From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 25 15:51:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE4B37B405; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAPNpN571945; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:51:23 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: advocacy@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:51:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: anonymous ftp article - technical reviewers please Reply-To: dan@langille.org Message-ID: <3C013DA8.12172.9C49835@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A reader has submitted an article on anonymous ftp. I'm looking for technical reviewers. Please email me off list for the URL to the article. cheers. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 26 1:28: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5466B37B405 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 01:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([194.78.144.27]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fAQ9RmG01199; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:27:49 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011122224913.01cd3e48@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011122224913.01cd3e48@threespace.com> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:56:55 +0100 To: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: New "Powered By FreeBSD" Nokia Operator Logo... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:50 PM -0500 on 11/22/01, Technical Information wrote: > Do you happen to know which Nokia phones happen to support this > graphic logo feature? I'm still having problems figuring out > custom ring tones. :-/ It's only supported on the newer phones. I think the 6150 was one of the first to support them, and I seem to recall that everything since has also supported them. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 26 1:28: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3CF37B416 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 01:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.6] ([194.78.144.27]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fAQ9RtG01302; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:27:56 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011123162453.00bb86d0@199.107.2.1> References: <3.0.5.32.20011123162453.00bb86d0@199.107.2.1> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:00:04 +0100 To: Mike Doyle , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Looking for sendmail logfile analysis tool Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:24 PM +0000 on 11/23/01, Mike Doyle wrote: > Can't find anything in the Ports, though I may be looking in the > wrong place, nor do any of the links on the sendmail.org site > seem immediately obvious. Go to and look at their "lire" package. The last versions I saw were getting to the point where they were almost as good as "pflogsumm" (the best log summary output I've seen for any MTA), and since they have separate parsing & reporting modules, it will work exactly the same with sendmail, postfix, & qmail. They have a web report module now, and a lot more. If it doesn't do everything you want, they're more than happy to accept any suggestions or code you may have. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 26 13:24:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4681237B41D for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([65.8.240.251]) by femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011126212450.BIHH29235.femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:24:50 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011126154301.01f80268@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:24:55 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Technical Information Subject: Re: New "Powered By FreeBSD" Nokia Operator Logo... In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011122224913.01cd3e48@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011122224913.01cd3e48@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here in the U.S. where TDMA is King, the only phone that I know that definitely supports custom graphics is the 8260. There may be others, but it seems to be a well-kept secret which ones support it. Even Nokia's site doesn't offer any information on which phones support the feature or how to use it. There's apparently no sense that it's a feature people really want here. :-/ --Chip Morton At 03:56 AM 11/26/2001, you wrote: >At 10:50 PM -0500 on 11/22/01, Technical Information wrote: > >> Do you happen to know which Nokia phones happen to support this >> graphic logo feature? I'm still having problems figuring out >> custom ring tones. :-/ > > It's only supported on the newer phones. I think the 6150 was > one of the first to support them, and I seem to recall that everything > since has also supported them. > >-- >Brad Knowles, > >H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 >Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes >MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il >wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP >dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ >uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 10:33:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spitfire.velocet.net (spitfire.velocet.net [216.138.223.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F1937B405 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (H112.C233.tor.velocet.net [216.138.233.112]) by spitfire.velocet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8269A44A9DB for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:33:45 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: David To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Video format's and sizes Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:32:08 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20011127183345.8269A44A9DB@spitfire.velocet.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (I figured i would send this too chat, because it's not really specific too FreeBSD in itself.) I'm looking at transfering VCR video's to cd or dvd if necessary, ( preferably cd) but am uncertain as too what size's I would be dealing with. ( dealing with video "sizes" between 1.5 and 2 hours) I'm wandering if someone has done this, and/or what would the best format too convert the video too, and would it be possible to be fit a 2hr video on a cd? Thanks David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 11:48:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3D337B416 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.19] ([194.78.144.27]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fARItnG04323; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:55:49 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011127183345.8269A44A9DB@spitfire.velocet.net> References: <20011127183345.8269A44A9DB@spitfire.velocet.net> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:55:43 +0100 To: David , chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Video format's and sizes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:32 PM -0500 on 2001/11/27, David wrote: > I'm looking at transfering VCR video's to cd or dvd if necessary, ( > preferably cd) but am uncertain as too what size's I would be dealing > with. ( dealing with video "sizes" between 1.5 and 2 hours) This is precisely what is done with VideoCD (i.e., VCD) format. > I'm wandering if someone has done this, and/or what would the best format > too convert the video too, and would it be possible to be fit a 2hr video > on a cd? I'd recommend you check out what is done to produce a VCD before doing too much else. If you get the format correct, your VideoCD will automatically play in any computer or video equipment that is capable of mounting a CD and reading the VideoCD format. VCDs aren't nearly as popular in the US, but are much more common in Europe and Asia. Most better DVD creation software should also be capable of creating VideoCDs, and burning them on most any standard CD-R. The latest version of the "platinum" products from Roxio (Easy CD Creator Platinum for PCs, and Toast Platinum for Macs) are both capable of creating VideoCDs from suitable input files. See for more information. Of course, this may not help you under FreeBSD, but at least it tells you that this sort of thing is possible and you know what the format needs to be, and now you just need to find the suitable program. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 11:55:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA5537B416 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fARJqtL99182; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:52:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:52:55 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video format's and sizes Message-ID: <20011127145254.A99072@techsquare.com> References: <20011127183345.8269A44A9DB@spitfire.velocet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 07:55:43PM +0100 Organization: TechSquare Inc X-PGP-ID: 1AF3984E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org you should be able to use gnu's vcdimager: http://www.gnu.org/software/vcdimager/vcdimager.html to author the vcd itself. of course your going to have to get the data off the vcr through a capture card and then convert the stream to a compliant format. http://www.vcdhelp.com may be of some assistance in telling you what the format specs are and what players are compatible with vcd's. jamie. On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 07:55:43PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > Of course, this may not help you under FreeBSD, but at least it > tells you that this sort of thing is possible and you know what the > format needs to be, and now you just need to find the suitable > program. ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 13: 2: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1FE37B405; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.6/8.11.4) id fARL1xf37018; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:01:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:01:59 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes Message-ID: <20011127130158.A36971@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200111271653.fARGrhl54358@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200111271653.fARGrhl54358@freefall.freebsd.org>; from phk@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 08:53:43AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 08:53:43AM -0800, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > phk 2001/11/27 08:53:43 PST >=20 > Modified files: > games/fortune/datfiles fortunes=20 > Log: > This string of coincidences was too good to let pass. > =20 > Obtained from: BBC World Service on 9410kHz > =20 > Revision Changes Path > 1.63 +22 -0 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes But wait, there are more cosmical coincidences at work here! A quick search of the web reveals the following claims (some are no doubt apocryphal) --- The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain seven letters. Both were particularly concerned with civil rights. Both wives lost their children while living in the White House. Both Presidents were shot on a Friday. Both were shot in the head. Both were assassinated by Southerners. John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln was born in 1839. Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy was born in 1939. Both assassins were known by their three names. Both names compromise fifteen letters. Mrs. Kennedy advised Lincoln not to go to the theatre and Mrs. Lincoln advised Kennedy not to go to Dallas. Abraham Lincoln died in 1865. Andrew Johnson died in 1875. John F. Kennedy died in 1963; Lyndon Johnson died in 1973. Both Johnsons faced the next election against men whose names began with "G" (Grant and Goldwater.) Both successors left the presidency in disgrace without running for reelection. Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials. Lincoln was shot in the Ford theatre and Kennedy was shot in a Ford Lincoln. Both presidents were shot while seated next to their wife. --- This guy thinks that all these "concidences" are nothing really that special at all: http://www.kilty.com/l_and_k.htm This guy thinks it's proof that Kennedy was the reincarnation of Lincoln: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen9.html Kris --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8A/9GWry0BWjoQKURAqD5AJ4mGHaQzHEAJxwKFujYN8gnzkBhAQCeN7Vq 2Mdld8S44Em1zwmMZ5V8GMg= =DYTh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 14:14: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F25237B41E for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28127 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2001 22:14:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 27 Nov 2001 22:14:09 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011127130158.A36971@citusc17.usc.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:13:53 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Nov-01 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 08:53:43AM -0800, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> phk 2001/11/27 08:53:43 PST >> >> Modified files: >> games/fortune/datfiles fortunes >> Log: >> This string of coincidences was too good to let pass. >> >> Obtained from: BBC World Service on 9410kHz >> >> Revision Changes Path >> 1.63 +22 -0 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes > > But wait, there are more cosmical coincidences at work here! A quick > search of the web reveals the following claims (some are no doubt > apocryphal) You have way, way too much free time on your hands. Aren't there some advisories you could be putting out? :-P > This guy thinks that all these "concidences" are nothing really that > special at all: http://www.kilty.com/l_and_k.htm This was quite entertaining. > This guy thinks it's proof that Kennedy was the reincarnation of > Lincoln: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen9.html This one makes a bunch of statements many of which are not coincidental at all (both sucessors were Vice-Presidents, gee, you think?) and others were debunked by the first one. The statements have no supporting material used to actually draw the conclusion at the end. > Kris -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 15: 3:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5C037B419 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fARN3MK83551 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:03:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:03:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes In-Reply-To: <20011127130158.A36971@citusc17.usc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Both names compromise fifteen letters. All hail Discordia! > Abraham Lincoln died in 1865. Andrew Johnson died in 1875. All hail Discordia! If you get that, then you really are a conspiracy buff! :) Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 16:32:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB87737B405 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:32:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAS0WJS78637; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:02:19 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011127183345.8269A44A9DB@spitfire.velocet.net> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:02:19 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: David Subject: RE: Video format's and sizes Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Nov-2001 David wrote: > (I figured i would send this too chat, because it's not really specific > too FreeBSD in itself.) > > I'm looking at transfering VCR video's to cd or dvd if necessary, ( > preferably cd) but am uncertain as too what size's I would be dealing > with. ( dealing with video "sizes" between 1.5 and 2 hours) > > I'm wandering if someone has done this, and/or what would the best format > too convert the video too, and would it be possible to be fit a 2hr video > on a cd? Are you enamoured with a particular format? Eg MPEG1 is pretty crappy - it does have the advantage of playing most DVD players though (ie if you make a VCD). No idea about DVD mastering. Another possibility is to use some compression format like DivX (eg MPEG4). That would get you a good compression ratio, but at the disadvantage of only being playable on a PC. I don't know of any easy to use software for FreeBSD that can do this. I have, however, used a BT878 card (cheap), Virtual Dub (free), DScaler (free) and OpenDivx (free) under Windows (not free) to capture stuff off VCR with relative ease. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 17: 8: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3D937B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fAS13rR03762; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:03:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:03:53 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video format's and sizes Message-ID: <20011127200353.A3707@techsquare.com> References: <20011127183345.8269A44A9DB@spitfire.velocet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 11:02:19AM +1030 Organization: TechSquare Inc X-PGP-ID: 1AF3984E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Your pretty much stuck with mpeg1 IIRC if your doing VCD. SVCD requires mpeg2 and has some gains over mpeg1. I dont remember how much of that is picture quality. My recommendation would be a G4 Tower with a superdrive, a copy of Final Cut Pro 2, and the DVD tools from apple. Would cost you about $5k but it would be alot easier than finding compatible FreeBSD software. As a mentioned before. http://www.vcdhelp.com has alot of information on authoring (S)VCD's and the formats needed. And I believe a few of the tools they mention have linux ports or at least provide src. best, jamie. On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 11:02:19AM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 27-Nov-2001 David wrote: > > (I figured i would send this too chat, because it's not really specific > > too FreeBSD in itself.) > > > > I'm looking at transfering VCR video's to cd or dvd if necessary, ( > > preferably cd) but am uncertain as too what size's I would be dealing > > with. ( dealing with video "sizes" between 1.5 and 2 hours) > > > > I'm wandering if someone has done this, and/or what would the best format > > too convert the video too, and would it be possible to be fit a 2hr video > > on a cd? > > Are you enamoured with a particular format? > > Eg MPEG1 is pretty crappy - it does have the advantage of playing most DVD > players though (ie if you make a VCD). > > No idea about DVD mastering. > > Another possibility is to use some compression format like DivX (eg MPEG4). > That would get you a good compression ratio, but at the disadvantage of only > being playable on a PC. > > I don't know of any easy to use software for FreeBSD that can do this. I have, > however, used a BT878 card (cheap), Virtual Dub (free), DScaler (free) and > OpenDivx (free) under Windows (not free) to capture stuff off VCR with relative > ease. > > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 19: 3:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spitfire.velocet.net (spitfire.velocet.net [216.138.223.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA89837B416 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (H112.C233.tor.velocet.net [216.138.233.112]) by spitfire.velocet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E78144A996; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:01:40 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: David To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video format's and sizes Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:00:01 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] References: <20011127183345.8269A44A9DB@spitfire.velocet.net> In-Reply-To: Cc: Brad Knowles , Jamie Oulman , "Daniel O'Connor" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20011128030140.6E78144A996@spitfire.velocet.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks Brad, Jamie, and Daniel for all the great info and links! This whole VCR Video > CD/DVD copying/editing/making is all quite new too me, but your help will certainly make doing it so much easier. I'm not "hooked" any specifc format or media per se, although CD would be preferable, and DVD is absolutely neccessary, but i'm sure things will start looking a whole lot clearer after i get finished with all the reading i have too do now. :) These list's ( FreeBSD) never cease to amaze me with the amount knowledge and information one can receive when asking questions. Now, if you will excuse me, i have a full night of reading ahead me :-) Cheers! David On Tuesday 27 November 2001 13:55, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:32 PM -0500 on 2001/11/27, David wrote: > > I'm looking at transfering VCR video's to cd or dvd if necessary, ( > > preferably cd) but am uncertain as too what size's I would be > > dealing with. ( dealing with video "sizes" between 1.5 and 2 hours) > > This is precisely what is done with VideoCD (i.e., VCD) format. > > > I'm wandering if someone has done this, and/or what would the best > > format too convert the video too, and would it be possible to be fit > > a 2hr video on a cd? > > I'd recommend you check out what is done to produce a VCD before > doing too much else. If you get the format correct, your VideoCD > will automatically play in any computer or video equipment that is > capable of mounting a CD and reading the VideoCD format. VCDs aren't > nearly as popular in the US, but are much more common in Europe and > Asia. > > > Most better DVD creation software should also be capable of > creating VideoCDs, and burning them on most any standard CD-R. > > The latest version of the "platinum" products from Roxio (Easy CD > Creator Platinum for PCs, and Toast Platinum for Macs) are both > capable of creating VideoCDs from suitable input files. See > for more information. > > Of course, this may not help you under FreeBSD, but at least it > tells you that this sort of thing is possible and you know what the > format needs to be, and now you just need to find the suitable > program. ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 27 19:38:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DCE237B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 91329 invoked by uid 100); 28 Nov 2001 03:38:32 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15364.23608.444780.192696@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:38:32 -0600 To: David Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video format's and sizes In-Reply-To: <20011127183345.8269A44A9DB@spitfire.velocet.net> References: <20011127183345.8269A44A9DB@spitfire.velocet.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David types: > (I figured i would send this too chat, because it's not really specific > too FreeBSD in itself.) But it would have been appropriate for -multimedia, where it's a fairly common topic of discussion. > I'm looking at transfering VCR video's to cd or dvd if necessary, ( > preferably cd) but am uncertain as too what size's I would be dealing > with. ( dealing with video "sizes" between 1.5 and 2 hours) > > I'm wandering if someone has done this, and/or what would the best format > too convert the video too, and would it be possible to be fit a 2hr video > on a cd? Yes, it's been done before. Check the multimedia archives for details. The answer to the last question is probably "yes but the quality will suck". http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 3:42:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from asukanet.co.jp (ns.asukanet.co.jp [211.5.250.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 823C637B416 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 03:42:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17560 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2001 20:30:06 +0900 Received: from vs.asukanet.co.jp (HELO yahoo.ca) (211.5.250.215) by ns.asukanet.co.jp with SMTP; 28 Nov 2001 20:30:06 +0900 Received: from yahoo.ca ([192.168.13.4]) by smtp-relay.yahoo.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id 15800a3282d7c5 for ; Wed, Nov 2001 21:45:47 Message-Id: Date: Wed, Nov 2001 21:45:47 From: chunkycapsules@yahoo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Subject: BEST AND BIGGEST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This email is of an ADULT NATURE, if you are not over 18 years old, you must delete this message as you are not the intended recipient. http://213.180.33.225/site2/ ----- FREE UNLIMITED ACCESS----- The horniest TEEN XXX online 50,000 Ultimate Fucking Channels 120,000 Hardcore Premium Images Teen fucking, licking and sucking videos. ----- FREE UNLIMITED ACCESS----- http://213.180.33.225/site2/ These Babes are built like godessses!!! Where the fuck were they when I was growing up? http://213.180.33.225/site2/ They were a little scared at first but now they love the taste of cock! ----- FREE UNLIMITED ACCESS ----- To remove yourself from our free newsletter service, email "sdf3rgds@yahoo.com" with the word 'remove' in the subject field To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 11:38:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E480D37B41A for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:38:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21556; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:37:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011128122559.044e5790@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:30:33 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Mike Doyle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Looking for sendmail logfile analysis tool In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20011123162453.00bb86d0@199.107.2.1> <3.0.5.32.20011123162453.00bb86d0@199.107.2.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:00 AM 11/26/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > Go to and look at their "lire" > package. The last versions I saw were getting to the point where they > were almost as good as "pflogsumm" (the best log summary output I've > seen for any MTA), and since they have separate parsing & reporting > modules, it will work exactly the same with sendmail, postfix, & > qmail. They have a web report module now, and a lot more. I have been doing a great deal of work on log monitoring, and was interested in working with this group until I discovered that all of their output (including their DTDs) is GPLed. Alas, because the DTDs are GPLed and no other documentation of their "DLF" file format is provided, there is a serious risk of GPL contamination if one writes a program which interoperates with theirs. Unless they agree to release their DTDs under a truly free license, I'll have to implement something myself that IS truly free. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 16:53:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4153D37B405 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3221BD25; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24281; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:53:21 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fAT0oaU11471; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:50:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for sendmail logfile analysis tool References: <3.0.5.32.20011123162453.00bb86d0@199.107.2.1> <3.0.5.32.20011123162453.00bb86d0@199.107.2.1> <4.3.2.7.2.20011128122559.044e5790@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 28 Nov 2001 16:50:35 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011128122559.044e5790@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 47 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > I have been doing a great deal of work on log monitoring, and was > interested in working with this group until I discovered that all of > their output (including their DTDs) is GPLed. Alas, because the DTDs are > GPLed and no other documentation of their "DLF" file format is provided, > there is a serious risk of GPL contamination if one writes a program > which interoperates with theirs. Unless they agree to release their DTDs > under a truly free license, I'll have to implement something myself that > IS truly free. There aren't many that can resist the poisoned apple like that. Way to be. Makes me glad I switched from GNU/Linux last year. But if you ever decide that "free license" (truly or not) is too oxymoronic to use with a straight face, you might consider using the term "wide open license". It leaves room for mis-interpretation, but not much; "wide open" has some fuzz on it. Unfortunately, web page http://www.dspguru.com/wol2.htm claims that the capitalized form and acronym are trademarks. I think it's too descriptive to be a valid TM and the web page gives you the idea that it is not being properly used as a TM, but who wants to argue? Anyone got a similar term? Concerning GPL contamination via DTDs: If this is an old topic, excuse me; it's the first I've seen mention of it. I'm wondering how similar this is to GPL contamination via IDL source in the CORBA world. (GPL and GPL-incompatible programs communicating via CORBA, using Interface-Definition-Language-specified interfaces.) I'm pretty sure that RMS ruled IDL files basically uncopyrightable (unenforcable anyway) since there is basically only one way to specify the interface. (All variations would be essentially non-creative translations of each other. ?) See http://www.progressive-comp.com/Lists/?l=berlin-design&m=93118897023514&w=2 where he reveals one of his principles with: However, using the GPL on IDL files might have a substantial practical effect even if it isn't legally airtight. He ends it with Words To Live By (TM): So the real question is, what result do you want? Anyway, are DTDs sufficiently like an interface to use similar arguments? (I think the argument depends on interfaceness, not just lack of creative variations, but I'm not sure.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 17:54:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F62237B41A for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26974; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:54:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011128184342.04077040@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:53:43 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Looking for sendmail logfile analysis tool Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011128122559.044e5790@localhost> <3.0.5.32.20011123162453.00bb86d0@199.107.2.1> <3.0.5.32.20011123162453.00bb86d0@199.107.2.1> <4.3.2.7.2.20011128122559.044e5790@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:50 PM 11/28/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >There aren't many that can resist the poisoned apple like that. Way to >be. Makes me glad I switched from GNU/Linux last year. My long term hope for the BSDs is that they will be able to spit out the bits of the apple that they have ingested -- to wit, the GNU toolchain and some of the GNU utilities. It'd be truly great to run a BSD that's ENTIRELY BSD-licensed, and I'm convinced that if the four open source BSD projects pooled their resources they could do it in short order. >But if you ever decide that "free license" (truly or not) is too >oxymoronic to use with a straight face, you might consider using the >term "wide open license". I've been using the term "truly free," because (a) the GPL does not make software "free" at all; and (b) people seem to really like the word "free," as irrational as that may be. >Unfortunately, web page >http://www.dspguru.com/wol2.htm claims that the capitalized form and >acronym are trademarks. I don't know about that, but I'm sure that use of the term "truly free" is not violating any claimed or actual trademark. Hey, even Stallman grudgingly admits that BSD-licensed software is "free." What he stubbornly refuses to acknowledge is that GPLed software isn't. But enough about philosophy.... >Concerning GPL contamination via DTDs: > >If this is an old topic, excuse me; it's the first I've seen mention of >it. I'm wondering how similar this is to GPL contamination via IDL >source in the CORBA world. (GPL and GPL-incompatible programs >communicating via CORBA, using Interface-Definition-Language-specified >interfaces.) I'm pretty sure that RMS ruled IDL files basically >uncopyrightable (unenforcable anyway) since there is basically only >one way to specify the interface. Stallman can't "rule" that something is or isn't subject to copyright. If you incorporate someone else's code -- and DTDs are, arguably, "code" in a declarative language -- you run the risk of being accused of copyright infringement. >Anyway, are DTDs sufficiently like an interface to use similar >arguments? (I think the argument depends on interfaceness, not >just lack of creative variations, but I'm not sure.) I don't know, but wouldn't risk it. I can define a file format just as easily as they can, and so I'll do so. But if I so much as look at their GPLed files, I can be accused of being "contaminated." I don't want to deal with the possible consequences of that. Besides, if my work is "truly free," then commercial developers will prefer it and adopt it and it will become the de facto standard. The folks with the GPLed DTD will ultimately either adopt it or remain stubbornly incompatible and outside the mainstream. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 19:49: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DCAF37B419 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:49:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAT3mex01587; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 04:48:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "GB Clark II" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 04:48:41 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org GB Clark II writes: > The UNIX architecture of 30 years ago is long > gone. Most modern day UNIX/unix-like OS have > everything need to run a single user just fine. UNIX already had that thirty years ago. And root has always been there. > There is nothing that I know of in the Windows > architecture (outside of having a graphics > sub-system in the kernel) that makes it any better. That's like saying, "There's nothing I know of in a car that makes it better than a horse, except that it goes faster." Having a good GUI is all it takes, in this case. > Please point those parts of the Windows > architecture that make is superior as a desktop > system. See above. The lack of a multiuser environment is usually an advantage as well, along with the heavy integration with the hardware (both of these are to the detriment of security, but desktop users don't care about security). > The only thing Windows has going for it is good > salesmanship and many of applications. "Many" meaning 100,000 applications, including all of the leading applications. That's enough! Salesmanship has not really been a factor. There was never much competition. > As far as a GUI goes, I'll put a SGI UNIX system > aginst Windows any day of the week. Perhaps you will, but most users won't. They don't care. Why would an average person going out to buy a computer for his desktop decide on SGI UNIX instead of Microsoft Windows? > Also, not all UNIX/unix-like systems are created > equal. Comparing FreeBSD on a Duron-850 (my home > box) to 4.2BSD running on a VAX (13 years ago) > is like comparing apples and grapes. They are still far more alike than any version of UNIX and Windows. One of the advantages of UNIX, by the way, is that it will still run on slow, small hardware platforms. Windows tends to use all the hardware you can buy for it. Of course, desktop users don't care, since that's what they buy the hardware for, anyway, but for servers, this is a serious problem with the Window s platform. > It almost smells like circular logic. It's not religious faith, and to some people, anything that doesn't adhere to dogma "smells." > Again, outside of more applications, please tell > me how MS Windows is a better desktop platform > at the architectural level than FreeBSD. I already have, several times. But even if I had not, having more applications is already _more than enough_ to make it a better choice. You cannot discount an overwhelming advantage simply because it makes the comparison so lopsided. > From what I've seen from MS Windows 2.X to Windows > 2000 (I don't have XP) is that MS Windows does > nothing good. For a desktop user, it does most things better than UNIX, from an ergonomic standpoint and often from a technical standpoint. > Yes, Windows 2000 comes alot closer, but my brother= > inlaw still reboots his 2000 box many more times > than I do under FreeBSD. Windows NT/2000 systems run for years in stable environments. Desktop users tend to run a lot of junk, much of which has to be trusted by the OS, and that crashes systems. My FreeBSD system crashed within two hours of my first installation of KDE. It never crashes when I'm not trying to use it as a desktop. This is not a coincidence. It amazes me, for example, that I have to run with secure_level = -1 in order to use an X server. This is a very bad sign, as it means that the X server is not secure. No wonder it crashes the system. > And then you lose the one area where Windows has > any benifits, game playing. That is yet another of many benefits; I've described some of the others already. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 20:51:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.inter7.com (ns1.inter7.com [209.218.8.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 307B337B419 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11899 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 04:51:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nitedog) (65.6.158.15) by evanston.inter7.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2001 04:51:46 -0000 Message-ID: <000901c17892$28e1ce90$0301a8c0@nitedog> Reply-To: "Randall Hamilton" From: "Randall Hamilton" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "GB Clark II" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:56:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > There is nothing that I know of in the Windows > > architecture (outside of having a graphics > > sub-system in the kernel) that makes it any better. > > That's like saying, "There's nothing I know of in a car that makes it better > than a horse, except that it goes faster." Having a good GUI is all it takes, > in this case. i would personally question the term 'good'. Windows is semi useful for a wide range of tasks that are dependant upon the said GUI. I would not go as far as to say they make the GUI itself better. > > Please point those parts of the Windows > > architecture that make is superior as a desktop > > system. > > See above. The lack of a multiuser environment is usually an advantage as well, > along with the heavy integration with the hardware (both of these are to the > detriment of security, but desktop users don't care about security). I agree..the clueless people/drones that use it get hacked enough WITHOUT it being a multiuser OS....why increase that amount exponantually by making it a multiuser OS? > > The only thing Windows has going for it is good > > salesmanship and many of applications. > > "Many" meaning 100,000 applications, including all of the leading applications. > That's enough! another point i agree on! i mean...where WOULD we be without 90% of those 100k applications...most of them doing advanced...critical things like displaying purty screensavers...or having moving eyes follow your mouse on the famous GUI? modern socity as we know it would fall. > > Yes, Windows 2000 comes alot closer, but my brother= > > inlaw still reboots his 2000 box many more times > > than I do under FreeBSD. > > Windows NT/2000 systems run for years in stable environments. Desktop users > tend to run a lot of junk, much of which has to be trusted by the OS, and that > crashes systems. NT and stable in the same sentance? did not expect to hear that....but in all honesty...you are correct. win NT does indeed run for years. its just slow and stable...not to mention useless as a workstation. other then that..you are right on the money. > > And then you lose the one area where Windows has > > any benifits, game playing. > > That is yet another of many benefits; I've described some of the others already. thats the number one benifit that i can see..then again..I'm a networking admin..i see little use for cosmetic crap like addon fancy GUI's and lame formating(gooo ms word!). I will say windows 2000 is a better desktop...and personally...i would rather not see freebsd in the desktop arena. It's a great server OS...doing many things windows cannot even remotly touch to date. Let the cluebies run the desktops...the clued can run the servers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 20:51:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7E0537B41C for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14553 invoked by uid 100); 29 Nov 2001 04:51:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15365.48855.19705.7956@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:51:35 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0574C4.3040001@verizon.net> <016e01c17889$23dfd990$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > You've said this before, but haven't done > > anything to demonstrate it. > I'm surprised that you think it requires demonstration. You're asserting something that over a decade and a half of experience says is false. If I told you the sky was green, wouldn't you ask for something to back that up if it had been blue every time you looked up for the last 15 years, and was blue when you checked a few minutes ago? > UNIX was designed to > service hundreds of users sitting in front of dumb terminals; it was not > designed to drive a single resource-intensive GUI on dedicated hardware for a > single user. UNIX architecture puts a huge emphasis on multiple, independent > users and processes, and very little emphasis on the kind of close integration > and hardware dependency that a complex GUI requires. These characteristics make > for an excellent timesharing system or server, but they also make for a poor > desktop environment. Both of these statements are false. As you've already noted, Unix provides a *minimal* multi-user environment. While it's true that Unix can be tuned to run in the kind of environment you describe, it can also be tuned to handle a single user. There's no huge emphasis on those things - they're just features of the system. SGI has the most complex GUI I've ever run into, and they didn't require hardware dependency. They *do* require a well-defined API that makes it possible to access the hardware efficiently - but that's a completely different animal. > If you believe that UNIX is as good a desktop as Windows, then logically you > must also believe that Windows is as good a server as UNIX. An extension of > this logic leads to the conclusion that the operating systems are essentially > identical--but that obviously is not the reality. I didn't say it was as good a desktop as Windows, I said that it's been perfectly adequate for heavy desktop use, based on the better part of two decades of doing that, and watching and helping others do that. I will say that when I finally moved to mass market hardware for home use in 1998, I evaluted the available versions of Windows and found them wanting. Mostly, there didn't seem to be any choice in GUIs, and the environment being sold for home use wasn't stable enough for me to be happy. Your "logic" is so flawed I'll suggest you take a math class in logic. The statemnts that follow the word "logically" are straw men, having no relation to anything I ever said or ever expect to say. I have no experience with Windows as a server, so I don't make any claims about it. I generally take the word of people who do, but would want to verify it myself before spending money on it. > It's interesting to see how hard people will try to prove or at least argue that > their pet operating systems are the best for all purposes, or even adequate for > all purposes. I've never seen an operating system that can do it all, and I > expect that I never will. I've never claimed that Unix - in any form - would fill all niches. I can think of several that it sucks at. I'm mildly amused by the fact that Unix is considered a "small, light-weight OS" these days, having dealt with systems that provided a faster desktop environment than Unix on hardware that cost about 10% of what a good Unix box did. FWIW, at the time Windows was a niche market, competing with other things that bolted multitasking onto Windows. > > Quite to the contrary, every time someone has > > asked me to work on Win 9x or Macs - through the > > mid 90s - they crashed regularly under my > > normal usage patterns. That convinced me that, > > if anything, those operating systems aren't > > suitable for "heave desktop use". > Heavy desktop use requires NT and its descendants. Windows 9x and the Mac are > for occasional, non-critical desktop use, for precisely the reasons you cite. In other words, my typical usage patterns for Unix workstations qualify as "heavy desktop use", and Unix handles them perfectly adequately, doing everythiong I call upon it to do. You seem to be contradicting yourself. > Perhaps you can explain the utility of a multiuser environment for a single-user > desktop graphics workstation. Because you might want to let more than one person use the computer, and have a little security between them? Of course, that a system has an unused capability in some role doesn't mean it can't fill that role adequately. It may mean you're using a Saturn V for a signal flare. Running vi on a Cray means that all that nice, fast array processing hardware Seymour put into them is going unused, but I can assure you from first-hand experience that vi runs just fine on a Cray. It was a tad faster on the dual-processer Ultrix box in the next room, but it was perfectly adequate for the job. The fact that there was a bunch of expensive hardware going unused while it was doing so in no way detracted from it's adequacy at running vi. > > There are many reasons that Windows is the > > dominant force on the desktop today but they > > have everything to do with marketing and > > economics and very little to do with operating > > system design. > That is a common misconception, held dear and defended by those with axes to > grind or religions to defend. Microsoft wanted the desktop GUI market and went > after it. Most UNIX vendors did not. I don't see those two statements as being contradictory. Yes, MS wanted the desktop market and went after it. Going after a market is *marketing*. Once MS decides they want a market, they'll keep building products until they find one that actually sells into it. It took three tries with Windows. At leaste two with WinCE. Bill Gates stood on a stage and said that Windows NT wasn't stable enough for real world server use, but claimed that that the latest offering was. It's actually a bit frightening when I think about it. None of this has anything with system design. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 21: 2: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5366137B41B for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAT51jx01837; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:01:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <000901c17892$28e1ce90$0301a8c0@nitedog> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:01:45 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Randall writes: > I agree..the clueless people/drones that use it > get hacked enough WITHOUT it being a multiuser > OS....why increase that amount exponantually > by making it a multiuser OS? Making it a multiuser OS does not increase the loss unless there are actually multiple users of the system, which typically is not the case for desktops. > i mean...where WOULD we be without 90% of those > 100k applications... We would still be sitting in front of timesharing terminals connected to UNIX systems. > ...or having moving eyes follow your mouse on > the famous GUI? I tried xeyes. It seemed useless to me. > NT and stable in the same sentance? did not > expect to hear that....but in all honesty...you > are correct. I've seen many systems run for years at a time. > win NT does indeed run for years. its just slow > and stable...not to mention useless as a workstation. Actually, I prefer it for desktop workstation use over other versions of Windows. The consumer versions of Windows are too unstable and insecure for my tastes. Windows NT does not crash, except if you install buggy drivers (but that is almost unavoidable, since drivers must be trusted by the OS). > i see little use for cosmetic crap like addon > fancy GUI's and lame formating(gooo ms word!). It depends on what I'm doing. For network adminstration, simple text and command-line interfaces are what I prefer. I've spent too much time cursing Windows NT and its near-total reliance on GUI-based tools to feel otherwise. However, on the desktop, I like an ergonomic GUI. Note, for example, that I have FreeBSD on my server, but I access it mostly via ssh sessions from my Windows machine. > I will say windows 2000 is a better desktop... > and personally...i would rather not see freebsd > in the desktop arena. I have no problem with people using FreeBSD as a desktop OS, if they really want to fit square pegs into round holes. However, I should be _very_ upset if FreeBSD were "enhanced" to make it more GUI friendly. I consider FreeBSD to be a superlative _server_ OS, and anything that might be done to it to enhance the GUI "desktop experience" would almost certainly diminish its utility as a server dramatically. This is one reason why I'm not running X on the machine. Too much of the machine is required to run a GUI, and that's just a waste of resources on a server. The console on my machine spends about 99% of its time running the text-based Beastie screensaver--pretty much as you'd expect for a server system. > It's a great server OS...doing many things windows > cannot even remotly touch to date. I agree. Thus far I've been very favorably impressed by FreeBSD as a server. It's amazing how much bang for the buck you get with this operating system. > Let the cluebies run the desktops...the clued can > run the servers. I think that is how it is actually working. The desktop users are hobbyists and other relatively clueless users; those who use FreeBSD as a server are using it in production and for more serious purposes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 21:21:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCB337B41A for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAT5L0x01880; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:21:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01c101c17895$a2691360$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org><006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C0574C4.3040001@verizon.net><016e01c17889$23dfd990$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.48855.19705.7956@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:21:00 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > You're asserting something that over a decade > and a half of experience says is false. A decade and a half of _your_ experience, perhaps. > If I told you the sky was green, wouldn't you > ask for something to back that up if it had > been blue every time you looked up for the last > 15 years, and was blue when you checked a few minutes > ago? You're welcome to disbelieve me, if you wish. > Both of these statements are false. When UNIX was designed, dumb terminals were all anyone had. There were no "desktop environments." It was optimally designed for highly-interactive terminal sessions in large numbers, with completely independent users. It does that extremely well. Remember, this was all a decade and a half before _your_ decade and a half of experience even started. > As you've already noted, Unix provides a *minimal* > multi-user environment. Minimal compared to Multics, but still orders of magnitude superior to that provided by Windows. > While it's true that Unix can be tuned to run > in the kind of environment you describe ... It doesn't have to be tuned to do that; the system is designed for it. Why else would every process have its own effective user ID, if the intent were not to enhance multiuser environments? You certainly don't need that on a single-user system. > SGI has the most complex GUI I've ever run > into, and they didn't require hardware dependency. How many hardware platforms were supported? > They *do* require a well-defined API that > makes it possible to access the hardware > efficiently - but that's a completely different > animal. Is it? Sounds like just splitting out part of the system to a hardware-dependent set of components to me. > I didn't say it was as good a desktop as Windows, > I said that it's been perfectly adequate for > heavy desktop use, based on the better part of > two decades of doing that ... I have no quarrel with this statement. > I have no experience with Windows as a server, > so I don't make any claims about it. Consumer versions of Windows are so useless as servers that I don't even recommend trying them in such environments as experiments, much less as production systems. However, the NT-based versions of Windows make pretty good servers, _if_ you are in a homogenous, Windows-desktop-based environment. Additionally, NT servers are very secure intrinsically. Nevertheless, none of the Windows servers can compare to UNIX for efficiency and cost-effectiveness, nor can they compare to UNIX in terms of architectural adaptation to the server task. FreeBSD and all other flavors of UNIX blow away Windows in this respect. > I'm mildly amused by the fact that Unix is considered > a "small, light-weight OS" these days, having dealt > with systems that provided a faster desktop environment > than Unix on hardware that cost about 10% of what > a good Unix box did. In the olden days, UNIX and the hardware it ran on had 90% margins, and it was expensive to build to begin with. UNIX was a heavyweight in those days (although still stripped in comparison with its ancestor, Multics, or other proprietary systems like MVS). Today, the same horsepower that cost millions back then costs a few hundred dollars and will sit on your desk, and since the core of UNIX has not really changed, it now runs like greased lightning on virtually any system on which you care to install it. I'm quite certain my little desktop PC running UNIX here would support 200 timesharing users or more very easily--it has a thousand times the processing power of UNIX hardware thirty years ago, and at least 1000 times as much memory, and hundreds of times as much mass storage space. So UNIX hasn't really gotten smaller or more efficient, but hardware has gotten bigger, and now UNIX is incredibly compact and efficient compared with other operating systems. I'm amazed when I see how long something like a Windows XP takes to do anything or even boot on modern hardware. This is hardware that can execute a _billion_ instructions per second, and it still takes _seconds_ for the system to do anything. Ever calculate how much processing that really represents? Just what is the OS doing that burns all this horsepower? The mind boggles. FreeBSD, in contrast, seems to do just about everything instantaneously. Only operations involving heavy disk I/O seem to take perceptible time, and that is because disks have increased only slightly in speed over time (unlike memory and processor). > In other words, my typical usage patterns for > Unix workstations qualify as "heavy desktop use", > and Unix handles them perfectly adequately, > doing everythiong I call upon it to do. Yes. However, if you were choosing new systems for the same purpose, Windows would probably be a better choice, unless you had UNIX-specific applications that were essential to your purpose. > You seem to be contradicting yourself. No. See above. > Because you might want to let more than one person > use the computer, and have a little security > between them? It's not a single-user system then. > It may mean you're using a Saturn V for a signal > flare. In the context of multiuser support on a desktop, this is true, for UNIX. It provides far more capability in this domain than any desktop user is ever likely to require. Fortunately, since it is such a lean OS, this is not much overhead, although it does impose other technical constraints. > Running vi on a Cray means that all that > nice, fast array processing hardware Seymour put > into them is going unused, but I can assure you > from first-hand experience that vi runs just fine > on a Cray. It should, with teraflops available to process the interrupts produced by every single keystroke on your terminal. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 21:53:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19BB537B419 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15341 invoked by uid 100); 29 Nov 2001 05:53:22 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:53:22 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain> <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [This thread is being globally redirected to -chat, along with the prior one. Others please do the same.] Anthony Atkielski types: > Andrew writes: > > So, both Sun Microsystems and Silicon Graphics > > (among others) were wrong to use a Unix-type OS > > for their high end GRAPHICAL workstations? > In what sense? It was certainly a poor technical decision. However, writing a > new operating system costs money, and so does buying a new operating system from > someone else. UNIX was at hand and about as close to open source and free as > one could get. > > That is also why Apple chose UNIX as a basis for Mac OS X. They couldn't afford > to write something new, so they reused as much as they could, even though this > is not necessarily a good idea from a technical standpoint. Note that Apple examined an OS that didn't have all the multi-user complexity that Unix has, ran - like a bat out of hell - on Apple hardware, and on MP boxes with those processors. They decided against adopting it. > Microsoft did the same with Windows 3.x and (to a limited extent) Windows 95. > Windows NT had elements of OS/2 architecture in it as well. Not to mention VMS. > Writing a new operating system costs billions of dollars; even Microsoft cannot > afford to do that. No, it doesn't cost billions of dollars. Sun, Apple and DEC have all done OS development projects that they abandoned. I'm pretty sure Be didn't have billions of dollars to spend, and they put a very nice little OS on the market, though it wasn't suitable for much off the desktop. > > I'm sure Scott (Mr. McNealy) is crying over that > > comment. > It's possible to make lots of money with technically less-than-ideal products. Gee, I'd say that MicroSoft's products are the best example of that. In fact, I've even written a paper on the topic inspired by a chapter in Richard Gabriel's "Good News/Bad News/How to Win Big". That chapter discussed why Unix was beating *his* favorite working environment out in the market, in spite of it being a clearly superior environment - a sentiment which I agree with, BTW. His chapter was titled "Worse is better". My paper is titled "Good enough is best", and can be found at . > Sun and SGI weren't selling graphics workstations on the basis of the underlying > OS. Of course not - the underlying OS is largely irrelevant if it provides all the needed functions. Any functionality beyond that is also irrelevant, except that it might chew up resources that could be better used elsewhere. > > Multiple independent processes... the sort of > > thing that you'd want to be doing if you had > > multiple instances of a data analysis program > > running. > No. For data analysis, you need programs that communicate extensively, not > completely independent processes. Horse puckey. If you've used batch environments, you might be familiar with SAS, which communicated large volumes of data, but did it by passing a data set (or a small number of them) from one command to the next. While it wasn't as popular as SPSS in those environments, it was much easier to use. I even did some of my data analsys coursework using it. This model maps very well onto Unix, and can be found implemented in the math/unixstat port. Some environments *do* require lots of communications. Unix works fine for that. Some of the best tools for that I've run into are programs that bundle the data up with C code to manipulate it, then make the whole available as objects in Python. The GUI is done in TkInter, meaning the code can be run on Unix, Windows, or the Mac with little or no modification. > > Which makes it perfect for Unix. > See above. UNIX (and most other operating systems) lack the close communication > between processes that would be optimal for this type of application. Most - if not all - modern Unices allow multiple independent threads of control in a single address space. If there's a closer form of communication in a computing environment, I'm not familiar with it. > > ... I understand that you're coming from a closed= > > minded Microsoft point of view... > No. I come from a non-religious point of view, and when one is not encumbered > by religious faith in a particular platform or operating system, one tends to > see advantages and disadvantages of each system more clearly. I do not worship > a FreeBSD god (nor a Windows god), so I do not feel frightened by the idea of > running two completely different operating systems for two entirely different > purposes. I choose the tool that fits the job. I'm not blinded by a religious faith in any particular platform either. For years, I ran *three* different computing environments - one on my desktop, one on my clients servers, and one in my pocket, and that's counting the many versions of Unix they ran as one platform, which isn't quite true. I think you're blinded by yourself, and are assuming that because some tool fits you best for a particular job, it must do the same for everyone. That's not true. I recommend that most of my relatives run Windows, not FreeBSD. Before Windows was popular, I recommended that they run DOS. With those who grouse about Windows being inferior to the desktop environment they had before they drank the koolaide, I'll discuss what they want and possibly recommend FreeBSD if I think it will fit the bill. I might recommend a Linux distro instead, if I think that that would fit them better than FreeBSD. > > ... but, until you have used and properly evaluated > > FreeBSD (or any other Unix, for that matter) in > > a desktop environment, I don't believe you have > > the right to say that it makes a poor desktop environment. > I knew within a few days of installing FreeBSD that it was suboptimal as a > desktop (at best). But you still haven't given us a description of *what* makes it suboptimal. You say that it's architecture isn't adequate, but that's a "why", not a "what". Come on - what do you want to do on your desktop that you can't do on FreeBSD? I'll grant that Windows is much better at working with files in proprietary MicroSoft formats, but that doesn't make it a better desktop environment, that makes it a better environment for exchanging files in those formats with other people. Those are different things, and not everyone needs that particular ability in their desktop. > > Making assertions without examples, proof or fact > > to cite to back them up is not good. > I've explained my reasoning in considerable detail. To those for whom IT is not > a religion, my explanations are cogent. For the true believers, no "proof" is > ever adequate to sway them from the Path. I've also explained why Unix makes a perfectly adequate desktop for the heavy user in considerable detail. To those for whom the desktop is not a religion, my explanations are cogent and sufficient. For true believers, no "proof" is ever adequate to sway them from The One True Path. I have as yet to see you list a single thing you wanted FreeBSD to do as a desktop that it couldn't. > > At one time, you could run Windows on everything > > from a Macintosh to the latest and greatest > > from Intel to the wicked fast Alpha from DEC. For a real giggle, consider that I've seen Windows running on the MIPS processor running with the opposite endianness of the MIPS boxes. DEC killed that product when the dropped the hardware line in favor of the Alpha. > > So, from what you're saying here is that you > > advocate one operating system for each type of > > application? That would be absurd. > What's absurd about it? In fact, that's exactly how real-world implementations > have typically done it, in the absence of political reasons for forcing one > "solution" to fit all environments. Many organizations use Windows on desktops > but UNIX on servers. Yup. Many also use Unix on the desktop along with Windows. And many organizations use Windows as servers, and are quite happy doing so with no political persuasion at all. So what? If something works for someone, I'm not going to tell them it's not adequate to do the job they've got it doing. Only an idiot would do something like that. > With stable applications, yes. With poorly-written applications (the norm in > PC-land, alas!), they do not stand up very well. Poorly-written applications > are best run on NT, if possible, because NT will not crash when they do. The same was true of OS/2. I know a lot of people who developed for Windows on OS/2 for just that reason. Look at all the good that did IBM. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 22:31:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B49937B43C for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15746 invoked by uid 100); 29 Nov 2001 06:31:39 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15365.54859.140475.279838@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:31:39 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" , "Mike Meyer" , , , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0574C4.3040001@verizon.net> <016e01c17889$23dfd990$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C05BD9D.4000909@verizon.net> <01c601c17896$12bbf560$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.48855.19705.7956@guru.mired.org> <01c101c17895$a2691360$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <000901c17892$28e1ce90$0301a8c0@nitedog> <01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > However, I should be _very_ upset if FreeBSD were "enhanced" to make it more GUI > friendly. I consider FreeBSD to be a superlative _server_ OS, and anything that > might be done to it to enhance the GUI "desktop experience" would almost > certainly diminish its utility as a server dramatically. I agree with that. People come along every so often saying "If you want to take over the desktop, you need to ...". I don't want it to take over the desktop; I want to to be a fast, stable computing platform. That's the major problem I see with Unix - the major distributions have concentrated on trying to take over the desktop, so it's a major PITA to set them up as a server, or doing something slightly unusual. In other words, in trying to compete with Windows, they're adding all the problems I have with Windows. Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > You're asserting something that over a decade > > and a half of experience says is false. > A decade and a half of _your_ experience, perhaps. Yup. How much experience do you have with Unix as a desktop? > > As you've already noted, Unix provides a *minimal* > > multi-user environment. > Minimal compared to Multics, but still orders of magnitude superior to that > provided by Windows. But not that provided by *your* choice of desktop environments, Windows NT. Either way, it's a long way from the the "huge emphasis" you claimed. > Why else would every process have its own effective user ID, if the intent were > not to enhance multiuser environments? You certainly don't need that on a > single-user system. True. Many hammers have a claw on them that can be used to pull nails. You certainly don't need that to drive nails with them, but it doesn't make them any less effective at driving nails. > > SGI has the most complex GUI I've ever run > > into, and they didn't require hardware dependency. > How many hardware platforms were supported? I honestly don't know. Three comes to mind, but you should check with an expert. I can do that if you want. > > They *do* require a well-defined API that > > makes it possible to access the hardware > > efficiently - but that's a completely different > > animal. > Is it? Sounds like just splitting out part of the system to a > hardware-dependent set of components to me. Yup. That's called a "driver". > > I'm mildly amused by the fact that Unix is considered > > a "small, light-weight OS" these days, having dealt > > with systems that provided a faster desktop environment > > than Unix on hardware that cost about 10% of what > > a good Unix box did. > > In the olden days, UNIX and the hardware it ran on had 90% margins, and it was > expensive to build to begin with. UNIX was a heavyweight in those days > (although still stripped in comparison with its ancestor, Multics, or other > proprietary systems like MVS). Today, the same horsepower that cost millions > back then costs a few hundred dollars and will sit on your desk, and since the > core of UNIX has not really changed, it now runs like greased lightning on > virtually any system on which you care to install it. I'm quite certain my > little desktop PC running UNIX here would support 200 timesharing users or more > very easily--it has a thousand times the processing power of UNIX hardware > thirty years ago, and at least 1000 times as much memory, and hundreds of times > as much mass storage space. Actually, you forgot the single most important resource for supporting hundreds of users - I/O throughput - but it's probably got that as well. I replaced several large multi-bus VAX servers with Unix workstations - after retuning the kernel for that use, of course. It was sort of boggling to compute the values for those things, and realize that the pizza box and a couple of shoeboxes had more of everything important than the two refrigerators it replaced. > So UNIX hasn't really gotten smaller or more efficient, but hardware has gotten > bigger, and now UNIX is incredibly compact and efficient compared with other > operating systems. I'm well aware of that. It's gotten larger. It's just that the standards it's being compared to have gone from CP/M, Flex, MS-DOS and OS/9 to various versions Windows. > > In other words, my typical usage patterns for > > Unix workstations qualify as "heavy desktop use", > > and Unix handles them perfectly adequately, > > doing everythiong I call upon it to do. > Yes. However, if you were choosing new systems for the same purpose, Windows > would probably be a better choice, unless you had UNIX-specific applications > that were essential to your purpose. I did that evaluation of desktops in '98. After considering the consumer versions of Windows, BeOS, the Mac, Linux, various RISC-based Eunices, and all three BSD versions, I settled on FreeBSD. Windows and the Mac lacked stability. Windows, the Mac and BeOS had GUI's I couldn't stand using, and no easy way to change them. That's why I didn't bother looking at Windows NT. The RISC-based Eunices didn't provide the bang/buck a Wintel box did, and I didn't need the extra features they provided on my workstation. FreeBSD had the ports tree and Linux emulation, which was why I settled on it instead of Linux > > You seem to be contradicting yourself. > No. See above. Yes. See above. > > Because you might want to let more than one person > > use the computer, and have a little security > > between them? > It's not a single-user system then. How many home systems really are single-user computers? Most of the ones I'm familiar with are used by everyone in the family. > > It may mean you're using a Saturn V for a signal > > flare. > In the context of multiuser support on a desktop, this is true, for UNIX. It > provides far more capability in this domain than any desktop user is ever likely > to require. Fortunately, since it is such a lean OS, this is not much overhead, > although it does impose other technical constraints. I pushed my old system - dual PII/Xeons@450MHz with 2MB of cache, with multiple scsi controllers and no IDE at all - to the point of being unresponsive to keystrokes on the console. All by my little old lonesome. > > Running vi on a Cray means that all that > > nice, fast array processing hardware Seymour put > > into them is going unused, but I can assure you > > from first-hand experience that vi runs just fine > > on a Cray. > It should, with teraflops available to process the interrupts produced by every > single keystroke on your terminal. This is *vi* we're talking about: guru$ pwd /usr/src/contrib/nvi guru$ find . -name '*.c' | xargs grep float ./common/put.c: * floating around. guru$ find . -name '*.c' | xargs grep double ./ex/ex.c: * Command lines that start with a double-quote are comments. ./vi/vi.c: * the *single* characters don't mean anything but the *doubled* ./vi/vi.c: * Commands that have motion components can be doubled to ./vi/vi.c: * appropriately. If not a doubled command, run the function to get guru$ There are no floating point variables in vi, so all those teraflops are commpletely wasted. In fact, the reason it was a tad slower than the VAX was because it took most of a dozen integer instructions for it to convert a byte pointer to a word address and then get the byte you wanted out of the word in question. The VAX did that in one instruction. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 22:42:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9754F37B423 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:42:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAT6gKx02185; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:42:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain><017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:42:21 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Note that Apple examined an OS that didn't have > all the multi-user complexity that Unix has, ran > - like a bat out of hell - on Apple hardware, and > on MP boxes with those processors. They decided > against adopting it. What operating system was that, and what was their reason for rejecting it? > Not to mention VMS. I'm not familiar with VMS. What elements of NT are inherited from it or influenced by it? > No, it doesn't cost billions of dollars. Yes, it does. Even some application systems can cost hundreds of millions of dollars to develop. > Sun, Apple and DEC have all done OS development > projects that they abandoned. Why did they abandon them? > I'm pretty sure Be didn't have billions of dollars > to spend, and they put a very nice little OS on the > market, though it wasn't suitable for much off the > desktop. Why wasn't it suitable for the desktop? > Gee, I'd say that MicroSoft's products are the > best example of that. Not really. The best examples are usually specialized software packages written for captive niche markets. Often they are abysmally poorly written, and overpriced by orders of magnitude, but they sell anyway--because there is no competition. By the way, only the first letter of Microsoft is capitalized. > Of course not - the underlying OS is largely irrelevant > if it provides all the needed functions. So their choice of OS cannot be used to argue that it was technically superior for the task. > Horse puckey. If you've used batch environments, you > might be familiar with SAS, which communicated large > volumes of data, but did it by passing a data set > (or a small number of them) from one command to the > next. Sequential processing, not parallel. > Most - if not all - modern Unices allow multiple > independent threads of control in a single address > space. Threads, or processes? > I recommend that most of my relatives run Windows, > not FreeBSD. So do I. And when they ask about Linux, I discourage them in the strongest terms. > Before Windows was popular, I recommended that > they run DOS. So did I. > Come on - what do you want to do on your > desktop that you can't do on FreeBSD? I have a hundred or so applications on my desktop that will not run under UNIX. Additionally, I can assign permissions via ACLs in NT, to both files and objects. I don't have to run anything special to get a GUI, since that is the native environment. > I have as yet to see you list a single thing you > wanted FreeBSD to do as a desktop that it couldn't. How do I start Adobe Illustrator on FreeBSD? > For a real giggle, consider that I've seen > Windows running on the MIPS processor running > with the opposite endianness of the MIPS boxes. I saw a MIPS machine in a lab once; I don't recall if I actually used it. It was running NT. > The same was true of OS/2. Yes, but OS/2 was designed around the MS-DOS paradigm, which was already dying. NT was designed around the Windows paradigm. IBM wanted the MS-DOS look and feel, and Microsoft wanted the Windows look and feel, and that's why they parted ways. The rest is history. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 23: 3:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C7AF37B41B for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAT736x02268; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:03:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <021101c178a3$e6203f80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" , "Mike Meyer" , , References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org><006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C0574C4.3040001@verizon.net><016e01c17889$23dfd990$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C05BD9D.4000909@verizon.net><01c601c17896$12bbf560$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.48855.19705.7956@guru.mired.org><01c101c17895$a2691360$0a00000a@atkielski.com><01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com><016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><000901c17892$28e1ce90$0301a8c0@nitedog><01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.54859.140475.279838@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:03:06 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > People come along every so often saying "If > you want to take over the desktop, you need > to ...". I don't want it to take over the > desktop ... People who say that have often never seen any other kind of computer besides a desktop PC. Out of sight, out of mind. Some people don't know that servers exist, just as some people incorrectly believe that mainframes are a thing of the past, even as they read their electric bills and tax returns, which were processed and printed by mainframes. > That's the major problem I see with Unix - > the major distributions have concentrated on > trying to take over the desktop, so it's a major > PITA to set them up as a server, or doing something > slightly unusual. You mean Linux, I presume? Linux was written by a student geek for other student geeks, then was seized upon by clueless marketroids and media people and made into a sort of deity to counter Microsoft's antichrist. As I've said before, I suspect that most people using and promoting Linux had never heard of UNIX at all before Linus came along with his school project, and so in their eyes, a good operating system = a Windows-like operating system. Most Linux users just want Windows without Microsoft, or they just want a machine to play with. You can't mean FreeBSD, in any case, since it doesn't install any kind of desktop by default (thank goodness!--if it did, I wouldn't be running FreeBSD). > In other words, in trying to compete with Windows, > they're adding all the problems I have with Windows. Exactly. And there is no way to get around that. If you want Windows functionality, you get all the Windows complexity and instability that go with it. This is why I've only briefly looked at X servers on UNIX. They make too much of a mess, and it's easy to see that they very rapidly complexify and destabilize the machine until it looks just like a clone of Windows. I already have Windows; I don't need another wannabe running next to it. > Yup. How much experience do you have with Unix > as a desktop? Virtually none. Most of my exposure to UNIX has been command-line interfaces only, which I tend to prefer with multiuser systems accessed remotely. > But not that provided by *your* choice of desktop > environments, Windows NT. I'm not sure what you mean. > Yup. That's called a "driver". Drivers are parts of the OS in certain ways, despite claims to the contrary. It's just that they aren't usually written with the rest of the OS, and they tend to be buggy and unreliable. But since they must be _trusted_ by the OS, they effectively are part of the OS, from the standpoint of things like reliability. A system that crashes because of a bad driver is no more up and running than a system that crashes because of a kernel failure. > Actually, you forgot the single most important > resource for supporting hundreds of users - I/O > throughput - but it's probably got that as well. For support of dumb terminals, I'm sure it would suffice. I don't know how well it would support X terminals, as I'm not sure how much additional overhead X clients impose on the system. > It was sort of boggling to compute the values > for those things, and realize that the pizza box > and a couple of shoeboxes had more of everything > important than the two refrigerators it replaced. Yes. What worries me is that software seems to be moving in exactly the opposite direction, and at nearly the same speed. > That's why I didn't bother looking at Windows NT. Ah ... big mistake. Windows NT and the consumer versions of Windows are completely different operating systems. For some reason, Microsoft has never wanted to make that clear. > How many home systems really are single-user > computers? Almost all of them. > Most of the ones I'm familiar with are used by > everyone in the family. Does each person log in as a different user? > I pushed my old system - dual PII/Xeons@450MHz with > 2MB of cache, with multiple scsi controllers and no > IDE at all - to the point of being unresponsive to > keystrokes on the console. All by my little old > lonesome. On UNIX? What were you running? And more specifically: Were you running an X server? > There are no floating point variables in vi, so all > those teraflops are commpletely wasted. Nah ... the machine cycles are just used for tens of Tips instead. > In fact, the reason it was a tad slower than > the VAX was because it took most of a dozen > integer instructions for it to convert a byte > pointer to a word address and then get the byte > you wanted out of the word in question. The VAX did that in one > instruction. You're sure that was the reason? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 23:34:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 76D3437B428 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16599 invoked by uid 100); 29 Nov 2001 07:34:39 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:34:39 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain> <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Note that Apple examined an OS that didn't have > > all the multi-user complexity that Unix has, ran > > - like a bat out of hell - on Apple hardware, and > > on MP boxes with those processors. They decided > > against adopting it. > What operating system was that, and what was their reason for rejecting it? BeOS, and I don't know. > > Not to mention VMS. > I'm not familiar with VMS. What elements of NT are inherited from it or > influenced by it? Most of the internals. The lead designer for WNT had previously been the lead designer for VMS. Which is why WNT has the same relation to VMS that HAL has to IBM. > > No, it doesn't cost billions of dollars. > Yes, it does. Even some application systems can cost hundreds of millions of > dollars to develop. Be - including BeOS - was bought by Palm for US $11 million . Be's revenues were well under a million dollars a year . You can find financial information about them at ; none of the fiugres were over US$100 million per year. To the nearest billion dollars, BeOS was free. I know people who view writing "another little RTOS" for some custom hardware project as a minor part of the project; the single-board hardware design is the hard part. They are writing OS's for thousands of dollars. > > Sun, Apple and DEC have all done OS development > > projects that they abandoned. > Why did they abandon them? Well, for Sun and Apple because they decided that their wasn't a viable market for the product. For DEC, it was because the group that developed them was a blue-sky research group whose charter prevented them from using *any* current company product. There wasn't anyone on that coast who could give someone permission to run a competing product, no matter who they worked for. Though I did set up a Sun while at DEC, then watched the hardware designers disassemble it. > > I'm pretty sure Be didn't have billions of dollars > > to spend, and they put a very nice little OS on the > > market, though it wasn't suitable for much off the > > desktop. > Why wasn't it suitable for the desktop? You got that backwards - it was suitable for some peoples desktop, but it wasn't suitable for much else. It wasn't multi-user, and the hardware didn't scale beyond four processors. For me, it wasn't suitable for the desktop because they pretty much cloned the Mac desktop, which I can't stand. > > Of course not - the underlying OS is largely irrelevant > > if it provides all the needed functions. > So their choice of OS cannot be used to argue that it was technically superior > for the task. I'm not arguing that it's technically superior. I'm arguing that it's acceptable for the task at hand. > > Horse puckey. If you've used batch environments, you > > might be familiar with SAS, which communicated large > > volumes of data, but did it by passing a data set > > (or a small number of them) from one command to the > > next. > Sequential processing, not parallel. Yup, but it's still data analysis. > > Most - if not all - modern Unices allow multiple > > independent threads of control in a single address > > space. > Threads, or processes? Threads. Process don't share an address space. They can share memory if you need them to, but that's not as tightly coupled as threads in the process, and you wanted tightly coupled communications. > > I recommend that most of my relatives run Windows, > > not FreeBSD. > So do I. And when they ask about Linux, I discourage them in the strongest > terms. If you can't support a Unix desktop, and can't recommend someone to them who can, that's probably the best thing to do. If there's a local Linux users group, you might point them at that with a warning that if they get in trouble, they'll have to get help from the users group, not you. That's *especially* true if they are complaining about problems in the Windows GUI. > > Come on - what do you want to do on your > > desktop that you can't do on FreeBSD? > I have a hundred or so applications on my desktop that will not run under UNIX. That means Unix is an inferior processor for those applications, not that it's an inferior desktop. Which ones can you not find an acceptable alternative for on Unix? But I think I already answered that question. > Additionally, I can assign permissions via ACLs in NT, to both files and > objects. I don't have to run anything special to get a GUI, since that is the > native environment. Wait a minute, I thought all that multi-user protection stuff was *bad* for a desktop. > > I have as yet to see you list a single thing you > > wanted FreeBSD to do as a desktop that it couldn't. > How do I start Adobe Illustrator on FreeBSD? With the command "gimp". They changed the commands and UI, though. > > For a real giggle, consider that I've seen > > Windows running on the MIPS processor running > > with the opposite endianness of the MIPS boxes. > I saw a MIPS machine in a lab once; I don't recall if I actually used it. It > was running NT. MIPS didn't sell very many of them, though SGI used the processor, then bought the company to make sure they could get enough of them. For a while, the second most popular Unix workstation on the market was the DEC MIPS-based box. They swapped the endianness of it to match their other hardware. We did an in-house port of NT to that box in the early 90s, before DEC dropped the product line in favor of the Alpha. > > The same was true of OS/2. > Yes, but OS/2 was designed around the MS-DOS paradigm, which was already dying. > NT was designed around the Windows paradigm. IBM wanted the MS-DOS look and > feel, and Microsoft wanted the Windows look and feel, and that's why they parted > ways. The rest is history. Since paradigm means pretty much whatever you want it to mean, that statement is true, but empty of meaning. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 23:53:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D708F37B405 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix (dial-274.ocis.net [209.52.174.108]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27939 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:53:03 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:52:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3C0578D7.3474.29B2F4E@localhost> In-reply-to: <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> References: <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Anthony Atkielski types: > > Mike writes: > > > Note that Apple examined an OS that didn't have > > > all the multi-user complexity that Unix has, ran > > > - like a bat out of hell - on Apple hardware, and > > > on MP boxes with those processors. They decided > > > against adopting it. > > What operating system was that, and what was their reason for > > rejecting it? > > BeOS, and I don't know. Jean-Louie Gasse wanted too much money. Apple wasn't willing to spend the (IIRC) $100 million + for BeOS at the time. "My 500 Days at Apple" has a very in-depth look at the whole mess surrounding Pink, Copland, BeOS, and NeXT. > > > > Not to mention VMS. > > I'm not familiar with VMS. What elements of NT are inherited from > > it or influenced by it? > Most of the internals. The lead designer for WNT had previously been > the lead designer for VMS. Which is why WNT has the same relation to > VMS that HAL has to IBM. "Showstopper" gives a great run-down on all the features that NT pulled from VMS. And all the things they did wrong with version 4 (like pull the graphics into the Kernel, thus breaking the whole concept of the HAL). > > > Sun, Apple and DEC have all done OS development > > > projects that they abandoned. > > Why did they abandon them? > Well, for Sun and Apple because they decided that their wasn't a > viable market for the product. Not to mention that the Apple products were way behind schedule and nowhere near capable of doing what they had promised. By the end of the whole debacle, it was easier to graft a UI on an existing OS than to continue develping their own OS. > > > Come on - what do you want to do on your > > > desktop that you can't do on FreeBSD? > > I have a hundred or so applications on my desktop that will not run > > under UNIX. Are you beholden to the application, or the task the application performs? There is a *very* big difference. > That means Unix is an inferior processor for those applications, not > that it's an inferior desktop. Which ones can you not find an > acceptable alternative for on Unix? But I think I already answered > that question. Precisely. > > Additionally, I can assign permissions via ACLs in NT, to both files > > and objects. I don't have to run anything special to get a GUI, > > since that is the native environment. > Wait a minute, I thought all that multi-user protection stuff was > *bad* for a desktop. [aside, this has happened many times throughout this thread. i no longer know which side Anthony is arguing, each message is different] > > > I have as yet to see you list a single thing you > > > wanted FreeBSD to do as a desktop that it couldn't. > > How do I start Adobe Illustrator on FreeBSD? > With the command "gimp". They changed the commands and UI, though. :) > > > The same was true of OS/2. > > Yes, but OS/2 was designed around the MS-DOS paradigm, which was > > already dying. NT was designed around the Windows paradigm. IBM > > wanted the MS-DOS look and feel, and Microsoft wanted the Windows > > look and feel, and that's why they parted ways. The rest is > > history. OS/2 1.x and 2.x were designed to be CLI OSes and were to be the successor for MS-DOS. OS/2 3.x was to be the graphical "next step". However, Billy-boy doesn't play nice with others (and was secretly trying to make Windows work), Big Blue got miffed, and they split. Note that during the development of NT, the *primary* UI was supposed to be the OS/2 shell (NT was originally designed to have multiple UIs -- just like Unix -- but Billy-boy wanted to promote his Windows toy and that became the primary shell). It wasn't until the last quarter or so of development that this was changed to the Windows UI. IOW, virtually everything you way in the above paragraph is irrelevant. As an aside, Microsoft was originally spelt Micro-Soft, then MicroSoft, and it can be found that one on some of their literature still. It wasn't until a few years ago that they changed it to Microsoft. Thus, it is not incorrect to capitalise the middle S. Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 28 23:58: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81CD37B416 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAT7vox02413; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:57:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain><017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org><01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:57:49 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Which is why WNT has the same relation to > VMS that HAL has to IBM. None at all, you mean? I agree. > Be - including BeOS - was bought by Palm > for US $11 million ... And where is this OS today? > Well, for Sun and Apple because they decided > that their wasn't a viable market for the product. If they can develop an OS for thousands of dollars, why not follow it through to completion, anyway? > You got that backwards ... Sorry. > ... it was suitable for some peoples desktop, but > it wasn't suitable for much else. It wasn't > multi-user, and the hardware didn't scale beyond > four processors. Sounds just like a Mac. > For me, it wasn't suitable for the desktop because > they pretty much cloned the Mac desktop, which I > can't stand. Hmm ... see above. > Yup, but it's still data analysis. It's easy to do stuff sequentially. > If there's a local Linux users group, you might point > them at that ... Why? Why recommend Linux over Windows? > That's *especially* true if they are complaining about > problems in the Windows GUI. I don't understand. Why would they complain about Windows problems to a Linux users' group? > That means Unix is an inferior processor for > those applications, not that it's an inferior > desktop. Either way, it pretty much excludes UNIX. > Which ones can you not find an acceptable alternative > for on Unix? I provided a list once before. > Wait a minute, I thought all that multi-user > protection stuff was *bad* for a desktop. It is, but I typically run my desktop machines as servers as well, and I like to secure remote access to the machines. Additionally, in an insecure environment, I run the desktop that way, too. In an office, for example, I sign on to a user account for using the machine, and I lock it each time I step away from my desk. It is true that all this adds a lot of overhead to the system, which is why NT requires more resources than 9x. It's also one way in which NT looks a lot more like UNIX than 9x. > With the command "gimp". They changed the commands > and UI, though. Illustrator is a vector-based drawing application. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 0: 3:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5ED137B405 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix (dial-274.ocis.net [209.52.174.108]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA29208 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:03:19 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:03:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3C057B40.23958.2A498E7@localhost> In-reply-to: <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Mike writes: > > Which is why WNT has the same relation to > > VMS that HAL has to IBM. > None at all, you mean? I agree. V --> W M --> N S --> T H --> I A --> B L --> M No, it's not a coincidence. Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 0: 4:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8619937B405 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fAT84Ga65919; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:04:16 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <022e01c178ac$71267ba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: , References: <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0578D7.3474.29B2F4E@localhost> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:04:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie writes: > And all the things they did wrong with version > 4 (like pull the graphics into the Kernel, > thus breaking the whole concept of the HAL). I remember that well, and it worried me a lot. But Microsoft desperately wanted to improve the performance of graphics on NT (for games and things), and it wanted to transplant a lot of cruddy 9x code into NT to give it the same look and feel without spending too much money, so the changes were made. It did taint the OS--and more significantly, it made the OS less suitable as a server. There's a certain cognitive dissonance in Microsoft wanted to position NT as a server, even as it destabilizes the platform to make it work more like a desktop. Windows 2000 and XP apparently went even further in the desktop direction. I guess MS still doesn't understand that you can't have an OS that does _both_ of these things optimally. > Are you beholden to the application, or the > task the application performs? There is a *very* > big difference. Often to the application itself, because of the need to exchange data with others. If only results counted, I'd have a lot more flexibility. > [aside, this has happened many times throughout > this thread. i no longer know which side Anthony > is arguing, each message is different] Perhaps your misconception is in believing that I'm "arguing a side." > It wasn't until a few years ago that they changed > it to Microsoft. Thus, it is not incorrect to > capitalise the middle S. Unless you are speaking in a specific historical context, trademarks should be spelled as given by their owners. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 0:19:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C33D37B417 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fAT8JMd66931; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:19:22 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <023a01c178ae$8d60d2a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: , References: <3C057B40.23958.2A498E7@localhost> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:19:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie writes: > No, it's not a coincidence. Part of a worldwide extraterrestrial conspiracy, perhaps? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 0:19:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4139037B420 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-26-38.txucom.net [209.34.26.38]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fASNBJ117663; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:11:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: GB Clark II To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:11:20 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> In-Reply-To: <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I've put my comments inline so as not to lose the context. I've also moved it to chat, this does not belong on the questions list...:) On Wednesday 28 November 2001 15:36, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mike writes: > > You've said this before, but haven't done > > anything to demonstrate it. > > I'm surprised that you think it requires demonstration. UNIX was designed > to service hundreds of users sitting in front of dumb terminals; it was not > designed to drive a single resource-intensive GUI on dedicated hardware for > a single user. UNIX architecture puts a huge emphasis on multiple, > independent users and processes, and very little emphasis on the kind of > close integration and hardware dependency that a complex GUI requires. > These characteristics make for an excellent timesharing system or server, > but they also make for a poor desktop environment. The UNIX architecture of 30 years ago is long gone. Most modern day UNIX/unix-like OS have everything need to run a single user just fine. There is nothing that I know of in the Windows architecture (outside of having a graphics sub-system in the kernel) that makes it any better. Please point those parts of the Windows architecture that make is superior as a desktop system. The only thing Windows has going for it is good salesmanship and many of applications. As far as a GUI goes, I'll put a SGI UNIX system aginst Windows any day of the week. Also, not all UNIX/unix-like systems are created equal. Comparing FreeBSD on a Duron-850 (my home box) to 4.2BSD running on a VAX (13 years ago) is like comparing apples and grapes. > Windows is the other way around. It has virtually no concept of multiple > users and no provision for hardware independence. Processes and users are > not intended to work simultaneously on the same machine on completely > different tasks. As a result, it is very good for dedicated, single-user > desktop use, but very poor for timesharing use and mediocre for server use. > > If you believe that UNIX is as good a desktop as Windows, then logically > you must also believe that Windows is as good a server as UNIX. An > extension of this logic leads to the conclusion that the operating systems > are essentially identical--but that obviously is not the reality. Excuse me? Which logic class shows that? Group A = Server Platform Group B = Desktop Platform Platform 1 = A + B Platform 2 = B Thats almost like saying that if you have brown hair and are left handed, all left handed people have brown hair. Person 1 = BH + LH Person 2 = LH Just because something is in two groups does not make the two groups equal. It almost smells like circular logic. > > I've been making heavy desktop use of, and > > supporting users making heavy desktop use of, > > Unix since 1985. Nothing has happened during > > that time that in any way indicated that Unix > > is "incompatible with heavy desktopp use." > > Most operating systems can be stretched to fill all sorts of roles for > which they weren't intended. That doesn't make them good in such > applications, nor does it make them superior to purpose-built operating > systems for those same applications. > > It's interesting to see how hard people will try to prove or at least argue > that their pet operating systems are the best for all purposes, or even > adequate for all purposes. I've never seen an operating system that can do > it all, and I expect that I never will. > Again, outside of more applications, please tell me how MS Windows is a better desktop platform at the architectural level than FreeBSD. From what I've seen from MS Windows 2.X to Windows 2000 (I don't have XP) is that MS Windows does nothing good. Yes, Windows 2000 comes alot closer, but my brother-inlaw still reboots his 2000 box many more times than I do under FreeBSD. (As a side note, he plays no games on the box) > > Quite to the contrary, every time someone has > > asked me to work on Win 9x or Macs - through the > > mid 90s - they crashed regularly under my > > normal usage patterns. That convinced me that, > > if anything, those operating systems aren't > > suitable for "heave desktop use". > > Heavy desktop use requires NT and its descendants. Windows 9x and the Mac > are for occasional, non-critical desktop use, for precisely the reasons you > cite. And then you lose the one area where Windows has any benifits, game playing. GB -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 0:19:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABE437B41C for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-26-38.txucom.net [209.34.26.38]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAT4H7120829; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:17:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: GB Clark II To: "Anthony Atkielski" Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:17:09 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> In-Reply-To: <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01112822170907.13219@prime.vsservices.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 28 November 2001 21:48, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > GB Clark II writes: > > The UNIX architecture of 30 years ago is long > > gone. Most modern day UNIX/unix-like OS have > > everything need to run a single user just fine. > > UNIX already had that thirty years ago. > > And root has always been there. > > > There is nothing that I know of in the Windows > > architecture (outside of having a graphics > > sub-system in the kernel) that makes it any better. > > That's like saying, "There's nothing I know of in a car that makes it > better than a horse, except that it goes faster." Having a good GUI is all > it takes, in this case. > > > Please point those parts of the Windows > > architecture that make is superior as a desktop > > system. > > See above. The lack of a multiuser environment is usually an advantage as > well, along with the heavy integration with the hardware (both of these are > to the detriment of security, but desktop users don't care about security). > > > The only thing Windows has going for it is good > > salesmanship and many of applications. > > "Many" meaning 100,000 applications, including all of the leading > applications. That's enough! > > Salesmanship has not really been a factor. There was never much > competition. > > > As far as a GUI goes, I'll put a SGI UNIX system > > aginst Windows any day of the week. > > Perhaps you will, but most users won't. They don't care. > > Why would an average person going out to buy a computer for his desktop > decide on SGI UNIX instead of Microsoft Windows? > > > Also, not all UNIX/unix-like systems are created > > equal. Comparing FreeBSD on a Duron-850 (my home > > box) to 4.2BSD running on a VAX (13 years ago) > > is like comparing apples and grapes. > > They are still far more alike than any version of UNIX and Windows. > > One of the advantages of UNIX, by the way, is that it will still run on > slow, small hardware platforms. Windows tends to use all the hardware you > can buy for it. Of course, desktop users don't care, since that's what > they buy the hardware for, anyway, but for servers, this is a serious > problem with the Window s platform. > > > It almost smells like circular logic. > > It's not religious faith, and to some people, anything that doesn't adhere > to dogma "smells." > > > Again, outside of more applications, please tell > > me how MS Windows is a better desktop platform > > at the architectural level than FreeBSD. > > I already have, several times. But even if I had not, having more > applications is already _more than enough_ to make it a better choice. You > cannot discount an overwhelming advantage simply because it makes the > comparison so lopsided. > > > From what I've seen from MS Windows 2.X to Windows > > 2000 (I don't have XP) is that MS Windows does > > nothing good. > > For a desktop user, it does most things better than UNIX, from an ergonomic > standpoint and often from a technical standpoint. > > > Yes, Windows 2000 comes alot closer, but my brother= > > inlaw still reboots his 2000 box many more times > > than I do under FreeBSD. > > Windows NT/2000 systems run for years in stable environments. Desktop > users tend to run a lot of junk, much of which has to be trusted by the OS, > and that crashes systems. > > My FreeBSD system crashed within two hours of my first installation of KDE. > It never crashes when I'm not trying to use it as a desktop. This is not > a coincidence. > > It amazes me, for example, that I have to run with secure_level = -1 in > order to use an X server. This is a very bad sign, as it means that the X > server is not secure. No wonder it crashes the system. > > > And then you lose the one area where Windows has > > any benifits, game playing. > > That is yet another of many benefits; I've described some of the others > already. You edited alot of it out. It is way out context. Goodbye, GB -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 0:51:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A09237B41A for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:51:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id D5EF8FC2; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:51:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:51:29 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Freddie Cash Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011129025129.B18351@over-yonder.net> References: <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C057B40.23958.2A498E7@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C057B40.23958.2A498E7@localhost>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 12:03:12AM -0800 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 12:03:12AM -0800 I heard the voice of Freddie Cash, and lo! it spake thus: > > Mike writes: > > > Which is why WNT has the same relation to > > > VMS that HAL has to IBM. > > > None at all, you mean? I agree. > > V --> W > M --> N > S --> T I won't argue this. > H --> I > A --> B > L --> M I will argue this. > No, it's not a coincidence. Yes it is. --- For many years I have been embarassed by the -- totally unfounded -- rumor that the name HAL was derived by one letter displacement from IBM. In an attempt to exorcise this computer-age myth, I even went to the trouble of getting Dr. Chandra, HAL's incentor, to deny it in _2010: Odyssey Two_. -- Arthur C. Clarke, "Acknowledgements", _3001: The Final Odyssey_ --- -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 0:56:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A4BF837B41A for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 00:56:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18247 invoked by uid 100); 29 Nov 2001 08:55:50 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:55:50 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , "Mike Meyer" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain> <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain> <021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Andrew writes: > > So, using Unix on your entire product line as > > the primary OS is a poor technical decision? > It depends on what the product line is supposed to be doing. UNIX is a poor > choice for a desktop, single-user environment. For some people it is. For others it isn't. > > The market that they were aiming for was graphical > > workstations. > Workstations that cost 20 times more than a PC? Yes. > > Solaris (SunOS) and IRIX were free? > I don't know about those, but much of the success of UNIX has been due to its > low cost and availability. Unix kept getting more and more expensive. Last time I checked, a source license ran to $70K, and you had to cough up dollars to AT&T - yes, I checked that long ago - for each copy sold depending on how many users were going to run on it. > If you can send this from Windows, why do you need to configure anything else to > do the same thing? Because the data I want to use in them is on a Unix system? > > ... and merely chalked them up to software problems, > > since there's nothing in the world that could be wrong > > with your hardware. > That is the logical assumption. Vacuum tubes are no longer used in computers. True. The parts no longer conk out. Instead, cosmic rays cause them to change state at random if they aren't sufficiently shielded. > > For some of us, playing games results in dropping > > money on a gaming console, hooking it up to the > > TV and going. > I'm sure many people prefer that. It's certainly simple. Most such games are > too inane for my tastes, though. They are pretty much the same set as are available for the PC, sans network games. Personally, I'm a Go player. > Keep in mind that an operating system is a generalization of functions needed to > some extent by most application programs. The most efficient application > program is one that runs by itself, without an operating system, doing > everything on its own; however, that is hugely impractical in the real world. > An operating system is a compromise that sacrifices the specificity and > performance of a standalone application in exchange for convenience and > practicality. Note that this carries down to the next level. IBM figured they could get an order of magnitude better performance out of the 370 (and most following) lines if they wrote compilers to the micromachine instead of putting the 370 instruction set on all of them. > I can't understand what isn't true. I'm familiar with the many fallacies of > debate, and I do not fall prey to them. Yes you do. You were guilty of the "straw man" fallacy earlier. Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Which is why WNT has the same relation to > > VMS that HAL has to IBM. > None at all, you mean? I agree. Fred already answered that one. 2001 chose HAL because the letters are one further down the alphabet from IBM. Cutter chose WNT for the same reason, except he started with VMS. As I heard it, his reply when someone finally asked him about it was "What took you so long today." > > Be - including BeOS - was bought by Palm > > for US $11 million ... > And where is this OS today? Last I looked, you could download evaluation copies for PC hardware, and buy copies from Be. I'm not sure what Palm is going to do with it. They may be planning on using it on a next generation machine. Which wouldn't be the first time that an operating platform has moved from the desktop to the Palmtop. HP put DOS on their handhelds, and GeoWorks put their lightweight multitasker in the Nokia 9000 series phones, though Nokia eventually dropped that for Epoch. > > Well, for Sun and Apple because they decided > > that their wasn't a viable market for the product. > If they can develop an OS for thousands of dollars, why not follow it through to > completion, anyway? Because the cost of all the trimmings around an OS that make it marketable - and the marketing itself - are much larger than the cost of writing the OS. > > Yup, but it's still data analysis. > It's easy to do stuff sequentially. If you can do the job the easy way, why do it the hard way? > > If there's a local Linux users group, you might point > > them at that ... > Why? Why recommend Linux over Windows? I didn't say recommend it, I said point them at the group. If someone asks me for knowledge about something, I try and help them find it, I don't prejudge what they want it for. I may try and warn them about problems, and about the fact that if they install Linux, I might not be the best person to ask for help, but there's no reason to hide the alternatives from them. > > That's *especially* true if they are complaining about > > problems in the Windows GUI. > I don't understand. Why would they complain about Windows problems to a Linux > users' group? You need to put these together. If someone has complaints about the Windows GUI, it only makes sense to point them at a group that can provide them with a desktop that lets them use alternatives to that GUI. > > That means Unix is an inferior processor for > > those applications, not that it's an inferior > > desktop. > Either way, it pretty much excludes UNIX. Yup. Once you're caught in the trap of proprietary standards, getting out is a PITA. I've been there once, and have no plans on going back. Which means that if I ever switch a Windows desktop, I'm not going to run MS Office on it - I'll buy FrameMaker :-). > > Which ones can you not find an acceptable alternative > > for on Unix? > I provided a list once before. Yes, and we went through it and didn't find anything that didn't exist for FreeBSD. > > With the command "gimp". They changed the commands > > and UI, though. > Illustrator is a vector-based drawing application. Sorry, I saw "Adobe" and assumed "Photoshop". For Illustrator, it's "applix -gr", or if you've got the applix iconbar open, click on the icon with the ruler, triangle and pen. But they've still changed the commands and UI. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 2:34:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55B337B436 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fATAY5x02911; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:34:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , "Mike Meyer" , References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain><017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org><01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org><022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain><021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:34:06 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Unix kept getting more and more expensive. Last > time I checked, a source license ran to $70K ... The cost of a single systems programmer, in other words. Not very much compared to writing your own OS, and you can't get source licenses for any other OS at all (almost). > 2001 chose HAL because the letters are > one further down the alphabet from IBM. That is an urban legend, according to the author of the novel and screeplay. > Cutter chose WNT for the same reason, except he > started with VMS. As I heard it, his reply when > someone finally asked him about it was "What > took you so long today." That's not exactly a confirmation. More urban legend. > If you can do the job the easy way, why do > it the hard way? Because you're a geek? > ... but there's no reason to hide the > alternatives from them. Linux is not a viable alternative to Windows for non-IT users. No version of UNIX is. > If someone has complaints about the Windows GUI, > it only makes sense to point them at a group that > can provide them with a desktop that lets them > use alternatives to that GUI. If someone has complaints about the cost of gasoline, it only makes sense to point them at a group that can provide them with vehicles that use alternatives to gasoline. > Yes, and we went through it and didn't find > anything that didn't exist for FreeBSD. I didn't find anything that _did_ exist on FreeBSD. > For Illustrator, it's "applix -gr" ... No. For Illustrator, it's "Illustrator." I don't want something else that lets me draw; I want something that is 100% compatible with Illustrator. The same is true for all the other applications I've listed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 3: 9: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from terminal.sil.at (terminal.sil.at [194.152.178.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A16637B431 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 03:09:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from terminal.sil.at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by terminal.sil.at (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA28720; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:10:43 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200111291110.MAA28720@terminal.sil.at> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 01/07/2000 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-reply-to: anthony's message of Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:34:06 +0100. <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Face: "0|_!}6Ay;=lSa@qs\q$u2RZUTyW(m(?80f[OF3eR:4uk6rd&+9lUw"6ACgq]hyak/Io Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, > Linux is not a viable alternative to Windows for non-IT users. No version of > UNIX is. IRIX? *runs* later, cjm -- SILVER SERVER \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\ \\ \ cjm@sil.at, cjm@enemy.org, neo@bsdger.org www.sil.at | www.enemy.org ** PGP-Key-ID: 0xA941452D | "Why are we hiding from the police, dad?" - --------------------------| "Because we use vi, son. They use Emacs". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 3:59:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00FE037B442 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 03:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b181.otenet.gr [212.205.244.189]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fATBxQr17735; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:59:27 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fATBxOI75877; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:59:24 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:59:23 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011129115922.GA75539@hades.hell.gr> References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-11-29 04:48:41, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > > Please point those parts of the Windows architecture that make is > > superior as a desktop system. > > See above. The lack of a multiuser environment is usually an advantage as well, Why? > > Again, outside of more applications, please tell me how MS Windows > > is a better desktop platform at the architectural level than > > FreeBSD. > > I already have, several times. But even if I had not, having more > applications is already _more than enough_ to make it a better > choice. "More applications" for what definition of "more" and "applications" ? > This is a very bad sign, as it means that the X server is not > secure. No wonder it crashes the system. For what definition of "secure"? It needs to do stuff to the system console, that the kernel of the OS does not know (or does not care about). This seems to be modular, but insecure? -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 6:30:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay.tier1net.net (ns1.tier1net.net [216.38.65.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3E437B429 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.emievans.com [216.38.68.45] by relay.tier1net.net (SMTPD32-7.04) id A7426D30104; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 05:00:34 -0500 Received: from 211.197.214.178 ([211.197.214.178]) by mail.emievans.com (WinRoute Pro 4.1) with SMTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 05:00:35 -0500 From: dakim@musicf.co.kr Subject: =?EUC-KR?B?W7GksO1dIL/suK61v7PXuei03sirurg=?= To: kim@khonyaku.com Content-Type: text/html;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:59:30 +0900 X-Priority: 3 X-Library: Indy 8.0.25 Message-Id: <200111290500125.SM00345@mail.emievans.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ¡Ø ¢Ñ ¹è´Þ - ¾î¼­»¡¸®Á¡³Ý(5482.net) ¢Ð ¡Ø

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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 8: 5: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E0137B443 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:05:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3400 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 16:04:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Nov 2001 16:04:59 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011129025129.B18351@over-yonder.net> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:04:46 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Freddie Cash Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Nov-01 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 12:03:12AM -0800 I heard the voice of > Freddie Cash, and lo! it spake thus: >> > Mike writes: >> > > Which is why WNT has the same relation to >> > > VMS that HAL has to IBM. >> >> > None at all, you mean? I agree. >> >> V --> W >> M --> N >> S --> T > > I won't argue this. > > >> H --> I >> A --> B >> L --> M > > I will argue this. Err, this isn't HAL as in NT's Hardware Abstraction Layer, this is for the HAL 9000 from _2001: A Space Odyssey_ and is quite common folklore at least. Do you have proof that that is not where HAL's name came from? -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 8: 6:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail018.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail018.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E907E37B429 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax4-016.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.147.16]) by mail018.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fATG6BF14828 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:06:12 +1100 Message-ID: <3C065DE2.EA19E2DB@optusnet.com.au> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:10:10 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org><006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C0574C4.3040001@verizon.net><016e01c17889$23dfd990$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C05BD9D.4000909@verizon.net><01c601c17896$12bbf560$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.48855.19705.7956@guru.mired.org><01c101c17895$a2691360$0a00000a@atkielski.com><01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com><016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><000901c17892$28e1ce90$0301a8c0@nitedog><01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.54859.140475.279838@guru.mired.org> <021101c178a3$e6203f80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Mike writes: > > > People come along every so often saying "If > > you want to take over the desktop, you need > > to ...". I don't want it to take over the > > desktop ... Exactly. It's expecially bad amongst some Linux groups; the desire to go head-to-head with Microsoft. I think it would be far worse for free (and non-free) Unixen if Microsoft was chewing up the small and mid range server market than if it were to eat the rest of the desktop market. (Go Mac OS X!) <...> > > That's the major problem I see with Unix - > > the major distributions have concentrated on > > trying to take over the desktop, so it's a major > > PITA to set them up as a server, or doing something > > slightly unusual. > > You mean Linux, I presume? Linux was written by a student geek for other > student geeks, then was seized upon by clueless marketroids and media people and > made into a sort of deity to counter Microsoft's antichrist. As I've said > before, I suspect that most people using and promoting Linux had never heard of > UNIX at all before Linus came along with his school project, and so in their > eyes, a good operating system = a Windows-like operating system. Most Linux > users just want Windows without Microsoft, or they just want a machine to play > with. > You can't mean FreeBSD, in any case, since it doesn't install any kind of > desktop by default (thank goodness!--if it did, I wouldn't be running FreeBSD). Solaris 8, that came with my SunBlade 100, by default installs OpenWin and CDE desktop environments and doesn't have virtual terminals like FreeBSD does (as far as I know - I'm a Solaris newbie). The console is gratuitously drawn graphically and is way slow. I'm sure you can configure it to boot without CDE but that's not the default install. > > In other words, in trying to compete with Windows, > > they're adding all the problems I have with Windows. > > Exactly. And there is no way to get around that. If you want Windows > functionality, you get all the Windows complexity and instability that go with > it. > > This is why I've only briefly looked at X servers on UNIX. They make too much > of a mess, and it's easy to see that they very rapidly complexify and > destabilize the machine until it looks just like a clone of Windows. I already > have Windows; I don't need another wannabe running next to it. I think you have some terms mixed up. You seem to be referring to window managers (eg. twm) as X servers. X servers are the proggies that drive your hardware and draw windows. Realise too that the bloated packages that are KDE and Gnome are window managers + a bunch of other programs to draw the desktop icons, menu bar etc.. I have had very few problems with XFree86 + a simple WM (IceWM). If you are running Gnome or KDE then yes, you are adding a lot of complexity to your environment and increasing the chance of something going wrong. You underestimate the power and stability of X wielded by the forces of good. > > Yup. How much experience do you have with Unix > > as a desktop? > > Virtually none. Most of my exposure to UNIX has been command-line interfaces > only, which I tend to prefer with multiuser systems accessed remotely. So you haven't tried. > > > But not that provided by *your* choice of desktop > > environments, Windows NT. > > I'm not sure what you mean. > > > Yup. That's called a "driver". > > Drivers are parts of the OS in certain ways, despite claims to the contrary. > It's just that they aren't usually written with the rest of the OS, and they > tend to be buggy and unreliable. But since they must be _trusted_ by the OS, > they effectively are part of the OS, from the standpoint of things like > reliability. A system that crashes because of a bad driver is no more up and > running than a system that crashes because of a kernel failure. You must have been using Linux. > > Actually, you forgot the single most important > > resource for supporting hundreds of users - I/O > > throughput - but it's probably got that as well. > > For support of dumb terminals, I'm sure it would suffice. I don't know how well > it would support X terminals, as I'm not sure how much additional overhead X > clients impose on the system. More proof you haven't tried. X is pretty efficient over a network because the X server does the drawing of windows. Remember from above the X server handles the hardware and runs on the machine the user is sitting at. The X clients (eg. programs like netscape) run on the remote machine. So you have your FreeBSD machine in the back room doing the background grunt work running apps, and your slim desktop machine with half-decent video card, doing the graphical work, displaying the apps with an X server (X-Win32 on Windows or XFree86 on another FreeBSD machine for eg.). It works beautifully. > > It was sort of boggling to compute the values > > for those things, and realize that the pizza box > > and a couple of shoeboxes had more of everything > > important than the two refrigerators it replaced. > > Yes. What worries me is that software seems to be moving in exactly the > opposite direction, and at nearly the same speed. > > > That's why I didn't bother looking at Windows NT. > > Ah ... big mistake. Windows NT and the consumer versions of Windows are > completely different operating systems. For some reason, Microsoft has never > wanted to make that clear. Win2k is prooving to be relatively stable for desktop use, (much better than Win98) but I still wouldn't use it for a server. IanP To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 11:49:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE8137B416 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fATJn5x04241; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:49:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129115922.GA75539@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:49:02 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > Why? Because a single-user system does not have the overhead of a multiuser system, and it is more ergonomic as well. > "More applications" for what definition of "more" > and "applications" ? More = larger number, applications = anything that runs under the OS but is not part of it. > For what definition of "secure"? Not crashing the system. > It needs to do stuff to the system console, that > the kernel of the OS does not know (or does not > care about). It should not be bypassing the OS. > This seems to be modular, but insecure? Yes. Windows NT doesn't allow this, or at least it didn't (many corners have been cut in more recent versions, sacrificing security for performance). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 11:56:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD65737B419; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fATJuhk86854; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:56:43 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <02c801c1790f$f83d45c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" , "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: , "Freddie Cash" References: Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:56:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John writes: > Do you have proof that that is not where HAL's > name came from? The author's own repeated denial's are pretty good evidence. Of course, you can't prove a negative. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 12: 0:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9C437B417 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26541 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 19:59:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Nov 2001 19:59:53 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:59:40 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Giorgos Keramidas Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Nov-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Giorgos writes: > >> Why? > > Because a single-user system does not have the overhead of a multiuser > system, > and it is more ergonomic as well. Humm, so I guess the fact that the terminal room desktop boxes I setup at BSDCon last year that booted over the network and automatically logged in on bootup into an X session that restarted from scratch when a user logged out was a lot of overhead? Amazing since it probably took all of 10 minutes of effort to do. Well, maybe 15 since I like to test things in stages. >> "More applications" for what definition of "more" >> and "applications" ? > > More = larger number, applications = anything that runs under the OS but is > not > part of it. Oh, yes, having 400 versions of tic tac toe is very valuable. Very much indeed. :) >> For what definition of "secure"? > > Not crashing the system. Umm, that's called "stable", not "secure". Granted, I still use Windows for games, but to be very bluntly honest, the _only_ applications for which being closer to the hardware than most Unix-like OS's allow is games. Word processors, spreadsheets, presentation tools, etc. do not need to grub around in the video cards internals. They just don't. Only games need this stuff. Windows is fine for games except that it tends to lock up and crash a lot even then. I've watched pieces of this thread, and your arguments are really fairly rediculous. You constantly contradict yourself and seem to be on a holy war to convince people that Windows is the only viable desktop for anyone in an attempt to combat people who say that their pet OS is perfect everywhere. The irony is that you are the one proclaiming that your pet OS is perfect on all desktops. The real truth which you think you are communicating (but aren't) is that different OS's are good in different places. This includes within the desktop arena. FreeBSD is a better desktop for me than Windows since I rarely play games and spend most of my time either reading mail, hacking code, or chatting on IRC. Since the code I'm hacking is the FreeBSD kernel, it is quite a bit easier for me to use FreeBSD as my desktop for doing this. However, my parents use Windows on their machine as that is more comfortable for them. Then again, they have so many problems with it that I'm tempted to at least put a FreeBSD gateway/nat box in their house to eliminate all the network problems at least. :) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 12:11: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B00737B507; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fATKAqx04330; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:10:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02d901c17911$f25116d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Giorgos Keramidas" References: Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:10:52 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John writes: > Umm, that's called "stable", not "secure". A system that is unstable is insecure as well. It is vulnerable to DoS attacks, for example. > Then again, they have so many problems with it > that I'm tempted to at least put a FreeBSD > gateway/nat box in their house to eliminate all the > network problems at least. :) A router is cheaper. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 12:21:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D1C37B41B for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26758 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 20:21:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Nov 2001 20:21:34 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02c801c1790f$f83d45c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:21:03 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Origin of HAL 9000 Cc: Freddie Cash , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Matthew D. Fuller" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Nov-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> Do you have proof that that is not where HAL's >> name came from? > > The author's own repeated denial's are pretty good evidence. Of course, you > can't prove a negative. Well, if that's what the author claims, you can't find a more authoritative source. Sure makes for good folklore though. Did the author say where the name did come from? -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 12:21:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00EA37B41D for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26782 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 20:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Nov 2001 20:21:35 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <02d901c17911$f25116d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:21:05 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Nov-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> Umm, that's called "stable", not "secure". > > A system that is unstable is insecure as well. It is vulnerable to DoS > attacks, > for example. That's not relevant to what you said. You said someting to the affect that the apps don't crash as often. Crashing often is called instability, not insecurity. Very plain and simple. More use of twisting words instead of actually presenting arguments. Oh well, you only make yourself look bad by doing that. :) >> Then again, they have so many problems with it >> that I'm tempted to at least put a FreeBSD >> gateway/nat box in their house to eliminate all the >> network problems at least. :) > > A router is cheaper. I can't remotely login to a router from home to fix problems for them. :) Also, my parents are actually fairly smart, so it would give them a play system to expand their horizons. Not to mention using their currently idle old 486/66 for free is cheaper than the router. :) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 12:48:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.acidpit.org [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0627437B417 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rch@localhost) by tsunami.acidpit.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fATKmn447367 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:48:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:48:49 -0500 From: Robert Hough To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011129154849.A47136@acidpit.org> References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129115922.GA75539@hades.hell.gr> <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 20:49:02 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 29, 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Because a single-user system does not have the overhead of a > multiuser system, and it is more ergonomic as well. Why when I see you write ergonomic, do I keep thinking of the movie "The Princess Bride"? Anthony: ergonomic! Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means. Sorry, I'm getting old. I just have a hard time fitting your use of the word ergonomics into the discussion at hand. Perhaps I just don't have all that definitions for ergonomic in my head? -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 12:51:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB9B37B41E; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:51:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.142.151.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.142.151] helo=blossom.cjclark.org) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 169Y96-0007gS-00; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:51:01 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fATKouW09533; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:50:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:50:56 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: John Baldwin Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Freddie Cash , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Origin of HAL 9000 Message-ID: <20011129125056.D8815@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <02c801c1790f$f83d45c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 12:21:03PM -0800 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 12:21:03PM -0800, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 29-Nov-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > John writes: > > > >> Do you have proof that that is not where HAL's > >> name came from? > > > > The author's own repeated denial's are pretty good evidence. Of course, you > > can't prove a negative. > > Well, if that's what the author claims, you can't find a more authoritative > source. Sure makes for good folklore though. Did the author say where the > name did come from? Clarke has always stuck with Heuristic ALgorithm. Perhaps an oxymoron, but that's the point. Anyone else catch "2001: HAL's Legacy?" It was recently broadcast on PBS stations. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 12:53:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.inter7.com (ns1.inter7.com [209.218.8.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 88FCD37B41B for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5894 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 20:53:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nitedog) (65.6.158.15) by evanston.inter7.com with SMTP; 29 Nov 2001 20:53:24 -0000 Message-ID: <001101c17918$8020e520$0301a8c0@nitedog> Reply-To: "Randall Hamilton" From: "Randall Hamilton" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Giorgos Keramidas" References: <02d901c17911$f25116d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:57:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > John writes: > > > Umm, that's called "stable", not "secure". > > A system that is unstable is insecure as well. It is vulnerable to DoS attacks, > for example. I disagree completly. i know of many secure unstable machines. sloaris x86 for example :) Putting jest aside..a unstable machine is not insecure..have a unstable machine without any kind of network...and its still unstable..putting the same machine on a network does not automaticly make it insecure. > > Then again, they have so many problems with it > > that I'm tempted to at least put a FreeBSD > > gateway/nat box in their house to eliminate all the > > network problems at least. :) > > A router is cheaper. and weaker. most cheap-low end network routers for dsl/cable have very weak thruput and packet handling...not to mention most that have a built in 'hub' only offer 10mbit..some 100mbit..but both being non switched. a p200-p300 box and a good 100mbit switch would be far far superior to one of those rinky dink setups, and would cost little more. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 13:10:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C464F37B417 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6224 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 21:11:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Nov 2001 21:11:11 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011129145003.V46769@elvis.mu.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:10:17 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Dennis the Menace Cc: Nyteckjobs@aol.com, Eric Melville , chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Nov-01 Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Eric Melville [011129 13:59] wrote: >> > The concept that "netgraph hooks" are a "leg up" on say, ETs drivers that >> > have integrated bandwidth management and prioritization, WAN bridging >> > support, load balancing and a probably 25% performance advantage is a bit >> > entertaining. Unless you need to do some convoluted encapsulation netgraph >> > is, aside from being appallingly non-standard to anything else in the >> > market, >> > not much of an "advantage", and its a poster child for the trade off of >> > "flexibility" versus performance. >> > >> > Lets face it. If you were going to sit down and design an interface for >> > frame >> > relay, multi-protocol support, etc, you'd have to be smoking something >> > pretty >> > strong to come up with netgraph. But its free and there is source, so it >> > must be great! >> >> Dennis, if you are going to continue trolling FreeBSD mailing lists from >> your AOL account, you should really consider choosing a name that does not >> coincide with what we already know or can easily find out about you. > > Just for historical reasons I have a question... > > Is Dennis and Elder Troll or was he cast of the fire and brimstone > of the BSDi dissolution? I thought he was a Balrog rather than just a plain Troll. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 13:10:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B56B37B41C for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17311 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 21:10:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Nov 2001 21:10:38 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011129154849.A47136@acidpit.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:10:24 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Robert Hough Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Nov-01 Robert Hough wrote: > On Thu, Nov 29, 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> >> Because a single-user system does not have the overhead of a >> multiuser system, and it is more ergonomic as well. > > Why when I see you write ergonomic, do I keep thinking of the movie "The > Princess Bride"? > > Anthony: ergonomic! > Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what > you think it means. > > > Sorry, I'm getting old. I just have a hard time fitting your use of the > word ergonomics into the discussion at hand. Perhaps I just don't have > all that definitions for ergonomic in my head? Inconceivable! -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 13:39:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id E0BBD37B41C; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:39:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:39:36 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Randall Hamilton , GB Clark II , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011129133936.A90325@FreeBSD.org> References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <000901c17892$28e1ce90$0301a8c0@nitedog> <01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 06:01:45AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > We would still be sitting in front of timesharing terminals connected to UNIX > systems. I know a good number of people that would consider that a step up from today's workplace full of chain letters, outlook viruses, and collections of porn and mp3 files. I also tend to agree with them. Don't forget that the goal here is to get work done. The number of applications which actually benefit in this regard from being graphical is very limited. As for the false perception of graphical items being easier to learn, every version of windows to date most certainly take time and effort to learn as well. Millions of sales in "for dummies" books support this claim. > I tried xeyes. It seemed useless to me. I think that was the point. > Actually, I prefer it for desktop workstation use over other versions of > Windows. The consumer versions of Windows are too unstable and insecure for my > tastes. Windows NT does not crash, except if you install buggy drivers (but > that is almost unavoidable, since drivers must be trusted by the OS). I could have sworn that was also your reason for X being bad. > I have no problem with people using FreeBSD as a desktop OS, if they really want > to fit square pegs into round holes. Using your very own "strength in numbers" logic, I can claim that your opinion is not of any value in comparison to someone like Steve Jobs. Jobs, incidently, thinks that unix makes a great desktop. > However, I should be _very_ upset if FreeBSD were "enhanced" to make it more GUI > friendly. I consider FreeBSD to be a superlative _server_ OS, and anything that > might be done to it to enhance the GUI "desktop experience" would almost > certainly diminish its utility as a server dramatically. This may be a problem with windows, where the interface is the OS, but such is not the case for X. You can write a window manager designed for idiots without affecting the rest of the operating system. > This is one reason why I'm not running X on the machine. Too much of the > machine is required to run a GUI, and that's just a waste of resources on a > server. The console on my machine spends about 99% of its time running the > text-based Beastie screensaver--pretty much as you'd expect for a server system. I'd call the screensaver a waste as well. Why does your server have a screen? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 13:50:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id A5A1637B417; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:50:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:50:35 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , "Andrew C. Hornback" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011129135035.B90325@FreeBSD.org> References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain><017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org><01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 08:57:49AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If they can develop an OS for thousands of dollars, why not follow it through to > completion, anyway? In case you didn't notice, you can develop one for zero dollars. > > ... it was suitable for some peoples desktop, but > > it wasn't suitable for much else. It wasn't > > multi-user, and the hardware didn't scale beyond > > four processors. > > Sounds just like a Mac. Sounds more like windows to me. I have a mac, and any number of users can ssh into it and use it at the same time. That doesn't work so well with windows. If it does work at all, it certainly doesn't without expensive third-party packages. > > That means Unix is an inferior processor for > > those applications, not that it's an inferior > > desktop. > > Either way, it pretty much excludes UNIX. Anthony Atkielski, this is procmail; procmail, this is Anthony Atkielski. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 13:56: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 59B3937B41E; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:55:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:55:56 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: John Baldwin Cc: Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Giorgos Keramidas Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011129135556.C90325@FreeBSD.org> References: <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 11:59:40AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've watched pieces of this thread, and your arguments are really fairly > rediculous. You constantly contradict yourself and seem to be on a holy war to > convince people that Windows is the only viable desktop for anyone in an > attempt to combat people who say that their pet OS is perfect everywhere. The > irony is that you are the one proclaiming that your pet OS is perfect on all > desktops. The real truth which you think you are communicating (but aren't) is > that different OS's are good in different places. This includes within the > desktop arena. FreeBSD is a better desktop for me than Windows since I rarely > play games and spend most of my time either reading mail, hacking code, or > chatting on IRC. Since the code I'm hacking is the FreeBSD kernel, it is quite > a bit easier for me to use FreeBSD as my desktop for doing this. This is an excellent point which the most everyone seems to miss these days. I find windows very difficult to use as a desktop. Too much clicking, and not enough tools. So, for windows being user-friendly, I am a user too, and I don't find it friendly at all. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 14: 8:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CCEAE37B416 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28725 invoked by uid 100); 29 Nov 2001 22:08:10 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15366.45514.579030.680673@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:08:10 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain> <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain> <021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org> <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Unix kept getting more and more expensive. Last > > time I checked, a source license ran to $70K ... > The cost of a single systems programmer, in other words. Not very much compared > to writing your own OS, and you can't get source licenses for any other OS at > all (almost). No, the original source cost you a year of programmer time. You then had to jack up the price to cover the license fees going back to AT&T. That's non-trivial. > > 2001 chose HAL because the letters are > > one further down the alphabet from IBM. > That is an urban legend, according to the author of the novel and screeplay. I had never seen the quote from Clarke before, or even heard that he had denied it. Thank you for providing the information along with a reference. > > Cutter chose WNT for the same reason, except he > > started with VMS. As I heard it, his reply when > > someone finally asked him about it was "What > > took you so long today." > That's not exactly a confirmation. It's as good as most of your arguments. > > If you can do the job the easy way, why do > > it the hard way? > Because you're a geek? No, lusers do things the hard way. Geeks find an easier way to do them. All good developers are lazy. > > ... but there's no reason to hide the > > alternatives from them. > Linux is not a viable alternative to Windows for non-IT users. No version of > UNIX is. Why don't you let them decide that for themselves, instead of reaching that conclusion based on your shallow exposure to the problem. > > If someone has complaints about the Windows GUI, > > it only makes sense to point them at a group that > > can provide them with a desktop that lets them > > use alternatives to that GUI. > If someone has complaints about the cost of gasoline, it only makes sense to > point them at a group that can provide them with vehicles that use alternatives > to gasoline. Exactly. In that case, I'd point them to the Electric Power Research Institute, which is the only place I've ever seen that had parking spaces marked "Electric Vehicles Only." > > Yes, and we went through it and didn't find > > anything that didn't exist for FreeBSD. > I didn't find anything that _did_ exist on FreeBSD. For every task you listed, I found an application. > > For Illustrator, it's "applix -gr" ... > No. For Illustrator, it's "Illustrator." I don't want something else that lets > me draw; I want something that is 100% compatible with Illustrator. The same is > true for all the other applications I've listed. Ah. In that case, I must conclude that Windows - in any flavor - is completely unsuitable for desktop use because there isn't a version of ratpoison for it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 14:16:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 90DD337B405; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:16:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:16:30 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Mike Meyer Cc: Anthony Atkielski , "Andrew C. Hornback" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: electric cars (was: Feeding the Troll) Message-ID: <20011129141630.A95372@FreeBSD.org> References: <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain> <021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org> <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15366.45514.579030.680673@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15366.45514.579030.680673@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 04:08:10PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Exactly. In that case, I'd point them to the Electric Power Research > Institute, which is the only place I've ever seen that had parking > spaces marked "Electric Vehicles Only." Actually, they're all over California. I see them both in the Bay Area and in Los Angeles, especially at schools and shopping malls. In the case of my school, they come complete with the cars themselves, albeit for graduate students only, or some other restriction like that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 14:20:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DD937B41A; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:20:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7CF873A244; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:20:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:20:10 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Eric Melville Cc: Mike Meyer , Anthony Atkielski , "Andrew C. Hornback" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: electric cars (was: Feeding the Troll) Message-ID: <20011129142010.K76656@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net References: <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain> <021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org> <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15366.45514.579030.680673@guru.mired.org> <20011129141630.A95372@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011129141630.A95372@FreeBSD.org>; from eric@FreeBSD.org on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 02:16:30PM -0800 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 02:16:30PM -0800, Eric Melville wrote: > > Exactly. In that case, I'd point them to the Electric Power Research > > Institute, which is the only place I've ever seen that had parking > > spaces marked "Electric Vehicles Only." > > Actually, they're all over California. I see them both in the Bay Area and > in Los Angeles, especially at schools and shopping malls. In the case of my > school, they come complete with the cars themselves, albeit for graduate > students only, or some other restriction like that. Frys (chain of cheezy, cheap electronic stores) in Santa Clara has several Electric Car spaces including chargers in front of the entrance. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 14:32:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B21B37B41B for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29281 invoked by uid 100); 29 Nov 2001 22:32:10 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15366.46954.596994.653640@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:32:10 -0600 To: Eric Melville Cc: John Baldwin , Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Giorgos Keramidas Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <20011129135556.C90325@FreeBSD.org> References: <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129135556.C90325@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Melville types: > This is an excellent point which the most everyone seems to miss these > days. I find windows very difficult to use as a desktop. Too much clicking, > and not enough tools. So, for windows being user-friendly, I am a user too, > and I don't find it friendly at all. Quite correct. Let's take a very simple but very common task - moving the focus to another window. The GOMS measure for that in ratpoison is 1.95 seconds; with Windows I believe it comes out to 3.45 seconds, meaning using Windows is over 50% slower than ratpoison for that very common operation. Of course, if there's some other way to move the focus other than move your hand to the mouse, point at the window and click on it, those calculations will be off. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 14:35: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8896737B405 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14544 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 22:35:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Nov 2001 22:35:38 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15366.46954.596994.653640@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:34:50 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Anthony Atkielski , Eric Melville Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Nov-01 Mike Meyer wrote: > Eric Melville types: >> This is an excellent point which the most everyone seems to miss these >> days. I find windows very difficult to use as a desktop. Too much clicking, >> and not enough tools. So, for windows being user-friendly, I am a user too, >> and I don't find it friendly at all. > > Quite correct. Let's take a very simple but very common task - moving > the focus to another window. The GOMS measure for that in ratpoison is > 1.95 seconds; with Windows I believe it comes out to 3.45 seconds, > meaning using Windows is over 50% slower than ratpoison for that very > common operation. Of course, if there's some other way to move the > focus other than move your hand to the mouse, point at the window and > click on it, those calculations will be off. Alt-Tab cycles through windows. It may be off by default though. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 14:46:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 01D1A37B41B for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29581 invoked by uid 100); 29 Nov 2001 22:46:13 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15366.47797.671224.533868@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:46:13 -0600 To: John Baldwin Cc: Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Anthony Atkielski , Eric Melville Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: References: <15366.46954.596994.653640@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin types: > On 29-Nov-01 Mike Meyer wrote: > > Eric Melville types: > >> This is an excellent point which the most everyone seems to miss these > >> days. I find windows very difficult to use as a desktop. Too much clicking, > >> and not enough tools. So, for windows being user-friendly, I am a user too, > >> and I don't find it friendly at all. > > > > Quite correct. Let's take a very simple but very common task - moving > > the focus to another window. The GOMS measure for that in ratpoison is > > 1.95 seconds; with Windows I believe it comes out to 3.45 seconds, > > meaning using Windows is over 50% slower than ratpoison for that very > > common operation. Of course, if there's some other way to move the > > focus other than move your hand to the mouse, point at the window and > > click on it, those calculations will be off. > > Alt-Tab cycles through windows. It may be off by default though. That one's hard to calculate, because you don't know how many windows you'll have to go through. On my desktop, it could be as low as 1.55 seconds, or as high as 10.85 seconds. I'd call it 6.2 seconds as an average, meaning it's much worse than any of the other alternatives. Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 15:20:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CFBC37B419 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18878 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2001 23:20:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 Nov 2001 23:20:20 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15366.47797.671224.533868@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:20:07 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Cc: Eric Melville , Cc: Eric Melville , Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Giorgos Keramidas Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Nov-01 Mike Meyer wrote: > John Baldwin types: >> On 29-Nov-01 Mike Meyer wrote: >> > Eric Melville types: >> >> This is an excellent point which the most everyone seems to miss these >> >> days. I find windows very difficult to use as a desktop. Too much >> >> clicking, >> >> and not enough tools. So, for windows being user-friendly, I am a user >> >> too, >> >> and I don't find it friendly at all. >> > >> > Quite correct. Let's take a very simple but very common task - moving >> > the focus to another window. The GOMS measure for that in ratpoison is >> > 1.95 seconds; with Windows I believe it comes out to 3.45 seconds, >> > meaning using Windows is over 50% slower than ratpoison for that very >> > common operation. Of course, if there's some other way to move the >> > focus other than move your hand to the mouse, point at the window and >> > click on it, those calculations will be off. >> >> Alt-Tab cycles through windows. It may be off by default though. > > That one's hard to calculate, because you don't know how many windows > you'll have to go through. On my desktop, it could be as low as 1.55 > seconds, or as high as 10.85 seconds. I'd call it 6.2 seconds as an > average, meaning it's much worse than any of the other alternatives. You must hit Alt-Tab slow. :) You can just bang on it real fast until the window you want is highlighted. :) For me that is faster than using the mouse since I'm used to using the keyboard so much. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 15:51:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 778B637B41A for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 30631 invoked by uid 100); 29 Nov 2001 23:50:55 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15366.51679.493909.223032@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:50:55 -0600 To: John Baldwin Cc: Mike Meyer , Eric Melville , Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Giorgos Keramidas Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: References: <15366.47797.671224.533868@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin types: > On 29-Nov-01 Mike Meyer wrote: > >> Alt-Tab cycles through windows. It may be off by default though. > > > > That one's hard to calculate, because you don't know how many windows > > you'll have to go through. On my desktop, it could be as low as 1.55 > > seconds, or as high as 10.85 seconds. I'd call it 6.2 seconds as an > > average, meaning it's much worse than any of the other alternatives. > You must hit Alt-Tab slow. :) You can just bang on it real fast until the > window you want is highlighted. :) For me that is faster than using the mouse > since I'm used to using the keyboard so much. Ugh, I goofed. The numbers are really 3.1 for the case where it's the next window, and an additional 1.55 seconds per window. I normally have 8 windows visible, so the high end is 15.5 and the average is 7.75. GOMS specifies .2 seconds to hit a key, and 1.35 seconds to verify that the correct action happened afterwards. Note that GOMS isn't really meant to provide an accurate measurement of the time it takes any given user to do some task. After all, the time to hit a key varies from .08 to over .8 seconds, and the other actions GOMS uses aren't any better. GOMS is meant to provide a way to compare different UI methods, and it's expected that the ratios will be roughly correct for any single user, even if the times are radically different from what GOMS predicts. If you only have two windows open, then the GOMS number for changing windows via ALT-TAB drops to the 1.55 I mentioned before. Using the mouse is 1.95 seconds, no matter how many windows are open. ratpoison wins here because you can go directly to any window with two keys, without having to go through a list of them. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 16:13:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4656E37B417; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:13:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fAU0D5029414; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:13:06 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011129141630.A95372@FreeBSD.org> References: <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain> <021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org> <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15366.45514.579030.680673@guru.mired.org> <20011129141630.A95372@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:59:33 +0100 To: Eric Melville , Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: electric cars (was: Feeding the Troll) Cc: Anthony Atkielski , "Andrew C. Hornback" , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:16 PM -0800 on 2001/11/29, Eric Melville wrote: > Actually, they're all over California. I see them both in the Bay Area and > in Los Angeles, especially at schools and shopping malls. In the case of my > school, they come complete with the cars themselves, albeit for graduate > students only, or some other restriction like that. What you get over here in Europe is spaces that are only three meters long, and have an icon of a Smart painted on them. The Smart isn't the only three meter car over here, but is does seem to be far and away the most popular/visible car that size, and it certainly seems to have been the catalyst for the smaller parking spaces like this. Okay, they're not electric, but they do get way better gas mileage than most other cars, and they do help solve the traffic crunch. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 16:35:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9C437B416; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 069BF7598; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0388E1D97; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:35:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:35:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Eric Melville Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <20011129133936.A90325@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Eric Melville wrote: :> We would still be sitting in front of timesharing terminals connected to UNIX :> systems. :> I have no problem with people using FreeBSD as a desktop OS, if they really want :> to fit square pegs into round holes. :Using your very own "strength in numbers" logic, I can claim that your :opinion is not of any value in comparison to someone like Steve Jobs. Jobs, :incidently, thinks that unix makes a great desktop. Billions of flies can't be wrong, so eating shit must be good. Or can we just drop the 'fly diet' argument now? Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 17:22:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC65D37B405 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4522FBD49 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16093 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:22:37 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fAU1N7J12219; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:23:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: electric cars (was: Feeding the Troll) References: <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain> <021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org> <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15366.45514.579030.680673@guru.mired.org> <20011129141630.A95372@FreeBSD.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 29 Nov 2001 17:23:07 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Okay, they're not electric, but they do get way better gas > mileage than most other cars, and they do help solve the traffic crunch. That depends upon what kind of traffic crunch you're more worried about. And most people can afford worse gas mileage for some additional protection against most other cars which are often heavy SUVs and trucks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 17:49:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2650B37B417; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fAU1ns730295; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:49:54 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <02f401c17941$4f3e6990$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Freddie Cash" , , "Matthew D. Fuller" References: Subject: Re: Origin of HAL 9000 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:49:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John writes: > Did the author say where the name did come from? As I recall, they were just an abbreviation, as given in the book, for Heuristically Programmed Algorithmic computer. The HAL 9000 is about the only hard science in the novel and film that is no closer to reality today than it was when the book was written. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 17:52:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402DE37B417; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fAU1puh30503; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:51:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <02f901c17941$9f2fce30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "Giorgos Keramidas" , References: Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:51:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John writes: > Crashing often is called instability, not > insecurity. Very plain and simple. As I've said, a system that crashes is insecure by virtue of those crashes. > I can't remotely login to a router from home > to fix problems for them. Sure you can. Most routers can be configured to allow remote administrative access, although that isn't always a good idea. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 17:55:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AFBB337B41A for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 17:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 61701 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2001 01:55:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 30 Nov 2001 01:55:39 -0000 Message-ID: <3C06E717.7122B45A@outpost.co.nz> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:55:35 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) References: <02f901c17941$9f2fce30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > As I've said, a system that crashes is insecure by virtue of those crashes. Are you puzzled as to why you're ending up in people's killfiles? Please explain to me how a system that crashes is insecure, as most people understand general concepts of server security. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 18: 9:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6590537B416 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fAU28xu32017; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:09:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <030801c17943$fb9f85f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Robert Hough" , References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129115922.GA75539@hades.hell.gr> <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129154849.A47136@acidpit.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:08:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert writes: > I just have a hard time fitting your use of the > word ergonomics into the discussion at hand. Ergonomics is shorthand for "ease of use." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 18:12: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1428F37B416; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAU2C0x05761; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:12:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <031101c17944$667dc4e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Randall Hamilton" , "John Baldwin" Cc: , "Giorgos Keramidas" References: <02d901c17911$f25116d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001101c17918$8020e520$0301a8c0@nitedog> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:12:00 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Randall writes: > most cheap-low end network routers for dsl/cable > have very weak thruput and packet handling... Examples? > not to mention most that have a built in 'hub' > only offer 10mbit.. Are there a lot of DSL lines that exceed 10 Mbps? > a p200-p300 box and a good 100mbit switch would > be far far superior to one of those rinky dink > setups, and would cost little more. DSL routers cost only about $90 or so. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 18:26:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC4537B417; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAU2Q8x05804; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:26:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <032301c17946$6341c1d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Eric Melville" Cc: "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" , "Mike Meyer" , References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <000901c17892$28e1ce90$0301a8c0@nitedog> <01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129133936.A90325@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:26:09 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric writes: > I know a good number of people that would consider > that a step up from today's workplace full of chain > letters, outlook viruses, and collections of porn > and mp3 files. I also tend to agree with them. So do I. For controlled workplace environments, a group of X terminals connected to a large UNIX box would be preferable to a hodgepodge of individually configured and feature-bloated PCs. People who take reservations or examine insurance claims all day do not need PCs to do so, and putting PCs on their desks encourages all manner of time-wasting activities. All of the standard office stuff could be handled by an X terminal on the desktop (and note that I say terminal, not a freestanding PC acting as a terminal--you want something with all the local functionality locked in firmware). However, the trend after the introduction of the PC was to increasingly abandon centralized mainframes and minicomputers and put PCs everywhere. This is an overreaction to the excessive centralization of yore, when everyone had to make do with just a 3270 connected to a distant, slow-moving mainframe. Perhaps the pendulum will one day swing in the opposite direction. I note that Microsoft's very poor attempts to make PCs behave like dumb terminals (at ten times the price) are tacit acknowledgements of this, although of course Microsoft would never condone replacing PCs with mere terminals. > Don't forget that the goal here is to get work done. Yes. > The number of applications which actually benefit > in this regard from being graphical is very limited. Absolutely true. Besides, you can get graphics on an X terminal. > As for the false perception of graphical items > being easier to learn, every version of windows > to date most certainly take time and effort to learn as > well. True, but not nearly as much as that required for UNIX, which is the very archetype of a geek's operating system. > I could have sworn that was also your reason > for X being bad. No. Besides, I don't consider X bad, just not as good for general desktop use as Windows. If I want a windowed GUI, why not pick the OS that was designed from the ground up for that purpose? > Using your very own "strength in numbers" logic, > I can claim that your opinion is not of any value > in comparison to someone like Steve Jobs. Jobs, > incidently, thinks that unix makes a great desktop. Jobs thinks that the Mac is a great computer. But only one user in twenty agrees with him. > This may be a problem with windows, where the > interface is the OS, but such is not the case > for X. It doesn't matter where the interface is. It's the fact of using a GUI that makes the difference. X may be a server that can run _under_ UNIX, but it still is so complex and requires so many privileges that it destabilizes the system. > I'd call the screensaver a waste as well. Why > does your server have a screen? To provide for situations when remote terminals cannot connect, as during boot operations. I got only a small monitor for it, however. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 18:28:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F7737B41A; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAU2SQx05819; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:28:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <032601c17946$b2473fd0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Eric Melville" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain><017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org><01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129135035.B90325@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:28:24 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric writes: > In case you didn't notice, you can develop one > for zero dollars. How? > Sounds more like windows to me. Windows has been preemptively multitasking since Windows 95, as I recall. > I have a mac, and any number of users can ssh > into it and use it at the same time. Does it run the traditional Mac OS, or OS X? > That doesn't work so well with windows. If it > does work at all, it certainly doesn't without expensive > third-party packages. Even when it works with Windows, it has little purpose, since there is almost nothing that you can do useful with Windows with only a text-based interface remotely. What can you do with an ssh session to a Mac? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 18:32: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FFCC37B416 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAU2Vtx05832; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:31:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <032d01c17947$2e923fe0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , References: <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain><017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org><01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org><022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain><021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org><026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15366.45514.579030.680673@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:31:55 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > I had never seen the quote from Clarke before, > or even heard that he had denied it. Thank you > for providing the information along with a > reference. Someone else provided an actual quote and reference, although I've seen multiple quotes from him. > Why don't you let them decide that for themselves, > instead of reaching that conclusion based on > your shallow exposure to the problem. I don't like to see ordinary users suffer. They tend to become permanently hostile to computers after a bad experience. > Exactly. In that case, I'd point them to the > Electric Power Research Institute, which is the > only place I've ever seen that had parking > spaces marked "Electric Vehicles Only." Exactly. > For every task you listed, I found an application. "An application" isn't good enough. It has to be compatible with the applications I named. > In that case, I must conclude that Windows - > in any flavor - is completely unsuitable for > desktop use because there isn't a version of > ratpoison for it. If ratpoison is a sine qua non for your use, that's true. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 18:33:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFDA337B405; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAU2XPx05837; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:33:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <033801c17947$6442e8b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Eric Melville" Cc: "John Baldwin" , , "Giorgos Keramidas" References: <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011129135556.C90325@FreeBSD.org> <15366.46954.596994.653640@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:33:25 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Of course, if there's some other way to move the > focus other than move your hand to the mouse, > point at the window and click on it, those > calculations will be off. Alt-Tab, under Windows. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 18:47:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A1937B405 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fAU2lhD65877; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:47:43 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <036e01c17949$62bd9650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Craig Harding" , References: <02f901c17941$9f2fce30$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C06E717.7122B45A@outpost.co.nz> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:47:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig writes: > Are you puzzled as to why you're ending up > in people's killfiles? People don't write to me to tell me that I'm in their killfiles, so I'm not usually aware of it. > Please explain to me how a system that crashes > is insecure, as most people understand general > concepts of server security. This is the basis for denial-of-service attacks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 22:56:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DEC37B419; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 79455FC2; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:56:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:56:44 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , Eric Melville , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org, Giorgos Keramidas Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011130005644.C18351@over-yonder.net> References: <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011129135556.C90325@FreeBSD.org> <15366.46954.596994.653640@guru.mired.org> <033801c17947$6442e8b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <033801c17947$6442e8b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 03:33:25AM +0100 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 03:33:25AM +0100 I heard the voice of Anthony Atkielski, and lo! it spake thus: > Mike writes: > > > Of course, if there's some other way to move the > > focus other than move your hand to the mouse, > > point at the window and click on it, those > > calculations will be off. > > Alt-Tab, under Windows. Yes, that should be MASSIVELY efficient for my current 49 xterms, 23 Netscape windows, 6 Mozilla windows, 1 Opera window, licq, XMMS, Realplayer, and 6 virtual desktops. Oh, and it'll be nice and easy to select among them on a 15 pixel icon bar on the bottom of my screen, too. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 23:13:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B20D37B419 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:13:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix (dial-41.ocis.net [209.52.173.73]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07912; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:12:59 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: "Anthony Atkielski" Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:12:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3C06C0E7.25821.B47933@localhost> In-reply-to: <030801c17943$fb9f85f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Robert writes: > > I just have a hard time fitting your use of the > > word ergonomics into the discussion at hand. > Ergonomics is shorthand for "ease of use." Have a gander at: http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=ergonomics Note the complete, and utter, lack of "ease of use" on that page. Ergonomics has to do with the study of equipment design to minimise operator fatigue and injury. Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 29 23:16:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C75037B405 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix (dial-41.ocis.net [209.52.173.73]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08580; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:16:20 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: "Anthony Atkielski" Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:15:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3C06C1AF.16219.B78634@localhost> In-reply-to: <031101c17944$667dc4e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Randall writes: > > most cheap-low end network routers for dsl/cable > > have very weak thruput and packet handling... > Examples? > > not to mention most that have a built in 'hub' > > only offer 10mbit.. > Are there a lot of DSL lines that exceed 10 Mbps? The outside DSL line is not the only communications medium in use here. Limiting your internal LAN to a 10 mbit *hub* is pointless nowadays unless you are only worried about the occasional file transfer between computers. Even if you *never* need more than 10 mbit of bandwidth internally, why limit yourself to a broadcast medium when switched media is only slightly more? Also, having your main network gateway and all internal communication pass through the same point is not good security policy. Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 1:42:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE8537B416 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAU9gMx07152; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:42:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <03ce01c17983$505810f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: Cc: References: <3C06C0E7.25821.B47933@localhost> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:42:22 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie writes: > Have a gander at: > http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=ergonomics > > Note the complete, and utter, lack of "ease of use" > on that page. Instead, there is a long definition saying the same thing. > Ergonomics has to do with the study of equipment > design to minimise operator fatigue and injury. Note the complete, and utter, lack of "injury" on the page that you yourself have cited above. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 2: 0: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF77637B405 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAU9xux07204; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:59:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <03e101c17985$c4b82be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: Cc: References: <3C06C1AF.16219.B78634@localhost> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:59:57 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie writes: > The outside DSL line is not the only communications > medium in use here. You said "routers for DSL/cable." I don't know of any DSL or cable connections that exceed 10 Mbps. > Limiting your internal LAN to a 10 mbit *hub* is > pointless nowadays unless you are only worried about > the occasional file transfer between computers. Probably. But these routers maintain hub transfers at 100 Mbps, even when you plug other machines directly into the on-board hub of the router. And even if you find a router that does not do this, you can just plug it into a cheap switch that does. In any case, I haven't been very successful at pushing my LAN to 100 Mbps (12.5 MB/s), even with direct connections between machines. The best I've been able to do is perhaps 20 Mbps, so something else is in the way. > Also, having your main network gateway and all > internal communication pass through the same > point is not good security policy. Why not? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 2:28:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hi.net (tc72-74.dialup.seed.net.tw [210.244.72.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B48837B405; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:28:18 -0800 (PST) From: 2HFDGH5v@pavo.seed.net.tw To: m1JeKXn4km@ksts.seed.net.tw Subject: znlqHEGqoW5uSLvRoaCX7fXMkxTHd Tpx4Ui8SZmB4ZwfXGPm0TWTc9Bx MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_oVH2KBBayBM95SmWJ8gg26" X-Mailer: 4iNlhQfUhnckJ X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Message-Id: <20011130102818.7B48837B405@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:28:18 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_oVH2KBBayBM95SmWJ8gg26 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_oVH2KBBayBM95SmWJ8gg26AA" ------=_NextPart_oVH2KBBayBM95SmWJ8gg26AA Content-Type: text/html; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGZvbnQgc2l6ZT02Pjxocj48YSBocmVmPWh0dHA6Ly8yMTAuNjQuMTg0LjE5NC+kSrd8u6Gp+sDJ LmV4ZT6leMZXtKupZK3RvNazoaRKt3y7oan6wMk8L2E+PGhyPg0KPGEgaHJlZj1odHRwOi8vMjEw LjY0LjE4NC4yMDMvs8y3c7jJqaul2L/9LmV4ZT7CxaTRuMmpq6R1p0Crx7PMt3Ol+rrQpdi//Twv YT48aHI+ ------=_NextPart_oVH2KBBayBM95SmWJ8gg26AA-- ------=_NextPart_oVH2KBBayBM95SmWJ8gg26-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 2:34:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hi.net (tc72-74.dialup.seed.net.tw [210.244.72.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC49A37B41B; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:34:22 -0800 (PST) From: yzDF8d2E6Oc@seed.net.tw To: O7Koe7@sky.seed.net.tw Subject: 19HdN6S2iuoyiQ1VLqUML 2PkRsdRte5vTUx44VxafhNis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_A2HnvBo3IN5uWsh" X-Mailer: Hyr65viL7m2o5cpvQ1FUWk X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Message-Id: <20011130103423.EC49A37B41B@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:34:23 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_A2HnvBo3IN5uWsh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_A2HnvBo3IN5uWshAA" ------=_NextPart_A2HnvBo3IN5uWshAA Content-Type: text/html; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGZvbnQgc2l6ZT02Pg0KPGhyPjxhIGhyZWY9aHR0cDovLzIxMC42NC4xODQuMTk0L6RKt3y7oan6 wMkuZXhlPqV4xle0q6lkrdG81rOhpEq3fLuhqfrAyQ0KPC9hPjxocj48YSBocmVmPWh0dHA6Ly8y MTAuNjQuMTg0LjIwMy+zzLdzuMmpq6XYv/0uZXhlPsLFpNG4yamrpHWnQKvHs8y3c6X6utCl2L/9 DQo8L2E+PGhyPg== ------=_NextPart_A2HnvBo3IN5uWshAA-- ------=_NextPart_A2HnvBo3IN5uWsh-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 6: 7:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7936437B417 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 42019 invoked by uid 100); 30 Nov 2001 14:07:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:07:35 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , "Mike Meyer" , , "Eric Melville" , "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <03ea01c17986$b9dd6f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <000901c17892$28e1ce90$0301a8c0@nitedog> <01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129133936.A90325@FreeBSD.org> <032301c17946$6341c1d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain> <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain> <021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org> <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15366.45514.579030.680673@guru.mired.org> <032d01c17947$2e923fe0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001701c17985$89206f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <03ea01c17986$b9dd6f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Ted writes: > > It does the job that Microsoft thinks you want > > done nicely. > Microsoft is right, for the most part. My observation of windows users - both at home and in the office - indicate that "most" is about 60%. > > Getting from where Microsoft wants them to > > be to where the user wants Microsoft to be > > is very hard. > The success of Microsoft is evidence of the contrary. No, it isn't. You overlooked what happens in reality, which is that the users go where Microsoft wants them to be, and give up on the being where they want to be. That's easy but painful. Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Why don't you let them decide that for themselves, > > instead of reaching that conclusion based on > > your shallow exposure to the problem. > I don't like to see ordinary users suffer. They tend to become permanently > hostile to computers after a bad experience. But that users *is* suffering - that's why they're complaining about Windows. That you believe it will be worse with Linux is another good reason for telling them you won't be able to help them with it. That way, if they do suffer, you won't have to see it. As for the second part, most of the Windows users I know are hostile to computers. Those that have had experience with things other than Windows - the Mac, for instance - tend to be hostile to Windows. > > For every task you listed, I found an application. > "An application" isn't good enough. It has to be compatible with the > applications I named. In other words, you've placed yourself in a position where you can't escape from a proprietary solution. Having been there before, you have both my sympathy and my pity. I'd also advise you to change that situation as quickly as you can, because the longer you stay in it, the more painful it will be when you are finally forced to change for some reason. > > In that case, I must conclude that Windows - > > in any flavor - is completely unsuitable for > > desktop use because there isn't a version of > > ratpoison for it. > If ratpoison is a sine qua non for your use, that's true. Since experience has taught me not to get caught in the position you're in, *nothing* is sine qua non for my use. It's just (as discussed elsewhere) that ratpoison is about 50% more efficient than most other window managers, including Windows. I'm currently investigating PLWM, which should raise that figure to 75%. If there were a window manager that could compete with those figures available for Windows, I'd love to hear about it. Anthony Atkielski types: > Eric writes: > > As for the false perception of graphical items > > being easier to learn, every version of windows > > to date most certainly take time and effort to learn as > > well. > True, but not nearly as much as that required for UNIX, which is the very > archetype of a geek's operating system. That's why some of the Linux distributions are turning themselves into a clone of Windows - because they want to lower the learning curve as much as possible. > > I could have sworn that was also your reason > > for X being bad. > No. Besides, I don't consider X bad, just not as good for general desktop use > as Windows. If I want a windowed GUI, why not pick the OS that was designed > from the ground up for that purpose? Windows certainly isn't that. It's basis is DOS, which was a single-tasking program loader. Every version since has been saddled with backwards compatability to that design, which is one of the reasons for those platforms being unstable. I've been told by an NT developer that that was the reason that Windows NT was so unstable that even Bill Gates admitted it. As far as I can tell, there have only been two OS's that have made it to market designed from the ground up as a windowed system - the Mac and BeOS. The Amiga was supposed to get that, but the people contracted to provide the exec backed out at the last minute, so Tripos was bolted on in in it's place. The seams definitely showed. The previously mentioned Apple and Sun products that never made it to market also fit your description, but they aren't available. > It doesn't matter where the interface is. It's the fact of using a GUI that > makes the difference. X may be a server that can run _under_ UNIX, but it still > is so complex and requires so many privileges that it destabilizes the system. Gnome and KDE may be that way, but I've avoided them like the plague. But for a graphic server and a simple wm, that's just not true. Nuts, even with a relatively complex wm like gwm, it's not true, because the window manager doesn't need any extra privileges. The only time I've had problems with a GUI on X is when I was running a window manager that was under active development. Basically, using Windows - either 3.1, 95 or 98 - for a single day results in more problems from the GUI than I've had with 15 years using four different graphics servers and seven different window managers of release quality on Unix. > > I'd call the screensaver a waste as well. Why > > does your server have a screen? > To provide for situations when remote terminals cannot connect, as during boot > operations. I got only a small monitor for it, however. So install a terminal server, and set them up with serial consoles. Then run X and a simple windowm manager - ratpoison would be nearly ideal for this - that has the console for each displayed in a window. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 6: 7:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8317837B41B for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 42019 invoked by uid 100); 30 Nov 2001 14:07:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:07:35 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , "Mike Meyer" , , "Eric Melville" , "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <03ea01c17986$b9dd6f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <000901c17892$28e1ce90$0301a8c0@nitedog> <01bc01c17892$f2dea380$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129133936.A90325@FreeBSD.org> <032301c17946$6341c1d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <004801c17872$98e47b40$6600000a@ach.domain> <017f01c1788c$8cb71d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.52562.394957.602907@guru.mired.org> <01fe01c178a1$001d1be0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.58639.39658.89837@guru.mired.org> <022901c178ab$8b12cb50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001401c1789c$f4ea1f60$6600000a@ach.domain> <021f01c178a9$43b2c500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15365.63510.713899.607362@guru.mired.org> <026501c178c1$62f8fa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15366.45514.579030.680673@guru.mired.org> <032d01c17947$2e923fe0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001701c17985$89206f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <03ea01c17986$b9dd6f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Ted writes: > > It does the job that Microsoft thinks you want > > done nicely. > Microsoft is right, for the most part. My observation of windows users - both at home and in the office - indicate that "most" is about 60%. > > Getting from where Microsoft wants them to > > be to where the user wants Microsoft to be > > is very hard. > The success of Microsoft is evidence of the contrary. No, it isn't. You overlooked what happens in reality, which is that the users go where Microsoft wants them to be, and give up on the being where they want to be. That's easy but painful. Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Why don't you let them decide that for themselves, > > instead of reaching that conclusion based on > > your shallow exposure to the problem. > I don't like to see ordinary users suffer. They tend to become permanently > hostile to computers after a bad experience. But that users *is* suffering - that's why they're complaining about Windows. That you believe it will be worse with Linux is another good reason for telling them you won't be able to help them with it. That way, if they do suffer, you won't have to see it. As for the second part, most of the Windows users I know are hostile to computers. Those that have had experience with things other than Windows - the Mac, for instance - tend to be hostile to Windows. > > For every task you listed, I found an application. > "An application" isn't good enough. It has to be compatible with the > applications I named. In other words, you've placed yourself in a position where you can't escape from a proprietary solution. Having been there before, you have both my sympathy and my pity. I'd also advise you to change that situation as quickly as you can, because the longer you stay in it, the more painful it will be when you are finally forced to change for some reason. > > In that case, I must conclude that Windows - > > in any flavor - is completely unsuitable for > > desktop use because there isn't a version of > > ratpoison for it. > If ratpoison is a sine qua non for your use, that's true. Since experience has taught me not to get caught in the position you're in, *nothing* is sine qua non for my use. It's just (as discussed elsewhere) that ratpoison is about 50% more efficient than most other window managers, including Windows. I'm currently investigating PLWM, which should raise that figure to 75%. If there were a window manager that could compete with those figures available for Windows, I'd love to hear about it. Anthony Atkielski types: > Eric writes: > > As for the false perception of graphical items > > being easier to learn, every version of windows > > to date most certainly take time and effort to learn as > > well. > True, but not nearly as much as that required for UNIX, which is the very > archetype of a geek's operating system. That's why some of the Linux distributions are turning themselves into a clone of Windows - because they want to lower the learning curve as much as possible. > > I could have sworn that was also your reason > > for X being bad. > No. Besides, I don't consider X bad, just not as good for general desktop use > as Windows. If I want a windowed GUI, why not pick the OS that was designed > from the ground up for that purpose? Windows certainly isn't that. It's basis is DOS, which was a single-tasking program loader. Every version since has been saddled with backwards compatability to that design, which is one of the reasons for those platforms being unstable. I've been told by an NT developer that that was the reason that Windows NT was so unstable that even Bill Gates admitted it. As far as I can tell, there have only been two OS's that have made it to market designed from the ground up as a windowed system - the Mac and BeOS. The Amiga was supposed to get that, but the people contracted to provide the exec backed out at the last minute, so Tripos was bolted on in in it's place. The seams definitely showed. The previously mentioned Apple and Sun products that never made it to market also fit your description, but they aren't available. > It doesn't matter where the interface is. It's the fact of using a GUI that > makes the difference. X may be a server that can run _under_ UNIX, but it still > is so complex and requires so many privileges that it destabilizes the system. Gnome and KDE may be that way, but I've avoided them like the plague. But for a graphic server and a simple wm, that's just not true. Nuts, even with a relatively complex wm like gwm, it's not true, because the window manager doesn't need any extra privileges. The only time I've had problems with a GUI on X is when I was running a window manager that was under active development. Basically, using Windows - either 3.1, 95 or 98 - for a single day results in more problems from the GUI than I've had with 15 years using four different graphics servers and seven different window managers of release quality on Unix. > > I'd call the screensaver a waste as well. Why > > does your server have a screen? > To provide for situations when remote terminals cannot connect, as during boot > operations. I got only a small monitor for it, however. So install a terminal server, and set them up with serial consoles. Then run X and a simple windowm manager - ratpoison would be nearly ideal for this - that has the console for each displayed in a window. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 6:52:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B49A237B41C for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 42859 invoked by uid 100); 30 Nov 2001 14:52:46 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:52:46 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. In-Reply-To: <03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org> <036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org> <03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > Keep in mind that the early versions of Windows had no preemptive multitasking; > an application held control of the processor until it decided to voluntarily > relinquish it with a call to the OS. There wasn't much reason for filtering, > since there was no significant parallelism of execution, anyway. Windows 9x > started to do a bit of preemption, but it still stalls when applications are > hogging the system. Windows NT is immune to this, but instead it tends to > thrash when there are many applications in the system, because of (IMO) the need > to fill and service message queues for all open applications with windows. I'm fully aware of the origins of windows, and even pointed out why those origins took it out of the category of "systems designed from scratch for windowing UIs". That NT has to provide the same functionality to be compatible with W9x is a sad thing. > > So far, you haven't demonstrated that the > > Windows way is any more flexible or functional > > than the X way. > The 100,000 applications provide the flexibility and functionality. That may make the desktop more flexible and functional, but not the underlying windowing system which we were discussing. Unless you can demonstrate an application which can't be done on X, the sheer number don't matter. > > I don't know that I would call it a covert > > channel. > You can learn or transmit information about other processes about which you > should know nothing by determining or influencing their states. This provides a > low-bandwidth covert channel, and is thus a (small) security risk. Unfortunately, that channel *has* to exist because the window manager couldn't function without it. As I stated before, you eliminate that small risk by not allowing untrusted clients to connect to the server. Just out of curiosity, if I'm using one of the remote access methods for NT, is there anything that prevents me from running a program that opens a window on the screen and thus get access to the same information? > > As far as I can tell from your description, > > the only difference between Windows and X is > > that in Windows passes every event to every > > client to let the client choose, resulting in > > a boatload of context switches ... > Yes. > > > ... whereas in X the clients have specified > > which events they want, and X does the determination > > internally, so you don't get context switches > > for clients that don't care about an event, which is > > a major savings as most clients don't care > > about events in other windows. > Yes. In other words, the Windows approach is no more flexible or functional than the X approach, just a lot more expensive. That that's because of it's roots as a single-tasking program loader actually gives some credibility to your argument that Unix is bad on the desktop because of it's roots as a multiuser server. But I think I already agreed that having capabilities you don't use is an expense you could avoid. Just not nearly as bad as having to provide backwards compatability for systems that didn't have capabilities that you need. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 6:57:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5965D37B41C; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAUEuvx07940; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:56:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , "Mike Meyer" , , "Eric Melville" , "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:56:57 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > My observation of windows users - both at home > and in the office - indicate that "most" is about 60%. Even if that is true, it's still a lot higher than for most systems. > No, it isn't. You overlooked what happens in > reality, which is that the users go where > Microsoft wants them to be, and give up on the > being where they want to be. Urban legends die hard. It's comforting to think that Microsoft succeeded by cheating somehow, instead of just by being smarter than the rest of us, but there just isn't any solid evidence of that. It's a question of management decisions, and Microsoft's decisions have been right more often than not, whereas the decisions of competiting companies have too often been wrong. Let's not forget that the world was Apple's oyster once, and they completely blew that out the window. Indeed, I've always been amazed by how long Apple has survived, given how feverishly and frequently it shoots itself in the foot. The same can be said of other companies. > But that users *is* suffering - that's why they're > complaining about Windows. Most people are _not_ complaining about Windows. And of those who are, most have never tried anything else, and they don't realize how bad things could be. > As for the second part, most of the Windows users > I know are hostile to computers. Most of the Windows users I know don't really care either way. The computer is just an appliance to them, and evokes no particular emotions in them. Mac users, in contrast, have a pathological hatred for Microsoft and Windows, no doubt out of jealousy. Fans of some other operating systems, especially Linux (and UNIX in general to a lesser extent), manifest comparable pathologies. > Those that have had experience with things other > than Windows - the Mac, for instance - tend to > be hostile to Windows. Not necessarily. I know people who were quite pleased to move from the Mac to Windows. It was nice to not have to depend on one company for both (overpriced) hardware and (overpriced) software, and one user told me that she was pleased to finally be able to buy the software she wanted (most of what interested her wasn't available on the Mac). > In other words, you've placed yourself in a > position where you can't escape from a proprietary > solution. Proprietary or not, you're stuck with standards. Even open-source environments still lock you down in practice. Running FreeBSD may not help you if you need a driver that only is available for Linux. > I'd also advise you to change that situation as > quickly as you can, because the longer you stay > in it, the more painful it will be when you are > finally forced to change for some reason. Believe it or not, it really isn't that important to me. Computers are tools, most of the time. > Since experience has taught me not to get caught > in the position you're in, *nothing* is sine qua > non for my use. Then I assume you don't actually use your computer for anything essential? > That's why some of the Linux distributions are > turning themselves into a clone of Windows - because > they want to lower the learning curve as much as > possible. And that's another reason why I'm glad that I never bothered with Linux. The problem is, though, that some people are going to try Linux after hearing the hype, find out it's nothing like they expected, and then go running back to Windows even more devoted to the platform than before. Since most of them know nothing of UNIX generally, their first (bad) experience with that category of OS will likely also be their last. If someone suggests FreeBSD to them afterwards, they'll just say "no, thanks, I've already been through that with Linux." > Windows certainly isn't that. It's basis is DOS, > which was a single-tasking program loader. No. Windows NT has no basis in DOS at all. Most of the DOS influence disappeared with the demise of Windows 3.x. Modern Windows resembles DOS about as much as UNIX resembles Multics--not even that much, in fact. > Every version since has been saddled with backwards > compatability to that design ... No. The NT architecture sacrificed it, in favor of better stability and security. If XP is built on NT code, as I've heard, it will inherit this stability and security as well (if Microsoft hasn't hacked away at it too much). > I've been told by an NT developer that that was the > reason that Windows NT was so unstable that even > Bill Gates admitted it. Your NT-developer friend was wrong. NT had no DOS roots to speak of, and many DOS programs would never run on NT at all. That's one reason why many organizations were slow to adopt it--they wanted compatibility more than they wanted stability and security. That's probably also why NT was hobbled slightly in later releases to make it more DOS and Windows 3.x-like. > As far as I can tell, there have only been two OS's > that have made it to market designed from the ground > up as a windowed system - the Mac and BeOS. There have been several GUI-based operating systems, but the Mac and Windows NT are the only ones that have enjoyed real success. > But for a graphic server and a simple wm, that's just not > true. Is there a server that I can run at secure_level=3 on FreeBSD? > Nuts, even with a relatively complex wm like gwm, > it's not true, because the window manager doesn't > need any extra privileges. See above. > So install a terminal server, and set them up > with serial consoles. Then run X and a simple > windowm manager - ratpoison would be nearly ideal > for this - that has the console for each displayed > in a window. I don't understand ... what would this buy me? The console and ssh sessions are fine. I use FTP to move files. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 7: 7:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A31E37B41A for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAUF7bx07976; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:07:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org><036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org><03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:07:37 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > That NT has to provide the same functionality > to be compatible with W9x is a sad thing. I suspect that, even if NT provided the option of filtering messages (and actually it does, to a limited extent, as do all Win32 environments), programmers would just whine about it. Most Windows programmers have never been beyond a desktop, and have no concept of multiprogramming, multiuser systems in which they must actually share resources with other software and respect security mandates. Any restriction on what they can do would upset them. > That may make the desktop more flexible and > functional, but not the underlying windowing system > which we were discussing. Maybe, but you need both to get anything done. > Unless you can demonstrate an application which > can't be done on X, the sheer number don't matter. The sheer number matters a lot, when you are looking for something on the shelves of a computer store. A _theoretical_ ability to do the same thing on X is worthless to the average user; it's meaningful only if it comes on a CD in a box. > Unfortunately, that channel *has* to exist > because the window manager couldn't function > without it. Yes. Another problem with windowed GUIs. > Just out of curiosity, if I'm using one of > the remote access methods for NT, is there > anything that prevents me from running a > program that opens a window on the screen > and thus get access to the same information? You'll have to be more specific. As a general rule, NT and Windows overall make little provision for remote graphic interfaces to the machine, or for interfaces of any kind, except for sharing of files and printers and other non-interactive services. One of the horrors of NT administration is trying to do _anything_ from a distance; all administrative tools are graphics-based, so you have to be running a Windows machine to use them, and the protocols used to connect them to a server are so complex and bandwidth hungry that very often you can't do anything at all. In many cases I've resorted to pcAnywhere (which just exports entire screens from the host machine) to do things, but it is dog-slow compared to a simple command-line interface. No matter what Microsoft would like to think, NT and its relatives are not timesharing multiuser systems in any practical sense, because of their excessive emphasis on GUI interfaces (and nothing else). Nobody suffers from this more than NT administrators. In some cases, I recall having to send an engineer to a distant customer site in person in order to accomplish anything, since no attempt to communicate with his servers remotely could be made to work. > In other words, the Windows approach is no more > flexible or functional than the X approach, just > a lot more expensive. You get what you pay for. If you want access to 100,000 applications, you have to pay something for that. However, traditionally Microsoft has only charged $30-$40 per copy of Windows on preinstalled machines. Compare that to $1000 or so in some cases for the microprocessor (easily half the cost of the machine, and often with at least 50% margin for Andy). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 7:54:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC0FF37B41B for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 07:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 44086 invoked by uid 100); 30 Nov 2001 15:54:15 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:54:15 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Andrew C. Hornback" , , "Eric Melville" , "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > My observation of windows users - both at home > > and in the office - indicate that "most" is about 60%. > Even if that is true, it's still a lot higher than for most systems. For most users, yes. Not for all users. > > No, it isn't. You overlooked what happens in > > reality, which is that the users go where > > Microsoft wants them to be, and give up on the > > being where they want to be. > Urban legends die hard. It's comforting to think that Microsoft succeeded by > cheating somehow, instead of just by being smarter than the rest of us, but > there just isn't any solid evidence of that. It's a question of management > decisions, and Microsoft's decisions have been right more often than not, > whereas the decisions of competiting companies have too often been wrong. Actually, I agree with everything you just said. That doesn't contradict my statement, it supplements it. Microsot succeeded in providing something that was "good enough" - i.e., 60% - for most users, and not wasting resources trying to be more than that for anything larger than the entire market. That's smart. It makes for lousy tech, but it's smart management. > Let's not forget that the world was Apple's oyster once, and they completely > blew that out the window. Indeed, I've always been amazed by how long Apple has > survived, given how feverishly and frequently it shoots itself in the foot. The > same can be said of other companies. I don't believe the world was ever Apple's oyster, and I helped found a company that sold Apple ]['s (actually, we sold the black Apples for licensing reasons) to businesses. The only period when Apple had a clear superiority was when VisiCalc was available for it, and there were no spreadsheets on other machines. That lasted a few months at most. Since that was also during the period before anyone had been fired for buying IBM, there weren't a lot of sales of any of them. Before the IBM PC appeared, apple may have been the most popular home pc, but they had lots of competition. After the RS Model I appeared, the competition was in a lot more storefronts. They never dominated the market the way IBM dominates it now. Just compare a Byte from that era to a current one. As soon as the first PC from a company that had a solid reputation - IBM - showed up, Apple was clearly out of the running. For Windowing environments, the Mac never caught up with DOS, so that clearly wasn't it. As soon as MS had a windowing environment that was good enough - 3.0 - Apple lost the the windowing environment, though the Mac can still be found in desktop publishing and graphics markets that haven't converted yet. > > But that users *is* suffering - that's why they're > > complaining about Windows. > Most people are _not_ complaining about Windows. And of those who are, most > have never tried anything else, and they don't realize how bad things could be. Most people I know who use Windows complain about the computer. The only difference between those who have exposure to other things is that that group complains about Windows, whereas the those who haven't complain about the computer. > > As for the second part, most of the Windows users > > I know are hostile to computers. > Most of the Windows users I know don't really care either way. The computer is > just an appliance to them, and evokes no particular emotions in them. I chose hostile because you did. They react to them like they do to most things that malfunction regularly. They curse at them when they don't work properly, and complain about how often they malfunction when the topic comes up. > > Those that have had experience with things other > > than Windows - the Mac, for instance - tend to > > be hostile to Windows. > Not necessarily. I know people who were quite pleased to move from the Mac to > Windows. It was nice to not have to depend on one company for both (overpriced) > hardware and (overpriced) software, and one user told me that she was pleased to > finally be able to buy the software she wanted (most of what interested her > wasn't available on the Mac). That doesn't surprise me at all. I was quite pleased to get away from overpriced hardware and software in a proprietary environment to one that wasn't proprietary. I also avoided the (overpriced) software from MS. I was doing Unix support at a Mac shop when they had everyone but the actual desktop publishing group move to Windows. Many complained because the systems were less stable, some were pleased because they could now interoperate with their home environment. They all went where microsoft wanted them to go. > > In other words, you've placed yourself in a > > position where you can't escape from a proprietary > > solution. > Proprietary or not, you're stuck with standards. Even open-source environments > still lock you down in practice. Proprietary standards lock you down. Open standards don't. You can find both sets of standards in both environments. So yes, you can be locked down in an open-source environment. You can also *not* be locked down in a proprietary environment. You just have to be aware of the possibility and work to avoid it. > Running FreeBSD may not help you if you need a driver that only is > available for Linux. Or Windows. That's one of the major disadvantages of not using Windows: I don't get a FreeBSD driver for the hardware when I buy it. On the other hand, the ability to run Linux binaries meant I'd have a good shot at getting commercial Unix software running on FreeBSD. That has mostly worked out well, as I managed to get the Linux FrameMaker beta to work on FreeBSD. Unfortunately, Adobe decided not to release it as a product, even though they are still supporting and upgrading it for RISC workstations. > > I'd also advise you to change that situation as > > quickly as you can, because the longer you stay > > in it, the more painful it will be when you are > > finally forced to change for some reason. > Believe it or not, it really isn't that important to me. Computers are tools, > most of the time. I'm willing to accept that avoiding pain in the future is of no importance to you. It's worth some effort to me. > > Since experience has taught me not to get caught > > in the position you're in, *nothing* is sine qua > > non for my use. > Then I assume you don't actually use your computer for anything essential? I run my consulting business on my computer. If it isn't working properly, I can't work - which means I don't get paid. However, there is no single compenent that can't be replaced by another application with similar functionality should the need arise. I can even replace FreeBSD with Linux and move everything I use over to that. The rpm system will make getting all the open source tools I need installed a bit painfull, but it can be done. This is the software equivalent of the hardware practice of making sure you have a second source available for every critical part. > > That's why some of the Linux distributions are > > turning themselves into a clone of Windows - because > > they want to lower the learning curve as much as > > possible. > > The problem is, though, that some people are going to try Linux after hearing > the hype, find out it's nothing like they expected, and then go running back to > Windows even more devoted to the platform than before. Yup. But some people will find it's just what they want. > Since most of them know nothing of UNIX generally, their first (bad) > experience with that category of OS will likely also be their last. > If someone suggests FreeBSD to them afterwards, they'll just say > "no, thanks, I've already been through that with Linux." And they'll be right. If Linux - which tries to be like Windows - was more Unix than they needed, FreeBSD is absolutely wrong for them. > > Windows certainly isn't that. It's basis is DOS, > > which was a single-tasking program loader. > No. Windows NT has no basis in DOS at all. Most of the DOS influence > disappeared with the demise of Windows 3.x. Modern Windows resembles DOS about > as much as UNIX resembles Multics--not even that much, in fact. Except, as we discussed in the other thread, that even Windows NT still suffers from design decisions made during the Windows 3.1 era that catered to the single-tasking nature of DOS. Windows NT may have been designed from scratch to be a windowing environment, but it had to be compatable with a system for which that wasn't true. > > Every version since has been saddled with backwards > > compatability to that design ... > No. The NT architecture sacrificed it, in favor of better stability and > security. If XP is built on NT code, as I've heard, it will inherit this > stability and security as well (if Microsoft hasn't hacked away at it too much). Except that in the other thread, you already pointed out that NT has an event model that ultimately derives from the DOS-based Windows 3.1 environment. > > I've been told by an NT developer that that was the > > reason that Windows NT was so unstable that even > > Bill Gates admitted it. > Your NT-developer friend was wrong. NT had no DOS roots to speak of, and many > DOS programs would never run on NT at all. That's one reason why many > organizations were slow to adopt it--they wanted compatibility more than they > wanted stability and security. That's probably also why NT was hobbled slightly > in later releases to make it more DOS and Windows 3.x-like. You just agreed with my NT developer friend. He said that when they added 9x compatability, they made NT less stable. What he was really upset about was he that the level of compatability they got didn't require compromising stability; they could have gotten the same level and kept stability where it was. > > But for a graphic server and a simple wm, that's just not > > true. > Is there a server that I can run at secure_level=3 on FreeBSD? For FreeBSD, I don't know. DEC had a kit available for Ultrix to put it at one of the military security levels a couple of steps above the one Unix is normally provided at, and you could run X on that. This makes me suspect that the answer is yes, but I'd have to do some investigation to verify it. If you're willing to pay for my time to do so, I will. If you'd like pointers at what I'd check on doing so, I'll provide those gratis. > > Nuts, even with a relatively complex wm like gwm, > > it's not true, because the window manager doesn't > > need any extra privileges. > See above. Quit confusing the window manager and the server. The window manager doesn't require any extra priveleges. > > So install a terminal server, and set them up > > with serial consoles. Then run X and a simple > > windowm manager - ratpoison would be nearly ideal > > for this - that has the console for each displayed > > in a window. > I don't understand ... what would this buy me? The console and ssh sessions are > fine. I use FTP to move files. That would mean you don't have to keep consoles around for all those systems. If you're not interested in keeping the history of what goes on on the console around, you don't need X on the terminal server. In either case, you can connect to the terminal server remotely and talk to the console of the other servers. In fact, you can set the terminal server up with a serial console, and connect it back to one of the other servers so you can access the console of any of the systems remotely. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 8: 6:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CAFA37B644 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:06:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 44265 invoked by uid 100); 30 Nov 2001 16:06:15 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15367.44663.511557.67023@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:06:15 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. In-Reply-To: <040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org> <036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org> <03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org> <040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > That NT has to provide the same functionality > > to be compatible with W9x is a sad thing. > I suspect that, even if NT provided the option of filtering messages (and > actually it does, to a limited extent, as do all Win32 environments), > programmers would just whine about it. Most Windows programmers have never been > beyond a desktop, and have no concept of multiprogramming, multiuser systems in > which they must actually share resources with other software and respect > security mandates. Any restriction on what they can do would upset them. I've noticed that. One of the things that makes Windows an unpleasant desktop for me is that many of the applications act like they are the only thing running, which make using the multitasking ability of the system much more painfull than it is on Unix. > > That may make the desktop more flexible and > > functional, but not the underlying windowing system > > which we were discussing. > Maybe, but you need both to get anything done. True. Unix has enough applications to be flexible enough to get the job done. > > Unless you can demonstrate an application which > > can't be done on X, the sheer number don't matter. > The sheer number matters a lot, when you are looking for something on the > shelves of a computer store. A _theoretical_ ability to do the same thing on X > is worthless to the average user; it's meaningful only if it comes on a CD in a > box. That's true for only one of the users I know. For the rest, it only matters if they can download a copy from the net, or get one from a friend. > > Just out of curiosity, if I'm using one of > > the remote access methods for NT, is there > > anything that prevents me from running a > > program that opens a window on the screen > > and thus get access to the same information? > > You'll have to be more specific. As a general rule, NT and Windows overall make > little provision for remote graphic interfaces to the machine, or for interfaces > of any kind, except for sharing of files and printers and other non-interactive > services. One of the horrors of NT administration is trying to do _anything_ > from a distance; all administrative tools are graphics-based, so you have to be > running a Windows machine to use them, and the protocols used to connect them to > a server are so complex and bandwidth hungry that very often you can't do > anything at all. In many cases I've resorted to pcAnywhere (which just exports > entire screens from the host machine) to do things, but it is dog-slow compared > to a simple command-line interface. First, you might try VNC instead of pcAnywhere. VNC seemed faster than pcAnywhere in the cases I've tried it. You can also access it from X, or any java-capable web browser. They claim that on PC's you can use it with the SVGA library, but I've not been able to get that to work. Basically, I'm not interested in opening a window and *doing* anything with it. I'm interested in being able to get the flow of events, and possibly manipulating other windows on the screen. > In some cases, I recall having to send an engineer to a distant customer site in > person in order to accomplish anything, since no attempt to communicate with his > servers remotely could be made to work. That's one of the things one pays for RISC hardware for. If you don't plug in a screen, it will assume the PROM access is via a serial console. This means you can do everything that doesn't require actually touching the CPU box remotely. > > In other words, the Windows approach is no more > > flexible or functional than the X approach, just > > a lot more expensive. > You get what you pay for. If you want access to 100,000 applications, you have > to pay something for that. Can't argue with that. Since even heavy users seldom use more than a few hundred applications, having access to a few thousand is usually sufficient, and doesn't require the cpu resources of windows. Of course, to make sure that your critical applications run on the platform you're chosing, you should select those first, then select the OS they run on best, *then* chose the hardware platform that will best support that OS. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 13:30:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F43B37B417 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1334CBD13; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23234; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:30:13 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fAULUb794969; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:30:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: "Anthony Atkielski" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) References: <3C06C0E7.25821.B47933@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 30 Nov 2001 13:30:35 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C06C0E7.25821.B47933@localhost> Message-ID: <14n114q744.114@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ergonomics is shorthand for "ease of use." > > Have a gander at: > http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=ergonomics > > Note the complete, and utter, lack of "ease of use" on that page. > Ergonomics has to do with the study of equipment design to minimise > operator fatigue and injury. Anthony's got it close enough for me. I don't remember whether he used it perfectly, but everyone knows that ergonomics is related to ease of use, no matter what any dictionary might say. (And that page is compatible with "ease of use", even if it doesn't use those words.) The stem "ergon" comes from Greek "ergon" which means "work". The suffix "nomic" comes from Greek "nomos" which means "managing". So "ergonomic" should mean something like "pertaining to work management". So "ergonomics" should mean something like "study/science of work management". So "ergonomical" should mean something like "pertaining to Ergonomics", but since that's covered well enough by "ergonomic" it's morphed into meaning "managed to reduce work" or just "ergonomic" or even not used. Of course, many people are too lazy to determine when to add "s" or "al" (or even worse, "ly") with this and many other words, so the suffix is commonly wrongly added or wrongly omitted. The context almost always makes the meaning clear, so only semanticists care. And it is a near-universal assumption that "work management" here is concerned only with work reduction or improvements in efficiency. And that work reduction/efficiency can be either to make workers more productive or to make their jobs easier and/or safer, though the latter is more common in our Worker's Paridise. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 14: 1:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC51F37B419 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAUM1Ex09058; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:01:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:01:13 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > It makes for lousy tech, but it's smart management. If tech alone were the deciding factor, we'd be running FreeMultics, not FreeBSD. > I don't believe the world was ever Apple's > oyster ... There was a time when I and just about everyone else in IT lusted after Macs. They were incredibly cool and light-years ahead of everyone else. But they were very, very expensive, and the price didn't come down, nor did the functionality dramatically increase. Finally Windows came alone, and it wasn't quite as nice, but it was affordable--Apple took no notice of this approaching storm. We went to Windows because we could. And Windows got better and better, whereas the Mac just retreated into its little niche and pouted at the world. And so the Mac faded away, and Windows became the alpha dog. > ... and I helped found a company that sold Apple ]['s > ... That was _before_ Apple's golden age, although I lusted after an Apple II as well, IIRC. Only with a Trinitron monitor, though! > ... actually, we sold the black Apples for licensing > reasons ... Another one of Apple's continuing mistakes has been its desire to keep everything to itself. It even pulled the licenses of some legitimate Mac builders not long ago, as I recall. Once again, Apple shoots itself in the foot. > For Windowing environments, the Mac never caught > up with DOS, so that clearly wasn't it. The Mac was well ahead of DOS and Windows for a few crucial years. As usual, Apple just stupidly ignored the open door, and plodded further towards oblivion. > As soon as MS had a windowing environment that > was good enough - 3.0 - Apple lost the the windowing > environment ... Yup. And it didn't have to be that way. With management like Apple has had through the years, it has never really needed any enemies. > ... though the Mac can still be found in desktop > publishing and graphics markets that haven't converted > yet. That is mostly inertia today. There is almost nothing one can do with a Mac in graphics and publishing that one cannot do in Windows. Even companies like Adobe now develop new releases for Windows first, and the Mac second--because that's what customers are asking for. Furthermore, the Mac doesn't have any other significant domains in its embrace; take away graphics and publishing, and there's practically nothing left. Windows, on the other hand, can do anything. I should point out, while alluding to applications, that while Windows profits on the desktop because there are a hundred thousand desktop applications for Windows, UNIX profits on servers for a similar reason: there are hundreds of thousands of applications that run on UNIX and suit a server or timesharing environment. I daresay that if you need support for the world's most bizarre and obscure network protocol--or even a slightly exotic protocol--you're far more likely to find it for UNIX than for Windows. I've been regularly pleased by the bewildering variety of network and related software available for UNIX. I don't think there is any system in the world that a UNIX system cannot communicate with. > They react to them like they do to most things > that malfunction regularly. The only problem with this is that Windows does _not_ "malfunction regularly." > They all went where microsoft wanted them to go. Where else was there to go? > Proprietary standards lock you down. Open standards > don't. "Open" standards lock you down just as much when the system you are using doesn't support them. > Or Windows. Yes. > That's one of the major disadvantages of not > using Windows: I don't get a FreeBSD driver for > the hardware when I buy it. Yes, although it depends somewhat upon the type of hardware you are acquiring. You're more likely to get a driver for a StorageTek silo for UNIX than Windows, I think. But there are compensating factors that are particularly significant in server environments. For example, PPTP can be a pain to get running on Windows, even though Microsoft was one of the originators of the protocol. PPPoE is even worse--as far as I know, only one or two solutions exist, all of them black boxes from tiny companies. But all of this is standard stuff for UNIX; indeed, _anything_ having to do with a network is standard stuff for UNIX. UNIX already incorporates lots of IPv6 support; I don't expect to ever see that for Windows NT. > On the other hand, the ability to run Linux > binaries meant I'd have a good shot at getting > commercial Unix software running on FreeBSD. Does Linux compatibility in FreeBSD extend to drivers? I wish there were less hype for Linux; it's about at the bottom of the totem pole of UNIX systems, and it pains me to think that it is being held up as a model for all of them. It's like exhibiting a Yugo as a model of the auto industry. > However, there is no single compenent that > can't be replaced by another application > with similar functionality should the need > arise. And how long would that take? > Except, as we discussed in the other thread, > that even Windows NT still suffers from design > decisions made during the Windows 3.1 era > that catered to the single-tasking nature of > DOS. It still emulates certain things for compatibility. But the kernel doesn't require this emulation. > Except that in the other thread, you already > pointed out that NT has an event model that > ultimately derives from the DOS-based Windows 3.1 > environment. It's more complicated than that, actually. The emulation of Windows 3.x is quite strict for 16-bit applications, as they won't run without emulation of that brain-dead system. However, you can, say, run multiple VDMs for your 16-bit applications (as I do) to help keep them from interfering with each other. The 32-bit applications have more autonomy. There is still a lot of message traffic, though. And don't forget, even when applications receive only events that they register for, a lot of applications register for just about everything, thanks to clueless developers who think consistently in terms of a single-user desktop only (and I've seen this kind of mistake even in MS software). > You just agreed with my NT developer friend. He > said that when they added 9x compatability, they > made NT less stable. He must have been referring to NT 4.0. I always resented those changes. It was one step toward the desktop, and away from the mainframe. But, to FreeBSD's advantage, it also made NT less suitable as a server. > What he was really upset about was he that the > level of compatability they got didn't require > compromising stability; they could have gotten > the same level and kept stability where it was. True. A lot of code was transplanted from Windows 9x to NT to get those changes in. And if you know how badly written Windows 9x is, and how well written NT was, it is indeed depressing to contemplate. One reason Explorer sometimes hangs or has other problems is that it was so largely coped from Windows 9x. > Quit confusing the window manager and the server. > The window manager doesn't require any extra priveleges. Without a server, what good is the windows manager? If you are running UNIX as a desktop, you're running an X server on the UNIX machine itself. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 14: 6: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F2737B417 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:05:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAUM5mx09069; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:05:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org><036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org><03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org><040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.44663.511557.67023@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:05:49 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > One of the things that makes Windows an unpleasant > desktop for me is that many of the applications > act like they are the only thing running, which > make using the multitasking ability of the system > much more painfull than it is on Unix. Yes. That is a tremendously common design error in Windows applications, and I've even seen it in Microsoft products (for example, I hate the way many MS products force themselves to take the input focus when they are started--sometimes I want to start the application but still do other things while it is coming up). > Unix has enough applications to be flexible enough > to get the job done. Not for the desktop. > That's true for only one of the users I know. For > the rest, it only matters if they can download a > copy from the net, or get one from a friend. Your users must be mostly geeks. Non-geeks don't know how to download things from the Net. > First, you might try VNC instead of pcAnywhere. I don't plan to attempt any remote administration of NT if I can avoid it. > Since even heavy users seldom use more than a > few hundred applications, having access to a > few thousand is usually sufficient ... The problem is that they don't all need access to the _same_ thousand applications. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 14:19:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (h24-64-56-135.cg.shawcable.net [24.64.56.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771EC37B421 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:19:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fAUMJ3b14173; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:19:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fAUMJ3S40314; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:19:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:19:03 -0700 From: Chad David To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. Message-ID: <20011130151903.A40291@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org><036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org><03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org><040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.44663.511557.67023@guru.mired.org> <003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 11:05:49PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 11:05:49PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mike writes: > > > Unix has enough applications to be flexible enough > > to get the job done. > > Not for the desktop. Interesting, I've been using it on my desktop for years. > > > That's true for only one of the users I know. For > > the rest, it only matters if they can download a > > copy from the net, or get one from a friend. > > Your users must be mostly geeks. Non-geeks don't know how to download things > from the Net. That hasn't really been true for 2-3 years. Every user I know can download things from the net... in fact I sometimes wish they would forget! > > > First, you might try VNC instead of pcAnywhere. > > I don't plan to attempt any remote administration of NT if I can avoid it. You must not have servers on then 18th floor, users on then 12th and your desk on the 10th :). -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 14:30:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C6B237B405 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 50636 invoked by uid 100); 30 Nov 2001 22:30:04 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:30:04 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > It makes for lousy tech, but it's smart management. > If tech alone were the deciding factor, we'd be running FreeMultics, not > FreeBSD. Can't argue with that. I have a habit of buying the best *technical* solution to a problem, and ignoring popularity. I've ownd a lot of orphans. > > I don't believe the world was ever Apple's > > oyster ... > There was a time when I and just about everyone else in IT lusted after Macs. > They were incredibly cool and light-years ahead of everyone else. But they were > very, very expensive, and the price didn't come down, nor did the functionality > dramatically increase. Finally Windows came alone, and it wasn't quite as nice, > but it was affordable--Apple took no notice of this approaching storm. We went > to Windows because we could. And Windows got better and better, whereas the Mac > just retreated into its little niche and pouted at the world. And so the Mac > faded away, and Windows became the alpha dog. This ties back to tech vs. marketing. Even when it had the best tech around, Apple priced it to high to compete with DOS. MS did what MS does best, and built a solution that would sell in the market. Apple hadn't done that because they had the prices to high. At that time, other companies were selling Unix workstations to people who could afford them. But they made Mac's look cheap. > > For Windowing environments, the Mac never caught > > up with DOS, so that clearly wasn't it. > The Mac was well ahead of DOS and Windows for a few crucial years. As usual, > Apple just stupidly ignored the open door, and plodded further towards oblivion. Are you claiming there was a time when there were more Mac's than there were DOS boxes? That would certainly surprise me. There was clearly a time when there were probably more Mac's than Windows on top of DOS boxes. Most of the the time Windows 1.0, which shipped before the Mac, and Windows 2.0 were shipping, for instance. > > As soon as MS had a windowing environment that > > was good enough - 3.0 - Apple lost the the windowing > > environment ... > Yup. And it didn't have to be that way. With management like Apple has had > through the years, it has never really needed any enemies. I can't argue. On the other hand, during that period I had an Amiga on my desktop. That was the first affordable desktop system that had true multitasking in it. Oddly enough, people using DOS and the Mac griped that multitasking was a waste for a personal computer, and nobody would ever need those things. They also complained that color was worthless, as what would you do with it? I wonder how many of them still think that way. For a time, the Amiga owned the desktop and home video Market. The Babylon 5 TV series was produced on Amigas. But CBM hired the same genius who brought us the PC Jr, and the company folded. > > They react to them like they do to most things > > that malfunction regularly. > The only problem with this is that Windows does _not_ "malfunction regularly." I thought we had already agreed that the consumer version - which is what these people are using - wasn't really suitable for heavy use because it malfunctions regularly. At least it does for these people. > > They all went where microsoft wanted them to go. > Where else was there to go? Unfortunately for them, nowhere. > > Proprietary standards lock you down. Open standards > > don't. > "Open" standards lock you down just as much when the system you are using > doesn't support them. That's what you get for choosing your platform, then trying to find applications to run on it. You need to do things the other way 'round to get superior solutions. Of course, as you're so fond of pointing out, there are 100,000 applications available for Windows. I'm pretty sure that applications that support most open standards can be found in that group. > But there are compensating factors that are particularly significant in server > environments. For example, PPTP can be a pain to get running on Windows, even > though Microsoft was one of the originators of the protocol. PPPoE is even > worse--as far as I know, only one or two solutions exist, all of them black > boxes from tiny companies. But all of this is standard stuff for UNIX; indeed, > _anything_ having to do with a network is standard stuff for UNIX. UNIX already > incorporates lots of IPv6 support; I don't expect to ever see that for Windows > NT. Uh - I don't think MS originated PPP. I know they originated some extensions that ISPs pretty much had to follow because 99% of their customers ran Windows, but that's a different thing. > > On the other hand, the ability to run Linux > > binaries meant I'd have a good shot at getting > > commercial Unix software running on FreeBSD. > Does Linux compatibility in FreeBSD extend to drivers? Nope, but it doesn't matter for me. Going the other way - being able to run FreeBSD drivers on Windows - is what would be important. Even though you didn't ask, I'll point out that you can't run linux shared libraries in a FreeBSD binary, either. This most often comes up with people wanting some Linux plugin for Mozilla to work. > I wish there were less hype for Linux; it's about at the bottom of the totem > pole of UNIX systems, and it pains me to think that it is being held up as a > model for all of them. It's like exhibiting a Yugo as a model of the auto > industry. I hate to tell you this, but it's *not* at the bottom of the Totem pole. At the very least, AIX is beneath it. AIX is a Unix with most of the user interface designed by the MVS group at IBM - or at least it felt that way to me. > > However, there is no single compenent that > > can't be replaced by another application > > with similar functionality should the need > > arise. > And how long would that take? Depends on the application. For some of them, zero time, because the functionality is duplicated. Converting to Linux would probably take a day or more. > > Except, as we discussed in the other thread, > > that even Windows NT still suffers from design > > decisions made during the Windows 3.1 era > > that catered to the single-tasking nature of > > DOS. > It still emulates certain things for compatibility. But the kernel doesn't > require this emulation. Nah, just the windowing desktop - which means it's incorrect to claim that Windows NT was designed from scratch for a windowing environment. > > Quit confusing the window manager and the server. > > The window manager doesn't require any extra priveleges. > Without a server, what good is the windows manager? If you are running UNIX as > a desktop, you're running an X server on the UNIX machine itself. True. But you don't have to run the window manager on that machine. There was a time when I ran the window manager on a VAX talking to a server on a Sun, because I got better response that way. My running the window manager on the VAX didn't change it's security whatsoever. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 14:44:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B8CBF37B630 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 50953 invoked by uid 100); 30 Nov 2001 22:43:58 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15368.2990.775120.843902@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:43:58 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. In-Reply-To: <003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org> <036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org> <03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org> <040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.44663.511557.67023@guru.mired.org> <003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Unix has enough applications to be flexible enough > > to get the job done. > Not for the desktop. For any desktop that doesn't require the ability to work with proprietary formats, there are. Getting locked into a proprietary format is a bad business decision, but if you don't know what that means, you're liable to do it because it's cheaper. > > That's true for only one of the users I know. For > > the rest, it only matters if they can download a > > copy from the net, or get one from a friend. > Your users must be mostly geeks. Non-geeks don't know how to download things > from the Net. Nope. None of them are geeks. My mother, who's a retired art teacher. A couple of truck drivers. An appliance repairman. An aircraft maintenance engineer. A sprint customer service rep. One handles commercial accounts for a local hotel. Another is the assistant manager at Borders. Only one of them deals with the computer as anything but an appliance, but most of them know how to download things from the net. The hotel guy bought his first computer less than a year ago, and has already cancelled digital cable TV to get a cable modem instead. That's how much he values being able to download things from the net. > > Since even heavy users seldom use more than a > > few hundred applications, having access to a > > few thousand is usually sufficient ... > The problem is that they don't all need access to the _same_ thousand > applications. Actually, they don't all need access to the same _hundred_ applications. That's why a selection of a few thousand is enough for most people. I'm sure there are some small niche markets for which usable software only exists for Windows. Of course, there are also small niche markets for which software only exists for Unix. The auto mechanic I used in the sf bay area ran all their accounting/ordering software on Sun workstations, for instance. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 14:48:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74BB737B416 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAUMmWx09191; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:48:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005101c179f1$248dda40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Chad David" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org><036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org><03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org><040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.44663.511557.67023@guru.mired.org> <003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011130151903.A40291@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:48:33 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chad writes: > Interesting, I've been using it on my desktop > for years. Your application requirements are probably more circumscribed than most. > That hasn't really been true for 2-3 years. Every > user I know can download things from the net... in > fact I sometimes wish they would forget! They can download MP3s and games, but typically they don't know how to download or even how to find most other stuff. > You must not have servers on then 18th floor, > users on then 12th and your desk on the 10th :). Not at the moment, no. I don't miss it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 15: 6:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E9E37B41A for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAUN6Px09251; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:06:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org><003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:06:26 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > I have a habit of buying the best *technical* > solution to a problem, and ignoring popularity. So do I. So do many on these lists, I suspect. > I've ownd a lot of orphans. Hmm ... I don't know of any reason why the best technical solutions would necessarily be any more likely to become orphans than the less-than-best. Indeed, all else being equal, they should be more likely to succeed, overall. That has been my own experience, although the margin is narrow. > At that time, other companies were selling > Unix workstations to people who could afford > them. But they made Mac's look cheap. If they had sold UNIX workstations at PC prices--which they could have done, if they weren't so concerned about fat margins, instead of high volume--we might all be using UNIX workstations today. > Are you claiming there was a time when there > were more Mac's than there were DOS boxes? No, I'm claiming that there was a time when a Mac was the best machine to have. But most people couldn't afford one, and Apple didn't want to cut its margins. > On the other hand, during that period I had > an Amiga on my desktop. I was the last person in my unit to get a PC, at my own request, and it was the junkiest of the lot, being a hand-me-down that had gone through many other engineers; the disk made a funny, spring-like noise all the time. Still, there weren't many applications for DOS at the time that had any relevance to my work, so I ran it mostly as an emulator of the terminal I had lost. Eventually I wrote a simple text editor and a communications program for it, and used it to edit files for use on the mainframe. Someone told me that a 286 could never go past 4800 bps, so I wrote a comm program that ran at 38400 bps without any trouble. Eventually I installed an early version of Microsoft Word on the machine, but it was incredibly slow--I had to stop typing periodically so that it could catch up with me. I used Word only for writing documentation. > Oddly enough, people using DOS and the Mac > griped that multitasking was a waste for a > personal computer, and nobody would ever need > those things. I don't even recall it being discussed. It would have been a waste for DOS, that's true. > They also complained that color was worthless, > as what would you do with it? I had a color monitor from the start. I remember people flaming me for writing in upper and lower case, though. Using lowercase letters made things "complicated" according to them, and served no useful purpose. I BET THERE ARENT MANY OF THEM WHO FEEL THAT WAY NOW STOP TIMES CHANGE STOP > For a time, the Amiga owned the desktop and > home video Market. I never used an Amiga, but I understand its graphics were second to none for many years. > I thought we had already agreed that the consumer > version - which is what these people are using - > wasn't really suitable for heavy use because it > malfunctions regularly. It doesn't malfunction _regularly_, just more often than a power user is likely to tolerate. I'd say that about 95% of Windows users almost never see a crash of the machine. The remaining 5% probably see two or more crashes a day. In my own examination of this phenomenon, I've discovered that the latter group does a lot more uninformed twiddling with the machine than the former group, and it also installs far more "junk" software, including lots of shareware and freeware and games. Indeed, these latter clueless individuals even install stuff without knowing what it is for. And when their disks fill, they just step through folders and delete anything that looks big. > That's what you get for choosing your platform, > then trying to find applications to run on it. Sometimes you need more than one application, and no platform can run them all. > Of course, as you're so fond of pointing out, > there are 100,000 applications available for > Windows. I'm pretty sure that applications > that support most open standards can be found > in that group. Free X servers for Windows seem to be scarce. > Uh - I don't think MS originated PPP. Not PPP ... PPTP. Microsoft and Sun and possibly some others. MS also added some proprietary extensions, I think. > I know they originated some extensions that ISPs > pretty much had to follow because 99% of their > customers ran Windows, but that's a different > thing. Yes. > Going the other way - being able to run FreeBSD > drivers on Windows - is what would be important. When you dream, you dream big! > I hate to tell you this, but it's *not* at the > bottom of the Totem pole. At the very least, > AIX is beneath it. AIX is a Unix with most of > the user interface designed by the MVS group > at IBM - or at least it felt that way to me. But AIX isn't being given away in magazines to idiot college and high-school students. > Nah, just the windowing desktop - which means > it's incorrect to claim that Windows NT was > designed from scratch for a windowing environment. It was always understood that the primary and default user interface would be a GUI. However, NT originally was designed to support any arbitrary user interface, not just the Win32 subsystem. > True. But you don't have to run the window > manager on that machine. But if you are running the X server on that machine, the window manager is the least of your worries. So can you run any X server on FreeBSD itself with secure_level=3, or set to anything about -1? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 15: 8:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727AE37B41A for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAUN89x09256; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:08:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005b01c179f3$e1ffb510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org><036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org><03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org><040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.44663.511557.67023@guru.mired.org><003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2990.775120.843902@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:08:10 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > The hotel guy bought his first computer less > than a year ago, and has already cancelled > digital cable TV to get a cable modem instead. > That's how much he values being able to download > things from the net. Ah ... you're counting alt.binaries.*, then! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 15:28: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BD5337B417 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 52059 invoked by uid 100); 30 Nov 2001 23:27:52 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:27:52 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > I've ownd a lot of orphans. > Hmm ... I don't know of any reason why the best technical solutions would > necessarily be any more likely to become orphans than the less-than-best. > Indeed, all else being equal, they should be more likely to succeed, overall. > That has been my own experience, although the margin is narrow. All else is seldom, if ever, equal. Once you get past "good enough", marketing is more important than the technology. In other words, the best marketed product that is "good enough" will win. > > At that time, other companies were selling > > Unix workstations to people who could afford > > them. But they made Mac's look cheap. > If they had sold UNIX workstations at PC prices--which they could have done, if > they weren't so concerned about fat margins, instead of high volume--we might > all be using UNIX workstations today. I don't believe there was any way they could have sold Unix workstations at PC prices. You can't build a reasonable Unix workstation using PC parts for PC prices today; why should they have been able to do it with proprietary hardware back then? > > Are you claiming there was a time when there > > were more Mac's than there were DOS boxes? > No, I'm claiming that there was a time when a Mac was the best machine to have. > But most people couldn't afford one, and Apple didn't want to cut its margins. I'll disagree with that. The Apple Lisa predated the Mac, and was a much better machine to own. It was also a lot more expensive. Before it died, you could buy Unix workstations running proprietary windowing environments which would do everything the early Mac would do, and then some. Before Windows 3.0 was introduced, you could buy Amigas. > > Oddly enough, people using DOS and the Mac > > griped that multitasking was a waste for a > > personal computer, and nobody would ever need > > those things. > I don't even recall it being discussed. It would have been a waste for DOS, > that's true. You didn't hang out in electronic forums for people using multitasking on their desktop in the late 80s, then. It was a common topic there. > > For a time, the Amiga owned the desktop and > > home video Market. > I never used an Amiga, but I understand its graphics were second to none for > many years. Yup. Those graphics had a lot to do with why it died, to. After the mass market caught up and then passed it, it took several revs of the OS before they had an API for the driver that would let them move to other platforms. By which time they were close to dead. > > I thought we had already agreed that the consumer > > version - which is what these people are using - > > wasn't really suitable for heavy use because it > > malfunctions regularly. > It doesn't malfunction _regularly_, just more often than a power user is likely > to tolerate. > > I'd say that about 95% of Windows users almost never see a crash of the machine. > The remaining 5% probably see two or more crashes a day. In my own examination > of this phenomenon, I've discovered that the latter group does a lot more > uninformed twiddling with the machine than the former group, and it also > installs far more "junk" software, including lots of shareware and freeware and > games. Indeed, these latter clueless individuals even install stuff without > knowing what it is for. And when their disks fill, they just step through > folders and delete anything that looks big. My time on Windows was running a machine installed by the IT department, with an MCSE. It still crashed twice a day, even though I put absolutely nothing else on it. and didn't twiddle with it at all. > > That's what you get for choosing your platform, > > then trying to find applications to run on it. > Sometimes you need more than one application, and no platform can run them all. That's when you need multiple platforms. But we agreed on that a long time ago. > > Of course, as you're so fond of pointing out, > > there are 100,000 applications available for > > Windows. I'm pretty sure that applications > > that support most open standards can be found > > in that group. > Free X servers for Windows seem to be scarce. XFree86 comes with source. Feel free to port it. On the other hand, I regularly write X apps for Unix that then run unchanged on Windows and the Mac. > > Going the other way - being able to run FreeBSD > > drivers on Windows - is what would be important. > When you dream, you dream big! No, when I typo, I typo big. Being able to run FreeBSD drivers on Linux would be my problem. > > I hate to tell you this, but it's *not* at the > > bottom of the Totem pole. At the very least, > > AIX is beneath it. AIX is a Unix with most of > > the user interface designed by the MVS group > > at IBM - or at least it felt that way to me. > But AIX isn't being given away in magazines to idiot college and high-school > students. For which both we and they should be thankful. > > True. But you don't have to run the window > > manager on that machine. > But if you are running the X server on that machine, the window manager is the > least of your worries. So can you run any X server on FreeBSD itself with > secure_level=3, or set to anything about -1? I told you, I believe the answer is yes, but it will take some investigation to verify it. If you want me to do that, you've got to pay for my time. If you want to do it yourself, I'll tell you the things to try. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 15:29:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9201C37B419 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:29:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 52121 invoked by uid 100); 30 Nov 2001 23:29:13 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15368.5705.930210.151774@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:29:13 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. In-Reply-To: <005b01c179f3$e1ffb510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org> <036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org> <03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org> <040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.44663.511557.67023@guru.mired.org> <003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2990.775120.843902@guru.mired.org> <005b01c179f3$e1ffb510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > The hotel guy bought his first computer less > > than a year ago, and has already cancelled > > digital cable TV to get a cable modem instead. > > That's how much he values being able to download > > things from the net. > Ah ... you're counting alt.binaries.*, then! Nope. I don't think he even knows netnews exists. Mostly, it's mp3's and mpegs. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 15:51:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (h24-64-56-135.cg.shawcable.net [24.64.56.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0D537B419 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fAUNpfb14435; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:51:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fAUNpfC41289; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:51:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:51:41 -0700 From: Chad David To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. Message-ID: <20011130165141.A41249@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org><036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org><03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org><040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.44663.511557.67023@guru.mired.org> <003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011130151903.A40291@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <005101c179f1$248dda40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <005101c179f1$248dda40$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 11:48:33PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 11:48:33PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Chad writes: > > > Interesting, I've been using it on my desktop > > for years. > > Your application requirements are probably more circumscribed than most. I don't know, I've gone from systems programmer to President and CEO of a software company back to "retired" programmer without ever having a need that AIX/Solaris/BSD couldn't fill (except maybe Starcraft for a while). For example, it wasn't that long ago that WordPerfect was the desktop standard, and it ran just fine on Unix. > > > That hasn't really been true for 2-3 years. Every > > user I know can download things from the net... in > > fact I sometimes wish they would forget! > > They can download MP3s and games, but typically they don't know how to download > or even how to find most other stuff. What exactly is stuff? If you can download an MP3 or games you should be able to download anything else? -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 20: 2:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FED837B419 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3E0BD2D; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12644; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:02:24 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB142lg95034; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:02:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Mike Meyer Cc: "Anthony Atkielski" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 30 Nov 2001 20:02:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > I don't believe there was any way they could have sold Unix > workstations at PC prices. You can't build a reasonable Unix > workstation using PC parts for PC prices today; why should they have > been able to do it with proprietary hardware back then? Remember late '80s Apollo/DOMAIN workstations? 68000 CPU; ISA peripheral bus; PC-class hardware, but still twice the cost of a top-of-the-line IBM PC clone, IIRC. Workstation buyers wanted/needed better-than-PC systems. Like huge 200 MB disks, big B&W monitor with custom, better-than-PC video, token-ring network interface, mouse. Plus enough memory to run really good GUI document publishing software like Interleaf or Framemaker. Plus they had to pay for the cost of developing their GUI OS which was better than M$ could come up with in years of foot dragging. Actually they said it was really a custom OS (DOMAIN?) simulating Unix. (I think you could also run X, but we normally didn't.) They sold out to HP in the early 90s. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 20:15:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4214237B405 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 20:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 56787 invoked by uid 100); 1 Dec 2001 04:15:47 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15368.22899.323884.742712@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:15:47 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: "Anthony Atkielski" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > Mike Meyer writes: > > I don't believe there was any way they could have sold Unix > > workstations at PC prices. You can't build a reasonable Unix > > workstation using PC parts for PC prices today; why should they have > > been able to do it with proprietary hardware back then? > > Remember late '80s Apollo/DOMAIN workstations? 68000 CPU; ISA > peripheral bus; PC-class hardware, but still twice the cost of a > top-of-the-line IBM PC clone, IIRC. Not really, but I remember other 68000 based Unix workstations. The 68000 couldn't handle a page fault properly, so there was custom hardware in the system to help deal with that. At least one of them used a second 68000. The hardware held the "memory wait" line high while it went and fetched the page that was faulting. Of course, if you wanted to get a *really* good system - the kind that the people who wrote the Unix-haters Handbook used - you could put some serious cash down, and get a Symbolics box that used a couple of 68000's for handling low and medium speed I/O. > Workstation buyers wanted/needed better-than-PC systems. Like huge 200 > MB disks, big B&W monitor with custom, better-than-PC video, token-ring > network interface, mouse. Plus enough memory to run really good GUI > document publishing software like Interleaf or Framemaker. Those huge 200MB disk drives were all SCSI as well. IDE couldn't deliver the performance a real worstation needed. > Plus they had to pay for the cost of developing their GUI OS which > was better than M$ could come up with in years of foot dragging. > Actually they said it was really a custom OS (DOMAIN?) simulating Unix. > (I think you could also run X, but we normally didn't.) Yup, the OS was called DOMAIN. They used the slogan "The network is the computer" before Sun did. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 21: 1:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from y3k.shacknet.nu (ts6m-pool0-112.gti.net [208.216.115.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954D637B41A for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from shacknet.nu (localhost.gti.net [127.0.0.1]) by y3k.shacknet.nu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fB158aY35810; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:08:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from y3k@gti.net) Received: from 208.216.115.112 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mark) by y3k.shacknet.nu with HTTP; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:08:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4237.208.216.115.112.1007183317.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:08:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) From: "Mark Yeck" To: anthony@freebie.atkielski.com In-Reply-To: <020c01c178a1$bea114e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <020c01c178a1$bea114e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.0.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to freebsd-chat] > Mark writes: > >> Being purpose-built isnt in and of itself a >> technical advantage ... > > I disagree. All else being equal, a purpose-built system is always > superior to a generalized system. This is not always true. A popular topic in engineering circles these days is Design Reuse. There are many advantages to modify a proven system to meet the requirements of a similar task, or using proven elements of an existing system in a new system, over designing a purpose built system completely from scratch. >> ... and it could be argued that it's offset >> by the fact that UNIX was on the desktop years >> before Windows existed. > > Being around for years has nothing to do with technical suitability for > a specific purpose. Mere existance for a longer time means nothing, of course, but constant refinement over a longer period time is a definate advantage. I'm not sure of the exact length of time, but my estimates are that UNIX has been on the desktop for at least 13 years, Windows for about 8 and Windows NT for about 6. >> As far as I can recall, the only strictly technical >> arguement you've offered was the tighter integration >> with the hardware (mostly for games). > > Plus a single-user design, and native GUI support. I've never seen an advantage for the end user due to either of these. -mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 22:22:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BD337B405 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB16M0x12887; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:22:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org><003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org><005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:21:59 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > All else is seldom, if ever, equal. Once you > get past "good enough", marketing is more > important than the technology. In other words, > the best marketed product that is "good enough" > will win. That's because once you get past "good enough," technology doesn't matter (otherwise it wouldn't be good enough, would it?). > You can't build a reasonable Unix workstation > using PC parts for PC prices today ... Why not? > The Apple Lisa predated the Mac, and was a > much better machine to own. That was a machine I only heard about, never saw. > You didn't hang out in electronic forums for > people using multitasking on their desktop > in the late 80s, then. No. I didn't need to multitask under MS-DOS, and Windows did it well enough for my purposes, most of the time (except when a program misbehaved). > My time on Windows was running a machine installed > by the IT department, with an MCSE. It still crashed > twice a day, even though I put absolutely nothing > else on it. and didn't twiddle with it at all. Your "MCSE" probably installed a buggy driver, if you truly had virtually nothing running on the machine. Drivers are the Achilles heel of most systems, and the situation does not seem to be improving much. Hardware companies usually write really bad software, and that includes drivers, and yet drivers must be trusted by the OS. So you end up with crashes caused by drivers a lot. The situation is bad enough that sometimes I've chosen lesser hardware just to get more reliable drivers (e.g., a Matrox card instead of a fancier video card just because Matrox usually has more stable drivers). > XFree86 comes with source. Feel free to port it. Who will pay me for this? > If you want me to do that, you've got to > pay for my time. Sorry, but I understand. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 22:24:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3E337B417 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB16O2x12892; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:24:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <009001c17a30$c5974a90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Chad David" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15366.58396.746782.116282@guru.mired.org><036901c17949$335163b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.35596.70893.123850@guru.mired.org><03fa01c179ac$e85cdba0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.40254.191788.665077@guru.mired.org><040c01c179b0$c01ff790$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.44663.511557.67023@guru.mired.org> <003801c179eb$2cd9ef00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011130151903.A40291@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <005101c179f1$248dda40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011130165141.A41249@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:24:02 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chad writes: > I don't know, I've gone from systems programmer > to President and CEO of a software company back > to "retired" programmer without ever having a need > that AIX/Solaris/BSD couldn't fill ... So you've always worked in IT. That's a pretty circumscribed field, and the applications IT users require tend to be applications that exist on many different platforms. > What exactly is stuff? Things like operating systems, patches, and the like. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 22:30:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BAF37B405 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB16Uax12913; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:30:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <009d01c17a31$b0c3c250$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mark Yeck" Cc: References: <020c01c178a1$bea114e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <4237.208.216.115.112.1007183317.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:30:36 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Mere existance for a longer time means nothing, > of course, but constant refinement over a longer > period time is a definate advantage. Yes, there is something to be said for that. That's one reason why I decided to go with FreeBSD rather than Linux. > I've never seen an advantage for the end user > due to either of these. You can do lots more cools stuff when you have the unrestricted access to machine resources that single-user systems provide. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 22:36:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E029B37B442; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fB16aIR60113; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:36:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , , "Eric Melville" , "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" , Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:36:17 -0800 Message-ID: <000101c17a32$7b472c60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] >Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 6:08 AM >To: Anthony Atkielski >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; Andrew C. Hornback; Mike Meyer; chat@freebsd.org; >Eric Melville; Randall Hamilton; GB Clark II; chat@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > > >As for the second part, most of the Windows users I know are hostile >to computers. Those that have had experience with things other than >Windows - the Mac, for instance - tend to be hostile to Windows. > Hey Mike - great tagline there! :-) > >Windows certainly isn't that. It's basis is DOS, which was a >single-tasking program loader. Ahem - that's "non-reentrant program loader" :-) >Every version since has been saddled >with backwards compatability to that design, which is one of the >reasons for those platforms being unstable. I've been told by an NT >developer that that was the reason that Windows NT was so unstable >that even Bill Gates admitted it. > Bill Gates also at the 1990 Comdex made a speech in which he proclaimed that OS/2 would be the most important operating system of the 90's. >manager that was under active development. Basically, using Windows - >either 3.1, 95 or 98 - for a single day results in more problems from >the GUI than I've had with 15 years using four different graphics >servers and seven different window managers of release quality on >Unix. > I'll make on comment on that here. I've not seen this under Windows GUI - as long as I was running all Microsoft programs. There's a reason for that... Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 22:40:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3618137B416 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB16e4x12940; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:40:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00a801c17a33$02c9e0b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: References: <000101c17a32$7b472c60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:40:04 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted writes: > I've not seen this under Windows GUI -> as > long as I was running all Microsoft programs. > There's a reason for that... Yes: Microsoft writes better software than most PC software companies, particularly for Windows. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 23:18:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A084E37B405 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.132.230.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.132.230] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16A4Po-0000H0-00; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:18:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3C08846C.3C13C71F@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:19:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Yeck Cc: anthony@freebie.atkielski.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) References: <020c01c178a1$bea114e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <4237.208.216.115.112.1007183317.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Yeck wrote: > > I disagree. All else being equal, a purpose-built system is always > > superior to a generalized system. Wrong. > This is not always true. A popular topic in engineering circles these days > is Design Reuse. There are many advantages to modify a proven system to meet > the requirements of a similar task, or using proven elements of an existing > system in a new system, over designing a purpose built system completely > from scratch. Cool. Uh, of course this will let the blackhats obtain "exploit reuse"... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 23:32:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BDC337B405 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:32:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fB17WMR60199; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:32:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:32:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c17a3a$50a70720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00a801c17a33$02c9e0b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@freebie.atkielski.com] >Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 10:40 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: chat@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > > >Ted writes: > >> I've not seen this under Windows GUI -> as >> long as I was running all Microsoft programs. >> There's a reason for that... > >Yes: Microsoft writes better software than most PC software companies, >particularly for Windows. > you mean "only for Windows" The little non-Windows software that they write is atrocious. Also it's easy to do when you don't provide adequate technical details to developers that want to write Windows software. This is after all one of the items that Microsoft admitted to in the anti-trust settlement proposal. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 23:35:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D1737B416 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:35:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB17ZBx13051; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:35:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00fc01c17a3a$b73b8e70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: , "Mark Yeck" Cc: References: <020c01c178a1$bea114e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <4237.208.216.115.112.1007183317.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> <3C08846C.3C13C71F@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:35:11 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark wrote: > Wrong. Well, that's certainly a reasoned and persuasive argument. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 23:37:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A784737B416 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB17b2x13056; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:37:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010101c17a3a$f8714830$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: References: <000201c17a3a$50a70720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:37:03 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted writes: > The little non-Windows software that they write > is atrocious. Examples? I don't use any of their non-Windows software. > Also it's easy to do when you don't provide > adequate technical details to developers > that want to write Windows software. It depends on what kind of Windows software you wish to write. And the majority of the bugs I've seen in non-MS Windows software cannot be explained by any lack of technical detail provided by MS; they are just the result of poor programming practices. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 30 23:49:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C6937B416 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id ABA2746B00A6; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:49:54 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: libh question Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:49:40 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20011130234957.SM03896@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was just perusing the ports and found the libh port. It looks interesti= ng.=20 I am wondering who is using this tool, or if it is even useable yet? -- Chip To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 0:17:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428BC37B405; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:17:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fB18H5R60263; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:17:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , "Mike Meyer" , , "Eric Melville" , "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:17:05 -0800 Message-ID: <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@freebie.atkielski.com] >Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 6:57 AM >To: Mike Meyer >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; Andrew C. Hornback; Mike Meyer; chat@freebsd.org; >Eric Melville; Randall Hamilton; GB Clark II >Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > > >> No, it isn't. You overlooked what happens in >> reality, which is that the users go where >> Microsoft wants them to be, and give up on the >> being where they want to be. > >Urban legends die hard. It's comforting to think that Microsoft succeeded by >cheating somehow, But they did. Small decisions made at the beginning of an industry can have tremendous reprecussions later on and it's not just the computer industry that this is the case. And they never stopped cheating either, you can read the anti-trust trial transcripts, the outright lies made by Microsoft are plentiful. Microsoft got in because of luck and because of underhanded practices, not ethical management. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 0:46:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE7F37B417; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB18jtx13177; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 09:45:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , "Mike Meyer" , , "Eric Melville" , "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" References: <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 09:45:55 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted writes: > But they did. As I said, urban legends die hard. > Microsoft got in because of luck and because of > underhanded practices, not ethical management. The same claim has been made about every company in history that ever reached a position of leadership. Some people just resent the fact that other persons/companies are more competent or successful than they are, and cannot accept the possibility that the success of the latter could be do to anything except some sort of cheating. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 1:19:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6777737B405 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.136.213.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.136.213] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16A6JH-0006jw-00; Sat, 01 Dec 2001 01:19:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3C08A0DF.A59CB59B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 01:20:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mark Yeck , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) References: <020c01c178a1$bea114e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <4237.208.216.115.112.1007183317.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> <3C08846C.3C13C71F@mindspring.com> <00fc01c17a3a$b73b8e70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Mark wrote: > > > Wrong. > > Well, that's certainly a reasoned and persuasive argument. It's demonstrably false. What would you accept as demonstration? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 1:24:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4B437B417; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:24:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.136.213.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.136.213] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16A6O0-0001FS-00; Sat, 01 Dec 2001 01:24:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3C08A204.3CA7014C@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 01:25:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Mike Meyer , "Andrew C. Hornback" , chat@freebsd.org, Eric Melville , Randall Hamilton , GB Clark II Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) References: <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Microsoft got in because of luck and because of > > underhanded practices, not ethical management. > > The same claim has been made about every company in history that ever reached a > position of leadership. Some people just resent the fact that other > persons/companies are more competent or successful than they are, and cannot > accept the possibility that the success of the latter could be do to anything > except some sort of cheating. Counter examples include: IBM Won the disk drive market fairly and squarely instead of by dumping to pu CDC out of the disk business. IBM Invented Microchannel architecture to improve things, not to redress their control mistake with the ISA bus. Standard Oil Owned gas stations not to force all people to buy only their product, but instead because it was just good business sense. AT&T Controlled the telephone industry, from the copper mining to the wire ducting to the manufacture of the chairs in which operators sat, in order to make the world a better place. Oh. Wait... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 1:27:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6368D37B41D for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB19RAx13267; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:27:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <011201c17a4a$5b127770$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: Cc: "Mark Yeck" , References: <020c01c178a1$bea114e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <4237.208.216.115.112.1007183317.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> <3C08846C.3C13C71F@mindspring.com> <00fc01c17a3a$b73b8e70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C08A0DF.A59CB59B@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:27:10 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > It's demonstrably false. > What would you accept as demonstration? What do you propose? You must have something in mind, if you are certain that it is demonstrably false. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 3: 3:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFAA37B405 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 03:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fB1B3PR60942; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 03:03:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 03:03:25 -0800 Message-ID: <002d01c17a57$ccb14e80$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <010101c17a3a$f8714830$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@freebie.atkielski.com] >Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:37 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: chat@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > > >Ted writes: > >> The little non-Windows software that they write >> is atrocious. > >Examples? I don't use any of their non-Windows software. IE for Solaris for rave reviews - people raved that they had to install another half a gig of ram in their Sparcs to run it! Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 4: 2: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EEA937B405; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 04:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fB1C1kR63199; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 04:01:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Andrew C. Hornback" , "Mike Meyer" , , "Eric Melville" , "Randall Hamilton" , "GB Clark II" Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 04:01:45 -0800 Message-ID: <002e01c17a5f$f2b34040$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@freebie.atkielski.com] >Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 12:46 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt; Mike Meyer >Cc: Andrew C. Hornback; Mike Meyer; chat@freebsd.org; Eric Melville; >Randall Hamilton; GB Clark II >Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > > >Ted writes: > >> But they did. > >As I said, urban legends die hard. > It's kind of hard to kill a legend based on truth. >> Microsoft got in because of luck and because of >> underhanded practices, not ethical management. > >The same claim has been made about every company in history that >ever reached a >position of leadership. Some people just resent the fact that other >persons/companies are more competent or successful than they are, and cannot >accept the possibility that the success of the latter could be do to anything >except some sort of cheating. > This is frankly rediculous. Sure there are many large companies that are competent and successful and didn't get that way by cheating. But we aren't talking about large successful companies in general, we are talking about a specific large company, Microsoft, which has been found guilty of anti-trust violations. You seem to think that anti-trust convictions are some sort of normal thing for large companies and that every large company has them routinely. This is stupid and insulting to the many large companies that do follow the law. I frankly cannot understand this attitude. Does something have to smash you in the head to get attention or what? Microsoft was found guilty of breaking the law, they are beyond cheaters, they are criminals. Many, many other large companies (Intel comes immediately to mind as a matter of fact) many even larger, have never gone through this. If the statement that Microsoft cheated to get where they were was nothing more than a claim, then no evidence would have existed to convict them. But it's not a claim, it's a statement of fact. They didn't lose some sort of popularity contest here - they lost a legal court case, a loss that even survived an appeal by them, in a court where they had unbelievable opportunity to disprove the claims, during a trial that was conducted according to defined and fair rules. You seem to forget that in a trial the burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defense. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 6:36:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from y3k.shacknet.nu (ts5m-pool0-134.gti.net [208.216.126.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7C537B416 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 06:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from shacknet.nu (localhost.gti.net [127.0.0.1]) by y3k.shacknet.nu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fB1Eh4Y40140 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 09:43:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from y3k@gti.net) Received: from 208.216.126.134 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mark) by y3k.shacknet.nu with HTTP; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 09:43:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1542.208.216.126.134.1007217789.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 09:43:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) From: "Mark Yeck" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C08846C.3C13C71F@mindspring.com> References: <3C08846C.3C13C71F@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.0.