From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 00:08:38 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF6CE9CF14 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:08:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9E537B2E2 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:08:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id Np7ZeXsSGfiK5Np7ce3eS7; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:05:32 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eNpAX-0007wy-8V for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:08:33 +0000 Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209160730.GA3370@admin.sibptus.transneft.ru> <20171209195258.d4727a94.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 19:08:28 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171209195258.d4727a94.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfAKPo2OmaJWeSv0M26NJQF/ZUHICw+WSBc+0/ZUkeUPRgBd2Q0nksrkR+bbGUjuSWkhcz7wYeWh6a8fAKr7R1iVe8sbsg9vLH2nNV4R9Vs1BGLP+X30q QV5+GfC6Fhiwp8tgL8MS8saGVOrFE24/pdkYzhwR70Oyqp2Av+mrtpYFWZplFxHHyhXh1zT+tHEV4f4IE+OstB1tw8i3UmgQmCk= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:08:38 -0000 On 12/9/2017 1:52 PM, Polytropon wrote: > On Sat, 9 Dec 2017 23:07:30 +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote: >> Carmel NY wrote: >>> Just my own opinion; however, I do not consider synth, unlike poudriere, to be bloated. >> I don't even consider poudriere bloated. It is neat, does not require >> weird dependencies or GUI libs, stores its configuration in text >> files, uses the standard ports and jail infrastructure. Why would >> anyone call it bloated? > Not exactly bloated, but it could be considered "overhead" > just to build one or two ports. However, Poudriere is not > intended as a replacement for portmaster or portmanager, > that's important to keep in mind. And for the specific > case I mentioned, local repositories and restricted lists > are the way to go. If even that's too much, the classic > "make install" and "pkg lock" will probably be okay. > Which is what synth is good for.  I am not going to get into the contraversy surrounding synth. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 01:01:56 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CD3E9E135 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:01:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FE037C9A1 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:01:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id Nq02eGnBTdX1SNq04eAl9L; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:01:49 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eNq01-0007yp-To for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:01:45 +0000 Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209142711.d5bd91b7.freebsd@edvax.de> <4b109558-8422-a62a-9c45-748e03efbfba@columbus.rr.com> <20171209202321.b9919fc3.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 20:01:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171209202321.b9919fc3.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDD4iIoFF3J37+RzoxczQdZ7xmFNMGU11gDL4ctkM5RjgF116vfWn2DkQxhq5FLeGr6TjYeU4ysbXn/DkWd2GzA7X9Juv1sLNHktxAm6VIGVquN/G7IM bmXKTrL1N6xmo1sfCdik2Pxl165f/ZMmT78th5lfAF+YrydWOvMq+VXwsvZ78Hca2MbPjWA292W9ISCWBH2ZlTtmBiGESFdrs0Y= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:01:56 -0000 On 12/9/2017 2:23 PM, Polytropon wrote: > Please allow me a few comments regarding your rant (which has > some valid point, but in my opinion illustrates a little lack > of understanding of how some things on FreeBSD work): > >> They don't like to be called out or have some one be critcal of the >> "new" flavor system or any "new" thing that comes down the pike. It has >> caused a butt load of issues with my systems here. > In that case, "they" would have kicked me more than once for > expressing that I don't like the sc -> vt transition (which, > as I might mention again, is one of the biggest show stoppers, > because vt isn't a fully working replacement of sc, and it > can do only a fraction of what sc could, and even that only > at bad quality, and it's hardly documented). Now let's see > what happens. :-) > > > >> Any way I have started to update my scratch built linux systems, because >> this 5 year trial of FreeBSD has just been fraught with an unbelievable >> work load just to make it function. > THis is in fact a big deal - but usually this list is very > helpful if you're willing to "do your homework". > Helpful as in what I asked how do you boot yo a zfs raid array?  The answer but using the BIOS menu to boot it.  Thjat is just not acceptable. Asked how well does grub2 work and how does one install it. answer crikets.  searchging the web produces info from 2009 and earlier, that dog don't hunt. > >> Some of the issues: >> >> Lack of direction. >> >> No transactions in pkg. One "bad" package and your system doesn't boot, >> so dig out the USB drive > That exactly is the situation on Linux, where even the kernel > is just a package. FreeBSD has a strong barrier between the > operating system and 3rd party applications (that come from > the ports collection). Even with damaged ports (or with _no_ > ports), the system will still boot. Sure, certain additional > services might not be started, but that's not a problem for > the OS. In worst case, /usr/local is removed altogether, its > structure rebuilt from the /etc/mtree/ file, pkg gets boot- > strapped - and you're ready to install new ports cleanly. > The OS does not care. Not really I have built scratch built linux versions for 10 years and have less than 10% of the problems I have had with FreeBSD. > > However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will > handle this. As you might have read, pkg will be used for > installing and upgrading OS files in the future, so there > will not be the big difference "freebsd-update" and "pkg > update" / "pkg upgrade". I suspect it will kill systems with a ge=reat deal of regulaity > > >> source head in-stability, or you could say base instability. > Only tested and verified changes will be in RELEASE. Then > there is STABLE, which only contains additional components > that will be in the next RELEASE. From here, security patches > will be "extracted", so they can be applied to RELEASE. And > finally, there's CURRENT or HEAD. This is where development > takes place. A feature might be added, and the build from > source breaks. A few hours later, ir builds again, but the > result makes the system crash upon reboot. Next day, the > added feature is entirely gone. This is fully acceptable > for the HEAD branch. I have used all of the different base repos,  none of them are what I would call stable.  I can not count on a release or version to work out of the box,  some did most did not or only with a struggle. > > Common consensus is to use RELEASE and the security patches. > This can be done with freebsd-update easily. For those who > wish to experiment with bleeding-edge software, STABLE is > the right choice, but it requires building from source. > And those who are applying experimental (!) changes, for > example kernel and OS developers, or testers, use HEAD, > fully aware of what I mentioned before. I've heard that bedtime story all too many times. > > >> ports in-stability... I was using Head then I was told to use quarterly >> and then told that it does not receive security updates, well not all >> and not on a regular basis. Then I was told to use head WTF? > You are mixing ports and OS. The ports tree (and the > corresponding repository) can be reset at RELEASE, you > can choose a quarterly updated branch (often used in > combination with a RELEASE-pX system), or you can keep > your ports tree as current as possible. You can use tools > like portsnap (snapshots) or svn (tracking), or just use > the ports tree that came with your RELEASE install - it > depends on what kind of software (versions) you intend to > run. Always (!) choose your tools depending on the task. > There is no "one size fits all egg-laying wool-milk-sow". ;-) > I mixed no ports,  you see I created meta-ports to install a standard set of packages and when changing port repos removed all the packages and rm -rf /usr/local, then built and installed the meta-port package. > >> Hell most people here don't even know why you should be building in a >> clean room and you should build packages as a user not as root. > Nothing wrong with building packages as root (if you use > the /usr/ports tree manually). For _installing_ packages, > you'll need root permissions anyway, or do you wish Hinz & Kunz > to be able to install arbitrary software on your system, with > an ugly surprise for you later? ;-) There is every thing wrong with building packages as root.  On my scratch built systems you build all the packages as a user.  You only need to run the package manager as root to install them as any sane admin should know. > > >> You >> should not even use root even when you do the make install. Tried to >> tell them why, all I got was "shut up you know nothing". > Keep in mind that FreeBSD is (among others) a multi-user system, > and that's why even on a PC you have a regular user and a root > user. The non-root user can damaga his own $HOME as he likes, > but should he be allowed to damage the whole system? Maybe for > other users to suffer? No, that's the wrong approach. Linux is not multi user?  I beg to differ > On Linux, "wget http://app.example.com | sudo bash" has become > quite common. Do you think this is a good idea? Please read the > command line, more than once, and look at each individual part. > You'll find at least 5 things that are wrong... ;-) > > You _can_ install software locally (i. e., local to your user > account), this is possible, but it often creates more problems > than it solves. However, if you know what you're doing, there > is nothing wrong with it. > This has nothing to do with installing software to your home directory. You have proved my point that FreeBSD users/admins etc do not understand at all what I am trying to say. Hell they won't even attempt to have a conversion about it let alone a thought. > >> no packaged base, the packaged base just isn't usable, and no one wants >> to listen to alternatives. > This is something still in development (and with potential of > improvement). If implemented in a reliable and secure manner, > it will probably be a positive thing. But only time will tell. > Well it WAS promised for release 11.0.  Isn't 11.0 on EOL?  The whole process that is currently being used to package base in not sound.  Again no one wanted to listen to different ways to go about packaging base.  I was going to do that but the amount of work for me to do that on my own was greater than if I just go back to my scratch built systems..  Which would YOU do? >> After trying packaged base no one could tell >> me how to go back to the "old" method of updating base. > You also cannot go back from pkg-based ports to the old way, > because it's not supported anymore, the build environments > do not exist anymore, and the old ways don't work anymore. > > But in your specific problem, downloading the source (with > a RELEASE version preferred), from the distribution tarball > or via svn, then building from source (as explained in the > comment header of /usr/src/Makefile), should work. > I did source upgrades.  Here then is a good example of what hacks me off.  People think they know what some one else was doing and then go about telling them how they are doing everything wrong when it has not even been established what the process or environment is. > >> Hell no one >> knew how to remove the base package entries in the pkg database. > The database is just a database, so a properly formed query > should fix this. (I have never tried that, but basically, it > should work.) > It works, trust me I have done that.  You need to hunt and peck a little but it is not difficult. > >> I >> found a way and it was trival. I have not updated base since 11.0 p10 >> as I am not up for fixing any breakage if it would occur. > If I remember correctly, 11.0 doesn't use pkg-base as a default. > Well it was implied that that was to be the future starting with 11.0 > >> Lack of ability to use modern graphics cards on the "desktop", it seems >> to have taken a back seat to pkg development. > Nonsense. Even though you have to think before you buy, there are > lots of modern graphics cards that work well on FreeBSD. And if > you don't have a problem using nVidia's binary drivers, they > usually work quite nicely and enable you a plethora of 3D stuff. > And pkg has nothing to do with it, as those binary drivers are > distributed binarily, so nothing can be ported. :-) > Not nonsense look here https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics. It only works with Radeon HD 7660 or earlier.  Radeon HD 7700 and later nope. Nvidia only to GTX 960. > >> Regular breakage when I use synth, that is just not acceptable. > I'm not using it, so no idea... > > > >> Can not boot ZFS raid system from a boot loader, I have to hit the "F8" >> key and select a drive to boot. No one seem to know if grub2 would work. > That would be worth testing. > Not by me,  I am leaving remember,  you folks loss...... > >> when I started using freebsd ver 10.1 I was told just wait for rev 11 >> and package base will be there.....Really? > No. :-) > Yes it was look it up,  that was all the rage for going to 11.0 >> Now out of the blue sendmail >> is going to bite the dust in version 13, if that is really true. Given >> the lack of finishing things I have my doubts. > Basic system functionality breaking is definitely worth creating > a bug report. In case you cannot isolate the problem, the developers > will be helpful and ask for specific outputs. > Bug report Hell the developers are the ones removing all support for base in 13.0.  And building it 12.0 without but leaving the "Hooks" >> The move from gcc to clang does not appear to me to have been completed. >> BTW what is wrong with GCC, works for me. > It is primarily a licensing _and_ modularity issue. Of course > you can use gcc _and_ clang on the same system. Building certain > ports requires gcc, and sometimes requires a _specific_ gcc > version. Nothing wrong here. Except there are ports the will not build with GCC that use to. > > >> The move off of GNU software in base was to have been completed and has >> not been. > It probably isn't still completed, and there is also softeware > from other licensing realms. Just check /usr/src/contrib to find > out what's there. > Been there done that.  I was not the one saying that base was going to have no GNU software there.  Your developers said that. > >> I was looking for a "system" to use in my entire organization and though >> freebsd would work accross the different archs. I was completely wrong. > That might depend on your organization. Other places are happy > FreeBSD-only installations. > > > >> If one is going to be doing major changes how about doing them one at a >> time and actually finishing them. > I wish they had been doing this with sc -> vt, but no... you want > X _and_ text mode? NO SOUP FOR YOU! ;-) > Exactly my point.  When you work for a mega corp (billions of dollars) you learn how to roll things out where they work 95% of the time.  Yes you have things happen,  FreeBSD seems to make a mess every time something is rolled out.  See the difference? > >> So you see I see freebsd as a nightmare on elm street, so I need to >> return to something stable and something that makes sense. >> Incapatibilies plays a part too. >> >> Which for me will be my own "scratch built distro". > Nothing wrong with that. I've been using "UNIX-like" distros > like Slackware and Gentoo as well as "preconfigured" distros > of and on, as well as "Linux from scratch". Experience and > knowledge can be obtained that way. But every time I tried > something that should be stable, fast, reliable, predictable, > secure and easy to use in production, I always cam back to > using FreeBSD. - Needless to say, this is my very individual > opinion and experience, and I don't claim it will (or can) > be the same for everyone everywhere at every time. :-) Well rolling out systems can be as easy as this. Boot USB drive with os. partition drive(s) install file systems install base package - with boot loader install function package     like:     server-dhcp     server-mail     server-name     server-ftp     server-file     desktop-kde     desktop-gnome     desk-lumina just a few of my "meta" installation packages tickle a few config files and your done.  One could even install multiple "function meta packages on a single machine. This is how I install FreeBSD but with the base package missing. But I am told I am a rank amature and know nothing of value. FreeBSD is harder to do this way because of non-packed base and boot loader issues.  Also with a broken getent makes it harder to programmically install user into the system. It is also how I install my scratch built systems. This works on my scratch built systems no matter the disk configuration,  RAID, LVM, MBR or GPT.  it don't matter From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 01:03:37 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29704E9E2E5 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:03:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.225]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E45787CC5A for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:03:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id Nq1keGsr5dX1SNq1neAlzM; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:03:35 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eNq1k-0007z1-EC for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:03:32 +0000 Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209160730.GA3370@admin.sibptus.transneft.ru> <20171209195258.d4727a94.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: <97acd30b-48ce-ef0e-4326-0d78e1a10eb2@columbus.rr.com> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 20:03:27 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCpf/pVF5EbTMu7NaAPI7wvZIDjpHQqxDT3o+xmGGyM9MX3EQkYtVGMI75SIwL0ghE3ZABcXXUWK6iK7yNSGC2x1w5p5xrU4tJivSKaqoFuJpDmYi1cP /vhMyl85lw2fkVAd75awDA5nADe1vz7+67plazZqOo8tJVI4Km0X5nRsIzGUQKaNOi1YvFlrxv9ypf69V6ZNkuj/GcpEQP4kRqU= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:03:37 -0000 On 12/9/2017 2:41 PM, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> Except for the name, I don't dislike anything specific about >> Poudriere. ;-) >> > How do you pronounce it anyways? It is french for "Bend over here it comes" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 01:04:55 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6907E9E3C9 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:04:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta03.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FE867CD7A for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:04:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id Nq4NeRRtOmG8pNq4PeUDWu; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:06:17 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eNq31-0007zE-Ca; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:04:51 +0000 Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here To: Outback Dingo Cc: Aryeh Friedman , FreeBSD Mailing List References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 20:04:46 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfN8riE50QY+6v5DwZArgbF90bt+ZUjVrDsv9S9WZMqSjj/BZL+GzOCAiLtPRhDQ3RPyeDFV1p38af71VjY/3/GV4f/c5Q+SmQk/te6D572nc1kzRYg0F ekJsADj5MxdC5pPfMspzyIQH1e4wKmkY606kz6Ha+CCtsr2OB0YUqYe1RwS++NDG0Wggy8krOwkeE2kfnda9EnMMD3FssFA50frsLjfbQTZWAnLuXiVxEnjA 32c06iJIaiQIRX0F5BEDmvIbyBZdoUThChp4SllCZrc= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:04:55 -0000 On 12/9/2017 2:49 PM, Outback Dingo wrote: > On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Baho Utot wrote: >> >> On 12/09/17 10:12, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:20 AM, Baho Utot >> > wrote: >>> >>> The writing is on the wall. >>> >>> Looks like I am no longer welcome around here >>> >>> >>> If you are referring to being banned from -ports@ I think someone just had >>> a knee jerk reaction and banned any "trouble maker" (anyone who doesn't >>> *LOVE* flavors and it forcing you to use something bloated like synth and/or >>> poudiere). Even though I only posted there twice in the last year >>> something I said most of ticked the same person off because I was also >>> banned for what appears to me no rational reason. >>> -- >>> Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org >> >> It is all good. I am returning to a sane world of building my own scratch >> built linux system, which is what I did before coming to freebsd. I really >> have an issue with we'll are doing this our way and you can just sit down >> and shut up. >> >> Anyway I'll be on my on built system by january, freebsd loss I expect. > I could tell you a story of a similar situation 13 years ago.... IM STILL HERE. > Do us and yourself a favor, let you work speak for itself.... > Arguments and the like, or other seemingly bashed activities, Im sure > its happened > to everyone of us at some point and time. Even Im a very opinionated person. > It doesnt mean the work you have done is useless to the community or > that you should pull out. > > Well my work or advise is not wanted here.  GitHub seems to be ok with it though From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 01:19:59 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD204E9E904 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:19:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jd1008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x234.google.com (mail-io0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E6F67D237 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:19:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jd1008@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io0-x234.google.com with SMTP id v186so6142762iod.7 for ; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 17:19:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Sh/KQMAkxjEhR6ntx1WaAiLSFfK3K5yk2JwGsEjasvY=; b=SBZHxzsWeH7M491jIJoFwqNNK8kqy7qPddeSXJGaZWT873kR4KCQK/atyZDmtb0hC/ vucsCAkvJ+7QLGgjODa16Vapj6v1ZO/PoQUKxPoiPoRwrCS6yfldrxYwaEGYQnAnVd9e uD8XNdmI1Ql+FSi7ZiuRE5OlliSn585x+zER0g5or6+JyghsEP7AAaB0ohWcr7klMttE HX7SH59J2kxsjxfOMqJUYM/F6x2X3AExV51XnzilgTjuWhsgwupPkBfyhH0hN5kVJTbL Yh9I+gQHvr9dHA8oFi5ApcwHsc5gORJUuuVeyKCf0xStyCW57owK/AIFnLZlo4e5Eks/ tWNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Sh/KQMAkxjEhR6ntx1WaAiLSFfK3K5yk2JwGsEjasvY=; b=QrYZFAu1w5yv1oBobTa7ysE/c6QhjKvS9ErA5ajAPc+vwE/maVaGN2Z13bssp9nXq3 /C3YyxRpcoqm95KOw3T8k47MSaoLRe/3BgfMk84IJzzaTcuemk1HRJtUo9I4cvV7kFpe xJMmlwKOTa4Cnp61gFi3km9gjw//t4KAmLbMYT86QjM7uKbzBHijrSTOR3427jHRhn21 NFyHsEnHiszQz4BKxSQeZgwvnzBbm14p0aM3O8fArTMpAjEhWlOKNGw2lgJDNtgoytpR Aj4IFRxfSAdgBB44Sqbi+4jmn50BME44Nv4gisVhRrXbuNgOlKLSVU5del2Z9FL3GPva sIdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5yD94NqspoUruL1fEge2XI9rZejnsuD6knXtM4pu6U7P0a9Xbl p2jxUlAJwKGHKvMVTpJ6lmajbw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZcVR1k6rIX0xczlhgkP86yyhr3MleIZqlVHeZtXrUpzOgt23UrdLQXI4T/cT236xkikncyKA== X-Received: by 10.107.138.135 with SMTP id c7mr50308528ioj.91.1512868798162; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 17:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (50-243-4-3-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.243.4.