From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 19 00:00:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F7A2B15A0 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 00:00:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wfdudley@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494VMn1hzWz47sT for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 00:00:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wfdudley@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id a2so1005901oia.11 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:00:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:cc; bh=6TsWwY9rBASsVwjFUFK3S9g6N1Ky/WEFneE8lTYMs+s=; b=h8JmUdesrwnwhBa3J911UYJ0mYEBoR4PVPGZmYIPfSqWB020+0V/aX0qurrZ4nJQQJ qzsDaTc0CqXMgzC7tHzn5wEmGXQKRG/GLt+MwGze3xTK3cCU5NW1wKtUlDs8lcsFokO5 ewWdC5OeI7TRVL61xPy/C10UvGNAs1VgOBxl345oz062sCiH+t+iPQFq5bPlo/Ndh0Yr BtCHS65iIq/z4vQX+jBjLJkIBJ9YebXddpy9StSUWzpoMe5PV4AlpJ8bXQ5aBZfREblG XzR1kH5NVFIh0FwDRFn4Izs6dKjPb0IK80mn9+FcN7Lafl1ZSefR+naDXlQvFk6pPm/p LK+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:cc; bh=6TsWwY9rBASsVwjFUFK3S9g6N1Ky/WEFneE8lTYMs+s=; b=uGx1yhAs9arWuQ8jV3/2rNBfaM69rjZ09wU3q8vZ7dUwUrUj5zoXIvrTdyypwwr9od yxCHr7pBtdg2TGDJarcx1ncqcFEGEA/JuDZGztNNiv6ER+Q666mA8yDnr8VxCq3WV7em 9oJoJj036lFtQ9snEHX9TcdHT5CQf6FQ/zqMk2schvK5fY6g6es7SgHXj6Yc0eNJbwE6 NQkieG0OGkCaIpRX/6D9UOhTHejRfTEkEOwg+3SSQQ3A7LHthSM3SsQMOcG/Qt7PScy7 dtQVSIJFdQNSgXRyJX4Wa4JrxeU/NvrgVYF8j2RkR3M8/soaZHDl5ZpDEt9HbkvdDoTk e8ag== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY6gZM737ZIi4urNysPkPRSjnzdHAZXo6cWwBQOvhOh6pxaocsn wb92Vz4vN4Wswhbi/wgCthgowN7u2nDfKAMNuXWh3P/z X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLWDJPvitMpF/J1ensVFR0COLzW5uMy9OZq1ty246TPqE5lpxpAIPnwTGf+E1T7Sf7p704SP3WWY+4vjelJwfk= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4bc2:: with SMTP id y185mr6403122oia.164.1587254435457; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:00:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> <20200417125102642315039@bob.proulx.com> In-Reply-To: <20200417125102642315039@bob.proulx.com> From: William Dudley Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:00:23 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? Cc: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494VMn1hzWz47sT X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=h8JmUdes; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wfdudley@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wfdudley@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MISSING_TO(2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.82), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 00:00:38 -0000 pkg search sc | grep spreadsheet: sc-7.16_3 Curses-based spreadsheet program Which doesn't use X. If you're comfortable with vi, you'll like sc. I used to use this as part of a larger program. Bill Dudley On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:06 PM Bob Proulx wrote: > > Bob Willcox wrote: > > What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as my intended > > use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and their cost and > > have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. > > For such things I have been using 'ledger'. It's in the package > database. (Although I personally use 'hledger', a friendly fork, more.) > > $ pkg search ledger > ledger-3.1.1_18 John Wiegley's command line accounting program > > You can learn more about such tools here. > > https://plaintextaccounting.org/ > > Something like ledger (or hledger) might be exactly what you want. > > Bob > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 19 13:08:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDECC2C57DC for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:08:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: from rancor.immure.com (108-84-10-9.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.84.10.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "darth.immure.com", Issuer "darth.immure.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494qsC3xYKz4FPt for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:08:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: from rancor.immure.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rancor.immure.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03JD8ecZ021710 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:08:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by rancor.immure.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03JD8eFN021709; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:08:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:08:40 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: William Dudley Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? Message-ID: <20200419130840.GA21649@rancor.immure.com> Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> <20200417125102642315039@bob.proulx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494qsC3xYKz4FPt X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bob@rancor.immure.com has no SPF policy when checking 108.84.10.9) smtp.mailfrom=bob@rancor.immure.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[bob@immure.com]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.28)[ip: (0.15), ipnet: 108.64.0.0/11(0.07), asn: 7018(1.23), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[immure.com]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.96)[0.960,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.998,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bob@immure.com,bob@rancor.immure.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7018, ipnet:108.64.0.0/11, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bob@immure.com,bob@rancor.immure.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:08:48 -0000 Thanks Bill, I now recall using sc many years ago and I believe that it, or its spin-off, sc-im, is exactly what I'm looking for. Bob On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 08:00:23PM -0400, William Dudley wrote: > pkg search sc | grep spreadsheet: > > sc-7.16_3 Curses-based spreadsheet program > > Which doesn't use X. If you're comfortable with vi, > you'll like sc. > > I used to use this as part of a larger program. > > Bill Dudley > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:06 PM Bob Proulx wrote: > > > > Bob Willcox wrote: > > > What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as my intended > > > use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and their cost and > > > have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. > > > > For such things I have been using 'ledger'. It's in the package > > database. (Although I personally use 'hledger', a friendly fork, more.) > > > > $ pkg search ledger > > ledger-3.1.1_18 John Wiegley's command line accounting program > > > > You can learn more about such tools here. > > > > https://plaintextaccounting.org/ > > > > Something like ledger (or hledger) might be exactly what you want. > > > > Bob > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Bob Willcox | It's possible that the whole purpose of your life is to bob@immure.com | serve as a warning to others. Austin, TX | From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 19 12:09:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6201D2C3F64 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:09:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oi1-x241.google.com (mail-oi1-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494pXf3VCWz48xY for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:09:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oi1-x241.google.com with SMTP id k9so6331617oia.8 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 05:09:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZwhIX1nv97rlWtjvihQiElrzUJ1BT9Nl3okC5yo6YSQ=; b=EVkNCyw1aIt4k2EphUqjIDSVhkrn6plJzW5Me6d2cGJePyxPAuYGpAxwA2pWOv8Irw /H9AuEgPFnynIQK9ndqiqI6xqpAdLcPFn07YrbEubTkrotkUMUHp29bbzzAdeXkAFTs+ qwpiT7ltmZyeYIpfZ5tqkFzK/iBL2AU60xV5GZ8ArpTH4rlp0I2+/cq7EN+5UxQ/daU0 mY6DMp1ZQoVuZ+FiQLceG/F1A7O5OcvQxJ3D9JXnu9Slj0vIuRGyC2nIx2+tGWbN+/Yh uIec71OSXGXLSzUJHtYaPo/oNvJscEqbIBQH2KLeaFJQDzbW+f8umubNASNlH9UQtkXw qE3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZwhIX1nv97rlWtjvihQiElrzUJ1BT9Nl3okC5yo6YSQ=; b=lYmsBe2vOn3N08uZDEys86IfILkpQJBiI+Udo69EriKQo2IylbkxKvIoqLF8ysQnlX yPrDA5JUozH8ZENhGh7JVf2sXkteoWyqnaqE5u/AoekPZUKoXbedT/9zddnE2jbAbTbz rs+6stRO9F1qV9rp+hd3Jbfp7fVvLyVlLT+apY3/6wbJo092iEhKIAAzHt3ubU4Umq0O wuroVNKC+yDL2reFQyHlVuQVZglZ+Weh7pkNAUeLJA/cT2EpgG59OdSjV+ptGbPzZTJV 8jQ2S5yqxGDSebMs2w/NEdkXQdrbJFhl3vHjOPonxrM2fUvW7UGzJ+MBLAHDZkRqObhx XkpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ4IghDPzfBzmalf7iR02Gt3sU3B5yZ9JuD6dUuU+ir/gDxCPdf l3lsTByGr0oENjtoypB+kymNgGir2y4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL3aCIMzW6eZE9G70qCDpPs4mK8rMAAjgz/E0SS7pAZrIlZjCChG527dT5Uw3R+JXEWNvLsnA== X-Received: by 2002:aca:ddc4:: with SMTP id u187mr7788118oig.129.1587298161488; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 05:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f49.google.com (mail-ot1-f49.google.com. [209.85.210.49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o186sm9533993oia.27.2020.04.19.05.09.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 19 Apr 2020 05:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f49.google.com with SMTP id b13so5541711oti.3; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 05:09:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7ca:: with SMTP id 68mr5989874oto.267.1587298160200; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 05:09:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 14:08:50 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Cc: Jan Beich , Shane Ambler , "ngor@antonovs.family" , "raichoo@acmelabs.space" , "contact@evilham.com" , gljennjohn@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494pXf3VCWz48xY X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=EVkNCyw1; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::241) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.4.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.14)[ip: (0.10), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:43:18 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 12:09:23 -0000 On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 1:50 PM Jan Beich wrote: > Many, bsdstats.org should have some numbers from those who opted in. > wlroots-based compositors have very good support and can be tested > without leaving the comfort zone of xorg-server: > > - x11-wm/cage: kiosk, good for nesting > - x11-wm/hikari: stacking with some tiling, developed on FreeBSD > - x11-wm/sway: manual tiling, often first to adopt new wlroots features > - x11-wm/wayfire: stacking with some tiling, many plugins > > Elsewhere the situation isn't as good (correct me): > - Gnome Wayland is stable upstream but not ported due to logind (from systemd) > - KDE5 on Wayland maybe buggy upstream and hasn't been QA'd on FreeBSD by kde@ team yet > - Enlightenment in ports/ currently fails to build with Wayland support > - Weston port is abandoned due to being poor fit for day-to-day usage > > I'm using Sway myself primarily with X11 applications. For example, > "vblank_mode=0 glxgears" shows 3x more FPS than on real Xorg server. ;) I am working on Enlightenment 0.23.1 that has Wayland support, its full featured WM with long tradition, works not stable, second new life sparked recently, the patch has been updated (big thank you to Shane Ambler), the new version should show up in the port tree shortly :-) https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245596 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245594 I can see there is already a Wayland community here in FreeBSD why don't we update WIKI to make it work ouf of the box if its that good as people say?? :-) I have no access to edit WIKI and I am really surprised it seems dead.. What better place to keep frequently updated as central point of information? External forums like Linux? :-( PLEASE BRING BACK THE FREEBSD WIKI TO LIFE :-) Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 19 15:01:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C2D27852C for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:01:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494tLv0NqJz4QGC for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:01:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id z17so5776628oto.4 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:01:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X7Z4/bFgWkOFpW7wvvc9aS5AA/oVV9567dToGZqtSKQ=; b=jkJeG+aSSlJoEEHWqylB4/K0ytz9O1cSX432OxA1Ld5vEBqySzqK+eLzDd4qTKnNpw ZXeuHiFPidTD0qhtrRVpndJCDPLmWrX7cjJYznypiO8TACkBR4Ez99XPwaHbD66brAr7 NB09mGi0Q7OuGmFti/6vHygJut6bVJiIHaBfAqEC3V9mxpcWM2eBMfHA6loE9180EgDC EFZ7OkWun2HWNGWAgT3plK1HnlODFRiQ0ODXPZz9mXwCjs9xmIvn8YJuzpggdwugZmKI UVc7/eCbeY33k5OcxYGG8OJK9J/R+5dOeR+ae6QVJTCM0ACKMMyOvrG5KRkS4TdsoYL7 9Dew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X7Z4/bFgWkOFpW7wvvc9aS5AA/oVV9567dToGZqtSKQ=; b=PxsS+K2XgbCTsk9FvKhja1fS8AcAiEWaV7dX+05jQyitpewa21GcIhQx6LymDkLhUe KFfyjCl0LPzEpl49KFK5iuDftbNFSU9bHmArZey6X/ARfoQx/aW6MKexS6jcnP0DA98o D6ngaGNi+Ew9eAvosm2pEuGtnQYh8xv8sRqToiLpuhXjvIMVH38Y1uflMt85meL86xyq KdkerKiG5RynnHzlfOuXgRvxcNOgtqN3m04FBZcfxd9F1/ktSBbHb1u8CQlJ32kjP5ho YfW62BEhSPF03eI8csoAW+W903U9XVPFEv0xNSMt0UzBPhHFM2cQJno3tOaWHNk9uYW2 6vkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYcezjNnceOSaXc0ectIqyK8h28jwQhSyQoVbCMNzx0nakxK8uA jD2E0W2Z6wU6ucHYvSdrHot5lyTrgQc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL5GpKLUOcVfc8Gm9NOxtw0eQ6/i557ge2N3F2K2B1/qau69SPVX0Il/TpVUyb/u1eIY0DrZQ== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:923:: with SMTP id 32mr6601852otp.104.1587308469829; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f175.google.com (mail-oi1-f175.google.com. [209.85.167.175]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p13sm1786644oom.34.2020.04.19.08.01.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f175.google.com with SMTP id o7so4811993oif.2; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:6184:: with SMTP id v126mr7658142oib.168.1587308468276; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:01:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:00:37 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Cc: Jan Beich , Shane Ambler , "ngor@antonovs.family" , "raichoo@acmelabs.space" , "contact@evilham.com" , gljennjohn@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494tLv0NqJz4QGC X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=jkJeG+aS; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.08 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[b.2.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.78)[ip: (-8.10), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:43:29 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:01:12 -0000 On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 2:08 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > I am working on Enlightenment 0.23.1 that has Wayland support, its > full featured WM with long tradition, works not stable, second new > life sparked recently, the patch has been updated (big thank you to > Shane Ambler), the new version should show up in the port tree shortly > :-) > > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245596 > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245594 Any help to run Enlightenment on Wayland FreeBSD is welcome :-) Enlightenment depends / runs on EFL. Version 0.23.1 works now stable on Xorg FreeBSD (sorry for the typo above) it was freezing randomly with curent 0.22.4 version (known bug). Did not test on Wayland yet, but but it is transitioning from Xorg to Wayland: https://www.enlightenment.org/ -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 19 20:08:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D340D2A89B7 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:08:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x344.google.com (mail-ot1-x344.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::344]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49519H0Y1tz3QJY for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:08:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x344.google.com with SMTP id k21so6257463otl.5 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:08:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2LBPh9AwIbkDFZWJOnKLN1rgg1sxpv944b0TYH1sJJw=; b=P+mnae7FzkDRtn5JiR1vcrla2WaDP8+/XTYh3S7E1oEydVdEXKhBW6Hi3azAeJcdnm XpTlW8beBug17IQwXM6+29BITQhOknFYOjvQaZh4D6jJAB1lK4UbaaEk0nZ71K11VX+g hXI3ti0MMHHf0OZv04+7nM6FV4o0pAYFs0iB7lRa3eVvh/gP9oU2Kps5m4tLmbmVHhCV 0/ewJW8XpOyfJT7KrijRzbVdXgTK3WyeUtdcfYQUWTA0roUwpvR0USP7gjfuVwDlPrqA jcUJltrsC5Z0Wqb4rMaoT9+v1rJKtcKxoAiWJSDUw/JB8x4E7fZ5fNipjPvvySt5nhqK w8PQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2LBPh9AwIbkDFZWJOnKLN1rgg1sxpv944b0TYH1sJJw=; b=D1e7NENApRDJd6yU2O3YiM1Xorrs9FvGQQ5kAfkHyPa3gFQTH1NTv0hObakFhrPdXz 9uWNtdtQFJpo7WnRaEqf81CNqzTm+IcJS9rraQ6AYd1p/+2G/WJoUbCmnoKFr5BUhQml gG0EidG+wAl5qYHatvRq8V5KjOQ17wes2KIzQ6y1/fq2bB3ODn72GXc2tj8p4VLCwwbP jekeEzg3xtdwp29BeRO22+m8eScCKR+6RBqN/ZQx+HDbeZkHTcz0VwK14kOz91DcrpeJ sxYZg2W+3l63YabsLnKBR5BQzlQpNkQujq0YOUiCLI0i4BmlFixWHgQDkeEBtzfiniUv ysKw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub1V9krnybo8B0FCikF1EseAGqed6/3fbhA4NILxE3Om+C7N4UO 4ayzfDv0VR9chqdAyBCR71t24g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKkRzQIOV6b3DUXATWvG7Do3auRVJ3Xz0MSkCT50ApG8R8ZySKGfF/36VNGxsoXsx2nRRvT2A== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2da7:: with SMTP id g36mr6762718otb.57.1587326898047; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f50.google.com (mail-ot1-f50.google.com. [209.85.210.50]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n2sm7862126oom.18.2020.04.19.13.08.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f50.google.com with SMTP id m18so6233413otq.9; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6046:: with SMTP id v6mr6597698otj.6.1587326896883; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:08:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200419191821.GA3478@lonesome.com> In-Reply-To: <20200419191821.GA3478@lonesome.com> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:07:47 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Mark Linimon Cc: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , "ngor@antonovs.family" , Shane Ambler , "contact@evilham.com" , Jan Beich Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49519H0Y1tz3QJY X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=P+mnae7F; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::344) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.08)[ip: (0.41), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:53:31 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:08:19 -0000 On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 9:18 PM Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 02:08:50PM +0200, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > PLEASE BRING BACK THE FREEBSD WIKI TO LIFE :-) > > This is simply rude. > mcl Hello Mark, you may be right, and I am sorry if you find my call to action rude - just take a different look - during only last two days several people showed up signalling active interest in Wayland on FreeBSD. WiKi last update is 2018. No word on Handbook. Some words on Forums. Looks like world is shifting from Xorg to Wayland. There are even people willing to participate in Wayland development so FreeBSD can benefit. Isn't that an opportunity? I always considered WIKI to be the best place for Work-In-Progress documentation. I would prefer not to scatter the information over the web ("the linux way"). Why don't we update WIKI and make it more open to the community? What better medium could you recommend? Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 00:34:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4071E2B041C for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:34:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49573s6RHbz4HTr for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:34:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id w6so3762120ilg.1 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:34:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0Fr7ELP81txyz6JqIceFETg6mShzi0U/DDtSIN05GcY=; b=ckJv3mizpinLof5+9jP62wtIqnK8MPnc3y4EiBsjYcjX52T6LS/GGKLbuEM26CSXer dsQ0SFCbWz541JYjv3jyzNxS/P/MEsNHYXerIpUXaRkcWDaUkEx3v1s4MG6vqts3/frI vHPI6HpZLuSIyp5VxFwfO4eeTvmP49783OpSyHKWnEVqURB/Qf1yF3d7gqT5zwVWcBJk WoLGUQHELt2x/CvPs9aEakZTNhykCU6hhPDhkqIo4xGcuy5PWiVryChlmvibmLi1jUe2 chk6HKQVIXut9cvO5uzeER6v2B3H0EgQRelRadpKVOxlvjcH3kJEPmbugbCfiIiAU2oA VTbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0Fr7ELP81txyz6JqIceFETg6mShzi0U/DDtSIN05GcY=; b=CGbnx3Eoc09nqpicIXMVCWL4jHe8nkyKa2ojIfroXjTBP0acHPYxNm6FZb/83nFZbP FCmp2mxgzefP/QUYoN/dEWNjVTSyURmmnqQIEJxeeCoSFh//NupNJtASDSSAHVapiWmB TuiGgrjFsOlVuLPCAbx2yfHd+vitv189vwa/6z4qZcKOEmtrX4HQOmEQo0OIsSwguKAI /B880ntklp8x3O9Q8AXV0Z+peKvYSLVaz9IO443Qvl1vmwk1ykFYplbrLwFnenuDIBnB WrkptSIEYOXKWszs8YOG5AA/uH4IlFsndTVSGw7OX7GQwfg7h030wCD0OkimmOjJOsxk uXPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuarqkfUCAlFgXjF8d0Xyh/dh39xlQ1QHhUJj8AynMXWsPgH4vC3 XsVWYlki6Qxh6Xr5wA2A3HEDXSEOs0hT6cLhzBS+4JrRPx0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJgO97NUtfdFerimfYtamc4/mDXDuSkPlZiNQB9D6zUuCCmdyd9aTOe61t2XeMH962AVGTUONhV5jHq2GfovBM= X-Received: by 2002:a92:7ed2:: with SMTP id q79mr14175107ill.81.1587342840658; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:34:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <20200419234351.GA88082@neutralgood.org> In-Reply-To: <20200419234351.GA88082@neutralgood.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:33:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49573s6RHbz4HTr X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ckJv3miz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.57), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:34:04 -0000 On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:44 PM Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 09:31:30AM -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality > of > > GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to > give > > up all claims over how their work is used would likely unconstitutional. > > US courts generally prefer to make narrower decisions, and if a case can > be settled without answering constitutional questions then that's probably > what the court would do. I seriously doubt a court would say anything at > all about the constitutionality of the GPL. > Of course they would likely use normal copyright law but the constitution is why IP law is federal but contract law is state. > > FSF knows this and that is why they highly recommends you to assign all > > intellectual property rights to FSF and/or the original author. > > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#AssignCopyright > > I'm not going to waste time on that page. I'll just throw this in: > > One can only fight in court if one has "standing". The FSF has no standing > to fight in court over violations of the license on code that, for example, > I wrote. To establish standing the FSF needs something like holding the > rights themselves. There standing is obvious if the agreement is found to be null and void in one case then it is likely weaken any claims any other user of the license makes (including FSF) thus if it was a class action suit then it is more then certain they would be included in the injured class. Also since the license it self is copyrighted by FSF any violations of it would be copyright infringement on the license it self (since the license is required to be included with any code you right). So showing standing is trivial. If you had read the page that you purposely skipped you would see they make roughly the same argument and even though a federal judge interpreting state law declared in a non-UCC state that GPL was a contract they also said that FSF had defacto standing in all cases involving GPL. https://perens.com/2017/05/28/understanding-the-gpl-is-a-contract-court-case/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 01:17:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552BD2B178A for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "gal.iecc.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49582G6yS1z4LjN for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:17:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johnl@iecc.com) Received: (qmail 69795 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2020 01:17:36 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=110a1.5e9cf830.k2004; bh=CTuu4/FWDQ5e0VfzyPzirzqtHZnrdxITAGKsjTfCV8c=; b=kUeVqFmAIShmIciD8UWN1LW7w+BSuKsNcesE/PiDfAQypHdlI0ofyezUkTpPdAmfWc+wdyJIE0esO5hSUEcYPa41Sxv5MKh/l3dFVtQqdW32GV3/KNXA2mi/HXMzlGYf38bbgVJ9y5jcIX0FOf10Gs3r3d1keS1sOob7BXxOBG62TdLrL4O2C/DouoP5YzZu3XdWAFwE5VBz3CiI9mRzEtajODYePRpP9SCxJouI15xcjBgaMHU1rn5pVt95Wpwf Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 20 Apr 2020 01:17:35 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6448818053ED; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 21:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: 19 Apr 2020 21:17:34 -0400 Message-Id: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: aryeh.friedman@gmail.com Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49582G6yS1z4LjN X-Spamd-Bar: -------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=iecc.com header.s=110a1.5e9cf830.k2004 header.b=kUeVqFmA; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=iecc.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of johnl@iecc.com designates 2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=johnl@iecc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-8.14 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[iecc.com:s=110a1.5e9cf830.k2004]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_MED(-2.00)[iecc.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.4.2]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:1f07:1126::/64]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[iecc.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[iecc.com,none]; IP_SCORE(-3.64)[ip: (-9.90), ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.65), asn: 6939(-3.60), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:17:44 -0000 In article you write: >Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality of >GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to give >up all claims over how their work is used would likely unconstitutional. I'd suggest not playing junior lawyer. The GPL is a contract and there have been successful cases to enforce it. Nobody has any inherent right to use GPL'ed software (or any other software not released into the public domain) so if you don't like the terms, don't use it. I am not crazy about the GPL and one of the things I like about FreeBSD is that most of it has much more reasonable licenses. R's, John From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 01:35:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A292B20E3 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:35:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd44.google.com (mail-io1-xd44.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4958QT4QtVz4N5j for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:35:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd44.google.com with SMTP id f19so9212369iog.5 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:35:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=W6Zf9KXPLqLiiywrdXAlKpOIRmaVrA64tVdku6QKzV0=; b=Ou6VXVu68ZzaraPiClGwBGjZ046VyM0OdKazTv3qXiUxy9AAr660mlIseZRNOYULU/ oVFNk+hSzN6Shhyxn4buEk2laQP93uiW3nZNgt4ygpvC6BHDVILuVyRh7Lb9SujRai6W oxCINW0dTD4b7N+hGVmZuYggg0LbKkjD4Vi9TH2CuwjTgAR7k0zlX/CQJgz36HsMnnYc 5SQaMYKeLvN8kySvmdVZE34fWt5aaWctnMPPklRLV0Cr98jPQp/ITA/Sm4ClR8I4s+6r wHkEsYtno/zamEafRuqo+gTFlgznTmtPRg6b6Ec+9/mJkXamDzEJtBLBtvWOO0hoqpnn wtvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=W6Zf9KXPLqLiiywrdXAlKpOIRmaVrA64tVdku6QKzV0=; b=d2Jt/5VQrByU+EOWRnDjJIyUCii6XqTCBABBDIhN2SKTia/6IrQjZs0j9SgoceNbwH 2Nen9SflIwC+j2e+LUJPv83bvxepF20YvHe6gJ8eE28uZXR6pz0fJuXGss/N7S3f+yGt 64M6XgQvvLefHH954WOmIxxBs+5mQ0vcIsvYDoAoQyrbinTsoqmG8QQ8QSmYIF6dzIi3 a236UDjJH61SC6ASEpGlKzp2QPYZY/aEx6K1JBHRuek8kAeF2GYeZoWjVqb7atI1zk7K H8JSOroM++5YF6I5UIC3DDKkHoZFdy8c2IM6ZdRX1oDwR9Su+NKOS6MKO8bCZDZjluHM t5EQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubP6JmrbfkVugBcBKud7hnWULFoLChCm/ryAI/h5bGlEm2wCg9g JMovESm6DAeKPclJx6cTJWUmKbldbZgS3/peFC3qKn7VFLQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKwwFFy5AV6qaq3Jf40aeHgYv7ldUrKF8OE1E3k2yja9ItFDgQqN4luUHd1sLz8vxE+3KQ5B8jbfVftqhNEWR4= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:fc0d:: with SMTP id r13mr13220016ioh.89.1587346512449; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:35:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 21:35:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: John Levine Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4958QT4QtVz4N5j X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Ou6VXVu6; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.23), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:35:15 -0000 On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 9:17 PM John Levine wrote: > In article yx-xSo0gdsVgAoA7fUn8oRq3173covquHNw61kBJQ@mail.gmail.com> you write: > >Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality > of > >GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to give > >up all claims over how their work is used would likely unconstitutional. > > I'd suggest not playing junior lawyer. The GPL is a contract and > there have been successful cases to enforce it. Nobody has any > inherent right to use GPL'ed software (or any other software not > released into the public domain) so if you don't like the terms, don't > use it. > There is major disagreement if it is a contract or an license (the two are not the same) see the wikipedia article on legal status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Legal_status ... the only thing we know for sure is a non-UCC state (which may or may not set a precident in a UCC state) says it is a contract but other courts have held it is not a contract per se (legally binding license but not a contract). The key difference is what court (state or federal) has say over it and if a contract is possible without consideration on both sides (many implied contracts are not contracts for example a parking facility that is has no implied contract with the owner of a car for theft or damage). > > I am not crazy about the GPL and one of the things I like about > FreeBSD is that most of it has much more reasonable licenses. > If you read the full context of my comments you would see I more then "not crazy about GPL" my self.... thus all my comments are not designed to defend GPL just to point out that many common interpretations of what it allows and not allows are incorrect. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 01:39:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5E52B22EF for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:39:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oo1-xc34.google.com (mail-oo1-xc34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4958Vx3r22z4NNC for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:39:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oo1-xc34.google.com with SMTP id t12so1391763oot.2 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:39:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=V2oNRt2ZpE7vmYBReLMs31q7VdQL5UdLcbG624ByaWs=; b=XIJ6/tOdlAus41rVOIPqy7z3y23CjUMFX8yeAKDAhKDwZ8ytP6AHNbtqydwMiGkZQB w30Ut4OYRYQm6w43C+3xa4KdP7UpZZgN+dS/pE2rZ4uMYLoprZjK9sNEBSaHX3U7XZnX HszDNPUpxylMIV393+dvIOmzb3gIRPgvyGpo8B6XMkQr9yC8jpVZ8chqlZjWjP0F0H7Y u5rWC5WP61CKXv8pyX8JcJ2y3Mgcjw39NAzvZ4Lzfw05VkpsLg6lY9mb24AFZgzcqu3d d6ixZJKJ7CKOVSVbed9QkOMKDW8QPmnO1/cQUqzIhLtHlhJ3enKeTsu4PczrQZCRzhnF gXtA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=V2oNRt2ZpE7vmYBReLMs31q7VdQL5UdLcbG624ByaWs=; b=XGm6pt6gX5Cg8OHoMIF2hWiNnsza29XmP+wBTuS7whWYaVg/kXbjWp7iQ01jdlNLUP m3T4DKuVVitXWj3xaXmEDh8geSZHnXodJF2mdxUMpw/H697PDM5GAT4hjtyNTmBY1Hd/ C3Q+eNDr3N/FRa5wWlyZRpLLuI4rZqZ8t4Q105lKg/jjm7/vyfl0XjShnDEl75mxLwWC 8jP4txpGwLjOSt/OOAtTR2eBtHADm8k+o+jO+1Iu5F+wuML4tOsPKdeFUG2OeEHEnfiJ k7VtAlyxBYzISQmHYCp1uHcozUpNuLaOJ3AKTtkqX6aAWE7oCpfuvDN/Uje1k7irz01O pQrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubvlFGeaxEakEnyziCg7JEUvsKjdbFRaSJeDHVxzky5dNaFoDz8 oCLddz8fPb0g/ARDUb1C9EaDb4HsLJA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJ45gaFm6TtA1zf9S3479FHoJxs4FgEv4p667lQyhyKacpuTjTacEkCx+U5ILRMI261F4Kf9A== X-Received: by 2002:a4a:ba0b:: with SMTP id b11mr9378020oop.44.1587346744148; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f43.google.com (mail-ot1-f43.google.com. [209.85.210.43]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q15sm10001687otk.78.2020.04.19.18.39.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f43.google.com with SMTP id m18so6701402otq.9; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:39:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6847:: with SMTP id c7mr5785123oto.159.1587346743086; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:39:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 03:38:33 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4958Vx3r22z4NNC X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=XIJ6/tOd; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c34) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.97 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.3.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.67)[ip: (-7.54), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:39:06 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 10:34 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > I would like to use Enlightenment (0.23.1) + Wayland. I did manage to run Wayland + Hikari so Wayland works on FreeBSD :-) Ports version is 1.18 and lags behind only one release (1.20 is 1.19 with some readme added). I would prefer to stick to Enlightenment and its running on Wayland since version 0.20. New version of Enlightenment (0.22.4 -> 0.23.1) based on EFL (1.20.7 -> 1.23.3) is already working on my machine and will show up in ports shortly: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245596 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245594 Enlightenment has and needs new Wayland support that is based on ecore_wl2 from EFL. Someone hardcoded Linux DMA code into src/lib/ecore_wl2/ecore_wl2_buffer.c and that part of EFL does not build anymore on FreeBSD (not mandatory to run on Xorg). The good news is that EFL builds with both old Wayland support (wl-deprecated switch) and new one required for Enlightenment (wl switch) when all linuxisms are commented out from ecore_wl2_buffer.c. This means if we find a FreeBSD specific replacement for those DMA transfers all should work fine..? https://github.com/Enlightenment/efl/blob/master/src/lib/ecore_wl2/ecore_wl2_buffer.c The question is whether we should use some sort of DRM / GPU related DMA code or generic BUS DMA code? I have no experience over here.. the memory is a memory but if that affects video performance I guess video framebuffer should be used directly on a video card? :-) Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 02:03:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07D82B2FBD for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:03:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49593Q58LBz4Q8N for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:03:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.139.19]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C0F54E65A for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:55:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <75f68749-10d9-9bf2-f046-a56417576d23@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 20:55:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49593Q58LBz4Q8N X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[19.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[19.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.996,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (0.30), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.15), asn: 160(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:03:47 -0000 On 4/19/20 8:17 PM, John Levine wrote: > In article you write: >> Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality of >> GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to give >> up all claims over how their work is used would likely unconstitutional. > > I'd suggest not playing junior lawyer. The GPL is a contract and > there have been successful cases to enforce it. Nobody has any > inherent right to use GPL'ed software (or any other software not > released into the public domain) so if you don't like the terms, don't > use it. > > I am not crazy about the GPL and one of the things I like about > FreeBSD is that most of it has much more reasonable licenses. John, and others. Stop arguing with troll, it never is productive. Valeri > > R's, > John > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 02:10:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5602B3276 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:10:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x144.google.com (mail-il1-x144.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::144]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4959Bl6YGqz4QSn for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:10:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x144.google.com with SMTP id u5so8270553ilb.5 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:10:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=P7xVIsszCnONEk5p8BOT+0MZt2nE3mtfg1wlno/3Sf8=; b=b3XRSmJIkZlDHolGwUspph/yGoNcX7+3o+RbBIx5ZoVgv2bApcDf55efcTXeXmxdYB h6KwDS68TSoOJa2KYLtCCYS+CA6zH0oqxYJSsqxQeJsyELrySpYcYi9JCr8xxuy2SGO/ 7+eY/73HPlvLa6Iabxn/uq27iEOdstVJkVeK+cwI4xUUdWJJoODZZdDLVbJO9Nd+wu5T qPybGOZh6nCd93d3xpNY/tzQb3CH3fovX4r/n8+zbxhXawhxrPEQwE3H1FDwYwCIKllm 1l9YfgOIhJDUdYNepWj2BnOki3ZvgKop+/YJWKRjNwMA2UDpiXo8ANMZlx3i5mQKdNsu Saag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=P7xVIsszCnONEk5p8BOT+0MZt2nE3mtfg1wlno/3Sf8=; b=Dp5jygx2+0CMqvHc+mtr0XCK//PpfkGGGDAY3p9V9vFvivTCwSnyBSmouQy/pca262 ynUm8pR/ttxfCkY0TGtQQBVe3mHPiFR6KCuQAHHiz6Z6Csd8C8KKUMQcIA8Y+OUlEhhV C/Xc1zm+c9g83gfXywNeWJIDwGn2Ajj+61E0nT3wFb1tJQkM9x1oMIkzerstnQtZoJET 24sBxSEnogMP3w52AjttuzZR7EtlS8iliMlvHHoD23Jx+pBNLnlAWb4hmTR8HIreh0EL fZrlVJ+xw8Ril4bGE5NnS0beQF5rmedUx2YNtLSp+g7zlCLDoC+NnZ9zs/N0e/1hIRXo OhNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYJASocwfHMk8lgkRjJxTFEmf0DRCeLKeAsdZNPGbFei5qzKqcX 3QFl0TuDQ/bfkwk1RnOrKMAPAW/Asr39NlDWkRI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK97Sj7PlXXYqbUwXFHdW7pqIERlpGLm15sTjhCLch6r3N6MMxlk6bA5eFVZxrm0+TghuReqdW+jXd2W9A5eQw= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d186:: with SMTP id z6mr11637487ilz.119.1587348606938; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 19:10:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:09:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: "John R. Levine" , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4959Bl6YGqz4QSn X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=b3XRSmJI; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::144 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.15), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:10:08 -0000 On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 9:59 PM John R. Levine wrote: > >> In article >> yx-xSo0gdsVgAoA7fUn8oRq3173covquHNw61kBJQ@mail.gmail.com> you write: > >>> Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the > legality > >> of > >>> GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to > give > >>> up all claims over how their work is used would likely > unconstitutional. > >> > >> I'd suggest not playing junior lawyer. The GPL is a contract and > >> there have been successful cases to enforce it. Nobody has any > >> inherent right to use GPL'ed software (or any other software not > >> released into the public domain) so if you don't like the terms, don't > >> use it. > > There is major disagreement if it is a contract or an license (the two > are > > not the same) see the wikipedia article on legal status > > Whichever it might turn out to be, it's still inane to claim there's any > sort of constitutional issue, and it's still a bad idea to play junior > lawyer. > Not true according to the US Copyright office: https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html > > over it and if a contract is possible without consideration on both sides > > You might want to read some of the clickwrap case law. > All of which says you *MUST* actively agree to the license before opening the contents. GPL makes no such requirement (it is a passive acceptance) and thus likely not quiet the same. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 05:49:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E1F2B7566 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:49:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495G4F670Zz3C6S for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:49:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id b12so9599429ion.8 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:49:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=a3AF/cJkBxLi4ocDuS2fd19gkml943+XsfjrCFKFHhQ=; b=exYrSBjhvnmXqde2dG2Qa4T/899wXRQozZvUCuDc8EwbHj32l/cd8bnESPzqB4knJZ ZAE3h+JFsgEayoBY0/nt0j2do+eg7+0JYyimMy9Q04Knjpo+WI6R39AL91MY3IzwNmrW O0MWfEF+mazQNsJmSQpZZAIYlC+5ILkuSl9B02Irsbf1Mg8Aw2c2q2/EibHGaepsRTKD 0t01yu2Ob/Y5RQffG2eSZoVCWkTPiY3ixbHaijHR2BE64fkwd3VqFNSeWD8rth8PH2Ql UuM5ae/vNqGqTTn97y+BQmorxIk8vQGzWr6fu6oXuRZa8vw6Sur6xGHtjYx9BdelSU57 iBOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=a3AF/cJkBxLi4ocDuS2fd19gkml943+XsfjrCFKFHhQ=; b=G3L+0nwCcunIjHTDq7NHAg2Qrw+kk/cKBLAugEUfR1BCh92jRI7w6RzStwrzAuQrjH ABFTPcNWar/t+5cHrTUXbqTkyqBJz/RqGyovDbIf/PwLqko3+FDRa7NfUimO+Jc2Om69 CsG/5CH5L3GsMat2aqwxsovggJ87CtyO0dYwaXF2TiX5li4H4wkedwPx161hgwVYUdyn p2ppGcV585rTt1b86zKFkbLrsH4EbvpO3g1DNF5Dxwddz1yLdUnt/lKPO01gMZjSwHJH 65eXz+ItUE1OmnxlLVrCJM5hr8uHEjk+hrcrGLvAsSatrO10MLn0tsFwwM4C4Yi+4eKc aQvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYs1dh1IpNdrUk2Egq0gqKkDBSGKrzBt9Rgup4St+uyCJC4gXom KSgwRiIlqn0m82y9iiQ0eWG0foZzkUOHt2Mqt4Vq/Si5C00= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJF3jGbWdURb+ZPhqT6NIzJu1q31OKyoazeoilBU0/i+XPJqep75+JKCaRFKMfF5ljTG2v8sha4sLMMauRGUUo= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:fc0d:: with SMTP id r13mr13792847ioh.89.1587361788266; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:49:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <20200419234351.GA88082@neutralgood.org> <20200420040640.GA23751@neutralgood.org> In-Reply-To: <20200420040640.GA23751@neutralgood.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:49:36 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495G4F670Zz3C6S X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=exYrSBjh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[15]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-5.31), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.3.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:49:50 -0000 Top posting because one comment covers the entire range of issue you raised in a one size fits all manner. According to a interview with FSF's lead council (https://lwn.net/Articles/61292/) he makes the following claims: 1. Because GPL is it self GPL'ed (yes recursive licensing) it gives FSF standing in any and all cases involving GPL regardless of copyright holder. The details have to deal with the fact that GPL is not just a copyrighted document but an (recursively) enforceable license 2. It is a license *NOT* a contract (specifically because the user gives no consideration and signs nothing) 3. Due to it being a copyright infringement (and perhaps patent issues but since GPL does not forbid the use of trademarks no other IP is involved) the jurisdiction is federal and federal only The one district court discussed below doesn't agree but no other court has weighed in one way or the other. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 12:06 AM Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 08:33:49PM -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 7:44 PM Kevin P. Neal <[1]kpn@neutralgood.or= g > > > > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 09:31:30AM -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the > > legality of > > > GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed proje= ct > > to give > > > up all claims over how their work is used would likely > > unconstitutional. > > US courts generally prefer to make narrower decisions, and if a ca= se > > can > > be settled without answering constitutional questions then that's > > probably > > what the court would do. I seriously doubt a court would say > > anything at > > all about the constitutionality of the GPL. > > > > Of course they would likely use normal copyright law but the > > constitution is why IP law is federal but contract law is state. > > Uh, banana? > > I don't dispute that copyrights and patents are generally federal because > of the part of the US Constitution that you quoted. Of course, if Congres= s > has not yet stated that copyright covers a work then copyright law for > that work falls to the states. Congress is free to extend the scope of > federal copyright, which it did multiple times in the 20th century. > > Other forms of "IP" are _not_ covered by that clause but fall under other > clauses like the interstate commerce clause. Trademark, for example. Plus= , > forms of "IP" that haven't been addressed by Congress but have been > addressed > by states are covered by state law. Likeness rights, for example. Thus a > blanket statement like "IP law is federal" is incorrect. > > My statement about courts preferring more narrow rulings stands. > > > > FSF knows this and that is why they highly recommends you to > > assign all > > > intellectual property rights to FSF and/or the original author. > > > [2]https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#AssignCopyright > > I'm not going to waste time on that page. I'll just throw this in: > > One can only fight in court if one has "standing". The FSF has no > > standing > > to fight in court over violations of the license on code that, for > > example, > > I wrote. To establish standing the FSF needs something like holdin= g > > the > > rights themselves. > > > > There standing is obvious if the agreement is found to be null and > void > > in one case then it is likely weaken any claims any other user of th= e > > license makes (including FSF) thus if it was a class action suit the= n > > it is more then certain they would be included in the injured class.= =C3=82 > > Also since the license it self is copyrighted by FSF any violations = of > > it would be copyright infringement on the license it self (since the > > license is required to be included with any code you right). =C3=82 = So > > showing standing is trivial. > > A showing of standing on the text of the license is trivial because the > FSF holds the copyright on the text of the license. That doesn't give > standing for any copyrighted parts that are not owned by the FSF. Standin= g > on the license's text does not grant standing on anything that is shipped > with the license. Well, except perhaps in that one federal district. Mayb= e. > > > If you had read the page that you purposely skipped you would see th= ey > > make roughly the same argument and even though a federal judge > > I went back and looked at those pages. The FSF says it makes it "easier" > to enforce the GPL if rights are assigned to the FSF. This statement > sidesteps explaining what "easier" is. Standing is part of the issue that > the FSF is trying to address. > > And some of the FSF's pages are written by an actual skilled lawyer and > thus are more clear than what a non-lawyer can write. We're not lawyers > here. > > > interpreting state law declared in a non-UCC state that GPL was a > > contract they also said that FSF had defacto standing in all cases > > involving GPL.=C3=82 =C3=82 > > [3] > https://perens.com/2017/05/28/understanding-the-gpl-is-a-contract-co > > urt-case/ > > That case is only perhaps binding in that district. In the rest of the > country the case at most rises to the level of persuasive precedent. If > that, since the case was settled before a final ruling was made. So don't > assume that *nationwide* the FSF has "defacto standing" on copyrighted > works > when they have no rights to the work outside of the text of the bundled > license. > > -- > Kevin P. Neal http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ > > "What is mathematics? The age-old answer is, of course, that mathematics > is what mathematicians do." - Donald Knuth > --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 06:49:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB82C2B893B; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 06:49:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clay.daniels.jr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495HPc6Cdgz3GvV; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 06:49:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clay.daniels.jr@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id x23so6975003lfq.1; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 23:49:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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Sun, 19 Apr 2020 23:49:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clay Daniels Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:49:42 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495HPc6Cdgz3GvV X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=mYnE5tk1; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of claydanielsjr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=claydanielsjr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.98), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.34), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[b.2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 06:49:57 -0000 > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:35 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Hello world :-) > > Time to move from X11 to Wayland :-) > > Not everyone is so convinced that Wayland will replace Xorg: https://www.slant.co/versus/8634/8635/~wayland_vs_x https://www.secjuice.com/wayland-vs-xorg/ https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Features/What-s-Taking-Wayland-So-Long From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 08:16:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A866E2BAA13 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:16:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from smh-06.1blu.de (smh-06.1blu.de [178.254.0.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495KKW50JWz3P3Y for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:16:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [172.16.29.5] (helo=sh4-5.1blu.de) by smh-06.1blu.de with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQRbP-0006JM-Ny for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:16:28 +0200 Received: from ftp51246-2575596 by sh4-5.1blu.de with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQRbP-0001Y9-MR for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:16:27 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:16:27 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: find(1) removes as it should a directory, but after this it complains about Message-ID: <20200420081627.GA30229@sh4-5.1blu.de> Reply-To: Matthias Apitz Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Please send only plain text. User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495KKW50JWz3P3Y X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of guru@unixarea.de has no SPF policy when checking 178.254.0.206) smtp.mailfrom=guru@unixarea.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.72 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[guru@unixarea.de]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unixarea.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; IP_SCORE(0.36)[ipnet: 178.254.0.0/19(0.92), asn: 42730(0.88), country: DE(-0.02)]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.64)[0.642,0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.93)[0.925,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[206.0.254.178.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42730, ipnet:178.254.0.0/19, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:16:32 -0000 Hello, I've stumbled over something with find(1) which I would call a bug: $ mkdir foo $ find foo -type d -execdir rm -rv {} \; foo find: foo: No such file or directory $ ls -ld foo ls: foo: No such file or directory I truss'ed the find(1) and it starts as it should a child process like 'rm -rv foo', but when this ends correctly, find tries to open again the dir foo: $ truss -f -o find.tr find foo -type d -execdir rm -rv {} \; foo find: foo: No such file or directory $ grep foo find.tr 2107: fstatat(AT_FDCWD,"foo",{ mode=drwxr-xr-x ,inode=4099842,size=512,blksize=32768 },AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW) = 0 (0x0) 2108: fstatat(AT_FDCWD,"foo",{ mode=drwxr-xr-x ,inode=4099842,size=512,blksize=32768 },AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW) = 0 (0x0) 2108: access("foo",W_OK) = 0 (0x0) 2108: open("foo",O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_DIRECTORY|O_CLOEXEC,03) = 4 (0x4) 2108: rmdir("foo") = 0 (0x0) 2108: write(1,"foo\n",4) = 4 (0x4) 2107: open("foo",O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_DIRECTORY|O_CLOEXEC,03) ERR#2 'No such file or directory' 2107: write(2,"foo: No such file or directory",30) = 30 (0x1e) Is this by intention? matthias -- Matthias Apitz, ✉ guru@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-176-38902045 Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub May, 9: Спаси́бо освободители! Thank you very much, Russian liberators! From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 08:24:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570AD2BAD3B for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:24:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ngor@antonovs.family) Received: from mail.antonovs.family (mail.antonovs.family [100.25.240.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.antonovs.family", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495KWC36DXz3Pfj for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:24:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ngor@antonovs.family) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=antonovs.family; s=20200215; t=1587371087; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=KB7N8BjBbOWqOw5HUS+8b5Axj4/hLNzbUn1Vp8oYMx0=; b=Y6CX3h0mvlOxT0FGNH0mcfL1nGDfJBqjpenaXm/8N7hJ1ksXaXertemxAdRRoPeqDSCTlI BGV9O3LQU8t4//Swhkwpg69CeNko6F5t2nvx+5TXC+9qLb6oeAzORi2QYYZgwJSJQax3z3 6knnpOKJs+zwhUprRJ8zAz4eQVcZFO8= Received: by mail.antonovs.family (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id faabe412 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:24:47 +0000 (UTC) From: Ihor Antonov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: ihor@antonovs.family Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:24:43 -0700 Message-ID: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495KWC36DXz3Pfj X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=antonovs.family header.s=20200215 header.b=Y6CX3h0m; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=antonovs.family; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ngor@antonovs.family designates 100.25.240.195 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ngor@antonovs.family X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.29 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[antonovs.family:s=20200215]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[ihor@antonovs.family]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLYTO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[antonovs.family:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[antonovs.family,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-3.29)[ip: (-8.99), ipnet: 100.24.0.0/13(-4.37), asn: 14618(-3.02), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; CTE_CASE(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14618, ipnet:100.24.0.0/13, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:24:56 -0000 On Sunday, 19 April 2020 23:49:42 PDT Clay Daniels wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:35 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > Hello world :-) > > > > Time to move from X11 to Wayland :-) > > > Not everyone is so convinced that Wayland will replace Xorg: > https://www.slant.co/versus/8634/8635/~wayland_vs_x > > https://www.secjuice.com/wayland-vs-xorg/ > > https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Features/What-s-Taking-Wayland-So-Long > _______________________________________________ That is exactly what I wanted to say, but kept my mouth shut, but since you started :) I apologize upfront for this, but after reading FreeBSD mailing lists for a while I just can't read this any more like this is something normal. Here it comes: Yes X is old and insecure. There are literally 2 developers still supporting it and both work for Red Hat. They have already announced that they are going to stop supporting it soon. OpenBSD folks at least attempted to make X better, but in the end even they have admitted that X11 is "a giant keylogger". BUT FreeBSD folks are conservative bunch, some especially don't like changes that come from "linsucks". Others say that FreeBSD is a server OS. Same "server OS advocates" comfortably sit behind their MacBooks. There are ones that make a living with it so any unnecessary change at the very least is ignored or at most is actively being not welcomed. Many actively complain at their own desktop team when it tries to keep Intel GPU drivers working (which requires following Linux DRM APIs), but nobody is trying to write "proper BSD Intel drivers". Don't get me wrong, there are people (like Warner Losh) in FreeBSD who are trying to keep the OS in the present, but even they have hard time convincing people that finishing the 25-year swing on removing malloc.h is the right thing to do. Many were not happy with removing bktr(4) Brooktree Video Capture card drivers (you can't find this hardware today even on a garage sale) There are many more examples, these are just the fresh ones. Read arch mailing list, I am not making this up). A few progressive developers are outnumbered by fanatics of retro-computing. "Don't fix what is already broken" they say, "nobody uses it anyway" :P I am afraid that on FreeBSD Wayland will remain a third-class citizen. Look at sway for example: it needs Linux Kernel event API (evdev, luckily on by default in 12), epoll-shim and eudev-shim, and then some magic with barely documented kern.evdev.rcpt_mask=12 in sysctl.conf to make it work. Why? Because FreeBSD folks are generally not interested in contributing proper kqueue and devd support to "linusucks" projects. As well as maintaining X11. Linux developers are not going to write that either. The amount of linuxisms and shims is only going to grow, the desktop team is fighting an uphill battle here, there is no proper infrastructure for them to give users good Wayland support. All they can offer is shims, hacks and workarounds. And so Wayland will slowly but surely replace X in Linux world. But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X11, will keep stating that they had jails first, ZFS is cool, GPL is evil and Netflix uses FreeBSD on their servers. FreeBSD is not a general purpose OS. It is a server OS, It is retro OS. It is OS that fills the niche where closing sources is needed for commercial success. An OS you want to put somewhere and never ever touch it again. It is not a desktop OS, quoting someone from this very mailing list: "It is power to serve, not power to desktop!" > > Not everyone is so convinced that Wayland will replace Xorg. On FreeBSD it simply never will. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 08:26:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A108D2BAE53 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:26:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fernando.apesteguia@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495KY43PfRz3Pnv for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:26:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fernando.apesteguia@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com with SMTP id l25so2726632vso.6 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:26:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; 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Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:26:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200420081627.GA30229@sh4-5.1blu.de> In-Reply-To: <20200420081627.GA30229@sh4-5.1blu.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Fernando_Apestegu=C3=ADa?= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:26:20 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: find(1) removes as it should a directory, but after this it complains about To: Matthias Apitz , User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495KY43PfRz3Pnv X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=kJb4RA9Y; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of fernandoapesteguia@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=fernandoapesteguia@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[13]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.39), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.e.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:26:33 -0000 El lun., 20 abr. 2020 10:16, Matthias Apitz escribi=C3= =B3: > Hello, > > I've stumbled over something with find(1) which I would call a bug: > > $ mkdir foo > $ find foo -type d -execdir rm -rv {} \; > foo > find: foo: No such file or directory > $ ls -ld foo > ls: foo: No such file or directory > > I truss'ed the find(1) and it starts as it should a child process like > 'rm -rv foo', but when this ends correctly, find tries to open again the > dir foo: > > $ truss -f -o find.tr find foo -type d -execdir rm -rv {} \; > foo > find: foo: No such file or directory > $ grep foo find.tr > 2107: fstatat(AT_FDCWD,"foo",{ mode=3Ddrwxr-xr-x > ,inode=3D4099842,size=3D512,blksize=3D32768 },AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW) =3D 0 = (0x0) > 2108: fstatat(AT_FDCWD,"foo",{ mode=3Ddrwxr-xr-x > ,inode=3D4099842,size=3D512,blksize=3D32768 },AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW) =3D 0 = (0x0) > 2108: access("foo",W_OK) =3D 0 (0x0) > 2108: open("foo",O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_DIRECTORY|O_CLOEXEC,03) =3D 4 (0x= 4) > 2108: rmdir("foo") =3D 0 (0x0) > 2108: write(1,"foo\n",4) =3D 4 (0x4) > 2107: open("foo",O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_DIRECTORY|O_CLOEXEC,03) ERR#2 'No > such file or directory' > 2107: write(2,"foo: No such file or directory",30) =3D 30 (0x1e) > > Is this by intention? > Not sure it is, but GNU find (as of findutils 4.5.12) has the same behavior= . As workaround, would -delete work fo you? find foo -type d -delete Cheers. > matthias > > > -- > Matthias Apitz, =E2=9C=89 guru@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ > +49-176-38902045 > Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub > May, 9: =D0=A1=D0=BF=D0=B0=D1=81=D0=B8=CC=81=D0=B1=D0=BE =D0=BE=D1=81=D0= =B2=D0=BE=D0=B1=D0=BE=D0=B4=D0=B8=D1=82=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=B8! Thank you very m= uch, Russian liberators! > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 09:06:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C752BBF81 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:06:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from smh-06.1blu.de (smh-06.1blu.de [178.254.0.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495LQx4llkz3yGf for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:06:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from guru@unixarea.de) Received: from [172.16.29.5] (helo=sh4-5.1blu.de) by smh-06.1blu.de with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQSNa-0007BS-Qn for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:06:15 +0200 Received: from ftp51246-2575596 by sh4-5.1blu.de with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQSNa-0007qC-OS for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:06:14 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:06:14 +0200 From: Matthias Apitz To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: find(1) removes as it should a directory, but after this it complains about Message-ID: <20200420090614.GB30229@sh4-5.1blu.de> Reply-To: Matthias Apitz Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200420081627.GA30229@sh4-5.1blu.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 12.0-CURRENT r314251 (amd64) X-message-flag: Mails containing HTML will not be read! Please send only plain text. User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495LQx4llkz3yGf X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of guru@unixarea.de has no SPF policy when checking 178.254.0.206) smtp.mailfrom=guru@unixarea.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[guru@unixarea.de]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[unixarea.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; IP_SCORE(0.36)[ipnet: 178.254.0.0/19(0.92), asn: 42730(0.88), country: DE(-0.02)]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.81)[0.810,0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.92)[0.924,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[206.0.254.178.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42730, ipnet:178.254.0.0/19, country:DE]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:06:18 -0000 El día Montag, April 20, 2020 a las 10:26:20 +0200, Fernando Apesteguía escribió: > Not sure it is, but GNU find (as of findutils 4.5.12) has the same behavior. > > As workaround, would -delete work fo you? > > find foo -type d -delete This does not purge non empty directories. matthias -- Matthias Apitz, ✉ guru@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-176-38902045 Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub May, 9: Спаси́бо освободители! Thank you very much, Russian liberators! 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Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: find(1) removes as it should a directory, but after this it complains about To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200420081627.GA30229@sh4-5.1blu.de> <20200420090614.GB30229@sh4-5.1blu.de> From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: <8d3cc614-6289-c55d-96ae-81b31941aa87@fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:09:26 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200420090614.GB30229@sh4-5.1blu.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495LVf0MWDz3yXV X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=fastmail.com header.s=fm2 header.b=XwsK5S9Q; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=PZOGC7Ct; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=fastmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ypankov@fastmail.com designates 64.147.123.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ypankov@fastmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; 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RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:09:31 -0000 Matthias Apitz wrote: > El día Montag, April 20, 2020 a las 10:26:20 +0200, Fernando Apesteguía escribió: > >> Not sure it is, but GNU find (as of findutils 4.5.12) has the same behavior. >> >> As workaround, would -delete work fo you? >> >> find foo -type d -delete > > This does not purge non empty directories. Try specifying -d (depth-first): $ mkdir -p a/b/c/d $ find -d a -type d -execdir rm -rv {} \; d c b a $ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 09:14:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92E12BC765; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:14:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from mail.daemonic.se (mail.daemonic.se [176.58.89.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495LcL5ph3z40J2; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:14:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from cid.daemonic.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495LcC23Wcz3lbm; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:14:19 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=daemonic.se; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-language:content-type :content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:date :message-id:from:from:references:subject:subject:received :received; s=20151023; t=1587373918; bh=xhp2hhw6wogtdBMxn1xRz9Fb bHtAoP6WsIpvaNsHLvs=; b=vkrEai0hA3WCx+wZ2MImQBM2HKtX9oLK0kZe872y 8eUQZw1QeyR+e1rxv+tfP5BTghY343xrAcMqqSG9GP8iL3stp2nxWeFowB+OYiXx j77u87N8Yz8Zp1XbtP/P2pdoKhMuBUjqbyCgwTEeU42wtKHRyEXfgv0YkHtDviR+ sxY= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daemonic.se Received: from mail.daemonic.se ([IPv6:::1]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by cid.daemonic.se (mailscanner.daemonic.se [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10587) with ESMTPS id HoZXfyR_a7vr; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:11:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from garnet.daemonic.se (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:dca9:201:21b9:f28e:5614:8414]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 495LY84jW8z3mCf; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:11:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Tomasz CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org References: From: Niclas Zeising Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:11:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495LcL5ph3z40J2 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=daemonic.se header.s=20151023 header.b=vkrEai0h; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=daemonic.se; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of zeising@daemonic.se designates 176.58.89.161 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=zeising@daemonic.se X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[daemonic.se:s=20151023]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-3.69)[ip: (-9.74), ipnet: 176.58.89.0/24(-4.87), asn: 36236(-3.80), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[daemonic.se:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[daemonic.se,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:176.58.89.0/24, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:14:28 -0000 On 2020-04-20 03:38, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 10:34 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: >> I would like to use Enlightenment (0.23.1) + Wayland. > > I did manage to run Wayland + Hikari so Wayland works on FreeBSD :-) > Ports version is 1.18 and lags behind only one release (1.20 is 1.19 > with some readme added). Are you referring to the wayland versions here? Looking at the source for both wayland and wayland-protocols, FreeBSD ports are at the latest versions, wayland 1.18, and wayland-protocols 1.20. 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[209.85.210.52]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i23sm72003otp.74.2020.04.20.02.38.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f52.google.com with SMTP id m13so7497546otf.6; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:38:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6046:: with SMTP id v6mr8247439otj.6.1587375503570; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:38:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> In-Reply-To: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:37:53 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: ihor@antonovs.family Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495M823Qc8z41rm X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=X/DDwMYi; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::241) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.4.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.14)[ip: (0.10), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:38:28 -0000 On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:25 AM Ihor Antonov wrote: > On Sunday, 19 April 2020 23:49:42 PDT Clay Daniels wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:35 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > > Hello world :-) > > > > > > Time to move from X11 to Wayland :-) > > > > > Not everyone is so convinced that Wayland will replace Xorg: > > https://www.slant.co/versus/8634/8635/~wayland_vs_x > > > > https://www.secjuice.com/wayland-vs-xorg/ > > > > https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Features/What-s-Taking-Wayland-So-Long > > _______________________________________________ > > That is exactly what I wanted to say, but kept my mouth shut, but since you > started :) I apologize upfront for this, but after reading FreeBSD mailing > lists for a while I just can't read this any more like this is something > normal. Here it comes: Discussion Groups / Mailing Lists are here to talk about, get knowledge, fix things, organize. There is nothing wrong with constructive critics. Look how many ideas showed up in just several last days :-) > Yes X is old and insecure. There are literally 2 developers still supporting > it and both work for Red Hat. They have already announced that they are going > to stop supporting it soon. OpenBSD folks at least attempted to make X better, > but in the end even they have admitted that X11 is "a giant keylogger". To be honest I did not realize the situation with X11 is that bad actually until recent problems with video drivers.. feedback from the lists opened my eyes a bit :-) Xorg has its benefits. I remember 15 years back (or more) connecting to my then Linux workstation over SSH from a Sun Terminal (that was something!) at the University and working like I was home :-) Wayland can offer VNC ;-) Xorg will work alongside Wayland. People will decide what tool suits their need (just as WindowManager or Web Server). It seems that Xorg reached its ceiling. Wayland seems Xorg alternative but lacks manpower and user base to get stable. Both projects are interesting and have their pros and cons. I am not convicting anyone to replace anything but to have more choices. > BUT FreeBSD folks are conservative bunch, some especially don't like changes > that come from "linsucks". Others say that FreeBSD is a server OS. Same > "server OS advocates" comfortably sit behind their MacBooks. There are ones > that make a living with it so any unnecessary change at the very least is > ignored or at most is actively being not welcomed. I can understand that and I think the same way. My work depends on it, my money depends on it, my brand depends on it. Stability and Maintenance first of all. With this conservative approach, however, it is important not to miss opportunities. I also worked on MacBookPro and switched back to FreeBSD on my main desktop. Because this false comfort always puts your money into a vendor pocket and lags you behind something that you can use as a vendor. > Many actively complain at their own desktop team when it tries to keep Intel > GPU drivers working (which requires following Linux DRM APIs), but nobody is > trying to write "proper BSD Intel drivers". If you start using it, you notice and report problems, then you get familiar with it, then you can fix it or create something new on top :-) The problem with "proper BSD drivers" is this constantly changing "linuxisms" in both software architecture and, even worse, hardware design. World does not care about good standard and incremental developments anymore, revolutionary bleeding edge breakthroughs are the new cool, so the whole world is chasing its tail now. > Don't get me wrong, there are people (like Warner Losh) in FreeBSD who are > trying to keep the OS in the present, but even they have hard time convincing > people that finishing the 25-year swing on removing malloc.h is the right thing > to do. Many were not happy with removing bktr(4) Brooktree Video Capture card > drivers (you can't find this hardware today even on a garage sale) I am total enemy of removing anything that works. Imagine we can time travel. It would be awsome to have the same FreeBSD in the future and operate it the same was as today with all those old and new features. Perect is the enemy of Good. Look at Blender, that was, right next to FreeBSD, my favorite piece of software that I used to give as an example of perfect design and vision. Until 2.80 where they castrated its core unique concept of Game Engine that was there since 1994 that I have used for simulations, because "noone used that and it was to hard to maintain", instead they re-designed the GUI, making Blender nothing more than just another 3D application. Kind of Unification.The same with GIMP Toolbar Menu around 2008 that was removed by the new UX team because "no other program acts like that" and "according to microsoft software development is about enforcing vision". I can clearly understand why people here keep their attitude conservative, why "cool kids" are opposed, why maintenance is more important than having a new bells and whistles every year. Simply because this is OS of the Creators not the Consumers :-) > There are many more examples, these are just the fresh ones. Read arch mailing > list, I am not making this up). A few progressive developers are outnumbered > by fanatics of retro-computing. "Don't fix what is already broken" they say, > "nobody uses it anyway" :P I wish I could run BSD on my Atari one day.. and you know that there is ATARI VCS coming up and we WILL run FreeBSD on it :-) :-) > I am afraid that on FreeBSD Wayland will remain a third-class citizen. > Look at sway for example: it needs Linux Kernel event API (evdev, luckily on > by default in 12), epoll-shim and eudev-shim, and then some magic with barely > documented kern.evdev.rcpt_mask=12 in sysctl.conf to make it work. It will come to life by people who use it and share the results :-) I know what kern.evdev.rcpt_mask=12 means! And I knew that from the /usr/src hahaha ;-) > Why? Because FreeBSD folks are generally not interested in contributing proper > kqueue and devd support to "linusucks" projects. As well as maintaining X11. > Linux developers are not going to write that either. The amount of linuxisms > and shims is only going to grow, the desktop team is fighting an uphill battle > here, there is no proper infrastructure for them to give users good Wayland > support. All they can offer is shims, hacks and workarounds. The problem is Xorg was created by people who understood standards. In modern world everyone thinks they are Tesla and no one cares about standard, architecture, maintenance, because they are so brilliant they don't have to. This is so childish. Maybe first steps of Xorg looked similar to this udev-devd-evdev problem because different systems tried to do the same thing differently and there is no standard yet. People want to create "something that works" in the first place, but that's not all. Wayland would eventually have to adapt to different approaches, or we will always have to follow and create workarounds glue day by day as you mention. > And so Wayland will slowly but surely replace X in Linux world. But even in 10 > years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X11, will keep stating that they > had jails first, ZFS is cool, GPL is evil and Netflix uses FreeBSD on their > servers. > > FreeBSD is not a general purpose OS. It is a server OS, It is retro OS. It is > OS that fills the niche where closing sources is needed for commercial success. > An OS you want to put somewhere and never ever touch it again. It is not a > desktop OS, quoting someone from this very mailing list: "It is power to > serve, not power to desktop!" I think these are important remarks from people that use FreeBSD in industrial applications. These are important priorities and core values. This is also why I stick to FreeBSD not Linux. And I surely use it as general purpose OS on my Servers and Desktops. Also I smile when I look at MacBooks, iPhones, PlayStations, or people watching Netflix, because people who thinks like me made their success and I find it inspiring :-) > > > Not everyone is so convinced that Wayland will replace Xorg. > On FreeBSD it simply never will. Yes. It will coexist. Because there is no need to delete anything that works well, people are free to chose what they want to use :-) Best regards!! :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 09:56:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12512BD6DF; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:56:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495MXp4DVsz43N7; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:56:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id f3so10287135ioj.1; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:56:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fO6XGZNp8iohCN/FNjBy2p1VRRqMYGnzy+Cvfimuyno=; b=QskpS8+IdIR3zZ9PpOiXzx/XQyQuhyoAWJj0W2xLhYuuqJyTDS+DGilqBzKWZwhZkv 5zNi5HeT/H0czOc/rLG6VeqyilGeeN2oHJAdq3GzB2gumSs702kBFrIEM0mYteXKpu2D 5lE+DAOmZjHrVeZZuVmEAnGR3zryKDKuz+0CrhS8IHakPDoknllqFfAIp5INBG0rWRnD 84VCxXknby/Mkefx1vIsUWhOwhLIjP5qLhIZlSLPZVJX819jgXpXlkbjmYJjP1mkQYA4 h5D79h6G9SEfbIBL/K8+Pp1S5jufkRawI7vSIRNLT88SH02E0OPv3ZdTiesgXAPVfbQ1 AvbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fO6XGZNp8iohCN/FNjBy2p1VRRqMYGnzy+Cvfimuyno=; b=YgsSafglmTyUHcLKrQvEAjLvjUIidMHMoA6zMpW7d2Wr38nqZtqD8YA9Ba4+sw7lfb cuALJyaDkBa0waWYyRPhRFkURJJthWC4/8h3lbnMs5bSK4DJClaioPUYSyPRFAmS2aiW jrPL02M3GmfAGMfGf4/pajSZNUqaAoOkchcIWhhg+0tFrFs33830AGIGLshORNTIIp2C 1GGDt5tEbs9R44tnZMXx3eYH3vyEum1Dc7+Tl4HK28xjq7v7MQPjVVSli8TgKdx8eE4t iN9TJk6BwubNtWD4Jn+v23sB/ieD/GQFgFCayAxx8kge+mrnzzuxnhMfVleUdNEz1Rdf gV2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pubs6rrLPHw4e9bsLfI5LQkqpqcCP4PZUIn1KkE9QXyFwBVivnva c0k0gCSbMUIOSE5YLv6n4DckEomzqp9UwnpBD8qO8vR4apo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKqMH18m3ttX1ggIT001P02hJMz6F7nvdRFgsOi+BdYNGGzREAbkBa+w5gSZc+geDwc8fjAYVOPzA5D5K2XBDY= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c725:: with SMTP id h5mr14490515jao.13.1587376585082; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:56:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Frederic Chardon Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:56:13 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Jan Beich Cc: Tomasz CEDRO , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495MXp4DVsz43N7 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:56:26 -0000 Le dim. 19 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 13:50, Jan Beich a =C3=A9c= rit : > > > I'm using Sway myself primarily with X11 applications. For example, > "vblank_mode=3D0 glxgears" shows 3x more FPS than on real Xorg server. ;) I decided to give it a try, is hardware acceleration supposed to work? glxgears gives 10x less fps than with X, and 3D is incredibly sluggish. eglinfo output that leads me to believe it is not: GBM platform: i965_dri.so does not support the 0xffffffff PCI ID. It is with sway, -current from yesterday, intel HD4000 iGPU (Ivybridge i5-3= 320M) no difference between drm-devel-kmod or drm-current-kmod. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 10:12:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D08B2BDE5A for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:12:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x344.google.com (mail-ot1-x344.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::344]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495Mvl1R2Nz44fT for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:12:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x344.google.com with SMTP id m18so7569238otq.9 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 03:12:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JkvzuRT4bAilELPf+wgcEqkCEkMe71D1SZUFcygdi0c=; b=MlfXhEywonkk5FuqqModO4XRQgxbPn5UdutKqbwc6tzGgNcfnbeg26YQUn//5vcp/P AeJX+orz5qZKbpVUXVnbHEkSL6lCN3L2cP8wBimRgmTWRfxjXePDtp6tEe95/bKO0boJ bNrKvzBtFjxZyDJ1l2DjSSx0/y04KFIpYt0z6XbNZv+uddv9e0Z5bZeCjp5y3/7nFMHy tMCYj56cWMR1Gh7Lnv1zpKUZ25DqNsT9j2G2ACcPAqHQW3RtR6uDWi7qAZPQ2kYskTx5 CNlYROyEpby85BA8fw/LJoPcN9uqvDTKR36e4GBhzEmPOdFbY05WZgf4F94DFUmjZfWs Bd2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JkvzuRT4bAilELPf+wgcEqkCEkMe71D1SZUFcygdi0c=; b=EXvzLYCIha6h1JxEOATo5Yb98oLfBPAmBjhuy/8Z+PuzoEw76OSPvwXXqewAPR4ZHK ttnNSQ66nx3S5EwEoVAo4TeD3w1ZK85dVJl8+LDt8CKBGqhDpRSPTjhdEInMwjGUnX9A cBHsQn0c0OHb7meuFdY8ZBWnS2pY74fzrPmsyDzQ3GPrBahhGSEu8HnjlVzDXIt4nP4W 0DNAEUz9UEOLYfLoHCgtCjQyxpRIH4nOtfATh6GC90Cbrp+V5mwLLGGKz50DFJIKI+xQ CgnShmKywhLIk2qVIADt7skek+GcU7Z7fSGB6YYN1n9X/+I+BTTj+Uv9/UTd/22ZO3g9 kjdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubMs+JY9UD40LQkvndBENURy44LVo4uhzyK5ggkJRzP7zl90bVE z0j5714pulT0SjUSPeKuVUjcdbR6qiA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJL+62KvVeNKzBJA5Zf+gdA8RC/AbG4+JK13a8StbpGP/168zmYq6F4do7MUgmiISTqKiVK+Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1b65:: with SMTP id d5mr8578448ote.141.1587377569893; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 03:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f177.google.com (mail-oi1-f177.google.com. [209.85.167.177]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f5sm156655oos.8.2020.04.20.03.12.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 03:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f177.google.com with SMTP id k133so8240373oih.12; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 03:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:f4d0:: with SMTP id s199mr9540923oih.161.1587377568929; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 03:12:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:12:19 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Niclas Zeising Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495Mvl1R2Nz44fT X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=MlfXhEyw; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::344) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.08)[ip: (0.41), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:12:52 -0000 On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:14 AM Niclas Zeising wrote: > On 2020-04-20 03:38, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 10:34 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > >> I would like to use Enlightenment (0.23.1) + Wayland. > > > > I did manage to run Wayland + Hikari so Wayland works on FreeBSD :-) > > Ports version is 1.18 and lags behind only one release (1.20 is 1.19 > > with some readme added). > > Are you referring to the wayland versions here? Looking at the source > for both wayland and wayland-protocols, FreeBSD ports are at the latest > versions, wayland 1.18, and wayland-protocols 1.20. Exactly! I mean we are really up to date but there seems no use of it yet..? People (including me) are confused with Xorg drivers while there may be totally better solution right next to it :-) I am new to Wayland, I saw some really minimalistic WM for it, but I know Enlightenment, it is known to work on Wayland, and this is the beautiful fully featured WM that we all know from Xorg. This could provide nice transition for people that want to try out the Wayland and maybe work on it everyday. This could also gather community and improve both Wayland and Enlightenment on FreeBSD as a strong base, then focus on more subtle works. I can understand the need for something smaller and faster than Xorg. I remember playing with MESA back then in 1998 with first 3D acceleration cards. I remember DirectFB to skip Xorg for graphics on embedded systems. I even remember when Drag-n-Drop in Xorg had several implementations. Embedded Systems and IoT will enforce using Wayland sooner or later. In its core concept its just drawing over the frame buffer memory so what's the big deal? It seems the only problem to run Enlightenment on Wayland is hardcoded Linux DMA code in EFL: https://github.com/Enlightenment/efl/blob/master/src/lib/ecore_wl2/ecore_wl2_buffer.c Do you know Niclas if current DRM drivers provide such DMA capabilities? Maybe this is also part of KMS standard? Maybe I should try with generic bus_dma(9) with no efficiency loss? Any hints welcome :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 10:20:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F10B2BE22C; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:20:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from mail.daemonic.se (mail.daemonic.se [176.58.89.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495N526VZYz45Dv; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:20:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from cid.daemonic.