From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 4:27:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0493156ED for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 04:26:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10REeD-000MJy-0C; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:26:38 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA01079; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:26:31 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id MAA05117; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:36:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:36:37 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We're not that different Message-ID: <19990328123636.H264@marder-1.localhost> References: <19990327192324.C53452@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990327192324.C53452@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 07:23:24PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [moved to -chat] > > On Thursday, 25 March 1999 at 17:24:15 -0000, paul@originative.co.uk wrote: > > This is probably asking for trouble since it's not even remotely FreeBSD > > related (then again it sort of is, see points below). Some of you may have > > seen it but a little light relief is a good thing at times :-) > > >>> Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a > >>> light bulb? > >>> > >>> A: 1,343 > >>> > >>> 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the > >>> light bulb has been changed; > >>> > >>> 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how > >>> the light bulb could have been changed differently; > >>> [..... rest of answer snipped] ROFL :-) I love it. This has just displaced the Pentium designers as one of my all time favourite top three Light bulb changers (it's going to take me a while to memorize it though ;-) ). FWIW, the other 2 are: How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb? Two. One to turn the kangaroo and the other to fill the bath-tub with brightly coloured machine tools How many Social Workers does it take to change a light bulb? None, but it takes 15 to write a paper entitled "Coping with darkness". -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 4:27:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D86156EA for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 04:26:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10REe9-0005sd-0B; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:26:34 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA01073; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:26:03 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id MAA05057; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:17:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:17:46 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI') Message-ID: <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 11:05:47AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 11:05:47AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 26 March 1999 at 13:18:06 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: > >> > >> On 25 Mar, Wes Peters wrote: > >>> > >>> Hey, that's ME they're talking about there... > > > > Ah, so it was you in the picture that Greg Lehey posted a few days ago > > (in the thread about dressing up in Daemon costumes) ;-) > > Nope, as I said, that one was a core team member. Ah yes, so you did. I didn't have your e-mail to hand when I replied to Wes. > And nobody has come up with who he might be. > Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 4:46:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94FF15285 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 04:46:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-072.thuntek.net [207.66.52.72]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id FAA26380; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 05:46:01 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FE2400.76272225@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 05:43:44 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Benson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Working in the IT Field - Trials and Tribulations References: <000001be78e9$294a4980$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Benson wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 12:07:03AM -0500, Brad Benson wrote: > > > You said before the network isn't connected to the Internet. If it's a > > > closed system you shouldn't have to worry a lot about your > > security on the > > > NT box. Unless you have some skilled and disgruntled employees. > > I would make > > > > What's that statistic again about the percentage of security incidents > > that come from the inside? > > I don't know about the statistics. I can say that the biggest security > issues I've had, in the companies I've done work for, had little to do with > the OS. Employees working on these closed networks often take security as a > joke. I can't count the times I've gone into a company where most employees > new the root or admin password. I used to do a lot of work with NetWare and > it was even worse. People would setup a network and just give every user > supervisory rights. It doesn't matter how tight the OS is if everyone has > the password, or no one setup the security right in the first place. I'd put > money on the fact that any statistic on internal security has a lot to do > with this type of problem. > I've worked at companies that _were_ connected to the Internet where the CEO insisted we take passwords _off_ all the W95 clients so he could do his employees' work himself or snoop theirs. One wanted to kill the server passwords, too, but I drew the line... =8-O Actually, SOftware magazine had a security article a while back ( ~9 months ) and I think the percentage was around 90% for _internal_ sabotage. CEO's don't like to know there are ramifications for screwing their employees. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 10: 9: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871B11564D for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:09:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.42]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA12025; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:05:38 -0500 Message-ID: <36FE5AAC.38E791D3@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:37:00 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jay Sachs Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: any sign of these books? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Sachs wrote: > > A friend has asked me to help him locate a copy of the following: > > 1. UNIX User's Reference Manual (URM) 4.3 Berleley Software > Distribution Virtual VAX-11 Version, April 1986 > > 2. A Fast File System for UNIX, UNIX System Manager's Manual (SMM) 4.3 > Berkeley Software Distribution Virtual VAX-11 Version, April 1986 > Maybe ... /usr/share/doc/smm/05.fastfs > Anyone have ideas where I might find them? > Look in gatekeeper.dec.com, the 4.4BSD Manuals (from Oreilly?) might also have something. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 14:30:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8991C14C29 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:30:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 1783 invoked by alias); 28 Mar 1999 22:30:31 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 1763 invoked by uid 0); 28 Mar 1999 22:30:31 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 28 Mar 1999 22:30:31 -0000 Message-ID: <36FEAD80.8667A3CB@uswest.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:30:24 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Jay Sachs , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: any sign of these books? References: <36FE5AAC.38E791D3@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > Jay Sachs wrote: > > > > A friend has asked me to help him locate a copy of the following: > > > > 1. UNIX User's Reference Manual (URM) 4.3 Berleley Software > > Distribution Virtual VAX-11 Version, April 1986 > > > > 2. A Fast File System for UNIX, UNIX System Manager's Manual (SMM) 4.3 > > Berkeley Software Distribution Virtual VAX-11 Version, April 1986 > > > Maybe ... > /usr/share/doc/smm/05.fastfs > > > Anyone have ideas where I might find them? > > > > Look in gatekeeper.dec.com, the 4.4BSD Manuals (from Oreilly?) might > also have something. If they have ISBNs almost any bookstore can order them for you. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey availble To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 16: 5:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669DF154C2 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:05:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA21416; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:34:55 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA06438; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:34:54 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:34:54 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI') References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost>; from Mark Ovens on Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 12:17:46PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 28 March 1999 at 12:17:46 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 11:05:47AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Friday, 26 March 1999 at 13:18:06 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >>> Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: >>>> >>>> On 25 Mar, Wes Peters wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hey, that's ME they're talking about there... >>> >>> Ah, so it was you in the picture that Greg Lehey posted a few days ago >>> (in the thread about dressing up in Daemon costumes) ;-) >> >> Nope, as I said, that one was a core team member. > > Ah yes, so you did. I didn't have your e-mail to hand when I replied > to Wes. > >> And nobody has come up with who he might be. >> > > Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? It's a quiz. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 16:17:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from limbo.rtfm.net (limbo.rtfm.net [216.44.71.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04709156DB for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:17:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nathan@limbo.rtfm.net) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by limbo.rtfm.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA87033 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:16:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nathan) Message-ID: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:16:02 -0500 From: Nathan Dorfman To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: tattoos? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else will have to do it. :-) -- Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching train." --/usr/games/fortune To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 17:30:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBEEF153E1 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA01398 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:30:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10RQrO-000WyWC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:29:02 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Chuck is cute Date: 29 Mar 1999 03:28:59 +0200 Message-ID: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I spent Saturday at the "Journées du Libre" (Free Software Days) at Strasbourg. Organized by the local Linux user group, the event was mostly concerned with Linux. So I brought my daemon plushie along (the 30cm one you can order from www.freibergnet.de). This proved to be a great way to break the ice, people were instantly smitten by Chuck's inherent cuteness. On a somewhat related note, ScotGold Products from Scotland sell 25x25mm daemon badges that you can stick on your PC. However, as far as I can figure from their website, the minimum order is 250, which is a tad more than I expect to need anytime soon. Are these available anywhere (preferably in Europe) in more reasonable quantities, say a strip of 10 or so? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de 100+ SF Book Reviews: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 19:29:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D722615743 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:29:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-054.thuntek.net [207.66.52.54]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id UAA29917; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:29:14 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FEF2F9.66342DD6@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:26:49 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nathan Dorfman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, we could do transfers... First guy to suggest it. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 20:11:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8975014E62 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id BB82D34E7; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:07:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:07:37 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Nocturne Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Jay Sachs , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: any sign of these books? In-Reply-To: <36FEAD80.8667A3CB@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not if they're out of print, they can't! On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Nocturne wrote: > Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:30:24 -0800 > From: Nocturne > To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" > Cc: Jay Sachs , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: any sign of these books? > > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > > Jay Sachs wrote: > > > > > If they have ISBNs almost any bookstore can order them for you. > > -- > dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the > gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world > ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a > DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey availble > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 20:16:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EE214E62 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: from bb-b1-11a (ppp68.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.68]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA13099; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:14:18 -0800 () From: Rick Hamell To: Eric Wayte Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: any sign of these books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@dsinw.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Not if they're out of print, they can't! > > > > If they have ISBNs almost any bookstore can order them for you. Yes they can. They'll just find them in the used section. www.powells.com specializes in out-of-print books, especially technical ones. www.amazon.com may have it in stock too, though they tend to tell you they have it then tell you it's backordered for weeks at a time. www.mx-bookfinder.com searches about 10 used book stores all at the same time. Optionally, any small local bookstore that specializes in rare books will have access to the bookfinder network. It tends to be a tad bit more expensive going that way but 90% of the time they have it. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 20:40:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0261C14D30 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA23669 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:39:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:39:53 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone want ESR's job? :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.netaxs.com/~esr/writings/take-my-job-please.