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q6sm2491514ita.38.2017.12.09.17.19.57 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Dec 2017 17:19:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5A2C8BF3.4040607@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 18:20:51 -0700 From: JD User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209142711.d5bd91b7.freebsd@edvax.de> <4b109558-8422-a62a-9c45-748e03efbfba@columbus.rr.com> <20171209202321.b9919fc3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:19:59 -0000 Hi Baho, I have used FreeBSD for many years. It is true that it needs a lot of know-how, not all of which is in the documentation, especially your problem with booting a FreeBSD on a ZFS Raid Array. If BIOS is ignorant of the presence of a ZFS Raid array as a "BIOS DISK", then you will have to boot it indirectly - an example of which is to tell bios to boot from a disk which has grub which in turn has knowledge of zfs raid array, and has a menu of bootable OS'es, one of which would be the ZFS Raid Array. This is, for example, how we work work multi-boot systems. Am sorry for the trouble you are having. FreeBSD Releases are STABLE insofar as the amount of testing done with most common configurations. Perhaps testing needs to be more rigorous to include fringe areas as what you were trying to accomplish. But that would really delay release dates considerably. Regards, JD On 12/09/2017 06:01 PM, Baho Utot wrote: > On 12/9/2017 2:23 PM, Polytropon wrote: >> Please allow me a few comments regarding your rant (which has >> some valid point, but in my opinion illustrates a little lack >> of understanding of how some things on FreeBSD work): >> >>> They don't like to be called out or have some one be critcal of the >>> "new" flavor system or any "new" thing that comes down the pike. It has >>> caused a butt load of issues with my systems here. >> In that case, "they" would have kicked me more than once for >> expressing that I don't like the sc -> vt transition (which, >> as I might mention again, is one of the biggest show stoppers, >> because vt isn't a fully working replacement of sc, and it >> can do only a fraction of what sc could, and even that only >> at bad quality, and it's hardly documented). Now let's see >> what happens. :-) >> >> >> >>> Any way I have started to update my scratch built linux systems, >>> because >>> this 5 year trial of FreeBSD has just been fraught with an unbelievable >>> work load just to make it function. >> THis is in fact a big deal - but usually this list is very >> helpful if you're willing to "do your homework". >> > Helpful as in what I asked how do you boot yo a zfs raid array? The > answer but using the BIOS menu to boot it. Thjat is just not acceptable. > > Asked how well does grub2 work and how does one install it. answer > crikets. searchging the web produces info from 2009 and earlier, that > dog don't hunt. > >> >>> Some of the issues: >>> >>> Lack of direction. >>> >>> No transactions in pkg. One "bad" package and your system doesn't >>> boot, >>> so dig out the USB drive >> That exactly is the situation on Linux, where even the kernel >> is just a package. FreeBSD has a strong barrier between the >> operating system and 3rd party applications (that come from >> the ports collection). Even with damaged ports (or with _no_ >> ports), the system will still boot. Sure, certain additional >> services might not be started, but that's not a problem for >> the OS. In worst case, /usr/local is removed altogether, its >> structure rebuilt from the /etc/mtree/ file, pkg gets boot- >> strapped - and you're ready to install new ports cleanly. >> The OS does not care. > Not really I have built scratch built linux versions for 10 years and > have less than 10% of the problems I have had with FreeBSD. > > >> >> However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will >> handle this. As you might have read, pkg will be used for >> installing and upgrading OS files in the future, so there >> will not be the big difference "freebsd-update" and "pkg >> update" / "pkg upgrade". > > I suspect it will kill systems with a ge=reat deal of regulaity > >> >> >>> source head in-stability, or you could say base instability. >> Only tested and verified changes will be in RELEASE. Then >> there is STABLE, which only contains additional components >> that will be in the next RELEASE. From here, security patches >> will be "extracted", so they can be applied to RELEASE. And >> finally, there's CURRENT or HEAD. This is where development >> takes place. A feature might be added, and the build from >> source breaks. A few hours later, ir builds again, but the >> result makes the system crash upon reboot. Next day, the >> added feature is entirely gone. This is fully acceptable >> for the HEAD branch. > > I have used all of the different base repos, none of them are what I > would call stable. I can not count on a release or version to work > out of the box, some did most did not or only with a struggle. > > >> >> Common consensus is to use RELEASE and the security patches. >> This can be done with freebsd-update easily. For those who >> wish to experiment with bleeding-edge software, STABLE is >> the right choice, but it requires building from source. >> And those who are applying experimental (!) changes, for >> example kernel and OS developers, or testers, use HEAD, >> fully aware of what I mentioned before. > > I've heard that bedtime story all too many times. > > >> >> >>> ports in-stability... I was using Head then I was told to use quarterly >>> and then told that it does not receive security updates, well not all >>> and not on a regular basis. Then I was told to use head WTF? >> You are mixing ports and OS. The ports tree (and the >> corresponding repository) can be reset at RELEASE, you >> can choose a quarterly updated branch (often used in >> combination with a RELEASE-pX system), or you can keep >> your ports tree as current as possible. You can use tools >> like portsnap (snapshots) or svn (tracking), or just use >> the ports tree that came with your RELEASE install - it >> depends on what kind of software (versions) you intend to >> run. Always (!) choose your tools depending on the task. >> There is no "one size fits all egg-laying wool-milk-sow". ;-) >> > I mixed no ports, you see I created meta-ports to install a standard > set of packages and when changing port repos removed all the packages > and rm -rf /usr/local, then built and installed the meta-port package. > >> >>> Hell most people here don't even know why you should be building in a >>> clean room and you should build packages as a user not as root. >> Nothing wrong with building packages as root (if you use >> the /usr/ports tree manually). For _installing_ packages, >> you'll need root permissions anyway, or do you wish Hinz & Kunz >> to be able to install arbitrary software on your system, with >> an ugly surprise for you later? ;-) > > There is every thing wrong with building packages as root. On my > scratch built systems you build all the packages as a user. You only > need to run the package manager as root to install them as any sane > admin should know. > > >> >> >>> You >>> should not even use root even when you do the make install. Tried to >>> tell them why, all I got was "shut up you know nothing". >> Keep in mind that FreeBSD is (among others) a multi-user system, >> and that's why even on a PC you have a regular user and a root >> user. The non-root user can damaga his own $HOME as he likes, >> but should he be allowed to damage the whole system? Maybe for >> other users to suffer? No, that's the wrong approach. > > Linux is not multi user? I beg to differ > >> On Linux, "wget http://app.example.com | sudo bash" has become >> quite common. Do you think this is a good idea? Please read the >> command line, more than once, and look at each individual part. >> You'll find at least 5 things that are wrong... ;-) >> >> You _can_ install software locally (i. e., local to your user >> account), this is possible, but it often creates more problems >> than it solves. However, if you know what you're doing, there >> is nothing wrong with it. >> > > This has nothing to do with installing software to your home directory. > > You have proved my point that FreeBSD users/admins etc do not > understand at all what I am trying to say. > Hell they won't even attempt to have a conversion about it let alone a > thought. > >> >>> no packaged base, the packaged base just isn't usable, and no one wants >>> to listen to alternatives. >> This is something still in development (and with potential of >> improvement). If implemented in a reliable and secure manner, >> it will probably be a positive thing. But only time will tell. >> > > Well it WAS promised for release 11.0. Isn't 11.0 on EOL? The whole > process that is currently being used to package base in not sound. > Again no one wanted to listen to different ways to go about packaging > base. I was going to do that but the amount of work for me to do that > on my own was greater than if I just go back to my scratch built > systems.. Which would YOU do? > >>> After trying packaged base no one could tell >>> me how to go back to the "old" method of updating base. >> You also cannot go back from pkg-based ports to the old way, >> because it's not supported anymore, the build environments >> do not exist anymore, and the old ways don't work anymore. >> >> But in your specific problem, downloading the source (with >> a RELEASE version preferred), from the distribution tarball >> or via svn, then building from source (as explained in the >> comment header of /usr/src/Makefile), should work. >> > I did source upgrades. Here then is a good example of what hacks me > off. People think they know what some one else was doing and then go > about telling them how they are doing everything wrong when it has not > even been established what the process or environment is. > > >> >>> Hell no one >>> knew how to remove the base package entries in the pkg database. >> The database is just a database, so a properly formed query >> should fix this. (I have never tried that, but basically, it >> should work.) >> > > It works, trust me I have done that. You need to hunt and peck a > little but it is not difficult. > >> >>> I >>> found a way and it was trival. I have not updated base since 11.0 p10 >>> as I am not up for fixing any breakage if it would occur. >> If I remember correctly, 11.0 doesn't use pkg-base as a default. >> > Well it was implied that that was to be the future starting with 11.0 > > >> >>> Lack of ability to use modern graphics cards on the "desktop", it >>> seems >>> to have taken a back seat to pkg development. >> Nonsense. Even though you have to think before you buy, there are >> lots of modern graphics cards that work well on FreeBSD. And if >> you don't have a problem using nVidia's binary drivers, they >> usually work quite nicely and enable you a plethora of 3D stuff. >> And pkg has nothing to do with it, as those binary drivers are >> distributed binarily, so nothing can be ported. :-) >> > > Not nonsense look here https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics. > > It only works with Radeon HD 7660 or earlier. Radeon HD 7700 and > later nope. > Nvidia only to GTX 960. > > >> >>> Regular breakage when I use synth, that is just not acceptable. >> I'm not using it, so no idea... >> >> >> >>> Can not boot ZFS raid system from a boot loader, I have to hit the "F8" >>> key and select a drive to boot. No one seem to know if grub2 would >>> work. >> That would be worth testing. >> > > Not by me, I am leaving remember, you folks loss...... > > >> >>> when I started using freebsd ver 10.1 I was told just wait for rev 11 >>> and package base will be there.....Really? >> No. :-) >> > > Yes it was look it up, that was all the rage for going to 11.0 > > >>> Now out of the blue sendmail >>> is going to bite the dust in version 13, if that is really true. Given >>> the lack of finishing things I have my doubts. >> Basic system functionality breaking is definitely worth creating >> a bug report. In case you cannot isolate the problem, the developers >> will be helpful and ask for specific outputs. >> > > Bug report Hell the developers are the ones removing all support for > base in 13.0. And building it 12.0 without but leaving the "Hooks" > >>> The move from gcc to clang does not appear to me to have been >>> completed. >>> BTW what is wrong with GCC, works for me. >> It is primarily a licensing _and_ modularity issue. Of course >> you can use gcc _and_ clang on the same system. Building certain >> ports requires gcc, and sometimes requires a _specific_ gcc >> version. Nothing wrong here. > > Except there are ports the will not build with GCC that use to. > > >> >> >>> The move off of GNU software in base was to have been completed and has >>> not been. >> It probably isn't still completed, and there is also softeware >> from other licensing realms. Just check /usr/src/contrib to find >> out what's there. >> > > Been there done that. I was not the one saying that base was going to > have no GNU software there. Your developers said that. > >> >>> I was looking for a "system" to use in my entire organization and >>> though >>> freebsd would work accross the different archs. I was completely >>> wrong. >> That might depend on your organization. Other places are happy >> FreeBSD-only installations. >> >> >> >>> If one is going to be doing major changes how about doing them one at a >>> time and actually finishing them. >> I wish they had been doing this with sc -> vt, but no... you want >> X _and_ text mode? NO SOUP FOR YOU! ;-) >> > > Exactly my point. When you work for a mega corp (billions of dollars) > you learn how to roll things out where they work 95% of the time. Yes > you have things happen, FreeBSD seems to make a mess every time > something is rolled out. See the difference? > >> >>> So you see I see freebsd as a nightmare on elm street, so I need to >>> return to something stable and something that makes sense. >>> Incapatibilies plays a part too. >>> >>> Which for me will be my own "scratch built distro". >> Nothing wrong with that. I've been using "UNIX-like" distros >> like Slackware and Gentoo as well as "preconfigured" distros >> of and on, as well as "Linux from scratch". Experience and >> knowledge can be obtained that way. But every time I tried >> something that should be stable, fast, reliable, predictable, >> secure and easy to use in production, I always cam back to >> using FreeBSD. - Needless to say, this is my very individual >> opinion and experience, and I don't claim it will (or can) >> be the same for everyone everywhere at every time. :-) > > Well rolling out systems can be as easy as this. > > Boot USB drive with os. > partition drive(s) > install file systems > install base package - with boot loader > install function package > like: > server-dhcp > server-mail > server-name > server-ftp > server-file > desktop-kde > desktop-gnome > desk-lumina > > just a few of my "meta" installation packages > > tickle a few config files and your done. One could even install > multiple "function meta packages on a single machine. > > This is how I install FreeBSD but with the base package missing. > But I am told I am a rank amature and know nothing of value. > > FreeBSD is harder to do this way because of non-packed base and boot > loader issues. Also with a broken getent makes it harder to > programmically install user into the system. > > It is also how I install my scratch built systems. > This works on my scratch built systems no matter the disk > configuration, RAID, LVM, MBR or GPT. it don't matter > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 01:44:11 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375F1E9F380 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:44:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg0-x235.google.com (mail-pg0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DAF77DE22 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:44:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pg0-x235.google.com with SMTP id o2so8827597pgc.8 for ; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 17:44:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6ebeHGQWSimm8HPKJ5D6lILMR38KAXxe4458jqDHbx0=; b=EHMZyDzioKgJUDqATJbIua2488BbofrxDLYm1h8CywX5fs94FlqJFB7neOd3RTLeMW MFgFp0TI9ywFP0Vqqcfqj7WquTPfkWF0ATVId9ldbW1NBpfGfd8RSC4LytgzapHh/dkQ fHgUlx+UX/NTjPfWMlqGBljH9gQHVaX2UWDdl3YHgVZSPnAz8Sit/TOxPfUNwPIdHFRG 0/vE6qkHXka5Nf0BHQAlzCHL0DzJRyO5Tr3jmZvv09ki3K8GAY493puJdoMTDE6KBCbm KVReGNZ586KPc44PXmMGTiu+WsnukhEcv+7yc1JYvgnBkOq9DoRfEhLZuSchPR9pNfKg sMlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6ebeHGQWSimm8HPKJ5D6lILMR38KAXxe4458jqDHbx0=; b=R7I1/eB7QUBaBBHL9Fprk3QY3TGFQgZ6L/J1qyTeJaZmLDGI3uviIRyVDzVY4ULygM svpDEJgZhr4SqwWXMTRg2VN/fxzk20x39M1jhK/gJbyYkLBjLgCH0YYNgF4ODw8hkDTm oZKE3ieTH2KZaI27N+9F3vjgNxf0LzFd8oVDwPDGGGhFs7upQ4ybZOjRMYWsK87gtIZ+ kCUmB/zMvi7E+oSZIXgC9+Md3PQeZ1Ln24PdyJRxvwX7UGS6zk1YOJVaqbSmFSEhq7zd NYAaSCvHsAh/WXm8jzMUw9kmz5/o36V8pX+QjoxQryjtE5z59GYIDGVbBcXNZYWnG+F3 rQow== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX6KyP3ekuSsLZMSbgeMBtgqY2Gza001Y5mhd2V2x+CX+UUA47Ux KFaMO49nkFgrrvYnVr58rdg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMa057OS1ZUlP/Ls5wZhYx3h/lJyiyL0/1rfIEXbA8s3IPDV65gpeU9JKxjAGSraTSDR6xVUbQ== X-Received: by 10.99.124.9 with SMTP id x9mr34190149pgc.68.1512870250240; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 17:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.144] ([120.29.100.44]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id a67sm17470466pgc.5.2017.12.09.17.44.08 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Dec 2017 17:44:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5A2C9169.5010509@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 09:44:09 +0800 From: Ernie Luzar User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve O'Hara-Smith CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: openvpn & win10 vpn References: <5A290AFD.1080902@gmail.com> <20171207131353.5bdeb3276b704f35e2a103bc@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20171207131353.5bdeb3276b704f35e2a103bc@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:44:11 -0000 > >> Secure Connection Failed >> >> The connection to www.hulu.com was interrupted while the page was >> loading. > > That doesn't sound like a VPN problem - not sure what it is though. > Is it possible for a url receiving packets that passed through a vpn to determine that fact? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 02:45:11 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1CCEA20EE for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 02:45:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbeich@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CCFD803C2; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 02:45:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbeich@freebsd.org) Received: by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 1354) id 5B27515F18; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 02:45:10 +0000 (UTC) From: Jan Beich To: Shane Ambler Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:45:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> (Shane Ambler's message of "Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:23:27 +1030") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 02:45:11 -0000 Shane Ambler writes: > On 04/12/2017 21:19, galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote: > >> >> On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote: >>> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me >>> the real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under >> >> Arrogance would be my guess. > > The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we should be > able to run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps. Modern CUDA toolkit is 64bit but runtime only works on 32bit (bug 206711). Building as -m32 is probably still possible but may not fit all workloads nor run as fast. > >>> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting >>> supported shortly? >> >> Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just >> not to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and >> unwillingness to disclose details of their hardware was always much >> worse than that of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...). >> >> This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations. > > I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev > at one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any technical > reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into it. > Still hasn't helped any. Just like Vulkan, just like KMS, just like encoding/capture acceleration. NVIDIA always conveniently forgets about FreeBSD. However, the ailment isn't really specific to NVIDIA but affects most binary blob vendors. For one, Widevine CDM is maintained by Google but EME itself was pushed to W3C by Netflix, a FreeBSD vendor which conveniently forgot a browser can run on FreeBSD. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 03:13:55 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52D5E80381 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:13:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.227]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DDD518AB for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:13:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id Ns0negrDFfiK5Ns0qe4dpB; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:10:44 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eNs3l-00082O-Cm for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:13:45 +0000 Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 22:13:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfMQ/F6U4zwVgjL6X5stXsQhJ5nqE0Y8pIFZeh1p0cT4+ksLz6k0JcDjAgJYda+4NKU9M3fmBkxt2kWzWzK0EidYVYlJLNuT4zvd2WI+7Af8KecDeXBS/ r5Mu2Plam3N8fxxAqRtf+tVqWtdW7Vx+HFb+412iUyVIuCtoqk2p3owqCyAas6LZoP7H2t6Zx06iQMgJnvWgJblV1tBTxL41Ups= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:13:55 -0000 On 12/9/2017 9:45 PM, Jan Beich wrote: > Shane Ambler writes: > >> On 04/12/2017 21:19, galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote: >> >>> On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote: >>>> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me >>>> the real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under >>> Arrogance would be my guess. >> The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we should be >> able to run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps. > Modern CUDA toolkit is 64bit but runtime only works on 32bit (bug 206711). > Building as -m32 is probably still possible but may not fit all workloads > nor run as fast. > >>>> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting >>>> supported shortly? >>> Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just >>> not to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and >>> unwillingness to disclose details of their hardware was always much >>> worse than that of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...). >>> >>> This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations. >> I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev >> at one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any technical >> reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into it. >> Still hasn't helped any. > Just like Vulkan, just like KMS, just like encoding/capture acceleration. > NVIDIA always conveniently forgets about FreeBSD. However, the ailment > isn't really specific to NVIDIA but affects most binary blob vendors. > For one, Widevine CDM is maintained by Google but EME itself was pushed > to W3C by Netflix, a FreeBSD vendor which conveniently forgot a browser > can run on FreeBSD. > What is FreeBSD market share? Could be the market share of FreeBSD is so small it is not worth their time? Maybe the FreeBSD developers are too abrasive? Or maybe some other reason? Linux is everywhere so maybe that is why Linux gets all the glory? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 04:52:33 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16FDCE8210B for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 04:52:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D20BE63644 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 04:52:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id o2so2921598ioe.8 for ; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 20:52:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=27C/wPZXkLBELZYqXOORe2tpM182H8Fr7nYcJZ9cmIo=; b=KmZabUcuID4ncXEeaO35PGkcwWhbgdvtbEnZfU8g8Kz5ylQhz7cWJFiCGROcVQTrms U7MCs3C7zRPsBsNJCC1Jido5dbA/TLIjR1Ix9XMfrLek54jw4Y8tAXVJWyOJPPhUVwl0 JX5SCmBPdteBZwjuOL1dETgzycq5IzX+5sNtSj4fbl8pe6RkyVHL5u96aiGrG2PVUNfL UM0gOKtACsDAqZB4xx1mNdenAXUcFn060eZ+87ce5se61le8RVWviWoSwBRp/hzOEtdG 9JtWs3TulkzO9U8r64D16Xqx6iCXVidYQDVsUKicQdyA87pxrPOanjKVQxDDMhsC+kn4 qilA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=27C/wPZXkLBELZYqXOORe2tpM182H8Fr7nYcJZ9cmIo=; b=d0GsWacJBYihSipE4czt3mtB8rknBZ2wj2ht/awS1PSPpi1kS1oOB1hNVKfD/61csF DvShfIOcC9iXiff2sw44/umfNm2O3eYYu95HWepU1mBjEUKkKL5f5EDYvR+e5NONIEU7 TKbzrrQaMx9q0/6I3CI2Yb12AdFmrus1wHAaryDVUZR/VRGGHolt7xjAw1+3U8C4hF+Q vlqFASrzEk7Hn8jqj353LPjTeYnX2AnCSx39eQaoukvLq3Ht1YgR1dGf8coaR/gkcY/E 25DGVl+EheFX+OHsUZs3fva3kXRLNccnNXLYW7PvZfyxf337AhC6w3U0djUE/WIfJE2O 1beQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5x6YLpJ1z/8Pw509siUOJf1iTDlSoRD5SVQ80qkePquG9+v0XX PsH0PSUnzB9CDvCkLwuRWiAKqRC8Thi8TSe8l1c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbD2f5wnTMY5wAwNoyLel92knd6QoAJaV6JGcjbyjqF3xkamDYedAt45hCc3wiSKXJFUkXRX3z36tDo0skT6WY= X-Received: by 10.107.85.5 with SMTP id j5mr48191330iob.296.1512881552053; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 20:52:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.11.31 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 20:52:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:52:31 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD To: Baho Utot Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 04:52:33 -0000 On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Baho Utot wrote: > On 12/9/2017 9:45 PM, Jan Beich wrote: > >> Shane Ambler writes: >> >> On 04/12/2017 21:19, galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote: >>>> >>>>> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me >>>>> the real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under >>>>> >>>> Arrogance would be my guess. >>>> >>> The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we should be >>> able to run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps. >>> >> Modern CUDA toolkit is 64bit but runtime only works on 32bit (bug 206711). >> Building as -m32 is probably still possible but may not fit all workloads >> nor run as fast. >> >> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting >>>>> supported shortly? >>>>> >>>> Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just >>>> not to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and >>>> unwillingness to disclose details of their hardware was always much >>>> worse than that of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...). >>>> >>>> This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations. >>>> >>> I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev >>> at one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any technical >>> reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into it. >>> Still hasn't helped any. >>> >> Just like Vulkan, just like KMS, just like encoding/capture acceleration. >> NVIDIA always conveniently forgets about FreeBSD. However, the ailment >> isn't really specific to NVIDIA but affects most binary blob vendors. >> For one, Widevine CDM is maintained by Google but EME itself was pushed >> to W3C by Netflix, a FreeBSD vendor which conveniently forgot a browser >> can run on FreeBSD. >> >> > What is FreeBSD market share? > Could be the market share of FreeBSD is so small it is not worth their > time? > Maybe the FreeBSD developers are too abrasive? > Or maybe some other reason? > Linux is everywhere so maybe that is why Linux gets all the glory? > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe > @freebsd.org" > NVIDIA doesn't forget about FreeBSD, there are devs over there that uses it. The issue is FreeBSD didn't have enough devs willing or able to do the work necessary to get the graphics ported in a way that would bring interest to this platform. The linuxkpi stuff is cute but it's not a real long term solution. The whole DRM/KMS needs to be ported to FreeBSD and have a few major titles over here; Steam for example, that would get people's attention. It's something that will get done but it needs some time. @Baho Maybe if you spent more time providing solutions and doing productive work you wouldn't have to be feeling like nobody wants you around. How does your answer help anyone overcoming the obstacle of getting CUDA on FreeBSD? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 05:20:16 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C03E82704 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 05:20:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from duane@nofroth.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x233.google.com (mail-vk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C710063EFC for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 05:20:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from duane@nofroth.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id n63so9090428vkf.2 for ; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 21:20:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nofroth.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dGwHq6tFlYf8H7QRFwE+ICxKY/1Z09BaKr2inQQwlfY=; b=F1kyXKoNHfsChUUCmsy7elNgTPUrzQDXuvq61PUT9Opvwl3eCJrp16pXzeGB5rzdHM sX8xRRrONI6bgm6vq4bBkXN7d5Drh875fHMeqN41oufv5U0EOMnmlOUKyP++NucRkeUu rs3YZgOGYPH4NirHkvjDDDRsG/FdicPwCmMGtag8tb2QRvyLvgtsuXnn9mSRWr6UIhzf bqvOopIsUEd4t2vsf/DPoIUCAc89wwCn4TedyFr13hd2mncDWTWH62RlrSqBrMUGnejK v1T/C/X6DmYprcf8scPtLmoGnT80Y8tsYpzGBWyFhvaCder1ZRbRsWFMK4hYoQKnX0n7 WoOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dGwHq6tFlYf8H7QRFwE+ICxKY/1Z09BaKr2inQQwlfY=; b=rOql8Oebr8VdYJf4hoq0uZLFG53+K1/7jh7swTus2ofNaQIvohwyICRsFAGcBa9MsH ZpStLazQdRytG1Dvj24SdYuyY+G8kWLNddBU+sYMcI++PRS0BTHerbOh+CsgD/N+jPNP EXRUSyyzeKQwzA2vo/rvF65tsaZp/OSpF97U0QHfc+0ua/ZXONYPto1pUSHYY+E/hi6e bd9QI1kneEin/1TqctlVIqggQ1PsXUVM1vqApqCeEtDE7gGL9d86NQW5Q03dILfdZ3ID TFPspdynJkFp1bWbr/pgEupRt9SHV4eeFbI8W3XuTua1r1AGG/ynrOH4lx/HlH3RcMLC 5+TA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLPCWLeNUmgIEpCEDtAcATuFCqOlcmZX0MJ6T5rig7qbj8xeBsc OOUPS+wtsW/pVr4qMZP5pgPSa/jepHcXWBvnzy3miQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZrEns7WD0zseJq4Ozg6TXR62J3Sz1B74eLidyF3Pjlf7i3ChFn4UXAbif1tlA+lurYKhNYnujUQQMWAk0Arl0= X-Received: by 10.31.3.147 with SMTP id f19mr21745617vki.84.1512883214851; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 21:20:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.50.196 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 21:20:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.31.50.196 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 21:20:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5A290AFD.1080902@gmail.com> <20171207131353.5bdeb3276b704f35e2a103bc@sohara.org> <5A2C9169.5010509@gmail.com> From: Duane Whitty Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:20:14 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: openvpn & win10 vpn To: Ernie Luzar Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 05:20:16 -0000 I recommend using a tool like wireshark. It's the only way you can be certain all communication is going through the VPN. A common culprit which gives away your ISP provided IP is DNS. Best Regards, Duane On Dec 9, 2017 21:44, "Ernie Luzar" wrote: > > >> Secure Connection Failed >>> >>> The connection to www.hulu.com was interrupted while the page was >>> loading. >>> >> >> That doesn't sound like a VPN problem - not sure what it is >> though. >> >> > Is it possible for a url receiving packets that passed through a vpn to > determine that fact? > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe > @freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 05:51:30 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE8BE83049 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 05:51:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@safeport.com) Received: from bucksport.safeport.com (bucksport.safeport.com [198.74.231.101]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EC8E64AB1 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 05:51:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@safeport.com) Received: from bucksport.safeport.com (bucksport.safeport.com [198.74.231.101]) by bucksport.safeport.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vBA5X7mZ063612; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:33:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from doug@safeport.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:33:07 -0500 (EST) From: DTD To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Polytropon Subject: New packaging approach Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (bucksport.safeport.com [198.74.231.101]); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 00:33:08 -0500 (EST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 05:51:30 -0000 On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, Polytropon wrote: > However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will handle this. As you > might have read, pkg will be used for installing and upgrading OS files in the > future, so there will not be the big difference "freebsd-update" and "pkg > update" / "pkg upgrade". Where can I read about this? If this leads to dependency issues similar to those encountered with desktops, my reaction is more of 'oh s--t' rather then 'oh boy'. Back to the days when the odd or even versions numbers were for those of us (read me) who do not track Stable for similar reasons. _____ Douglas Denault http://www.safeport.com doug@safeport.com Voice: 301-217-9220 Fax: 301-217-9277 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 06:07:48 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA712E83500; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 06:07:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD3F765072; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 06:07:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id m11so8781628iti.1; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 22:07:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=D2dXfAhJbKGLKvyhewSzbtPuYYGL1JZ/VdqWI28RSco=; b=kLKTtHsdnoXngFGT719LMVHR16JbOj7rfhOZbXGZ8HA5E4qkXc+BXTYxVGa1IN7Tv/ sqeQ0yq8sri50bgiTvTvvlIqyPnMr9z2WyoHowgSFWIeK6qvoxbiSBFbsjLcQ1A2OSgr 58P1BPruaaR2jahtxRJC66L+S6WvGguifhVoTzs20ef+iAVxNT83tolCszkfOPHya7ow x1AfcgQTqUSPDzOjMW8dA/qrec1JZJkX1324EszxHPx2Sxm/Y9mCZPbBpym6bZKjdrit fpNcqowqM+2ztPiSuACJvP0Mb/7ZNwQTAmku+Y3+rBWWhaUfTiOquhbmOQKdmuLWGs/E 9ZJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=D2dXfAhJbKGLKvyhewSzbtPuYYGL1JZ/VdqWI28RSco=; b=Pzu+xRT38vMcmSfM+tVNpB3VYq4VgccEZKP8ZSnSUkxsA5ufCd2Y4LfTh+mg2uvAd+ 44J+qLiySlog5XSVPQ+slouTD1W5fayBcoAN6bow65JaxLGXH67yIhlZzjmgiT8a3GJV 2gBlK6hpiU/27srd8JV+8UIcZXdmQWX+3wGtx2ngmCF+IlX5wa5EfOsysYV9xbG0+sVr 79zzLSAP3CCKRwr5qSLWAtb5UBdk1zH2VhZnPUU5KfWJuxNfj7vlk1YWOztTA9EKUkYm YAAgPZy2u+ITWfscu9V67zhoQ3bebHP5QPKI4rGSLYRDPtdsuLXJ8RgeGJTcazQ+bkyc jOSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLNltCGsLCpjmPD8geYQJxVYt7mSA6PjrfoYEta4AQOUibwKz5j D+f8Hjc/HnoAofFNpPp7P+xQMRRVwWfcVtu85Uc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMa5mgW/bbb0z48GQ+NEE9EgiLnOfZGtG7T/GKfdGlPXnNY128IAKmE/HP8DrpgOA144wxc+lSf0Y/9kv7csdXw= X-Received: by 10.36.116.135 with SMTP id o129mr11601221itc.119.1512886067524; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 22:07:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.11.31 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 22:07:47 -0800 (PST) From: blubee blubeeme Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:07:47 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Makefile show all flags To: FreeBSD current , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 06:07:49 -0000 When porting software FreeBSD has a lot of internal makefiles that gets pulled in that setup the build environment: /usr/ports/Mk/* Is there a way to print out the env during the make process so that I can see what knobs, switches and flags were set before the build is run? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 10:16:07 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C3CE88219 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:16:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from dnvrco-cmomta01.email.rr.com (dnvrco-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.73.227]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBC7F6B4F2 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:16:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from localhost ([74.134.208.22]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id NybreETZ7goKNNybteRJKU; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:13:26 +0000 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:12:52 +0000 From: "Thomas Mueller" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209142711.d5bd91b7.freebsd@edvax.de> <4b109558-8422-a62a-9c45-748e03efbfba@columbus.rr.com> <20171209202321.b9919fc3.freebsd@edvax.de> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGXmJcWNJP+cBIspdYcq24qtQjCvjXe24303urBpzYfJSy3qGqmds4xIaAX4D4S2CbWcFTDjrOk3vxZFWr+MCJ/CZZ7XifqNi/z92ZvHf73PsdfdaAu1 2ruNk/8lIA1O1ysyhC3Dhm4cxp18tQrwwETj2IUKWTOtnrjBKej3HlmcpKYry7wB9ZF2vNgsUhWWcw== X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:16:07 -0000 from Polytropon: > Please allow me a few comments regarding your rant (which has > some valid point, but in my opinion illustrates a little lack > of understanding of how some things on FreeBSD work): > > They don't like to be called out or have some one be critcal of the > > "new" flavor system or any "new" thing that comes down the pike. It has > > caused a butt load of issues with my systems here. > In that case, "they" would have kicked me more than once for > expressing that I don't like the sc -> vt transition (which, > as I might mention again, is one of the biggest show stoppers, > because vt isn't a fully working replacement of sc, and it > can do only a fraction of what sc could, and even that only > at bad quality, and it's hardly documented). Now let's see > what happens. :-) I remember the switch to vt was necessary to enable xorg to work; this is also true in NetBSD; they call it DRMKMS. Copy-and-paste by mouse in FreeBSD double-spaces lines; mouse on console does not work at all in NetBSD. In NetBSD, I like booting into a 240x67 console; I can work better than with 80x25 or 80x30. Tom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 10:26:56 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7676E8866A for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:26:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from dnvrco-cmomta02.email.rr.com (dnvrco-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.73.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC2976B9D6 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:26:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from localhost ([74.134.208.22]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id NyoyeQYHGLrBHNyp0eug2A; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:26:58 +0000 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:26:21 +0000 From: "Thomas Mueller" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209142711.d5bd91b7.freebsd@edvax.de> <4b109558-8422-a62a-9c45-748e03efbfba@columbus.rr.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfBTlGmCXuRrL/yniTlXP0ESpG6PzMEWKoK2kP/9DpwPEnS2yrnbwOkFZ7IifZi9Y8TSU2tuizqD8Sc0h7ajzy2jaSF4u0YyRN9DEUiSwV7G7iNlrqyly uKGZ2oP+j9o7IPMblpq7gSNuy4oO7nlfmPrT1iP8tEXg466gYm9Nkx5D8CvqawafrWhkYFYQsCo0RQ== X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:26:57 -0000 > > On Sat, 9 Dec 2017 14:41:38 -0500, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > Except for the name, I don't dislike anything specific about > > > Poudriere. ;-) > > How do you pronounce it anyways? > In Germany, "poo-dree-ray". :-) > Why not an easy to understand abbreviation, "BPS = batch > packaging service", or "FSB = FreeBSD software builder"? > Then you could say, "My software is from the FSB!" ;-) > Polytropon Poudriere looks to me like a French word. So I pronounce it the French way, even if I am in Germany (where I have never been). Tom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 11:25:30 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6015DE89721 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:25:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carmel_ny@outlook.com) Received: from NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092007070.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.7.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "Microsoft IT SSL SHA2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 193116D24E for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:25:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carmel_ny@outlook.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=DJC4N555r51PFytB81dbmlYC4Mditpbgs6rJc9AiBfE=; b=SzQgD1rqAy4EIg97LqUfd9N1UB9mIMV4M1MPUyxOCtMzlx8VPWOoo6yyjwBe6ggZTjYyUIx4IBGx8Oh3c9vRsQ6NBI8/a4oVFrFxpQUNohyE/2NRJp4wbFkTlun51JURyI9v2tXGlxeJo0DERMxuPE1DUuU3zOb7QkxxrBTT07sSkQfEZYBj8QmdPQpEuaqTeoOPpfAJCfBwWfI40QiK50kQbRIMylUaLAuAkwX2vJ9w74tTQ94jRmx4ZC5xbSbaQ+zov0T4/Cm1XRxAL8b/4nstt888C5/sr++IsoJbOqVufC4Qd2vNyq/cpZIJzsNbTiUS+Uh17dVjCn63/53PbQ== Received: from BY2NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.84.52) by BY2NAM03HT065.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.85.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.20.302.6; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:25:28 +0000 Received: from BN6PR2001MB1730.namprd20.prod.outlook.com (10.152.84.59) by BY2NAM03FT062.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.85.62) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.20.302.6 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:25:28 +0000 Received: from BN6PR2001MB1730.namprd20.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.31.146]) by BN6PR2001MB1730.namprd20.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.31.146]) with mapi id 15.20.0302.013; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:25:28 +0000 From: Carmel NY To: 'FreeBSD' Subject: Need for video driver Thread-Topic: Need for video driver Thread-Index: AdNxqMBBJvMS5/ZdSbu86AboIkEy0g== Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:25:28 +0000 Message-ID: Reply-To: FreeBSD Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:477F9268EC3B01186C1CF9D08C9580DCCB403480743ED0BFFCB6F2DE26862946; UpperCasedChecksum:AE2D2A267CFE7AB4390708C146BDCC406FFE49805F758421D9BE77B342389AA6; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an older system that has an NVIDIA video card. The system is mainly = used for storage and as a mail server. Is there any advantage to installing the "x11/nvidia-driv= er" port? vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0: class=3D0x030000 card=3D0x13023842 chip=3D0x10c310d= e rev=3D0xa2 hdr=3D0x00 vendor =3D 'NVIDIA Corporation' device =3D 'GT218 [GeForce 8400 GS Rev. 3]' class =3D display subclass =3D VGA --=20 Carmel --=-=398+s0TBIwwzTm=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAABCAAdFiEEh3rFs7ZCOM581rwKjsagALPkYOsFAlotGZoACgkQjsagALPk YOtB7wgApfrBngfFn5siejd65By8zinePYtAQ0BErSfpt0j2QkPNFY63r4KE8Klp WQhM+qx/oW2TGuKjWkczxlIv7Ka5g0X1IGVhG+W94z0RdRWwG0W5OQDK9n6KOuqE ngnXki53UjtOxBzeo3mrGFA/sfXojMzQX3twjpb46CC47tVcZljniveOU5EUd/V1 Zpex8lGXw+XFHK+3f4J1yIoa5r4XVoMVKsKEmg852F0qEgii7FZ1GKCUbyw6Ygz2 xF2y/sDAuo0OLfnCxboCYh2eTHVSvTsGq7MAPrskjG/j87liEku5ToWIAZhqRxpf NX0QTTQ1vPPZd0AtBYcJRivqdQOzEA== =JjmM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=398+s0TBIwwzTm=-=-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 11:32:44 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251EBE89A67 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:32:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22a.google.com (mail-it0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD3526D77E for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:32:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id m11so9128243iti.1 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:32:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PkZ8W1WSNcoaQn0lm3RWW6mX15HBiGkTikpJctvugOU=; b=F0AxIm4Ym7seGPBWGWDAMTkifS5Y+YSmNSwJa/+6jvZUXN80+TdGRzE4FcQreFiYbx v75stSX2oyrif2eAiOPYRErsQlsYrqAle83ZLZ+mS6HDFTB2/wUvvPDepqGVX2nsYoy/ l1BE5niVpN9eSJllqPMmnDruOK6tisRIUPqxWa9y2dcLpH++Ndg1QKRT6HlrsyG2L7wE 8oMwJF5C1mjVVqYPL/uiiHwEG2kIAL1CiYhKWTFEODxlJaHvf9b5TVk9n/iI+E6J9icL +Nc+qwN/bpxv5FIom7mZb9xlJaKjrpbXfW7UOGDbTL9ToDduLEnfUoQ4q6AE+5o9l8BY ql7A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=PkZ8W1WSNcoaQn0lm3RWW6mX15HBiGkTikpJctvugOU=; b=eUd+dv4gZP07VXB3u74yJOscFLQtLsT9NJosrVfz1FiT2G/NbbqUX0xG5Qf3AhbvpK 0TGyExMPvY1YvP4iEwfiVlF/Leu3opHA5PbbQmRHVFhgpUG94avz1xB0RteJnOADbuIP +IuJTO/2A1H7mPF6XN5WU3SlhZSZx2eMoJl8Vhs1aAyhFC2ga03FFESTpw81VaJ8USEM AIPIeee0zkGZFGrqcA/kJs1z9o4a7jI4zsazKAGPqbLsSUaTcGXj1B4tudJtncfYI1ta ZZ2fdEnzkpYOT9lj5FjyVP7EQz052wczRfrp1v5pSEoeh31ms2fhzz04JCaxva4iM8OF SH5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mI7emoSFvwTN16GfRWIniekNthNc8+YVWGBmpMtmj9b1MGcVJNF UtujaraWjOPCo+6D32zvQUfD2OnrWqtKR0nqyEY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZzgBH7tCuZsasCnaizCVU2aQIyzfHZEUPh85Mq+snBIEybYQQv6+ggaBDDsRpYYU5D4ElzFXRsiNKBv5XYgtM= X-Received: by 10.36.221.147 with SMTP id t141mr13011539itf.140.1512905562951; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:32:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.11.31 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 03:32:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: blubee blubeeme Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:32:42 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Need for video driver To: FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:32:44 -0000 On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Carmel NY wrote: > I have an older system that has an NVIDIA video card. The system is mainly > used for storage and > as a mail server. Is there any advantage to installing the > "x11/nvidia-driver" port? > > vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0: class=0x030000 card=0x13023842 chip=0x10c310de > rev=0xa2 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'NVIDIA Corporation' > device = 'GT218 [GeForce 8400 GS Rev. 3]' > class = display > subclass = VGA > > -- > Carmel > If you're only going to be using the console, I wouldn't see the need to install graphics drivers. Will you be using anything other than ssh to manage that server? 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Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:23 +0000 Received: from BN6PR2001MB1730.namprd20.prod.outlook.com (10.152.66.56) by BN3NAM01FT026.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.67.135) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.20.282.5 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:23 +0000 Received: from BN6PR2001MB1730.namprd20.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.31.146]) by BN6PR2001MB1730.namprd20.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.31.146]) with mapi id 15.20.0302.013; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:23 +0000 From: Carmel NY To: 'FreeBSD' Subject: RE: Need for video driver Thread-Topic: Need for video driver Thread-Index: AdNxqMBBJvMS5/ZdSbu86AboIkEy0gJsmISroPWLxkA= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: FreeBSD Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:4975EF593819E45F73DD6191AA2E0070D3E498B61AD912B032A3AD1E786E14CB; UpperCasedChecksum:698E410A61B4AC2D6C9BB49F69CEE625B3BA3D6BB0F792CE6FD8B46AC45D7440; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, December 10, 2017 6:33 AM, blubee blubeeme = stated: > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Carmel NY wrote: >=20 > > I have an older system that has an NVIDIA video card. The system is > > mainly used for storage and as a mail server. Is there any advantage > > to installing the "x11/nvidia-driver" port? > > > > vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0: class=3D0x030000 card=3D0x13023842 chip=3D0x10c= 310de > > rev=3D0xa2 hdr=3D0x00 > > vendor =3D 'NVIDIA Corporation' > > device =3D 'GT218 [GeForce 8400 GS Rev. 3]' > > class =3D display > > subclass =3D VGA > > > > -- > > Carmel > > >=20 > If you're only going to be using the console, I wouldn't see the need to = install > graphics drivers. > Will you be using anything other than ssh to manage that server? I have access to the server and usually access it directly. I am just not s= ure if the NVIDIA driver does anything outside of an x11 environment. --=20 Carmel --=-=YUkcrNmNwxlRjZ=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAABCAAdFiEEh3rFs7ZCOM581rwKjsagALPkYOsFAlotI60ACgkQjsagALPk YOtwyQgAkKG9DO4ezOv6Azv/vX0K0Hh8WhzRUO7zMKQ016TSteE/srGOjCFLlfXG m9iN9ZfnVA8SiQGwp2Iu5CNcG/GQNmr3CDYckPEVWOEGN9bXj/XJpq2CjmHF1BOO GgpT14x/3IN8gMn4lJHsIFLQBMT1gha2tSB2cC+YWlCDUgk4FvT1Nq/4ESuZyJva UEfllOUWnVx7kYne0Y81FKmfQseDl70k0EwgmNXUX5sJyqSOJQkphRZfXcs0p9cu 2rJhnzkFynFK7hBapDYoqajyy7EUZ1P5y675YFVNfWqQAquVbGk4cbnwNBt6do9v 5SU3ictEHV59BHn+nDBKuKnRBEICBg== =XBb2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=YUkcrNmNwxlRjZ=-=-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 12:36:35 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E04E8B7C8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:36:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta03.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.227]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE5116F6F2 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:36:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id O0riexumZmG8pO0rleWtOO; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:37:57 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eO0qM-0008Be-QF for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:36:30 +0000 Subject: Re: New packaging approach To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Baho Utot Message-ID: <07f48e07-ce70-7a26-ea19-fd389375afb4@columbus.rr.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 07:36:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfOwOkFPvEW6vyAFbb6WjAQq4D9XY+0LoW74K311RJHxT/huC+XBDEfgSyANKLglsJlPI7H6yAmB2YDu/6wduuHBEQ7trvrO3YzS/hz6Po9ZXm7yyOD/6 rwWRGDMM5RWqtEOdykU0Wh8o4tBr0/KrlkR0cZnBrKBenBpMQpcI26WISb6L+fP7o6JZITeZcRiOYF596ZboDaKOld2RdZ0H914= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:36:36 -0000 On 12/10/2017 12:33 AM, DTD wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, Polytropon wrote: > >> However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will handle >> this. As you might have read, pkg will be used for installing and >> upgrading OS files in the future, so there will not be the big >> difference "freebsd-update" and "pkg update" / "pkg upgrade". > > Where can I read about this? If this leads to dependency issues > similar to those encountered with desktops, my reaction is more of 'oh > s--t' rather then 'oh boy'. Back to the days when the odd or even > versions numbers were for those of us (read me) who do not track > Stable for similar reasons. > The way the packaging of base is currently being done will*guarantee a great level of OH SHIT. * From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 12:39:53 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671B3E8B918 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:39:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.225]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33FC76F826 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:39:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id O0tYenWV8dX1SO0tbeDTOT; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:39:51 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eO0tY-0008Bs-AU for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:39:48 +0000 Subject: Re: Need for video driver To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Baho Utot Message-ID: <0078e1c2-cbd3-22ce-cf37-633750527fe6@columbus.rr.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 07:39:43 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfADy7sPOAM0A0wVD422GGtEAzooeiUc0tKgexpPqOnn5fBbjbRShaMlTfbWbF204f2HJ9aT05pIpSUcQfLIh/JmcKYqy+RCdsq2Y/dEqac+VIxWM7Coo 22axQmb4YqRN1Se5ChmT9pBdw/QhRXJpCMyKFNqdhqXGs/ebvvn0iTq4EzULQ8jWZEVkhG3R0NehF8mPQ9wpn6p3bys3Kz/oJm4= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:39:53 -0000 On 12/10/2017 7:08 AM, Carmel NY wrote: > On Sunday, December 10, 2017 6:33 AM, blubee blubeeme stated: >> On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Carmel NY wrote: >> >>> I have an older system that has an NVIDIA video card. The system is >>> mainly used for storage and as a mail server. Is there any advantage >>> to installing the "x11/nvidia-driver" port? >>> >>> vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0: class=0x030000 card=0x13023842 chip=0x10c310de >>> rev=0xa2 hdr=0x00 >>> vendor = 'NVIDIA Corporation' >>> device = 'GT218 [GeForce 8400 GS Rev. 3]' >>> class = display >>> subclass = VGA >>> >>> -- >>> Carmel >>> >> If you're only going to be using the console, I wouldn't see the need to install >> graphics drivers. >> Will you be using anything other than ssh to manage that server? > I have access to the server and usually access it directly. I am just not sure if the NVIDIA driver > does anything outside of an x11 environment. > If you are not using xorg the answer is no From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 13:07:14 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AFDFE8C1A1 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:07:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from bca5.email-od.com (bca5.email-od.com [207.246.239.