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry wrote: > Mark Yeck wrote: >> > I disagree. All else being equal, a purpose-built system is always >> > superior to a generalized system. Not a big deal, but I didnt actually write this, I responded to it. Anthony wrote: > Mark wrote: > > > Wrong. > > Well, that's certainly a reasoned and persuasive argument. Didnt write that, either... -mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 7:25: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E02FA37B416 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB1FOhx13761; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:24:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: References: <002e01c17a5f$f2b34040$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:24:43 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted writes: > Sure there are many large companies that are > competent and successful and didn't get that > way by cheating. But we aren't talking about > large successful companies in general, we are > talking about a specific large company, Microsoft, > which has been found guilty of anti-trust > violations. Examination of the historical record reveals that Microsoft's behavior, by and large, is no different from that of other companies in similar positions of market dominance. Even today, examples of similar behavior can be found among Microsoft's competitors, such as Sun and AOL. There is nothing unique about Microsoft, and it is neither more nor less honest and upstanding than its competitors. > You seem to think that anti-trust convictions > are some sort of normal thing for large companies > and that every large company has them routinely. The convictions are not routine, as only a fraction of incidents involving putatively unlawful behavior are ever the subject of a formal complaint, but the behavior itself is very widespread indeed. If one examines the Court's Conclusions of Law of April, 2000, the sheer bulk of citations of precedents alone makes it very clear that this type of behavior may well be the norm for companies in Microsoft's position, as it occurs with distressing regularity. At the same time, however, examination of the precedents in light of the actual evolution of the industries in which they occurred makes it clear that this type of behavior has only an ephemeral effect on the situation of a dominant company and its competitors. A poorly managed company will fail no matter what monopolistic behaviors it undertakes, and a well managed company will ultimately succeed without ever resorting to such behaviors. > This is stupid and insulting to the many large > companies that do follow the law. See above. Many large companies do _not_ follow the law, but they are rarely prosecuted for their violations. > I frankly cannot understand this attitude. The attitude derives from actually examining the facts and reading things like court decisions, as opposed to jumping on an emotion-powered bandwagon without bother to think for oneself. I have no intrinsic desire to love or hate Microsoft; I simply try to see things as they actually are. It is abundantly clear to even (and perhaps esepcially) Microsoft's competitors that the success of MS is almost entirely the consequence of sound business decisions, not illegal or unethical maneuvering. > Does something have to smash you in the head > to get attention or what? Violent metaphors are telltale indicators of behavior guided by emotion rather than reason. > Microsoft was found guilty of breaking the law, > they are beyond cheaters, they are criminals. No more so than any other large company. Indeed, the list of companies in Microsoft's position that have similarly violated the law is quite long. While this hardly justifies Microsoft's own violations, it does make it clear that they were not particularly exceptional, and so if one criticizes Microsoft on the basis of those violations, one should also criticize all other companies engaging in similar tactics. > Many, many other large companies (Intel comes > immediately to mind as a matter of fact) > many even larger, have never gone through > this. Intel has been the subject of many similar actions ... just ask Cyrix and AMD, or the FTC. However, Intel and its CEO have wisely kept a low profile, and have thus made fewer enemies among ostensibly disinterested parties. Microsoft and Bill Gates made the mistake of spending too much time in the public eye, attracting the envious regard of competitors and others whose own lack of success seemed all the more distressing in light of the wealth and achievement of Microsoft and its founder. There have been many, many other companies that have gone through this. Most such actions do not capture the media's sensationalistic attention, but that does not mean that they are less important. AT&T, IBM, and Standard Oil have been among the more visible targets of antitrust actions in the past. > If the statement that Microsoft cheated to get > where they were was nothing more than a claim, then > no evidence would have existed to convict them. And that is precisely the case. They were not convicted of any such thing. The Court found specific violations of the Sherman act in relation to the placement of Microsoft software on OEM machines, and with respect to the installation of Microsoft's browser. It did not find that Microsoft attained the position it holds today through any illegal actions, although it speculates that--in the specific case of browser dominance--Microsoft's violations _may_ have had an influence on the outcome of things. However, my own opinion, which may well be better informed than that of the Court, is that Netscape was so poorly managed, and wrote such poor software, that it was doomed from the beginning. The company was built on hype. It had the first viable browser on the market, but that's the only reason anyone used it--once a better browser was available (and MSIE was a better browser from 3.x forward), it had nothing but inertia to keep it in business. Note that AOL owns Netscape today, but it still uses Microsoft's browser in its own software. That is mainly because MSIE is a superior browser. > They didn't lose some sort of popularity contest > here - they lost a legal court case, a loss that > even survived an appeal by them, in a court where > they had unbelievable opportunity to disprove the > claims, during a trial that was conducted according to > defined and fair rules. You need to read the actual documents in question. You may be surprised. > You seem to forget that in a trial the burden of > proof is on the prosecution, not the defense. One of the first rules of law is to avoid discussing any decision you haven't read. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 8: 7:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95B4C37B416 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:07:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 70936 invoked by uid 100); 1 Dec 2001 16:07:17 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15369.53.739857.967952@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:07:17 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C08A204.3CA7014C@mindspring.com> <002e01c17a5f$f2b34040$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > > I frankly cannot understand this attitude. > The attitude derives from actually examining the facts and reading things like > court decisions, as opposed to jumping on an emotion-powered bandwagon without > bother to think for oneself. I have no intrinsic desire to love or hate > Microsoft; I simply try to see things as they actually are. It is abundantly > clear to even (and perhaps esepcially) Microsoft's competitors that the success > of MS is almost entirely the consequence of sound business decisions, not > illegal or unethical maneuvering. Just for the record, I claim to be unbiased in this case. My political convictions are that antitrust law is in and of itself is a bad thing. On the other hand, I can see where Microsofts business practices have cost me money. > And that is precisely the case. They were not convicted of any such thing. The > Court found specific violations of the Sherman act in relation to the placement > of Microsoft software on OEM machines, and with respect to the installation of > Microsoft's browser. It did not find that Microsoft attained the position it > holds today through any illegal actions, although it speculates that--in the > specific case of browser dominance--Microsoft's violations _may_ have had an > influence on the outcome of things. This is correct. The is correct - in order to violate the Sherman act, you have to exercise monopoly power. If you aren't a monopoly, you can't violate the act. How you got that power isn't discussed at all. In Microsofts case, their basis for their monopoly was telling IBM they had something they didn't, then turning around and buying it from someone else for a fraction of it's real value. That put them in a position of dominance, and they have been using that position illegally ever since. It was their continuing inability to behave in a manner legal for a monopoly that caused the breakup order to be issued. > One of the first rules of law is to avoid discussing any decision you haven't > read. One which I'm following. Terry Lambert types: > > The same claim has been made about every company in history that ever reached a > > position of leadership. Some people just resent the fact that other > > persons/companies are more competent or successful than they are, and cannot > > accept the possibility that the success of the latter could be do to anything > > except some sort of cheating. > Counter examples include: > IBM Won the disk drive market fairly and squarely > instead of by dumping to pu CDC out of the > disk business. And after they won the market, they were found guilty of violating the Sherman act when the started playing shell games with the controller interface. > Standard Oil Owned gas stations not to force all people to > buy only their product, but instead because it > was just good business sense. Which is one of the reasons I find antitrust generally distasteful. It gets applied to companies that are operating in an ethical manner even though they do dominate the industry. > AT&T Controlled the telephone industry, from the > copper mining to the wire ducting to the > manufacture of the chairs in which operators > sat, in order to make the world a better place. > Oh. Wait... I take it you noticed that the government *gave* AT&T that monopoly, right? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 8:59:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E569737B405 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 71653 invoked by uid 100); 1 Dec 2001 16:59:03 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15369.3159.548082.862287@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:59:03 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > All else is seldom, if ever, equal. Once you > > get past "good enough", marketing is more > > important than the technology. In other words, > > the best marketed product that is "good enough" > > will win. > That's because once you get past "good enough," technology doesn't matter > (otherwise it wouldn't be good enough, would it?). That's a one-sentence summary of my "good enough is best" paper. MS is willing to keep trying until they reach "good enough", and has excellent marketing. Their technology is just barely better than "good enough" in almost every category. As such, there's usually better technology available from companies that don't have the marketing smarts that MS has. > > You can't build a reasonable Unix workstation > > using PC parts for PC prices today ... > Why not? A number of things, some of which have already been named. First, to get workstation performance and reliability out of your disk subsystem, you have to buy SCSI, though that is slowly changing. So you have to add the price of a SCSI disk controller and the SCSI disk markup to the cost of the base machine. You don't want one of the winmodems people throw into systems these days. You want a good ethernet card, so jack the price up a bit more. A workstation quality monitor runs $1000 or better, which is what you quoted as the cost of the PC. Finally, you don't want your workstation doing things like rendering bitmaps for the printer, so you need a postscript printer, which jacks the price up another few hundred dollars if you want a printer. As a general rule, Unix gets more use from full-speed cache than Windows (not sure about WNT), and the more the merrier. Finally, and just for grins, it's cheaper to buy a system with Windows installed than it is to buy an identical system without Windows installed thanks to MS's predatory practices. I built my first FreeBSD workstation in '98 just before the PIII arrived. I used workstation quality gear all the way through. I bought a system that supported the latest chips from Intel with full-speed cache, then bought the least expensive version of that chip I could find. I bought an SMP motherboard with one CPU on it, which raised the price somewhat. Add a good SCSI controller, a single SCSI disk, a CDROM burner, a good 10/100 ethernet, and a good 21" monitor. Since it was my first foray into building a Unix system from PC parts, I went through a systems integrator recommended by jkh. The total came to nearly US$6,000, with no printer. Later that year I bought a PC and monitor for about US$600. > > The Apple Lisa predated the Mac, and was a > > much better machine to own. > That was a machine I only heard about, never saw. They demo'd them to my employer when they first announced them. Think of a mac with a better display and a preemptive operating system. Now think of a US$10,000 base price tag. > > My time on Windows was running a machine installed > > by the IT department, with an MCSE. It still crashed > > twice a day, even though I put absolutely nothing > > else on it. and didn't twiddle with it at all. > Your "MCSE" probably installed a buggy driver, if you truly had virtually > nothing running on the machine. I didn't say I had nothing running on it. I said *I* put absolutely nothing on it. They installed MSIE, Netscape, MS Office, and some kind of ftp client. Those where the only things I used. > > XFree86 comes with source. Feel free to port it. > Who will pay me for this? Someone who wants it, which means not me. If you *really* want to display X clients on a Windows desktop, look into VNC. It's free. You run a VNC server on your Unix box, and it provides an X server to connect to. The X server doesn't talk to the hardware on the machine it's running on, so it should run at security level 3, though I haven't tried it. You then run the VNC client on your windows box and connect to the VNC server on your Unix box. The VNC client will open a single window that contains an X session running on the server. All your standard X tools will work, though those that use high-performance extensions probably won't. I know for a fact that fxtv doens't work on a VNC X server. Similarly but going the other way, DirectX doesn't work on a VNC Windows server. What's nice is that you can disconnect the session, and reconnect later and get the same state back. You can even reconnect from a different machine, such as your portable, any java-capable web browser, a Palm, or a Nokia 9000 cell phone > > If you want me to do that, you've got to > > pay for my time. > Sorry, but I understand. And aren't interested in pursuing this on your own, right? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 10:27:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7715C37B419 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a223.otenet.gr [212.205.215.223]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB1IR3m27004; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 20:27:03 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB1IOZG02603; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 20:24:35 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 20:24:35 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011201182435.GC936@hades.hell.gr> References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129115922.GA75539@hades.hell.gr> <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-11-29 20:49:02, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Giorgos writes: > > > Why? > > Because a single-user system does not have the overhead of a multiuser system, > and it is more ergonomic as well. A properly designed multiuser system, should not involve much more overhead than a simple "login" step. I don't think that this is too much to ask, and that it is terribly less 'ergonomic' to use. From a user's point of view, a multiuser system should be identical to a single-user system, except that you are required to 'log into' the system and 'log out of it' when you're done. I think I'm missing your point, or that you did not clearly state it. > > "More applications" for what definition of "more" > > and "applications" ? > > More = larger number, applications = anything that runs under the OS but is not > part of it. The sheer number of applications is not a very important criterion. The level of productivity these applications allow, and how well they get the job done is more important to me. But you are right that there are tons of applications for Windows, so I'll pass this one. Yes, I see your point. > > For what definition of "secure"? > > Not crashing the system. Crashing is relatively unimportant for a single-user system, if it does not result in data loss. And a program may crash in a `secure' way (i.e. without leaving traces of it's running process image, when it crashes, that could probably be used for post-mortem analysis of the crash and reveal sensitive information). You most likely mean 'stable' as someone else has pointed in this thread. > > It needs to do stuff to the system console, that > > the kernel of the OS does not know (or does not > > care about). > > It should not be bypassing the OS. It's probably a fault of the OS that can not 'save the state' of the console, and allow raw access to it, 'restoring its state' when the program that malfunctions crashes. But this 'bypassing' is sometimes advertized as a technological advance in the Windows world too. I'm thinking of DirectX and Direct3D now. The way that X servers 'grab the console' and do nasty things to it has always annoyed me too. But I can't suggest an alternative, and I can't implement something that will allow X to run without doing dirty console hacks, so I tend to avoid using X on my machines :-/ You do have a point here... -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 11: 6: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 755A637B419; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:05:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:05:54 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Mark Yeck Cc: anthony@freebie.atkielski.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011201110554.A27930@FreeBSD.org> References: <020c01c178a1$bea114e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <4237.208.216.115.112.1007183317.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4237.208.216.115.112.1007183317.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu>; from y3k@gti.net on Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 12:08:37AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I disagree. All else being equal, a purpose-built system is always > > superior to a generalized system. > > This is not always true. A popular topic in engineering circles these days > is Design Reuse. There are many advantages to modify a proven system to meet > the requirements of a similar task, or using proven elements of an existing > system in a new system, over designing a purpose built system completely > from scratch. It's sort of a moot point because nt is most definitely NOT "designed from the ground up to be a windowing system". It was intended to be ms's new wonder VMS. After windows had reached some degree of success, ms decided to bring windows and nt together. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 11: 8:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 45A0737B417; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:08:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:08:53 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Anthony Atkielski , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011201110853.B27930@FreeBSD.org> References: <00a801c17a33$02c9e0b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <000201c17a3a$50a70720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000201c17a3a$50a70720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 11:32:22PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > you mean "only for Windows" The little non-Windows software that they write > is > atrocious. I've been using IE for OSX for quite some time, and it seems to work well. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 11:10:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 090C937B405; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:10:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:10:17 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: chip Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libh question Message-ID: <20011201111017.C27930@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011130234957.SM03896@there> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011130234957.SM03896@there>; from chip@wiegand.org on Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 11:49:40PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I was just perusing the ports and found the libh port. It looks interesting. > I am wondering who is using this tool, or if it is even useable yet? It has its own mailing list, freebsd-libh@FreeBSD.org if you'd like to join. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 11:41:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722F837B416 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09AABBD53; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30856; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:41:25 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB1JfhA98084; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:41:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Mark Yeck" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) References: <3C08846C.3C13C71F@mindspring.com> <1542.208.216.126.134.1007217789.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 01 Dec 2001 11:41:42 -0800 In-Reply-To: <1542.208.216.126.134.1007217789.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mark Yeck" writes: > Terry wrote: > > Mark Yeck wrote: > >> > I disagree. All else being equal, a purpose-built system is always > >> > superior to a generalized system. > > Not a big deal, but I didnt actually write this, I responded to it. Also not a big deal, but it was an easy mistake to make since you had earlier snipped off the "Anthony wrote" line that should have been above the "Mark Yeck wrote" line. Fair enough of you to set us straight, tho. Plug -- Some mail readers, like Gnus in Xemacs, color quotes differently for each "voice" so parsing "wrote" and ">" lines is easier (if people don't mess up their quoting too badly). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 12: 3:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7A537B416 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C197BD55; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01157; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:03:22 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB1K3fE98104; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: chip Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: libh question References: <20011130234957.SM03896@there> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 01 Dec 2001 12:03:40 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011130234957.SM03896@there> Message-ID: <7q667qr9lv.67q@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org chip writes: > I was just perusing the ports and found the libh port. It looks interesting. > I am wondering who is using this tool, or if it is even useable yet? You might get a better answer by addressing the project mailing list given on the project web page given in the port's pkg-descr file. freebsd-libh@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 13:22:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from y3k.shacknet.nu (ts5m-pool0-199.gti.net [208.216.126.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319BD37B405 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from shacknet.nu (localhost.gti.net [127.0.0.1]) by y3k.shacknet.nu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fB1LTGY41881; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:29:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from y3k@gti.net) Received: from 208.216.126.199 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mark) by y3k.shacknet.nu with HTTP; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:29:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3231.208.216.126.199.1007242158.squirrel@y3k.shacknet.nu> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:29:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) From: "Mark Yeck" To: swear@blarg.net In-Reply-To: References: Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.0.6) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary wrote: > "Mark Yeck" writes: > >> Terry wrote: >> > Mark Yeck wrote: >> >> > I disagree. All else being equal, a purpose-built system is >> >> > always superior to a generalized system. >> >> Not a big deal, but I didnt actually write this, I responded to it. > > Also not a big deal, but it was an easy mistake to make since you had > earlier snipped off the "Anthony wrote" line that should have been > above the "Mark Yeck wrote" line. Fair enough of you to set us > straight, tho. Indeed. I realized this immediately and will make sure to attribute quotes properly from now on. -mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 13:36:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AE5F37B416 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB1LZhx14223; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:35:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000a01c17ab0$266fabd0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , References: <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com><010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C08A204.3CA7014C@mindspring.com><002e01c17a5f$f2b34040$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com><000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.53.739857.967952@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:35:43 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > On the other hand, I can see where Microsofts > business practices have cost me money. No more so than a jillion other companies. When you buy a recent PC with a genuine Intel processor, for example, you give several hundred dollars of pure profit to Intel. > In Microsofts case, their basis for their monopoly > was telling IBM they had something they didn't, > then turning around and buying it from someone > else for a fraction of it's real value. No, that is ancient history, and no longer has any effect on Microsoft's position today. Apple had much greater advantages at one time, and that didn't prevent it from practically going bankrupt. > That put them in a position of dominance, and > they have been using that position illegally > ever since. No. There is absolutely no way that something that trivial can have more than the most ephemeral effect in the IT industry. Even a huge advantage may mean nothing six months down the road. You have to make good decisions every day, or you lose. Much of the perceived competitiveness of Microsoft comes from their understanding of this reality. You cannot sit on your laurels in IT. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 13:37:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8854C37B416; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a033.otenet.gr [212.205.215.33]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB1Lb3m29652; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:37:04 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB1LFHe10453; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:15:17 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:15:17 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Eric Melville Cc: John Baldwin , Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011201211516.GG6845@hades.hell.gr> References: <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129135556.C90325@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011129135556.C90325@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-11-29 13:55:56, Eric Melville wrote: > > I've watched pieces of this thread, and your arguments are really fairly > > rediculous. You constantly contradict yourself and seem to be on a holy war to > > convince people that Windows is the only viable desktop for anyone in an > > attempt to combat people who say that their pet OS is perfect everywhere. The > > irony is that you are the one proclaiming that your pet OS is perfect on all > > desktops. The real truth which you think you are communicating (but aren't) is > > that different OS's are good in different places. This includes within the > > desktop arena. FreeBSD is a better desktop for me than Windows since I rarely > > play games and spend most of my time either reading mail, hacking code, or > > chatting on IRC. Since the code I'm hacking is the FreeBSD kernel, it is quite > > a bit easier for me to use FreeBSD as my desktop for doing this. > > This is an excellent point which the most everyone seems to miss these > days. I find windows very difficult to use as a desktop. Too much clicking, > and not enough tools. So, for windows being user-friendly, I am a user too, > and I don't find it friendly at all. Amen to that. I find it increasingly difficult to follow all the changes to Windows setup and configuration, despite the relative 'ease of use' of the interface. Using a Unix desktop for the past 8 years, and working with the same tools under the same fvwm2 desktop for more than 4 years, it's kind of difficult for me to switch to something non-Unix for a desktop. I'm probably growing old and unwielding to 'innovation' and it's not the interface that needs to be blamed, but me. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 13:42:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C5237B41B for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB1Lgex14246; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:42:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000f01c17ab1$1ac8c590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org><003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org><005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org><008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.3159.548082.862287@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:42:40 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > [Microsoft's] technology is just barely better than > "good enough" in almost every category. As such, > there's usually better technology available from > companies that don't have the marketing smarts that > MS has. But that doesn't matter. Either something is good enough, or it's not. If it _is_ good enough, then, by definition, you will not profit from anything that is better. For example, if you need three features in a word-processing program, and you find a program with those features, the fact that another program might have ten features makes no difference, because you already have the three you need. Similarly, if you need a batch job to run in no more than two hours each night, and you find hardware that can run it in 1 hour and 59 minutes, you don't need to look for a system that can run it in 30 minutes, because you've already met your requirement of running it in less than two hours. In other words, you cannot say that something is "good enough," and then say that there is still something to be gained from something else. Either it meets requirements, or it doesn't. > And aren't interested in pursuing this on your > own, right? My time is worth money, too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 13:45:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 740F837B416 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 75961 invoked by uid 100); 1 Dec 2001 21:45:29 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15369.20345.689585.495352@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:45:29 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <000a01c17ab0$266fabd0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C08A204.3CA7014C@mindspring.com> <002e01c17a5f$f2b34040$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.53.739857.967952@guru.mired.org> <000a01c17ab0$266fabd0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > On the other hand, I can see where Microsofts > > business practices have cost me money. > No more so than a jillion other companies. When you buy a recent PC with a > genuine Intel processor, for example, you give several hundred dollars of pure > profit to Intel. Yes, but I'm buying Intel products. MS's business practices cost me money even though I *don't* buy their products. > > In Microsofts case, their basis for their monopoly > > was telling IBM they had something they didn't, > > then turning around and buying it from someone > > else for a fraction of it's real value. > No, that is ancient history, and no longer has any effect on Microsoft's > position today. Apple had much greater advantages at one time, and that didn't > prevent it from practically going bankrupt. That's sort of like saying that the spread of Christianity during the middle ages has no influence on it's popularity today. In other words, it's utter hogwash. History creates the present. If IBM had bought the OS outright - which they wanted to do - instead of licensing a version from MS, the IT world would be a completely different place today. > > That put them in a position of dominance, and > > they have been using that position illegally > > ever since. > No. There is absolutely no way that something that trivial can have more than > the most ephemeral effect in the IT industry. Even a huge advantage may mean > nothing six months down the road. You have to make good decisions every day, or > you lose. Much of the perceived competitiveness of Microsoft comes from their > understanding of this reality. You cannot sit on your laurels in IT. Being the default OS on the first desktop computer acceptable to the IT industry is hardly "trivial". I've never argued that MS made bad business decisision. Making sure they - and not IBM - owned the rights to the OS was one of their good decisions. It gave them a position of dominance in the industry. They have continued to make good decisions on a regular enough basis to have not lost that dominance. Not all of their decisions have been good ones, and not all of them have been legal ones. But they've done the right thing more often than their competition, which is why they are still dominant. All of which has absolutely *nothing* to do with the quality of their technology, except that they keep plugging away until they reach "good enough" and then stop, which is a good business decision. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 13:47:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399DE37B405 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB1Lklx14261; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:46:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <001401c17ab1$ae491630$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: References: <15365.11290.211107.464324@guru.mired.org> <006101c17854$c6aa2570$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01112817112006.13219@prime.vsservices.com> <016301c17888$c1be3cc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011129115922.GA75539@hades.hell.gr> <02b101c1790e$e802df90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011201182435.GC936@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:46:48 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > A properly designed multiuser system, should > not involve much more overhead than a simple > "login" step. A multiuser system does not let you implicitly share everything with everyone. One reason why many people have resisted NT in the past is simply that you must log in to the workstation or server. That was the only difference, but it put people off. > But this 'bypassing' is sometimes advertized as > a technological advance in the Windows world > too. I'm thinking of DirectX and Direct3D now. Yes, one of Microsoft's follies. It reminds me of Netscape advertising its "standards-compliant" e-mail servers, which simply means that they stapled together a truckload of public-domain code and called it a product. > You do have a point here... On a secure UNIX system, you should never run an X server on the console, IMO. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 13:56:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4271137B417 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB1LuQx14280; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:56:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002501c17ab3$07f0f0d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , References: <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com><010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C08A204.3CA7014C@mindspring.com><002e01c17a5f$f2b34040$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com><000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15369.53.739857.967952@guru.mired.org><000a01c17ab0$266fabd0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.20345.689585.495352@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:56:25 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Yes, but I'm buying Intel products. MS's business > practices cost me money even though I *don't* buy > their products. And Intel's don't? That's not what Cyrix or AMD would say. > That's sort of like saying that the spread of > Christianity during the middle ages has no influence > on it's popularity today. Windows was a completely different environment from MS-DOS, and initially Apple did windows better than Microsoft. There were many chances for destiny to shift in the direction of some other company, but thanks to good decisions by Microsoft and egregiously poor decisions on the part of certain other companies (such as A****), Microsoft retained the lead. > If IBM had bought the OS outright - which they > wanted to do - instead of licensing a version from MS, > the IT world would be a completely different place > today. If Apple had priced its computers more competitively, the world would also be a very different place today. > Being the default OS on the first desktop computer > acceptable to the IT industry is hardly "trivial". Nobody even remembers CP/M. > They have continued to make good decisions > on a regular enough basis to have not lost > that dominance. In other words, their initial decisions concerning MS-DOS did _not_ determine their success for eternity, in direct contrast to what you assert above. > ... they keep plugging away until they reach > "good enough" and then stop, which is a good > business decision. Just about every company that has ever tried to build the _best_ of anything has either failed or never advanced beyond the size it had in the beginning. Very few people want to pay for the best--which makes perfect sense, since by definition, they will accept "good enough." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 14:29:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [216.90.196.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB32937B41A for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kaila@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA97765 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:29:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:29:40 -0600 (CST) From: Kaila To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: I got bored... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org so I wrote a silly little utility... www.cfm.o-o.org/software/finfo if anyone's interested [ Name : Christine F. Maxwell ] [ ICQ : #45010616 ] [ EMail : cfm@o-o.org ] [ IRC : Kaila ] [ Home : http://www.cfm.o-o.org/ ] [ BBS : http://www.aci.o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 15: 9:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D029037B416 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a033.otenet.gr [212.205.215.33]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB1N9Dm05646; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:09:13 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB1N9Cf11581; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:09:12 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 01:09:10 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. Message-ID: <20011201230910.GC10793@hades.hell.gr> References: <15368.2990.775120.843902@guru.mired.org> <005b01c179f3$e1ffb510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <005b01c179f3$e1ffb510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-01 00:08:10, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mike writes: > > > The hotel guy bought his first computer less > > than a year ago, and has already cancelled > > digital cable TV to get a cable modem instead. > > That's how much he values being able to download > > things from the net. > > Ah ... you're counting alt.binaries.*, then! This is not fair. You are making assumptions about someone you don't know, and are using those assumptions as an argument to support a claim of yours that has long been lost in the thread history. Oh, please... -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 15:59:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7970937B405 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3171 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 23:59:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Dec 2001 23:59:26 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 15:59:27 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Stop Feeding the Troll Please Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I returned to -chat after being away for 2 days and there are about 60 messages in this thread. Sheesh, give it up please. I'm sure there's something productive that could be done instead. :) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 16: 0:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C07A037B405 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB1Nxnx14559; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:59:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003901c17ac4$445c6890$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15368.2990.775120.843902@guru.mired.org> <005b01c179f3$e1ffb510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011201230910.GC10793@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: As usual, I disagree. Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:59:49 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > This is not fair. You are making assumptions > about someone you don't know, and are using those > assumptions as an argument to support a claim > of yours that has long been lost in the thread > history. Which claim is that? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 16:10:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (h24-64-56-135.cg.shawcable.net [24.64.56.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45AA537B417; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:10:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB20ABb19965; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 17:10:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB20ABo47779; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 17:10:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 17:10:11 -0700 From: Chad David To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stop Feeding the Troll Please Message-ID: <20011201171011.A47763@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 03:59:27PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 03:59:27PM -0800, John Baldwin wrote: > I returned to -chat after being away for 2 days and there are about 60 messages > in this thread. Sheesh, give it up please. I'm sure there's something > productive that could be done instead. :) I just sent a pr with a bunch of new section 9 manual pages! If somebody has nothing else to do they could review and commit them :). > > -- > > John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 1 22:21: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E87C37B419 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:21:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id D06F3FC2; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:21:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:21:00 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011202002100.F18351@over-yonder.net> References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org><003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org><005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org><008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.3159.548082.862287@guru.mired.org> <000f01c17ab1$1ac8c590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000f01c17ab1$1ac8c590$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:40PM +0100 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:40PM +0100 I heard the voice of Anthony Atkielski, and lo! it spake thus: > > But that doesn't matter. Either something is good enough, or it's not. If it > _is_ good enough, then, by definition, you will not profit from anything that is > better. Bullkaka. I drive a 1991 Ford Ranger. The stripped down model, with a 4-cylinder engine, manual transmission, no power steering, and no AC. It's "good enough". Sure, I have to downshift on the highway going up hills to stay above 55mph, and sure it's hot as hell during these Mississippi summers, and sure it's hard to make tight turns when I'm not moving, and sure it guzzles gas above about 58mph, but it's "good enough". It gets me from Point A to Point B. That doesn't mean that "better" would not be "better". Suitability is not a binary proposition. > For example, if you need three features in a word-processing program, and you > find a program with those features, the fact that another program might have ten > features makes no difference, because you already have the three you need. So, in other words, you have no desire to make any task any easier/quicker/more efficient than the absolute bare minimum you can concieve at the moment. I use vi. I use about a tenth of its features. But from time to time, I come across one I didn't know about, and when I start using it, it adds ot my experience by giving me previously unused power and flexibility. Is that a waste, because I didn't use, say, :E, for years? > In other words, you cannot say that something is "good enough," and then say > that there is still something to be gained from something else. Either it meets > requirements, or it doesn't. See above mentioned "Bullkaka". Would you rather drive a Ford Focus, or a BMW 750? Focus is 'good enough', isn't it? Why would anybody want to drive a BMW? And in another mail: > On a secure UNIX system, you should never run an X server on the console, > IMO. I run X on my workstation. Doesn't make it any more 'insecure' than otherwise. My running X doesn't let you break into my box any more easily. It doesn't allow you to corrupt or remove my data, it doesn't allow you elevated access, it doesn't allow you ANYTHING you couldn't do without X running. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message