From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 5 4: 0:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94DC915734 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 03:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@aracnet.com) Received: from aracnet.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA09300; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 03:52:59 -0700 (PDT) From: dmp@aracnet.com Message-ID: <37D24BF8.8FE6782E@aracnet.com> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 03:54:48 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Donald Burr , SBLUG Users , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door open to NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) References: <199909041553.LAA27325@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org W Gerald Hicks wrote: > The only solution (for me at least) is an all-out boycott > of Microsoft products. You're just figuring this out now? --- DMP, who must, most regrettably, work with Windows boxen on a daily basis. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 5 8:11:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A581B14CBA for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 08:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-78-101-22.asm.bellsouth.net [216.78.101.22]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09660; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:07:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA30699; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:15:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199909051515.LAA30699@bellsouth.net> To: dmp@aracnet.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door open to NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 05 Sep 1999 03:54:48 PDT." <37D24BF8.8FE6782E@aracnet.com> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 11:15:34 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > The only solution (for me at least) is an all-out boycott > > of Microsoft products. > You're just figuring this out now? As a sincere boycotter this doesn't mean I pinch my nose and use their products even occasionally. My own boycott began a few years ago, upon returning from Microsoft while working on a joint project on behalf of SkyTel. (a dramatization of a true story) Boss: "You must use Microsoft Office" Jerry: "No I must not" Boss: "Our CFO has standardized on Microsoft Office." Jerry: "You do realize my consulting rates just went up?" Boss: "Oh, nevermind then" Jerry: "Well, if you'll stop using Microsoft products I'll give you a deep discount." Boss: "Really?!? Ok, deal! Now I can do something about that pushy CFO. Thanks." :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 5 18:30: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from matrix.42.org (matrix.42.org [194.246.250.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A7F14E66 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 18:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sec@42.org) Received: (from sec@localhost) by matrix.42.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) id DAA20425 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (sender ); Mon, 6 Sep 1999 03:29:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 03:29:33 +0200 From: Stefan `Sec` Zehl To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990906032933.A20411@matrix.42.org> References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> <19990902004901.A33289@keltia.freenix.fr> <37CE8D51.E3CAA262@pipeline.ch> <19990902092859.A31981@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19990902092859.A31981@fisicc-ufm.edu> I-love-doing-this: really Accept-Languages: de, en X-URL: http://sec.42.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 09:28:59AM -0600, Oscar Bonilla wrote: > On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:44:33PM +0200, Andre Oppermann wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > > > Ollivier Robert writes: > > > > According to Josef Grosch: > > > > > Greetings from The People's Republic of Brekeley, Vine st. & Milvia st., > > > > > also in my office. ;-) > > > > Greetings from Les Ulis, France, my home :) > > > > > > Greetings from the offices of Yes! Interactive in Ski, Norway! > > > > Greetings from my Office in Zurich, Switzerland and my twenty-something > > FreeBSD boxen! > > > Greetings from Guatemala city, Guatemala. Here at the University Francisco > Marroquin I'm slowly converting each and every machine to FreeBSD... Greetings from Munich city, Germany. I'm currently at home and it's far too late. This is FreeBSD converting me into a zombie :-) CU, Sec -- Slashdot lusers must have the attention span of an oh look, flashy lights. -- gkb@ntli.net (Gary Barnes) on a.s.r To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 5 20:14: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (n2000039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07AD2151C9 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA17862; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 14:20:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <37D25F8A.8C9B303E@nisser.com> Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 14:18:18 +0200 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jay Nelson Cc: cjc26@cornell.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door opento NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson wrote: > > On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 cjc26@cornell.edu wrote: > > >What was it that the CEO of Sun said? "You already don't have any > >privacy, so get over it"? > > Not completely true, yet. Has anyone considered the very real > possiblity that open source software is likely to be one of the next > targets of our boys in black? After all, there are only two threats > they still face. Secure communication is one. They seem to have closed > all communication holes except open source. So? Even if they did, it wouldn't likely be by way of hidden source patches, now would it? Way easier to just change some laws and make heavy duty encription illegal. In fact, they already have. With the Wassenaar agreement most countries have agreed to limit the encryption level allowed. Since Canada also signed said agreement, or so I believe, it ought to be just a matter of time before OpenBSD has to relocate to a more encryption friendly country . The thing with Mirosoft's NT and other proprietory OS's is that the source is not available for inspection. Who knows what, uhm, demons lurk in their shadier corners? And to whose benefit or what purpose? Roelof -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 5 23:28: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137B1158DD for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:28:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from suzy (modem07.masternet.it [194.184.65.17]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA06199 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 08:25:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990906082344.012c1b50@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 08:30:28 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: .Xdefaults to share ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org #define TEXTBG gray90 #define PANELBG gray83 #define BUTTONBG gray80 #define DARKBG gray50 #define FONT lucidasans-10 #define BOLDFONT lucidasans-bold-10 #define IFONT lucidasans-italic-10 #define MONOFONT lucidasanstypewriter-12 #define MBFONT lucidasanstypewriter-bold-12 *Box.background: PANELBG *Dialog.background: PANELBG *Form.background: PANELBG *Label.background: PANELBG *Paned.background: PANELBG *Panner.background: PANELBG *SimpleMenu.background: PANELBG *Command.background: BUTTONBG *MenuButton.background: BUTTONBG *Repeater.background: BUTTONBG *Toggle.background: BUTTONBG *Scrollbar.background: BUTTONBG *AsciiSink.background: TEXTBG *FontGrid.background: TEXTBG *Ghostview.background: TEXTBG *List.background: TEXTBG *Panner.foreground: TEXTBG *Porthole.background: TEXTBG *RgbSink.background: TEXTBG *RgbText.background: TEXTBG *ScrollByLine.background: TEXTBG *Text.background: TEXTBG *Tree.background: TEXTBG *Viewport.background: TEXTBG *AsciiSink.font: FONT *Command.font: FONT *Label.font: FONT *List.font: FONT *MenuButton.font: FONT *RgbSink.font: MONOFONT *SmeBSB.font: FONT *Toggle.font: FONT *shapeStyle: Rectangle *beNiceToColormap: False *topShadowContrast: 10 *bottomShadowContrast: 10 *shadowWidth: 2 *borderWidth: 1 *highlightThickness: 1 *Label.shadowWidth: 0 *Label.borderWidth: 0 Netscape*borderWidth: 0 I found this setting for XAw and Xaw3d. I think they are quite cute and make the X11 apps very nice to see (in my opinion). Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 1:18: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3C015A9C for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:17:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21129; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:17:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Roelof Osinga Cc: Jay Nelson , cjc26@cornell.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door opento NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) References: <37D25F8A.8C9B303E@nisser.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Sep 1999 10:17:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: Roelof Osinga's message of "Sun, 05 Sep 1999 14:18:18 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Roelof Osinga writes: > In fact, they already have. With the Wassenaar agreement most countries > have agreed to limit the encryption level allowed. Only for commercial closed-source systems. Open source is exempt :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 1:39:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DAB814DA2 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA13572; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:39:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00701; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 22:04:16 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 22:02:51 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The chat charter. Message-ID: <19990905220251.B639@bitbox.follo.net> References: <12893.936232731@localhost> <19990902115711.64122@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990902115711.64122@ns.int.ftf.net>; from Phil Regnauld on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 11:57:11AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 11:57:11AM +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > > So, Brett, please just go away, and don't bother to come back. > > > > (this is not what I'd *really* like to say, but Jordan threatened to > > take me off the list if I didn't restrain myself) > > If we pay, can we put you and Brett in a cage, and watch you > mudwrestle ? If Doug supplies the cage, I can supply DES (I have physical access - he's a coworker), so you just need to supply Brett, and we'd have all the necessary ingredients. Don't you think we could earn some extra cash by putting this on video and selling it at FreeBSDmall? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 1:43:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BFE414CC3 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA06126; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:40:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA76968; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:44:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990906104410.47782@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:44:10 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Roelof Osinga , Jay Nelson , cjc26@cornell.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door opento NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) References: <37D25F8A.8C9B303E@nisser.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 10:17:38AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > Roelof Osinga writes: > > In fact, they already have. With the Wassenaar agreement most countries > > have agreed to limit the encryption level allowed. > > Only for commercial closed-source systems. Open source is exempt :) That was the first draft of the wassenaar -- watch out, they're rewriting it to also include open source. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 1:47:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D4F14E47; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 01:47:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA06590; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:46:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA76990; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:50:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990906105005.42136@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:50:05 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The chat charter. References: <12893.936232731@localhost> <19990902115711.64122@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990905220251.B639@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990905220251.B639@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 10:02:51PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > > If Doug supplies the cage, Check. > I can supply DES (I have physical access - he's a coworker), Check. > so you just need to supply Brett, and we'd have all > the necessary ingredients. Ah, there's the catch. Can someone please catch Brett Glass, preferably with a lasso, and pack him with food + water + styrafoam bits in a 4" x 2" x 2" wooden crate. Remember the holes for air! Wrap, label and ship to: Eivind Eklund c/o Yes Interactive AS Idrettsveien 10 N-1400 Ski Norway Remeber: Don't give him water Don't expose him to sunlight Don't ever, ever let him on -chat after midnight. > Don't you think we could earn some extra cash by putting this on video > and selling it at FreeBSDmall? It's all yours. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 11:49:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [195.147.246.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6752715A3D for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:49:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pa9s10a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.234.170] helo=marder-1.) by sand2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11O3oo-0001Px-00; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:48:43 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id TAA01066; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:27:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:27:41 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: "Arthur H. Johnson II" Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Procmail. Message-ID: <19990906192740.C281@marder-1> References: <19990902175603.B296@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Arthur H. Johnson II on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 01:11:17PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 01:11:17PM -0400, Arthur H. Johnson II wrote: > hummmm, i dont know, but check out mine: > > # Please check if all the paths in PATH are reachable, remove the ones that > # are not. > > > > PATH=$PATH > MAILDIR=$HOME/mail # You'd better make sure it exists > DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/.incomming > LOGFILE=$HOME/.procmaillog > LOCKFILE=$HOME/.lockmail > > :0 > * ^Subject.*subscribe* > work/work > > :0 > * ^Subject.*New Program* > work/work > [snip] > > It might have something to do with the brackets. > Thanks. I used yours as a basis and got it owrking the way I want. I used the braces because I had followed a FAQ I found on the web that did it that way to perform multiple actions on a single mail. Thanks for your help > Arthur H. Johnson II > http://www.linuxberg.com > Linuxberg Manager > arthur@tucows.com > -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 14: 7: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B47114BFF for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:06:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA46235 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:06:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:06:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Linux install Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just had to go help a friend install a Linux system. He's a true newbie, and it doesn't look like he's headed towards programming, so when I couldn't talk him out of leaving Windows (which he's pretty good at), I figured Linux is probably more friendly, and shoved him towards RedHat. I didn't want him complining that I had him on what I think of as a programmer's system (FreeBSD, of course). Heck with that, it's the last time I try Linux. Their install is nowhere near as easy as FreeBSD's, at least to him and I. From what I can tell, they don't even have usermode ppp at all, and getting their kernel mode ppp working hasn't been fun. ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@mat.net | communications topic, C programming, Unix and 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry. It's all in the design! Greenbelt, MD 20770 | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386 (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 14:38:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stuffed-crust.co.uk (stuffed-crust.co.uk [212.24.70.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A903E15584 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steveda@stuffed-crust.co.uk) Received: (qmail 1329 invoked by uid 5001); 6 Sep 1999 21:38:23 -0000 Received: from localhost.eurobell.net (HELO stuffed-crust.co.uk) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.eurobell.net with SMTP; 6 Sep 1999 21:38:23 -0000 To: Chuck Robey Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org From: Steve Darrall Subject: Re: Linux install In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 17:06:46 EDT." Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 22:38:22 +0100 Message-Id: <19990906213829.A903E15584@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD is a "programmer's system"? Errr I wish someone had told me... I use it for word processing, scanning, artwork, and 0.0001% programming (OK, 75% IRC ;) ). I have a couple of perl scripts to sort my MP3s out, but that's about it as far as programming goes. Why categorise FreeBSD as a "programmer's system"? Its *MUCH* more versatile than that. Maybe I'm just weird for wanting to use a hardcore *NIX OS that runs a number of high-profile sites on the 'net as a desktop OS in favour of windows. OK, so FreeBSD takes a bit of getting used to after years if Windows, but with a bit of effort you can get there in the end. Maybe writing macros for vim to make it more like Ultraedit isn't being as 'pure' as some people would like, but if I don't like it, I change it...its the nature of the beast. (If anyone can give me some help with opening from/saving to FTP in vim I wouldn't say no ;) ) Maybe the developers see people like me as 'leeching' their work. If they do, then I'm sorry, but I'm no programmer, if I could contribure then I would. I guess the only contribution I can make is to say thanks to the thousands of people out there helping the Open Source movement (no matter what the OS may be) by developing the utilities/apps the people on this list along with countless others use every day. Hrmmm this is starting to ramble so maybe I should quit while I'm ahead. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't pigeon-hole any OS. Particularly one that can be whatever you want it to be. I realise that your mail was mainly saying how easy FreeBSD is to install compared to Linux. But why try anything else in the first place? Steve Your message dated: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 17:06:46 EDT >I just had to go help a friend install a Linux system. He's a true >newbie, and it doesn't look like he's headed towards programming, so >when I couldn't talk him out of leaving Windows (which he's pretty good >at), I figured Linux is probably more friendly, and shoved him towards >RedHat. I didn't want him complining that I had him on what I think of >as a programmer's system (FreeBSD, of course). > >Heck with that, it's the last time I try Linux. Their install is >nowhere near as easy as FreeBSD's, at least to him and I. From what I >can tell, they don't even have usermode ppp at all, and getting their >kernel mode ppp working hasn't been fun. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 16:33:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10E714EA6 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.3] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11O6bH-0006Lp-00; Mon, 06 Sep 1999 22:46:55 +0100 Received: (from ben) by lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11O6bG-0004m8-00; Mon, 06 Sep 1999 22:46:54 +0100 Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:46:53 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Chuck Robey Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Linux install Message-ID: <19990906224653.B18294@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chuck Robey wrote: > I just had to go help a friend install a Linux system. He's a true > newbie, and it doesn't look like he's headed towards programming, so > when I couldn't talk him out of leaving Windows (which he's pretty good > at), I figured Linux is probably more friendly, and shoved him towards > RedHat. I didn't want him complining that I had him on what I think of > as a programmer's system (FreeBSD, of course). > > Heck with that, it's the last time I try Linux. Their install is > nowhere near as easy as FreeBSD's, at least to him and I. From what I > can tell, they don't even have usermode ppp at all, and getting their > kernel mode ppp working hasn't been fun. No arguments about any of that from here... I recently built a new computer here, and since a friend of mine uses Linux (he's not all bad though -- I don't think he uses emacs), I figured I'd borrow his CDs and try out Linux. (SuSE, I don't know what version of SuSE or of the Linux kernel, at least with FreeBSD you know that version 3.2 is 3.2 is 3.2, and you don't have to put up with different versions for the distribution and the kernel.) Anyway, the install was terrible. Loads of stuff I had *no* interest in selected by default (like KDE and loads of other crappy window managers), which FreeBSD quite rightly puts in ports. Oh, it refused to have a swap partition bigger than 128MB as well, for some reason. Other stuff annoyed me. In FreeBSD, I normally make my root filesystem about 32MB, and give most of the rest of the disk to /usr, and then a reasonable amount of swap. It turned out 32MB wasn't enough for the root filesystem in Linux... *sigh* They probably put emacs and all their bloated crappy window manglers in /bin or something. Little niggling things as well, like needing three CDs for a "base" system, when you can get a FreeBSD base system from just CD1. Needless to say, the machine in question is happily running FreeBSD-stable now, and I hope I never have to use Linux in any shape or form again. -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 17:19:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74CFF153FF for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:19:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA96827; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:19:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Roelof Osinga Cc: Jay Nelson , cjc26@cornell.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door opento NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <37D25F8A.8C9B303E@nisser.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Roelof Osinga wrote: > > The thing with Mirosoft's NT and other proprietory OS's is that the > source is not available for inspection. Who knows what, uhm, demons > lurk in their shadier corners? And to whose benefit or what purpose? > > Roelof > While Microsoft is denying a "back door" to NSA, that NSA would have approached them (and Intel, on different matters of course) is well within NSA's own view of their responsibilities or even obligations. What's interesting about this is whether major organizations will decide that it is too risky to run operating systems for which one doesn't have sources. That offers great opportunity for Linux and FreeBSD. X on these systems can be standardized and made almost as easy to run for the user as 95/98/NT; Linux/FreeBSD on an AMD K-7 is probably a reasonable option for which to consider. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 17:33:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE82415A60 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01649; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:29:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:29:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux install In-Reply-To: <19990906224653.B18294@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Ben Smithurst wrote: > They probably put emacs and all their bloated crappy window manglers > in /bin or something. Little niggling things as well, like needing > three CDs for a "base" system, when you can get a FreeBSD base system > from just CD1. One of the previous machines I admin'ed was, for about 2 days while I was in charge of it, a RedHat box (it'd been cracked and I was asked to come in and clean things up - so I put FreeBSD on it). Anyway, one of the things I noticed was that almost _all_ software binaries (X and console both) got installed in /usr/bin. I'm not joking at all - there were maybe 50 things in /usr/X11R6/bin and maybe another 50 in /usr/local/bin. Everything else was buried in /usr/bin (ls | wc -w gave me about 2500 or so in /usr/bin). Cripes. Why is anyone's guess, but I had no clue as to why but only a few of the X apps (and I think these were typically xbiff, xterm - base X stuff) were installed in /usr/X11R6/bin less yet all of the stuff that, IMO, should have been in /usr/local/bin. I was plenty happy to move that machine to FreeBSD and it's been happy ever since (and the box is still running along fine!). BTW, it got hacked because the previous "admin" left all of the lovely default daemons running (like innd, httpd, etc). Funny that he didn't even bother to shut off innd and its brethen since all it did then was serve up email. Note I assume they were default because I figured the guy wouldn't try to start up a news server on a small dept machine. The version of Apache was 1.0 (hopelessly outdated even then) and they got in through the PHF bug which had been closed a long time previous to that. Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 18: 1: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D2D14C80 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:00:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA47959; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:59:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:59:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Brett Taylor Cc: Ben Smithurst , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux install In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Ben Smithurst wrote: > > > They probably put emacs and all their bloated crappy window manglers > > in /bin or something. Little niggling things as well, like needing > > three CDs for a "base" system, when you can get a FreeBSD base system > > from just CD1. > > One of the previous machines I admin'ed was, for about 2 days while I was > in charge of it, a RedHat box (it'd been cracked and I was asked to come > in and clean things up - so I put FreeBSD on it). > > Anyway, one of the things I noticed was that almost _all_ software > binaries (X and console both) got installed in /usr/bin. I'm not joking > at all - there were maybe 50 things in /usr/X11R6/bin and maybe another 50 > in /usr/local/bin. Everything else was buried in /usr/bin (ls | wc -w > gave me about 2500 or so in /usr/bin). Cripes. Why is anyone's guess, > but I had no clue as to why but only a few of the X apps (and I think > these were typically xbiff, xterm - base X stuff) were installed in > /usr/X11R6/bin less yet all of the stuff that, IMO, should have been in > /usr/local/bin. I chose to recommend Linux to my friend because I am wary of being a FreeBSD bigot, and since I use FreeBSD only myself (except when a customer pays), I give myself what sounded like good reasons to choose Linux. I won't make that mistake again, once bitten, twice shy. ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@mat.net | communications topic, C programming, Unix and 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry. It's all in the design! Greenbelt, MD 20770 | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386 (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 18: 1:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (ws154.qiv.com [63.68.191.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17ECB14BD0 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:01:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id UAA71294; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:00:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA01843; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:31:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:31:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Chuck Robey Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux install In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW, I've seen experienced Unix people take days to get a working Linux system up (one even had a breakin shortly after.) I've got a 2.2.7 box humming along as primary DNS, MX and Samba perversion that's been running since 2.1.X days. About 4 hours to install originally and about an hour each time to upgrade. No breakins, no failures, no trouble. 'Course, I don't get a lot of respect, because they don't see me doing anything -- which is probably true. It doesn't take long to look at the logs, notice the intrusion attempts that failed, the spam that was rejected and move on to other things. I did spend about 4 hours one day tracking down a DoS attack launched from a Linux box that had been cracked on our network. Pulling the network cable was effective, though I suppose that's beside the point. I wouldn't recommend Linux to a friend. Linux seems to have become the M$ of the Unix world. Too bad. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 18: 8:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (D6197.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.155.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D846714BCC for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:07:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00410; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:07:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:07:26 -0400 (EDT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@tankgrrl To: Chuck Robey Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux install In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: | I figured Linux is probably more friendly, I think FreeBSD and Linux are about equally hard to use. You could've put KDE and Gnome and all that crap on a FreeBSD box, and your friend wouldn't have known the difference. :) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ There are more stars in the sky than there are -><- grains of sand on all the beaches of the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 18:18:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBA914BCC for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA48013; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:16:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux install In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality wrote: > On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: > > | I figured Linux is probably more friendly, > > I think FreeBSD and Linux are about equally hard to use. > You could've put KDE and Gnome and all that crap on a FreeBSD box, and > your friend wouldn't have known the difference. :) Do you want an example? Try installing ppp, Linux versus FreeBSD ... jeeze what a difference! If you have problems in usermode ppp on FreeBSD, go into the term, do it manually, it *always* works, and take the bugs out of your scripts *after* you're online. Heck, Linux doesn't even *have* usermode ppp ... anyone that can prove me wrong on that is extremely welcome to tell me I'm wrong, I can't find it. Linux's ppp is kernel mode, only. Partitioning, that's another joy ... no, I won't go on here. ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@mat.net | communications topic, C programming, Unix and 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry. It's all in the design! Greenbelt, MD 20770 | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386 (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 6 19:23: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (n2000039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B4314C4B for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA28011; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 04:22:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <37D47681.9F58E0E4@nisser.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 04:20:49 +0200 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Annelise Anderson Cc: Jay Nelson , cjc26@cornell.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door opentoNSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Annelise Anderson wrote: > > While Microsoft is denying a "back door" to NSA, that NSA would have > approached them (and Intel, on different matters of course) is well > within NSA's own view of their responsibilities or even obligations. NSA is as NSA does. > What's interesting about this is whether major organizations will > decide that it is too risky to run operating systems for which one > doesn't have sources. That offers great opportunity for Linux and > FreeBSD. Not really. Basically, once a corporation gets to be a certain size there is very little danger of it going bust. IBM, Compaq and Microsoft have that size. Since they're not likely to go belly up any time soon, there is little danger in going with their products. As long as they're around they can be made to improve their products and patch whatever hole there's in them. The same can not be said of all other products, hence there's a danger in going with those products. Business dislikes risks that aren't profitable. Since there's little profit to be made in going with an inherantly risky computing product, business will shy from those products. The more so since there's great cost involved, as in retraining of staff. A cost that far outweighs the savings. As to just how little cryptographic security means to businesses, just consider the fact that the rest of the world takes the 40-bit encryption of US-export products for granted. And has done so for years. That is truly amazing. Even countries part of the NATO pact aren't allowed to have 128 bit encryption and they accept this. Go figure. The same of course holds for a ratty product as Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. Whole branches of industry have standardized on them. Why? > X on these systems can be standardized and made almost as easy to run > for the user as 95/98/NT; Linux/FreeBSD on an AMD K-7 is probably a > reasonable option for which to consider. I'm afraid almost isn't good enough. Nor is the K-7 any consideration for those that couldn't give a damn (pardon my french, but it mirrors the real world, thus harsh, truth). What I've always found to be and still see as the great opportunity for Linux and the xBSD's is the SOHO and small to medium business market. Places where the bottom line comes first. Especially now with Sun's coupe there is the makings for an unbeatable offering. Free source doesn't mean squat to them, but basically gratis does. The more so when offset to MS's Small Business Server, with Office 2K for multiple clients each running a costly client OS. That's a lot of mulah you need to recuperate. Fortunately there are a lot of small businesses out there, as well as underbudgetted departments of large businesses. They can make a difference. Just remember, if you can, the days of the microcomputers. CP/M, MP/M, TurboDOS, Cromix, etc. The very first beginnings were due to small businesses. It was only after IBM got interested and produced the PC - alas not that 68K based lab machine - that big business got interested. Another nice thing about small businesses is that they don't really care about gizmo's and userfriendliness. Not when explained right, that is. Sure, userfriendliness is important, but not in the MS sense. No daft electronic paperclip is going to up sales, no matter how user friendly MS thinks it is. What a small business needs is low cost and high productivity. Still, a thing that is missing from both Linux and the xBSDs is the catering for the utter dimwit. I mean, ever tried installing OpenBSD, say? That is pure 70s and 80s. But even something as, comparatively, slick as FreeBSD still lacks in that department. We are talking about people that don't know about computers, don't care about computers and don't want to both know or care about computers. Something Microsoft understands all too well. Thus, you basically have a choice. Either you do sorta what Microsoft does or you say the heck with it. The former does have severe consequences, though it can be done. Just think going from 3.1 to 3.2 and facing a sendmail diff. No way that can be allowed to happen, since there'll be none among your target audience that can deal with it. Great for the consultants among us, but bad for marketing. Somehow I can't see all people caring enough all the time. Call me cynical . The latter is what we got now. Personally I think that is just right. The price is great, the fun is great. And all the while the inkblot is spreading, albeit slowly. While it is spreading, capability in every regards is increasing. So Microsoft has the slicker product that is used more by the masses. So who cares. We're not the ones with the slogan: "A million lemmings can't be wrong!" ;). Roelof -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 0: 9: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from balsam.methow.com (balsam.methow.com [206.107.156.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 66F9A1559D for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 00:08:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcole@balsam.methow.com) Received: (qmail 4492 invoked by uid 535); 7 Sep 1999 07:08:51 -0000 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 00:08:51 -0700 From: Travis Cole To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Linux install Message-ID: <19990907000851.B4299@wcug.wwu.edu> References: <19990906224653.B18294@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990906224653.B18294@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk>; from Ben Smithurst on Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 10:46:53PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 10:46:53PM +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > > Anyway, the install was terrible. Loads of stuff I had *no* interest > in selected by default (like KDE and loads of other crappy window > managers), which FreeBSD quite rightly puts in ports. Oh, it refused to > have a swap partition bigger than 128MB as well, for some reason. Other 128MB is actualy the max size for a swap partition with the 2.0.x Linux kernels. Yes, very lame. At least they fixed it in 2.2.x > -- > Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D > ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and > | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk -- --Travis When it comes to violence, morality and the young, we're the Idiot Nation, the laughingstock not only of the civilized world but of the highly-wired generation of kids we're supposedly trying to protect. Jon Katz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 1:46:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B4F14EBB for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 01:46:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA03437; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:42:25 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA84133; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:46:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990907104605.41454@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:46:05 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Chuck Robey Cc: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux install References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 09:16:17PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chuck Robey writes: > > Do you want an example? Try installing ppp, Linux versus FreeBSD ... > jeeze what a difference! If you have problems in usermode ppp on I used Kppp on FreeBSD and Linux with KDE -- works like a charm. As easy as windows. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 2: 8:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCF615AD3 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 02:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28122; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:08:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Steve Darrall Cc: Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux install References: <19990906213829.A903E15584@hub.freebsd.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 Sep 1999 11:08:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: Steve Darrall's message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 22:38:22 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Darrall writes: > FreeBSD is a "programmer's system"? Errr I wish someone had told me... > > I use it for word processing, scanning, artwork, and 0.0001% programming (OK, > 75% IRC ;) ). Hmm, I use it for: * programming * programming * reading mail * programming * programming * playing MP3s * programming * programming * IRC * programming * programming * websurfing * programming * programming DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 2:14:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D0D15A16 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 02:14:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28144; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:12:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality Cc: Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux install References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 Sep 1999 11:12:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality's message of "Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:07:26 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality writes: > On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: > | I figured Linux is probably more friendly, > I think FreeBSD and Linux are about equally hard to use. > You could've put KDE and Gnome and all that crap on a FreeBSD box, and > your friend wouldn't have known the difference. :) Steinar Haug and I installed FreeBSD with KDE on several PCs in the terminal room at IETF45. They were very popular... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 5: 2:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9299A155F3; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:01:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E01DE42A1; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C48AB9C43; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:01:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The chat charter. In-Reply-To: <19990905220251.B639@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: :On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 11:57:11AM +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: :> If we pay, can we put you and Brett in a cage, and watch you :> mudwrestle ? :If Doug supplies the cage, I can supply DES (I have physical access - :he's a coworker), so you just need to supply Brett, and we'd have all :the necessary ingredients. :Don't you think we could earn some extra cash by putting this on video :and selling it at FreeBSDmall? Don't be silly. Pay-per-view is the way to go here. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 5:13:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8087115A10 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5C26342A1; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4FD7A9C43; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:12:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Chuck Robey Cc: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux install In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: :Do you want an example? Try installing ppp, Linux versus FreeBSD ... :jeeze what a difference! If you have problems in usermode ppp on :FreeBSD, go into the term, do it manually, it *always* works, and take :the bugs out of your scripts *after* you're online. :Heck, Linux doesn't even *have* usermode ppp ... anyone that can prove :me wrong on that is extremely welcome to tell me I'm wrong, I can't find :it. Linux's ppp is kernel mode, only. Since I only use kernel ppp in either, this has never been an issue for me. Linux and FreeBSD's kernel ppp are the same, with the exception of pathing (/usr/bin/chat vs. /bin/chat, etc). I haven't used ppp since I joined the ranks of the cable connection class of user, but hey, I still remember how to feed chat. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 6:44:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E00415492 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 06:44:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem27.masternet.it [194.184.65.37]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA29675 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:43:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990907154808.019c64d0@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 15:48:18 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Linux install ... and the kernel ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07/09/99, you wrote: >Chuck Robey writes: >> >> Do you want an example? Try installing ppp, Linux versus FreeBSD ... >> jeeze what a difference! If you have problems in usermode ppp on > > I used Kppp on FreeBSD and Linux with KDE -- works like a charm. > > As easy as windows. Me too on Linux... it was the only way I am able to arrange an internet connection with a RH 6.0. And the Kernel ? make xuserconfig has a good interface, but the choosing take me about half an hour... Then I build the kernel following : a) the suggestions from a newspaper b) the tips from linuxnewbie c) the INSTALL/README file that come with the kernel... After make everything, installed/copied and edited the /etc/lilo.conf I run lilo -v and then it had the courage to complain that my kernel image was too big ... starting again from the beginning step by step... I made the kernel compressed... same result... I abandoned ... and I use (the few times I boot Linux) the redhat with kernel 2.2.5 (upgraded by hand with binary pkg found on the RH site) Configuring a kernel under FreeBSD is not really so difficult if you read at least the handbook. I don't want to repeat myself, but we have the best under our fingers... Here (Italy) the problem is that Linux is become a gadget to sell computer magazine and books. Every one speaks about Linux and optionally come with a copy of the last distribution, kernel version, software... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 10:38:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E1614E6C for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:37:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p9fs10a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.234.160] helo=marder-1.) by sand5.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11OPAv-0004yX-00; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:36:58 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id SAA00739; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:29:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:29:00 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Roelof Osinga Cc: Annelise Anderson , Jay Nelson , cjc26@cornell.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door opentoNSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) Message-ID: <19990907182859.A283@marder-1> References: <37D47681.9F58E0E4@nisser.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37D47681.9F58E0E4@nisser.com>; from Roelof Osinga on Tue, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:20:49AM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 07, 1999 at 04:20:49AM +0200, Roelof Osinga wrote: > > As to just how little cryptographic security means to businesses, just > consider the fact that the rest of the world takes the 40-bit encryption > of US-export products for granted. And has done so for years. That is > truly amazing. Even countries part of the NATO pact aren't allowed > to have 128 bit encryption and they accept this. Go figure. The same > of course holds for a ratty product as Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. Whole > branches of industry have standardized on them. Why? > Hasn't the US govt recently been generous and allowed 56-bit encryption to be exported? ISTR that "export" versions of IE now have it, or is M$ a special case? Anyway, who cares what the US govt thinks, says, or does about encryption? We all have PGP which is as much as 512 (or is it 1024?) bit. > Another nice thing about small businesses is that they don't really > care about gizmo's and userfriendliness. Not when explained right, that > is. Sure, userfriendliness is important, but not in the MS sense. > No daft electronic paperclip is going to up sales, no matter how user > friendly MS thinks it is. What a small business needs is low cost and > high productivity. > Hmm, I'm not so sure that I agree with that. M$ (mainly) has created a mentality amongst PC users whereby they have to have the latest version. I've seen plenty of examples of people who always upgrade(?) to the latest version of Office but the documents they produce with it could have been produced with Word 2, or even that classic WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS. Many people use the new "features" just because they are there, not because they *need* them. > Still, a thing that is missing from both Linux and the xBSDs is the > catering for the utter dimwit. I mean, ever tried installing OpenBSD, > say? That is pure 70s and 80s. But even something as, comparatively, > slick as FreeBSD still lacks in that department. We are talking about > people that don't know about computers, don't care about computers > and don't want to both know or care about computers. Something Microsoft > understands all too well. > Yes, but installing an OS should be a one-off thing whereas with Windows the solution, even from "professional" support desks, to a problem can very quickly become: "Try re-installing Windows". I think is was Greg Lehey who said; "With Unix, re-installing is hardly ever an option". If you have to repeatedly re-install the OS then an installer for "the utter dimwit" becomes a necessity. > Thus, you basically have a choice. Either you do sorta what Microsoft > does or you say the heck with it. The former does have severe consequences, > though it can be done. Just think going from 3.1 to 3.2 and facing a > sendmail diff. No way that can be allowed to happen, since there'll > be none among your target audience that can deal with it. Great for > the consultants among us, but bad for marketing. Somehow I can't see > all people caring enough all the time. Call me cynical . > > The latter is what we got now. Personally I think that is just right. > The price is great, the fun is great. And all the while the inkblot > is spreading, albeit slowly. While it is spreading, capability in > every regards is increasing. So Microsoft has the slicker product > that is used more by the masses. So who cares. We're not the > ones with the slogan: "A million lemmings can't be wrong!" ;). > > Roelof > > -- > Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 10:45:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 39F5514E73; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C4721CD8BE; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door opentoNSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19990907182859.A283@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > Hasn't the US govt recently been generous and allowed 56-bit > encryption to be exported? ISTR that "export" versions of IE now > have it, or is M$ a special case? This is still almost trivially breakable thesedays - refer EFF's "Deep Crack" hardware. > Anyway, who cares what the US govt thinks, says, or does about > encryption? We all have PGP which is as much as 512 (or is it 1024?) > bit. Asymmetric cryptography like DH/RSA (used in PGP) doesn't directly compare to symmetric cryptography (DES, blowfish, etc) in terms of key bitlengths: a 512-bit asymmetric key is roughly as "strong" as a 56-bit symmetric key (e.g. DES) (give or take an order of magnitude, I don't have figures handy). 1024 is considered to be reasonably secure against attack for the next few years, but if you want to be secure in the longer-term you should be using 2048-bit keys or larger. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 16:40:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FBB315172 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.3] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11OSVg-0007sl-00; Tue, 07 Sep 1999 22:10:36 +0100 Received: (from ben) by lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11OSVf-0005mO-00; Tue, 07 Sep 1999 22:10:35 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:10:35 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Thomas Keusch Cc: US FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Linux install Message-ID: <19990907221035.A22137@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <19990906224653.B18294@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> <19990907154843.A4006@dante.visionaire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <19990907154843.A4006@dante.visionaire.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas Keusch wrote: > On Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 10:46:53PM +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > >> Anyway, the install was terrible. Loads of stuff I had *no* interest >> in selected by default (like KDE and loads of other crappy window >> managers), which FreeBSD quite rightly puts in ports. Oh, it refused to > > That is not Linux' fault, it is the developers' of the SuSE Linux > distribution fault. True, but this is just another thing which is nicer about FreeBSD. FreeBSD is FreeBSD. If only Linux were that simple. > Just like Linux isn't bad. Not from what I've seen. OK, maybe SuSE was just particularly bad, maybe I'd get better luck with DeadRat (though I wouldn't use that, I'd like a version of Perl which works, from what I've heard DeadRat can't manage that) or Debian, but I don't intend to try. Maybe I'll give another distribution a try at some point, but I doubt it. I certainly can't see how it could be better than FreeBSD though, personally. > I personally consider it a pitty when people try one *distribution* *of* > *Linux* and judge *Linux* (as a whole) based on their experiences, which > itself is not that much of a problem, but it is bad if these people then try > to convince others of their subjective opinion and put it like their > experiences were valid of all flavors of Linux. If there weren't multiple distributions, this problem wouldn't be here in the first place. -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 17:20:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2416615403 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02664; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:19:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd002645; Tue Sep 7 17:19:50 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14584; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:19:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909080019.RAA14584@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause To: walton@nordicrecords.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:19:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: des@flood.ping.uio.no, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990903231722.7492.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> from "Dave Walton" at Sep 3, 99 04:15:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 3 Sep 99, at 10:10, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > The advertising clause is a "further restriction" which conflicts with > > the GPL's requirement that "no further restrictions" be placed on the > > code. > > Yes, but that isn't the only "restriction" in the BSD license. So > what does it change? There are no other "restrictions" in the UCB license that are not also already in the GPL. The specific wording of clause 6b of the GPL is "no additional restrictions". The "Claim Credit" clause, sometimes wrongly called the advertising caluse by people who don't understand that it does not invoke unless you try to claim credit for the code, counted as an "additional restriction". FWIW, it's always been possible to get the same effect as the GPL against the UCB code base by adopting a "Sleepy Cat" style license, to wit: http://www.sleepycat.com/license.net Or a "Sendmail" style license, to wit: http://www.sendmail.org/license-info.html The GPL itself was specifically "poison-pilled" against UCB licensed code. This was a political choice made by the authors of the GPL, and not specifically necessary (or even very intelligent). The reason very few people have tried to take UCB code "private" like Sleepy Cat has taken the Berkeley db code post 1.86 and Sendmail, Inc. has taken the sendmail code, ca. Sendmail 8.9.x, is that there are volunteer maintainers, and because, except in rare cases, such as the previous two, it seriously damages the utility of the code for future generations. It may well be that someone will attempt to GPL all of the BSD4.4 code. It may also be that Jordan Hubbard will have success pushing the 2 caluse license, thus allowing a FreeBSD distribution to be GPL'ed. But unless you are a moron undeserving of a Computer Science degree due to your not planning on benefitting financially from your work in the field at some future date, you won't do this. > > The removal of the advertising clause makes it possible to > > relicense BSD code under the GPL. > > Does it? Only the copyright holder can change the license, and > they can do that whether or not there is an advertising clause. > Removal of that clause doesn't allow a third party to change the > license, because they don't have that right. It makes it possible to license unmodified BSD4.4-Lite2 derived code under GPL (assuming it's not a hoax). It does not make it possible to redistribute all of FreeBSD under those same terms. Smart people, like Poul-Henning and others (myself included) have donated code that is integral to FreeBSD, and under license terms which continue to conflict with clause 6b of the GPL, and will fight to keep things that way. If the GPL people want to subsume that code, then they will have to change the GPL's caluse 6b to not be gratuitously conflicting. Buying Poul-Henning a beer is probably not something he'll give up willingly. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 17:38:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cerberus.techfuel.com (irvine.techfuel.com [209.80.51.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1D015403 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:38:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kehlet@techfuel.com) Received: from basilisk.techfuel.com (basilisk.techfuel.com [172.16.1.2]) by cerberus.techfuel.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21469 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.techfuel.com (phoenix.techfuel.com [172.16.1.5]) by basilisk.techfuel.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA48244 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kehlet@localhost) by phoenix.techfuel.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01773 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:40:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: phoenix.techfuel.com: kehlet owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:40:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Kehlet To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: anyone have System V jokes? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've got a guy here giving me a lot of grief about how System V is taking over the world, therefore it's superior over BSD, etc... Of course, I'd love to fire back with some System V jokes. If anybody has any, please post 'em!! Thanks :-), Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 17:54:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1506C1561B for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:54:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13901; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:53:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd013852; Tue Sep 7 17:52:59 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA16284; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:52:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909080052.RAA16284@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause To: regnauld@ftf.net (Phil Regnauld) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:52:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bright@wintelcom.net, davids@webmaster.com, brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, walton@nordicrecords.com In-Reply-To: <19990903111035.34383@ns.int.ftf.net> from "Phil Regnauld" at Sep 3, 99 11:10:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > No need for sarcasm, the GPL makes it impossible for commercial companies > > to incorperate GPL'd code into a propriatary product. This kills the > > competative advantage the company has. > > There, you said it: "makes it impossible for commercial companies" -- > that assumes a certain definition of "commercial companies", and > to what extent it's "impossible" for them. In the traditional > approach of protecting a trade-secret, maybe. But I like > people to explain things instead of repeating them like lemmings. It has nothing to do with "trade secret protection", since if the code is published to other than a "select group", trade secret protection is lost. A "General Public License" does not qualify as restricting publication to a select group. The only possible recourse to the former trade secret holder is to attempt to recover damages from the act of disclosure itself. This is why BSDI hid behind UCB when USL came knocking. In point of fact, the danger lies in two areas: 1) Dilution of intellectual property rights, specifically implicit grants of license to use process patents when the patented process is embodied in software. It is my understanding that this is why IBM bought Whistle (FreeBSD based) instead of someone else (Linux based); the GPL would have been a deal-breaker. This is also why you should not expect Red Hat software to ever be acquired by anyone with any large amount of any kind of intellectual property: they will flourish or they will languish on their own, but they won't be bought out by a multibillion dollar corporation which wants to remain a multibillion dolar corporation. 2) Commercial companies expect to benefit from expenditures, to the point of recovering them, plus some profit margin. This is true of any company which meets I.R.S. requirments for definition as a "for profit" company. A "for profit" (subchapter C, or "C-Corp") must show a profit after two years of operation, or be disbanded. You could imagine other types of companies, which exist to spend money and never recover it, but generally relatives are a better means of losing money; at least you get birthday cards out of it. This means, in technical terms, that a company that has expended research and developement monies expects to be able to make the money back over the projected product lifetime. The product lifetime is defined (by companies which remain in business, anyway) as the amount of time that the product may be sold in the market place at a continued net profit. The total net profit is the amount of net profit recovered above and beyond the the initial investment, over the total product lifecycle. This means that if you sink 5 billion into a product, you must get 5 billion plus 5 billion times net profit margin out. If this isn't going to happen because someone can buy one of your widgets for a relatively small sum, and then demand your source code, then use that to produce their own widgets, you've effectively flushed your 5 billion down the sewer. Now it might be nice in theory to think that everyone will pool their R&D money, finance common projects, and reap a proportional share of the rewards... but this is reality, not some socialist fantasy-land. All it takes is one player who doesn't put into the R&D fund, and all of the players who did are screwed. This is why there is big money in industrial espionage (and why some companys are willing to engage in dire behaviour to deal with spies). > There was a very good interview (in one Login of L. Peter Deutsch about > his writing Ghostscript, and why he regretted using the GPL). I would be interested in obtaining a pointer to this interview, if you have it. > > Although many companies play the GPL game, this sort of symbiotic > > relationship would not be possible under the GPL and it makes for > > a much more attractive codebase. > > I don't know about "not possible" -- more difficult in > a very competitive envrionment, maybe. The relationship he is describing is one in which tactical information is disclosed, and strategic information is held back. Strategic information has a finite shelf-life, and eventaully degrades either into "tactical" or "don't care". This is why Whistle (my employer) funded the soft updates work in FreeBSD, with the understanding that the restrictive license would expire (in other words, soft updates would "turn tactical") after a certain amount of time. This particular symbiotic relationship would not have been possible under the GPL, since the code could not have been held back under another license, since it must be linked with the kernel, which, if GPL'ed, would render the whole GPL'ed. In this situation, FreeBSD would not have gotten soft updates at all, since it's only the fact that Whistle is able to amortize the costs of developement over a (generously short) lifecycle that enables Whistle to remain profitable. And therefore capable of funding such R&D efforts. Similar examples exist elsewhere. The Juniper Systems firewall code, and the resulting general availability of smtpd/smtpfwdd, is one. So is the Whistle-provided NetGraph code in FreeBSD, and the Frame Relay support it brings to FreeBSD with it. A license is a transaction: it pays people in value, and you must hope that (or work to educate them until) they are enlightened enough to see the difference between "tactical" and "strategic", and act accordingly. The Internet exists today because of the UCB license on the Net/1 and Net/2 code, which resulted in the ubiquity of TCP/IP. Can you provide one example of a monumental undertaking which would not exist without the GPL? Compilers don't count, since compilers existed before GCC; the entire output of the GNU project is merely a duplication of preexisting private (or in the case of Linux, public) efforts. The Internet was an unexpected consequence of the UCB license; yet consequence of that license, it is. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 18: 1:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5476615726 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA54681; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:01:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:01:04 -0400 (EDT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality To: Steven Kehlet Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Steven Kehlet wrote: | I've got a guy here giving me a lot of grief about how System V is | taking over the world, therefore it's superior over BSD, etc... Of | course, I'd love to fire back with some System V jokes. If anybody has | any, please post 'em!! No need to. SysV already is a joke. *duck* :) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ There are more stars in the sky than there are -><- grains of sand on all the beaches of the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 19:42:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0183414F28 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF63F3461; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:42:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Steven Kehlet Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From The New Hacker's Dictionary, 3e. Missed'em-five n. Pejorative hackerism for AT&T System V Unix, generally used by BSD partisans in a bigoted mood. (The synonym 'SysVile' is also encountered.) See software bloat, Berzerkeley. I always said AIX looked like a train wreck between SysV and BSD - parts everywhere and you can't tell which belongs with which! Of course, one of the most popular releases of SysV is Slowaris... Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Steven Kehlet wrote: > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:40:41 -0700 (PDT) > From: Steven Kehlet > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: anyone have System V jokes? > > I've got a guy here giving me a lot of grief about how System V is > taking over the world, therefore it's superior over BSD, etc... Of > course, I'd love to fire back with some System V jokes. If anybody has > any, please post 'em!! > > Thanks :-), > > Steve > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 21:38: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9110A14F42 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-78-34-78.ath.bellsouth.net [216.78.34.78]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13308; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:34:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA00788; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:40:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199909080440.AAA00788@bellsouth.net> To: Roelof Osinga Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door opentoNSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 04:20:49 +0200." <37D47681.9F58E0E4@nisser.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 00:40:49 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Great for the consultants among us, but bad for marketing. Somehow > I can't see all people caring enough all the time. Call me cynical . Bingo! What is needed is to convince more small business people to consider using a consultant for the occasional updates like the sendmail thing you mention. Instead, most people seem to have been conned into the Microsoft way of continual and expensive software updates while trying to do everything for themselves. Sorry, but more small businesses are strung together with half-assed newbie spreadsheets than not. Which way is really more expensive? Which way keeps money in your community and helps provide local employment? The current situation is a result of very effective marketing and unethical business practices by Microsoft, not any real gains in productivity from using their software. With a small amount of handholding by competent consultants, I'll argue that FreeBSD offers much lower total cost of ownership than a Microsoft-based approach for small and large businesses alike. Microsoft is the Wal-Mart of the software industry. Support your local computer consultants! Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 21:40:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0858314F42 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from walton@nordicrecords.com) Received: (qmail 19576 invoked by alias); 8 Sep 1999 04:40:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19990908044028.19573.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 19562 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 04:40:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 04:40:28 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:38:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Reply-To: walton@nordicrecords.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199909080019.RAA14584@usr06.primenet.com> References: <19990903231722.7492.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> from "Dave Walton" at Sep 3, 99 04:15:03 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Sep 99, at 0:19, Terry Lambert wrote: > The "Claim Credit" clause, sometimes wrongly called > the advertising caluse by people who don't understand that it does > not invoke unless you try to claim credit for the code, I don't understand. I don't see anything conditional about clause 3. How is it that it only applies when you try to claim credit? > It may well be that someone will attempt to GPL all of the BSD4.4 > code. It may also be that Jordan Hubbard will have success pushing > the 2 caluse license, thus allowing a FreeBSD distribution to be > GPL'ed. > > > > The removal of the advertising clause makes it possible to > > > relicense BSD code under the GPL. > > > > Does it? Only the copyright holder can change the license, and > > they can do that whether or not there is an advertising clause. > > Removal of that clause doesn't allow a third party to change the > > license, because they don't have that right. > > It makes it possible to license unmodified BSD4.4-Lite2 derived > code under GPL (assuming it's not a hoax). Ok, now I'm completely confused. How is it possible for someone other than the copyright holder to take unmodified copyrighted code and release it under a different license?? Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton Webmaster, Postmaster Nordic Entertainment Worldwide walton@nordicdms.com http://www.nordicdms.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 22:51:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B580F14EFC for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:51:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28471; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 16:09:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:09:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Eric Wayte Cc: Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Eric Wayte wrote: > >From The New Hacker's Dictionary, 3e. > > Missed'em-five n. Pejorative hackerism for AT&T System V Unix, generally > used by BSD partisans in a bigoted mood. (The synonym 'SysVile' is also > encountered.) See software bloat, Berzerkeley. > > > I always said AIX looked like a train wreck between SysV and BSD - parts > everywhere and you can't tell which belongs with which! > > Of course, one of the most popular releases of SysV is Slowaris... I think tli and streams pretty much sums it up, oh and init levels... *running for cover* -Alfred > > > Eric Wayte, DBA > Univ. of Central Florida > ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu > > On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Steven Kehlet wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:40:41 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Steven Kehlet > > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: anyone have System V jokes? > > > > I've got a guy here giving me a lot of grief about how System V is > > taking over the world, therefore it's superior over BSD, etc... Of > > course, I'd love to fire back with some System V jokes. If anybody has > > any, please post 'em!! > > > > Thanks :-), > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 7 23: 9: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from localhost.primenet.com (206-132-48-50.nas-1.SCF.primenet.com [206.132.48.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D245015BC0 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:08:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@primenet.com) Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by localhost.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00430; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:03:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jreynold@primenet.com) From: John and Jennifer Reynolds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14293.64545.519883.946383@localhost.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:03:13 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: test message X-Mailer: VM 6.73 under Emacs 20.3.1 Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I needed an address to test sendmail with ... there didn't appear to be a freebsd-test@freebsd.org so, I just used chat ... forgive! -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= John Reynolds Chandler Capabilities Engineering, CDS, Intel Corporation jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com My opinions are mine, not Intel's. Running jreynold@primenet.com FreeBSD 3.3-RC. FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.primenet.com/~jreynold/ Come join us!!! @ http://www.FreeBSD.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 0:29: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD3514EDE for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA16930 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:28:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:28:12 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: September San Francisco BAFUG Message-ID: <19990908002812.A16918@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- San Francisco BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) September 1999 Meeting The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, September 9th. This months meeting will be held at Whistle's corp. office in Foster City. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda : ==> Our main speaker will be Warn Nimmo from Fastlane Software will be giving a talk on network monitoring and demonstration of their XNI Network Monitoring and Recording Software recently reviewed in SysAdmin Magazine. There software is available for Linux and FreeBSD. If you ever wished you could see what is going on on your network, Who is using what, who did what when and provide automated metered bandwidth billing, you want to learn about their software. Not only will it show you real time usage, but it can keep a years worth of logs in its integrated Mysql database using only about 20 MB of space. ==> Josef Grosch and Nicole Harrington will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon which, at this time, is not yet scheduled. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location : This months meeting will be held at Whistle Communications. Whistle is located at 110 Marsh Dr. in Foster City. There is plenty parking in their lot. Time : The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions : By CalTrain : Exit at the downtown San Mateo station, and walk several miles east on Third Avenue to the Marsh Drive intersection. Alternatively, exit at the Bay Meadows station and take the SanTrans Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus to the Bridgepoint Shopping Center stop and walk 1/4 mile north on Mariner's Island Blvd. to Third Avenue, turning right one block to Marsh Drive. By SamTrans : The Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus line's Bridgepoint Shopping Center terminus is a few blocks from Whistle Communications. By Car : From the South Bay and Peninsula : Take 101 North to San Francisco, From US-101 northbound, take CA-92 eastbound a mile to the Foster City Blvd., turning left (east) at the end of the ramp onto Metro Center Blvd. Go about a block and turn left (north-east) onto Foster City Blvd. Go about five blocks to the street's end, turning left (north) onto Third Avenue. Go about a block to turn left (west) at the first traffic light, onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. From the East Bay : From US-101 southbound, exit eastbound onto Third Avenue proceeding several miles, past the Mariner's Island Blvd. intersection, to turn right (west) onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. From the North Bay and San Francisco : From CA-92/Hayward, cross the San Mateo Bridge and take the first exit Foster City Blvd., curving right at the end of the ramp to a left (nort-east) turn onto Foster City Blvd. Then process as described above for US-101 northbound. WWW info : More info can be found at the following URLs Whistle Communications - http://www.whistle.com BAFUG - http://www.bafug.org Contact : Please contact either Nicole Harrington or Josef Grosch on or before September 9th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 0:34:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CBEF1568F for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA31882; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:33:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: walton@nordicrecords.com Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause References: <19990903231722.7492.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> from "Dave Walton" at Sep 3, 99 04:15:03 pm <19990908044028.19573.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Sep 1999 09:33:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Dave Walton"'s message of "Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:38:10 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dave Walton" writes: > On 8 Sep 99, at 0:19, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The "Claim Credit" clause, sometimes wrongly called > > the advertising caluse by people who don't understand that it does > > not invoke unless you try to claim credit for the code, > I don't understand. I don't see anything conditional about clause 3. > How is it that it only applies when you try to claim credit? It only applies if you specifically mention the BSD-licensed code in your advertising material. If, for instance, Microsoft printed "Includes a command-line FTP client!" in Windows ads, they'd have to add "This product includes software developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors.". But they don't, so it doesn't apply. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 0:37:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51B7156A0 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA31899; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:36:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: John and Jennifer Reynolds Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: test message References: <14293.64545.519883.946383@localhost.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Sep 1999 09:36:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: John and Jennifer Reynolds's message of "Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:03:13 -0700 (MST)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John and Jennifer Reynolds writes: > I needed an address to test sendmail with ... there didn't appear to be a > freebsd-test@freebsd.org so, I just used chat ... forgive! There is. (Does the fact that I subscribe to it make me a nerd?) There are also auto-repliers out there that will send back any mail they receive with complete headers; I don't remember any addresses off-hand, but I think they're mentioned in the Red Book. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1: 2:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A36E14E75 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:02:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id JAA24341; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:58:17 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA90961; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:02:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:02:07 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Tue, Sep 07, 1999 at 11:09:35PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein writes: > > Of course, one of the most popular releases of SysV is Slowaris... > > I think tli and streams pretty much sums it up, oh and init levels... During the Usenix "TCP/IP network programming" tutorial , Richard Stevens (RIP...), was quick to point out that since Solaris 2.6, they have reimplemented native sockets without using streams :-) Performance was too pathetic :-) Other annoyances: /etc/rc.d (so far, I can describe it as: "theoretically cool, practically useless" -- noone almost ever uses that junk). /etc/inittab etc.. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1: 9:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (216-200-29-190.snj0.flashcom.net [216.200.29.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4A714F6C for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:09:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16957 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199909080803.BAA16957@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 01:03:20 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly By Ben Laurie & Peter Laurie On page 12, " We experimented with SCO Unix and QNX, which both support Apache, before settling on FreeBSD as the best enviroment for this exercise. The whole FreeBSD is available -- free-- from http://www.freebsd.org, but sending $69.95 (plus shipping ) to Walnut Creek (at http://www.cdrom.com ) get your four CD-ROMs ...." Now thats a nice plug !! Enjoy -- Amancio Hasty hasty@rah.star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:11:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC7A14F6C for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:11:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA32015; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:11:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? References: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Sep 1999 10:11:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: Phil Regnauld's message of "Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:02:07 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Phil Regnauld writes: > /etc/rc.d (so far, I can describe it as: "theoretically cool, practically > useless" -- noone almost ever uses that junk). Um, I don't know about Solaris, but it seems to work pretty well on IRIX (disregarding the fact that it defaults to enable *all* services, and that it's not always easy to find out what a particular service is or why the machine stops working when you disable it) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:16:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7DF14F6C for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02653; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:44:03 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990908174403:656=_"; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" In-Reply-To: <199909080803.BAA16957@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:44:03 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Amancio Hasty Subject: RE: Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990908174403:656=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 08-Sep-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: > is available -- free-- from http://www.freebsd.org, but sending $69.95 (plus > shipping ) to Walnut Creek (at http://www.cdrom.com ) get your four > CD-ROMs ...." > Now thats a nice plug !! Yes its nice :) Pitty they didn't mention the correct price :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990908174403:656=_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBN9Yay1bYW/HEoF9pAQEvFwP/Y//Y0Kos4iIweH3fluJMvg9M0PgbWFA3 1aJBgpzwvLMHw9eU5itQdggbSYjJGDTTgkx+MpHRuyTwet1ZVxJOa+pnTVJRJNHH pMG4mpQVKCoQLHCKzFcW5mxEfB9Yi0yEBvXO+/c67VdKMuXIjuDVBBgYWdbsf/Os fcf3l4eGvhk= =a2QW -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990908174403:656=_-- End of MIME message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:17:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1A51568D for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:17:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA32062; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:15:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly References: <199909080803.BAA16957@rah.star-gate.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Sep 1999 10:15:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Amancio Hasty's message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 01:03:20 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty writes: > On page 12, > " We experimented with SCO Unix and QNX, which both support Apache, before > settling on FreeBSD as the best enviroment for this exercise. The whole FreeBSD > is available -- free-- from http://www.freebsd.org, but sending $69.95 (plus > shipping ) to Walnut Creek (at http://www.cdrom.com ) get your four > CD-ROMs ...." > > Now thats a nice plug !! Yes. Too bad the book is absolute crap. I bought it, spectacularly failed to be impressed, and quickly relegated it to a shelf. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:20:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9977915021 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11400 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:19:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990907214739.047c3bc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 23:49:26 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Catching up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As often happens, I've fallen behind on my mailing list participation due to heavy responsibilities in the Real World. (My wife and I have just remodeled not one but two houses; I'm using FreeBSD to re-network a local business whose networks were strung together by several ex-employees and are a BIG mess, and I've got several tricky hunks of assembly language -- my specialty -- to write under contract.) So, rather than responding to the zillion messages in my "FreeBSD-Chat" mailbox individually, I'll respond to parts of them in a handful of messages. I think it's important to address some of the issues that have been raised in response to my postings, and want to keep the discussions as free of flames as possible (despite some of the ad hominem attacks that seem to have been lobbed at me). I'll do my best to do this in the messages that follow. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:20:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52BE14D2F for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:20:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11407; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:19:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990907232353.047be890@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 23:40:35 -0600 To: Frank Pawlak From: Brett Glass Subject: Beating the drum and flaming as a diversionary tactic Cc: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990901215045.A10001@quark.feynman.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990901193136.00c4f360@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> <804.936177954@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> <19990901185228.A9481@quark.feynman.com> <4.2.0.58.19990901193136.00c4f360@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:50 PM 9/1/99 -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: >Correct, disagreement is not a reason to lose respect for a person. >However, I am getting the feeling that you a beating a hollow drum. A drum that isn't hollow doesn't make much of a sound. ;-) Seriously, though, I take great pains to explain and back up my arguments. I've spent about three hours of time which I could have spent in more enjoyable pursuits answering messages in this thread this evening, and doing so as thoughtfully as I can. >For >sake of argument, let's just assume that perhaps Jordan, and David have >solid ground on which to base their argument. My point, as explained in earlier messages, is that their most solid numbers -- and even their projections -- support different conclusions than the ones they draw. It is, for example, mathematically provable that David Greenman's projected growth curve, which I believe is overly optimistic, has Linux pulling away from FreeBSD at an exponential rate. > In my own humble way I >have seen evidence that would tend to corroborate their statements. For >example, a year or so ago I didn't see much BSD except at ISPs. Where as >today I am finding it in IS departments right along with Linux. And, am >hearing such things like it makes for a better server platform. Is this >smoke and mirrors? No. However, it IS anecdotal rather than a scientific sample. >As to your motives, at this point that appears to be an open question. I >think that we are all very clear that you have issues with the marketing >program. But, your tactics are not going to get it done, and you are >smart enough to know that. I have read some of your articles which >indicate a level headed approach to the issues. On this forum that >approach appears to be missing. Unless your motives are to constantly >piss people off. I am taking exactly the same approach here as in my published articles, and am expressing the same ideas. The difference, I fear, is that angry responses generated by a relatively small number of people may be coloring your opinion of what I write. This is an old technique that's often used in online discussion forums: if you don't like what someone says, flame him or her and encourage others to do so. The writer is quickly branded as disruptive, and some sensitive and intelligent people dismiss his or her ideas, however well-reasoned. Attempts to ridicule and flame me in this forum -- which, as you'll see if you review the thread, have been mounted by only a few people -- are an example of this technique. But all of this is a meta-discussion, and I'd like to get back on track. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:21:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE10614D2F for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11422; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:19:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990907234944.047c0980@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 01:55:39 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: FreeBSD market share statistics Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <12874.936232439@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:33 PM 9/1/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Is the notoriously well clued-in > > > Gartner Group's (NOT) claim that Linux is the only non-Microsoft OS > > > to gain marketshare any more credible? > > > > Yes. They're paid big bucks and are in a fiercely competitive market > > where customers demand accuracy. > >Haha. You have a lot more trust in people who are paid big bucks than >I do, clearly, and also are assuming that their results aren't simply >OLD at this point. When was that report generated? What figures were >the person or persons generating the report using at the time? It's >quite possible for highly skilled, well-paid people to make mistakes >even with the best of intentions or we wouldn't have lost a shuttle >and the U.S. government would operate like a swiss watch (one could >correctly deem international politics to be "fiercely competetive" and >the US government is certainly paid some of the biggest bucks of all). >And no, this isn't simply a straw-man argument, this is a direct >refutation of your claim that being in a competetive market and being >paid big bucks is some sort of instant ticket to Objective Truth(tm). As Petruchio says in Shakespeare's "The Taming of the Shrew," "Thou know'st not gold's effect." If The Gartner Group loses a single client due to an inaccurate report on its market segment, that's tens of thousands of dollars (maybe millions) out the window. This is a very good incentive to be thorough and accurate; it also means that the resources are available to compile an accurate report. Gartner has a very good reputation for coming up with good numbers with which one can successfully gauge markets and predict trends. I daresay they're a more reliable source than Walnut Creek's download numbers, which are skewed in favor of FreeBSD and certainly exceed the actual installed base. >...I don't >think you're even bothering to try and look for data beyond what's >already been chewed up and regurgitated by the likes of the Gartner >Group. Not so. I've simply cited the best numbers I've found -- including David's OWN numbers, which support my analysis. >David asked for numbers and so far all you've given us is >somebody's canned report and a single URL from the notoriously >inaccurate "queso" stats (and for more info on why I think it's >inaccurate, do a slashdot search for "queso" and read up on the >flames). That's not citing stats, that's looking for one or two >numbers which fit your agenda and then stopping there. It's poor >science and it's a poor argument. As I've pointed out elsewhere, "queso" overestimates the number of BSD systems and thus produces results which are skewed in BSD's favor. Yet, even given that handicap, the BSDs are shown as falling behind. > > Even David G., whose projections of FreeBSD's growth seem to me to be > > overly optimistic, admits that the gap between Linux and FreeBSD > > is growing. On April 15th of this year, he wrote: > >Now here's an issue we can actually agree on. OF COURSE there's a >growing "gap" between the Linux and FreeBSD camps - I've pointed out >many times that it's definitely the Linux people who are currently >enjoying their 15 minutes of fame and given that they're in the >spotlight, only a fool would suggest that they're going to get the >most hit points right now. That "gap", however, is not the issue. I disagree; I think it's an important issue. It's a predictor of when we'll see, for example, native ports of commercial software such as WordPerfect Office, TripWire (the up-to-date version), Borland Delphi, CodeWarrior, etc. for FreeBSD. The manufacturers of all of the above products say that, due to the gap, they have no plans to provide native FreeBSD ports. And what about such mainstays as TurboTax? For Linux, one day, maybe. For FreeBSD? Not unless it catches up. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:21:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C27915A23 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:21:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11419; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:19:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990907234242.047cf9b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 23:47:39 -0600 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The chat charter. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <"Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:38:51 -0700"> <12893.936232731@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:29 AM 9/2/99 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >It's not about a strong conflict of views. It's about Brett's >inferiority complex and his habit of going off on a Jihad against you >just to get some attention. "Inferiority complex?" "Jihad?" "Just to get some attention?" Please get real. None of these groundless accusations is true and you know it. In fact, this sort of argument ad hominem is exactly the sort of noise that you yourself have complained about on this list! If you don't wish to participate in the discussion, that's fine -- but please don't ruin things for those of us who do. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:22:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136D414D2F for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:22:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11427; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:19:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908000958.047d7df0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 00:13:35 -0600 To: Gregory Sutter From: Brett Glass Subject: Being wrong Cc: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990901174106.D20512@forty-two.egroups.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990901170732.04847ea0@localhost> <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> <4.2.0.58.19990901164908.047b2c90@localhost> <37CDB007.7F798F1A@vangelderen.org> <4.2.0.58.19990901170732.04847ea0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:41 PM 9/1/99 -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: >Brett, you obviously are an intelligent and reasonably well-read >person who has a lot of good ideas. However, in all the time I've >been reading your posts, you have never, ever, not even _once_ >shown any sign or wrote any word that would _ever_ imply that you >are incorrect about _anything_. Not so. I'm glad to admit when I'm wrong and to learn from it. However, in the current discussion, those who have been debating against my views have not only failed to show that I am wrong but have produced numbers which -- while I believe they're biased -- actually support my arguments! So, I think I have a strong case. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:22:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C461543A for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11414; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:19:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990907234101.047bdbd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 23:42:15 -0600 To: "James Gill" , "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990901164908.047b2c90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:53 PM 9/1/99 -0400, James Gill wrote: >and at last check there is no journaling filesystem or bretthat >distribution. "Bretthat?" I like that name. Mind if I use it? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:22:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20A315A7D for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11404; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:19:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 02:17:30 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Rod Taylor , mmeola@uswest.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: My proposals for the future [Long] In-Reply-To: <7838.936165770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rod Taylor writes: >I'm mildly interested in what you consider these [problems with the >promotion of FreeBSD] to be. I've elaborated on some of these in earlier messages. To cover them with a rather broad brush, they include: 1. An exponentially growing gap between the sizes of the BSD and Linux user bases, coupled with slowly declining market share; 2. A lack of the sort of aggressive, contagious advocacy that continues to fuel the spread of Linux; 3. A lack of the sort of venture capital and well-financed commercial promotion now being expended on Linux; 4. A lack of interest on the part of large application developers (due primarily to item 1 above); 5. An "elitist" attitude which discourages even very talented potential contributors to the code base; 6. A shortage of contributors to handle known problems in the code base (due to items 1 and 5 above); and 7. A failure to recognize the value of a large and growing user base. >Can we fix these problems? Are they problems, or choices >with long term payoffs rather than immediate. They are problems. There is no long-term benefit to falling behind Linux, either technically or in market share. > Does FreeBSD want a larger userbase, afterall... With the good, >comes the bad. A larger user base helps everyone involved with FreeBSD to better realize his or her goals. For example, suppose you are a developer of FreeBSD. You may be doing it because you like doing good work, or because you want people to benefit from using your code, or because you take pride in a job well done, or because the availability of FreeBSD helps you to perform other tasks or makes your business more successful. You may also wish to make money supporting or extending FreeBSD. In all of these cases, a larger user base furthers your goal. If you have a sense of pride and accomplishment when you write good code that benefits others, you will know that you have benefited more people if the user base is larger. If you use FreeBSD in your business, a larger user base means more contributions and improvements and hence a BETTER tool for the task. What's more, it means a larger range of available commercial applications for your use. (Many are now available for Linux but not for FreeBSD; they only work under emulation, if at all.) If you want to make a living supporting or extending FreeBSD for clients, or writing about it, a larger user base means more demand for what you do. Some people on this list have sneered, somewhat contemptuously, at the "hordes" of newbies that flock to a popular OS. But this is elitism at its worst. We were all "newbies" once (as I was when I first encountered UNIX in 1977), and everyone deserves to benefit from a good thing. Jordan Hubbard writes: >...I don't see what purpose would >be served by trying to do a "Michael Jackson", only to become rapidly >overwhelmed by an influx of screaming fans (though ours scream for >different and less pleasant reasons) and resulting in us seeing core >and all our principal developers retiring to various fenced retreats >with only monkeys and small children for company. Matt Meola writes: >To specifically target the masses >for wholescale conversion to FreeBSD is to degrade the overall quality >of the userbase. The above comments seem to echo Aesop's fable of the fox and the grapes: "I don't WANT all those users; they're no good anyway." Fact is, the majority of Linux users are not "screaming fans" but rather satisfied customers. While they may not recognize the harm they may do by supporting a GPLed product, the fact that they've recognized that a collaboratively developed UNIX-like OS is a valuable asset is certainly a point in their favor. If you don't want 'em, can I have 'em? ;-) Jordan Hubbard writes: >Sometimes it's >possible to grow TOO fast, and let me just remind you that where >"Linux" gets to spread the load across a whole bunch of different >distributions and literally thousands of developers, many of whom are >paid for their full-time work by the likes of Red Hat, Caldera, SUSE >and TurboLinux, we have only one FreeBSD and one group of people to >hold the line. Should FreeBSD gain user base, the number of contributors will likewise grow. There will be room for more specialization in the core team because there will be more skilled members. Linus Torvalds does not seem to have become any less productive in his improvements or refinements to the Linux kernel since Linux grabbed the spotlight, so there's no reason to fear that FreeBSD will have such problems. As for having "one FreeBSD" -- there's no reason why there can't be more than one distribution. (In fact, there are now. There are Cheap Bytes and PicoBSD as well as Walnut Creek's multiple FreeBSD packages.) However, it's likely that distributions of FreeBSD will have lots more in common than the many distributions of Linux, which is a good thing. Rod Taylor writes: >Rather than defending your yet to be shared thoughts. Please discuss, with me >if noone else, just what we can do. FreeBSD needs a strongly marketed, strongly evangelized, heavily supported distribution that surpasses anything now available in the Linux world technically and can catch up with Linux's growth curve. As I've mentioned, I've been approached by some folks who know of my previous work (most of which has been done under contract; you'd recognize some of the clients' names) and asked if I'd be willing to take one of the BSDs -- FreeBSD or OpenBSD, most likely -- and do a strong, commercial (but open source) BSD UNIX. This leads into some of Jordan Hubbard's comments. I wrote that I was concerned that Walnut Creek -- which, since it employs Jordan and runs the main distribution site for FreeBSD -- has a very strong grip on the development of FreeBSD, and might do things to discourage competition with is own sales of FreeBSD disks. Jordan writes: >I'm also not sure if I even understand Brett's concerns about "Walnut >Creek CDROM taking FreeBSD private" since that's nothing we've ever >shown the slightest inclination to do and to even worry about such a >thing happening strikes me as nothing short of paranoid. If one is >frequently chased by little green aliens then one has every right to >worry about them, but if one has never even SEEN a little green alien >then it's probably rational to assume that it shouldn't rank high on >one's list of personal worries. I've seen this particular "little green man" before -- it's called "All's fair in love, war, and business." I don't subscribe to that attitude, but many businesspeople do. >It has always been Walnut Creek >CDROM's wish that FreeBSD be as open as possible, we've never made any >bones about that fact, and we've even sneakily tried sending sample >copies of our CDs to known pirates in Asia in hopes that they'd copy >the heck out of the disks and spread them (and the FreeBSD cause) far >and wide. Since that doesn't seem to have worked (the pirates are >picky and only seem to go for the high-dollar value products), Bob and >I are going to Japan, Hong Kong and China next month to try the more >direct route. We want FreeBSD to cover the earth and we'll do >whatever we can to make that happen. While all of this may be true, intentions can change. And -- again -- Walnut Creek does have much more control of the development of FreeBSD than, say, Red Hat has of the development of Linux. So, it's something the investors are justifiably concerned about. Remember, since Jordan works for Walnut Creek, the company can literally claim ownership of what he does, even over his protests. We need strong assurances not just from Jordan but from Walnut Creek as a company that this will not happen. Jordan further writes: >I also take issue with Brett's assertion that he's somehow >single-handedly responsible for FreeBSD's recent exposure in the Linux >market since that only a grave disservice to the time and energy that >I and many others have invested in showing up at Linux conferences, >participating in open source panels, going to the O'Reilly show, doing >television interviews, writing articles for electronic and paper >publications, etc etc. In fact, I can't recall seeing anything from >Brett since the article in "Smart Reseller" and that was more than 8 >months ago. I'm happy and even a little proud to say that my own >recent efforts at doing PR have been far more timely and effective >than anything I've seen recently from Brett, and I've every reason to >be - I've worked damn hard at it lately! My remarks in earlier messages were not intended, in any way, to belittle the contributions of others, but merely to point out that I've done a lot -- much of it behind the scenes -- to make sure that BSD UNIX is mentioned in the same breath as Linux whenever possible. Some of what I've done is in print; some is in e-mail to fellow writers; some is in public forums. But I've noticed a STRONG trend since I started doing this. The exposure seems to build on itself, and journalists who mention BSD along with Linux once tend to continue to do it from then on. And it spreads from colleague to colleague, too. I see the words of my messages paraphrased or even duplicated in the new material. So, I think I deserve a lot more credit than Jordan gives me for effective networking and consciousness-raising in journalistic circles. Jordan also seems to take issue with my notion that it is important to point out the deficiencies of Linux, especially its licensing. He writes: >Even though it may generate what look like short-term gains to turn >around and slam your competition, I think the long-term effects are >only negative and there is always a large contingent of folks who >*don't* react well to this kind of "advertising" and will, >furthermore, never forget it if you do it so much as ONCE. When it >comes to mud-slinging, memories are long and I think we've all worked >too hard to have a reputation for more maturity and level-headedness >than this. Sure, there is probably always some collection of angry >teens out there who won't flock to your cause if you're not burning >something or getting a gang together to go kick the other side's >butts, but that kind of "action" is not our cup of tea and I prefer to >leave the knife-fighting for the West Side Story fans and those who >feel that they're not achieving something if they haven't kicked a few >puppies before breakfast. To characterize the sort of advocacy I'd like to do as "kicking puppies" is, of course, to miss the point. Good marketing involves a push as well as a pull; people need to realize that there are deficiencies in what they are already using before they will consider alternatives. ("You mean that ALL operating systems don't crash as often as Windows? I thought that was just part of the way computers worked.") What's more, the idea that a problem exists is more likely to rouse people to action than the idea that all's right with the world. The notion that there's a problem -- or, worse yet, a looming crisis -- is more contagious, or memetically fit, than the idea that things are fine. Aaron Lynch, in his book "Thought Contagion," writes: "Thought contagions spread fastest via *proselytic* transmission.... The conviction 'My country is dangerously low on weapons' illustrates proselytic advantage. The idea strikes fear in its hosts for both their own and their compatriots' lives. That fear drives them to persuade others of military weakness to build pressure for doing something about it. So the believe, through the side effect of fear, triggers proselytizing. Meanwhile, alternative opinions such as 'My country has enough weaponry' promote a sense of security and less urgency about changing others' minds." This principle accounts for the success of Christianity, as well as other religions -- such as Islam -- which preach that one is in imminent danger unless one takes action to achieve redemption and salvation. Does this mean that we should "bash" Linux or Windows at every opportunity? No -- however, the existence of a lunatic fringe, as with religion, is a sign that advocacy is successful. (Anything that successful stimulates emotions and creates strong attachments will cause a small number of people to go too far; it's just inevitable.) Fortunately, the downsides of having such a lunatic fringe are smaller for an OS than for a religion. The advocates of an OS are unlikely to try, for example, to take over the government, burn crosses on lawns, or stone you if you drive a car down the wrong street on the Sabbath. The Linux Loonies may be loud, but they make news and attract needed attention -- witness the "Windows Refund Day" events. And people are -- for the most part -- tuning them out if they find them obnoxious and using Linux anyway, as evidenced by Linux's continued growth curve. Nonetheless, effective advocacy of any product -- from soap to cars to long distance telephone service -- often involves convincing the user that he or she will be at a disadvantage, or will lose something -- perhaps time, money, or productivity -- by sticking with what he or she uses now. An operating system that does not do this is not memetically fit -- and, in keeping with the basic theory of replicators -- will be driven from its niche in the software ecology. It may not die entirely -- heck, there are folks still running all sorts of obsolete OSes -- but will not achieve the benefits of a widely used, actively developed, and well-supported OS. Jordan, however, questions whether a BSD UNIX distribution could ever catch up with Linux. In somewhat derogatory terms, he writes: >You can't really be so >egotistical as to asssume that you, single-handedly (or even you and >50 other guys with a few million dollars worth of capital), can >compete with Red Hat and its 2 billion dollar war market cap? Why not? Red Hat is competing with Microsoft, which recently surpassed the market cap of GE to achieve the largest market valuation of any company on Earth. >And >that's just ONE of groups you'd have to defeat to push Linux from its >perch. The folks at SUSE and TurboLinux might not be Red Hat but they >have their own millions, and I can assure you that they wouldn't take >any serious attempt to unseat them lying down. Yet still you come >here with your little war plans and your pointy stick and tell us that >we can all charge the enemy's line of assembled M1 tanks if we're all >just pure of heart and make sure to smear the magic chicken blood on >our chests which wards off bullets. It's got to be better than woad. [CF the song "Woad Warrior" (http://www.sff.net/people/Julia.West/songs/actslyrc.htm#woad) by Zander Nyrond (http://www.cix.co.uk/~zander/index.htm)]. >Uh huh. Go for it, Brett, and >we'll all be behind you in the follow-up attack, I promise. :-) Or would Walnut Creek -- and you, as an employee thereof -- shoot me in the back? Seriously: may I have your word, and Walnut Creek's, that you won't sabotage what I do if I manage to get these investors to cough up some money? If you do this, I could announce some positive results as soon as FreeBSDCon. >I'm still waiting for some concrete proposals from you which explain >just how exactly we're going to compete with Linux where it's >currently strongest without compromising our own principles for being >the technically sound, well thought-out solution. I've made quite a few, but they all boil down to this: good code and good memes. This is what makes a successful software product. But code quality is less important than good memes -- as is shown by the dominance of Windows, NT, and Linux over BeOS, OS/2, and FreeBSD. With better memes, FreeBSD could be successful. And there is nothing about success -- which I strongly sense from your messages that you fear -- that would compromise the technical soundness of FreeBSD. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:24:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F77D151BF for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:24:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA32133; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:23:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Catching up References: <4.2.0.58.19990907214739.047c3bc0@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Sep 1999 10:23:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 23:49:26 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > As often happens, I've fallen behind on my mailing list participation due > to heavy responsibilities in the Real World. There is a very simple solution to this problem. Unsubscribe. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:29:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (216-200-29-190.snj0.flashcom.net [216.200.29.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6B515B0B for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:29:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19363; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:23:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199909080823.BAA19363@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:44:03 +0930." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 01:23:36 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What the price went up ?? Because if not it should be 8) Cheers > This message is in MIME format > --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990908174403:656=_ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > On 08-Sep-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: > > is available -- free-- from http://www.freebsd.org, but sending $69.95 (plus > > shipping ) to Walnut Creek (at http://www.cdrom.com ) get your four > > CD-ROMs ...." > > Now thats a nice plug !! > > Yes its nice :) > > Pitty they didn't mention the correct price :) > > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum > > --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990908174403:656=_ > Content-Type: application/pgp-signature > > -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- > Version: 2.6.3ia > > iQCVAwUBN9Yay1bYW/HEoF9pAQEvFwP/Y//Y0Kos4iIweH3fluJMvg9M0PgbWFA3 > 1aJBgpzwvLMHw9eU5itQdggbSYjJGDTTgkx+MpHRuyTwet1ZVxJOa+pnTVJRJNHH > pMG4mpQVKCoQLHCKzFcW5mxEfB9Yi0yEBvXO+/c67VdKMuXIjuDVBBgYWdbsf/Os > fcf3l4eGvhk= > =a2QW > -----END PGP MESSAGE----- > > --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990908174403:656=_-- > End of MIME message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@rah.star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:30:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F291915602 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:30:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11535; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:29:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908022632.047c15c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 02:28:03 -0600 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Catching up Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990907214739.047c3bc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:23 AM 9/8/99 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Brett Glass writes: > > As often happens, I've fallen behind on my mailing list participation due > > to heavy responsibilities in the Real World. > >There is a very simple solution to this problem. Unsubscribe. One could avoid being hungry, or feelling pain, by committing suicide, too. But this is not what I would call an optimal solution. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:31:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (216-200-29-190.snj0.flashcom.net [216.200.29.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FCB15B07 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:31:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19403; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:28:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199909080828.BAA19403@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly In-reply-to: Your message of "08 Sep 1999 10:15:40 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 01:28:32 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Me thinks" that the "FreeBSD Press" should quote the book ! Cheers -- Amancio Hasty hasty@rah.star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:34:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A9714BEF for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:34:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA32191; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:33:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Amancio Hasty Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly References: <199909080823.BAA19363@rah.star-gate.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Sep 1999 10:33:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: Amancio Hasty's message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 01:23:36 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty writes: > What the price went up ?? Because if not it should be 8) No, the correct price is $39.95. You wrote $69.95. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 1:41:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (216-200-29-190.snj0.flashcom.net [216.200.29.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C73814EF3 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19465; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:36:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199909080836.BAA19465@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly In-reply-to: Your message of "08 Sep 1999 10:33:01 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 01:36:43 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am sorry the book on page 12 does state that the price is $69.95 and I am totally shock that the actual price of the CD is a low $39.95 8) Cheers > Amancio Hasty writes: > > What the price went up ?? Because if not it should be 8) > > No, the correct price is $39.95. You wrote $69.95. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no -- Amancio Hasty hasty@rah.star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 2:27:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05FE14C18 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:27:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.0.1) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:26:09 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (10.100.35.12 [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id SNZVMJ7B; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:25:16 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11Odze-000Hl3-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:26:18 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:26:18 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: MS & Linux duopoly Message-ID: <19990908102618.A68257@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i From: Dominic Mitchell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know Theo isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he does have a point here. There's too much linux specific code out there. http://www.idg.net/idg_frames/english/content.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.idg.com.au%2FCWT1997.nsf%2FHome%2Bpage%2F83CB1A288A3B3EB54A2567E5001FEF41%3FOpenDocument&return=%2fidg_frames%2fenglish%2ffeatures%2ehtml -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "vi has two modes the one in which it beeps and the one in which it doesnt." -- Anon. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 2:33: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDCF714F97 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA03568; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:29:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA91530; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:33:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990908113302.24553@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:33:02 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Terry Lambert Cc: bright@wintelcom.net, davids@webmaster.com, brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, walton@nordicrecords.com Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause References: <19990903111035.34383@ns.int.ftf.net> <199909080052.RAA16284@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199909080052.RAA16284@usr06.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 12:52:55AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > In point of fact, the danger lies in two areas: > > 1) Dilution of intellectual property rights, specifically > implicit grants of license to use process patents when > the patented process is embodied in software. Right -- also called a "brain drain" or "money drain" :-) > 2) Commercial companies expect to benefit from expenditures, > to the point of recovering them, plus some profit margin. [...] Fair enough, and a good explanation. > > There was a very good interview (in one Login of L. Peter Deutsch about > > his writing Ghostscript, and why he regretted using the GPL). > > I would be interested in obtaining a pointer to this interview, if > you have it. I will look it up on the usenix site. > Can you provide one example of a monumental undertaking which would > not exist without the GPL? Not offhand, no -- I will try and find some though :-) Mind you, I was in no way trying to defend the GPL -- I was merely hoping someone would come out and make things clear (the way you just did). -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 2:33:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4191534C for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.0.1) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:32:03 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (10.100.35.12 [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id SNZVMJ7P; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:31:10 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11Oe5N-000HmJ-00; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:32:13 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:32:13 +0100 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Phil Regnauld , Alfred Perlstein , Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? Message-ID: <19990908103212.A68320@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: From: Dominic Mitchell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 10:11:31AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Phil Regnauld writes: > > /etc/rc.d (so far, I can describe it as: "theoretically cool, practically > > useless" -- noone almost ever uses that junk). > > Um, I don't know about Solaris, but it seems to work pretty well on > IRIX (disregarding the fact that it defaults to enable *all* services, > and that it's not always easy to find out what a particular service is > or why the machine stops working when you disable it) Well, I don't know about IRIX, but I have definite problems with the Solaris implementation. For instance, because of the way that sun ship it, you can't "just turn off inetd". Half of the scrips don't have a stop section. In short, nice idea, but a pain to work with. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "vi has two modes the one in which it beeps and the one in which it doesnt." -- Anon. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 2:47:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C7C115082 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA05433; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:44:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA91668; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:48:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990908114806.04124@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:48:06 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD market share statistics References: <12874.936232439@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990907234944.047c0980@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990907234944.047c0980@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 01:55:39AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > > I disagree; I think it's an important issue. It's a predictor of when > we'll see, for example, native ports of commercial software such as > WordPerfect Office, TripWire (the up-to-date version), Borland Delphi, > CodeWarrior, etc. for FreeBSD. And Jordan (among others) all say: "who cares, give us a Linux version, standardize on it, and we'll run it". And we do. What's missing is install scripts that recognize FreeBSD. > The manufacturers of all of the above > products say that, due to the gap, they have no plans to provide > native FreeBSD ports. And what about such mainstays as TurboTax? > For Linux, one day, maybe. For FreeBSD? Not unless it catches up. They DON'T say due to the "gap"! They say, "when we have significant user base", that is "when we have x million". We're talking ABSOLUTE numbers, with a sizeable possible income, not relative market share! Please, find me ONE example of a vendor who's given "relative market share" as the excuse for not porting their product. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 3: 2:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC29814D4A for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 03:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA32492; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:02:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Phil Regnauld , Alfred Perlstein , Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? References: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990908103212.A68320@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Sep 1999 12:02:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: Dominic Mitchell's message of "Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:32:13 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dominic Mitchell writes: > Well, I don't know about IRIX, but I have definite problems with the > Solaris implementation. For instance, because of the way that sun ship > it, you can't "just turn off inetd". Half of the scrips don't have a > stop section. In short, nice idea, but a pain to work with. Don't blame the design for the shortcomings of the implementation... especially when those shortcomings would take 10 minutes to fix if the vendor bothered to fix them. An enormous advantage of the /etc/rc.d system (at least as implemented in IRIX) is that it makes it trivial to implement a checkbox-list- style UI for enabling / disabling services. Shouldn't be too hard to add dependency information either, so it prevents you from disabling services that are required by other (still enabled) services. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 3:20:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C6BA15B51 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 03:20:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id MAA09253 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:19:17 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA91871; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:23:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990908122307.51720@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:23:07 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My proposals for the future [Long] References: <7838.936165770@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 02:17:30AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > Rod Taylor writes: > > >I'm mildly interested in what you consider these [problems with the > >promotion of FreeBSD] to be. > > I've elaborated on some of these in earlier messages. To cover them with > a rather broad brush, they include: > > 1. An exponentially growing gap between the sizes of the BSD and Linux > user bases, coupled with slowly declining market share; Pointers, numbers, explanation ? > 2. A lack of the sort of aggressive, contagious advocacy that continues > to fuel the spread of Linux; Aggressive, contagious (viral?) being the sort of things we're trying to avoid. > 3. A lack of the sort of venture capital and well-financed commercial > promotion now being expended on Linux; Linux kernel != FreeBSD. Wanna start "RedHat FreeBSD" ? Be my guest! This is simplistic generalization: it's technology the "venture capital and fell-financed commercial promotion" is pushing, not an OS. Well-financed does not mean run-on-empty $4.5 billion potential market capitalization. > 4. A lack of interest on the part of large application developers (due > primarily to item 1 above); Shortcut conclusion. > 5. An "elitist" attitude which discourages even very talented > potential contributors to the code base; > 6. A shortage of contributors to handle known problems in the code > base (due to items 1 and 5 above); and Maybe -- that's probably the only thing people will agree to discuss based on the flawed/missing argumentation above. > 7. A failure to recognize the value of a large and growing user base. It is large, it is growing. > They are problems. There is no long-term benefit to falling behind > Linux, either technically or in market share. There is no long-term benefit of being Icarus or running head-down into the wall so obsessed we are by the color of our shoelaces. > In all of these cases, a larger user base furthers your goal. Not if your goal is a tightly-controlled project with quality over abundance. > a BETTER tool for the task. What's more, it means a larger range > of available commercial applications for your use. (Many are now > available for Linux but not for FreeBSD; they only work under > emulation, if at all.) If at all ? Like ? > The above comments seem to echo Aesop's fable of the fox and > the grapes: "I don't WANT all those users; they're no good anyway." That would be La Fontaine, but then again, I might get my classics wrong. There are several versions, and they don't all have the same moral. > Linus Torvalds does not seem to have become any less productive in his > improvements or refinements to the Linux kernel since Linux grabbed the > spotlight, so there's no reason to fear that FreeBSD will have > such problems. Are you kidding ? Look at the code / review+integration ratio of his lately, compared to people like Cox. > As for having "one FreeBSD" -- there's no reason why there can't be > more than one distribution. (In fact, there are now. There are > Cheap Bytes and PicoBSD as well as Walnut Creek's multiple FreeBSD > packages.) They're not distributions, and we already went over this. They're different packagings of the same distribution/OS. Only PicoBSD can qualify, and then again it's a derived product, not a distribution (unless you consider FreeBSD to be just a kernel + init). > However, it's likely that distributions of FreeBSD will have > lots more in common than the many distributions of Linux, which is a good > thing. ... for the first 6 months, yes. I mean, NetBSD stemmed from 386/FreeBSD... My oh my, how compatible we've become. > FreeBSD needs a strongly marketed, strongly evangelized, heavily supported > distribution that surpasses anything now available in the Linux world technically > and can catch up with Linux's growth curve. My turn to tell you, "get real": you call yourself realistic ? You think it's even *reasonable* to think we can catch up with Linux ? Sorry to sound like this, but this soufflé isn't going up. > by some folks who know of my previous work (most of which has been done under > contract; you'd recognize some of the clients' names) Great -- who ? Don't mention them if you can't name them -- who cares about "the dog ate my homework" argument. > distribution site for FreeBSD -- has a very strong grip on the > development of FreeBSD, and might do things to discourage competition > with is own sales of FreeBSD disks. Might. Maybe. Could. "With 'ifs' we could put Paris in a bottle". So ? > I've seen this particular "little green man" before -- it's called > "All's fair in love, war, and business." I don't subscribe to that > attitude, but many businesspeople do. Uhm, you're the one promoting "aggressive, contagious" advocacy, no ? > While all of this may be true, intentions can change. And -- again -- Yes, and the US might become a democracy one day. > Walnut Creek does have much more control of the development of FreeBSD > than, say, Red Hat has of the development of Linux. Yes, Terry spent a great deal of time and mailspace explaining why: it's called the GPL. > the investors are justifiably concerned about. Remember, since Jordan > works for Walnut Creek, the company can literally claim ownership of what > he does, even over his protests. We need strong assurances not just from > Jordan but from Walnut Creek as a company that this will not happen. Investors so far are mainly companies paying for contractual work (implementation of features, custom integration, etc...), and so far they're quite satisfied with BSD -- I've had trouble proving otherwise to Terry. > new material. So, I think I deserve a lot more credit than Jordan > gives me for effective networking and consciousness-raising in > journalistic circles. The work of martyrs and revolutionaries is ungratifying at best. > What's more, the idea that a problem exists is more likely to rouse > people to action than the idea that all's right with the world. > The notion that there's a problem -- or, worse yet, a looming > crisis -- is more contagious, or memetically fit, than the > idea that things are fine. Aaron Lynch, in his book "Thought > Contagion," writes: When there is documented, proven, and agreed evidence that there is a looming crisis. Solitary prophets claiming the world would come to an end (or that Mir would fall on Paris for that matter) are often wrong. This is teamwork, and this kind of insight is built on the work and efforts of other people. One might observe patterns, find correlations, and eventually deduce a common trend, but so far I've seen lots of talk and not much data. > "Thought contagions spread fastest via *proselytic* transmission.... Hey, why don't you start a BSD project with 6-people cells responsible for one part of the system, the leader of which only knows other cell leaders, and... oops, already taken. > The conviction 'My country is dangerously low on weapons' illustrates > proselytic advantage. The idea strikes fear in its hosts for both > their own and their compatriots' lives. That fear drives them to > persuade others of military weakness to build pressure for doing > something about it. Now *that's* a friendly, cooperative way to convince others to participate. I think that failed around 1989. > This principle accounts for the success of Christianity, as well as > other religions -- such as Islam -- which preach that one is in > imminent danger unless one takes action to achieve redemption > and salvation. Can you then explain the notion of Purgatory, its origins, and who it was intended for (in theory, and more essentially, who were the people who pushed for its "creation" ?) > Jordan, however, questions whether a BSD UNIX distribution could > ever catch up with Linux. In somewhat derogatory terms, he writes: [...] > Why not? Red Hat is competing with Microsoft, which recently surpassed > the market cap of GE to achieve the largest market valuation of any > company on Earth. ... which everyone with 1/4 oz. of brain matter on Wall Street will tell you is completely bogus and likely to capsize, like many other values. Hey, not to say RedHat is not successful. > Or would Walnut Creek -- and you, as an employee thereof -- shoot me > in the back? Seriously: may I have your word, and Walnut Creek's, that > you won't sabotage what I do if I manage to get these investors to > cough up some money? Why would they ? It's your own personal project. > I've made quite a few, but they all boil down to this: good code and > good memes. This is what makes a successful software product. But > code quality is less important than good memes -- as is shown by > the dominance of Windows, NT, and Linux over BeOS, OS/2, and FreeBSD. Oh cool, let's merge with NT. Hey everyone, let's stop improving the code, wear 3 piece suits, and offer shares to everyone in BrettBSD, Ltd. Ok, that was easy, but we know the line we're walking here, and this is not the world of OS/2 and BeOS. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 4:19:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.idiotswitch.org (cr575310-a.shprd1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.185.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34DE15032 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 04:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dark@idiotswitch.org) Received: from a11.idiotswitch.org (a11.idiotswitch.org [10.0.0.11]) by www.idiotswitch.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6ABE47C; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:16:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Rod Taylor To: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Looking for the actual proposal... Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:12:08 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain References: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99090807163506.00470@a11.idiotswitch.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok... Now I understand what you see are problems. I agree to some, while others I'm not sure of. Anyhow. Doesn't matter. After that you continued to defend yourself from the others on the list. Personally, I couldn't care less about how well you defend from attacks. The only valued point was that you though BSD wasn't yet a good enough product to compete with Linux. Now I ask, how can I, as the user help out in the cause. You threw out names, and problems, but still haven't even hinted at the solution of which so far you claim to know and have investors to fix. This is the only thing I'm interested in. I suggest you put your efforts into explaining whats in that basket rather than everyone elses. Thanks. -- Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers. -Leonard Brandwein -- Rod Taylor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 4:26:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FBA14FD3 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 04:26:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA32740; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:23:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Brett Glass Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Catching up References: <4.2.0.58.19990907214739.047c3bc0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990908022632.047c15c0@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Sep 1999 13:23:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 02:28:03 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 10:23 AM 9/8/99 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Brett Glass writes: > > > As often happens, I've fallen behind on my mailing list participation due > > > to heavy responsibilities in the Real World. > > There is a very simple solution to this problem. Unsubscribe. > One could avoid being hungry, or feelling pain, by committing suicide, too. > But this is not what I would call an optimal solution. Many times in the past you've "threatened" to leave the FreeBSD mailing lists and never return. I think it's high time you put your money where your mouth is. Go away. We're not interested. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 5:31:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84D014E5E for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 05:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 58F4F4264; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 352699C3A; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:30:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MS & Linux duopoly In-Reply-To: <19990908102618.A68257@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: :I know Theo isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he does have a point here. :There's too much linux specific code out there. : :http://www.idg.net/idg_frames/english/content.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.idg.com.au%2FCWT1997.nsf%2FHome%2Bpage%2F83CB1A288A3B3EB54A2567E5001FEF41%3FOpenDocument&return=%2fidg_frames%2fenglish%2ffeatures%2ehtml I didn't bother to hit the URL, but this isn't news. Things like X11amp and Cthugha are prime examples. Those are fluff. The non-fluff stuff that's becoming linux specific is pissing me off. It reminds me alot of when I had to take lots of freeware code written on SunOS and port it to Irix. What a nightmare. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 7:15:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D29601507D for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:15:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 69950 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1999 14:15:44 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 1999 14:15:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:15:44 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? In-Reply-To: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > /etc/rc.d (so far, I can describe it as: "theoretically cool, practically > useless" -- noone almost ever uses that junk). I like /sbin/rc?.d. Start and stop scripts for services are handy. > > /etc/inittab I like run levels, too. I don't like lots of SysV stuff (like ps, vmstat, df, /opt ...) but inittab is handy. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 7:27:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from localhost.primenet.com (206-132-48-74.nas-1.SCF.primenet.com [206.132.48.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD76C15088 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@primenet.com) Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by localhost.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA00950; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:29:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jreynold@primenet.com) From: John and Jennifer Reynolds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14294.29376.452723.165117@localhost.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 07:29:20 -0700 (MST) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: test message In-Reply-To: References: <14293.64545.519883.946383@localhost.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.73 under Emacs 20.3.1 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ On , September 8, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: ] > > There is. really? I looked at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL to see (before I sent to -chat :) but it didn't say the "service" existed. > (Does the fact that I subscribe to it make me a nerd?) NAAAAH :) > There are also auto-repliers out there that will send back any mail > they receive with complete headers; I don't remember any addresses > off-hand, but I think they're mentioned in the Red Book. [ On Wednesday, September 8, W Gerald Hicks wrote: ] > This is unforgivable. You must say fourty hail-mary's and contribute > some major new software to FreeBSD or you risk damnation to playing > Windows Solitaire for all eternity. As part of my repentence, I'll send in a patch mentioning that this -test list exists and I'll try to find an autoreplier and mention it somewhere ... on the bright side, my original message didn't bounce so it looks like I got my named and sendmail boogie-men sorted out :) Thanks the info guys! -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= John Reynolds Chandler Capabilities Engineering, CDS, Intel Corporation jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com My opinions are mine, not Intel's. Running jreynold@primenet.com FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE. FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.primenet.com/~jreynold/ Come join us!!! @ http://www.FreeBSD.org/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 8: 5:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5258014C12 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.0.1) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:04:33 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (10.100.35.12 [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id SNZVMKH5; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:03:39 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11OjH7-0000Et-00; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:04:41 +0100 Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:04:41 +0100 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Dominic Mitchell , Phil Regnauld , Alfred Perlstein , Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? Message-ID: <19990908160441.B811@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990908103212.A68320@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: From: Dominic Mitchell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 12:02:19PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Dominic Mitchell writes: > > Well, I don't know about IRIX, but I have definite problems with the > > Solaris implementation. For instance, because of the way that sun ship > > it, you can't "just turn off inetd". Half of the scrips don't have a > > stop section. In short, nice idea, but a pain to work with. > > Don't blame the design for the shortcomings of the implementation... > especially when those shortcomings would take 10 minutes to fix if the > vendor bothered to fix them. Oh, I agree entirely. > An enormous advantage of the /etc/rc.d system (at least as implemented > in IRIX) is that it makes it trivial to implement a checkbox-list- > style UI for enabling / disabling services. Shouldn't be too hard to > add dependency information either, so it prevents you from disabling > services that are required by other (still enabled) services. The dependency information can be a lot harder. There has been discussion about this in -hackers a while back. As usual, nothing came of it, though. I think Eivind was one of the instigators... -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "vi has two modes the one in which it beeps and the one in which it doesnt." -- Anon. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 8:14:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 924C115571 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14519; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:13:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:12:00 -0600 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Catching up Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990907214739.047c3bc0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990908022632.047c15c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:23 PM 9/8/99 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Many times in the past you've "threatened" to leave the FreeBSD >mailing lists and never return. Untrue. I did leave the "advocacy" list because the number of harrassing and abusive messages -- like yours here -- got too high. However, as administrator of several FreeBSD systems, I would be irresponsible to unsubscribe from the FreeBSD mailing lists I do monitor. >I think it's high time you put your >money where your mouth is. Go away. We're not interested. I note that you use the royal "we" here. Are you royalty? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 8:36:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE98014D7B for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:36:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14753; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:33:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:32:27 -0600 To: Rod Taylor , chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Looking for the actual proposal... In-Reply-To: <99090807163506.00470@a11.idiotswitch.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:12 AM 9/8/99 -0400, Rod Taylor wrote: >Ok... Now I understand what you see are problems. I agree to some, while >others I'm not sure of. That's fine. Disagreement is always OK; it's attempting to silence dissent that's bad. > Anyhow. Doesn't matter. After that you continued to >defend yourself from the others on the list. Personally, I couldn't care less >about how well you defend from attacks. There was more to it than just "defense." There's a lot of philosophy in there, as well as a healthy dose of pragmatism and reality. >The only valued point was that you though BSD wasn't yet a good enough product >to compete with Linux. Actually, I did NOT say that. (FreeBSD has some technical deficiencies, but IMHO Linux has at least as many.) What I said -- and the distinction is important -- is that FreeBSD is lacking in good memes, which are more important than good code. > Now I ask, how can I, as the user help out in the >cause. You threw out names, and problems, but still haven't even hinted at the >solution of which so far you claim to know and have investors to fix. I did more than hint: I stated explicitly that what's needed is a distribution that's memetically fit. So, I'm putting out a call for generalists: like-minded people who feel comfortable with a foot in both the technical and social/marketing worlds. And, hopefully, who know at least something about memetics and why its concepts are key to an operating system's success. If I get the funding, I'll be able to hire at least some folks as consultants and perhaps a few full-timers. We then go into a huddle and flesh out our plan -- which will be based on the principles I've outlined but will assume its final shape as we learn what works best. >This is the only thing I'm interested in. I suggest you put your efforts into >explaining whats in that basket rather than everyone elses. Here's what's in the basket: A faster-growing user base, jobs, recognition, and fun for developers, a greater feeling of community, and a way to beat back the destructiveness of the GPL. We get there by looking at FreeBSD's problems from the perspective I've already laid out, creating the new distribution (which will share much with the existing ones but add unique value), and starting the evangelism process. What I need, right now, is for like-minded people to e-mail me privately about playing specific roles on the team. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 9: 6:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B44014CCB for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15200; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:04:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908093313.05258c10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:03:23 -0600 To: Jamie Bowden , Dominic Mitchell From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: MS & Linux duopoly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990908102618.A68257@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:30 AM 9/8/99 -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: >I didn't bother to hit the URL, but this isn't news. Things like X11amp >and Cthugha are prime examples. Those are fluff. The non-fluff stuff >that's becoming linux specific is pissing me off. It shouldn't be surprising, though. It's ALWAYS easier to write non-portable code. It happens in the commercial world unless management is visionary enough to insist that programmers do otherwise. (Unfortunately, management is rarely visionary.) And it happens in the open source world, where coders who seek credit rather than money likewise target the biggest installed base exclusively. Mechanisms like the GPL work to lock the code in still more. I see this as a problem that will worsen over time. The only cure is to catch up with Linux in terms of mindshare and user base as quickly as possible. Are you game to an effort whose goal would be to turn these trends around? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 9:29:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6EF014E3A for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:29:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15524; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:28:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908102538.00a2b100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:26:32 -0600 To: Jamie Bowden , Dominic Mitchell From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: MS & Linux duopoly -- correction Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Are you game to an effort" s/b "Are you game to participate in an effort" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 9:29:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD1214E3A for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15521; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:28:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908100529.05259560@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:24:56 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Market share and platform support Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908114806.04124@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990907234944.047c0980@localhost> <12874.936232439@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990907234944.047c0980@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:48 AM 9/8/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > The manufacturers of all of the above > > products say that, due to the gap, they have no plans to provide > > native FreeBSD ports. And what about such mainstays as TurboTax? > > For Linux, one day, maybe. For FreeBSD? Not unless it catches up. > > They DON'T say due to the "gap"! They say, "when we have > significant user base", that is "when we have x million". > > We're talking ABSOLUTE numbers, with a sizeable possible > income, not relative market share! > > Please, find me ONE example of a vendor who's given "relative market > share" as the excuse for not porting their product. O'Reilly has turned down several book proposals on BSD UNIX -- from me and from other authors -- saying that Linux has so much more market share that it offers them a greater return. Cygnus says that market share is the reason they won't port tools like Code Fusion (they do support Solaris, Windows, and NT, so it's not a GPL thing). Ditto Corel with WordPerfect Office. And the list goes on and on. The reason why market share, rather than absolute numbers, determines platform support has to do with the way virtually ALL software vendors make such decisions. (The methodology is remarkably uniform throughout the industry.) The marketing people create a list of candidate platforms and order it according to market share. The developers pick the top one or two platforms on the list and start coding; more platforms are added as resources allow. Alas, there is always a "cut line" below which the vendor will not go. This is due to the very real problem that that maintaining too many ports, or supporting too many platforms, will tax the company's development and support resources. The makers of the commercial version of TripWire, for example, told me candidly that FreeBSD was so far down that they did not believe they would ever support it. Period. They were doing NT and Linux, then considering whether to do Solaris or some other commercial UNIX next. So, you see, relative market share DOES matter. FreeBSD must get up there on the charts, or the ports will not come. And, as mentioned in another thread on this list, even open source programs will become Linux-specific. It's happening now. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 11:49:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3996B150C5 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:49:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:47:44 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Phil Regnauld" , "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD market share statistics Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:47:44 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01befa2a$a2d34dc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <19990908114806.04124@ns.int.ftf.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The manufacturers of all of the above > > products say that, due to the gap, they have no plans to provide > > native FreeBSD ports. And what about such mainstays as TurboTax? > > For Linux, one day, maybe. For FreeBSD? Not unless it catches up. > > They DON'T say due to the "gap"! They say, "when we have > significant user base", that is "when we have x million". > > We're talking ABSOLUTE numbers, with a sizeable possible > income, not relative market share! > > Please, find me ONE example of a vendor who's given "relative market > share" as the excuse for not porting their product. I think that the number 'X' is a number that is increasing regularly. At any one point, there is some absolute number, but over time that number increases. It takes a certain amount of effort to make a native FreeBSD build. The potential revenue from that effort is weighed against the potential revenue of everything else that could be done with that same amount of effort. The software industry is a very strange one. In pretty much every other industry, the question is "will I make more money on this thing than it costs me to make it?" However, due to the shortage of talented programmers, in this industry the question is more often, "is this the most effective usage of my limited programming resources?". This is a question that relies completely on relative numbers. FreeBSD's market is considered relative to every other market. Not in absolute dollars. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 11:49:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B91E156C2 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA90186; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:45:48 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:45:48 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: Rod Taylor , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for the actual proposal... Message-ID: <19990908194548.A89429@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> <99090807163506.00470@a11.idiotswitch.org> <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 09:32:27AM -0600 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, I think this is where the problem is: On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 09:32:27AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > is that FreeBSD is lacking in good memes, which are more important than good > code. On a very fundamental level, I think a lot of the FreeBSD developers (note, not necessarily the users) disagree very strongly with that statement. I doubt that you can change their minds. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 11:56:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F5A15710 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01399; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:54:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Rod Taylor , mmeola@uswest.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My proposals for the future [Long] In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > 5. An "elitist" attitude which discourages even very talented > potential contributors to the code base; Ok, I can't claim to be even moderately talented but having transitioned from a 'potential contributor' to an 'actual contributor' to a 'somewhat active committer' over the period of about 2 months my perception of the FreeBSD project is in direct opposition of this statement. I've been encouraged and given help and guidance every step of the way. Some has been 'this is the wrong way to do X.' stated very bluntly, that, from an overly sensitive point of view could be taken as 'discouraging' but isn't intended to be. I believe this to be an artifact of mentors not having the spare cycles to handhold and baby new committers. I don't see this as bad. > 6. A shortage of contributors to handle known problems in the code > base (due to items 1 and 5 above); and The rate of growth of the committer base is in line with the projects ability to properly assimilate the new members. There will always be a shortage of contributors. I see a large part of your complaints as simple hand-waving. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 12:21:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D556515695 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:21:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA20403 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:21:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:21:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: users group in/near Amherst, Massachusetts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've recently started spending a fair amount of time (2/3 of my time, approx) in central Massachusetts working from a home office, and was wondering if there were any FreeBSD-interested groups in that area? Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 13:48:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297C814C1C for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:48:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from fieldeng (fieldeng.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:46:34 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990908164723.02b85030@cstone.net> X-Sender: highway@cstone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:47:23 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: InstallFest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey yo, The Charlottesville Unix Users Group (CHUUG) will be sponsoring an InstallFest of various Freenixes, including FreeBSD (my favorite) on September 25th at the Omni Hotel in Charlottesville, VA. More information - including the signup form - is available at www.chuug.org. I figured I'd post here and let y'all know. If there any FreeBSD fanatics - or just users - in C-ville that didn't know about CHUUG, you're more then welcome - we don't have dues, membership rosters, or the such, but you get a free t-shirt if you volunteer at the InstallFest. Thanks! SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - Cornerstone Networks Engineering - highway@cstone.net Report received spam to: spam-report@cstone.net with the full headers Cornerstone Networks - 804.817.7000 or 800.325.9848 - http://www.cstone.net I'm a good person. It's the Internet's fault! - http://www.sluggy.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 13:59:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE53014C32 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:59:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id WAA01797; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:57:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id XAA95123; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:01:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990908230127.08940@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:01:27 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: Rod Taylor , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for the actual proposal... References: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> <99090807163506.00470@a11.idiotswitch.org> <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 09:32:27AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > >defend yourself from the others on the list. Personally, I couldn't care less > >about how well you defend from attacks. > > There was more to it than just "defense." There's a lot of philosophy in > there, as well as a healthy dose of pragmatism and reality. Oh well, then, if you already know your qualities, I guess it's fair we spend so much time shooting you down on your lesser talents. > What I need, right now, is for like-minded people to e-mail me privately about > playing specific roles on the team. Why privately ? What's the problem about open discussion, suddenly ? -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 14:11:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1402115101 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:11:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19082; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:10:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908150208.048387d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 15:08:48 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Looking for the actual proposal... Cc: Rod Taylor , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908230127.08940@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> <99090807163506.00470@a11.idiotswitch.org> <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:01 PM 9/8/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: >> What I need, right now, is for like-minded people to e-mail me privately about > > playing specific roles on the team. > > Why privately ? What's the problem about open discussion, suddenly ? a) Because the team will formulate and reformulate the strategy over time; and b) Because this will be a for-profit venture, with investors. They will not want the entire strategy revealed in advance, as there will be competitors. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 14:12:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D946A15101 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id XAA01887; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:10:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id XAA95203; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:13:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990908231358.49363@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:13:58 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD market share statistics References: <19990908114806.04124@ns.int.ftf.net> <000e01befa2a$a2d34dc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <000e01befa2a$a2d34dc0$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 11:47:44AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz writes: > > The software industry is a very strange one. In pretty much every other > industry, the question is "will I make more money on this thing than it > costs me to make it?" However, due to the shortage of talented programmers, > in this industry the question is more often, "is this the most effective > usage of my limited programming resources?". > > This is a question that relies completely on relative numbers. FreeBSD's > market is considered relative to every other market. Not in absolute > dollars. Hmmm maybe. I agree about "scarce programming resources", but still, that isn't the case of every software company, no ? (programmer vs. potential income considered) Of course the "leader" OS will carry the product -- just as we're seeing products disappear in the UNIX world and reappear NT-only. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 14:28:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AB3150E8 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.198.213]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2CB3; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:27:53 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA65024; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:18:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:18:46 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MS & Linux duopoly Message-ID: <19990908231846.H64229@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990908102618.A68257@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <19990908102618.A68257@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dominic Mitchell (Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) [990908 13:14]: >I know Theo isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he does have a point here. >There's too much linux specific code out there. > >http://www.idg.net/idg_frames/english/content.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.idg.com.au%2FCWT1997.nsf%2FHome%2Bpage%2F83CB1A288A3B3EB54A2567E5001FEF41%3FOpenDocument&return=%2fidg_frames%2fenglish%2ffeatures%2ehtml This is known for a while now. Miguel de Icaza (the gnome lamer^H^H^H^H^H guy) even admitted to write non-portable code just to favour and push Linux. This is EXACTLY NOT the mentatilty the coders on BSD have. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best The greatest of faults, I should say, is to be conscious of none. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 14:28:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7998B15673 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:28:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.198.213]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB2CB3; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:27:54 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA65038; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:26:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:26:10 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD market share statistics Message-ID: <19990908232610.I64229@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <12874.936232439@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990907234944.047c0980@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990907234944.047c0980@localhost> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snip] You still have failed to produce valid statistics but vague quoting of shakespeare [how much I love his works] and not come up with any concrete numbers... Losing credibility time and again Brett, try to stick on topic for a chance and directly answer the question with things that bear relevance instead of wandering off into, what you call, meta-discussion. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Necessity is the mother of invention. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 14:28:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DAA1528D; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:28:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.198.213]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAC2CB3; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:27:54 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA65020; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:16:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:16:29 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Nik Clayton Cc: Brett Glass , Rod Taylor , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for the actual proposal... Message-ID: <19990908231629.G64229@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> <99090807163506.00470@a11.idiotswitch.org> <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> <19990908194548.A89429@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <19990908194548.A89429@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Nik Clayton (nik@freebsd.org) [990908 21:04]: >Brett, > >I think this is where the problem is: > >On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 09:32:27AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> is that FreeBSD is lacking in good memes, which are more important than good >> code. > >On a very fundamental level, I think a lot of the FreeBSD developers (note, >not necessarily the users) disagree very strongly with that statement. I >doubt that you can change their minds. Even the suggestion that _they_ should amend their ways in favor of marketing brings us closer to the point which is yon average microsoft like shoppe. And that's one thing about 98% of the developers around the lists loathe. Users may be fun, we appeal to them of course, but let's not forget the developers do the actual work which makes users want the OS. Changing or otherwise impending the developers leads to the obvious... -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best There is such a thing as a man being too proud to fight. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 14:34:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51F014BDE for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:33:46 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Phil Regnauld" Cc: "Brett Glass" , Subject: RE: FreeBSD market share statistics Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:33:46 -0700 Message-ID: <000101befa41$d50f23b0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <19990908231358.49363@ns.int.ftf.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hmmm maybe. I agree about "scarce programming resources", > but still, > that isn't the case of every software company, no ? > (programmer vs. potential income considered) > > Of course the "leader" OS will carry the product -- just as we're > seeing products disappear in the UNIX world and reappear NT-only. It also depends upon how much work is necessary to make and maintain a FreeBSD build. Something very close to the OS that requires heavy skill to port, like a development suite or debugger, is almost always going to be considered in relative numbers (is this the best use of my very limited resources). A purer application that requires less effort to port (or effort by less highly-skilled programmers) may get more consideration in absolute numbers (will this sell and make money). As long as FreeBSD supports everything important that the product needs, most UNIX applications can be ported in less than a week. Of course, this also means that when a new release of the product comes out, a new build has to be made and packaged. So there are some ongoing costs to adding a platform. But I think Brett is right that if the FreeBSD world wants native applications, the best way to get it to do everything possible to increase market share. Now if only I knew how to do that, ... I've also noticed that now that FreeBSD supports 'poll', 'nanosleep' and so on, it's become much easier to port code to it. These kinds of efforts will also result in more native applications, IMO. For example, the only build differences between the Linux and FreeBSD versions of ConferenceRoom is a quirk about the way time zone names are stored, different pthread stack options, and something about the 'strsep' function. That is it for an application that's over 180,000 lines of code. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 15:21: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE4B15230 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:20:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: by super-g.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0AE22B416; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CDD15B414; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:20:36 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? In-Reply-To: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Personally, I think the output of df is a sick joke: spork@frothy[~]$ df / (/dev/dsk/c0t3d0s0 ): 67198 blocks 28272 files /usr (/dev/dsk/c0t3d0s6 ): 2594604 blocks 446463 files I mean, what the hell?? How full is it? Or am I just supposed to be optimistic... Charles On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Alfred Perlstein writes: > > > > Of course, one of the most popular releases of SysV is Slowaris... > > > > I think tli and streams pretty much sums it up, oh and init levels... > > During the Usenix "TCP/IP network programming" tutorial , Richard Stevens (RIP...), > was quick to point out that since Solaris 2.6, they have reimplemented > native sockets without using streams :-) > > Performance was too pathetic :-) > > Other annoyances: > > /etc/rc.d (so far, I can describe it as: "theoretically cool, practically > useless" -- noone almost ever uses that junk). > > /etc/inittab > > etc.. > > > > -- > Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 15:33: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt014nb6.san.rr.com (dt014nb6.san.rr.com [24.30.129.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA6A156F5 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt014nb6.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA40597; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:31:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:31:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt014nb6.san.rr.com To: Phil Regnauld Cc: David Schwartz , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD market share statistics In-Reply-To: <19990908231358.49363@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > David Schwartz writes: > > > > The software industry is a very strange one. In pretty much every other > > industry, the question is "will I make more money on this thing than it > > costs me to make it?" However, due to the shortage of talented programmers, > > in this industry the question is more often, "is this the most effective > > usage of my limited programming resources?". > > > > This is a question that relies completely on relative numbers. FreeBSD's > > market is considered relative to every other market. Not in absolute > > dollars. > > Hmmm maybe. I agree about "scarce programming resources", but still, > that isn't the case of every software company, no ? > (programmer vs. potential income considered) It is always the case in any software company that plans to stay afloat. I could give you a detailed narration about this inre the old Word Perfect Corp. and the fiasco with the "OS/2" version of their product, but suffice it to say that lack of talented programmers multiplied by a rapidly expanding number of platforms (where rapid is a relative term) means that every software company has to make hard choices about what platforms to support. Doug -- "My mama told me, my mama said, 'don't cry.' She said, 'you're too young a man to have as many women you got.' I looked at my mother dear and didn't even crack a smile. I said, 'If women kill me, I don't mind dyin!'" - John Belushi as "Joliet" Jake Blues, "I Don't Know" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 15:51:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D651573B for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA46178; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:49:29 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:49:29 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Steve Rubin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Richard Stevens Message-ID: <19990908164929.A45996@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <19990904123326.A16716@tch.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <19990904123326.A16716@tch.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 12:33:26PM -0700, Steve Rubin wrote: > I apologize if this was discussed elsewhere.. > > STEVENS, W. Richard, noted author of computer books died on > September 1. How did he died? Can we send compliments online? -- For PGP Public Key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 15:53:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0475615838 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:53:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA46233; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:52:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:52:45 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Steve Rubin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Richard Stevens Message-ID: <19990908165245.B45996@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <19990904123326.A16716@tch.org> <19990908164929.A45996@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <19990908164929.A45996@fisicc-ufm.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 04:49:29PM -0600, Oscar Bonilla wrote: > On Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 12:33:26PM -0700, Steve Rubin wrote: > > I apologize if this was discussed elsewhere.. > > > > STEVENS, W. Richard, noted author of computer books died on > > September 1. > > How did he died? Can we send compliments online? > I meant condolences... sorry, it was the shock that I knew him... -- For PGP Public Key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 16:51: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B88E1519F for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:50:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA17012; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:50:05 -0700 Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdG0L6Ua; Wed Sep 8 16:50:02 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA03644; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:49:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909082349.QAA03644@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause To: walton@nordicrecords.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:49:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908044028.19574.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> from "Dave Walton" at Sep 7, 99 09:38:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 8 Sep 99, at 0:19, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The "Claim Credit" clause, sometimes wrongly called > > the advertising caluse by people who don't understand that it does > > not invoke unless you try to claim credit for the code, > > I don't understand. I don't see anything conditional about clause 3. > How is it that it only applies when you try to claim credit? OK. Here's my pat answer for this question, using /usr/include/stdio.h as my example: * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software * must display the following acknowledgement: * This product includes software developed by the University of * California, Berkeley and its contributors. So, here are the questions you need to ask yourself: 1) Do your advertising materials say: "Uses the fantastic fileno(3) routine!" ? 2) Do your advertising materials say: "Now, with industry standard 'stdio.h'!" ? If the answer to both of these questions is "No", then the answer to the question "Do I have to print the acknowledgement in my advertising materials?" is also (a profound) "No". > > It makes it possible to license unmodified BSD4.4-Lite2 derived > > code under GPL (assuming it's not a hoax). > > Ok, now I'm completely confused. How is it possible for someone > other than the copyright holder to take unmodified copyrighted > code and release it under a different license?? Under a legal theory that has not been tested in an apellate level court (the only type of court that can create binding case law in the U.S.), it's not possible for anyone other than the copyright holder to relicense the work in its entirety. Under the same (untested) legal theory, by extension, it is not possible to change the license on a derivate work. Under the same (untested) legal theory, by extension, it is not possible to change the agregate license on an agregate derivate work. I'd be happy for you to find case law proving this theory (it was documented extensively in the slashdot discussion, by an intellectual property lawyer), but intil you do, I'm going to have to act as if it's still a theory. Whis is kind of serendipitous, what with it actually still being a legal theory, and all. 8-). The current common law in this regard allows the relicense, due to the fact that we are treating software as if it were physical property. This allows us to apply the docterine of "adverse use" in order to establish what is called a "prescrptive lien" on the "property". This means that the Berkeley DB code that SleepyCat has created a derivitive work of, and released under a different license, is legal, at this time. The same for the Berkeley Sendmail code, which Sendmail.com has taken proprietary for non-source software distributions: it's legal, _at this time_, despite the fact that it is derivative of a work whose authorship rights were never fully granted under other than the 4 clause license (unlike the UCB CSRG contributors, who assigned rights to the university). Anyway, anything other than "status quo" is hand waving until you get it to an apellate court, so good luck getting it to an apellate court. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:16: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4493156D0 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:15:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04926; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Phil Regnauld , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:24:56 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990908100529.05259560@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:13:56 -0700 Message-ID: <4922.936836036@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > O'Reilly has turned down several book proposals on BSD UNIX -- from me and > from other authors -- saying that Linux has so much more market share that it Perhaps they just didn't like you. They asked me to do a book and I turned them down due to too many committments elsewhere. They've also published 2 FreeBSD books in Japanese - I saw them the last time I was in Tokyo. > So, you see, relative market share DOES matter. FreeBSD must get up there on > the charts, or the ports will not come. And, as mentioned in another thread We are getting up on the charts and the ports are coming. I've counted at least 3 new products in the last 2 months - we have the XNI network monitoring software (which will be demo'd at the upcoming BAFUG meeting), we have the Polyserve load balancing package (adding FreeBSD to its Solaris and Linux product line before NT even) and we have C-Forge (see recent press). The "buy-in" I'm also getting at trade-shows and other vendor-populated events more recently is also very heartening. Just 3 years ago, the responses I got to inquiries ranged from "what's FreeBSD?" to "we already support Linux" ("um, we're not a linux") and many vendors at COMDEX were just basically clueless about our very existence. Now, many trade-shows and press articles later, I'm getting outright statements of "I'm *really glad* you came to talk to us, let me introduce you to our CTO!" and "FreeBSD? Yes, we have a port for that already in progress. Let me give you my card" from some of those very same vendors. That may not seem on-par with the "My god, you're Linus Torvalds! Can I touch your sleeve?" sorts of receptions you'd probably insist upon before acknowledging any tangible signs of progress, but it's definitely progress in my book. In any case, we've expended many bytes in this mailing list in discussing the topic and frankly it's starting to become only tiring, not enlightening or motivating. Discussions which serve only to tire one out are not useful discussions in my book and nothing you're ever going to say will change my mind on THAT particular point, so you might as well save your fingers too. Rather than continue discuss the "memes of advocacy" and other mere conceptualizations of progress in all the areas you say we lack it, it's my personal choice to keep "feeding the PR machine" by visiting trade shows, speaking before audiences and press weasels of various shapes and colors, and doing the whole road tour thing in general since that seems like the most tangible way to make progress. Anyone else who's interested in doing rather than just talking about doing is also more than welcome to join me at such events, just as many people currently do. Such folks are a major help in tackling press weasels, pressuring vendors for support and otherwise doing *exactly* what the many legions of Linux folks do in whipping up support for their OS of choice and I really appreciate their participation. All this talk of dominant memes and subverting the current paradigm is mere fiddle-faddle when it comes right down to it becuase it's the front-liners who do the work and the front liners who I respect. If I start seeing Brett Glass more on the front lines and not just working for unspecified "clients" on not-very-visible advocacy efforts then, and only then, will I start to trust that he can walk the walk in addition to talking the talk and we can perhaps even begin to have constructive discussions here and investigate potential areas of cooperation. That day is still yet to arrive, however, and further un-constructive discussions during the interval are therefore just a waste of time and energy. I'll waste no more of either until Brett changes his current classification on the FreeBSD user taxonomy chart. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:27:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78AAD14D4B for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19079; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:26:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAN4aGmL; Wed Sep 8 17:26:15 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA06872; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:26:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909090026.RAA06872@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:26:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk, des@flood.ping.uio.no, regnauld@ftf.net, bright@wintelcom.net, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, kehlet@techfuel.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Sep 8, 99 12:02:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Dominic Mitchell writes: > > Well, I don't know about IRIX, but I have definite problems with the > > Solaris implementation. For instance, because of the way that sun ship > > it, you can't "just turn off inetd". Half of the scrips don't have a > > stop section. In short, nice idea, but a pain to work with. > > Don't blame the design for the shortcomings of the implementation... > especially when those shortcomings would take 10 minutes to fix if the > vendor bothered to fix them. > > An enormous advantage of the /etc/rc.d system (at least as implemented > in IRIX) is that it makes it trivial to implement a checkbox-list- > style UI for enabling / disabling services. Shouldn't be too hard to > add dependency information either, so it prevents you from disabling > services that are required by other (still enabled) services. Yeah, as in "man tsort". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:35:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373BB151A9 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:35:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA16630; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:34:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAANqaOBG; Wed Sep 8 17:34:40 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07108; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:35:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909090035.RAA07108@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: MS & Linux duopoly To: ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:35:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jamie Bowden" at Sep 8, 99 08:30:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > :I know Theo isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he does have a point here. > :There's too much linux specific code out there. > : > :http://www.idg.net/idg_frames/english/content.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.idg.com.au%2FCWT1997.nsf%2FHome%2Bpage%2F83CB1A288A3B3EB54A2567E5001FEF41%3FOpenDocument&return=%2fidg_frames%2fenglish%2ffeatures%2ehtml > > I didn't bother to hit the URL, but this isn't news. Things like X11amp > and Cthugha are prime examples. Those are fluff. The non-fluff stuff > that's becoming linux specific is pissing me off. It reminds me alot of > when I had to take lots of freeware code written on SunOS and port it to > Irix. What a nightmare. > > Jamie Bowden > > -- > > If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. > -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) How apropos, given your signature. 8-) 8-). Perhaps we can replace "boggle" with "WordPerfect", and tie it to Linux a little more, and see what we get? "If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But commercial software can all go to Linux." -"Anonymous" (on advocacy in support of native commercial products) ...just to stir the pot, a bit... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:38: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E15B15C6B for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:37:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA02099 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:33:36 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:33:35 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: GM Fragmented / Auto Dodecopoly Bad For Users Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org GM released yet another version of "Automobile(tm)" today causing pundits to proclaim that fragmentation of the Automobile(tm) Transportation System (TS) would lead to a decline in the GM user base. GM was quick to reply that they weren't fragmented and that the line of TSes all had the same engine. Not good enough GM! Ford and Chrysler couldn't fool us with that line and neither can GM. In other news, the Dodecopoly of TS makers continues to destroy the market for TSes. "We users have to choose from only twelve different TSes. It's terrible." Another pundit states, "This hegemony of the 'Big Twelve' has to be stopped or the thirteenth TS on the market will fade into obscurity!" These arguments are absurd. I have been reading Brett Glass rant here for a year. Just like the rumors of Apple's demise, Brett's dire warnings are getting pretty tiresome. Look... who really gives a hoot what the other guy is doing. FreeBSD is a better product in its own segment than any other product in the world. But what I really mean to say is, "Brett, Go piss up a rope!" Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:40:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C1C157EB for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:40:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-22.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.22]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA05864; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:40:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27381; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:58:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199909082358.SAA27381@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Daniel O'Connor" , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly In-reply-to: Message from Amancio Hasty of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 01:36:43 PDT." <199909080836.BAA19465@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:58:08 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty writes: > > I am sorry the book on page 12 does state that the price is $69.95 and > I am totally shock that the actual price of the CD is a low $39.95 8) "The CD" isn't $39.95, FOUR CD's in a bundle is $39.95. Unless one subscribes then its $24.95. Plus $5 shipping either way. Recently it has been reported CompUSA has a 6-CD (or was it a 10-CD?) bundle of FreeBSD for $49.95, some have reported their CompUSA listing $39.95. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:44:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (216-200-29-190.snj0.flashcom.net [216.200.29.