From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 7 05:12:14 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D187716A41F for ; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 05:12:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@mail.gbch.net) Received: from gw.gbch.net (gw.gbch.net [203.143.238.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC20543D48 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 05:12:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@mail.gbch.net) Received: (qmail 5403 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2005 15:12:06 +1000 Received: from iliad.gbch.net (172.16.1.9) by gw.gbch.net with SMTP; 7 Oct 2005 15:12:06 +1000 Received: (qmail 48924 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Oct 2005 15:12:05 +1000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 15:12:04 +1000 From: Greg Black To: Kris Kennaway References: <43455D3E.5040007@mbnet.fi> <20051006204336.GA36557@neptune.atopia.net> <20051006213326.GA33286@xor.obsecurity.org> <20051006213740.GA37835@neptune.atopia.net> <20051006214904.GB33546@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20051006214904.GB33546@xor.obsecurity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i; gjb-muttsend.sh 1.7 2004-10-05 X-Uptime: 112 days X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE i386 X-Location: Brisbane, Australia; 27.49841S 152.98439E X-URL: http://www.gbch.net/gjb.html X-Blog: http://www.gbch.net/gjb/blog/ X-Image-URL: http://www.gbch.net/gjb/gjb-auug048.gif X-PGP-Key-Fingerprint: EBB2 2A92 A79D 1533 AC00 3C46 5D83 B6FB 4B04 B7D6 X-Request-PGP: http://www.gbch.net/keys/4B04B7D6.asc Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD-webpage X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 05:12:15 -0000 This belongs on freebsd-www; reply-to set accordingly. On 2005-10-06, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 05:37:40PM -0400, Dan Ponte wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 05:33:26PM -0400, Kris Kennaway was witnessed plotting the following conspiracy: >>> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 04:43:36PM -0400, Dan Ponte wrote: >>> >>>> I second that all the way. Personally, I feel that the FreeBSD project >>>> is doing too much in the way of appearing "trendy" to attract new users, >>>> and it's at the expense of its existing userbase. Not to mention that >>>> the old site rendered perfectly in elinks, while the new one is a mess >>>> (scrolling all over the place). >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your opinion, but you forgot to explain how a new >>> website will make existing FreeBSD users stop using the operating >>> system. What an absurd way to read what he wrote. Clearly he meant that the reduction in usability of the new site is at the expense of the existing userbase which has come to expect certain things from the site. He said nothing about people leaving and you're just trolling with the above statement. >> I should have worded that differently. By "expense" I didn't mean that >> the existing userbase would shrink, but, rather, it would be at a >> disadvantage to it. Though, I don't think that anyone would have truly >> seen it as the former. Nobody who wanted to play fair would have seen it like that. > If you think the new design truly puts you at some kind of > disadvantage, you should formulate constructive ideas for how to fix > that. The problems with the new design have been widely canvassed on the freebsd-www list, where the discussion belongs. Unfortunately, that list is inhabited by a bunch of apologists for the new design who seem to be mainly interested in shouting down the people who have raised legitimate concerns; or if that fails, in belittling them. To list the most critical issues: * Many important navigation links (e.g., the Handbook, the Ports) disappeared from the front page. * The user interface design is dreadful (e.g., fixed sizes for things that cause all kinds of breakage when windows are resized or font sizes changed to suit the reader). * Really boring junk has replaced real content on the front page (e.g., lengthy list of new committers under the heading of "news"). Anyway, rather than protesting that the new thing is wonderful and continually demanding "constructive" criticism from people who are offering just that, why not listen to the suggestions and see how to improve things? For years, I've been sending people to the FreeBSD site to get information and help -- universally, I've had excellent feedback from all kinds of users about the value and ease of use of the site. The claims that the old site was too hard to use that have been advanced as the main reason for the update just don't hold water, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, I see that the people in charge will do whatever they want and it will be up to the rest of us to make the best of it. At least this lack of responsiveness means that I can feel OK about unsubscribing from the noise on freebsd-www, since being there will clearly accomplish nothing. Greg