFb1CJPIwUyxWbNSjWo6p3AU2W+eCzz2IqJJhvR/xoHIoY920LCkeXnpM13wk= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:580c:: with SMTP id m12mr5015041ljb.252.1581775826715; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:10:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215052620.GA1482@admin.sibptus.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200215052620.GA1482@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Alejandro Imass Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:10:15 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: Victor Sudakov Cc: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KXFw43rTz4Hnq X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=PBn2v2OC; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aimass@yabarana.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aimass@yabarana.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.18 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yabarana.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[9.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.68)[ip: (-9.23), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.42), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:10:29 -0000 On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 12:26 AM Victor Sudakov wrote: [...] > > I didn't really (and still don't) know the circumstances of your work > > environment. Failing that, this is really a chalk vs cheese scenario. > > I find both FreeBSD and Linux technically valid solutions (and I throw > > NetBSD into the mix). One has to be pragmatic and evaluate solutions > > against problems first. Advocating an OS over another one without > > taking care of circumstances doesn't make good advocacy. > > Fine, let's apply your approach, it could yield interesting results. Can > we find 3-4 real world scenarios where FreeBSD cannot be replaced by > Linux without important negative technical and business consequences of > said replacement? > > Other than a case of unacceptability of the GNU license for some legal > reason, I cannot imagine such a scenario. > > Unfortunatly, I've seen lots of reverse cases where Linux cannot be > replaced by FreeBSD. Docker and friends come to mind first. > > Not sure about 3 or 4 but at least 2 high profile cases come to mind that disprove your thesis: Netflix and WhatsApp: https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/testimonial/netflix/ https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/testimonial/whatsapp/ Also a lot of the use of FreeBSD is not well advertised, it's sort of like Perl (now I am starting to think why my favorite OS and Programming Language happen to share a lot of traits when it comes to popularity). Take for example the extensive use in the US DOD etc. except for the MITRE Report you will not see this kind of usage advertised. FreeBSD's license allows proprietary usage and that is not advertised either. Just like it's not advertised how Perl is the duct tape that holds a lot of the US financial sector together. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 14:12:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CEC823C6B3 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:12:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gregv.net) Received: from aurora.gregv.net (aurora.gregv.net [192.111.144.138]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48KXJb3WQ4z4J9J for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:12:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gregv.net) Received: by aurora.gregv.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E2A5711; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:12:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:12:38 -0500 From: Greg Veldman To: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215141238.GY1879@aurora.gregv.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KXJb3WQ4z4J9J X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@gregv.net has no SPF policy when checking 192.111.144.138) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@gregv.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.72 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gregv.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.73)[0.730,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.96)[0.964,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31863, ipnet:192.111.144.0/20, country:US]; IP_SCORE(1.12)[ipnet: 192.111.144.0/20(2.06), asn: 31863(3.62), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:12:48 -0000 On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 12:23:37PM +0100, Vincent DEFERT wrote: > IMO, the real problem with systemd has nothing to do with the supposed > mental disorder affecting its developer, but with the fact that systemd > control the behavior of all system services and this is what has made me > look for alternatives to Linux. The insanity of systemd is a large part of what convinced me to migrate all my personal machines from GNU/Linux to FreeBSD a couple of years ago. I use the term insanity loosely, to cover everything from certain design decisions to how the change was implemented on several popular distros... > A very concrete example: the DHCP client of a machine doesn't behave the > same way with or without systemd. When run without systemd (e.g under > Devuan), the DHCP client honors all the features described in the > standard. When run under the control of systemd (e.g under Debian), it > just takes the IP address, netmask and gateway from the DHCP server. > > Simply stated, the behavior of a machine under the control of systemd is > no longer predictable, you have to forget standards and RFCs and learn > the systemd way. Here's another concrete example: just yesterday I spent literally three hours debugging a post action hook function in a popular PHP application. This function was, at the end of processing a record, supposed to update certain data relating to that record into a PostgreSQL database. Everything worked exactly as it was supposed to when running all the steps individually by hand, but when run through the production webserver environment it simply refused to fire. After much poking around, I figured out that a recent update to the system changed the systemd unit file for the php-fpm process to set PrivateTmp=true, which was causing the prod environment to no longer be able to see the PostgreSQL socket which lived in /tmp (the real /tmp). I know of no words to fully describe the magnitude of this facepalm, which was foisted upon me with no notice or warning as part of applying routine patches to the operating system. -- Greg Veldman freebsd@gregv.net From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 14:16:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD72A23C850 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:16:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aimass@yabarana.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KXP26BXqz4JKs for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:16:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aimass@yabarana.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id w1so13855729ljh.5 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:16:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TQQSxTzOQneYGhhz04fi1kHXCZjuQh3p4b/Fhv+bdu4=; b=aakH5jOoHrQMjJtZwgz3F/sz2XdSSfeQQTa00WF6r1f2AK6m5m7hVEg+t0u8WtMgfD eCmHeL5+tPoAar/sGbvnRgqfwLiBgmLDgxWQWvjciCRUTbnf8ndF/B+GSyXYyUv/EDpc uvKenu49+23cDk5/CAhn+akS7XzVEwx0f/CTzCDq6eHuVuKpDPcSS362Zmu1aPPW3nHI jCsHGuY3uZrm6oiDINtYdvQ22iHACDG/6+nEJg31AAS7qkcM75nQzfwGfHAYLYA7hArP /czKX50AtpV6KcnhUkzT+Q+jgG8l9my/QnYSuXEhpILB51/kvfdzcfY+dc3KPIGUwGJy ibRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TQQSxTzOQneYGhhz04fi1kHXCZjuQh3p4b/Fhv+bdu4=; b=eB1r260F/vovyE62MqxreFUxtB5UbdbUywu8gxA+MQedC7LXNqnMyiotzIfwzJ4Vbp E9OM8zZOZg4oQ0++y8BKrdogThU+rdSyxUa9Y84hgyluhqujNeIPq+sJgGO4fbppo2Rj eApkwON/rsOPRBD+t5R1s55kRJWPQ/oxH6jV/OUM3gru9VrKv6WMeJcYs1apq9Pk/i7W LEwiZATWI4vOyHIT0y2ZgLfdiLA23kLcyTvKXhihqkZrxqcmRl9P8nmjHWWu2o6pDl5n RxoTYBDNQCjaBKuk6AaSLFaAz6x+rJU+EOZxTBmAbAwHHvj4LEWRtsymI8M0jjI39U8Z KVHA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWdp8QRd/dwOXFic9WHzW36jsw4McudtPyisf8b8nnzN5K6ig/a oj61S4ehTIpUDBFyxHV/n+bt3c7goZ0VD9pz5ll0l3F85hE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxhWOdTevI306sjNvf2yTHpP/mkypIltEvFAmjWgGnIQXj9v8BJhSYl8dmpETtnz1SC6J4SZBdnP1vx23EtK3I= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9218:: with SMTP id k24mr4877764ljg.262.1581776196872; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:16:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Alejandro Imass Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:16:25 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: "James B. Byrne" Cc: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KXP26BXqz4JKs X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=aakH5jOo; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aimass@yabarana.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aimass@yabarana.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.14 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[yabarana.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yabarana-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[d.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.64)[ip: (-9.05), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.42), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:16:39 -0000 On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 4:02 PM James B. Byrne wrote: > > > On Fri, February 14, 2020 11:27, Alejandro Imass wrote: > > > IMHO, BSD could invest in taking projects like EzJail (plus ZFS) to make > > this functionality native and EASY, provide an images database and the > > infrastructure to provide a NATIVE, bare metal equivalent to Docker + > > Terraform. In other words, FreeBSD and other BSD projects could offer > > NATIVE and modern CI/CD and IaaS pipelines on bare metal. > > > > Just food for thought. > > > > 1. Presently, the dominant philosophy in FreeBDS is to remove things from > core > into ports; and not the other way around. > > 2. Having used both ezjail and iocage extensively my choice would be iocage > over ezjail. > > I am happy to have learned about iocage in this thread. Thank you!! Seems I am not the only one thinking along these lines... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 14:22:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21AD23CBA8 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:22:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KXWl6qH3z4Jh8 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:22:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581776548; x=1584368548; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=zBttiiGixj3mNys0rONK0evSIqajeBiIB+HqTpbCcV0=; b=e0rh1p9zA6B6aKG3bd6o8oLFXRQFy+nPbLMvo5ap7cZDN02NaGCX52UErANk9Mtznogl0cJXapTVLFthckLkAhyL2p4hx2qMPmZWYo35xBM+zG4cTDwwHysdLtK1ClcBbmSCS9TtRbyLpNPns/JkUeScNRzTzK4NKl+ps7AnY8M= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDRhNWFkMC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:22:27 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:22:26 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j2yKv-000Frm-FF for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:22:25 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:22:25 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215142225.ec4e1c9e53f2d72448234cc9@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215052620.GA1482@admin.sibptus.ru> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215052620.GA1482@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KXWl6qH3z4Jh8 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=e0rh1p9z; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.27), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.55), asn: 7381(0.27), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:22:28 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:26:20 +0700 Victor Sudakov wrote: > Fine, let's apply your approach, it could yield interesting results. Can > we find 3-4 real world scenarios where FreeBSD cannot be replaced by > Linux without important negative technical and business consequences of > said replacement? I'll add Isilon OneFS to the pile. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 14:31:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBF323CEC8 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:31:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KXjf29f9z4K08 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:31:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id a5so12926128wmb.0 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:31:02 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QNynAxPC2IDT1CO+E28DEH6GIYFzZ+stJxKbH+DGhog=; b=GOjYijU6nhuUrtFKWiQc5iXq2e5EsacyZJ3KvfqlIlMhtKuLtZsvvwPloxM/gE+ypy 14cs9WXoyEMShkC83SK9FFVdg2YL6+OL6Y/mhGnzpOd3v3jrxA/y2olNe1f+eGdblMRL CgGbzUKNBpCxSjhdCHm1z1Bxi5lLRwrCOtsXu1uecRCs+7Fl5y+bt1ox0PqWMN/BWj05 X7R1d5yvOuqCgY6/CUnouC31YiIy5A36nzZAokidjb9zAJfv57AX4O+fFyGtW2NQOSwb kxFOZ6bQazMZ6GZOJJqiQxOHz9s3CeDzcqjIvqqfAulH8604KE7ad7ghGlGh4TC7B9t1 IbrA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX46LqOIf86P3gTZ4B2V0FlbS66TCTZjA45Q++PC3i1FZEJiXbE whURN0cL1T4FKX+KU76Ew2uBDPQd X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzgq2VODrLNi1URGOdZfsVNHAH/eadd24Rfxs8xF8C1nZs8yqExM7i83ybIEGV6tGb5WwicoQ== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c190:: with SMTP id y16mr11331777wmi.107.1581777060211; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([2.221.19.106]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r5sm11492694wrt.43.2020.02.15.06.30.59 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:30:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:30:57 +0000 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting Message-ID: <20200215143057.15c1198a@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <091dd3af-7b99-267f-7d04-541b6d651926@holgerdanske.com> References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <091dd3af-7b99-267f-7d04-541b6d651926@holgerdanske.