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495N505YbRz3lbm; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:20:52 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=daemonic.se; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-language:content-type :content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:date :message-id:from:from:references:subject:subject:received :received; s=20151023; t=1587377909; bh=N9xTWGFHQQEOmOH4fRNvEA8K z3+pWNWyNioHCodbeYY=; b=QXOEv8wodOnUHHzQNjniLWNG2YCYmd+TjNHYD8Jc x3gCpDuM2bj1RbqaifrnTTkxaYl9PsKoypL4z0d3U3nimWPRRjNWb3Zsa/i+H/yL TLgx8q5wXhceuMzLDgS2HEfFiAyLXGFCPcIcfoCJfhC6VCGRI+pbb++jjkejLABl DyM= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daemonic.se Received: from mail.daemonic.se ([IPv6:::1]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by cid.daemonic.se (mailscanner.daemonic.se [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10587) with ESMTPS id WpTW2u-T8m7Z; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:18:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from garnet.daemonic.se (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:dca9:201:21b9:f28e:5614:8414]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 495N2F1HHpz3mCm; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:18:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Greg V , Frederic Chardon Cc: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List References: <6c7abdcf-aeef-4af4-b8f4-9d7fd0e45cf0@localhost> From: Niclas Zeising Message-ID: <7fba319c-c012-8893-3ce0-e2a166c38d2d@daemonic.se> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:18:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6c7abdcf-aeef-4af4-b8f4-9d7fd0e45cf0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495N526VZYz45Dv X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=daemonic.se header.s=20151023 header.b=QXOEv8wo; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=daemonic.se; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of zeising@daemonic.se designates 176.58.89.161 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=zeising@daemonic.se X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.19 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[daemonic.se:s=20151023]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[daemonic.se:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[daemonic.se,none]; IP_SCORE(-3.69)[ip: (-9.72), ipnet: 176.58.89.0/24(-4.86), asn: 36236(-3.80), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:176.58.89.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:20:56 -0000 On 2020-04-20 12:07, Greg V wrote: > Apr 20, 2020 12:56:35 PM Frederic Chardon : >=20 >> Le dim. 19 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 13:50, Jan Beich a =C3= =A9crit : >> >>> >>> >>> I'm using Sway myself primarily with X11 applications. For example, >>> "vblank_mode=3D0 glxgears" shows 3x more FPS than on real Xorg server= . ;) >>> >> >> I decided to give it a try, is hardware acceleration supposed to work? >> glxgears gives 10x less fps than with X, and 3D is incredibly >> sluggish. >> eglinfo output that leads me to believe it is not: >> GBM platform: >> i965_dri.so does not support the 0xffffffff PCI ID. >> >> It is with sway, -current from yesterday, intel HD4000 iGPU (Ivybridge= i5-3320M) >> no difference between drm-devel-kmod or drm-current-kmod. >=20 > Sway itself wouldn't even start without hardware rendering, it doesn't = *have* a software renderer. >=20 > For the X applications like glxgears, I guess with the mesa build that'= s in official ports currently you still need that DRI3 something environm= ent variable.. You shouldn't need that one. We switched the default to use DRI3 not=20 long after xorg-server was updated to 1.20. https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=3Drevision&revision=3D528071 It should also be in the latest quarterly branch. Regards --=20 Niclas From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 11:43:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E42A2C036C for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:43:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from hillend.cent.gla.ac.uk (hillend.cent.gla.ac.uk [130.209.16.102]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495Pwh2tkhz4C2H for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:43:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk ([130.209.14.164]) by hillend.cent.gla.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1jQUq1-00030o-8P for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:43:45 +0100 Received: from CAS08.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.165) by cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:43:44 +0100 Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.21.55) by CAS08.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.165) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:43:44 +0100 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=QI4h5F8NggL+R5xaxZK6y1nkiXPPkhvWqfZZGynkaV7uRNmofnlB8/sirOBJ8yt8SJRmYJrDGvYQeheRIreLOUAK6JGv/ClYi0ifHCIsPK1NOaUY6sL61fd1EEzsw3gWztkf/WkJWTzhf1NKwg9L6amKRfji4H85LTl/vQhImvrJfZGD6ufsFy1NKYr+6qQzdOYMowJXAnjAiUPXUg6TWlf5wFf+dK7B7JMCvkplAznfhnYX8FfYWeW8uXvGIotYy3W20pfITLHGE0coljXu6BcFF7h8o/ituaLkqyJAtwxzSR4DAyYn09vKn6Rm67/8iINRDn+B2+AgTfzNJAOaow== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=DEOjcxWmOdoYLd/LONK/hk2mMW2pXQmqfNm0/RWNLRA=; b=UVew+drCSNpYpz/zpwtI91fKVp+m49N5vpgugZcqkIfQ7/f2lu11klVF2emRILKUM9oe/bqAGA5Ni5plxR++1foTOLW24m1MNDZsjcDv9p0Xm9jBMOyK4Q5diDfyCp4PJzf9mdTs0lnNbKj+8+bJBCumz0SCtzNjTF4TSlsmvitB9SslDEc8oYJKwzmF/faGDW7KtRapw/u0+8p2I1Lf51+vuYH0TgOOXxL06nAf0ar0GciX0Ke0aKvirfAoTm1J89gewha8I1Vc2KiHIjyjmK4uYFzJnFeZwmM5Xf1H58NPKoO2b/bU8HZJczm2BiIAizrplQQ/y2GQH9m4yoEVVg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=glasgow.ac.uk; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=glasgow.ac.uk; dkim=pass header.d=glasgow.ac.uk; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gla.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=DEOjcxWmOdoYLd/LONK/hk2mMW2pXQmqfNm0/RWNLRA=; b=SEPiHYPiu7+qBWDKrzN99XWHzMUztNhYLHLVz2ZAx5kVxb3yJqoO828uU2TqTB1G7B5sGLChY32c8S2XkB1TYcn9mWP+Dha+X6xtxOLtBVTjKZZ/ndQLdaI7BHCXHyECAOP9IwOI+hzGlJGJ26br61M/hShlZ4RW6+wpMOoraq8= Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.144.19) by CWXP265MB0741.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.255.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2921.29; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:43:44 +0000 Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd]) by CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2921.030; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:43:44 +0000 From: "Norman Gray" To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: blacklistd: what does it detect? 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I've enabled blacklistd on a 12.1 machine accessible to the open internet, but it's not blocking as many failed ssh attempts as I expect. Am I misunderstanding something? My goal is to cut down noise in the 'daily security run' output (the machine doesn't accept passwords for authentication, so I'm not particularly worried about these as break-in attempts). I'm seeing, in the logs, lots of attempts like Apr 19 12:45:34 nxg2 sshd[44480]: Invalid user monitor from 27.78.14.83 port 35510 Apr 19 12:45:34 nxg2 sshd[44480]: Connection closed by invalid user monitor 27.78.14.83 port 35510 [preauth] Apr 19 12:45:46 nxg2 sshd[44482]: Invalid user service from 27.78.14.83 port 50668 Apr 19 12:45:47 nxg2 sshd[44482]: Connection closed by invalid user service 27.78.14.83 port 50668 [preauth] Apr 19 12:46:38 nxg2 sshd[44486]: Invalid user admin from 27.78.14.83 port 40990 Apr 19 12:46:41 nxg2 sshd[44486]: Connection closed by invalid user admin 27.78.14.83 port 40990 [preauth] Apr 19 12:47:13 nxg2 sshd[44488]: Invalid user dvs from 27.78.14.83 port 42484 Apr 19 12:47:13 nxg2 sshd[44488]: Connection closed by invalid user dvs 27.78.14.83 port 42484 [preauth] This is less than 24 hours ago, at the time of writing. That IP address appears 13 times in this time period; another address 116.105.215.232 appears 8 times, 61.78.107.61 appears 36 times; a few others smaller numbers. I expect to see these addresses in both the blacklistctl dump -a output, and in the list of addresses in the port22 table in the blacklistd/22 pf anchor, but I'm not seeing either of these address in either location. Comparing this log output with the blacklistctl output and the pf table, and looking at the IP addresses with fewer attempts, I can see overlaps -- addresses which appear in two or three of the locations, but it's only partial. I'd have expected a fairly straightforward correlation between (i) failed-login log entries, (ii) entries in blacklistctl dump -a output, and (iii) entries in the pf table (modulo some complications to do with entries expiring, or not having reached their ban thresholds). However I see things in (i) but not (ii) or (iii), and things in (iii) with nothing corresponding in the other two. I'm fairly sure that blacklistd has been running continuously for at least the last 24 hours (though blacklistd isn't itself particularly chatty in the logs), so I don't _think_ there's a startup-cache issue. Examining blacklistd.conf(5) and the handbook [1], there's not a lot to configure here (which is a Good Thing, and an attractive contrast with fail2ban), so there don't seem to be many opportunities for me to break this. What am I missing? What is it that blacklistd is detecting/reporting? Best wishes, Norman [1] https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/firewalls-blacklistd.html -- Norman Gray : http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/it/ Research IT Coordinator SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK Charity number SC004401 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 11:59:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B70BA2C070E; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:59:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd43.google.com (mail-io1-xd43.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d43]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495QGW6K5Lz4D1W; 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R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:59:16 -0000 Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 12:20, Niclas Zeising a =C3=A9crit : > > On 2020-04-20 12:07, Greg V wrote: > > Apr 20, 2020 12:56:35 PM Frederic Chardon : > > > >> Le dim. 19 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 13:50, Jan Beich a = =C3=A9crit : > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> I'm using Sway myself primarily with X11 applications. For example, > >>> "vblank_mode=3D0 glxgears" shows 3x more FPS than on real Xorg server= . ;) > >>> > >> > >> I decided to give it a try, is hardware acceleration supposed to work? > >> glxgears gives 10x less fps than with X, and 3D is incredibly > >> sluggish. > >> eglinfo output that leads me to believe it is not: > >> GBM platform: > >> i965_dri.so does not support the 0xffffffff PCI ID. > >> > >> It is with sway, -current from yesterday, intel HD4000 iGPU (Ivybridge= i5-3320M) > >> no difference between drm-devel-kmod or drm-current-kmod. > > > > Sway itself wouldn't even start without hardware rendering, it doesn't = *have* a software renderer. > > > > For the X applications like glxgears, I guess with the mesa build that'= s in official ports currently you still need that DRI3 something environmen= t variable.. > > You shouldn't need that one. We switched the default to use DRI3 not > long after xorg-server was updated to 1.20. > https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=3Drevision&revision=3D528071 > It should also be in the latest quarterly branch. > Regards > -- > Niclas With or without LIBGL_DRI3_ENABLE=3D1 in the environment the result is the same. I use official packages, updated yesterday. The problem I face might be due to permission issue. ktrace shows this: 28047 eglinfo CALL openat(AT_FDCWD,0x7fffffffc820,0x100002) 28047 eglinfo NAMI "/dev/dri/card0" 28047 eglinfo RET openat 3 /..../ 28047 eglinfo CALL ioctl(0x3,0xc0106446,0x7fffffffbc70) 28047 eglinfo RET ioctl -1 errno 13 Permission denied ls -l /dev/dri/card0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 8 20 avr. 13:52 /dev/dri/card0@ -> ../drm/0 ls -l /dev/drm/0 crw-rw---- 1 root video 0x83 20 avr. 13:08 /dev/drm/0 I am in both wheel and video group, and X11 is working just fine. Any additional config is necessary? Thanks From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 17:15:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2CB2A8264 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:15:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from healer@rpi.edu) Received: from smtp10.server.rpi.edu (smtp10.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "canit.localdomain", Issuer "canit.localdomain" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495YHJ2CJYz3CcB for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:15:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from healer@rpi.edu) Received: from smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu (smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.232]) by smtp10.server.rpi.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id 03KHFM7Y001821 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:15:22 -0400 Received: from smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C91D1A04D for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.113.125.33] (calyx-28.net.rpi.edu [128.113.125.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: healer) by smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 73B821A04B for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:15:22 -0400 (EDT) To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List From: Bob Healey Subject: Building packages for a variety of systems Message-ID: <12dbced7-ae27-7d89-daf8-53fe10e2ef67@rpi.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:15:21 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: outgoing, @@RPTN) X-Spam-Score: 0.00 () [Hold at 10.10] X-CanIt-Incident-Id: 032t5fmKp X-CanIt-Geo: ip=128.113.125.33; country=US; region=New York; city=Troy; latitude=42.7273; longitude=-73.6696; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=42.7273,-73.6696&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: outgoing X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.230 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495YHJ2CJYz3CcB X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rpi.edu; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of healer@rpi.edu designates 128.113.2.230 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=healer@rpi.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.75 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:128.113.2.225/28]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[230.2.113.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.11.2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rpi.edu,none]; IP_SCORE(-3.75)[ip: (-9.84), ipnet: 128.113.0.0/16(-4.91), asn: 91(-3.93), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:91, ipnet:128.113.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:15:24 -0000 I would like to move from building ports with my custom options on each system, and move to building once in a central location, and then deploying via pkg add.  Mainly openldap, samba, BIND, and their dependencies.  Do I need to use my oldest CPU (Opteron 1000 series) as the build host, or can I get away with using something much newer (Xeon E5-2000 v3) with more cores and RAM?  I'm seeing mixed opinions about ports hard coding build CPU features into binaries, and don't want to get stuck. Thank you for your time. -- Bob Healey Systems Administrator Office of Research From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 18:21:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF832A9F7F for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:21:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495ZlV3R2kz3JJL for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:21:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.117.100]) (using 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of systems To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <12dbced7-ae27-7d89-daf8-53fe10e2ef67@rpi.edu> From: Matthew Seaman Autocrypt: addr=matthew@FreeBSD.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFJIL80BEADi7/VbnnErDU6pjEhI/SzEZ/HbDRkJ5g7HroAtqIRm6nj8ZwOAgZ/2ZnWn 5F+fXTuLsG0FLNtkd17FoVcuCi5e/GPliXI5cmamV7E1Yz4T8UsJ7RQolimyxVexccKd16Tc AA7B9bFlJSKkBUSD0buj7VjT07xWhRzu6Vgi5r0UjLALYJz977uZA0F1aOGOXREDEAOhdcNc kSNjynqAwDA6dCT1Elpi4key1fYjv4jyDF+GU/YXul2Y/rguA8FCkHd9vyym5eAsLQ5mG00V V9fkEHIpH5KorNVnl/ufHXnkZqmHAZVpFDcrshb7aZ/pL45PXyWgLj+e6etelgj3a2bZi0JF cVdXCnBZVP2oIyYblM11ugTbfCwodORU8a5KfPeztMdAtDr4e+32NTrPdPi5rLT+GUsYz+PL 3A3m3u8bdsFp40DlIrBtSByVjqERxcfhphrEB4J8BXHUG7OAtXkZMlW/PGKDwXJq0O6Z5Tcg YHAoEiSWbXiexHgXNJyP+sqnIlhLWhSJGeJ+C83wqI6oYlZUCW00NkPxcIHnQPV/z+5wQVci TMyaWC2YCIHz4Ljs+TnwWMz0E8PNFDfHVbQ0W4PRGV7gRAqxfL+yKufauIEGbEq8rNDbSwL3 bcUCxR4ZDlaUEUwT4J8naf7rjdgiEYHs2Ig3jeK1+ER4FPG1sQARAQABtCRNYXR0aGV3IFNl YW1hbiA8bWF0dGhld0BmcmVlYnNkLm9yZz6JAlQEEwEKAD4CGwMFCwkIBwMFFQoJCAsFFgMC 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Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <12dbced7-ae27-7d89-daf8-53fe10e2ef67@rpi.edu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WphWyU3bbjvAwujbv2Fz00ARXbzfWCbTR" X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:21:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --WphWyU3bbjvAwujbv2Fz00ARXbzfWCbTR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="uEDLpCbRYw9vkn72dIT0Thg9w1hpCsTVA" --uEDLpCbRYw9vkn72dIT0Thg9w1hpCsTVA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 20/04/2020 18:15, Bob Healey wrote: > I would like to move from building ports with my custom options on each= > system, and move to building once in a central location, and then > deploying via pkg add.=C2=A0 Mainly openldap, samba, BIND, and their > dependencies.=C2=A0 Do I need to use my oldest CPU (Opteron 1000 series= ) as > the build host, or can I get away with using something much newer (Xeon= > E5-2000 v3) with more cores and RAM?=C2=A0 I'm seeing mixed opinions ab= out > ports hard coding build CPU features into binaries, and don't want to > get stuck. So long as you don't specify a particular CPU type in your compilation flags -- ie. leave the flags at their default settings -- then it should be absolutely fine to build on any amd64-compatible machine to deploy on practically any other amd64-compatible machine. Compilers on FreeBSD are configured to support a generic CPU which all more recent designs than the Intel 486 or 586 should be backwardly compatible with. After all, the cerntral FreeBSD package build servers are pretty highly specified rack-mount servers, but the packages built on them are expected to work on much older and less capable hardware. Cheers, Matthew --uEDLpCbRYw9vkn72dIT0Thg9w1hpCsTVA-- --WphWyU3bbjvAwujbv2Fz00ARXbzfWCbTR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEGfFU7L8RLlBUTj8wAFE/EOCp5OcFAl6d6B9fFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5 RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0YzMDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp 5Oc2iQ//QEjbTsggs0qVId+3cr9yLd5qYGHK1PPn7pjqhtAdHC0QjyAsYdmugP1G Z88UYDxD7KjKVTpkWbD9GxDzgpjFVvIVwL+1KAxG/exdXLswh81LdwCkt1UUsrQm wQvJAff8O8TT3/dMVhoxDgkJrccDcE7Q7h9bV5ucfhnK0hUGTUiX0a2dFyMO4Glg GNxPnnxUaSHUudnh9kgqwgyLVfx4QpeF+amY6W3wxoFn7K7NXmJAsRj/IQ6W1SYh xvAmhtXAha/y2+Mzcb2+P76DoWjxJI1Lz3cI51DMR4tiuWuZNkx0grd378O4l5ue voq4LI5vboB6m54f4nWsAGPsaS+6Q2CrA4STBHFe6AJPpxIBp9x+1w4PWEffM6dZ oksuYBpCRYpJL0J00ZfOyYF7kx4cKxNC0jcxjYiWMnVDgPkcQFjh2geCQjfyRnW8 78I/NPXrtT/0HOKcVd2lVLBN6mBgwrMZFTah2kMOhOROkcJp7pUVyF6/OterK4Ug kpijnJ0rLmYowFoMOnlRa/A604fOgQDWJ5zw23KF3UpX8L0tXhhU0deo4YPFroaH mC/S2PyvQ7UPqNhnjJuqxj6T410g5qu6b6icsOw3K2dzir8dOjExk/RR2LiptaNv CFddPQHwOrygWpEz4GIYrDYQu4NmkqWm/7cRpHgVBs4rubkiIYo= =q/5h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WphWyU3bbjvAwujbv2Fz00ARXbzfWCbTR-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 18:25:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1872AA35E; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:25:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495ZrJ2frTz3K1B; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:25:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id c16so3943789ilr.3; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:25:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KS/n19UvFOCgVPwC2BdNCfeqYznNj0wOrR/C8NZuOr0=; b=mOi2qCMQRCMUhtEDwAXDKO8FHEa5/xeVQzd9mF62XgGEs9ohK0Lwpj+mxfqT5Y3I1d UFKk5sL5FK7n4be63o6N/kP3EvzXHhFL0MtpmsDNJ17XVu/m9B1hjhUHqYANgWl4EzKi YFNYHb/emMvImq9J4QqoDGyWtx6YILOtlij3G8jNTnSb3rd7BKDDIeWfCvuudkOToXnQ Bhq4zkJNKoC7hC5xwecvkSV5lUt9dLveG+zfovQl3ESW1dHmN85X2hojxeXV3Tw0/Fwx 5ManbYuShOIB6WMbBz4UJPwmoz83LYiXSOIqlzDBa6EBkFKrdszNVdACfVLkPU6dWC6G j2Ig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495ZrJ2frTz3K1B X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 18:25:36 -0000 Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 15:20, Jan Beich a =C3=A9c= rit : > > Frederic Chardon writes: > > > Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 12:20, Niclas Zeising > > a =C3=A9crit : > > > >> > >> On 2020-04-20 12:07, Greg V wrote: > >> > Apr 20, 2020 12:56:35 PM Frederic Chardon : > >> > > >> >> Le dim. 19 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 13:50, Jan Beich a= =C3=A9crit : > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> I'm using Sway myself primarily with X11 applications. For example= , > >> >>> "vblank_mode=3D0 glxgears" shows 3x more FPS than on real Xorg ser= ver. ;) > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> I decided to give it a try, is hardware acceleration supposed to wo= rk? > >> >> glxgears gives 10x less fps than with X, and 3D is incredibly > >> >> sluggish. > >> >> eglinfo output that leads me to believe it is not: > >> >> GBM platform: > >> >> i965_dri.so does not support the 0xffffffff PCI ID. > >> >> > >> >> It is with sway, -current from yesterday, intel HD4000 iGPU (Ivybri= dge i5-3320M) > >> >> no difference between drm-devel-kmod or drm-current-kmod. > >> > > >> > Sway itself wouldn't even start without hardware rendering, it doesn= 't *have* a software renderer. > >> > > >> > For the X applications like glxgears, I guess with the mesa build > >> > that's in official ports currently you still need that DRI3 > >> > something environment variable.. > >> > >> You shouldn't need that one. We switched the default to use DRI3 not > >> long after xorg-server was updated to 1.20. > >> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=3Drevision&revision=3D528071 > >> It should also be in the latest quarterly branch. > >> Regards > >> -- > >> Niclas > > > > With or without LIBGL_DRI3_ENABLE=3D1 in the environment the result is > > the same. I use official packages, updated yesterday. > > > > The problem I face might be due to permission issue. ktrace shows this: > > 28047 eglinfo CALL openat(AT_FDCWD,0x7fffffffc820,0x100002) > > 28047 eglinfo NAMI "/dev/dri/card0" > > 28047 eglinfo RET openat 3 > > /..../ > > 28047 eglinfo CALL ioctl(0x3,0xc0106446,0x7fffffffbc70) > > 28047 eglinfo RET ioctl -1 errno 13 Permission denied > > What initializes DRI3 is Xwayland which is started by Sway. DRI3 can > fail for weird reasons (e.g., bug 241821), so make sure you have > > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23846 > > As graphics/mesa-demos doesn't install eglgears_wayland to check OpenGL > acceleration in native Wayland clients try multimedia/mpv instead e.g., > > $ pkg install mpv > $ mpv --no-config --msg-level=3Dvo/gpu=3Dv --gpu-api=3Dopengl --gpu-con= text=3Dwayland /path/to/foo.mp4 Thanks, I'm at r360105 so this fix is included. mpv doesn't output any erro= r. I installed benchmarks/glmark2, it scores an average of 8 times less fps under wayland than X11. So wayland in general works, but OpenGL is slow. Is it expected? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 19:19:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E492ABF5B for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:19:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (dontpanic.foucry.net [80.67.176.134]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495c2l023bz3QM9 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:19:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.foucry.net (mithril.foucry.net [127.0.0.1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38A318B76 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:19:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:19:35 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] Message-ID: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495c2l023bz3QM9 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=foucry.net (policy=none) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[foucry.net : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[mithril.localdomain]; HFILTER_HELO_NORES_A_OR_MX(0.30)[mithril.localdomain]; IP_SCORE(-0.99)[ipnet: 80.67.160.0/19(-2.76), asn: 20766(-2.17), country: FR(0.00)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20766, ipnet:80.67.160.0/19, country:FR]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:19:43 -0000 Dear all, According to this page (https://www.freshports.org/x11/terminator/), using latest as pkg repo, I should be able to install 'terminator'. But, ``` sudo pkg install terminator Password: Updating FreeBSD repository catalogue... FreeBSD repository is up to date. All repositories are up to date. Updating database digests format: 100% pkg: No packages available to install matching 'terminator' have been found in the repositories ``` pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? Thanks in advance for opening my eyes, there must be a detail that I did not see. -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 19:25:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE142AC277 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:25:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oi1-x241.google.com (mail-oi1-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495c9p0JN4z3Qrd for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:25:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oi1-x241.google.com with SMTP id r25so9883457oij.4 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:25:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Msad3AxK1JG6YID7otx0brSwDOsLSBRCiW4X6LM5r7M=; b=iP3GQla6VG4twvbD59dcz/SXjdU9Da+M8LP8qqtB8iDm/KZumAtXZ4XJxpYqIClrfM jigbtaUiehfZklTDN4AtYh+VDPB0icFDcgqRJMPEKCEgaq5bd/io6YuJLWVAPTtQY7dB njIkIShJcgwOcJHu0UXtFUC5byw894n3ouufi4tEyirAezD7d5pTUf81NTytFy98pKkU wD4lAvsA/ZiNSqNs+ZGwhAG8dYxPmTcDMXPhJwOBaahrqzYMdgZep9sww4xLZEt+y7DR 4JnXFTPu8n8G8Nq1y6SVlSt1McMrXBs7JujU1DL2m3mZ6P+gd4VEht6Da3jk9ZGdHPHa ZGMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Msad3AxK1JG6YID7otx0brSwDOsLSBRCiW4X6LM5r7M=; b=lchDwqI+bfDQDlWbTNBUK1MtL6JFoXrWZf0p/cCXDYiTLVXnkJRu4prBpqc94MZcQb j61Nme+jEEp1AXnBwECFoyhkFAEGajz1R80ff8CtEXugPpSYzt7QQLX+wCmPaIgRDpiL 3dMizAfzvjxRui4VL9UUusGJGnmrSe3GFkQdPkSgoN2ZCpfJ0DZkIPalFkXs6zccyAyF WeGLHMwY015rbQl7P0cJEpy+G7yo63/BYEw6/XU4S4fmPFMJpgDidhQkxvHvk6g0ZqQ0 18kQRcf8IUF8NolmwYkvmz09tgBFG+j4U0MtsTTfml+kqJsjy7d2tSP72wMgG407Arkg 1yOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubuHfkGsYrH1r2uNLuDnaXZLSP83Av2HbzYzE5HizuWjeDnDRVa xWODDl+gmH4YcVbyYI5teSMYLWD6hi8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLws0TJOvpVvPmzb8jXoUqPWaiBgiJxiJAjTnWUJ1C3DnBJK4W9OM92En6JpEWn6fIViAghVw== X-Received: by 2002:aca:a857:: with SMTP id r84mr720184oie.69.1587410748635; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f172.google.com (mail-oi1-f172.google.com. [209.85.167.172]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t4sm84135oih.6.2020.04.20.12.25.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f172.google.com with SMTP id q204so9825352oia.13; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:25:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:485:: with SMTP id z5mr716844oid.78.1587410747535; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:25:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:25:16 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Greg V Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495c9p0JN4z3Qrd X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=iP3GQla6; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::241) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.44 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.4.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.14)[ip: (0.10), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:25:50 -0000 On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 11:59 AM Greg V wrote: > There are no "Linux specific DMA transfers" in userspace applications :) = DMA-BUF is basically a way to refer to GPU buffers from userspace, pass the= m around as file descriptors, and synchronize access to them. Of course it = is supported, it's a very important part of the DRM stack. Hmm, is it then normal to use on non-Linux code like this? #include #include "linux-dmabuf-unstable-v1-client-protocol.h" struct zwp_linux_dmabuf_v1 *dmabuf; struct zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1 *dp; dmabuf =3D ecore_wl2_display_dmabuf_get(ewd); dp =3D zwp_linux_dmabuf_v1_create_params(dmabuf); zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1_add(dp, db->fd, 0, 0, db->stride, 0, 0); buf =3D zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1_create_immed(dp, db->w, db->h, format, flags); wl_buffer_add_listener(buf, &buffer_listener, db); zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1_destroy(dp); static void _create_succeeded(void *data EINA_UNUSED, struct zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1 *params, struct wl_buffer *new_buffer) { wl_buffer_destroy(new_buffer); zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1_destroy(params); } zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1_destroy(params); struct zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1 *dp; dp =3D zwp_linux_dmabuf_v1_create_params(ewd->wl.dmabuf); zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1_add(dp, buf->fd, 0, 0, buf->stride, 0, 0); zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1_add_listener(dp, ¶ms_listener, ewd); zwp_linux_buffer_params_v1_create(dp, buf->w, buf->h, DRM_FORMAT_ARGB8888, 0); Is this some sort of Linux KMS/DRM specification that keeps explict "linux" name hardcoded and we have them too on FreeBSD named that way? Never seen anything like this :-) > Nothing currently installs the uapi header that contain= s some definitions for the sync ioctl, but the ioctl works: > https://github.com/FreeBSDDesktop/kms-drm/blob/drm-v4.16/linuxkpi/gplv2/s= rc/linux_dmabuf.c > > Chromium currently patches ifdefs to use the inlined copy of the header t= hat's already there for older Linux installations: > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/blob/master/www/chromium/files/p= atch-ui_gfx_linux_client__native__pixmap__dmabuf.cc > https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/refs/tags/84.0.4120.1/ui= /gfx/linux/client_native_pixmap_dmabuf.cc > > But really we need a tiny port that installs that header already :) Will look into this in a free moment and report back! Does this mean we only put that header and things start workin? ;-) Thank you Greg!! :-) --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 19:34:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5067B2AC98B for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:34:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495cN266cZz3xDh for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:34:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.142.145]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E9204E672 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:34:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:34:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495cN266cZz3xDh X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[145.142.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.961,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (0.30), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.15), asn: 160(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.950,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:34:44 -0000 On 4/20/20 2:19 PM, Jacques Foucry wrote: > Dear all, > > According to this page (https://www.freshports.org/x11/terminator/), using > latest as pkg repo, I should be able to install 'terminator'. > > But, > ``` > sudo pkg install terminator > Password : > Updating FreeBSD repository catalogue... > FreeBSD repository is up to date. > All repositories are up to date. > Updating database digests format: 100% > pkg: No packages available to install matching 'terminator' have been found in the repositories > ``` > > pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. > > So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? Nothing is wrong, this merely means that terminator is not built and hence is not distributed as package. There may be several reasons for that. I can think of some (without regard to any specific package: 1. software may need custom option choices, which may be diverse, mutually exclusive and there is no reason to think one will be reasonable prevailing choice by users 2. port may have trouble building, maybe sometimes 3. port may lag behind sometimes, and even it it is catching up, it is not always up-to-date (port maintaner often really needs to thweak thigs with every change of software) 4. port is orphaned, and there is no maintaner currently 5. - I'm sure there may be a bunch of other reasons, hopefully some expert will add and/or correct me What you can do is to build it yourself: portsnap fetch extract cd `find /usr/ports -name terminator` make install clean Valeri > > Thanks in advance for opening my eyes, there must be a detail that I did not > see. > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 19:38:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2BB2ACE77 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495cSD2WzLz3xgZ for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 54E5D2ACE76; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:38:20 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A8F2ACE75 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: from echo.brtsvcs.net (echo.brtsvcs.net [IPv6:2607:f740:c::4ae]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495cSC1vG7z3xgX for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:38:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: from chombo.houseloki.net (unknown [IPv6:2602:41:642b:600::6]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client CN "chombo.houseloki.net", Issuer "brtsvcs.net CA" (verified OK)) by echo.brtsvcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8B9B38D21 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:38:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2602:41:642b:630:e9e5:f7a:bf1c:ca79] (unknown [IPv6:2602:41:642b:630:e9e5:f7a:bf1c:ca79]) by chombo.houseloki.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9C6B1B93 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:38:11 -0700 (PDT) To: questions@freebsd.org From: Mel Pilgrim Subject: Root on GELI+ZFS without a separate boot pool? Message-ID: <5c8c640c-8811-d7f4-a239-f42fcac3688f@bluerosetech.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:38:12 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495cSC1vG7z3xgX X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com designates 2607:f740:c::4ae as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bluerosetech.com]; IP_SCORE(-3.31)[ip: (-8.52), ipnet: 2607:f740:c::/48(-4.19), asn: 36236(-3.80), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:2607:f740:c::/48, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:38:20 -0000 Threads on others lists mentioned that with 12-R it's no longer necessary to have a separate boot pool when using a GELI-encrypted root ZFS pool. The documentation I can find only shows the simple case of using a passphrase without a boot pool, or the "legacy" configuration of using keyfiles with a separate boot pool. The use case is data privacy on a failed disk sent back to the OEM under RMA combined with unattended restarts. Prompting for a passphrase can't happen. The means to decrypt the GELI volumes must never be stored on the disk with the encrypted partitions. It seems like it would work if the loader could access a separate filesystem containing just the keys, but nothing in the documentation suggests how to do this. That is, the configuration for using GELI keys assumes the keys are on the same filesytem as the loader. How do I get rid of having a separate /boot pool in my use case? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 19:47:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063F02AD377; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:47:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: from echo.brtsvcs.net (echo.brtsvcs.net [208.111.40.118]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495cfl5gxkz3yVk; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:47:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from list_freebsd@bluerosetech.com) Received: from chombo.houseloki.net (unknown [IPv6:2602:41:642b:600::6]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client CN "chombo.houseloki.net", Issuer "brtsvcs.net CA" (verified OK)) by echo.brtsvcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E0AD38F58; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:47:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2602:41:642b:630:e9e5:f7a:bf1c:ca79] (unknown [IPv6:2602:41:642b:630:e9e5:f7a:bf1c:ca79]) by chombo.houseloki.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D831A1B9A; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Office Hours To: Allan Jude , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <94201a1b-b8b3-86c7-5b46-ad4be52b4a85@freebsd.org> From: Mel Pilgrim Message-ID: <29db3e65-eb5e-0bb4-b36a-0314e1ccf26c@bluerosetech.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:47:26 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <94201a1b-b8b3-86c7-5b46-ad4be52b4a85@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495cfl5gxkz3yVk X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:47:28 -0000 On 2020-04-20 9:49, Allan Jude wrote: > Last week we had another FreeBSD Office Hours session, the video can be > found here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MpltC87L3E > > It was less well attended, likely due to the time slot. TBQH, I thought "FreeBSD Office Hours" was an April Fools' joke. The original announcement was dated for April 1, and having something called "Office Hours" for an online development community was enough of a non sequitur to make me conclude it was tongue-in-cheek. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 19:58:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50FE2ADD4D for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:58:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10003277dac.59fb01b23a372acf0d93f9771d3ca1d8@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495cvw5byQz410p for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:58:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10003277dac.59fb01b23a372acf0d93f9771d3ca1d8@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587412733; x=1590004733; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=DlZ1JWO3VPlsNvHoc7eDZuY6DrdpdZNHRdnRRQNnnOY=; b=Hq4Bsxn8z8WBubTgBQmkj1Osmpp4QV2TD/8gnLog1dOAWdEsXgN+VVaLdolddlMtYa1C01ivolA9M22XFk6/baQdZtYTvU0rnRm2R6PdzbwPuouZ/PzGLrNLmpvBwvANXXFH+V1F5kOXbP+PX24BSxBxLj/UMp1sXPwvHgwtH78= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDMyNzdkYWMuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.h.in.socketlabs.com (r3.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.13]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:58:48 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:58:47 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jQcZ3-00085g-Pl; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:58:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:58:45 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Jacques Foucry Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] Message-Id: <20200420205845.a04c1ee6be848c01444e2d51@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> References: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495cvw5byQz410p X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=Hq4Bsxn8; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10003277dac.59fb01b23a372acf0d93f9771d3ca1d8@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10003277dac.59fb01b23a372acf0d93f9771d3ca1d8@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.975,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.23), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.33), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10003277dac.59fb01b23a372acf0d93f9771d3ca1d8@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10003277dac.59fb01b23a372acf0d93f9771d3ca1d8@email-od.com]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:58:53 -0000 On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:19:35 +0200 Jacques Foucry wrote: > pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. > > So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? These lines in the port Makefile seem to be the reason. DEPRECATED= Old, uses EOLed python27 EXPIRATION_DATE= 2020-02-28 It's deprecated for using an old version of python and has past the expiry date for getting fixed. Presumably it is also on its way out of the ports tree unless someone steps up and sorts it out. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 20:01:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B884B2ADEE2 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:01:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495cyb4LNTz41Lf for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:01:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03KK0uo8038998 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:00:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) To: FreeBSD Mailing List From: Tim Daneliuk Subject: More On FreeBSD Network Speed (Was: Changes To nat-ing Behaviour?) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:00:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:00:57 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 03KK0uo8038998 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.077, required 1, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, AWL 0.82, BAYES_00 -1.90) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495cyb4LNTz41Lf X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tundra@tundraware.com designates 45.55.60.