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 20:58:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rascal.honk.org (cr523413-a.wlfdle1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.177.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C9514CD3; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:58:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mpoulin@rascal.honk.org) Received: from localhost (mpoulin@localhost) by rascal.honk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA20584; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:01:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mpoulin@rascal.honk.org) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:01:43 -0500 (EST) From: Marty Poulin To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990326213540.008f2c90@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > Interesting. I received your message right after I spent considerable time > at a place that compares various window managers (got there through a link > from FreeBSD.org). I was going to download KDE, but came up on another > stumbling point: Just which of the gadzillion files do I need. Boy, do I > hate ftp! Just a list of file names with no description. Have you taken a look at the ports collection? There is a "metaport" that installs everything you need for KDE in there - it's what I used and it worked quite well. > But back to the topic of desktop managers like KDE. Does all X software run > under all of them, or do you have to have different software (I mean > applications) for, say, KDE and afterstep? I got the impression from KDE > web site that applications must be written specifically for KDE... No, no. Any software written for X will run in X, regardless of the window manager. There are applications written specifically for KDE which will only run under KDE, but you can run any X application in KDE or afterstep or FVWM... that's the whole nature of X. ================== Quote of the Day ===================== What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog. - Dwight D. Eisenhower To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 22: 1:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [208.138.36.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CDA31543E for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:01:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id WAA45725; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:00:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:00:54 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Nathan Dorfman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? Message-ID: <19990328220054.B45528@001101.zer0.org> References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net>; from Nathan Dorfman on Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > > Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else > will have to do it. :-) Based on my personal survey, I imagine there are many more people out there with Beastie tattoos than with penguins. I know, in completely separate contexts, three people with Beastie tats. One has Lasseter's beastie (from the cover of the "Design and Implementation" books), one Tatsumi's walking beastie, and one an original(?) 4BSD beastie (the one that was originally drawn with his fork poking a Unix balloon). I know nobody with a Linux tattoo. Now _that_ would be an interesting statistic: the date when Linux gains enough "cool" momentum to make the number of Tux tats greater than the number of beastie tats... too bad data for that are so hard to come by. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Failing sardine factory cans employees! mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 22:19:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4ECC5152D9 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 57940 invoked by uid 1000); 29 Mar 1999 06:19:04 -0000 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:19:04 +0200 From: Andreas Braukmann To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Message-ID: <19990329081904.A57680@paert.tse-online.de> References: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 03:28:59AM +0200 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 03:28:59AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > On a somewhat related note, ScotGold Products from Scotland sell 25x25mm > daemon badges that you can stick on your PC. yes. They are really nice. > However, as far as I can > figure from their website, the minimum order is 250, which is a tad more > than I expect to need anytime soon. Hmmm. I ordered 25 of them and got them a few days ago. I found several 'Daemon Badge'-Packs in the online-catalogue's 'daemon badges' category: http://www.net800.co.uk/netstart/scotgold/cgi-bin/search.pl Daemon Badge (Pack 3) Pack of 25 Daemon badges. £ 8.75 > Are these available anywhere > (preferably in Europe) in more reasonable quantities, say a strip of 10 > or so? There was even a pack of 10 available. -Andreas -- : TSE TeleService GmbH : Gsf: Arne Reuter : : : Hovestrasse 14 : Andreas Braukmann : We do it with : : D-48351 Everswinkel : HRB: 1430, AG WAF : FreeBSD/SMP : :--------------------------------------------------------------------: : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 22:58:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E62115052 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10RVzX-000IZY-0C; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:57:47 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA01432; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:57:25 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA01280; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:57:23 +0100 Message-ID: <36FF242F.EB42C9C8@uk.radan.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:56:48 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Chuck is cute References: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > I spent Saturday at the "Journes du Libre" (Free Software Days) at > Strasbourg. Organized by the local Linux user group, the event was > mostly concerned with Linux. So I brought my daemon plushie along (the > 30cm one you can order from www.freibergnet.de). This proved to be a > great way to break the ice, people were instantly smitten by Chuck's > inherent cuteness. > That Website appears to be only in German, do you know if there's an English language site that sells those plushies? > On a somewhat related note, ScotGold Products from Scotland sell 25x25mm > daemon badges that you can stick on your PC. However, as far as I can > figure from their website, the minimum order is 250, which is a tad more > than I expect to need anytime soon. Are these available anywhere > (preferably in Europe) in more reasonable quantities, say a strip of 10 > or so? > I think you've mis-read the Website. The 250 minimum order refers to *customized* PC badges (http://www.scotgold.com/Prices.htm) . There standard range are available singly, take a look at http://www.scotgold.com/Daemon.htm , 35p each for *upto* 499 badges. HTH > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > 100+ SF Book Reviews: > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 5:38:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C4D151E5 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:38:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id D98D1348D; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:34:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:34:47 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Mark Ovens Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Chuck is cute In-Reply-To: <36FF242F.EB42C9C8@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The FreeBSD mall (www.freebsdmall.com) has just added the plushies to their extensive line of merchandise. Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:56:48 +0100 > From: Mark Ovens > To: Christian Weisgerber > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Chuck is cute > > Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > > I spent Saturday at the "Journes du Libre" (Free Software Days) at > > Strasbourg. Organized by the local Linux user group, the event was > > mostly concerned with Linux. So I brought my daemon plushie along (the > > 30cm one you can order from www.freibergnet.de). This proved to be a > > great way to break the ice, people were instantly smitten by Chuck's > > inherent cuteness. > > > > That Website appears to be only in German, do you know if there's an > English language site that sells those plushies? > > > On a somewhat related note, ScotGold Products from Scotland sell 25x25mm > > daemon badges that you can stick on your PC. However, as far as I can > > figure from their website, the minimum order is 250, which is a tad more > > than I expect to need anytime soon. Are these available anywhere > > (preferably in Europe) in more reasonable quantities, say a strip of 10 > > or so? > > > > I think you've mis-read the Website. The 250 minimum order refers to > *customized* PC badges (http://www.scotgold.com/Prices.htm) . There > standard range are available singly, take a look at > http://www.scotgold.com/Daemon.htm , 35p each for *upto* 499 badges. > > HTH > > > > -- > > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > > 100+ SF Book Reviews: > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 6:26:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rascal.honk.org (cr523413-a.wlfdle1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.177.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DBD61535F; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:26:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mpoulin@rascal.honk.org) Received: from localhost (mpoulin@localhost) by rascal.honk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21108; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:30:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mpoulin@rascal.honk.org) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:30:15 -0500 (EST) From: Marty Poulin To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <36FF0B8E.D1B051B1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Ryan A. Carris wrote: > I personsally prefer Windowmaker. > It uses much less memory and looks a lot less windowish. > > > Ryan A. Carris > racarris@earthlink.net > I used to think that KDE looked too much like windows also, until I discovered their desktop themes. Now my KDE looks more like Enlightenment than windows. ================== Quote of the Day ===================== The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one.-Albert Einstein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 7: 5:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBD214E67 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:05:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-027.thuntek.net [207.66.52.27]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA23472; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:04:41 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FF9605.275D22C4@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:02:29 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone want ESR's job? :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price wrote: > > http://www.netaxs.com/~esr/writings/take-my-job-please.html > I think we'll be helping to spread the load with my new commitment. The time is past for there to be ONE Richard Stallman or Eric Raymond who speaks for us. We are a community of many interests, and it will improve our standing in the real-world perception for there to be several of us who cannot be knocked down and blown away. This will just lead to a showcasing of our benefits vs. theirs, and we will _all_ come out ahead of the game through the visibility. The losers will be the dinosaurs. I also ask you to note the downsides of the job that he speaks of. They are real, and I ask you to cut _all_ of us the slack we need to survive, especially as I grow into the job. We have all benefited from RS's years of effort with GNU _and_ from the rise in market perception that ESR has orchestrated. We have felt the frustration of trying to get ESR to mention FreeBSD with Linux. Now, the BSD-licensed software -- and I intend to speak up for ALL, from Apache to XFree86 -- will have its own visible advocate. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 7:45:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B31F14E76 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:45:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-027.thuntek.net [207.66.52.27]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA29762; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:44:18 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FF9F4F.EC102A44@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:42:07 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Nathan Dorfman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> <19990328220054.B45528@001101.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > > > > Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else > > will have to do it. :-) > > Based on my personal survey, I imagine there are many more people out > there with Beastie tattoos than with penguins. I know, in completely > separate contexts, three people with Beastie tats. One has Lasseter's > beastie (from the cover of the "Design and Implementation" books), one > Tatsumi's walking beastie, and one an original(?) 4BSD beastie (the one > that was originally drawn with his fork poking a Unix balloon). I know > nobody with a Linux tattoo. Now _that_ would be an interesting > statistic: the date when Linux gains enough "cool" momentum to make the > number of Tux tats greater than the number of beastie tats... too bad > data for that are so hard to come by. > so now my job includes getting the hardheads to wear Beastie instead of FatButt? ;-) -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 7:50:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nefertiti.lightningweb.com (nefertiti.lightningweb.com [198.68.191.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6632B14E76 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keith@lightningweb.com) Received: from localhost (keith@localhost) by nefertiti.lightningweb.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA28209; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:51:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:51:27 -0800 (PST) From: Keith Woodman To: Donald Wilde Cc: Gregory Sutter , Nathan Dorfman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? In-Reply-To: <36FF9F4F.EC102A44@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'll submit some skin to the cause. Already got a full sleeve tat. What's one more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Woodman Technical Coordinator Keith@lightningweb.com Lightningweb LLC personal http://www.cydonia.net/~saxon work http://www.lightningweb.com/~keith pid 7962 (sniffit), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > > > > > > Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else > > > will have to do it. :-) > > > > Based on my personal survey, I imagine there are many more people out > > there with Beastie tattoos than with penguins. I know, in completely > > separate contexts, three people with Beastie tats. One has Lasseter's > > beastie (from the cover of the "Design and Implementation" books), one > > Tatsumi's walking beastie, and one an original(?) 4BSD beastie (the one > > that was originally drawn with his fork poking a Unix balloon). I know > > nobody with a Linux tattoo. Now _that_ would be an interesting > > statistic: the date when Linux gains enough "cool" momentum to make the > > number of Tux tats greater than the number of beastie tats... too bad > > data for that are so hard to come by. > > > so now my job includes getting the hardheads to wear Beastie instead of > FatButt? ;-) > -- > Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" > Wilde Media > 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 > Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8: 4:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6EB15148; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:04:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-059.thuntek.net [207.66.52.59]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id JAA03899; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:04:08 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FFA3F6.41AA8CC@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:01:58 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: advocacy opportunities bazaar! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Please visit http://www.thuntek.net/~dwilde1/advotasks.html, everybody. _Don't_ respond to this post, please start new threads for discussions. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8:19:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 898B114D0C for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:19:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 33140 invoked by uid 1001); 29 Mar 1999 16:18:51 -0000 Date: 29 Mar 1999 08:18:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:18:51 -0800 From: Bill Swingle To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Message-ID: <19990329081851.A33101@dub.net> References: <36FF242F.EB42C9C8@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Eric Wayte on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:34:47AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hrmm, I thought chuckie was a mean little doll that killed people in movies.... -Bill On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:34:47AM -0500, Eric Wayte wrote: > The FreeBSD mall (www.freebsdmall.com) has just added the plushies to > their extensive line of merchandise. > > > Eric Wayte, DBA > Univ. of Central Florida > ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8:40:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744BC1527E for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:40:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r33.bfm.org [208.18.213.129]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA24990; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:40:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:26:15 -0600 To: David Kelly From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903270339.VAA21330@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19990326093033.00919230@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 21:39 26-03-1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: >8M is more than plenty if its VIDEO RAM, but for core? 16M is the often >quoted minimum. At work they'll only give me 24MB. Works. Netscape has >to swap most every time I pull down a menu. But it works. 8M for video? Don't I wish! Got 1 M for that, upgradeable to 2 M. I have since reinstalled the ports, the entire X11* part was somehow missing. Yesterday I reinstalled X from the ports (before, I had it from the distributions) and went back to twm. It was working for a while, much longer than before, with just one xterm and the clock. The whole think locked up when I clicked on the clock. Strange thing. I could probably live with twm for now if it did not lose focus when the mouse cursor moves out of the window. When I have some time, I'll have to analyze its source code and see if I can modify it not to lose focus. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8:41:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5471215368; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:41:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r33.bfm.org [208.18.213.129]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA24999; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:40:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990329103358.008fe920@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:33:58 -0600 To: Marty Poulin From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990326213540.008f2c90@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 00:01 29-03-1999 -0500, Marty Poulin wrote: >Have you taken a look at the ports collection? There is a "metaport" that >installs everything you need for KDE in there - it's what I used and it >worked quite well. Yes, thank you. I have since found and installed it. And I definitely need more memory. :-( I am going to experiment with bigger swap area to see if it works for now. Just received a tip from Unix Guru Universe how to increase the swap area without label, so I want to play with that. >No, no. Any software written for X will run in X, regardless of the >window manager. There are applications written specifically for KDE which >will only run under KDE, but you can run any X application in KDE or >afterstep or FVWM... that's the whole nature of X. Oh good. Thanks, Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8:41:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061471527E; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:41:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r33.bfm.org [208.18.213.129]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA25007; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:40:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990329103927.008fa890@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:39:27 -0600 To: "Ryan A. Carris" , Marty Poulin From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36FF0B8E.D1B051B1@earthlink.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:11 28-03-1999 -0600, Ryan A. Carris wrote: >I want to expand on this by reminding everyone that at anytime you can >type "/stand/sysinstall" and go to the configure menu then select >ports. If you are connected to the internet of have the CD you can then >just browse the lise of ports, select and in 95% of the time the port >gets installed perfectly. KDE is like this. If you go through this >procedure and select KDE meta port, which inculdes almost everything and >is HUGE, you will have KDE running withing the time it takes to download >it. All you have to do after this is create a file called ".xinitrc" >with one line that says "startkde". I personsally prefer Windowmaker. >It uses much less memory and looks a lot less windowish. One strange thing though: I did that (installing KDE via /stand/sysinstall), and it kept complaining that X was not installed even though it was, just not from the ports (Pressing enter each time kept it moving along, just that I had to press it some 100 times or so). I have since reinstalled X from the ports. But I wonder if there is a way to register software somehow, so ports knows it already is installed for future reference. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 9: 3:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gaia.gutierrez.com (gaia.gutierrez.com [206.105.100.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C1C14DB2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from carlos@gutierrez.com) Received: from localhost (carlos@localhost) by gaia.gutierrez.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06630 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:44:36 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:44:36 -0400 (AST) From: "Carlos M. Gutierrez" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: NATO JETS BOMB REDMOND, WASHINGTON (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org NATO JETS BOMB REDMOND, WASHINGTON (AP Redmond) In a surprise night raid, fighter planes from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization bombed Microsoft headquarters in Redmond, Washington. Jim Shea, spokesman for NATO described the situation in Redmond as a "humanitarian catastrophe". "Hundreds of innocent software firms were being put out of business by Microsoft; NATO had to act to prevent businesscide", Shead added. Meanwhile, in a CNN interview Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates was irate: "We _need_ all the other software firms! It is not true that we are trying to exterminate them... It is THEM that are trying to exterminate us! Please understand...". NATO General Wesley Clark indicated "Microsoft will make peace, or we will destroy its capacity to make war on other small software companies..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 9:16:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1E314DB2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:15:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #4) id 10RcU4-0007J8-00; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:53:44 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:53:44 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Greg Lehey Cc: Mark Ovens , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI') Message-ID: <19990329145344.B28074@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> Ah, so it was you in the picture that Greg Lehey posted a few days ago >>>> (in the thread about dressing up in Daemon costumes) ;-) [..] >> Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? > > It's a quiz. Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk send a blank message to ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 10:18:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 0CD2214EF1; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:18:13 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Cc: gsutter@pobox.com, nathan@rtfm.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <36FF9F4F.EC102A44@thuntek.net> (message from Donald Wilde on Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:42:07 -0700) Subject: Re: tattoos? References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> <19990328220054.B45528@001101.zer0.org> <36FF9F4F.EC102A44@thuntek.net> Message-Id: <19990329181813.0CD2214EF1@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:18:13 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > so now my job includes getting the hardheads to wear Beastie instead of > FatButt? ;-) should be a lot easier to get hardtail riders wearing a beastie tattoo that a fatbutt. ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 13:41:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (pinnacle.internet.co.nz [210.48.55.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCD614DB0 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.2]) by kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20601 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:36:08 +1200 (NZST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:36:08 +1200 (NZST) From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ftp.nz.freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Just out of curiousity, I wondered whether ftp.nz.freebsd.org was in use, and I was surprised when `ftp ftp.nz.freebsd.org' actually came back with something! Hmm. No FreeBSD mirror there. It's Clear-Net's (a major NZ ISP) FTP server. Anybody know the reason why ftp.nz.freebsd.org is pointing there? Cheers. -- Jonathan Chen Once is dumb luck. Twice is coincidence. Three times and Somebody Is Trying To Tell You Something. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 14: 3:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sfba.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.0.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7976814F94; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:03:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@freethought.org) Received: from c40948-a ([24.1.7.99]) by mail.rdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with SMTP id <19990329220334.TWUW6529.mail.rdc1.sfba.home.com@c40948-a>; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:03:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990329140310.00a32df0@mail> X-Sender: tuathadedanann@mail X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:03:10 -0800 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" From: charon@freethought.org Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990329103927.008fa890@mail.bfm.org> References: <36FF0B8E.D1B051B1@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:39 AM 3/29/99 -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >One strange thing though: I did that (installing KDE via >/stand/sysinstall), and it kept complaining that X was not installed even >though it was, just not from the ports (Pressing enter each time kept it >moving along, just that I had to press it some 100 times or so). I have >since reinstalled X from the ports. But I wonder if there is a way to >register software somehow, so ports knows it already is installed for >future reference. mkdir /var/db/pkg XFree86-3.3.3.1 __________________________________________ Charon@freethought.org http://members.home.net/tuathadedanann/ "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." -Albert Einstein __________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 15: 6:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE02C15388 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA27210; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:36:01 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id IAA23993; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:35:45 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:35:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Mark Ovens , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI')) References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> <19990329145344.B28074@scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990329145344.B28074@scientia.demon.co.uk>; from Ben Smithurst on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 02:53:44PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Monday, 29 March 1999 at 14:53:44 +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > >>>>> Ah, so it was you in the picture that Greg Lehey posted a few days ago >>>>> (in the thread about dressing up in Daemon costumes) ;-) > > [..] > >>> Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? >> >> It's a quiz. > > Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first > mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. You must have missed it. I posted it on this list a few weeks back. I'm attaching it again. For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: image/jpeg Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Mystery-core-team-member.jpeg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD//gBIQ1JFQVRPUjogWFYgVmVyc2lvbiAzLjEwYSAgUmV2 OiAxMi8yOS85NCAgUXVhbGl0eSA9IDc1LCBTbW9vdGhpbmcgPSAwCv/bAEMACAYGBwYFCAcH BwkJCAoMFA0MCwsMGRITDxQdGh8eHRocHCAkLicgIiwjHBwoNyksMDE0NDQfJzk9ODI8LjM0 Mv/bAEMBCQkJDAsMGA0NGDIhHCEyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIy MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMv/AABEIAoAB4AMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAfAAABBQEBAQEBAQAAAAAA AAAAAQIDBAUGBwgJCgv/xAC1EAACAQMDAgQDBQUEBAAAAX0BAgMABBEFEiExQQYTUWEHInEU MoGRoQgjQrHBFVLR8CQzYnKCCQoWFxgZGiUmJygpKjQ1Njc4OTpDREVGR0hJSlNUVVZXWFla Y2RlZmdoaWpzdHV2d3h5eoOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPE xcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4eLj5OXm5+jp6vHy8/T19vf4+fr/xAAfAQADAQEBAQEBAQEBAAAA AAAAAQIDBAUGBwgJCgv/xAC1EQACAQIEBAMEBwUEBAABAncAAQIDEQQFITEGEkFRB2FxEyIy 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B8McqTyKkik2ybULEE96zZVKkZOMOB+lXLRjLwO2BWbTNUtTUjfJxj6j0NLIxUYU8GkUBdzE +maZI236ZqLMqxxPjWDztNZh1U7sVLoMw/sSzB/54gflTfF8hGnSY4PaqWgTB9HtB/dUj/x4 10xu4Iwkv3mhpeIj/wAU7J3O9Pw5rhc12/iBgfDsnf5k/nXDZPWtaS0M6z94634fuRrcoHJM JrufCsn+jqPauC+H7bdffgY8pq7bwySsag+p/nXn4te+zrwz/do6q4ceSfpXlfi4qBIzHGJe T7ZjNenTNlGrzTxXA06zwx/fdzj8VX/4msqOkrmsk2rI6Lw5H9lvNQtfMSTyZWj3r0bDEZFa 9w3WsHRL1L3xDq1xHCIUllaQRhvu5atqdutTJMq+pz1+23UrY+j12EEmbT8K4jUn23kBH98V 19q3+ij6VM1qmNO9zgvFJA1lD7Cu18PPmwj+lcR4s/5CkRx2rrfDUhNkgPpWlVfu4siHxMsa 5zay/wC6ayvC8uNw7YrU1g/uHH+ya5/w7IVlI9qIK9OSCT9+LP/Z --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 15:21:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07D914C18 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:21:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: (from norn@localhost) by norn.ca.