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5927E704D8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:07:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1512911237; x=1515503237; h=x-thread-info:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=83/CF11fCH17+erMKO2pZAHnl0Z7yhv02QnshUrIfd0=; b=KfzLfhbCXJ8WG37NJwPuW0C1pBU4mwnpllR63qboSOp4ftgUGZ/iLJi5PXqaK6INueLcEaFuMaecepd4oZexpeP7rhYEXniiesZ7eAm8Ph8DGHG9S1xkURXmnsXHgi9ZE37UjGQAeCsi9tEHabveFh135SLk+JYDNLKzGyVpQCk= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi44MTAwMDAwMDYzNmJkYS5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r5.us-east.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r5.us-east.aws.in.socketlabs.com [52.204.195.176]) by bca2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 08:07:06 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [89.127.62.20]) by r5.us-east.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 08:07:03 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.89 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1eO1Js-0003nB-V6; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:07:00 +0000 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:07:00 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: Restoring sc console look and feel with vt Message-Id: <20171210130700.3fd3ecce0b45b567c9fd9509@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20170905151245.f592508c.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20170905151245.f592508c.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.6.0 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:07:14 -0000 On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 15:12:45 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > As more and more systems got updated, vt has become the default > console driver, and sc and modern X seem to heavily collide, so > there is no way back. However, even though vt basically works, > the modes it automatically chooses are far from usable from my > point of view: The text is far too small to be conveniently read. > Also the colors seem to be "wrong" and of low contrast (compared > to sc, that is, on the same hardware). > > The "just works" feeling somehow has been lost... :-( I stayed out of this thread because my system doesn't have the effect you describe, the console font is nice and big (80x29 on my 1280x1024 monitor) but a quick dig around didn't reveal any reason for me being so blessed. I've stumbled across that reason now. My ancient nVidia ION hardware is supported by the old nVidia driver that doesn't speak KMS. Without KMS the display stays in vt 640x480 mode and seems to find a decently usable font by default and I can flip between consoles and X with no problems. It seems that KMS is the problem rather than vt. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 13:09:28 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EF3BE8C29B for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:09:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.home.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "fileserver.home.qeng-ho.org", Issuer "fileserver.home.qeng-ho.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C83E705DA for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:09:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.home.qeng-ho.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vBAD9M60007942; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:09:22 GMT (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here To: Erwan David , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209160730.GA3370@admin.sibptus.transneft.ru> <20171209195258.d4727a94.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209223810.8de0bbf7.freebsd@edvax.de> <16c8fa46-d201-11d2-5ce2-6d37de0c717f@rail.eu.org> From: Arthur Chance Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:09:22 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <16c8fa46-d201-11d2-5ce2-6d37de0c717f@rail.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:09:28 -0000 On 09/12/2017 21:44, Erwan David wrote: > Le 12/09/17 à 22:38, Polytropon a écrit : >> On Sat, 9 Dec 2017 14:41:38 -0500, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>>> Except for the name, I don't dislike anything specific about >>>> Poudriere. ;-) >>>> >>> How do you pronounce it anyways? >> In Germany, "poo-dree-ray". :-) >> >> Why not an easy to understand abbreviation, "BPS = batch >> packaging service", or "FSB = FreeBSD software builder"? >> Then you could say, "My software is from the FSB!" ;-) >> >> >> > I do not know if it is related, but in french poudrière (Poo dree year) > is a room to store gunpowder. According to Collins dictionary it's either a powder magazine(*) or a powder keg. Given the logo on the web pages poudriere creates, I think the latter meaning is the one intended. (*) For those whose first language isn't English, magazine in this case means a secure room used to store weapons or weapon related stuff. -- An amusing coincidence: log2(58) = 5.858 (to 0.0003% accuracy). From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 13:34:23 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07333E8CC9D; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:34:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [IPv6:2001:19f0:300:2185:a:dead:bad:faff]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C876771603; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:34:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vBADYLIM079285; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:34:21 GMT (envelope-from jamie@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id vBADYLgI079284; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:34:21 GMT (envelope-from jamie) From: Jamie Landeg-Jones Message-Id: <201712101334.vBADYLgI079284@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:34:21 +0000 Organization: Dyslexic Fish To: gurenchan@gmail.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Makefile show all flags References: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:34:22 +0000 (GMT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:34:23 -0000 blubee blubeeme wrote: > When porting software FreeBSD has a lot of internal makefiles that gets > pulled in that setup the build environment: /usr/ports/Mk/* > > Is there a way to print out the env during the make process so that I can > see what knobs, switches and flags were set before the build is run? Is this any use? make -dA .... It's pretty verbose. I'd suggest running it through "script" or redirecting stderr to a file! cheers, jamie From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 13:37:58 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F77E8CF29 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:37:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22c.google.com (mail-it0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAE0171882 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:37:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id d16so10399432itj.1 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 05:37:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qFdahwPA5bqZkBkT9qEVraufpamsFb4Vuh+iw76ry9E=; b=L8QZrXdaZJsmkEQG5DUe6ZUKcuLVP+SdpuQq4/eXz496xCsVHALQ55cpwNthVyFoY8 nn/7NroXYuldHE/JUnTR53w5epGbK/RPx0mMSiVxQADuvRbjngF3wKfkKnBAKygB5CYh h7koAMIc0OLnQ2k/uQHgmNlINJLn2005xFTuOF5PbdZJ83a2xeiKkc8haX6UOItrkeZ7 5pAQadsu3Xh1MrZsy/Dibb79PAjNWPU1jLMzG64Srrgr/E8K9/Hcu7HUbl4w/FlSMcAm qOwdspRHN2FThTG7Or6L9ZvHbT9Fz+TEyoEKy7qy8PG1pmE2ugRYDO+yhcdEisYleLRV v/1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qFdahwPA5bqZkBkT9qEVraufpamsFb4Vuh+iw76ry9E=; b=DACFsNhasUqGaMpOiFUlObFA1OY/ACHaNZ4yHqafbUZ1+dy2v2qJ55yYoKf51bT9av LtLE1vB4bsxgPsPnUrdKBNn5deiUOcgswPkK/pHolfGphpB+AwuFBqnnaIDrDsXS1SbM FmVKOrqwzM8YlGDmuJKcX59Sc6vIwL0ZztIuHRZSyTytlhfQIRPqHJlrHAGXH7MMgH0Z gGqGP1625MrY+vjyVKvl7Y9O/PUMkAFU1iTxIWdFwJmM9y6VR9opKZQeIanpflIZZfcJ D5pimENR+7hBGvbZDAWHh7j+hr45vlv8AWEwnOCpeuKaZfyBB54E6IKoVXKvJ0WSwWtl n/nw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mIlgZVDUt0xHpj2qHFZhU4wca5dkXzwRnXJkmhRTIJIghE2jbat m2ZKsgpq45cRdRWK0SjPIcVz78adwcQQhr82xPY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMae3vKqZgTAoQnOa4Ao+yBCLqUFu6b8aHuDxbnsmxJG1HQuvKm0y2yo97qoTjwnBB+JWE2he0/JYHhWJkiSlO8= X-Received: by 10.36.167.77 with SMTP id s13mr13765247iti.51.1512913077146; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 05:37:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.11.31 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 05:37:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20171210130700.3fd3ecce0b45b567c9fd9509@sohara.org> References: <20170905151245.f592508c.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171210130700.3fd3ecce0b45b567c9fd9509@sohara.org> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:37:56 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Restoring sc console look and feel with vt To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD , Polytropon Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:37:58 -0000 When I was booting my laptop in BIOS mode my text was very large and readable on this 4k screen. After updating to UEFI my text is unreadable. On the other side in BIOS mode I could only work with tty1, trying to switch would crash my graphics card [GTX 1070] and force a reboot on UEFI I can use different consoles no problem. On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 15:12:45 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: > > > As more and more systems got updated, vt has become the default > > console driver, and sc and modern X seem to heavily collide, so > > there is no way back. However, even though vt basically works, > > the modes it automatically chooses are far from usable from my > > point of view: The text is far too small to be conveniently read. > > Also the colors seem to be "wrong" and of low contrast (compared > > to sc, that is, on the same hardware). > > > > The "just works" feeling somehow has been lost... :-( > > I stayed out of this thread because my system doesn't have the > effect you describe, the console font is nice and big (80x29 on my > 1280x1024 monitor) but a quick dig around didn't reveal any reason for me > being so blessed. > > I've stumbled across that reason now. My ancient nVidia ION > hardware > is supported by the old nVidia driver that doesn't speak KMS. Without KMS > the display stays in vt 640x480 mode and seems to find a decently usable > font by default and I can flip between consoles and X with no problems. > > It seems that KMS is the problem rather than vt. > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 14:38:24 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85A4E8DEDA for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:38:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: from be-well.ilk.org (be-well.ilk.org [23.30.133.173]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8338573406 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:38:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: from lowell-desk.lan (router.lan [172.30.250.2]) by be-well.ilk.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29DB33C38; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 09:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by lowell-desk.lan (Postfix, from userid 1147) id B94C53981A; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 09:38:15 -0500 (EST) From: Lowell Gilbert To: Carmel NY Cc: 'FreeBSD' Subject: Re: Need for video driver References: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 09:38:15 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Carmel NY's message of "Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:23 +0000") Message-ID: <44fu8ibqco.fsf@lowell-desk.lan> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:38:24 -0000 Carmel NY writes: > On Sunday, December 10, 2017 6:33 AM, blubee blubeeme stated: >> On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Carmel NY wrote: >> >> > I have an older system that has an NVIDIA video card. The system is >> > mainly used for storage and as a mail server. Is there any advantage >> > to installing the "x11/nvidia-driver" port? >> > >> > vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0: class=0x030000 card=0x13023842 chip=0x10c310de >> > rev=0xa2 hdr=0x00 >> > vendor = 'NVIDIA Corporation' >> > device = 'GT218 [GeForce 8400 GS Rev. 3]' >> > class = display >> > subclass = VGA >> > >> > -- >> > Carmel >> > >> >> If you're only going to be using the console, I wouldn't see the need to install >> graphics drivers. >> Will you be using anything other than ssh to manage that server? > > I have access to the server and usually access it directly. I am just not sure if the NVIDIA driver > does anything outside of an x11 environment. No, it's specifically an X driver. Even within X, it doesn't improve on the generic driver much unless you're running games, watching movies, or something like that. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 15:29:30 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C258E8EE18 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:29:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from c.brinkhaus@t-online.de) Received: from mailout04.t-online.de (mailout04.t-online.de [194.25.134.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailout00.t-online.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F5BC74828 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:29:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from c.brinkhaus@t-online.de) Received: from fwd13.aul.t-online.de (fwd13.aul.t-online.de [172.20.27.62]) by mailout04.t-online.de (Postfix) with SMTP id 806B841AA14F; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:29:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from esprimo.local (rSc1ScZCZhXcyoRwVE0mCcp-kaLaEgOps7GVD2zPN6o2F0EPAC9ek7BNpse2T8DQDN@[93.197.142.79]) by fwd13.t-online.de with (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted) esmtp id 1eO3XX-30Pmcq0; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:29:15 +0100 Received: by esprimo.local (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1F54210612E; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:29:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:29:38 +0100 From: Christoph Brinkhaus To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Carmel NY Subject: Re: Fetchmail & poudriere Message-ID: <20171210152938.GA13803@esprimo.local> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-ID: rSc1ScZCZhXcyoRwVE0mCcp-kaLaEgOps7GVD2zPN6o2F0EPAC9ek7BNpse2T8DQDN X-TOI-MSGID: bc1e1b6a-68c0-4568-a001-36ed59b76c24 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:29:30 -0000 On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 11:00:41AM +0000, Carmel NY wrote: > On Sat, 09 Dec 2017 05:11:31 +0000, Ben Woods stated: > > >On Sat, 9 Dec 2017 at 7:41 am, Carmel NY wrote: > > > >> I am attempting to build "mail/fetchmail< specifically: > >> "fetchmail-6.3.26_5" using poudriere. > >> It refuses to build it and gives this as the reason: "You are using > >> OpenSSL from ports and have > >> selected GSSAPI from base, please select another GSSAPI value". I have > >> used the "options" > >> options with poudriere and confirmed that GSSAPI is set to none. Building > >> fetchmail using "make" > >> with the same configuration works fine. What is causing the problem. When > >> using "options" with > >> poudriere, it shows the correct config file settings. > >> > >> -- > >> Carmel > >> > >Hi Carmel, > > > >Can you please attach the poudriere log for the failed build? > > > >Regards, > >Ben > > This is a link to the file: > https://seibercom.net/logs/Fetchmail_Build_Log.txt Hello Carmel, according to the log file GSSAPI is set to BASE: ====> GSSAPI Security API support: you have to select exactly one of them GSSAPI_BASE=on: GSSAPI support via base system (needs Kerberos) GSSAPI_HEIMDAL=off: GSSAPI support via security/heimdal GSSAPI_MIT=off: GSSAPI support via security/krb5 GSSAPI_NONE=off: Disable GSSAPI support The options generated by make config appear in /var/db/ports. On my system poudriere checks options in /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/11amd64-ports-options/. 11amd64 is my build jail and ports the set. Please try to copy the options directory to the location where poudriere seeks for options for your setup. May be that could solve the problem. Kind regards, Christoph From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 17:58:48 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3CBE93067 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:58:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D5417A2C1 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:58:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.195.18.98]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue105 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0Md4Fu-1egAx73QGI-00IDw6; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:58:35 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:58:34 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Baho Utot Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD Message-Id: <20171210185834.7b244303.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:0uglPqHtzDPpNcIau+L63pCy/8CAXHAur7LRf+6rnJnH8fJcVMa TfP6sRaZMmMoRtu6/NzyL8cNRMruKFjL3kf/xDlgqc+Ue5w6M9WcxbGUkRFZKwJ+O0oo3FS YCKmOXpiqmW90pK8tXnjVIJO08K6WIAGABOzn8nz1P1GS1X6fZU0ZmwsW9lRI9FIkAScdZ1 CMl0xf4NzccALzG+EYtxw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:8rmGvmKo5i4=:Wnot9qmgj5xh3utcWIjxXs jqV3qClzG2gvWmyzoRBPhitDisEqppFu42xmewAeWn/lEqfYgoI3CgUbu2UJdtXcT8sgvL0kt obtn9CY1n/ixI7tHYDGJRSMrE2Z7Khf1VhM1MzaZxZb8uVywdKLmu/5fbApVBNstkZyIpz57D iV2oXWW657aSRvr2R0IBqqQytxtNu2sUnI7fTYMw9XNLilgiOX2W6HRxGr4KFegFuBzSv6BJU 0sZKSKXYRKIIpdQPL4FsdE/Z7KQBVgj5+QLmbkKQ/fytvdq6xp4J20iOMOFADKFgWZ7bj5UdP yEbQ69nJLU46TSBXRLGumP9THkZWjHo+BuNavMOHj5QQBqNsCcqgqhVjoQBtTSOk3LmHSQw9X NhPLaoBXGFpjmHCRLx7Sb/QwzXZTkv70NkTw8xDdalGhJcXygtJ8HLeQ3lhSl9GnKszNRszFo P3kC3A+ZBwZiUpGYZYsxHmD3aV1hxBhJYlTs7Ik5vj/eD9pn4GoEhqypxUtU0E7FGLjnjXqyy BdmIj/9YPtnn7ydbqBJCVe0J5oMZnxTLLIVJZ3sJe9ibLehlTnPZuuO92lmq8xBNAGX20n0I0 z/9+5r9d7IU6OE2ZWUv72EPmVT59G3+j0Z0K8hs1fP6h+CGVIVjD7204eDU8YP9nPEGP81A6n AOxxphIiau5hrcrzegVh/m756X+zDyU21thGXsVvrzhDeznlP4yhHJSXlUQ55sFBCKo5JLd6O 2jGo/xoDZWNUE0N4ZME97RxZjS7bpcSH02Pqcy4ZqhzKGJviqjNwRtjqCOM= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:58:49 -0000 On Sat, 9 Dec 2017 22:13:40 -0500, Baho Utot wrote: > On 12/9/2017 9:45 PM, Jan Beich wrote: > > Shane Ambler writes: > > > >> On 04/12/2017 21:19, galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote: > >> > >>> On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote: > >>>> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me > >>>> the real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under > >>> Arrogance would be my guess. > >> The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we should be > >> able to run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps. > > Modern CUDA toolkit is 64bit but runtime only works on 32bit (bug 206711). > > Building as -m32 is probably still possible but may not fit all workloads > > nor run as fast. > > > >>>> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting > >>>> supported shortly? > >>> Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just > >>> not to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and > >>> unwillingness to disclose details of their hardware was always much > >>> worse than that of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...). > >>> > >>> This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations. > >> I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev > >> at one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any technical > >> reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into it. > >> Still hasn't helped any. > > Just like Vulkan, just like KMS, just like encoding/capture acceleration. > > NVIDIA always conveniently forgets about FreeBSD. However, the ailment > > isn't really specific to NVIDIA but affects most binary blob vendors. > > For one, Widevine CDM is maintained by Google but EME itself was pushed > > to W3C by Netflix, a FreeBSD vendor which conveniently forgot a browser > > can run on FreeBSD. > > > > What is FreeBSD market share? FreeBSD has no market share, as it does not participate in market measurements such as "units sold" or "licenses obtained". You cannot - I repeat: you _cannot_ tell the number of FreeBSD installations. You can hardly guess it. The reason is simple: As I said, FreeBSD does not count "units sold" or "licenses obtained", so all the installations made do not increase any numbers. Additionally, FreeBSD is being used in non-PC and non-server systems, such as embedded solutions, appliances, routers, switches, firewalls, IoT, and so on. You usually don't even _know_ if FreeBSD is running on a specific device you are using. The termini technic you are searching for are: 1. usage share = how many installations are present, how many people are using it, etc. 2. mind share = how many people or organisations are aware of FreeBSD existing Those are numbers you also can hardly guess, and they are still much more significant (especially no. 1) than market share. > Could be the market share of FreeBSD is so small it is not worth their time? The usage share (if you want to understand this as market share, or at least as an approximation) is not significant for the manufacturers producing those devices - and supplying the corresponding software. So it's simply not worth their time as it doesn't generate revenue that justifies that effort. > Maybe the FreeBSD developers are too abrasive? I don't think so. Typically developers invest their time in getting hardware running when the required specifications and documentation is made available, and some devices even get reverse-engineered support. > Or maybe some other reason? > Linux is everywhere so maybe that is why Linux gets all the glory? That is quite possible. Top computers are running Linux, top companies are using Linux. Linux runs PCs, servers, peripherial devices and appliances, so you could even say: Linux runs the whole Internet... so, yes, it actually is everywhere. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 18:06:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F1FE93626 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:06:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B79427AA60 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:06:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.195.18.98]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue104 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0MFKXk-1eIXYA1itw-00EO5N; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:06:38 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:06:37 +0100 From: Polytropon To: "Thomas Mueller" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here Message-Id: <20171210190637.fd648800.