From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 1:33:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E69337B652 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:33:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 2780 invoked by uid 211); 9 Apr 2000 08:32:26 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:02:26 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Taylor Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000409140225.A2643@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brett@peloton.runet.edu on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:11:50PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > French are known to be touchy about imports of American words, but > > concepts like "hot dog" and "internet" didn't exist in France earlier, > > and to me it makes little sense to invent new words for these when > > perfectly good words for these are already in use everywhere else.... > > If you think they were touchy about "hot dog" you can probably imagine the > uproar when physicists started talking about "black holes." I'll let you > figure out what the French word for that is. :-) Interesting. What about top and bottom quarks, bra and ket vectors, etc? My impression was that the physicists themselves don't care, but maybe L'Academie does. How about standard Unix stuff like touch, finger, sleep, and so on? Is there a French version of Unix? Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 5:51:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E1537B540 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 05:41:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA84466; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:40:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Brett Taylor Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Apr 2000 14:40:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Taylor's message of "Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:11:50 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Taylor writes: > On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > French are known to be touchy about imports of American words, but > > concepts like "hot dog" and "internet" didn't exist in France earlier, > > and to me it makes little sense to invent new words for these when > > perfectly good words for these are already in use everywhere else.... > If you think they were touchy about "hot dog" you can probably imagine the > uproar when physicists started talking about "black holes." I'll let you > figure out what the French word for that is. :-) "trou noir". What's the problem? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 5:52:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79DEC37B506 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 05:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA84480; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:46:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Marco Molteni Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <8cgj1a$313f$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Apr 2000 14:46:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: Marco Molteni's message of "Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:21:59 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marco Molteni writes: > I would like to introduce you all to a language where there is NO > difference between spelling and pronunciation: Italian. I am wondering > if there are other languages with this feature. Finnish. Finnish grammar, on the other hand, is hell. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 6: 2: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEAD37B5C9 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:01:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA84502; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:59:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: netscape 6 References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Apr 2000 14:59:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Scheidt's message of "Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:46:11 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > Has anyone gotten the Linux version of netscape 6 to work on FreeBSD? I get > a floating point error, and a core dump, but I haven't had a chance to > really mess with it. Why bother, when you can just as well grab the latest Mozilla sources and build a native version? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 6: 2: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF84837B5B9 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:01:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA84498; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:58:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Nathan Dorfman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fun with new TLD References: <3.0.6.32.20000406160909.0091ae10@mail85.pair.com> <20000406170549.B24832@rtfm.net> <3.0.6.32.20000406160909.0091ae10@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407160934.008fed60@mail85.pair.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Apr 2000 14:58:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: "G. Adam Stanislav"'s message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:09:34 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: > Hehe, if my home country allowed its expatriots to register domains, [...] ITYM "expatriates". HTH, HAND! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 6:32:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124B037B767 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:32:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id PAA07240 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:32:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA55022 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:27:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Spellings Date: 9 Apr 2000 15:27:02 +0200 Message-ID: <8cq0f6$1ln0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Taylor wrote: > > French are known to be touchy about imports of American words, > > If you think they were touchy about "hot dog" you can probably imagine the > uproar when physicists started talking about "black holes." I'll let you > figure out what the French word for that is. :-) A calque: "trou noir". I'm not sure what you are aiming at. There is a rumor that the literal translation of black hole is already taken in Russian, but I haven't verified that yet. Besides, what's so bad about "collapsar"? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 6:45:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C0F37B779 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id PAA06399 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:30:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA54734 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:22:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Spellings Date: 9 Apr 2000 15:22:18 +0200 Message-ID: <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407202917.A1417@sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > By the way, I think one reason for the confusing nature of English > spellings is that it has imported words from languages all over the > world, often with little modification in spelling if the original > script was the same, and it continues to do so. First, I think the tendency of English to pick up loans is overstated. A whole lot of words imported during the colonial period and referring to foreign plants, animals, and cultures are actually in pan-European use. English was reshaped by the large influx of Romance vocabulary after the Norman invasion, but that has been a historical event for a few centuries now. The central problem of Modern English spelling is that it is more or less a phonemic representation of Middle English and ignores the substantial sound shifts that occurred since. Probably you would have to trace the outright irregularities individually to explain them. Tradition and inconsequential regularization attempts are good guesses. > But that's also a strength, and it's at least one reason it's > spoken so widely. The global role of English has nothing whatsoever to do with features inherent in the language itself. Rather, it's a consequence from the political, economical, and cultural dominance of first the British Empire in the 19th and later the United States in the 20th century. This applies equally to previous languages in that position, e.g. Greek in the ancient Mediterranean, Latin in medieval and Renaissance Europe, Low German in the Hanseatic League, French in 18th century Europe. For former British colonies English is also a convenient choice as a neutral language since it doesn't give an advantage or an emphasis to any of the resident ethnic groups. I think India is an example for this. French has the same role in parts of Africa. > The French are known to be touchy about imports of American words, > but concepts like "hot dog" and "internet" didn't exist in France > earlier, and to me it makes little sense to invent new words for > these when perfectly good words for these are already in use > everywhere else.... Well, *somebody* had to coin the English neologism, too. Creating your own neologism or a calque is as valid an approach as borrowing a foreign word, and you don't run into problems with phonotactics and spelling. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 8:33:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14A737B537 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:31:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02404; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:25:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:25:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On 9 Apr 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Brett Taylor writes: > > If you think they were touchy about "hot dog" you can probably > > imagine the uproar when physicists started talking about "black > holes." I'll let you figure out what the French word for that is. > "trou noir". What's the problem? As I noted in some other message, I only know French as it pertains to biking so I don't know if that's the correct word, but apparently French physicists were annoyed when John Wheeler coined the word "black hole" because it translated to anus. (accounts of their annoyance can be found in a number of places, the one I can remember right now is Kip Thorne's _Black Holes, Wormholes and Time Warps_). Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 9: 5: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4716837BF54 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:04:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id SAA17424 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:02:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA55976 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:46:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: BSDCon East Date: 9 Apr 2000 15:46:39 +0200 Message-ID: <8cq1jv$1mkq$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000407223946.A57071@mithrandr.moria.org> <20000407134927.A9405@sofia.csl.sri.com> <20000407230049.B57071@mithrandr.moria.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: [Xhosa] > It's actually a very beautiful language, but the curriculum I learnt > at school wasn't very good, and I haven't been able to find another > way to learn it. Uh... > nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za ^^ I guess that question is naive, but shouldn't you be able to find Xhosa speakers there? Different region? Different social strata? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 9: 9:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D205537B8A8 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id SAA17946 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:05:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56283 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:58:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: BSDCon East Date: 9 Apr 2000 15:58:23 +0200 Message-ID: <8cq29v$1mud$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marco Molteni wrote: > I would like to introduce you all to a language where there is NO > difference between spelling and pronunciation: Italian. Italian is certainly very regular in this respect. (BTW, why? Hasn't written Italian been largely the same since Dante's times? A lot of time for irregularities to creep in.) > I am wondering if there are other languages with this feature. Finnish. All languages that have only recently acquired their modern written form. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 9:10:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C99B37B7DE for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id SAA19020 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:09:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA56591 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:07:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: BSDCon East Date: 9 Apr 2000 16:07:53 +0200 Message-ID: <8cq2rp$1n81$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EE4C97.B9B83C7A@asme.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > I would like to introduce you all to a language where there is NO > > difference between spelling and pronunciation: Italian. > > I am not sure this is true: the "gn" in the word "gnomo" is pronounced > like the "ñ" in Spanish. But that's strictly regular. Yes, Italian uses a variety of digraphs. Remember the Roman alphabet was only really suited to writing classical Latin. For other languages, it's just a hack. > I also understand you (actually we, since in theory I am Italian > also) don't extrictly have a "z" since in Italian this is pronounced > "ts". 's' is [s] in front of vowels and voiceless consonants, [z] in front of voiced consonants. My tiny Italian dictionary also says it's either [s] or [z] between vowels according to no particular rules. I don't know whether this means that it's up to the speaker or whether you just need to know. Apparently the distinction is only phonemic, not phonemic, so there's probably little harm if you get it wrong. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 9:12:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97B337B74E for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:12:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id SAA19425 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:10:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA56888 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:15:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: BSDCon East Date: 9 Apr 2000 16:15:51 +0200 Message-ID: <8cq3an$1nha$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <38EE4C97.B9B83C7A@asme.org> <20000407143054.A9684@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EEA9B9.8BE1D8A0@asme.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Carlo V ha detto che il Francese e per parlare su diplomasia, il > spagnolo e per parlare con Dio e il tedesche e per parlare con gli > animali. :-). This seems to be quoted in many variations. The one I recall from school: French is for speaking at the court, Italian for speaking with women, and German for speaking with your enemies. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 9:13:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C7537B5B2 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:13:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id RAA15396 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:56:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA55686 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:39:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: BSDCon East Date: 9 Apr 2000 15:39:02 +0200 Message-ID: <8cq15m$1mbp$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Even English and German are useful to understanding French... I don't find German all that helpful in this respect, but English is a boon. Half or so of the English vocabulary is of Romance origin, and that works very well the other way, too. Apart from helping with French, it's very useful for Italian too, and probably the other Romance languages as well, although I seem to have more trouble figuring out written Spanish and even more with Portuguese. > Diareses have the same function in French as in English - to quote the > Webster: "a mark {umlaut} placed over a vowel to to [sic] indicate > that the vowel is pronounced in a separate syllable (as in naïve, > Brontë)" Tell that Alex "nobody needs Unicode" Belits, who seems to be under the impression that ASCII is sufficient to write proper English. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 9:13:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092A837B8A8 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id SAA20275 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:12:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA57464 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:38:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: BSDCon East Date: 9 Apr 2000 16:38:54 +0200 Message-ID: <8cq4lu$1o3a$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <3.0.6.32.20000407145548.008cf100@mail85.pair.com> <20000407120154.A9276@sofia.csl.sri.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407145548.008cf100@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407163211.00872d00@mail85.pair.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Italian grammar is fairly simple, I won't comment on Italian grammar, since I know hardly anything about it, but... > though not as simple as English (whose grammar is virtually > non-existent), ... this is a wide-spread belief and--excuse me--pure rubbish. I have _A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language_ by Quirk et al. sitting here, which explains the "non-existent" intricacies of English grammar on nearly 1800 pages. And it's probably not exhaustive. For many linguistically naive people, the simplicity of a language's grammar seems to hinge on the degree of inflection. Having a few noun cases, adjective/noun agreements, and a few verb conjugations does not make for an objectively(!) difficult grammar. English has the same complexity, it's just expressed differently. Once you get beyond the basic level of "me Tarzan, you Jane", English syntax becomes fiendishly difficult. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 9:26:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cs.Technion.AC.IL (csa.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A96137B5B0 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:26:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.cs.technion.ac.il (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by cs.Technion.AC.IL (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA19374; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:27:04 +0200 (IST) Received: from localhost (nadav@localhost) by csd.cs.technion.ac.il (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA02182; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:27:01 +0200 (IST) X-Authentication-Warning: csd.cs.technion.ac.il: nadav owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:27:01 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <8cq29v$1mud$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Marco Molteni wrote: > > > I would like to introduce you all to a language where there is NO > > difference between spelling and pronunciation: Italian. > > Italian is certainly very regular in this respect. > (BTW, why? Hasn't written Italian been largely the same since > Dante's times? A lot of time for irregularities to creep in.) > > > I am wondering if there are other languages with this feature. > > Finnish. > All languages that have only recently acquired their modern written > form. Turkish is another (its current written form is less than a century old). Hebrew is also very regular in its pronounciation, but for the opposite reason: it has been guarded for millenia against changes in pronounciation and writing (though there are two schools in the pronounciation of Hebrew - each with its own regularity). > > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > > > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 10: 6:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3D537C16F for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id TAA05162 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:03:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 33CEB8796; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:44:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:44:26 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000409154425.A85284@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <8cgj1a$313f$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407202917.A1417@sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.9i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 08:26:08PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brad Knowles: > Oh, sorry, let me post the Babelfish version -- we can't possibly > have this discussion in any language other than French: Ugh. Don't do that again please Brad :-) > Est Ah, mais c'à ce que le française de L'Académie est tellement > très bon! Pourquoi lui refuseriez-vous jamais leur d'être de raison? -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 11: 8:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EF737B545 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA85281; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:08:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Brett Taylor Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Apr 2000 20:08:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Taylor's message of "Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:25:49 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Taylor writes: > On 9 Apr 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Brett Taylor writes: > > > If you think they were touchy about "hot dog" you can probably > > > imagine the uproar when physicists started talking about "black > > holes." I'll let you figure out what the French word for that is. > > "trou noir". What's the problem? > As I noted in some other message, I only know French as it pertains to > biking so I don't know if that's the correct word, but apparently French > physicists were annoyed when John Wheeler coined the word "black hole" > because it translated to anus. Bollocks. To me, it sounds like just another one of those the-french- are-so-weird stories the anglosaxon are so fond of telling. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 11:17:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710E037B537 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:17:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA85344; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:17:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cq15m$1mbp$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Apr 2000 20:17:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de's message of "9 Apr 2000 15:39:02 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes: > I don't find German all that helpful in this respect, but English > is a boon. Half or so of the English vocabulary is of Romance > origin, *Roman*, not Romance. The words "romance" and "romantic" (as well as the french word for "novel") all stem from the fact that popular litterature (well, popular if you disregard the 80 or so percent of the population who couldn't read, much less afford a book) was written in the vulgar tongue called Roman rather than in Latin. > > Diareses have the same function in French as in English [...] > Tell that Alex "nobody needs Unicode" Belits, who seems to be under > the impression that ASCII is sufficient to write proper English. Hmph. How's he gonna spell dæmon? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 11:21:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC1DD37B60A for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:21:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r20.bfm.org [216.127.220.116]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:22:12 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000409132007.00904e20@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 13:20:07 -0500 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Fun with new TLD Cc: Nathan Dorfman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <"G. Adam Stanislav"'s message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:09:34 -0500"> <3.0.6.32.20000406160909.0091ae10@mail85.pair.com> <20000406170549.B24832@rtfm.net> <3.0.6.32.20000406160909.0091ae10@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407160934.008fed60@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 14:58 09-04-2000 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >"G. Adam Stanislav" writes: >> Hehe, if my home country allowed its expatriots to register domains, [...] > >ITYM "expatriates". HTH, HAND! Oops! Freudian slip... :) Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 11:33: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8499F37B5E7 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 3699 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2000 18:31:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 9 Apr 2000 18:31:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 1262 invoked by uid 211); 9 Apr 2000 18:31:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:01:50 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings Message-ID: <20000410000149.B1241@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407202917.A1417@sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de on Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 03:22:18PM +0200 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber said on Apr 9, 2000 at 15:22:18: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > By the way, I think one reason for the confusing nature of English > > spellings is that it has imported words from languages all over the > > world, often with little modification in spelling if the original > > script was the same, and it continues to do so. > > First, I think the tendency of English to pick up loans is overstated. > A whole lot of words imported during the colonial period and > referring to foreign plants, animals, and cultures are actually in > pan-European use. English was reshaped by the large influx of > Romance vocabulary after the Norman invasion, but that has been a > historical event for a few centuries now. What I meant was, a word like "chauffeur" or "chandelier" is spelt the same way in English as in French (or say "lasagne" in Italian, and so on), and pronounced in a fairly similar manner, but I don't think that's true of other European languages: imported words change in spelling, or in pronunciation, or both. English also has lots of imported non-European words: I've seen lists, but offhand can only recall Indian examples, eg bungalow, jungle, juggernaut, etc. In these cases, of course, the spelling is reasonably English-sounding since the original words were in a different script. I don't know how common these words are in other European languages. > > But that's also a strength, and it's at least one reason it's > > spoken so widely. > > The global role of English has nothing whatsoever to do with features > inherent in the language itself. Rather, it's a consequence from > the political, economical, and cultural dominance of first the > British Empire in the 19th and later the United States in the 20th > century. That's the main reason, but I think not the only reason. It's difficult to prove the point: but in the 19th and early 20th centuries, I believe France was no less dominant politically than England, and far more dominant culturally. Even now, when I think of Western music, opera, art, sculpture and so on, the names that come to mind are mostly from the European mainland. To some extent this is true even of "classic" literature. > For former British colonies English is also a convenient choice as > a neutral language since it doesn't give an advantage or an emphasis > to any of the resident ethnic groups. I think India is an example > for this. True. But in India's case I think it has survived only because it is useful globally. There is plenty of anti-English feeling, but it is outweighed by the knowledge that it's useful; if the dominant global language had been French, I don't think anyone would have been inclined to continue usage of English. > Well, *somebody* had to coin the English neologism, too. Creating > your own neologism or a calque is as valid an approach as borrowing > a foreign word, and you don't run into problems with phonotactics > and spelling. My point, more or less: compared to French, English is less inhibited about borrowing directly without worrying about spelling and pronunciation problems. I think in some ways that's a good thing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 11:35:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F128037B639 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:35:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r20.bfm.org [216.127.220.116]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:36:04 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000409133400.0093a210@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 13:34:00 -0500 To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <8cq4lu$1o3a$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <3.0.6.32.20000407145548.008cf100@mail85.pair.com> <20000407120154.A9276@sofia.csl.sri.