Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:57:43 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org> To: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com> Cc: Stephen McKay <mckay@thehub.com.au>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror)) Message-ID: <20011022105743.B18153@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 12:47:01PM -0700 References: <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <1003617187.3bd1fba3d31ff@webmail.neomedia.it> <4.3.2.7.2.20011020213927.048a1780@localhost> <200110211547.f9LFlIB27704@dungeon.home> <3BD32635.EC54F003@mindspring.com>
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On Sunday, 21 October 2001 at 12:47:01 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Stephen McKay wrote: >>> Oh? And what "atrocities" have Jews "contined to commit" in the name >>> of their religion? > > My first candidate for atrocity in answer to this was "continuing > failure to convert to Islam"... > >> Well, for a start, the Israeli Government's policy of assassinating >> Palestinians it doesn't like. I really can't understand how their >> politicians can get up on TV and complain about Palestinian terrorism >> as if they don't use exactly the same methods themselves. >> >> Or are you suggesting they do this purely secularly, without religious >> connotations? That's a subtle point in these times. > > After the celebrations in the streets of the West bank following the > events of September 11th, I think you will find this a hard sell. You mean the stunt put on for the press? What makes you think that that's the general opinion in the Middle East? > Before September 11th, it was possible to have sympathy for these > people; now it is no longer possible. Because now the Americans have been hurt, and not only lots of people over there who don't count because they believe in a different religion? > Looking at the Israeli/Palestinian situation from outside, it's > really hard to understand what it is the Palestinians hope to > achieve. For a certain definition of "outside", you're obviously correct. I'd like to know that definition, though. These people lived in this country for over a thousand years. The British occupied the country and then gave part of it to immigrants. They fought and lost. Does that make them vermin? > It's clear they want self rule. I don't think anyone objects to > that -- the problem is _where_ they want it: in land lost to them in > war. Wasn't that what the Israelis wanted when they returned to Palestine? Why should their cause be right and that of the Palestinians be wrong? (Wrong answer: "because God said they should"). > Not even the "most noble" of cultures imaginable has historically > been willing to return the spoils of war, particularly to when it is > the aggressor nation who lost. The U.S. wasn't interfering with > Afghani I wonder when people will understand that "Afghani" is a unit of currency. I think you intended "Afghan". > self rule, until very recently, even though they were implementing > the policies of historical revisionism, destruction of women's > sufferage, denial of education to women (15% of Afghani women are > literate, as opposed to 47% of Afghani men), and other acts which > the general U.S. population finds incredibly oppressive of their own > people. In other words, they have an oppressive regime which the > U.S. nonetheless recognized their right to have. Yes, this is in the charter of the United Nations. The US was an uninvolved party. > If the complaint is that the Israelis punish the group when an > individual transgresses... I completely understand that policy: the > U.S. might have been able to avoid the September 11th events, had it > adopted a similar policy earlier. But isn't this what the Palestinians are trying too, with what methods are available to them? Again, you're being very selective in your allowance of this behaviour. > If the complaint is that they react to stone-throwing by children > with deadly force... I completely understand that policy, too: Of course, because they're Palestinian children. > I think most people in the West see the correct reaction to > Palestinians is to say "you lost; get over it, quit whining, and go > on with your lives; if you don't like it, as Israeli citizens, you > get to elect representatives, so elect people who will do what you > want". That may be correct, but what right have people in the West to dictate what happens to the Palestinians? If you had been born in 1910, would you have written something similar in 1938 about how these horrible Jews were being treated in Germany? I'm sure you'll come out and say "but that's nothing like the same thing". Explain the principles (not the details) why not. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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