From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 06:57:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D8016A4D0 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (ussenterprise.ufp.org [208.185.30.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DCA043D2F for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bicknell@ussenterprise.ufp.org) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (bicknell@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i07Evj2x075303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bicknell@localhost) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i07EviOb075302 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:57:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:57:44 -0500 From: Leo Bicknell To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107145744.GA74418@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: United Federation of Planets X-PGP-Key: http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:57:49 -0000 --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message written on Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 02:09:33AM +0100, Brad Knowles= wrote: > FreeBSD-5 was always going to be problematical. There have=20 > probably been more things changed for this major version than for any=20 > previous major version in history, maybe even for all previous major=20 > versions combined. They bit off a great big honking whackload with=20 > this version, and they knew it. That's why we're so far behind the=20 > original release timetable (one year? two years?). >=20 > Any reasonable production-oriented plan would have been to stick=20 > with 4.x until such time as 5.x has been declared "STABLE", and then=20 > wait for another minor release or two after that. Timetables can=20 > (and do) slip, so you'd have to build that into the picture. Speaking with a user hat on, I'll comment on what I believe is the crux of the 5.x issue. You are 100% right, in that all documentation, communication from FreeBSD developers and soforth has pointed to remain on 4.x for "production" machines until 5.x has a stable release, and that it will be a while. =46rom a practical point of view that has been rapidly breaking down over the last 6-12 months. People need features in 5.x. Various people have decided (for good reason, I'm not questioning the decisions) that a large number of features go into 5.x, and because of the difficulty in back porting don't go into 4.x. Indeed, the only reason I'm running -current now is I need support for an Atheros wireless card. The take away I see is that this was too big of a chunk. The next bite planned needs to be smaller. You can't delay one year or two years in a production environment. New hardware needs drivers in that time. New protocols become production deployed in that time. I am also a firm believer that having all the developers focused so much on meeting deadlines for all this new complexity leaves them out of time to deal with the PR's that have been piling up. For FreeBSD to appeal to the masses it must install on the latest and greatest Dell or Gateway or whatever, which means it must include drivers for today's cheaper-by-the-gross parts from China. Driver updates in particular need to be very regular, and in the active -STABLE release, which for now means back-ported to 4.x, even if that means a complete rewrite because of how different the kernels are. Otherwise people get forced to run 5.x for a few driver issues, and then complain like crazy about all the other stuff that's not ready for prime time. Mom said it best, small bites, chew with your mouth closed. --=20 Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//B5oNh6mMG5yMTYRAhc+AJ43xfQ8YoHwd82qfV1TdLc2IHWGqQCaAxBt pP9h3KcjpEv6aBQKt33xDFc= =Zms3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s--