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407145548.008cf100@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407163211.00872d00@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:38 09-04-2000 +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: >> though not as simple as English (whose grammar is virtually >> non-existent), > >... this is a wide-spread belief and--excuse me--pure rubbish. I said virtually. Of course English has grammar. But many of its speakers don't know it. :) How else could someone say "with my brother and I"? Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 11:46:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC87137B639 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r20.bfm.org [216.127.220.116]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:47:01 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000409134456.0089c4d0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 13:44:56 -0500 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cq15m$1mbp$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:17 09-04-2000 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes: >> I don't find German all that helpful in this respect, but English >> is a boon. Half or so of the English vocabulary is of Romance >> origin, > >*Roman*, not Romance. Quote from Merriam-Webster's: >Main Entry: Ro=B7mance >Pronunciation: rO-'man(t)s, r&-; 'rO-" >Function: adjective >Date: 1690 >: of, relating to, or being any of several languages developed from Latin (as Italian, French, and Spanish)=20 Ref: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary Note the capitalization. Used with a lower-case 'r' it means what you described. Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 12:26: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.x-treme.gr (mail2.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D435237B7A0 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat6.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.198]) by mail2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id WAA31716; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:25:18 +0300 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA08210; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:34:42 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:34:42 +0300 (EEST) From: Giorgos Keramidas Message-Id: <200004091834.VAA08210@hades.hell.gr> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, molter@sofia.csl.sri.com Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: Marco Molteni > > I would like to introduce you all to a language where there is NO > difference between spelling and pronunciation: Italian. I am wondering > if there are other languages with this feature. Well, Italian is the one language I know that is "close" to having no difference between spelling and pronunciation. My own native language, Greek, is another one. I believe that this is why so many Italian people can learn Greek easily, and so many Greek people (including myself) find it easy to learn Italian :) Ciao, Giorgos. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 12:31:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sofia.csl.sri.com (sofia.csl.sri.com [130.107.19.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F39337B708 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:31:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@sofia.csl.sri.com) Received: (from molter@localhost) by sofia.csl.sri.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA15864; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:31:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter) From: Marco Molteni Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:31:15 -0700 To: Brett Taylor Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000409123115.A15826@sofia.csl.sri.com> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Taylor , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: ; from brett@peloton.runet.edu on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 03:14:57PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 08 Apr 2000, Brett Taylor wrote: > I'm heading over to Italy in late June for a bike tour for 9-10 days - > anyone know any good software/books to help learn enough so I'm not > totally lost when I get there? I pick up languages pretty quick so I'm > not horribly worried, but much like the little French I know, I'm lost > after people stop talking about bike stuff. :-) Get one of the small books with a title like: "Italian for foreigners", but be careful to find a decent one, otherwise you will speak the language of my grandparents ;-) I would like to give you some "practical tips": Food and drink are among the best in the world :-) When you eat out, try the local specialties, do not ask for only-for-turist food like "spaghetti bolognese" (unless, obviously, you are in Bologna!) or stuff like that. Do yourself a favour and eat a pizza in Italy. Suddenly you will realize that what is called pizza in the US has NOTHING to do with italian pizza :-) You should choose a pizzeria with "forno a legna", which means "wood hoven". Real pizza needs a wood hoven. If you want a cheap meal, choose a restaurant, or better yet, a "trattoria", without the menu in english. This often means that the restaurant is authentic, not for turists. We do not tip, expecially in restaurants. In Italy you tip _only_ when you are positively impressed by the service. Enjoy your staying in our sunny Italy :-) Marco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 12:41:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sofia.csl.sri.com (sofia.csl.sri.com [130.107.19.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A7137B5CA for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@sofia.csl.sri.com) Received: (from molter@localhost) by sofia.csl.sri.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA15878; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:40:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter) From: Marco Molteni Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:40:42 -0700 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000409124042.B15826@sofia.csl.sri.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EE4C97.B9B83C7A@asme.org> <20000407143054.A9684@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EEA9B9.8BE1D8A0@asme.org> <38EEB5FC.493D9D9D@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <38EEB5FC.493D9D9D@asme.org>; from giffunip@asme.org on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 11:30:52PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 07 Apr 2000, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > Scuzzi, l'avevo dimenticato... "scusi, l'avevo dimenticato" you see, Pedro, this is why you think that the italian "z" isn't a real "z", you wrote "scuzzi", as an american would. > l'italiano e la lingua ottima per parlare da amore (secondo Carlo V) l'italiano e\` la lingua migliore per parlare d'amore. Marco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 12:44:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sofia.csl.sri.com (sofia.csl.sri.com [130.107.19.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B0937B7A7 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:44:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@sofia.csl.sri.com) Received: (from molter@localhost) by sofia.csl.sri.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA15885; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter) From: Marco Molteni Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:44:08 -0700 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, giffunip@asme.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000409124408.C15826@sofia.csl.sri.com> Mail-Followup-To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, giffunip@asme.org References: <8cgj1a$313f$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EE4C97.B9B83C7A@asme.org> <20000407143054.A9684@sofia.csl.sri.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407225406.0087de50@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000407225406.0087de50@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:54:06PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 07 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 14:30 07-04-2000 -0700, Marco Molteni wrote: > >I am not sure I understood. The "z" is pronounced more or less like US > >americans pronounce it in the word "pizza" > > Yes, you do, in "pizza" anyway. But in "mezzo" it's a different sound. > Seems like the Serbians have you beat in being 100% phonetic. :) hu, no. In "pizza" and "mezzo" the "z" sounds exactly the same, probably I choose a bad example. Marco PS we may continue this interesting discussion around a real pizza somewhere :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 12:45:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E91237B7D7 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:45:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03054; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:44:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:44:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On 9 Apr 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Brett Taylor writes: > > apparently French physicists were annoyed when John Wheeler coined > > the word "black hole" because it translated to anus. > Bollocks. To me, it sounds like just another one of those the-french- > are-so-weird stories the anglosaxon are so fond of telling. Believe it or not as you will - since I've heard the story directly from Wheeler, Thorne and my thesis advisor (who did his PhD w/ Wheeler and studied under Thorne at CalTech) I'll take their word for it. Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 13: 5: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from carbon.btinternet.com (carbon.btinternet.com [194.73.73.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56BCD37B53A for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.60.19] (helo=parish.my.domain) by carbon.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12eNww-000737-00; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:04:50 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA00959; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:55:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:55:49 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Will Andrews Cc: Steve Price , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Chat charter Was: Re: FreeBSD jobs in Nashville, TN (fwd) Message-ID: <20000409205549.B234@parish> References: <20000408231440.A27888@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000408231440.A27888@argon.blackdawn.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 11:14:40PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 11:14:40PM -0400, Will Andrews wrote: > On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 05:29:04PM -0500, Steve Price wrote: > > Pardon the interruption. I hope the charter of this list is > > loose enough that posting this here as well won't get me flamed > > too bad. :) Just in case, please direct *all* replies (including > > flames) to me and not the list. > > As far as I know, the freebsd-chat charter is simply "Anything can be > posted to this mailing list, and it need not even be remotely related to > FreeBSD." This certainly has proven true, given that !$%@ stupid thread > about guns and stuff like that. :-) > You may well think that the guns thread was !$%@ stupid, and I can imagine many (most?) Americans are fed up discussing gun law, however since freebsd-chat is frequented (mainly) by intelligent, educated people it is an ideal place, IMHO, for such discussions as the quality of the information/opinions posted is equally high (I found the thread on guns very enlightening and gained an interesting insight into American attitudes towards firearms). Several people have suggested that that thread was too OT, even for -chat. If that is the consensus of opinion why not created another list (freebsd-social?) where FreeBSD (or indeed computer) related topics are the exception rather than the rule? That way those who wish to discuss guns, fine wines, ancient Tibetan proverbs, or the mating ritual of the Budweiser frogs can do so without stepping on anyone else's toes. Just my two pen'orth > -- > Will Andrews > GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- > ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ > G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 13: 5:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from carbon.btinternet.com (carbon.btinternet.com [194.73.73.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A356637B6E9 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.60.19] (helo=parish.my.domain) by carbon.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12eNws-000737-00; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:04:46 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00981; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:00:50 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:00:50 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Taylor , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000409210050.C234@parish> References: <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000409140225.A2643@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000409140225.A2643@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:02:26PM +0530 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:02:26PM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > French are known to be touchy about imports of American words, but > > > concepts like "hot dog" and "internet" didn't exist in France earlier, > > > and to me it makes little sense to invent new words for these when > > > perfectly good words for these are already in use everywhere else.... > > > > If you think they were touchy about "hot dog" you can probably imagine the > > uproar when physicists started talking about "black holes." I'll let you > > figure out what the French word for that is. :-) > > Interesting. > What about top and bottom quarks, bra and ket vectors, etc? > My impression was that the physicists themselves don't care, but > maybe L'Academie does. > > How about standard Unix stuff like touch, finger, sleep, and so on? Ah, you mean how does a UNIX guru have sex? A: unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount;fsck;more;yes;umount;sleep > Is there a French version of Unix? > L'Unix? > Rahul. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 13:14:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tantalum.btinternet.com (tantalum.btinternet.com [194.73.73.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3810137B560 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.60.19] (helo=parish.my.domain) by tantalum.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12eNxv-0002V4-00; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:05:52 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01146; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:14:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:14:09 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000409211409.D234@parish> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cq15m$1mbp$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 08:17:48PM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 08:17:48PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes: > > I don't find German all that helpful in this respect, but English > > is a boon. Half or so of the English vocabulary is of Romance > > origin, > > *Roman*, not Romance. > > The words "romance" and "romantic" (as well as the french word for > "novel") all stem from the fact that popular litterature (well, > popular if you disregard the 80 or so percent of the population who > couldn't read, much less afford a book) was written in the vulgar > tongue called Roman rather than in Latin. > > > > Diareses have the same function in French as in English [...] > > Tell that Alex "nobody needs Unicode" Belits, who seems to be under > > the impression that ASCII is sufficient to write proper English. > > Hmph. > > How's he gonna spell dæmon? > Probably "demon". The use of ae-dipthong (sp?) in English is declining due largely, I believe, to American influence; encyclopedia, anesthetic etc. Curiously ispell(1) (built with ``make british'') shows the former to be correct, but the latter to be mispelled. > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 13:29:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E32437B63E for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12021; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:28:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000409142508.04174d90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 14:28:03 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New ACM special interest groups (fwd) Cc: mbp@linuxcare.com, schoen@loyalty.org In-Reply-To: <20000409162230.D12381@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:52 AM 4/9/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: >----- Forwarded message from Martin Pool ----- > > > Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:18:55 +1000 (EST) > > > > New ACM special interest groups > > ------------------------------- > > > > On April 1, the ACM announced the creation of a new set of SIGs for > > previously unrepresented or underserved interests in computing.... You forgot the most important one: SIGMUND: special interest group for people who appear to be in need of psychiatric help due to their obsession with the creation of silly SIGs. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 13:33:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF2837B6E2 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:32:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.137.38]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA1156; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:31:52 -0400 Message-ID: <38F0E92F.D19F4FCF@asme.org> Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:33:51 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marco Molteni Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EE4C97.B9B83C7A@asme.org> <20000407143054.A9684@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EEA9B9.8BE1D8A0@asme.org> <38EEB5FC.493D9D9D@asme.org> <20000409124042.B15826@sofia.csl.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marco Molteni wrote: > ... > > "scusi, l'avevo dimenticato" > > you see, Pedro, this is why you think that the italian "z" isn't a > real "z", you wrote "scuzzi", as an american would. > Yeah sure :-). Thanks for the corrections, I really should have finished studying Italian, however there not virtually no one to speak to here.. ciao, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 13:37:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF35F37B6E2 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:37:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh1.bfm.org [216.127.220.194]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:38:16 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000409153611.008aa9e0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:36:11 -0500 To: Marco Molteni From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, giffunip@asme.org In-Reply-To: <20000409124408.C15826@sofia.csl.sri.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000407225406.0087de50@mail85.pair.com> <8cgj1a$313f$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EE4C97.B9B83C7A@asme.org> <20000407143054.A9684@sofia.csl.sri.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407225406.0087de50@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:44 09-04-2000 -0700, Marco Molteni wrote: >hu, no. In "pizza" and "mezzo" the "z" sounds exactly the same, Maybe to you. :) Non-native speakers often find clear differences in things that sound the same to native speakers. >PS we may continue this interesting discussion around a real pizza somewhere :-) Yes! I miss real pizza here in America. :) Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 14:37:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nscache2.x-treme.gr (mail1.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2ACE37B673 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:37:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat30.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.222]) by nscache2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id AAA07693; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:36:11 +0300 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11744; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:06:34 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:06:34 +0300 (EEST) From: Giorgos Keramidas Message-Id: <200004092106.AAA11744@hades.hell.gr> To: brett@peloton.runet.edu, rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000409140225.A2643@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: Rahul Siddharthan > > How about standard Unix stuff like touch, finger, sleep, and so on? > Is there a French version of Unix? touche *sigh* A bit scary, though. The very thought of translating every single word in a full Unix distribution can drive a lot of the -doc people crazy, I think :) Hehe, I hope this thing will not happen any time soon now. No offense for the French people on this list, I'd hate it to start a war here. However, it brings me the creeps to think of a sed/awk script in french editions of these tools. Not to speak about perl5 code... - Giorgos Keramidas. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 14:38: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nscache2.x-treme.gr (mail1.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1927137B63E for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat30.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.222]) by nscache2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with ESMTP id AAA07699; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:36:19 +0300 Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11862; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:18:22 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:18:22 +0300 (EEST) From: Giorgos Keramidas Message-Id: <200004092118.AAA11862@hades.hell.gr> To: brett@peloton.runet.edu, des@flood.ping.uio.no Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav > > Brett Taylor writes: > > > > As I noted in some other message, I only know French as it pertains to > > biking so I don't know if that's the correct word, but apparently French > > physicists were annoyed when John Wheeler coined the word "black hole" > > because it translated to anus. > > Bollocks. To me, it sounds like just another one of those the-french- > are-so-weird stories the anglosaxon are so fond of telling. I've only heard the story from English speaking people, so it seems that you have more right than wrong there, -DES. - Giorgos Keramidas. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 15: 4:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C6E37B78D; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA64559; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:04:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: David Scheidt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: netscape 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Apr 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Why bother, when you can just as well grab the latest Mozilla sources > and build a native version? Because netscape isn't quite mozilla, and people may want to provide quality feedback for the version which will become Netscape 6.0? Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 16:20:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B386F37B7F3 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:20:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA02707 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:19:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:19:41 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: TrustedBSD ? Message-ID: <20000410001941.A2643@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.trustedbsd.org/ ? N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 16:22:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAAD837B78B for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 12eQQV-000BZv-00; Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:43:31 +0100 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.12 #7) id 12eQQU-0004IN-00; Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:43:30 +0100 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:43:30 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000409234330.D60798@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <20000409140225.A2643@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200004092106.AAA11744@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200004092106.AAA11744@hades.hell.gr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > Hehe, I hope this thing will not happen any time soon now. No offense > for the French people on this list, I'd hate it to start a war here. > However, it brings me the creeps to think of a sed/awk script in french > editions of these tools. Not to speak about perl5 code... C would be alright though, code like this would look pretty much the same in any language: (_O&2&&**v?*(*v)++:!c||_O&4?0:(!(_O&1)&& \ (--c,++v),_O=4,c&&**v=='-'&&v[0][1]?*++*v=='-'\ &&!v[0][1]?(--c,++v,0):(_O=2,*(*v)++):0)) [src/usr.bin/chat/chat.c for those who care] -- Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 16:57:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033E137BA62 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA17619; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:26:43 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:26:43 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: FreeBSD Chat , mbp@linuxcare.com, schoen@loyalty.org Subject: Re: New ACM special interest groups (fwd) Message-ID: <20000410092642.C12935@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000409162230.D12381@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000409142508.04174d90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000409142508.04174d90@localhost> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 9 April 2000 at 14:28:03 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:52 AM 4/9/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >> ----- Forwarded message from Martin Pool ----- >> >>> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:18:55 +1000 (EST) >>> >>> New ACM special interest groups >>> ------------------------------- >>> >>> On April 1, the ACM announced the creation of a new set of SIGs for >>> previously unrepresented or underserved interests in computing.... > > You forgot the most important one: > > SIGMUND: special interest group for people who appear to be in need > of psychiatric help due to their obsession with the creation of > silly SIGs. $ grep SIGMUND /sys/sys/signal.h $ Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 17:16:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 80F3E37B776 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 38F11BBA-0137, Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:09:30 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not reply to this address) X-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:09:30 +0100 Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <38F11BBA.0137@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:09:30 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to DES: > The use of ae-dipthong (sp?) in English is declining > due largely, I believe, to American influence; encyclopedia, > anesthetic etc. Curiously ispell(1) (built with ``make british'') > shows the former to be correct, but the latter to be mispelled. I've *never* seen anaesthetic spelled anesthetic in English; in the U.S. of A., certainly... Maybe you've been confused by the dipthong's hardly ever being written in the old way, with the a and e joined into one symbol. Mind you, my dictionary (Chambers) does allow eon and ether as alternates to aeon and aether :) -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 17:31:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20ED37B620; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:31:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA17899; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:01:03 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:01:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Brian Dean , Jonathan Lemon , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_output.c Message-ID: <20000410100103.G12935@freebie.lemis.com> References: <200004020444.XAA30761@dean.pc.sas.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [following up to -chat] On Friday, 7 April 2000 at 17:05:04 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Brian Dean writes: >> Greg Lehey wrote: >>> On Saturday, 1 April 2000 at 10:51:06 -0800, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >>>> jlemon 2000/04/01 10:51:05 PST >>>> Reviewed by: bsd (Brian Dean, gotta love that login name) >>> Should I change mine to gpl? >> The only downside is my initials are trademarked :( > > What are you complaining about? I can't even leave the country without > applying for an export license! I didn't know you had problems leaving the country. I thought that you were concerned about entering the USA because they wouldn't let you out again. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 17:41:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF7437B5F6 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id CAA09285 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:41:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA80296 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:00:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Spellings Date: 10 Apr 2000 02:00:12 +0200 Message-ID: <8cr5ic$2ed0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000410000149.B1241@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > What I meant was, a word like "chauffeur" or "chandelier" is spelt the > same way in English as in French (or say "lasagne" in Italian, and so > on), This is no different from German, French, Dutch, etc. Even Italian has "whisky", although the letter "w" doesn't appear at all in native words. Those that use a different script (Greek, Cyrillic) obviously need to come up with a localized spelling immediately. > and pronounced in a fairly similar manner, The pronunciation is *approximated* using the phonetic inventory of the destination language. The English version of "chauffeur" is badly distorted from the French original. This can make for interesting observations, e.g. French and German use different replacements for the English vowel in "cut", although the vowel chosen in the respectively other language would be available as well. > but I don't think that's true of other European languages: imported > words change in spelling, or in pronunciation, or both. Eventually, when a loan word has become solidly incorporated into the language, its spelling is regularized. Examples from German: French "bureau" -> "Büro", French "café" -> "Kaffee" English "cakes" -> "Keks", English "strike" -> "Streik". Some languages go more aggressively about this, some are more conservative. > English also has lots of imported non-European words: I've seen lists, > but offhand can only recall Indian examples, eg bungalow, jungle, > juggernaut, etc. In these cases, of course, the spelling is reasonably > English-sounding since the original words were in a different script. > I don't know how common these words are in other European languages. German French Swedish bungalow: Bungalow bungalow bungalow jungle: Dschungel jungle djungel Those were probably borrowed via English. "Juggernaut" seems to be English only. [reasons for language dominance] > but in the 19th and early 20th centuries, I believe France was > no less dominant politically than England, and far more dominant > culturally. And French was just in a position similar to that of English today. In the 17th/18th century, the court of the French kings was the model for the European high aristocracy who spoke French in imitation, and educated people at the time peppered their speech with gratuitous French loanwords. It isn't as obvious in English due to its older ties with French, but the European languages experienced in influx of French loan words during those times. French's dominant role continued until around the turn of the century. French was the language used by diplomats. Note that even today the postal service still uses French phrases in international contexts (e.g. airmail stickers everywhere saying "par avion" along with the same in the local language). International organizations that are old enough carry French names. Think of the international and European soccer associations: FIFA, UEFA. The extension of English to other countries was a direct result of colonization. Just the same for French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Dutch. In ancient times, Greek was spread around the Mediterranean by merchants and settlers. Latin became dominant due to the sheer power of the Roman Empire. Low German was a lingua franca around the Baltic Sea (and influenced the Scandinavian languages as much as French did English) on the heels of the rich Hanseatic merchants. Let me drive this point home: There are many historical examples and associated excellent reasons why a language can become preferred for international communications or as a prestige language. None of these reasons are related to the language itself. If the Kalahari bushmen started to become economically, politically, and/or culturally dominant in the world for some weird reason, we'd all happily learn to meaningfully click our tongues in dozens of different ways. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 20: 9: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA5837B5E1 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:08:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id FAA00463 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:08:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id CA87B8796; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:28:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:28:23 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000410012823.A96000@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000409140225.A2643@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200004092106.AAA11744@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i In-Reply-To: <200004092106.AAA11744@hades.hell.gr>; from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 12:06:34AM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Giorgos Keramidas: > Hehe, I hope this thing will not happen any time soon now. No offense > for the French people on this list, I'd hate it to start a war here. > However, it brings me the creeps to think of a sed/awk script in french > editions of these tools. Not to speak about perl5 code... To be honest, I positively *hate* i18n versions of UNIX. My worst experience was with AIX... It was one of the reasons I bought my Palm Pilot in the US ;-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 21:47:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 96CF737B684 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:47:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 363 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2000 04:47:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 10 Apr 2000 04:47:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 341 invoked by uid 211); 10 Apr 2000 04:47:01 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:17:01 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Taylor Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000410101700.B317@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Taylor , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brett@peloton.runet.edu on Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 03:44:38PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > apparently French physicists were annoyed when John Wheeler coined > > > the word "black hole" because it translated to anus. > > > Bollocks. To me, it sounds like just another one of those the-french- > > are-so-weird stories the anglosaxon are so fond of telling. > > Believe it or not as you will - since I've heard the story directly from > Wheeler, Thorne and my thesis advisor (who did his PhD w/ Wheeler and > studied under Thorne at CalTech) I'll take their word for it. I just asked a French teacher of my acquaintance. She said it's true, it can be interpreted in that way. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 9 22: 6:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C5037B663; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:06:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.137.220]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5511; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:05:42 -0400 Message-ID: <38F161A5.7E8AF9BE@asme.org> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:07:49 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: TrustedBSD ? References: <20000410001941.A2643@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yup, I received the announcement (it was sent to freebsd-arch but was almost killed by my anti-spam filter). The Extended Atributes will be particularly cool. Zipfiles for OS/2 sometimes include EA information (icons and stuff). I wonder why this hasn't appeared in daily.daemonnews.org :-) cheers, Pedro. Nik Clayton wrote: > > http://www.trustedbsd.org/ ? > > N > -- > Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. > Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, > hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. > Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. > -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 1: 9:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB31737B5A7 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:09:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA87339; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:08:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Mark Ovens Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cq15m$1mbp$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000409211409.D234@parish> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Apr 2000 10:08:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:14:09 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 08:17:48PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > How's he gonna spell dæmon? > Probably "demon". The use of ae-dipthong (sp?) Diphthong. One of the weirder words of the english language. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 1:10:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A280B37B578; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:10:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA87344; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:09:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brian Dean , Jonathan Lemon , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_output.c References: <200004020444.XAA30761@dean.pc.sas.com> <20000410100103.G12935@freebie.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Apr 2000 10:09:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:01:03 +0930" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Friday, 7 April 2000 at 17:05:04 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > What are you complaining about? I can't even leave the country without > > applying for an export license! > I didn't know you had problems leaving the country. I thought that > you were concerned about entering the USA because they wouldn't let > you out again. There is such a thing as over-explaining a joke, Greg. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 2: 9:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 62ED737B5BE for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 22745 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2000 09:09:43 -0000 Received: from du41.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.41) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2000 09:09:43 -0000 Message-ID: <38F19A2E.E2CDF690@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:09:02 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] References: <200004092118.AAA11862@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > I've only heard the story from English speaking people, so it seems > that you have more right than wrong there, -DES. Or maybe the French are only rude to anglophones. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 2:11:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78D437B613 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA87551; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:10:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Taylor , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] References: <20000410101700.B317@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Apr 2000 11:10:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:17:01 +0530" Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > > > apparently French physicists were annoyed when John Wheeler coined > > > > the word "black hole" because it translated to anus. > > > Bollocks. To me, it sounds like just another one of those the-french- > > > are-so-weird stories the anglosaxon are so fond of telling. > > Believe it or not as you will - since I've heard the story directly from > > Wheeler, Thorne and my thesis advisor (who did his PhD w/ Wheeler and > > studied under Thorne at CalTech) I'll take their word for it. > I just asked a French teacher of my acquaintance. She said it's true, > it can be interpreted in that way. No more than the english term "black hole" can be interpreted as meaning "anus". The usual vulgar term for "asshole" in French is "trou de balle" ("bullet hole"). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 2:16:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6291C37B74E for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA87606; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:15:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407202917.A1417@sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000410000149.B1241@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Apr 2000 11:15:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:01:50 +0530" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > What I meant was, a word like "chauffeur" or "chandelier" is spelt the > same way in English as in French (or say "lasagne" in Italian, and so > on), and pronounced in a fairly similar manner, but I don't think > that's true of other European languages: imported words change in > spelling, or in pronunciation, or both. Germans and Danes also spell "chauffeur" as "chauffeur". DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 2:20:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4174A37B786 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 02:20:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA87625; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:20:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000410000149.B1241@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cr5ic$2ed0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Apr 2000 11:20:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de's message of "10 Apr 2000 02:00:12 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes: > English "strike" -> "Streik". I very much doubt that "Streik" is a loan word. I'd rather say "strike" and "Streik" evolved from the same germanic word. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 3:30:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE63337B879 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 03:30:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id MAA17360; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:30:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from naddy@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA99294; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:18:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:18:27 +0200 From: Christian Weisgerber To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings Message-ID: <20000410121827.A96662@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000410000149.B1241@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cr5ic$2ed0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 11:20:35AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav: > > English "strike" -> "Streik". > > I very much doubt that "Streik" is a loan word. I'd rather say > "strike" and "Streik" evolved from the same germanic word. You would have to explain - why "Streik, streiken" refer *only* to going on strike. This is a thoroughly 19th century concept. There should at least be residuals of an older meaning. - how the word escaped the High German sound shift, -k- -> -ch-. You could posit a Low German connection, I guess. I'm not sure whether this conflicts with the diphthongization. - in particular why there are apparently 19th century documents that demonstrate an original spelling "Strike" that shifted to "Streik". I don't doubt the Duden etymological dictionary's claim that the word is a 19th century loan. The German cognate of "to strike" is "streichen". -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 3:33:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96DF37B93C for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 03:33:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA2618195 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:33:28 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38F11BBA.0137@funbox.demon.co.uk> References: <38F11BBA.0137@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:29:24 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSDCon East Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:09 AM +0100 2000/4/10, do not reply to this address wrote: > I've *never* seen anaesthetic spelled anesthetic in English; in the > U.S. of A., certainly... It definitely happens in the US. Fortunately the UK would appear to be a bastion of proper usage with regards to certain pairs of doubled vowels. Which one is correct presumably depends on whether you consider the Oxford English Dictionary or Merriam-Webster to be definitive. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 3:34: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3EDC37B595 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 03:34:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC2F180E9; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:33:57 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:31:37 +0200 To: Brett Taylor , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:25 AM -0400 2000/4/9, Brett Taylor wrote: > As I noted in some other message, I only know French as it pertains to > biking so I don't know if that's the correct word, but apparently French > physicists were annoyed when John Wheeler coined the word "black hole" > because it translated to anus. Damn. It seems that Babelfish has been corrected with regards to this usage. I was hoping to have some more entertaining (than usual) translations of web pages and papers relating to physics. Sigh.... -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 3:34: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015A737B7A7 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 03:34:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F94C1819D; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:33:54 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000409124408.C15826@sofia.csl.sri.com> References: <8cgj1a$313f$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EE4C97.B9B83C7A@asme.org> <20000407143054.A9684@sofia.csl.sri.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407225406.0087de50@mail85.pair.com> <20000409124408.C15826@sofia.csl.sri.com> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:27:45 +0200 To: Marco Molteni , "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, giffunip@asme.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:44 PM -0700 2000/4/9, Marco Molteni wrote: >=20 hu, no. In "pizza" and "mezzo" the "z" sounds exactly the same, >=20 probably I choose a bad example. I am familiar with American-style pizza (both Chicago and New=20 York types ;-), and the musical term "mezzo" as applied to "piano"=20 and "fort=E9" to indicate the volume level at which a particular=20 section should be played. To my ear, these two uses of the doubled "z" sound exactly the same. I am also familiar with the meteorological term "meso" as in=20 "mesocyclone", and of course this does have a rather different sound. -- =20 These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 3:34:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748F437B92F for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 03:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id A115F181A0; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:33:29 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000409154425.A85284@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <8cgj1a$313f$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407202917.A1417@sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000409154425.A85284@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:52:48 +0200 To: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:44 PM +0200 2000/4/9, Ollivier Robert wrote: >=20 Ugh. Don't do that again please Brad :-) Sorry, I occasionally have run-ins with one of the very small=20 percentage of the people in this company that are rather officious=20 and smarmy, and I have a knee-jerk reaction that I'm sure is unfair=20 to the vast majority. Or, were you complaining about the way the accented characters=20 got mungled [0] by the time they arrived at your system? I do find it funny that on the web pages of L'Acad=E9mie fran=E7aise=20 at , when you click on buttons=20 (such as the one labeled "Moteur de recherche"), it uses Javascript=20 to pull up URLs such as=20 "javascript:Pop2('./search/recherche.html','actu', 200, 200);". One wonders why they would use Javascript at all for this=20 function (it does lock out the people who don't have=20 Javascript-capable browers, most likely including most of the=20 visually-impaired)? However, if they did have to use Javascript, one also wonders why=20 the directory is named "./search" and not "./recherche"? In fact,=20 why have a directory at all, if you're then going to reference the=20 URL "recherche.html" within that directory? What about "index.html" -- have they changed the default for=20 Apache to be "incr=E9ment.html" instead (or whatever the correct french=20 word would be)? If they're going to be famously anal about protecting the=20 language from all possible encroachment from foreign languages, it=20 seems that they should apply these methods to their own website. In fact, it seems to me that they really should go all-out and=20 change the site over to a completely translated XML format, and not=20 use a single english word of HTML. [0] I define "mungled" to be a value with a proven minimum of munged=20 + mangled, a typical value of munged * mangled, and a maximum=20 theoretical upper bound of munged ^ mangled. To this degree, it is=20 similar to SNEF -- Situation Normal, Everything FUBAR. -- =20 These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 4:24:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1525837B8BE for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 04:24:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r18.bfm.org [216.127.220.114]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:24:39 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000410062218.008786c0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:22:18 -0500 To: Brad Knowles , Marco Molteni From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, giffunip@asme.org In-Reply-To: References: <20000409124408.C15826@sofia.csl.sri.com> <8cgj1a$313f$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> <38EE4C97.B9B83C7A@asme.org> <20000407143054.A9684@sofia.csl.sri.