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tundra@tundraware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.35 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.92)[-0.920,0]; IP_SCORE(0.56)[ip: (-1.32), ipnet: 45.55.32.0/19(2.92), asn: 14061(1.25), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.69)[-0.691,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:01:12 -0000 I have a FreeBSD 11-STABLE firewall/router/NATing host that has an re0 NIC pointing at the internet and an older PCI Intel em0 device supporting a nonroutable IP space on an internal LAN. I recently discovered that my throughput from the LAN to the internet suddenly lost 50% of the available bandwidth. Going directly from the FreeBSD firewall host to internet was fine. After some hours of fiddling with cables and switches, everything pointed to the old PCI em0 card in the firewall box. I had another one here, but it too showed half speed. Both of these cards have a LOT of hours on them, so we got newer Intel PCIe em0 card and, voila', problem fixed. (So, either these cards aged to point where they cannot run at full speed (which I have only very rarely ever seen before), or them most recent em0 driver is misconfigured for these older cards somehow.) But there continues to be a performance puzzle I cannot quite figure out. For our purposes, there are three machines on the LAN: The FreeBSD NATing firewall, a Mac laptop, and a Linux workstation. Using iPerf3, I tested network throughput pairwise between these machines. I got some very strange results (results are the same regardless of which machine served as client or server): MacOS <-> Linux ~933 Mbits/sec MacOS <-> FreeBSD ~933 Mbits/sec FreeBSD <-> Linux ~533 Mbits/sec Linux and FreeBSD have superframe MTUs of 9000 set MacOS MTU is set to 1500. The FreeBSD machine does also serve Samba and NFS mounts into the LAN but disabling this had no effect on the results. Neither did setting the Linux MTU to 1500. In short, the network switches and wiring can sustain nearly the full 1G speed as expected, but - when FreeBSD and Linux try talk - the speed is seriously compromised. Clearly, FreeBSD can hit that speed since it did so with the Mac. I am scratching my head on this one. Any ideas from the Geniuses Present would be appreciated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 20:12:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43492AE69F for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:12:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (dontpanic.foucry.net [80.67.176.134]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495dCl5r4Fz42Tv for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:12:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.foucry.net (mithril.foucry.net [127.0.0.1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2A318BB3; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:12:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:12:34 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: Steve O'Hara-Smith Cc: Jacques Foucry , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] Message-ID: <20200420201234.GC2970@mithril.foucry.net> Mail-Followup-To: Steve O'Hara-Smith , Jacques Foucry , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420205845.a04c1ee6be848c01444e2d51@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20200420205845.a04c1ee6be848c01444e2d51@sohara.org> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495dCl5r4Fz42Tv X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=foucry.net (policy=none) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[foucry.net : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[mithril.localdomain]; HFILTER_HELO_NORES_A_OR_MX(0.30)[mithril.localdomain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.98)[ipnet: 80.67.160.0/19(-2.74), asn: 20766(-2.16), country: FR(0.00)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20766, ipnet:80.67.160.0/19, country:FR]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:12:36 -0000 Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 à 20:58:45 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith à écrit: > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:19:35 +0200 > Jacques Foucry wrote: > > > > pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. > > > > So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? > > These lines in the port Makefile seem to be the reason. > > DEPRECATED= Old, uses EOLed python27 > EXPIRATION_DATE= 2020-02-28 Hug… Don't find those lines on the Makefile in my port three: Instaed, concerning python, I have those lines: USES= gnome python:3.5+ shebangfix USE_GNOME= intltool pygobject3 vte3 USE_PYTHON= autoplist distutils And it compile perfectly on my system FreeBSD mithril 12.1-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 GENERIC amd64 Look strange isnt'it? -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 20:16:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176172AE8A9; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:16:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x130.google.com (mail-il1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495dJ56y9Sz42pJ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:16:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x130.google.com with SMTP id x2so9892686ilp.13; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:16:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LB2kBGCQ8JQXLcRlJiRndGTLOlyEwlw37Q0lCCMEcnQ=; b=VKUkKdEi+LvNsi1EioQvsxJmQdKQmDZDG2B19IC039pvqM5/j1Xze46KiOAZhrJVOC +VHNWlkD/vFaWzx+B3hFpDeQAcQTwLidPRbtW8pCsH7myvuoWpR9PQdhwm31aO1vDCr2 4umjMikwlKXInO3OLrsFM+XsWtAToA60Tt8TDwpzS2ugFYUfAdx4bkHqhqoZmQLcM0GN tV0FiENpvyAFDzVSDuCN9JpIpCHaqXQX3HgAxzmmq4NF5txvfVApkLPmynydrwM3gBjE VckZBXIbKKSCQ2o6I4fs0iH7n/BMIshWMk8YOg5IiMrClKxiBHxGZdxxpNutZ7rJVgwr p+BQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LB2kBGCQ8JQXLcRlJiRndGTLOlyEwlw37Q0lCCMEcnQ=; b=DiPeQ1A9wJx858ULf2gPvgDDslU8uIVaV6qDjDOEMxBr/Fn6AGZ4gC5ADHZ8zU6m4+ a9npkh4ET6gPVPeOSosrkY+wYX2DkVihqXLD6EI6SaJ9SdaJ8KGrhhZumvy8iIgEkOg8 eXmf4Q1UdBL9oezzCmpU7DSCJRmG9jEtvrTHNJcQMal/yx54RWcfntUmFqinS16yNFxh y50zaYyruXfx6UxXR2EYirV5BZwScptNbERlDAs2K++erI9eZg/6v5W01iOMrMkpU+3i u9iKJf3MNwD086YzDZcONW0j4uBrF437PCLzP7TvnNu9GwgMLWqB2kNRwpWd9ziMbgTw FQOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYMkJ8IfhGw9cgVf4FJ1EheQ7vgUAUSpgNX92ketmLvU4AWEn/6 F9C5Zk3AbODTnQAQR2Eyi6VjPRO1niZ19hYkB0qglKnfY8Gmdw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIvsp/rJabxeTjByJyrW1fh7uj3RZIfSMlDTAWOLs0VzXb4EjmMgvlvlMcIP/OV7z1publkJVNrl54Tf7c6CpA= X-Received: by 2002:a92:8bd1:: with SMTP id i200mr18295526ild.46.1587413780142; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:16:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6c7abdcf-aeef-4af4-b8f4-9d7fd0e45cf0@localhost> <7fba319c-c012-8893-3ce0-e2a166c38d2d@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: From: Frederic Chardon Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:16:08 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Jan Beich Cc: Niclas Zeising , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495dJ56y9Sz42pJ X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:16:22 -0000 Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 20:54, Jan Beich a =C3=A9c= rit : > > Frederic Chardon writes: > > > Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 15:20, Jan Beich a =C3= =A9crit : > > > >> > >> Frederic Chardon writes: > >> > >> > Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 12:20, Niclas Zeising > >> > a =C3=A9crit : > >> > > >> >> > >> >> On 2020-04-20 12:07, Greg V wrote: > >> >> > Apr 20, 2020 12:56:35 PM Frederic Chardon : > >> >> > > >> >> >> Le dim. 19 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 13:50, Jan Beich a =C3=A9crit : > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> I'm using Sway myself primarily with X11 applications. For exam= ple, > >> >> >>> "vblank_mode=3D0 glxgears" shows 3x more FPS than on real Xorg = server. ;) > >> >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I decided to give it a try, is hardware acceleration supposed to= work? > >> >> >> glxgears gives 10x less fps than with X, and 3D is incredibly > >> >> >> sluggish. > >> >> >> eglinfo output that leads me to believe it is not: > >> >> >> GBM platform: > >> >> >> i965_dri.so does not support the 0xffffffff PCI ID. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> It is with sway, -current from yesterday, intel HD4000 iGPU (Ivy= bridge i5-3320M) > >> >> >> no difference between drm-devel-kmod or drm-current-kmod. > >> >> > > >> >> > Sway itself wouldn't even start without hardware rendering, it do= esn't *have* a software renderer. > >> >> > > >> >> > For the X applications like glxgears, I guess with the mesa build > >> >> > that's in official ports currently you still need that DRI3 > >> >> > something environment variable.. > >> >> > >> >> You shouldn't need that one. We switched the default to use DRI3 n= ot > >> >> long after xorg-server was updated to 1.20. > >> >> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=3Drevision&revision=3D528071 > >> >> It should also be in the latest quarterly branch. > >> >> Regards > >> >> -- > >> >> Niclas > >> > > >> > With or without LIBGL_DRI3_ENABLE=3D1 in the environment the result = is > >> > the same. I use official packages, updated yesterday. > >> > > >> > The problem I face might be due to permission issue. ktrace shows th= is: > >> > 28047 eglinfo CALL openat(AT_FDCWD,0x7fffffffc820,0x100002) > >> > 28047 eglinfo NAMI "/dev/dri/card0" > >> > 28047 eglinfo RET openat 3 > >> > /..../ > >> > 28047 eglinfo CALL ioctl(0x3,0xc0106446,0x7fffffffbc70) > >> > 28047 eglinfo RET ioctl -1 errno 13 Permission denied > >> > >> What initializes DRI3 is Xwayland which is started by Sway. DRI3 can > >> fail for weird reasons (e.g., bug 241821), so make sure you have > >> > >> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23846 > >> > >> As graphics/mesa-demos doesn't install eglgears_wayland to check OpenG= L > >> acceleration in native Wayland clients try multimedia/mpv instead e.g.= , > >> > >> $ pkg install mpv > >> $ mpv --no-config --msg-level=3Dvo/gpu=3Dv --gpu-api=3Dopengl --gpu-= context=3Dwayland /path/to/foo.mp4 > > > > Thanks, I'm at r360105 so this fix is included. mpv doesn't output any = error. > > What does mpv show as GL_RENDERER? If not llvmpipe (or swrast) then > hardware acceleration in native Wayland clients works fine for you. [vo/gpu/wayland] GL_RENDERER=3D'Mesa DRI Intel(R) Ivybridge Mobile ' > > > I installed benchmarks/glmark2, it scores an average of 8 times less > > fps under wayland than X11. So wayland in general works, but OpenGL is > > slow. Is it expected? > > glmark2 doesn't seem to support Wayland natively, so like glxgears it > tests Xwayland support. If Xwayland failed to initialize DRI3 then > all X11 clients would use slow software rendering. > > $ printenv | fgrep -i display > DISPLAY=3D:0 > WAYLAND_DISPLAY=3Dwayland-0 > > $ env -u DISPLAY glmark2 > Error: main: Could not initialize canvas > > $ env -u DISPLAY glmark2-es2 > Error: main: Could not initialize canvas I have the exact same output for all 3. > > Try starting Sway via "ktrace -i" or replace Xwayland binary with a > wrapper (see below) that starts it via ktrace. Tracing glxgears is too > late as Mesa will simply give up if DRI3 is not initialized. > > # Make sure Xwayland on restart prints "i965_dri.so does not support the = 0xffffffff PCI ID." > $ pkill Xwayland > $ PATH=3D$HOME/.local/bin:$PATH > $ cat ~/.local/bin/Xwayland > #! /bin/sh > > # Exclude current directory from PATH > PATH=3D$(IFS=3D:; for p in $PATH; do case $p in (${0%/*});; (*) echo -n "= $p:" ;; esac; done) > > # Run the actual app > exec ktrace -f /tmp/xwayland.$(id -u).ktrace ${0##*/} "$@" The trace shows usage of llvmpipe after the failed ioctl on /dev/dri/card0, so as I understand the lack of hardware acceleration concerns only Xwayland, whereas wayland itself is accelerated ? I also have this output: Refusing to try glamor on llvmpipe EGL setup failed, disabling glamor Failed to initialize glamor, falling back to sw From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 20:20:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9452AEC3B for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:20:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100032901bd.2df80027e185ca560ed3acf7816df01a@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495dNt0Vmfz43J7 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:20:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100032901bd.2df80027e185ca560ed3acf7816df01a@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587414030; x=1590006030; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=N+3Wy6eEcxyyxxZi/MIC1mIBHD1w9t46mQCvBVQjOWE=; b=h/VV5feyUNBq7Wc/2e/KQtjCaKm06FRjcHKIubHFSlrJhAOAnNIfMjFY5KPNDtPx252U2BXf+a3CzbbXYnlFhdYqgv8bd1/DdCNiiq1V6YCPiTXGTWUgrURrz4CYum2Ekoax6tWRaq12KlLNq8Q8VTIOu46mBAKwi8esFOlyJ0Y= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDMyOTAxYmQuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:20:21 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 16:20:20 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jQctv-0008Cw-0Y; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:20:19 +0100 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:20:18 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Jacques Foucry Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] Message-Id: <20200420212018.7adfeb3713b143b243d83090@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200420201234.GC2970@mithril.foucry.net> References: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420205845.a04c1ee6be848c01444e2d51@sohara.org> <20200420201234.GC2970@mithril.foucry.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495dNt0Vmfz43J7 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=h/VV5fey; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100032901bd.2df80027e185ca560ed3acf7816df01a@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100032901bd.2df80027e185ca560ed3acf7816df01a@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.971,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.23), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.33), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100032901bd.2df80027e185ca560ed3acf7816df01a@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100032901bd.2df80027e185ca560ed3acf7816df01a@email-od.com]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:20:30 -0000 On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:12:34 +0200 Jacques Foucry wrote: > Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 à 20:58:45 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith à écrit: > > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:19:35 +0200 > > Jacques Foucry wrote: > > > > > > > pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. > > > > > > So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? > > > > These lines in the port Makefile seem to be the reason. > > > > DEPRECATED= Old, uses EOLed python27 > > EXPIRATION_DATE= 2020-02-28 > > Hug… > > Don't find those lines on the Makefile in my port three: > Instaed, concerning python, I have those lines: > > USES= gnome python:3.5+ shebangfix looks like my ports tree needs an update :) > USE_GNOME= intltool pygobject3 vte3 > USE_PYTHON= autoplist distutils > > And it compile perfectly on my system Quarterly packages perhaps ? -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 20:31:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05DA82AF29D for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:31:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (dontpanic.foucry.net [80.67.176.134]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495dd326Pqz44HM for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:31:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.foucry.net (mithril.foucry.net [127.0.0.1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1648018BB5; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:31:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:31:02 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: Steve O'Hara-Smith Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] Message-ID: <20200420203102.GD2970@mithril.foucry.net> Mail-Followup-To: Steve O'Hara-Smith , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420205845.a04c1ee6be848c01444e2d51@sohara.org> <20200420201234.GC2970@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420212018.7adfeb3713b143b243d83090@sohara.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20200420212018.7adfeb3713b143b243d83090@sohara.org> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495dd326Pqz44HM X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=foucry.net (policy=none) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.57 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[foucry.net : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[mithril.localdomain]; HFILTER_HELO_NORES_A_OR_MX(0.30)[mithril.localdomain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(-0.98)[ipnet: 80.67.160.0/19(-2.73), asn: 20766(-2.15), country: FR(0.00)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20766, ipnet:80.67.160.0/19, country:FR]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:31:04 -0000 Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 à 21:20:18 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith à écrit: > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:12:34 +0200 > Jacques Foucry wrote: > > > Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 à 20:58:45 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith à écrit: > > > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:19:35 +0200 > > > Jacques Foucry wrote: > > > > > > > > > > pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. > > > > > > > > So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? > > > > > > These lines in the port Makefile seem to be the reason. > > > > > > DEPRECATED= Old, uses EOLed python27 > > > EXPIRATION_DATE= 2020-02-28 > > > > Hug… > > > > Don't find those lines on the Makefile in my port three: > > Instaed, concerning python, I have those lines: > > > > USES= gnome python:3.5+ shebangfix > > looks like my ports tree needs an update :) :-) I made an update just befor compiling. :-) > > > USE_GNOME= intltool pygobject3 vte3 > > USE_PYTHON= autoplist distutils > > > > And it compile perfectly on my system > > Quarterly packages perhaps ? No, I use lastest: [snip] Repositories: FreeBSD: { url : "pkg+http://pkg.FreeBSD.org/FreeBSD:12:amd64/latest", enabled : yes, priority : 0, mirror_type : "SRV", signature_type : "FINGERPRINTS", fingerprints : "/usr/share/keys/pkg" } -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 20:42:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789132AF75A for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:42:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495dt26wvFz45PC for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:42:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.27.149]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue108 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MulyX-1j8xy12snT-00rqev; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:42:14 +0200 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:42:14 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] Message-Id: <20200420224214.266961b7.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:bdBN8dYFkkBYtAa5e9QSDgzWAZsKdHnnsv93vZ8c6PV40NvsOKs RnUlqx1z3RTVB73DoNNkb1v337Hdj1IOOcl0iYlys0WQFfYqu3qvPfvHa06wSlguXoFn9ON RbplbXdCkVNQBjq01LK2EKoTWlwi43HTb2CwXEz1S5yIdKlwAmbSHPgHSdhU7/Hew0dS/8W 3RpISta1duBrdx6SSyvEw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:lRl7y+LH240=:3GAPvK4ffJWHkL8UeNR9LV FxuoeNBdmscyhPqWw4Z1KHUFd6M00u5txVIWuE+9O3rJxSemH4bOkboK/hOPg4rhvckscydU2 YQ02X9uDgKxSpzidYR9TKbcTvDD1cs0qsMF/+2uQDsHnWtdwnSVyiitsHQ+ef7F0/6SWaVdmj ZFx/mxvhv4fcDBSms12ZUW8wlwTyfMBwtkYfvT9twCnqezi2PEpTc8RFn6XzBd9QrHhUv8PQZ 62eCswdyebycpLEK2h3K7TD8RN16gqo4mycOXo9CykN1ujwg40Z92pbHafomnGtUoStWoABng fQV93SR18wNNdj2uodv47Gway6+3JE8sMeOJiqEJr4qGtx/HN7rENO0KrP5bU9GwuRwiG6aDt RUEhvQtnvetSxZNl+2PIY2uQbM04yVaWkFdZrdYeub9COg/QrEoYp758NrghajfI88DXtUaes 1hBAny3z9n4BYvYZwRCtPDzL7kPTjO64cD3Z8QcczgeN7wCbxFA5CBA7grLluGt/qtXErzrW+ neCRZwIRMgfZ0mUdVjw5Td7A/VbpipMAM3uVNuJnvgsi/NQFEzCXZ/j7Pd+WYq/0AFgXg8nTA LxpxWKTMZ9zEQDUo8TprYYsz5K2/PwmUBFUBoATqerOTsi648E92hi86J7x+IeIBdLvILgV2n Sjxy0dPDNafLFPqBHun9kfiIgm1PK58LZzeAFU0bXSeLsLTwC7kmeZe6rs1SV0cxsPKVPE103 DR8pocfOui/M8tCtpP6cyTTXMKBoZpdPqETjziF2vhkmrC4iz2joshPOipceX491Yv/a/L4Bu QF9zaNTagRRYvTLDfP2UXpvkVpFKiom+/Xh/x5oF5P5R47pdIIn5IsJDyZx+WIVY4/l5pb3 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495dt26wvFz45PC X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.96 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.09)[ip: (-0.42), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(2.08), country: DE(-0.02)]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[149.27.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.49)[0.487,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.991,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[13.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 20:42:20 -0000 On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 14:34:41 -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 4/20/20 2:19 PM, Jacques Foucry wrote: > > Dear all, > >=20 > > According to this page (https://www.freshports.org/x11/terminator/), us= ing > > latest as pkg repo, I should be able to install 'terminator'. > >=20 > > But, > > ``` > > sudo pkg install terminator > > Password=A0: > > Updating FreeBSD repository catalogue... > > FreeBSD repository is up to date. > > All repositories are up to date. > > Updating database digests format: 100% > > pkg: No packages available to install matching 'terminator' have been f= ound in the repositories > > ``` > >=20 > > pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. > >=20 > > So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? >=20 > Nothing is wrong, this merely means that terminator is not built and=20 > hence is not distributed as package. There may be several reasons for=20 > that. I can think of some (without regard to any specific package: > [...] > 5. - I'm sure there may be a bunch of other reasons, hopefully some=20 > expert will add and/or correct me 6. The port does not allow binary distribution, i. e., it _has to_ be built from source ("licensing issue"). If I remember correctly, the "lame" MP3 encoder is (or was)=20 an example of such a port - you _had to_ build it from source as there was no package available for use with "pkg install". --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 01:18:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39942B55AD for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 01:18:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495m185qsFz4SgM for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 01:18:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495m185qsFz4SgM X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.50 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.12)[ip: (-0.34), ipnet: 65.112.0.0/12(-0.06), asn: 209(-0.13), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[42.55.121.65.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 01:18:53 -0000 On 20 Apr 2020, at 02:24, Ihor Antonov wrote: > But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X11 Perhaps. A tiny percentage. The rest will continue as they are now, = avoiding X11 at all costs because it is insecure bloat that interferes = with the desired operation of the machine. FreeBSD doesn=E2=80=99t delude its users into thinking it is a = reasoanable desktop; linux does but it is a delusion. --=20 I WILL NOT SCREAM FOR ICE CREAM Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF03 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 01:21:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690C42B597B for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 01:21:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from philip@list.199903.xyz) Received: from mail.postale.io (mail.postale.io [5.135.179.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.postale.io", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495m425mJpz4T0S for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 01:21:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from philip@list.199903.xyz) To: FreeBSD From: Philip Subject: freebsd with 5G network interface Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:21:11 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: from localhost (Unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mail.postale.io (Haraka) with ESMTPSA id B96BC6CD-3855-442B-9838-EFDA0AC4737F.1 envelope-from (authenticated bits=0) (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 01:21:14 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; bh=GtcnyDdCcB74Yi6sj4TLAtSntHBzjeP9Qmbq+WNMU9s=; c=relaxed/simple; d=list.199903.xyz; h=from:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version; s=s20200415127; b=lBJueDZe9LlZGjC1kQcON3ZQRqoVm0BMJNmzWK9UfdLLO+5r8j+ed4dConiULRh7X6Wst3ntZTxhQ+MUUcKVaWLHd7u0aooxt7u6H55z1/e3+0LTK56Ub2RjM4tWCiXxYaSXFEn6YEF8bTUDC6+/2UlCR459wcOZP//XpAUBP4A= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495m425mJpz4T0S X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none (invalid DKIM record) header.d=list.199903.xyz header.s=s20200415127 header.b=lBJueDZe; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of philip@list.199903.xyz designates 5.135.179.34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=philip@list.199903.xyz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.60)[-0.603,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[199903.xyz]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.89)[-0.893,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[list.199903.xyz:~]; R_DKIM_PERMFAIL(0.00)[list.199903.xyz:s=s20200415127]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.59)[ipnet: 5.135.0.0/16(0.92), asn: 16276(2.01), country: FR(0.00)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:5.135.0.0/16, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 01:21:24 -0000 How to make freebsd support 5G network interface hardware? Thanks. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 04:49:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4602BE837 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 04:49:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clay.daniels.jr@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495rh62w8Tz3G8H for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 04:49:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from clay.daniels.jr@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id n6so9175140ljg.12 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:49:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lRYyRf/vJ0TSpXhcGn7ySgdVDC/BNX1ii4RpJmbguHM=; b=qRVh+PlZJUyIgnC9IVGg8VeT64ZgH9GzDhtAhS+59TzAkCVutswxRfmqn0H9UYbnRG bkZmndSvFVD4WroITIaQW7Np0BBvNwcfRS5WUawTafvzUrTv00rpVjiInPrPtOe7E4gn PgaOfUHTgAzgzEl/bzeLXYcbjpwKoFpN+y1rLI3AAmgOjwZRl8DDSiO/uxFAedDObSOQ +VyVpxHiIs6OYnWAJtnQ2VFN3VBIRzGHrFGCXeLK1QKsk2j86epqFKAAGtyt/Irsp7f4 H5tnx/5sH306UWrESce3rtHmXy/55LlSmfF3dqqoHVUwi2neO6GooRdn5byo10g6xsBW x9EQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lRYyRf/vJ0TSpXhcGn7ySgdVDC/BNX1ii4RpJmbguHM=; b=CrwPS2JnQe7qh7lJUK3rqcpW/twJsm42T8dNUJT2T8HCW42RNwKiQO5qNg4cB+O4Np WfjOEbpLSynhBXcphHMr6gsQ9PCPlmqJAsATSB2bgHrxhA2SjC82dgOTMpbJOssKuoMb 16J8qZD0mFezVoXEzl8Jx3iikTl/Fr98CiSTJdeRgfOcl75ZhVZRVnxN3zZVKWH3JJTI mcMQUxNlTBMSsS27+4/y35Fsz9yrTJrUnpesTJsmwYpqsgSYrAIk6uFgj3RzTN2SmxoP UnLY50v2Ix2oNtN8v2YkcP5WYhAShMaXbTTdSMbQL0nlnJO5gNoF8G3A/SYh6NQfOl5F pWsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZgjtSPceIVj97Zj1PNEJK1ZBb+v/+XDnCGSWwrGheFp7zhSXW+ Gg1wSfFF/qb9HJIwdMtifzjDDUP46Y7ukdeXMDE7nO0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIA0VWpuq6U7Film5+5UStk3dC0Zt3EE4R0nZY62gPl4fV1QTcFHLvNUPzoNjBEmhslE1aDm4H1RdEupg0qfNo= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b8c7:: with SMTP id s7mr12342226ljp.212.1587444563333; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:49:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clay Daniels Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 23:49:11 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd with 5G network interface To: Philip Cc: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495rh62w8Tz3G8H X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=qRVh+PlZ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of claydanielsjr@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=claydanielsjr@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.32), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.34), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 04:49:27 -0000 Making sure you install IPv6 on install would be a good start. On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 8:21 PM Philip wrote: > How to make freebsd support 5G network interface hardware? > > Thanks. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 05:42:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F022C0917 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 05:42:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) Received: from admin.sibptus.ru (admin.sibptus.ru [IPv6:2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495srt5vWHz3K3P for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 05:42:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vas@sibptus.ru) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sibptus.ru; s=20181118; h=Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To; bh=G8R1aH9gCJ7z0dLqtijwVTCIH6KOiAEcbyLR3qCmzwk=; b=HqOE4WEr43ChzJqZENB7oo8DQx TtKWi15m1eEaEBGfr4RpbgT+rfnS4dn25FAz+E9LBZ+dZ74+FcwBBbrNE0POJ0NNY781cs5y3Okjy 1QCDcSes1Li1Wuz3DZ7q+/9d1lPh1yAWYArExF4RaGHi6PgtuAqJiileQlby2TZP5QtU=; Received: from vas by admin.sibptus.ru with local (Exim 4.93.0.4 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jQlfT-000Ppv-G7 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:41:59 +0700 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:41:59 +0700 From: Victor Sudakov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: ZFS used space (mis)calculation? Message-ID: <20200421054159.GA99203@admin.sibptus.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jI8keyz6grp/JLjh" Content-Disposition: inline X-PGP-Key: http://admin.sibptus.ru/~vas/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 10E3 1171 1273 E007 C2E9 3532 0DA4 F259 9B5E C634 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495srt5vWHz3K3P X-Spamd-Bar: ------- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sibptus.ru header.s=20181118 header.b=HqOE4WEr; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sibptus.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of vas@sibptus.ru designates 2001:19f0:5001:21dc::10 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=vas@sibptus.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-7.36 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sibptus.ru:s=20181118]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sibptus.ru:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sibptus.ru,none]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:2001:19f0:5000::/38, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(-3.26)[ip: (-9.89), ipnet: 2001:19f0:5000::/38(-4.94), asn: 20473(-1.40), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 05:42:07 -0000 --jI8keyz6grp/JLjh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Colleagues, How can it happen that the sum total of all space occupied by snapshots does not equal USEDSNAP? 130+21.4+20.2+19.8=3D191.4, not 219G. Where are my missing 150G ? Please look (a complete picture, nothing redacted): # zfs list -t all -o space NAME AVAIL USED USEDSNAP USEDDS = USEDREFRESERV USEDCHILD fastdrive 371G 784G 52K 23K = 0 784G fastdrive@2020-04-17_00.05.00--5d - 13K - - = - - fastdrive@2020-04-17_12.05.00--5d - 0 - - = - - fastdrive@2020-04-18_00.05.00--5d - 0 - - = - - fastdrive@2020-04-18_12.05.00--5d - 0 - - = - - fastdrive@2020-04-19_00.05.00--5d - 0 - - = - - fastdrive@2020-04-19_12.05.00--5d - 0 - - = - - fastdrive@2020-04-20_00.05.00--5d - 0 - - = - - fastdrive@2020-04-20_12.05.00--5d - 0 - - = - - fastdrive/pg_data 371G 783G 219G 565G = 0 0 fastdrive/pg_data@2020-04-19_00.05.00--5d - 130G - - = - - fastdrive/pg_data@2020-04-19_12.05.00--5d - 21.4G - - = - - fastdrive/pg_data@2020-04-20_00.05.00--5d - 20.2G - - = - - fastdrive/pg_data@2020-04-20_12.05.00--5d - 19.8G - - = - - --=20 Victor Sudakov, VAS4-RIPE, VAS47-RIPN 2:5005/49@fidonet http://vas.tomsk.ru/ --jI8keyz6grp/JLjh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJenoenAAoJEA2k8lmbXsY0u8gIAJlsjJYEPC8jjrngDEbGtc4G a8TMSzW6kyy+mHHrVIREq9/sQMvC50RxRTaWKJceVjVi8uY/QoA9wtq8OhMkJW84 /X3bi4sp5r4OvIloj5Jos3RBT0kPyHq73TJ+N0MqlfaqclqtCC3Zu53O2TrtU7iX GPhIimK6j4v5y4OgEa52vOl7rTE+Ot+m58oq9CzX2OJQXLdhgUgfXMITPSsecMcK 0mRDoQ+iTLz26WOGFdw6WLl3uo0GOrUWkxjm9h3bH+HGeWzddaKA6ym5ty5WlIjP IuwkyeRVZm+7RIR5DlIzogBmNPD5gsc66fh4CrBeOsePuQENeYV3FAbmm9hQsW4= =j4v4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jI8keyz6grp/JLjh-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 06:33:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFF22C1BB6 for ; 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Tue, 21 Apr 2020 02:33:15 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 02:33:14 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jQmT3-000B4b-9n for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:33:13 +0100 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:33:13 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200421073313.17e6f4350d3facfd728854e8@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495v013JrYz3Mpx X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=PAcmXSGV; 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ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100033083d4.e1cd5886834fd3270923a2bc483ab154@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:33:22 -0000 On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600 "@lbutlr" wrote: > FreeBSD doesn’t delude its users into thinking it is a reasoanable > desktop; linux does but it is a delusion. FreeBSD makes a better graphical workstation than Sun ever did, that's what I want of it. I would hate to lose that. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 06:59:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483B82C23A0 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:59:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495vZ91fgSz3P2Q for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:59:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10A0C1108 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:59:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo12-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hRWvrNjHXE0p for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:59:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87201C0F66 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:59:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03L6xP29073642 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:59:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Subject: Re: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420205845.a04c1ee6be848c01444e2d51@sohara.org> <20200420201234.GC2970@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420212018.7adfeb3713b143b243d83090@sohara.org> <20200420203102.GD2970@mithril.foucry.net> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: <0fdbc6f7-926b-fc63-709d-4caa0bd693da@hedeland.org> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:59:25 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200420203102.GD2970@mithril.foucry.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495vZ91fgSz3P2Q X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of per@hedeland.org has no SPF policy when checking 64.68.202.10) smtp.mailfrom=per@hedeland.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.92 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[209.157.228.81.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.27)[ip: (0.23), ipnet: 64.68.200.0/22(-0.13), asn: 16686(1.34), country: CA(-0.09)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.17)[0.170,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.68)[0.682,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hedeland.org]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[10.202.68.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16686, ipnet:64.68.200.0/22, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:59:30 -0000 On 2020-04-20 22:31, Jacques Foucry wrote: > Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 21:20:18 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith crit: >> On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:12:34 +0200 >> Jacques Foucry wrote: >> >>> Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 20:58:45 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith crit: >>>> On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:19:35 +0200 >>>> Jacques Foucry wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. >>>>> >>>>> So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? >>>> >>>> These lines in the port Makefile seem to be the reason. >>>> >>>> DEPRECATED= Old, uses EOLed python27 >>>> EXPIRATION_DATE= 2020-02-28 >>> >>> Hug& >>> >>> Don't find those lines on the Makefile in my port three: >>> Instaed, concerning python, I have those lines: >>> >>> USES= gnome python:3.5+ shebangfix >> >> looks like my ports tree needs an update :) > > :-) > > I made an update just befor compiling. :-) > >> >>> USE_GNOME= intltool pygobject3 vte3 >>> USE_PYTHON= autoplist distutils >>> >>> And it compile perfectly on my system >> >> Quarterly packages perhaps ? > > No, I use lastest: The port was un-deprecated only the day before you posted your message, see https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/head/x11/terminator/Makefile?r1=532123&r2=532122&pathrev=532123 - I would guess there's some delay before such changes take effect for the package bulding. --Per Hedeland From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 07:13:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5CA2C2A3E for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:13:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: from mail-01.thismonkey.com (mail-01.thismonkey.com [IPv6:2406:3400:35e:6602::a01:232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "thismonkey.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495vtT1SwTz3Pvy for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:13:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) X-TM-Via-MX: mail-01.thismonkey.com Received: from utility-01.thismonkey.com (utility-01.thismonkey.com [IPv6:2406:3400:35e:6601:0:0:a01:120]) by mail-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03L7DKRe025941 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: from utility-01.thismonkey.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by utility-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 03L7DKpM049294 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by utility-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03L7DKtg049293 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:20 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:20 +1000 From: Scott To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Should fsck honour "failok" in fstab as mount does? Message-ID: <20200421071319.GA98163@thismonkey.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.4 (2019-03-13) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail-01.thismonkey.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495vtT1SwTz3Pvy X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=thismonkey.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com designates 2406:3400:35e:6602::a01:232 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[thismonkey.com,none]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10143, ipnet:2406:3400:300::/40, country:AU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.94)[ip: (-8.40), ipnet: 2406:3400:300::/40(-4.20), asn: 10143(2.88), country: AU(0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:13:38 -0000 Hi, mount ignores failed mount attempts when "failok" is specified as an option in /etc/fstab allowing the boot process to continue. However, fsck does not, and I think it should. It shouldn't mark an FS as clean, obviously, just not drop into single-user mode - let mount do that when it tries to mount an FS without the "failok" option. Thoughts? Scott From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 07:42:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50AE2C351D for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:42:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (dontpanic.foucry.net [80.67.176.134]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495wWq39Jyz3wgM for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:42:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.foucry.net (mithril.foucry.net [127.0.0.1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id A082018C16 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:42:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:42:29 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did I miss something? [inatalling terminator] Message-ID: <20200421074229.GF2970@mithril.foucry.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200420191935.GA73334@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420205845.a04c1ee6be848c01444e2d51@sohara.org> <20200420201234.GC2970@mithril.foucry.net> <20200420212018.7adfeb3713b143b243d83090@sohara.org> <20200420203102.GD2970@mithril.foucry.net> <0fdbc6f7-926b-fc63-709d-4caa0bd693da@hedeland.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <0fdbc6f7-926b-fc63-709d-4caa0bd693da@hedeland.org> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495wWq39Jyz3wgM X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=foucry.net (policy=none) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.57 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[foucry.net : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.995,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[mithril.localdomain]; HFILTER_HELO_NORES_A_OR_MX(0.30)[mithril.localdomain]; IP_SCORE(-0.97)[ipnet: 80.67.160.0/19(-2.72), asn: 20766(-2.14), country: FR(0.00)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20766, ipnet:80.67.160.0/19, country:FR]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 07:42:32 -0000 Le mardi 21 avr. 2020 à 08:59:25 (+0200), Per Hedeland à écrit: > On 2020-04-20 22:31, Jacques Foucry wrote: > > Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 à 21:20:18 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith à écrit: > >> On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:12:34 +0200 > >> Jacques Foucry wrote: > >> > >>> Le lundi 20 avr. 2020 à 20:58:45 (+0100), Steve O'Hara-Smith à écrit: > >>>> On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:19:35 +0200 > >>>> Jacques Foucry wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> pkg search terminator did not give me any awswer. > >>>>> > >>>>> So, what's wrong? What' your thought about it? > >>>> > >>>> These lines in the port Makefile seem to be the reason. > >>>> > >>>> DEPRECATED= Old, uses EOLed python27 > >>>> EXPIRATION_DATE= 2020-02-28 > >>> > >>> Hug& > >>> > >>> Don't find those lines on the Makefile in my port three: > >>> Instaed, concerning python, I have those lines: > >>> > >>> USES= gnome python:3.5+ shebangfix > >> > >> looks like my ports tree needs an update :) > > > > :-) > > > > I made an update just befor compiling. :-) > > > >> > >>> USE_GNOME= intltool pygobject3 vte3 > >>> USE_PYTHON= autoplist distutils > >>> > >>> And it compile perfectly on my system > >> > >> Quarterly packages perhaps ? > > > > No, I use lastest: > > The port was un-deprecated only the day before you posted your > message, see > https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/head/x11/terminator/Makefile?r1=532123&r2=532122&pathrev=532123 > - I would guess there's some delay before such changes take effect for > the package bulding. Ok, thanks for take time to digginگ into svn. Take care (all of you) -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 13:07:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA3C2CCF89 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:07:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4963lH2ymwz4Hs4 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:07:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.27.149]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MlNgz-1ixIdA2yaL-00lkDm; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:07:45 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:07:41 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "@lbutlr" Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Mv2rslgFwelT7vJo21gLO3l9HkRPzZFKqCwkPJuE4v4NZPXC1d+ +2FD8aXZs0xV4J51NpJP8EH6RuyUPmKiHecCV44yv+1wf3Lfp70ryPBw6ZmOVv65kzZUKZa li0XTQ3PPCpqZ2yhrpdVghpI4NQXeEB0SYs+TCCvdp+pmm4+XrTAL56x7vGRzC7EPXASL6m dBezao/EtcGrixFbfFe/g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:VUewuOs+LVY=:fr7IHe3vlm2CS4OzjopwSR 3iZTOI46mZuYWV/Zen12WVvRh+fT1bDeBHL6qdkCSRpXmaiqPYfYVLj7zhCAt/wHKfsNWFOcn On0R7IubME50Rm0U5kbrfzn86q605mIsmRhel9RlRg5+DJlaHgUatSCjy2+I0s+o5uIkhkldF oYHRE2ryMSpE37AJQoBuUzekVqpLYdv4gFig92OasgXEFolg8geFmckfub6+6neGma+BWj6KR jXcmVAKV9Z4ikY98Q8UzQu2OjCnVogf+K3zthi8LNznJVCixZKgT+Nh6hwoArQq2GDMfdk/lE 8FBRlgYMdrMa4ntpxljLYVgmX+vB+mxe+Ngm5b9/3/+7zNB2Ptd/Go2y3Ju2QsRioltCDcocy pfa12wy0bnguR7qYbVUTAKZq83jzxiPw1fQNXUPY8AipfuFNXs/rZr9DrEaZdZ8AlsGuTH9a6 DXetkTzHQl/lEa6PdawN7GX8VokoKUS1a386niLuHJB2llTEyEms8llohgJMoUs4PEi/WyFMj GgTDQJ6IPUclcETA02GTluzcR1e5L6FQo+C/VgKecOlyLigBYoya3soMfQ48zhFBsff1PFl09 LMv0DuP4au3+Dfe1u5hPLWiSKgCdt+FFTc8xjae66tlDNDmsb26Slhjf+CpHFgkjnTsXYSSyc K/msWkesTMZDKZhwgItyiJjr+BTnUSXA+6GBPGl5seuUCjxOoHuAvrVjd/M/ZUfvjxXa3AuLr maAJHyZKZKn5UxQgGhmsJHUFFRhEmpi66vg2bnHVi1GMoSL0eupVgPON5BSGNnana0t8yOQXB QCRZGVRg51HJWQfOTDhwFaMRpIMOrU9I+w/IcbzHYTxr3kjfoC9smOjaYcSJOGdqGV7/2al X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4963lH2ymwz4Hs4 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.130) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.78 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[149.27.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.89)[0.889,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.999,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[130.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[130.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.49)[ip: (1.61), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(2.08), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:07:56 -0000 On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > On 20 Apr 2020, at 02:24, Ihor Antonov wrote: > > But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X11 > > Perhaps. A tiny percentage. The rest will continue as they are now, > avoiding X11 at all costs because it is insecure bloat that > interferes with the desired operation of the machine. Depends. If Wayland can offer all features that X11 offers at the moment, there will probably be no major problem in transition. Being able to utilize 3D support and all the driver confusion is definitely a point to work on. > FreeBSD doesn’t delude its users into thinking it is a > reasoanable desktop; linux does but it is a delusion. No idea what I'm "obviously" doing wrong for decades... I'm using FreeBSD as a very reliable (!), convenient, modern, pleasant, do-not-interfere-with-my-intentions kind of desktop for probably 20 years, for regular desktop use, development, gaming, media, everything. Personally, I'm not missing _anything_ that's important to me; on the other side, Linux desktops do not offer this kind of reliability yet. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 13:16:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A882CD509 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:16:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4963xN4k8jz4JSR for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:16:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03LDFKY9052359 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:15:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Subject: Re: More On FreeBSD Network Speed (Was: Changes To nat-ing Behaviour?) From: Tim Daneliuk To: FreeBSD Mailing List References: Message-ID: <8fb087fc-4548-ddbd-ba22-684678c58df8@tundraware.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:15:14 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:15:20 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 03LDFKY9052359 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, timed out) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4963xN4k8jz4JSR X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tundra@tundraware.com designates 45.55.60.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tundra@tundraware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.930,0]; IP_SCORE(0.53)[ip: (-1.42), ipnet: 45.55.32.0/19(2.88), asn: 14061(1.24), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.905,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:16:41 -0000 On 4/20/20 3:00 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: > Linux and FreeBSD have superframe MTUs of 9000 set MacOS MTU is set to 1500. For anyone else that may run into this: For reasons unclear to me, FreeBSD hated that the Linux box was forcing an MTU of 9000, even though FreeBSD had the same thing set. The fix was to tell Linux to use automatic MTU negotiation and all was well. Interestingly, when I did this, Linux decide 1500 was the right size and performance came back. Go figure... -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 13:32:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CBB2CDE29 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:32:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4964H74y80z4KdY for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:32:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.27.149]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M27Bp-1jOy7u2uHR-002ZQa; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:31:47 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:31:44 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Scott Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should fsck honour "failok" in fstab as mount does? Message-Id: <20200421153144.d45a889b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200421071319.GA98163@thismonkey.com> References: <20200421071319.GA98163@thismonkey.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:/1/kdTYEM36BYMdG4TPFsoSq9lkSx7VN/FK6Zw5byJSP+XYOvBx 3qJQecPAX5oSLqUrQ14AxWnTdV/Oa6+ai7v0gz+W7tzgbNbfhjCGiL6ASCnCFgv5nhRiiYu nOGoqkpS3J4+HwiucEnzXcrVGySmbHRR/yCeE2BQNjjech03w66Wc84OGtAMBJ3n7tWpqq/ 70k5qD3o64cDwzfGfXj1Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:fb4CKuKLlS0=:J75m1LwBbLfPHXYLwbiM7k WWFBqcY/WfVbV4ihb2EYmA+digg5z3liGyOLetFyuOe9eCaKTadggnXQ1Tw/53lhlzXaN1hJB Euv0mU1vYQAcLaW2CpR6mQMCiz5D4wjI7MgEI/nkZwwYbXlHHeKnakFtN90Mr8gH8nAGJlSWO bvoEgz2eiIUxO9/lR6OztKivpVzCJzh90IHA3n790z3gDy3bvazollTRuin3RTLdmrelpH3zh yRB4Q2glzbnEz+xHC6kMCB/Wm1BeqOuPTSD2xFlQui+76v54wtrf8KuqZYxzVYGVO/LZ52lqk omN93WdeC78QuOvLqnfqPRlqoseV5QF0M30HVaVBpfOl0v5JZJS2uyS99jQJgXSR8JEcELR+C rBvupcQKhOMXN1/3ovIbGP1nMZ6S4gy+AtdTNNPeYo0Kde66rFdipD2wZhdK/Mnvu3Z88lhLf P6bJ2LLSszbXHq912Y3ii5yuBLlqzjQAC0NpfyFU7E0/DpydGg4d/QJ2LWqQ/gHUTq+iqDKEO sbIK1IkQ8ChXCgcdgGni00ADyjyp+LVITYT50eMNpHdHpl8vM4Bv1gE9wtEMUBfxXcEhapBVA kuEVF1Uzzn1fK4If85enwVx/zhPtAM48dXDJHTPr6NuqMNP+tta+LqSiCQjjNduRGsyhtd9HY C1k6uszkl5ghRBZ4MaKxwMQO+CokWgncAruqQVBxqFRsbcnuwe48P4faIgm9sSGR11E+IqbH7 LwF9VQASzkboBkPNUFx2WeLHQjA/n60UzwMrEO5Ex+8mxehYdiX/2TlWuPbSnSBKBDIwdLhb3 g0hjwceI7pUOPMdjR27mlmkErU0K+GkAauQNb4fhblThu4fZAFQB4pTQU5QrMyPsAlQxyRX X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4964H74y80z4KdY X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.62 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[149.27.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.92)[0.917,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[133.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.30)[ip: (0.64), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(2.08), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:32:05 -0000 On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:20 +1000, Scott wrote: > mount ignores failed mount attempts when "failok" is specified as an option > in /etc/fstab allowing the boot process to continue. > > However, fsck does not, and I think it should. It shouldn't mark an FS as > clean, obviously, just not drop into single-user mode - let mount do that > when it tries to mount an FS without the "failok" option. In my opinion, this sounds wrong. If a filesystem is damaged, it's generally a bad idea to boot from it or mount it, as it often leads to inconsistencies, strange errors, and other things definitely not desired. Background fsck doesn't really work. The file /etc/fstab is the filesystem table intended for use with mount; the fact that fsck uses it is just a nice side effect, but not its primary use. That's why the options field is intended for the mount command. >From "man 5 fstab": The fourth field, (fs_mntops), describes the mount options associated with the file system. This matches the behaviour intended with the "failok" option. It is intended for the mount program. Again from "man 5 fstab": If the option ``failok'' is specified, the system will ignore any error which happens during the mount of that filesystem, which would otherwise cause the system to drop into single user mode. This option is imple- mented by the mount(8) command and will not be passed to the kernel. Nothing here is related to fsck. The effect that the system drops into single-user mode is also intended. When fsck is invoked - upon filesystem error - it will automatically repair minor defects, and afterwards the system will continue booting. In case of major defects the system operator is expected to make decisions. It _might_ be possible that he does not want fsck to attempt any further repair, and instead relapse to other tools (data recovery, or restore from backup right away). Certain aspects of this behaviour can be controlled with the followint variables in /etc/rc.conf, for example: background_fsck="NO" # never! fsck_y_enable="YES" # always say "yes" fsck_y_flags="-f" # force fsck This will always force fsck to perform a full check and repair, and answer "yes" whenever needed, in case the initial preen ("minor defects repair mode") fails. The equivalent is: # fsck -y -f Keep in mind this is not always intended! That's why there is the single user mode, to allow a human decision. If you don't want fsck to stumble upon a damaged filesystem, do not include it in /etc/fstab. You can still use a custom rc.d-style script or an entry in /etc/rc.local if you wish to "maybe mount" non-vital or optional filesystems later on. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 13:54:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914062CE918 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:54:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: from mail-01.thismonkey.com (mail-01.thismonkey.com [IPv6:2406:3400:35e:6602::a01:232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "thismonkey.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4964n16dqmz4M4w for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:54:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) X-TM-Via-MX: mail-01.thismonkey.com Received: from utility-01.thismonkey.com (utility-01.thismonkey.com [IPv6:2406:3400:35e:6601:0:0:a01:120]) by mail-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03LDs7xp053164 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:54:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: from utility-01.thismonkey.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by utility-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 03LDs7pg001793; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:54:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by utility-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03LDs6gG001777; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:54:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:54:06 +1000 From: Scott To: Polytropon , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should fsck honour "failok" in fstab as mount does? Message-ID: <20200421135406.GA74559@thismonkey.com> Mail-Followup-To: Polytropon , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200421071319.GA98163@thismonkey.com> <20200421153144.d45a889b.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200421153144.d45a889b.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.4 (2019-03-13) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail-01.thismonkey.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4964n16dqmz4M4w X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=thismonkey.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com designates 2406:3400:35e:6602::a01:232 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[thismonkey.com,none]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10143, ipnet:2406:3400:300::/40, country:AU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.86)[ip: (-8.13), ipnet: 2406:3400:300::/40(-4.06), asn: 10143(2.87), country: AU(0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:54:32 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 03:31:44PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:20 +1000, Scott wrote: > > mount ignores failed mount attempts when "failok" is specified as an option > > in /etc/fstab allowing the boot process to continue. > > > > However, fsck does not, and I think it should. It shouldn't mark an FS as > > clean, obviously, just not drop into single-user mode - let mount do that > > when it tries to mount an FS without the "failok" option. > > In my opinion, this sounds wrong. If a filesystem is damaged, > it's generally a bad idea to boot from it or mount it, as > it often leads to inconsistencies, strange errors, and other > things definitely not desired. Background fsck doesn't really I agree entirely. So on those filesystems you would not use `failok'. > work. The file /etc/fstab is the filesystem table intended > for use with mount; the fact that fsck uses it is just a nice > side effect, but not its primary use. That's why the options > field is intended for the mount command. True, but that doesn't preclude fsck's use of any hints it may glean from /etc/fstab. > The effect that the system drops into single-user mode is > also intended. When fsck is invoked - upon filesystem error - Sure, but the point of `failok' is to continue booting even if the so optioned filesystem cannot mount for whatever reason. Unfortunately fsck makes no use of this indication and prevents booting. These two commands, fsck and mount need to work in tandem. > Keep in mind this is not always intended! That's why > there is the single user mode, to allow a human decision. Yes, again you would not specify `failok' if you wanted to stop booting for human intervention. > > If you don't want fsck to stumble upon a damaged filesystem, > do not include it in /etc/fstab. You can still use a custom > rc.d-style script or an entry in /etc/rc.local if you wish > to "maybe mount" non-vital or optional filesystems later on. Sure, but why would you want to do it that way? The same could be said when the `failok' option was not available to mount. Consider the situation where a device specified in /etc/fstab is not present during boot, say a USB stick. You've added the `failok' option to its /etc/fstab entry, declaring that if you can't mount the device, ignore the error and continue. fsck will still drop into single user mode. Does that make sense? Thanks for your response, Scott From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 14:09:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B9B2CEE4B for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:09:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49656r71WRz4Mp2 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:09:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.27.149]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MTiDV-1jo9dI1yMn-00U0XR; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:09:41 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:09:39 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Scott Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should fsck honour "failok" in fstab as mount does? 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The file /etc/fstab is the filesystem table intended > > for use with mount; the fact that fsck uses it is just a nice > > side effect, but not its primary use. That's why the options > > field is intended for the mount command. > > True, but that doesn't preclude fsck's use of any hints it may glean from > /etc/fstab. The 6th field of /etc/fstab, the "fsck column", is intnded to be used by fsck, as per the manual, but of course this does not say anything about "what to do in case of problems". > > The effect that the system drops into single-user mode is > > also intended. When fsck is invoked - upon filesystem error - > > Sure, but the point of `failok' is to continue booting even if the so > optioned filesystem cannot mount for whatever reason. Unfortunately fsck > makes no use of this indication and prevents booting. These two commands, > fsck and mount need to work in tandem. Yes, that is correct. However, it looks like "noauto" is basically what you're searching for. During the boot process, specific filesystems are gathered from /etc/fstab, and their consistency is tested before mounting, afterwards they are mounted. Later mounting and manual mounting is possible too, even with filesystems specified in /etc/fstab, but with the "noauto" mount option - in this case, fsck won't even look at them, except mount itself could complain ("so-and-so was not properly dismounted"). So the consensus seems to be: If you don't want fsck to look at a filesystem and maybe stop the boot process, use "noauto". If you want it to be mounted later on, do so manually (with of of the methods I mentioned, or entirely interactively). > > If you don't want fsck to stumble upon a damaged filesystem, > > do not include it in /etc/fstab. You can still use a custom > > rc.d-style script or an entry in /etc/rc.local if you wish > > to "maybe mount" non-vital or optional filesystems later on. > > Sure, but why would you want to do it that way? The same could be said when > the `failok' option was not available to mount. Right, this approach does not even require "failok". > Consider the situation where a device specified in /etc/fstab is not present > during boot, say a USB stick. You've added the `failok' option to its > /etc/fstab entry, declaring that if you can't mount the device, ignore the > error and continue. fsck will still drop into single user mode. Does that > make sense? Yes, because the entry in /etc/fstab says the device is _required_ during the boot process - any non-"noauto" entry is to be checked and mounted during system boot. The opposite of "noauto" is "auto", and it is the default - meaning, according to the manual: "to be automatically mounted at system startup". So any of such entries is considered "required for booting". I think you're expecting "failok" to do something it is not intended to do. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 14:30:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11DC2CF3F7 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:30:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100033c48b2.f511693fdf38a1756569a371c1354497@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4965ZR4vPPz4NYq for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:30:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100033c48b2.f511693fdf38a1756569a371c1354497@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587479424; x=1590071424; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=R5Lpz8EoeVmmt0el9ckWI0gMoVhywKSRVuYDiVEtDzg=; b=YxRDY9vIBVLtHD/ajenWz+i9HppKseBazrRSJAIxVF5069z4b9Ozc9Ridod3jd79UhlJmVZuvClqkCujgeAe7ZHiCVwd7HiLw6k24LA7D5YrI4DkEgYqeLYpD9gqxZZj6RkLPlGT/305WohSlYVBHXO0USGaVqExaOd6ldMJyoo= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDMzYzQ4YjIuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:30:16 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:30:15 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jQtuf-000Ccm-Uh; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:30:13 +0100 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:30:13 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Polytropon Cc: "@lbutlr" , FreeBSD Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200421153013.640ea96596f03973cb7cbc16@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4965ZR4vPPz4NYq X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=YxRDY9vI; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100033c48b2.f511693fdf38a1756569a371c1354497@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100033c48b2.f511693fdf38a1756569a371c1354497@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.65 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.23), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.32), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100033c48b2.f511693fdf38a1756569a371c1354497@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100033c48b2.f511693fdf38a1756569a371c1354497@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:30:24 -0000 On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:07:41 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > > On 20 Apr 2020, at 02:24, Ihor Antonov wrote: > > > But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X11 > > > > Perhaps. A tiny percentage. The rest will continue as they are now, > > avoiding X11 at all costs because it is insecure bloat that > > interferes with the desired operation of the machine. > > Depends. If Wayland can offer all features that X11 offers at > the moment, Wayland is not network transparent which has always been the major advantage (and disadvantage) of X11 over everything else. > there will probably be no major problem in transition. > Being able to utilize 3D support and all the driver confusion > is definitely a point to work on. The only thing is that Wayland uses the same troublesome DRI/DRM infrastructure as X11. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 14:33:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55C52CF74F for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:33:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: from mail-01.thismonkey.com (mail-01.thismonkey.com [IPv6:2406:3400:35e:6602::a01:232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "thismonkey.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4965fB3KbLz4P35 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:33:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) X-TM-Via-MX: mail-01.thismonkey.com Received: from utility-01.thismonkey.com (utility-01.thismonkey.com [IPv6:2406:3400:35e:6601:0:0:a01:120]) by mail-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03LEXMch055913 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:33:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: from utility-01.thismonkey.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by utility-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 03LEXMbo067341; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:33:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by utility-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03LEXLgP067329; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:33:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:33:21 +1000 From: Scott To: Polytropon , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should fsck honour "failok" in fstab as mount does? Message-ID: <20200421143321.GA33168@thismonkey.com> Mail-Followup-To: Polytropon , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200421071319.GA98163@thismonkey.com> <20200421153144.d45a889b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421135406.GA74559@thismonkey.com> <20200421160939.aa2fbd89.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200421160939.aa2fbd89.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.4 (2019-03-13) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail-01.thismonkey.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4965fB3KbLz4P35 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=thismonkey.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com designates 2406:3400:35e:6602::a01:232 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[thismonkey.com,none]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10143, ipnet:2406:3400:300::/40, country:AU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.78)[ip: (-7.86), ipnet: 2406:3400:300::/40(-3.93), asn: 10143(2.85), country: AU(0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:33:41 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 04:09:39PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:54:06 +1000, Scott wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 03:31:44PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:20 +1000, Scott wrote: > > > work. The file /etc/fstab is the filesystem table intended > > > for use with mount; the fact that fsck uses it is just a nice > > > side effect, but not its primary use. That's why the options > > > field is intended for the mount command. > > > > True, but that doesn't preclude fsck's use of any hints it may glean from > > /etc/fstab. > > The 6th field of /etc/fstab, the "fsck column", is intnded > to be used by fsck, as per the manual, but of course this > does not say anything about "what to do in case of problems". > > > > > > The effect that the system drops into single-user mode is > > > also intended. When fsck is invoked - upon filesystem error - > > > > Sure, but the point of `failok' is to continue booting even if the so > > optioned filesystem cannot mount for whatever reason. Unfortunately fsck > > makes no use of this indication and prevents booting. These two commands, > > fsck and mount need to work in tandem. > > Yes, that is correct. However, it looks like "noauto" is > basically what you're searching for. During the boot process, > specific filesystems are gathered from /etc/fstab, and their > consistency is tested before mounting, afterwards they are > mounted. Later mounting and manual mounting is possible too, > even with filesystems specified in /etc/fstab, but with the > "noauto" mount option - in this case, fsck won't even look > at them, except mount itself could complain ("so-and-so was > not properly dismounted"). So you've established that fsck parses the fs_mntops column for advice, which is great. Why not just make it recognise the `failok' option? > > So the consensus seems to be: If you don't want fsck to look > at a filesystem and maybe stop the boot process, use "noauto". > If you want it to be mounted later on, do so manually (with > of of the methods I mentioned, or entirely interactively). Yes but I DO want fsck to look at the filesystem, but continue if it fails (for example, if the device does not exist). Just like I DO want mount to mount the filesystem, but continue if it can't. > > > > If you don't want fsck to stumble upon a damaged filesystem, > > > do not include it in /etc/fstab. You can still use a custom > > > rc.d-style script or an entry in /etc/rc.local if you wish > > > to "maybe mount" non-vital or optional filesystems later on. > > > > Sure, but why would you want to do it that way? The same could be said when > > the `failok' option was not available to mount. > > Right, this approach does not even require "failok". > > > > Consider the situation where a device specified in /etc/fstab is not present > > during boot, say a USB stick. You've added the `failok' option to its > > /etc/fstab entry, declaring that if you can't mount the device, ignore the > > error and continue. fsck will still drop into single user mode. Does that > > make sense? > > Yes, because the entry in /etc/fstab says the device is _required_ > during the boot process - any non-"noauto" entry is to be checked > and mounted during system boot. The opposite of "noauto" is "auto", > and it is the default - meaning, according to the manual: "to be > automatically mounted at system startup". So any of such entries > is considered "required for booting". That's not completely true, because for NFS mounts we have the `bg' option, which allows the system to continue booting even if it can't be mounted. i.e.: not all `noauto' filesystems are _required_. > I think you're expecting "failok" to do something it is not > intended to do. > Not really. I want `failok' to do something it doesn't currently. Where would be the harm in patching fsck to recognise it? Given the resistance perhaps I should be pushing for fsck to continue on a non-existent device (really, how does a missing device fail a consistency check?). Then mount will presumably fail if the `failok' is not present. Scott From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 15:03:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E6222A82FA for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:03:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4966Jg1gnFz4QpG for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:03:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.27.149]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue010 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MgNQd-1ijKo80nip-00hwjC; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:03:15 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:03:13 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Scott Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should fsck honour "failok" in fstab as mount does? Message-Id: <20200421170313.16d4235e.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200421143321.GA33168@thismonkey.com> References: <20200421071319.GA98163@thismonkey.com> <20200421153144.d45a889b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421135406.GA74559@thismonkey.com> <20200421160939.aa2fbd89.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421143321.GA33168@thismonkey.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:+vhoCqoptar0QpsPfqajV5eskPZEhsji/focPPymG5FG7XwgSeS DkOF5dT/4GPfKhTQ/zulx3NnWsnwpdHAX87gLlpZfs97BnPdtOg115RVRxtDyWAv8WAvhA8 gvdCx58qDnBNEzTrKK+cVQDSqZb2UNjwZWNDnIDTaIo0FrgeL67BkJ80jfVUigl8xdw8W1I TczNyHYwPZ8YCmfUbuD4A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:VW5dme4PCQY=:DKDeapxwyG/gMJdOT89k3+ q0uyEjmHglRq61tvHjbPJNcjWN6kIn+DeYbfUIcChl28zXlXGyf/0RmDgbVFQ71FUYO6fkjK5 QPqc1fV840lLDVQYqMt2fB19zDznhizgi+On20+z9An2SNqGllFyEOwWoRzlbgu4+6uv0OQP0 j0eGXxHXpM2Y7RnbCeJn23SqB17xAjl871Oz0MyEgMxQuwblWtrpKrB6FXMa9COtGw///MxBS LmKUPv+4Lz6mHrnupQ5/7yyCpxBHvO/Q4Bxwc9ixyP3qAuOI+YdFaoslVxNhedeKfhK7S6EP9 hH+/TimTOOucX+4ETp8zpGGdseGzrSCKiRbhY3fVv8g7PGBxRsXBhplwufzrbJuiDjckMdwKY GpkVqTpQE5DpnQMpqT3AS0kPZZQQh4Ac4dkwBldpuC+KQMxrsDEGGjxawgbdja3C30RTDKzIv xwU/NDxRdGqAvaWFQxBKbrWN9+WoaS9rpuUkHIp4GKC1rarv2V6UjCQaDM7C0S5IpDIHPnt1N HxoM1lXV4jJ3tTf63w1AcWVyDrL5i2/l/g2ekUYS+/y5OJy4ZJ/mYBgsZIKxHJEkZhPYHNT/w t04cNEi5cH0zNBaZD+DhLbZnUJraQABcx/hS87uHD+YufRDSV2UuF0jvEHRQdvcvPFl4uc4mr 8RBU9wPxUM/ITc6Mr5XYYOMVs/HGgb8E1fIDHbeWBuWAdhmfC8y2c4DDW+Ad7jNisLehXNMek XpialOHdlgLzdw0fA6qrhaSOF+QNCCtTCjyBlFhvSfA2/dhvJxE/ylGi/K7kGcbgjXVLRS4Ah 6iCPIFlDVtp0i0NidVx34J0J1nNMlruo32iAnIPw2VDRuF6SB/h1QjoN6gMOHM6xIvfanQh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4966Jg1gnFz4QpG X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.62 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[149.27.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.92)[0.918,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[133.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.30)[ip: (0.63), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(2.08), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:03:33 -0000 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:33:21 +1000, Scott wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 04:09:39PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:54:06 +1000, Scott wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 03:31:44PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > > > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:20 +1000, Scott wrote: > > > > The effect that the system drops into single-user mode is > > > > also intended. When fsck is invoked - upon filesystem error - > > > > > > Sure, but the point of `failok' is to continue booting even if the so > > > optioned filesystem cannot mount for whatever reason. Unfortunately fsck > > > makes no use of this indication and prevents booting. These two commands, > > > fsck and mount need to work in tandem. > > > > Yes, that is correct. However, it looks like "noauto" is > > basically what you're searching for. During the boot process, > > specific filesystems are gathered from /etc/fstab, and their > > consistency is tested before mounting, afterwards they are > > mounted. Later mounting and manual mounting is possible too, > > even with filesystems specified in /etc/fstab, but with the > > "noauto" mount option - in this case, fsck won't even look > > at them, except mount itself could complain ("so-and-so was > > not properly dismounted"). > > So you've established that fsck parses the fs_mntops column for advice, which > is great. Why not just make it recognise the `failok' option? No, I'm not saying that. I'm referencing the manual for /etc/fstab, and it states the requirement that a filesystem is to be clean and mounted in order to perform automatic system startup, no matter if "failok" is set or not; from that documentation, I'd say that this option primarily does what you want, except it just applies to _clean_ filesystems. The boot process is in the order "first fsck, then mount", and a mount attempt will not occur for filesystems that fsck cannot repair automatically due to significant (!) damages. > > So the consensus seems to be: If you don't want fsck to look > > at a filesystem and maybe stop the boot process, use "noauto". > > If you want it to be mounted later on, do so manually (with > > of of the methods I mentioned, or entirely interactively). > > Yes but I DO want fsck to look at the filesystem, but continue if it fails > (for example, if the device does not exist). Just like I DO want mount to > mount the filesystem, but continue if it can't. That is not the purpose of /etc/fstab, I'd think. As per the manual, there is a certain requirement for filesystems that do not have the "noauto" option specified. > > > > If you don't want fsck to stumble upon a damaged filesystem, > > > > do not include it in /etc/fstab. You can still use a custom > > > > rc.d-style script or an entry in /etc/rc.local if you wish > > > > to "maybe mount" non-vital or optional filesystems later on. > > > > > > Sure, but why would you want to do it that way? The same could be said when > > > the `failok' option was not available to mount. > > > > Right, this approach does not even require "failok". > > > > > > > Consider the situation where a device specified in /etc/fstab is not present > > > during boot, say a USB stick. You've added the `failok' option to its > > > /etc/fstab entry, declaring that if you can't mount the device, ignore the > > > error and continue. fsck will still drop into single user mode. Does that > > > make sense? > > > > Yes, because the entry in /etc/fstab says the device is _required_ > > during the boot process - any non-"noauto" entry is to be checked > > and mounted during system boot. The opposite of "noauto" is "auto", > > and it is the default - meaning, according to the manual: "to be > > automatically mounted at system startup". So any of such entries > > is considered "required for booting". > > That's not completely true, because for NFS mounts we have the `bg' option, > which allows the system to continue booting even if it can't be mounted. > i.e.: not all `noauto' filesystems are _required_. They are required, it's just that their mount process is sent to the background and can happen later on. :-) I think the main difference here is that NFS mounts are not subject to a previous fsck success. The core problem here is that local filesystems will be checked before a mount attempt can happen (and fail). > > I think you're expecting "failok" to do something it is not > > intended to do. > > > > Not really. I want `failok' to do something it doesn't currently. Where > would be the harm in patching fsck to recognise it? No harm, it would surely be possible. It would in fact combine two things (imaginary "nofsck" followed by "failok"). So what you expect "failok" ("two in one") to is: if filesystem does exist: perform fsck if fsck successful: mount filesystem if ! mount successful do nothing <--- SUM (2) else do nothing <--- SUM (1) else do nothing The arrows indicate points where currently the system boot process would be interrupted in case of an error. Of course the order is not intuitive here (error branch should come first). You're proposing an interesting approach: "optional mount". This is something /etc/fstab and fsck + mount currently do not implement. > Given the resistance perhaps I should be pushing for fsck to continue on a > non-existent device (really, how does a missing device fail a consistency > check?). Then mount will presumably fail if the `failok' is not present. If the "noauto" option is not present, and the device for the filesystem does not exist, the boot process will be interrupted - sure, no fsck, no mount. The "failok" option could be used for the purpose mentioned above. As fsck will read /etc/fstab, the "failok" option could be considered, or a new "nofsck" option could be introduced. Currently it is of no importance for fsck, as only the device name, the filesystem type, and the 6th column matter. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this idea. The question is just if "failok" should _imply_ a different fsck and mount behaviour. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 15:18:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C1B2A87E5 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:18:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4966dV3w3Gz4Rbd for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:18:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03LFHxdL054244 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:17:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Subject: Re: More On FreeBSD Network Speed (Was: Changes To nat-ing Behaviour?) From: Tim Daneliuk To: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <8fb087fc-4548-ddbd-ba22-684678c58df8@tundraware.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:17:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8fb087fc-4548-ddbd-ba22-684678c58df8@tundraware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:18:00 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 03LFHxdL054244 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.079, required 1, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, AWL 0.82, BAYES_00 -1.90) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4966dV3w3Gz4Rbd X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tundra@tundraware.com designates 45.55.60.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tundra@tundraware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.66 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.942,0]; IP_SCORE(0.50)[ip: (-1.53), ipnet: 45.55.32.0/19(2.84), asn: 14061(1.24), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.920,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:18:08 -0000 On 4/21/20 8:15 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: > On 4/20/20 3:00 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: >> Linux and FreeBSD have superframe MTUs of 9000 set MacOS MTU is set to 1500. > > > For anyone else that may run into this: For reasons unclear to me, > FreeBSD hated that the Linux box was forcing an MTU of 9000, even though > FreeBSD had the same thing set. The fix was to tell Linux to use > automatic MTU negotiation and all was well. Interestingly, when I did > this, Linux decide 1500 was the right size and performance came back. > > Go figure... This seems to be a Debian thing only. If I set the MTU to 9000 on a CentOS7 box, it works just fine with FBSD. But two different Debians (raspbian and linuxmint) show severely degraded network performance against FBSD (and only FBSD) when their MTUs are set to 9000. At this point, the problem is fixed, but I would just love for an IP internals expert to explain why this might be happening only viz FreeBSD. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 15:31:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57192A8EE4 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:31:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4966x93PkQz4SRV for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:31:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id u189so9161333ilc.4 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:31:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hbv/Ath6O/5/wUqeMnkJnX4yipy4sB6afoX2DT2AJQk=; b=fisDYriRzF7XMD8A4A2oRs8WW28j4/IwFoSwtIefPJp4ZUhUCBvha6PiKjxKzhx+iS 5XqNuGV23Ca0a9ryeMypgqf4gG9QIAbEKx96j3uR101cFlmpzk5M3m7FwjuAyw3JRM5Y mmvtrGzqJ/SSMcAnPvqRzXeMF58S8NAiFr+CPir+xzColBhFZnwyIKwMFKg9TcPXZzuP enXUeeG31L/v3xsZ6mXIr8kLauGmwZyeElI4ZrK6hYGuNRN+EkpHf9q57Ghn8EXZiVnW p2pC6quXzscGwe4x/hDTYDtRdwcRMCTsmrNtPAwtIwiHwPddrkbmU7WBhVlVg2g35GAH iR3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hbv/Ath6O/5/wUqeMnkJnX4yipy4sB6afoX2DT2AJQk=; b=UTrF1/inFnvtQMkjRk4UVOCx1QRPo6yF1NZztL0y+PGNRd9CgeSORQjoBjanALlafE 7srJvRtjBP4uRsG8GqkqRb+r1PSGBzNiuI1NVHrCPWlf5nlfJlcJ+dNyQ0MGY3Uvezhc ntQiblkeyz0L2lAXYkTzcK2+tk+dxZT3J3m+QXdmyYgWViBns+qmKLPzdy0m1ADBEgLI mv7/uofcwejblKw127R9rSiDwrEQoUpqCDDZkI4HwduFav/teVTzorprsX8LTF7m18+X 6ITK8ImBWWWQqnrHJ3LbcBLL3W92QZjDN/9iF/5OBucJwhsEtdGmP09cOUwzlTFR1vCn 3bEw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYDaSdvCvoIuq1ajTcKx+UIj1zoDui+/1YXmM47eZXtrpgp/Y3x EWad714LWBtj80eCXOLXAWa58lJJJg9tqUsOflmBaSWR X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLkEZVzjvG1n17MuA84pf+iuWkbWNv8nj2wTNfLFu4DJe85g/I2MSSVw1qHSQS0lYPU1FlB2pYmGtJNIbQj8EY= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d181:: with SMTP id z1mr20281985ilz.185.1587483099979; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:31:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> <20200421120756.GA98882@neutralgood.org> In-Reply-To: <20200421120756.GA98882@neutralgood.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:31:28 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: "John R. Levine" , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4966x93PkQz4SRV X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=fisDYriR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.60), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:31:42 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:08 AM Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:09:53PM -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 9:59 PM John R. Levine wrote: > > > > > >> In article > > >> yx-xSo0gdsVgAoA7fUn8oRq3173covquHNw61kBJQ@mail.gmail.com> you > write: > > > >>> Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the > > > legality > > > >> of > > > >>> GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project > to > > > give > > > >>> up all claims over how their work is used would likely > > > unconstitutional. > > > >> > > > >> I'd suggest not playing junior lawyer. The GPL is a contract and > > > >> there have been successful cases to enforce it. Nobody has any > > > >> inherent right to use GPL'ed software (or any other software not > > > >> released into the public domain) so if you don't like the terms, > don't > > > >> use it. > > > > There is major disagreement if it is a contract or an license (the > two > > > are > > > > not the same) see the wikipedia article on legal status > > > > > > Whichever it might turn out to be, it's still inane to claim there's > any > > > sort of constitutional issue, and it's still a bad idea to play junior > > > lawyer. > > > > > > > Not true according to the US Copyright office: > > https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html > > When you post links like this do you even _read_ them? > Do you ever read what I *ACTUALLY* said (see below for your complete misreading) > Here is your post, archived: > > https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2020-April/288702.html > > You said: > % Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality > of > % GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to > give > % up all claims over how their work is used would likely unconstitutional. > > To repeat the other poster, "it's still inane to claim there's any sort > of constitutional issue, and it's still a bad idea to play junior lawyer." > > A claim that the GPL could be "unconstitutional" is a claim that there is > a "constitutional issue" with the GPL. > I *NEVER* claimed there where any constitutional issues at all in GPL (except as there are any constitutional issues with *ALL* copyrighted material ever created since the constitution was written). The *ONLY* reason I mentioned the constitution at all is to show why copyright is a federal issue not a state issue. The only time GPL could possibly be a state issue is if it was a contract (something that FSF specifically says it is not, despite one court that is in a state that uses a slightly non-standard commercial code and thus might not apply nationally saying it is). > > Stop before you dig a bigger hole for yourself. > -- > Kevin P. Neal http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ > > "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!" > Keir Finlow Bates, circa 1998 > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 15:51:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B2A2A9864 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:51:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4967NV1QSsz4TpZ for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:51:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [10.150.35.120] (unknown [10.150.35.120]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 860EE4E65C for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:51:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> <20200421120756.GA98882@neutralgood.org> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <21fdc970-5408-51c8-c11e-d2832191e137@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:51:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200421120756.GA98882@neutralgood.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4967NV1QSsz4TpZ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.75 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.983,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.970,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (0.29), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.15), asn: 160(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:51:56 -0000 Kevin (and others), Please, stop feeding the troll. Other mail lists will kick him long time up the thread already. This list is too kind, and is being abused due to that. Stop helping the list being abused. Valeri PS Yes, I top-posted ON PURPOSE. On 4/21/20 7:07 AM, Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 10:09:53PM -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 9:59 PM John R. Levine wrote: >> >>>>> In article >>>> yx-xSo0gdsVgAoA7fUn8oRq3173covquHNw61kBJQ@mail.gmail.com> you write: >>>>>> Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the >>> legality >>>>> of >>>>>> GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to >>> give >>>>>> up all claims over how their work is used would likely >>> unconstitutional. >>>>> >>>>> I'd suggest not playing junior lawyer. The GPL is a contract and >>>>> there have been successful cases to enforce it. Nobody has any >>>>> inherent right to use GPL'ed software (or any other software not >>>>> released into the public domain) so if you don't like the terms, don't >>>>> use it. >>>> There is major disagreement if it is a contract or an license (the two >>> are >>>> not the same) see the wikipedia article on legal status >>> >>> Whichever it might turn out to be, it's still inane to claim there's any >>> sort of constitutional issue, and it's still a bad idea to play junior >>> lawyer. >>> >> >> Not true according to the US Copyright office: >> https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html > > When you post links like this do you even _read_ them? > > Here is your post, archived: > https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2020-April/288702.html > > You said: > % Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality of > % GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to give > % up all claims over how their work is used would likely unconstitutional. > > To repeat the other poster, "it's still inane to claim there's any sort > of constitutional issue, and it's still a bad idea to play junior lawyer." > > A claim that the GPL could be "unconstitutional" is a claim that there is > a "constitutional issue" with the GPL. > > Stop before you dig a bigger hole for yourself. > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 15:58:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B772A9FC4 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:58:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: from mail-01.thismonkey.com (mail-01.thismonkey.com [IPv6:2406:3400:35e:6602::a01:232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "thismonkey.