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KXjf29f9z4K08 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[googlemail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[googlemail.com,quarantine]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[106.19.221.2.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[googlemail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[googlemail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.12), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.42), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:31:03 -0000 On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:08:27 -0800 David Christensen wrote: > The most obvious downside is that MBR does not support labels. So, > the FreeBSD boot system uses device node names. This means I have to > ensure that the system drive is always ada0 You can use glabel to label the drive, or label the individual partitions. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 15:06:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539C623E276 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:06:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48KYVx3533z4M5S for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:06:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.139.114]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D2044E65B; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:06:48 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <20200215121902.55ef128b@moonstudio> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:06:46 -0600 Cc: freebsd-questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <433AAF72-3A23-4A8D-9ED6-124FB39A9DE5@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215114834.1d75a163@moonstudio> <202002151158.40315.dr.klepp@gmx.at> <20200215121902.55ef128b@moonstudio> To: Ralf Mardorf X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KYVx3533z4M5S X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[114.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.989,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.14)[ip: (0.39), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.19), asn: 160(0.15), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.850,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:06:50 -0000 > On Feb 15, 2020, at 5:19 AM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions = wrote: >=20 > On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:58:40 +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >> Anno domini 2020 Sat, 15 Feb 11:48:34 +0100 >> Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions scripsit: >>> A social dispute that might has got no impact regarding technology, >>> but could be very important depending on the employer and/or >>> customer. >>>=20 >>> The Linux mascot is a political correct penguin, while the FreeBSD >>> mascot offends several religious humans. >>>=20 >>> Sorry, but I couldn't resist. =20 >>=20 >> OT, but anyway: >> = https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people >> = https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_Satan_personally_killing_people >=20 > I'm missing legal and rational evidence for the existence of {a,} God > as well as the existence of Satan. >=20 > Just assuming one or the other should exist, I'm also missing = evidences > for killing humans, that really existed, let alone that just way too > many ring-the-bell-and-run-away tricks are already a no-go. OT, but anyway: One of well known science popularizers said once: =E2=80=9CI agree with everything that [Christian] religion says except = for one thing. I agree that you shouldn't=E2=80=99 kill, shouldn=E2=80=99t= steal, should be kind to others, etc. I disagree on this: [Christian] = religion says that God created people, but I think it is other way = around=E2=80=9D. I guess, we all got carried away from what started the thread; my = apologies for adding to that deflection. Valeri > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 16:19:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6527623FCDC for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:19:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.xs4all.nl [83.161.133.58]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "cloudzeeland.nl", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Kb6c49Zwz4Qhn for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:19:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.nl [10.10.10.36]) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0B510BC95C for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:19:18 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1581783558; bh=Tws0ct+4ZgNkp+a5hrIboQs3EpXu86Ue7My0jhVBIj0=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=UAaFeyxgIi7oLJSkIBUZqkW2H0IR9dnYY+s3Fixh3aDcovDq3+gDfFeu0WYlIx6f+ rKo7LH1/txyzpPJnH6eB0SqzSCqIDiI55XWoIa9b9QABbMnK/OUXEygREm7pIiP56q L/bboiCrxJAaPdix3ZbwdAUk2TZty3b2QMKgRJEY= Received: from [10.10.10.34] (pion1.rpicloud.nl [82.176.127.71]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB14210BC95B for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:19:17 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1581783557; bh=Tws0ct+4ZgNkp+a5hrIboQs3EpXu86Ue7My0jhVBIj0=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=5MAyOIp/MQDJzyRRdRuxY7bzdGWBevl6Hoe0tBzR2Qi8DptChvjQl1hwUltrZbcOI X9pzREcfnV+mWWE/vcqgr84xnGRsg9AfIFb4GSp+C5InDysEDnGNFGqLIEyDp7QpUT KeAtaJrkRkcTLraSoHQZP0WB1Wn2zbjdZU/pX15k= Subject: Re: Removal script From: Jos Chrispijn To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> Organization: Userland rocks! Message-ID: <22f78801-b114-9d00-f521-00250814ab38@cloudzeeland.nl> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:19:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP on poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Kb6c49Zwz4Qhn X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=UAaFeyxg; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=5MAyOIp/; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl designates 83.161.133.58 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cloudzeeland.nl:s=cloud]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl:+]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.29)[ipnet: 83.160.0.0/14(-1.47), asn: 3265(-0.03), country: NL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3265, ipnet:83.160.0.0/14, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:19:21 -0000 On 15-2-20 14:31, Jos Chrispijn wrote: > Can you pls tell me how I can do that savest? Thanks! Thanks y'all - will dive in your suggestions! Best, Joz From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 16:33:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511A22403F1 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:33:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KbR53Wj3z4RTv for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:33:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581784418; x=1584376418; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=NRiH03svf6xZKwU7JKGlJo3htTuynpV3piXRjx/8HAM=; b=TCohhhM54QyVUSx1f8SKSLQCkJeJNjSTHGqhWsLyKhGyjlrYy/Tl8TIpM7YgcCMG73lrrxOSFPfmGdSVFsvDs4nDPcpeJyTCQnAKNfiQi0rkwTPngemwhI69Z40IGfTfPK5vyFr9chs3Ot7Se/gB1WcTSvtEPstA+dvlotMMFuA= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDRjZTQ0Ni5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:33:25 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:33:25 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j30Nf-000GFF-UY for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:33:24 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:33:23 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removal script Message-Id: <20200215163323.9f2e7eef57d32f42f11833d1@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <22f78801-b114-9d00-f521-00250814ab38@cloudzeeland.nl> References: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> <22f78801-b114-9d00-f521-00250814ab38@cloudzeeland.nl> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KbR53Wj3z4RTv X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=TCohhhM5; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.27), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.55), asn: 7381(0.27), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:33:38 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:19:17 +0100 Jos Chrispijn wrote: > On 15-2-20 14:31, Jos Chrispijn wrote: > > > Can you pls tell me how I can do that savest? Thanks! > > Thanks y'all - will dive in your suggestions! Give man find a good read while you're at it, it's an astonishingly powerful tool. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 17:50:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1AA4241AEF for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:50:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48Kd8C05bzz4VK5 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:50:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 52ABA4E691; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:50:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: Victor Sudakov , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <89a55b95-f8cb-caef-44ef-7c8f6a4f36b2@malikania.fr> <20200215050607.GC82559@admin.sibptus.ru> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:50:50 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200215050607.GC82559@admin.sibptus.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Kd8C05bzz4VK5 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.912,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.14)[ip: (0.39), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.19), asn: 160(0.15), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:50:52 -0000 On 2020-02-14 23:06, Victor Sudakov wrote: > David Demelier wrote: >>> Not to start a flame war. A purely technical question: what >>> technological advantages does the modern FreeBSD have over modern Linux? >> >> In short: >> >> - Jails ; > > Linux has several implementations of what we call Jails (OpenVZ, Linux > Containers, whatever). It also has Docker which beats jails. -1 In my book FreeBSD jail beats Docker. Just for statistics of humble opinions. Valeri > >> - ZFS ; > > Linux has too (but see later). > >> - Simplicity (not always the case though). Type mount on a fresh FreeBSD and >> a fresh Linux and admire that. Also applies to initial processes ; > > That's true (aesthetically too) but these are the admin's personal > problems. The admin is a subordinate person and must support whatever > system is deemed better for production, performance, features etc. > > >> - Documentation (not the best though, OpenBSD has the best doc out there) >> but all BSD have the most well documented stuff ; > > RedHat's documentation was pretty good AFAIR (when I worked with RedHat > 6). But this is a valid point, thank you. FreeBSD's handbook and other > docs are very good (if dated in some places). > >> - pf ; > > I cannot compare pf with iptables for the lack of experience in the > latter, but as a stateful firewall, pf kind of sucks because it a) > cannot keep state above the transport layer and b) its very notion of > state is kind of perverse. > >> - poudriere ; > > poudriere is part of the binary software packaging system. For the > present I think Linux's binary packaging system (apt or yum) is still > more advanced than ours. > > However, the separation of the "base system" and "packages" as seen in > FreeBSD seems to me a great, unique advantage. Another point in > FreeBSD's favour. > >> - src.conf, make.conf and easy world rebuild ; > > Very few need this nowadays at the time of cattle servers (as opposed to > pet servers). > >> - LLVM instead of GCC. > > If it gives measurable advantages in productivity, performance or > security, I'd be happy to learn more about that. > > [dd] >> >>> Several yeas ago I would say ZFS was a killer feature, but now Linux has >>> ZFS too, and AFAIK FreeBSD is going to migrate to Linux's ZFS >>> implementation. >> >> Linux has unofficial ZFS support, it's not in the kernel and it's a real >> mess. > > If this is really so, why is FreeBSD planning to migrate to Linux's ZFS > implementation? > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 18:26:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A9E24326A for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:26:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48KdxQ27Shz4YBR for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:26:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [128.135.4.181] (unknown [128.135.4.181]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A6674E6B9; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:26:33 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:26:33 -0600 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> To: Victor Sudakov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KdxQ27Shz4YBR X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.14 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.889,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.13)[ip: (0.38), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.19), asn: 160(0.15), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:26:35 -0000 > On Feb 15, 2020, at 12:56 AM, Victor Sudakov wrote: >=20 > Polytropon wrote: >>=20 >> Additionally, there's systemd-homed to re-invent home directories. >> I'm not sure if there will be systemd-linuxd and systemd-kerneld >> to re-invent everything else. ;-) >=20 > "Among the items being explored by systemd-homed are JSON-based user > records," >=20 > What's next, systemd-registryd? >=20 When they [RedHat] started making system administration really = =E2=80=9Cnice=E2=80=9D: GUI based, for the sake of which [GUI] in my = opinion, config files settings became wrapped into XML garbage, I = speculated about the reason. All in all it was becoming MS style GUI = administration. And it is well known truth that when you can not defeat = your enemy (think Linux stealing part of user base from MS), one just = joins the enemy, becomes one of their important leaders, and leads them = into swamp or any other place for oblivion. You can call the above =E2=80=9Cconspiracy theory=E2=80=9D (often used = to label something that is difficult to find rational argument against), = which it may be, and in fact what we see may be just new ways the World = decided to accept. Valeri > This is some madman run amok and nobody to stop him. >=20 > We've known such revolutionaries in the history of Russia, like Czar > Peter I "let's change everything for the sake of change". >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN > 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 18:34:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968962435BC for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:34:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Kf6g2KDHz4YbS for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:34:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1581791673; bh=y4v70cHThk0U2LWgGf1h+E2FtqFtE2+A4Y3v0/lOQ2I=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=A6YsxVZa0ofS25qneVuKnDvdLrzryJWMO2JFujhMzkq1zgaOeSAqlkU0tqzczJ9kY J0gT+uH6gkYnEz1mEuTeqcMn1vxXnQByxmVQlXNgJN8gDno4BTghzFNCjlEaP9M3a4 zIqJOIuaMFgwTnAF/64qI/WWpK47AwO1vP16gCRM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from Pritelrohm ([82.243.97.146]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.174]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mf0BG-1jf62c3EUs-00gW9h for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:34:32 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:34:30 +0100 From: Rand Pritelrohm To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215193430.05a2edd1@Pritelrohm> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; 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dkim=pass header.d=gmx.net header.s=badeba3b8450 header.b=A6YsxVZa; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com designates 212.227.17.22 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmx.net:s=badeba3b8450]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.227.17.0/27]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmx.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-5.68), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.12), asn: 8560(2.21), country: DE(-0.02)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[22.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:34:36 -0000 Valeri Galtsev wrote : [...] >=20 > You can call the above =E2=80=9Cconspiracy theory=E2=80=9D (often used to= label something > that is difficult to find rational argument against), which it may be, an= d in > fact what we see may be just new ways the World decided to accept. >=20 [...] True, this point is not related to the "conspiracy theory=E2=80=9D but to t= he baffling "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" mechanism [1]. Rand. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 18:39:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8AE2438B3 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:39:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hartzell@alerce.com) Received: from corvid.alerce.com (corvid.alerce.com [206.125.171.163]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KfDX58Ccz4Z4t for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:39:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hartzell@alerce.com) Received: from postfix.alerce.com (76-226-160-236.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.226.160.236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by corvid.alerce.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 042F044CD1 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alerce.com; s=dkim; t=1581791969; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=mbM3nD34hg4s89AewLxHhDZlLzsujI0L699kuSMibRE=; b=iwKyxZNYd4o5bFok6CKm48nQPGfElIM4E4HtfhG7IQoEzS1CvT8DH/PyjiATef5G19Ya1t q/8Mhh+FR/qjqTHQGmL4n0T2237WYJGrhTOf5xD+JkxLvurvHQYQFMpGusrdFDy2nsjqGy VT7+IttlI1w8b3RNqw8nQgSO65GxziimVQQx2FKBZ57G6vPiC6Rgjj81eNON8ghl+QV6Kp pjZCdouBDn9y07XhrpPGN6j8bCJBs59CNK2vJaHZeodszYVfFR4M6IfEfm26US8LzqIREr g46Ey85g0RT52euu3boaVBH9lrFpLgVzaLzDNIsI69g7Ac0dWS0Z6RFdG7qrfg== Received: by postfix.alerce.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1D3D9201AB3596; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:29 -0800 (PST) From: George Hartzell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24136.15073.25870.92500@alice.local> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:29 -0800 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux In-Reply-To: <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 26.3 (x86_64-apple-darwin14.5.0) Reply-To: hartzell@alerce.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KfDX58Ccz4Z4t X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=alerce.com header.s=dkim header.b=iwKyxZNY; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=alerce.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hartzell@alerce.com designates 206.125.171.163 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hartzell@alerce.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.75 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[alerce.com:s=dkim]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[hartzell@alerce.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[alerce.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[alerce.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-2.75)[ip: (-8.88), ipnet: 206.125.168.0/21(-4.49), asn: 25795(-0.34), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:25795, ipnet:206.125.168.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:39:41 -0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:38:18 +0700 > Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > But jails lack a repository of ready-made containers with applications. > > True - but there's never been anything to prevent setting one up, > iocage has export, import, rename and snapshot which should provide the > necessary core. > They're not quite the same as Docker images, but the iocage jail manager supports "plugins", https://iocage.readthedocs.io/en/latest/plugins.html. They're canned instructions for building an image for a particular application, not ready-made images, but they work similarly. FreeNAS/ixSystem supports a set of about 30 and there's a repository for community plugins: https://github.com/ix-plugin-hub/iocage-plugin-index There's a nice, recent tutorial that covers creating plugins over on the FreeNAS blog site: https://www.ixsystems.com/blog/plugins-development/ g. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 18:40:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59C5243B30 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:40:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48KfFk6zN2z4ZJ7 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:40:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [128.135.4.181] (unknown [128.135.4.181]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6CCCF4E6B9; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:40:42 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: <20200215193430.05a2edd1@Pritelrohm> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:40:42 -0600 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215193430.05a2edd1@Pritelrohm> To: Rand Pritelrohm X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KfFk6zN2z4ZJ7 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.12 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.86)[-0.862,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.13)[ip: (0.38), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.19), asn: 160(0.15), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmx.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:40:43 -0000 > On Feb 15, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Rand Pritelrohm = wrote: >=20 > Valeri Galtsev wrote : >=20 > [...] >>=20 >> You can call the above =E2=80=9Cconspiracy theory=E2=80=9D (often = used to label something >> that is difficult to find rational argument against), which it may = be, and in >> fact what we see may be just new ways the World decided to accept. >>=20 >=20 > [...] >=20 > True, this point is not related to the "conspiracy theory=E2=80=9D but = to the baffling > "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" mechanism [1]. >=20 > Rand. >=20 > [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish >=20 >=20 My trouble with =E2=80=9Ccreative editing=E2=80=9D like yours is, you = kind of talk about my argument, which you fully edited away, leaving = only my comment about that my argument=E2=80=A6 leaving it unclear what = I have said that you are replying to. Was there any purpose of doing that? Never mind, it is just my curiosity = why people do it when the do it ;-) Valeri > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 18:53:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35A02442E1 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:53:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KfXC5k3Wz4bMN for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:53:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.119.79]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M3lgJ-1j3rdp2D7j-000urF; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:53:06 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:53:03 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Paul Pathiakis Cc: Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questions , Victor Sudakov , Alejandro Imass Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:PtA70hM90Hg8qGvhv6uVUkReotXdipeQQEMI+FUwAtFudOnHABE chT9VTWH1y3VtUjFyqeUtsJyInq6lvbZzxpy26ow3naNXCv9G0NkvqKusoaZRoNoPtEkQn2 LPjbwailvStYH3GPyK/fnyksuTRc/1X9YgsWX5u63td/k3y2tcKea/m1DEMJVbNU80rpBPU 0tCuu8+3choUwxBnBt9/Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Vg9WnpXuZIE=:qYIootuzF1r1BNFv/5RPcP k0ilkQj9SNn5L+aIZT60V0fsUbEMFeZy5Sy5317AmZk5jYD6wTD1MqVYZBGqBn+LZB3nNcCqk 1uAUfyEG2eAJ5uGtaISsu5MJnvZDt3lqciQAs3DrsCqf06v0epr0JCOezGXaQqmfJkoaW0qxl SH3wztvD/TnUfiaUiogAWBBimPLBoGEwjbeCy1CF3wRj5LFGGSXiUUtalrZZDY7o7K5vgwhIG 7Jrl8p6O474lkoo0MpFN3GkWM/ZGRBBFDe9t3983OIk0gBpHSp6AOrwiQ4glKLZxlPKsTlVy2 X4E1sHVhvOHjPl5VwTEAGAV4xDlz2FmVjjS9nS90iJAxOsZtsd/HYia+F/G3E/eUmqBTPahua JIqqDPZZmbcNjkliZWf8q/UZtH+C2LAqwPH6KmqyZ0rV79xxRjNKuW5VIhYyLFMRfDUXvrEi/ lJ8xHbDfMMuM9t5Yp7fLrnzbymLrzzPTdjLC/Mjrcd0zkHS2wqU/BNc8YhRGSHeA5YYyGtIlj OPYGC62MEJK3ABmEkkAya7p8G+C5L1COM1sVbJPHCWawZpyec810bBSFGbiiL9nQ5buIPkSHr q830sJUaW2/q6ZUdKjCmUCa+gtb9IdHg1yaRvc4XP86UgfSrOHXgfTMLwDNR097RsKlG0ttGU xq7q6PPgjHF54veYgHrAQHDA1QrDWCZm6m658/5PRmRzGVuv9iaPtE0TeaNbb/rCAyjQ7mGXh nmNeuAInMUiqIXRAfUm1dtov6/tcSMwG6n7B7glD+fb+M9QtKZadhOgTSXbCPZOX8guy4FCRt UWaF4G/1dGF0YA5e3e37MvNFtRS+u/8OvLkhjojNx3qZhmPm0Ue2qgtelhTQMN2J7lPkbfG X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KfXC5k3Wz4bMN X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.02 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[79.119.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.994,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[130.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.62)[ip: (2.04), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.12), asn: 8560(2.21), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:53:16 -0000 On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:30:23 +0000 (UTC), Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questions wrote: > If you're trying to convince management, I'd suggest researching > who has based their products on FreeBSD....List of products based > on FreeBSD That is a problem. Reason: FreeBSD's license, often criticized as a "rape me license", allows using, modifying and redistribution software based on FreeBSD without contributing back, or acknowledging that FreeBSD played a significant role. So maybe FreeBSD is the top of usage share (don't confuse with "market share", as this is a little bit different). It might run in millions, billions of devices, and nobody knows about it. Of course manufacturers won't admit they used FreeBSD when they can advertise the software or firmware of their products as their very own invention. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 18:59:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C1B2448CA for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:59:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Kfg42qS2z4c6q for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:59:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1581793147; bh=oY1Rnj0kFWJvyGD4bixFusyXj8aagiSG4exsH7PqeSM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=Jj1KU2nIyV71krXACFm0IqE9bhZXdtDLVQQUd7+GfdzfAjTOL/lGFdyAb3gvNh2zn 5YjXcjcVMhVjLduJxZlqv5cQr3ado8Hu3IZFQhLtu2oxA0QBlYLGiTRrOP5VzdcoQ9 kerzXx4v14FvSaU34Hb2irnb1hThW1fFZQmoiAvc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from Pritelrohm ([82.243.97.146]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.174]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N8GMq-1jXzj919v6-014BjU; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:59:07 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:59:05 +0100 From: Rand Pritelrohm To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215195905.643751b1@Pritelrohm> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215193430.05a2edd1@Pritelrohm> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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dkim=pass header.d=gmx.net header.s=badeba3b8450 header.b=Jj1KU2nI; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com designates 212.227.17.20 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmx.net:s=badeba3b8450]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.227.17.0/27]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmx.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.52), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.12), asn: 8560(2.21), country: DE(-0.02)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[20.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:59:13 -0000 Le samedi 15 f=C3=A9vrier 2020 =C3=A0 12:40:42 (-0600), Valeri Galtsev a =C3=A9crit : > > On Feb 15, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Rand Pritelrohm > > wrote: > >=20 > > Valeri Galtsev wrote : > >=20 > > [...] =20 > >>=20 > >> You can call the above =E2=80=9Cconspiracy theory=E2=80=9D (often used= to label something > >> that is difficult to find rational argument against), which it may be,= and > >> in fact what we see may be just new ways the World decided to accept. > >> =20 > >=20 > > [...] > >=20 > > True, this point is not related to the "conspiracy theory=E2=80=9D but = to the > > baffling "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" mechanism [1]. > >=20 > > Rand. > >=20 > > [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish > >=20 > > =20 >=20 > My trouble with =E2=80=9Ccreative editing=E2=80=9D like yours is, you kin= d of talk about my > argument, which you fully edited away, leaving only my comment about that= my > argument=E2=80=A6 leaving it unclear what I have said that you are replyi= ng to. >=20 > Was there any purpose of doing that? Never mind, it is just my curiosity = why > people do it when the do it ;-) >=20 > Valeri >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" =20 >=20 > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Valeri Galtsev > Sr System Administrator > Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics > Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics > University of Chicago > Phone: 773-702-4247 > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >=20 Valeri, My apologies, it's a bad habit from my office "standards". I have to correct that and follow strictly the Netiquette. Thanks for pointing it out to me. Rand. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 19:02:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBBF4244E2A for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:02:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48KflC1jJLz4cht for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:02:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 921664E6BE; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:02:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux To: Rand Pritelrohm Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215193430.05a2edd1@Pritelrohm> <20200215195905.643751b1@Pritelrohm> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:02:46 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200215195905.643751b1@Pritelrohm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KflC1jJLz4cht X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.936,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.13)[ip: (0.37), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.18), asn: 160(0.15), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmx.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:02:47 -0000 On 2020-02-15 12:59, Rand Pritelrohm wrote: > Le samedi 15 février 2020 à 12:40:42 (-0600), > Valeri Galtsev a écrit : > >>> On Feb 15, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Rand Pritelrohm >>> wrote: >>> >>> Valeri Galtsev wrote : >>> >>> [...] >>>> >>>> You can call the above “conspiracy theory†(often used to label something >>>> that is difficult to find rational argument against), which it may be, and >>>> in fact what we see may be just new ways the World decided to accept. >>>> >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> True, this point is not related to the "conspiracy theory†but to the >>> baffling "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" mechanism [1]. >>> >>> Rand. >>> >>> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish >>> >>> >> >> My trouble with “creative editing†like yours is, you kind of talk about my >> argument, which you fully edited away, leaving only my comment about that my >> argument… leaving it unclear what I have said that you are replying to. >> >> Was there any purpose of doing that? Never mind, it is just my curiosity why >> people do it when the do it ;-) >> >> Valeri >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >>> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> Valeri Galtsev >> Sr System Administrator >> Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics >> Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics >> University of Chicago >> Phone: 773-702-4247 >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> > > > Valeri, > > My apologies, it's a bad habit from my office "standards". I have to correct > that and follow strictly the Netiquette. > > Thanks for pointing it out to me. > > Rand. > No need to apologize,Rand. I was just curious. And my guess was you were going to remove unnecessary sentiment whether that is "conspiracy theory" or not and leave previous paragraph... I guess, I am a bit of thin skinned, I had my point reversed totally in the past by "creative editing", that probably what made me peaky about this ;-( Thanks. Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 19:03:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026EC244F5E for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:03:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KfmR4gLzz4ct0 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:03:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.119.79]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MVNF1-1iw8ri2bep-00SNK4; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:03:49 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:03:49 +0100 From: Polytropon To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215200349.89881363.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200215083848.ca1d5b3d463e50da5947a381@sohara.org> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200215064911.GF1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083848.ca1d5b3d463e50da5947a381@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:n+Wynx1JQvTp66CsBf/z4fb/DvXZztwafqQAubEsFJ3qfYbQJ0/ pKfHRxnugLUcoa4MyAI1h4/EyJWOSVjpSXfmUuYex2HZbhpBwbcqGM5+1Hj6VubhzNI+RI4 IoYsF3kPXkWfgzul8kEbTiZflbmVHYBex5xp6BjWLZtUP+PDBPMWEjjk3+szQOOO6FaiMOY wfNYNfFvd9WqzIjPdRP3A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:fgZoO3Rc/mM=:BOv9s0yXXJ7CjD9V42+C+1 H3fUPCErBiczmJipluEVzmyssMD+fnI3oRDS3zRkstlUkpFfk1UF4yg++CKLV0ZiiELDoDErE QJI0pqsOEgFbp3tuPISJh4YkL/fwj/HJxJGiH5/1k8+jMLV900rklTXH0bO6hWf0bXsfxYNfP q/Spt6QlyKZ4YPRZHHameI+LluKm+wlSQe0ubJG0UX/3UB6YZLoIGu0Wez9pSwYwN/vcVwKJQ QPzvcMazi7dVkmSfyAngpbPPnIbHiLhBopv5dFgWPxbq8Q6LXYIqXusTA0KaO/nGa1fOuu/jX T+pCSCvl9rY5bPb13uIJm9LRiH74SMrQrOg+bm/tO9vTMWC/AIhRjFrLBtRGXhrFYtIR2d/iP 9ucoAEIvm2E5/wVfMcdJNph569d4ZIovhIkau3/JaVUEU4t3eQN3vtEW9wMvX1lmWpbMdDSrC VKplrKQblPnU3SvHW9XtrFsufTWkZCQgVGyFr8w/H6bYt0gYTDPYrNnBFzBpQPrJccKKxzVu7 6A/jFjTpLZvX7QOHAhkyNzwJ/1xNEv0kNiRGH4/gIHFlX3EQVDFWsaiUCo7hqOLXZ77cGtGdP 5OlkYGEc8NQbtioj8jZkzxcnhbAZ8cJk0wJYwP9ELo7HoaiJBxevwDxyOikaCDuSLknPhA/9d JUhjdObcW+nSrBJITMsmjuPtrfTCkfy42SW9WdWzC0FnJzKWFGZ3IbPti7Y/IGCpfX4EIyvTQ pE+z+jEERi3eqU1pSUWwSfgRxIajnQKe7YQwcxwRw8lzQZTUwpslVVDEYb/5Tg97X/XnhQEGM RjQljSaBxMjLjvIeoPaFbO/w9haysazaB2Or/xkN30pi2e0SW1SjwnGLi2r37xB4iTAHL+9 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KfmR4gLzz4ct0 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.134) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.91 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[79.119.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.992,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.998,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[134.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.52)[ip: (1.56), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.12), asn: 8560(2.21), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:03:53 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:38:48 +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:49:11 +0700 > Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > > > > An update never ever would replace /etc/foo.conf . On Arch Linux it > > > would be stored as /etc/foo.conf.pacnew , almost all Linux distros > > > provide such a solution, but the admin is screwed, if an update does > > > add a file to /etc/foo.d/ . > > > > FreeBSD has taken this path too (looking at /etc/rc.conf.d/, /etc/cron.d > > and numerous others). > > FreeBSD has used this approach to carefully separate default > configuration from user provided configuration - the directories are > generally for sysadmins the files for the distribution. Interesting way to look at it. Maybe it's worth mentioning that OpenBSD emphasizes a similar approach: *.conf are provided by the OS, and *.conf.local contains alternations and additions by the sysadmin. FreeBSD also offers this mechanism for rc.conf with a "hierarchy": /etc/defaults/rc.conf /etc/rc.conf /etc/rc.conf.local || /etc/rc.conf.d/* Here, "||" means "parallel", quasi-parallel, as "man 5 rc.conf" doesn't indicate a specific precedence... ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 19:14:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229AF2454E8 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:14:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Kg123pNYz4dWS for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:14:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.119.79]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1McIYO-1jbIK720VQ-00chOe; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:14:43 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:14:43 +0100 From: Polytropon To: RW Cc: RW via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting Message-Id: <20200215201443.0339bf06.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200215143057.15c1198a@gumby.homeunix.com> References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <091dd3af-7b99-267f-7d04-541b6d651926@holgerdanske.com> <20200215143057.15c1198a@gumby.homeunix.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:zdaL9os95yyfUJH74+YqH28LH4ZB00jiWinHgqrim6nS+DEmFsX A9muxS7VitL5XEcM+8/OENqJlC2V2ePbB1wWtSPpfRO5L55yAOKiZ3wu+4bRJYsqfzdwWXm cRxpAb7sqi6xTtT1Ee/Bq5wafWVNrx1mvKWXZKoi4lYdDJbYYvj3szBStJ9rnplhWuuYO7A SWiUviGLIYIo02/vmPxXA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dsDKNr/Q3ek=:VhmevyqT+6rZHRXMDETtL1 xyf2Cf3nXa+xJYUhvSdxGe2GVZ66Et2epc58gsqM0rcX77quBqlrBh1qavbIgvpQc3hVnYrAV 4Qd/ARtXde8MhJMkvMlq++Mh4616gxeULsMqIr2h8B49VptqxJLGCPiUUBMfSK7YpuckpmbAj 1pYEK39SZan6mq+vZ6nmS6bGozBFTOYZobK9/JibidI7KlHkgnIq0CRDJyd8FzBMY2G6FbMgF GmdwXwV1YoHuu/kaYmkbrxb5EJ7vdgL+cMcmpwi+HEwi66h9B36xbGztZLr8+rHs9ZZ5mbSqi ujfTtIPptO9Y2AJqZ4qjYASR3aSqY3fzg9+GWYaNiIOMGWE6Y7dE6TO1LhhFHLM4VN5N7RuYJ 6uTrcc1BhRcdCDYNP/qRjAn5j8ETwSF0Yq1Oo/bonFM0PuwLrqU1vD75Rw5BNd2I6lpEvhtC/ 7e2ANqNkhk0arhoaVMsmRxPOj9LmYa/KXYYjH+0QhyreFgDtpxiCAtNjJJeL8SWBJ7a9j+k2T WlzosrtPW1qRxGyJkvzQtnivqhH1lb6UBgl5dudi540IGGoGm8ozfRnQNfoyL7tG2ECMosuMO 9wfMQDquWLxEeiIkG+okxTqWO9WNeQPkLdzB0wxJUEqeobaS5fHAYVzPKRAQ8+ASVX0jr7+N9 hoCCQEz0HU7tgKzGlwt4DVX8v+XakvBOeZB4bqc3YTuV1rTFNSHJNHHTHeTkhNoFkBxYG/pxS KY5Q/aU1l/DuuauVBL2mpOxyZtonWgUQGlMiRZJaYA03T/K8LHKWE8ERQPvIssQDMIzjlS5c5 KhG1ahi6ycMAJE6sZ1ULJvdpdGbkr7gmp9KpGneIGvMmEUwvUOzzmAWJHwoE90oAOQUf+zM X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Kg123pNYz4dWS X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.83 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[googlemail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[79.119.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.98)[0.983,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.996,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[133.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.45)[ip: (1.19), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.12), asn: 8560(2.21), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:14:48 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:30:57 +0000, RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:08:27 -0800 > David Christensen wrote: > > > > The most obvious downside is that MBR does not support labels. So, > > the FreeBSD boot system uses device node names. This means I have to > > ensure that the system drive is always ada0 > > You can use glabel to label the drive, or label the > individual partitions. Actually, there are several possible methods for labeling: 1. glabel (GEOM label) example: /dev/label/usr 2. tunefs label (UFS permanent label) example: /dev/ufs/usr 3. UFS-ID example: /dev/ufsid/486b6fc16926168e Sources: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/geom-glabel.html http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/labels.html -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:15:23 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:15:21 +0100 From: Rand Pritelrohm To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215201521.0ad109c8@Pritelrohm> In-Reply-To: References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214195430.25365f87@moonstudio> <7371554e-82a3-a7aa-b764-ae2627e241d3@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200214203134.17f6d4bd@moonstudio> <20200214204135.97b7d3b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215065641.GG1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215193430.05a2edd1@Pritelrohm> <20200215195905.643751b1@Pritelrohm> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.4 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:t0do9iMdUAY6B0W1vKGmQmbSujiUUtWgSPWMcZlb3Iw2SsL6z9p 9spxkByh/X5/Xob6fiI6puzpRdD5tXEjtcwN+QMo6SHENGu1y9tIR6tqMHgvACTPJhsGkx6 1zBccm/ntfEkfEZYFBbL38Kmpmrb0Olu6e40y78vjsIlGa2Z8DI2KTuTHeCAuI17L3pP7WW p1QAuHa9eTLuLIqDyIBfw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:MMwRuqVmuWI=:q1kQq2num+ntyrrM6FkA1V v+aUIYnldXqFvv+OIw7ZvdQ1se2fF1I4BP0oZ2EknvXVFhnm8IIyGvPSA/KN/enJilkqBSvpu qf3hb7gpe3pr5gTUjqKXOKydKasDQ4p5y9xM7BdrNKXZNb4yclJiu7UP7DctGJl5KyXFt3Hd8 vjoZ3h3junPuP2/+djehyJ1SsdoB72hMZJ+WvfTuJ4P8Jon1IGdYjzKP5Vvxsw6Zamuou629q 5W3Qi1yInZ/Id2ILS4kmv/nUqraYI8hWP1+XSdesX5Exj5KU1Hrxki5zmdLMab9onFHwIZ2jn IkH9AIcZNNIv8EyB5zLitA2IPJ2xVw/wsd+XI37/FjwjmdYvuoYYEZMLoCRexDTPAf1xWaFKi gInX4xlpOGM42mrSuc7pNME4FM1lnBeEMJn7PWnY6/1KP8DZRctU4j9lIuwSFrW3q+lmKRE9c tUvHgoxLGuYP1AxQiakHZnkpLKaTMJlMedXotEBqJDG73DNpph8QTtJRGIxUL5jYDFffY4lu7 QDdWQtXlSwAxFMuMsA82J4fXxiP4K9M8Ty94Ru6ohb2qDKB3CGdfhDTMfpXLL+sOylmTUtRe5 kJij42OgdKId/Ao04OPI/b33Kiq5AjNsg4WrSccV8ZyZ4mdIRDGHM1FaAotGjtxRLR09bXmrj m5gI/ox6UyMuZspTBEQF9KMb7r77qWH/G2ifU7yNo1mgwZZSQg1jgCIU9Wd8gexGYOMWAdh8Q IPIkTd0RMz4XNuEhJMDguBN9JTtrAAc1DULSnkSdCCSmNx+NfMgLV/VrEZNQEvnMM9cTfU9D/ cY8NqMuIz+xOrHvaXDsEXvxIeSYiz8wTM6xX12Xi5IRCuZTpDrkwv8Qj4cA7k/BLUsE7euui9 yNL5PlPzVv4T43+6r+KxkT9W7zqR9d2C0/k9P5yohTQua04/tJE3r4fHmNXHXNkXrC0dOunhU KBQgF9bOro0TLirSzxvC+TaWHF2MKLrDuoR7kCo4SdAfFd4AXeT6KZIWM9qC1MmBsqwqOs3yv 8/EeSIjOA7EUTKLSWzKzzitLCGlqAo1NOfIZKwtK7ch3kTyv+QB7MVi1bJjoU/HSpKub3hmpt pqiSyGNY02VjPRppa++thg7OK1lS2hYJ0FXO4YlzSwHnOmZoMDhIm7zzFYd2FL/7UdjI77vMa kIVkG9knTcnRSKCjoDGVhpqAm5k3Jk4b9un0s9MJjxZn2RBnLf8l/FFDHe/gQm5S9BtwFDSMg 70qJ83+6QMBKnyvLo X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Kg1q6GX4z4dcv X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.net header.s=badeba3b8450 header.b=beYLVJrO; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com designates 212.227.15.15 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmx.net:s=badeba3b8450]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.227.15.0/24]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmx.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.89), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.12), asn: 8560(2.21), country: DE(-0.02)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[15.15.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:15:29 -0000 Le samedi 15 f=C3=A9vrier 2020 =C3=A0 13:02:46 (-0600), Valeri Galtsev a =C3=A9crit : > On 2020-02-15 12:59, Rand Pritelrohm wrote: > > Le samedi 15 f=C3=A9vrier 2020 =C3=A0 12:40:42 (-0600), > > Valeri Galtsev a =C3=A9crit : > > =20 > >>> On Feb 15, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Rand Pritelrohm > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Valeri Galtsev wrote : > >>> > >>> [...] =20 > >>>> > >>>> You can call the above =E2=80=9Cconspiracy theory=E2=80=9D (often us= ed to label something > >>>> that is difficult to find rational argument against), which it may b= e, > >>>> and in fact what we see may be just new ways the World decided to ac= cept. > >>>> =20 > >>> > >>> [...] > >>> > >>> True, this point is not related to the "conspiracy theory=E2=80=9D bu= t to the > >>> baffling "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" mechanism [1]. > >>> > >>> Rand. > >>> > >>> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish > >>> > >>> =20 > >> > >> My trouble with =E2=80=9Ccreative editing=E2=80=9D like yours is, you = kind of talk about my > >> argument, which you fully edited away, leaving only my comment about t= hat > >> my argument=E2=80=A6 leaving it unclear what I have said that you are = replying to. > >> > >> Was there any purpose of doing that? Never mind, it is just my curiosi= ty > >> why people do it when the do it ;-) > >> > >> Valeri > >> =20 > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > >>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > >>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to > >>> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" =20 > >> > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> Valeri Galtsev > >> Sr System Administrator > >> Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics > >> Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics > >> University of Chicago > >> Phone: 773-702-4247 > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> =20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Valeri, > >=20 > > My apologies, it's a bad habit from my office "standards". I have to co= rrect > > that and follow strictly the Netiquette. > >=20 > > Thanks for pointing it out to me. > >=20 > > Rand. > > =20 >=20 > No need to apologize,Rand. I was just curious. And my guess was you were= =20 > going to remove unnecessary sentiment whether that is "conspiracy=20 > theory" or not and leave previous paragraph... >=20 > I guess, I am a bit of thin skinned, I had my point reversed totally in=20 > the past by "creative editing", that probably what made me peaky about=20 > this ;-( >=20 > Thanks. > Valeri >=20 >=20 Valeri, I see clearly what what you mean. Context and completeness of previous mess= ages are essential in order to avoid ambiguities and misunderstandings. It's true everywhere. Regards, Rand. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 19:54:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B626246D6D for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:54:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KgtS3p5Dz3H9M for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:54:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581796449; x=1584388449; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=OT1bHPnbCT44GshIa/aktG0BNixqqo9ugFb/qKIdyHM=; b=qGvEc+DAiZiRGiI45LjpsfOcOKi81pE2af4VqGyPmOcjbrUyvLcBBM8xFTlJFuLa6W6lSAWtuXpGwvBaXRPWlptqiibjFfuYFEDvacF5GQjkNQqkZZM6pkOV8NqxBP6UrObFDrqdh2JnLVTAenOfgYb6/iyIhSj7rZyU8JjqjxE= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDUxYjRlYi5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:54:03 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 14:54:03 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j33Vp-000GqH-Lo; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:54:01 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:54:01 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: hartzell@alerce.com Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215195401.087e61f980c0ecc3d580336d@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <24136.15073.25870.92500@alice.local> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214141600.GA82559@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200214204838.360c8f624397c659946bd764@sohara.org> <20200215063818.GE1482@admin.sibptus.ru> <20200215083359.367d8a3e9ddb4942df67d5b5@sohara.org> <24136.15073.25870.92500@alice.local> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KgtS3p5Dz3H9M X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=qGvEc+DA; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.90 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.27), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.54), asn: 7381(0.27), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:54:09 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:39:29 -0800 George Hartzell wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > > On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:38:18 +0700 > > Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > > > But jails lack a repository of ready-made containers with > > > applications. > > > > True - but there's never been anything to prevent setting one > > up, iocage has export, import, rename and snapshot which should > > provide the necessary core. > > > > They're not quite the same as Docker images, but the iocage jail > manager supports "plugins", > https://iocage.readthedocs.io/en/latest/plugins.html. They're canned > instructions for building an image for a particular application, not > ready-made images, but they work similarly. Nice I hadn't noticed that feature of iocage, thank you. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 20:01:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E36246F6B for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:01:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic314-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic314-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Kh2d2VKYz3JQG for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:01:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: KpIfza4VM1mxtIoRsS2XY0YWIkD1VWtpfP_zjsp2pON.ajjyEoUhQX7ScOHdZPT Wa_ho8wzZPgblDhP_JoRuCkjJERrkY6Z0aqn_8rD_DKBxM7kewQJFGHcL3Uc6rTyylOt0KpWepsm 0OEuAuHkd5VXcF06WrGmoe_fhYBLNBZkyx7u7UUl1qU4TJqr5_HAnEyDssnPhXTF5Mr6KAOz5Ipg 2Z6eKzq5pR.9TAobjzgX2NSwMCxTsdmRGdvxiXmUQoHf9wJpEH.Y9mK8RGrAXBuSUF7XG3snnq8J z3tvJU.aZgb3ECyp6IMSqBMCzSgYZlwDGGULwchq_EspXTC3oRchCXTWfG1h_pyINqqg3OXU4p7T t8jcmbyy6UIfj6n5mGuY56zRRTCoIs1V15.mBtekejDm7A0ux3L4RQC7uluvK72dAmgSnyPzsI5W Mgbe7NfGT6GwwYTEol.ZKz0ZH_557W7api0Lwb7P.Kqe.4kbkEhWaZg7ToGbH68sJfIn0n1huYbw Q6HI_fVtYKwIqW9sVQqj3A6VOF2ImWId9oGiJO9662HE8aV4jIK9lwryzP5xoDCtiVCrkat8f3gE ta21xoiYmfB39L4HIMQN8pmX5m2GiCoucPKQd_om3nZOwxfMLxyP4lgj8YAOZHYnEIxqEZ9G40.P Sy_7frwiH0gcI6fNpa6KB7Vjd5aTR2he.jN1kQ0qlGBrRva_AGUDug5th9nLwqHgYb6KwwausPOR Qd2Irk2vTNod8P5jH1SjXf5xokUXHmku70gmDW7JtI7JmkvQupGBRVpGWQVrF_e2d8P_w6RgvCCZ yYwegBkBdpScDL5so3nynFL3iwJo5ZjZTKkBzQzlogm0ZgAXp.WcR3L2caZA2_MzzCxSW3V3v8Jq 9YXS8Mgofr0bcHIVwho1KFJuSPynwqXIJKe6PdStqA1NlcYJtslXuFEvKqMpVIubRziRbPW2shJI E1oDn02LE2YNoJZ0aRlSXBK.ZYqNaGKaHzmnnt9JWpqHaXJy1ytrVi5FnFi.tQ38Yqu1BiT2qxBj ykoz8.Xs1yx2P9ISnYUZHX.V9wJOMDLJtrh7Ec2k7VhtUYLFVEMmhs0fy8X3LlWmyFhdmC5mkP9k gKxv0.ocK9h4yIQfbGfYKZ70wvedT0P.FCK1IGNhcAzAHLJKlXY7AxtSo2d2TcHIqzVt314srJVH gUmIurQtoBz.DKmqbKp.J7LrgXTYIBmP93B1Jv7wmAnQLZF5DDQX_.9F4LZyAluVDFxefxcps_sV D6rQrxMnangy5mgVDAdHd7rerVQakcvFSyu0dhYVkHEB7da4dE9eDG8THw4RuC3uSGmqpLyNUAVt rflNrBTu6iVodvi8FOnwU3vgCe1B3YPXOhx4taSOoFk5gEYxvSq8rSb.S4O8ULO_CLHNVeTPq_c6 Z1nlIf0qOzTZhXsFh Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:01:10 +0000 Received: by smtp403.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4a8730afb602e1a5d19c7cfa6fa0f052; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:01:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:01:06 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215210106.5a593e0a@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Kh2d2VKYz3JQG X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.17)[-0.167,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.78)[-0.782,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[146.177.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.17), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[146.177.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:01:14 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:23:37 +0100, Vincent DEFERT wrote: >Simply stated, the behavior of a machine under the control of systemd >is no longer predictable, you have to forget standards and RFCs and >learn the systemd way. That's wrong, you need to learn either to use workarounds to outmanoeuvre unwanted systemd behaviour and/or to learn how to set up systemd correctly the way you want it to behave. Systemd doesn't declare RFCs null and void. The most used Linux init system nowadays indeed makes a technological difference between FreeBSD and Linux. It could be a valid reason to prefer FreeBSD over Linux or vice versa. Because it does make an important difference, it's very important to mention real, important differences between the init processes that are related to the original poster's use case. It's a pity that the original poser didn't mention a use case. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 20:20:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0333A247802 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:20:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KhT92W6Fz3PLg for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:20:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581798045; x=1584390045; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=jhWiM2HsHO8vo7Ma8GAP2oX/BiNWCyUnwn65D1WbwkE=; b=fbCYACrF94EslUH0ESrz7p801S06e5E2zxINmvsj3Kh2PUzXhlXUufvofIlAvzTKRAQlop2m4xkwvM9z+o+Hj6yE2AuhqriIBuwwygH5W8A806Pyo74kffUA2cWMbLzo4JCm4IaW4rW0scf9M4d7MepTit5I9JIoiSU1fFwlIXU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDUyMDA1YS5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:20:35 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:20:34 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j33vV-000GxG-Bu; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:20:33 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:20:33 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KhT92W6Fz3PLg X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=fbCYACrF; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.27), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.54), asn: 7381(0.27), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:20:46 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:53:03 +0100 Polytropon wrote: > On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:30:23 +0000 (UTC), Paul Pathiakis via > freebsd-questions wrote: > > If you're trying to convince management, I'd suggest researching > > who has based their products on FreeBSD....List of products based > > on FreeBSD > > That is a problem. Reason: > > FreeBSD's license, often criticized as a "rape me license", > allows using, modifying and redistribution software based > on FreeBSD without contributing back, or acknowledging that > FreeBSD played a significant role. The copyright notice has to be included so you can find out, for example it is no secret that Isilon OneFS is based on FreeBSD but there's a lot of proprietary code and commercial secrets in it which would be impossible under the GPL. > Of course > manufacturers won't admit they used FreeBSD when they can > advertise the software or firmware of their products as > their very own invention. :-) They do have to own up to it being there (by publishing the copyright message), they just don't have to share what they've added to it. Most do contribute back fixes and improvements that don't reveal their trade secrets partly because it's the right thing to do (the developer's reason) but perhaps mostly because maintaining patches against a moving target is a lot of work (the bean counter's reason). Enlightened self-interest is enough for most without something like the GPL to force things. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 20:58:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63422488C6 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:58:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic306-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KjJk55Yhz45VD for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:58:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: hwlCJVUVM1n0o9IQq0Mcf3HbTq09kKosKzY8MrChBs_DmooNrDhrQJYtqUccp74 us7v7ljV7c7NYkXDYep2ARJ8GmE2yU1YwKgAkmVHe0Fr6abzCiYFxkRmqZkxmbkbBrjxRX9RV8bj I.1LH0FmHGHGsihN7ajVNbZ2r_m6VJYZIhSmOlYRjhQulDoV5wCLuSw2M2j_VHdENxC64Ce_3P2z Qqm2QwQdpJkN7He3.cqyA.nWh6UKzDGx55RLyKLWCfZwQwcz9beERVSepZXqA12upMY_oG5hQAiz sujDuDXOfKptkWa5gXxS2k4GIF0jnFvlr6s4Gj8XC4EiuJFByED5xdpkeV55TS8AaM5KDepSkxKq RAnO.UYre2betuYitzPTqXORzRR5WetOXdcrAHBiOhPpZgoTDlCvTwVGqLR3K0gveUHXwj061gHs wpwTrZXrzV7psRb2nK2U0g7luTWskbm4aMDnNjGMrRoQqy9B.V5OjZ5zy4lcsAlF4YX__eJpe7Nv R.CF3TDGjO3.UDqp0uC0wo9rB42A3dzDXZTj6bfPUg_4.TBIc2BZP5lhTQ7tb5Hmikp2QhkN9kI0 VagxR9Lj2prJT7XsmjXzON_KeCSBfiY_rlxwlZGNu_hXaO71i9sKLqMx9RHmn6ybW.p2rbVO0kAL bSNWBJmodsL6QHt1ltCjplz1pGiamzojIrWiEd1yXuW5D0pBbYHE2JcmUVmvV5gBQq5Dxat04Kpb yIMUtdPaAZfXcTbs_.Ixq1XRukHejjVzEoqk5JzvrCNqKJKo77Z0145Nj3KPUy8LMI3fCteHqDUY _KP1B.NIDXhDzD2_7XEPqrHZXF2nHKyl9KNMH25ZK0JVnPDflnX6dBhj4ECINXDqjbej9UPSVlf2 aFd.DxL5AVNIw_y489jhQ5PPHlgP8ZcvOt6G6xCMtpDPPfN3nRC8qTp9GpTPO9TcfhygUsuf10Ak qRSFNzHBvDmGtuLfb7CLGja6Fn728jhMga3JjoMo3SyGE3e3MKF1WtHHnXMF7lm75Qjy5HJ3LC1u H9_yuHm3ffEPycoQR9_CjaqmR2aVzRBhDDCY66eB_XV0EZeqOzLwMJsqctRFTVsuUD2OR_3f._EQ .NzcK928WiBJKnyNjwnJZXogqNkCz9pIJmrU0FM9M_C28pgEr2q2jyXLKCtjSSkpn.ckzpOzGM6s KUyYQteyIdHd8sJZYEHVSzhX9QkDP15EpppW5XJFwp3g2.G.cU4Zqo1K4hE21ElOyZKjSzaqib1Y vnPsRM22pcsJ16EAPdVPAricxZvB4RmxIY.oFuJZmnRXVBcqLFiKUkZnHE2cMiYk5bloyZPMiY8g m3WvihN0YMTiwbroH6mxku48_s_QeEcpzWolqI9bvekhSo86J8k7m6QBm7wBO7GxNLikmDRMZRPQ mhu_ZaQ3UCMJMucJa Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:58:28 +0000 Received: by smtp428.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 35c2084feea1e251fdab2c19dc9d3d1d; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:58:25 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:58:25 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215215825.5d3c9a1a@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KjJk55Yhz45VD X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.32 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.09)[-0.091,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.74)[-0.738,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[206.176.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.89), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[206.176.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:58:32 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:20:33 +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >The copyright notice has to be included so you can find out Where has it to be included for an embedded system? As a big sticker on the case "This sandwich toaster does use FreeBSD"? Or just by a small note in the appendix of the complete sandwich toaster manual, that is mentioned by a link in the printed quick guide? Or just as a text file on a memory chip inside of the sandwich toaster? --=20 =E2=80=9CAwards are merely the badges of mediocrity.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=95 Charles Ives=20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 21:15:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E6F3248E3B for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:15:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Kjhm4wmQz4CBZ for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:15:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581801353; x=1584393353; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=Qr1vTo6U22WgjFOWXodL9JgAdLx8hk7juEeEcnjhfcg=; b=dhMKpNHt/p8U/dwilUb7KH5BkTfR1gW2CVQsEN6Flui2ViUapdFXXw6lqCXNMvSJJoFk7WTWeOVKSUi3PFxRz2q98ioTh+DZFxGpRE4AaFwFpo/lXaX4kLaDuooo6l836skKtgl4kS4mNcGjWvIl9LRgEPPP4u6bmfc050TSJh0= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDUyYTNjZi5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:15:44 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:15:43 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j34ms-000H7Q-EU; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:15:42 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:15:42 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Ralf Mardorf Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215211542.e8cc2827fc4664ea4bcad918@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215215825.5d3c9a1a@archlinux> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> <20200215215825.5d3c9a1a@archlinux> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Kjhm4wmQz4CBZ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=dhMKpNHt; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.27), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.54), asn: 7381(0.27), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:15:53 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:58:25 +0100 Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:20:33 +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >The copyright notice has to be included so you can find out > > Where has it to be included for an embedded system? As a big sticker on > the case "This sandwich toaster does use FreeBSD"? Or just by a small > note in the appendix of the complete sandwich toaster manual, that is > mentioned by a link in the printed quick guide? Or just as a text file > on a memory chip inside of the sandwich toaster? Read /COPYRIGHT on your FreeBSD system and then you will know as much as I do about it. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 21:34:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 994082495E5 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:34:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic311-31.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic311-31.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.176.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Kk6k3nTxz4M87 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:34:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: COhdAGcVM1k2Czkg_Spy3bxVB5aO9w.MUayWMjzdd2_3CmLbu965DXrIA7s7n_W DXaszmZvihow7KUVt4LTTJojF0MFFG5gfFZW5ouX_lHHD.p1Ag6hA9UelRx1rnmNIRW96hEJShvj puLY2P57pc7YjGQpdgEXzpkTUujL2I5Pm.xvgbDR.Y4VfEWv1ePQ0JFe9OhWhKsdAWi2jdSpDlZ6 BdqknJfcFBjTrOYraZyTRJgyp2UegCGUYEJ72ylc8pJbvsCzNbS.0BoOUIqah5ipEC52u5_QbYP1 UujZhZM6ozL3ZYnCaCcOfBX_F5tM5HME9tpqflws0KcO2ec9RXfzV4.ULiZcRJmZVqIusFvvXBkf NaSm4SkusfyN6YZRfOb3diispZDknvF2MzzTAqZkx2mHnPVFXdHeUETUywZezgxsNLUtvAQlRuXs st6_rjlHHzK2o3vLvht9ChE0WnzClZ9uI9_KLPLoXo6P9fQ_SnBAS3IVKujZl3e9qI3KSo.yYui4 EB9VJVXmdGrM1cp3UPHA2bD.kdH1I2LWChzOxzlS2h4TEQj82EiwJWau.jI9ZSsnghC0q27P91q_ lNWQUvJgCYocDFMQQR1oNbF5ypOCKFLqBa92UmSV1NRnXnZ4jQuY1Yvt6E_kfaVJUmXhptumoYqV NLHK3ZEvgMfvUgak0Oo_Yw8YPbrEUqOhO6NK2ROuoASwrIN.M9_DNNXT1YwTT2.HKvEN6uAtIUcd KpPEsHLeuSQS_5qSWPGXDwh.hQy8PGe19mVDMfMz54tnfwzZhkuLkuijLXTZx2.V2q7OGD0Yiioq kS3LvkoUZCu4w8uuYPRfLyItFVKGpzpDZssKUTOQMIOac71W_WSyOl3W.ZB4XpkrnORXZYuBjVXp FCRa2TNJ0ehViqBd7lGdrODBru8DBOd4_t.o35sFRljAWsqFtH6jMjGWOltxAWLJNo46LuLGvMeD vnXSmPIMsWwmIssh.mJMWoieRDKuSlLRPigxWyALN5t9J_No1DeswoLGn84sqBQXJfvUC6lO1_X3 0qhSbHJSMpbRAai6EDAw2R9bCqfYxVj0VmM1VBqAGGfgQ9R2FJ2kVAysWt1I1NrXHT5UytGnYwV8 swoeWHuqdJdKRgnTHUJS6iFtxIHS1FSvkxdsS9_f0wWtDXvn2r2T4UKwBeT.WNcGrgiJ1v08dx3X pU_xyYoZBoUKgB2mIHDkT7_88WzCOuleWRQ8aEwt.dKKHDkTTrt19V86RvTJBGbpS8vhFlIflQ.Z VEaHpYssfRSNNnoAamGKtBMXrskpnVam2x_yxbUCtHoUInTxNsnyRgkKRyzvXs9Qc7_UE_QTGzLq atzQrg93JdWAf09yt306iJaTZFKz4YE6j1kPFuI.btK01HkU0lvqYlYtG4rRq7_U1udTswBVSK87 Go5K_215pdNAIUlVTsQ-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:34:52 +0000 Received: by smtp427.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e78441b911093b64b3db36886de5beb1; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:34:50 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:34:49 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215223449.355a9ac9@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200215211542.e8cc2827fc4664ea4bcad918@sohara.org> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> <20200215215825.5d3c9a1a@archlinux> <20200215211542.e8cc2827fc4664ea4bcad918@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Kk6k3nTxz4M87 X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.65 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.37)[-0.369,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.79)[-0.792,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[163.176.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.55), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[163.176.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:34:56 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:15:42 +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:58:25 +0100 >Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions >wrote: > >> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 20:20:33 +0000, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >The copyright notice has to be included so you can find out >> >> Where has it to be included for an embedded system? As a big sticker >> on the case "This sandwich toaster does use FreeBSD"? Or just by a >> small note in the appendix of the complete sandwich toaster manual, >> that is mentioned by a link in the printed quick guide? Or just as a >> text file on a memory chip inside of the sandwich toaster? > > Read /COPYRIGHT on your FreeBSD system and then you will know > as much as I do about it. "Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice". IOW if you turn on the sandwich toaster, it provides the copyright notice by stdout. The pitfall is, that the sandwich toaster has got no display that shows stdout. The common man{,ager} isn't a geek. https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/freebsd-copyright-in-osx.72525/#post-441117A From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 21:36:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5796B249786 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:36:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic307-54.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic307-54.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Kk941cDqz4NGC for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:36:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: KW1qJTIVM1kJKKf.WAgB2F0DQynsJcplLnPoMw_25QbO6QUNAE0Rm51DTBiwnPe OnJ3mlsdUxkLvJtIc7ZnfBHOf0FyB6UKCNP7ACgY__APcb_JBMs5gIpZe4n2dKln0h65YCwkGhAO OhrCEJaNZ8Q1obKGcUpxIlHKZsDfueicJUvwkL1Dtbmhe2ehCU2YzL0TCQeajHC7_8z_TW7ReoFr lpj._W4mdNfDRY2SftO7cb9sTv8wkdduhgTLB8tzF1N6rosfF6NQf.J1Iu6t.1iWoO74AhxGSuMu lAS5bJgfqbiclfWnswbxab180YotVzznBE8hu6ur5oQmFq1y0qGVBIXelZLPd8ZM1oJ9GtJLlyXj ffXt_vKbxXyQz59mI7IVPqA0qNY.MZHAYPlHrylmls6G5AS7xiV1X176yIP.cUMyAbJnJ6C0ts6I V8vXnX.0EoYL0q6oOO_R6K396O5QIo8ZKprou6SKv3oln.qHxNRzVcCk3p6wckwIBSBmYaRskOXs SvHRJX.DItHy2eiUWIakA0iAzmfJKoPLN22Do0fBolrNeic.Zk8vBIegcvLSOJAYZ5UeFBBoNPPU LR9vtbwv6loI5EUlJqbDmOOVh5EFA2a72rI8Kfi.bpu5RWSyOZOCZEkKl3ukZ9DrOcMUyZ_kb89X oMot8mFiMm7jd28d9WO2K71_fmsWUEHbG8eCw.Nwg8BTB7jM8mi5ib054GNysiAA4cGtg_6NgG3W ReD8iTFiCPZfvh7lTxiLFqBADBgxMJ0.6ADO0hEE1MYLoGFsC7g31fj8sqqPTZueaZopDj93Ifgf Rkuj1oAJMbmcmqqn5_0NuQ3TxGjSX8Xg04N_FCXgnxsB_WqFALLLUMVhF7EH5ozfz7nfJIvi8zQI FaibYa.Nld4tTmPOGx0hpqazOO6r9jEXvAo7ZBLSG58DzANMvZeVl_qFGu2D9YwaEHxR62Dg_Av1 zlopVpYWnvzfWBFyRysVxIlhh9xGuDMJnjw0RWopNJqRAic40Zqf8dBjBdVGeSzVlNxlbeU8jzZM o8PheMY1X0E7cW5kd6mIEhZXjYFXrPsXRiV2gvXgBpjes0LW4YUJn0_7tOu66PziDjnkyEZG0S9I pCmbomRTWosvAfZZynuI5OrSJA9rKQyJ6uv10NZXrr6HiIbHE9dYEMYAfEyM9Dwr.NGcq4VNPFpf WoA.wTPguQipC4z610bURsSleWVfflQHvafJmML_Gb13U_dpJ0UHKgt.nax370DmptXiDycd3UpK 7arGHtAUj.TKCcLlRshZZsffVugBcRnrFpNDWF5rAzylsK.0yIiwW6DU62dgD154XtukV15r4tOl q.H0Gr67IlPl8Ye.8nWWRmTFNtPL8vsDZEvaGMZusvQ2UCwrFpfEXb574GCmEBHS6VL1.YWHUxJP phbaasC20str9GWo_ Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:36:53 +0000 Received: by smtp405.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID db63f0323e1f090236b06ba188cab09a; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:36:49 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:36:49 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215223649.40196f37@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200215223449.355a9ac9@archlinux> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> <20200215215825.5d3c9a1a@archlinux> <20200215211542.e8cc2827fc4664ea4bcad918@sohara.org> <20200215223449.355a9ac9@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Kk941cDqz4NGC X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.35 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.21)[-0.206,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.65)[-0.653,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[31.110.248.87.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (5.51), ipnet: 87.248.110.0/24(2.34), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[31.110.248.87.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:36:57 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:34:49 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >The common man{,ager} isn't a geek. > >https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/freebsd-copyright-in-osx.72525/#post-441117A The link should read https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/freebsd-copyright-in-osx.72525/#post-441117 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 22:26:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C5E524AC71 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:26:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic304-23.