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27591; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:20:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:20:28 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: Chris Piazza From: Chris Piazza To: Greg Lehey Subject: RE: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysad Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Mark Ovens , Ben Smithurst Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Mar-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 29 March 1999 at 14:53:44 +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: >> Greg Lehey wrote: >> >>>> Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? >>> >>> It's a quiz. >> >> Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first >> mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. > > You must have missed it. I posted it on this list a few weeks back. > I'm attaching it again. > > For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? > Peter. (I hope ;) --- Chris Piazza Abbotsford, BC, Canada cpiazza@home.net finger norn@norn.ca.eu.org for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 16:21:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from icicle.winternet.com (icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4810014C3A for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:21:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26833; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:21:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma026803; Mon, 29 Mar 99 18:20:59 -0600 Received: (from nrahlstr@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id SAA01965; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:20:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990329182058.A1961@winternet.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:20:58 -0600 From: Nathan Ahlstrom To: Chris Piazza , Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysad References: <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Piazza on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 03:20:28PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Piazza wrote: > On 29-Mar-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Monday, 29 March 1999 at 14:53:44 +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > >> Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >>>> Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? > >>> > >>> It's a quiz. > >> > >> Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first > >> mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. > > > > You must have missed it. I posted it on this list a few weeks back. > > I'm attaching it again. > > > > For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? > > > > Peter. (I hope ;) Blind guess, Bruce. -- Nathan Ahlstrom FreeBSD: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ nrahlstr@winternet.com PGP KeyID: 67BC9D19 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 16:33:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C128214E5D for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:33:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-173.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.173]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA09783; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA37289; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:11 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199903300033.SAA37289@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Ben Smithurst , Mark Ovens , FreeBSD Chat From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI')) In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:35:45 +0930." <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:11 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: [...] > For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? Steve Wozniak? :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 16:34: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA39B150A9 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:34:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-173.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.173]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA04991; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA37297; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199903300033.SAA37297@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-reply-to: Message from "G. Adam Stanislav" of "Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:26:15 CST." <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:25 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: > At 21:39 26-03-1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: > >8M is more than plenty if its VIDEO RAM, but for core? 16M is the often > >quoted minimum. At work they'll only give me 24MB. Works. Netscape has > >to swap most every time I pull down a menu. But it works. > > 8M for video? Don't I wish! Got 1 M for that, upgradeable to 2 M. I stumbled upon an 8M Matrox Millenium II for $62 last year. Snapped it up. And also snapped up a used 4M card locally for $25 (all gone now). [...] > I could probably live with twm for now if it did not lose focus when the > mouse cursor moves out of the window. When I have some time, I'll have to > analyze its source code and see if I can modify it not to lose focus. Its not that hard. "man twm" and search for focus. I find "less" from the ports is A Real Good Thing To Have, especially when reading man pages. "setenv PAGER /usr/local/bin/less" and "setenv LESS -aij5sm" then your searches will highlight the hits, the top hit on line 5. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 16:34:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE9E151F8; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:34:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-173.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.173]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA31618; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA37306; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199903300033.SAA37306@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-reply-to: Message from charon@freethought.org of "Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:03:10 PST." <3.0.5.32.19990329140310.00a32df0@mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:46 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org charon@freethought.org writes: > At 10:39 AM 3/29/99 -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >One strange thing though: I did that (installing KDE via > >/stand/sysinstall), and it kept complaining that X was not installed even > >though it was, just not from the ports (Pressing enter each time kept it > >moving along, just that I had to press it some 100 times or so). I have > >since reinstalled X from the ports. But I wonder if there is a way to > >register software somehow, so ports knows it already is installed for > >future reference. > > mkdir /var/db/pkg XFree86-3.3.3.1 ^ needs a slash right here The above will make most packages and ports happy but won't let you pkg_delete XFree86-3.3.3.1 as it doesn't know what to remove. As for myself, have decided building X is a good test of a freshly installed system. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 17:38: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A2C14F17; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:38:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA28595; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:37:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199903300137.UAA28595@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Mar 27, 99 11:32:30 pm" To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:37:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, zen@buddhist.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote, > David Kelly writes: > > I never could remember how to spell apropos but could always remember, > > "man -k". > > "apropos" has two characters too many, and the letters are further > apart on the keyboard than "man -k". No contest. But 'apropos' only actually has 5 different characters and 'a'-'s' and 'o'-'p' are neighboring pairs on the keyboard. 'man -k' has that really long reach for the '-.' There is a contest. ;P (But if you alias 'apropos' to 'apr,' then there really is no contest. Hehe.) -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 17:53:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF7414C0B; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:53:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA20198; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:52:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:52:43 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , dkelly@hiwaay.net, zen@buddhist.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Message-ID: <19990329195243.Y17547@futuresouth.com> References: <199903300137.UAA28595@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199903300137.UAA28595@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>; from Crist J. Clark on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:37:42PM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:37:42PM -0500, a little birdie told me that Crist J. Clark remarked > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote, > > David Kelly writes: > > > I never could remember how to spell apropos but could always remember, > > > "man -k". > > > > "apropos" has two characters too many, and the letters are further > > apart on the keyboard than "man -k". No contest. > > But 'apropos' only actually has 5 different characters and 'a'-'s' and > 'o'-'p' are neighboring pairs on the keyboard. 'man -k' has that > really long reach for the '-.' There is a contest. ;P > > (But if you alias 'apropos' to 'apr,' then there really is no > contest. Hehe.) [19:52:15] mortis:~ (ttyp2):{432}% grep apropos .tcshrc alias ? 'apropos' Even easier ;> --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 18:33:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CDB14D27 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r0.bfm.org [208.18.213.96]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA13567; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:33:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990329203142.008fae20@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:31:42 -0600 To: David Kelly From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903300033.SAA37297@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:33 29-03-1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: >Its not that hard. "man twm" and search for focus. Alas, there is no command listed that would prevent a window from losing focus once the pointer leaves it. :-( I thought that NoTitleFocus might do that, but it did not. This is in accordance with what Unix Unleashed says: You need something other than twm if you want to keep focus on a window when you move the pointer out of it. So, for now, I should probably stick to using FreeBSD in console mode only. I need more memory, and I cannot afford it at this time (I know people say memory is cheap; it is not cheap to me with my $6.25-an-hour income, and I just bought the hard disk). I happen to be the ultimate proof that Stallman is full of it when he says programmers can earn a living by giving their software away for free (which I keep doing but certainly not to make a living). But I better not get started on that one. :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 18:49: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F5314F64; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:48:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id EAA10965; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 04:48:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: cjclark@home.com Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, zen@buddhist.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars References: <199903300137.UAA28595@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Mar 1999 04:48:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Crist J. Clark"'s message of "Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:37:42 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" writes: > But 'apropos' only actually has 5 different characters and 'a'-'s' and > 'o'-'p' are neighboring pairs on the keyboard. 'man -k' has that > really long reach for the '-.' There is a contest. ;P It's not a really long reach on a norwegian keyboard :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 21: 7:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B01414BDA; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:07:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA29299; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:05:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199903300505.AAA29299@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <19990329195243.Y17547@futuresouth.com> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at "Mar 29, 99 07:52:43 pm" To: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:05:22 -0500 (EST) Cc: cjclark@home.com, des@flood.ping.uio.no, dkelly@hiwaay.net, zen@buddhist.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew D. Fuller wrote, > On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:37:42PM -0500, a little birdie told me > that Crist J. Clark remarked > > > > (But if you alias 'apropos' to 'apr,' then there really is no > > contest. Hehe.) > > [19:52:15] mortis:~ > (ttyp2):{432}% grep apropos .tcshrc > alias ? 'apropos' > > Even easier ;> Eep! Aliasing it to a character that has special meaning to the shell?! That's begging for trouble. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 21:28:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD3A14D7B for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA21878; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:28:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:28:20 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Nathan Dorfman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? Message-ID: <19990329212820.B21644@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net>; from Nathan Dorfman on Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > > Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else > will have to do it. :-) My best friend and partner in crime, Nicole, has one. It's very cool. I have to find the time to get one just like it. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 22:19:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4065B14CB2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:19:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990330062052.ELKW5470601.mta2-rme@wocker>; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:20:52 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Jonathan Chen Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:19:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ftp.nz.freebsd.org Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990330062052.ELKW5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30 Mar 99, at 9:36, Jonathan Chen wrote: > Just out of curiousity, I wondered whether ftp.nz.freebsd.org was in > use, and I was surprised when `ftp ftp.nz.freebsd.org' actually came > back with something! > > Hmm. No FreeBSD mirror there. It's Clear-Net's (a major NZ ISP) FTP > server. Anybody know the reason why ftp.nz.freebsd.org is pointing > there? No idea. I actually thought it was about to be delegated to myself. At least, that's what I understood was in motion... -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 22:45:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2499114C3B for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:45:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #4) id 10Rlak-00097f-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:37:14 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:37:13 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Greg Lehey Cc: Mark Ovens , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI')) Message-ID: <19990330003713.A35005@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> <19990329145344.B28074@scientia.demon.co.uk> <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: >> Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first >> mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. > > You must have missed it. I posted it on this list a few weeks back. > I'm attaching it again. > > For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? Peter Wemm? -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk send a blank message to ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 22:50:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42AF14C3B for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:50:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10RsLm-0007aS-0A; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:50:14 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA01907; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:49:46 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA01298; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:49:45 +0100 Message-ID: <370073E5.8A887571@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:49:09 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars References: <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990329203142.008fae20@mail.bfm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > Alas, there is no command listed that would prevent a window from losing > focus once the pointer leaves it. :-( > > I thought that NoTitleFocus might do that, but it did not. > > This is in accordance with what Unix Unleashed says: You need something > other than twm if you want to keep focus on a window when you move the > pointer out of it. > > So, for now, I should probably stick to using FreeBSD in console mode only. > I need more memory, I forget what started this discussion, but it sounds as though you are wanting a WM with low resource overhead abd which allows a window to retain focus when the mouse pointer leaves it. If this is the case why not try olvwm (Sun's OpenLook)? It uses single colour icons, has no task bar etc. and has a "ClickToType" resource setting that keeps focus on a window until you click in another (I personally use the traditional "focus follows mouse" method). HTH -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 5:58:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5426D15AF5 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:58:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-064.thuntek.net [207.66.52.64]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id GAA10322; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:53:03 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3700D6CA.A427640@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:51:06 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars References: <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990329203142.008fae20@mail.bfm.org> <370073E5.8A887571@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > > > Alas, there is no command listed that would prevent a window from losing > > focus once the pointer leaves it. :-( > > > > I thought that NoTitleFocus might do that, but it did not. > > > > This is in accordance with what Unix Unleashed says: You need something > > other than twm if you want to keep focus on a window when you move the > > pointer out of it. > > > > So, for now, I should probably stick to using FreeBSD in console mode only. > > I need more memory, > > I forget what started this discussion, but it sounds as though you are > wanting a WM with low resource overhead abd which allows a window to > retain focus when the mouse pointer leaves it. If this is the case why > not try olvwm (Sun's OpenLook)? It uses single colour icons, has no > task bar etc. and has a "ClickToType" resource setting that keeps > focus on a window until you click in another (I personally use the > traditional "focus follows mouse" method). > and fvwm can be configured with a one-line change to be ClickToFocus. I've always thought it to be 'low-resource', but then I never build an X machine with less than 32M... -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 9:36:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.nortel.ca (mailgate.NortelNetworks.com [192.58.194.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864D414CCA for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:36:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mmercer@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from zcars01t by mailgate.nortel.ca; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:34:36 -0500 Received: from zrchb213.us.nortel.com by zcars01t; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:31:44 -0500 Received: from zrtpd00n.us.nortel.com ([47.156.175.67]) by zrchb213.us.nortel.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id H8H6R35L; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:31:32 -0600 Received: from brtphb42.us.nortel.com by zrtpd00n.us.nortel.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1460.8) id 1WMNY8DM; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:31:33 -0500 Message-ID: <37010A7D.AFCF022D@nortelnetworks.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:31:41 -0500 From: "Michael Mercer" Reply-To: "Michael Mercer" , mmercer@ipass.net Organization: Nortel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CCK-MCD [en] (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/778) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Thanks to Greg Lehey. and PicoBSD. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orig: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg, I would have sent you a thank to your email except I am at work now. Thanks for your help involving the 3.1 Stable kernel just hanging... the PicoBSD you suggested worked like a charm! Also a Thanks to the PICOBSD project crew! later Michael Mercer -- - Smile!! It makes people wonder what you're up to! - Michael E. Mercer Alumni - Fayetteville State University - Nortel - Research Triangle Park - mmercer@nortelnetworks.com - Work - mmercer@ipass.net - Personal - mercer@sequent.uncfsu.edu - School - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 10:23:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6334314CCD; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:23:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22705; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:32:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd022622; Tue Mar 30 12:31:57 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA14513; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:23:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301823.LAA14513@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: dyson@iquest.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:23:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903261019.FAA00733@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 26, 99 05:19:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Linux-Alpha doesn't have the 2 gig problem, and the 2.2 series does have > > > patches available to go past the 2 gig limit. > > > > Which is why I personally don't like Linux. It seems that you're > > always loading patches to fix little problems. :) Granted FreeBSD has > > patches too. But when was the last time you needed a patch? :) Anyways, > > isn't the Linux patch still limited to 8 gigs or so? > > IMO, it is *silly* that Linux doesn't support large files correctly. If > it doesn't support large files on an X86, then it doesn't support large > files. There was alot of pressure from the user and developer base when > FreeBSD didn't properly support large files, and I am surprised that > either the Linux base hasn't pressured for proper support for large files, > or the Linux developers can't figure out how to do it. (I sure hope that > it isn't arrogance on their part that it isn't "needed.") Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only 6 months ahead, like everyone else. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 10:40:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C68015114 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:40:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09282; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:40:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd009199; Tue Mar 30 11:39:54 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA15833; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:39:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301839.LAA15833@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:39:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903261129.GAA08569@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 26, 99 06:29:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Don't be intentionally ignorant. As I stated above, there are patches. > > Logically, one might take that to mean that Linux developers can indeed > > figure out how to do it. Fanaticism is soooo irritating. > > Well, why isn't it in the distribution? Why has it taken soooo long? The > key is that I listened to the user base, and did some seriously grungy > programming. There was little elitism, but simply to do what was needed. Why doesn't FreeBSD FS stacking work? Why was X.25 broken, and then not fixed? Why was LFS broken, and then not fixed? Why does the VM system like to write password database pages back to the crontab, if you stress the system by running newsyslog once a minute from a cron that modifes copy-on-write pages mmap'ping the password database into code, as if the pointers in the pwent pointed back to static buffers in the C library? Why does it take more than one floppy to install, when we have sufficient BIOS thunking technology that a boot floppy doesn't *need* any native drivers for hardware? Why is the resolver still in the C library, instead of in "libresolv"? Why is it single threaded? Why is it hopelessly out of date? Why hasn't anyone with any official standing with the project contacted MITRE for their FreeBSD NetBEUI implementation? Where is IPv6? Where is the IPv4 compatability, with IPv6 enabled by default as the transport of choice? Where's the FreeBSD nsswitch code? How is it possible that professional engineers can still check in code that won't build when it's checked out? In a more general sense: Why are most of the Usenix papers scheduled this year not about work done on FreeBSD, if FreeBSD is the premeire research OS? Where is the research? FreeBSD has it's own problems in the "show me the money" vein. > made, and FreeBSD development being mired in short term expediency. In > fact, the FreeBSD solution has been being discussed on the Linux mailing > lists, and wonder if they looked at what we did? It is much easier to > copy a design, than to actually think... Linux has shown a willingness to implement design that FreeBSD has only given lip service to, time and again. Linux is, unfortunately, where research is taking place. > It seems that fanaticism is where an inferior decision is being made, > whilst a correct solution already exists :-). A little verbal sparring > is nowhere near the insanity of wasting effort with reimplementation. E.g., FreeBSD's implementation of a kernel linker *after* Linux? I tried to implement a kernel linker for FreeBSD, and was met with a "not in *my* kernel". I had to settle for an inferior external linker mechanism; and viola, LKM's were born. Similar stories exist elsehwere in the history of the project: POSIX threads, the addition of system calls, like "issetuid" (or whatever). Julian's right; someone needs to do real architectural work. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 10:57:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8BE153E9 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:57:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16384; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:56:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd016270; Tue Mar 30 11:56:47 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17612; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:56:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301856.LAA17612@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: http://www.peterzale.com/377.html To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:56:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199903261856.MAA14323@free.pcs> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Mar 26, 99 12:56:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Yeah, me too. Do they really have women like that at MIT? :-) > >> > >> So will somebody tell me the answer to the riddle at > >> http://www.peterzale.com/vacation.html ? > > > >Dunno. The 76th is an engineering battalian. > > I have no idea either, but I think you meant the the 86th Army of Indiana, > which is an engineering battalion. > > It could be the 76th Fighter Squadron of the 23rd Fighter group, 14th AF. > Or VC-76, of the Navy. I have no idea what the strip is referring to. Probably it's more proper to say they "were an engineering battalion in the Korean war". I picked the Korean war due to the reference to "VC Gunner"; I guess "VC" could be a Vietnam reference, but I'm pretty sure the 76th din't have any Viet Cong soldiers officially attached to them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 11: 7:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33ABC153E9 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:07:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11695; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:16:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd011624; Tue Mar 30 13:16:06 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18598; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:07:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301907.MAA18598@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why no FreeBSD coffee mugs? To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:07:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990327004128.A35888@keltia.freenix.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Mar 27, 99 00:41:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Walnut Creek used to sell FreeBSD mugs two years ago but stopped because > the high ratio of broken ones during shipping. I ordered 14 for a few > friends and I at that time and 6 were broken... > > WC changed them and I can understand them stopping selling 'em. > > I show mine at work whenever possible :-) In the book "A complaint is a gift", a similar example is given in two different locations. Rather than not shipping product, the companies involved changed their packaging system used for shipping thier products. Amazingly enough, these companies are both thriving today; if I remember correctly, it has something to do with being able to get goods to customers intact. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 11:23:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1024114FE1 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27303; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:22:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd027274; Tue Mar 30 12:22:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19972; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:22:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301922.MAA19972@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sweet news 8) To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:22:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903270307.TAA01299@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Mar 26, 99 07:07:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Major e-mail virus " hits corporate hard . The article reports that in one > company > 60,000 machines were affected . > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2233030,00.html > > Perhaps some of the security oriented FreeBSD companies can capitalize on the > good news!! "FreeBSD can protect you from the Melissa virus" (despite the fact that it's techniocally a bacterium. ontologically speaking...). Here is a Melissa "patch" for sendmail .mc files (from sendmail.com): --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOCAL_RULESETS # Kludgey Melissa virus checking routine. # Just need enough of a pattern to match. # Instructional note: # The format for the rule is # RExactly the thing you want to quote # No quote marks, no tabs, absolutely nothing in # parentheses (like this, they're considered comments # and will be removed before they get to the rules). # After the exact thing, then a tab, and the $#error. # Note, the $* matches anything, so it's useful for # wildcarding. This also scans all messages with # Subject: headers and invokes a rule, so there is # a performance hit. HSubject: $>Check_Subject D{MPat}Important Message From D{MMsg}This message may contain the Melissa virus. SCheck_Subject R${MPat} $* $#error $: 553 ${MMsg} RRe: ${MPat} $* $#error $: 553 ${MMsg} --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Make sure you replace the spaces between "$*" and "$#" with a single tab. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 11:51:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from geek.grf.ov.com (geek.grf.ov.com [192.251.86.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E9B15AD9 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:51:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from pebbles (pebbles.cam.veritas.com [166.98.49.16]) by geek.grf.ov.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA06407; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:51:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Sender: ksmm@mail.cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:45:11 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: FreeBSD is running out of time Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903301823.LAA14513@usr06.primenet.com> References: <199903261019.FAA00733@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So what are these additional fields being used for now? And is there a solution available or in the works to solve the 2038 bug in FreeBSD? Or will we just all be using Linux after that point? :-/ K.S. At 01:23 PM 3/30/99, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > >IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were >reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't >exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > >But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only >6 months ahead, like everyone else. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 12:28:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 133A814D21 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:28:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 5996 invoked from network); 30 Mar 1999 20:28:29 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 20:28:29 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA16589; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:28:27 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903302028.PAA16589@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <199903301839.LAA15833@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 30, 99 06:39:52 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:28:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Don't be intentionally ignorant. As I stated above, there are patches. > > > Logically, one might take that to mean that Linux developers can indeed > > > figure out how to do it. Fanaticism is soooo irritating. > > > > Well, why isn't it in the distribution? Why has it taken soooo long? The > > key is that I listened to the user base, and did some seriously grungy > > programming. There was little elitism, but simply to do what was needed. > > Why doesn't FreeBSD FS stacking work? > It never did, and there hasn't been much demand. It actually would be worthwhile to totally remove the stacking, or fix it with a VM approach. It is totally wrong to use buffer/VP approach, but there are those who advocate it (too many people are "bp" heads -- bp's are good only for I/O, not object or caching representation.) FS stacking will not help to gain commercial work, but properly working reasonbly sized file I/O does. > > Why was X.25 broken, and then > not fixed? > I don't know. I guess that it is an orphan, where the implementation hasn't been commercially interesting (or the companies aren't contributing the work back.) It certainly isn't interesting from a research or fun standpoint. Since companies like Whistle do networking, it would be nice to see a contribution in that area? (I know that there is supposedly alot of X.25 stuff out there, but why hasn't it been supported? Answer: apparently other types of X.25 interfacing methods are being used.) > > Why was LFS broken, and then not fixed? > It was always broken, and has always been basically a festering mess. LFS wasn't rewritten because softupdates has been the better answer for most of what LFS can do. It is totally wrong to implement a bp based LFS anyway, note the hacks in vfs_bio to support that travesty. > > Why does the VM > system like to write password database pages back to the crontab, if > you stress the system by running newsyslog once a minute from a cron > that modifes copy-on-write pages mmap'ping the password database into > code, as if the pointers in the pwent pointed back to static buffers > in the C library? > Which version? and please PR it. I have *never* seen it in person recently, and locally hacked kernels can cause unexpected brokenness. The problem of modified programs has been fixed a long time ago. Also, it has taken awhile to find someone competent to work on the VM/VFS code. There is a possibility now, but most of the people with the "balls" to work on the code with commit frenzies, are often not careful enough to do so. Time for cowboys is LONG LONG gone, and it seems that cowboys are the most commonly available resource. > > In a more general sense: Why are most of the Usenix papers scheduled > this year not about work done on FreeBSD, if FreeBSD is the premeire > research OS? Where is the research? > Alot of work is done privately. Research != papers, there is NO advantage for a FreeBSD team member to give away the mechanisms for FreeBSD's behavior. > > FreeBSD has it's own problems in the "show me the money" vein. > > > > made, and FreeBSD development being mired in short term expediency. In > > fact, the FreeBSD solution has been being discussed on the Linux mailing > > lists, and wonder if they looked at what we did? It is much easier to > > copy a design, than to actually think... > > Linux has shown a willingness to implement design that FreeBSD has > only given lip service to, time and again. Linux is, unfortunately, > where research is taking place. > The ones doing real work will continue to use BSD for now. I don't consider the catchup game that you have alluded to as "research", but only catchup. You are confusing "catchup" with research. Do you see the difference? (Linux's VM research is a very entertaining example: can you say lots of knobs that you need to tweak?) FreeBSD's VM has lots of knobs, but those knobs are only desirable for atypical configurations. > > > It seems that fanaticism is where an inferior decision is being made, > > whilst a correct solution already exists :-). A little verbal sparring > > is nowhere near the insanity of wasting effort with reimplementation. > > E.g., FreeBSD's implementation of a kernel linker *after* Linux? I > tried to implement a kernel linker for FreeBSD, and was met with a > "not in *my* kernel". I had to settle for an inferior external > linker mechanism; and viola, LKM's were born. Similar stories exist > elsehwere in the history of the project: POSIX threads, the addition > of system calls, like "issetuid" (or whatever). > > You can talk a good talk, but I would have adopted your work if it was worthwhile to do so (I wanted to, in fact.) I didn't have the energy to maintain the mess that your changes would have caused. It is better to deal with the mess one knows, rather than the mess that one doesn't :-). The changes that did get adopted were good, but did require support. (Sometimes your stuff was good, but much of the time, not complete enough.) > > Julian's right; someone needs to do real architectural work. > Time for Julian/Terry BSD. I am not really interested in armchair quarterbacks unless they are willing and able to help solve the problems. One reason why my code hadn't made it into FreeBSD's tree when I left, was because of QC issues. It takes restraint to keep from hacking the tree, and yet there is the need for architectural work. But who? There are precious few people available to do the FreeBSD architectural work (who are competent enough.) I do not include myself in that group, but would support someone who is willing and able. If my work would not be wasted, I would aggressively support such a developer (and continually do in the background.) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 13: 7:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D998B14D0D for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:07:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12977; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:06:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd012947; Tue Mar 30 14:06:49 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00916; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:06:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903302106.OAA00916@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD is running out of time To: ksmm@threespace.com (The Classiest Man Alive) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:06:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "The Classiest Man Alive" at Mar 30, 99 02:45:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So what are these additional fields being used for now? And is there a > solution available or in the works to solve the 2038 bug in FreeBSD? Or > will we just all be using Linux after that point? :-/ > > >Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > > >IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > >reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > >exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > > > >But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only > >6 months ahead, like everyone else. The fields were coopted for nanosecond "accuracy" for the make(1) modification time dependency to support sub-second granularity. Since only the modification time has this exposure requirement, this could have easily been accomplished via use of a spare field. In reality, the requirement only exists for generated files for which the graph closure is dynamically updated between the time of the file generation and the next run. Basically, in order to trigger a "problem" from, this, you would need to generate a generated file from a generated file during a 3 Makefile recursive descent, or you would need a two Makefile lateral dependency (this is just bad Makefile coding, but it's a possible scenario). The failure mode would cause the regeneration of the target file; in other words, the failure is harmless. An alternate workaround would be to ensure that the time has increased from the last stamping. This is a potential "round up" to one second for all operations. Considering that what we're talking about is subsecond operations, redoing the operation is hardly a hardship, though it might cause your "make world" ``benchmark'' to take a second more than it would have (big whoop). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 13:13:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (pinnacle.internet.co.nz [210.48.55.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0AC14F8B for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:13:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.2]) by kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01418 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:10:37 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:10:37 +1200 (NZST) From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD is running out of time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > So what are these additional fields being used for now? And is there a > solution available or in the works to solve the 2038 bug in FreeBSD? Or > will we just all be using Linux after that point? :-/ > > K.S. > > > At 01:23 PM 3/30/99, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > >Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > > >IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > >reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > >exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. Other points to consider: Will/Should the solution be backward-compatible with all the FreeBSD FFS already created out there? Will we still be using FFS? -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "A person should be able to do a small bit of everything, specialisation is for insects" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 13:33:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freed.libdns.qc.ca (derby.JSP.UMontreal.CA [132.204.45.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5392150D6 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:33:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spidey@libdns.qc.ca) Received: from localhost (spidey@localhost) by freed.libdns.qc.ca (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA03390 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:32:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from spidey@libdns.qc.ca) X-Authentication-Warning: freed.libdns.qc.ca: spidey owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:32:55 -0500 (EST) From: Spidey Reply-To: Spidey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Checkpassword port (stupid question) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What does this port do? I don't understand the DESCR in the ports, no more than the files in the distribution... Does it replace the login/ftp/whatever interfaces??? thanks for comments (not for flames though! :) When a man lies he murders some part of the world These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives All this I can witness any longer Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 14: 0:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B532B1502E for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:00:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 27639 invoked from network); 30 Mar 1999 22:00:03 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 22:00:03 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA16694; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:00:02 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903302200.RAA16694@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <199903301823.LAA14513@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 30, 99 06:23:05 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:00:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Linux-Alpha doesn't have the 2 gig problem, and the 2.2 series does have > > > > patches available to go past the 2 gig limit. > > > > > > Which is why I personally don't like Linux. It seems that you're > > > always loading patches to fix little problems. :) Granted FreeBSD has > > > patches too. But when was the last time you needed a patch? :) Anyways, > > > isn't the Linux patch still limited to 8 gigs or so? > > > > IMO, it is *silly* that Linux doesn't support large files correctly. If > > it doesn't support large files on an X86, then it doesn't support large > > files. There was alot of pressure from the user and developer base when > > FreeBSD didn't properly support large files, and I am surprised that > > either the Linux base hasn't pressured for proper support for large files, > > or the Linux developers can't figure out how to do it. (I sure hope that > > it isn't arrogance on their part that it isn't "needed.") > > Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > > But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only > 6 months ahead, like everyone else. > Since the *fix* wasn't implemented, then the fix wasn't broken. Nothing additional was broken, and a better fix will eventually be created (e.g. changed inode structure for ACL support?) If you think that the ODS needs to be fixed, then fix it!!! :-). If it ends up being a solution rather than a hack, then it might just be adopted. If the "fix" ends up requiring lots of support from others, then the chance of the "idea" being adopted is lessened. But, please don't proclaim an idea as an implementation, and don't proclaim a piece of hackery as a "solution." I understand your frustration, but because YOUR projects don't get the highest priority doesn't mean that you are being ignored. It seems odd to me that some people think that others should support their works. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 14: 8:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1A615A9E for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:08:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10662; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:07:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd010643; Tue Mar 30 15:07:45 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05079; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:07:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903302207.PAA05079@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:07:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903302028.PAA16589@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 30, 99 03:28:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Why doesn't FreeBSD FS stacking work? > > It never did, and there hasn't been much demand. Hey, speak for yourself. I've gone so far as to approach John Heidemann about rereleasing his code donated to the CSRG under the GPL for a Linux implementation (yes, I'm deadly serious). John's stuff worked before it was damaged into inoperability, and it currently works fine on BSDI. > It actually would be worthwhile to totally remove the stacking, or fix > it with a VM approach. It is totally wrong to use buffer/VP approach, > but there are those who advocate it (too many people are "bp" heads -- > bp's are good only for I/O, not object or caching representation.) It is wrong to think of vnodes as caching objects instead of backing objeccts. Yes, I know all of the unified VM and buffer cache centric arguments in favor of this, but the point of having a well defined framework and API is the ability to share FS code with other OS's. And not all other OS's have unified VM and buffer caches. Implemetnation of a common API must take into account the lowest common denominator, or you will be creating a FreeBSD specific API that is not generally useful. > FS stacking will not help to gain commercial work, but properly working > reasonbly sized file I/O does. It is (or should be, since the announcement on these lists last week) well known that Veritas is porting to Linux. This code would work in FreeBSD as well, if the Linux and FreeBSD VFS stacking frameworks were identical API's. Because the API's are not identical (in fact, both are sufficiently fluid and architecturally damaged as to render them nearly useless), this work is bound to be another checkmark in the Linux column that will remain absent from the FreeBSD column. > > Why was X.25 broken, and then > > not fixed? > > I don't know. I guess that it is an orphan, where the implementation hasn't > been commercially interesting (or the companies aren't contributing the work > back.) It certainly isn't interesting from a research or fun standpoint. > Since companies like Whistle do networking, it would be nice to see a > contribution in that area? (I know that there is supposedly alot of X.25 > stuff out there, but why hasn't it been supported? Answer: apparently > other types of X.25 interfacing methods are being used.) The real answer is that it was broken when someone was permitted to change interfaces upon which it depended, but was not thereafter held accountable for keeping the "unsexy" code working. To use your terminology, "it was a cowboy what done it". > > Why was LFS broken, and then not fixed? > > It was always broken, and has always been basically a festering mess. I think Margo Seltzer would take some issue with this. I would trust her authority as an FS expert above that of anyone in the core team; after all, file systems are her life's work. > LFS wasn't rewritten because softupdates has been the better answer > for most of what LFS can do. Soft updates as they are realized in FreeBSD are a tiny fraction of what they could, and should, have been. I have had discussions with Both Ganger and Patt via email, and discussions in person with Kirk about the general soloution for the problem. The FreeBSD soloution is far from general (or dependencies would be capable of spanning stacking layers, and it would be possible to build a transaction system into the kernel, accessible from user space, and making such implied data consistency guarantees as need to support true database systems). While Dr. McKusick has made some good points in favor of the less general soloution (including "that's not what Whistle paid him to do"), his arguments about dependency representation are not among them. There is no reason for the dependency representation to bloat up as a result of generalizing the relationships. The code that is lacking generality is not the dependency representation, nor the dependency conflict resoloution, but in fact the conflict and dependent event registration mechanisms. Right now, the edges and the nodal relationships are hard coded in the structure of the code. It is entirely possible to replace this code with code that implements resolver and event-of-interest registration at the time filesystems are instanced. Yes, this requires either a Warshall's algorithm at instance time to precalculate the relationships -- BUT THIS IS NOT RUNTIME OVERHEAD, any more than the VOP descriptor arrays should constitute runtime overhead. Clever use of Hamiltonians would allow incremental caluclation of Warshall's by precomputing everything but leaf nodes. Sedgewick discusses this algorithm in his book. Even so, there is still a reason for Journalling and Logging. If nothing else, it allows for deterministic failure recovery, whereas asoft updates merely guarantee consistency, without any recourse for software fault tolernace in the fact of implied relationships (e.g., the relationship between a "rerods" file and an "index" file in a simple relational database). These issues can not be resolved until it is possible to acknowledge a transaction as having completed ONLY AFTER SUFFICIENT INFORMATION IS COMMITTED TO STABLE STORAGE, SUCH THAT IT MAY BE ROLLED FORWARD AFTER A FAILURE. This distinction is of paramount importances, and can not be over-emphasized. > It is totally wrong to implement a bp > based LFS anyway, note the hacks in vfs_bio to support that travesty. With respect, these are historical artifacts that also applied to the FFS of the same code vintage, and which predate the unification of the VM and buffer cache code. This is a case of failure to cross "T"'s and dot "I"'s during the VM and buffer cache unification wherein the equivalent FFS issues *were* addressed. Code does not mutate. If code stops working, it is a failure in maintenance, not a failure of the code (presuming it worked beforehand -- and LFS did; it merely lacked a cleaner process to deal with issue like garbage collection and fragmentations -- issues addressed in later versions of Margo's code). > > Why does the VM > > system like to write password database pages back to the crontab, if > > you stress the system by running newsyslog once a minute from a cron > > that modifes copy-on-write pages mmap'ping the password database into > > code, as if the pointers in the pwent pointed back to static buffers > > in the C library? > > Which version? and please PR it. I have *never* seen it in person recently, > and locally hacked kernels can cause unexpected brokenness. The problem > of modified programs has been fixed a long time ago. Also, it has taken > awhile to find someone competent to work on the VM/VFS code. There > is a possibility now, but most of the people with the "balls" to work > on the code with commit frenzies, are often not careful enough to do so. I believe Matt has much of this in hand. But it is certainly not finding it's way back into 2.x-STABLE, per the developement model. Yes, I know that -current is 4.x now, and 3.1-STABLE is the maintenance target, but the fact remains that these problems were identified during the period of time when the 2.x-STABLE branch was *supposedly* being actively maintained. I *personnaly* identified two of these problems, in great gory detail, and their existance was "pooh-pooh"'ed until 2.x was no longer an active maintenance release. I had to fincd explicity demonstration cases for the people who didn't feel like bothering to try to follow my theoretical arguments, and refused to work from anything but concrete examples. > Time for cowboys is LONG LONG gone, and it seems that cowboys are the most > commonly available resource. What do you expect, when you set up camp outside Dodge City? Bankers? > > In a more general sense: Why are most of the Usenix papers scheduled > > this year not about work done on FreeBSD, if FreeBSD is the premeire > > research OS? Where is the research? > > Alot of work is done privately. Research != papers, there is NO advantage > for a FreeBSD team member to give away the mechanisms for FreeBSD's behavior. Malarkey. What do you care if the software running the ATM machine and using the correct algorithm is FreeBSD, or some other software using the correct algorithm? The point of the exercise is to increase overall correctness in the world. What's the point of using a BSD license, if the intent is not to spread the code as far and as wide as possible? C.v. TCP/IP. Obscurity hurts everyone. The obscurity of the VM algorithms (not to pick favorites, but the VM system is one place where complexity was allowed to grow in FreeBSD unshackled by the "we must understand this if you do" mentality) was, in fact, damaging to Matt's ability to contribute. It was not Matt's cowboy nature, but rather the inability of a core team to impose a vetting process on somone who could spend between 12 and 16 hours a day coding on nothing but FreeBSD. > > Linux has shown a willingness to implement design that FreeBSD has > > only given lip service to, time and again. Linux is, unfortunately, > > where research is taking place. > > The ones doing real work will continue > to use BSD for now. I don't consider the catchup game that you have alluded > to as "research", but only catchup. You are confusing "catchup" with > research. Do you see the difference? (Linux's VM research is a very > entertaining example: can you say lots of knobs that you need to tweak?) > FreeBSD's VM has lots of knobs, but those knobs are only desirable for > atypical configurations. I see the difference. However, the VM system is about the only place that this can be inexpertly defended. All other places, Linux is close enough that you have to defend such issues with very hard facts. But compare either to SVR4 ES/MP, or Dynix, of 5 years ago, and both FreeBSD and Linux have areas which are still *laughably* primative, with no apparent interest or desire to address them. SMP is one such area; a firm DDI/DKI is another. > You can talk a good talk, but I would have adopted your work if it > was worthwhile to do so (I wanted to, in fact.) I didn't have the > energy to maintain the mess that your changes would have caused. It > is better to deal with the mess one knows, rather than the mess > that one doesn't :-). The changes that did get adopted were good, > but did require support. > > (Sometimes your stuff was good, but much of the time, not complete > enough.) "Better the devil you know" has never been a sound technological argument. I don't need to reach into my own arse for my examples (though such examples abound); I can point at the networking stuff that Garret did, which was brilliant, but which was ripped out due to it not being completed in what someone arbitrarily decided was a timely pashion. There is code from Julian, PHK, and Bruce Evans that falls into this same category. William's serial driver code, or Vadim Antonov's floppy tape driver design (from BSDI). There are literally thousands of such examples. > > Julian's right; someone needs to do real architectural work. > > Time for Julian/Terry BSD. You've been reading too much advocacy. I have had sufficient opportunity for such a thing in the past. And I have resisted. I have resisted not only my own opportunity, but that of others, as well. Schism is not the answer, unless you have a social framework ready to go in the post-schism universe. I am frankly of the opinion now that much of "the FreeBSD problem" is a macro effect of a micro rule, imposed by the tools available, and, in fact, CVS in particular. Many macro behaviours derive from micro rules which prohibit individual behaviours which are, in fact, available to the group. Like the patchkit before it (something which, sociologically, I still deeply regret), the use of CVS in the current system limits the size, length, magnitude, and duration of branches which diverge from the common vision (and common visions, themselves, are myopic by their natures). > I am not really interested in armchair > quarterbacks unless they are willing and able to help solve the problems. And likewise, for people willing and able to accept that help. The sword of Damocles is a two edged blade, as were most gladius's, and that blade cuts both ways. > One reason why my code hadn't made it into FreeBSD's tree when I left, > was because of QC issues. It takes restraint to keep from hacking the > tree, and yet there is the need for architectural work. But who? Pick someone. Someone with a vision in excess of six months. Pick Kirk McKusick, if he's willing, or David Greenman, if he can be freed from the morass of crises an minutia into which has obviously been dragging him away from the architects drafting table. Don't involve the architect(s) (or allow them to involve themselves!) in the petty day-to-day infighting. But for God's sake, pick someone. > There are precious few people available to do the FreeBSD architectural > work (who are competent enough.) I do not include myself in that group, > but would support someone who is willing and able. If my work would not > be wasted, I would aggressively support such a developer (and continually > do in the background.) As would I. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 14:19: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AEA15C13; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:19:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10504; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:18:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd010408; Tue Mar 30 15:18:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06239; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:18:29 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903302218.PAA06239@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:18:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net, hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903302200.RAA16694@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 30, 99 05:00:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > > > IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > > reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > > exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > > > > But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only > > 6 months ahead, like everyone else. > > Since the *fix* wasn't implemented, then the fix wasn't broken. Since the "fix" contradicted a clear architectural direction set by CSRG with clear foresight of the Y2038 problem, it violated the architectural principles which resulted in the field reservation. > Nothing additional was broken, and a better fix will eventually be > created Excuse me, ask Kirk. He designed the damn FFS with those reserved fields for a reason. > (e.g. changed inode structure for ACL support?) This is what stacking layers and namespace escapes were invented for. This is why John's students have been able to implement such VFS stacking layers (albeit, not in FreeBSD, where layer stacking is broken), but the architectural principles are surely not that difficult to grasp. I am aware of the ideas being floated to support ACL's in NetBSD; an implementation that doubles the size of the inode is a bad idea. Take it from me; I doubled the size of the inode for a commercial FS, so I well know of that which I speak. > If you think that the ODS needs to be fixed, then fix it!!! :-). If > it ends up being a solution rather than a hack, then it might just be > adopted. If the "fix" ends up requiring lots of support from others, > then the chance of the "idea" being adopted is lessened. How could the intended use of the fields, now that they contain non-zero data instead of zeros, per the backward compatability requirement of the original design for the Y2038 fix, be anything *but* a hack? The data is on the disks; the damage is done. > But, please don't proclaim an idea as an implementation, and don't > proclaim a piece of hackery as a "solution." I understand your frustration, > but because YOUR projects don't get the highest priority doesn't mean > that you are being ignored. It seems odd to me that some people think > that others should support their works. What about CSRG's project? Those spare fields were intentional, not accidental. Rail as you might, those fields were coopted, not architected, away. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 15: 3:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C3F514C2D for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:03:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 4826 invoked from network); 30 Mar 1999 23:03:16 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 23:03:16 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA16794; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:03:10 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903302303.SAA16794@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <199903302218.PAA06239@usr04.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 30, 99 10:18:28 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:03:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net, hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > > > > > IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > > > reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > > > exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > > > > > > But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only > > > 6 months ahead, like everyone else. > > > > Since the *fix* wasn't implemented, then the fix wasn't broken. > > Since the "fix" contradicted a clear architectural direction set by CSRG > with clear foresight of the Y2038 problem, it violated the architectural > principles which resulted in the field reservation. > That begs the issue that nothing was broken, because the fields weren't used. The fix didn't exist at all in FreeBSD. > > > > Nothing additional was broken, and a better fix will eventually be > > created > > Excuse me, ask Kirk. He designed the damn FFS with those reserved fields > for a reason. > Those reserved, unused fields? It makes little difference as to how the problem is fixed, if the problem isn't fixed :-). > > > > (e.g. changed inode structure for ACL support?) > > This is what stacking layers and namespace escapes were invented for. > This is why John's students have been able to implement such VFS stacking > layers (albeit, not in FreeBSD, where layer stacking is broken), but the > architectural principles are surely not that difficult to grasp. > The framework as it is, is super broken, and any fixes to date are only expedient and insufficient. It requires total architecture rewrite if you want reasonable efficiency (not throwing performance away) and coherency. Half solutions need not apply -- if the framework as it was conceived and implemented so far in *BSD was fully implemented, there would either be intractable coherency problems, or probably intolerable efficiency issues. If one stayed in the SYSVr2 API world, the framework as-is would be okay -- however, we are far away from those days. > > I am aware of the ideas being floated to support ACL's in NetBSD; an > implementation that doubles the size of the inode is a bad idea. Take > it from me; I doubled the size of the inode for a commercial FS, so I > well know of that which I speak. > Which slow, commercial OS did you work on? Why do you put words in my mouth about doubling inode size? Straw man... > > > If you think that the ODS needs to be fixed, then fix it!!! :-). If > > it ends up being a solution rather than a hack, then it might just be > > adopted. If the "fix" ends up requiring lots of support from others, > > then the chance of the "idea" being adopted is lessened. > > How could the intended use of the fields, now that they contain non-zero > data instead of zeros, per the backward compatability requirement of the > original design for the Y2038 fix, be anything *but* a hack? The data > is on the disks; the damage is done. > The ODS will need rework before Y2038 anyway. I suspect that if the code is working by 2010, things will be all well. A UFS2 would eventually be a good thing. > > > > But, please don't proclaim an idea as an implementation, and don't > > proclaim a piece of hackery as a "solution." I understand your frustration, > > but because YOUR projects don't get the highest priority doesn't mean > > that you are being ignored. It seems odd to me that some people think > > that others should support their works. > > What about CSRG's project? Those spare fields were intentional, not > accidental. Rail as you might, those fields were coopted, not architected, > away. > Fallacy of appealing to authority? Those fields aren't owned until they are used. The ODS will be changed in the future anyway. It makes little difference as to where the data is. There is room in the inode, if needed. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 15: 6:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E843214F8D for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:06:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13468; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:03:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903302303.PAA13468@implode.root.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:07:43 GMT." <199903302207.PAA05079@usr04.primenet.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:03:32 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I really shouldn't get into this, but a couple of points: 1) According to people who should know, John H. did the implementation and integration of the stackable filesystems support in 4.4BSD himself, so if you have a complaint about they way it was done, then blame him and not anyone else. 2) If (1) "works" in BSD/OS (and after hearing what Mike K. has to say, I'm certainly not convinced of this), it's only because they spent a lot of time making it work. 3) There were/are a lot of architectural problems in the LFS code. That it takes 1MB of RAM per mounted filesystem is one of them. Its amusing buffer management mechanisms are another. Margo knows this as well as anyone. LFS was never production quality; it was written as a proof of concept that worked well enough to get some benchmark numbers from and that's about it. The benchmark numbers weren't that great, so there wasn't sufficient interest to put in that last 10% that takes 90% of the time. 4) The use of the spare time field in FFS for sub-second time keeping is consistent with what BSD/OS (and apparantly Solaris and others) have done. Kirk's of the opinion that we'll have to move to larger inodes anyway due to the limitations of [32bit] block pointers, so using the spare field for sub-second time keeping, rather than Y2038, isn't an issue in his opinion. 5) Kirk is ready to see your generalized "soft updates", so get busy. 6) Regarding IPv6: Time has proven that we made the right decision by waiting. It was sufficient motivation to get the various camps to merge their efforts. The merged IPv6 will be brought into FreeBSD as soon as it is ready. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 15:36:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC5FB14DD7 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:36:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 15130 invoked from network); 30 Mar 1999 23:36:20 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 23:36:20 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA16847; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:36:20 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903302336.SAA16847@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <199903302207.PAA05079@usr04.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 30, 99 10:07:43 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:36:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Why doesn't FreeBSD FS stacking work? > > > > It never did, and there hasn't been much demand. > > Hey, speak for yourself. I've gone so far as to approach John Heidemann > about rereleasing his code donated to the CSRG under the GPL for a > Linux implementation (yes, I'm deadly serious). > > John's stuff worked before it was damaged into inoperability, and > it currently works fine on BSDI. > With coherency? It sure wasn't coherent (per the original 4.4 code.) > > > > It actually would be worthwhile to totally remove the stacking, or fix > > it with a VM approach. It is totally wrong to use buffer/VP approach, > > but there are those who advocate it (too many people are "bp" heads -- > > bp's are good only for I/O, not object or caching representation.) > > It is wrong to think of vnodes as caching objects instead of backing > objeccts. > I agree with that, but I didn't say anything contrary to that. I do claim that the concept of 'bp' caching is the wrong concept. > > Yes, I know all of the unified VM and buffer cache centric arguments > in favor of this, but the point of having a well defined framework > and API is the ability to share FS code with other OS's. > I agree that the framework should be better defined, once it works. The current framework, if defined, will still not work. The current framework, with all of Terry's fixes that have been proposed to me, will still not work. Many of the important problems are orthogonal to what is being fixed. > > And not all > other OS's have unified VM and buffer caches. > Most OSes (for servers/workstations) competing with FreeBSD that don't have merged caches are missing a major capability. (IMO, are broken.) > > Implemetnation of a > common API must take into account the lowest common denominator, or > you will be creating a FreeBSD specific API that is not generally useful. > My concept can support that, and has been well thought out. However, it is frightening that someone might still stay with the old, broken 'bp' approach that is guaranteed to limit flexibility and capability. A 'bp' is too concrete, but so is a 'vnode' as it is today. Given a choice, I would keep the concept of a 'vnode' though. (At least the notion of a 'vnode' can be abstracted such that the current usage isn't damaging.) > > > FS stacking will not help to gain commercial work, but properly working > > reasonbly sized file I/O does. > > It is (or should be, since the announcement on these lists last week) > well known that Veritas is porting to Linux. > Good for them. > > This code would work in FreeBSD as well, if the Linux and FreeBSD > VFS stacking frameworks were identical API's. > Just don't adopt a broken scheme that doesn't support networked layers. > > Because the API's are not identical (in fact, both are sufficiently > fluid and architecturally damaged as to render them nearly useless), > this work is bound to be another checkmark in the Linux column that > will remain absent from the FreeBSD column. > If I ever get to implement an API, it will be very clean and not limited by the type of scheme that FreeBSD has. > > > > Why was LFS broken, and then not fixed? > > > > It was always broken, and has always been basically a festering mess. > > I think Margo Seltzer would take some issue with this. I would trust > her authority as an FS expert above that of anyone in the core team; > after all, file systems are her life's work. > Don't set up a disgreement between me and her. All it takes is a competent programmer to see that the code is a mess. Maybe some of her ideas are great, but the implementation is pretty messy. It even does copying to build the segments, and is limited by the way it uses the buffer cache :-(. Hack alert. (I have written my share of messy code, so it takes one to know one :-)). A complete reimplementation of what exists, plus an intelligent cleaner would be necessary to bring it up to the quality of FFS. With the work of re-creating it, and implementing a really good cleaner (that might do 'fsck' in background), it would end up being at best, very slightly better than ffs with softupdates. In most areas, there would be no gain. You seem to confuse the fact that an idea isn't an implementation. It is the implementation that I think is inadequate. It doesn't take an expert to see that (and only assume that you haven't looked at or worked on the code because you don't know about all of its problems) the code is "rough." If I had my druthers, I would prefer a journaled filesystem, and leave softupdates for most of the applications that a LFS would be useful for. > > > It is totally wrong to implement a bp > > based LFS anyway, note the hacks in vfs_bio to support that travesty. > > With respect, these are historical artifacts that also applied to > the FFS of the same code vintage, and which predate the unification > of the VM and buffer cache code. This is a case of failure to cross > "T"'s and dot "I"'s during the VM and buffer cache unification wherein > the equivalent FFS issues *were* addressed. Code does not mutate. If > code stops working, it is a failure in maintenance, not a failure of > the code (presuming it worked beforehand -- and LFS did; it merely > lacked a cleaner process to deal with issue like garbage collection > and fragmentations -- issues addressed in later versions of Margo's code). > I kept the code somewhat compatible with the original vfs_bio for the reason that there is a chance to grab technology from other versions of *BSD. For example, if I would have made a 100% break, the chance of applying other *BSD softupdates would have been much smaller. There were some subtile incompatbilities, but much of it seemed to be the fact that FreeBSD doesn't need 'bp's for caching. (People kept on forgetting the fact that FreeBSD logically, FreeBSD doesn't need 'bp's to support caching -- they are for I/O.) Converting FFS would take me a few hours (okay, a couple of days.) > > > > Which version? and please PR it. I have *never* seen it in person recently, > > and locally hacked kernels can cause unexpected brokenness. The problem > > of modified programs has been fixed a long time ago. Also, it has taken > > awhile to find someone competent to work on the VM/VFS code. There > > is a possibility now, but most of the people with the "balls" to work > > on the code with commit frenzies, are often not careful enough to do so. > > I believe Matt has much of this in hand. > Actually certain others seem to really understand the code. The most recent problem was only a few days ago, and just running silly benchmarks would have caught that problem. > > I had to fincd explicity > demonstration cases for the people who didn't feel like bothering to > try to follow my theoretical arguments, and refused to work from > anything but concrete exa