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653D814BFA for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:44:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA39418; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199909090040.RAA39418@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: David Kelly Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Daniel O'Connor" , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apache The Definite Guide -- Publisher OReilly In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:58:08 CDT." <199909082358.SAA27381@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:40:33 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay, I know what the price is and I was quoting the book. Thinking a little bit more it seem like a nice *new* price for the FreeBSD CD. Cheers -- Amancio Hasty hasty@rah.star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:50:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C9114BFA; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:50:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16623; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:49:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd016596; Wed Sep 8 17:49:40 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07586; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:49:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909090049.RAA07586@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Looking for the actual proposal... To: nik@FreeBSD.ORG (Nik Clayton) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:49:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, dark@idiotswitch.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908194548.A89429@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> from "Nik Clayton" at Sep 8, 99 07:45:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Brett, > > I think this is where the problem is: > > On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 09:32:27AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > is that FreeBSD is lacking in good memes, which are more important than good > > code. > > On a very fundamental level, I think a lot of the FreeBSD developers (note, > not necessarily the users) disagree very strongly with that statement. I > doubt that you can change their minds. I believe Brett means "more important to achieving market share", not "more important in the sense of a universal epistimological scale of importance common to all measurements of importance". Coders are, by their nature, very Aristotilian (and therefore Boolean) in their logic. So I can see why you would think developers would disagree with Brett. But you also have to realize that not all goals are, by definition, mutually exclusive. Brett's goal of increased market share does not have to come at the expense of someone else's goal of "ultimate code quality": this is not a zero sum game, with proponents of market share on one side, and proponents of good code on the other. I realize that many people are of the opinion that Microsoft has ingrained the idea that market share must always come at the expense of quality, but this is a false dichotomy. Although the idea that short term profit must come at the expense of quality is not so hard to dismiss... one could easily see why people could make an erroneous connection between "short term profit" and "increased short term market share". I don't think Brett is interested in increased market share for FreeBSD, if there is a trade between the short term and the long term in order to get it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:53: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14F814DC0 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13077; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:52:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd013060; Wed Sep 8 17:52:33 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07672; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:52:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909090052.RAA07672@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Looking for the actual proposal... To: regnauld@ftf.net (Phil Regnauld) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:52:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, dark@idiotswitch.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908230127.08940@ns.int.ftf.net> from "Phil Regnauld" at Sep 8, 99 11:01:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What I need, right now, is for like-minded people to e-mail me > > privately about playing specific roles on the team. > > Why privately ? What's the problem about open discussion, suddenly ? At a guess? "Detractors throwing rocks are definitionally not like-minded". 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:55:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172A915E0F for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-22.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.22]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA01796; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:54:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27856; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:54:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199909090054.TAA27856@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: spork Cc: Phil Regnauld , Alfred Perlstein , Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? In-reply-to: Message from spork of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:20:36 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 19:54:30 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org spork writes: > Personally, I think the output of df is a sick joke: > > spork@frothy[~]$ df > / (/dev/dsk/c0t3d0s0 ): 67198 blocks 28272 files > /usr (/dev/dsk/c0t3d0s6 ): 2594604 blocks 446463 files > > I mean, what the hell?? How full is it? Or am I just supposed to be > optimistic... I don't have access to a Solaris system anymore, but "df -k" used to produce a BSD-like output when plain "df" produced the above sillyness. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 17:56:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBF914DC0 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26946; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:55:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzvaqL0; Wed Sep 8 17:55:54 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07813; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:56:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909090056.RAA07813@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: MS & Linux duopoly To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:56:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908231846.H64229@daemon.ninth-circle.org> from "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" at Sep 8, 99 11:18:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is known for a while now. > > Miguel de Icaza (the gnome lamer^H^H^H^H^H guy) even admitted to write > non-portable code just to favour and push Linux. > > This is EXACTLY NOT the mentatilty the coders on BSD have. Amancio Hasty has been riding herd on a number of projects where such incompatability "fixes" are very common. One response to this is to ensure that -ports patch files get integrated (not just emailed or contributed) back to the project maintainers. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 19: 2: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id C160214CA8; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:02:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jreynold@primenet.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <14293.64545.519883.946383@localhost.primenet.com> (message from John and Jennifer Reynolds on Tue, 7 Sep 1999 23:03:13 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: test message Message-Id: <19990909020205.C160214CA8@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I needed an address to test sendmail with ... there didn't appear to be a > freebsd-test@freebsd.org so, I just used chat ... forgive! BAD! no cookie! use test@freebsd.org or freebsd-test@freebsd.org. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 19: 9:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 3B2B014D42; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:09:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: regnauld@ftf.net Cc: bright@wintelcom.net, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, kehlet@techfuel.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> (message from Phil Regnauld on Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:02:07 +0200) Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? Message-Id: <19990909020944.3B2B014D42@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > /etc/inittab > > etc.. printing system from hell. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 19:49:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD43150B2 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:49:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-78-40-157.ath.bellsouth.net [216.78.40.157]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17545; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA01836; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:52:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> To: Brett Glass Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Catching up In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:12:00 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:52:54 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I think it's high time you put your > >money where your mouth is. Go away. We're not interested. > I note that you use the royal "we" here. Are you royalty? "We" means at least DES and myself. -- Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 19:55:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 62D0A151EC for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:55:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from walton@nordicrecords.com) Received: (qmail 23753 invoked by alias); 9 Sep 1999 02:54:43 -0000 Message-ID: <19990909025443.23751.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 23739 invoked from network); 9 Sep 1999 02:54:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 9 Sep 1999 02:54:43 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:52:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Reply-To: walton@nordicrecords.com In-reply-to: <199909082349.QAA03644@usr01.primenet.com> References: <19990908044028.19574.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> from "Dave Walton" at Sep 7, 99 09:38:10 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Sep 99, at 23:49, Terry Lambert wrote: > > On 8 Sep 99, at 0:19, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > The "Claim Credit" clause, sometimes wrongly called > > > the advertising caluse by people who don't understand that it does > > > not invoke unless you try to claim credit for the code, > > > > I don't understand. I don't see anything conditional about clause 3. > > How is it that it only applies when you try to claim credit? > > OK. Here's my pat answer for this question, using /usr/include/stdio.h > as my example: > > 1) Do your advertising materials say: > "Uses the fantastic fileno(3) routine!" > > 2) Do your advertising materials say: > "Now, with industry standard 'stdio.h'!" > > If the answer to both of these questions is "No", then the answer > to the question "Do I have to print the acknowledgement in my > advertising materials?" is also (a profound) "No". Ah, ok. Now I get it. (Thanks also to DES). I'd still call it an advertising clause, though. If you say "Now, with industry standard 'stdio.h'!", you aren't claiming credit for it so much as advertising its presence. But I suppose it's all semantics. > I'd be happy for you to find case law proving this theory (it was > documented extensively in the slashdot discussion, by an intellectual > property lawyer), There's a rarity... A licensing discussion on slashdot that I actually want to read. Got a pointer? > but intil you do, I'm going to have to act as if > it's still a theory. Whis is kind of serendipitous, what with it > actually still being a legal theory, and all. 8-). Quite. :) I guess my confusion was in thinking it was more than theory. > The current common law in this regard allows the relicense, due > to the fact that we are treating software as if it were physical > property. This allows us to apply the docterine of "adverse use" > in order to establish what is called a "prescrptive lien" on the > "property". I'll just nod politely and pretend I understood that. :) Your examples of SleepyCat and Sendmail don't seem to quite fit the question. They are derivitive work, not unmodified code. But I'll take your word for it. > Anyway, anything other than "status quo" is hand waving until you > get it to an apellate court, so good luck getting it to an apellate > court. No thanks. That's up to someone with money. Thanks, Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton Webmaster, Postmaster Nordic Entertainment Worldwide walton@nordicdms.com http://www.nordicdms.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 20:14: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.atl.bellsouth.net (mail3.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0C614D85 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-78-40-157.ath.bellsouth.net [216.78.40.157]) by mail3.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06254; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA02089; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:17:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199909090317.XAA02089@bellsouth.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai), Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: MS & Linux duopoly In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 00:56:20 -0000." <199909090056.RAA07813@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 23:17:52 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > One response to this is to ensure that -ports patch files get > integrated (not just emailed or contributed) back to the project > maintainers. AMEN! This is (in my mind at least) a fairly serious problem that needs addressing. Quite often, it doesn't happen simply because of limited resources, but we should all try harder to get FreeBSD recognized as a first-class player in other projects. Also, I believe this is even more true for things imported into /usr/src ... To be fair, a few committers *are* going the extra mile for these efforts (David Obrien probably deserves special recognition here). Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 20:17:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B06B1507F for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:16:53 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , , Subject: RE: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:16:53 -0700 Message-ID: <000001befa71$c3920e10$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <19990909025443.23751.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'll just nod politely and pretend I understood that. :) > Your examples of SleepyCat and Sendmail don't seem to quite fit > the question. They are derivitive work, not unmodified code. But I'll > take your word for it. > Legally, pretty much the only difference between a derivitave work and the original work is the person who did the deriviation might have rights to the derivative work. All you have to do is change every space to two spaces and you have made a derived work. The rights of the original copyright holder to the derived work are precisely the same as to the original work. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21: 0:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt014nb6.san.rr.com [24.30.129.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D4814A12 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:00:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA44548; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37D730DF.5042D758@gorean.org> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:00:31 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0904 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: spork , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? References: <199909090054.TAA27856@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > spork writes: > > Personally, I think the output of df is a sick joke: > > > > spork@frothy[~]$ df > > / (/dev/dsk/c0t3d0s0 ): 67198 blocks 28272 files > > /usr (/dev/dsk/c0t3d0s6 ): 2594604 blocks 446463 files > > > > I mean, what the hell?? How full is it? Or am I just supposed to be > > optimistic... > > I don't have access to a Solaris system anymore, but "df -k" used to > produce a BSD-like output when plain "df" produced the above sillyness. Still does. I have an entry that aliases this for sun machines in my .bashrc file. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21:11:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3802F14A12 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:11:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA24413 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:10:18 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Head count for September San Francisco BAFUG Message-ID: <19990908211018.A24376@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Please reply to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21:25:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE0A150C7 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:25:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02427; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:24:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908210530.04640c50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:12:51 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Phil Regnauld" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: FreeBSD market share statistics Cc: In-Reply-To: <000e01befa2a$a2d34dc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <19990908114806.04124@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:47 AM 9/8/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > It takes a certain amount of effort to make a native FreeBSD build. The >potential revenue from that effort is weighed against the potential revenue >of everything else that could be done with that same amount of effort. > > The software industry is a very strange one. In pretty much every other >industry, the question is "will I make more money on this thing than it >costs me to make it?" However, due to the shortage of talented programmers, >in this industry the question is more often, "is this the most effective >usage of my limited programming resources?". > > This is a question that relies completely on relative numbers. FreeBSD's >market is considered relative to every other market. Not in absolute >dollars. > > DS Absolutely correct. As long as talented programmers are rare and subject to burnout, and financial rewards tend to be reserved for managers rather than programmers, coders WILL be a scarce resource. There's also the matter of support. You need at least one support person ON EACH SHIFT to support a new platform; this typically means hiring and training more people. And then there's the problem of more SKUs. With limited shelf space, and the common practice of taxing unsold inventory, stores will only carry so much stock. If you publish your product for 5 platforms, CompUSA will sell the one or two most popular. FreeBSD isn't #1 or #2, so it's available "by special order" (read: slower than getting it via the Internet and more expensive, too). If at all. To really surmount these problems, an OS must climb to no less than the #3 or #4 spot; preferably higher. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21:25:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55234156C4 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:25:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02442; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:25:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908215326.04654930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:57:38 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: The value of marketing Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908231629.G64229@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990908194548.A89429@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> <99090807163506.00470@a11.idiotswitch.org> <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> <19990908194548.A89429@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:16 PM 9/8/99 +0200, you wrote: Users may be fun, we appeal to them of course, but let's not forget the >developers do the actual work which makes users want the OS. They do an important part of it. But, as I've mentioned in another thread, most people do not buy a car JUST for the engine. It matters how comfortable it is, how good it looks, how well it handles the terrain you need to negotiate, and if your family will fit. An OS isn't just code. It's a bundle of code, culture, conventions, third-party support, and -- yes -- memes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21:25:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85C7156C2 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:25:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02432; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:24:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908211304.046462a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:20:46 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Contributors, or lack thereof Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:54 PM 9/8/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > 5. An "elitist" attitude which discourages even very talented > > potential contributors to the code base; > >Ok, I can't claim to be even moderately talented but having transitioned >from a 'potential contributor' to an 'actual contributor' to a 'somewhat >active committer' over the period of about 2 months my perception of the >FreeBSD project is in direct opposition of this statement. Maybe that's because (a) You've tried to contribute code, not other things such as strategies for advocacy; and/or (b) you've contributed in areas where the person or persons who controlled that "turf" welcomed the input. The few times I've volunteered code, the person responsible for that area has acted insulted that I didn't think it was perfect already. > > 6. A shortage of contributors to handle known problems in the code > > base (due to items 1 and 5 above); and > >The rate of growth of the committer base is in line with the projects >ability to properly assimilate the new members. If so, then how come Jordan, and others, frequently post messages saying, "We're only human and we don't have enough help?" >There will always be a shortage of contributors. It could sure get a lot better. >I see a large part of your complaints as simple hand-waving. No, they're not hand-waving. They're based on consistent data from multiple, reliable sources. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21:25:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285881522B; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:25:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02421; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:24:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908195708.0463db80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:37:37 -0600 To: Nik Clayton From: Brett Glass Subject: Good memes vs. good code Cc: Rod Taylor , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908194548.A89429@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> <99090807163506.00470@a11.idiotswitch.org> <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:45 PM 9/8/99 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: >Brett, > >I think this is where the problem is: > >On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 09:32:27AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > is that FreeBSD is lacking in good memes, which are more important than good > > code. > >On a very fundamental level, I think a lot of the FreeBSD developers (note, >not necessarily the users) disagree very strongly with that statement. Actually, good memes ARE very important to the FreeBSD developers, because without them, all of that programming is for naught. I'm sure that each contributor has slightly different reasons for taking the time to contribute. However, the most common reasons, as expressed on the mailing lists and elsewhere, include: 1. You like doing good work, and take pride in a job well done; 2. You want others to benefit from using your code; 3. The availability of FreeBSD helps you to perform other tasks or makes your business more successful, so you have a vested interest in making it better; 4. You wish to (or already do) make money supporting or extending FreeBSD. As I mentioned in an earlier message, ALL of these goals are furthered by a larger user base, which in turn is brought about by good memes. More people will know of, appreciate, and benefit from your work. A more popular OS means more improvements and more third party applications, which in turn means a better and more useful OS for you yourself to use. If you make money doing FreeBSD work, you'll have more professional opportunities as well. Without good memes, though, none of these things are possible. Linux -- which does have hardy memes -- will dominate. The percentage of people who see and benefit from your work will shrink. You'll have fewer consulting opportunities (I used to do some OS/2 consulting, and watched my peers who specialized entirely in OS/2 suffer terribly careerwise when it tanked). And you'll likely be buying Linux applications and hoping that they run on your system, where they're unsupported if something goes wrong. Programmers, naturally, put an emphasis on good code and understand its benefits. But an OS is more than just some lines of code; it's a PLATFORM. An environment. With conventions (which are more consistent in BSD than in SysV or Linux; that's one reason why I'm partial to BSD), a user community, a halo of third party developers, and more. To focus only on the code is sort of like caring only about a car's engine and ignoring whether the windshield is cracked, whether the horn and headlights work, whether you can sit on a seat without a loose, rusty spring tearing a hole in your trousers. I'm a competent techie; my specialty is hand-coded assembly language. (This is why you don't see any of my code in FreeBSD, by the way. Contributions to FreeBSD pretty much have to be in C, a language I detest and write only when I must.) But I'm also a writer, an artist, a musician, a businessperson (I manage rental properties, among other things), and an inventor. In short, I'm a generalist, and like to step back and see the "big picture" rather than focusing on just one specialized area. So, you're right -- I may have a perspective that a developer who cares ONLY about code will not have. The people who have argued with me the longest and the loudest on this list have been those who are very code-centric. For example, Jordan Hubbard wrote, in a recent message: >All this talk of dominant memes and subverting the >current paradigm is mere fiddle-faddle when it comes right down to it >becuase it's the front-liners who do the work and the front liners who >I respect. By "front liners," of course, he means the coders. But the development of good memes is actually more important, as is shown by the success of Linux. Development of the memes is, of course, done behind the front lines, while spreading them requires going out and talking to PEOPLE -- not coding. And spending a lot of time in online discussions such as this one. I think that a broader perspective not only has value but is necessary to promote the development of the an operating system as a whole entity (which consists of more than just code). It's even necessary to further the interests of those who focus exclusively on the code. >I doubt that you can change their minds. Many already agree with me. I wish I could convince them to speak up more often instead of sending private e-mail telling me to stick to my guns! In this controversy, I'm very MUCH on the front lines, despite what Jordan says. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21:26: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E096B1573E for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02424; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:24:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:52:00 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4922.936836036@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:13 PM 9/8/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > O'Reilly has turned down several book proposals on BSD UNIX -- from me and > > from other authors -- saying that Linux has so much more market share that it > >Perhaps they just didn't like you. They asked me to do a book and I >turned them down due to too many committments elsewhere. They've also >published 2 FreeBSD books in Japanese - I saw them the last time I was >in Tokyo. That was probably before I spoke to them. Alas, their concern now is that they already haVE too MANY FreeBSD titles in print and are not seeing sufficient profit on them relative to the Linux books. >We are getting up on the charts I have not noticed that FreeBSD has passed any other OS in the market share rankings by IDC, Gartner, or any other firm that collects such data. >and the ports are coming. I've >counted at least 3 new products in the last 2 months - we have the XNI >network monitoring software (which will be demo'd at the upcoming >BAFUG meeting), we have the Polyserve load balancing package (adding >FreeBSD to its Solaris and Linux product line before NT even) and we >have C-Forge (see recent press). That's good news. Note, though, that these are already available for Solaris, from which FreeBSD is an easy port. They're also niche products. I want to see Quickbooks and TurboTax; CorelDraw, CorelPaint, and WordPerfect; Borland Delphi; the Opera browser; Eudora Pro. To name a few. > The "buy-in" I'm also getting at >trade-shows and other vendor-populated events more recently is also >very heartening. Just 3 years ago, the responses I got to inquiries >ranged from "what's FreeBSD?" to "we already support Linux" ("um, >we're not a linux") and many vendors at COMDEX were just basically >clueless about our very existence. Now, many trade-shows and press >articles later, I'm getting outright statements of "I'm *really glad* >you came to talk to us, let me introduce you to our CTO!" and >"FreeBSD? Yes, we have a port for that already in progress. Let me >give you my card" from some of those very same vendors. That reaction is certainly better than before, and I hope you don't mind if I take credit for some of the consciousness-raising behind it. But is there follow-through? I have not seen many actual product releases. >In any case, we've expended many bytes in this mailing list in >discussing the topic and frankly it's starting to become only tiring, >not enlightening or motivating. I think I've provided ample reason for folks to get motivated. The gap between FreeBSD and Linux is growing; FreeBSD's market share isn't keeping up with that of Linux; Linux-only open source programs are appearing. FreeBSD machines are still hidden in the closet like a dirty secret, while Linux is out in the front office. This needs to change. > Discussions which serve only to tire >one out are not useful discussions in my book and nothing you're ever >going to say will change my mind on THAT particular point, So, instead of dissing the discussion, add something to it! So far, most of your comments have been to the effect that "There's no problem; all's right for the world; there's no need for any discussion." That *is* tiresome; it throws a wet blanket on discourse that might be productive. >so you >might as well save your fingers too. Rather than continue discuss the >"memes of advocacy" and other mere conceptualizations of progress in >all the areas you say we lack it, it's my personal choice to keep >"feeding the PR machine" by visiting trade shows, speaking before >audiences and press weasels of various shapes and colors, and doing >the whole road tour thing in general since that seems like the most >tangible way to make progress. Want me to do that? Then help to ensure that I can go ahead with plans to release a high-end FreeBSD distribution. One of the things the investors are holding out on is that they MUST be assured that Walnut Creek does not and will not control development. Which, right now, it seems to, since it runs the primary servers and provide income to you, Mike Smith, and (correct me if I'm wrong on this) David Greenman. This gives it substantial control of FreeBSD's purse strings. Legally, Walnut Creek owns the work you do on company time, too -- so long as it pays you a salary. (If it pays FreeBSD, Inc. for your services as a consultant, or pays you as an independent contractor with an explicit contract provision stating that it doesn't get all the rights, that's different.) Ironically, Linux has a big advantage in this regard. Linus doesn't work for Caldera, or Red Hat, or SuSE. Bob Young claimed in a recent interview that this is important to Linux's success, and -- judging from what I'm hearing from the investors I'm working with -- he's right. The investors think it'd be a bad risk to dive in so long as Walnut Creek is so much in control. On the other hand, if the development efforts are clearly independent of Walnut Creek, and -- better still -- Walnut Creek is willing to be one of the pioneering dealers for the new distro -- I've got a strong argument and will likely get the funding. If I can get this business going -- and, again, this depends on the assurances I mention above -- you can BET I'll be at trade shows because I will suddenly have the $500-1000 per trip I'd need to travel. (A typical COMDEX can easily run up $1000 in travel expenses, and going to FreeBSDCon will cost that much at least just to get there and stay in a hotel. That's one of the reasons I've submitted several abstracts for papers: financial necessity.) If the business gets started, I'll have a good business reason to be at conferences to push FreeBSD, and won't starve as a result of doing so. Otherwise, the investors will opt for OpenBSD or just walk away, and a big opportunity will be lost to all of us. Including Walnut Creek. The enhanced distro, and the positive press and larger user base it provides, could help them sell an AWFUL lot of copies of all FreeBSD-related products. This includes its own distro, Greg's books, and even T-shirts. So, Jordan, what I'm able to do is really in your hands. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21:25:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B49115717 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:25:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02436; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:25:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908212115.04642ca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:22:39 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld , David Schwartz From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD market share statistics Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908231358.49363@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <000e01befa2a$a2d34dc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <19990908114806.04124@ns.int.ftf.net> <000e01befa2a$a2d34dc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:13 PM 9/8/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Hmmm maybe. I agree about "scarce programming resources", but still, > that isn't the case of every software company, no ? > (programmer vs. potential income considered) > > Of course the "leader" OS will carry the product -- just as we're > seeing products disappear in the UNIX world and reappear NT-only. Amazing; we agree for once. Could it be that we have consensus at least on one point of the discussion? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21:50:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6380215158 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14580; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:48:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990908211304.046462a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:54 PM 9/8/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > >On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > 5. An "elitist" attitude which discourages even very talented > > > potential contributors to the code base; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >Ok, I can't claim to be even moderately talented but having transitioned > >from a 'potential contributor' to an 'actual contributor' to a 'somewhat > >active committer' over the period of about 2 months my perception of the > >FreeBSD project is in direct opposition of this statement. > > Maybe that's because (a) You've tried to contribute code, not other things > such as strategies for advocacy; Well, you didn't say advocacy strategies, you said 'contributors to the code base', so changing arguements here isn't going to work. > and/or (b) you've contributed in areas where the person or persons who > controlled that "turf" welcomed the input. The few times I've > volunteered code, the person responsible for that area has acted > insulted that I didn't think it was perfect already. I don't see any of these contributions in gnats so its a little hard to comment on the specific instance. Since when does a limited sampleing allow you to paint such a broad picture of the whole project? Regardless, a number of things I initially wished to 'fix' in FreeBSD weren't broken to begin with. In some cases cosmetic 'fixes' should and are rejected. In some cases they're desired. I'm not going to say that the Project doesn't have its Matt Dillons and Terry Lamberts but in general those situations don't bleed over into the rest of the general population. I'm sure that are lots of contributors that coded up a nifty widget and never managed to hold interest in it long enough to pursue getting it into the tree. While it would be nice if this never happened, it does happen but not out of any act of malice. I've got one example thats pretty good; arcnet drivers, which I'm sort of sitting on. I'm trying to get them working but its not high on my list of priorities and it requires other work to cleanly integrate into FreeBSD, which I don't have the cycles to deal with ATM. Am I rejecting the work that fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru did in porting the NetBSD drivers to FreeBSD? No. Could he do something to speed up the process? Yes. That he only posted a few times about it indicates to me that it works well enough for him in his environment and he feels no real need to push the code until it gets committed. Clearly the Project loses because of this but unless someone else is willing to step in and do testing, port the generic ARP code from NetBSD and push those changes into the tree before I get around to it there isn't much we, as the Project, can do. What would your solution be in the generic case, and in this specific case? Should we just blindly commit everything that manages to patch cleanly and deal with the consequences? This seems to be the way that Linux does things but I really don't want to go down that path. The FreeBSD way of doing things has produced some very good results. Letting things get sloppy at this point would not be progress in a positive direction. > > > 6. A shortage of contributors to handle known problems in the code > > > base (due to items 1 and 5 above); and > > > >The rate of growth of the committer base is in line with the projects > >ability to properly assimilate the new members. > > If so, then how come Jordan, and others, frequently post messages saying, > "We're only human and we don't have enough help?" Because this is the nature of ALL projects, free software included. I didn't say that "the growth rate of the committer base is in line with the workload to which it applies itself". You're trying to switch arguements again. Stop. > >There will always be a shortage of contributors. > > It could sure get a lot better. There will always be a shortage of contributors. > >I see a large part of your complaints as simple hand-waving. > > No, they're not hand-waving. They're based on consistent data from > multiple, reliable sources. No, they're based on you not sticking to a single arguement and following it to the point where its fully settled. If you keep switching arguements the second people start to shoot you down you'll never arrive at any conclusions. Since this tactic appears to be deliberate to forward some set of goals that you've kept to yourself, I choose to call this behavior 'hand-waving'. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 22:10:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A073714E37 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:10:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07200; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:52:00 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:08:30 -0700 Message-ID: <7196.936853710@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So, instead of dissing the discussion, add something to it! So far, > most of your comments have been to the effect that "There's no problem; Anything which I say that contradicts your gloom-and-doom assessment automatically falls into the category of "ignoring the problem" and thus, as we've more than adequately proven in this mailing list, there's really no point in discussing it with you. You've already amply demonstrated that you see only in black-and-white and thus having a discussion about color is, well, pretty pointless. Arguing with polemicists is what tires me out! > Want me to do that? Then help to ensure that I can go ahead > with plans to release a high-end FreeBSD distribution. One of the things > the investors are holding out on is that they MUST be assured that > Walnut Creek does not and will not control development. Which, There are several organizations who want to create "high end distributions" at this stage, and some of them have waved non-trivial amounts of money in my face in the discussions we've had to date - it's hardly a new or non-obvious idea, after all. Does this mean that I'm jumping for their dollar bills or "son, we'll make you a star" promises without considering what the 2nd-order effects might be? Of course not, and without knowing more about what your "investors" are thinking about, I'm certainly not going to openly endorse any such thing or make promises about whether I will or won't attempt to spike their guns if I don't like what they're doing. That's no more or less than I've told the other folks, and it's always been my policy in these matters to move slowly and carefully, doing my best to see just what each such group of people are up to and have in mind before I know if it's going to be compatible with the project's own goals. In many cases, it's best that the company in question simply work separately on its own objectives and try to share what resources they can rather than have an unhappy marriage, and this strategem has worked well for companies like Whistle and Juniper so why mess with it? The Walnut Creek CDROM relationship is one where we mostly lucked out since we didn't really know one another well before getting into it and things have gone surprisingly well despite that fact. It's not a type of luck I'd rely on again, however. Which kind of begs the question: If these folks are so serious, why haven't they even talked to any of the other people actually involved in the project? The other investor-types certainly have, and it should again be re-emphasised that I'm only interested in sincere partners with something truly of value to offer the FreeBSD Project when we start talking about this kind of thing, I'm not into participating in some clueless VC's get-rich-quick scheme or courting a set of people who aren't really sure which horse they want to back anyway; I've watched those people and they tend to switch horses a lot in mid-stream, too. I'm also not here to make my fortune and I think that's already been adequately proven by the number of insanely profitable start-ups I've passed on just to remain where I am. I and the others are here as custodians of FreeBSD to ensure that all of its technology and its partnerships are good ones. If these good partnerships also make some money for the participants then more power to them, of course, but that's a side-effect and not the primary goal. The primary goal is to make sure that the project does well, gets fed the right things and doesn't eat any poison while it's wandering around the computing landscape. Not unlike caring for a labrador retriever, I guess. :) > So, Jordan, what I'm able to do is really in your hands. You've given me far less information than any of the other people I've already put at arm's length, and I'm not talking about castles in clouds and other really attractive scenarios because EVERYBODY paints those things when they're trying to sell an idea, such scenarios often have nothing whatsoever to do with the ensuing reality or 9 out of 10 startups wouldn't fail. What determines who that lucky 1 out of 10 will be is who's involved, how much investment is being made and just how and where these investors expect to get their money BACK OUT again. What's the business model? What are the projections for profitability? Who are the principals in this company? What's their track record? Again, knowing that statistics are strongly against you and that 9/10 is pretty bad odds for survival, anyone *not* asking such questions is frankly setting themselves up for nothing more than a fall and I can't afford to let that falling body be the FreeBSD Project. If you have more to tell me than what you've told me so far, let's hear it. If not, it sounds exactly like the same story I've heard 50 times already from exceedingly dubious businessmen with dubious credentials hoping there's still enough gold at Sutter's mill to make a good strike. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 22:16:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C8D14E37; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07218; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:14:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Nik Clayton , Rod Taylor , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good memes vs. good code In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:37:37 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990908195708.0463db80@localhost> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:14:41 -0700 Message-ID: <7214.936854081@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The people who have argued with me the longest and the loudest on > this list have been those who are very code-centric. For example, > Jordan Hubbard wrote, in a recent message: > > >All this talk of dominant memes and subverting the > >current paradigm is mere fiddle-faddle when it comes right down to it > >becuase it's the front-liners who do the work and the front liners who > >I respect. > > By "front liners," of course, he means the coders. But the development BZZZZT. Nice guess, Brett, and thanks for playing! But you got it completely wrong, of course, because I was talking about the front line ADVOCATES. The people actually writing articles, showing up at trade-shows, investing their own money, if necessary, to give away FreeBSD pens and buttons at Linux groups and try and talk about how wonderful FreeBSD is. THAT is a front-line evangelist and the mark of a successful one is that he or she doesn't spend their time sitting around posting long-winded screeds about how the project managers are doing everything wrong, they're out there actually pounding pavement and doing very tangible, measurable things. I said it before and I'll say it again: The last mainstream article we saw from you was in Smart Reseller, a long time ago now. I also see you at trade shows now and then, but all you seem to do there is take the opportunity to fire your guns at us, you're not one of the other folks who line up in the morning and ask for flyers and stuff to take around to the other vendors and generally Be Helpful. I don't see you doing any number of other things I see the front-liners doing and I'm talking about YOUR supposed area of specialty, advocacy, and not coding. Don't try and wriggle out of this one on the pretext that I'm not pointing out any of the shortcomings you have which matter. I'm talking very *specifically* about your lack of contribution to this area. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 22:44:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7992C14D1D; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:44:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.9]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAC38E1; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:44:06 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA66758; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:30:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 07:30:55 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Terry Lambert , Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net, obrien@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MS & Linux duopoly Message-ID: <19990909073055.J64229@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199909090056.RAA07813@usr02.primenet.com> <199909090317.XAA02089@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <199909090317.XAA02089@bellsouth.net> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * W Gerald Hicks (wghicks@bellsouth.net) [990909 07:14]: >> One response to this is to ensure that -ports patch files get >> integrated (not just emailed or contributed) back to the project >> maintainers. Been there, tried that. Sometimes you do it against deaf man's ears. But I'll just be more of a hardhead than they are now shall I? =) >To be fair, a few committers *are* going the extra mile for these >efforts (David Obrien probably deserves special recognition here). Indeed. David has done tremendous things. [Gerald/David: The Dragon book plus the Unix Prog Env book are in my possession now =) Just to let you know] -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best A frightened mental vortex we will be, a Sun we seek, a Sun we flee... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 23:33:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377201510E for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 23:33:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-204.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.204]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id BAA22279; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:32:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37D75476.1DDB76EE@airnet.net> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 01:32:22 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good memes vs. good code References: <7214.936854081@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > BZZZZT. Nice guess, Brett, and thanks for playing! What? The FreeBSD Gameshow? Is this anything like "You Don't Know Jack"?! > But you got it completely wrong, of course, because I was talking > about the front line ADVOCATES. The people actually writing articles, > showing up at trade-shows, investing their own money, if necessary, to > give away FreeBSD pens and buttons at Linux groups and try and talk > about how wonderful FreeBSD is. THAT is a front-line evangelist and > the mark of a successful one is that he or she doesn't spend their > time sitting around posting long-winded screeds about how the project > managers are doing everything wrong, they're out there actually > pounding pavement and doing very tangible, measurable things. I've got a great text file on screwing with WetWare. Let's break out the 6-8 Hz generators... -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 1:19:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B29515133 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:19:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.0.1) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:18:10 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (10.100.35.12 [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id SNZVMKZT; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:17:17 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11OzPR-000Hw1-00; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:18:21 +0100 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:18:20 +0100 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: regnauld@ftf.net, bright@wintelcom.net, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, kehlet@techfuel.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? Message-ID: <19990909091820.A68881@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990909020944.3B2B014D42@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19990909020944.3B2B014D42@hub.freebsd.org> From: Dominic Mitchell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 07:09:44PM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > /etc/inittab > > > > etc.. > > printing system from hell. Oooh, don't start me, I've been wrestling with it all week under Solartus. Solaris (2.6 & later) has the wonderful concept of *two* network print systems. The old way, and the new way. Which one you end up using depends on which part of the answerbook you use. This is not made clear *at* *all* by any of the documentation. So I started adding networked printers on the print server, and realised that it was doing the wrong thing, and I really wanted to add them using the old way, which spools jobs locally first. It's a bloody nightmare. And then there's the concepts of forms, wheels and so on and it gets more complicated. And the interface scripts, which are always wrong. And the fact the Solaris doesn't actually update the printer settings when you ask it to with lpadmin (you have to delete the printer and recreate it with the new settings). OTOH, I don't think that much of the BSD printing system. It works, but it's not as scalable as I'd like. I'm going to investigate CUPS soon (). -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "vi has two modes the one in which it beeps and the one in which it doesnt." -- Anon. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 1:44:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9C714C3E for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:44:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA36798; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:44:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Phil Regnauld , Alfred Perlstein , Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? References: <19990908100207.37441@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990908103212.A68320@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> <19990908160441.B811@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Sep 1999 10:44:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Dominic Mitchell's message of "Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:04:41 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dominic Mitchell writes: > The dependency information can be a lot harder. There has been > discussion about this in -hackers a while back. As usual, nothing came > of it, though. I think Eivind was one of the instigators... Yes. There's a proof-of-concept tarball somewhere on his freefall web page. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 2: 2: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF96315061 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 44060 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Sep 1999 09:01:09 -0000 Date: 9 Sep 1999 02:01:09 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:01:09 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Message-ID: <19990909020107.E42659@dub.net> References: <4922.936836036@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 09:52:00PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Want me to do that? Then help to ensure that I can go ahead > with plans to release a high-end FreeBSD distribution. One of the things > the investors are holding out on is that they MUST be assured that > Walnut Creek does not and will not control development. Which, > right now, it seems to, since it runs the primary servers and > provide income to you, Mike Smith, and (correct me if I'm wrong on > this) David Greenman. This gives it substantial control of FreeBSD's > purse strings. Legally, Walnut Creek owns the work you do on company > time, too -- so long as it pays you a salary. (If it pays FreeBSD, Inc. > for your services as a consultant, or pays you as an independent > contractor with an explicit contract provision stating that it doesn't > get all the rights, that's different.) Argh. Brett this is one of a few times that you have made this totally uninformed claim about the relationship between the project and Walnut Creek CDROM. You have _no_ first hand, or even second hand knowledge as to how this is laid out except for your wild fears which you seem to have let loose. Being an employee of WC and working solely on FreeBSD, I have first hand knowledge. The relationship is very simple. We give them a release schedule so that they know when to expect to be able to replicate/sell new products and in return they support us financially by paying for things like trips to trade shows, and ethernet cards for Bill Paul :) That's it. The picture you paint of Walnut Creek CDROM as the looming business holding Jordan and the FreeBSD project's puppet strings is absurd and miles from the truth. Here's some more first hand info, _none_ of us are in this for the money. Most certainly not. We work for Walnut Creek CDROM on FreeBSD because we believe in it as *the* kick-ass operating system. Do you really think that we'd continue to do so if WC was holding the project's puppet strings? -Bill -- -=| --- B i l l S w i n g l e --- http://www.dub.net/ -=| unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| Different all twisty a of in maze are you, passages little To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 2: 2:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C934E15BE8 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:02:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05466; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:02:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909020227.045a31b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 02:05:01 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990908211304.046462a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:48 AM 9/9/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >Well, you didn't say advocacy strategies, you said 'contributors to the >code base', so changing arguements here isn't going to work. I'm not "changing arguments;" I'm making two distinct points. First, contributions to the code base are impeded by ego, territoriality, and elitism. Second, contributions that DON'T involve code are considered to be second-rate, even if they're needed very bit as much as code. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 2: 2:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C833215CFA for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:02:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05469; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:02:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909020511.0473c730@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 03:01:58 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7196.936853710@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:08 PM 9/8/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Anything which I say that contradicts your gloom-and-doom assessment It's not "gloom and doom;" it's a wake-up call. >automatically falls into the category of "ignoring the problem" Ignoring a wake-up call IS a problem. When one recognizes that a problem is worsening exponentially, the time to fix it is quite short. It's like water lilies in a pond which -- in the presence of excessive amounts of phosphates -- double in area overnight. By the time you say, "Gee, there are a lot of lilies in this pond," the situation is ALREADY out of hand. >and >thus, as we've more than adequately proven in this mailing list, >there's really no point in discussing it with you. There has been some productive discussion here. For example, there has been almost complete agreement that creation of native ports depends not on the absolute size of an OS's user base but on market share rank. This strongly suggests that FreeBSD must advance its market share rank in order to get ports. > You've already >amply demonstrated that you see only in black-and-white and thus >having a discussion about color is, well, pretty pointless. Arguing >with polemicists is what tires me out! It appears that you yourself may be guilty of the charge of which you accuse me. I've expressed many opinions here which are not at all black-and-white. To brand me as a polemicist is, ironically, to be one. >There are several organizations who want to create "high end >distributions" at this stage, and some of them have waved non-trivial >amounts of money in my face in the discussions we've had to date - >it's hardly a new or non-obvious idea, after all. Does this mean that >I'm jumping for their dollar bills or "son, we'll make you a star" >promises without considering what the 2nd-order effects might be? What "2nd-order effects" are you concerned about? In any event, the folks who want to bankroll me are anything but waving huge amounts of cash around with abandon. But they have great faith in me and want me to try it. They want it to be a solid effort and not a flash in the pan. > Of >course not, and without knowing more about what your "investors" are >thinking about, I'm certainly not going to openly endorse any such >thing I'm not asking for an endorsement; one shouldn't need one to proceed with the creation and marketing of an open source operating system distribution. Anyone should be able to take the code and run with it. What I (and they) are concerned about is that the effort not be blocked by Walnut Creek CD-ROM, which has the power to do that because it controls the development process. Since I'd invest a significant portion of my time and they'd invest a bunch of money, this is important. >or make promises about whether I will or won't attempt to spike >their guns if I don't like what they're doing. This is exactly what concerns me -- and should concern others. The fact that you are not reaffirming the stated policy of the FreeBSD project -- to wit, that the code is there for anyone to use for any purpose -- is VERY worrisome and should be of great concern to anyone who is considering contributing. Is FreeBSD really free for all to use? Or only for folks who do things of which Jordan Hubbard or Walnut Creek CD-ROM approve? >That's no more or less than I've told the other folks, and it's always >been my policy in these matters to move slowly and carefully, doing my >best to see just what each such group of people are up to and have in >mind before I know if it's going to be compatible with the project's >own goals. In many cases, it's best that the company in question >simply work separately on its own objectives and try to share what >resources they can rather than have an unhappy marriage, and this >strategem has worked well for companies like Whistle and Juniper so >why mess with it? You haven't acted to "spike the guns" of Whistle and Juniper. But if your comment above means that you might attempt to sabotage a project that involved, say, a degree of evangelism you did not like, this is of great concern indeed! As mentioned above, it flies in the face of the principles which have guided development of the BSDs since the beginning. >The Walnut Creek CDROM relationship is one where we mostly lucked out >since we didn't really know one another well before getting into it >and things have gone surprisingly well despite that fact. It's not a >type of luck I'd rely on again, however. Which kind of begs the >question: If these folks are so serious, why haven't they even talked >to any of the other people actually involved in the project? Because they wouldn't know what to ask. They're not techies, nor are they VCs. They're "angel" investors -- clients for whom I've installed BSD systems. Their businesses have done well because of it. They're saying (and this is almost a direct quote from one of them, who's a lawyer), "Brett, this BSD stuff is working better than our colleagues' Linux systems, even. We can't believe it isn't better known or that the big software houses aren't developing for it. Why don't you start a business selling software like what you installed for us? We'll help bankroll you." >The >other investor-types certainly have, and it should again be >re-emphasised that I'm only interested in sincere partners with >something truly of value to offer the FreeBSD Project when we start >talking about this kind of thing, I'm not into participating in some >clueless VC's get-rich-quick scheme or courting a set of people who >aren't really sure which horse they want to back anyway; I've watched >those people and they tend to switch horses a lot in mid-stream, too. I'm not interested in get-rich-quick schemes either, and you can bet that if I do base this project on FreeBSD, it's going to offer value and reflect well on FreeBSD. If successful, it will ramp up FreeBSD's growth curve by seriously invading markets where Linux and NT are currently growing faster and where BSD UNIX has previously made little headway. There are zillions of businesses who, like these clients, would benefit greatly from such a product. >I'm also not here to make my fortune and I think that's already been >adequately proven by the number of insanely profitable start-ups I've >passed on just to remain where I am. I and the others are here as >custodians of FreeBSD to ensure that all of its technology and its >partnerships are good ones. If these good partnerships also make some >money for the participants then more power to them, of course, but >that's a side-effect and not the primary goal. The primary goal is to >make sure that the project does well, gets fed the right things and >doesn't eat any poison while it's wandering around the computing >landscape. Not unlike caring for a labrador retriever, I guess. :) There's nothing about such a project that would poison FreeBSD. But the reverse is not true. There are things Walnut Creek could do -- and you know what they are -- to make the creation of alternative or enhanced distributions difficult. Again, your comment about spiking guns, above, is of great concern. If you reserve the right to pick winners and losers, and/or to make it difficult for someone other than Walnut Creek to sell a package based on FreeBSD, this should give anyone who believes in the BSD license and development model pause. >You've given me far less information than any of the other people I've >already put at arm's length, and I'm not talking about castles in >clouds and other really attractive scenarios because EVERYBODY paints >those things when they're trying to sell an idea, such scenarios often >have nothing whatsoever to do with the ensuing reality or 9 out of 10 >startups wouldn't fail. What determines who that lucky 1 out of 10 >will be is who's involved, how much investment is being made and just >how and where these investors expect to get their money BACK OUT >again. What's the business model? What are the projections for >profitability? Who are the principals in this company? What's their >track record? I'm not applying to you for financing, so the VC-like questions are not relevant here. I am, again, asking for assurance that you and/or Walnut Creek will not use your control of the development process to hobble or prevent the creation of alternative distributions. >Again, knowing that statistics are strongly against you and that 9/10 >is pretty bad odds for survival, anyone *not* asking such questions is >frankly setting themselves up for nothing more than a fall and I can't >afford to let that falling body be the FreeBSD Project. There is no danger of the FreeBSD project being a "falling body." The project I am undertaking can only help it. But it could also be hurt by it. > If you have >more to tell me than what you've told me so far, let's hear it. I've covered a great deal of additional information here. But again, I'm not asking for financing or any special support, so that's not what's relevant. What's relevant is this: are either you or Walnut Creek going to violate the spirit of BSD development by attempting to pick who can do a distribution and who cannot? Your comments here are troubling exactly because you will not make a commitment not to do so. > If not, >it sounds exactly like the same story I've heard 50 times already from >exceedingly dubious businessmen with dubious credentials hoping there's >still enough gold at Sutter's mill to make a good strike. If there's gold to be made, I intend to make it via hard work and sweat, not via a lucky strike. One nice thing about staying away from conventional VCs is that the investors understand this. But they ARE smart enough to be concerned about the issues I've mentioned. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 2:25:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3184150E2 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:25:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05648; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:23:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909030215.045a1ee0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 03:23:55 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Good memes vs. good code Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7214.936854081@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:14 PM 9/8/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >BZZZZT. Nice guess, Brett, and thanks for playing! > >But you got it completely wrong, of course, because I was talking >about the front line ADVOCATES. The people actually writing articles, >showing up at trade-shows, investing their own money, if necessary, to >give away FreeBSD pens and buttons at Linux groups and try and talk >about how wonderful FreeBSD is. I write articles and columns each month in which I mention BSD UNIX and FreeBSD in particular. I doubt that there's anyone who does so more often. The fact that you apparently don't read them doesn't change that fact. I've also mentioned BSD frequently in speeches and presentations, which do far more to persuade an audience than a cheap giveaway. As for passing out buttons: I'm afraid I'm not very big on that sort of advocacy -- perhaps because it has zero effect on me. I dump large quantities of buttons and stickers that have been pinned on me or given to me after every trade show without a second thought. If I didn't, I would probably not be able to get into my office. > THAT is a front-line evangelist and >the mark of a successful one is that he or she doesn't spend their >time sitting around posting long-winded screeds about how the project >managers are doing everything wrong, they're out there actually >pounding pavement and doing very tangible, measurable things. Handing out individual buttons is not the most efficient use of time or the most effective form of advocacy, IMHO. (Others may think differently, and they're welcome to engage in those activities.) I think that what I do has made much more of a difference. >I said it before and I'll say it again: The last mainstream article we >saw from you was in Smart Reseller, a long time ago now. I don't suppose you've taken the time to read my columns or my other published articles, then. > I also see >you at trade shows now and then, but all you seem to do there is take >the opportunity to fire your guns at us, If I were firing guns, believe me, you'd know it. I have not done any such thing. >you're not one of the other >folks who line up in the morning and ask for flyers and stuff to take >around to the other vendors and generally Be Helpful. Alas, I can't afford to go to a trade show merely to be a "gofer." And, as mentioned above, I do not believe that passing out flyers or buttons is necessarily the most effective thing I could do. To extend the "front lines" analogy, I can produce far greater results manning the artillery or serviing as an officer than by serving as cannon fodder, and that's what I prefer to do when I engage in advocacy. It's not clear why you are so eager to diss such contributions. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 2:45:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A437F151DC for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:45:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05806; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:43:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909032923.045a1da0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 03:43:53 -0600 To: Bill Swingle From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990909020107.E42659@dub.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> <4922.936836036@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:01 AM 9/9/99 -0700, Bill Swingle wrote: >Argh. Brett this is one of a few times that you have made this totally >uninformed claim about the relationship between the project and Walnut >Creek CDROM. You have _no_ first hand, or even second hand knowledge as >to how this is laid out except for your wild fears which you seem to >have let loose. Today, Jordan made a comment about "spiking the guns" of activities of which he did not approve. This indicates that such things are indeed of concern. From the buzz on the lists, other folks -- such as Terry Lambert -- seem to have raised the issue as well. >Being an employee of WC and working solely on FreeBSD, I have first hand >knowledge. The relationship is very simple. We give them a release >schedule so that they know when to expect to be able to replicate/sell >new products and in return they support us financially by paying for >things like trips to trade shows, and ethernet cards for Bill Paul :) >That's it. In that case, will Walnut Creek commit not to interfere with -- or, in fact, to assist -- efforts to bring out alternative distributions? >The picture you paint of Walnut Creek CDROM as the looming >business holding Jordan and the FreeBSD project's puppet strings is >absurd and miles from the truth. Well, legally, there is a real concern. If WC pays you to work on FreeBSD as an employee, they do own the work you do on it, as well as the copyrights on any English or C code you might write and contribute on company time. What's more, they do own equipment that's vital to the project. The project really IS dependent on them. Having been around the block a few times, I know that any such risk must be explored as a part of due diligence, since the attitudes of people and companies DO change. Yes, this means being a bit paranoid, but that's what due diligence is. I would hope that, if Walnut Creek did anything to discourage the production of other distributions of FreeBSD, you and others would howl long and loud about it. But Jordan's remarks concern me. Especially the aforementioned one about spiking guns, but also others. >Here's some more first hand info, _none_ of us are in this for the money. >Most certainly not. We work for Walnut Creek CDROM on FreeBSD because we >believe in it as *the* kick-ass operating system. Do you really think >that we'd continue to do so if WC was holding the project's puppet >strings? As mentioned above, it legally does hold those strings. The question is, are there provisions in place to make sure it doesn't ever tug on them? And if it never intends TO tug on them, is it willing to commit to that? Or, better, to relinquish those strings? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 2:51:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sanyusan.se (enterprise.sanyusan.se [195.24.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525C21522C; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:51:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anders@enterprise.sanyusan.se) Received: (from anders@localhost) by enterprise.sanyusan.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA06651; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:49:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anders) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:49:58 +0200 From: Anders Andersson To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Eivind Eklund , cjc26@cornell.edu, Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recipies [was Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars calendar.history] Message-ID: <19990909114958.A6445@enterprise.sanyusan.se> References: <199908091607.LAA23828@free.pcs> <19990810012303.I99680@bitbox.follo.net> <19990810090943.N31076@freebie.lemis.com> <19990810180558.F31076@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19990810180558.F31076@freebie.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) [990810 10:33]: > > A number of Swedish friends have told me that in work contracts in > Stockholm round the (last) turn of the century there were undertakings > on the part of the company that the canteen would serve something else > than salmon at least one day a week. > This is true. Nowadays some people want to put in work contracts to have salmon served at least once a week :-) (Sorry for the late reply, way to much work) Anders -- Anders Andersson anders@sanyusan.se Sanyusan International AB http://www.sanyusan.se/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 2:55: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0437214C3D for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA24401; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:03:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:03:01 +1000 From: John Birrell To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good memes vs. good code Message-ID: <19990909200301.W36761@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> References: <7214.936854081@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990909030215.045a1ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990909030215.045a1ee0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 03:23:55AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 03:23:55AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > I write articles and columns each month in which I mention BSD > UNIX and FreeBSD in particular. I doubt that there's anyone who does so > more often. The fact that you apparently don't read them doesn't change > that fact. I've also mentioned BSD frequently in speeches and presentations, > which do far more to persuade an audience than a cheap giveaway. The time and effort that you spend sending messages to chat@FreeBSD.org would be better spent helping the FreeBSD cause. IMHO, the messages you post here distract us from the cause. You may say (as others say to you), that I should unsubscribe if I don't want to put up with the noise you cause. FWIW, there have been four occasions when I have unsubscribed from this list on the last few years, each caused by you. And yet life repeats... again... sigh. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 3: 4: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA64B150CA for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:04:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA05931; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 04:02:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909035742.0473d2c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 04:02:45 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , , , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause In-Reply-To: <000001befa71$c3920e10$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <19990909025443.23751.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:16 PM 9/8/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: >The rights of the original copyright holder to >the derived work are precisely the same as to the original work. Not quite. The original copyright holder can't publish the derivative work without permission from the person or person(s) who introduced new material. This is one of the traps inherent in the GPL. If you publish GPLed code, and someone else modifies it and publishes an enhanced version, your original code may now be obsolete. But you don't have the right to do what you want with the improved code unless the person who improved it grants you that right. Since the new contributor is likely to embrace the GPL's anti-commercial ethos, it's unlikely that he will grant you the right to sell the updated version for money. In a sense, your code has "run away" from you. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 3: 6:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872A214F26 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:05:53 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Bill Swingle" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Subject: RE: Market share and platform support Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:05:53 -0700 Message-ID: <000001befaaa$e6b4b760$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990909032923.045a1da0@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, legally, there is a real concern. If WC pays you to work on FreeBSD > as an employee, they do own the work you do on it, as well as the > copyrights on any English or C code you might write and contribute on > company time. What's more, they do own equipment that's vital to the > project. The project really IS dependent on them. Well, so long as they've released all his previous work under the BSD license, they can only keep for themself future work. In other words, they can stop contributing at any time. *yawn* > Having been around the block a few times, I know that any such risk must > be explored as a part of due diligence, since the attitudes of people > and companies DO change. Yes, this means being a bit paranoid, > but that's what > due diligence is. Yes, the FreeBSD team could stop developing new versions of FreeBSD at any time. Linus Torvalds could die tomorrow, and perhaps there would be nobody around to continue his work. Who knows? The temporal continuity of both Linux's and FreeBSD's development is predicated upon numerous conditions that we can't predict. One should not assume that anything will continue to tomorrow. But I really don't see what you think WC can do to hurt FreeBSD. Whatever they did, what would stop all those people who felt it was bad from continuing the development of FreeBSD in some other direction on their own? In other words, what more could they do than stop helping? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 3: 7:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958781508B for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA05962; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 04:06:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909040348.0473e480@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 04:06:09 -0600 To: John Birrell From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Good memes vs. good code Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990909200301.W36761@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> References: <4.2.0.58.19990909030215.045a1ee0@localhost> <7214.936854081@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990909030215.045a1ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:03 PM 9/9/99 +1000, John Birrell wrote: >The time and effort that you spend sending messages to chat@FreeBSD.org >would be better spent helping the FreeBSD cause. IMHO, the messages >you post here distract us from the cause. IMHO, the messages I post here have the potential to greatly advance the cause, and that's why I'm taking the time to write them. I'm sincerely sorry to hear that you do not agree. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 3:30:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E1815BFF for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:30:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06111; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 04:30:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909040714.04743890@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 04:30:07 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Bill Swingle" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Market share and platform support Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , In-Reply-To: <000001befaaa$e6b4b760$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19990909032923.045a1da0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:05 AM 9/9/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Well, so long as they've released all his previous work under the BSD >license, they can only keep for themself future work. In other words, they >can stop contributing at any time. *yawn* True. Or they can stop allowing contributions made by, say, Jordan and Bill to be used by the publishers of other distributions. Of more serious concern is the fact that files which Walnut Creek employees contribute say something like (C) 19xx Jordan K. Hubbard etc. at the top. Walnut Creek could say that the "contribution" made by this license is invalid because Jordan never owned the copyright on the code to begin with and therefore had no legal right to put his name at the top. > Yes, the FreeBSD team could stop developing new versions of FreeBSD at any >time. Linus Torvalds could die tomorrow, and perhaps there would be nobody >around to continue his work. Who knows? There would be people to take over for Torvalds. As for the FreeBSD team: I have no idea how much knowledge is held by only one person, or how many unpublished tools, if any, are used to build distributions. HOPEFULLY it would be possible to continue development. > The temporal continuity of both Linux's and FreeBSD's development is >predicated upon numerous conditions that we can't predict. One should not >assume that anything will continue to tomorrow. > > But I really don't see what you think WC can do to hurt FreeBSD. Whatever >they did, what would stop all those people who felt it was bad from >continuing the development of FreeBSD in some other direction on their own? >In other words, what more could they do than stop helping? Let's suppose, just for the sake of argument, that some key files in the FreeBSD distributions -- just a few -- began to require a license from Walnut Creek if they were included on a disk that was sold for money. Suddenly, Cheap Bytes couldn't make FreeBSD CD-ROMs without doing clean room reverse engineering of those files or obtaining a license from Walnut Creek, which it might not grant. Ditto anyone else who wanted to sell copies of FreeBSD. Walnut Creek could pick and choose who got to do a distribution easily. I'd hope that Jordan and others would rebel against such a thing. But what if they decided that some publisher was evangelizing in a way they didn't like? They might chose to ace out just that one -- "spiking the gun," so to speak. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 3:38:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426CC14D4F for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:38:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA08631; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:37:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 03:01:58 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990909020511.0473c730@localhost> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 03:37:53 -0700 Message-ID: <8627.936873473@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm not asking for an endorsement; one shouldn't need one to proceed > with the creation and marketing of an open source operating system > distribution. Anyone should be able to take the code and run with > it. I'm glad that you understand that. > This is exactly what concerns me -- and should concern others. The fact > that you are not reaffirming the stated policy of the FreeBSD project -- Oh cripes, you clearly don't understand this, however. What I said, in no uncertain terms, was that I'd try to spike the guns of any effort I felt to be of harm to the project and that's my *personal stance* on this, one which I hold entirely separate from Walnut Creek CDROM and would still hold if I resigned tomorrow and saw a predatory or otherwise harmful 3rd party attempting to do the project harm. Don't you get it? I don't need to be affiliated with Walnut Creek CDROM to diss or "spike" a bad product, and if you and your cronies were to come out with, say, "FreeBSD Ultra L33T CrackOS 10000 - A custom OS specializing in sniffing and penetration of secure networks" well then I doubt you'd get any of us over at FreeBSD central going "wow, this is good stuff, let's help them promote it!" No, what we'd we'd probably be doing is going "Aieee!! Disavow all knowledge! Write angry denouncement!" and I'd be right in there with them, going "aieee!" too. That's what I mean by spiking a product. Now if you don't do nasty, evil things to the project (though your past lack of success in "winning friends and influencing enemies" does make me particularly paranoid where that scenario is concerned) then you've got nothing to worry about, we're not going to ruffle one grey hair on your investor's balding heads. If you do us wrong, however, then we'll go after you with barbeque forks and we don't need to be employed by anyone in particular to do that as FreeBSD project members! Something else to consider is that Walnut Creek CDROM is a business which is also always free to do derived FreeBSD products of its own to make money and help keep the doors open. If you guys start doing something which competes directly with Walnut Creek CDROM's current or planned product line then don't be surprised if they make competetive moves of their own. As an employee of that company, I also may very well help them to do so, and all within the bounds of the BSD license. Just as you can. All of your engineers can hack away on some proprietary or even open-source (with some "understandable lag") solution in an effort to add value to FreeBSD and make your "pro" product more attractive and Walnut Creek CDROM can too (though it's traditionally open-sourced all of its non-DOS tools). I'm not going to give you assurances that Walnut Creek CDROM won't behave like the business that it is, sheesh, that would be nothing less than a lie anyway! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 4: 6:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3AA15B91; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 03:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.167]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA26946; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:22:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA04233; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:22:37 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:22:37 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: wosch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD Social Event in Berlin Message-ID: <19990909122236.A4223@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The event will at 9/10 October 1999, in Berlin. If you are interested, please contact me: wosch@freebsd.org Wolfram -- Wolfram Schneider http://wolfram.schneider.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 5:38:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100191506E for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:38:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2FF884265; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 24F2D9C39; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:37:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: spork Cc: Phil Regnauld , Alfred Perlstein , Eric Wayte , Steven Kehlet , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, spork wrote: :Personally, I think the output of df is a sick joke: : :spork@frothy[~]$ df :/ (/dev/dsk/c0t3d0s0 ): 67198 blocks 28272 files :/usr (/dev/dsk/c0t3d0s6 ): 2594604 blocks 446463 files : :I mean, what the hell?? How full is it? Or am I just supposed to be :optimistic... Try df -k Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 5:52: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radagast.wizard.net (radagast.wizard.net [206.161.15.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBFA015133 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 05:52:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tyson@alumni.stanford.org) Received: from alumni.stanford.org (tc2-s21.wizard.net [206.161.15.97]) by radagast.wizard.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21381; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:51:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199909091251.IAA21381@radagast.wizard.net> To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Can you give me a list of articles?(Was:Re: Good memes vs. good code) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 03:23:55 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990909030215.045a1ee0@localhost> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:50:43 -0400 From: "Donald R. Tyson" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd like to read your articles. Can you give us a list of recent publications? Thanks. Don Tyson > I write articles and columns each month in which I mention BSD > UNIX and FreeBSD in particular. I doubt that there's anyone who does so > more often. The fact that you apparently don't read them doesn't change > that fact. I've also mentioned BSD frequently in speeches and presentations, > which do far more to persuade an audience than a cheap giveaway. > > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 6: 4:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EF515279 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 06:04:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 771E94262; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BA419C39; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:03:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: regnauld@ftf.net, bright@wintelcom.net, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, kehlet@techfuel.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? In-Reply-To: <19990909020944.3B2B014D42@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: : :> /etc/inittab :> :> etc.. : : printing system from hell. As a user of lp, and lpd. Both are from hell. Different planes of Hell, but Hell none the less. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 6:57: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7BC152BB for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24920; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:56:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990909020227.045a31b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:48 AM 9/9/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > >Well, you didn't say advocacy strategies, you said 'contributors to the > >code base', so changing arguements here isn't going to work. > > I'm not "changing arguments;" I'm making two distinct points. First, > contributions to the code base are impeded by ego, territoriality, > and elitism. Second, contributions that DON'T involve code are > considered to be second-rate, even if they're needed very bit as > much as code. And you wonder why people resort to name calling. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 8:32: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4E814CCF; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:31:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27903; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:31:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA21189; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:31:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id KAA27521; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:31:45 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:31:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199909091531.KAA27521@free.pcs> To: brett@lariat.org, chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >At 10:08 PM 9/8/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: Sorry to jump in here, but an objective (outside) opinion might be useful: >I'm not asking for an endorsement; one shouldn't need one to proceed >with the creation and marketing of an open source operating system >distribution. Anyone should be able to take the code and run with >it. What I (and they) are concerned about is that the effort not be >blocked by Walnut Creek CD-ROM, which has the power to do that because >it controls the development process. Since I'd invest a significant >portion of my time and they'd invest a bunch of money, this is important. Brett, do your research. This has already been done, so there is already a precedent. CheapBytes sells a FreeBSD distribution, you don't see WC jumping all over them? Pacific HiTech too, although I think they are now part of (or affilated with) WC. I also remember hearing that there are several distributions in Japan, where FreeBSD is popular; I'm sure that not all of them are from WC. I can't exactly see what you're after here. The license on the FreeBSD code proper says nothing about WC. The fact that they employ several committers is irrelevant. If it was a factor, you would also have to extend that to include all the companies which various committers work for. (Yahoo, MIT, Juniper, Whistle, etc.) I think, based on the development history of FreeBSD _and_ Linux, it's safe to say that this is a non-issue. I further predict that if WC ever attempted to lay claim to the FreeBSD CVS repository, Poul, Søren, Garrett and several others would immediatly set up an alternate site somewhere else. What it sounds like you're asking is: 1. "I want to go off and do my own distribution based on FreeBSD". 2. "I want assurance that FreeBSD Inc. will not undercut or discredit me". As far as I can tell, you don't need permission to do #1. #2 isn't reasonable. Anybody who gives you a blanket assurance like that is either lying or needs their head examined. Your business will succeed or fail on its own merits. It strongly smells to me like you're fishing for a "non-compete" agreeement. Also, based on your prior arguments, you seem to be arguing things both ways. Either a lot of the credit for increased FreeBSD popularity is due to Jordan (who is working the trade shows and popular press), or it is actually due to you (working behind the scenes), in which case Jordan's efforts are irrelevant. If the latter is the case, why are you so damned worried about his actions? And don't wave that "But Jordan tells people that FreeBSD is for servers, and I want to target the desktop; I want him to stop saying that!" argument at me. From a business perspective, this should be considered a good thing. It allows you to carve out your own niche, and have a strong selling point which allows you to differentiate yourself from the other (WC) distribution. In short: 1. You don't need permission or endorsements from FreeBSD, Inc. 2. WC cannot stand in your way. If you want assurances that they won't compete with you, you won't get it. Is this a fair summary? In closing, I'll note that you don't necessarily need support or goodwill from Jordan to succeed. Take a look at Etinc, for example. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 8:32:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94ADC14D34; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13770; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:32:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:32:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Nik Clayton , Rod Taylor , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good memes vs. good code In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990908195708.0463db80@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org God I can't believe I'm replying to this but... On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > The people who have argued with me the longest and the loudest on > this list have been those who are very code-centric. For example, > Jordan Hubbard wrote, in a recent message: > > >All this talk of dominant memes and subverting the > >current paradigm is mere fiddle-faddle when it comes right down to it > >becuase it's the front-liners who do the work and the front liners who > >I respect. > > By "front liners," of course, he means the coders. But the development > of good memes is actually more important, as is shown by the success > of Linux. Development of the memes is, of course, done behind the > front lines, while spreading them requires going out and talking to > PEOPLE -- not coding. And spending a lot of time in online discussions > such as this one. EXCEPT for the fact that you fail to mention that this was about people doing ACTUAL advocacy, not writing code, not contriubting packages, or anything else - ADVOCACY. If you want people start listening to you at least show some respect and do not quote out of context to try to fit your points. God. Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Co-Editor in Chief brett@daemonnews.org * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 8:43:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B35F14BFA for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27949; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:42:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA22875; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:42:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id KAA27568; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:42:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:42:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199909091542.KAA27568@free.pcs> To: brett@lariat.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >At 03:05 AM 9/9/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: >> But I really don't see what you think WC can do to hurt >FreeBSD. Whatever >>they did, what would stop all those people who felt it was bad from >>continuing the development of FreeBSD in some other direction on their own? >>In other words, what more could they do than stop helping? > >Let's suppose, just for the sake of argument, that some key files in the >FreeBSD distributions -- just a few -- began to require a license from >Walnut Creek if they were included on a disk that was sold for money. Let's _NOT_ suppose that. It's just plain stupid. You seem to forget that Jordan is not the sole custodian of FreeBSD. Such a license would absolutely never be able to enter the CVS tree, the global committer community would never allow it. But, humoring you, and engaging in "reducto ad absurdium", what would prevent Linus Torvalds from changing a few key files (which he wrote, and presumably still holds a copyright on) to contain a similar license? I think you're seeing monsters under the bed here. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 8:45:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F53A15CDC for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:45:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27962; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:45:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA23167; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:45:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id KAA27600; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:45:06 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:45:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199909091545.KAA27600@free.pcs> To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >hair on your investor's balding heads. If you do us wrong, however, >then we'll go after you with barbeque forks and we don't need to be ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hm. What happened to your standard FreeBSD issued trident? -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 8:51:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98EEF15E98 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27986; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:50:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA24157; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:50:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id KAA27633; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:50:40 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:50:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199909091550.KAA27633@free.pcs> To: Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: anyone have System V jokes? X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 07:09:44PM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >> >> > /etc/inittab >> > >> > etc.. >> >> printing system from hell. > >Oooh, don't start me, I've been wrestling with it all week under >Solartus. >OTOH, I don't think that much of the BSD printing system. It works, but >it's not as scalable as I'd like. I'm going to investigate CUPS soon >(). Try LprNG. It's not perfect, but is fairly flexible, and usually can be twisted into doing what you want. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 9:22:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC6A15CC9 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09784; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:22:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909102032.046fcaf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:22:13 -0600 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Good memes vs. good code Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990908195708.0463db80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:32 AM 9/9/99 -0400, Brett Taylor wrote: >EXCEPT for the fact that you fail to mention that this was about people >doing ACTUAL advocacy, not writing code, not contriubting packages, or >anything else - ADVOCACY. After Jordan explained that this was what he had in mind, I responded to his comments. Read the thread, and please let's keep the conversation civil. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 10: 9:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98D615CEF for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10364; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:09:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909102233.04706900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 11:09:34 -0600 To: "Donald R. Tyson" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Can you give me a list of articles?(Was:Re: Good memes vs. good code) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909091251.IAA21381@radagast.wizard.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:50 AM 9/9/99 -0400, Donald R. Tyson wrote: >I'd like to read your articles. Can you give us a list of recent publications? I've written more than a thousand published articles and columns. Try the ZDNet Help Channel, ZDNN, and BoardWatch for my most recent stuff. If you go farther back, you'll also find articles and columns in... geeze, there are a LOT... InfoWorld, The Red Herring, CNet, Embedded Systems Programming, Software Development, Visual Developer, The San Jose Mercury News, BYTE (the "old" BYTE, not what they have online now), PC World, Multimedia World, PC/Computing, DDJ, Macworld, Windows Magazine (yes, I even did some programming articles for them at one time), C++ Journal, OS/2 Magazine, the late lamented Micro Cornucopia and Programmer's Journal, and many more. (Those are just the ones that come to mind off the top of my head.) In short, I've been rather prolific in the 15 years I've been writing articles for publication. I'm not sure if you're interested in my portfolio in general or in things that I've written which specifically mention UNIX, BSD UNIX, FreeBSD, or open source licensing (e.g the BSD license vs. the GPL). If the latter (after all, I don't mention these things in EVERYTHING I write, but rather when it's apropos or useful to readers), here are a few staring points. For BSD-related stuff on ZDNet (where Jordan incorrectly claimed that I've only mentioned the use of FreeBSD once), see http://cma.zdnet.com/texis/cma/cma/edit.html?feditsrch=Brett+Glass+and+BSD http://cma.zdnet.com/texis/cma/cma/edit.html?feditsrch=Brett+Glass+and+FreeBSD http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,2293387,00.html I also have two articles for Sm@rt Reseller "in the pipeline" that happen to mention BSD UNIX and FreeBSD in particular. One is on licensing; the other describes optimization of a system to run UNIX. Any search engine will turn up other material I've written which mentions BSD UNIX and/or FreeBSD. Alta Vista brings back more than 200 hits on "Brett Glass and FreeBSD." Then there are some of the Mean Streets columns for BoardWatch, TV and radio appearances (for example, I touched on FreeBSD on ZDTV during a discussion of open source operating systems), several articles at http://www.brettglass.com/, and quite a few trade show presentations, speeches and sessions. Not to mention postings in many online forums. Not everything I do gets online, of course. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 11: 8:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E1614D51 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:08:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id UAA20338; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:06:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id UAA02135; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:10:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990909201058.42260@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:10:58 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support References: <199909091542.KAA27568@free.pcs> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199909091542.KAA27568@free.pcs>; from Jonathan Lemon on Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 10:42:24AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon writes: > > > >Let's suppose, just for the sake of argument, that some key files in the > >FreeBSD distributions -- just a few -- began to require a license from > >Walnut Creek if they were included on a disk that was sold for money. > > Let's _NOT_ suppose that. It's just plain stupid. You seem to forget Key files ? USL ? CSRG ? Been there, done that. *yawn* The F-Files, starring Brett Mulder. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 11:22:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA50151D6 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:22:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA17743; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:21:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAQRaGKI; Thu Sep 9 11:21:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28728; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:21:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909091821.LAA28728@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause To: walton@nordicrecords.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:21:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990909025443.23750.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> from "Dave Walton" at Sep 8, 99 07:52:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > OK. Here's my pat answer for this question, using /usr/include/stdio.h > > as my example: > > > > 1) Do your advertising materials say: > > "Uses the fantastic fileno(3) routine!" > > > > 2) Do your advertising materials say: > > "Now, with industry standard 'stdio.h'!" > > > > If the answer to both of these questions is "No", then the answer > > to the question "Do I have to print the acknowledgement in my > > advertising materials?" is also (a profound) "No". > > Ah, ok. Now I get it. (Thanks also to DES). > I'd still call it an advertising clause, though. If you say "Now, with > industry standard 'stdio.h'!", you aren't claiming credit for it so > much as advertising its presence. But I suppose it's all semantics. Most legal debates _are_ semantic debates. My second example, above, works less well than I had hoped, since the definition of "use" is more agregate, and 'stdio.h' is a single file, not full "software". A more apt example might be a bullet item, such as: o Data stored in the reliable Berkeley Fast File System But I didn't want to research exactly what you would have to say, and I didn't want to get what you'd have to say wrong, so I copped out on that example (besides; I had promised my pat answer, which doesn't use the FFS in example #2). > > I'd be happy for you to find case law proving this theory (it was > > documented extensively in the slashdot discussion, by an intellectual > > property lawyer), > > There's a rarity... A licensing discussion on slashdot that I actually > want to read. Got a pointer? Last Friday's postings. > > The current common law in this regard allows the relicense, due > > to the fact that we are treating software as if it were physical > > property. This allows us to apply the docterine of "adverse use" > > in order to establish what is called a "prescrptive lien" on the > > "property". > > I'll just nod politely and pretend I understood that. :) OK, I'll give a real property example, and I'll avoid the classic "driveway right of way" example. Say the city owns a street, technically, because it is a public street. Say further that you have been parking on that particular street in front of your apartment for 5 years, with no problems. Say now that the city wants to paint the curb red there to keep people from parking there any more. This would be illegal for them to "just do". Why? Because even though the city owns the street, they have historically permitted your use of the street as a parking place for your car, with no complaints. This means that you have engaged in "adverse use": you have used their street, without their permission, as a parking place for your car (if you had their permission, the use would not be adverse). By engaging in this behaviour for a legally indisputable "long time" (indisputable on the definitions of "long time" and "tacit permission"), you have gained the "right" to use the street as a parking place. In other words, you have put ownership of the portion of the street where you park into question: you are now a lien-holder on that property (so is the city). A line established this way, without payment to the actual owner, is called a "prescriptive lien". What can the city do? Because it is a city, it can engage in what is called "emminent domain", and condemn your prescriptive lien, and take your lien away from you. --- Now apply this same logic to people treating software as if it were real property. Notice that UC Berkeley is not a city. 8-). > Your examples of SleepyCat and Sendmail don't seem to quite fit > the question. They are derivitive work, not unmodified code. But I'll > take your word for it. They use part of someone else's property, under a license not approved by the property owner (copyright holder). If people keep insisting that software is property, then if you take someone's code, incorporate it in your product, and they don't stop you for "a long time", then they lose their rights to the code. This assumes that crporations continue pushing the idea that software is the same as property (which they have for the past 30 years). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 11:50:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 505D514E7A for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:50:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA63552; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:19:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by kilt.nothing-going-on.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA41357; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:18:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:18:27 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Message-ID: <19990909081827.A39602@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> <7196.936853710@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <7196.936853710@localhost>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 10:08:30PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, Jordan, On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 10:08:30PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Want me to do that? Then help to ensure that I can go ahead > > with plans to release a high-end FreeBSD distribution. One of the things > > the investors are holding out on is that they MUST be assured that > > Walnut Creek does not and will not control development. Which, > > There are several organizations who want to create "high end > distributions" at this stage, and some of them have waved non-trivial > amounts of money in my face in the discussions we've had to date - Could you do us a favour, and get on the phone to one another, or something, and sort this out? Or, assuming Brett's got these investors lined up, sort out a 'proper' business meeting and resolve them face to face. From this vantage point as an interested observer you both seem to be arguing past one another, each addressing points that the other almost, but didn't quite, make. FWIW, and from this side of the pond, Brett's raised a couple of interesting points re: Walnut Creek and their 'control' of FreeBSD, and what would happen if, hypothetically, some other group were to put together a competing distribution, and these points have occasionally cropped up at UK User Group meetings. I know I'd like to know what WCs official stance on this is. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 12:32: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F32C14EF6 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lowell@world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com (lowell@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18359 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21202; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:31:29 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause References: <000001befa71$c3920e10$021d85d1@youwant.to> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 09 Sep 1999 15:31:29 -0400 In-Reply-To: "David Schwartz"'s message of Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:16:53 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > Legally, pretty much the only difference between a derivitave work and the > original work is the person who did the deriviation might have rights to the > derivative work. All you have to do is change every space to two spaces and > you have made a derived work. The rights of the original copyright holder to > the derived work are precisely the same as to the original work. I Am Not A Lawyer, but this is completely wrong. First of all, a quick check of the US Copyright Office showed me that the definition of a derivative work requires an "original work of authorship." It also gave as an example the fact that making spelling corrections wouldn't qualify, but writing a new chapter would. Furthermore, if the original is still in copyright, its owner's permission is needed to create a derivative work in the first place, but (as best I can tell without spending a lot of time on it) the original's owner does not automatically get any rights to the changes, which belong to the person who wrote them. The rights to the original material are unaffected by the creation of the derived work. I don't think this has much impact on whatever the original point was, but copyright is misunderstood enough without propagating further misinformation. Sorry for the interruption; you can go back to your regularly- scheduled open-source license flamefest now. Be well. Lowell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 12:44:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.freegaypix.com (www.freegaypix.com [216.65.3.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496D51521C; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from webmaster@jmsinternet.com) Received: from jason-s-pc (we-24-30-100-143.we.mediaone.net [24.30.100.143]) by www.freegaypix.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA58164; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from webmaster@jmsinternet.com) Message-Id: <4.1.19990909124244.00e04990@mail.sirius.com> X-Sender: jms@mail.jmsinternet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 12:43:03 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: JMS Internet Subject: Server Setup Referal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm looking to get a software installation done on a server I have already had built. I did not find anyone on the FreeBSD homepage that seemed to do this work, so I thought I would submit this into the forum in case some of you guys have had some good experiences with a company. The server will be used for webhosting and will handle a large amount of connections, so the company in question should have some experience with Webhosting/ISP server setups... I'm located in central CA, and I would be looking for a place anywhere from up north in the bay area, to down south near Los Angeles. If anyone can provide me with some help, and possibly a website address for a company I would greatly appreciate it. For more info, please e-mail me. Thank You. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 13:17:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A407014D4E for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA21957; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 06:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:35:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: dannyman Cc: Chuck Robey , Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "The Matrix" screensaver, v.0.2 In-Reply-To: <19990909125957.F86150@stumpy.dannyland.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, dannyman wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 1999 at 05:02:00PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Aug 1999, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > That very important... The screensaver triggered me to see the movie > > > again. Ahhhh. I love it. > > > > Yeah, it's gotta be the perfect hacker's movie. > > Sneakers is always fun. :) oh please... Hackers was the best: "Risc will change everything..." "Yeah Risc is good..." "Joey, if you 'dude' me one more time i'm going to smack the sh*t out of you!" oh and: "Brain? Cancer? Brain cancer???" lol good soundtrack as well. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 15:32: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1220714ECE for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA18352; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:31:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAe6aiNJ; Thu Sep 9 15:30:54 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15239; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:31:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909092231.PAA15239@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:31:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: walton@nordicrecords.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000001befa71$c3920e10$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Sep 8, 99 08:16:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'll just nod politely and pretend I understood that. :) > > Your examples of SleepyCat and Sendmail don't seem to quite fit > > the question. They are derivitive work, not unmodified code. But I'll > > take your word for it. > > Legally, pretty much the only difference between a derivitave work and the > original work is the person who did the deriviation might have rights to the > derivative work. All you have to do is change every space to two spaces and > you have made a derived work. The rights of the original copyright holder to > the derived work are precisely the same as to the original work. Please see: http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q48 | 48. How much do I have to change in my own work to make a new claim | of copyright? | | You may make a new claim in your work if the changes are substantial | and creative -- something more than just editorial changes or minor | changes. This would qualify as a new derivative work. For instance, | simply making spelling corrections throughout a work does not warrant | a new registration -- adding an additional chapter would. See Circular | 14 for further information. | | 49. How much do I have to change in order to claim copyright in someone | else's work? | | Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or | to authorize someone else to create a new version of that work. | Accordingly, you cannot claim copyright to another's work, no matter | how much you change it, unless you have the owner's consent. See | Circular 14. Circular 14 is a publication of the United States Copyright Office, and covers "Copyright Registration for Derivative Works". It is a 4 page PDF document, which can be obtained from: http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ14.pdf One of the things it clearly states is: | COPYRIGHT PROTECTION IN A DERIVATIVE WORK | | The copyright in a derivative work covers only the additions, | changes, or other new material appearing for the first time in the | work. It does not extend to any preexisting material and does not | imply a copyright in that material. | | One cannot extend the length of protection for a copyrighted | work by creating a derivative work. A work that has fallen into | the public domain, that is, which is no longer protected by | copyright, may be used for a derivative work, but the copyright in | the derivative work will not restore the copyright of the public | domain material. Neither will it prevent anyone else from using | the same public domain work for another derivative work. | | In any case where a protected work is used unlawfully, that | is, without the permission of the owner of the copyright, | copyright will not be extended to the illegally used part. Aside: Note the semantic value of the words "using" and "used" in the above; they are clearly in conflict with the word "use" and its derivatives as it appears in the text of the GPL. Note that both Linux and FreeBSD are probably in legal violation of Section 407 of title 17 of US code at this point, unless there has been a specific effort on the part of the projects to comply with the mandatory deposit regulation within 3 month of each publication. See: http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q12 http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ07d.pdf Also see: Deposit Regulation 96 202.19 (no URL). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 16:37: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587AB150AF for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08398; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:35:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAR7aytq; Thu Sep 9 16:35:33 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA19341; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:36:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909092336.QAA19341@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Market share and platform support To: unfurl@dub.net (Bill Swingle) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:36:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990909020107.E42659@dub.net> from "Bill Swingle" at Sep 9, 99 02:01:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Being an employee of WC and working solely on FreeBSD, I have first hand > knowledge. The relationship is very simple. We give them a release > schedule so that they know when to expect to be able to replicate/sell > new products and in return they support us financially by paying for > things like trips to trade shows, and ethernet cards for Bill Paul :) > That's it. The picture you paint of Walnut Creek CDROM as the looming > business holding Jordan and the FreeBSD project's puppet strings is > absurd and miles from the truth. I think the issue that is sticky is who controls the trademark registration, and who is allowed to use the trademark, and in what way? Historically, things have been pretty lax, since CheapBytes hasn't had any problems. The largest risk they have using the trademark without permission is needing to pay their profits to whoever has the trademark, and then cease and desist. I think that if someone is throwing a lot of money at a FreeBSD distribution without additional means of income, they'd want some form of letter of consent from the trademark holder. CheapBytes might have one of these, unless the trademark holder is content to allow the trademark to fall into "common use", since there is a legal requirement to defend trademarks in order to keep them. I'm not sure whether the trademark holder is Walnut Creek CDROM, or FreeBSD, Inc.; my guess would be the latter. Given the obvious love between Brett and Jordan... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 16:49:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8736E14C58 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwalton@acm.org) Received: (qmail 26416 invoked by alias); 9 Sep 1999 23:49:08 -0000 Message-ID: <19990909234907.26407.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 26381 invoked from network); 9 Sep 1999 23:49:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 9 Sep 1999 23:49:07 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: Brett Glass , "David Schwartz" , , , Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:46:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19990909035742.0473d2c0@localhost> References: <000001befa71$c3920e10$021d85d1@youwant.to> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Sep 99, at 4:02, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:16 PM 9/8/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > >The rights of the original copyright holder to > >the derived work are precisely the same as to the original work. > > Not quite. The original copyright holder can't publish the derivative work > without permission from the person or person(s) who introduced new > material. But if they use the same license you did, then you have just as much right to publish a derivative of their work as they have to publish a derivative of your work. > > This is one of the traps inherent in the GPL. If you publish GPLed > code, and someone else modifies it and publishes an enhanced version, your > original code may now be obsolete. But you don't have the right to do what > you want with the improved code unless the person who improved it grants > you that right. You have as much right the other person's improvements as they had to your code. > Since the new contributor is likely to embrace the GPL's > anti-commercial ethos, it's unlikely that he will grant you the right to > sell the updated version for money. In a sense, your code has "run away" > from you. I was going to dispute this, but I went and re-read the GPL first. You do have a point, in a sense. Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 18:12:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C924150A7 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:12:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11436; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:45:06 CDT." <199909091545.KAA27600@free.pcs> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:12:21 -0700 Message-ID: <11433.936925941@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In article you write: > >hair on your investor's balding heads. If you do us wrong, however, > >then we'll go after you with barbeque forks and we don't need to be > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Hm. What happened to your standard FreeBSD issued trident? They kill too quickly. Some people we like to send out more slowly and painfully. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 18:15:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FF91548A for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11465; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:31:45 CDT." <199909091531.KAA27521@free.pcs> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:15:07 -0700 Message-ID: <11462.936926107@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Also, based on your prior arguments, you seem to be arguing things > both ways. Either a lot of the credit for increased FreeBSD popularity > is due to Jordan (who is working the trade shows and popular press), or > it is actually due to you (working behind the scenes), in which case > Jordan's efforts are irrelevant. If the latter is the case, why are you > so damned worried about his actions? This is an excellent point, and well argued. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 18:26: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC26F152B3; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11580; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:25:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Nik Clayton Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 08:18:27 BST." <19990909081827.A39602@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:25:22 -0700 Message-ID: <11576.936926722@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FWIW, and from this side of the pond, Brett's raised a couple of interesting > points re: Walnut Creek and their 'control' of FreeBSD, and what would happen > if, hypothetically, some other group were to put together a competing > distribution, and these points have occasionally cropped up at UK User That's already happened several times, with CheapBytes, "Turbo FreeBSD" (a Pacific HiTech product) and the combined BSD distributions from InfoMagic. In all cases, Walnut Creek CDROM's response was to do nothing whatsoever because the competition wasn't quite direct enough to worry about. Had it been direct enough to worry about, I'm sure they'd have done something like lower their prices or seek to differentiate their product in other ways. Again, competition within the lines of the BSD license has always been allowed and Walnut Creek CDROM is a business, after all. What they would do in every conceivable situation is, of course, impossible to say. All I can do is point to what they've done in the past and their conviction that FreeBSD should stay free. Nobody wants to shoot the golden goose! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 19:35: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B630915BE7 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuck@research.att.com) Received: from alliance.research.att.com (alliance.research.att.com [135.207.26.26]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC33B4CE02 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chips-ha.research.att.com (chips-ha.research.att.com [135.207.27.139]) by alliance.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16890 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by chips-ha.research.att.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA75633 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19990909223452.A1277061@research.att.com> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:34:52 -0400 From: Chuck Cranor To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: CFP2000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Organization: AT&T Labs-Research Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings- I'm on the program committee for the Computers, Freedom, and Privacy 2000 conference (CFP2000). This year the program committee is interested in getting more participation from the free software and hacker community. We would like to see more session proposals from technical folks who are interested in discussing or debating how their work impacts the world. If you are interested, please check out the CFP2000 web site to learn more (http://www.cfp2000.org). If you are unfamiliar with CFP you might want to check out Bruce Sterling's description of it (http://lonestar.texas.net/~dub/crack4i.html). This year the conference will be held in Toronto, Canada on April 4-7th. One of the nice things about CFP is that you don't have to write a paper to participate --- all you need is an issue that you think would be of interest to the community (e.g. open source, security bug disclosure, crypto policy, etc.). All presenters will get free conference registration, in addition travel grants may be available. Chuck Cranor AT&T Labs-Research To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:25:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89CC15396 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:25:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17886; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:24:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909210827.04706dc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:34:10 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <8627.936873473@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:37 AM 9/9/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >.... What I said, >in no uncertain terms, was that I'd try to spike the guns of any >effort I felt to be of harm to the project and that's my *personal >stance* on this, one which I hold entirely separate from Walnut Creek >CDROM and would still hold if I resigned tomorrow and saw a predatory >or otherwise harmful 3rd party attempting to do the project harm. >Don't you get it? I don't need to be affiliated with Walnut Creek >CDROM to diss or "spike" a bad product, and if you and your cronies >were to come out with, say, "FreeBSD Ultra L33T CrackOS 10000 - A >custom OS specializing in sniffing and penetration of secure networks" >well then I doubt you'd get any of us over at FreeBSD central going >"wow, this is good stuff, let's help them promote it!" No, what we'd >we'd probably be doing is going "Aieee!! Disavow all knowledge! >Write angry denouncement!" and I'd be right in there with them, going >"aieee!" too. That's what I mean by spiking a product. Angry denouncements are fine. But preventing the use of the code would not be OK, IMHO, even in that case. After all, even the Evil Microsoft Empire uses some BSD code (from which version, I'm not sure). The term "Spiking the guns" implies sabotage intended to do serious harm, not just a denouncement. >Now if you don't do nasty, evil things to the project (though your >past lack of success in "winning friends and influencing enemies" does >make me particularly paranoid where that scenario is concerned) then >you've got nothing to worry about, we're not going to ruffle one grey >hair on your investor's balding heads. Ironically, the only places I have NOT universally won friends and been extremely successful at evangelism (I don't do "enemies") are two: among the Linux/GPL zealots and among certain members of these mailing lists. And only a few of the latter have spoken up; they just tend to be noisy. In any case, I have no intention of harming the FreeBSD project. (I wouldn't mind taking some projects that use malicious licenses down a peg or two via conscious-raising and aggressive competition, but that's another matter.) The entire intent of the messages I post here is, in fact, to help it -- despite the mortal fear of success that some folks here seem to exhibit. > If you do us wrong, however, >then we'll go after you with barbeque forks and we don't need to be >employed by anyone in particular to do that as FreeBSD project >members! Maybe. But no matter how evil I was, the code should -- in fact, MUST -- remain free and open. Currently, the way things are structured, Walnut Creek could repudiate the BSD licensing of anything that one of its employees wrote on company time. All they have to say is, "We didn't give the employee permission to release the code under that license." This is a flaw in the current arrangement that really OUGHT to be remedied -- perhaps by having Walnut Creek pay you through FreeBSD, Inc. or as a consultant. Then, a contract could govern ownership of copyrights. >Something else to consider is that Walnut Creek CDROM is a business >which is also always free to do derived FreeBSD products of its own to >make money and help keep the doors open. Of course. >If you guys start doing >something which competes directly with Walnut Creek CDROM's current or >planned product line then don't be surprised if they make competetive >moves of their own. I'd rather see them carry the product and make a good markup, as they do with other products. But that'd be their choice, of course. > As an employee of that company, I also may very >well help them to do so, and all within the bounds of the BSD license. >Just as you can. All of your engineers can hack away on some >proprietary or even open-source (with some "understandable lag") >solution in an effort to add value to FreeBSD and make your "pro" >product more attractive and Walnut Creek CDROM can too (though it's >traditionally open-sourced all of its non-DOS tools). I'm not going >to give you assurances that Walnut Creek CDROM won't behave like the >business that it is, sheesh, that would be nothing less than a lie >anyway! Creating an enhanced version is all well and good. But Walnut Creek should not use the fact that you're its employee to undue advantage, or to hinder the release of competitive distributions. It can, you know. That's why we have one investor who is opting strongly for OpenBSD over FreeBSD still. He believes that, on the FreeBSD playing field, Walnut Creek would have an insurmountable advantage because it employs you. The others are concerned, too. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:25:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB5261537D for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:25:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17889; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:24:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909213006.046fd350@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 21:33:13 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990909020227.045a31b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:56 AM 9/9/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >And you wonder why people resort to name calling. Yes, I do. Some of the observations I'm making may not be all sweetness and light, but then, if they were, they wouldn't be useful contributions. Things improve when you observe what's wrong and do something about it. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:26: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130B9153B0 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17897; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:24:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:31:09 -0600 To: Jonathan Lemon , chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-Reply-To: <199909091542.KAA27568@free.pcs> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:42 AM 9/9/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Let's _NOT_ suppose that. It's just plain stupid. You seem to forget >that Jordan is not the sole custodian of FreeBSD. Such a license would >absolutely never be able to enter the CVS tree, the global committer >community would never allow it. It wouldn't have to allow it. All WC would need to do is assert its legal right to its employees' work, and it would own code in the tree. And could license it however it wanted. I seem to recall a lawsuit by a large telephone company in which there was a similar issue. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:26:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3871D153C1; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:26:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17911; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:24:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909222613.04712b80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:27:36 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nik Clayton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <11576.936926722@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:25 PM 9/9/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >All I can do >is point to what [Walnut Creek has] done in the past and their conviction that >FreeBSD should stay free. Nobody wants to shoot the golden goose! No, but they might try to keep anyne else from getting any eggs. It is in the interest of FreeBSD to make sure that this is not possible. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:26:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C535215449 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:26:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17908; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:24:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909221631.04715930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:24:05 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , unfurl@dub.net (Bill Swingle) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909092336.QAA19341@usr06.primenet.com> References: <19990909020107.E42659@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:36 PM 9/9/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >I think the issue that is sticky is who controls the trademark >registration, and who is allowed to use the trademark, and in >what way? That's sure one issue. As I've mentioned earlier, there should be a clear, unambiguous statement about this posted prominently on the FreeBSD Web site. It should say something like: Trademark Policy The trademark FreeBSD (hereinafter, "the Mark") is the property of . grants to all comers a perpetual, irrevocable right to use the Mark to advertise related products, services, and derivative works, without charge, provided that the following conditions are met: owns the mark> >Historically, things have been pretty lax, since CheapBytes hasn't >had any problems. The largest risk they have using the trademark >without permission is needing to pay their profits to whoever has >the trademark, and then cease and desist. > >I think that if someone is throwing a lot of money at a FreeBSD >distribution without additional means of income, they'd want some >form of letter of consent from the trademark holder. I would. >Given the obvious love between Brett and Jordan... 8-). I bear no animus against Jordan. I disagree with some of his marketing strategies and priorities, and think that his influence over the project, coupled with these, may have hurt FreeBSD. But as I've said many times before, disagreement is fine. I disagree with my wife on some issues, too, and we still have a wonderful, loving relationship. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:26:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC4A1537D; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:25:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17893; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:24:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909213518.046fe100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:06:24 -0600 To: Jonathan Lemon , chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-Reply-To: <199909091531.KAA27521@free.pcs> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:31 AM 9/9/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Sorry to jump in here, but an objective (outside) opinion might >be useful: They generally are. >Brett, do your research. This has already been done, so there is >already a precedent. CheapBytes sells a FreeBSD distribution, you >don't see WC jumping all over them? Pacific HiTech too, although >I think they are now part of (or affilated with) WC. But these are low-key and not major enhancements. What happens when someone does a Red Hat or Caldera on FreeBSD? >I can't exactly see what you're after here. The license on the FreeBSD >code proper says nothing about WC. True. But they control resources that are vital to the project. > The fact that they employ several committers is irrelevant. No, it's not. If they create code for FreeBSD on company time, then WC owns that code. >What it sounds like you're asking is: > > 1. "I want to go off and do my own distribution based on FreeBSD". > 2. "I want assurance that FreeBSD Inc. will not undercut or discredit me". > >As far as I can tell, you don't need permission to do #1. Maybe, maybe not. Who owns the FreeBSD trademark? Do I need permission to use it? If so, can Walnut Creek influence whether or not I can use it? >#2 isn't >reasonable. Anybody who gives you a blanket assurance like that is >either lying or needs their head examined. Your business will succeed >or fail on its own merits. It strongly smells to me like you're fishing >for a "non-compete" agreeement. No, I'm fishing -- no, asking -- for a "non-sabotage" agreement. Fair competition isn't a problem; it spurs all the competitors to do better. Unfair competition could be a BIG problem here. Unfortunately, the nature of the relationship between the FreeBSD project, FreeBSD, Inc., and Walnut Creek -- and the fact that primary developers are WC employees -- makes it all too easy for WC to leverage its situation. This may be the reason why there are no seriously enhanced alternative distributions now. >Also, based on your prior arguments, you seem to be arguing things >both ways. Either a lot of the credit for increased FreeBSD popularity >is due to Jordan (who is working the trade shows and popular press), Some of it is. But some of it is the "rising tides floats all boats" effect; some of it is due to my work behind the scenes; and some of it is due to the work of others. >or >it is actually due to you (working behind the scenes), in which case >Jordan's efforts are irrelevant. Just because my efforts may be effective (which I think they are), why would that render what Jordan does irrelevant? It isn't a black-and-white, either/or situation. > If the latter is the case, why are you so damned worried about his >actions? Because, as nominal project leader, he dictates many of the memes which surround FreeBSD. And these memes are not as hardy as those of Linux, leading to negative consequences which I've discussed elsewhere. This needs to change even to achieve some of Jordan's goals. >And don't wave that "But Jordan tells people that FreeBSD is for servers, >and I want to target the desktop; I want him to stop saying that!" argument >at me. I wasn't going to bring up that particular issue, but in fact it is a problem. As Stewart Alsop correctly observed in the Senate Judicial Committee hearings about a year ago, people want to run one (count it) operating environment in their businesses, in their homes, everywhere. And for good reason: support is easier and more readily available, your OS knowledge and experience goes farther, and there's no need to switch "modes." That's one reason why companies and many individuals are adopting Windows NT, even though they know it's slow and riddled with bugs and security holes. FreeBSD must be eminently usable on the desktop as well as on the server, or it won't meet this important need. Fortunately, it's close to being so. But if Jordan, the nominal project leader, says it isn't, he's harming the project and the product more than *I* ever could. > From a business perspective, this should be considered a good thing. >It allows you to carve out your own niche, and have a strong selling point >which allows you to differentiate yourself from the other (WC) distribution. Trouble is, if my product is a distribution of FreeBSD, and Jordan as principal developer of FreeBSD disses FreeBSD as a desktop OS, it would become a big strike AGAINST the product I'd be selling. >In short: > > 1. You don't need permission or endorsements from FreeBSD, Inc. It's likely that I need permission to use the trademark. Unless this is already given via a blanket public announcement that says, "You may use this trademark if..." I've seen no such announcement so far, but if it does not exist it should. > 2. WC cannot stand in your way. If you want assurances that they > won't compete with you, you won't get it. See above regarding the difference between competition and sabotage. >Is this a fair summary? I've commented on the points which I didn't thing were accurate. >In closing, I'll note that you don't necessarily need support or goodwill >from Jordan to succeed. Take a look at Etinc, for example. I don't know much about them. Can you elaborate? In any event, while I don't need support from Jordan, it'd be nice at least to be collegial. And I *do* need assurances that success won't cause WC to sabotage my ability to do a distribution. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:26:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D6F153AD; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:26:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17905; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:24:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990909221237.04738870@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:16:18 -0600 To: Nik Clayton , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990909081827.A39602@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: <7196.936853710@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> <7196.936853710@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:18 AM 9/9/99 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: >Could you do us a favour, and get on the phone to one another, or something, >and sort this out? Probably a good idea. >FWIW, and from this side of the pond, Brett's raised a couple of interesting >points re: Walnut Creek and their 'control' of FreeBSD, and what would happen >if, hypothetically, some other group were to put together a competing >distribution, and these points have occasionally cropped up at UK User >Group meetings. I know I'd like to know what WCs official stance on this >is. So would I. What's more, things should be set up in a way that makes it difficult for WC to renege. Making sure that the FreeBSD project is more independent of WC, and that the project leaders are not employees of WC but rather independent contractors (for copyright purposes, this is important) would be good places to start. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:32:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDA81583C for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA14956; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 02:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 02:31:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990909213006.046fd350@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:56 AM 9/9/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > >And you wonder why people resort to name calling. > > Yes, I do. Some of the observations I'm making may not be all > sweetness and light, but then, if they were, they wouldn't be useful > contributions. Things improve when you observe what's wrong and do > something about it. People resort to calling you names because in the end its far less stressful to throw insults at you than to try and hold a reasonable conversation with you. I think you'd find that more people would be interested in what you have to say if you tried correcting the flaws in your communication skills, especially those relating to conversation (you know, where more than 1 person is talking). A review of the rules governing the varieties of formal debate might be useful as well. Nothing personal. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:33: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2546B15DB1 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05439; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:01:45 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990910160145:656=_"; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:01:45 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Jonathan Lemon Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990910160145:656=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 10-Sep-99 Brett Glass wrote: > It wouldn't have to allow it. All WC would need to do is assert its legal > right to its employees' work, and it would own code in the tree. And > could license it however it wanted. Except a sizeable amount of code is contributed by other people who aren't employees. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990910160145:656=_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBN9il0VbYW/HEoF9pAQHdPwP/V7eMwYU7NCgBRpih6qYWEi1oiU7UWh5W rUO8lRSMvXq7wNt4mzFE7T50Ychs/A7zwStCmMwtfWZtqiaWxpC6oGUD1CpHE8kT iQpt4KFKxnbHzCjdrpwT9HvA+1OvTll/Y3EzBF0it+n9R6svWVkMf3FIo0Qt3LqE PXR5WFVelTk= =dxkj -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990910160145:656=_-- End of MIME message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:44:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E6C15258 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:44:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.51]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAF59A2; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:44:05 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA71514; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:43:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:43:41 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof Message-ID: <19990910084341.J71369@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990908211304.046462a0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990909020227.045a31b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990909020227.045a31b0@localhost> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) [990909 13:14]: >At 12:48 AM 9/9/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > >>Well, you didn't say advocacy strategies, you said 'contributors to the >>code base', so changing arguements here isn't going to work. > >I'm not "changing arguments;" I'm making two distinct points. First, >contributions to the code base are impeded by ego, territoriality, >and elitism. Second, contributions that DON'T involve code are >considered to be second-rate, even if they're needed very bit as >much as code. You haven't been paying attention have you? 1) You _do_ either switch arguments or start rambling off about something completely different and totally unrelated to the question asked or a statement made. 2) Where do you get the ridiculous idea that non-code submissions are second-rate? I don't consider -doc to be coders, they do things on a totally other level and on a level which I value as much as code being put in by, for example, a Matthew, Alfred, Brian, Peter, Dag-Erling, Bruce, to name but a few. Nik, Neil, Mike, Chris and a few other -doc guys have my respect for their efforts and they prolyl know it. They earned it by chipping in their expertise. The same goes for what Dan Langille, Jim Mock and now a couple of others are doing with their supportive (Free)BSD websites. They also have my respect. With all the respect for what you did in the past I have not seen anything from you since early January, not even the tiniest pr or otherwise a constructive piece of whatever except constantly debating what the future will be like on either -advocacy or -chat. If we were all like you as you are on this point, then, aye, the FreeBSD Project would be dead. However, we chose NOT to be like you and we're thriving. Have a nice day Brett and stop make us wasting our time to time and again point out your silliness in the statements you tend to make. [and if you wonder why I don't reply when you reply, it's simply because I have things to do which I consider more important] -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best A frightened mental vortex we will be, a Sun we seek, a Sun we flee... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 9 23:44:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E0D1539E; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:44:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.51]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAI59A2; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:44:08 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA71504; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:34:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:34:03 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Anders Andersson Cc: Greg Lehey , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Eivind Eklund , cjc26@cornell.edu, Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recipies [was Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars calendar.history] Message-ID: <19990910083403.I71369@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199908091607.LAA23828@free.pcs> <19990810012303.I99680@bitbox.follo.net> <19990810090943.N31076@freebie.lemis.com> <19990810180558.F31076@freebie.lemis.com> <19990909114958.A6445@enterprise.sanyusan.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <19990909114958.A6445@enterprise.sanyusan.se> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Anders Andersson (anders@sanyusan.se) [990909 13:14]: >* Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) [990810 10:33]: >> >> A number of Swedish friends have told me that in work contracts in >> Stockholm round the (last) turn of the century there were undertakings >> on the part of the company that the canteen would serve something else >> than salmon at least one day a week. > >Nowadays some people want to put in work contracts to have >salmon served at least once a week :-) Yikes ;) How times change... Btw, what ever happened to freebsd-recipes? -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best And every word upon your spiraling cross is but a misled sun, a bitter loss... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 8: 7: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1119A151ED; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:06:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24371; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:06:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990909213518.046fe100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > It's likely that I need permission to use the trademark. Unless this > is already given via a blanket public announcement that says, "You may > use this trademark if..." I've seen no such announcement so far, but > if it does not exist it should. I hope to god you need permission to use the 'FreeBSD' trademark, and if Walnut Creek is the ones to fund and forward the legal bitch-slapping should you use it without permission I only hope that the effort doesn't hurt them financially and that you have to pawn your computer to cover the damages. I don't think anyone is telling you that you can't take the source and run with it. Taking the source and trying to market it as 'Ultra Mega FreeBSD 2000' would only serve to confuse public perception of the 'FreeBSD' brand, and would be, IMHO, a step back for the actual FreeBSD project. Calling yourself 'Ultra Mega BSD2000' or something and having a note that said "Based on the FreeBSD Operating System." would likely satisfy all parties. Why the hell would you want to leach on the poor PR that 'FreeBSD' has in the first place? By your noise it would be better for you to rely on your own superior marketing and PR strategies and focus them on a distinctive brand name. BrettBSD maybe? -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 8: 8:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A499C15097 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21601; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:07:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910084750.0479a540@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:07:43 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990910084341.J71369@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990909020227.045a31b0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990908211304.046462a0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990909020227.045a31b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:43 AM 9/10/99 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >2) Where do you get the ridiculous idea that non-code submissions are > second-rate? From comments I've seen on this list and in private e-mail. "Where are your PRs?" they say. "So-and-so speaks with authority about advocacy because he has contributed lots of code." (Never mind the obvious non sequitur here.) My articles on UNIX, and sometimes specifically about FreeBSD, carry little or no weight with this group. Now, the fact is that I *do* hack code, and would contribute except for one thing: I'm primarily an assembly language hacker. I dislike the C language -- whose syntax I believe to be cryptic. I believe that its design encourages coding errors such as buffer overflows and is largely responsible for the poor quality and lax security of most code today. I write in it only when I must. So, I'm probably not the best person to contribute C code to the project. Alas, a large number of people in this group genuinely base their appraisal of, and respect for, others on how many lines of C they've added to FreeBSD. This is a mistake, as proper marketing, promotion, advocacy, and memetics are what the OS now cries out for most. Documentation, while important (which I as writer value more than most) is likewise useful but not the key issue right now. > With all the respect for what you did in the past I have > not seen anything from you since early January, Have you even bothered to look? >not even the tiniest > pr or otherwise a constructive piece of whatever except constantly > debating what the future will be like on either -advocacy or -chat. The issues I've raised about the future are, IMHO, THE most important thing to FreeBSD. The code is already superior to most of what's out there. While there's certainly lots of work to be done, it is other things that endanger FreeBSD's future. The above comment very much reflects the "Where are your PRs?" attitude I've already mentioned. Even if you broaden this to include documentation -- as I've mentioned, I have a lot of respect for documentors -- it's not what is most important now. PRs currently matter less than PR. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 8:55: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D7314EA1; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:54:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22096; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:54:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910090822.0479c6a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:54:20 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990909213518.046fe100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 AM 9/10/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >I hope to god you need permission to use the 'FreeBSD' trademark, and if >Walnut Creek is the ones to fund and forward the legal bitch-slapping >should you use it without permission I only hope that the effort doesn't >hurt them financially and that you have to pawn your computer to cover the >damages. Thank you for your support. >I don't think anyone is telling you that you can't take the source and run >with it. Taking the source and trying to market it as 'Ultra Mega FreeBSD >2000' would only serve to confuse public perception of the 'FreeBSD' >brand, and would be, IMHO, a step back for the actual FreeBSD project. FreeBSD is not the "brand" of Walnut Creek's distribution; it's the name of the development project. If Walnut Creek is the only company which is allowed to use the name "FreeBSD" on its distribution of the OS, then it is being accorded an unfair advantage. This would vindicate concerns that Walnut Creek has an exclusive relationship with the FreeBSD project that precludes competition, and/or has too much control over the project and its output. It would also be problematic if a person or committee could "pick and choose" who got to use the name. This would fly in the face of the BSD philosophy. (It would even rankle those who subscribe to the much more restrictive GPL agenda.) The only appropriate policy is to set simple, straightforward, published conditions for the use of the trademark by anyone who chooses to create a distribution, an add-on product (e.g. "Joe's Nifty FreeBSD Tools"), or a publication (e.g. "The Super Mega FreeBSD Bonanza Web Site"). The permission granted via this policy should be perpetual and irrevocable so long as the conditions in force at the time of first use are met (i.e., no changing the rules after someone has committed the resources required to create a product). >I don't think anyone is telling you that you can't take the source and run >with it. Taking the source and trying to market it as 'Ultra Mega FreeBSD >2000' would only serve to confuse public perception of the 'FreeBSD' >brand, and would be, IMHO, a step back for the actual FreeBSD project. > >Calling yourself 'Ultra Mega BSD2000' or something and having a note that >said "Based on the FreeBSD Operating System." would likely satisfy all >parties. Walnut Creek CD-ROM's distribution simply says "FreeBSD" on the front. Why should Walnut Creek be the only company which is entitled to do this? Any restriction which requires publishers to call a distribution "BlobWare FreeBSD" should apply to Walnut Creek as well. >Why the hell would you want to leach on the poor PR that 'FreeBSD' has in >the first place? There's a concept, not totally alien to the BSD world, known as "giving credit." Also, using the name "FreeBSD" helps to make it clear that the product is designed to run native binaries compiled for FreeBSD -- important if we want to encourage the development and publication of such products. It also ensures that the product's installed base is counted in surveys of FreeBSD's installed base. This is important to FreeBSD's reputation and, again, to generate market share numbers that encourage ports and support. This helps the entire FreeBSD community. Imagine what would happen to Linux's market share and installed base figures if sales of Red Hat, Caldera, SuSE, Debian, Mandrake, etc. weren't aggregated. Linux would be going nowhere fast. This would be an awful trap for FreeBSD to fall into: it amounts to a forking of PR even without a code fork. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 9: 2: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82BBF15CF2 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:01:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21865; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:01:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:01:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910084750.0479a540@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My try at rational behavior (without getting irate) follows.... :-) On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:43 AM 9/10/99 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > From comments I've seen on this list and in private e-mail. "Where > are your PRs?" they say. "So-and-so speaks with authority about > advocacy because he has contributed lots of code." (Never mind the > obvious non sequitur here.) Um, PRs work fine for all kinds of problem reports, be they docs, ports, web page errors/corrections/additions, or source code. No one, except you, is suggesting, that PRs are solely code submissions. I personally would trade two to three pieces of code for one good piece of documentation. Not to slight anyone else on the docs list (or coders), but I _always_ enjoy Nik's writing. Nik has done a number of great articles on make and CVS for Daemon News. They are great. And I personally know 5 people who learned how to start using CVS from Nik's Daemon News article. All of them are _NOT_ using it for code, but for writing their PhD theses or web pages and keeping track of various versions, changes by their committee members etc. Has Nik submitted any C code? Not that I know of. Is he a valuable member of the team? Holy cow yes! > My articles on UNIX, and sometimes specifically about FreeBSD, carry > little or no weight with this group. Actually I've always liked your articles. The articles you've written have been even-handed and well written. They've also been enjoyable and informative. That said, when you get into personal conversations, whether it be here or in other places (typically feedback areas) you seem to be an entirely different person than the person who writes those articles. > Alas, a large number of people in this group genuinely base their > appraisal of, and respect for, others on how many lines of C they've > added to FreeBSD. This is a mistake, as proper marketing, promotion, > advocacy, and memetics are what the OS now cries out for most. > Documentation, while important (which I as writer value more than > most) is likewise useful but not the key issue right now. If you think documentation doesn't affect user base you're wrong. Is it the key element? Probably not, but I know of people who've left groups because they could not find documentation to do what they wanted. > > With all the respect for what you did in the past I have > > not seen anything from you since early January, > > Have you even bothered to look? Yes - I'm the co-editor of Daemon News and I'm always looking for links or blurbs to put up about any article about any of the BSDs. In the past 9 months I haven't heard of any articles from you and we get news submissions that report articles from purely print magazines too. We've had a number of news items about BSD articles which came to us from the print version of C'T (which were never released on the web). So no - I haven't heard anything and I have looked. If you could tell me some of them I would like to read them. Heck if they're recent we could even add them to the news items for the next issue - even if they're a month or 2 old we could put them in - libraries keep back issues so surely some people could read them there. If, as you believe, PR is more important than PRs I suggest you write something for Daemon News (since we at present are the only BSD zine I know of that is active now, what with the much lamented break of FreeBSD'zine which I always enjoyed reading). Will this gain you PR? Sure - we got 90,000 hits the first day of the last issue, mostly from SlashDot announcements about us. We have contracts with 2 different Japanese companies for print versions of the ezine or articles from it and we had (not sure of the status right now) interest from a publisher in the US about creating a print version. Admittedly Japan is already a FreeBSD hot bed, but we've gotten many emails from many people telling us that they were going to at least try one of the BSDs after reading articles on DN. Can we offer you mainstream, daily newspaper type, coverage? Not yet, but we can help get the grassroots areas going. It also may be a good "test bed" for you to try out your advocacy ideas which you've talked about previously. What I would like to see is the BSDs grow. That requires efforts in all areas - PR, coding, docs, etc. I write C code like I speak latin - not very well at all, but I do what I can. If you can write an article on how to do BSD advocacy for submission to DN we'd be glad to have it. Authors retain the copyright so you'd be set to publish it again and again in other places if you wanted to. Anyway, I think that there is room for more PR - I think Jordan is doing good work by doing what he's doing. Could more be done? Sure. Should more be done? Sure. Do we need people to do it? Sure. So go team! Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Co-editor in Chief brett@daemonnews.org * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 9:13:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E6E151C7 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22334; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:11:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910100243.047a0210@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:11:38 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: PRs for FreeBSD's meme complex Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990909213006.046fd350@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:31 AM 9/10/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >People resort to calling you names because in the end its far less >stressful to throw insults at you than to try and hold a reasonable >conversation with you. When one raises serious but difficult questions, it naturally causes some stress. But the questions DO need to be addressed. Think of my messages as PRs for FreeBSD's "meme complex" -- that is, for advocacy, marketing, culture, and other aspects of FreeBSD that don't consist solely of code and documentation. >I think you'd find that more people would be interested in what you have >to say if you tried correcting the flaws in your communication skills, I think you're confusing the message with the messenger. I don't believe that my communications skills are flawed at all; written communication is one of the things I do for a living, and my work is generally well regarded. If you do not agree with some of the opinions I express, or feel uncomfortable discussing some of the topics I've brought up, it does not mean that there's anything wrong with the way I communicate. >especially those relating to conversation (you know, where more than 1 >person is talking). > >A review of the rules governing the varieties of formal debate might be >useful as well. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, mailing lists are not subject to rules of formal debate. Certainly, I've had many ad hominem remarks lobbed at me -- including the message to which this is a response -- which would be out of line in such a debate. >Nothing personal. Of course. ;-) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 9:13:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C2015825 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22331; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:11:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910100024.047a4ce0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:01:50 -0600 To: "Daniel O'Connor" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Jonathan Lemon In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:01 PM 9/10/99 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: On 10-Sep-99 Brett Glass wrote: > > It wouldn't have to allow it. All WC would need to do is assert its legal > > right to its employees' work, and it would own code in the tree. And > > could license it however it wanted. > >Except a sizeable amount of code is contributed by other people who aren't >employees. You're right. But because Walnut Creek pays several employees to work full-time on FreeBSD, their contributions are substantial. Yank them -- or even some of them -- and production of an independent distribution becomes difficult or even infeasible. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 10:23:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B2E15824; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:23:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27004; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:23:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910090822.0479c6a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > FreeBSD is not the "brand" of Walnut Creek's distribution; it's the > name of the development project. If Walnut Creek is the only company > which is allowed to use the name "FreeBSD" on its distribution of the > OS, then it is being accorded an unfair advantage. This would > vindicate concerns that Walnut Creek has an exclusive relationship > with the FreeBSD project that precludes competition, and/or has too > much control over the project and its output. If you're doing something that isn't sanctioned by 'The FreeBSD Project', why do you think you should have the right to use the 'FreeBSD' trademark? From what it sounds like, you want to make a complete departure from the methods and manner of 'The FreeBSD Project' and produce something based on the 'FreeBSD Software'. While the use of the software isn't a problem, the use of the FreeBSD 'brand' with an effort that isn't 'FreeBSD' is. > It would also be problematic if a person or committee could "pick and > choose" who got to use the name. This would fly in the face of the > BSD philosophy. (It would even rankle those who subscribe to the much > more restrictive GPL agenda.) No, it wouldn't. The 'BSD' philosophy gives you the software, not the name. You're free to say 'contains FreeBSD' or 'based on FreeBSD' but marketing something as 'FreeBSD' without obtaining permissions is going to get you in trouble. I asked my roommate who is a Debian ('Linux') developer and he said that Debian is pretty much the same with regard to the use of the 'Debian' brand. I think the situation you are describing is fairly common, and in all likelihood, 'the norm' when it comes to trademarks and 'brand names'. Why you expect the 'FreeBSD Project' to allow you to do something against the Project's best interests is beyond me. We don't live the same world as you, that much is obvious. > The only appropriate policy is to set simple, straightforward, > published conditions for the use of the trademark by anyone who > chooses to create a distribution, an add-on product (e.g. "Joe's Nifty > FreeBSD Tools"), or a publication (e.g. "The Super Mega FreeBSD > Bonanza Web Site"). The permission granted via this policy should be > perpetual and irrevocable so long as the conditions in force at the > time of first use are met (i.e., no changing the rules after someone > has committed the resources required to create a product). Nope. The solution is for applictions for use of the trademark to be approved on a case by case basis and remain subject to revocation should the use of the trademark fall outside of the original terms of use. This is the way the rest of the world handles licensing issues. > Walnut Creek CD-ROM's distribution simply says "FreeBSD" on the front. > Why should Walnut Creek be the only company which is entitled to do > this? Any restriction which requires publishers to call a distribution > "BlobWare FreeBSD" should apply to Walnut Creek as well. Because Walnut Creek is given a CD master by 'The FreeBSD Project' and presses it out exactly as they receive it. I'd say the Project is pulling WC's strings not the other way around. If you'd like to produce an official FreeBSD distribution I'm sure that the release engineers would be more than happy to supply you with the masters and all the cover art. > >Why the hell would you want to leach on the poor PR that 'FreeBSD' has in > >the first place? > > There's a concept, not totally alien to the BSD world, known as > "giving credit." We're talking about PR, not about giving credit. The various licenses contained in the source require (in some cases) you to give credit. > Also, using the name "FreeBSD" helps to make it clear that the product > is designed to run native binaries compiled for FreeBSD -- important > if we want to encourage the development and publication of such > products. It also ensures that the product's installed base is counted > in surveys of FreeBSD's installed base. This is important to FreeBSD's > reputation and, again, to generate market share numbers that encourage > ports and support. This helps the entire FreeBSD community. Correct, but there is a difference b/t using the name 'FreeBSD' and pretending to be 'The FreeBSD'. > Imagine what would happen to Linux's market share and installed base > figures if sales of Red Hat, Caldera, SuSE, Debian, Mandrake, etc. > weren't aggregated. Linux would be going nowhere fast. This would be > an awful trap for FreeBSD to fall into: it amounts to a forking of PR > even without a code fork. They aren't aggregated. Software companies have settled on Red Hat as their target platform and everyone else has to accomodate them or risk not being able to run those applications. Your mistake is somehow thinking that the brandname 'FreeBSD' should work like the brandname 'Linux'. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 10:26:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC9D114FD8 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:26:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27113; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:26:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PRs for FreeBSD's meme complex In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910100243.047a0210@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > When one raises serious but difficult questions, it naturally causes > some stress. But the questions DO need to be addressed. Think of my > messages as PRs for FreeBSD's "meme complex" -- that is, for advocacy, > marketing, culture, and other aspects of FreeBSD that don't consist > solely of code and documentation. Its not your questions but your manner of discussing them in a conversation that is lacking. > >I think you'd find that more people would be interested in what you have > >to say if you tried correcting the flaws in your communication skills, > > I think you're confusing the message with the messenger. I don't > believe that my communications skills are flawed at all; written > communication is one of the things I do for a living, and my work is > generally well regarded. If you do not agree with some of the opinions > I express, or feel uncomfortable discussing some of the topics I've > brought up, it does not mean that there's anything wrong with the way > I communicate. In this case, the messenger (you) is making it difficult to discuss the message. > >A review of the rules governing the varieties of formal debate might be > >useful as well. > > Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, mailing lists are not subject to > rules of formal debate. Certainly, I've had many ad hominem remarks > lobbed at me -- including the message to which this is a response -- > which would be out of line in such a debate. "He did it first!" I'm talking about your inability to not go tangential the moment someone directly confronts one of your arguements. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 11:33: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9117B14E6D; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:32:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA58396; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37D94ECF.C8310539@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:32:47 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Nik Clayton , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support References: <7196.936853710@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> <7196.936853710@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990909221237.04738870@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > >FWIW, and from this side of the pond, Brett's raised a couple of interesting > >points re: Walnut Creek and their 'control' of FreeBSD, and what would happen > >if, hypothetically, some other group were to put together a competing > >distribution, and these points have occasionally cropped up at UK User > >Group meetings. I know I'd like to know what WCs official stance on this > >is. > > So would I. What's more, things should be set up in a way that makes it > difficult for WC to renege. Making sure that the FreeBSD project is > more independent of WC, and that the project leaders are not employees > of WC but rather independent contractors (for copyright purposes, this > is important) would be good places to start. > > --Brett Glass I've been glancing at this discussion for awhile and I don't claim to really be "up" with everything that's being discussed here, but I think I might be able to bring up a good ( hopefully ) example. From what I gather part ( most? ) of Brett's concern is to what degree does WC get involved if somebody else starts doing stuff with a FreeBSD distro. I see that Jordan has already given a response as what he personally feels about this and what WC would do, since they are a business. That being that if it was something he felt was good then he would help ( so would WC ) and if he felt it was bad then he would want nothing to do with and recommend others do the same ( I imagine that if WC felt it "hurt" them then they would react also ). In the end Brett felt that wasn't concrete enough. From what I tell however this senario has already happened. Correctly if I'm wrong but isn't this basically what NetMAX is doing? They have products based on both FreeBSD and Linux. If I'm correct here let me carry this out.... So what has Jordan done since NetMAX coming out? Personally I don't really know, however I can say I've never heard anything negative from him about it. For all I know he's said good things about it and I just don't know it. So I'd say that he's probably very happy with NetMAX and what they are doing with it ( although if I'm wrong I shouldn't be putting words in his mouth :-). However the second part also gives me reason to think he's in favor of it. What has WC done since NetMAX came out? THEY SELL IT! Not only have they not fought against it, they sell it at freebsdmall.com and I get flyers for it with just about every WC product I order. I'd say that's a pretty ringing endorsement. So what do we learn now? Well, if you want to do something based on FreeBSD you can pretty much do what you want. If you want to do something based on FreeBSD the "right and good way" then you should make friends with WC and not enemies, they obviously are interested in seeing FreeBSD derived works succeed. C'mon, do you think that Linux Mandrake and Red Hat hat eachother? If they were smart ( and I think this is the case ) then they are quite happy with the relationship of Mandrake selling "Red Hat" based products/distros. Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to make sure I made my point reasonably clear. I don't really want to become part of a flame war, but I thought it may be usefull to provide a real life example of what I think Brett is describing. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 11:54:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ABC115D52 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04163; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:53:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) id NAA12222; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:53:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990910135329.20960@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:53:30 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brett Glass Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support References: <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990910100024.047a4ce0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910100024.047a4ce0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sep 09, 1999 at 10:01:50AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 09, 1999 at 10:01:50AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:01 PM 9/10/99 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 10-Sep-99 Brett Glass wrote: > > > It wouldn't have to allow it. All WC would need to do is assert its legal > > > right to its employees' work, and it would own code in the tree. And > > > could license it however it wanted. > > > >Except a sizeable amount of code is contributed by other people who aren't > >employees. > > You're right. But because Walnut Creek pays several employees to work > full-time on FreeBSD, their contributions are substantial. Yank them > -- or even some of them -- and production of an independent distribution > becomes difficult or even infeasible. Yes, but this isn't limited to WC. What happens if I (or my employer) decides to "yank", as you put it, all the vm86 work? Is it even legal to do this? A solution might be to have all work expressly contributed to an entity similar to the "NetBSD Foundation", (see Rod Grimes latest postings somewhere). -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 11:55:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF98D15D79 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:54:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04177; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:54:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) id NAA12482; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:54:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990910135455.60884@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:54:55 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support References: <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sep 09, 1999 at 10:31:09PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 09, 1999 at 10:31:09PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:42 AM 9/9/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > >Let's _NOT_ suppose that. It's just plain stupid. You seem to forget > >that Jordan is not the sole custodian of FreeBSD. Such a license would > >absolutely never be able to enter the CVS tree, the global committer > >community would never allow it. > > It wouldn't have to allow it. All WC would need to do is assert its legal > right to its employees' work, and it would own code in the tree. And > could license it however it wanted. And the code would then be ripped out and re-implemented by the community at large. As has happened in the past, as well. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 12: 8:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668BA14A08 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:08:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:08:36 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , Subject: RE: Market share and platform support Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:08:36 -0700 Message-ID: <003101befbbf$e22bd000$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 10:42 AM 9/9/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > It wouldn't have to allow it. All WC would need to do is assert its legal > right to its employees' work, and it would own code in the tree. And > could license it however it wanted. > > I seem to recall a lawsuit by a large telephone company in which there > was a similar issue. Oh sure, all they'd have to do is deny having knowingly released it under the BSD license. "What those CDROMs we sold? We had no idea our employee's work was on them! And we had no idea they were under the BSD license!". Somehow, I can't imagine that argument being made with a straight face. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 12:11: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1AD415DAB; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04302; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:10:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) id OAA14808; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:10:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990910141053.25557@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:10:53 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support References: <4.2.0.58.19990909213518.046fe100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990909213518.046fe100@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sep 09, 1999 at 10:06:24PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 09, 1999 at 10:06:24PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:31 AM 9/9/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > >What it sounds like you're asking is: > > > > 1. "I want to go off and do my own distribution based on FreeBSD". > > 2. "I want assurance that FreeBSD Inc. will not undercut or discredit me". > > > >As far as I can tell, you don't need permission to do #1. > > Maybe, maybe not. Who owns the FreeBSD trademark? Do I need permission to > use it? If so, can Walnut Creek influence whether or not I can use it? Ah, now this is a different kettle of fish. FreeBSD, Inc. probably owns the mark, and they get to choose who they license it to. Additionally, (I may be wrong here) I seem to recall that BSDi owns the "BSD" mark, and the 3 BSD's (open/free/net) have a special dispensation from BSDI to use it. So, while the code may be free, the mark is not. This may definitely pose a problem, as to whether you are permitted to take the existing code base, make massive changes, and still call it ``FreeBSD-Foo''. > FreeBSD must be eminently usable on the desktop as well as on the server, or > it won't meet this important need. Fortunately, it's close to being so. But if > Jordan, the nominal project leader, says it isn't, he's harming the project > and the product more than *I* ever could. No, I don't recall Jordan ever saying that FreeBSD isn't suitable for the desktop. I recall him saying that FreeBSD is targeted to servers. There isn't anything wrong with this - it's basic marketing. If you want to attack a new segment, you can introduce a new product, (say FreeBSD-Desktop), and position this as the desktop solution. Or you can create a new brand (FreeLinux, based on the world-class FreeBSD server operating system, with the friendliness of Linux!), and position this brand at a new segment without fear that it will "pollute" the image of an existing brand. I see that Jordan is attempting to defend the "Brand Image" of FreeBSD, by refusing to associate with what he perceives as "rabid advocacy". Whether you agree or not is a moot point, as it should be acknowledged that he _is_ the brand manager for this particular distribution. > >In closing, I'll note that you don't necessarily need support or goodwill > >from Jordan to succeed. Take a look at Etinc, for example. > > I don't know much about them. Can you elaborate? ETinc makes bandwidth management products for FreeBSD. However, the owner does not appear to have a good relationship with Jordan, who has gone on record stating that he can't recommend them due to their customer support issues. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 12:22:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAAC1510B for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 164994283; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECD819C3E; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:22:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden Reply-To: Jamie Bowden To: "Daniel J. O'Connor" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-467241578-936991329=:2971" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-467241578-936991329=:2971 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Redirected to -chat. On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Daniel J. O'Connor wrote: : :On 10-Sep-99 Jamie Bowden wrote: :> :Umm.. welll I'd like to know to enable sub folder support in it then.. :> :Haveing multiple accounts on different machines would be nice too (then it :> :could do what xfmail can) :> In 'Incoming Folders' type 'a' and it will ask you for the server name to :> add. : :I don't have an 'Incoming Folders' if I press A in 'Folder List' I get a :request for a folder name not a server name.. : :I'm about to try Pine 4.10 (I have 4.05) I'm taking this off -hackers. Here's what my pine 'List' screen looks like: PINE 3.96 FOLDER LIST mbox 168 Msgs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Incoming Message Folders -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- INBOX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Folder-collection ** Default for Saves ** (Local) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- sent-mail read-messages FreeBSD-chat FreeBSD-hackers FreeBSD-hardware FreeBSD-multimedia FreeBSD-sparc bay-isp bsdnet bugtraq gamers mbox rudenet usbdevel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- News-collection (Remote) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ? Help M Main Menu P PrevFldr - PrevPage D Delete R Rename O OTHER CMDS V [ViewFldr] N NextFldr Spc NextPage A Add The newsgroups don't show up due to being an 80x24 xterm, or you would see them too. In Incoming Folders, I can hit 'a' and see the following: PINE 3.96 FOLDER LIST mbox 168 Msgs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Incoming Message Folders -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- INBOX -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Folder-collection ** Default for Saves ** (Local) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- sent-mail read-messages FreeBSD-chat FreeBSD-hackers FreeBSD-hardware FreeBSD-multimedia FreeBSD-sparc bay-isp bsdnet bugtraq gamers mbox postponed-msgs rudenet usbdevel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- News-collection (Remote) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name of server to contain added folder : ^G Help ^C Cancel Ret Accept I could then add another server with IMAP. You may have to change a Main -> Setup -> Config option to get the above configuration. I've been carrying around my .pinerc for 5 years now. I've attached it for your viewing pleasure. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) --0-467241578-936991329=:2971 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name=".pinerc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: IyBVcGRhdGVkIGJ5IFBpbmUodG0pIDMuOTYsIGNvcHlyaWdodCAxOTg5LTE5 OTYgVW5pdmVyc2l0eSBvZiBXYXNoaW5ndG9uLg0KIw0KIyBQaW5lIGNvbmZp Z3VyYXRpb24gZmlsZSAtLSBjdXN0b21pemUgYXMgbmVlZGVkLg0KIw0KIyBU aGlzIGZpbGUgc2V0cyB0aGUgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBvcHRpb25zIHVzZWQg YnkgUGluZSBhbmQgUEMtUGluZS4gIElmIHlvdQ0KIyBhcmUgdXNpbmcgUGlu ZSBvbiBhIFVuaXggc3lzdGVtLCB0aGVyZSBtYXkgYmUgYSBzeXN0ZW0td2lk ZSBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uDQojIGZpbGUgd2hpY2ggc2V0cyB0aGUgZGVmYXVs dHMgZm9yIHRoZXNlIHZhcmlhYmxlcy4gIFRoZXJlIGFyZSBjb21tZW50cyBp bg0KIyB0aGlzIGZpbGUgdG8gZXhwbGFpbiBlYWNoIHZhcmlhYmxlLCBidXQg aWYgeW91IGhhdmUgcXVlc3Rpb25zIGFib3V0DQojIHNwZWNpZmljIHNldHRp bmdzIHNlZSB0aGUgc2VjdGlvbiBvbiBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uIG9wdGlvbnMg aW4gdGhlIFBpbmUNCiMgbm90ZXMuICBPbiBVbml4LCBydW4gcGluZSAtY29u 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10 Sep 1999 13:38:37 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Use of the name "FreeBSD" (Was: Market share and platform support) Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990910090822.0479c6a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:23 PM 9/10/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >If you're doing something that isn't sanctioned by 'The FreeBSD Project', >why do you think you should have the right to use the 'FreeBSD' trademark? Because playing favorites, and/or picking and choosing who can create a distribution that says "FreeBSD" on it, is every bit as inappropriate as it would be to pick and choose who could use the code. For the project to impose such a restriction would be unwise, as well, because it would make it more difficult for users to identify distributions of FreeBSD as such. This, in turn, will hurt both FreeBSD and new distributions. Right now, the FreeBSD.org Web site already favors Walnut Creek in that it does not mention Cheap Bytes as a source of CD-ROMs (see http://www.freeBSD.org/FAQ/preface.html#AEN26). This is troubling to anyone who might consider doing another distribution. > >From what it sounds like, you want to make a complete departure from the >methods and manner of 'The FreeBSD Project' and produce something based on >the 'FreeBSD Software'. Not so. The policy of the project, in keeping with the philosophy of the BSD license, should be to allow people to do what they will with the project's intellectual property without having to ask explicit permission. The conditions imposed on such use are minor: indemnification against liability for bugs and not claiming it as one's own work. To quote from the FAQ: "The goals of the FreeBSD Project are to provide software that may be used for any purpose and without strings attached." To insist that it not be called FreeBSD at all if it's published by someone other than one or more select publishers -- especially if the content is the same -- is certainly to attach some big strings and also to favor some over others. The one restriction that might be appropriate would be to require that the name "FreeBSD" not be used alone on a product which is sold by a third party. For example, Walnut Creek CD-ROM would be required to call its distribution "Walnut Creek FreeBSD" while Cheap Bytes would call theirs "Cheap Bytes FreeBSD." This is what is customarily done with Linux. To do so for FreeBSD would create a level playing field an protect the "naked" mark name by reserving its use for the project itself. >While the use of the software isn't a problem, >the use of the FreeBSD 'brand' with an effort that isn't 'FreeBSD' is. It wouldn't make sense to use the name "FreeBSD" unless the product had some relation to FreeBSD. But right now, it's even unclear who owns the mark, or if FreeBSD, Inc. has effectively abandoned it by failing to police its use and attribution. (A trademark is abandoned if there's confusion as to who owns it.) Several companies have DIFFERENT products called, simply, FreeBSD X.Y.Z. This creates confusion in the marketplace (the products are different and are made by different companies) and is therefore grounds for a claim of abandonment. The outside of Walnut Creek's FreeBSD CD-ROM package does not attribute the trademark to anyone other than itself. It does not say, "FreeBSD is a registered trademark of ," leaving someone who reads the shrink-wrapped package to believe that Walnut Creek is the exclusive owner of the mark. And inside the front cover of the booklet that comes with the CD-ROM set, there's something that's more disturbing still. Here, Walnut Creek ACTUALLY CLAIMS OWNERSHIP of the mark: "FreeBSD is a registered trademark (R) of FreeBSD, Inc. AND Walnut Creek CDROM." Cheap Bytes, on the other hand, prints on its CD-ROMs that FreeBSD is "a registered trademark of FreeBSD, Inc." More confusion. The FreeBSD project needs to clean house here -- though it may be too late. It's inappropriate for the name FreeBSD to be owned, or claimed, by the manufacturer of one distribution. If the project allows such a claim to stand, it would be giving away its name to Walnut Creek and giving it the ability to preclude competition. If it requires case-by-case permission, it will have to handle each request individually (an effort which will take precious time away from other pursuits) and will be imposing exactly the sort of restriction which is anathema to the world of open source software. This is why a policy statement is needed. I'll even volunteer to write it as a PR. >I asked my roommate who is a Debian ('Linux') developer and he said that >Debian is pretty much the same with regard to the use of the 'Debian' >brand. You're confusing the issue. Anyone can do a distribution of Linux and call it, for example, "BlobWare Linux." Creators of other distributions can use the name "Linux," but not the name "BlobWare." This is Linus' policy regarding the use of the trademark "Linux," which he owns. The same should be true of FreeBSD. If it is not, it will hurt the entire community by obscuring the fact that the many distributions of the OS are based on a common code base. This is a stumbling block that Linux does not have. If it is placed in the path of the creators of FreeBSD distributions, it will hurt FreeBSD immensely. And, as mentioned earlier, it will demonstrate a partiality toward Walnut Creek. >Why you expect the 'FreeBSD Project' to allow you to do something against >the Project's best interests is beyond me. The development of good distributions is, as I've mentioned before, in the project's best interests. It has done much good for Linux. >If you'd like to produce an official FreeBSD distribution I'm sure that >the release engineers would be more than happy to supply you with the >masters and all the cover art. A requirement that a vendor ship the CD-ROM image "verbatim" would be wasteful in many cases. It would preclude, for example, the creation of a GUI-less distribution intended specifically for servers. Leaving out XFree86 (which isn't even the work of the FreeBSD project) certainly doesn't mean it's not FreeBSD! On the other hand, being forced to include XFree86 would reduce the space available on the CD-ROM for utilities and enhancements. Everyone loses: the publisher, the customer, and (ultimately) the FreeBSD community, because it may lose the sale. > > Also, using the name "FreeBSD" helps to make it clear that the product > > is designed to run native binaries compiled for FreeBSD -- important > > if we want to encourage the development and publication of such > > products. It also ensures that the product's installed base is counted > > in surveys of FreeBSD's installed base. This is important to FreeBSD's > > reputation and, again, to generate market share numbers that encourage > > ports and support. This helps the entire FreeBSD community. > >Correct, but there is a difference b/t using the name 'FreeBSD' and >pretending to be 'The FreeBSD'. A requirement that the vendor prepend its name, as mentioned above, would solve this problem. > > Imagine what would happen to Linux's market share and installed base > > figures if sales of Red Hat, Caldera, SuSE, Debian, Mandrake, etc. > > weren't aggregated. Linux would be going nowhere fast. This would be > > an awful trap for FreeBSD to fall into: it amounts to a forking of PR > > even without a code fork. > >They aren't aggregated. Yes, they are. Market share numbers for "Linux" count all distributions together. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 12:47:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2500914A14 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24432; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:47:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910134138.047b8870@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:47:00 -0600 To: Jonathan Lemon From: Brett Glass Subject: IP rights in contributed code (Was: Market share and platform support) Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990910135329.20960@right.PCS> References: <4.2.0.58.19990910100024.047a4ce0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990910100024.047a4ce0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:53 PM 9/10/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >> You're right. But because Walnut Creek pays several employees to work > > full-time on FreeBSD, their contributions are substantial. Yank them > > -- or even some of them -- and production of an independent distribution > > becomes difficult or even infeasible. > >Yes, but this isn't limited to WC. What happens if I (or my employer) >decides to "yank", as you put it, all the vm86 work? Is it even legal >to do this? It depends. If you did the work on company time, your company owns it. The copyright notice should therefore bear the COMPANY'S name and say that the company is releasing it under the BSD license. And this should be done with the company's explicit consent, so that it can't renege later. If that code bears a notice that says it's copyrighted by YOU, and that YOU are releasing it under the BSD license, there's now a problem. The company can say that the entire license is bogus, since you didn't have the right to grant it in the first place. If the work is done on your own time, with your own equipment, there is no question that you can license it in any way you choose. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 12:52:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED3414A14 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:52:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24491; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:52:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910134716.047b9ae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:52:32 -0600 To: Jonathan Lemon From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990910135455.60884@right.PCS> References: <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:54 PM 9/10/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >> It wouldn't have to allow it. All WC would need to do is assert its legal > > right to its employees' work, and it would own code in the tree. And > > could license it however it wanted. > >And the code would then be ripped out and re-implemented by the community >at large. As has happened in the past, as well. Hopefully. But what about the employees, such as Jordan and Bill, who would be caught betwixt and between? And the vendors of other distributions, who might literally be required to pull their products until the code was reimplemented? It's best to avoid such potential problems, even if they're unlikely, by legally distancing the project from the vendor of any one distribution. Did you know that Walnut Creek already claims an interest in the NAME "FreeBSD?" This should set off some alarm bells right there. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 12:56:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0345A14DC2 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24537; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:56:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910135321.0479f680@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:56:04 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Market share and platform support In-Reply-To: <003101befbbf$e22bd000$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19990909220642.04737670@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:08 PM 9/10/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Oh sure, all they'd have to do is deny having knowingly released it under >the BSD license. That's the scary part. Look at the license on code created by Jordan, etc. carefully; it bears the name of the employee, not Walnut Creek's name. Since Walnut Creek owns work done by its employees on company time, a license which says that the work is copyrighted by the employee and then released under the BSD license isn't valid. It has to say that WALNUT CREEK owns the code and is licensing it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 13:27:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD99E153F3; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:27:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16168; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Market share and platform support In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:10:53 CDT." <19990910141053.25557@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:27:30 -0700 Message-ID: <16164.936995250@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Additionally, (I may be wrong here) I seem to recall that BSDi owns > the "BSD" mark, and the 3 BSD's (open/free/net) have a special > dispensation from BSDI to use it. This is correct. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 13:32:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E7F215080; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:32:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16222; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the name "FreeBSD" (Was: Market share and platform support) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:38:37 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990910120630.0479db30@localhost> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:32:04 -0700 Message-ID: <16219.936995524@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This entire discussion has become too tedius to even read any more, much less reply to. Consider it bit-bucketed. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 13:37: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D24A14F4F; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00927; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:36:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use of the name "FreeBSD" (Was: Market share and platform support) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910120630.0479db30@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Right now, the FreeBSD.org Web site already favors Walnut Creek in that > it does not mention Cheap Bytes as a source of CD-ROMs (see > > http://www.freeBSD.org/FAQ/preface.html#AEN26). This is troubling to > anyone who might consider doing another distribution. If I had to guess I'd say that Cheap Bytes doesn't solicit the official dist from the release engineers or otherwise attempt to put itself in the loop, and they probably don't give all their profits to The FreeBSD Project like WC does (did? I don't know.) Why would the Project favor a CD that doesn't have any other benefit than being 'cheap'? > > >From what it sounds like, you want to make a complete departure from the > >methods and manner of 'The FreeBSD Project' and produce something based on > >the 'FreeBSD Software'. > > Not so. The policy of the project, in keeping with the philosophy of the BSD > license, should be to allow people to do what they will with the project's > intellectual property without having to ask explicit permission. The conditions > imposed on such use are minor: indemnification against liability for bugs > and not claiming it as one's own work. To quote from the FAQ: > > "The goals of the FreeBSD Project are to provide software that may be used for > any purpose and without strings attached." > > To insist that it not be called FreeBSD at all if it's published by someone > other than one or more select publishers -- especially if the content is > the same -- > is certainly to attach some big strings and also to favor some over others. Stop thinking of WC as the publisher then. Consider WC to be the distribution arm of The FreeBSD Project. That is more or less what the situation looks like to my untrained eye. JKH can correct me if I'm too far out in left field. > >I asked my roommate who is a Debian ('Linux') developer and he said that > >Debian is pretty much the same with regard to the use of the 'Debian' > >brand. > > You're confusing the issue. Anyone can do a distribution of Linux and > call it, for example, "BlobWare Linux." Creators of other distributions can > use the name "Linux," but not the name "BlobWare." This is Linus' policy > regarding the use of the trademark "Linux," which he owns. No, I'm not. Anyone can take the Debian Software and create a CD but they can only sell it as 'Debian' if they actually press the official Debian CD image. Thats what you were bitching and moaning about a few paragraphs up. > >Why you expect the 'FreeBSD Project' to allow you to do something against > >the Project's best interests is beyond me. > > The development of good distributions is, as I've mentioned before, in the > project's best interests. It has done much good for Linux. Its not clear that anything you would have a hand it would be considered a 'good distribution'. Thus my confusion. You've efficively positioned yourself as a 'hostile' distributor of FreeBSD software. If you're not for the Project then you're working against it. You've created this preception, not I. > >Correct, but there is a difference b/t using the name 'FreeBSD' and > >pretending to be 'The FreeBSD'. > > A requirement that the vendor prepend its name, as mentioned above, would > solve this problem. And in the case of the WC FreeBSD CDROM it appears to me that the vendor is The FreeBSD Project, not WC. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 14: 2:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC01157B5; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:02:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01821; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:01:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAApdaiwd; Fri Sep 10 14:01:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17075; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:01:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909102101.OAA17075@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Market share and platform support To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:01:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990910141053.25557@right.PCS> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Sep 10, 99 02:10:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Maybe, maybe not. Who owns the FreeBSD trademark? Do I need permission to > > use it? If so, can Walnut Creek influence whether or not I can use it? > > Ah, now this is a different kettle of fish. FreeBSD, Inc. probably owns > the mark, and they get to choose who they license it to. Additionally, > (I may be wrong here) I seem to recall that BSDi owns the "BSD" mark, > and the 3 BSD's (open/free/net) have a special dispensation from BSDI > to use it. This is actually legally contestable, if it ever became an issue. I urged (successfully) Bill Jolitz register "386BSD" as a trademark, and it was granted by the USPTO (I believe prior to the BSDI application for "BSD"). Even so, one could argue "common usage" on "BSD" alone, if one had to, since there is a long history of apriori usage. Acronyms can be trademarked (e.g. "IBM"), but they must be acted upon before falling into common usage. This is tantamount to Microsoft having attempted to trademark the word "Windows" by itself, or Coca-Cola attempting to trademark "Cola" as an anticompetitive practice aime at Pepsi Co.: the term is in common use. > So, while the code may be free, the mark is not. This may definitely > pose a problem, as to whether you are permitted to take the existing > code base, make massive changes, and still call it ``FreeBSD-Foo''. And this is a real problem, if one wants to avoid the appearance of a FreeBSD schism over a mere issue of packaging and distribution. The work "FreeBSD" is, in fact, a registered trademark, and is not subject to the same "common usage" arguments as "BSD". > If you want to attack a new segment, you can introduce a new product, > (say FreeBSD-Desktop), and position this as the desktop solution. Or > you can create a new brand (FreeLinux, based on the world-class FreeBSD > server operating system, with the friendliness of Linux!), and position > this brand at a new segment without fear that it will "pollute" the image > of an existing brand. Lest we forget: What was called "FreeBSD 1.0" was renamed from "FreeBSD 0.1" at the request of Walnut Creek CDROM, for marketing reasons. The release of something called "FreeBSD 0.1" at all was the result of a revocation of right to use the "386BSD" trademark. "FreeBSD" exists because Bill Jolitz refused the use of the trademark when he renigged on a previous agreement that the code which was to later become "FreeBSD" would be permitted to be released as "386BSD 0.5", an interim release between "386BSD 0.1", released by Jolitz, and the greatly delayed "386BSD 1.0", which was also to be released by Jolitz. Trademarks are the levers by which schism is wrought. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 14:19: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E781514FB0; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25435; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:18:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910145334.047bad50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:18:40 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Use of the name "FreeBSD" (Was: Market share and platform support) Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990910120630.0479db30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:36 PM 9/10/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >If I had to guess I'd say that Cheap Bytes doesn't solicit the official >dist from the release engineers or otherwise attempt to put itself in the >loop, Why should they have to? Their goal is to produce a smaller, cheaper distribution of the OS, and they do it rather well. Again, the whole BSD philosophy is that you should not HAVE to ask anyone's permission or provide any mandatory compensation for the use of the project's intellectual property. >and they probably don't give all their profits to The FreeBSD >Project like WC does (did? I don't know.) You mean that there's a quid pro quo for publishing code from FreeBSD, or from being noted as a source on the project's Web pages? >Why would the Project favor a CD that doesn't have any other benefit than >being 'cheap'? It should not favor any distribution in particular. To do so suggests an inappropriate tie to one vendor. >Stop thinking of WC as the publisher then. Consider WC to be the >distribution arm of The FreeBSD Project. Walnut Creek is a private, for-profit company. For it to be the sole distributor of the product would mean that the FreeBSD developers were in effect working for a private company, gratis. > > The development of good distributions is, as I've mentioned before, in the > > project's best interests. It has done much good for Linux. > >Its not clear that anything you would have a hand it would be considered a >'good distribution'. Who is to be the judge? The only fair and unbiased arbiter is the marketplace. If a distribution is not of good quality, it will fail there. >Thus my confusion. You've efficively positioned yourself as a 'hostile' >distributor of FreeBSD software. My efforts would be in no way hostile. In fact, as I've pointed out MANY times, they would greatly benefit the entire community. Of course, if I can't get the legal issues and due diligence resolved, I'll have no choice but to go with something else and market it AGAINST FreeBSD. I'd really rather not do that, as FreeBSD is my first choice. But if things are really structured so that Walnut Creek has an exclusive, sweetheart deal, and the playing field will not be level, there's not much I can do; it'd be a fool's errand to base a distribution of FreeBSD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 14:24: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90ECD14C15; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:24:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25518; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:23:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910152026.047b5db0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:23:09 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909102101.OAA17075@usr09.primenet.com> References: <19990910141053.25557@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:01 PM 9/10/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >Trademarks are the levers by which schism is wrought. They don't have to be. A sensible, published policy granting the use of the trademark under reasonable conditions would be a Good Thing because it would prevent the problems which beset the FreeBSD project from recurring. It would also clear up some of the FUD which inhibits the release of new distributions. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 14:29:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DB814CFD; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:29:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25607; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:29:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910152640.047d9d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:29:15 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Shades of Richard Stallman? Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990910120630.0479db30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:36 PM 9/10/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > If you're not for the Project then you're working against it. Why does this sound like something Richard Stallman would write? Territoriality and enmity are exactly the things that are NOT needed here. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 14:35:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9721B14CFD for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02228; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:35:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shades of Richard Stallman? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910152640.047d9d40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My wife just told me to stop replying to you. "Arguing with a fool only makes you look foolish." She does have a bit of a point there. So I guess this is the end of my involvement in this conversation. Take care. On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:36 PM 9/10/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > > If you're not for the Project then you're working against it. > > Why does this sound like something Richard Stallman would write? > > Territoriality and enmity are exactly the things that are NOT > needed here. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 15: 5:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE298150DE; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:05:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:05:47 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Matthew N. Dodd" , "Brett Glass" Cc: "Jonathan Lemon" , , Subject: RE: Market share and platform support Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:05:47 -0700 Message-ID: <000801befbd8$a2d3f4a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I hope to god you need permission to use the 'FreeBSD' trademark, and if > Walnut Creek is the ones to fund and forward the legal bitch-slapping > should you use it without permission I only hope that the effort doesn't > hurt them financially and that you have to pawn your computer to cover the > damages. I agree entirely. The 'FreeBSD' name is invested in the notion of freedom. When you think of 'FreeBSD', you think of a BSD operating system that is _free_. Were you to use this name for a distribution that was not free, the reputation of the FreeBSD name would be harmed. It is in the interest of the trademark holders not to allow you to do this. [from another message, Brett speaking now] > You're right. But because Walnut Creek pays several employees to > work full-time > on FreeBSD, their contributions are substantial. Yank them -- or > even some of > them -- and production of an independent distribution becomes > difficult or even > infeasible. Once you release code under a BSD-style license, you can't "yank" it. This is really descending into baseless paranoia. But I do agree that it would be nice to have an objective list of requirements for using the 'FreeBSD' moniker, if such a thing does not exist already. However, you still have to appreciate that it's not fair to the FreeBSD project to have their name used on something that they don't feel advances their cause (or worse, harms it). What's so hard about coming up with your own name? You can even say objectively true things like "based upon FreeBSD release 3.2". But if it _isn't_ FreeBSD, why should you be allowed to _call_ it FreeBSD? And why should that be your decision rather than the trademark holder's? [from another message, Brett again] >Because playing favorites, and/or picking and choosing who can create >a distribution that says "FreeBSD" on it, is every bit as inappropriate >as it would be to pick and choose who could use the code. For the project >to impose such a restriction would be unwise, as well, because it would >make it more difficult for users to identify distributions of FreeBSD as >such. This, in turn, will hurt both FreeBSD and new distributions. I could not disagree more. FreeBSD seems to like the fact that all its distributions share basic similarities. If they believe that this has value, and they hold the trademark, they can and should protect it. You are free to disagree with them, of course, but you are not free to take their intellectual property and apply it against their interests. Nor are you free to decide what their interests are. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 15:14:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813F11523A; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:14:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26142; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:14:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910153408.04433c70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:14:16 -0600 To: Joseph Scott From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Cc: Nik Clayton , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37D94ECF.C8310539@owp.csus.edu> References: <7196.936853710@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990908203747.0463bd20@localhost> <7196.936853710@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990909221237.04738870@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:32 PM 9/10/99 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > From what I gather part ( most? ) of Brett's concern is to what degree >does WC get involved if somebody else starts doing stuff with a FreeBSD >distro. That's certainly a major concern. > I see that Jordan has already given a response as what he >personally feels about this and what WC would do, since they are a >business. That being that if it was something he felt was good then he >would help ( so would WC ) and if he felt it was bad then he would want >nothing to do with and recommend others do the same ( I imagine that if >WC felt it "hurt" them then they would react also ). > > In the end Brett felt that wasn't concrete enough. That's correct. I can't risk large amounts of money (a lot of it other people's) and large chunks of my life strictly on Jordan's feelings about what Walnut Creek would do, since he does not own Walnut Creek. I'd like to establish a friendly relationship with Walnut Creek, but things MUST be set up so that the entire business proposition does not depend solely upon their good graces. And, from what I'm seeing, it might. Walnut Creek CD-ROM claims to be co-owner of the trademark "FreeBSD." (If so, it could preclude others from using it.) It employs a number of the key developers of FreeBSD; it gets preference on the FreeBSD Web site (which it hosts). Note that, in the right hand column of the FreeBSD home page, the section marked "Vendors" has no links, and that the FreeBSD FAQ mentions only Walnut Creek's distribution. The RELNOTES.TXT file in every copy of FreeBSD lists Walnut Creek as a source of CD-ROMs and no one else. The FreeBSDMall.com site is operated by Walnut Creek as well and does not list any other distribution of FreeBSD. This doesn't make the folks who are interested in backing me very comfortable. > From what I tell >however this senario has already happened. Correctly if I'm wrong but >isn't this basically what NetMAX is doing? They have products based on >both FreeBSD and Linux. Actually, ALL of their products are based on Linux. (Their slogan, in fact, is "Simplifying Linux.") A tiny footnote on a couple of their Web pages says that ONE of their products, NetMAX Professional, is "also available with FreeBSD." And it sells for *$500!* Besides, NetMAX Pro is a different class of product. It's really a set of server administration tools that HAPPENS to throw in an open source operating system. And FreeBSD is merely an option for that one product. > So what do we learn now? Well, if you want to do something based on >FreeBSD you can pretty much do what you want. If you want to do >something based on FreeBSD the "right and good way" then you should make >friends with WC and not enemies, they obviously are interested in seeing >FreeBSD derived works succeed. In that case, will they commit to that? Will they (and the FreeBSD project) commit to a "separation of church and state" that levels the playing field for FreeBSD distributions? Will they relinquish their claim on the name FreeBSD, and allow other distributions to be mentioned in the FreeBSD RELNOTES.TXT file and on the FreeBSD Web site? Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to make sure I made my point >reasonably clear. I don't really want to become part of a flame war, >but I thought it may be usefull to provide a real life example of what I >think Brett is describing. Your input is appreciated; *I* at least am certainly not going to flame you. But I hope you, in turn, can understand my concerns. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 15:37:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED3B14FF5; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:37:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26401; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:36:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910161538.044422c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:36:57 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Market share and platform support Cc: "Jonathan Lemon" , , In-Reply-To: <000801befbd8$a2d3f4a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:05 PM 9/10/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > I agree entirely. The 'FreeBSD' name is invested in the notion of freedom. >When you think of 'FreeBSD', you think of a BSD operating system that is >_free_. Were you to use this name for a distribution that was not free, Who said I would? Of course, many of Walnut Creek's FreeBSD products contain items which may not be freely copied and which cannot be had for free, such as books. They use the FreeBSD name with no problem. A consistent policy would allow others to do the same. >[from another message, Brett speaking now] > > You're right. But because Walnut Creek pays several employees to > > work full-time > > on FreeBSD, their contributions are substantial. Yank them -- or > > even some of > > them -- and production of an independent distribution becomes > > difficult or even > > infeasible. > > Once you release code under a BSD-style license, you can't "yank" it. This >is really descending into baseless paranoia. Did you read my messages explaining why this could be a problem? Briefly, it has to do with the fact that a company owns the work its employees do on company time, and that the copyright notices list the employees -- not the company -- as being willing to license their code under the BSD license. > But I do agree that it would be nice to have an objective list of >requirements for using the 'FreeBSD' moniker, if such a thing does not exist >already. Good -- we have definite agreement on at least one point. (I think we may already agree on some others as well, actually.) How should this be done? Should it be submitted as a PR to the FreeBSD FAQ? >However, you still have to appreciate that it's not fair to the >FreeBSD project to have their name used on something that they don't feel >advances their cause (or worse, harms it). I think I've covered this point already. Clearly, if I am trying to sell a FreeBSD distribution, it is absolutely counter to MY interests to harm the project in any way. So, such a distribution would represent an ALIGNMENT of interests. It might take different approaches to getting to the same goals, but this is arguably a good thing. > What's so hard about coming up with your own name? You can even say >objectively true things like "based upon FreeBSD release 3.2". But if it >_isn't_ FreeBSD, why should you be allowed to _call_ it FreeBSD? Because this has benefits all around. To use a different name would give the impression that it was another BSD "fork," and prevent its users from being tabulated as users of FreeBSD by the bean counters. (We don't want this, since one of the purposes of the distribution would be to enlist more users and close the market share gap between FreeBSD and Linux.) Using the name, on the other hand, would pump up FreeBSD's market share numbers and lead to more ISV support. It's a win/win. > And why should that be your decision rather than the trademark holder's? Again, the entire spirit of the BSDs, as involves intellectual property, is that case-by-case licensing decisions should not be necessary. You set the least restrictive conditions you can without exposing yourself to serious trouble (e.g. a disclaimer of liability) , then set the code (or text, or whatever) free. I think we have already agreed -- above -- that a simple published policy is the way to go. >[from another message, Brett again] > >Because playing favorites, and/or picking and choosing who can create > >a distribution that says "FreeBSD" on it, is every bit as inappropriate > >as it would be to pick and choose who could use the code. For the project > >to impose such a restriction would be unwise, as well, because it would > >make it more difficult for users to identify distributions of FreeBSD as > >such. This, in turn, will hurt both FreeBSD and new distributions. > > I could not disagree more. FreeBSD seems to like the fact that all its >distributions share basic similarities. If they believe that this has value, >and they hold the trademark, they can and should protect it. Wouldn't the policy we've been talking about already cover this? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 15:55:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7654C14D16; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:55:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23891; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:55:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd023807; Fri Sep 10 15:55:22 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15665; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:55:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909102255.PAA15665@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Market share and platform support To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:55:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: davids@webmaster.com, winter@jurai.net, jlemon@americantv.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910161538.044422c0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Sep 10, 99 04:36:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Once you release code under a BSD-style license, you can't "yank" > >it. This is really descending into baseless paranoia. > > Did you read my messages explaining why this could be a problem? > Briefly, it has to do with the fact that a company owns the work > its employees do on company time, and that the copyright notices > list the employees -- not the company -- as being willing to > license their code under the BSD license. This presumes that the relationship between the employee and the employer is a "work for hire" arrangement. With respect, this may not be true. It is my understanding that "The FreeBSD Project, Inc." employs Jordan, and that the arrangement for Jordan's time is via contract between Walnut Creek CDROM and The FreeBSD Project, Inc. for the delivery of master CDROMs, and some other tangential matters such as release schedules and guarantees about frequency of release. I believe the reference to Jordan being an employee of Walnut Creek CDROM is historical, or is a convenience for tax purposes. That being said, all of the above is hearsay, and could stand to be definatively corrected by the only person who can correct it at this time, which would be Jordan. Alternately, I believe the articles of incorporation are available from the office of the Secretary of State, should this be truly important to you (i.e. worth more than a list posting to find out). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 16: 6:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web608.mail.yahoo.com (web608.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D260E1527B for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:06:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jorgandar@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990910230709.24160.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.65.178.107] by web608.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:07:09 PDT Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:07:09 -0700 (PDT) From: jorgandar blackmoon Subject: Ethernet device To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok i have a newbie question. I have a NetGear ethernet card, and currently FreeBSD only seems to support 3Com (blahhhh...far overpriced for it's worth...) and others. Since i'm going to be re-compiling my kernel i'd like to know what I can do as to choose the "most compatable" driver for my card. Anyone have any ideas? ~Joe~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 16:13:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E16814D16 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk ([158.152.29.164]) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11PZrG-000BOn-0C; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:13:31 +0000 Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (titus.stade.co.uk [192.168.1.5]) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03955; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:56:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1@titus.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24873; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:55:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:55:35 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: Greg Quinlan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More SCO Propaganda Message-ID: <19990910235535.A23835@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: <199909100818.EAA06587@easeway.com> <00be01befb78$87d23460$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <00be01befb78$87d23460$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk>; from Greg Quinlan on Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 11:37:50AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RC Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moving from stable to chat) On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 11:37:50AM +0100, Greg Quinlan wrote: > http://www.sco.com/profservices/linux/ > > I see that SCO is coming to the rescue of OpenSource Unix environments, with > risk assessment, stability, and most of all expertise. > > I quote: > > "we believe that SCO has the largest staff of Open Source experts of any > commercial software vendor." > > "As a founding sponsor of Linux International, SCO is a strong proponent of > the Open Source movement, citing it as a driving force for innovation. Over > the years, SCO has contributed source code to the movement." > > ~~~~~ > > It's just lucky for us that SCO is there to drive forward Open Source!! > (huge sarcasm)!! > > Does anyone know if they done anything for FreeBSD Sability? :) Not all the sarcasm is deserved. Until I saw the light, and the cost benefits, I ran SCO UNIX and then OpenDeathTrap. SCO had quite a positive attitude to what is now called Open Source. Some of their developers were very helpful and active in the SCO news groups and mailing lists. Header files and libraries were available for the base system so that you could use gcc rather than the ever so expensive development system (I think). There were, still are for all I know, the periodic Skunkware CDs, chock full of ported and compiled freeware, which SCO would send to you for free. Their claim to having the largest staff of Open Source experts of any commercial software vendor could well be true. I'm sure that they do believe the Open Source approach and attendant innovation is overall good for them. While they will loose a few sales to organisations who switch to Linux or *BSD, the majority of their customers seem to be prepared to pay lots for the product, and more for support. Yes, a competitor, but a friendly one. They don't seem to have any ambitions to take over the entire OS market, just enlarge their niche. -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 16:19:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F193614D16; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:19:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA15004; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:19:14 -0700 Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpd7TtHaa; Fri Sep 10 16:19:09 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA16184; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:19:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909102319.QAA16184@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:19:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: davids@webmaster.com, winter@jurai.net, jlemon@americantv.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910161538.044422c0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Sep 10, 99 04:36:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At times, even I become mildly annoyed, which is a surpassingly difficult state for an outside agency to invoke. It is amazing to me how many people are apparently ignorant about what is available at a few keystrokes, and are willing to expend millions of keystrokes proving their unwillingness to alleviate that ignorance. It is equally amazing to me that people who claim intolerance of that expenditure are equally ignorant, and equally willing to tolerate that which they claim to despise, and expend an equal millions of keystrokes proving their unwillingness to alleviate that which they claim is frustrating to them. What is even more amazing is that the information that would alleviate the frustration of the intolerant must be readily available to the second group of people, yet they remain silent on fact, and involve themselves only to periodically fan the flames of ignorance. -- Using the USPTO search form located at: http://trademarks.uspto.gov/access/search-mark.html I obtained the following information: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Word Mark FREEBSD Pseudo Mark FREE BSD Owner Name (REGISTRANT) WALNUT CREEK CDROM, INCORPORATED Owner Address 1547 Palos Verdes Mall, Suite 260 Walnut Creek CALIFORNIA 94596 CORPORATION CALIFORNIA Attorney of Record Joseph K. Siino Serial Number 74-546171 Registration Number 1955727 Filing Date 07/06/1994 Registration Date 02/13/1996 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Register PRINCIPAL Published for Opposition 11/21/1995 Type of Mark TRADEMARK International Class 009 Goods and Services CD ROMs featuring an archive of computer programs which may be accessed for use; DATE OF FIRST USE: 1993.08.31; DATE OF FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1993.08.31 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Amusingly, this beats the resitration of the "APPLE" service mark by Apple Computer, Inc., by almost a year and a half. Rather than continue on the question of what one can do with the trademark, I suggest that interested parties contact either Walnut Creek CDROM or Joseph K. Siino, if he is still counsel, directly. The questions you should ask are: 1) Have the rights in the trademark been assigned? 2) If the answer to #1 is no, what are the terms of use of the trademark? 3) If the answer to #1 is yes, than is the assignment exclusive? 4) If the answer to #3 is no, what are the terms of use of the trademark? 5) If the answer to #3 is yes, who is the assignee? 6) Given the information from #6, contact the assignee directly, and begin again at #1. That is all. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 16:25: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F24115350 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13946; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:30:02 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA23610; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Brett Glass Subject: RE: My proposals for the future [Long] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Sep-99 Brett Glass wrote: > 1. An exponentially growing gap between the sizes of the BSD and Linux > user bases, coupled with slowly declining market share; You are certain that the numbers used were used in a scientifically correct manner, such as to give the numbers credibility? > 2. A lack of the sort of aggressive, contagious advocacy that continues > to fuel the spread of Linux; Misleading advocacy, you mean. > 3. A lack of the sort of venture capital and well-financed commercial > promotion now being expended on Linux; I'm not sure how that is a bad thing. With money comes the desire by investors to change the way things are done. > 4. A lack of interest on the part of large application developers (due > primarily to item 1 above); Of course, I'm sure you didn't bother asking the correct person whether this is true or not. > 5. An "elitist" attitude which discourages even very talented > potential contributors to the code base; I object to this statement. Anyone can contribute, providing they contribute in the correct manner; using the PR system is the simplest way to do so. Committers commit code bits / patches / etc. that are deemed quality code - if you offer a well-supported piece of code, they'd be fools not to commit it. > 6. A shortage of contributors to handle known problems in the code > base (due to items 1 and 5 above); and There is no shortage of contributors (177 committers, I think? in addition to several thousands of people who work on the various portions of FreeBSD). There is, of course, also no shortage of people who complain that there is a shortage of contributors but don't bother to contribute themselves for any reason whatsoever. > 7. A failure to recognize the value of a large and growing user base. Uhh? What are you talking about? >>Can we fix these problems? Are they problems, or choices >>with long term payoffs rather than immediate. > > They are problems. There is no long-term benefit to falling behind > Linux, either technically or in market share. I do not think FreeBSD is falling behind Linux, technically. As far as I can tell, Linux is still lacking the technical superiority that so many of its advocates speak of. > Some people on this list have sneered, somewhat contemptuously, at > the "hordes" of newbies that flock to a popular OS. But this is > elitism at its worst. We were all "newbies" once (as I was when > I first encountered UNIX in 1977), and everyone deserves to benefit > from a good thing. It's not "elitism", it's criticism. Get your isms straight. >>You can't really be so >>egotistical as to asssume that you, single-handedly (or even you and >>50 other guys with a few million dollars worth of capital), can >>compete with Red Hat and its 2 billion dollar war market cap? > > Why not? Red Hat is competing with Microsoft, which recently surpassed > the market cap of GE to achieve the largest market valuation of any > company on Earth. Red Hat is nothing more than a company trying to make money. I do not think FreeBSD's ultimate goal is to turn FreeBSD into a money-making OS (well, not to a large extent, like that of Red Hat Linux). > Or would Walnut Creek -- and you, as an employee thereof -- shoot me > in the back? Seriously: may I have your word, and Walnut Creek's, that > you won't sabotage what I do if I manage to get these investors to > cough up some money? If you do this, I could announce some positive > results as soon as FreeBSDCon. Your (return) sarcasm only contributes to the relative antagonism towards your boasts of advocacy. The previous person only doubted that you would actually lead a successful effort to propel FreeBSD's userbase up. He/she did not mean for you to think that anybody would backstab you. Your question as to whether this would happen seems to indicate that you lack the courage to even start such a campaign. > I've made quite a few, but they all boil down to this: good code and > good memes. This is what makes a successful software product. But > code quality is less important than good memes -- as is shown by > the dominance of Windows, NT, and Linux over BeOS, OS/2, and FreeBSD. I think a lot of FreeBSD would disagree with this -- particularly the large number of those who use FreeBSD for its superior code quality, and not because of a hype advocating its use. You really should do what you have claimed you would do, and not discuss about what you would do. Of course, doing is harder than saying. But then, if I'm not mistaken, you've been saying for at least two or three years. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 16:27: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0891D14ED0; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:27:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05388; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:26:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) id SAA19394; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:26:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990910182651.54663@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:26:51 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , davids@webmaster.com, winter@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek References: <4.2.0.58.19990910161538.044422c0@localhost> <199909102319.QAA16184@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199909102319.QAA16184@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sep 09, 1999 at 11:19:06PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 09, 1999 at 11:19:06PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > At times, even I become mildly annoyed, which is a surpassingly > difficult state for an outside agency to invoke. Is this because of the results of the search, or because of the apparent ignorance of the participants in the discussion? And before you jump on me, I'll simply have to plead ignorance of the USPTO trademark site. But then again, I'm not the one considering an alternate distribution, in which cae, I would presumably have a real lawyer to do this for me. > Word Mark FREEBSD > Pseudo Mark FREE BSD > Owner Name (REGISTRANT) WALNUT CREEK CDROM, > INCORPORATED Interesting. Note that this is the original registrant, so that the mark could be assigned to someone else. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 16:42:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9FE14E46; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:42:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA29953; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:41:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwIaqA6; Fri Sep 10 16:41:25 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17082; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:41:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909102341.QAA17082@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:41:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, davids@webmaster.com, winter@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990910182651.54663@right.PCS> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Sep 10, 99 06:26:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sep 09, 1999 at 11:19:06PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > At times, even I become mildly annoyed, which is a surpassingly > > difficult state for an outside agency to invoke. > > Is this because of the results of the search, or because of > the apparent ignorance of the participants in the discussion? The LENGTH of the discussion without an attempt to resort to an avenue other than brow-beating on a mailing list to get the information. It's also annoying, because Jordan _must_ know this information himself, and is simply refusing to provide it for whatever reason, which just eggs Brett further on, with no end in sight. I respect both Brett and Jordan, but it seems to me that in this case Brett is being less resourceful than I've credited him, while Jordan is being more belligerant than I've credited him. Mostly it is my mislaid credit that annoys me, FWIW. > And before you jump on me, I'll simply have to plead ignorance > of the USPTO trademark site. But then again, I'm not the one > considering an alternate distribution, in which cae, I would > presumably have a real lawyer to do this for me. Brett is in a phase of startup where the majority of work is legwork, and expenditure on lawyers is unwarranted. Once he finishes the legwork, and determines that the current holder of the trademark (or one of its licensees or consigns -- though a consignment has to be recorded and none was) is willing to enter into an agreement for its use, THEN a lawyer is needed to write up the use agreement. > > Word Mark FREEBSD > > Pseudo Mark FREE BSD > > Owner Name (REGISTRANT) WALNUT CREEK CDROM, > > INCORPORATED > > Interesting. Note that this is the original registrant, so > that the mark could be assigned to someone else. Consigned (sold). If this were the case, then the Owner Name and Current Owner Name would be seperate fields. It also may be the case that it's like "UNIX", exclusively licensed to someone (presumable, The FreeBSD Project, Inc.); such an arrangement need not be recorded at the USPTO. See the second "UNIX" registration for an example of both of the above. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 16:55:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617E214FCC; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27210; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:55:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910172431.00c1ca80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:27:44 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , jkh@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: By whom is Jordan employed? Cc: davids@webmaster.com, winter@jurai.net, jlemon@americantv.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909102255.PAA15665@usr04.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990910161538.044422c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:55 PM 9/10/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >This presumes that the relationship between the employee and the >employer is a "work for hire" arrangement. With respect, this >may not be true. > >It is my understanding that "The FreeBSD Project, Inc." employs >Jordan, and that the arrangement for Jordan's time is via contract >between Walnut Creek CDROM and The FreeBSD Project, Inc. for the >delivery of master CDROMs, and some other tangential matters such >as release schedules and guarantees about frequency of release. If so, then it makes a big difference. Jordan, could you confirm whether this is so or not? >I believe the reference to Jordan being an employee of Walnut Creek >CDROM is historical, or is a convenience for tax purposes. > >That being said, all of the above is hearsay, and could stand to be >definatively corrected by the only person who can correct it at >this time, which would be Jordan. > >Alternately, I believe the articles of incorporation are available >from the office of the Secretary of State, should this be truly >important to you (i.e. worth more than a list posting to find out). The articles of incorporation would list the name of the corporation, its purpose, and its officers at the time of incorporation. But it wouldn't say whether Jordan was employed by Walnut Creek CDROM or not. An officer of one corporation can certainly be an employee of another. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 16:55:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5553915379; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27213; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:55:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910172941.00aa81c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:55:26 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909102319.QAA16184@usr04.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990910161538.044422c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:19 PM 9/10/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >At times, even I become mildly annoyed, which is a surpassingly >difficult state for an outside agency to invoke. > >It is amazing to me how many people are apparently ignorant about >what is available at a few keystrokes, and are willing to expend >millions of keystrokes proving their unwillingness to alleviate >that ignorance. [More text elided] It just so happens that I already have done a similar search, via Thomas (the comany, not the Congressional Web site) and it was one of the reasons for my concerns. But I was REALLY confused when I found the conflicting claims. While the Thomas database says that Walnut Creek owns it, Walnut Creek writes on its literature that it's a trademark of Walnut Creek CDROM and FreeBSD, Inc. And Cheap Bytes says that FreeBSD, Inc. alone owns it. Why the discrepancy? >Rather than continue on the question of what one can do with the >trademark, I suggest that interested parties contact either >Walnut Creek CDROM or Joseph K. Siino, if he is still counsel, >directly. Joseph K. Siino no longer works for Walnut Creek's law firm. But I need to talk with Walnut Creek anyway, so I'll ask some qustions similar to the ones in your message. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 17:16:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5509E151EB; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27419; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:16:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910180210.00c06100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:16:10 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, davids@webmaster.com, winter@jurai.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909102341.QAA17082@usr04.primenet.com> References: <19990910182651.54663@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:41 PM 9/10/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >It's also annoying, because Jordan _must_ know this information >himself, and is simply refusing to provide it for whatever reason, >which just eggs Brett further on, with no end in sight. I respect >both Brett and Jordan, but it seems to me that in this case Brett >is being less resourceful than I've credited him, Nope, as mentioned earlier, I did look it up in the Thomas database. (I could have used the USPTO, too.) But trademarks can be licensed or assigned, so the database search might not tell the whole story. I was certainly expecting that Jordan or another person at Walnut Creek or FreeBSD, Inc. would speak up and clarify the issue. >while Jordan is >being more belligerant than I've credited him. I'm not sure WHAT Jordan is thinking. Certainly, he should realize that the questions I'm raising will come up at one time or another. After all, I'm sure that MANY people have thought of doing distributions, and every issue I'm raising should come up as part of the due diligence process for any such effort. So, it's a mystery to me why he is not answering them quickly, candidly, and publicly, as is fitting in an open development community. > Mostly it is my mislaid credit that annoys me, FWIW. It would annoy me as well. I see your name in some very key spots as I browse the source. >Brett is in a phase of startup where the majority of work is >legwork, and expenditure on lawyers is unwarranted. Once he >finishes the legwork, and determines that the current holder of >the trademark (or one of its licensees or consigns -- though a >consignment has to be recorded and none was) is willing to enter >into an agreement for its use, THEN a lawyer is needed to write >up the use agreement. Perhaps. It would be better, though, to have a published policy on the use of the mark. Otherwise, every new distribution would involve negotiations, lawyers, and contracts, when all involved would be more productive if they set their minds to coding, etc. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 18:13:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lanshark.lanminds.com (lanshark.lanminds.com [208.25.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7951014C10 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from todd@lmi.net) Received: from drtboi.lanminds.com (drtboi.lmi.net [208.25.91.219]) by lanshark.lanminds.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28511; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990910230709.24160.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: todd@lmi.net Organization: LMI.net From: Todd Meister To: jorgandar blackmoon Subject: RE: Ethernet device Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I suggest checking out the LINT file in /usr/src/sys/i386/conf. A grep through LINT found: # The `pn' device provides support for various fast ethernet adapters # based on the Lite-On 82c168 and 82c169 PNIC chips, including the # LinkSys LNE100TX, the NetGear FA310TX rev. D1 and the Matrox # FastNIC 10/100. # The 'ti' device provides support for PCI gigabit ethernet NICs based # on the Alteon Networks Tigon 1 and Tigon 2 chipsets. This includes the # Alteon AceNIC, the 3Com 3c985, the Netgear GA620 and various others. # Note that you will probably want to bump up NMBCLUSTERS a lot to use # this driver. It would definitely help to know what chipset your card is. -Todd On 10-Sep-99 jorgandar blackmoon wrote: > Ok i have a newbie question. I have a NetGear ethernet card, and > currently FreeBSD only seems to support 3Com (blahhhh...far overpriced > for it's worth...) and others. Since i'm going to be re-compiling my > kernel i'd like to know what I can do as to choose the "most > compatable" driver for my card. Anyone have any ideas? > > ~Joe~ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Todd Meister LMI.net vox: 510 843 6389 fax: 510 843 6390 toll free: 888 420 0420 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 18:44: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A075415276 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:44:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28094 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:43:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910194049.0471f140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:43:55 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Wall Street Journal: Only Linux market share growing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today's Wall Street Journal featured an article on BSD UNIX (in which Jordan Hubbard was quoted, incidentally). According to the author, "...one recent survey showed that BSD [all versions] accounted for nearly 15% of all server machines connected to the Internet. Linux leads the pack with 31%, and is the only major operating system making any gains. Windows had 24%." Further confirmation that the BSDs, even all together, are not gaining market share. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 18:57:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D5814CC8 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19208; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909110156.SAA19208@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal: Only Linux market share growing In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:43:55 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990910194049.0471f140@localhost> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:56:31 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Today's Wall Street Journal featured an article on BSD UNIX (in which >Jordan Hubbard was quoted, incidentally). According to the author, > >"...one recent survey showed that BSD [all versions] accounted for nearly >15% of all >server machines connected to the Internet. Linux leads the pack with 31%, >and is the only major operating system making any gains. Windows had 24%." > >Further confirmation that the BSDs, even all together, are not gaining >market share. It's not further confirmation of anything unless they did an indepedant study (which I'm quite sure they didn't). In other words, same re-hashed bogus stats that they gleaned out of a well known and out of date study. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 19:33:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD05714F00 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17368; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:33:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Investors are getting concerned In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:00:08 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990910185453.04482720@localhost> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:33:30 -0700 Message-ID: <17364.937017210@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > We need to talk. The investors are leaning very strongly in favor of using > OpenBSD rather than FreeBSD for the project ever since they found out that > the trademark "FreeBSD" is registered to Walnut Creek CDROM! They fear that They should have figured that out a lot earlier than now - it's been a matter of public record since the beginning, as Terry Lambert has just demonstrated in his own posting, and ignorance of the US Tradmark and Patent office website (or telephone inquiries number) is no excuse, especially if you're supposedly dealing with real businessmen. And while it hasn't exactly been trumpeted from the treetops, it hasn't been a secret either (how can it, trademark registrations are public record!) and quite a few others have discovered this for themselves over the years and asked me in private email just what the deal was. I've told them all the same thing: Walnut Creek CDROM's ex-VP registered it on our behalf quite some time back, back when we couldn't even afford the filing fees ourselves, and transferring it to FreeBSD, Inc. control has been a matter of laxity in filing the paperwork (and paying Walnut Creek CDROM back their registration fees, to keep it honest and straight-forward all around), not some Machiavellian plot to hijack the FreeBSD project name and sell our technology to Libya. If I haven't exactly been shouting about the trademark ownership issue either, it's because if I did and people started really itching over it, I'd have to go through the whole paperwork thing Right That Minute(tm) and I've been kinda too busy lately to go and deliberately invent a new and immediate crisis to deal with. I agree that it needs to be done, and I talked to Walnut Creek CDROM about this just a couple of weeks ago ("We should do that soon." "Yeah. Soon."), we've just been too busy stomping out larger and more important fires recently to sit down with the lawyer. I'm also not particularly worried (and never have been) over the issue since even if Walnut Creek CDROM did suddenly turn to the dark side and attempt a trademark coup d'etat before I got around to signing the forms and the check, we in core would simply stick our tongues out at them and change the project's name to something cool, like "ServerForce", also making several legions of current and future marketing people deleriously happy at the same time (I'm just kidding about "ServerForce" though). We hold all the cards here, and if they want to shoot their golden goose through the head then they can get fussy over the trademark. We know it, they know it, and Bob has said several times that he doesn't even *want* to own the trademark since it leaves the company open to accusations of potential piracy on the high seas just like this. Bob and I are both just paperwork shy and that's never been a crime, even when you've got Brett Glass having kittens over the issue. Which brings us to the second point, which is what the owners of the trademark would do, be it Walnut Creek CDROM OR FreeBSD, Inc., if you came out with the Evil Brett Distribution and called it FreeBSD. Maybe if you called it FreeEBD, that would be a different enough (though still damn confusing) that we wouldn't whine, but we'd certainly send you a cease-and-desist notice for using the FreeBSD name for Evil purposes and that's going to remain true no matter who owns the mark. You've also already had numerous examples of FreeBSD derived products cited in this mailing list, none of which anyone has gone after for being evil, and if you can't derive a reasonable distinction between good and evil from that then there's not much more information I or anyone else could give you which would be of much help. I've already said it once during this increasingly pointless thread and I'll say it just once more: We, the FreeBSD project members and the custodians of the trademark, have no beef with anyone who does good things and doesn't sully our good name. You'd have to sink pretty low before that would happen, but I can't say it's inconceivable and you'll just have to accept that as an operating condition. Nobody is going to give you carte blanche to do whatever the heck you feel like doing under the FreeBSD banner. If you want to do Evil, call it something else. Call it GlassOS. :) Finally, as far as who the FreeBSD project decides to acknowledge on its web pages and in its documentation is concerned, being listed there is a privilege rather than a right (BSD copyright or not) and the project has always reserved the right to be nice to its friends. Gosh, welcome to reality! I'm sorry it's such a shock to your system. :-) Walnut Creek CDROM has given the project a tremendous amount in terms of resources (and I'm not just talking about the release engineer's salary, that's probably the smallest part) and anyone who's spent any time around the project knows that. It's only right that we give them the acknowledgement they deserve and also to maybe try and see that their CD prodect makes money since a portion of that money always flows through to supporting us. It's no more than enlightened self-interest to do so. The other *BSDs support themselves through CD sales and this is no different except that we have a buffer layer to take care of the messy logistics of actually having to promote and sell CDs into channels. We sometimes write code for money too, if you want to know an even more shameful secret. :) And yeah, it's still a level playing field in that if some other group decides to play sugar daddy to the project at a level which meets or exceeds the committment that Walnut Creek CDROM has shown (and that's admittedly a lot) then I'm sure the project would give their CD product or whatever it was equal billing in their documentation and word-of-mouth advertising. It's a direct investment-to-benefit ratio at work here and to even have to explain the obvious like this to you seems like an activity which is beneath both of us. If your mystery investors actually DO all these wonderful things for the project then they'll get the project's gratitude in all the appropriate ways. If they try to do it harm, they'll feel its teeth. These rules apply to everyone and have always applied, right up to and including Walnut Creek CDROM. What you seem to be asking for here, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, is some sort of special credit towards doing good works before any of those good works are actually done, and frankly it's both this attitude and the involvement of a principal who has always seemed far more hostile to the project than kind which makes me very disinclined to grant any such credit. If anything, we're starting from a position of deep demerit and it makes me wonder if your investors wouldn't be better off in finding someone else to spearhead the relationship with their BSD-in-waiting, whichever of the two options they might pick. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 19:46:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366EC14FA4 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:46:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17441; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:46:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Bakul Shah Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Investors are getting concerned In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:44:05 EDT." <199909110244.WAA02985@chai.torrentnet.com> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:46:28 -0700 Message-ID: <17437.937017988@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Isn't is true that trademarks have to be actively protected > regardless of whether it is the good guys or the bad guys who > are using them without permission or else you are in danger of > of losing the trademark? Yes, that is true, and it's another reason I've sort of let Walnut Creek CDROM hold the trademark potato for so long - it's been really nice to have a lawyer I don't have to pay around to handle the enforcement duties on a consistent basis. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 20:30:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (226-193.adsl2.avtel.net [207.71.226.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17C2152F7 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Received: from Generator.Circuit.Powered-By.AC (dburr@Generator.Circuit.Powered-By.AC [192.168.0.1]) by 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04055; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:30:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:30:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Burr To: Pamela Gross Cc: John DeGroof , SBLUG Users , Charles Gousha , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: God, this is scary... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.uk.linux.org/FEATURE/Canada/A/54.jpg Sure makes you want to travel, doesn't it? I mean, if this is what the airports are running, it makes you wonder what the **PLANES** are running, doesn't it? *gulp* -- Donald Burr *NEW!* FreeBSD Dev. | FreeBSD: The WWW: http://www.Powered-By.AC/ *NEW!* ICQ #16997506 | Power to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | Serve! http:// Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 20:57:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1772214C48 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:57:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA07730; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:02:48 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA29584; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:57:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Donald Burr Subject: RE: God, this is scary... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-Sep-99 Donald Burr wrote: > http://www.uk.linux.org/FEATURE/Canada/A/54.jpg > > Sure makes you want to travel, doesn't it? I mean, if this is what the > airports are running, it makes you wonder what the **PLANES** are running, > doesn't it? *gulp* That picture's been passed around a million times for QUITE awhile.. ;) Too bad there's no indication in it of the date. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 21: 5: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B0E3814FC4 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from walton@nordicrecords.com) Received: (qmail 690 invoked by alias); 11 Sep 1999 04:04:58 -0000 Message-ID: <19990911040458.687.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 665 invoked from network); 11 Sep 1999 04:04:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 11 Sep 1999 04:04:57 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: Terry Lambert Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:02:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek Reply-To: walton@nordicrecords.com Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 Sep 1999 at 23:41:53, Terry Lambert wrote: > It's also annoying, because Jordan _must_ know this information > himself, and is simply refusing to provide it for whatever reason, > which just eggs Brett further on, with no end in sight. I respect > both Brett and Jordan, but it seems to me that in this case Brett > is being less resourceful than I've credited him, while Jordan is > being more belligerant than I've credited him. Mostly it is my > mislaid credit that annoys me, FWIW. I'm glad someone else feels the same way. As much as I respect them, I was about ready to chide both of them for lack of any attempt to resolve the debate when you came in and started tossing facts around. Thanks. :) In their defense, I saw several instances where both sides fired off knee-jerk responses and clearly did not take the time to read and understand what the other was saying. So it's probably more a matter of conditioned responses rather than belligerence or lack of resourcefulness. But it *is* frustrating... Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton Webmaster, Postmaster Nordic Entertainment Worldwide walton@nordicdms.com http://www.nordicdms.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 21:21:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE9A14C1F for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29403; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:21:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990910214924.0471d100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:21:37 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Investors are getting concerned Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <17364.937017210@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:33 PM 9/10/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >They should have figured that out a lot earlier than now - it's been a >matter of public record since the beginning, as Terry Lambert has just >demonstrated in his own posting, and ignorance of the US Tradmark and >Patent office website (or telephone inquiries number) is no excuse, >especially if you're supposedly dealing with real businessmen. Well, at this point I'm still in the EARLY stages of due diligence, and while I didn't already know the details I did know (from the conflicting notices on different products) that there was SOMETHING amiss. Terry confirmed what I'd found out: that Thomas's Register showed Walnut Creek as owning the trademark. But FreeBSD, Inc. needs to own it, and EXPLICITLY grant us the right to use it, before we can stick it on a product. "We haven't gone after anyone" is simply not good enough, and I hope you'll understand why. >And while it hasn't exactly been trumpeted from the treetops, it >hasn't been a secret either (how can it, trademark registrations are >public record!) and quite a few others have discovered this for >themselves over the years and asked me in private email just what the >deal was. I've told them all the same thing: Walnut Creek CDROM's >ex-VP registered it on our behalf quite some time back, back when we >couldn't even afford the filing fees ourselves, and transferring it to >FreeBSD, Inc. control has been a matter of laxity in filing the >paperwork (and paying Walnut Creek CDROM back their registration fees, >to keep it honest and straight-forward all around), not some >Machiavellian plot to hijack the FreeBSD project name and sell our >technology to Libya. Maybe. But it's got a lot of folks here very antsy, nonetheless, because to them it is an indication -- once again -- that the playing field may be tilted very far toward Walnut Creek insofar as distributions go. >Which brings us to the second point, which is what the owners of the >trademark would do, be it Walnut Creek CDROM OR FreeBSD, Inc., if you >came out with the Evil Brett Distribution and called it FreeBSD. There should be an established, published policy regarding the use of the name. Otherwise, there has to be a contract; I couldn't proceed without one or the other, and neither could anyone else who was considering a distribution. Now, if you are paperwork-shy (as you say), the former is clearly a better way to go. Why not establish a policy and put it on the Web site as part of the first section of the FreeBSD FAQ? I have already indicated my willingness to submit a proposed policy as a PR. >You've also already had numerous examples of FreeBSD derived products >cited in this mailing list, none of which anyone has gone after for >being evil, and if you can't derive a reasonable distinction between >good and evil from that then there's not much more information I or >anyone else could give you which would be of much help. I've already >said it once during this increasingly pointless thread and I'll say it >just once more: We, the FreeBSD project members and the custodians of >the trademark, have no beef with anyone who does good things and >doesn't sully our good name. Well, anything that meets MY standards is going to be a good thing. I won't let it out the door otherwise. >Finally, as far as who the FreeBSD project decides to acknowledge on >its web pages and in its documentation is concerned, being listed >there is a privilege rather than a right (BSD copyright or not) and >the project has always reserved the right to be nice to its friends. Hopefully, anyone who grows the user base and does good things for FreeBSD would be considered friendly and find a place on the Web site and in the docs. And any project involving open source that DOES make money should contribute back to the development project. What I'm concerned about is that NO competitor of Walnut Creek is mentioned ANYWHERE, and that the heading which reads "Vendors" is conspicuously empty. >What you seem to be asking for here, and I'm sure you'll correct me if >I'm wrong, I will... >is some sort of special credit towards doing good works >before any of those good works are actually done, No, I'm evaluating whether to give YOU credit for fairness before you show it. I *am* concerned that you haven't mentioned Cheap Bytes or -- what's the other one -- Juniper? -- at all on the Web site, even though they're doing a lot to popularize FreeBSD. >and frankly it's >both this attitude and the involvement of a principal who has always >seemed far more hostile to the project than kind which makes me very >disinclined to grant any such credit. If I were hostile to the project, I wouldn't even be TRYING to hammer out a way to do a distribution; I'd be flying to Canada to go cycling with Theo de Raadt by now. And I certainly wouldn't be trying to do something that would popularize FreeBSD. > If anything, we're starting from a position of deep demerit I could say the same from this vantage point. Perhaps it's the electronic medium, but the reception has sure seemed cold and hostile from this end of the wire. >and it makes me wonder if your >investors wouldn't be better off in finding someone else to spearhead >the relationship with their BSD-in-waiting, whichever of the two >options they might pick. Sorry, but I'm the one. I'm the only one with sufficient technical know-how, exposure to the open source community, experience in the software business, and big ideas for the future to be the front man. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 21:44: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A64C1517F for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:43:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06698 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 09:40:19 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 09:40:19 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Investors are getting concerned In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910214924.0471d100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >Well, at this point I'm still in the EARLY stages of due diligence, If Brett wants to do a distro, then I say go do your damn distro. The license allows it! You don't have to say _word one_ to Jordan or anyone else. Hmmm... Brett is a smart guy and he knows this. There must be another reason for all the chatter. Who wants to bet me that Brett is blowing smoke? I say the early stages of due diligence is something one says to a used car salesman when you want to go for a drive but have no interest in buying. Maybe if Brett gets his own BSD we will got some peace. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 10 22: 4:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F2C14C29 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21561 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:04:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:04:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD in the press Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Found this in the email-newsletter EDUCAUSE: YOU JUST CAN'T BEAT THIS PRICE Although Linux has been the focus of much recent publicity, other free programs called FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD have quietly helped keep the Web running for years. The three Unix-based operating systems originated at the University of California at Berkeley, emerging from code written in the late 1970s and early 1980s. A recent survey found that BSDs are used on almost 15 percent of servers connected to the Internet. Yahoo!, which owns the world's most heavily trafficked Web site, relies on FreeBSD to serve close to 80 million users per month. After trying a number of different operating systems, Yahoo! chose FreeBSD and has since become a key sponsor for the program. Meanwhile, Microsoft uses FreeBSD rather than its own Windows NT for the Hotmail e-mail service. FreeBSD continues to gain new users, and is sometimes favored over Linux because its license allows users to include the software in commercial products, while the Linux license requires users to make all uses of the software available for free. (Wall Street Journal 09/10/99) ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@mat.net | communications topic, C programming, Unix and 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry. It's all in the design! Greenbelt, MD 20770 | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386 (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 0:23:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE6714BD6 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:23:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA75376 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:23:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:23:38 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Applixware Message-ID: <19990911002338.A75342@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Any hope we will see Applixware for FreeBSD before the FreeBSDCon? Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 1: 7:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243F714C14 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:07:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA19703; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909110805.BAA19703@implode.root.com> To: Donald Burr Cc: Pamela Gross , John DeGroof , SBLUG Users , Charles Gousha , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: God, this is scary... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:30:15 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:05:29 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >http://www.uk.linux.org/FEATURE/Canada/A/54.jpg > >Sure makes you want to travel, doesn't it? Who needs gates directions, anyway. >I mean, if this is what the >airports are running, it makes you wonder what the **PLANES** are running, >doesn't it? *gulp* Gives a whole new meaning to "Blue Screen of Death". :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 2:43:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294E215406; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 02:43:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA79587; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:25:47 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:25:47 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: David Schwartz , "Matthew N. Dodd" , Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Message-ID: <19990911002547.B77268@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <000801befbd8$a2d3f4a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <4.2.0.58.19990910161538.044422c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910161538.044422c0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 04:36:57PM -0600 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Speaking with Doc. Project Manager Hat on ] On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 04:36:57PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > But I do agree that it would be nice to have an objective list of > >requirements for using the 'FreeBSD' moniker, if such a thing does not exist > >already. > > Good -- we have definite agreement on at least one point. (I think we may > already agree on some others as well, actually.) How should this be done? > Should it be submitted as a PR to the FreeBSD FAQ? Yes. And while you're about it, include details of other companies selling distributions of FreeBSD. I've certainly not had any commandments from WC, or anyone else involved in the project to 'censor' the details about other distributions -- as with a lot of things on FreeBSD, something's not there because no one's felt the need to do it, not because of any maliciousness on anyone's part. Diffs to the raw SGML will get committed faster than plain text, just because it's less work for me to do. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 6: 8:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [209.244.238.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB771545D for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 06:08:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25124; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 09:06:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199909111306.JAA25124@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal: Only Linux market share growing In-Reply-To: <199909110156.SAA19208@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Sep 10, 99 06:56:31 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 09:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Further confirmation that the BSDs, even all together, are not gaining > >market share. > > It's not further confirmation of anything unless they did an indepedant > study (which I'm quite sure they didn't). In other words, same re-hashed > bogus stats that they gleaned out of a well known and out of date study. Right. All in all, this WSJ article was the most visible and correct article I've seen in the popular press, and this old market share chestnut should earn a letter to the editor from someone who can show it wrong, if for no other reason then to try to get a letter to the editor in the PRINT version of the WSJ and keep FBSD in news. I was just about to fire off a private email to someone when I stumbled on this thread. jkh is quoted a few times, hint hint. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 9:30:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D85AA14DE5 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 09:30:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02396; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:30:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:30:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Adrian Wontroba Cc: Greg Quinlan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More SCO Propaganda In-Reply-To: <19990910235535.A23835@titus.stade.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org THis is extremely true, having known some of the people over at SCO. People like Kean Johnston and ROn Record (Kean was at outr FreeBSD dinner at USENIX) are believers in Open Source (ROn puts together the skunkware CD) and believe it or not, they are p0artial to FreeBSD for the Open Source OS choice (well at least Kean is ;)) I nticed thier committment to Open Source back at the '98 USENIX conference in New Orleans, and even more recently at the '99 conference in Monterey. I'm pretty impressed personally, and Ron's a pretty knowledgable guy. THey also employ alot of people in that department to put together the skunkware cd's as well as the other free software that they distribute now with the OS (gnome,kde,etc.) Kudos to SCO for maintaining the commercial UNIX of thier own, while really battling for Open Source. They do have to stay in business though, so good luck getting SYS V source ;) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > (moving from stable to chat) > > On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 11:37:50AM +0100, Greg Quinlan wrote: > > http://www.sco.com/profservices/linux/ > > > > I see that SCO is coming to the rescue of OpenSource Unix environments, with > > risk assessment, stability, and most of all expertise. > > > > I quote: > > > > "we believe that SCO has the largest staff of Open Source experts of any > > commercial software vendor." > > > > "As a founding sponsor of Linux International, SCO is a strong proponent of > > the Open Source movement, citing it as a driving force for innovation. Over > > the years, SCO has contributed source code to the movement." > > > > ~~~~~ > > > > It's just lucky for us that SCO is there to drive forward Open Source!! > > (huge sarcasm)!! > > > > Does anyone know if they done anything for FreeBSD Sability? :) > > Not all the sarcasm is deserved. Until I saw the light, and the cost > benefits, I ran SCO UNIX and then OpenDeathTrap. SCO had quite a > positive attitude to what is now called Open Source. Some of their > developers were very helpful and active in the SCO news groups and > mailing lists. Header files and libraries were available for the base > system so that you could use gcc rather than the ever so expensive > development system (I think). There were, still are for all I know, > the periodic Skunkware CDs, chock full of ported and compiled freeware, > which SCO would send to you for free. > > Their claim to having the largest staff of Open Source experts of any > commercial software vendor could well be true. I'm sure that they do > believe the Open Source approach and attendant innovation is overall > good for them. While they will loose a few sales to organisations who > switch to Linux or *BSD, the majority of their customers seem to be > prepared to pay lots for the product, and more for support. > > Yes, a competitor, but a friendly one. They don't seem to have any > ambitions to take over the entire OS market, just enlarge their niche. > > -- > Adrian Wontroba > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 11:51: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt014nb6.san.rr.com (dt014nb6.san.rr.com [24.30.129.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61FC153BB for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:51:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt014nb6.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02236; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37DAA48D.D1DD7EC2@gorean.org> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 11:50:53 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0904 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Burr Cc: Pamela Gross , John DeGroof , SBLUG Users , Charles Gousha , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: God, this is scary... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Donald Burr wrote: > > http://www.uk.linux.org/FEATURE/Canada/A/54.jpg > > Sure makes you want to travel, doesn't it? I mean, if this is what the > airports are running, it makes you wonder what the **PLANES** are running, > doesn't it? *gulp* I can go one better. I have it on very good authority (from someone who helped design the application software) that they use Windows NT for some of the systems on the space shuttles. Not the guidance systems (and my friend was bound by security clearance from telling me exactly what) but something. Now THAT is scary.... Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 12:54:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B341A15469 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 12:54:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05890; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:53:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:53:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910172941.00aa81c0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > But I need to talk with Walnut Creek anyway, so I'll ask some qustions > similar to the ones in your message. Then please do that in private and stop clogging this list with this now inane thread. If you'd just done this in the first place there would have been a lot fewer angry emails and annoyed people on this list. BTW, I'm still waiting for that list of recent publications so we can reference it in the Daemon News news section. Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Co-editor in Chief brett@daemonnews.org * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 13:13:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA09514C29 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 13:13:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA26423; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 06:31:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 13:31:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Doug Cc: Donald Burr , Pamela Gross , John DeGroof , SBLUG Users , Charles Gousha , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: God, this is scary... In-Reply-To: <37DAA48D.D1DD7EC2@gorean.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Doug wrote: > Donald Burr wrote: > > > > http://www.uk.linux.org/FEATURE/Canada/A/54.jpg > > > > Sure makes you want to travel, doesn't it? I mean, if this is what the > > airports are running, it makes you wonder what the **PLANES** are running, > > doesn't it? *gulp* > > I can go one better. I have it on very good authority (from someone who > helped design the application software) that they use Windows NT for some > of the systems on the space shuttles. Not the guidance systems (and my > friend was bound by security clearance from telling me exactly what) but > something. Now THAT is scary.... Although the chance to "accidentally" shoot an NT box into deep space would be quite satisfying. The only drawback is some alien race picking it up and coming to conquer us based on the assumption that we are a technically inept species and therefore conquest would be trivial. Although I think that the virus injected into the alien mothership in Independance Day by Jeff Goldblum was win2k, it could save our hides if packaged with enough M$ propoganda... Think about it, it dropped thier shields and made their systems all go haywire, sort of like that battleship that had to be towed back into bay a few months ago. If we could get hostile aliens to adopt NT we'd be safe for years and years. NT in space, the possibilities are endless. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 14:16:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CECF154E3 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 14:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:43021 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:16:06 -0400 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:15:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Doug Cc: Donald Burr , Pamela Gross , John DeGroof , SBLUG Users , Charles Gousha , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: God, this is scary... In-Reply-To: <37DAA48D.D1DD7EC2@gorean.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Doug wrote: > Donald Burr wrote: > > > > http://www.uk.linux.org/FEATURE/Canada/A/54.jpg > > > > Sure makes you want to travel, doesn't it? I mean, if this is what the > > airports are running, it makes you wonder what the **PLANES** are running, > > doesn't it? *gulp* > > I can go one better. I have it on very good authority (from someone who > helped design the application software) that they use Windows NT for some > of the systems on the space shuttles. Not the guidance systems (and my > friend was bound by security clearance from telling me exactly what) but > something. Now THAT is scary.... Think of it this way: how likely are you to be on a space shuttle? Somehow I'm not afraid for my life when a shuttle takes off :) Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 15:58: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu (exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D7414FA7 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:57:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu (ppp19.pm2a.wport.com [206.129.99.68]) by exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id SV1F8QXV; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:55:49 -0700 Message-ID: <37DADE82.DDBD629B@seattleu.edu> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:58:10 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jorgandar blackmoon Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Ethernet device References: <19990910230709.24160.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jorgandar blackmoon wrote: > > Ok i have a newbie question. I have a NetGear ethernet card, and > currently FreeBSD only seems to support 3Com (blahhhh...far overpriced > for it's worth...) and others. Since i'm going to be re-compiling my > kernel i'd like to know what I can do as to choose the "most > compatable" driver for my card. Anyone have any ideas? Intel EtherExpress available for around $40 on pricewatch. Best supported card in FreeBSD -- Eric Hodel - hodeleri@seattleu.edu | Customers will come to our Aspiring programmer & FPS minor demi-god. | 'home page' in unbelievable ------------------------------------------/ numbers and find out every- thing we want them to know. --Bill Gates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 17:21:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BAC14D42 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:21:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gousha@mail.apple.com) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com ([17.129.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14611 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv1.apple.com (scv1.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:21:12 -0700 Received: from [17.206.21.119] (gousha.apple.com [17.206.21.119]) by scv1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27587; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909120021.RAA27587@scv1.apple.com> Subject: Re: God, this is scary... Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:26:09 -0700 x-sender: gousha@mail.apple.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Charles Gousha To: "Alex Perel" , "Doug" Cc: "Donald Burr" , "Pamela Gross" , "John DeGroof" , "SBLUG Users" , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> > >> > http://www.uk.linux.org/FEATURE/Canada/A/54.jpg >> > >> > Sure makes you want to travel, doesn't it? I mean, if this is what the >> > airports are running, it makes you wonder what the **PLANES** are running, >> > doesn't it? *gulp* >> >> I can go one better. I have it on very good authority (from someone who >> helped design the application software) that they use Windows NT for some >> of the systems on the space shuttles. Not the guidance systems (and my >> friend was bound by security clearance from telling me exactly what) but >> something. Now THAT is scary.... > >Think of it this way: how likely are you to be on a space shuttle? Somehow >I'm not afraid for my life when a shuttle takes off :) All we need is one blue screen during a reentry... seven people burned up... government inquiries and re-evaluations... and goodbye to the Space Program for the next ten years. Charles Gousha - software tester | "We are the universe comic collector, anime fan, SF nut | made manifest, trying to Apple Computer Inc. - gousha@apple.com | figure itself out." BMUG volunteer - gousha@bmug.org | Delenn, Babylon 5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 17:51:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from br3-de0.dnsmgr.net (br3-de0.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D9014BD4 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:51:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@hamell.hpc1.com) Received: from heorot.hamell.hpc1.com (host74-41.iwbc.net [216.228.74.41]) by br3-de0.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA75307; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:51:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@hamell.hpc1.com) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:15:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Charles Gousha Cc: Alex Perel , SBLUG Users , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: God, this is scary... In-Reply-To: <199909120021.RAA27587@scv1.apple.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> I can go one better. I have it on very good authority (from someone who > >> helped design the application software) that they use Windows NT for some > >> of the systems on the space shuttles. Not the guidance systems (and my > >> friend was bound by security clearance from telling me exactly what) but > >> something. Now THAT is scary.... > > > >Think of it this way: how likely are you to be on a space shuttle? Somehow > >I'm not afraid for my life when a shuttle takes off :) > > All we need is one blue screen during a reentry... seven people burned > up... government inquiries and re-evaluations... and goodbye to the Space > Program for the next ten years. Or an even better scenario. Senate Inquiry Committe: "So, Mr. Gates your company knowingly released software with bugs in it for mission critical applications?" Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 18:28:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5607814DB3 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UTIL-INCH-2.0.0) with SMTP id VAA09328 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909120128.VAA09328@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:27:12 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always best Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is an article at Linux Weekly News http://www.lwn.net/ how BIND 8.2 will have some code which although still free to distribute it will not meet %100 the definition of Open Source. Highlights of the license are: -Free to use -Free to change as long as the they have the right to use the changes -Some parts of the code can only be used for DNS handling functions -If said parts of the code are changed they can not modify the API The "parts" I am refering to are the DNSsafe part of Bind. There are a number of people who seem to be outraged at this restrictions and are crying out for changing the parts of BIND that use DNSafe. So we are basically saying ... it works, it is free, we can change it, but.... let's go and re-do it anyway.. and with any luck we will leave some bugs or use not as safe methods. I am so happy I use FreeBSD with it's BSD license style. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 18:32: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B0E14D97 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:31:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UTIL-INCH-2.0.0) with SMTP id VAA09514 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909120131.VAA09514@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:30:23 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: How about another mailing list? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Many of the questions posted in the "questions" list are related to some of the server daemons (i.e. sendmail, apache, squid) commonly used with FreeBSD. How about a list for them? Freebsd-daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 18:33:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D5A14BEE for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA07582; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:03:31 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA12855; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:03:29 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:03:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Brett or no Brett? (was: Catching up) Message-ID: <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net>; from W Gerald Hicks on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 10:52:54PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 8 September 1999 at 22:52:54 -0400, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >>> I think it's high time you put your >>> money where your mouth is. Go away. We're not interested. > >> I note that you use the royal "we" here. Are you royalty? > > "We" means at least DES and myself. And me. I agree entirely. Should we have a vote? How many people would like to have Brett on the list (as a contributor), how many would prefer him to go away (or at least shut up)? I don't think he's done anything to merit being forcibly removed, but maybe a vote will help him get the message. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 18:37:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [207.239.68.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E7EB14D0E for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from francisco@natserv.com) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA19791 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:37:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909120137.VAA19791@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:36:05 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Running email servers from home the easy way. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone thinking of doing email at home should check out Dmail from http://netwinsite.com/ It is free for up to 5 users. So if you don't mind -getting binaries -getting the "free" version of a commercial product and only have a 5 user box then it may be for you. Installation could not have been easier... well maybe if they had a package. :-) Their prices seem very reasonable too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 19:59:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0A214F62 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 19:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08512; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 07:55:51 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 07:55:51 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? (was: Catching up) In-Reply-To: <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: >Should we have a vote? How many people would like to have Brett on >the list (as a contributor), how many would prefer him to go away (or >at least shut up)? I don't think he's done anything to merit being >forcibly removed, but maybe a vote will help him get the message. Brett, at least shut up. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 20:27: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9651714C8C for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:27:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 7509 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1999 03:26:59 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 12 Sep 1999 03:26:59 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:26:59 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Running email servers from home the easy way. In-Reply-To: <199909120137.VAA19791@vulcan.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Anyone thinking of doing email at home should check out Dmail > from http://netwinsite.com/ > It is free for up to 5 users. What do you get over qmail, postfix or even plain ole sendmail, besides limits? > > Their prices seem very reasonable too. What do you get over qmail, postfix, or even plain ole sendmail, besides a thinner wallet, no source code, and no security reviews? I don't see the point. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 20:53: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [207.239.68.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF8514D69 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 20:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from francisco@natserv.com) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA24908; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909120352.XAA24908@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "David Scheidt" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:50:45 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Running email servers from home the easy way. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:26:59 -0500 (CDT), David Scheidt wrote: >On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Francisco Reyes wrote: >> Anyone thinking of doing email at home should check out Dmail >> from http://netwinsite.com/ >> It is free for up to 5 users. > >What do you get over qmail, postfix or even plain ole sendmail, Easy installation of a POP server, MTA and list server. >besides limits? For some people who have a small setup this is a non issue. In my home FreeBSD I have only added one user. >What do you get over qmail, postfix, or even plain ole sendmail, besides a >thinner wallet, no source code, and no security reviews? See first answer. >I don't see the point. >David Scheidt All things in life have a price. You pay with your wallet or you pay with your time. Given that I did not pay for this program, it works with my current and foreseable future needs, I don't see why I shoudl not use it or recommend it to people in simmilar situations. To think that Open Source and all things free are the only and best solutions for ALL situations is depriving oneself from examining alternatives which may be better. Besides I spent more time in Dejanews searching for what POP to use than it took me to download and install Dmail. >over qmail, postfix or even plain ole sendmail, Postfix. Looked at the web page and seemed more complex than I cared to deal with. Sendmail may carry most of the mail in the web, but surely it is not due to how easy it is to use and implement. Qmail I never got to look at so I can't comment, but I read a message that said "qmail-pop3d" uses maildir format whereas sendmail doesn't use that "out of the box". One email I saw says "sendmail can be coaxed to do Maildir with maildrop as the delivery agent". Not very inviting. Is this the qmail you were thinking about? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 22:20:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED4F14D3B for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:20:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA11507; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 01:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 01:20:17 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? (was: Catching up) In-Reply-To: <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 8 September 1999 at 22:52:54 -0400, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > >>> I think it's high time you put your > >>> money where your mouth is. Go away. We're not interested. > > > >> I note that you use the royal "we" here. Are you royalty? > > > > "We" means at least DES and myself. > > And me. I agree entirely. Me too. > Should we have a vote? How many people would like to have Brett on > the list (as a contributor), how many would prefer him to go away (or > at least shut up)? Probably not necessary. If Brett remains true to form it won't be too much longer until he'll announce that he's leaving the list and FreeBSD in favor of ${OS of favor du jour}. Only to return shortly and start the next round. :0 * ^From:.*Brett Glass /dev/null works wonders. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 22:29: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from acme.sb.west.net (acme.sb.west.net [205.254.224.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1515714D69 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darklite@west.net) Received: from Cloud.west.net (250-250.adsl1.avtel.net [207.71.250.250]) by acme.sb.west.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D748B24B0D; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:26:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Larry Meyer" To: "Rick Hamell" , "Charles Gousha" Cc: "Alex Perel" , "SBLUG Users" , Subject: Re: God, this is scary... Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:57:38 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990912052635.D748B24B0D@acme.sb.west.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >> I can go one better. I have it on very good authority (from someone who > > >> helped design the application software) that they use Windows NT for some > > >> of the systems on the space shuttles. Not the guidance systems (and my > > >> friend was bound by security clearance from telling me exactly what) but > > >> something. Now THAT is scary.... > > > > > >Think of it this way: how likely are you to be on a space shuttle? Somehow > > >I'm not afraid for my life when a shuttle takes off :) > > > > All we need is one blue screen during a reentry... seven people burned > > up... government inquiries and re-evaluations... and goodbye to the Space > > Program for the next ten years. > > Or an even better scenario. > > Senate Inquiry Committe: "So, Mr. Gates your company knowingly released > software with bugs in it for mission critical applications?" > > > Rick > Haven't you read the 'critical applications' disclaimer on the license? They already have that base covered. Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 22:51: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0034614DB8 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:50:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09984; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:50:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:50:41 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nothing I've posted so far has been outside the charter of the list, and I've always done my best to be civil and to post on issues which are timely and relevant. My most recent messages, in which I have explicitly traced my course as I've researched the logistics of creating a new FreeBSD distribution, should be of interest to anyone who might one day want to do the same -- or who cares about how amenable FreeBSD might be to the creation of distributions other than those now sold by Walnut Creek CDROM. Nonetheless, there seems to be a relatively small group of people who can be relied upon to pounce on anyone one who asks questions that are, er, inconvenient. And it should be pointed out that Greg, in particular, has a special interest in the outcome of the current discussion. Walnut Creek publishes his book on FreeBSD and distributes it as part of several products. The introduction of new products from other sources might constitute competition for his publisher and also for his book and products that contain it. It is possible that his derogatory comments, quoted below, may be motivated, in whole or in part, by such concerns. It is also possible that some folks might find the issues on which I've been posting to be uninteresting to them personally. That's fine, and it often happens on mailing lists; it's hardly grounds to squelch the poster so long as the messages do not violate the charter of the list. However, any attempt to intimidate, shame, shun, or otherwise "gang up on" any contributor to the list -- especially when that person has raised valid issues -- is an attempt at censorship. Such activities should not be tolerated in ANY community -- and most especially not in an open source development community. --Brett Glass At 11:03 AM 9/12/99 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >Should we have a vote? How many people would like to have Brett on >the list (as a contributor), how many would prefer him to go away (or >at least shut up)? I don't think he's done anything to merit being >forcibly removed, but maybe a vote will help him get the message. > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 22:52:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37FDF14DB8 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:52:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 29915 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1999 05:52:17 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 12 Sep 1999 05:52:17 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:52:16 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Running email servers from home the easy way. In-Reply-To: <199909120352.XAA24908@vulcan.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:26:59 -0500 (CDT), David Scheidt wrote: > > >On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Francisco Reyes wrote: > >> Anyone thinking of doing email at home should check out Dmail > >> from http://netwinsite.com/ > >> It is free for up to 5 users. > > > >What do you get over qmail, postfix or even plain ole sendmail, > > Easy installation of a POP server, MTA and list server. > POP: su - root cd /usr/ports/mail/popper make && make install sed s/^#pop3/pop3/ /etc/inetd.conf > /tmp/inetd.conf && mv /tmp/inetd.conf \ /etc/inetd.conf MTA: sendmail works out of the box. List server: su - root cd /usr/ports/mail/majordomo make && make install configure it, which is a PIA, I admit. Alternativly, go grab listar from www.listar.org. It works quite nicely on *BSD. (I plan on turning it into a port, just as soon as I figure that out. Is there a reference on how to do that? ) > >besides limits? > > For some people who have a small setup this is a non issue. > In my home FreeBSD I have only added one user. > My home machines have zero users other than me. The machine on my desk at work has two or three users, runs a group mailing list, and such. All free software, 90% of which worked out of the box. (I made popper and listar; total time invested: less than 2 hours. > > All things in life have a price. You pay with your wallet or you > pay with your time. > Given that I did not pay for this program, it works with my > current and foreseable future needs, I don't see why I shoudl > not use it or recommend it to people in simmilar situations. That's fine. Most of what you get works out of the box, though the couple things that don't, are easy enough to make work. > > To think that Open Source and all things free are the only and > best solutions for ALL situations is depriving oneself from > examining alternatives which may be better. The best solutions in this case are the open source ones. There are certainly things that there are no good open source solutions for, and in those cases, I will use a commerical product. > > Postfix. Looked at the web page and seemed more complex than I > cared to deal with. Postfix configuration isn't fun. > Sendmail may carry most of the mail in the web, but surely it is > not due to how easy it is to use and implement. But for most people, it works out of the box on FreeBSD. It appears that for the people that the free version of dmail works for, will have the default sendmail setup work. > > Qmail I never got to look at so I can't comment, but I read a qmail's big advantage is that it scales really well to multiple servers delivering to the same mailfiles. I know of a number of 15,000 user shops that have qmail running and solving their problems. The shortcommings are a number of legacy tools (most notably, elm) which have no suport for maildir. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 23: 0: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2906814DB8 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id EDF8D755; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:59:53 -0700 From: Chris Piazza To: David Scheidt Cc: FreeBSD Chat list Subject: Re: Running email servers from home the easy way. Message-ID: <19990911225953.C600@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <199909120352.XAA24908@vulcan.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > Alternativly, go grab listar from www.listar.org. It works quite nicely on > *BSD. (I plan on turning it into a port, just as soon as I figure that out. > Is there a reference on how to do that? ) http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/porting.html -Chris -- /* cpiazza@home.net cpiazza@FreeBSD.org * *"The more I study religions the more I am convinced * * that man never worshipped anything but himself." * * --Sir Richard F. Burton */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 23:19:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D451114D2E for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA08343; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:49:51 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA14262; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:49:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:49:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Message-ID: <19990912154950.D10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 11:50:41PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 11 September 1999 at 23:50:41 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:03 AM 9/12/99 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Should we have a vote? How many people would like to have Brett on >> the list (as a contributor), how many would prefer him to go away (or >> at least shut up)? I don't think he's done anything to merit being >> forcibly removed, but maybe a vote will help him get the message. > > Nonetheless, there seems to be a relatively small group of people > who can be relied upon to pounce on anyone one who asks questions > that are, er, inconvenient. And it should be pointed out that Greg, > in particular, has a special interest in the outcome of the current > discussion. Walnut Creek publishes his book on FreeBSD and distributes > it as part of several products. The introduction of new products from > other sources might constitute competition for his publisher and also > for his book and products that contain it. Ah, yes, I suppose I do have an interest. But I didn't know that when I wrote what I wrote: I've long since given up reading what you have to say. As regards my attitude to competition, you might ask the groups of people writing FreeBSD books about my attitude to this "competition". > It is possible that his derogatory comments, quoted below, (I've moved them to the top to maintain the chronological sequence) > may be motivated, in whole or in part, by such concerns. Theoretically, yes. In practice, no. > It is also possible that some folks might find the issues on which > I've been posting to be uninteresting to them personally. That's > fine, and it often happens on mailing lists; it's hardly grounds to > squelch the poster so long as the messages do not violate the > charter of the list. Agreed. I get about 800 messages a day, most of which I delete unread based on the subject line. > However, any attempt to intimidate, shame, shun, or otherwise "gang up > on" any contributor to the list -- especially when that person has raised > valid issues -- is an attempt at censorship. Such activities should not be > tolerated in ANY community -- and most especially not in an open source > development community. The fact is, Brett, that I'm giving you special treatment. This isn't my own interest, it's in my perception of the interests of the project: I believe you're detrimental to them. Since I have no power to censor you, I suppose my message falls under the category "it's hardly grounds to squelch the poster so long as the messages do not violate the charter of the list." But you should have noticed how the vote has gone out so far. I doubt it'll be unanimous, but I'd expect a big majority to ask you to please shut up, or at least wipe the froth off your mouth. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 11 23:31:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA55814D2E for ; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:31:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA42899; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:41:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:41:15 +1000 From: John Birrell To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Message-ID: <19990912164115.X36761@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> References: <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 11:50:41PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 11:50:41PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: [...] > Nonetheless, there seems to be a relatively small group of people > who can be relied upon to pounce on anyone one who asks questions > that are, er, inconvenient. And it should be pointed out that Greg, > in particular, has a special interest in the outcome of the current > discussion. Walnut Creek publishes his book on FreeBSD and distributes > it as part of several products. The introduction of new products from > other sources might constitute competition for his publisher and also > for his book and products that contain it. It is possible that his > derogatory comments, quoted below, may be motivated, in whole or in > part, by such concerns. [...] I have no connection with Walnut Creek CDROM and I agree that you haven't contravened the list charter, but I'd still like you to shut up. By all means go ahead with your own FreeBSD distribution. If there are legal issues related to that, this list is not the place to discuss them. We are powerless to resolve them. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message