Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:11:11 -0700 From: "Jason S. Anderson" <jason.anderson@windriver.com> To: Bill Moran <wmoran@iowna.com> Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010622174719.032350c0@mail.wrs.com> In-Reply-To: <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org>
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Hi Bill (et al),
I just thought I would comment briefly on some of your concerns, given
that I work with Pauline here at Wind River and know some of the details of
the intention of the message you received. As we know from previous
discussions, part of the BSDi acquisition included FreeBSDMall including
its existing customer base and subscriptions which WRS has a responsibility
to service and support (both now and long-term). We've been working hard to
integrate the two companies and to transition shipping/order fulfillment
functions, but as with most integrations this is not a straightforward affair.
Over the past couple of weeks we've received several phone calls from
customers looking for status information about their orders. We knew there
was a need to communicate with the FreeBSDMall customers, but we didn't
want to do it in a way that would be interpreted as spamming or otherwise
abusing the freebsd-* mailing lists...hence the FreeBSDMall customer list.
Please believe me when I say that no offense or spamming was intended;
we simply felt a need to let our customers know that there were was this
acquisition change at FreeBSDMall which may have caused a temporary
disruption to some shipments. It shouldn't be construed as the beginning of
a trend, or an effort to distribute advertising.
Feel free to use the ordertracking@windriver.com address if you wish to
be removed from the customer list; I'm sure the support team would be happy
to assist. Also, there are many people at Wind (such as myself) who are
trying to keep up with the mailing lists to better understand how we can
work together, so you can also use these forums if there are things of
broader interest. I'm happy to answer other questions as well.
Best regards,
-Jason
At 08:23 PM 6/22/01 -0400, Bill Moran wrote:
>Mike Meyer wrote:
> >
> > [Moved from -questions to -chat.]
>
>Honored.
>
> > Bill Moran <wmoran@iowna.com> types:
> > > First off, the message technically falls into the UBE category, since I
> > > never opted-in to receive general messages from Windriver, or
> > > FreeBSDMall (which is what the message is about).
> >
> > UBE? Not UCE? In any case, it looks like they were sending it to their
> > customers: people they have a previous relationship with. Most of the
> > anti-direct-marketing laws I'm familiar with provide that
> > loophole.
>
>UBE, meaning Unsolicited Bulk Email.
>They're not sending it to their customers. They're sending it to
>customers of FreeBSDMall.
>I have no intereste in the embedded systems they provide. It isn't part
>of the business I do, and I don't see it becomming part of that business
>in the forseeable futuer.
>Now, I can see that this becomes a grey area. FreeBSDMall is now part of
>Windriver, and I'm a FreeBSDMall customer, therefore, a Windriver
>customer. But, it's like Chrysler advertising industrial electric motors
>to me because I own a Chrysler car. Not the same business at all.
>Even beyond the fact that I'm easily pissed off (and I am, and I'm aware
>of it) it's simply bad business what they've done here.
>
> > Just because you get email sent to a list of people that you didn't
> > opt to be on doesn't mean you got spammed. Even if it's business
> > mail. Sure, it's a form letter. But it was sent to an existing
> > customer - didn't it have your proper name on it, not just an email
> > address? The reply address works. It went direct from a machine owned
> > by Wind River - a bsdi machine - to my mail hub. It's target at people
> > who are - or were - interested in FreeBSD. None of the things that
> > characterize spam are there, except that you didn't ask for it, and
> > it's from a business.
>
>Hiding the email address and originating server are not requirements of
>spam, they're symptoms of it. An email doesn't have to be forged in
>three different ways to be qualified as spam.
>
> > It's the same kind of thing as an uncle of mine who added me to his
> > alias to forward jokes the first time he's seen them - never mind I
> > saw most of them when they were posted to rec.humor.funny in the
> > '80s. Since I like him, I tend to just delete them. For businesses -
> > and almost everyone who does business on the web does this kind of
> > thing - I add a filter to my .qmail file so they get bounces. For
> > spam, I complain about it. Always.