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <201712101747.vBAHlV7Z002410@r56.edvax.de> References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209142711.d5bd91b7.freebsd@edvax.de> <4b109558-8422-a62a-9c45-748e03efbfba@columbus.rr.com> <20171209202321.b9919fc3.freebsd@edvax.de> <201712101747.vBAHlV7Z002410@r56.edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:shjT1whFeAmWeeejX8BKwp+OMpx45+cBcpsvbJ0rPhcQQ7xkzf3 klOR2LjiezpRY4zHWpkPHONWXxlcm8XnnXyJYTboRBK/8ALMIaq3HaeOLBOrYoyM6wFxgAA Xffa/BGxVr0YnQsrjxcsf0pBLYHNHOgDUC9dS6ng0fM2nYpb3wBq2zwZvCjk273csabetzB GQriTh20ML+GHjTkzgvnQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:5o8LWUkmbnY=:j1VMRZHk3vVKS9KEk5k9pw 2xObQWhALpnG+7d8NOCDzdUQkeGi97TFNVgLMQ459ZGfo4MIE+RILu/MnqamysnacFYsl01dU MFVU/5+m6dkmev/kIn1jnUFHSewGt8OuPQnSyGTgb5a09gdhG+PmLEmg1SvzIHvhT37qGOCOa tAUaFgSNaSGNt7HABMrGXY6V6CeCVvSg4kUNKAROUAHJMGykjUtFsHD6zPXVyIPh7yV7I4KBW e0mbMYT+sYkkmE+ZyCC404xLXVws9Jy65N/nrG6kNYIiIVmwPx4S5MpLeIX2PSa4Kv8Q01iiQ HsUyTgI9K5q8jfCZe9vvNPevLFptMopmmS9k53kifEnZEK9U8AyoAOOYnJ3j9dV7yfHdAtMtr 5IG+Glxzw39sXc3/qMZ+o4Tojo0qCnpgvCcbvWHW+/q736tE0o6HUTP337dC/U0gNt2SonaNN kJWMGeu/1s9NKzhKlmfcWc/WFmul8RsQVdTs03Ib7LEHuqT/Z6fz6F6gxzMF18+yh9hxXBNK8 I8SwQbPZcK3XWLjdNzmF9MT0/AH8uxJjepvVJDJctSVWlzn+qv0lw1HfNJWcRCRelfmacNgXh JjE+pnH+40egcQsuP5jgSb87hB/+8A8tPXt/k2rPPA/X+o62/OtOBqVlTaIF/q8AGCiCpQMzE IRwFRVtnjXc08Szh0H7G2t9/CP4rZyDu8bVX5L8jEq2Acr+ZMB7HTNcxJ9VUAvOPYW59W07lG SsXuJpOaKIAyOicmojZmbg6IDfdANJJie5oHrLe/M770OnE2UKtnjb0fQ0o= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:06:50 -0000 On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:12:52 +0000, Thomas Mueller wrote: > from Polytropon: > > > Please allow me a few comments regarding your rant (which has > > some valid point, but in my opinion illustrates a little lack > > of understanding of how some things on FreeBSD work): > > > > They don't like to be called out or have some one be critcal of the > > > "new" flavor system or any "new" thing that comes down the pike. It has > > > caused a butt load of issues with my systems here. > > > In that case, "they" would have kicked me more than once for > > expressing that I don't like the sc -> vt transition (which, > > as I might mention again, is one of the biggest show stoppers, > > because vt isn't a fully working replacement of sc, and it > > can do only a fraction of what sc could, and even that only > > at bad quality, and it's hardly documented). Now let's see > > what happens. :-) > > I remember the switch to vt was necessary to enable xorg to work; > this is also true in NetBSD; they call it DRMKMS. Exactly that is my problem: When I wish to be able to use both X _and_ text mode, my only choice is vt (and vt is the default now, sc will probably be abolished and maybe removed soon). But vt is unusable (and hardly documented) for use as a sc replace- ment. That what I'm complaining about. > Copy-and-paste by mouse in FreeBSD double-spaces lines; mouse > on console does not work at all in NetBSD. I think this is due to the UTF-8 inclusion... hmmm... > In NetBSD, I like booting into a 240x67 console; I can work > better than with 80x25 or 80x30. Then you won't have a problem with vt. However, users with limited sight or those who require a text (!) screen of 80x25 in order to drive a hardware Braille "display" or voice will no longer be able to use those devices with vt. There simply isn't text mode anymore. The strangest observation: When I boot my system, it starts in 80x25 text mode, then the loader is running, also in the normal text mode, then the kernel will boot, still in 80x25, then the screen will go dark for 5+ seconds, and finally arrive in tiny crappy font which I can hardly read. Changing the font does not solve the problem. So if you want to get back to 80x25 you need to get the right combination of screen size, resolution, and font. And note for those using a CRT: It simply doesn't have a fixed size in pixels... Summary: Time to say goodbye to 80x25 text mode and concentrate on using X terminals - simply because when you're running vt, you can run X, and setting up readable terminal windows is much easier in X. I will now get kicked off the list because of complaining. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 18:11:14 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0A1E939FF for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:11:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E12D47AF04 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:11:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.195.18.98]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue104 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0MA6Q5-1eCmS83W7F-00BMDh for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:11:05 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:11:05 +0100 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need for video driver Message-Id: <20171210191105.69765076.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:YowMWX65/TCJWl0sOO6ALkpNSdvmNfpi0bQ/deWoIeIDBYnFbA6 aJ3B/qD7D99ngtpOh7DkNXOuTVKtVgvWBCw4iRCeniqX3est2SPY29hp4BVZlmQYfQDgFV8 /LkEuBtRUEaaCGHjnAl3VoBKsoOPkGfwedqjpGM83f6x91gD2Dgk5eNFofDvELiuAnYBe9f xd+31dwJYrJGx4RmpkAOQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:PyZGOtLnvN4=:85hYLxm+PxrxJt4zzQkMAQ gqSZAczg3maRwBc/SPpOkc8WXdkKTCsQFWM+1mhoKXNR5SUMsG780wadnm/dUEoPCJJD1TTFv C8NWyC98rtIq5u10gqt1nFtWznWBMvPYevTRArQ9fWlvqnMsEfYxzFQGCQaBzZ6G5Zxgp8jX6 hcIPdH7ET3FtoxeAyEGbjJPeA+wztDhQz7eNKG+PnGryDWP5R38LVf3oQsf1BwP+HKihXZMWo +sIfvZsARF6TFdudxbszVOyMwwEd2NGWopRAA25vCMy35tWvTqKzxRxprjOtIBgoQ+MnRYE3c UwbpwZ3KnXuH4FTOqJt22vrbN1mM1AmnjjiDjpjBrMn984oMzGp6QzkVIzBfXuJ9ZvifPVrh+ 4OAIaHW7lllmF+pC078SYSCgfHNH+Xrl1fgBgUqEanQBKAXSJRK9ARK/UXmQ9CMzmZUKMXH7l 2Z2skK/kKOwffEK7lRsIPfcHpKopkHcMz4N4PSsOlmloPlPZJ48ZTza7Ua95lxpKvxN1ha4eq sc44APfYJPeBUTP0a/JzfQoAkz6P6znDCarE2wEqimbJu8HVuJVEzcMAv7eVa7C5iTONlR64B 8xH3bRf4JHGNKery0TVqRHuwkLjXu4FjFB0/J6kKNWM4l9I3NN6vFU4u4wAYwSfsfojPb7bp9 EhNVz7BKWT9GN5a/nlHYyHbd3DBA/dgGQAmFAHWnAjEhofVl3kmVuYBTNVSNVQ7L0Vgp3EgyG O8h+ULzMqLmIDe339ylS+/NSghQHHmsdXYhS47mluA50x/IbnQwaPVPS5xc= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:11:14 -0000 On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:25:28 +0000, Carmel NY wrote: > I have an older system that has an NVIDIA video card. The system is > mainly used for storage and > as a mail server. Is there any advantage to installing the > "x11/nvidia-driver" port? > > vgapci0@pci0:1:0:0: class=0x030000 card=0x13023842 chip=0x10c310de rev=0xa2 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'NVIDIA Corporation' > device = 'GT218 [GeForce 8400 GS Rev. 3]' > class = display > subclass = VGA You say it's _mainly_ a server. If you want to use X simply for administration tasks (like controlling stuff through a web app), VESA should be fully sufficient. Only if you want to do things like extensive web browsing or desktop environments, it's worth comparing the VESA performance to that with nvidia-driver loaded. You will _then_ probably see an increase in speed. Of course, if you're not using X at all, there is _no_ advantage in loading the driver. If the system is being used as a server _only_, there usually isn't a point in having a GPU in the system at all, especially not a high-power nVidia device. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 18:34:33 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC34E94842 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:34:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vagabond@blackfoot.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F707BABC for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:34:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vagabond@blackfoot.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B8389E94840; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:34:33 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F0DE9483F for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:34:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vagabond@blackfoot.net) Received: from mx2.blackfoot.net (mx2.blackfoot.net [216.14.232.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94B347BABA for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:34:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vagabond@blackfoot.net) Received: from bmfe1.blackfoot.net ([66.109.128.161]) by mx2.blackfoot.net ({0885e9ce-1b01-11e7-852e-37eff1d936ea}) via TCP (outbound) with ESMTP id 20171210183058330_0000 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:30:58 -0700 X-RC-FROM: X-RC-RCPT: Received: from webmail.blackfoot.net (unknown [192.168.100.126]) by bmfe1.blackfoot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D4240362 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:29:55 -0700 (MST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:29:55 -0700 From: vagabond To: Freebsd Questions Subject: Need help getting crash dump Message-ID: <635e8b5a7a1327165c8b12a0ff4ebf4d@blackfoot.net> X-Sender: vagabond@blackfoot.net User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.1.3 X-MAG-OUTBOUND: blackfoot.redcondor.net@66.109.128.161/32 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:34:33 -0000 Having trouble getting system dump after a (repeatable) crash. 10.3-RELEASE-p20 FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p20 #0: Wed Jul 12 03:13:07 UTC 2017 root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr /src/sys/GENERIC amd64 I originally had crash dumps disabled, so changed dumpdev="NO" to "AUTO" in rc.conf but still no dump in /var/crash after a crash and reboot. only thing in /var/crash is minfree, which says "2048" On boot I see the message "No suitable dump device was found" which I presume is the problem. An issue may be my sys config, as /tmp and swap are memdisks. Not sure how or if I can modify fstab or the config to get swap on disk for a crash dump save since the disk has no swap or tmp partitions. From fstab: /dev/ufs/hd250G1root / ufs rw,noatime 1 1 /dev/ufs/hd250G1var /var ufs rw,noatime 2 2 /dev/ufs/hd250G1usr /usr ufs rw,noatime 7 3 tmpfs /tmp tmpfs rw,mode=01777 0 0 md99 none swap sw,file=/usr/swap/swap,late 0 0 # gpart show ada1 notes => 34 488397101 ada1 GPT (233G) 34 6 - free - (3.0K) 40 1024 1 freebsd-boot (512K) 1064 984 - free - (492K) 2048 8388608 2 freebsd-ufs (4.0G) (/root) 8390656 33554432 3 freebsd-ufs (16G) (/var) 41945088 446452047 4 freebsd-ufs (213G) (/usr) physical memory is 4G Thoughts on how to proceed? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 18:54:33 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03232E95CDD for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:54:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [204.107.128.30]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33347C6CA for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:54:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [198.74.231.63]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94CB66289B; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:54:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fledge.watson.org (doug@localhost.watson.org [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vBAIsUOK014517; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:54:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id vBAIsUB9014513; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:54:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from doug@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:54:30 -0500 (EST) From: doug Reply-To: doug@safeport.com To: Baho Utot cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New packaging approach In-Reply-To: <07f48e07-ce70-7a26-ea19-fd389375afb4@columbus.rr.com> Message-ID: References: <07f48e07-ce70-7a26-ea19-fd389375afb4@columbus.rr.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (BSF 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (fledge.watson.org [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 13:54:31 -0500 (EST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:54:33 -0000 On Sun, 10 Dec 2017, Baho Utot wrote: > On 12/10/2017 12:33 AM, DTD wrote: >> >> On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, Polytropon wrote: >> >>> However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will handle this. As >>> you might have read, pkg will be used for installing and upgrading OS >>> files in the future, so there will not be the big difference >>> "freebsd-update" and "pkg update" / "pkg upgrade". >> >> Where can I read about this? If this leads to dependency issues similar to >> those encountered with desktops, my reaction is more of 'oh s--t' rather >> then 'oh boy'. Back to the days when the odd or even versions numbers were >> for those of us (read me) who do not track Stable for similar reasons. >> > > The way the packaging of base is currently being done will*guarantee a great > level of OH SHIT. First, I will qualify my comments by saying I am an end user. I did take Kurt McKusick's internals course a decade or so ago. Never ended up going anywhere with C but it was/is a good way to understand the workings and to be a better sysadmin. My experience with FreeBSD is that once release engineering was fully integrated into the upgrade process in the 4.x's, maybe the version 5 era (memory goes shortly after the tolerance for coding 12 hrs/day) I have never had any issues through cvsup, Subversion, and freebsd-update. If you follow the releases, they work. Maybe if you are developing a port or are a contributor to the base, things are not so rosy. But here in userland things are better managed than IBM did with MFT, MVT into MVS. I'm pretty sure those guys got paid pretty well and did not have to have a day job to do what they really wanted to. That's a really wordy way to say I disagree with the idea that development of the base OS has been mis-handled. In server-land since 4.5 no gotcha's here (as a keeper of servers). Things are a bit rougher if you want to run a FreeBSD workstation. On my current desktop I have gimp, libre office and my window manager of choice. 613 packages and items built from ports. The pkg frame-work is much improved over the old pkg_add et all. However, the number of combinations of {613,n} where n is the number of shared libraries, dynamic and static is a large number (finite but unbounded). And all involved have to get all the dependencies right to have zero problems. My concern is, if it works don't fix it. And, if you must, I would like to start getting up to speed on it ASAP. I have access to every freebsd list but have not found a discussion of this. My only request is to be pointed to where I can follow the discussion. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 19:48:02 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D214FE98DBA for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:48:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jd1008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91F867F4E9 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:48:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jd1008@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id d137so11191841itc.2 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:48:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/ABxMgCX0I5f0IP6+iknqp6sRGdU59ek5FHwHC3WxX0=; b=AJ2xNfnHRln8sEAtVP9CV+x993kDbSVfz+xd/fn7IHmyPAMDHklYDQKY6eO03ZDVlC 37ejjRSLGi7I+kis8iaYCOVqr+dwIu0oc7v0QqOe9gHAl3hrku2lvVFWHcyifS9EHJSx 08aHruQRqrursS4PFNXKvL1WG2nz+vpKnpRF2QA09zktwt8Nxdq8tSyBvZ2mBR6BzwAa aTXjD10uRjCB38xi35aKx/1C0vu+1ljbxG1eLhsS6Fo6CQHdumWDi0MXsi2uGvIzTjbF CHHoo7vgRyc2C7DqbPlu9woZW5/BqPAgyxW8hR9wq0dFZyWWPhTHHBzVSInOJ4bT+Loi tIpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/ABxMgCX0I5f0IP6+iknqp6sRGdU59ek5FHwHC3WxX0=; b=l4CumW0bQ1+e89qT1uRotp7VOn3CzxmnXcmxIw8+7rGt0veRmIxJ6VwyJU7rBT/nAd ultlwYsROBAvrSo5MDyQZd515P20ipRQW48mVwnhCyhPnwtm9ywmd54t13yX0dHp7fCh Hd2m0jvzMrs/kepHgurOrLcm5OkOwzL6/NUiiI+2TwoNAKTm3yjupgu1pkJJyiz7Vki2 9Rn3A/6EiW3IU5HBcsZst6yWXWLqDwi0xMnl+hNdi+B7M0eVxyy6Q4Rm50pG2TSshD5T 5fq4Jzm67KKvHXfqGKR0uyB6gPpQiiRW3r8Sd5YREvtA76jhFnxeHCDmKHB7CXmgVlzW JeXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLcZeQ08VovFX1mORJRW3q6gzAQX3v+oeBXqIJfiTPFTs3KDgbl 8BdRoKNGT9lSfPLWxsybCn718A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbURFPz1QVgYwpwyAhLFzA+pR2RC/+7i+t/v9rHpehYGmXJsQAdBr+3z4l0pRE0E1IEt097AQ== X-Received: by 10.36.48.74 with SMTP id q71mr15998693itq.95.1512935281807; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (50-243-4-3-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.243.4.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id c196sm5651903ioc.55.2017.12.10.11.48.00 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:48:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:48:55 -0700 From: JD User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:48:02 -0000 On 12/09/2017 08:13 PM, Baho Utot wrote: > On 12/9/2017 9:45 PM, Jan Beich wrote: >> Shane Ambler writes: >> >>> On 04/12/2017 21:19, galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote: >>>>> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me >>>>> the real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under >>>> Arrogance would be my guess. >>> The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we should be >>> able to run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps. >> Modern CUDA toolkit is 64bit but runtime only works on 32bit (bug >> 206711). >> Building as -m32 is probably still possible but may not fit all >> workloads >> nor run as fast. >> >>>>> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting >>>>> supported shortly? >>>> Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just >>>> not to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and >>>> unwillingness to disclose details of their hardware was always much >>>> worse than that of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...). >>>> >>>> This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations. >>> I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev >>> at one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any >>> technical >>> reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into it. >>> Still hasn't helped any. >> Just like Vulkan, just like KMS, just like encoding/capture >> acceleration. >> NVIDIA always conveniently forgets about FreeBSD. However, the ailment >> isn't really specific to NVIDIA but affects most binary blob vendors. >> For one, Widevine CDM is maintained by Google but EME itself was pushed >> to W3C by Netflix, a FreeBSD vendor which conveniently forgot a browser >> can run on FreeBSD. >> > > What is FreeBSD market share? > Could be the market share of FreeBSD is so small it is not worth their > time? > Maybe the FreeBSD developers are too abrasive? > Or maybe some other reason? > Linux is everywhere so maybe that is why Linux gets all the glory? It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small installed base. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 19:57:48 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E403E99610 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:57:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from robert@webtent.org) Received: from mx2.webtent.net (mx2.webtent.net [216.139.202.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29827FFA6 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:57:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from robert@webtent.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.webtent.net (WebTent ESMTP Postfix Internet Mail Exchange) with ESMTP id 82DFED7BBF for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx2.webtent.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx2.webtent.net [127.0.0.1]) (maiad, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12357-06 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.1.112] (media.rfitz.com [96.254.71.164]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: robert@mx2.webtent.net) by mx2.webtent.net (WebTent ESMTP Postfix Internet Mail Exchange) with ESMTPSA id 0DFD3D7979 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:52:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5A2D9082.9060706@webtent.org> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:52:34 -0500 From: Robert Fitzpatrick User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Windows/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Subject: Boot issue after upgrade Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: WebTent Mailguard 1.0.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 19:57:48 -0000 Since I upgraded a server from FreeBSD 10.1 to 10.4, it no longer boots to the standard BSD menu. Instead, it kicks me to an OK prompt where I have to 'set currdev=disk0s1a', then boot. How can I get my automatic boot menu back? -- Robert From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 20:27:45 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AE8E9A9E5 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:27:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from bca5.email-od.com (bca5.email-od.com [207.246.239.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C938718D0 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:27:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1512937668; x=1515529668; h=x-thread-info:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0YhgDGmwwH2rOOifMJfgNmw8p7e6Irh+5RzfebH7gVg=; b=TkUc3sjWwV8LcI4jXmjeAQZkLQsAlh4p4Vde8JH973yvWjwST1nU2pGjXd3QdTqVNZ88H6g1SgSuf5Ahn3PkJAeRFMFv7AXJnGAfixI/t/HXMI1unQqDadqt880bKM5Dv93FqzTW6B/ypuUBJHP944gHZbSpvk6idlcq08ZidlM= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi44MTAwMDAwMDY2NTZjYy5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r3.h.in.socketlabs.com (r3.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.13]) by bca2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:27:38 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [89.127.62.20]) by r3.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:27:35 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.89 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1eO8CD-000Fpr-Cd for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:27:33 +0000 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:27:33 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD Message-Id: <20171210202733.82d271c7b45a85f28b5ff46c@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.6.0 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:27:45 -0000 On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:48:55 -0700 JD wrote: > It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers > will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small > installed base. People have been saying things like that about FreeBSD for the last twenty years, it's still going strong. Developers spend time on FreeBSD because they want FreeBSD, they don't really care how many other people want it as well so long as there are enough people interested in developing it to keep it going and improving. Companies like nVidia do care about market share, they know that if they provide Linux support it will make a noticeable difference to their sales but FreeBSD support probably won't. It seems very likely (but impossible to tell for sure) that the installed base of FreeBSD is larger today than it was when ftp.cdrom.com held the record for the busiest ftp site a couple of decades ago. However the installed base of Linux is far larger than it was then (larger than the installed base of any other OS if you include Android as a flavour of Linux). -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 20:31:32 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5EAE9AD71 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:31:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x229.google.com (mail-it0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 741D81D3F for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:31:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x229.google.com with SMTP id b5so11416821itc.3 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:31:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dO+/CKyOu66/qaCRZX/nA175O6DbliW6jCAnEXPqpw0=; b=WzutBBIYwPvwp65G5CEFWHj1Ce52U0Kjxbi43RqBys5PzsYJl+IFEsXedQLUYx1aAx KNcRZ1rrh3BrkimKpbB6pcDPJIVvYDUnSdcG7+o7w4ZgrZ1sEtvjISTZNtqkOlfKatZS TUOAsIMHnvgroHP0MKe7Kx9h2bVyEjYF17VLlBEZ9b4UUgl26uuvLFmrhk9+qqEpLUH0 dJqFhITjz0+hFsvRB1l3IdMBz5biUOjUTXCpo4EqJBny5U4m2Yem7Ie7dWxTjnLJIaPl zSMA7pJnlXJ4aiQTvVsG2Etm9j0Z9jFjvxZVpLN0im/f7HZ3KWk/87ee/c409nGeXpKj QNCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dO+/CKyOu66/qaCRZX/nA175O6DbliW6jCAnEXPqpw0=; b=I25ft1XlMe1KzCCh+LHlSPtsPBbcDoz9O/fl6ushsCU2IllCgDjOZnVmZT6QQ90XZ8 LNNSKANRXIw7yMpFk4GvfVpwNBmpdamhj8V+w0K4ne3w/zYDPC/lmn2MfN69KW7hdAus UhQtR5WaL9OQDXTGHoLbj+hc61Bb1fY5cCh+nFm2y7umugi2nTnj1XKtAnUDky2i24gQ r1I60U12cySOtNJXIuT6KzJ2GGAKuXcJ3/GogOBLwQZ14n5SFCRuKWdjopZDPRf9Gk7S VQbxbq3KROxhXgcXpEtSRKl7kx11VI5rDdb9MQsBFj8hdAzcGec5RxQwePOic2ALMFWn EUbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mI3QdCvsOE6hR/gkeaFIddnxcyhKA3awcLK6o6lY0rlrCYy9i72 tXVBaCr09ztOipUAa4cOFEfZsXjfAWCaiauztpnFctaZ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMaUI1Y43I4tV/bvbZOIp64hjvG5cUkcuKGukcdk4RN6h2ivFOVOvSKdRc9F6wy4wUsII5CaxHrEoDj0oBZSNYI= X-Received: by 10.36.221.147 with SMTP id t141mr14535535itf.140.1512937891777; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:31:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.11.31 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:31:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20171210202733.82d271c7b45a85f28b5ff46c@sohara.org> References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> <20171210202733.82d271c7b45a85f28b5ff46c@sohara.org> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 04:31:31 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:31:32 -0000 On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 4:27 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:48:55 -0700 > JD wrote: > > > It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers > > will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small > > installed base. > > People have been saying things like that about FreeBSD for the last > twenty years, it's still going strong. > > Developers spend time on FreeBSD because they want FreeBSD, they > don't really care how many other people want it as well so long as there > are enough people interested in developing it to keep it going and > improving. > > Companies like nVidia do care about market share, they know that if > they provide Linux support it will make a noticeable difference to their > sales but FreeBSD support probably won't. > > It seems very likely (but impossible to tell for sure) that the > installed base of FreeBSD is larger today than it was when ftp.cdrom.com > held the record for the busiest ftp site a couple of decades ago. However > the installed base of Linux is far larger than it was then (larger than the > installed base of any other OS if you include Android as a flavour of > Linux). > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > NVidia just Loves Open Source, even Linux: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oniC93r2o9I So much they wrap windows binaries and toss them off to Linux. Ask those Linux Nouveau guys just how much love NVidia shows them. You have two options, fix it or let it be. What's with kicking up all the dust? Can't fix it, go do something productive and learn. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 20:44:40 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3BEE9B773 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:44:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41B062922 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:44:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id O8PdeU0p1fiK5O8PfeAMGp; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:41:28 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eO8Sc-0008MP-3R; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:44:30 +0000 Subject: Re: New packaging approach To: doug@safeport.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <07f48e07-ce70-7a26-ea19-fd389375afb4@columbus.rr.com> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: <1c6fbb48-6029-2d93-8fff-675ef800b3c2@columbus.rr.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:44:24 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJYKATgGC4gktX4mWEp7lZamIcuuzQ04L1+jTzEuozWFfgQK8Jr1luF/MT99M5mUI9AQbnNkdBTZciOH/sW6Z2MWpqeE+dSt6YaE9pWivwFM60ZtZJG5 ZvS2FdJ8+5hqqSk5Peq5GjAy/E4ldoquQWc+3FORfftXj2t3l6m1tXIGjj29+p1i60+eXB1FCn9Ynd7iA4qZawFrYFyFwjGZa6L6pOTocz3GNDYE/wlpWR6/ X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:44:40 -0000 On 12/10/2017 1:54 PM, doug wrote: > > On Sun, 10 Dec 2017, Baho Utot wrote: > >> On 12/10/2017 12:33 AM, DTD wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, Polytropon wrote: >>> >>>> However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will handle >>>> this. As you might have read, pkg will be used for installing and >>>> upgrading OS files in the future, so there will not be the big >>>> difference "freebsd-update" and "pkg update" / "pkg upgrade". >>> >>> Where can I read about this? If this leads to dependency issues >>> similar to those encountered with desktops, my reaction is more of >>> 'oh s--t' rather then 'oh boy'. Back to the days when the odd or >>> even versions numbers were for those of us (read me) who do not >>> track Stable for similar reasons. >>> >> >> The way the packaging of base is currently being done will*guarantee >> a great level of OH SHIT. > > First, I will qualify my comments by saying I am an end user. I did > take Kurt McKusick's internals course a decade or so ago. Never ended > up going anywhere with C but it was/is a good way to understand the > workings and to be a better sysadmin. My experience with FreeBSD is > that once release engineering was fully integrated into the upgrade > process in the 4.x's, maybe the version 5 era (memory goes shortly > after the tolerance for coding 12 hrs/day) I have never had any issues > through cvsup, Subversion, and freebsd-update. If you follow the > releases, they work. Maybe if you are developing a port or are a > contributor to the base, things are not so rosy. But here in userland > things are better managed than IBM did with MFT, MVT into MVS. I'm > pretty sure those guys got paid pretty well and did not have to have a > day job to do what they really wanted to. > > That's a really wordy way to say I disagree with the idea that > development of the base OS has been mis-handled. In server-land since > 4.5 no gotcha's here (as a keeper of servers). Things are a bit > rougher if you want to run a FreeBSD workstation. On my current > desktop I have gimp, libre office and my window manager of choice. 613 > packages and items built from ports. The pkg frame-work is much > improved over the old pkg_add et all. However, the number of > combinations of {613,n} where n is the number of shared libraries, > dynamic and static is a large number (finite but unbounded). And all > involved have to get all the dependencies right to have zero problems. > > My concern is, if it works don't fix it. And, if you must, I would > like to start getting up to speed on it ASAP. I have access to every > freebsd list but have not found a discussion of this. My only request > is to be pointed to where I can follow the discussion. Have you ever used the "packaged base" If not you don't have a clue to just how bad it is From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 20:47:29 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D00E9B9F7 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:47:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02C0C2C6D for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:47:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id O8VLeAOkodX1SO8VOeH7Ep; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:47:22 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eO8VL-0008N4-HZ for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:47:19 +0000 Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:47:14 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfILXx0cjgZUsWhKZLWGN/fANML9FaVPKAC9htM2TLCDA4lGr3izStlUtzuruq+9ARCfuHrjy2SlRGEfZMHPmAxAAhVVCDi1bZShmz4Z67dR6LzoUBjLw iRiSmh8Vv85IpssCYw/LwdinyZcp/gvLpVIsfLPcpav5xGcuL7EoFoyQ5VOFbgqMD2DD/LY2z6H0nl2AChQ0dn2RY4XtW9R951I= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:47:29 -0000 On 12/10/2017 2:48 PM, JD wrote: > > > On 12/09/2017 08:13 PM, Baho Utot wrote: >> On 12/9/2017 9:45 PM, Jan Beich wrote: >>> Shane Ambler writes: >>> >>>> On 04/12/2017 21:19, galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mon, December 4, 2017 4:24 am, Carmel NY wrote: >>>>>> Out of morbid curiosity, I was wondering if anyone could tell me >>>>>> the real reason that Nvidia does not support CUDA under >>>>> Arrogance would be my guess. >>>> The morbid part is that they give us the linux libcuda, so we >>>> should be >>>> able to run linux binaries that use cuda, just not native apps. >>> Modern CUDA toolkit is 64bit but runtime only works on 32bit (bug >>> 206711). >>> Building as -m32 is probably still possible but may not fit all >>> workloads >>> nor run as fast. >>> >>>>>> FreeBSD? Also, what are the realistic expectations for it getting >>>>>> supported shortly? >>>>> Zero is my estimate. The way to let one's steam about them is just >>>>> not to buy ther hardware. Their attitude to open sourse and >>>>> unwillingness to disclose details of their hardware was always much >>>>> worse than that of their competitors (ATI/AMD, matrox...). >>>>> >>>>> This is just my opinion based on my subjective observations. >>>> I'm sure on an episode of bsdnow, they mentioned asking an nvidia dev >>>> at one of the conferences and they said there shouldn't be any >>>> technical >>>> reason, it just isn't enabled in the build and they would look into >>>> it. >>>> Still hasn't helped any. >>> Just like Vulkan, just like KMS, just like encoding/capture >>> acceleration. >>> NVIDIA always conveniently forgets about FreeBSD. However, the ailment >>> isn't really specific to NVIDIA but affects most binary blob vendors. >>> For one, Widevine CDM is maintained by Google but EME itself was pushed >>> to W3C by Netflix, a FreeBSD vendor which conveniently forgot a browser >>> can run on FreeBSD. >>> >> >> What is FreeBSD market share? >> Could be the market share of FreeBSD is so small it is not worth >> their time? >> Maybe the FreeBSD developers are too abrasive? >> Or maybe some other reason? >> Linux is everywhere so maybe that is why Linux gets all the glory? > It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers > will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small > installed base. exactly my point.  Plus the way development is proceeding it make for sure that freebsd will bite the dust.  It really does not offer anything that other os already have From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 20:48:07 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14590E9BAA8 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:48:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D77AB2D5A for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:48:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id O8W3eAQw4dX1SO8W6eH7Wu; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:48:06 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eO8W3-0008NH-Lx for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:48:03 +0000 Subject: Re: Boot issue after upgrade To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <5A2D9082.9060706@webtent.org> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:47:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5A2D9082.9060706@webtent.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfFEZUGIDA1rpS6pxvL0r97EBvn54YbFMuZEJJUUsiV7EVNj01UECDaChiEoWxCmnnqXosrGCL7i6c+xMfKNfYY6/4JzlH5pIwJkbOHdks5MtnBo+U4E2 sZdARjnSxAUyx3Ul1wcKx7wwAglWZlxhhDpBxbFvdLtU0Fb2dpIk/vqID8u0yPmpoVHTPo0qq4SyLkjnAJYzU3R1BqWyS/ipmFE= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:48:07 -0000 On 12/10/2017 2:52 PM, Robert Fitzpatrick via freebsd-questions wrote: > Since I upgraded a server from FreeBSD 10.1 to 10.4, it no longer > boots to the standard BSD menu. Instead, it kicks me to an OK prompt > where I have to 'set currdev=disk0s1a', then boot. How can I get my > automatic boot menu back? > And another bites the dust..... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 20:51:26 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFB5E9BCBA for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:51:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43BD3300E for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:51:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id O8ZAeAZymdX1SO8ZCeH8do; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:51:18 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eO8Z9-0008NU-Rz for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:51:15 +0000 Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> <20171210202733.82d271c7b45a85f28b5ff46c@sohara.org> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: <5c0045ec-099d-567e-a339-44b69a7fc302@columbus.rr.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:51:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171210202733.82d271c7b45a85f28b5ff46c@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfBeQqjJ1qgN+NQ74w8qGCtdz288PnNMxlM5EKUjkDHX9pbL6BLNSnozPOfVlIgW1czRbxGjFCM1/O/1H/Ub6YaA4QWPOaD4ctTetlBEVsSYXaRrOcCnx mnHdepOlrT+bVW/TK5wtC/RMiUy3yWW4033F3t08xbksM6/aETG/LmZARbFLFzOOJLWX+B0mq5xSmyyOc/wlCd4aYgWTBwlLp3c= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:51:26 -0000 On 12/10/2017 3:27 PM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:48:55 -0700 > JD wrote: > >> It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers >> will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small >> installed base. > People have been saying things like that about FreeBSD for the last > twenty years, it's still going strong. > > Developers spend time on FreeBSD because they want FreeBSD, they > don't really care how many other people want it as well so long as there > are enough people interested in developing it to keep it going and > improving. Except for the fact that the devs are always complaining about not having enough people to do the work.  That is why the posts almost always say patches are welcome or something simular. > Companies like nVidia do care about market share, they know that if > they provide Linux support it will make a noticeable difference to their > sales but FreeBSD support probably won't. > > It seems very likely (but impossible to tell for sure) that the > installed base of FreeBSD is larger today than it was when ftp.cdrom.com > held the record for the busiest ftp site a couple of decades ago. However > the installed base of Linux is far larger than it was then (larger than the > installed base of any other OS if you include Android as a flavour of > Linux). > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 20:53:00 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B20C1E9BF2A for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:53:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from ms-10.1blu.de (ms-10.1blu.de [178.254.4.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F13D33D9 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:53:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [93.209.225.78] (helo=localhost.unixarea.de) by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eO8ag-0003CR-RO; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:52:50 +0100 Received: from localhost.my.domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.unixarea.de (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPS id vBAKqoAv004568 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:52:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: (from guru@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.15.2/8.14.9/Submit) id vBAKqnDf004567; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:52:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: guru set sender to guru@unixarea.de using -f Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:52:49 +0100 From: Matthias Apitz To: Baho Utot Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD Message-ID: <20171210205249.GA4537@c720-r314251> Reply-To: Matthias Apitz Mail-Followup-To: Matthias Apitz , Baho Utot , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 12.0-CURRENT r314251 (amd64) X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. User-Agent: Mutt/1.8.0 (2017-02-23) X-Con-Id: 51246 X-Con-U: 0-guru X-Originating-IP: 93.209.225.78 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:53:00 -0000 --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable $ grep baho .spamassassin/user_prefs blacklist_from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com --=20 Matthias Apitz, =E2=9C=89 guru@unixarea.de, =E2=8C=82 http://www.unixarea.d= e/ =F0=9F=93=B1 +49-176-38902045 Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEXmn7rBYYViyzy/vBR8z35Hb+nREFAlotnpsACgkQR8z35Hb+ nRGojhAAnvzCs8XK7m8iJM4J6AADR3O27zXnL+CyNuMN/dhFIBjLJwTP6Kmq+TRf APpX4pArim8+J+CiZ894tP516z97SOIJkchQ6xFRkmt1OjtmnTIns/D9muYJdxZj /NV789X4XM6e5BWY/m6nT8PEw+OTu7PuVfxCpepRzLKDmF5j3U5pM4H6V+L62lzH YXx/6KZ+uavAR8RnhNMmjSiy4SeMp3vcrBaw/S6DtaFuJgSD4THH9oRObR7/5Ly9 +aWCYf6bJHhKx3WCj3Q1ldtiH3scDnDfKK06px04SpiOfh3d37Zfr9ZNAqollIxC 9u8TTHuCqTWABO3zmwKgv/iAVHn1dj2oB6d8XatIAHqawOIc2s8mcZZfSQucxnf1 yTNUBFAfIGfYjF5Q6XMq26o2aOxrnBLmfUQv0U0JcpUd4IpPvtKvn0d3N4mmB5yY pz/1Ki5h/ffDuClMaaCnBACY2CmjyHhM+yLAcGE01kBnZhXWe8qXXLQNuKPEfSpG phh7zZLecko3HN6gGFP+4ilCZw8HJPH3PW2s9Efq7UvZE7S9x0AaDU5DjQJcmruY yLKvJ0kABl5lJyiRMOL3N5wZ3oFiXe555/0aPqH4d4iZYGPouU+LucjbZu76EsCg bkpkmnlSzRZmuOjcz3AFkG92Q4vO3Zqzh1j0IhTujBXk78q/L0w= =LoBQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 21:00:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5712E9C4C9 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:00:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gewasiuk@blackhorselabs.net) Received: from mail1.blackhorselabs.net (mail1.blackhorselabs.net [34.236.90.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3187395F for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:00:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gewasiuk@blackhorselabs.net) Received: by mail1.blackhorselabs.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id C6B9790BA0; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:00:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.blackhorselabs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C57C590B9F for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:00:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:00:42 -0500 (EST) From: Gordon Ewasiuk To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20171210202733.82d271c7b45a85f28b5ff46c@sohara.org> Message-ID: References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> <20171210202733.82d271c7b45a85f28b5ff46c@sohara.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (BSF 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:00:50 -0000 On Sun, 10 Dec 2017, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:48:55 -0700 > JD wrote: > >> It seems (to me) that fbsd might be dropped altogether, and developers >> will not waste their time and talent on an OS that has a very very small >> installed base. > > People have been saying things like that about FreeBSD for the last > twenty years, it's still going strong. What's that old joke... "Netcraft confirms FreeBSD is dying!" Yet, three of the top 10 most reliable web hosts, according to Netcraft, run FreeBSD as of Nov 2017. People have been saying FreeBSD is dying for ages now. Yet somehow, all these new features keep turning up in new releases and those brilliant FreeBSD developers keep delivering the goods time and time again. Also, consider that we've seen spinoffs from FreeBSD like the robust pfSense firewall and the feature-rich FreeNAS storage operating system. All this angst is much ado about nothing. There's a place for FreeBSD in our world. -Gordon From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 21:01:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A90E9C6B5 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:01:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta03.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 279DD3C33 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:01:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id O8kZeLm3XmG8pO8kceahvC; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:03:07 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eO8jD-0008OC-B6; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:01:39 +0000 Subject: Re: CUDA under FreeBSD To: Matthias Apitz , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <34331.107.77.207.211.1512384505.squirrel@cosmo.uchicago.edu> <0545699d-9df7-ced2-4990-27e3ecb8e531@ShaneWare.Biz> <5A2D8FA7.2030401@gmail.com> <20171210205249.GA4537@c720-r314251> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: <4133634e-36a3-8ded-ef0d-799861a6de4f@columbus.rr.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:01:34 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171210205249.GA4537@c720-r314251> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCjHID65UdJ7HlbOUI321n/lHdKotaI3uX0zUZQo+k1lCR5nXscWBS5Nesxngxf5uRzpPOV6p/ntKGVUtpydzOJPVQkowDxiiHbgEE2nF4Br71rsZVAa 4m3xo+LwnhzsOrI+OQT4yD/eY1ouwNUa3Iv/jwovuJKABRpBF0wqq4HDvAN1DgqQPYzPZdYtscTsFGDiPTGrx8j3Fax2t73zPpM= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:01:50 -0000 On 12/10/2017 3:52 PM, Matthias Apitz wrote: > $ grep baho .spamassassin/user_prefs > blacklist_from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com > > Thank you I will not have to listen to your nonsense From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 21:30:09 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02160E9D3C3 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:30:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic311-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic311-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.188.203]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8D4163CD6 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:30:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 7MtAxM8VM1kTUBjPIKA43jYyNpjNInHHMrmlq6hUB_S3drmTBFd6AsZwAzh9f9m 467F_Or9eWCk7rbiAwXD7urc679HsjDWrLJPJTRYSQbpnxtV1PD4mUpkqYp_udv1KLUi_0iQT0mp dEsZfwBYcKHOQ2ssjoKv3rEqMZUUcMeN_QotTvI0YGIOxmXBbuJ60xei7oIKyznGfpMQ4CQofJm3 mg.LTDwD3LwDQwzucdiReQv5EN4Bwtd9ICEDVJRsebq02NC28HyabifioViCoYfbv4PyvTrcukf6 ta0kqgcKFlfH9JsUSP4JB8VRdrFGt4IjYa3Rxng0x2DQA9fYs8ytHFXl92FlG4QAbl1BP9Q4sPC2 WlRv8Vz_nBEv_rTAnfgXiDaUiDfKxXY3twd2yIKIf3cvgCoZiQfQ1HiWSt5kRwexHSpgo_cAdI5u DE8qBhx3.hfI7TuYeLAGTPwThmYQnU0Hu8YrACVjTCGjYysKzYmAW7pK.HYSCNxkagfbN89LRJ5p hpnBvFLm9UH2_Fg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:30:02 +0000 Received: from smtp226.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (EHLO [192.168.0.203]) ([10.218.253.215]) by smtp404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (JAMES SMTP Server ) with ESMTPA ID -714381238; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:30:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Boot issue after upgrade To: Baho Utot , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <5A2D9082.9060706@webtent.org> From: Paul Pathiakis Message-ID: <55ae026c-8159-74a0-240c-351177964063@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:29:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 171210-2, 12/10/2017), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:30:09 -0000 On 12/10/2017 3:47 PM, Baho Utot wrote: > > > On 12/10/2017 2:52 PM, Robert Fitzpatrick via freebsd-questions wrote: >> Since I upgraded a server from FreeBSD 10.1 to 10.4, it no longer >> boots to the standard BSD menu. Instead, it kicks me to an OK prompt >> where I have to 'set currdev=disk0s1a', then boot. How can I get my >> automatic boot menu back? >> > > And another bites the dust..... > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Hi, I'm sorry, I've been watching your posts since they started.  I would suggest you go back to the Linux world and stay there. Having a computer science degree and understanding things at the bit level, as well as being a Sr. Sysadmin for over 25 years, quite frankly, a lot of the points you bring up are dramatically untrue.  I find your postings to be nothing more than trolling and bashing. If you choose to be constructive with solutions, I'm fine with that.  If you choose to be CONSTRUCTIVELY critical, I'm fine with that.  As for what the user base is, and the all the other things, including the above, you are grossly misinformed. I make my salary as a consultant on RHEL and other Linux variants.  Thank the Linux kernel and its supporting userland is so unstable and has so many CVEs.  It's going to keep me employed right through until retirement.  If they were to fix everything (package dependencies, etc), it would be so much easier to administer by all these clownish "I got me a certification" people. Darwin OS from Apple is 90% FreeBSD.  Apple is, by far, the largest shipper of *nix systems in the world.  Netflix... FreeBSD.  Do some research, FreeBSD is in more products than you imagine and outstrips the attempted in-roads by Linux products.... (all 250+ variant OS's based on the Linux kernel) I used to be from the era of Slackware.... The stability was terrible.  The Linux following continued to grow due to many who weren't trained in proper software process and procedure wanting to be 'Tech!  Me, too'.  'Lookee, I writes a program'.  To this day, I laugh at the fact that RHEL is 3-4 versions behind CentOS as, due to requiring stability, they can only move forward once it is at the stability level necessary of a true commercial product... aka pseudo-bulletproof... but still not at the quality of FreeBSD that can release a x.0 release and have it run flawlessly.  Also, the CVEs reported over a release lifetime is less than 10% of those of just the Linux kernel versus and ENTIRE OS that FreeBSD is, kernel and userland. The Linux kernel and it's userland just don't stack up.  I have non-tech people using TrueOS on their desks and small business using FreeBSD for their file servers.  They can't believe they run for a year before I do a simple 30 minute upgrade to the next rev... and it goes, again, flawlessly. I believe why people are banning you from lists (if they, indeed, are, which thid community is not in the habit of doing), is due to the toxic attitude you have and pointing out non-issues that are encountered by user error.  FreeBSD is rock solid, stable.  Sir, I find you uninformed and pointing at non-issues.  This list is here to help people with issues they encounter.  Please stop detracting from that purpose.  The list is here to help persons with their issues, not listen to trolling rants.  If you have a question, as per the title of the list, post it and it will be answered by a courteous, knowledgeable person.  (Since 1998, I have seen little in the way of non-courteous, egotistical, clueless responses from this community - The same cannot be said of the times I have to use Linux community lists.) Please, have a good day, but also, stop pointing at non-issues and saying "See, lookee!".  Anyone can break anything.  Anyone, uninformed, who wants to ramp fast and not read documentation, will have issues with anything.  This is akin to not reading the directions on how to put something from IKEA together.  Lack of reading directions usually leads to this list. P. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 22:16:47 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196C2E9ECD9 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 22:16:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79F0865768 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 22:16:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.195.18.98]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue002 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0Lyvo0-1fAR4i0CRs-0149c4; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:16:32 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:16:30 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Robert Fitzpatrick Cc: Robert Fitzpatrick via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Boot issue after upgrade Message-Id: <20171210231630.800ae3d8.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <5A2D9082.9060706@webtent.org> References: <5A2D9082.9060706@webtent.