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Date:      Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:08:12 -0700
From:      Kent Stewart <kstewart@3-cities.com>
To:        Thor Legvold <tlegvold@c2i.net>
Cc:        freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Upgrade questions
Message-ID:  <39049B9C.20A69DD1@3-cities.com>
References:  <39036257.C004BD9B@3-cities.com> <00042414201300.00309@valhall.c2i.net>

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Thor Legvold wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2000, you wrote:
> > Thor Legvold wrote:
> > >
> <snip>
> > > All seems stable, I've restored the files I managed to save and have only done
> > > some simple configuration of the existing install to make things more livable.
> > > So far the system seems very responsive and useable, although certain elements
> > > of the KDE system just don't work for me.
> > >
> > > I'd now like to consider upgrading and have several questions about it. My
> > > upgrading relates to four areas:
> > >
> > > 1. 3.3-RELEASE (actually I think I already upp'ed it to -STABLE) to 4.0-RELEASE
> > > (or possibly -STABLE if it exists). I understand that all I need to do is
> > > download the boot floppies, reboot and use /stand/sysinstall to choose
> > > "upgrade" and everything goes automatically via ftp. I've done it once before
> > > and it seemed to work well, except for the partition glitch mentioned above. I
> > > didn't change (knowingly) partition information (it was after all an upgrade,
> > > not a new install) so I  imagine the problem was there from before. Are there
> > > other things I should know about 4.0 before I upgrade? 4.0 is an improvement
> > > over 3.3, right...? Or should I instead go with 3.4? There are so many versions
> > > available it's difficult to know what is the mainstream basically stable
> > > version eveyone uses - there is 3.3, 3.4, 4.0, 2.8, etc, all with "stable" (or
> > > at least "release") status. From my experience with other Unix systems, usually
> > > the latest (non-developmental) version is the most stable (bug fixes,
> > > optimizing of code, etc), i.e. the latest "release". Does that apply also to
> > > FreeBSD?
> >
> > I'm curious what parts of KDE don't work. I pretty much did a full
> > install of KDE and haven't found any but I'm not using them all.
> 
> kppp doesn't work.
> kvirc dumped core, now (after a fresh install) it seems to work ok.
> kpilot doesn't work, but it's probably a configuration issue on my end.
> krn doesn't work (some lib not being found), I've installed knews instead.

I have not tried t use any of these. The only mailer I have used on
FreeBSD is kmail (?). I have also used some of the games and the
sound. I also have kdevelop running.

> 
> > The source upgrade via cvsup to RELENG_4 can be troublesome. Once you
> > have finished cvsup'ing, you have an /usr/src/UPDATING document that
> > you must follow to the letter. I tried and it died in the middle of
> > the "make installkernel KERNEL=RUBY" with an error=64. At that point,
> > I had a mix of code and the easiest way out was a clean install. I've
> 
> Unerstood. I haven't (yet) built a new kernel. I've done it under Linux, and
> don't imagine any problem under FreeBSD, but the default kernel works fine for
> now so it's not highest on my list. I'd like first and foremost to get the
> system updated and install stuff I need for day to day "productivity" (AbiWord,
> NetScape or similar, spreadsheet, ICQ, email, etc), then I can start exploring
> the system in more depth as I get time.

The kernel is the easy part. You start with GENERIC and add your
special devices and remove the ones you don't need. Building the
GENERIC kernel is where my upgrade to 4.0 died.

> 
> > never had an upgrade from source fail but this one did. My system
> > needed restructuring because I still had my novice install with a /
> > partition that included /usr, /tmp, and /var. The rebuild left / as a
> > 100MB partition and the other three had their own partitions. The
> > sizes were what I considered as appropriate for my needs.
> 
> I upgraded my previous install, first to 3.4, then to 4.0-RELEASE via ftp and
> /stand/sysinstall. It seemed to work perfecctly. Of course there was the
> overlapping partition problem that ended up hosing both my Windows and BSD
> partitions....
> 
> I've installed initially with separate /, /usr, /usr/local, /var, /home and
> /tmp partitions. With 4.5GB of disk I have given the partitions room to grow
> without wasting too much space. /usr, /usr/local and /home have over 1GB each.
> I've used BSD 3.3 Unix (NextStep) for many years and have tried Linux several
> times, but never really got to like it (Linux). So I figured FreeBSD was a
> perfect choice, since I already know a bit about BSD. Unfortunatley I wasn't
> able to unstall it untill recently because of driver issues, my SCSI card only
> appeared as supported a half year ago or so (DPT).

My sizes are as follows: / (100MB), /var (500MB), /swap (300MB), /tmp
(1.5GB) and /usr is what ever is left in the slice. A df shows / as
using 31%. I have excess but it was an easy number and was really easy
to load before cylinder 1024.