>
>That's my point. I think I should complain about this. However, I don't
>know the details of the relationship between Windriver and the FreeBSD
>project. Considering how much I depend on FreeBSD (I *really* depend on
>FreeBSD) I would prefer to complain in a way that improves that
>relationship.
>
> > > Secondly, the return address is "FreeBSDCustomerRelations@windriver.com"
> > > which seems a little odd to me. Since when is Windriver in charge of
> > > FreeBSD Customer Relations? Technically, are they anything other than
> > > another supporter of the project?
> >
> > I think that technically, you've got it. On the other hand, they now
> > sell - well, they own a company that sells - a product that's called
> > FreeBSD. Having a maildrop for dealing with customers of that product
> > isn't unreasonable. It's sort of like if Corel had a
> > linuxcustomerrelations@corel.com, for dealing with the linux
> > distribution they sell and/or give away.
>
>I suppose. I'll concede that I badly over-reacted on that point.
>
> > > The email then goes on to say "Wind River picked up two software product
> > > lines from BSDi: the proprietary BSD/OS and the open-source FreeBSD."
> > > While the email later explains that Windriver does not (and can not)
> > > _own_ FreeBSD, the intial sentence seems rather ominous.
> >
> > There statement is true. Walnut Creek initiated a software product
> > line around FreeBSD: subscriptions, 4-disk releases, the complete
> > package, and the desktop package. That's all software, and it
> > certainly looks like a product line to me. BSDi acquired that product
> > line with Walnut Creek, and Wind River got it with BSDi.
>
>They they should have said "Wind River has acquired the BSD/OS operating
>system, as well as the distribution channels for the open-source OS,
>FreeBSD." Small point, maybe, but it's definately more accurate.
>
> > > The fact that they've attached the rest as a "rider" is what I'm
> > > objecting to, I suppose.
> >
> > That's no worse than Walnut Creek - and then BSDi - throwing catalogs
> > in with every thing I order from them. I even wind up paying shipping
> > with all of it. It sure beats what happened with 4.2, when some
> > unknown percentage of people didn't get theirs, and didn't get any
> > notification unless they called to ask about it.
>
>No, it's worse for the same reason that email spam is worse than
>snail-mail spam.
>I seriously doubt if your shipping costs are modified by the inclusion
>of a few promotional materials.
>
> > > Maybe I'm over-reacting a lot with regard to this subject, but it sure
> > > looks like Windriver has compromised FreeBSDMall's contact information
> > > to spam me, and hidden a brief FreeBSDMall message inside the spam to
> > > make it seem legitimate.
> >
> > I think you're over-reacting. From the evidence I have, FreeBSDMall is
> > now owned by Wind River. Since they own the contact list, they can't
> > really compromise it.
>
>This falls into the same category as "I gave my email to www.foo.com
>under a certain privacy agreement that stated they would keep my
>information private. foo.com was bought out by bar.com, who uses a
>different privacy agreement and has no problem selling their list to
>other advertisers." Basically, I gave my email addy to FreeBSDMall
>strictly for the purpose of being notified of my order status. Now
>they're using it to advertise other product lines. I still have a
>problem.
>
> > This company that was distributing FreeBSD
> > distributions is under new management. That generally means new
> > practices, some of which you may not like.
>
>Yes, and here we are.
>
> > If that's the case, try sending a polite request in reply to the mail
> > asking that they take you off whatever list they're using. If they
> > refuse, then it's time to get upset.
>
>Once again, I intend to, I just wanted to get a feel for what other
>people thought before I responded. With other spammers my emails read
>"See that this is stopped immediately. Another incident like this and
>I'll block your mail servers."
>
>Hmmm ... more thinking to do on this topic, I suppose.
>
>--
>If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush,
>then what can I get for two hands in the bush?
>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Anderson email: jason.anderson@windriver.com
Manager, Platforms Operations Programs ph: 510-749-2202
Manager, FreeBSD Engineering fax: 510-749-2010
Wind River cell: 510-708-3588
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