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407225406.0087de50@mail85.pair.com> <20000409124408.C15826@sofia.csl.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:27 10-04-2000 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > I am familiar with American-style pizza (both Chicago and New=20 >York types ;-), and the musical term "mezzo" as applied to "piano"=20 >and "fort=E9" to indicate the volume level at which a particular=20 >section should be played. > > To my ear, these two uses of the doubled "z" sound exactly the same. Well, in Italy and in America not only is pizza not the same thing, the word is also pronounced differently. At any rate, the difference between the zz is that in mezzo it is voiced, in pizza it is not. In other words, pizza is pronounced pits-tsa and mezzo medz-dzo (using English transliteration for Italian pronunciation, not for English pronunciation). By the way, I like the American pizza, too. :) Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 5:13:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9EC37B8BE for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:13:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@jurai.net) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA76330; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:13:41 -0400 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: David Kelly Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Legal Comprehension (was: Re: ksh ?) Message-ID: <20000410081341.A76278@sasami.jurai.net> References: <200004080358.WAA18525@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200004080358.WAA18525@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:58:02PM -0500 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, David Kelly, were spotted writing this on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:58:02PM -0500: > > If I was Dictator Of The World I'd leave the President and Congress to > do the dirty work but the first Order I'd impose would be, "You can > pass no new law unless the President can score 70% on an exam based on > that law." The simple idea being if a professional lawmaker doesn't > understand 70% of the new law then there is no hope of a citizen ever > understanding well enough to comply. But is the President a lawmaker? I thought he was a professional law breaker^H^H^H^H^H^H^Henforcer and, err, vetoer... Maybe you should require the Congress to take the exam and the law would only pass if >=70% members pass the exam... -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 5:18: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8385037B556 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17643; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:17:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000410061530.041b7a60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:17:45 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New ACM special interest groups (fwd) Cc: FreeBSD Chat , mbp@linuxcare.com, schoen@loyalty.org In-Reply-To: <20000410092642.C12935@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000409142508.04174d90@localhost> <20000409162230.D12381@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000409142508.04174d90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:56 PM 4/9/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > > You forgot the most important one: > > > > SIGMUND: special interest group for people who appear to be in need > > of psychiatric help due to their obsession with the creation of > > silly SIGs. > >$ grep SIGMUND /sys/sys/signal.h >$ Still grepping around for your identity, I see. How long have you had this problem? ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 5:20:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2FD337B968 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17675; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:20:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000410061815.041b86a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:20:13 -0600 To: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] In-Reply-To: <20000410012823.A96000@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <200004092106.AAA11744@hades.hell.gr> <20000409140225.A2643@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200004092106.AAA11744@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:28 PM 4/9/2000 , Ollivier Robert wrote: >To be honest, I positively *hate* i18n versions of UNIX. My worst experience >was with AIX... It was one of the reasons I bought my Palm Pilot in the US ;-) As I've said before, IBM missed a great opportunity by not designing its own windowing system for AIX. They could have called it "Panes." Then, IBM could give you AIX and Panes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 5:23:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC3237B99A for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17695; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:21:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000410062050.0418d660@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:21:45 -0600 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Spellings Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407202917.A1417@sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000410000149.B1241@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:15 AM 4/10/2000 , Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Germans and Danes also spell "chauffeur" as "chauffeur". The Germans also call French fried potatoes "Pommes Frites" ("fried potatoes" in French). --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 5:50:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBCC37B968 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:50:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29091; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:31:44 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA73273; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:51:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:51:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Warner Losh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How hard would it be... In-Reply-To: <200004100128.TAA15168@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes, this is for a well-known, cheap internet device, which shall > remain nameless. I've already OPENed mine up. a real lookER. I ordered mine 3/17/00; it's now 4/10/00 and I haven't had my call from Circuit City. I'm thinking about cancelling the order... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 6:51:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DFEB37B773 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 611 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2000 12:04:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.125) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 10 Apr 2000 12:04:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 504 invoked by uid 211); 10 Apr 2000 12:04:19 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:34:19 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Brett Taylor , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000410173419.B493@theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Brett Taylor , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000410101700.B317@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 11:10:55AM +0200 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i586 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I just asked a French teacher of my acquaintance. She said it's true, > > it can be interpreted in that way. > > No more than the english term "black hole" can be interpreted as > meaning "anus". Meaning, I presume, "not at all." Well, she isn't a native speaker, but nor, I think, are you. I don't have an opinion on whether this is true, but generally I find a statement from a non-native speaker that "there exists such a colloquialism" more believable than a statement that "there does not exist such a colloquialism." I mean the speaker may not have heard of it; but if he/she has heard of it, it can't be totally uncommon. For example, I believe my English (grammar and vocabulary) is around as good as that of most native speakers, but there must be dozens of informal phrases in England/America/Australia that I'd be unfamiliar with. Many English speakers in other parts of the world may not know what "nuts" actually refers to, colloquially, in the US, though they may have heard the expression. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 7:25: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E8F37B7C1 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:22:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9CEDADE; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:22:39 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000410062050.0418d660@localhost> References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407202917.A1417@sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000410000149.B1241@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.2.2.20000410062050.0418d660@localhost> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:58:09 +0200 To: Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Spellings Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:21 AM -0600 2000/4/10, Brett Glass wrote: >>Germans and Danes also spell "chauffeur" as "chauffeur". > > The Germans also call French fried potatoes "Pommes Frites" > ("fried potatoes" in French). They're also called that over here in Belgium, where they were invented. ;-) And you know how sensitive Belgians can be when they are confused with the French. ;-) ;-) Maybe this explains why the Germans decided to adopt that term? -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 10: 7:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sofia.csl.sri.com (sofia.csl.sri.com [130.107.19.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F54F37BBAA for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@sofia.csl.sri.com) Received: (from molter@localhost) by sofia.csl.sri.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17443 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:08:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter) From: Marco Molteni Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:08:00 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000410100800.C17389@sofia.csl.sri.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407102159.B8417@sofia.csl.sri.com> <8cq29v$1mud$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <8cq29v$1mud$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de on Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 03:58:23PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 09 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Marco Molteni wrote: > > > I would like to introduce you all to a language where there is NO > > difference between spelling and pronunciation: Italian. > > Italian is certainly very regular in this respect. > (BTW, why? Hasn't written Italian been largely the same since > Dante's times? A lot of time for irregularities to creep in.) Try to read to an italian La Divina Commedia and ask him if he uses the same words :-) Seriously, the italian lexicon has changed a lot (or, probably, has simplified the spelling), but the one-to-one mapping between spelling and pronunciation is always the same. Marco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 11:26:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DA1137B6A7 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:25:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1425 invoked by uid 211); 10 Apr 2000 18:25:36 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:55:36 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Brett Taylor , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000410235535.B1339@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000410101700.B317@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 11:10:55AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Apr 10, 2000 at 11:10:55: > > > > > apparently French physicists were annoyed when John Wheeler coined > > > > > the word "black hole" because it translated to anus. > > I just asked a French teacher of my acquaintance. She said it's true, > > it can be interpreted in that way. > > No more than the english term "black hole" can be interpreted as > meaning "anus". Looks like DES is right. I described this thread to a Paris-based French physicist and got the following reply. Regarding "black holes": I agree basically w/the norwegian point of view. It doesnt obviuosly mean anything dirty in French except if you really stretch things, and in any case its unclear what you would make it sound like. So I dont know what the story is based on. I'll ask around my (French) astrophysics friends ! -Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 15:52:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70B437B603; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:50:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA38001; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:46:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:46:09 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TrustedBSD ? Message-ID: <20000410154609.A37721@azazel.zer0.org> References: <20000410001941.A2643@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <38F161A5.7E8AF9BE@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38F161A5.7E8AF9BE@asme.org>; from giffunip@asme.org on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 12:07:49AM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-04-10 00:07 -0500, "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > Yup, I received the announcement (it was sent to freebsd-arch but was > almost killed by my anti-spam filter). > > I wonder why this hasn't appeared in daily.daemonnews.org :-) http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=833 It's been there since 4/9. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Bureaucrats cut red tape--lengthwise. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 17:44:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A578B37B69F for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA26465; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:14:34 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:14:34 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: FreeBSD Chat , mbp@linuxcare.com, schoen@loyalty.org Subject: Re: New ACM special interest groups (fwd) Message-ID: <20000411101434.B26373@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000409142508.04174d90@localhost> <20000409162230.D12381@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000409142508.04174d90@localhost> <20000410092642.C12935@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000410061530.041b7a60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000410061530.041b7a60@localhost> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 10 April 2000 at 6:17:45 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:56 PM 4/9/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> You forgot the most important one: >>> >>> SIGMUND: special interest group for people who appear to be in need >>> of psychiatric help due to their obsession with the creation of >>> silly SIGs. >> >> $ grep SIGMUND /sys/sys/signal.h >> $ > > Still grepping around for your identity, I see. No, I don't think you see. You appear to have missed the point completely, and I was hoping that the sequence above would explain it. > How long have you had this problem? ;-) Since Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:26:13 +1030. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 17:48:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6272237B8C2 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:48:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26287; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:48:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000410184806.041ca8b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:48:36 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New ACM special interest groups (fwd) Cc: FreeBSD Chat , mbp@linuxcare.com, schoen@loyalty.org In-Reply-To: <20000411101434.B26373@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000410061530.041b7a60@localhost> <4.2.2.20000409142508.04174d90@localhost> <20000409162230.D12381@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000409142508.04174d90@localhost> <20000410092642.C12935@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000410061530.041b7a60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:44 PM 4/10/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: >On Monday, 10 April 2000 at 6:17:45 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 05:56 PM 4/9/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >>> You forgot the most important one: > >>> > >>> SIGMUND: special interest group for people who appear to be in need > >>> of psychiatric help due to their obsession with the creation of > >>> silly SIGs. > >> > >> $ grep SIGMUND /sys/sys/signal.h > >> $ > > > > Still grepping around for your identity, I see. > >No, I don't think you see. You appear to have missed the point >completely, and I was hoping that the sequence above would explain it. Not true. I caught your signal; sorry if you do not like the way I handled it. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 18:14: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC01F37B69F for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:14:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07086; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:54:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04486; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:13:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:13:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat , mbp@linuxcare.com, schoen@loyalty.org Subject: Re: New ACM special interest groups (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000410184806.041ca8b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Not true. I caught your signal; sorry if you do not like the way I > handled it. ;-) > > --Brett Ah, UN*X. Where else can you get away with killing things by the millions and it's you job to? :-)) ______________ ===|___/////////__> Job fortune(8): How many IBM CPU's does it take to execute a job? ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 18:21:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0821D37B556 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:21:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-202.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.202]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e3B1KYS03419; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:20:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA59059; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:20:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200004110120.UAA59059@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@freebsd.org From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Legal Comprehension (was: Re: ksh ?) In-reply-to: Message from Anatoly Vorobey of "Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:13:41 EDT." <20000410081341.A76278@sasami.jurai.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:20:32 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey writes: > You, David Kelly, were spotted writing this on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:58:02PM -0500: > > > > If I was Dictator Of The World I'd leave the President and Congress to > > do the dirty work but the first Order I'd impose would be, "You can > > pass no new law unless the President can score 70% on an exam based on > > that law." The simple idea being if a professional lawmaker doesn't > > understand 70% of the new law then there is no hope of a citizen ever > > understanding well enough to comply. > > But is the President a lawmaker? I thought he was a professional > law breaker^H^H^H^H^H^H^Henforcer and, err, vetoer... > > Maybe you should require the Congress to take the exam and the law > would only pass if >=70% members pass the exam... Great! Everyone living within the Beltline of Washington D.C. should be required to take the exam. If the class fails then not only does that law fall away but we'll hold a random drawing and throw out yet another law existing law until the Federal Code is weaned down to a comprehensible size. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 18:51:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1876937B8D0; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:51:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA27985; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:51:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGua4r2; Mon Apr 10 18:51:03 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02331; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:51:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004110151.SAA02331@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDCon East To: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:51:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens), naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Apr 10, 2000 10:08:25 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by usr09.primenet.com id SAA02331 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > How's he gonna spell d=E6mon? > > Probably "demon". The use of ae-dipthong (sp?) >=20 > Diphthong. One of the weirder words of the english language. What's another word for Thesaurus? -- Steven Wright Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 10 23: 0:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8CA1C37B85E for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 38F22EAF-10B3, Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:42:39 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not reply to this address) X-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:42:39 +0100 Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <38F22EAF.10B3@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:42:39 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org .From Brad: > Which one is correct presumably depends on whether you consider > the Oxford English Dictionary or Merriam-Webster to be definitive. Many would consider that these books canonise, so to speak, two different languages ;-) Incidentally, there's a copy of Fowler's dating from about the time of WW 1 somewhere on the web. It makes interesting reading. -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 0:14:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B379937B748 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 29893 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2000 07:14:21 -0000 Received: from du06.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.6) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 2000 07:14:21 -0000 Message-ID: <38F2D0A2.FE71D033@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:13:38 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Spellings References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <20000407202917.A1417@sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <8cq06a$1le0$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > By the way, I think one reason for the confusing nature of English > > spellings is that it has imported words from languages all over the > > world, often with little modification in spelling if the original > > script was the same, and it continues to do so. > > First, I think the tendency of English to pick up loans is > overstated. > A whole lot of words imported during the colonial period and > referring to foreign plants, animals, and cultures are actually in > pan-European use. English was reshaped by the large influx of > Romance vocabulary after the Norman invasion, but that has been a > historical event for a few centuries now. The mass importation of Latin words did not begin until the 16th century. As for the number of words, the OED has many more entries than any comparable dictionary for other languages. English often has several words for a single concept when other languages will have only one. This allows nuances to be expressed by word choice to a greater extent than other languages allow. As an aside, I wonder whether other European languages took the words you refer to from the "colonies" directly, or from English. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 0:19:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3791A37B843 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:19:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 11184 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2000 07:19:46 -0000 Received: from du06.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.6) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 2000 07:19:46 -0000 Message-ID: <38F2D1E7.7119FA0F@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:19:03 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <3.0.6.32.20000407145548.008cf100@mail85.pair.com> <20000407120154.A9276@sofia.csl.sri.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407145548.008cf100@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000407163211.00872d00@mail85.pair.com> <8cq4lu$1o3a$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > ... this is a wide-spread belief and--excuse me--pure rubbish. > I have _A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language_ by Quirk > et al. sitting here, which explains the "non-existent" intricacies > of English grammar on nearly 1800 pages. And it's probably not > exhaustive. > > For many linguistically naive people, the simplicity of a language's > grammar seems to hinge on the degree of inflection. Having a few > noun cases, adjective/noun agreements, and a few verb conjugations > does not make for an objectively(!) difficult grammar. English has > the same complexity, it's just expressed differently. Once you get > beyond the basic level of "me Tarzan, you Jane", English syntax > becomes fiendishly difficult. In what ways is it fiendishly difficult? Many so-called grammatical rules, such as to not split infinitives, are nothing but some 18th century antiquarian's idea of what the language should be, not what it really is. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 2:33:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web3202.mail.yahoo.com (web3202.mail.yahoo.com [204.71.202.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 594CB37B97F for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eddisbsd@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20000411093320.16974.qmail@web3202.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.214.209.22] by web3202.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:33:20 PDT Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:33:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Eddis JEfferson Subject: subscribe To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Subscribe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 2:36:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web3201.mail.yahoo.com (web3201.mail.yahoo.com [204.71.202.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A381E37B9DB for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eddisbsd@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20000411093646.7268.qmail@web3201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.214.209.22] by web3201.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:36:46 PDT Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:36:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Eddis JEfferson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 6:25:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hellasnet.gr (mail.hellasnet.gr [212.54.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071B237BA5C for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:25:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (ppp3.patr.hellasnet.gr [212.54.197.18]) by mail.hellasnet.gr (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA19713 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:24:41 +0200 (GMT) Received: (qmail 3991 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Apr 2000 12:11:02 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:11:02 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000411151102.B2130@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <20000404152346.01398@techunix.technion.ac.il> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cq15m$1mbp$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000409211409.D234@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 10:08:25AM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 10:08:25AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: > > On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 08:17:48PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > How's he gonna spell d?mon? > > Probably "demon". The use of ae-dipthong (sp?) > > Diphthong. One of the weirder words of the english language. Well, it's easy to see why this sounds `weird' in English. It's a Greek word, written with the proper latin characters in order to *sound* the same as it does in Greek. `Diphthongon' in Greek means something that is constructed by two `Phthongos'. The latter meaning a single letter, one can see that diphthongos means (in Greek): two-letters. It seems then, that this is an English word, borrowed from Greek. Of course, Greek has borrowed from English, French, Italian, etc. too. But that is another story. - Giorgos Keramidas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 10: 6:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA2D37BA05 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id TAA15779 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:06:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id EB7488796; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:57:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 07:57:39 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000411075739.A6907@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <8cgj1a$313f$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <8cj1cg$1gse$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000407202917.A1417@sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000407233952.A1610@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000409154425.A85284@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 11:52:48AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brad Knowles: > If they're going to be famously anal about protecting the > language from all possible encroachment from foreign languages, it > seems that they should apply these methods to their own website. They're inconsistent and many people don't take them seriously. They've tried to force people to use "translated" words and failed many times. Translating "CD-ROM" into "cédérom" for instance is ridiculous but it has never stopped them to try :) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 10:50:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA6537BBDB for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:50:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: by techunix.technion.ac.il (Postfix, from userid 14309) id C9D5F86B2; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:50:30 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <20000411195029.00602@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:50:29 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" Subject: Re: BSDCon East Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <38F2D1E7.7119FA0F@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 03:19:03AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 03:19:03AM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > > ... this is a wide-spread belief and--excuse me--pure rubbish. > > I have _A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language_ by Quirk > > et al. sitting here, which explains the "non-existent" intricacies > > of English grammar on nearly 1800 pages. And it's probably not > > exhaustive. > > > > For many linguistically naive people, the simplicity of a language's > > grammar seems to hinge on the degree of inflection. Having a few > > noun cases, adjective/noun agreements, and a few verb conjugations > > does not make for an objectively(!) difficult grammar. English has > > the same complexity, it's just expressed differently. Once you get > > beyond the basic level of "me Tarzan, you Jane", English syntax > > becomes fiendishly difficult. > > In what ways is it fiendishly difficult? Many so-called grammatical > rules, such as to not split infinitives, are nothing but some 18th > century antiquarian's idea of what the language should be, not what it > really is. There are many, many complex syntactical constructions which are difficult for a foreigner to understand and master. Consider, for instance, just off the top of my head, "many a X", or "Would that Y". Such constructions aren't covered in dictionaries or texts for foreigners. How would one know that the former is used as a deliberate archaism? Consider a sentence going "Granted, X has blablabla..., but...". How is a dictionary going to help a foreigner to parse it? Granted what? Granted who to whom? :) As another random example, speakers of Slavic languages often find it intensely difficult to remember and obey the time-shift rules in English, or the no-double-negatives rule. English syntax *is* fiendishly difficult, no in the least *because* it's so irregular: "rules" are violated so often that one has the feeling that anything goes -- except that it doesn't. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 10:56:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3F737B856 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:56:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA84488; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:56:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:56:02 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@freebsd.org, "Thomas M. Sommers" Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <20000411195029.00602@techunix.technion.ac.il> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > There are many, many complex syntactical constructions which are > difficult for a foreigner to understand and master. Consider, for instance, > just off the top of my head, "many a X", or "Would that Y". Such I agree with most of this. English syntax is decidedly odd. The construction "Would that Y X", though, is perfectly normal subjunctive usage. Nevermind that, were I to quiz my cow-orkers, 80% of them wouldn't know that. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 11:17:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085D137BBCD for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:17:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86952DB51; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:17:36 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:17:01 +0200 To: David Scheidt , Anatoly Vorobey From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Thomas M. Sommers" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:56 PM -0500 2000/4/11, David Scheidt wrote: > I agree with most of this. English syntax is decidedly odd. The > construction "Would that Y X", though, is perfectly normal subjunctive > usage. Nevermind that, were I to quiz my cow-orkers, 80% of them wouldn't > know that. You want that I should quiz my cow-orkers over here? ;-) -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 11:32:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0916837BACA for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r18.bfm.org [216.127.220.114]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:33:13 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000411133108.00917460@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:31:08 -0500 To: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <20000411195029.00602@techunix.technion.ac.il> References: <38F2D1E7.7119FA0F@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 19:50 11-04-2000 +0200, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >As another random example, speakers of Slavic languages often find >it intensely difficult to remember and obey the time-shift rules in >English, or the no-double-negatives rule. Hey, I never had no problem with no double negative! :) I'd say that rule is easier to follow for speakers of Slavic languages than for many a native English speaker. At least in America, many people break that rule (along with many others, e.g. saying "he don't", or even "we was" though that one is not too common) all the time. Remember the movie Twelve Angry Men? Where eleven of the jurors were ready to condemn an innocent man for a variety of reasons? One of the jurors was ready to convict him arguing that "he don't even speak good English." Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 11:47:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15FE37B755 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:47:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id UAA20308 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:47:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 392BB8796; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:22:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:22:21 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] Message-ID: <20000411202221.A11269@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000410101700.B317@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000410235535.B1339@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i In-Reply-To: <20000410235535.B1339@theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 11:55:36PM +0530 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Rahul Siddharthan: > view. It doesnt obviuosly mean anything dirty in French except if you > really stretch things, and in any case its unclear what you would > make it sound like. Yes. Speaking as a native french, the word "trou noir" is only very rarely used as something dirty. I don't even remember hearing that usage... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 14: 0:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praseodumium.btinternet.com (praseodumium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 702F637BB4A; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [195.99.44.241] (helo=parish.my.domain) by praseodumium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12f7kQ-0000Kp-00; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:58:59 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01693; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:59:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:59:55 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000411215955.A235@parish> References: <200004110151.SAA02331@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004110151.SAA02331@usr09.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 01:51:04AM +0000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 01:51:04AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > How's he gonna spell dæmon? > > > Probably "demon". The use of ae-dipthong (sp?) > > > > Diphthong. One of the weirder words of the english language. > > What's another word for Thesaurus? dictionary, collection, treasury. My source? Roget's of course :) > -- Steven Wright > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 14:21:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praseodumium.btinternet.com (praseodumium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40CC37BBFC for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [195.99.44.241] (helo=parish.my.domain) by praseodumium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12f851-0002qI-00; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:20:16 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01763; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:21:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:21:13 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000411222112.B235@parish> References: <38F11BBA.0137@funbox.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 11:29:24AM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 11:29:24AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:09 AM +0100 2000/4/10, do not reply to this address wrote: > > > I've *never* seen anaesthetic spelled anesthetic in English; in the > > U.S. of A., certainly... > > It definitely happens in the US. Fortunately the UK would appear > to be a bastion of proper usage with regards to certain pairs of > doubled vowels. > > Which one is correct presumably depends on whether you consider > the Oxford English Dictionary or Merriam-Webster to be definitive. > I would have to say that *the* canonical reference to the English language is the OED and that Webster is probably the American equivalent. The differences in spelling between English and American-English derive from 2 main sources. Firstly many of the early settlers from England were poorly educated (one of the reasons for going to the New World was to improve their lot) and secondly, Noah Webster deliberately introduced spelling differences into his original dictionary to help differentiate America from England. My favourite spelling difference is where the English (for the most part) actually get it wrong. Words ending ~ize are almost always spelled ~ise here (in books, newspapers etc) yet the OED shows ~ize to be correct, and it is only in recent versions of the OED that ~ise appears as an *alternative*. I always use ~ize, and believe that the origin of the misuse stems from people thinking that because Americans use ~ize that ~ise must be *correct* . > -- > These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy > ====================================================================== > Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV > Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 > Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels > http://www.skynet.be || Belgium > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 16:14: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BA937BAF6 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:14:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from ppp-208-190-158-24.dialup.austtx.swbell.net ([208.190.158.24]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FSV008LNKJ3XO@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:13:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00504; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:06:07 -0500 (CDT envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:06:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-reply-to: <38F2D1E7.7119FA0F@mail.ptd.net> To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: [snip] >In what ways is it fiendishly difficult? Many so-called grammatical >rules, such as to not split infinitives, are nothing but some 18th >century antiquarian's idea of what the language should be, not what it >really is. I would disagree that the notion is antiquated. Split infinitives create an ambiguous reference that isn't easily understood without back-tracking and sorting out the pointers. Double negatives are equally as bad. "I don't have no X..." is common American street idiom, but says little except the speaker has some X -- which isn't what they generally mean. 'if [ ! "$grammer" != "$common_sense" ]; then...' is difficult to read, hear or comprehend. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 16:14: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7CF37BB06 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:14:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from ppp-208-190-158-24.dialup.austtx.swbell.net ([208.190.158.24]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FSV008LNKJ3XO@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:13:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00482; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:49:34 -0500 (CDT envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:49:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-reply-to: To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: >At 12:56 PM -0500 2000/4/11, David Scheidt wrote: > >> I agree with most of this. English syntax is decidedly odd. The >> construction "Would that Y X", though, is perfectly normal subjunctive >> usage. Nevermind that, were I to quiz my cow-orkers, 80% of them wouldn't >> know that. > > You want that I should quiz my cow-orkers over here? ;-) I don't know about there, but, here in Texas, most folks called that would be insulted. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 16:31:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1427137BA31 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-83.ocis.net [209.52.173.215]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA31308; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:30:08 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:26:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: BSDCon East Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <38F35243.31304.FD5A5A0@localhost> In-reply-to: <20000411222112.B235@parish> References: ; from blk@skynet.be on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 11:29:24AM +0200 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > My favourite spelling difference is where the English (for the most > part) actually get it wrong. Words ending ~ize are almost always > spelled ~ise here (in books, newspapers etc) yet the OED shows ~ize to be > correct, and it is only in recent versions of the OED that ~ise appears as > an *alternative*. I always use ~ize, and believe that the origin of the > misuse stems from people thinking that because Americans use ~ize that > ~ise must be *correct* . Regardless of "correctness", Canadian English as taught in BC uses ~ise as the "correct" form, and we received harsh reprimands for using the American spellings in school. :-) Freddie Fcash@Bigfoot.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 16:54:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.wallnet.com (server1.wallnet.com [208.225.162.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A877D37BA80 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:54:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cweimann@server1.wallnet.com) Received: (from cweimann@localhost) by server1.wallnet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA18728; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20000411195315.D3143@wallnet.com> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:53:15 -0400 From: "Christopher S. Weimann" To: David Kelly , Thomas Gellekum Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Legal Comprehension (was: Re: ksh ?) References: <200004080358.WAA18525@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <200004080358.WAA18525@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:58:02PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:58:02PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > If I was Dictator Of The World I'd leave the President and Congress to > do the dirty work but the first Order I'd impose would be, "You can > pass no new law unless the President can score 70% on an exam based on > that law." The real question is who gets to compose the test. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Weimann SysAdmin 400 Higgins Ave Wall Internet LLC. Brielle NJ, 08730 Serving almost all of New Jersey 732-223-1777 ------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 18: 7:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6D137BBB6 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:07:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA05957; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:07:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHaaOEl; Tue Apr 11 18:07:21 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08773; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:07:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004120107.SAA08773@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDCon East To: fcash@bigfoot.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:07:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38F35243.31304.FD5A5A0@localhost> from "Freddie Cash" at Apr 11, 2000 04:26:43 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Regardless of "correctness", Canadian English as taught in BC uses ~ise > as the "correct" form, and we received harsh reprimands for using the > American spellings in school. :-) Probably the French influences... ... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 18:16:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453BE37BBB6 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:16:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA08740; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:16:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAZEaqar; Tue Apr 11 18:15:59 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA09141; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:16:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004120116.SAA09141@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDCon East To: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:16:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Apr 11, 2000 06:06:07 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >In what ways is it fiendishly difficult? Many so-called grammatical > >rules, such as to not split infinitives, are nothing but some 18th > >century antiquarian's idea of what the language should be, not what it > >really is. > > I would disagree that the notion is antiquated. Split infinitives > create an ambiguous reference that isn't easily understood without > back-tracking and sorting out the pointers. So what you're saying is, it makes your LISP code more complicated, and you don't like that for some reason... "You can't add too much water to a nuclear reactor..." "You can't stare too long at a nuclear cloud..." -- Edward Asner, Saturday Night Live "Take my wife, please." -- Groucho Marx > Double negatives are equally as bad. "I don't have no X..." is common > American street idiom, but says little except the speaker has some X > -- which isn't what they generally mean. "I can't get no... satisfaction." -- Mick Jagger "I can't get no respect." -- Rodney Dangerfield > 'if [ ! "$grammer" != "$common_sense" ]; then...' is difficult to > read, hear or comprehend. Wait! That isn't "csh" syntax! Are you running "tcsh" or something? Let me try it out... % What would I have if I had a ) for the each hour these threads have run? Too many )'s. % Terrm Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 18:38: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0617137B916 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:37:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-5-39.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.39]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e3C1bsI28144; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:37:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA65720; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:37:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200004120137.UAA65720@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Christopher S. Weimann" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Legal Comprehension (was: Re: ksh ?) In-reply-to: Message from "Christopher S. Weimann" of "Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:53:15 EDT." <20000411195315.D3143@wallnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:37:51 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Christopher S. Weimann" writes: > On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:58:02PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > > > If I was Dictator Of The World I'd leave the President and Congress to > > do the dirty work but the first Order I'd impose would be, "You can > > pass no new law unless the President can score 70% on an exam based on > > that law." > > The real question is who gets to compose the test. Those who voted against it. ??? The the Supreme Court could grade the exam(s). If the entire Congress were required to take the exam then in the future when the Supreme Court is scratching its head trying to decide what Congress really meant by a law then they'd have the exam records for insite to see what the members really knew and were thinking. The elements everybody misses clearly should not have as much weight under the law. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 18:41:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.wallnet.com (server1.wallnet.com [208.225.162.