> 
> Back to my question - I'm not interested in a new install, because I don't have
> the 4.0 media and don't wan't to wait 6-8 weeks for it (what it takes to order
> on line and wait for the post and customs, by which time it costs me twice what
> Walnut Creek takes). I have an ISDN link which puts an upgrade at around 2-4
> hours depending on what packages I choose. So what I would like to know is if
> I'm better off doing a source upgrade (via CVS or other means) or a
> /stand/sysinstall "package" upgrade.

Have you thought about downloading the iso. It is 650MB but you can
burn it onto a CDROM and then you have the ability to do a full
install if things go wrong. I must have spent about 40 hours
downloading it. You must have a mirror site close by. The ftp program
I use will do a recovery download. I've seen where you can do that on
FreeBSD also with the "reget" command. My ISP drops my connection
shortly after 8 hours of connect time. I knew when they were going to
do this and let the system redial and recovered the ftp session. The
only problem would be if the dpt scsi isn't built into the 4.0 GENERIC
kernel. The iso is also supposed to be bootable and that makes a
recovery a little bit easier.

> 
> > The end result was a number of improvements. I was happy that I
> > upgraded but I spent of couple of unhappy days until I got back to an
> > operating setup. My dial out worked the night that I started the clean
> 
> This is to be expected, IMO.

There have been a few problems with ppp. The way you -auto start it
has changed. If you have an internal modem, there are things you have
to do before you can use your modem. I have my 56kb modem on com2. It
is always there. I have a script that I run from /usr/local/etc/rc.d.
That still works but you can also have the ppp startup command in
/etc/start_if.tun0. One of these days I will try the /etc/ way.

> 
> > install. I had copied /etc onto a backup file system that wasn't
> > affected by the restructure. I had complications from an overclocked
> 
> Sounds like a good idea. I copy everything out to a jaz cartridge prior to
> upgrading.

I have a Jaz 2GB and I've also moved my Conner Autoloader dat tape on
to my FreeBSD server. I could move the Jaz with only a few minutes of
work. The dat tape failed but I didn't test it before I trashed
everything. The first time I didn't and the first time that the tape
was bad. Next time I write and then check :).

> 
> > Celeron 300a that was dying in the middle of all of this. Once I
> > resinstalled the slower Celeron 433a, everything worked fine and the
> 
> I'm on a 300A, it's been running since I bought it at 450MHz with no problems
> under any of the 4 OS's I use. Rock solid. Mainboard is an Abit BH6. I've
> occasionally switched it down when I suspected OC'ing hangs, but these turned
> out to be Windows problems (Microsoft), not the hardware. I don't recall how
> long I've had the new board/CPU, but I think over a year now.

Mine appeared to be running fine and then I tried to build
XFree86-3.3.6 from sources and the system hung in the middle. I tried
it again and it hung in a different spot. I popped the case open and
the thermal conducting pad on the heatsink had been cooked in a few
places. It was too late at that point. I'm now running a 433a with
PC-100 memory. The PC-100 memory was worth about 15% in throughput
when I run setiathome. That is a long way from what I saw running the
FSB at 100MHz but it was still quite a bit faster than 66MHz.

> 
> > clean install involved the least effort on my part since I started
> > using FreeBSD-2.2.8.
> 
> Of course. But since I don't have the media.... I suppose I could download the
> ISO and burn it onto a CD under Win98, but I think the ISO is significantly
> larger than an upgrade would be (not sure, MB/download time-wise what the
> difference would be).

MUCH larger. I should have read ahead to this point. I downloaded the
iso and burned it onto a CD using Win 2000. EZ-CD Creator will burn an
image. This is a 650MB file but it has most of the packages and the
system src. It is a good backup in case something goes wrong. The
packages are current with FreeBSD 4.0. You have a full set that is
easy to add packages as you need them. I haven't followed anyone doing
an upgrade from the CDROM and don't have any idea how that would go.

> 
> > > 2. XFree86 3.3.4 - XFree86 3.3.6 or possibly the new 4.0 that just came out (if
> > > I recall correctly). Should I remove the 3.3.4 package and reinstall the newer
> > > version, or can I install over the old to preserve my settings? Should one use
> > > the ports/packages collection directly, go via /stand/sysinstall (which
> > > basically seems to do the same thing, but is automated) or compile from source?
> >
> > I haven't tried XFree86-4.0 yet.
> 
> Do I uninstall 3.3.4 first, or install 4.0 over it?

That is another one. The iso comes with 3.3.6 on it. Having it around
saves a lot of time finding things. I keep following the threads on
4.0 and I'm not ready to upgrade to it just yet. I keep thinking about
maybe tomorrow but tomorrow is recursive :). When it comes on the
FreeBSD CD, sounds like the latest appropriate point. 

