Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:16:43 -0700 From: Nick Pavlica <linicks@gmail.com> To: "em1897@aol.com" <em1897@aol.com> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.x Opteron Question Message-ID: <dc9ba04405031917166b5dd4d3@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8C6FAF6C2C2F283-4FC-1280B@mblk-r24.sysops.aol.com> References: <20050318233039.33837.qmail@web90209.mail.scd.yahoo.com> <8C6FA2D0FF4CB85-BFC-1014C@mblk-r32.sysops.aol.com> <dc9ba04405031818452f544eeb@mail.gmail.com> <8C6FA491F181F0E-864-1095A@mblk-r42.sysops.aol.com> <dc9ba04405031915053da7e282@mail.gmail.com> <8C6FAF6C2C2F283-4FC-1280B@mblk-r24.sysops.aol.com>
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I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one working on Saturday. I understand the business aspect of things, I have business that rely on this technology as well. The developers "Robert W."... don't owe us anything because we are not paying them. We didn't marry into there family, and didn't pull them out of a burning building. Without the free work that they have contributed, the work that I have contributed, and the thousands of others that have donated there time and money we wouldn't be able to exploit there work for our gain. I feel that it's important to give back, and clearly you do as well or you wouldn't be helping people on this list. I believe that this is reason enough to help the 5.x effort. We could choke everyone of the developers, but the fact remains that they are the developers of FreeBSD, and they are moving forward with these technologies. There is absolutely nothing wrong with staying on 4.x, and I know that you have to do what is right for you. What I'm advocating is that 5.x currently performs well enough to meet the performance needs for many organizations and can be used in production systems. It's also important to work on the problems at hand so that when 6.x is release it's what you and many others are expecting from it. I may sound like a politician, but as an Engineer and a Businessman I have grown accustom to looking at the bigger picture. When you test drive a car you are looking at more than how fast you can go from stop light to stop light. What is the fuel mileage, warranty, cost, color, etc. This is precisely how/why I got involved with this community and moved away from my RedHat roots. The funny thing is that I was making the exact same argument that you are against 5.x a few months ago to my team after comparing the disk I/O performance between 4.11 and 5.3. With some help from members of this community I was able to improve performance dramatically on 5.3 and noticed further improvement on 5.4. FreeBSD will continue to improve, but it isn't going to magically happen. It's likely that we will not completely agree with each other on this topic, but enjoy the being able to discuss both perspectives. --Nick On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:59:02 -0500, em1897@aol.com <em1897@aol.com> wrote: > You sound more like a politician than an engineer, Nick. I'm not a > guinea pig, > and I have a business to run,and I'm not going to spend an extra $400. > per > system to to get the same speed as with 4.x just to be one of the > fellas. > I have no obligation to care about their plight, just as they've > informed me > that they have no obligation to care about the needs of anyone in > their user base. > > As for leadership, the FreeBSD developers told everyone that 5.3 was da > bomb, > and that 5.4 would be better, but if you get Robert Watson in a > choke-hold > he'll admit that its going to be the 6.x before they are where they > should be > now. The truth is that the model they chose for 5.x just plain doesn't > work. > If you get a charge out of playing follow the bozos, good for you. But > I have > a car, and when the new model comes out I might test drive it, and if > it sucks > I'll either keep my old car or buy something else. For now I'm slapping > a coat of > wax on 4.x and hoping that someone figures it out shortly. I chose > freeBSD > initially over linux not because there's a bunch of good guys on the > project, but > because it was good. I'll stick with 4.x for the same reasons. > Personally I think > its going to be a long, long time before FreeBSD is any good anymore. > And > I don't have that kind of time. The entire point of the project is to > improve > SMP performance, and several years in its worse than it was before. > What > evidience is there that there is an end to this ridiculous tunnel? > > -----Original Message----- > > Hello, > > On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:16:05 -0500, em1897@aol.com <em1897@aol.com> > wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Nick Pavlica <linicks@gmail.com> > > To: em1897@aol.com <em1897@aol.com> > > Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > Sent: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:45:44 -0700 > > Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.x Opteron Question > > > > :em1897, > > : I'm curious how you are testing. In my testing, the 5.4 pre IP > > :stack performed very well. I was able to get 100% more throughput > > :than Linux (2.6.10 FC3) under heavy load on the exact same hardware. > > :I was actually surprised at the difference because I have been a > Linux > > :Zellot for years. I didn't see any packet loss in my tests, but I do > > :have good quality networking gear and servers. I was happy enough > > :after my testing that I'm going to move my 4.x servers to 5.4 when > > :it's released. I haven't tested dragonfly yet, but get all the > > :performance I need out of FreeBSD. > > : > > :--Nick > > > > on a side note, I thought top posting was a no-no? I see gmail has the > > same issues as AOL. Or are the issues with the old farts with their > > newsreaders? :-) > > > > I don't get your logic. You are converting your servers from 4.x to > 5.4 > > because you've found that 5.4 is faster than linux? Is that some sort > > of riddle? FreeBSD has always been faster than linux; I'm comparing > > FreeBSD 4.x to 5.4, so I'm not sure what linux has to do with > > anything here. > > I guess I was a little vague :). I brought up Linux because you > mentioned it in your earlier post, and wanted to share my results with > it. Additionally, I have used Linux in many projects over the years > and like to use it as a baseline of comparison. The point that I was > trying to make was that I was getting good results with 5.4 in my > tests. I have been pitting 4.x against 5.x since I began using > FreeBSD for my projects. The 4.x series does have an excellent > performance record that can't be questioned, however, 5.x gets the > job done for me. > > > > > What you can "get" in terms of throughput doesn't always give you > > the right answer. My tests measure kernel performance; as I'm > > interested in routing/packet-processing performance. Sockets add > > a tricky variable. But I take the IP stack out of the equation > > altogether > > by bridging packets through a box, and I prefer to use a 50% load > > as timings sometimes change when you start to saturate things > > unnaturally. You won't be running your machine at 100% load, so > > it makes no sense to test it that way. > > > > For the latest test I have a 3.06Ghz xeon bridging 486,000pps. > > For FreeBSD 4.9, this is a 50% load. The load under 5.4 is 65%. > > It tests interrupt and process switching performance, which for > > a networking device is a key performance indicator. (I think) > > that the 5.4 kernel is threaded, so there are latencies that > > are very difficult to overcome. Linux has been threaded for > > a long time, and always has been a poor Uniprocessor > > performer. 5.4 is better than linux with one processor, > > but if you are UP then > > 4.x is clearly the way to go. Linux kills 5.4 with dual > > processors; in fact 5.4 seems to have higher network > > performance with 1 processor than 2. They still have > > a lot of issues to work out. DragonflyBSD has done a > > nice job with MP, but their performance is still a work > > in progress. For UP, their performance is dismal so > > its not quite where it needs to be, but its promising. > > > > My tests are focused around simple network I/O and saturate all the > other subsystems before making the kernel break a sweat, MP or UP. > Curiously, all of my tests have never caused excessive CPU utilization > on 5.x, and do seem to consume more CPU resources on 4.x. I was > attributing this behavior to the scheduling and GIANT lock issues of > 5.x . It's interesting to learn about your testing and that you are > capable of stressing the Kernel so easily. The tests I perform I > utilize my production and non production applications so that I could > measure what the net affect of OS performance would be in my > environment. I used to focus tests on more esoteric what if > scenarios, even trying to optimize my code before it was done, etc. I > have found over the years that performance is a tricky beast to catch. > Being a performance junkie like myself tends to make me focus on the > performance that I don't need rather than the performance that I do. > I still think about the 400HP Camero that I drove to get groceries, > and it still puts a smile on my face. > > > I just wish that they had done a 64-bit version of > > 4.x. Because at the moment it seems that there is > > no way to utilize the opteron fully without having > > to use a slow version of the OS, which negates > > the gains. Its a real shame. > > The bottom line in all of this is that 5.x and newer is where FreeBSD > is going and 4.x and older is now legacy software weather we like it > or not. In my mind this puts us in a postion to do one of the > following: > 1) Focus our efforts on 4.11 that's being replaced anyway. > 2) Stop using FreeBSD and use Linux, Solaris, OpenBSD, ...... > 3) Write our own OS that will solve all the worlds problems. > 4) Accept the leadership and direction of the FreeBSD team and help > them make 5.x and newer the OS that we know that it can be. > > Clearly option 4 is the best choice for FreeBSD and it's users for a > number of reasons. The developers need people to use the software > that they are working on so that they can improve it. In your case > you could help the developers identify the performance issues that you > are facing so that they can make improvements that would benefit you > and all the other users that need routing/packet-processing > performance. The dramatic changes made 5.x and newer can't be over > stated. Essentially they are writing a new OS the hard way. They > have to keep one foot behind while trying to move people forward with > very few resources. I'm truly amazed that they have made it this far. > Additionally, the core team chose to implement technologies that are > technically superior, but are very difficult to implement. Even with > the massive amount of resources that the Linux community has, they > have opted to hold off on these types of technologies for easier > solutions until they can implement them down the road. If we as a > community, get on board with the developers we will ultimately be able > to take advantage of these technologies, and will have a mature > solution when other projects are just starting to go down this > difficult journey. > > I didn't really realize this myself until recently and wanted to share > my perspective. I know this has gotten of topic from the original > post and I apologize for that. > > --Nick > > > > > > > On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:55:14 -0500, em1897@aol.com <em1897@aol.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > :Boris, > > > : I would agree that my initial impression of 5.3 was that it was > > slow > > > :compared to 4.x. After some tuning, I now have 5.3 running at an > > > :acceptable performance level. You may want to start testing the > > newer > > > :versions of 5 current. I have noticed improved performance on my > > test > > > :servers and believe that 5.4 will demonstrate an improvement in > > > :performance. I know that the guys on the performance list would > like > > > :to get some good feedback if you find any specific bottlenecks with > > it > > > :as well. > > > : > > > :--Nick > > > > > > FYI, I recently testing bridging/network performance on 5.4-pre and > > its > > > about the same as 5.3: 25 to 30% more CPU load for the same traffic > > > levels than 4.x. SMP drops packets at about 60% load and seems to > > > have a lower capacity than UP. I'm sure some things are faster, but > > > networking is a large component for most people I think. > > > Threaded network stacks just don't seem to perform well, > > > certainly not on UP. Linux MP works much better, but > > > with 2 CPUs it has the capacity of FreeBSD 4.x with 1. > > > So its hard to justify. > > > > > > FWIW, its quite a bit better with UP than DragonFLY, but > > > dragonfly is much better with 2 processors. > > > > > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:51:43 -0800 (PST), Boris Spirialitious > > > <hardcodeharry@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- cyb <cyb.@gmx.net> wrote: > > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/platforms/amd64.html > > > > > > > > > > Looks like you will need to use 5.3-release (or > > > > > 5.3-stable/5.4-prerelease if you have more than > > > > > 4GB). > > > > > > > > > > Why can you not use 5.3? > > > > > > > > 5.3 is too slow, and we have custom code. Why use > > > > faster hardware just to use slower version of O/S? > > > > Please don't start with flames. This is what I > > > > feel. > > > > > > > > I don't need so much RAM, so 4.x will work with > > > > 1 or 2GB of RAM? > > > > > > > > Boris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 09:43 -0800, Boris > > > > > Spirialitious wrote: > > > > > > --- Boris Spirialitious <hardcodeharry@yahoo.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > When opteron support start for Freebsd? I have > > > > > 4.9. > > > > > > > is supported? Or 4.11 better? I can't use 5.x. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will a i386 disk boot on opteron system? Can I > > > > > > > use same disk image for intel and amd MBs? Any > > > > > > > big problems? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boris > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know answer please? Someone must use > > > > > > Opteron here > > > > > > > > > > > > Boris > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > GnuPG key : 0xD25FCC81 | > > > > > http://cyb.websimplex.de/pubkey.asc > > > > > Fingerprint: D182 6F22 7EEC DD4C 0F6E 564C 691B > > > > > 0372 D25F CC81 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > > > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >
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