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic304-23.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KlGF1qnnz3MbW for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:26:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: vaQt0M8VM1lcANS3h.Se1pR00oo05Uo.XyVgXhm0LmRtVw8.GCkrwCaF.xpmzIn bhMLma8LBZLp9RBj49.Fu8YIkJMOVsW4nwUxlq5CzVMYANt8sX8UeR0Bz7hF9gXm8AkQBs4UMcLW y5wWinrDwKr6XyqebUMgl4j9wIH_ZMY7BJocMr4zxThDGDmW2JwIloxG1iA4fitycTdeP1cETVpH vpnArctQBnUWsvsujgHQD51aPbk6U7zpq7wj0ixDQ7bMMVsucNC6xvK2PlhF2LMWfAM3dQUaV6pq XtaEpvrVvR0L5q4.NZmdbnTEQFXcje0JLaIr_UDVrExsc3KK8WJrVwKHgdleTky_s.Vpr4C3orP8 AYP92ukYni.T4s5uQuNZt564W12vriGEW6EM3w8cBpFepnf_YLeHXPds683fojJUHrEgxzv3sO_Y QtH8ukJF0.XQbqlObt8n7Zdaa88j30wiezdTa2yS2HQPMI9bntX9uL7Ocqp8426.h32XKw_y6vA_ Pdma.3TL9uASKTV2fmYnefIYPP99HbZvZ_emBZlYbKbm0f7A7XA81Zot.fHK1Lxj9BN7S6KbhjuP 7F_afABKLO7sPLMIrxVD7p4mvowQx0jc0v3W7C8.xBJnEuES3DzrcsQLzh81QqKWaMA1bTHHqTaq 2aMuD.lr7f_6TI2.uzlPBmB386igLIIEfqApiBLFCSsNBvmOmM.d1552Jfu5IxJceicdYgXi7MD1 8KJ.HDAaYhKXtm25q4nZBi_S1etl_aRbBi1snw1RxWYylgYrgu8OCz_W8ZlBy8JB20_dxdysjFEl yQKM9rluqEJqHx3V.GFBG1hT0MU9eHZRhdcs2PrkiG943ww6SVBKUqTBPnR1Pjlftn1.QEh48GMY yDztSszhJW2Dx9H.hpwRhoSFm7v5G1EvUKLUWauxQfby.VIA7FBjfz4sXVt_PPQ_AkADOYlqR59G FagV8qLm06Ho6nnmBQCZF217PGkapqDwgk5ENWfzXUTBdRXVLyfyAj.n29KvmSLSrtNodsMw6noK Gze3RrhvRbljz8xZCWrYRK8NVsFC5LWqpr8BvgFUkW2bsFKmbZPmpm3g5JVDp9dkMqmSV_NUG8q6 HoPOn2oDo_lzqQpsFIppaAv7mBX0XzEHyLcs7Knp1MqwmSSWXZEFmP4GE7.KHXoqDIuByl2l6aRP 45AFwRsXYKBkmgZ3It7aiEUtWzjVfdqodvN3OCNMSRye3eIcmGaKrPMfl4rMjjYxiaWhc1vChq17 s_UNmViDDFAdCS2ipsE3Hmj8BjU0VfgINYjWSuuFiEx9gfrpnHaR_sqYuLewC4bapXiyUI_hMWIS eLkIRWGO5XFPfSlag0WkJNw043bxvOh1RGYp5hReCh4QmnDg_TEZ3UtkPkcuZ8Vldn2_w.W2qZgn Kar1ceaJ2RsI1KT5s Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:26:26 +0000 Received: by smtp406.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 495a02426671a4b2c58709b57a530b82; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:26:24 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:26:23 +0100 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-ID: <20200215232623.7995b06e@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200215223649.40196f37@archlinux> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> <20200215215825.5d3c9a1a@archlinux> <20200215211542.e8cc2827fc4664ea4bcad918@sohara.org> <20200215223449.355a9ac9@archlinux> <20200215223649.40196f37@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KlGF1qnnz3MbW X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.12 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.67)[-0.669,0]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.04)[0.039,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[148.179.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.64), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.16), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:26:30 -0000 Nobody actually knows, if most IoT devices, such as vacuum cleaners, refrigerators and sandwich toasters are using an embedded Linux or BSD. I fear that most of that crap does use Linux. While I prefer Linux over FreeBSD for my needs, this IoT crap could become a reason for me to migrate to FreeBSD, just to express opposition against a step into the wrong direction. There is no need for a sandwich toaster to know how much cheese is inside of the refrigerator and the vacuum cleaner doesn't need information about possible crumbs on the carpet, because the user likes to eat a toasted sandwich. That something is more used then something else, doesn't necessarily indicate that it's the best choice or that the usage is reasonable at all. I bet that more desktop computers on this planet run Windows, than FreeBSD or Linux for tasks, in domains that are better supported by FreeBSD or Linux. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 22:58:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3487A24BA24 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:58:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KlzB0MGhz4CWn for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:58:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.119.79]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MfpjF-1jetz4152H-00gKzU; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:58:23 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:58:22 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215235822.f804ffc6.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200215232623.7995b06e@archlinux> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> <20200215215825.5d3c9a1a@archlinux> <20200215211542.e8cc2827fc4664ea4bcad918@sohara.org> <20200215223449.355a9ac9@archlinux> <20200215223649.40196f37@archlinux> <20200215232623.7995b06e@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:F00ZoUp3bTxb4SpYEv2tkqYZWy6kuKbOzx3kJS1cw2JxgJT8VKO s93Yv/VVyAy7XLVRgnCDS21DxDNC8a3PfbkOIOBMSQLHbUVdziCKptqyhm0E5W63KooKiVv M6Ec2rpVActie2x4RIXs5d/9gFWgq8GfEeA9euooLuQCqIzlSKPhXBSmEY3dstCc7WLvo6m VxVrkoNhyEXsF2xmfYg0g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:bnsRPcgHsfU=:oSnbY1MUnBGkfx9PBYWRol KYB/dHf4+wc5fO2buOCTRXCAtLJlY2ZM8RYdpHw86Yd3XMQWx8E+BGtS+uPjtZPBmI3qIkAyq zsgo6IsWScMyoD6rOfVTp6Qr8OlO1lpmvl7k42Gbaowv5XeXvwO7KJKXFTYi/y+oTtX8gvqHj atd+7eK4kbnaNt6gCnGOdvWico/hFmh92FJYzRY+ZCpogWFKDsKtFcIdjgnsJKFpWPYWtUCOn 9XIpQCs6Ne8Us6KuukF1msSbHhjcjuNzilGw65sL9KrjvwuRb51k9yU2ssfKFPaDNOpXJNd09 i0zmC3S8HdqklW6T6Y0QDktu8F3x/3NpuBR6TbasrtplR0bUo59F1Yexen4CD9xObdlJRjfbv iQSLF7y5nkxPNJoLNIXlAWJzKDpvw8xg07YG19ZfAwHPTIFXJ/e5P6RTO7iMUz9L4W6cv8RIP WBvPM9brOCJJP8ogGMls7bUXKmL6PY8aI4nYd9NK32luhKeRy2tGqpFWAzMkhOe+dtLVztQmX iIzxcOqbCKaSaU8srm1buZHQ0Gbh3OHW4KuaQCFG0qM09wkJoPy/nuMEMr0XWmKogPm8F5bSv uiG5ERzeFVMxpiDDxOAdNkqdnya2cr7SjBPJsqGgulTu+eJ4hhh2xaqTAKDHqT0aFiIwcau+w 2IMHEvajiEMez4AD3ng3392Ev/AmGR0P3Xs9opebgXHGzlzrNhRLZ+ulYg0fBsmr1H0vd1LO/ vDrLFPjHD8eYUEusS74MFnII4FEkyU0MTRgmzbhvr1RYsJw7n7h5OQ2ExM9Y4TUtPvO83sJDZ 9Z5em/a26+tuK/v0fSnTvEoHnjgGh3T84PKkfDHiGWuxSIKbvOz9ZTSkX8vBTsigBFyWSaw X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KlzB0MGhz4CWn X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.83 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[79.119.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.989,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.997,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[133.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.45)[ip: (1.18), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.11), asn: 8560(2.19), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 22:58:31 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:26:23 +0100, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > That something is more used then something else, doesn't necessarily > indicate that it's the best choice or that the usage is reasonable at > all. That's why numbers from "market share" (somehow measured) over "usage share" (actually in use) up to "knowledge share" (known to decision makers) are probably not a good guide to choosing an OS. Furthermore, systems that do not track "unit sales" or "registered installations" are completely out of scope here. > I bet that more desktop computers on this planet run Windows, than > FreeBSD or Linux for tasks, in domains that are better supported by > FreeBSD or Linux. And all of them connect to the Internet, using a device that internally uses a BSD or a Linux, and the bowels of the Internet consist primarily of BSD and Linux. Add "Linux-like things" to the mix, like Android smartphones, or "BSD-like things" like Macs, and numbers might look a little different. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 23:07:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA3E24BCE1 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:07:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.xs4all.nl [83.161.133.58]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "cloudzeeland.nl", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Km9f75fPz4HT0 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:07:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.nl [10.10.10.36]) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C58D10D006B for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 00:07:31 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1581808051; bh=bwmDlyMw6duRQq0RjN3IKanlvYDoKPMz433L3jUXn1Y=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=PudKjqQSqLcqvClJQ+AQFBbOSE4qmw6ejK0kdL/4sAHxKbTAqriISC2bYQzJdOBet yqJmkbUZO35ZcHJogC8JJ/5eFmhn7uxeqQSdFUXUUp4mLZAFDoDo2K2oGR7pmO1uhv Q8BOqqWeFO4VR7RZrsLvMFkjqZo4FqxskEa2G4Ws= Received: from [10.10.10.34] (pion1.rpicloud.nl [82.176.127.71]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34B1C10D006A for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 00:07:31 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1581808051; bh=bwmDlyMw6duRQq0RjN3IKanlvYDoKPMz433L3jUXn1Y=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=PudKjqQSqLcqvClJQ+AQFBbOSE4qmw6ejK0kdL/4sAHxKbTAqriISC2bYQzJdOBet yqJmkbUZO35ZcHJogC8JJ/5eFmhn7uxeqQSdFUXUUp4mLZAFDoDo2K2oGR7pmO1uhv Q8BOqqWeFO4VR7RZrsLvMFkjqZo4FqxskEa2G4Ws= Subject: Re: Removal script To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <24af365c-bfab-b5ac-72e3-675b0450b75f@cloudzeeland.nl> <22f78801-b114-9d00-f521-00250814ab38@cloudzeeland.nl> <20200215163323.9f2e7eef57d32f42f11833d1@sohara.org> From: Jos Chrispijn Organization: Userland rocks! Message-ID: <2000f4cc-3117-8d7f-714e-44e70f17217c@cloudzeeland.nl> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 00:07:32 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200215163323.9f2e7eef57d32f42f11833d1@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP on poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Km9f75fPz4HT0 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=PudKjqQS; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=PudKjqQS; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl designates 83.161.133.58 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cloudzeeland.nl:s=cloud]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl:+]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.28)[ip: (-9.83), ipnet: 83.160.0.0/14(-1.58), asn: 3265(-0.03), country: NL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3265, ipnet:83.160.0.0/14, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:07:36 -0000 On 15-2-20 17:33, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > Give man find a good read while you're at it, it's an astonishingly > powerful tool. I surely will, thanks again. /joz From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 23:12:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B14724BF77 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:12:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KmH51q8Kz4Klb for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:12:10 -0800 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: David Christensen Subject: Booting FreeBSD with MBR, GELI, ZFS, and changing provider names Message-ID: <65eb848c-5c53-4f41-30ef-496c19ad4651@holgerdanske.com> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:12:09 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KmH51q8Kz4Klb X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.939,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.59)[ipnet: 184.104.0.0/15(0.66), asn: 6939(-3.58), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[27.128.105.184.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:12:18 -0000 On 2020-02-13 20:08, David Christensen wrote: > I put my operating system installations on single, small 2.5" SATA > SSD's and I put 2.5" SATA trayless disk bays in my computers. This > both facilitates imaging and allows me to mix and match as required. > > > For FreeBSD, I use ZFS throughout. > > > Not all of my computers support booting from GPT, so I use MBR for > system drives. > > > The default FreeBSD installer wants to use the entire disk, so I > hacked the memstick installer and/or choose the following in the > installer: > > - 1 MiB alignment for everything > > - 14 GiB slice > > - 2 GiB boot partition, copies=2 > > - 2 GiB swap partition, mirrored > > - 10 GiB root partition, copies=2 > > > The most obvious downside is that MBR does not support labels. So, > the FreeBSD boot system uses device node names. This means I have to > ensure that the system drive is always ada0 -- during install, > whenever I move the drive to another machine, and whenever I add or > remove drives or controllers. If the drive comes up as the wrong > device node, I move SATA cables around. Here is the example system: 2020-02-15 13:25:07 toor@beastie ~ # freebsd-version ; uname -a 12.1-RELEASE FreeBSD beastie.tracy.holgerdanske.com 12.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE r354233 GENERIC amd64 Here is the system disk: 2020-02-15 13:18:27 toor@beastie ~ # gpart show -p ada0 ada0s1 => 63 117231345 ada0 MBR (56G) 63 1985 - free - (993K) 2048 29360128 ada0s1 freebsd [active] (14G) 29362176 87869232 - free - (42G) => 0 29360128 ada0s1 BSD (14G) 0 4194304 ada0s1a freebsd-zfs (2.0G) 4194304 4194304 ada0s1b freebsd-swap (2.0G) 8388608 20971520 ada0s1d freebsd-zfs (10G) 2020-02-15 14:02:28 toor@beastie ~ # geli status | egrep 'Name|swap|ada0' Name Status Components ada0s1d.eli ACTIVE ada0s1d mirror/swap.eli ACTIVE mirror/swap 2020-02-15 14:03:11 toor@beastie ~ # zpool list | egrep 'NAME|boot|root' NAME SIZE ALLOC FREE CKPOINT EXPANDSZ FRAG CAP DEDUP HEALTH ALTROOT beastie_zroot 9.50G 1.05G 8.45G - - 2% 11% 1.04x ONLINE - bootpool 1.88G 158M 1.72G - - 0% 8% 1.00x ONLINE - 2020-02-15 14:03:40 toor@beastie ~ # zfs list | egrep 'NAME|boot|root ' NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT beastie_zroot 1.10G 8.15G 88K /beastie_zroot bootpool 157M 1.60G 156M /bootpool Note that there are no labels on the partitions: 2020-02-15 13:19:10 toor@beastie ~ # gpart show -p -l ada0 ada0s1 => 63 117231345 ada0 MBR (56G) 63 1985 - free - (993K) 2048 29360128 ada0s1 (null) [active] (14G) 29362176 87869232 - free - (42G) => 0 29360128 ada0s1 BSD (14G) 0 4194304 ada0s1a (null) (2.0G) 4194304 4194304 ada0s1b (null) (2.0G) 8388608 20971520 ada0s1d (null) (10G) Here is /boot/loader.conf: 2020-02-15 14:11:12 toor@beastie ~ # cat /boot/loader.conf aesni_load="YES" geli_ada0s1d_keyfile0_load="YES" geli_ada0s1d_keyfile0_name="/boot/encryption.key" geli_ada0s1d_keyfile0_type="ada0s1d:geli_keyfile0" geom_eli_load="YES" geom_eli_passphrase_prompt="YES" geom_mirror_load="YES" kern.geom.label.disk_ident.enable="0" kern.geom.label.gptid.enable="0" opensolaris_load="YES" vfs.root.mountfrom="zfs:beastie_zroot/ROOT/default" zfs_load="YES" zpool_cache_load="YES" zpool_cache_name="/boot/zfs/zpool.cache" zpool_cache_type="/boot/zfs/zpool.cache" If the provider names change, the FreeBSD boot process will fail when it reaches the point of decrypting the root partition -- it prompts for the passphrase, I enter the correct passphrase, the correct passphrase is rejected, the process repeats two more times, and then I am locked out. I am trying to figure out how to get the above FreeBSD system disk to boot correctly when the provider names change. This includes moving the system image between HDD's, SSD's, and USB flash drives with dd(1) (e.g. provider names ada* and da*). I am curious about the following tunables in /boot/loader.conf: kern.geom.label.disk_ident.enable="0" kern.geom.label.gptid.enable="0" loader.conf(5) mentions: kern.geom.label.*.enable Where are these two tunables documented, and does the following tunable exist? kern.geom.label.eli.enable Also, my ZFS data disks use GPT, have GPT labels, and they work. Looking at the /boot/loader.conf settings, above, I would expect that GPT labels should not work (?). (The solution on Debian GNU/Linux is to use /dev/disk/by-partuuid/* for swap and UUID=* for root in /etc/crypttab.) On 2020-02-14 22:50, Dewayne Geraghty wrote: > when using "glabel status" I can see both the glabel assigned label > and the tunefs file system label on an MBR usb drive > > label/ss1 N/A da0s2d ufs/ss1 N/A da0s2d label/keys N/A > da0s2e ufs/keys N/A da0s2e On 2020-02-15 06:30, RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > You can use glabel to label the drive, or label the individual > partitions. On 2020-02-15 11:14, Polytropon wrote: > Actually, there are several possible methods for labeling: > > 1. glabel (GEOM label) example: /dev/label/usr > > 2. tunefs label (UFS permanent label) example: /dev/ufs/usr > > 3. UFS-ID example: /dev/ufsid/486b6fc16926168e > > Sources: > > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/geom-glabel.html > > http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/labels.html The first URL provided by Polytropon and 'man glabel' both indicate that glabel(8) labels are written to the last sector of a provider. Neither states what happens when the provider contains GELI. I am hesitant to try it and break my system. 'man tunefs' indicates that tunefs(8) is for UFS. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 23:15:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC62324C0AB for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:15:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KmLd5V64z4Lx6 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:15:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581808522; x=1584400522; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=ZddyxzVk4qlvo/xYD5ZuyllwlqH0XM9Lq9LqjlV15v4=; b=EOsyvmZkyUpeRwQK/kuuQIkuAY134vKb2OjG7rFgVtTYVIoLjoQZJaEnAwvK6RsD8zGewVEopmOrsGFFZXuGYBYj76j8W9XLCigyj/9Br9kI0iD4QsbeRhwRejnmFTDHpQq6yBc6rtCbD8iSFCw/3uRhxTkE2YRBoeuShfrsFoY= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDU1MTQ4ZC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r4.h.in.socketlabs.com (s1-b40f.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.180.15]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:15:10 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r4.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:15:09 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j36eS-000HTI-RK; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:15:08 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:15:08 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Ralf Mardorf Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215231508.ca17067a03bc9c71840c38ee@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215232623.7995b06e@archlinux> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> <20200215215825.5d3c9a1a@archlinux> <20200215211542.e8cc2827fc4664ea4bcad918@sohara.org> <20200215223449.355a9ac9@archlinux> <20200215223649.40196f37@archlinux> <20200215232623.7995b06e@archlinux> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KmLd5V64z4Lx6 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=EOsyvmZk; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.26), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.53), asn: 7381(0.27), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[rocketmail.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:15:23 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:26:23 +0100 Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > That something is more used then something else, doesn't necessarily > indicate that it's the best choice or that the usage is reasonable at > all. Quite so very few people have a good overview of the options and sometimes the best choice is simply overlooked. Edward de Bono ran some interesting experiments that showed this up, one observation was that people have a strong tendency to try and use all the resources that might help when a better, but less obvious, solution is available using only some of them. > I bet that more desktop computers on this planet run Windows, than Of course. > FreeBSD or Linux for tasks, in domains that are better supported by > FreeBSD or Linux. More so in the data centre than on the desktop, but even there I'd far rather write a document in troff or LaTeX than do battle with Word. Back in the mid 1980s I set a thousand page reference book using a database query feeding troff on an 80286 Xenix machine. Try doing that with MS Office on a modern desktop that has more than a thousand times as much memory and processing power as that Xenix machine had. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 23:17:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F1B24C242 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:17:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KmNn3NCPz4MjP for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:17:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:17:10 -0800 Subject: Re: some questions about disk partitioning and filesystems and booting To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200213150229.GC14144@bastion.zyxst.net> <091dd3af-7b99-267f-7d04-541b6d651926@holgerdanske.com> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <65b3d4f9-a98f-1c07-1c9e-511b302eeef4@holgerdanske.com> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:17:06 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KmNn3NCPz4MjP X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.923,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.60)[ipnet: 184.104.0.0/15(0.66), asn: 6939(-3.58), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[27.128.105.184.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:17:14 -0000 On 2020-02-14 22:50, Dewayne Geraghty wrote: > In regard to running without swap and crashing, you may have overlooked > setting: > vm.swap_enabled=0 > vm.nswapdev=0 > (taken from a system without swap that's been running for a few years) > > My use of swap, like you, is limited to wanting a mini kernel dump, and > using swap space for memory devices (mdconfig). Though I do have swap > on another disk when I really need all of memory to be dumped, which has > been about once in 10 years ;) Thanks for the pointer. I will keep that in mind if/when I want to run a FreeBSD system without swap. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 23:29:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22FF24C6C5 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:29:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48Kmg834kXz4St2 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:29:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1581809380; x=1584401380; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=02MbxWw7EPIyJ82mrur2JzYIOpdzA3/Jn6/ydY4VVhk=; b=GrXxozo7EKLF/ry2MpT2gm48rTlHPCbvWmekYSwoDvoUKAu2sKjwu2eaW+AHL+rFLSLZ28rgMq590whNF00oVqyXj+wPI7+G+HSUFeF0bl0BjNIb2HS6Tvms2Qx5RKmQGzGx6ZfQ1o6Jof7nzQgXxKVId7C1WHVWKPQ/13btWgk= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi43NDAwMDAwMDU1MWUwNi5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.11]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:29:34 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:29:33 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1j36sN-000HW6-Jk; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:29:31 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:29:31 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Technological advantages over Linux Message-Id: <20200215232931.5a9132b2e83daa2d0a06dac8@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200215235822.f804ffc6.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200214121620.GA80657@admin.sibptus.ru> <1848571509.3253011.1581719423989@mail.yahoo.com> <20200215195303.464e585a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200215202033.6c856b8f7639b304d96e68ce@sohara.org> <20200215215825.5d3c9a1a@archlinux> <20200215211542.e8cc2827fc4664ea4bcad918@sohara.org> <20200215223449.355a9ac9@archlinux> <20200215223649.40196f37@archlinux> <20200215232623.7995b06e@archlinux> <20200215235822.f804ffc6.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48Kmg834kXz4St2 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=GrXxozo7; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (-0.26), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.53), asn: 7381(0.27), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:29:41 -0000 On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:58:22 +0100 Polytropon wrote: > And all of them connect to the Internet, using a device that > internally uses a BSD or a Linux, and the bowels of the Internet > consist primarily of BSD and Linux. Add "Linux-like things" to > the mix, like Android smartphones, or "BSD-like things" like > Macs, and numbers might look a little different. The late Morten Reistad used to post (in alt.folklore.computers) about the numbers of processors with memory management being made and comparing that with Windows licenses, Apple and Android phone production numbers. Windows, MacOs and commercial unix licenses only account for a small fraction of the CPUs made - most of them have to be running something else Linux (Android, routers, TVs, cars ...), BSD (routers and who knows what else) and Mach (iThingies) being the obvious available kernels. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Feb 15 23:36:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D476124CA91 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:36:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48KmqS4w8cz4XWq for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:36:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id r19so14710116ljg.3 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:36:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Kx237E/Co8h8vKAhbAekd/m5eL+PUyr/LYDRXruT638=; b=j9NtNXAqZu1+z5vBObNXUPzCXffeAjUn4+ci9yzxJSA1IX1WVXAql4FfH45h+DSTru JSKfrsAnWMCnyZLN+8tr/0yJA5V8U5LmWNJXpKwi3x0d1Xi6RDg8s9djWkjgp3XJRCp4 AuDu3k+AqJscHmjlxBBTD1U5wFYgwUBsFMogPFOFqVRlsponw2J5PxMTZKZuoCoRW/y0 YbFEA7Gb9wsnY9WZ+hU0TwX3mUFgnS/xalUAgQR1ch5EfRm4kL+J29nqU20DRxmjKW1H KhPnVgZcv7pbI+JM9n9Iz4VEPojmcBk6Nm3vZ606ZBGGQeezF9bekdoszrnbCMmh1Y7X 2HxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Kx237E/Co8h8vKAhbAekd/m5eL+PUyr/LYDRXruT638=; b=Yn3EobFWC4sumPY+G8B0WfdgS+vsMggzOxkhmy/xqmDtar3z2tK7C28LstFAP8ApEX qTAAlePtWcUhiJZK8e9odfW36qlsj/nWoRQvQK/QgBk6oPgGfHC8gtuMyFZQjZvFz7ii v5KSg0N3yDHna4u1DBZHcl+naOphPxNvuWO5jTOl2i1Lqj3TzcHtqB/J39Oke2A1GSYK NA4w6HUhQbar9jf72chELggWOtrSL1tp5z981nQgbTmFp4YhjCGmrHkAdeVeBATP7MCd Lk7a8Xuv8MXKzdmU1TK8kRqLBvBPSyUuL9iKTXtbupsiRhVly3h7Nu3dFzssCeH5Jg9t auMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV0FGKwHAlRA35s+pYEow/S65TjYOI/hLkoVYbLS2Uf/tGN3aBg CvygjGOvD5War9/iZIyJd9Oyq1a4uQJmlpXrughgYw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy1p7wH7674K5i0SvHFtmT3//Eh5Z2WvJXwpnk4itoL/qxnlnerw1hgjp9BlEkazsRuUAWPOfcWobiaGnbTeB8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7818:: with SMTP id t24mr5692172ljc.195.1581809810435; Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:36:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Noah Palmer Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 18:36:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Update X when laptop lip is closed To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 48KmqS4w8cz4XWq X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=j9NtNXAq; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=noahpalmerversion1@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.26), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.42), asn: 15169(-1.68), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[f.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 23:36:53 -0000 is there a way to automatically remove or add the display to X when the laptop lid is opened or closed. I have been using a script to read dev.acpi_lid.0.state, but is there better way? Also what is the proper way to reply to someone while using a mailing list. Do you reply to the person or freebsd-questions@freebsd.org. -- Noah Palmer