Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 22:56:38 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com> To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: Brooks Davis <brooks@freebsd.org>, FreeBSD Net <freebsd-net@freebsd.org>, freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List <freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" <freebsd-arch@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Message-ID: <201810052056.w95KucIo012200@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: Your message "Fri, 05 Oct 2018 09:13:22 -0600." <CANCZdfruk1PTK37sdj7F80JTt21XY2SSAMhZP%2BcZbWzkKwa6iw@mail.gmail.com>
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Thanks for the reply warner, Warner Losh wrote: > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 8:46 AM Julian H. Stacey <jhs@berklix.com> wrote: > > > > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > > > > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > > > > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one > > using xe or ex. That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril. > > > > Later in the thread rl was removed from the list. That's a partial relief. > What systems are you running ed, ex and/or xe on? So far I've heard no > reports of people using the latter two in about a decade. I can look more later, but for a quick partial reply: I keep an incomplete ad hoc occasionaly/rarely updated list of logs, useful for odd questions such as this, so I can run quick checks cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ; grep ed0: * */* | grep port # ... vi dual film flip lapn loft slim wind cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ed0: * */* dual film flip lapl loft park rain snow wall wind cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ; grep xe0: * */* lapd lapo cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep xe0: * */* nothing cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ; grep ex0: * */* nothing cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ex0: * */* nothing Hosts above are custom PCs no model numbers, but these are standard laptops: xe: lapd: Digital HiNote Ultra2000 http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/digital/ ed: lapl: Toshiba Libretto 70CT http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/toshiba/libretto/ ed: lapn: Dell Latitude XPi P133ST http://berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/dell_latitude_xpi_p133st xe: lapo: Novatech (MiTAC) 8355 http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ ( PS ed0 is also used by Hewlett Packard Network ScanJet 5 a multi sheet feeder with FreeBSD built inside, however that's stuck on a seriously old release, still a great device though - http://berklix.com/scanjet/ ) PS My master kernel config from pre 4.11 to current: http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/jhs/sys/amd64/conf/HOLZ So quick summary: ex: I dont seem to use ed: I use on many of my hosts, not just those above, & I have some spare to stick in to any PCI or ISA box I work on if needed. ed & xe I also have on pcmcia & cardbus, so they move around between laptops. > Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers, > > stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade > > again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc. > > > > You could also create a port/pkg for them and assume the burden of > maintenance yourself. Didn't know drivers could be farmed out to ports/, sounds like a recipe for breakage sooner or later. > > Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping > > live code is offensive. Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions > > forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except > > maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ... > > until their nets don't work. > > > > I think in this case there will be plenty of warning. They will upgrade to > 12, one assumes, and see the deprecation message in their new kernel logs. > There's going to be about a 6 month window between when this is announced > and when it happens to collect evidence that removal is unwarranted, to > show they are still in use by enough people to justify their on-going (yes > non-zero) cost to keep in the tree. There's over 2 years before they will > be removed from a released version: also plenty of time to build a case > that they are in use and/or upgrade to different, supported NICs. If you > look at the rest of the thread, you'll see several people have made > compelling cases and/or provided evidence of continued use into the future > to keep the drivers in the tree. Evidence will save them, but harsh words > will not. > > I think expecting people to blindly maintain code on the off chance someone > is still using is offensive as well. We must weigh the costs of continuing > with the benefits those cost provide. We don't have good sources of data > for what's still in use and what's not, so we have to rely on these > periodic calls for data to ensure we aren't wasting our time on hardware > that's no longer used. > > Warner Yes, needs careful balance. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits in EU Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum needed. http://exitbrexit.uk
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