From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 17:43:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B876C2B22E0 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic301-32.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-32.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4969rp51v7z3GP8 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: r8XASroVM1kqvgCpi..ZiPLN7k.ZTokbpIuUD95whmHFdQdp5qV.it1YJ_dHMwf 3Jt3Kpe_jwCyMBReA990cfCqDg5mDwKwuFvmc_cInt_SeWqvXkKhBIO1m1dIBxuNSNAEHMjLb1IO a_ZLyiTbKFha4dly9DWGoPQLbqOLsGXhXNAekiFix11HssWsdirUFzlt7G5QBPZdCu01WOp5UfM_ kCJLTwgXCRtx7KhjBicT9WYZyZHYkG9A3gz4RVrp_GeuOJXenpywrc1YsvKEnAjXx4cV8HmGXWXh k6MIJzlX3KUyVXMwUBF1eyFeObM.rCg.CH4pUeQu6nozH89wYg.o.4MMoVatc0aP18CeqrgFjXvC TwjCaPNRC1Rpw0imtHkSEX1sX9YixT1QQItKIMq4YQvXhQvw1It_bkWgzRfOcq7lourfU7C7g6hR gw8TpZMdu1JY.JWjPfQhoQ2ZWUAFRwDQ454KGyHEhebZljReN6ho7AcTb6MLeiFn02kfL0V5WgK4 muN7RCyz5H61UZC3tllFjCWggNpAMnpT8ogk9pePWtR1uuSN0I20uivsy0nWyG5XKpA81Up6nbYc sK9PTp4SWBLlZnYX0VtsL4WONbNTJEv82NPDNau4SoFCfFUO1ZfnrHlKtMmb0xTBoAz0INpQbOSg NFKed0vb19RXWLzXKDQkebbZktI5PT7X5taYtczxB3Yd9v1hoBUT.t3USRt4QSiT9TF5lP..4DVE MwE0OTwFrrQRexw_VuO.x8pc5bG6DA4Up.qV0dPCvX54ejD.t7wKFVg.qD4oUC.3tNPkDnZHkaJJ 8Wg_dIdNn4pnbkkrpPPNtU8eTpXAM8tPZCxM7JvgE0JDBrgsE8kIl6ntmj623zY.U.0MZXpb6z1s G1ZAEO4oaXv6kE6Tq5ZruQ8ZOA4n803Z9Y8dWfBJ_E48fBM37X6IZhe_KeTWA0yjtKD72w8sbj4S CiXiIkAsdSG2kesQuHkUxLm5i59tbWEnvdy.lkhDebNHJ.i5G1jr7mCb1ouBbl_N27Xjb9unsClA MiqvXrAp9VC5xOzsEgaqeo7eiSNyh_x4jPzO0o92cPO_kaHol7xVXLFrTa2CZi76BPnbZzw1eetB fqSMc2g_jKRNhvu3iJCJP1IFbauCsnE5bZxjhXZVqwAsqNZcdMm02ZzScciEHepOpFnc0BgUxF5o aT1fvkAXBHqEuAZJC5AEuLjh47SVbbudF0MZ93bSXHDsiC7syFt_kRVYO8hSm_x4rYaOhcy9zdUL JZsuMLWUAFYC0tESlx_4Q.CR1aL2zzlghVxH2xWCJnb7z8Fnqp9LldeM4kxmfCZxaY2.ZX4jfmh5 CwIhBm7_Bz.XT7_H_RwRQQY2wvJxO30cJpCVxyc55Dj6_EY3CDzM_4RU- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:05 +0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:01 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Polytropon , Robert Huff Cc: FreeBSD , "@lbutlr" Message-ID: <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15739 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:56.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/56.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4969rp51v7z3GP8 X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.13 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.27)[-0.269,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[201.184.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.14)[0.142,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.05), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.15), asn: 36646(0.92), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[201.184.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:07 -0000 :D=C2=A0 I love it when I see reactions to problems like this on FreeBSD..= .. :D Personally, I see a need for an alternative weighing though.=C2=A0 There ar= e a HUGE amount of apps that make use of X.=C2=A0 Here's my thought:=C2=A0 = Can Xorg learn from Wayland?=C2=A0 Could they, as a stop gap measure, imple= ment a compositor similar to Wayland's method?=C2=A0 Enhance communications= via a default TLS methodology that can be imbedded in all X communications= ? Don't get me wrong, I believe X is archaic and has been patched constantly = to 'enhance' functionality or close security issues and it should be replac= ed. However, all functionality needs to stay intact and I would think that ther= e could be some type of shim that allows existing programs to be compiled a= s they always have for X and it just translates to Wayland's APIs.=C2=A0 If= Wayland can offset the speed loss of the shim with its speed enhancements,= it should be invisible to the user. Am I making sense?=C2=A0 ( I believe this is what I'm seeing below ) Paul On Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 1:30:23 PM EDT, Robert Huff wrote: =20 =20 =20 Polytropon writes: >=C2=A0 On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >=C2=A0 > On 20 Apr 2020, at 02:24, Ihor Antonov wro= te: >=C2=A0 > > But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X1= 1 >=C2=A0 >=20 >=C2=A0 > Perhaps. A tiny percentage. The rest will continue as they are no= w, >=C2=A0 > avoiding X11 at all costs because it is insecure bloat that >=C2=A0 > interferes with the desired operation of the machine. >=C2=A0=20 >=C2=A0 Depends. If Wayland can offer all features that X11 offers at >=C2=A0 the moment, there will probably be no major problem in transition. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Speaking only for myself (though I think there are a _lo= t_ of folks who would agree): I have no particular loyalty to X.=C2=A0 If there's an alternative that's faster/more secure/easier to {install, maintain, upgrade}/[other unspecified benefits] ... what the are we waiting for?=C2=A0 Can I be a lab rat? =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _If_. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What I _think_ I'm hearing is "Wayland is a better solut= ion that isn't ready yet.=C2=A0 Not fully integrated with FreeBSD; not even ready in the (current) Platonic ideal." =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Am I wrong? =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also: if I understand the conversation, Wayland works OK= when client and server are the same machine, but not over a network? =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Opportunistically, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Robert Huff =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =20 _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 17:59:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84EB62B2BC1 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:59:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (dontpanic.foucry.net [80.67.176.134]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496BCN3zHqz3HWQ for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:59:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.foucry.net (mithril.foucry.net [127.0.0.1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C1118D58 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:59:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:59:10 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: About wayland Message-ID: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496BCN3zHqz3HWQ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=foucry.net (policy=none) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.57 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[foucry.net : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[mithril.localdomain]; HFILTER_HELO_NORES_A_OR_MX(0.30)[mithril.localdomain]; IP_SCORE(-0.97)[ipnet: 80.67.160.0/19(-2.70), asn: 20766(-2.13), country: FR(0.00)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20766, ipnet:80.67.160.0/19, country:FR]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:59:13 -0000 Hello dear all, Please excuse my ignorancebut could some body make a post about waylan. There's a new thread about wayland, you talk of it like it's "your old friend since elementary school » but it's not my case. As I understood it's and "evolution", another way to make graphical disply, the primary one is X11. Could you take a little bit of your time to explain what's different, new,, the avantages, the disavantages, etc… But please stay at a high level :-) Thank you very much in advance for that. As usual, take care . -- Jacques Foucry