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4967X54Szdz4VrW for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:58:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) X-TM-Via-MX: mail-01.thismonkey.com Received: from utility-01.thismonkey.com (utility-01.thismonkey.com [IPv6:2406:3400:35e:6601:0:0:a01:120]) by mail-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03LFwDtm061526 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:58:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: from utility-01.thismonkey.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by utility-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 03LFwDYb002107; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:58:13 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by utility-01.thismonkey.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03LFwC6f002017; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:58:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:58:12 +1000 From: Scott To: Polytropon , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should fsck honour "failok" in fstab as mount does? Message-ID: <20200421155812.GA54069@thismonkey.com> Mail-Followup-To: Polytropon , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200421071319.GA98163@thismonkey.com> <20200421153144.d45a889b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421135406.GA74559@thismonkey.com> <20200421160939.aa2fbd89.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421143321.GA33168@thismonkey.com> <20200421170313.16d4235e.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200421170313.16d4235e.freebsd@edvax.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.4 (2019-03-13) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail-01.thismonkey.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4967X54Szdz4VrW X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=thismonkey.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com designates 2406:3400:35e:6602::a01:232 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-lists-5@thismonkey.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.51 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[thismonkey.com,none]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:10143, ipnet:2406:3400:300::/40, country:AU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.71)[ip: (-7.59), ipnet: 2406:3400:300::/40(-3.79), asn: 10143(2.84), country: AU(0.01)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:58:33 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 05:03:13PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:33:21 +1000, Scott wrote: > > Yes but I DO want fsck to look at the filesystem, but continue if it > > fails (for example, if the device does not exist). Just like I DO want > > mount to mount the filesystem, but continue if it can't. > > That is not the purpose of /etc/fstab, I'd think. As per the > manual, there is a certain requirement for filesystems that > do not have the "noauto" option specified. Well no, see the next reply. > > > That's not completely true, because for NFS mounts we have the `bg' > > option, which allows the system to continue booting even if it can't be > > mounted. i.e.: not all `noauto' filesystems are _required_. > > They are required, it's just that their mount process is sent > to the background and can happen later on. :-) > > I think the main difference here is that NFS mounts are not > subject to a previous fsck success. The core problem here is > that local filesystems will be checked before a mount attempt > can happen (and fail). NFS mounts ARE NOT required for boot to complete if the `bg' option is set. mount_nfs just forks off and remains so forked unless the mount completes. My point is an absence of `noauto' does not mean a filesystem MUST mount or the system drops into single user. > > > I think you're expecting "failok" to do something it is not > > > intended to do. > > > > > > > Not really. I want `failok' to do something it doesn't currently. Where > > would be the harm in patching fsck to recognise it? > > No harm, it would surely be possible. It would in fact combine > two things (imaginary "nofsck" followed by "failok"). So what > you expect "failok" ("two in one") to is: > > if filesystem does exist: > perform fsck > if fsck successful: > mount filesystem > if ! mount successful > do nothing <--- SUM (2) > else > do nothing <--- SUM (1) > else > do nothing > > The arrows indicate points where currently the system boot > process would be interrupted in case of an error. Of course > the order is not intuitive here (error branch should come > first). Yes. And the `failok' option modifies SUM (2). I'm not sure I would have `nofsck', rather `fsckfailok' such that fsck is run if possible (in preparation for a mount) but booting can continue if not. > > Given the resistance perhaps I should be pushing for fsck to continue on > > a non-existent device (really, how does a missing device fail a > > consistency check?). Then mount will presumably fail if the `failok' is > > not present. > > If the "noauto" option is not present, and the device for > the filesystem does not exist, the boot process will be > interrupted - sure, no fsck, no mount. The "failok" option > could be used for the purpose mentioned above. fsck does seem to have an errorlevel (3) for devices it can't stat, so maybe this condition could be pushed to /etc/rc.d/fsck. > As fsck will read /etc/fstab, the "failok" option could be > considered, or a new "nofsck" option could be introduced. > Currently it is of no importance for fsck, as only the > device name, the filesystem type, and the 6th column matter. That's not entirely accurate: fsck also checks fs_mntops: if (!strncmp(&fs->fs_mntops[i], "noauto", 6)) > Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this idea. The question > is just if "failok" should _imply_ a different fsck and > mount behaviour. Agreed. The terminology should be either `failok' for all failures regardless of the program (fstab (5) does mention it is used by both fsck and mount), or split into `mountfailok` and `fsckfailok`. Scott From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 16:08:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148232AA419 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:08:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4967lR1TkYz4WNb for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:08:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id u11so15600293iow.4 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:08:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9zGSAGb3dlOwQxWAuB938NEmf2HpYGg2UWYMFo9aJDQ=; b=Xw9GCcYd/y0NpkFwJEbBW3JmomljoeYFqu7i28EVtVkwyamWNZnE0q6CAzhjKO501W eTfdduYWKLbG95T5oKI7YJu2tBTYHPa1WmiMGgj1GPRPd5RyK2C8l5pN6F1LKwv720Pc 6C7yKZB15ewO5zAkg/b3W2OQ/Mk8GHXQ/X4tf8ubJgz5rFruGgL01YC1XXhODdx7ypVo ixBaFCRTDnqHtLqb8LWya+iVr+8/2bIYaiYE0Nj90c2fmASwCyPlNjwLP9L6w6Mr1xCR hLxRxhXawOJonmI5xF+UuO3u9NcsXuWAUe8FYDC30oecXkjaLGZrl95YjLsira7wCyEk WhRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9zGSAGb3dlOwQxWAuB938NEmf2HpYGg2UWYMFo9aJDQ=; b=RIWcAEcVApwwZeS6h+P1K7DhZA4lxmjcpPQRhT259euhyxCLK3WKIUS50iHQcoS3Xt cj4OjQsMG2+e2AFiLMPsZSUVPU/ulzCdOrTYuMPJFw4Dz0ahEkC4saBx2pzyJ2eHU+VO jbyhGKK+Vxka9XGK1IV+iPFejLEh/QKZhOTN+INAv4flsVOVo/5B5uihHsRqJctjE3Da BJ1EuAh3LkhUMGGiIGeoL6aIggo5A77+VebNSVikrS96ntB1WRGpJXOro+W1BvoLQjuP Fds3ZfI0Kt/u0WxDxwhzpzFB1+FGsa9JQ0D1LRjVC5wHZPaX4DRETnBjrBo4oE3YBz4v m40g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaoY6Z1Cf9zKEYpHopvgFhgh4nxhi9AsvjmS0FZdLYvblIhCw0C DVn51FZCNuBvZji0EqshEv7FR2LuRkEKP1sOnxU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKI8qq+bO5E6gpuqdtnn3fA/zq4ryTNAriiyUXNU5QOqURhHhhzs6stat/Idi5hVShyqLy7foc8aR/n6WYyJls= X-Received: by 2002:a02:9a0d:: with SMTP id b13mr21046466jal.60.1587485298022; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:08:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> <20200421120756.GA98882@neutralgood.org> <21fdc970-5408-51c8-c11e-d2832191e137@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <21fdc970-5408-51c8-c11e-d2832191e137@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:08:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4967lR1TkYz4WNb X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Xw9GCcYd; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-5.32), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[9.2.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:08:20 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:52 AM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > Kevin (and others), > > Please, stop feeding the troll. > > Other mail lists will kick him long time up the thread already. This > list is too kind, and is being abused due to that. Stop helping the list > being abused. > Sorry to ask a very naive question but since all I am doing is defending FreeBSD's choice of licenses and explaining (IMO) why it is right make me a troll? If this was a Linux mailing list then maybe it would be a troll but this the first time I have heard of someone defending the subject matter of a mailing list being called a "troll". -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 16:24:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519D02AABE6 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:24:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49686V0VN8z4XW7 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:24:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.27.149]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MTOZQ-1jo7P72Urk-00Tm6I; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:24:29 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:24:26 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Scott Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Should fsck honour "failok" in fstab as mount does? Message-Id: <20200421182426.45473fbd.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200421155812.GA54069@thismonkey.com> References: <20200421071319.GA98163@thismonkey.com> <20200421153144.d45a889b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421135406.GA74559@thismonkey.com> <20200421160939.aa2fbd89.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421143321.GA33168@thismonkey.com> <20200421170313.16d4235e.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421155812.GA54069@thismonkey.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vFCRA/pf7xQRjTEPlupWptQwSGszpzwgntZy4V985G0YZvLp2G7 FpAZmjS8KBgIsoU6gLQ8fmVgLgJaDqV0VjT+nH+w+3tXYNYAIMTR2pMZ2rUlAv8hDhIA5EI 1py1m220oFcaVf+cZ9QghUNkYBH+/4fNKdGslw4U5R5CXy83p2Uk885ZWE+u6HWDl3lvtso /edQkLL7PpXrOWa7xn1Dg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:kalm1MmFA+I=:bDNbHt5Wpz2SQGuuc+/cdR v4OkWFp0tok+HDwOwy9SnOHpt4LDTIqAO7rPRvlqGgtmT2Up/gXzEa4XvF/dgz7Ibk9kpnxRx uoXycEGIuzBgfuKhGcVr5te1ZbsIIlySo2RZoPmv+OdejcuyGAHTIj6cEZUJsQqbR1k+XpXg6 MAeWZ/BqZ6+iwtxzhRkMsTIyJ30qtKi/cGqmeeJYIeG3Cmj+nRbYB1sQfOm6lilNTVBXDnswc X/XxqMnEF+arF4+O6Tau1Ejg12L3p7ooP6GHDGBF6aSNLGMqOrJ233FDik5nhMg5B2pBVAMnV VQSdH6fV+iRDUbbnFHv1nAVU+NevzYutQ1OxlQWb/Lp2FAcAovpAYPoLWhUOg7STmlwuQ4qFk Xlp6lfNV6limMZ/eKjfjRnfLwSwMZ2RYiKBXBQsBThZZUJT7epYzH1EPklZYQqkExzexfsQHE GuD+KhxFfiPyTuwM2Q6VUlq5hTFEg3goIjHrhiUQEUBqACSOUSE4jM5vMLoyTI3LFPwP8nj2N U1NCBZvrUH/nT8ZuJhzD7C+4Qjocvh3CS2tyJt/vY7FO17uKjJQv+dPnLZNWolamfifdTvt4/ HDeCbRQoEPNeWLtmevmU4QsmPkulCGD79GU519G4/kEy4ufzLaH4JQp+D+6VYHJ5jcj2li2ZE C4P2/EuYlozAT2Y2MKB+wKAyAMSc8OVuhMokuYGEWjcoi880DICEZO/AwWASA3cqQCGH/OTi7 4tTCooPGx8ZNpAlQSpd6tk//FFgASB6fQwg5xSjtJui00vBf+gjL1hgxQBxRnDOfn2oH/ypLr uGLDJ7uoKz1qAKAhdNpnbujdxmHuCNfWYwB2y0Lh6fd69lS7RxJlJy8CUraTl8beRcGFwR4 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49686V0VN8z4XW7 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.51 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[149.27.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.88)[0.875,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.23)[ip: (0.30), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(2.08), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:24:51 -0000 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:58:12 +1000, Scott wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 05:03:13PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:33:21 +1000, Scott wrote: > > > > Yes but I DO want fsck to look at the filesystem, but continue if it > > > fails (for example, if the device does not exist). Just like I DO want > > > mount to mount the filesystem, but continue if it can't. > > > > That is not the purpose of /etc/fstab, I'd think. As per the > > manual, there is a certain requirement for filesystems that > > do not have the "noauto" option specified. > > Well no, see the next reply. > > > > > > That's not completely true, because for NFS mounts we have the `bg' > > > option, which allows the system to continue booting even if it can't be > > > mounted. i.e.: not all `noauto' filesystems are _required_. > > > > They are required, it's just that their mount process is sent > > to the background and can happen later on. :-) > > > > I think the main difference here is that NFS mounts are not > > subject to a previous fsck success. The core problem here is > > that local filesystems will be checked before a mount attempt > > can happen (and fail). > > NFS mounts ARE NOT required for boot to complete if the `bg' option is set. > mount_nfs just forks off and remains so forked unless the mount completes. > My point is an absence of `noauto' does not mean a filesystem MUST mount or > the system drops into single user. Erm, I think the key here is that, as I said, NFS filesystems won't be checked with fsck, and "bg" will retult the boot process to continue, no matter if the NFS filesystem can be mounted at this point (or later on). So yes, for NFS filesystems the absence of "noauto", especially in presence of "bg", will not cause a boot process interruption, but in my opinion, due to the "no fsck needed" reason. > > > > I think you're expecting "failok" to do something it is not > > > > intended to do. > > > > > > > > > > Not really. I want `failok' to do something it doesn't currently. Where > > > would be the harm in patching fsck to recognise it? > > > > No harm, it would surely be possible. It would in fact combine > > two things (imaginary "nofsck" followed by "failok"). So what > > you expect "failok" ("two in one") to is: > > > > if filesystem does exist: > > perform fsck > > if fsck successful: > > mount filesystem > > if ! mount successful > > do nothing <--- SUM (2) > > else > > do nothing <--- SUM (1) > > else > > do nothing > > > > The arrows indicate points where currently the system boot > > process would be interrupted in case of an error. Of course > > the order is not intuitive here (error branch should come > > first). > > Yes. And the `failok' option modifies SUM (2). I'm not sure I would have > `nofsck', rather `fsckfailok' such that fsck is run if possible (in > preparation for a mount) but booting can continue if not. The regular way of running fsck here is the "preen mode", which performs a check for "was dismounted properly", and can repair minor defects right away. Only if this process exits != 0, the reasoning is: There is something wrong, maybe a major filesystem defect, a defective disk, or something else; let the human decide. :-) > > > Given the resistance perhaps I should be pushing for fsck to continue on > > > a non-existent device (really, how does a missing device fail a > > > consistency check?). Then mount will presumably fail if the `failok' is > > > not present. > > > > If the "noauto" option is not present, and the device for > > the filesystem does not exist, the boot process will be > > interrupted - sure, no fsck, no mount. The "failok" option > > could be used for the purpose mentioned above. > > fsck does seem to have an errorlevel (3) for devices it can't stat, so maybe > this condition could be pushed to /etc/rc.d/fsck. In the fsck source, there are deveral exit codes, such as return to single user mode, cannot read superblock, and such; only the exit code == 0 will will state that the filesystem is clean and doesn't need any further attention. With /etc/rc.d/fsck getting a new condition to decide on, it could act upon the already existing error codes. > > As fsck will read /etc/fstab, the "failok" option could be > > considered, or a new "nofsck" option could be introduced. > > Currently it is of no importance for fsck, as only the > > device name, the filesystem type, and the 6th column matter. > > That's not entirely accurate: fsck also checks fs_mntops: > > if (!strncmp(&fs->fs_mntops[i], "noauto", 6)) I didn't check the source for fsck, just the manual for fstab. But you're entirely right here. :-) > > Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this idea. The question > > is just if "failok" should _imply_ a different fsck and > > mount behaviour. > > Agreed. The terminology should be either `failok' for all failures > regardless of the program (fstab (5) does mention it is used by both fsck and > mount), or split into `mountfailok` and `fsckfailok`. Right. The problem with changing a keyword's meaning could lead to confusion for admins who _expect_ a certain behaviour. So maybe new optional keywords would be the better way to go. So existing configurations just won't notice, and new settings can be added if desired. Another possibility would be a keyword named "optional", so when the filesystem exists && is clean && can be mounted, it will be accessible; if not, errors at any stage will not interrupt the mount process. It would probably be a good idea to have /etc/rc.d/fsck output a warning to the system log file in such a case, so the admin _can_ perform checks and repair if it should be needed. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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[209.85.210.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i20sm869446ots.29.2020.04.21.09.52.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f44.google.com with SMTP id e20so1143679otk.12; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:52:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7ca:: with SMTP id 68mr14621690oto.267.1587487923762; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:52:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:51:32 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4968jy4rJ1z4YvR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=MIoYv1W/; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::232) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.94)[ip: (-8.92), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:52:08 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 10:34 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Time to move from X11 to Wayland :-) > Anyone using Wayland with success already? > I would like to use Enlightenment (0.23.1) + Wayland. I have some positive feedback and support offer from Enlightenment / EFL team in porting EFL+E components to FreeBSD in general and also to run on Wayland :-) https://phab.enlightenment.org/T8659 @devilhorns (Christopher Michael) writes: "I'm glad to see people are porting to *bsd. With regard to eeze using udev (and thus not portable), if someone would like to submit patches to make eeze use whatever *bsd uses for devices, then that would be great !! In all honesty, the *bsd port should not really use deprecated ecore_wl, ecore_drm libraries. Those are terribly old, have a few flaws, are unmaintained, and have since been replaced w/ ecore_wl2 & ecore_drm2. Also, if someone would like to provide patches for ecore_wl2 to support *bsd, please don't hesitate to submit them." Anyone interested please feel free to join the effort :-) Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 17:11:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C040A2B0AD0 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:11:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49698d6rrYz3C1c for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:11:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1587489104; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=rKrDxIo86aJhJH5fIpnoF2JK9Hg=; b=sgMWsB4buhhd4Gtaqjw+NAv6W4JcOAI4VF13FioLhjMHj0sghfGCxllFUZxuyLSx VY8iBzyZP2zS39xHhwZRq07jBngwS7lokGZXZ4qAkGSQydodGDc1sTpmnvb2RYKj NAyDtftM3R00wdSkKoyEZ+9iSi0DEDMnA24anqmFLU0XkcbyAFzxrXlUCp9Mybql UybqcX9xRgo2/qskJeetLKF43ntK/0lAftZcw4EIZOe0lA0lxTDlSAizL8KWNuWU F0sVg2lo7x6/Ungs2pPKqp+/R7yt8lPAkB7kcwJPr4gNPsPqevLwkBEXMBiWPM/x oRn5z/o7Ff5lk7bSrzjhqw==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=T+HysMCQ c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=cl8xLZFz6L8A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=Mc9tXLfo4tUEvVhejo8A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:42417] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id F9/30-63700-0592F9E5; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:11:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24223.10575.934921.290289@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:11:43 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD , "\@lbutlr" Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200421153013.640ea96596f03973cb7cbc16@sohara.org> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421153013.640ea96596f03973cb7cbc16@sohara.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49698d6rrYz3C1c X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=sgMWsB4b; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.60 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.50)[ip: (-8.97), ipnet: 69.168.97.0/24(0.75), asn: 36271(0.76), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[78.97.168.69.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[78.97.168.69.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:11:46 -0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > > there will probably be no major problem in transition. > > Being able to utilize 3D support and all the driver confusion > > is definitely a point to work on. > > The only thing is that Wayland uses the same troublesome DRI/DRM > infrastructure as X11. Not my speciality: is there a viable alternative? Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 17:30:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21C02B17B6 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:30:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4969Ys5nGFz3DZJ for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:30:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1587490208; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=1atw9Di6aD86sNlHadSF7LKfG0A=; b=XB+6iisFYGEF35MguY6Z35iUhy+8cl4k6qSHQ0PKC+eYLjVH3ChFNhsZJZ6K9aYk QRqybziEoFtEqkzWElT/Z47l5KrgBlsTW0bl6B1+F39eaYzsDQqH2RgXQzkT7Vl5 LV2rUMc3imvUw5OCoMTYIkgYeUn1AdKn6LrzFGEZHDrSipgJsHgl6nAqf6KOrQLb 6Pz4Gw45YyXN0AKFBBMfkwB218qw8cUi/7cwB/3S3TxMqc6otEkT1OK9RLygM9hZ 6X34lnsopSBeeppt36eq6Bk7fzJZU8CDJrzo6gFNZLEsSd0Q+KivABgHUNBu/jHL fQZPIgjm+Z6fCbRyBeGQxQ==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Z5uS40ZA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=cl8xLZFz6L8A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=tLKPmnsIuPsP_IQPIccA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:51510] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id E6/CE-10869-0AD2F9E5; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:30:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 13:30:07 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: Polytropon Cc: "\@lbutlr" , FreeBSD Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4969Ys5nGFz3DZJ X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=XB+6iisF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.51)[ip: (-8.98), ipnet: 69.168.97.0/24(0.74), asn: 36271(0.75), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[78.97.168.69.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[78.97.168.69.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:30:10 -0000 Polytropon writes: > On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > > On 20 Apr 2020, at 02:24, Ihor Antonov wrote: > > > But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X11 > > > > Perhaps. A tiny percentage. The rest will continue as they are now, > > avoiding X11 at all costs because it is insecure bloat that > > interferes with the desired operation of the machine. > > Depends. If Wayland can offer all features that X11 offers at > the moment, there will probably be no major problem in transition. Speaking only for myself (though I think there are a _lot_ of folks who would agree): I have no particular loyalty to X. If there's an alternative that's faster/more secure/easier to {install, maintain, upgrade}/[other unspecified benefits] ... what the are we waiting for? Can I be a lab rat? _If_. What I _think_ I'm hearing is "Wayland is a better solution that isn't ready yet. Not fully integrated with FreeBSD; not even ready in the (current) Platonic ideal." Am I wrong? Also: if I understand the conversation, Wayland works OK when client and server are the same machine, but not over a network? Opportunistically, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 17:43:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B876C2B22E0 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic301-32.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-32.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4969rp51v7z3GP8 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: r8XASroVM1kqvgCpi..ZiPLN7k.ZTokbpIuUD95whmHFdQdp5qV.it1YJ_dHMwf 3Jt3Kpe_jwCyMBReA990cfCqDg5mDwKwuFvmc_cInt_SeWqvXkKhBIO1m1dIBxuNSNAEHMjLb1IO a_ZLyiTbKFha4dly9DWGoPQLbqOLsGXhXNAekiFix11HssWsdirUFzlt7G5QBPZdCu01WOp5UfM_ kCJLTwgXCRtx7KhjBicT9WYZyZHYkG9A3gz4RVrp_GeuOJXenpywrc1YsvKEnAjXx4cV8HmGXWXh k6MIJzlX3KUyVXMwUBF1eyFeObM.rCg.CH4pUeQu6nozH89wYg.o.4MMoVatc0aP18CeqrgFjXvC TwjCaPNRC1Rpw0imtHkSEX1sX9YixT1QQItKIMq4YQvXhQvw1It_bkWgzRfOcq7lourfU7C7g6hR gw8TpZMdu1JY.JWjPfQhoQ2ZWUAFRwDQ454KGyHEhebZljReN6ho7AcTb6MLeiFn02kfL0V5WgK4 muN7RCyz5H61UZC3tllFjCWggNpAMnpT8ogk9pePWtR1uuSN0I20uivsy0nWyG5XKpA81Up6nbYc sK9PTp4SWBLlZnYX0VtsL4WONbNTJEv82NPDNau4SoFCfFUO1ZfnrHlKtMmb0xTBoAz0INpQbOSg NFKed0vb19RXWLzXKDQkebbZktI5PT7X5taYtczxB3Yd9v1hoBUT.t3USRt4QSiT9TF5lP..4DVE MwE0OTwFrrQRexw_VuO.x8pc5bG6DA4Up.qV0dPCvX54ejD.t7wKFVg.qD4oUC.3tNPkDnZHkaJJ 8Wg_dIdNn4pnbkkrpPPNtU8eTpXAM8tPZCxM7JvgE0JDBrgsE8kIl6ntmj623zY.U.0MZXpb6z1s G1ZAEO4oaXv6kE6Tq5ZruQ8ZOA4n803Z9Y8dWfBJ_E48fBM37X6IZhe_KeTWA0yjtKD72w8sbj4S CiXiIkAsdSG2kesQuHkUxLm5i59tbWEnvdy.lkhDebNHJ.i5G1jr7mCb1ouBbl_N27Xjb9unsClA MiqvXrAp9VC5xOzsEgaqeo7eiSNyh_x4jPzO0o92cPO_kaHol7xVXLFrTa2CZi76BPnbZzw1eetB fqSMc2g_jKRNhvu3iJCJP1IFbauCsnE5bZxjhXZVqwAsqNZcdMm02ZzScciEHepOpFnc0BgUxF5o aT1fvkAXBHqEuAZJC5AEuLjh47SVbbudF0MZ93bSXHDsiC7syFt_kRVYO8hSm_x4rYaOhcy9zdUL JZsuMLWUAFYC0tESlx_4Q.CR1aL2zzlghVxH2xWCJnb7z8Fnqp9LldeM4kxmfCZxaY2.ZX4jfmh5 CwIhBm7_Bz.XT7_H_RwRQQY2wvJxO30cJpCVxyc55Dj6_EY3CDzM_4RU- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:05 +0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:01 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Polytropon , Robert Huff Cc: FreeBSD , "@lbutlr" Message-ID: <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15739 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:56.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/56.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4969rp51v7z3GP8 X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.13 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.27)[-0.269,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[201.184.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.14)[0.142,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.05), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.15), asn: 36646(0.92), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[201.184.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:07 -0000 :D=C2=A0 I love it when I see reactions to problems like this on FreeBSD..= .. :D Personally, I see a need for an alternative weighing though.=C2=A0 There ar= e a HUGE amount of apps that make use of X.=C2=A0 Here's my thought:=C2=A0 = Can Xorg learn from Wayland?=C2=A0 Could they, as a stop gap measure, imple= ment a compositor similar to Wayland's method?=C2=A0 Enhance communications= via a default TLS methodology that can be imbedded in all X communications= ? Don't get me wrong, I believe X is archaic and has been patched constantly = to 'enhance' functionality or close security issues and it should be replac= ed. However, all functionality needs to stay intact and I would think that ther= e could be some type of shim that allows existing programs to be compiled a= s they always have for X and it just translates to Wayland's APIs.=C2=A0 If= Wayland can offset the speed loss of the shim with its speed enhancements,= it should be invisible to the user. Am I making sense?=C2=A0 ( I believe this is what I'm seeing below ) Paul On Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 1:30:23 PM EDT, Robert Huff wrote: =20 =20 =20 Polytropon writes: >=C2=A0 On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: >=C2=A0 > On 20 Apr 2020, at 02:24, Ihor Antonov wro= te: >=C2=A0 > > But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X1= 1 >=C2=A0 >=20 >=C2=A0 > Perhaps. A tiny percentage. The rest will continue as they are no= w, >=C2=A0 > avoiding X11 at all costs because it is insecure bloat that >=C2=A0 > interferes with the desired operation of the machine. >=C2=A0=20 >=C2=A0 Depends. If Wayland can offer all features that X11 offers at >=C2=A0 the moment, there will probably be no major problem in transition. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Speaking only for myself (though I think there are a _lo= t_ of folks who would agree): I have no particular loyalty to X.=C2=A0 If there's an alternative that's faster/more secure/easier to {install, maintain, upgrade}/[other unspecified benefits] ... what the are we waiting for?=C2=A0 Can I be a lab rat? =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _If_. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What I _think_ I'm hearing is "Wayland is a better solut= ion that isn't ready yet.=C2=A0 Not fully integrated with FreeBSD; not even ready in the (current) Platonic ideal." =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Am I wrong? =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also: if I understand the conversation, Wayland works OK= when client and server are the same machine, but not over a network? =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Opportunistically, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Robert Huff =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =20 _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 17:59:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84EB62B2BC1 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:59:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (dontpanic.foucry.net [80.67.176.134]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496BCN3zHqz3HWQ for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:59:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.foucry.net (mithril.foucry.net [127.0.0.1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C1118D58 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:59:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:59:10 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: About wayland Message-ID: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496BCN3zHqz3HWQ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=foucry.net (policy=none) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.57 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[foucry.net : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[mithril.localdomain]; HFILTER_HELO_NORES_A_OR_MX(0.30)[mithril.localdomain]; IP_SCORE(-0.97)[ipnet: 80.67.160.0/19(-2.70), asn: 20766(-2.13), country: FR(0.00)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20766, ipnet:80.67.160.0/19, country:FR]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:59:13 -0000 Hello dear all, Please excuse my ignorancebut could some body make a post about waylan. There's a new thread about wayland, you talk of it like it's "your old friend since elementary school » but it's not my case. As I understood it's and "evolution", another way to make graphical disply, the primary one is X11. Could you take a little bit of your time to explain what's different, new,, the avantages, the disavantages, etc… But please stay at a high level :-) Thank you very much in advance for that. As usual, take care . -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 18:13:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9DD2B388A for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:13:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496BWH6j3Bz3Jjm for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:12:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.27.149]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MAwoL-1jXFqv1GnJ-00BMZT; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:12:44 +0200 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:12:39 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Paul Pathiakis Cc: Robert Huff , FreeBSD , "@lbutlr" Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200421201239.13ba81cb.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Wfhs4fP9J0fCh7v8KRHcWMIitO/K1e2uNC+OSDr3qX9ZnRk9Xbz OM13pipZfVM0Nj4ep91Ej2uQ2nQOt4eZwvStSOUnuJVwcrjazpscZXm9FlNryD4q7MSwzwN milCqvAFqoBzawqvCOmKOiwrX02aZVWkIcJJhBPO+Tr9kXgPwAysutI8jwg+2YpzA6Ww6xl 9tOcMx2X8hROiz23llf5w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:JKhOXID6kIk=:ykqjoJ6/qa4djAADSy8hxd QODkZh+oacyfPJ62QrHcqj9HA7VzL/mEmGH3b/G8F274+dc/Unj38L9S38BeI3thZm2ItqfFd ELlWIis318i3aoR5Q61E+tRZKH4sPkq+AIIjb2pGnmXB+ky7o4KPD62eMGXA8KrsnvhUN9Iat e6oB/n5Z8rMeCNgj95emxt3ctc9bKrKE5DMK2ET+ABEwLqjgFiPkd30Jx5UoNHp325+5FGS9V LE45ksp61DS4UJdiB4p/zZCryA+bMD3yslP5RmjEWx8pUezrsL7o0/gAq/C+IaastRv0tDG85 lMYP6yvVKK8LpuL6yJMxwOWeE7kxF1ifK9V7rJ/U4Olyjk3DRJzT2yc+1IO7BeyhdlukhrsS9 w5WyesJ8EwxjAvwrlC9yhVNL6gPDea0olM5J1O998eqlc4LMCx7N9W1EyEyUBYimIzVk07xsC sT9QFcY4l+x3i0XXfVSdFVepDIJLtAv7um7+WSw+8afsW4VqUF+fMCK4yYOndQwGUt+Rkoy+A +IJU70jL04ZjMrysC4ICxOMzEe92FuQGeMMbaAv8kQYtfx1ucu8mOohWLzf22X2WS5oKWio2Q G5bjgV8terhaoTPqfs/cdBlNFakBL40Bs6y9PIuRl1KPeeOgmDckFkX7YWJxPjTytk9YamSv1 Yp4wWwJgcllmjioh12y1H+OnEhQkQQByGUrTPdUY16+OjCDI0twc+yQFtUBMfaxxTI9EHnV8o VLXf02TOBk0p2x66g/NAKvNihRfjlufxceq0oZuyIsa6E5g/ONFkhmggDbJAU1jAHjqmGB+8B s1JGt3jtAkStZt1rCGcrKalNSvfFPZXKldBp1GFCm3ezVKVlb+iMMhrdBSD3LuJtSSD22df X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496BWH6j3Bz3Jjm X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.63 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[149.27.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.82)[0.819,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.999,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[131.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.41)[ip: (1.21), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(2.08), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:13:01 -0000 On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:01 +0000 (UTC), Paul Pathiakis wrote: > :D=A0 I love it when I see reactions to problems like this on FreeBSD...= . :D Let's just imagine Wayland on FreeBSD + Enlightenment to become a FreeBSD-native (!) desktop environment with GUI integreation for OS configuration and control... :-) Yes, I know, this can (partially) be done with Xfce, Gnome, KDE, Lxde, but more or less, that is fighting Linuxisms and still being stuck with stuff that has been abandoned in Linux world many years ago (think about HAL and DBus). The degree of incompatibility could be increasing if the modern development of desktop environments will concentrate on Linux as the target, and on FreeBSD, you can only get 3/4 of what's technically possible. > Personally, I see a need for an alternative weighing though.=A0 > There are a HUGE amount of apps that make use of X. And if it's not a desktop enviroment being incompatible, it might be one of the targeted applications that relies on an infrastructure that only Linux can provide. > Don't get me wrong, I believe X is archaic and has been patched > constantly to 'enhance' functionality or close security issues > and it should be replaced. Just think about the problematic situation of drivers. If you have been using X before it became X.org, i. e., when it was called XFree86, you probably know that in order to get an ATI graphics card with full 3D support all you needed to install was the ati driver package. Now think about all the moving parts involved on many fronts: OS, X.org, additional driver... > However, all functionality needs to stay intact and I > would think that there could be some type of shim that > allows existing programs to be compiled as they always > have for X and it just translates to Wayland's APIs.=A0 Something similar is possible (or at least has been possible) on Mac OS X where you could run regular X programs if you had X installed (along the graphics system that comes with Mac OS X). --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 18:23:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2B32B3FF3 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:23:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at50-2.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at50-2.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496Bly6W0rz3KSl for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:23:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at50.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQxTL-000APr-Kz for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:18:15 +0200 Received: from t61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id VWJF2200i4YLlkt0BWJFLc; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:18:15 +0200 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=OA2lqS22AAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=wmWLsycGanVPlof76PMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=047cQLXTEfCjWPUe_kQW:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:19:44 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202004212019.44588.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496Bly6W0rz3KSl X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.137 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.994,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 62.179.0.0/17(0.93), asn: 6830(3.69), country: AT(-0.10)]; FORGED_MUA_KMAIL_MSGID(3.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[137.121.179.62.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:23:59 -0000 Anno domini 17:43:01 Tue, 21 Apr 2020 +0000 (UTC) Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questions scripsit: > :D=C2=A0 I love it when I see reactions to problems like this on FreeBSD= =2E... :D > Personally, I see a need for an alternative weighing though.=C2=A0 There = are a HUGE amount of apps that make use of X.=C2=A0 Here's my thought:=C2= =A0 Can Xorg learn from Wayland?=C2=A0 Could they, as a stop gap measure, i= mplement a compositor similar to Wayland's method?=C2=A0 Enhance communicat= ions via a default TLS methodology that can be imbedded in all X communicat= ions? > Don't get me wrong, I believe X is archaic and has been patched constantl= y to 'enhance' functionality or close security issues and it should be repl= aced. > However, all functionality needs to stay intact and I would think that th= ere could be some type of shim that allows existing programs to be compiled= as they always have for X and it just translates to Wayland's APIs.=C2=A0 = If Wayland can offset the speed loss of the shim with its speed enhancement= s, it should be invisible to the user. If I recall correctly, the Xorg of OpenBSD has all security problems of ori= ginal Xorg patched, and that for quite some time. Only nobody seams to be i= nterested. Nik >=20 > Am I making sense?=C2=A0 ( I believe this is what I'm seeing below ) >=20 > Paul >=20 > On Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 1:30:23 PM EDT, Robert Huff wrote: =20 > =20 > =20 > Polytropon writes: >=20 > >=C2=A0 On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > >=C2=A0 > On 20 Apr 2020, at 02:24, Ihor Antonov w= rote: > >=C2=A0 > > But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting = X11 > >=C2=A0 >=20 > >=C2=A0 > Perhaps. A tiny percentage. The rest will continue as they are = now, > >=C2=A0 > avoiding X11 at all costs because it is insecure bloat that > >=C2=A0 > interferes with the desired operation of the machine. > >=C2=A0=20 > >=C2=A0 Depends. If Wayland can offer all features that X11 offers at > >=C2=A0 the moment, there will probably be no major problem in transition. >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Speaking only for myself (though I think there are a _= lot_ of > folks who would agree): I have no particular loyalty to X.=C2=A0 If there= 's > an alternative that's faster/more secure/easier to {install, maintain, > upgrade}/[other unspecified benefits] ... what the are we > waiting for?=C2=A0 Can I be a lab rat? > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _If_. > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What I _think_ I'm hearing is "Wayland is a better sol= ution that > isn't ready yet.=C2=A0 Not fully integrated with FreeBSD; not even ready = in > the (current) Platonic ideal." > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Am I wrong? > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also: if I understand the conversation, Wayland works = OK when > client and server are the same machine, but not over a network? >=20 >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Opportunisticall= y, >=20 >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Robert Huff > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" > =20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" >=20 =2D-=20 Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing w= ith the NSA, CIA ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 18:29:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAA52B413F for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:29:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic306-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic306-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.189.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496Btd3ptzz3Kc3 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:29:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: ukbd3sMVM1kN0IkzY7YWCCCP.rSYvKOjx13aeKay0.35FIF4AJms6an79SXT7fc uVEIgTQjECJgCdgb3.3WSG952TRltYYuJZ99TpQ6_WOhEerOBqdfi3ciW7N1HlxthyrKs5Dpqam1 pUM.2FI.xVsvL7GEk0l5YZHrAfTuSGtVfHCiX4e79p3DRb90IxGObbUa1kiM2bGUcYITCoewxkQT hy.GVQTke.JFSBGBKY36m8cusJ247cCI99TsgAITOwr4rg1YDizQLZ12lMeAgnmGVBQCOvs4592d gOl2pTDIlCm9_uj3RnEqQLXB8D6GCC5.cEJwi_eQew9TEuKOIJoubc6pUP5weJIoBZHfIp66VklQ TN2mnXnKxW9iucCrdRq4baVvVuDdeKYQYzzVDjDcPC_RcfVu0U9nN8NCRhWv0t_jbi1jibsvylos CJBh3OXd2F9vOxFhiBXrYG967qLEwpuiPVjz6ujaJ6Ulu7gHdlC6cP3TDeRZ.IpmZQwPbwGMpshr INZPpM_UV5nH4nBP2tIKsa1UE1OtTEyzsHspRJbrcf34qp7hrfwIsjcHMUloOQlKj_RWHcfsotPb ZDlqcA4ntEJi8phEoJUzF_xydWbIIdDpEJ0.4XGvFPpI_Tw6BRie9.pxDMdiGLD_SYQgYGjtYl56 7l_W5NJBqgSu3mlxinGebIguNmJhXeD3MO.Pa8E1iMlhBVYpqSM3IMLphH5KMO1f3XKV.ECHFx9T rwpZ6GtCXueGoCSIUEjUd8gtr8GSdsJVQyfy0Al4WeCK39xgP21EWxoFoH3NbOn9umpbqTuh.Kpd ULMBuYywLZjDQAIBdWXQ9M06WNKH48SfZRYtIGplCEnLkww7feTdNheFIiNIZar9PM0Yn_l1VTMc 7lLREJMAxcyDFmz0uF49JcgnCabpuLonUvj3TicHH_uwXQ7S_Lt8gMUrv31zQW27X7FRI4RpmM7x 31nftD1fkoDywQgUtOzdtWn1pPetIf_qAFQ2KsFWroFYMSy4MRqUriKPuEjQLm4zV9iwT6U8Gl76 K3tcGiEzyicryiPQ0vGIIFZ3aGmXGyBZnwsPI3qq1qf7ZhAqeLzXjMb2jx0M2GblAw8g.pqzg_Rr td1FMPnURIteKV19kq6BKs2Pu3hmXgeS_BGh6jnlEt.C6X4_O01UDBkBs9KWFUeg316K2ps4QdL_ mue5Mom.WfnOVX7E1gY5x04ksUtguuy_4OTtPO.ZLW_7_G1qolLsSLzlERWx6z.tRRULUwurq8Db utVdY1Lp33C5dMxgPE7ZnL56Djf7IwhpWuvKugO8HNxP1DQs1MRbR.T2Z54tn9dfM53S2ufr9VRM yt88xD5MvioIr6QAUWbk3TShU6zz38T6KzLzKizD0HplO2FU2cC8- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:29:43 +0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:29:42 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jacques Foucry Message-ID: <1314106099.453976.1587493782922@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> References: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> Subject: Re: About wayland MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15739 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:56.