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:0BiTXZH0oYmuj8nyC3H5JoKMe0pAikAdjgaIjmddGVpg/BBj9Qy aL7Sr+P+86DxvBh3KTFjkJaJmS+asfXQsDdZm/Bcafs6FI+Qva/fPDbz4mJKQYYDRx35tYe N/Wk4Jg+mwXLlf82LKrJ3+PmZwAWy0zFOcOhNckcJWqiOAR5n1MyDQM5zjaraX2+yLMZlJ1 70uqzV7uWnMNu7N42kMAA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:WKq9p33ssFc=:dXVQ6z7158sAWDYMrj9L1v oUlSMmjckS8rDMUxUUgBfjPH3iRHtiwFKfDep83BoHGtQBWnjfnWZAhk4L7m7+Wil3OLVKFGo jOAdAKfcBBwICzLJy1iJeCepb3YWR2aHRuyFFHfXU8bWDzTjNY1y6AfoYPmv18gai2rMnMA0+ +WGjaFPAnTIJp1JDKycL6HR5o5F/BKBCXdF1XFPiGvONUAmPznPeWTKEm124juBqJ/tY1oazV VO5wyoWtysQ0bg21o+7Q6H0NHS5sZczCatQ9/J1DWHgGCYhV7o+ojBku/2z87JSc+y9tPXSNd D1rVPtEALJkANzAVGbCwb+iOdLOIYZShSo7EnH+6mm5JvCg0lzS2FHgmHIlnRAsJKlEErOuOC sRVsQtFfVaadXeXSCLze5mX1bjf3GUAtJ/tQxC94/ca/OKtIORKidsYx94N8/gIy6v5xRpMJY jMkXOxS8kXNE+2bRqRLOuOGuXsiCF7UAOzLDk3P7Vq9f/RVzNrRdxtGdoJePKanuLJLYf0I71 5fnzIGoPSkXZGhWnuNvAfvEe/FQvIt1XH/QMZpCZ1qugzHLSQ6Vu3wc2QFPAvoexcVL+xdsC0 Talav+kLrQV7bXIlWtV5ncsU8xbBmsMSmbMZWrL/289L8OIG0e2/YIBGg2c+NV94r0anws3S5 tjYSjRbW6jEAXmwta8xqYBU0f9qhbxMU/N5vD8s4TtTQOyGqf9Ln2mSYUWUChzS97AGMsuf4Q hI+iuYsSY/yLY7vRzkgOK9rPlX5yAsKzZTLzvLQwUUwmIOhMyPST2kUX1WM= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 22:16:47 -0000 On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:52:34 -0500, Robert Fitzpatrick via freebsd-questions wrote: > Since I upgraded a server from FreeBSD 10.1 to 10.4, it no longer boots > to the standard BSD menu. Instead, it kicks me to an OK prompt where I > have to 'set currdev=disk0s1a', then boot. How can I get my automatic > boot menu back? The prompt you're seeing indicates that the boot process has been interrupted prior to the loader (that displays the BSD boot menu). Somehow your boot code got damaged, so the device to boot from needs to be entered manually. Depending on disk partitioning, labels, or setup in general, I'd guess that you need to run "gpart bootcode" with the device to boot from. Compare with the list of commands here: http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/docs/html/disksetup.html This should fix your problem. Still, I cannot tell you why the required information from the 1st boot stage has been lost... For further reference: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/boot-introduction.html Note that fdisk is still mentioned here. It will usually still work, but using gpart is today's fashion. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 22:47:23 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A32E9F876 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 22:47:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sysadmin@grouchysysadmin.com) Received: from outbound00.knthost.com (outbound00.knthost.com [209.195.10.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14D4C666B0 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 22:47:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sysadmin@grouchysysadmin.com) Reply-To: sysadmin@i.grouchysysadmin.com DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 outbound00.knthost.com C03DF4636E DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=grouchysysadmin.com; s=default; t=1512945689; bh=uodvtXA38K4RTUVqPUFbShjJuqOuEzwIF2s2RP6J/Co=; h=Reply-To:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=CUrYqXOreC3vGZMTu+OK+OdRIC/L+sRWOY21zscLlGYMw67nKfiu2IMLDpUtWRizi W0AM3OqpF7fJRl/h8ZASpphmw0i54PphbQU4obuqxpQs1WUam0HMRB1XuOnZjOleT6 nva4h3BShLmksDZD0G/QaBhqi6ERWD/aZ0uZeAmaEFDO2pT8/vlPRZJwvajB+6tzNC nqYxDIDJbbwkbcXRibWJPmRjbI4ABuTOw7f+NgzMndLLZVgq9hoPpxDONxRjbWJuwh 3KUK0jkOerP8WN/yQxFOOqAiI4G7+RrgyuiUEWJmb/i3wY/RoV9MfNCMkBfgt4NMA/ SxL/WrCQ4He5Q== Subject: Re: New packaging approach To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <07f48e07-ce70-7a26-ea19-fd389375afb4@columbus.rr.com> <1c6fbb48-6029-2d93-8fff-675ef800b3c2@columbus.rr.com> From: Grouchy Sysadmin Message-ID: <483d6c09-af4e-5d4a-0681-79498fa3b756@grouchysysadmin.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 16:41:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1c6fbb48-6029-2d93-8fff-675ef800b3c2@columbus.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 22:47:23 -0000 On 12/10/2017 02:44 PM, Baho Utot wrote: > > On 12/10/2017 1:54 PM, doug wrote: >> >> On Sun, 10 Dec 2017, Baho Utot wrote: >> >>> On 12/10/2017 12:33 AM, DTD wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, Polytropon wrote: >>>> >>>>> However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will handle >>>>> this. As you might have read, pkg will be used for installing and >>>>> upgrading OS files in the future, so there will not be the big >>>>> difference "freebsd-update" and "pkg update" / "pkg upgrade". >>>> >>>> Where can I read about this? If this leads to dependency issues >>>> similar to those encountered with desktops, my reaction is more of >>>> 'oh s--t' rather then 'oh boy'. Back to the days when the odd or >>>> even versions numbers were for those of us (read me) who do not >>>> track Stable for similar reasons. >>>> >>> >>> The way the packaging of base is currently being done will*guarantee >>> a great level of OH SHIT. >> >> First, I will qualify my comments by saying I am an end user. I did >> take Kurt McKusick's internals course a decade or so ago. Never ended >> up going anywhere with C but it was/is a good way to understand the >> workings and to be a better sysadmin. My experience with FreeBSD is >> that once release engineering was fully integrated into the upgrade >> process in the 4.x's, maybe the version 5 era (memory goes shortly >> after the tolerance for coding 12 hrs/day) I have never had any >> issues through cvsup, Subversion, and freebsd-update. If you follow >> the releases, they work. Maybe if you are developing a port or are a >> contributor to the base, things are not so rosy. But here in userland >> things are better managed than IBM did with MFT, MVT into MVS. I'm >> pretty sure those guys got paid pretty well and did not have to have >> a day job to do what they really wanted to. >> >> That's a really wordy way to say I disagree with the idea that >> development of the base OS has been mis-handled. In server-land since >> 4.5 no gotcha's here (as a keeper of servers). Things are a bit >> rougher if you want to run a FreeBSD workstation. On my current >> desktop I have gimp, libre office and my window manager of choice. >> 613 packages and items built from ports. The pkg frame-work is much >> improved over the old pkg_add et all. However, the number of >> combinations of {613,n} where n is the number of shared libraries, >> dynamic and static is a large number (finite but unbounded). And all >> involved have to get all the dependencies right to have zero problems. >> >> My concern is, if it works don't fix it. And, if you must, I would >> like to start getting up to speed on it ASAP. I have access to every >> freebsd list but have not found a discussion of this. My only request >> is to be pointed to where I can follow the discussion. > > Have you ever used the "packaged base" If not you don't have a clue to > just how bad it is > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Perhaps https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase would help shed some light on things. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 23:05:30 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F2AEA0665 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:05:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DDF16750F for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:05:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id OAezeGs6idX1SOAf1eI6cz; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:05:28 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eOAey-0008Qi-Ra for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:05:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Boot issue after upgrade To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <5A2D9082.9060706@webtent.org> <55ae026c-8159-74a0-240c-351177964063@yahoo.com> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: <2b9077a1-4e9d-67a6-96c4-ee042881f668@columbus.rr.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:05:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <55ae026c-8159-74a0-240c-351177964063@yahoo.com> Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfPJa0H8bDXMPVrkGnFFSUaTItWUaPJKb/5UbpT+ReJJO334fMbvJriYpVAh/36ZFu/F/jdgTDUAt22ymxCLeWufU+6TTd6ttMnmFIksmKSFtsr6wJrmw wfmrvZmPhmu/SPbP6kntB5Rv76tXkgcz3n7etaTRX2K1GqcLwcC2nhkp4sfHCUGUcUC2pXk8SuuSuPAtz7KL8MUQKzMOiY1O0Ec= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:05:30 -0000 On 12/10/2017 4:29 PM, Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questions wrote: > > On 12/10/2017 3:47 PM, Baho Utot wrote: >> >> >> On 12/10/2017 2:52 PM, Robert Fitzpatrick via freebsd-questions wrote: >>> Since I upgraded a server from FreeBSD 10.1 to 10.4, it no longer >>> boots to the standard BSD menu. Instead, it kicks me to an OK prompt >>> where I have to 'set currdev=disk0s1a', then boot. How can I get my >>> automatic boot menu back? >>> >> >> And another bites the dust..... >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Hi, > > I'm sorry, I've been watching your posts since they started.  I would > suggest you go back to the Linux world and stay there. Having a > computer science degree and understanding things at the bit level, as > well as being a Sr. Sysadmin for over 25 years, quite frankly, a lot > of the points you bring up are dramatically untrue.  I find your > postings to be nothing more than trolling and bashing. > Nothing of value here,  25 years BAH means nothing > If you choose to be constructive with solutions, I'm fine with that.  > If you choose to be CONSTRUCTIVELY critical, I'm fine with that.  As > for what the user base is, and the all the other things, including the > above, you are grossly misinformed. > > I make my salary as a consultant on RHEL and other Linux variants.  > Thank the Linux kernel and its supporting userland is so > unstable and has so many CVEs.  It's going to keep me employed right > through until retirement.  If they were to fix everything (package > dependencies, etc), it would be so much easier to administer by all > these clownish "I got me a certification" people. > > Darwin OS from Apple is 90% FreeBSD.  Apple is, by far, the largest > shipper of *nix systems in the world.  Netflix... FreeBSD.  Do some > research, FreeBSD is in more products than you imagine and outstrips > the attempted in-roads by Linux products.... (all 250+ variant OS's > based on the Linux kernel) > > I used to be from the era of Slackware.... The stability was > terrible.  The Linux following continued to grow due to many who > weren't trained in proper software process and procedure wanting to be > 'Tech!  Me, too'.  'Lookee, I writes a program'.  To this day, I laugh > at the fact that RHEL is 3-4 versions behind CentOS as, due to > requiring stability, they can only move forward once it is at the > stability level necessary of a true commercial product... aka > pseudo-bulletproof... but still not at the quality of FreeBSD that can > release a x.0 release and have it run flawlessly.  Also, the CVEs > reported over a release lifetime is less than 10% of those of just the > Linux kernel versus and ENTIRE OS that FreeBSD is, kernel and userland. > Well Centos is RHEL and CENTOS follows RHELL.  Looks like you know nothing about CENTOS From distrowatch CentOS is a distribution built from the source code of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. The CentOS project has announced the availability of a new update to the distribution, releasing CentOS 7-1708 which is derived from Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7.4. The list of changes in this update to version 7 is fairly conservative: "Since release 1503 CentOS 7 can report bugs directly to bugs.centos.org. Want to explain you post? > The Linux kernel and it's userland just don't stack up.  I have > non-tech people using TrueOS on their desks and small business using > FreeBSD for their file servers.  They can't believe they run for a > year before I do a simple 30 minute upgrade to the next rev... and it > goes, again, flawlessly. > Strawman pat yourself on the back > I believe why people are banning you from lists (if they, indeed, are, > which thid community is not in the habit of doing), is due to the > toxic attitude you have and pointing out non-issues that are > encountered by user error.  FreeBSD is rock solid, stable.  Sir, I > find you uninformed and pointing at non-issues.  This list is here to > help people with issues they encounter.  Please stop detracting from > that purpose.  The list is here to help persons with their issues, not > listen to trolling rants.  If you have a question, as per the title of > the list, post it and it will be answered by a courteous, > knowledgeable person.  (Since 1998, I have seen little in the way of > non-courteous, egotistical, clueless responses from this community - > The same cannot be said of the times I have to use Linux community > lists.) > Nothing here > Please, have a good day, but also, stop pointing at non-issues and > saying "See, lookee!".  Anyone can break anything.  Anyone, > uninformed, who wants to ramp fast and not read documentation, will > have issues with anything.  This is akin to not reading the directions > on how to put something from IKEA together.  Lack of reading > directions usually leads to this list. > > P. Ok I'll ask for the uptinth time How do you Boot ZFS raid,  this has been unanswered since 2013. Bet you you can not answer that. And if your up for it How to install Grub2 with WIN7 and ZFS RAID FreeBSD unanswered since 2013. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 10 23:10:12 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCB3EA0A49 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:10:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta03.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.225]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2900267AFC for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:10:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.81.207]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id OAkoeRoq7mG8pOAkrebdG7; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:11:29 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eOAjS-0008Qv-41 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:10:02 +0000 Subject: Re: New packaging approach To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <07f48e07-ce70-7a26-ea19-fd389375afb4@columbus.rr.com> <1c6fbb48-6029-2d93-8fff-675ef800b3c2@columbus.rr.com> <483d6c09-af4e-5d4a-0681-79498fa3b756@grouchysysadmin.com> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: <965a3439-1894-cf99-5c82-339ffe41f675@columbus.rr.com> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:09:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <483d6c09-af4e-5d4a-0681-79498fa3b756@grouchysysadmin.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNvzK3aM6+AVgb5iWZbMwI3x8toAVTBRm+/Rx08K2+R9vuMOV3lY1kMbQ1356rR8EVjYaZ3i4N5ds2izAH6i7rtApYeLaTCwtvMpHkqpc8Lxfsesvnav mRgu9SPpeMAa+n+yzTkHNP7Hz2hm4FDQdW7x4uuUeQhifIig/PM4d0qJGCKWcJ2ufn9SZll+H1jo8PYHJYOTP8VRmkwqsQ9opik= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:10:12 -0000 On 12/10/2017 5:41 PM, Grouchy Sysadmin wrote: > > > On 12/10/2017 02:44 PM, Baho Utot wrote: >> >> On 12/10/2017 1:54 PM, doug wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2017, Baho Utot wrote: >>> >>>> On 12/10/2017 12:33 AM, DTD wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, Polytropon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will handle >>>>>> this. As you might have read, pkg will be used for installing and >>>>>> upgrading OS files in the future, so there will not be the big >>>>>> difference "freebsd-update" and "pkg update" / "pkg upgrade". >>>>> >>>>> Where can I read about this? If this leads to dependency issues >>>>> similar to those encountered with desktops, my reaction is more of >>>>> 'oh s--t' rather then 'oh boy'. Back to the days when the odd or >>>>> even versions numbers were for those of us (read me) who do not >>>>> track Stable for similar reasons. >>>>> >>>> >>>> The way the packaging of base is currently being done >>>> will*guarantee a great level of OH SHIT. >>> >>> First, I will qualify my comments by saying I am an end user. I did >>> take Kurt McKusick's internals course a decade or so ago. Never >>> ended up going anywhere with C but it was/is a good way to >>> understand the workings and to be a better sysadmin. My experience >>> with FreeBSD is that once release engineering was fully integrated >>> into the upgrade process in the 4.x's, maybe the version 5 era >>> (memory goes shortly after the tolerance for coding 12 hrs/day) I >>> have never had any issues through cvsup, Subversion, and >>> freebsd-update. If you follow the releases, they work. Maybe if you >>> are developing a port or are a contributor to the base, things are >>> not so rosy. But here in userland things are better managed than IBM >>> did with MFT, MVT into MVS. I'm pretty sure those guys got paid >>> pretty well and did not have to have a day job to do what they >>> really wanted to. >>> >>> That's a really wordy way to say I disagree with the idea that >>> development of the base OS has been mis-handled. In server-land >>> since 4.5 no gotcha's here (as a keeper of servers). Things are a >>> bit rougher if you want to run a FreeBSD workstation. On my current >>> desktop I have gimp, libre office and my window manager of choice. >>> 613 packages and items built from ports. The pkg frame-work is much >>> improved over the old pkg_add et all. However, the number of >>> combinations of {613,n} where n is the number of shared libraries, >>> dynamic and static is a large number (finite but unbounded). And all >>> involved have to get all the dependencies right to have zero problems. >>> >>> My concern is, if it works don't fix it. And, if you must, I would >>> like to start getting up to speed on it ASAP. I have access to every >>> freebsd list but have not found a discussion of this. My only >>> request is to be pointed to where I can follow the discussion. >> >> Have you ever used the "packaged base" If not you don't have a clue >> to just how bad it is >> >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Perhaps https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase would help shed some light on > things. Well just don't actually do what the PkgBase wiki tells you.....You'll be sorry. Also do a little reading from the wiki and ask your self how do you get rid of the terrible mess packaged base has made and return to the previous system.....That alone should keep you from trying it. I know how to return the system to the state before you did the packaged base stuff, and I can tell you it isn't easy. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 11 00:48:34 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E967E80E7C for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 00:48:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from garya@breakaway.dreamchaser.org) Received: from breakaway.dreamchaser.org (breakaway.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "breakaway.dreamchaser.org.", Issuer "breakaway.dreamchaser.org." (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B71C6A3A5 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 00:48:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from garya@breakaway.dreamchaser.org) Received: from breakaway.dreamchaser.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by breakaway.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id vBB0YSsT001199 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:34:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from garya@breakaway.dreamchaser.org) Received: (from garya@localhost) by breakaway.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vBB0YSQK001198 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:34:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from garya) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:34:28 -0700 (MST) From: Gary Aitken Message-Id: <201712110034.vBB0YSQK001198@breakaway.dreamchaser.org> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Thunderbird causing system crash, need guidance X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 00:48:34 -0000 Hi all, Looking for guidance diagnosing a system crash caused by attempting to start Thunderbird. 10.3-RELEASE-p20 FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p20 #0: Wed Jul 12 03:13:07 UTC 2017 root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr /src/sys/GENERIC amd64 After running flawlessly for over a month, I started having sluggish behavior. Since this is a known problem with firefox 56, I exited and restarted it several times over the course of a few days. Then yesterday (2017-12-08) the system hung and crashed. I have narrowed the cause down to Thunderbird 52.4.0, or at least something associated with it. The system + X seem to still run fine; openoffice, firefox, gimp. When I attempt to start t-bird the cursor disappears almost immediately, followed by a long wait with the display apparently frozen, and then results in a crash and reboot. It seems t-bird should crash/dump core without crashing the system if it was just a t-bird problem, even if it's a bad binary image? I originally had crash dumps disabled, so changed dumpdev="NO" to "AUTO" in rc.conf but still no dump in /var/crash only thing in /var/crash is minfree, which says "2048" At reboot, I see the message "No suitable dump device was found" so presumably that's the problem. It may be my sys config, as /tmp and swap are memdisks. The disk has no swap or tmp partition; I'm not sure how or if I can modify fstab or the config to get swap on disk for a dump. >From fstab: /dev/ufs/hd250G1root / ufs rw,noatime 1 1 /dev/ufs/hd250G1var /var ufs rw,noatime 2 2 /dev/ufs/hd250G1usr /usr ufs rw,noatime 7 3 tmpfs /tmp tmpfs rw,mode=01777 0 0 md99 none swap sw,file=/usr/swap/swap,late 0 0 /var is 16G It seems like it may be corrupted disk data, but I'm wondering if there's a good way to diagnose that. In ~/.thunderbird/xxx.default (profile) directory, the last date on a file is the "lock" symlink, from (I think) the first crash. Other files show times 27 min earlier, which may be the last time t-bird semi-successfully started up. Interestingly, deleting the "lock" symlink and attempting to restart t-bird results in the "lock" symlink being recreated with the same (old!) timestamp, Dec 8 21:08. There's a chance this is caused by an incompatible library; I've rebuilt and updated several ports over the past month, and I don't know if I restarted t-bird during that period. But again, I would expect t-bird to crash but not the system. Any and all thoughts welcome. Thanks, Gary From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 11 01:12:01 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0304E8198A for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 01:12:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from garya@nightmare.dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (ns.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D1F36AFCB for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 01:12:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from garya@nightmare.dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vBB0jHuk078477 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:45:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from garya@nightmare.dreamchaser.org) Received: (from garya@localhost) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id vBB0jCTQ078476 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:45:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from garya) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:45:12 -0700 (MST) From: Gary Aitken Message-Id: <201712110045.vBB0jCTQ078476@nightmare.dreamchaser.org> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Subject: Thunderbird causing system crash, need guidance X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (nightmare.dreamchaser.org [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:45:18 -0700 (MST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 01:12:01 -0000 Hi all, Looking for guidance diagnosing a system crash caused by attempting to start Thunderbird. 