From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 18:23:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2B32B3FF3 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:23:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at50-2.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at50-2.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496Bly6W0rz3KSl for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:23:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at50.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQxTL-000APr-Kz for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:18:15 +0200 Received: from t61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id VWJF2200i4YLlkt0BWJFLc; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:18:15 +0200 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=OA2lqS22AAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=wmWLsycGanVPlof76PMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=047cQLXTEfCjWPUe_kQW:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:19:44 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202004212019.44588.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496Bly6W0rz3KSl X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.137 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.994,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 62.179.0.0/17(0.93), asn: 6830(3.69), country: AT(-0.10)]; FORGED_MUA_KMAIL_MSGID(3.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[137.121.179.62.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:23:59 -0000 Anno domini 17:43:01 Tue, 21 Apr 2020 +0000 (UTC) Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questions scripsit: > :D=C2=A0 I love it when I see reactions to problems like this on FreeBSD= =2E... :D > Personally, I see a need for an alternative weighing though.=C2=A0 There = are a HUGE amount of apps that make use of X.=C2=A0 Here's my thought:=C2= =A0 Can Xorg learn from Wayland?=C2=A0 Could they, as a stop gap measure, i= mplement a compositor similar to Wayland's method?=C2=A0 Enhance communicat= ions via a default TLS methodology that can be imbedded in all X communicat= ions? > Don't get me wrong, I believe X is archaic and has been patched constantl= y to 'enhance' functionality or close security issues and it should be repl= aced. > However, all functionality needs to stay intact and I would think that th= ere could be some type of shim that allows existing programs to be compiled= as they always have for X and it just translates to Wayland's APIs.=C2=A0 = If Wayland can offset the speed loss of the shim with its speed enhancement= s, it should be invisible to the user. If I recall correctly, the Xorg of OpenBSD has all security problems of ori= ginal Xorg patched, and that for quite some time. Only nobody seams to be i= nterested. Nik >=20 > Am I making sense?=C2=A0 ( I believe this is what I'm seeing below ) >=20 > Paul >=20 > On Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 1:30:23 PM EDT, Robert Huff wrote: =20 > =20 > =20 > Polytropon writes: >=20 > >=C2=A0 On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > >=C2=A0 > On 20 Apr 2020, at 02:24, Ihor Antonov w= rote: > >=C2=A0 > > But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting = X11 > >=C2=A0 >=20 > >=C2=A0 > Perhaps. A tiny percentage. The rest will continue as they are = now, > >=C2=A0 > avoiding X11 at all costs because it is insecure bloat that > >=C2=A0 > interferes with the desired operation of the machine. > >=C2=A0=20 > >=C2=A0 Depends. If Wayland can offer all features that X11 offers at > >=C2=A0 the moment, there will probably be no major problem in transition. >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Speaking only for myself (though I think there are a _= lot_ of > folks who would agree): I have no particular loyalty to X.=C2=A0 If there= 's > an alternative that's faster/more secure/easier to {install, maintain, > upgrade}/[other unspecified benefits] ... what the are we > waiting for?=C2=A0 Can I be a lab rat? > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _If_. > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What I _think_ I'm hearing is "Wayland is a better sol= ution that > isn't ready yet.=C2=A0 Not fully integrated with FreeBSD; not even ready = in > the (current) Platonic ideal." > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Am I wrong? > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also: if I understand the conversation, Wayland works = OK when > client and server are the same machine, but not over a network? >=20 >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Opportunisticall= y, >=20 >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Robert Huff > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" > =20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" >=20 =2D-=20 Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing w= ith the NSA, CIA ...