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D631737BC8A for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:41:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cweimann@server1.wallnet.com) Received: (from cweimann@localhost) by server1.wallnet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA23840; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20000411214107.D20613@wallnet.com> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:41:07 -0400 From: "Christopher S. Weimann" To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Legal Comprehension (was: Re: ksh ?) References: <200004120137.UAA65720@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <200004120137.UAA65720@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:37:51PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:37:51PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > > > The real question is who gets to compose the test. > > Those who voted against it. ??? > I like that! -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Weimann SysAdmin 400 Higgins Ave Wall Internet LLC. Brielle NJ, 08730 Serving almost all of New Jersey 732-223-1777 ------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 19:44:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872FA37B8C6 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:44:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from ppp-209-184-1-99.austtx.swbell.net ([209.184.1.99]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FSV005NTU5LZD@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:41:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01097; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:28:13 -0500 (CDT envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:28:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-reply-to: <200004120116.SAA09141@usr01.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >In what ways is it fiendishly difficult? Many so-called grammatical >> >rules, such as to not split infinitives, are nothing but some 18th >> >century antiquarian's idea of what the language should be, not what it >> >really is. >> >> I would disagree that the notion is antiquated. Split infinitives >> create an ambiguous reference that isn't easily understood without >> back-tracking and sorting out the pointers. > >So what you're saying is, it makes your LISP code more complicated, >and you don't like that for some reason... (absolutely(right(you are))); > "You can't add too much water to a nuclear reactor..." > "You can't stare too long at a nuclear cloud..." > -- Edward Asner, Saturday Night Live > "Take my wife, please." > -- Groucho Marx > > >> Double negatives are equally as bad. "I don't have no X..." is common >> American street idiom, but says little except the speaker has some X >> -- which isn't what they generally mean. > > "I can't get no... satisfaction." > -- Mick Jagger If his biography is true, that's probably correct;) As ugly and as obnoxious as he was, that borders on unbelievable. > "I can't get no respect." > -- Rodney Dangerfield That, I don't think was true -- which explains the humor. > >> 'if [ ! "$grammer" != "$common_sense" ]; then...' is difficult to >> read, hear or comprehend. > > >Wait! That isn't "csh" syntax! Are you running "tcsh" or >something? > >Let me try it out... If you like it, I release it under the BSD license. Of course, it works about as well as a similar construct in English. There are no warranties either expressed or implied. >% What would I have if I had a ) for the each hour these threads have run? >Too many )'s. >% $ A syntax error probably -- and something equally difficult to understand. Terry, I'm hurt that you didn't feel my pain:) -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 19:58:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E662037B77E for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:58:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac7.wam.umd.edu (root@rac7.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.147]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28630 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac7.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac7.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA16598 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac7.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac7.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16593 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:57:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004120257.WAA16593@rac7.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac7.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Internationalization Issues Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:57:53 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is not a strictly BSD question but since I am implementing it on BSD, here goes... At a site I work on (http://www.arbornet.org), we are considering adding more support for international users. Specifically, I was going to take one of our locally developed programs called gate (http://www.wwnet.net/~janc/gate.html), and add support for French, German, and Spanish as part of a "pilot study." Is it enough to merely translate the help file? It is short enough I have attached it to the end. Or should I also translate the commands ("help", "edit", etc.)? What is the best way to support non-English speaking users? Any and all advice appreciated. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 22:12: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C1AA837B848 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:12:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 27577 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 05:11:51 -0000 Received: from du12.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.12) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 05:11:51 -0000 Message-ID: <38F4056E.C745DC8A@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:11:10 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson wrote: > > I would disagree that the notion is antiquated. Split infinitives > create an ambiguous reference that isn't easily understood without > back-tracking and sorting out the pointers. I disagree. In general, split infinitives are easier to understand, if only because the adverb is directly adjacent to the verb it modifies, and it is in the ordinary English position for modifiers: before. "To boldly go" is clearer and even scans better than "Boldly to go" or "To go boldly". Fowler would agree. > Double negatives are equally as bad. "I don't have no X..." is > common American street idiom, but says little except the speaker has > some X -- which isn't what they generally mean. Grammar is not math. In fact, double and triple negatives reinforce each other, not cancel each other. > 'if [ ! "$grammer" != "$common_sense" ]; then...' is difficult to > read, hear or comprehend. The problem arises in defining just what is common sensical, and what isn't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 22:15:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC54A37B6F7 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 6963 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 05:15:42 -0000 Received: from du12.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.12) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 05:15:42 -0000 Message-ID: <38F40654.75BA5154@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:15:00 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Legal Comprehension (was: Re: ksh ?) References: <200004120137.UAA65720@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > "Christopher S. Weimann" writes: > > On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:58:02PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > > > > > If I was Dictator Of The World I'd leave the President and Congress to > > > do the dirty work but the first Order I'd impose would be, "You can > > > pass no new law unless the President can score 70% on an exam based on > > > that law." > > > > The real question is who gets to compose the test. > > Those who voted against it. ??? > > The the Supreme Court could grade the exam(s). Who tests the Supreme Court? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 22:29:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A5B37BAF2 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14316; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:29:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200004120529.BAA14316@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200004120116.SAA09141@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:29:40 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-Apr-00 Terry Lambert wrote: > % What would I have if I had a ) for the each hour these threads have run? > Too many )'s. > % > > > > Terrm Lambert > terry@lambert.org Haha, looks like a fortune(6) candidate to me. :) BTW, this has absolutely nothing to do with having a BSDCon on the US east coast. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 22:31:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69C337B5A8 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:31:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14326 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:31:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Message-Id: <200004120531.BAA14326@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:31:37 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Everyone Harrass Bill Paul Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have it on good authority that today (April 12) is Bill Paul's 33rd birthday. Feel free to wish our network driver guru a happy one at wpaul@FreeBSD.org. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 22:39:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1071A37BCA6 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:39:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA89660; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:39:23 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Legal Comprehension (was: Re: ksh ?) Message-ID: <20000411223923.A89634@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <200004120137.UAA65720@nospam.hiwaay.net> <38F40654.75BA5154@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38F40654.75BA5154@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 01:15:00AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 01:15:00AM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > David Kelly wrote: > > > > "Christopher S. Weimann" writes: > > > On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:58:02PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > > > > > > > If I was Dictator Of The World I'd leave the President and Congress to > > > > do the dirty work but the first Order I'd impose would be, "You can > > > > pass no new law unless the President can score 70% on an exam based on > > > > that law." > > > > > > The real question is who gets to compose the test. > > > > Those who voted against it. ??? > > > > The the Supreme Court could grade the exam(s). > > Who tests the Supreme Court? Those who are not part of the power structure, ie. "We, the People" Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 22:52:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AEE9037B716 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 6622 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 05:51:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.125) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 05:51:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 1605 invoked by uid 211); 12 Apr 2000 05:51:03 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:21:03 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000412112102.B1588@theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Ovens , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <38F11BBA.0137@funbox.demon.co.uk> <20000411222112.B235@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000411222112.B235@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 10:21:13PM +0100 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i586 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I would have to say that *the* canonical reference to the English > language is the OED and that Webster is probably the American > equivalent. Yes, but the OED doesn't necessarily represent existing usage accurately. It contains a lot of editorialising and attempts to shape the future of the language. My favourite example is "Shakspere" -- they admit that the more common spelling is "perh. Shakespeare". This is the first edition, I haven't checked what the newer edition says. > My favourite spelling difference is where the English (for the most > part) actually get it wrong. Words ending ~ize are almost always > spelled ~ise here (in books, newspapers etc) yet the OED shows ~ize to > be correct, and it is only in recent versions of the OED that ~ise > appears as an *alternative*. No, the first edition lists -ise as a frequent alternative. I think this is also an example of trying to influence future usage rather than representing current usage faithfully. I've never seen -ize in English books older than the mid-20th century: it's always -ise (in analogy with -ism and -ist). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 11 23: 4: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0612537BC48 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 18566 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 06:04:03 -0000 Received: from du12.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.12) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 06:04:03 -0000 Message-ID: <38F411A9.A81D0563@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:03:21 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <38F11BBA.0137@funbox.demon.co.uk> <20000411222112.B235@parish> <20000412112102.B1588@theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > I would have to say that *the* canonical reference to the English > > language is the OED and that Webster is probably the American > > equivalent. > > Yes, but the OED doesn't necessarily represent existing usage > accurately. It contains a lot of editorialising and attempts > to shape the future of the language. > > My favourite example is "Shakspere" -- they admit that the > more common spelling is "perh. Shakespeare". This is the > first edition, I haven't checked what the newer edition says. Since Bill himself used several different spellings, it's hard to justify any particular spelling as 'correct'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 0: 1:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19FB437B97F for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:01:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 6750 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 07:00:58 -0000 Received: from theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.125) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 07:00:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 1778 invoked by uid 211); 12 Apr 2000 07:00:46 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:30:45 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000412123045.A1767@theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <38F11BBA.0137@funbox.demon.co.uk> <20000411222112.B235@parish> <20000412112102.B1588@theory5.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <38F411A9.A81D0563@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38F411A9.A81D0563@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:03:21AM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i586 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I would have to say that *the* canonical reference to the English > > > language is the OED and that Webster is probably the American > > > equivalent. > > > > Yes, but the OED doesn't necessarily represent existing usage > > accurately. It contains a lot of editorialising and attempts > > to shape the future of the language. > > > > My favourite example is "Shakspere" -- they admit that the > > more common spelling is "perh. Shakespeare". This is the > > first edition, I haven't checked what the newer edition says. > > Since Bill himself used several different spellings, it's hard to > justify any particular spelling as 'correct'. I wasn't talking about correctness, but about representing usage accurately. Correct usage is what the majority accept to be correct. "Show" would have been wrong at one time and "shew" correct, but today "shew" looks very odd indeed. "Hiccup" also looks preferable to "hiccough" now, and "Eskimo" to "Esquimau". So I'd say Shakespeare is preferable to other spellings, and in British usage at least, -ise is preferable to -ize, and they survive despite the OED. That suggests that a dictionary, no matter how authoritative or widely accepted, is not the final answer. Usage may change, but only by general consensus, not by fiat. The OED also says that "color" has been in use since the 15th century, does not suggest that it is wrong in the UK, and points out that it is the preferred spelling in the US; but that didn't stop Brits (and Indians and others) from continuing with "colour". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 1: 8:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D4F37B9DF for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:08:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA28170; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:49:52 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA66713; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:08:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:08:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Everyone Harrass Bill Paul In-Reply-To: <200004120531.BAA14326@server.baldwin.cx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have it on good authority that today (April 12) is Bill Paul's > 33rd birthday. Feel free to wish our network driver guru a happy > one at wpaul@FreeBSD.org. With friends like these . . . . ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 2:56:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ravi.lums.edu.pk (ravi.lums.edu.pk [203.128.0.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2031337BAD1 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:56:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk) Received: from ravi.lums.edu.pk (ms43.lums.edu.pk [203.128.1.183]) by ravi.lums.edu.pk (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25618 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:56:16 +0500 (PKT) (envelope-from 01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk) Message-ID: <38F44899.C7E5EAFA@ravi.lums.edu.pk> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:57:45 +0500 From: mona <01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Make System Call Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, How do i make a system call. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 2:56:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ravi.lums.edu.pk (ravi.lums.edu.pk [203.128.0.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFED637B762 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk) Received: from ravi.lums.edu.pk (ms43.lums.edu.pk [203.128.1.183]) by ravi.lums.edu.pk (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25624 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:56:34 +0500 (PKT) (envelope-from 01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk) Message-ID: <38F448AC.321255D3@ravi.lums.edu.pk> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:58:04 +0500 From: mona <01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Make System Call Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, How do i make a system call. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 3:19:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AAF37B9A5 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:19:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA67318062; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:19:27 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:07:49 +0200 To: Jay Nelson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:49 PM -0500 2000/4/11, Jay Nelson wrote: > I don't know about there, but, here in Texas, most folks called that > would be insulted. I grew up in Oklahoma, and my wife's family is all from Texas, so I think I'm qualified to make this observation/joke -- for some people I've met, the cows should be insulted. ;-) -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 3:26:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30BE37B5AE for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:26:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA99534; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:24:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: mona <01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk> Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make System Call References: <38F44899.C7E5EAFA@ravi.lums.edu.pk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Apr 2000 12:24:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: mona's message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:57:45 +0500" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org mona <01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk> writes: > Hey, > How do i make a system call. I dunno. I have a hard enough time getting girls to call me; I've never tried it with a system. And to be frank, I don't quite see what kind of conversation we'd have. On the other hand, systems are a lot easier to turn on... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 3:58:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225B837B963 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 03:58:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A591F21E; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:58:49 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38F448AC.321255D3@ravi.lums.edu.pk> References: <38F448AC.321255D3@ravi.lums.edu.pk> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:56:15 +0200 To: mona <01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Make System Call Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:58 PM +0500 2000/4/12, mona wrote: > How do i make a system call. You tell it to pick up the telephone? -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 4: 5:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citadel.cequrux.com (citadel.cdsec.com [192.96.22.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE4437B8EE for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:05:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vukko@cequrux.com) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by citadel.cequrux.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12963; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:05:40 +0200 (SAST) Received: by citadel.cequrux.com via recvmail id 12961; Wed Apr 12 13:05:21 2000 Message-ID: <38F45964.889A787@cequrux.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:09:24 +0200 From: "Marko Vukovic'" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: mona <01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make System Call References: <38F448AC.321255D3@ravi.lums.edu.pk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 2:58 PM +0500 2000/4/12, mona wrote: > > > How do i make a system call. > > You tell it to pick up the telephone? > > -- Just make sure you have the correct dialing codes in /usr/local/syscall/syscall.conf 'cause you might end up calling a wrong number ;) -- Marko. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 4: 9:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7EB0637B561 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 29894 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 11:09:38 -0000 Received: from du99.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.99) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 11:09:38 -0000 Message-ID: <38F45948.1EC8D928@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:08:56 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mona <01020071@ravi.lums.edu.pk> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Make System Call References: <38F44899.C7E5EAFA@ravi.lums.edu.pk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org mona wrote: > > Hey, > How do i make a system call. If you mean in assembler, take a look at http://home.ptd.net/~tms2/hello.html If you mean in C, look at section 2 of the manual. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 4:34: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88FE37BBFA for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:34:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 098CB7556; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066741D89; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:34:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Jay Nelson Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Jay Nelson wrote: :On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: : :>At 12:56 PM -0500 2000/4/11, David Scheidt wrote: :> :>> I agree with most of this. English syntax is decidedly odd. The :>> construction "Would that Y X", though, is perfectly normal subjunctive :>> usage. Nevermind that, were I to quiz my cow-orkers, 80% of them wouldn't :>> know that. :> :> You want that I should quiz my cow-orkers over here? ;-) : :I don't know about there, but, here in Texas, most folks called that :would be insulted. That's kind of the point. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 4:35: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bne004m.webcentral.com.au (bne004m.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E18CD37B7B6 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 04:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 11696 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 11:34:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO timberwolf) (203.147.164.2) by bne004m.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 11:34:53 -0000 Message-ID: <003501bfa474$295d3880$02a493cb@timberwolf> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Wesley Clarke" , "Steve Lever" , "robert edwards" , "John Morrison" , "Joel Hatton" , "Cameron Green" , , , , "Garth Lane" , "Patrick" Cc: , Subject: Camping this easter? Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:41:57 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org No, not the kind camping with tents...the kind of camping with railguns! I'm entertaining the possibility of holding a lan party this easter break, and I'd like to see who's interested. I need to know if you can get a hub or maybe some extra cable, extra 'puters to run as game servers, or a venue of some sort. (Don't think my flat's big enough if all you people decide to come.) Also, let us know which games you'd like to play, and how long you can sustain yourself for. For the benefit of those who don't know me, the event will be held about two weeks from now, and will take place around the Brisbane area. More details, feel free to ask me. If you want to bring friends, that's fine, just include them in the head (and hub) count. I'd like replies ASAP. Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5934 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 5:19:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smart.visp-europe.psi.com (smart.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2FEE37B682 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 05:19:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from ip106.berlin68.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.68.106] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by smart.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #4) id 12fM6p-0003Sd-00; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:19:03 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 4BD0E4FA93; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:18:47 +0200 (CEST) To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <20000411195029.00602@techunix.technion.ac.il> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 12 Apr 2000 14:18:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: Anatoly Vorobey's message of "Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:50:29 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 41 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey writes on freebsd-chat: > Consider, for instance, just off the top of my head, "many a X", > or "Would that Y". Such constructions aren't covered in > dictionaries or texts for foreigners. How would one know that the > former is used as a deliberate archaism? The answer is, of course, "read a *lot*, all kinds of stuff from the highest literature to Usenet, and pay attention to what you read." Even after learning English for nine years at school, it took me several years of reading until I was comfortable reading English texts. Another several years later I am still sometimes baffled by a sentence where my parser has to backtrack two or three times. > Consider a sentence going "Granted, X has blablabla..., but...". > How is a dictionary going to help a foreigner to parse it? Granted > what? Granted who to whom? :) Isn't this a figure common in other languages? It certainly is common in German, but, granted :-), English and German *are* quite close. > English syntax *is* fiendishly difficult, no in the least > *because* it's so irregular: "rules" are violated so often that > one has the feeling that anything goes -- except that it doesn't. Yes. Once I was writing some 20 pages of a technical text in English. This wasn't particularly difficult, but here and then there was a sentence which I knew I hadn't got quite right -- not that it was really wrong or that it was incomprehensible, but it didn't *sound* right, not really English, like it had been written by a non-native speaker (which it was). An american colleague who proofread the text made just miniscule changes to these sentences -- she inserted a word or deleted another, slightly changed the order of the sentence, or replaced a word with a better one. And voila!, the sound was right. -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 6:13:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2009537B644 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:13:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3B8180C9; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20000411195029.00602@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:03:35 +0200 To: Juergen Nickelsen , Anatoly Vorobey From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:18 PM +0200 2000/4/12, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > Another several years later I am still sometimes baffled by a > sentence where my parser has to backtrack two or three times. I've been a native speaker/reader/writer of English for more than thirty years, and I still have this problem. While no one has accused me of being an expert in the English language, its syntax, or grammar, I hold myself to what I consider to be some relatively high standards in terms of the quality of my writing. Heck, some sentences are even semi-readable. ;-) Seriously, people approach linguistic perfection asymptotically, and some get a lot closer than others, even within the category of "native speakers". Regardless, just because of stylistic differences, it may be more or less difficult for native speakers to comprehend what some other native speaker has said or written. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 8:21: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1D737C075 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:20:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA65964; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:20:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:20:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004121520.RAA65964@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internationalization Issues X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8d0ooh$qqu$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat James Howard wrote: > Is it enough to merely translate the help file? It is short enough I have > attached it to the end. Or should I also translate the commands ("help", > "edit", etc.)? What is the best way to support non-English speaking > users? Any and all advice appreciated. My opinion as a native German speaker... Commands, menus etc. should not be translated. Each time I have to use a program that contains German commands etc., it rather adds to the confusion instead of reducing it. Apart from that, translations are often inconsistent, and different programs translate technical terms differently. Also, it makes discussing problems on mailing lists and newsgroups (especially international ones) much more difficult (``"Pref" menu? I've got no such menu, do you possibly mean the "Voreinst" menu?''). I think it's sufficient to translate the manual, and maybe write some kind of glossary to explain the non-translated terms. Just my 0.02 Euro. Regards Oliver PS: I've seen things like "Abzweigung fehlgeschlagen" and even "Gabel defekt" as translations of "fork failed". :-) -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 10: 6:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3351437B7BF for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 38F43EBB-2F79, Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:15:39 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not reply to this address) X-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:15:39 +0100 Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <38F43EBB.2F79@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:15:39 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas Sommers wrote: > In what ways is it fiendishly difficult? Many so-called grammatical > rules, such as to not split infinitives, are nothing but some 18th > century antiquarian's idea of what the language should be, not what it > really is. Try the correct use of the subjunctive. Also, these days even the gerund is often embedded in incorrect usage. And it goes without saying that there is frequently a difference between the colloquial and the correct. -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 13:13:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tantalum.btinternet.com (tantalum.btinternet.com [194.73.73.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8F137B8B6 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [62.6.102.58] (helo=parish.my.domain) by tantalum.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12fTLl-0003s6-00; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:02:58 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01058; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:11:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:11:18 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jay Nelson , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000412211118.C236@parish> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 12:07:49PM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 12:07:49PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 5:49 PM -0500 2000/4/11, Jay Nelson wrote: > > > I don't know about there, but, here in Texas, most folks called that > > would be insulted. > > I grew up in Oklahoma, and my wife's family is all from Texas, so > I think I'm qualified to make this observation/joke ...and safely far enough away from Texas :) > -- for some people I've met, the cows should be insulted. ;-) > > -- > These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy > ====================================================================== > Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV > Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 > Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels > http://www.skynet.be || Belgium > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 16: 0:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 25A8137B9E1 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:00:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 38F442DB-2FB8, Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:33:15 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not reply to this address) X-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:33:15 +0100 Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <38F442DB.2FB8@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:33:15 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I believe that the latest edition of the OED allows split infinitives, but (with luck :) I may be wrong... > In general, split infinitives are easier to understand, if > only because the adverb is directly adjacent to the verb it modifies, > and it is in the ordinary English position for modifiers: before. "To > boldly go" is clearer and even scans better than "Boldly to go" or "To > go boldly". Fowler would agree. *Does* Fowler agree? Me, I doubt it! -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . 6 3 4 @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 16: 6:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 65D5037B7BC for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:06:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 9807 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 23:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 23:06:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 10953 invoked by uid 211); 12 Apr 2000 23:06:06 -0000 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:36:06 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: do not reply to this address Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000413043606.A10948@theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: do not reply to this address , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <38F442DB.2FB8@funbox.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38F442DB.2FB8@funbox.demon.co.uk>; from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:33:15AM +0100 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In general, split infinitives are easier to understand, if > > only because the adverb is directly adjacent to the verb it modifies, > > and it is in the ordinary English position for modifiers: before. "To > > boldly go" is clearer and even scans better than "Boldly to go" or "To > > go boldly". Fowler would agree. > > *Does* Fowler agree? Me, I doubt it! Fowler gives the following example of a desirable split infinitive: "Our object is to further cement trade relations". Any rearrangement would give a wrong or ambiguous meaning. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 16:18:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0182A37B97E for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:18:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00470; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:18:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200004122318.TAA00470@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000413043606.A10948@theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:18:00 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-Apr-00 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> > In general, split infinitives are easier to understand, if >> > only because the adverb is directly adjacent to the verb it modifies, >> > and it is in the ordinary English position for modifiers: before. "To >> > boldly go" is clearer and even scans better than "Boldly to go" or "To >> > go boldly". Fowler would agree. >> >> *Does* Fowler agree? Me, I doubt it! > > Fowler gives the following example of a desirable split infinitive: > "Our object is to further cement trade relations". > > Any rearrangement would give a wrong or ambiguous meaning. Our object is to cement trade relations further. There, what's ambiguous about that? :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 16:21:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E89C337B8D7 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:21:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 9833 invoked from network); 12 Apr 2000 23:21:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 12 Apr 2000 23:21:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 10969 invoked by uid 211); 12 Apr 2000 23:21:39 -0000 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:51:39 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000413045139.C10948@theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20000413043606.A10948@theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200004122318.TAA00470@server.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004122318.TAA00470@server.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 07:18:00PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Fowler gives the following example of a desirable split infinitive: > > "Our object is to further cement trade relations". > > > > Any rearrangement would give a wrong or ambiguous meaning. > > Our object is to cement trade relations further. > > There, what's ambiguous about that? :) True. I can't remember what exactly Fowler said, but he probably thought it would be ugly. The adverb ought to be placed next to or near the verb, not separated from it by half the sentence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 17:45:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 66E9937BA94 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:45:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 8319 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2000 00:45:42 -0000 Received: from du82.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.82) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 2000 00:45:42 -0000 Message-ID: <38F5188B.C9D425C0@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:44:59 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <38F442DB.2FB8@funbox.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org do not reply to this address wrote: > > I believe that the latest edition of the OED allows split infinitives, > but (with luck :) I may be wrong... > > > In general, split infinitives are easier to understand, if > > only because the adverb is directly adjacent to the verb it modifies, > > and it is in the ordinary English position for modifiers: before. "To > > boldly go" is clearer and even scans better than "Boldly to go" or "To > > go boldly". Fowler would agree. > > *Does* Fowler agree? Me, I doubt it! On p. 581: a split infinitive "is preferable to either of two things, to real ambiguity, and to patent artificiality." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 17:56:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B582A37B691 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:56:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 20450 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2000 00:56:36 -0000 Received: from du82.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.82) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 2000 00:56:36 -0000 Message-ID: <38F51B1B.A37CD69A@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:55:55 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <200004122318.TAA00470@server.baldwin.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > > On 12-Apr-00 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> > In general, split infinitives are easier to understand, if > >> > only because the adverb is directly adjacent to the verb it modifies, > >> > and it is in the ordinary English position for modifiers: before. "To > >> > boldly go" is clearer and even scans better than "Boldly to go" or "To > >> > go boldly". Fowler would agree. > >> > >> *Does* Fowler agree? Me, I doubt it! > > > > Fowler gives the following example of a desirable split infinitive: > > "Our object is to further cement trade relations". > > > > Any rearrangement would give a wrong or ambiguous meaning. > > Our object is to cement trade relations further. > > There, what's ambiguous about that? :) "It does not add to a writer's readableness if readers are pulled up now and again to wonder--Why this distortion? Ah, to be sure, a non-split die-hard." Fowler, p. 580. Fowler splits the English-speaking world into 5 groups, the first of which includes those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive is. Of this group he says: "Those who neither know nor care are the vast majority, and are a happy folk, to be envied by most of the minority classes. 'To really understand' comes readier to their lips and pens than 'really to understand'; they see no reason why they should not say it (small blame to them, seeing that reasons are not their critics' strong point), and they do say it, to the discomfort of some among us, but not to their own." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 18:19:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FDC37B753; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:19:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04875; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:19:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: John Baldwin Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Grammar In-Reply-To: <200004122318.TAA00470@server.baldwin.cx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > Our object is to cement trade relations further. > > There, what's ambiguous about that? :) Dangling participle. -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 21:11:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE81C37BBEC for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:11:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 10134 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2000 04:11:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 Apr 2000 04:11:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 1712 invoked by uid 211); 13 Apr 2000 04:11:06 -0000 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:41:06 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000413094106.B1701@theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200004122318.TAA00470@server.baldwin.cx> <38F51B1B.A37CD69A@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38F51B1B.A37CD69A@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 08:55:55PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Our object is to cement trade relations further. > > > > There, what's ambiguous about that? :) > > "It does not add to a writer's readableness if readers are pulled up now > and again to wonder--Why this distortion? Ah, to be sure, a non-split > die-hard." Fowler, p. 580. > > Fowler splits the English-speaking world into 5 groups, the first of > which includes those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive > is. Of this group he says: "Those who neither know nor care are the > vast majority, and are a happy folk, to be envied by most of the > minority classes. 'To really understand' comes readier to their lips > and pens than 'really to understand'; they see no reason why they should > not say it (small blame to them, seeing that reasons are not their > critics' strong point), and they do say it, to the discomfort of some > among us, but not to their own." Fowler is fun to read. Kingsley Amis (in a book called, I think, "The King's English") points out how this anti-split-infinitive sentiment spills over to other constructions too: he cites some such sentence as "It is rare to find someone totally being honest" (I don't remember his example) and continues, "The seasoned campaigner will sniff in the air and smell someone who dislikes split infinitives" or words to that effect. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 12 21:36:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D504E37B7CF for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: by techunix.technion.ac.il (Postfix, from userid 14309) id 19BC4864F; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 06:36:44 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <20000413063644.54931@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 06:36:44 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 04:36:06AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > In general, split infinitives are easier to understand, if > > > only because the adverb is directly adjacent to the verb it modifies, > > > and it is in the ordinary English position for modifiers: before. "To > > > boldly go" is clearer and even scans better than "Boldly to go" or "To > > > go boldly". Fowler would agree. > > > > *Does* Fowler agree? Me, I doubt it! > > Fowler gives the following example of a desirable split infinitive: > "Our object is to further cement trade relations". I wonder if this citation is from the original Fowler, or one of the later editions. It sounds remarkably modern, doesn't it? Fowler himself, of course, has been pushing up the daisies for more than half a century now; I've met a few people who were unaware of that and were thinking he is alive and working on a new version somewhere. Most folks' Fowler is Fowler revised by Gowers in 1965, which is not bad in itself, as the revision is superb, but it helps to be aware of that. Of course, this isn't half as bad as the deplorable situation with American dictionaries, what with all those Webster's around. ObLanguageWarsReference: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97mar/halpern/halpern.htm http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97mar/halpern/nunberg.htm -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 13 5: 1: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3F637B67F for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:01:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rage@cyberwitch.org) Received: from localhost (rage@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e3DBxqk17042; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:59:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Rhiannon X-Sender: rage@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Taylor Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spellings [was Re: BSDCon East] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bravo ! Finally, someone who actually understands the concept of a 'Universa Language' Exactly ...there are words which just should not be translated into every single dialect known to man/woman and alien. Now i'm not downgrading the study of languages, but in the scientific circles, and especially the technological world, we have enough to do with deciphering code, etc. I think it's about time someone/some group sets down the principles for a Universal Communication Language that all techno and lay people can understand. Ok can somebody please help me get down from this soapbox now ? :P Lorraine }*{ how do you know she's a witch ? * * * rage@cyberwitch.org rage@rush.net rage@free.bsdunix.net On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > French are known to be touchy about imports of American words, but > > concepts like "hot dog" and "internet" didn't exist in France earlier, > > and to me it makes little sense to invent new words for these when > > perfectly good words for these are already in use everywhere else.... > > If you think they were touchy about "hot dog" you can probably imagine the > uproar when physicists started talking about "black holes." I'll let you > figure out what the French word for that is. :-) > > Brett > ***************************************************** > Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * > Dept of Chem and Physics * > Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * > Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * > ***************************************************** > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 13 5: 3:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0353C37B582; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:03:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03950; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:03:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: John Baldwin Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <200004122318.TAA00470@server.baldwin.cx> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Apr 2000 14:03:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Baldwin's message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:18:00 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin writes: > On 12-Apr-00 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Fowler gives the following example of a desirable split infinitive: > > "Our object is to further cement trade relations". > > Any rearrangement would give a wrong or ambiguous meaning. > > Our object is to cement trade relations further. > > There, what's ambiguous about that? :) Actuall, the original sentence is ambiguous since cement is also a noun. Substitute either "strengthen" or "apple" for "cement"; both variations make (a different) sense. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 13 7:18:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C934F37B617 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:18:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02504; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:18:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200004131418.KAA02504@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:18:08 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Rahul Siddharthan Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Apr-00 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > John Baldwin writes: >> On 12-Apr-00 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> > Fowler gives the following example of a desirable split infinitive: >> > "Our object is to further cement trade relations". >> > Any rearrangement would give a wrong or ambiguous meaning. >> >> Our object is to cement trade relations further. >> >> There, what's ambiguous about that? :) > > Actuall, the original sentence is ambiguous since cement is also a > noun. Substitute either "strengthen" or "apple" for "cement"; both > variations make (a different) sense. Heh, in actuality this sentence just sucks and needs to be reworded rather than rearranged. > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 13 9:10:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhub2.isdnet.net (mailhub2.isdnet.net [195.154.209.