10.3-RELEASE-p20 FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p20 #0: Wed Jul 12 03:13:07 UTC 2017 root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr /src/sys/GENERIC amd64 After running flawlessly for over a month, I started having sluggish behavior. Since this is a known problem with firefox 56, I exited and restarted it several times over the course of a few days. Then yesterday (2017-12-08) the system hung and crashed. I have narrowed the cause down to Thunderbird 52.4.0, or at least something associated with it. The system + X seem to still run fine; openoffice, firefox, gimp. When I attempt to start t-bird the cursor disappears almost immediately, followed by a long wait with the display apparently frozen, and then results in a crash and reboot. It seems t-bird should crash/dump core without crashing the system if it was just a t-bird problem, even if it's a bad binary image? I originally had crash dumps disabled, so changed dumpdev="NO" to "AUTO" in rc.conf but still no dump in /var/crash only thing in /var/crash is minfree, which says "2048" At reboot, I see the message "No suitable dump device was found" so presumably that is the cause of the missing dump. It may be my sys config, as /tmp and swap are memdisks. The disk has no swap or tmp partition; I'm not sure how or if I can modify fstab or the config to get swap on disk for a dump. >From fstab: /dev/ufs/hd250G1root / ufs rw,noatime 1 1 /dev/ufs/hd250G1var /var ufs rw,noatime 2 2 /dev/ufs/hd250G1usr /usr ufs rw,noatime 7 3 tmpfs /tmp tmpfs rw,mode=01777 0 0 md99 none swap sw,file=/usr/swap/swap,late 0 0 /var is 16G It seems like it may be corrupted disk data, but I'm wondering if there's a good way to diagnose that. In ~/.thunderbird/xxx.default (profile) directory, the last date on a file is the "lock" symlink, from (I think) the first crash. Other files show times 27 min earlier, which may be the last time t-bird semi-successfully started up. Interestingly, deleting the "lock" symlink and attempting to restart t-bird results in the "lock" symlink being recreated with the same (old!) timestamp, Dec 8 21:08. There's a chance this is caused by an incompatible library; I've rebuilt and updated several ports over the past month, and I don't know if I restarted t-bird during that period. But again, I would expect t-bird to crash but not the system. Any and all thoughts welcome. Thanks, Gary From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 11 02:02:17 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF45E827FF for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 02:02:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71E826C2B2 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 02:02:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id m11so10698703iti.1 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:02:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rZQAD8fkk03olEdpZvYcyZ7Lci09gtw0B71MqQkc3GM=; b=I9TnGnS8xxfvXoJcewQdDaRj8A454MZSV0Fn8ZD8AxbfaWc1gdv+aYOrKFhvX2eUzc EhfZ6NZ74q3M2EOuqTtdTCDrPMw5lpMe2oKMgGOU1bKLvRQmrEdgVx04r4JNSIzpnevo Xj/+PJCFISmkeOgJoqYU3nwRw08/6ORGZ++t4xp7cqj/v9yhm1wJpZManIdcrWnPpBfv CD/3lRKBa7791BCu0IdQ73ndsPIbU0bxdSzAhUa3hH0rCtF8iuN9ogZOSnuBW47NDCuE sDjfQgoZ4K7gMhWwGOFMm1ETpEF0p5xGE1e9G+rOBfA0eQoFjkkvr2WeuGZmspPLVLQd 9tVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rZQAD8fkk03olEdpZvYcyZ7Lci09gtw0B71MqQkc3GM=; b=kxZgASFKbAdKQOMIUOMpSbUxXRUDymwikaaFU2uingh2jYbnuk2oCeKHbYTq7xYf2t /AvYmvTgyrqiucKmeaDPEN7NjXGSANk6wrfRiAkKMdne+aEoe9zZjJq3cPrB9wSCwchW 6w1aafPIPewQIWvqWjo0JcW7DjMu1DdRay6C/Am99BfGVhvAI/pJKVjwO9HxaAA3dQIB mLxpsl46ocKYj9aU9TNjEJcdzENkWYWKOyMJ9KniJN2+dz0uziWxQMpPEqRS7iiuEjb0 DLgL6ELlQoyop91qqlrn/fC8coGkR7/j5OgkNjcwlO9ON5hF7PcFTuK+aXrHLq7k4eoK uUbg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5uF9ufPRoQTD0zADIRbAxEPWhqKGatAVmQzSL/2u8BE4r7uucv rBwIXcLP5U6FAASL5tpVPgKQAkPjxWI189JkxKY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYwGszcnn+HEt7QUHm1sFI72VXRJu2cdEW1Sq+mrtEUl1DHeVf09hdVYAYjRwAyCZCFJ3xtQuDTLlquW4s410E= X-Received: by 10.107.175.165 with SMTP id p37mr54394923ioo.32.1512957736726; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:02:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.138.114 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:02:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201712110045.vBB0jCTQ078476@nightmare.dreamchaser.org> References: <201712110045.vBB0jCTQ078476@nightmare.dreamchaser.org> From: Adam Vande More Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 20:02:16 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Subject: Thunderbird causing system crash, need guidance To: Gary Aitken Cc: FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 02:02:17 -0000 On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Gary Aitken < garya@nightmare.dreamchaser.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Looking for guidance diagnosing a system crash caused by > attempting to start Thunderbird. > > 10.3-RELEASE-p20 FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE-p20 #0: Wed Jul 12 03:13:07 > UTC 2017 root@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr > /src/sys/GENERIC amd64 > > After running flawlessly for over a month, I started having > sluggish behavior. Since this is a known problem with firefox > 56, I exited and restarted it several times over the course of a > few days. Then yesterday (2017-12-08) the system hung and > crashed. > > I have narrowed the cause down to Thunderbird 52.4.0, or at least > something associated with it. > > The system + X seem to still run fine; openoffice, firefox, gimp. > When I attempt to start t-bird the cursor disappears almost > immediately, followed by a long wait with the display apparently > frozen, and then results in a crash and reboot. > > It seems t-bird should crash/dump core without crashing the > system if it was just a t-bird problem, even if it's a bad binary > image? > > I originally had crash dumps disabled, so changed > dumpdev="NO" to "AUTO" in rc.conf > but still no dump in /var/crash > only thing in /var/crash is minfree, which says "2048" > At reboot, I see the message > "No suitable dump device was found" > so presumably that is the cause of the missing dump. > It may be my sys config, as /tmp and swap are memdisks. > The disk has no swap or tmp partition; I'm not sure how or if I > can modify fstab or the config to get swap on disk for a dump. > From fstab: > /dev/ufs/hd250G1root / ufs rw,noatime 1 1 > /dev/ufs/hd250G1var /var ufs rw,noatime 2 2 > /dev/ufs/hd250G1usr /usr ufs rw,noatime 7 3 > tmpfs /tmp tmpfs rw,mode=01777 0 0 > md99 none swap sw,file=/usr/swap/swap,late 0 > 0 > /var is 16G > > It seems like it may be corrupted disk data, but I'm wondering if > there's a good way to diagnose that. > fsck(8) Your swap configuration is also mostly likely silly. If you need more performance, that's not the way to do it. -- Adam From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 11 03:00:12 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57988E83A86 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 03:00:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic309-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic309-15.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.129.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D1246DBE6 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 03:00:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: Yda8qugVM1mT9RGezd44jK6vlN8yuYSmmUW.Jotulw4rf89W9WdA7VzFDfYX_BQ lfzt8_.rNaWZBlirP6VMcLo1BkuN4MuyxgvqXcgeoBFol61gEhRkpcq8v5v.WeeQy91ejKnNCakF RBr8HE25BDHWY8_.axA2mMr7iLCz7B14weHA_Q65.YkQzjg_gWmce4y87_ap.aKDXiVlZ6odQK6c bX36x6a9AihHGqN13sWeei4Dsxhsd7amoAzAAAKWVuovrWHL4PaYhNqo5wgFoEW0qptjBEyOVPkW jh8gp0.9q_XZkNk1G8yg9BL_hya0bPUviIpKy7nqcN1X_ILYv9oy3M5ImG2SnfWOyfVSbxbWRpbD z9hgW33Gn_0j4sIlNUfpRlrPw.ZFD3hyJ9ASM0hwkvcqThB81ulJXm.3q7qXyu0l3AfTBEQaxyu5 knW7MMm7xqbTI.mjjN11wwKIOpWK8uy7FVk6UzGM4p4tGI0Ll_rDRwIhELQSkpk9YFEUbssQ0Q7G WdeMkLUTSQtxF6A-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 03:00:05 +0000 Received: from smtp102.rhel.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (EHLO [192.168.0.203]) ([98.139.230.207]) by smtp404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (JAMES SMTP Server ) with ESMTPA ID -1684319696; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 03:00:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Boot issue after upgrade To: Baho Utot , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <5A2D9082.9060706@webtent.org> <55ae026c-8159-74a0-240c-351177964063@yahoo.com> <2b9077a1-4e9d-67a6-96c4-ee042881f668@columbus.rr.com> From: Paul Pathiakis Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 22:00:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2b9077a1-4e9d-67a6-96c4-ee042881f668@columbus.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 171210-2, 12/10/2017), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 03:00:12 -0000 On 12/10/2017 6:05 PM, Baho Utot wrote: > On 12/10/2017 4:29 PM, Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questions wrote: >> >> On 12/10/2017 3:47 PM, Baho Utot wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 12/10/2017 2:52 PM, Robert Fitzpatrick via freebsd-questions wrote: >>>> Since I upgraded a server from FreeBSD 10.1 to 10.4, it no longer >>>> boots to the standard BSD menu. Instead, it kicks me to an OK >>>> prompt where I have to 'set currdev=disk0s1a', then boot. How can I >>>> get my automatic boot menu back? >>>> >>> >>> And another bites the dust..... >>> _______________________________________________ >>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >>> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >>> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm sorry, I've been watching your posts since they started.  I would >> suggest you go back to the Linux world and stay there. Having a >> computer science degree and understanding things at the bit level, as >> well as being a Sr. Sysadmin for over 25 years, quite frankly, a lot >> of the points you bring up are dramatically untrue.  I find your >> postings to be nothing more than trolling and bashing. >> > > Nothing of value here,  25 years BAH means nothing > And, again, you bash.  I think everyone can see the type of person you are. >> If you choose to be constructive with solutions, I'm fine with that.  >> If you choose to be CONSTRUCTIVELY critical, I'm fine with that.  As >> for what the user base is, and the all the other things, including >> the above, you are grossly misinformed. >> >> I make my salary as a consultant on RHEL and other Linux variants.  >> Thank the Linux kernel and its supporting userland is so >> unstable and has so many CVEs.  It's going to keep me employed right >> through until retirement.  If they were to fix everything (package >> dependencies, etc), it would be so much easier to administer by all >> these clownish "I got me a certification" people. >> >> Darwin OS from Apple is 90% FreeBSD.  Apple is, by far, the largest >> shipper of *nix systems in the world.  Netflix... FreeBSD.  Do some >> research, FreeBSD is in more products than you imagine and outstrips >> the attempted in-roads by Linux products.... (all 250+ variant OS's >> based on the Linux kernel) >> >> I used to be from the era of Slackware.... The stability was >> terrible.  The Linux following continued to grow due to many who >> weren't trained in proper software process and procedure wanting to >> be 'Tech!  Me, too'.  'Lookee, I writes a program'.  To this day, I >> laugh at the fact that RHEL is 3-4 versions behind CentOS as, due to >> requiring stability, they can only move forward once it is at the >> stability level necessary of a true commercial product... aka >> pseudo-bulletproof... but still not at the quality of FreeBSD that >> can release a x.0 release and have it run flawlessly.  Also, the CVEs >> reported over a release lifetime is less than 10% of those of just >> the Linux kernel versus and ENTIRE OS that FreeBSD is, kernel and >> userland. >> > > Well Centos is RHEL and CENTOS follows RHELL.  Looks like you know > nothing about CENTOS > > From distrowatch > CentOS is a distribution built from > the source code of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. The CentOS project has > announced the availability of a new update to the distribution, > releasing CentOS 7-1708 which is derived from Red Hat Enterprise Linux > 7.4. The list of changes in this update to version 7 is fairly > conservative: "Since release 1503 CentOS 7 can report bugs directly to > bugs.centos.org. > > Want to explain you post? > Yes, CentOS compiles from RH, however, all the most recent ported utilities come from cutting edge, not from RH.  It leads to instability.  RH stays with stuff that has stabilized and had the bugs shaken out.  They leave all of that to CentOS and Fedora before incorporating to RH. So, again, you show ignorance on something you claim to know so well. >> The Linux kernel and it's userland just don't stack up.  I have >> non-tech people using TrueOS on their desks and small business using >> FreeBSD for their file servers. They can't believe they run for a >> year before I do a simple 30 minute upgrade to the next rev... and it >> goes, again, flawlessly. >> > > Strawman pat yourself on the back > And, again, you attempt to demean and troll.  I believe this shows you for what you are. >> I believe why people are banning you from lists (if they, indeed, >> are, which thid community is not in the habit of doing), is due to >> the toxic attitude you have and pointing out non-issues that are >> encountered by user error. FreeBSD is rock solid, stable.  Sir, I >> find you uninformed and pointing at non-issues.  This list is here to >> help people with issues they encounter.  Please stop detracting from >> that purpose.  The list is here to help persons with their issues, >> not listen to trolling rants.  If you have a question, as per the >> title of the list, post it and it will be answered by a courteous, >> knowledgeable person.  (Since 1998, I have seen little in the way of >> non-courteous, egotistical, clueless responses from this community - >> The same cannot be said of the times I have to use Linux community >> lists.) >> > > Nothing here > And, be dismissive, when you are show to be wrong. >> Please, have a good day, but also, stop pointing at non-issues and >> saying "See, lookee!".  Anyone can break anything.  Anyone, >> uninformed, who wants to ramp fast and not read documentation, will >> have issues with anything.  This is akin to not reading the >> directions on how to put something from IKEA together.  Lack of >> reading directions usually leads to this list. >> >> P. > > Ok I'll ask for the uptinth time How do you Boot ZFS raid,  this has > been unanswered since 2013. > > Bet you you can not answer that. There is no 'boot zfs raid'.  There is boot ZFS (ZFS can be configured as any RAID type and be booted.  Linux cannot due this as licensing of the CDDL blocks it from having anything but the loader to install it as a module.  FreeBSD has no such restriction. As long as the gptzfsboot blocks are installed, the loader will recognize it and load the Solaris and zfs modules.  From there, it's a straight boot operation like any other file system. My home server uses ZFS as a root partition.  The root partition is on RAID-1 aka mirrored volumes and has no issue booting from both/either. And yes, I answered your question and it's in the Handbook, the Wiki, etc. > > And if your up for it > How to install Grub2 with WIN7 and ZFS RAID FreeBSD > unanswered since 2013. > This is already done with grub2 and is widely available with both TrueOS and FreeBSD.  It's in the manual, the wiki, and several articles for a couple of years now. Personally, I will be taking the same action as others and putting you in my filter list.  You have nothing of interest here.  I applaud the community for not banishing you as of yet as you are a troll, arrogant and dismissive of your betters.  I would also suggest you get psychiatric/psychological counseling for your behavior.  You seem to be a disturbed individual who enjoys creating drama where none exists. Off to spamassassin and other filters. Again, moderator of freebsd-questions, does anyone else have to listen to this prattling? P. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 11 04:56:52 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC4EE85F33 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 04:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (ns.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C450C713BC for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 04:56:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from breakaway.dreamchaser.org (breakaway [192.168.151.122]) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vBB4umLP090638; Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:56:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Subject: Re: Subject: Thunderbird causing system crash, need guidance To: Adam Vande More , FreeBSD Questions References: <201712110045.vBB0jCTQ078476@nightmare.dreamchaser.org> Reply-To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org From: Gary Aitken Message-ID: <38e2ef70-fa1b-25bf-4447-752006418d0a@dreamchaser.org> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:56:16 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (nightmare.dreamchaser.org [192.168.151.101]); Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:56:50 -0700 (MST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 04:56:53 -0000 On 12/10/17 19:02, Adam Vande More wrote: > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Gary Aitken wrote: >> From fstab: >> /dev/ufs/hd250G1root / ufs rw,noatime 1 1 >> /dev/ufs/hd250G1var /var ufs rw,noatime 2 2 >> /dev/ufs/hd250G1usr /usr ufs rw,noatime 7 3 >> tmpfs /tmp tmpfs rw,mode=01777 0 0 >> md99 none swap sw,file=/usr/swap/swap,late 0 0 >> /var is 16G >> >> It seems like it may be corrupted disk data, but I'm wondering if >> there's a good way to diagnose that. > > fsck(8) duh, thanks. That did solve the problem. However, I'm confused. Upon reboot, the system checks to see if file systems were properly dismounted and is supposed to do an fsck. Since those don't show up in messages, I can't verify this, but I'm pretty certain it must have thought it was clean, which it wasn't. (One reason I'm pretty certain is the time involved when run manually as you suggested). The file system in question was mounted below "/". Does the system only auto-check file systems mounted at "/"? > Your swap configuration is also mostly likely silly. If you need > more performance, that's not the way to do it. Can you explain or point me to an explanation for this comment? It looks to me like what's shown in the EXAMPLES section of "man fstab". Thanks, Gary From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 11 07:57:01 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1BBE8919B for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 07:57:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.117.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "infracaninophile.co.uk" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0B2876105 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 07:57:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from liminal.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:9987:5863:73dd:de7d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 810BAD8E8 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 07:56:56 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Subject: Thunderbird causing system crash, need guidance To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <201712110045.vBB0jCTQ078476@nightmare.dreamchaser.org> <38e2ef70-fa1b-25bf-4447-752006418d0a@dreamchaser.org> From: Matthew Seaman Message-ID: <460ae512-89b6-d09f-b567-fefff373b087@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 07:56:55 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38e2ef70-fa1b-25bf-4447-752006418d0a@dreamchaser.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AFBwo7wp1gqfvdE9PqmhbChwhLs1KGw3r" X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 07:57:01 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --AFBwo7wp1gqfvdE9PqmhbChwhLs1KGw3r Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AiAnrERI51btcvqg2w9rKEb5eeCHDaqxf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Matthew Seaman To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <460ae512-89b6-d09f-b567-fefff373b087@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: Subject: Thunderbird causing system crash, need guidance References: <201712110045.vBB0jCTQ078476@nightmare.dreamchaser.org> <38e2ef70-fa1b-25bf-4447-752006418d0a@dreamchaser.org> In-Reply-To: <38e2ef70-fa1b-25bf-4447-752006418d0a@dreamchaser.org> --AiAnrERI51btcvqg2w9rKEb5eeCHDaqxf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/12/2017 04:56, Gary Aitken wrote: >>> md99 none swap sw,file=3D/usr/swap/swap,late 0 0 >> Your swap configuration is also mostly likely silly.=C2=A0 If you need= >> more performance, that's not the way to do it. > Can you explain or point me to an explanation for this comment?=C2=A0 I= t > looks to me like what's shown in the EXAMPLES section of "man fstab". You're swapping to a file-backed memory device, which is not the best choice for performance. The best choice is to swap to raw partitions on your hard drives. Having several disks with a swap partition on each can help, as it allows you to spread the IO load over several devices, but that's a marginal gain and not necessary in general. The reasoning being that you're involving all of the kernel machinery to support filesystem IO for what is meant to be the very low-level and simplified operation of paging memory in and out of swap. Yes, you can create a file-backed swap area, but just because you can doesn't mean you should. Creating a file-backed swap is useful in special cases, like you're working on that part of the kernel and need to test adding or removing swap devices, or you're trying to cope with some exceptional process that is really far too large for your system to handle. Ideally nowadays you should have enough RAM to contain all of your active processes without needing to swap, so the whole point should really be moot. Cheers, Matthew --AiAnrERI51btcvqg2w9rKEb5eeCHDaqxf-- --AFBwo7wp1gqfvdE9PqmhbChwhLs1KGw3r Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKoBAEBCgCSFiEEGfFU7L8RLlBUTj8wAFE/EOCp5OcFAlouOkhfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5 RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0YzMDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcUHG1hdHRoZXdA ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcACgkQAFE/EOCp5OfF8xAAo1+E1uibv0ykffE3kFXHXq6FyO5+ QTvn2A78c3IHCgUjIH/UvHZfjFWQzgSTUVCjPLI20TWhtIs0QqUXkkFPkYveZQur xrq6ztKKy3XmbCS4VuURNRSYlQ8Ii/HFeysPr3NaCxenxc2ZcdhbG5xwAnJ68HgF J1AjEiYGrd/UCHg+asUouNly7BPAjmyTQ0B1c2HXH1rHJWT/Ub81IkJVN0z1NCaA od84W/f9n/PrwTTfla9sHdTtNrXRQhx/jmMuG0Dy2hA3f4w6RYsEiC7nrw0M1LBp WCF7FohP5c7gSHndz3+/R83pmoW+aOVBjLovt5LtVRw4xBrJZBafeUHPyTnBW0aT NgCLh1oPCNAJ/EC5Ah4SB/Mw44yELXyBu/yr0n+4F1cwYWZIIB5Qg48/R4+YLHl3 6EH403Dj7/1RNgQuH41CfOJNfC6u/rPNoeuljdJoP8N+cOv1TY7FK1NmqxDLKwGH 8CBhtDvQUM3MtKUP7zDZzjzxWMfOodSoLkXdmysPc8jAHC01xgyUiCcfmGquL6en 4BOHNQQKarRexfMySN4rXioIGYbMbNapdYfkpMBnLfRGyoIrfzke8b8B7dgX7cbq dluog6cM+V+9xPVpQ06nmp0gT6c+kl6JiC4yT+lMDpv4EmSa1LTYQNhTHYpv0c6t 9ANKPAp6whCOOCA= =13fl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AFBwo7wp1gqfvdE9PqmhbChwhLs1KGw3r-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 11 12:58:18 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD58EE9123C for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 12:58:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FF7063F3D for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 12:58:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.195.18.98]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue103 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0MCfv0-1eF4Gd0Ieg-009MyI; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:58:05 +0100 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:58:03 +0100 From: Polytropon To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org Cc: Adam Vande More , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Subject: Thunderbird causing system crash, need guidance Message-Id: <20171211135803.d1aff6c8.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <38e2ef70-fa1b-25bf-4447-752006418d0a@dreamchaser.org> References: <201712110045.vBB0jCTQ078476@nightmare.dreamchaser.org> <38e2ef70-fa1b-25bf-4447-752006418d0a@dreamchaser.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:8EIRMBap8QtjzYPv2A6tMdM0BTuiDf0Z67zt91rUG4T+m1hGLxa SRPArkkNIkyS8usKZfpoUaM/U9Djcz2QD9Mynup9f70YyYc3MhB1pQWux5H0ohV+mEJy5NO e3eq+aVXZalbj9/PkT7/78FZ30fvSE5XvLEzYEFus6UxGjoNqoWNLy9+QuKqr6jceETE3t9 GoZO/8F+PREzoMgBf0R7w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:Ml4WeOBgtGo=:lHrqWMCtNaWzMAMNeNcXvg z8+/bjMTuLA23FPOBIiUA12aMpx27FklBDSB/Rcbw/wkjxLPr3er5QIvZc1Qy5CAkGDYwAjvm nA5TUXrr2Y54BoA1VEMFitu1nqVAvOyBHKbEgVlp8LdSSI9v31L2YVURTYGgJS5GTbM9pC37E BrGGio1uJRjAqYbR0m7uCxNcZcJNUlr8WEVz8Qb0hMptJx4AOl9zQwkOrr66za3MTcVytgMLL fmVL9Ftb8Ta77vkrqHRY/Id+FB5be5deIKS87Hi9Cq96r6TBTCyQZRTlUHX0QZ1BUrQt7XtpL udI9uErnG7ufEXfJ7CxD3K/VHLvMBD2pNN+dyymefv+6wgI4nBQSDrR8ET0w2/Mt2F6DvKoUl EnfGBjfVfXrOw4N4DEdZOBJKbH2uWajlzqgSE7APNYfKaQjl4yB6PapvW3Uc6g6HpbZ4Jtzae /YQyX+NOKGVOXy9yJv6c6FNbcWc6UAsSGFmSTaVd+7ld6noSuSTQr4bh29eb0XmjnnHufMbXi QxJGk1q5OQSHiIn7g+zf7WDMInVozxW07Qaw/lS+bmpgCfHtBrGlvH5JmBT+pVnIDGxMcE9xm sSTe/ehyEs6fozk5IQdqTjThaPbj9D1+ZC0PGQUw4mSlPqC3Ebl2ALo9chCPQ4zdEgkrXxq9V WZ1UPAqLVJ8OOuLvFRVwbEvO3Q3/+r8nFEGtlNzGEdbDNhKk+ICiab2D15lxc5lQXq4JY6fGj WxaREpRm+PtS73/9pM99Qx3ntx864NSI7o+cScI8bsm+7qFGT/lWz617WHQ= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 12:58:18 -0000 On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:56:16 -0700, Gary Aitken wrote: > On 12/10/17 19:02, Adam Vande More wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Gary Aitken wrote: > > >> From fstab: > >> /dev/ufs/hd250G1root / ufs rw,noatime 1 1 > >> /dev/ufs/hd250G1var /var ufs rw,noatime 2 2 > >> /dev/ufs/hd250G1usr /usr ufs rw,noatime 7 3 > >> tmpfs /tmp tmpfs rw,mode=01777 0 0 > >> md99 none swap sw,file=/usr/swap/swap,late 0 0 > >> /var is 16G > >> > >> It seems like it may be corrupted disk data, but I'm wondering if > >> there's a good way to diagnose that. > > > > fsck(8) > > duh, thanks. > That did solve the problem. > > However, I'm confused. > Upon reboot, the system checks to see if file systems were properly > dismounted and is supposed to do an fsck. Since those don't show up > in messages, I can't verify this, but I'm pretty certain it must have > thought it was clean, which it wasn't. (One reason I'm pretty certain > is the time involved when run manually as you suggested). This is the primary reason for setting background_fsck="NO" in /etc/rc.conf - if you can afford a little downtime. The background fsck doesn't have all the repair capabilities a forced foreground check has, to it _might_ leave the file system in an inconsistent state, and the system runs with that unclean partition. > The file system in question was mounted below "/". > Does the system only auto-check file systems mounted at "/"? Yes, / is the first file system it checks. The two last fields in /etc/fstab control what fsck will check, and /etc/rc.conf allows additional flags for those automatic checks. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec