From owner-freebsd-net@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 17:38:59 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-net@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B398910B3F41 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:38:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x141.google.com (mail-it1-x141.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::141]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA0877B144 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:38:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x141.google.com with SMTP id 74-v6so14290161itw.1 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:38:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SqBfgU3fCH1zqiEW7mq0A7AGd6Y5Qng9r+jOAXqXyfU=; b=glavLR2Jm3bdqDdq4Uk0CAncro430qeKBaT2yH7pwfogcW86cIUZPJcyyZXTqMMrN7 1n+2Hi7q8Yel4RLihxiJ29At4uJPfr1jPX+FBaJhXMLIH79cyb3S8hBwIxDV9iefuAGf QMAfAy75RaRgbkW08QWWzIAbKzS1Uvuos8fhi/ydThxfHtd6TxPLpPOwt0YXExd7y4sI +5u0YQwdqLk5/dRxwb1pYFv4/OGmHPZqfj28VpLg3potUU0nvY+r8FnmpnYojWawG3g0 4uJJ3n8vV1B4iOR6ObAXl9o1ruJ6iagw8bS7FzpzJvTXPPTt3V2RYvIf/jJGKMUKeKPM +NcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SqBfgU3fCH1zqiEW7mq0A7AGd6Y5Qng9r+jOAXqXyfU=; b=jx65KWTDDzmZGCxn9JnFV2y1tdsLc36AagAtqPjvxkcm3rSxhJDFcYfSrXlj2qP/Yi Ay+albTwRt0XxRTkiZnx3be8GxyEMDMDohJ3SerzdsiVrhWP1eeGumnECvjjP3TB+YXL fBMlPxIxY+QxtdMqQrX3fxq6mTOwv+E/ZhjuJG4sXKVcZSJ6rXAyyaL64JEEcMzuFTGh e1Ufu57f30uLbigyvB6Qdb6FGYjxsv4CfANYVQiUPrcQVewLua3pdDxaOxtCFsdQsQgM wQYRR6ux8LPr5jVmrqe9dV0bZTn6GUEDqvJfcC3MBqaaJImT9Rtoc0njVm+NICqZ39QT 0WHA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohix8GZ+Dzd+cbdcH1B6wIJEZAnDtA2vTK+YgFOAo2KkXjCT1C5 Qgl1hSfjGsKwkK2pgdDcnNrHvMy++c5UVGH5kXyiQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV62HyqJuIyxVs4At+pv6ID5coX+AMcEgIRUDBqTpQqFsWecMMLrfg24TR7jERGqp0uW5bN2yfD6pP9InwfC3+UY= X-Received: by 2002:a02:31d:: with SMTP id y29-v6mr6016517jad.98.1538674738107; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:38:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:38:46 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Ian Lepore Cc: michelle@sorbs.net, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-net@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Networking and TCP/IP with FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:38:59 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > wrote: > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > here > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > waned > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used > at > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > because > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > Warner > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that it's taken them to keep things current with rl. In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were later... I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. Warner