From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 9 13:51:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9A837B400 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from directvinternet.com (dsl-65-185-140-165.telocity.com [65.185.140.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F2D43E65 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:51:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nwestfal@directvinternet.com) Received: from Tolstoy.home.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by directvinternet.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g89Kp0Gd052303; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nwestfal@directvinternet.com) Received: from localhost (nwestfal@localhost) by Tolstoy.home.lan (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) with ESMTP id g89Kox9J052300; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:50:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Tolstoy.home.lan: nwestfal owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:50:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Neal E. Westfall" X-X-Sender: nwestfal@Tolstoy.home.lan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Joshua Lee , , Subject: Re: Why did evolution fail? In-Reply-To: <3D7CF512.ED0C4E8B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020909133707.S1838-100000@Tolstoy.home.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > So what is the criteria for determining "fitness"? Those who > > survive? But then this just leads us into a logical tautology, > > whereby the mechanism for evolution amounts to "the survival of > > the survivors." > > "The survival of those best suited to survive", actually. It is still a triviality. Of course those "best suited to survive" will survive. > > How is "fitness" determined? > > As an attribute of an organism, it is determined by suitability > to its environment. I don't really have a problem with adaptation, per se when limited to within species. What really strikes me as absurd though, is the idea that chance mutations can give rise to new functionality, for that functionality is not functional until everything is plugged in and working. What possible purpose could a partially evolved sex organ have, for instance? > > > > Why is the reification of nature justified in order to save > > > > evolutionary theory? > > > > > > Nature *is* concrete, *not* abstract. There is no reifying of > > > nature happening here. You can only reify an *abstract* thing. > > > > Sorry. Wrong word. What I meant was "personify." > > You probably meant anthropormorphise, as in "endow it with attributes > normally associated with humans". > > The answer is that nature is not anthropomorphised (or personified) > by having the power to select, so long as it does not exhibit will > in the process. But does this not present a difficulty? With no will to do the selecting, "the power to select" is completely unintelligible. > > > > "Selection" implies intentionality, > > > > > > To people without a complex vocabulary. Perhaps it was a bad choice > > > to use the compound word "natural selection", since it permits those > > > people to make this mistake. > > > > Actually it is an oxymoron invented by natural biologists to obscure > > the fact (from themselves, as well as others) that evolutionary theory > > implies an absurdity. > > Your internal logic is almost endearing. 8-). Why, thank you! 8-) > > > With theologians still able to claim that God controls chance, of > > > course. > > > > Actaully theologians would never admit to such an absurd concept. If > > controlled by God, it is not random at all. > > Alternately, they would claim that everything was controlled by God, > and that randomness is an absurdity. As you have done. 8-). Yeah, exactly! 8-) Neal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message