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0A937BA7B for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:10:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from klakhiani@isdnet.net) Received: from mange.isdnet.net (pathfinger.isdnet.net [62.4.2.27] (may be forged)) by mailhub2.isdnet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA01739 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:10:08 +0200 (CEST) From: Kamal Lakhiani To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: XMEN movie desktop theme Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:53:42 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00041314024305.01935@mange.isdnet.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marvel comic book fans remark : a Windows desktop theme for the new X-Men movie EXISTS. http://www.ibocce.com/xmen.html (WinZip archive) I wonder if anyone has attempted to improvise a desktop environment utility compatible with Microsoft Plus! themes ? -- + Kamal Lakhiani To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 13 12:31:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D1E37B9BF for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02988 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:31:29 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Head count for April San Francisco BAFUG Message-ID: <20000413123129.A2950@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 6pm it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 14 11:29:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8176F37BF4F for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:29:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papalia@UDel.Edu) Received: from copland.udel.edu (copland.udel.edu [128.175.13.92]) by copland.udel.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20816 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:29:28 -0400 (EDT) From: John To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: MS gets caught? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anybody heard any more info on M$ getting caught putting in back doors to their web servers? Some info at: http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,2547770,00.html Found it to be a bit interesting... especially that M$ says they will "warn the largest web providers in the US" about the problem... in other words, they're saying "screw all the other countries, and screw the little and medium sized guys". Quite interesting... --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 14 22:24:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C8AA37B7C7 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 22:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Received: from morgaine.udel.edu (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA01470; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:24:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000415011943.00ad3180@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 01:20:55 -0400 To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" From: John Subject: Re: MS gets caught? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20000415011715.00c355d0@pop.mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ya... I found that out when a more complete release came out about 4PM eastern time... my apologies for jumping the gun. --john >Greets, > >That article is based on incomplete information. Typical alarmist media >drivel. > > >At 04/14/2000 02:29 PM Friday, you wrote: >>Anybody heard any more info on M$ getting caught putting in back doors to >>their web servers? Some info at: >> >>http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,2547770,00.html >> >>Found it to be a bit interesting... especially that M$ says they will >>"warn the largest web providers in the US" about the problem... in other >>words, they're saying "screw all the other countries, and screw the little >>and medium sized guys". >> >>Quite interesting... >> >>--John >> >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 0: 5:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (chicago.mooseriver.com [209.133.53.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612AE37B672 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA46482 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:05:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200004150705.AAA46482@agora.bafug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 6:17:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383AE37B81D for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 06:17:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA75856; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:16:54 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:16:54 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <8cq15m$1mbp$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >=20 > > Even English and German are useful to understanding French... >=20 > I don't find German all that helpful in this respect, but English > is a boon. Half or so of the English vocabulary is of Romance > origin, and that works very well the other way, too. Apart from > helping with French, it's very useful for Italian too, and probably > the other Romance languages as well, although I seem to have more > trouble figuring out written Spanish and even more with Portuguese. >=20 Well, I don't know about French, but knowing English and German is definately helpful when looking at websites in .nl 8-) > > Diareses have the same function in French as in English - to quote the > > Webster: "a mark {umlaut} placed over a vowel to to [sic] indicate > > that the vowel is pronounced in a separate syllable (as in na=EFve, > > Bront=EB)" >=20 > Tell that Alex "nobody needs Unicode" Belits, who seems to be under > the impression that ASCII is sufficient to write proper English. >=20 > --=20 > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >=20 >=20 >=20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >=20 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 15:30:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D03C37B55B for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:30:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id AAA04998 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:30:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA58076 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:05:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Date: 16 Apr 2000 00:05:17 +0200 Message-ID: <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <200004150441.VAA23755@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David E. O'Brien wrote: > Import the latest version of the 44BSD C-shell -- tcsh-6.09. I'm unhappy about this for a reason that hasn't even been mentioned in the monster thread that clogged -arch: Including tcsh in the base system means that people will use it. csh clearly isn't good enough for people to use, and when they looked around for a better interactive shell, many found their way to proper sh-ish shell like bash or ksh. Now they will stay with tcsh instead. And they will write (t)csh scripts. Importing tcsh gives new life to a shell family that should die, die, die. From a shell advocacy point of view, importing tcsh was the very worst thing that could happen. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 15:41:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F67937B514 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:41:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA11501; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:41:26 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:41:26 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416014126.A11471@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <200004150441.VAA23755@freefall.freebsd.org> <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 12:05:17AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 12:05:17AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > David E. O'Brien wrote: > > > Import the latest version of the 44BSD C-shell -- tcsh-6.09. > > I'm unhappy about this for a reason that hasn't even been mentioned > in the monster thread that clogged -arch: > > Including tcsh in the base system means that people will use it. > csh clearly isn't good enough for people to use, and when they > looked around for a better interactive shell, many found their way > to proper sh-ish shell like bash or ksh. Now they will stay with > tcsh instead. And they will write (t)csh scripts. Importing tcsh > gives new life to a shell family that should die, die, die. I support this completely. I have actually seen that happen many times. Way back when I was young and clueless I have found my way to sh-ish shells from the dark pits of tcsh, and what helped me most was that one system I used had neither tcsh installed, nor quots larged enough for me to compile it. IMHO tcsh(1) in the base system is a Very Bad Thing(TM). -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 15:49:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C0C37B739 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:49:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA03351; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:48:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > David E. O'Brien wrote: > > > Import the latest version of the 44BSD C-shell -- tcsh-6.09. > > >From a shell advocacy point of view, importing tcsh was the very > worst thing that could happen. > Agreed. So take it out and put bash in instead, and make bash the default user shell. It's the default user shell in ...yeah, linux, but also bsd/os 4.0. And we like all BSDs, right? Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 15:58:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firehouse.net (spook.networkoperations.com [209.42.203.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5209137B693 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:58:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abc@firehouse.net) Received: (qmail 11849 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Apr 2000 22:58:43 -0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:58:43 -0400 From: Alan Clegg To: Annelise Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000415185843.B8401@ecto.greenpeas.org> References: <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 03:48:15PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Out of the ether, Annelise Anderson spewed forth the following bitstream: > Agreed. So take it out and put bash in instead, and make bash the > default user shell. It's the default user shell in ...yeah, linux, > but also bsd/os 4.0. And we like all BSDs, right? As far as BSD/OS goes, this is not correct. vpn 5} grep root /etc/passwd root:*:0:0:System Administrator:/root:/bin/csh vpn 7} ls -al /bin/bash /bin/csh -rwxr-xr-x 1 root bin 353012 Nov 17 17:59 /bin/bash -r-xr-xr-x 1 bin bin 93956 Nov 16 17:30 /bin/csh AlanC {who does not use bash} -- \ Alan B. Clegg Just because I can \ abc@firehouse.net does not mean I will. \ \ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 16: 1:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 461A937B7B5; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA90553; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:01:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:01:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: John Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MS gets caught? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, John wrote: > Found it to be a bit interesting... especially that M$ says they will > "warn the largest web providers in the US" about the problem... in other > words, they're saying "screw all the other countries, and screw the little > and medium sized guys". Well, I hate to be fair to Microsoft, but how would you go about warning _all_ users of your product? They presumably have special support contracts with the aforementioned largest providers, so they can contact them proactively. They've already released a security advisory about it, which is the only thing they usually do for security problems - any M$ product user who is interested in security matters would already have seen it. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 16:31: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31D137B83A for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:31:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA03469; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:30:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Alan Clegg Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <20000415185843.B8401@ecto.greenpeas.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Alan Clegg wrote: > Out of the ether, Annelise Anderson spewed forth the following bitstream: > > > Agreed. So take it out and put bash in instead, and make bash the > > default user shell. It's the default user shell in ...yeah, linux, > > but also bsd/os 4.0. And we like all BSDs, right? > > As far as BSD/OS goes, this is not correct. > > vpn 5} grep root /etc/passwd > root:*:0:0:System Administrator:/root:/bin/csh > > vpn 7} ls -al /bin/bash /bin/csh > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root bin 353012 Nov 17 17:59 /bin/bash > -r-xr-xr-x 1 bin bin 93956 Nov 16 17:30 /bin/csh > You seem to be right about this--csh comes up as a default shell for a new user, although bash is available statically linked. I like zsh but I think it's too odd-ball for a default. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 17:39:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA5237B6FD; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:39:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA00149; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:39:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:39:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Mike Pritchard Cc: Warner Losh , Anatoly Vorobey , "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@Freebsd.org Subject: Re: PC Keyboard Scancodes In-Reply-To: <20000415004922.A71407@mppsystems.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Mike Pritchard wrote: > secure e-commerce -32 50 -32 -78 WTF does a "Secure E-Commerce" key do?? Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 17:42:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firehouse.net (spook.networkoperations.com [209.42.203.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7361937B7D2 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:42:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abc@firehouse.net) Received: (qmail 12794 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2000 00:42:38 -0000 Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:42:38 -0400 From: Alan Clegg To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@Freebsd.org Subject: Re: PC Keyboard Scancodes Message-ID: <20000415204238.E8401@ecto.greenpeas.org> References: <20000415004922.A71407@mppsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 05:39:15PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Out of the ether, Kris Kennaway spewed forth the following bitstream: > On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Mike Pritchard wrote: > > > secure e-commerce -32 50 -32 -78 > > WTF does a "Secure E-Commerce" key do?? Sends your credit card numbers to Redmond crypted against the string "Netscape engineers are weenies!" 8-) AlanC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 19: 5:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CCB337B7B5; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 19:05:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darius@guppy.dons.net.au) Received: from guppy.dons.net.au (guppy.dons.net.au [203.31.81.9]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA84802; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:34:51 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from darius@guppy.dons.net.au) Received: (from darius@localhost) by guppy.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03011; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:34:39 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from darius) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:34:38 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: PC Keyboard Scancodes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, "Daniel O'Connor" , Anatoly Vorobey , Warner Losh , Mike Pritchard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Apr-00 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Mike Pritchard wrote: >> secure e-commerce -32 50 -32 -78 > WTF does a "Secure E-Commerce" key do?? Sell more keyboards. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 19: 7:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailcore1.oh.voyager.net (mailcore1.oh.voyager.net [207.0.229.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFBC37B818 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 19:07:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mtackett@erinet.com) Received: from erinet.com (d42.as6.dytn.oh.voyager.net [207.90.118.170]) by mailcore1.oh.voyager.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA48433; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38F91FAF.E33E0D6E@erinet.com> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:04:31 -0400 From: Michael Tackett X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Annelise Anderson Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Annelise Anderson wrote: > On 16 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > David E. O'Brien wrote: > > > > > Import the latest version of the 44BSD C-shell -- tcsh-6.09. > > > > > >From a shell advocacy point of view, importing tcsh was the very > > worst thing that could happen. > > > Agreed. So take it out and put bash in instead, and make bash the > default user shell. It's the default user shell in ...yeah, linux, > but also bsd/os 4.0. And we like all BSDs, right? > > Annelise > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message First, hi. I'm new to the list. Second, what's wrong with tcsh? I use it, I like it. I understand that there are syntactical differences with the sh/ksh/bash and csh/tcsh that cause a problem, but I'm willing to tolerate that. One of the beauties of open source/free unices is choice in my opinion, so why lock people into one shell (or desktop or database or OS)? Also, I believe csh is the default for BSD/OS. Thanks, Michael Tackett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 19:20: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3955937B8D3 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 19:19:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA18057; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:19:31 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:19:31 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Michael Tackett Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416051931.A17950@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <38F91FAF.E33E0D6E@erinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38F91FAF.E33E0D6E@erinet.com>; from mtackett@erinet.com on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 10:04:31PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 10:04:31PM -0400, Michael Tackett wrote: > Second, what's wrong with tcsh? I use it, I like it. I understand that > there are syntactical differences with the sh/ksh/bash and csh/tcsh that > cause a problem, but I'm willing to tolerate that. One of the beauties > of open source/free unices is choice in my opinion, so why lock people > into one shell (or desktop or database or OS)? tcsh, like a number of other shells, has been available since forever by doing cd /usr/ports/shells/tcsh && make install. Importing it into the tree is a completely different matter and signals that it's a part of the base FreeBSD distribution. I simply don't see any significant reason for it to be there. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 20:30:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C71AF37B92E for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA69159; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:30:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:30:22 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416133021.P3179@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200004150441.VAA23755@freefall.freebsd.org> <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 12:05:17AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 12:05:17AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > David E. O'Brien wrote: > > > Import the latest version of the 44BSD C-shell -- tcsh-6.09. > > I'm unhappy about this for a reason that hasn't even been mentioned > in the monster thread that clogged -arch: (And who would have thought to look for it there anyway.) > Including tcsh in the base system means that people will use it. > csh clearly isn't good enough for people to use, and when they > looked around for a better interactive shell, many found their way > to proper sh-ish shell like bash or ksh. Now they will stay with > tcsh instead. And they will write (t)csh scripts. Importing tcsh > gives new life to a shell family that should die, die, die. > > From a shell advocacy point of view, importing tcsh was the very > worst thing that could happen. Absolutely! This kind of shell does not belong in the base system. There are many dangers, and everyone knows how bloody shell wars can become once someone's favourite is given the limelight. Either include them _all_ or Leave them all in ports where they belong! This looks like a poorly thought out hasty move based on some old timers' rigid preferences rather than on appropriateness as a base for the greatest range of user types. It might look like that to others, too. Take it out, shove it in some RedHat style FreeBSD if you like, but not in the base system. I like my minimal installs usable but unbloated. Our slightly enhanced version of sh achieves that. The people who have most difficulty changing their initial shell (due to shortage of both FreeBSD and UNIX experience) ask for the up arrow to give command history, and for commandline editing. Both of these can be achieved with the Bourne shell with a decent .profile (which we've had fixed just recently). The people who dummy-spit about needing tab completion generally have enough UNIX experience to go sort themselves out with their own familiar shell. Also, from a pedagogical perspective there are strong arguments for at least starting out with a Bourne style shell rather than teaching one style for scripts and another for interactive use. I'd go out of my way to avoid teaching beginners on a tcsh system. A well set up sh is perfectly adequate as a default shell. There's some good reasons for considering bash too, but I'd like some safe easy way to remove it from my more minimal installs. Just because we all agree that csh is bad, doesn't mean that any person's favourite full featured shell should be rushed into the base system. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 21:38:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D9337B535 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-123.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.123]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e3G4cPD20999; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:38:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA32648; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:37:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200004160437.XAA32648@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Sue Blake Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-reply-to: Message from Sue Blake of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:30:22 +1000." <20000416133021.P3179@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:37:41 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake writes: > Just because we all agree that csh is bad, doesn't mean that any We don't all agree that csh is bad. At the command line csh is well worth having for its history mechanism. While BSD sh has history, I've not seen the default sh on SGI or Sun systems with same features. When I was running a mixed shop new users got tcsh. Those who had other preferences knew to ask for a change if the system didn't allow them to change it for themselves. Most asked for help when they advanced to the point of writing scripts. Then the first lesson I gave them was, "first line of the script has to be, '#!/bin/sh' ...." No contest from me in that csh scripting is fatally flawed. Did tcsh replace csh, or was tcsh simply added? Big difference. I'm all in favor of replacing csh in the base system. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 15 22:38:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20FBF37B513 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:38:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA39038; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38F951D1.8062FDF2@gorean.org> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:38:25 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0409 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: <200004150441.VAA23755@freefall.freebsd.org> <8dap2t$1ome$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000416133021.P3179@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 12:05:17AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > David E. O'Brien wrote: > > > > > Import the latest version of the 44BSD C-shell -- tcsh-6.09. > > > > I'm unhappy about this for a reason that hasn't even been mentioned > > in the monster thread that clogged -arch: > > (And who would have thought to look for it there anyway.) Because that's what -arch is for. Big ticket decisions that affect the architecture of the base system. If you haven't read that thread, please check it out in the archives before commenting further. In any case, -chat is certainly NOT the place for this kind of discussion. Both because -chat is highly optional, and therefore decision makers could easily miss it, and because -chat's charter specifies, "Non-technical items." > Absolutely! This kind of shell does not belong in the base system. But it already was in the base system, but it was called csh. The version of csh we had was simply a very old version of "tcsh." All of this was covered already on -arch, along with most of the rest of the points you posted. Anyone who wants to continue this thread should do it on -arch, AFTER reading the archives. Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message