When you download XFree86 3.3.6 or 4.0, there will be instructions on
how to upgrade. Look at the RELNOTE and README. They have a list of
files for your setup. I copy them into something like /usr1/x11. Then
they have you extract all of the programs in that directory while you
are in /usr/X11R6. The extract program comes with XFree86. They have a
sequence with a preinst.sh, extract, and a postinst.sh. You don't
usually copy in the config files because you have a running system. I
typically add the fonts because you never know if they have fixed
something. Depending on the locale, you may want the fonts for a
specific language.

> 
> > > 3. KDE 1.1.1 - KDE 1.1.2 - much of the same questions apply here, and it
> > > requires several packages that aren't in 3.3 (or 4.0 I beleive, Mesa, QT, some
> > > other stuff). When I try to install the newer packages they conflict with other
> > > installed stuff. Should I remove older versions before installing newer ones,
> > > or can one "upgrade" by simply installing over the old install (I notice that
> > > pkg_info then reports several versions, and it might make removing one later
> > > impossible if they have common files....). When trying to remove older versions
> > > I get messages about other packages requiring them, and the removal is aborted.
> > > I could force removal, but wouldn't that mess up the dependency information?
> > > Even after I reinstall a newer version?
> >
> > Normally, I follow the instructions from "pkg_version -c". It
> > frequently shows a "-f" option to force the removal. Just don't do
> > anything to develop the uzi_foot_syndrome, i.e., modify your x-libs
> > while you are running x. I think KDE is really frequent contributor to
> > the ufs awards - the computer equivalent of the Darwin Award :).
> 
> I'll look into pkg_version -c, I've seen -f, but don't want everything getting
> out of sync with each other. What's ufs awards? What's Darwin award?

ufs (Uzi_foot_syndrome) that is where you shoot your foot with an Uzi
machine pistol. I think the Darwin Award is in the Jargon file. It is
awarded to you postumously after you do something dumb that improves
the gene pool. There are stories about people doing things like adding
a jato (5000 kg thrust motors to help airplanes take off from short
airport runways) to the back of a car and flying into a mountain at
600kph well above the road. Most of these stories are urban legion.
Fables that have been told so many times that people begin to belive
they really happened. If someone had really done that, they would have
been awarded the Darwin Award.

> 
> > > 4. General upgrading of non-system components (programs, libraries, etc)
> > > For example, Netscape Communicator 4.61 to 4.72 or newer, AbiWord 0.5.5 to
> > > 0.7.6, etc. Should one uninstall the exisiting package/port before installing
> > > the newer one, or simply install over the old one? Some programs (either ports,
> > > packages or free standing dists) require newer (or different) versions of
> > > certain libraries, toolkits, etc. Should one go ahead and upgrade this as well,
> > > or install it in parallell to the older version? It seems the system components
> > > only end up less and less in sync with each other that way.
> >
> > I installed Netscape for Linux 4.72 at my original install. It worked
> > on the first connection to the Internet. What more can I say. Murphy
> 
> As does my 4.61 version (although the fonts/scaling often make it impossible to
> read a page).
> 
> > usually sits on my shoulder and if there are 2+ bugs, I will see one
> > of them. Don't uninstall until you have a good build of a port. Then,
> > you do the pkg_delete and "make install". A package is already build
> > and you need to do the pkg_delete first and then pkg_add.
> 
> And when pkg_delete refuses because of dependancies, what do you do then..?
> BTW - where do you store your src files once downloaded? I learned to put them
> in /usr/src or /usr/local/src, but this doesn't seem to go well with FreeBSD's
> directory sttructure.

I haven't had the -f not work. You want to use the ports whenever this
is possible. It saves a lot of work on your part because someone has
already spent the time to automate the installation. The current port
count is over 3,200. You do a pkg_add with a package because you
already have the binary files. When you use the port system, the
downloads go into /usr/ports/distfiles. When they are expanded by the
make, the source goes into
/usr/ports/<port_type>/<port_name>/work/<source files go here>. The
"port_type" can be something like devel, graphics, textproc or what
ever is appropriate. You can see the tree struct with something like
"du" from /usr/ports. I started out with two 3.1GB drives and a 2.5GB
drive. One has a previous release on it and was replaced with a 13.6GB
UDMA-33 drive. Then, the 2.5GB drive died and the smallest drive in
the local stores was 13GB. Since then I traded an old dual socket 7 md
and 2xP133's for a 4.3GB IBM uw. I added it for testing purposes. I
have lots of space. 

I was given some CFLAGS parameters on -hacker to make my system build
faster. I just mv /usr/obj to /usr/obj.old, did a mkdir /usr/obj, and
started trying new combinations. Right now -pipe produces the fastest
buildworld. More later.

Kent

> 
> > Good luck,
> > Kent
> 
> Thanks,
> Thor

-- 
Kent Stewart
Richland, WA

mailto:kstewart@3-cities.com
http://www.3-cities.com/~kstewart/index.html
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Hunting Archibald Stewart, b 1802 in Ballymena, Antrim Co., NIR
http://www.3-cities.com/~kstewart/genealogy/archibald_stewart.html


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