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/56.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496Btd3ptzz3Kc3 X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.77 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.50)[-0.496,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.27)[-0.274,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[83.189.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.00), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.15), asn: 36646(0.92), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[83.189.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:29:46 -0000 Hi, Just to drop this note....=20 Google on "Wayland display protocol" Paul On Tuesday, April 21, 2020, 1:59:22 PM EDT, Jacques Foucry wrote: =20 =20 Hello dear all, Please excuse my ignorancebut could some body make a post about waylan. There's a new thread about wayland, you talk of it like it's "your old frie= nd since elementary school =C2=BB but it's not my case. As I understood it's and "evolution", another way to make graphical disply, the primary one is X11. Could you take a little bit of your time to explain what's different, new,, the avantages, the disavantages, etc=E2=80=A6 But please stay at a high level :-) Thank you very much in advance for that. As usual, take care . --=20 Jacques Foucry _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 18:48:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF4F2B4D00 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:48:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oo1-xc33.google.com (mail-oo1-xc33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496CHz0L2xz3Lnd for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:48:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oo1-xc33.google.com with SMTP id t12so2732477oot.2 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:48:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=clKPEF80/Jlj/+94caJXy3Ys5QOLTRCbvI8yNxm72R4=; b=JyGffvy0prm8V93CDB+uzsw4iESQF3qu8g+jhggXZFQ96TeLX0m1QyJLXMxqN37guJ NY8B58MrEKPSvgnSD3DVBtKEA++ZHcGIzPSts6lhU7wae1rYY4aSG+sGyMbW651gY8bq M8B0u0ecIs/xaF1k0tR2I0vA4GO/WD21dRsjRJLF7o4W05DDo8BcXukx0gbIbslLUJ0N Km5Ie6cKMJi2o4aP/4DGTZsuD8k4FGl2yBz3AAQGzFdoBiVpCRdwh/wHwy9Eoxbxpnsz MIt9LoHLQ1F7OspdaYvR9ZIFNyoJafmb3O1e6IhtL1g0s/5qeJCRajCeMqXyXxmPmTJO LfSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=clKPEF80/Jlj/+94caJXy3Ys5QOLTRCbvI8yNxm72R4=; b=JIfasrfKZazE+i25PT/g77KriDQZ+ualud1zAJXGxkMuRWshLtPljqxFfLiEFz6RKE W2/QcP/OHlI3V7E3NEBWtIYlPlnMbVotlTkvU3le4EsIo/a96dRKfLXl6mVX3H4sDCE9 A/jZGZlTwmvb7KwQDZdw5t5G6614GohigYl5q5KosnAagVJ25yTHgv07romcS53zScmq VWOOsQqffyZAVr7hRGl+l1O28O626S9BQKsUp7XpRho+n/G05+2uzUguWyG8X1uF8QQR zvo74leC6NgfJDtUjWjBJoMWd93qjGTV+NBsFrdFwMw9g3EJNfm9ofb499z69NOR8gJq 93dQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Puavhb1/HjBwReUKdQlh8wK4JokBlR9x0LT+rlZ+MytRbEHFCAZA O5vUTUs2irp0gRxmN5WyUpAluFTpW0Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLx+9wdXuAjYSwqGEq5dosvCyVsJQ2Jf4TUfqRN1SripsHjoz/uVlTBAZHNaiBrjhCYrPY46g== X-Received: by 2002:a4a:e495:: with SMTP id s21mr17888756oov.79.1587494893210; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com (mail-ot1-f51.google.com. [209.85.210.51]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a205sm906974oib.16.2020.04.21.11.48.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id m13so12038595otf.6; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:48:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6046:: with SMTP id v6mr13562705otj.6.1587494891989; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 11:48:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1857a572-751e-4fb0-baa3-1208b5d28b58@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1857a572-751e-4fb0-baa3-1208b5d28b58@localhost> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:47:41 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Greg V Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496CHz0L2xz3Lnd X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=JyGffvy0; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c33) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.29 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.c.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.99)[ip: (-9.16), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:48:15 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:11 PM Greg V wrote: > (..) > I don't have the time and I do not like Enlightenment, but I can answer any questions. Preferably in https://gitter.im/FreeBSDDesktop/Lobby instead of mailing lists. I am also short on time too, doing fun stuff in the meantime aka BRAIN TDMA, so I understand that fully, and this is also why I even more appreciate your very precise hints! Thank you Greg :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 19:02:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EDF12B56AD for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:02:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oi1-x230.google.com (mail-oi1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496CcV6sjHz3MpK for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:02:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oi1-x230.google.com with SMTP id m14so12990721oic.0 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:02:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gl12+UkU39Dm7tmkMYKLkKOCGuMZKn6JOAPxVCvj0Lc=; b=bGjMzZx5EXhJ0Rj5upt6/zbt9KVhImarbCxm5ag5V21sB4XmEQkEYqd4ik/XBtC+Cg xYLaHaeRf3c7GxEUpfjENB19/VkXHLIdMRbgBdXlFWVtc91XGtyxdY4QdAlod/sG5ekl rW1h9w0U+A2zThw6ZgPAnn/5EXOj8EuNchGk/KafgusXyjJFAx84DPhOXgP/ma/zpvy/ gjIj4h6hCnCVc+vlouBvf+rjZMIU01rNTIHGo17yU1cHosS9/ARzZspR8jfe5su65Z0v RB7bANu2pYJIosfbTx/8/RZnr6bGeFAneGho/QsYYeKBMwNcMo6ZzgHlhr8BzMQNdDRz SYZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gl12+UkU39Dm7tmkMYKLkKOCGuMZKn6JOAPxVCvj0Lc=; b=PRvxQK7uG1irjM399tgaLsTfL3JpzpgYDUDnbBsm+/pSRo/sFYUSOHKQg0Tq0PuvfM CdwOlcM3ZFR+X5uYQbIsacOgNw6GPTREopEXO43tml0QEIXdt1Knk7IDj87eCfSF6xYD eon0mJ/TzfMQWarGgdPHTHZ8iMpXPrUUZ9gjF/+H7fKGi7hpzucAY5y2IV0HgXw+DWxP cpcAnHBn8gLdBNgy1DUqu+5+UNDP7igxNv3rwVpmveyIzA7QAhMu0N5qToAZIayvxswN YOIdgZB2uf25CGN6Xq5VINEkAxTWQraB0KKZ3NZt8nYS5G1Kmcm4g4nBDJB2zINsje2b RvrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubkHlCoSC94XW7FrhgP9hE2OIi7Bagf3deOKomdObF9RNQA3hMZ HCWpZigdKEnCrOsfPCGk18NYsvoPob8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKo5TIs+d2jXr2e3ui6BDZpYRBWOI6B7iEPGH2TDiSfTBd+1xlXGXWB5g/4AWfWURYV6Utrpg== X-Received: by 2002:aca:efd4:: with SMTP id n203mr4325755oih.159.1587495753311; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f43.google.com (mail-ot1-f43.google.com. [209.85.210.43]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h10sm940012otq.47.2020.04.21.12.02.32 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f43.google.com with SMTP id z17so12114504oto.4 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6847:: with SMTP id c7mr12501424oto.159.1587495752310; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> <20200421201239.13ba81cb.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200421201239.13ba81cb.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 21:02:01 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Polytropon Cc: Paul Pathiakis , Robert Huff , FreeBSD , "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496CcV6sjHz3MpK X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=bGjMzZx5; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::230) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.09 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.79)[ip: (-8.12), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:02:36 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 8:13 PM Polytropon wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:01 +0000 (UTC), Paul Pathiakis wrote: > > :D I love it when I see reactions to problems like this on FreeBSD.... :D > > Let's just imagine Wayland on FreeBSD + Enlightenment to > become a FreeBSD-native (!) desktop environment with GUI > integreation for OS configuration and control... :-) > > Yes, I know, this can (partially) be done with Xfce, Gnome, > KDE, Lxde, but more or less, that is fighting Linuxisms > and still being stuck with stuff that has been abandoned > in Linux world many years ago (think about HAL and DBus). > The degree of incompatibility could be increasing if the > modern development of desktop environments will concentrate > on Linux as the target, and on FreeBSD, you can only get > 3/4 of what's technically possible. EFL is fully independent GUI framework created to run on smart embedded systems (particulary TizenOS), so the efficiency, memory footprint, and stuff like that are included by design - for instance things are compressed on the disk, then only needed part is uncompressed into memory. I was really astonished that people still think that way. Its like watching stuff from 80's that were designed and optimized for Atari or Amiga :-) That matches the BSD philosophy of efficency and independence. Most of the code is BSD, modules are LGPL.. there is one GPL module that not necessarily needs to be included. This is why I got interested in :-) Enlightenment is based on EFL. I feel like time traveled 20+ years back, at least, with all new features available :-) Also the developers of EFL / E are very responsive and open for porting BSD stuff inside :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 19:25:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494202B671C for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:25:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gregv.net) Received: from aurora.gregv.net (aurora.gregv.net [192.111.144.138]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496D6y4pzSz3P88 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:25:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@gregv.net) Received: by aurora.gregv.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 250FC721; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:25:23 -0400 From: Greg Veldman To: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20200421192523.GK1068@aurora.gregv.net> References: <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <866951718.416132.1587490981371@mail.yahoo.com> <202004212019.44588.dr.klepp@gmx.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <202004212019.44588.dr.klepp@gmx.at> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496D6y4pzSz3P88 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@gregv.net has no SPF policy when checking 192.111.144.138) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@gregv.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.99 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gregv.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.97)[0.972,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.997,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmx.at]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31863, ipnet:192.111.144.0/20, country:US]; IP_SCORE(1.12)[ipnet: 192.111.144.0/20(2.01), asn: 31863(3.63), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:25:32 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 08:19:44PM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > If I recall correctly, the Xorg of OpenBSD has all security problems of original Xorg patched, and that for quite some time. Only nobody seams to be interested. It's been a long time since I've run OpenBSD, but if memory serves they didn't so much patch them as work around them in the kernel in some very interesting ways. See for example: https://man.openbsd.org/xf86.4 -- Greg Veldman freebsd@gregv.net From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 20:04:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A877C2B90B5; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:04:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thierry@pompo.net) Received: from erza.lautre.net (erza.lautre.net [80.67.160.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "lautre.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496DzZ09Nfz46yj; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:04:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thierry@pompo.net) Received: from graf.pompo.net (graf.pompo.net [78.225.128.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by erza.lautre.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA908F191B; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:04:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: by graf.pompo.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A90946206CD; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:04:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:04:05 +0200 From: Thierry Thomas To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Office Hours: April 1, 2020 18:00 UTC Message-ID: <20200421200405.GS36609@graf.pompo.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <5cae4eda-b3e9-a65e-a2dc-8f9435f20236@freebsd.org> <056ee35e-4645-6ffe-e0a9-9b4940a5ba1a@freebsd.org> <20200402132634.GE89783@graf.pompo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RYJh/3oyKhIjGcML" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200402132634.GE89783@graf.pompo.net> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 12.1-STABLE amd64 Organization: Kabbale Eros X-Face: (hRbQnK~Pt7$ct`!fupO(`y_WL4^-Iwn4@ly-.,[4xC4xc; y=\ipKMNm<1J>lv@PP~7Z<.tKjAnXLs: X-PGP: 0xF1C516B3C8359753 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496DzZ09Nfz46yj X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of thierry@pompo.net designates 80.67.160.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=thierry@pompo.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.92 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.82)[ip: (-9.19), ipnet: 80.67.160.0/19(-2.75), asn: 20766(-2.17), country: FR(0.00)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[thierry@freebsd.org,thierry@pompo.net]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20766, ipnet:80.67.160.0/19, country:FR]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[thierry@freebsd.org,thierry@pompo.net]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 20:04:11 -0000 --RYJh/3oyKhIjGcML Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le jeu. 2 avr. 20 =C3=A0 15:26:34 +0200, Thierry Thomas =C3=A9crivait=C2=A0: > It could be translated as: > Preparing=E2=80=A6 > You'll be able to join the conf RSN >=20 > but this message stayed forever, and I never joined. >=20 > Is there some special configuration needed? According to Peter Wemm on Twitter: "Small tip: if using google meet for whatever reason on Firefox / FreeBSD, a custom user-agent string for the domain meet dot google dot com will get you by. Just like with twitch, changing "FreeBSD" to "FreeBSD not Linux" works." To be tested next time! --=20 Th. Thomas. --RYJh/3oyKhIjGcML Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJen1G0XxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRFNTM2QkU4NTM4NTM5OUQwMEI2RkFBNzZG MUM1MTZCM0M4MzU5NzUzAAoJEPHFFrPINZdTZKMQAMPI53P9cEozKEvkueNXl3rZ iYA6Lfla5Tx7MDJ2wkfoQuXgJipTn2ZyVx1j7/jg0KbX1g8gq1uA3l+Zxbz3EZ+G eoFWXYo462eeoyLbvcWter4ygQ0hX1mixhdgcEt2wvOfD3YFchhDJsHCZduWyR9v wp/g3a/L+f9a8wiBdDJBtZfcQsIWqpVpkjNX3JpL0famh5ciht1l7D18FZTxPFNT v/Da/rPWGo8lNIIKsCvV/jXWuLBOYRlLP77r2YaS+STc9+0xbKVgYx/LWcv+rKW/ 2hSJcR3kAvwkTI5EhsYnhv2OFMfNYqjks0QWfXyY+AAsICDIWmnprG814+C73iKR IWnNSANhhh6M69x0PaEs5gFuu1wURAZVvuuFL6PWg4oED8v4r1/KU7sd8aZ4E3P/ /KJMWC6TP2LydKfd7KWb3A95ruxAxl0LuqvD0q+qUwjxxV2V5Z+OFI3nDYBGuZhY leV5+BcocQsexOSindNhb+VVHLgVS1cOJmFsZQPBnChsYwC2UU5xQDBtFFOaLLqv SlNMZ/WZ6AdYNbPwE0zJxZTVFTl4SmEK0IenCIIYuNeh5dyNkJiNCb41iCqmb+dF DPHTFmAPywye0FRyys5NLsDREKCQkUweH5eC3SBRVACc9hGvC7/XlZosE+aUAlFy 6m4tYPuXQpDEBIAM/mIc =uzed -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RYJh/3oyKhIjGcML-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 21 21:13:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216D62BB091 for ; 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Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:12 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:13:11 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jR0Cc-000Do0-6A; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:13:10 +0100 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:13:10 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Jan Beich Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200421221310.3cff2c00bba2226716db0da4@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421153013.640ea96596f03973cb7cbc16@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496GWR07kBz4Dd6 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; 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MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100034499b0.420ca99ce2f2c63fc87007a6fb2d29c3@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 21:13:24 -0000 On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:02:58 +0200 Jan Beich wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:07:41 +0200 > > Polytropon wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:18:51 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > >> > On 20 Apr 2020, at 02:24, Ihor Antonov wrote: > >> > > But even in 10 years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X11 > >> > > >> > Perhaps. A tiny percentage. The rest will continue as they are now, > >> > avoiding X11 at all costs because it is insecure bloat that > >> > interferes with the desired operation of the machine. > >> > >> Depends. If Wayland can offer all features that X11 offers at > >> the moment, > > > > Wayland is not network transparent which has always been the > > major advantage (and disadvantage) of X11 over everything else. > > Did you try net/waypipe port/package ? First I've heard of it, that might make Wayland worth looking at (I find network transparency useful often enough not to want to lose it), although with my odd tastes it might be hard finding a Wayland WM I like. > X11 network transparency is also > available via Xwayland which is started automatically. Sure, but if I'm going to use X I might as well use X. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 00:22:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CEC2BF7AB for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:22:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from philip@list.199903.xyz) Received: from mail.postale.io (mail.postale.io [5.135.179.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.postale.io", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496Ljf6SsKz4R01 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:22:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from philip@list.199903.xyz) Subject: Re: About wayland To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> From: Philip Message-ID: <2374cb33-48f6-4bac-54ca-ca8aedd4650f@list.199903.xyz> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:22:24 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from localhost (Unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mail.postale.io (Haraka) with ESMTPSA id AF37B126-898B-4EFC-8DA1-B73E8597239A.1 envelope-from (authenticated bits=0) (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:22:28 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; bh=KinQOgtii7N1hmRAqKiPY/SioYt9qSCiCj83u4z09rw=; c=relaxed/simple; d=list.199903.xyz; h=from:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version; s=s20200415127; b=h+fmu7APx841S4o2ixZxoXOjQUlO8bi6biDuQ+o3RuC+NTkYnuNPXttrTBV12wiAUDHNddrQWKumJfrLi+/YL6uw7E+s/TqWPEJB9ZdefidsBPVtLshAuJrSI2wdPC08wqdlWZKMWoQ3IxOVQeD3NMdL8C9mO2/wZ9ijM70P84M= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496Ljf6SsKz4R01 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none (invalid DKIM record) header.d=list.199903.xyz header.s=s20200415127 header.b=h+fmu7AP; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of philip@list.199903.xyz designates 5.135.179.34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=philip@list.199903.xyz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.86)[-0.861,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[199903.xyz]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.962,0]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[list.199903.xyz:~]; R_DKIM_PERMFAIL(0.00)[list.199903.xyz:s=s20200415127]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.58)[ipnet: 5.135.0.0/16(0.90), asn: 16276(2.01), country: FR(0.00)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:5.135.0.0/16, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:22:32 -0000 Just curious, who is Wayland? a people name? Thanks. Jacques Foucry wrote: > Please excuse my ignorancebut could some body make a post about waylan. > > There's a new thread about wayland, you talk of it like it's "your old friend > since elementary school » but it's not my case. > > As I understood it's and "evolution", another way to make graphical disply, > the primary one is X11. > > Could you take a little bit of your time From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 00:31:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C012BFD86 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:31:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com (mail-ot1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496LwB2JLvz4RXJ for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:31:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id e20so613983otk.12 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:31:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IS7qI0BlGdqt7R+3IFBWCg/XwLQyHDD86i7JOCkoBTQ=; b=dn7VlK/WKQIR/bPucnfOipElF1WCNyTXpRl6GeP7tRhZi18PtC+tQQtrttHpB7h3VZ Pd0r37ktw65FBqCJStSMaIJ9Gif/nTb/gmPagSjPQ+kb+7K6CmL4Etucv0gvw18HnCfF dM6AVrwGoB8I+Jin317/Gf0WVaP5HTbEeCmSAJQaCHiKGjTMNF0XaFE3tCit7lyDqTxk 9UFyQVaZuhMiv1jf856IWhsS5EaivdzX5+5YQYWxafrKMMDsR45n49eqsRS5qOvWmFTa qMX3odIbpcG3FT18+Z9hKGChWHy98+95UERtk1zjlg1hDOA44cFnuzqEE/vAaVkktLiF 4W2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IS7qI0BlGdqt7R+3IFBWCg/XwLQyHDD86i7JOCkoBTQ=; b=AvF/eFW+N3D3q4Ya/mbonvwNvQwlA0/yFbSnZNLhOerWFKi8afHQ6EXJ2EcIXDM/G/ F8KBrWvPNZhPSCkPQP2AJoe5kY8ti695sOy9CC/je5piUyPm806lgz0rgaS6AOXjLXAi jJ744dFo5OuVgYPrNLnrzA+C4uVb+p84zykO2bogbH1yDg/+VjxOIlWtkWM6YkIDscc/ PGERw97nJA8OAjcGTyLGehytfbr1Z1F+uyQ6RnB/pHcHZ9gYdOccMG+UaTkt51HvGdtc vwut05DO5nHStXNWl9F0I6xCVqnfhWh2Y/2YdjwZXEa2BROUJyHrEK1tpP+UOjXnbK8n gvFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubQUN+H667ZDd6pj9xJ8sjArkFWuxGLFXWAsFMJQSEv6q8qmPvI 4FVkRPp/0IOQAB0cgqMVloHHnfXNr3Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLDaVXU21NRmbhKVbjU8eQtiLSiBOsnhAfRAc3aPqLJotu4VMsZo9ojmyQQ7srzF/E25OEq+g== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7d85:: with SMTP id j5mr12465468otn.107.1587515496469; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f178.google.com (mail-oi1-f178.google.com. [209.85.167.178]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 69sm1151122otv.8.2020.04.21.17.31.35 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f178.google.com with SMTP id m14so450895oic.0 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:31:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:6184:: with SMTP id v126mr4870502oib.168.1587515495350; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:31:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> <2374cb33-48f6-4bac-54ca-ca8aedd4650f@list.199903.xyz> In-Reply-To: <2374cb33-48f6-4bac-54ca-ca8aedd4650f@list.199903.xyz> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:31:04 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: About wayland To: Philip Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496LwB2JLvz4RXJ X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=dn7VlK/W; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::334) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.93 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.63)[ip: (-7.33), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:31:39 -0000 On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:22 AM Philip wrote: > Just curious, who is Wayland? a people name? Who will be Weyland.. looks like he is already somewhere out there.. maybe even building electric cars and reusable space rockets already :-) :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLeF6EqulUI The Weyland-Yutani Corporation, often shortened to Weyland-Yutani and commonly referred to as Wey-Yu[1] or simply "The Company",[2][3] is a large British/Japanese[4] multinational conglomerate. It was founded in 2099 by the merger of Weyland Corp and the Yutani Corporation.[5] Weyland-Yutani is primarily a technology supplier, manufacturing synthetics, spaceships and computers for a wide range of industrial and commercial clients, making them a household name.[6] Weyland-Yutani also has numerous non-manufacturing interests; the company has extensive assets in interplanetary shipping and transport, and is one of the corporations that operates human colonies outside the solar system, through the Extrasolar Colonization Administration.[2] The company also has a seat on the review board of the Interstellar Commerce Commission[7] (which it owns, although the organization itself is ostensibly independent[8]). They hold their main offices in Tokyo, London, San Francisco, the Sea of Tranquillity on Luna and on Thedus.[9] -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 01:33:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CABD2C12CF for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:33:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jguojun@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-x242.google.com (mail-oi1-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::242]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496NHX2dgbz4VHV for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:33:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jguojun@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi1-x242.google.com with SMTP id m14so556698oic.0 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:33:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=+96CHpq63QcSVmHazKzBWTFkE0W0ttBUvyaMF17At7k=; b=u452BS9xrpPclLwHEaw5hPlkYfKyl52bc2NzqewJ5jzV+V/VTattDuz5IdlDYm0x2R mqXNT6yLeADdWRHiffA5lLEtKb6CzZB4FWHAqzbMhV4z4kPm6p4iVmJmUYqcTYao0zEH AZJCQsVOphaYGnCCH+Ph68iS82zGwSpA2rLFvFd+m6vscLC6cy2tT5bv3eYBRT4+hK2D 2mHT+sW6DDYL9Lay1EfBiv4R/z8peCfDarS5R3tnfcgqqeKR2ylMWmQPsW3Dzqzik0dN NwIL3ycxNp0sumy15UaexYWb455djqwAOsN0rkxSl7pTXYHZhAP7TPg1qeF9kRijUN0U /cIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=+96CHpq63QcSVmHazKzBWTFkE0W0ttBUvyaMF17At7k=; b=Vsd8YwVAFB/nfwZocmoHxNrFUlM2XaDO9x/fTxtyaFIdaZKed7X1FDBQQxX/El9NPC 7C6niVLszH3eoY9xts5sTB3deuUc9F1c+Wv114WPqcmsgUvS9rxZvYHlTOc+PsyM1vsS sTks2sgNeQwx8nrxHX2obWr+G2Nb3eIsC86UNyX/9ApCiELfTEEqb0D/xECiedl48/Qj hACSHNOMOGcBEo3L9JwtiXxXyeWayg+I0BxRarTohIoviwctvVOzx1TiHQjrayHYlzhG MVp3Vmae7XtFvqBLOzNoLdeY/63u6M60po46bcjAXzfIcYx31kB+++EulXEHsa0pciYj Bxjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua+iGI6BGEnCZM1E2cgOct3vXk2pOipRoVz790jropyMP024sy9 SzYOxzgnoExcuVf6lBeTUHRBGJ0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL25PNTbghTMMF+tcBwTLSUUbiJVDUeXd4iHE1QNPqEtxCSZS3aA7F8nOuJIvEX5MXIGFEHiA== X-Received: by 2002:aca:f50e:: with SMTP id t14mr5061054oih.156.1587519206876; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.82] (162-239-0-170.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [162.239.0.170]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 69sm1186485otv.8.2020.04.21.18.33.25 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Should fsck honour "failok" in fstab as mount does? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200421071319.GA98163@thismonkey.com> <20200421153144.d45a889b.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421135406.GA74559@thismonkey.com> <20200421160939.aa2fbd89.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421143321.GA33168@thismonkey.com> <20200421170313.16d4235e.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421155812.GA54069@thismonkey.com> <20200421182426.45473fbd.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200421215542.GB98882@neutralgood.org> From: "Jin Guojun[VFF]" Message-ID: <483e5a42-0bbc-ff00-1c26-3c26ef45762e@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:33:20 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200421215542.GB98882@neutralgood.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496NHX2dgbz4VHV X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=u452BS9x; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jguojun@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::242 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jguojun@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.12), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.4.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:33:29 -0000 On 04/21/20 14:55, Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 06:24:26PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: >> Right. The problem with changing a keyword's meaning could >> lead to confusion for admins who _expect_ a certain behaviour. >> So maybe new optional keywords would be the better way to go. >> So existing configurations just won't notice, and new settings >> can be added if desired. >> >> Another possibility would be a keyword named "optional", >> so when the filesystem exists && is clean && can be mounted, >> it will be accessible; if not, errors at any stage will not >> interrupt the mount process. It would probably be a good >> idea to have /etc/rc.d/fsck output a warning to the system >> log file in such a case, so the admin _can_ perform checks >> and repair if it should be needed. > Is it useful to have an fstab option that means "fsck MUST succeed! But > mount doesn't have to."?? Personally, I'm not seeing it. If I had noticed > "failok" myself I might have assumed it also applied to fsck. > > Ok, the man page does say it is processed by "mount" and doesn't mention > any other program. But I don't see how it makes sense to have an option > that allows a broken system to come up but only if the brokenness is caught > by mount and not fsck. Agreed with failok option for mount should also apply to fsck. Also, in a sequential operations for the same type of device, the falling into the single user mode should happen in the last step; in this case, the mount daemon. Since mount daemon can determine what file systems it needs, it guides boot-up process for the system, thus no reason for fsck to kill the boot process earlier. If fsck sees a failure, and drops system into single user mode, then failok option in fstab is unlikely useful. For below file system, the /scratch partition is not required. System will run well even if it is missing. User or admin can replace the failure drive later, then, why let system down till this problem fixed? /dev/ada1s1a    /                    ufs     rw       1       1 /dev/ada1s1b    none            swap    sw      0       0 ... /dev/ada0s4d    /scratch         ufs     rw,failok      2       2 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 03:26:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54432C461F for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 03:26:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496QpT5sWnz4bwY for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 03:26:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1587526016; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=ypRWJVICcz+jPOk6/SWIZ69WwKw=; b=Jiw7tNSJSy/9Td/u1V6K+RyDnRde2OQJ9RaxIQbPuuE8Yi4JGj2P01+t9NH5eMtg 5gVjfJqLeC98fv8jp0WpyrrAINyPQTRlKfrlNPueHyBKCa8vqh3Ny86ZU2h3AyIQ W4dEauheWQKCgT+mKZ4KwifxXfhnX4OLHYMnUi6t7MhQhNi4KraJN2aUQ8Ll9S5j TraI9y5zYlbtLaRimVDF/BwnWES8jNvWrHM+rOE1IX5NlL+KGZx7wFaWkoN2C3d6 /FHjLBovmk8ggIvSewUMuD7joHA26elLkDadYVoXrQG/8XK97MKxZpLxL/Q9pEXL XPBg2z80PraxRH5cuJ+T5A==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Z5uS40ZA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=cl8xLZFz6L8A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=mzwXpDPPZQuoAauZ6SUA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:20232] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id B9/0B-10869-089BF9E5; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:26:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24223.47488.85521.628719@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:26:56 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: Polytropon , FreeBSD , "\@lbutlr" Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496QpT5sWnz4bwY X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=Jiw7tNSJ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.51)[ip: (-8.99), ipnet: 69.168.97.0/24(0.73), asn: 36271(0.75), country: US(-0.05)]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[78.97.168.69.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[78.97.168.69.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 03:26:58 -0000 Kevin P. Neal writes: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 01:30:07PM -0400, Robert Huff wrote: > > Also: if I understand the conversation, Wayland works OK when > > client and server are the same machine, but not over a network? > > I thought I read that Wayland considers access over the network to be a > solved problem without having to build it into the lowest levels of the > graphics stack. Remote Desktop, VNC, etc., all give network access. What > you miss is intermingling of windows from several machines. But is that > such a common use case that it should be designed for from the start? Define "common". :-) I can bear witness to having done so (using X) multiple times over a 30 year career. In no case was it the only possible solution; in several it was clearly superior to the alternatives. That various major players implement and actively maintain some version suggests the concept is valuable. Anyone else? Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 05:25:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124192C6495 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 05:25:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496TR44qbLz3DRS for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 05:25:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03M5PCW3055717 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:25:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:25:12 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Valeri Galtsev , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-ID: <20200421222512.23a93b57@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> <20200421120756.GA98882@neutralgood.org> <21fdc970-5408-51c8-c11e-d2832191e137@kicp.uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 6) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.2-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.83 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496TR44qbLz3DRS X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.01)[country: US(-0.05)]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 05:25:22 -0000 On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:08:06 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:52 AM Valeri Galtsev > wrote: > > Kevin (and others), > > > > Please, stop feeding the troll. > > > > Other mail lists will kick him long time up the thread already. This > > list is too kind, and is being abused due to that. Stop helping the list > > being abused. > Sorry to ask a very naive question but since all I am doing is defending > FreeBSD's choice of licenses and explaining (IMO) why it is right [to] make me > a troll? This is a common tactic by someone who disagrees with you but cannot pierce your arguments and/or convince you of your wrongness. The goal is to get the list to perceive you as "abusive" (by some arbitrary definition of abusive) and hence this person "wins" by removing your ability to debate. My advice is to ignore it and them. Lately, I've been trying to convince people that convincing people of things is futile...but for some reason that hasn't been successful. :) -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< Nasrudin was sitting on a river bank when someone shouted to him from the opposite side: "Hey! how do I get across?" "You -are- across!" Nasrudin shouted back. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 06:00:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20982C6B3D for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:00:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100034b2d9e.e0bdfad098494f247a9035507930abeb@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496VCq6cJzz3FWs for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:00:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100034b2d9e.e0bdfad098494f247a9035507930abeb@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587535240; x=1590127240; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=39U5lKDluEDrNlt6+JuavXKxpd8J1wgT7uy+L/ta0u8=; b=d6/z7Tl4RpHchq40391N0g/1PioaDkaD2Y4CLaNcCEawvukpE9iEXXROSSKmvC2grraidgCd0oN3dxEt5NvB6cAnOcr26CG92YRIOltiwgQwxP9tyD0EJG8s71Kt6CxaDatUNtOnyyBNwVP18Vo+wWiQ57sbympj9rwLaNkyiSI= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDM0YjJkOWUuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r4.h.in.socketlabs.com (s1-b40f.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.180.15]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:00:30 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r4.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:00:29 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jR8Qu-000GFR-8S for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:00:28 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:00:28 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200422070028.30dd2fb16ccae9b6d9cde901@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496VCq6cJzz3FWs X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=d6/z7Tl4; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100034b2d9e.e0bdfad098494f247a9035507930abeb@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100034b2d9e.e0bdfad098494f247a9035507930abeb@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.972,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.23), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.32), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100034b2d9e.e0bdfad098494f247a9035507930abeb@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100034b2d9e.e0bdfad098494f247a9035507930abeb@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:00:41 -0000 On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 22:32:43 -0400 "Kevin P. Neal" wrote: > I thought I read that Wayland considers access over the network to be a > solved problem without having to build it into the lowest levels of the > graphics stack. Remote Desktop, VNC, etc., all give network access. To a desktop not to an application. > What > you miss is intermingling of windows from several machines. But is that > such a common use case that it should be designed for from the start? I use it often enough that I'd miss it, the authors of ssh found it useful enough to add ssh -X and ssh -Y to support using it. So yes I think there's common use of it. It seems there's a waypipe that can achieve this for Wayland, one day if tuits appear I might get round to trying it. > Oh, and is XWayland still a thing? Or the other way around? Yes to both, Xwayland is still a thing and run by default and you can run Wayland as an X client. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 06:14:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912872C7374 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:14:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496VWG3qbhz3GbW for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:14:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id z2so1099019iol.11 for ; 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Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:14:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> <20200421120756.GA98882@neutralgood.org> <21fdc970-5408-51c8-c11e-d2832191e137@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200421222512.23a93b57@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: <20200421222512.23a93b57@bigus.dream-tech.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:13:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Dave Hayes Cc: Valeri Galtsev , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496VWG3qbhz3GbW X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=j1gfS40I; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.17), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:14:03 -0000 On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:25 AM Dave Hayes wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:08:06 -0400 > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:52 AM Valeri Galtsev < > galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu> > > wrote: > > > Kevin (and others), > > > > > > Please, stop feeding the troll. > > > > > > Other mail lists will kick him long time up the thread already. This > > > list is too kind, and is being abused due to that. Stop helping the > list > > > being abused. > > Sorry to ask a very naive question but since all I am doing is defending > > FreeBSD's choice of licenses and explaining (IMO) why it is right [to] > make me > > a troll? > > This is a common tactic by someone who disagrees with you but cannot pierce > your arguments and/or convince you of your wrongness. The goal is to get > the > list to perceive you as "abusive" (by some arbitrary definition of abusive) > and hence this person "wins" by removing your ability to debate. > > My advice is to ignore it and them. > You might not of wanted to defend me now you will be labeled a troll by association. It sure would be nice there was some requirement on the list to state in your signature or something what your preferred OS (and license) is. The reason for saying that is it is abundantly clear to me that the people who took offense to my comments publicly fall into one or more of a few categories -- all of which were/are not subject matter of this debate, which is should FreeBSD adopt GPL and as a side issue can programmers make a living under GPL (see article on licensees on the foundation's site for the arguments since I agree with every single statement made in it: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/bsdl-gpl/index.html). Just so it is clear here are the categories (as far I can tell) of people who loudly objected to my comments: 1. End-users (even if you are a computer professional by only doing IT, e.g. sys/netadmins, and not programming, you are an end-user for this purpose) 2. Work for large organizations with excellent job security 3. Prefer Linux over FreeBSD (and by extension prefer GPL over the BSD license) 4. If they are open source developers (none provably are) then their work is subsidized by some organization that sees software as not their primary business but the open source project does make their main product line more useful (ex. Apple supporting various projects makes Macs and iPhones more useful). Note: Every one of these categories benefit from having free (money) software as well the right to modify it to suit their local needs. For this reason anything that makes software ever cost money is a bad thing in their eyes. Note though if you get a free lunch then the cook doesn't get paid (and if done frequently enough starve to death). And also to be clear here are the categories I fall into -- which are the exact opposite of the above, thus making the people arguing against me uniquely unqualified to understand the economic realities of someone in my position. 1. Programmer (I am an end-user only so far as it helps my programming and/or non-professional use of computers/the Internet) 2. Member of a tiny (2 people) consulting/freelance team that makes custom software for clients who view the software as being key to their ability to generate funding for their organizations. Much of this software is subject to various regulations that have fines associated with them for ignoring the regulations (ex. HIPAA in the US... $50k/patient/breech fines for willful disregard of the regulations by a software developer). Given both these no client in their right mind would not force us to sign a contract that makes us a full partner in the liability (in some cases the regulations even require us to sign such contracts). If I was forced to give away our work, as I would be under GPL, then we would be insane to do it (same for all of our competitors). 3. We do not have a large organization behind us. It is only us and the client (and the regulations). For this reason when we do release stuff that is general purpose and not client specific we do so under the BSD license because it negates none of the realities above while GPL does (we don't consider must of our libraries to be mature enough for use by third parties yet thus will send them on request but have not put them up for general download). Note we purposely open source all such non-client specific code in order to avoid some client attempting to claim it as their own (since we never billed the client for it, they have no possible claim). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 06:39:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9652C7FDF for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:39:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from fedex2.jetcafe.org (fedex2.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "fedex2.jetcafe.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496W5103Xgz3J00 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:39:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) X-Envelope-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from bigus.dream-tech.com (bigus.jetcafe.org [205.147.26.7]) by fedex2.jetcafe.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03M6dlht077938 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:39:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:39:46 -0700 From: Dave Hayes To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List , Valeri Galtsev Subject: Re: GPL, not freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-ID: <20200421233946.752c8633@bigus.dream-tech.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20200420011735.6448818053ED@ary.qy> <20200421120756.GA98882@neutralgood.org> <21fdc970-5408-51c8-c11e-d2832191e137@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200421222512.23a93b57@bigus.dream-tech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1 ( out of 6) ALL_TRUSTED,SHORTCIRCUIT X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin version 3.4.2-jetcafeglobal X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.83 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496W5103Xgz3J00 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dave@jetcafe.org designates 205.147.26.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dave@jetcafe.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jetcafe.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.01)[country: US(-0.05)]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7397, ipnet:205.147.0.0/18, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:39:50 -0000 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 02:13:49 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 1:25 AM Dave Hayes wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:08:06 -0400 > > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:52 AM Valeri Galtsev < > > galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu> > > > wrote: > > > > Kevin (and others), > > > > > > > > Please, stop feeding the troll. > > > > > > > > Other mail lists will kick him long time up the thread already. This > > > > list is too kind, and is being abused due to that. Stop helping the > > list > > > > being abused. > > > Sorry to ask a very naive question but since all I am doing is defending > > > FreeBSD's choice of licenses and explaining (IMO) why it is right [to] > > make me > > > a troll? > > This is a common tactic by someone who disagrees with you but cannot pierce > > your arguments and/or convince you of your wrongness. The goal is to get > > the > > list to perceive you as "abusive" (by some arbitrary definition of abusive) > > and hence this person "wins" by removing your ability to debate. > > > > My advice is to ignore it and them. > > You might not of wanted to defend me now you will be labeled a troll by > association. I was neither defending nor attacking. As to labels, these are meaningless to me. I certainly am not going to change my behavior to satisfy someone else's arbitrary sensibilities. Ultimately, this forum's debates are just like every other forum's debates. The same drama plays out. Because their assumptions are shouting too loudly, they cannot hear anything other than their own viewpoint. This seems to be the normal form of human discourse. > It sure would be nice there was some requirement on the list > to state in your signature or something what your preferred OS (and > license) is. That would be like stating your religion in a sea of zealots. It might be fun for some, but it is ultimately futile. -- Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>>> *The opinions expressed above are entirely my own* <<<< It is only knowledge that will destroy bias. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 08:23:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9982AB351; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:23:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496YP13C9Xz3Q0t; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:23:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id c16so1048841ilr.3; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:23:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8PowIReH41uWJFfudmlR5VMocuUW9hw81qgXGyrcZhk=; b=b5BHdB0Pd7qP1RsIBlhmy1Ub2+pTqaE6ZZi3SZ1RbiKSjJ3p7bOGonwsbzi8QIyj8I kfWawiW2yLLQy70IOVrS0gVKrn/EUCiJs8CnWj94+AFKAcXqxRFYvHoCsR4RXbFKBdt4 u4bk1MhWgFSSc+LBv9hBIzaHt62xIQACBwKF3fdZdeU0sMXC43M52GtwG1VMuIKFbT6F bOhDqNfk29fj/VcEMTEqhF1OE6J/rrxSslGHPIXB5kLFtKMArpuf0pXK5Hc0aiEcwwN4 2R8sxDpGnwljdLmP/Ud3ACAeXMZ5UF5LUam1fkLr8lYywh4BYCkf0r2yNw4eXaCwxJb7 umuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8PowIReH41uWJFfudmlR5VMocuUW9hw81qgXGyrcZhk=; b=oJoEwl/NvjQN2Ua734hYV8C1YeQmFqs5wfsre4SmHtCYHy8ic1c3cDi5twb73ra2oy hGBvdTw2HWaKxzioTenuo7zy68Z3yZr2t9C36t4xPeQYFb2f1JMGn5xPpoqkiYIUhV4Y /1wign/uGca/9I/xzw2hDYyWEZCwiDJgdQXruc6QnjiNePiWLeRVUWxAPbx37hrLTti6 5YrlEfYU36dbJfwvwNIHXDiAmNTEQOQ8n8oS8WeCVoAcrxTfW8hFoiRW25uRD7y2WobN jRlgv0jFqgQ1UajHRp8swYX3idQFkNwVfQTkFqNwC4dUxDTu8rOOLQlGQdGmhmmloAMr KjWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZZTkrSVnnBSpr2dxn6thhsKwOWGB3GT9f2Qi+JiMBnv6e/lKy0 CZ7Xsns2KyAtNSt3Fsomfuwtd7RYmXIVTORQE/8n/9kR X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypId2RsT37aaT2uws3fX9BAoy9eQc3dyOECO75aeb29ErE18W7ZxinpWqInuAJEcNIB6fCbbuOlTUGlf8vWS6+c= X-Received: by 2002:a92:ce08:: with SMTP id b8mr25779637ilo.69.1587543827173; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 01:23:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6c7abdcf-aeef-4af4-b8f4-9d7fd0e45cf0@localhost> <7fba319c-c012-8893-3ce0-e2a166c38d2d@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: From: Frederic Chardon Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:23:35 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Jan Beich Cc: Niclas Zeising , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496YP13C9Xz3Q0t X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=b5BHdB0P; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of chardonfrederic@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::131 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=chardonfrederic@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.50 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-7.89), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 08:23:51 -0000 Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 23:06, Jan Beich a =C3=A9c= rit : > > Frederic Chardon writes: > > > > > The trace shows usage of llvmpipe after the failed ioctl on > > /dev/dri/card0, so as I understand the lack of hardware acceleration > > concerns only Xwayland, whereas wayland itself is accelerated ? > > Yep. Check which ioctls fail then try to reproduce outside of Mesa or > hardcode the result. Overriding PCI ID via INTEL_DEVID_OVERRIDE is > unlikely to help e.g., All below failure occurs only in xwayland, X11 and wayland succeed. The first failure is with I915_PARAM_CHIPSET_ID. When I hardcode the correct ID I get a failure with I915_PARAM_HAS_RELAXED_DATA. When I force the result to be true (as with X11 and Wayland), the ioctl DRM_I915_GEM_EXECBUFFER2_WR fails with errno EPERM. Should I open an issue on drm-kms github? Or it is more likely a problem on mesa side? > https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-x11/2019-January/022551.html > > If you still have no clue try playing with sysctls under compat.linuxkpi > via /boot/loader.conf. Any hints which ones are worth a try? How did you solve your issue (as it seems to be pretty similar). 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FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:2a01:111:f000::/36, country:US]; FORGED_MUA_THUNDERBIRD_MSGID_UNKNOWN(2.50)[]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[i=1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:06:04 -0000 Hi, I am writing a FreeBSD application in which I need to know the graphics configurations for different graphics chips. 1) nvidia - I think I know this case. this needs installation of packages nvidia-driver / nvidia-settings / nvidia-texture-tools / nvidia-xconfig. The user then needs to set in /etc/rc.conf : kld_list="/boot/modules/nvidia.ko /boot/modules/nvidia-modesetting.ko" The user also needs to configure xorg.conf (most easily done by just running nvidia-xconfig). 2) radeon - I think I know this case too. The user just needs to set in /etc/rc.conf : kld_list="/boot/kernel/radeon.ko /boot/kernel/radeonkms.ko" The user does not need to configure xorg.conf. Xorg configures itself. 3) amdgpu - Not sure here. Appears to me that this needs the user to install the xf86-video-amdgpu package. Anything else ? 4) intel - Not sure here too. Appears to me that this needs the user to install the xf86-video-intel package. Anything else ? Further, /boot/kernel also holds i915.ko and i915kms.ko. When are these modules needed ? Thanks for any information. Manish Jain From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 10:38:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15C52AF66A for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:38:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from 8.mo68.mail-out.ovh.net (8.mo68.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.74.219]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496cN73140z44Jt for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:38:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from player779.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.108.57.226]) by mo68.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F5F164087 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:38:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from defert.com (ip-146-0-189-114.dyn.luxfibre.pt.lu [146.0.189.114]) (Authenticated sender: 20.100@defert.com) by player779.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20DBE119D539F for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:38:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Message-ID: <11b61d37-9548-5182-677f-ebdf59ca6390@defert.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:38:10 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: fr X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 2203386117840242692 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrgeejgddvkecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfqggfjpdevjffgvefmvefgnecuuegrihhlohhuthemucehtddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepgghinhgtvghnthcufffghffgtffvuceovddtrddutddtseguvghfvghrthdrtghomheqnecukfhppedtrddtrddtrddtpddugeeirddtrddukeelrdduudegnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpqdhouhhtpdhhvghlohepphhlrgihvghrjeejledrhhgrrdhovhhhrdhnvghtpdhinhgvtheptddrtddrtddrtddpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepfhhrvggvsghsugdqqhhuvghsthhiohhnshesfhhrvggvsghsugdrohhrgh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496cN73140z44Jt X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=defert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 20.100@defert.com designates 46.105.74.219 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=20.100@defert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.90 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.927,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:mail-out.ovh.net]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[defert.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[219.74.105.46.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.82)[ipnet: 46.105.0.0/16(2.07), asn: 16276(2.01), country: FR(0.00)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:46.105.0.0/16, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:38:16 -0000 If other people were interested in creating such a desktop environement, I would be happy to team with them. :) On 21/04/2020 20:12, Polytropon wrote: Let's just imagine Wayland on FreeBSD + Enlightenment to become a FreeBSD-native (!) desktop environment with GUI integreation for OS configuration and control... Yes, I know, this can (partially) be done with Xfce, Gnome, KDE, Lxde, but more or less, that is fighting Linuxisms and still being stuck with stuff that has been abandoned in Linux world many years ago (think about HAL and DBus). The degree of incompatibility could be increasing if the modern development of desktop environments will concentrate on Linux as the target, and on FreeBSD, you can only get 3/4 of what's technically possible. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 11:31:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98EC82B0C41 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:31:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496dY963RLz485v for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:31:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1587555068; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=Pktoa4tYU3Pbw+oW3v0oyAS6AYA=; b=J1VA9VnvTsiVzQxDB5fw5yLtkDwg+ATWhc/WWSZ0SEqW7VgB4D3J921ROpV3JJnC IJBG2wl1kVZeG+CuRP+gIa1buHU8nyLKMCfjT0p6MDBxVgfoM+WIPM9oH6Ew2chg 4ZtzUEObuejMhIkhF2W2vjq7q9vHVcQXv9mfP4uks2+0BIos/7zN10OFkMpeeseJ H5yH1rd99Uy03xXew7uk7/fRLTLv/lGPFuP1HTOpTaJhUdRLEvEx0PNhez5Nk5Yi d4GGdw2bRDGN6ZqYO3jTJsqMRJhAgyfFYqrfc39w4N0FKtBk8O/LL5MJV8shfu8J NsgKcfkMQjwal/jUD+4kqg==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=F/kpiZpN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=cl8xLZFz6L8A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=DDA7Q1mdToU_dk2sHm4A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:53755] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 1D/B7-51190-CFA20AE5; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:31:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24224.11002.960241.607629@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:31:06 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200422070028.30dd2fb16ccae9b6d9cde901@sohara.org> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> <20200422070028.30dd2fb16ccae9b6d9cde901@sohara.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496dY963RLz485v X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=J1VA9Vnv; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.61 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; IP_SCORE(-1.51)[ip: (-8.99), ipnet: 69.168.97.0/24(0.72), asn: 36271(0.75), country: US(-0.05)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[78.97.168.69.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[78.97.168.69.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:31:10 -0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > > Oh, and is XWayland still a thing? Or the other way around? > > Yes to both, Xwayland is still a thing and run by default and you > can run Wayland as an X client. Am I not understanding. or does that sound slow and full of possible failure modes? Inquisitively, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 11:39:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EEF32B0FDD for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:39:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496dlG5QyHz48Mt for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:39:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6893210649 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:39:46 +0100 (BST) From: Arthur Chance Subject: Re: About wayland To: FreeBSD-Questions References: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> <2374cb33-48f6-4bac-54ca-ca8aedd4650f@list.199903.xyz> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:39:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2374cb33-48f6-4bac-54ca-ca8aedd4650f@list.199903.xyz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496dlG5QyHz48Mt X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@qeng-ho.org designates 217.155.128.241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@qeng-ho.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.155.128.240/29]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[qeng-ho.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.44)[ip: (-7.91), ipnet: 217.155.0.0/16(-3.95), asn: 13037(-0.27), country: GB(-0.07)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:217.155.0.0/16, country:GB]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:39:56 -0000 On 22/04/2020 01:22, Philip wrote: > Just curious, who is Wayland? a people name? I have a vague recollection it was named after Wayland the Smith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith). -- Fat Earther: One who believes the world is round but has put on too much weight round the middle. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 11:44:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250232B13A9 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:44:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c1000351758c.f35ff2d07084f76d168cfe1d9c3a8cd4@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496dr86fF8z48kM for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:44:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c1000351758c.f35ff2d07084f76d168cfe1d9c3a8cd4@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587555849; x=1590147849; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=5GyybcZwCDyBo1SB0ixOABCIy/oR6jv2JOl9kweyKvs=; b=ZJ+/wCgz7MVlvEtyT+IOd6F9vzhwG2KA5w7ANJffgDCZXYLHffTo7dbJwPX1OBdpLJr7+cnOGkN2LDbLm5m1nwiJ+ZNJSvzmOXudtnl9BUivI8o3nG2UVHkEBNy/5TiL5Vn1Fk3YpsUPt85E+1oRhQjG+f+r9mhwU7mS2oVRihU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDM1MTc1OGMuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.11]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:43:58 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:43:58 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jRDnI-000HRF-Po; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:43:56 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:43:56 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Robert Huff Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200422124356.5329c504e03524a59b536cc6@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <24224.11002.960241.607629@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> <20200422070028.30dd2fb16ccae9b6d9cde901@sohara.org> <24224.11002.960241.607629@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496dr86fF8z48kM X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=ZJ+/wCgz; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c1000351758c.f35ff2d07084f76d168cfe1d9c3a8cd4@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c1000351758c.f35ff2d07084f76d168cfe1d9c3a8cd4@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.968,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.22), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.32), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c1000351758c.f35ff2d07084f76d168cfe1d9c3a8cd4@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c1000351758c.f35ff2d07084f76d168cfe1d9c3a8cd4@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:44:10 -0000 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 07:31:06 -0400 Robert Huff wrote: > > Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > > > > Oh, and is XWayland still a thing? Or the other way around? > > > > Yes to both, Xwayland is still a thing and run by default and > > you can run Wayland as an X client. > > Am I not understanding. or does that sound slow and full of > possible failure modes? It does to me, but I know little to nothing of the innermost details. I've looked into Wayland a few times in fair detail and have yet to see a benefit. I know X is decried as a security horror story, yet active exploits seem curiously rare and it has always worked well for me. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 12:45:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D857D2B3D8A for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:45:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496gCT5rlWz4D42 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:45:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 2OovB1gVM1m3HVGfc9NET_.eo6To_iSaUSWbH2.Kw3tuq_iI0Lrbm87H2.63U34 zRJQgIT6jLnKi_mh_O.FiDXMZ9byEHCvno5ADTB33vMZFnoe6XFgIlGHyMpLMvsW0EaTouoW6Kdi aedAZPflz12hKKCgkoYWPiviiNV7cMe6_JyVwAqCcPl3zSRgRclwQqoNrUy0fgBI96_NQN0W0dT0 CvtkpvqzTJe_6fXpIAE3A_pUpQFI25bY1Xb8dvfLHPTJu9trdqKp5A34SvOXiCYtqCH1BJv.1b_q n9jwdK67xQ1JXFLlH8QCdgUxTvWc4cxSfJd_dZqATTjOoxYQ6Uah7hSFtadWw6NvO4DUIihDRNk4 E7ZSFgMZpdR2OlNmKaUx9U2YbKmTqss2WPBXZXgZbCf0pAHQc0lmrGgkBADYJfb97UWDbRPvqsNx vdffGPGb4m_6hkSraf3fITLojuHXVVcgqDfQUxcRNiEmVrRy3ctXAcQcA2isIAiRGB_OoGKmQ9hN eW48UFGSXwdmzMhxguA3SCcpBJxQvBVpi_GbiCDoEVxe_Cw8WT9xzI9olI.nJuiXigkDJJt3UMbo pW3U3Bi55GXvObk7Qz61Er9cKTYAnqHiqAJzdQaa7XWD3J2sACuAcb60d3piT9hEqTCb4Esaq0AV N3nePy9dOpIgMrqVvWbtLrHCrS9sCQD.flOPDdfXBCmXGxNDybwQ69MA3VjDXy81d79kwE8CH5dw 3FvPU0s9Tg_IkiyyaX2IIIBjbKWkJYRZn7cPPc.vK07xwuNc74yzu5MUql7jhIfOseDxYfznnwK3 SDZ6zqzqJ7NNKojV4ONIupFY.X22PkksmNI8tVXEPj9l2gvDEvS.uEGxL7SEUct4ZzswUi0f4I89 JMIwtImTgTTls36uW_whn6zEUaqvITSvj1DirZpsZf5j55zARRA1pXQxcskutJU8wm8s2.d9EHRj 6n_SRfqFowLYxBXvq8Fnorjx4voPaBswmbKJWsOBSuSWK2RLdDowpolrtdrFt9nXQgn5C.uYI7l2 QMWJtj_mjjCkshCry5oICNLI7D5BsZYHVcFnL1IHBJWxIRZjDeaU_hGqHqItNhI_KyLl47gt_Cw7 5oyVUcK6PrPzWONrhHUXmMvRhPfoMGyv8_.Lu10IONQAP3_CN4VBLS5fxqfnCZ4sqHzbUlrqC1Hj hy6ZzvqAglQfoLF5oGVhnfj.5XyXqnJgFRrcqXFme834Asm2rFm8MkyXu1giBNKNzWrc.Was2EjC BCR2ZgqBCs_0KWdOWEXMSwKBaVLevBv.whh2gE0CsQhwVJGL.h5VR0lWdKjzvQJpZtTJ3rtcXvJD 4ms.tPEzzOwTo8EyVK2C08KOvGmzfbCdck63uYyrahbRYI_UaeA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:45:56 +0000 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:45:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: FreeBSD-Questions , Arthur Chance Message-ID: <1752452512.854228.1587559555782@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> <2374cb33-48f6-4bac-54ca-ca8aedd4650f@list.199903.xyz> Subject: Re: About wayland MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15739 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; ) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/83.0.4086.0 Safari/537.36 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496gCT5rlWz4D42 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.81 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.84)[-0.839,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.973,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[200.184.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.13), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.15), asn: 36646(0.92), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[200.184.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:45:58 -0000 I'm just throwing this out there..... It's created under the MIT license. In Massachusetts, there are two adjoining towns.... Wayland and Weston....= =C2=A0 Wayland is the infrastructure and Weston is the compositor. Could be? Paul On Wednesday, April 22, 2020, 7:40:04 AM EDT, Arthur Chance wrote: =20 =20 On 22/04/2020 01:22, Philip wrote: > Just curious, who is Wayland? a people name? I have a vague recollection it was named after Wayland the Smith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith). --=20 Fat Earther: One who believes the world is round but has put on too much weight round the middle. _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 15:00:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B472B723B for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:00:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from news@mips.inka.de) Received: from mail.inka.de (mail.inka.de [IPv6:2a04:c9c7:0:1073:217:a4ff:fe3b:e77c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496kBQ28cDz4MJ7 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:00:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from news@mips.inka.de) Received: from mips.inka.de (news@[127.0.0.1]) by mail.inka.de with uucp (rmailwrap 0.5) id 1jRGqx-00032s-It; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:59:55 +0200 Received: from lorvorc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lorvorc.mips.inka.de (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 03MEtg0F071332 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:55:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from news@lorvorc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from news@localhost) by lorvorc.mips.inka.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03MEtgTr071331 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:55:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from news) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Christian Weisgerber Newsgroups: list.freebsd.questions Subject: Re: find(1) removes as it should a directory, but after this it complains about Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:55:42 -0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20200420081627.GA30229@sh4-5.1blu.de> User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (FreeBSD) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496kBQ28cDz4MJ7 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of news@mips.inka.de has no SPF policy when checking 2a04:c9c7:0:1073:217:a4ff:fe3b:e77c) smtp.mailfrom=news@mips.inka.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.990,0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.998,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[inka.de]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[naddy@mips.inka.de,news@mips.inka.de]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:202113, ipnet:2a04:c9c7::/32, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[naddy@mips.inka.de,news@mips.inka.de]; IP_SCORE(0.44)[ip: (1.17), ipnet: 2a04:c9c7::/32(0.59), asn: 202113(0.47), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:00:18 -0000 On 2020-04-20, Matthias Apitz wrote: > I've stumbled over something with find(1) which I would call a bug: > > $ mkdir foo > $ find foo -type d -execdir rm -rv {} \; > foo > find: foo: No such file or directory find(1)... * sees the directory entry "foo"; * evalutes the expression for it, which as a side effect executes an action; * tries to recurse into "foo", since it is a directory. That's perfectly reasonable. find(1) can't know that the action removed the directory. If your exec removes a directory, you should tell find(1) to not recurse into it: $ find foo -type d -prune -execdir rm -rv {} \; -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 15:42:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410C82B7F1E for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:42:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) Received: from smtp.rcn.com (smtp.rcn.com [69.168.97.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496l7k1BZpz4PlP for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:42:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberthuff@rcn.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; d=rcn.com; s=20180516; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@rcn.com; t=1587570176; h=From:Subject:Date:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=/oUoYlQ7MpowAq92K45Fwvagk2c=; b=sAOPTSvz4ocBQ+jj70I0dRF4VYtuKQ4iORo13FQk8kfV8QUlkOzFhZjwp+86mRyL 2b9hCFq9v18P/oFVZ1xWfysT6268lnHy5qhfa51BBzqWDRWP5r3/guYybTf7H1sQ +Py+/C9So/Inw2EcGTFmSIQqqaqBxeEVsmKBO4mR/Mq280z4pzRdrvjtXINqxbAM ETLx4XpOKrHA/EvVVtRA6LXxJnvDBfdhtmoiUNK3x8jupDXUlbo+C2lGxiiRc5Zl EdpJ6zVy9oEbZapRqQ5xRMF7OM2qHAmQoMw7kGf3cmXQw4+HybioeKijO1ZvpfQt OQBdDC0ly1ZJwk4Xw7NxQQ==; X_CMAE_Category: , , X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Z5uS40ZA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:117 a=9TgA2UwI6Wy+6BV4wQM/cQ==:17 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=XRQyMpdBKAEA:10 a=cl8xLZFz6L8A:10 a=48faUk6PgeAA:10 a=mm8AfJLWCTzSKdhgm_oA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 X-CM-Score: 0 X-Scanned-by: Cloudmark Authority Engine X-Authed-Username: cm9iZXJ0aHVmZkByY24uY29t Received: from [209.6.230.48] ([209.6.230.48:65061] helo=jerusalem.litteratus.org.litteratus.org) by smtp.rcn.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 3.6.25.56547 r(Core:3.6.25.0)) with ESMTPSA (cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384) id 7E/BE-10869-00660AE5; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:42:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <24224.26111.448437.531092@jerusalem.litteratus.org> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:42:55 -0400 From: Robert Huff To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Robert Huff , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200422124356.5329c504e03524a59b536cc6@sohara.org> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> <20200422070028.30dd2fb16ccae9b6d9cde901@sohara.org> <24224.11002.960241.607629@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422124356.5329c504e03524a59b536cc6@sohara.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496l7k1BZpz4PlP X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=rcn.com header.s=20180516 header.b=sAOPTSvz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=rcn.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of roberthuff@rcn.com designates 69.168.97.78 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roberthuff@rcn.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rcn.com:s=20180516]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:69.168.97.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.52)[ip: (-9.00), ipnet: 69.168.97.0/24(0.71), asn: 36271(0.74), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[rcn.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rcn.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rcn.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[78.97.168.69.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36271, ipnet:69.168.97.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[78.97.168.69.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:42:59 -0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > > Am I not understanding. or does that sound slow and full of > > possible failure modes? > > It does to me, but I know little to nothing of the innermost > details. I've looked into Wayland a few times in fair detail and > have yet to see a benefit. I know X is decried as a security horror > story, yet active exploits seem curiously rare and it has always > worked well for me. I generally hear three main criticisms: 1) Full of known/possible exploits and security holes 2) Based on 1980s concepts and hardware (which affects what code is written and how) 3) "It just grew." (Which contributes to (1).) Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 16:18:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5AE2B91D4 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:18:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100035eba13.e91c7ec82d0774a6ecb08e0d3bf39f88@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496lwB2gGRz4S5g for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:18:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100035eba13.e91c7ec82d0774a6ecb08e0d3bf39f88@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587572282; x=1590164282; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=Y0tim9vJBaoBTNpCale+cGmUWPRgL2/VL/t3YIDEvU0=; b=AQutoSY/2Bq7bd5+/myBpInnihGLDJEDod0LVILVVvH/Eh+Fad2N1hMt8eyxR/t8FUxafFOn6DsaS5dV9m0Hyi35cfHp9UmqY9fBjZitVcjgp2cG8WaWLlCh9+ln70nAvSUBaiFdgyjdcLSgmDRtlL7fQBsvYGyg2QT4CKvJX3A= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDM1ZWJhMTMuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.12]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:17:57 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:17:53 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jRI4N-000IEk-JX; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:17:51 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:17:51 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Robert Huff Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200422171751.e85396afb993a0c61a248565@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <24224.26111.448437.531092@jerusalem.litteratus.org> References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> <20200422070028.30dd2fb16ccae9b6d9cde901@sohara.org> <24224.11002.960241.607629@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422124356.5329c504e03524a59b536cc6@sohara.org> <24224.26111.448437.531092@jerusalem.litteratus.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496lwB2gGRz4S5g X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=AQutoSY/; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100035eba13.e91c7ec82d0774a6ecb08e0d3bf39f88@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100035eba13.e91c7ec82d0774a6ecb08e0d3bf39f88@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.974,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.22), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.32), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100035eba13.e91c7ec82d0774a6ecb08e0d3bf39f88@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100035eba13.e91c7ec82d0774a6ecb08e0d3bf39f88@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:18:03 -0000 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 11:42:55 -0400 Robert Huff wrote: > > Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > > > > Am I not understanding. or does that sound slow and full of > > > possible failure modes? > > > > It does to me, but I know little to nothing of the innermost > > details. I've looked into Wayland a few times in fair detail and > > have yet to see a benefit. I know X is decried as a security horror > > story, yet active exploits seem curiously rare and it has always > > worked well for me. > > I generally hear three main criticisms: > 1) Full of known/possible exploits and security holes Which never seem to actually cause problems, usually because they're a bit like the cluttered desk and safe with post-it that would be a security problem were they not inside an access controlled area with tight security. > 2) Based on 1980s concepts and hardware (which affects what code > is written and how) Hmm unix is based on 1970s concepts and 1960s hardware, it seems to have aged well. Like X it has accumulated some (nearly) obsolete layers like the incredible range of dumb terminal (mis)designs that curses can cope with and the enormous termcap/terminfo database of capabilities and quirks that drives it. I've seen complaints about the baggage of 1980s style graphics primitives (stippled polygon fills etc.) and fonts which are valid I suppose but it doesn't seem to have got in the way of adding GPU supported acceleration or anti-aliased outline fonts. > 3) "It just grew." (Which contributes to (1).) That I'd have to disagree with, the gap betweem X11Rn and X11Rn+1 was always long and seemed to involve considerable care and there has never been an X12 (despite getting to X11 between 1984 and 1987). -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 16:55:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79612B9F2E for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:55:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.185.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496mlc5Cjbz4V5w for ; 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Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:55:39 +0000 Received: by smtp432.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a990dbe8240b2091a464caf680c5f22e; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:55:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-f45.google.com with SMTP id 7so2651680pjo.0 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:55:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYOvmclTnUsKlZN8TnSOBNLQVRl1T3jSvYDVnGyLeKTXrTNugw9 zh9tks1xmt03BrTQsNNqoYro8wGGnyLkxYNyE2U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKQFrDSc8rGKAUSTerizU1WlzdbX6GFaDimtCXhXbANpaPR8BOBUqZ4PaomB1dXAh4rZMhb6IDjkXI5RCc1f64= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8bc1:: with SMTP id r1mr26625365plo.48.1587574534758; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:55:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> <2374cb33-48f6-4bac-54ca-ca8aedd4650f@list.199903.xyz> In-Reply-To: <2374cb33-48f6-4bac-54ca-ca8aedd4650f@list.199903.xyz> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:55:17 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: About wayland To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; 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IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.65), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.15), asn: 36646(0.92), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[147.185.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[147.185.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:55:41 -0000 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 01:22, Philip wrote: > > Just curious, who is Wayland? a people name? http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Wayland-Beyond-X-1432046.html "H=C3=B8gsberg had the inspiration for Wayland while driving through the town of Wayland in Massachusetts, which gave the display server its name." --=20 Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 18:40:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F59C2BD3BD for ; 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RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[78.97.168.69.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:40:01 -0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > > 2) Based on 1980s concepts and hardware (which affects what code > > is written and how) > > Hmm unix is based on 1970s concepts and 1960s hardware, Is it? I'll leave this to people with deeper knowledge, but I get the impression a _lot_ has changed - and not just under the hood - over the last thirty years. > > 3) "It just grew." (Which contributes to (1).) > > That I'd have to disagree with, the gap betweem X11Rn and X11Rn+1 > was always long and seemed to involve considerable care and there has never > been an X12 (despite getting to X11 between 1984 and 1987). The comparison that leapt to mind was to GCC, and its replacement with LLVM. I am not a compiler guru ... but I have heard those who are muttering in eldritch tongues about minor decisions made long ago that have become irreversibly embedded and block non-trivial improvements to speed and/or accuracy. Now LLVM _may_ be following a similar path - but there seems to be a vigorous effort to avoid that where possible. Respectfully, Robert Huff From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 22:14:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D2FB2C4601; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:14:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x142.google.com (mail-il1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496vqh1lV0z43dT; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:14:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x142.google.com with SMTP id i16so3602283ils.12; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:14:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jE+dL3RlSoJvp/TDoMxbEI5Yvzgoq0rBAxuV6f6p4IY=; b=B2WW76jbR6Vb4/zdEoJe6Sscew/uA1mIscqllSfqmiA1hsPmA7SlZNPLV6eA0D2/sD ttLXEK4E8dPzINiQouNQ28zbkEbhHygJQVgIm44zpPdLQkyfWNnd0S08OAmfLHhxg+72 EfiwFdnmaNU+TYLhl+Vxn//FT93e/Dc+nkn63YWA8gPND73tXjjZlXfhh0aBEbjB7RUJ 6+i1NPAeFKrmdqF9Y2G1QsxCbFlOzvUPENI7FV6YIRunm1tZ9boJDkCcuRyy9NFkkv6Z 0F56va7GbRtAA8O5Uvl+YjQgAwrumubJQOtuFtYFGRXhvJOP/e9u/Nh0WlxjyHpIfGAA yzvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jE+dL3RlSoJvp/TDoMxbEI5Yvzgoq0rBAxuV6f6p4IY=; b=JTVOnIBgoEHMPVC5GfIysc+kLEaAaeM5smdVTIeY0rPPrgz6lolckYkYXA7H9hOm6j ZP9l5ggFHRv3UjKwUCSiXTxm1IoWdKy19tizE6xkqfo5CRdpT2oeKPOEbv2xqL27sBZ4 HR0Zi7JvEjgcfOZbxmWkuq8FCyEwIQDx1wrxGwKq2seS4hgnLyyGN3qE79SiX1nPvJ11 nxtC0PgDlLass5HX/OUxhLyBAl2NbEDHrWEg9SMvYPNynJ0KSj5q6BI53KRYKpsTB9Sc U/gDQtFPdOPG8lSCy7ywokmX7fAmbzkKtqPfIoZ+uVPd8RKDWPuiTNil0gsIrFcZZArB JBgA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua70vDCIO4TrlLAYCdjgCslkG52dS22Xjef2MqT0Z4u4+ZzLfrX I/9G5I5u/72E+U0DKe9KQ1aSg94FD6eRoXnIINUgBeFN0+g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLbh7N9uVa/NCI8pUZLPYpH3ozkBflagZGNz5buAmxrDUbQMYcp5NSBm5U4cVpdz53Hkn2182SfBouSmZX9WYY= X-Received: by 2002:a92:ce08:: with SMTP id b8mr619098ilo.69.1587593678696; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:14:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6c7abdcf-aeef-4af4-b8f4-9d7fd0e45cf0@localhost> <7fba319c-c012-8893-3ce0-e2a166c38d2d@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: From: Frederic Chardon Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:14:26 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Jan Beich Cc: Niclas Zeising , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496vqh1lV0z43dT X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:14:40 -0000 Le mer. 22 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 16:51, Jan Beich a =C3=A9c= rit : > > Frederic Chardon writes: > > > Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 23:06, Jan Beich a =C3= =A9crit : > > > >> > >> Frederic Chardon writes: > >> > >> > > >> > The trace shows usage of llvmpipe after the failed ioctl on > >> > /dev/dri/card0, so as I understand the lack of hardware acceleration > >> > concerns only Xwayland, whereas wayland itself is accelerated ? > >> > >> Yep. Check which ioctls fail then try to reproduce outside of Mesa or > >> hardcode the result. Overriding PCI ID via INTEL_DEVID_OVERRIDE is > >> unlikely to help e.g., > > > > All below failure occurs only in xwayland, X11 and wayland succeed. > > > > The first failure is with I915_PARAM_CHIPSET_ID. When I hardcode the > > correct ID I get a failure with I915_PARAM_HAS_RELAXED_DATA. When I > > force the result to be true (as with X11 and Wayland), the ioctl > > DRM_I915_GEM_EXECBUFFER2_WR fails with errno EPERM. > > Thanks for investigating. Maybe either DRM_AUTH or DRM_RENDER_ALLOW fails= . > Does setuid bit on Xwayland binary help? Yes, hardware acceleration works. eglinfo still complain about invalid 0xffffffff PCI ID though > Does disabling render node help > e.g., chmod 0000 /dev/dri/renderD128 ? No What helps however is to mount the different linux filesystems after i915kms is loaded. eg I added "late" keyword to fstab as below devfs /compat/linux/dev devfs rw,late 0 0 fdesc /compat/linux/dev/fd fdescfs rw,late,linrdlnk 0 0 linproc /compat/linux/proc linprocfs rw,late 0 0 linsys /compat/linux/sys linsysfs rw,late 0 0 without the late keyword, acceleration works if devfs alone is mounted. any other fs (with or without devfs) makes Xwayland use software rendering. As with setuid Xwayland, eglinfo complains about invalid PCI ID. > > Can you check major number is the same for primary and render nodes? > Also check if render node device type is correct in case something > like https://github.com/intel/libva/pull/292 affects Mesa. > > $ ls -lL /dev/dri > total 0 > crw-rw---- 1 root video 0x25b Apr 22 13:04 card0 > crw-rw---- 1 root video 0x2db Apr 22 13:04 renderD128 > > # Based on major() from /usr/include/sys/types.h > $ echo $(( (((0x25b >> 32) & 0xffffff00) | ((0x25b >> 8) & 0xff)) )) > 2 > $ echo $(( (((0x2db >> 32) & 0xffffff00) | ((0x2db >> 8) & 0xff)) )) > 2 > > # Based on drmGetMinorBase() from graphics/libdrm > $ echo $(( 0x2db & 0x80 )) > 128 In my case card0 has major 0 and renderD128 major 1 Bit 0x80 is sometimes set, sometimes not, but I couln't find a pattern (it doesn't seem to affect whether hardware rendering is used or not) > > Should I open an issue on drm-kms github? Or it is more likely a > > problem on mesa side? > > In kms-drm but before that try pending updates just in case: > > https://github.com/FreeBSDDesktop/kms-drm/pull/217 > https://github.com/FreeBSDDesktop/kms-drm/pull/221 # maybe unstable No impact, hardware acceleration is enabled or not solely based on the mounting of linuxulator pseudofs. > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D235570 > https://github.com/myfreeweb/freebsd-ports-dank/tree/lite/graphics/mesa-d= ev > > > >> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-x11/2019-January/022551.ht= ml > >> > >> If you still have no clue try playing with sysctls under compat.linuxk= pi > >> via /boot/loader.conf. > > > > Any hints which ones are worth a try? How did you solve your issue (as > > it seems to be pretty similar). > > Disappeared on its own. In bug 241821 for some time I could reliably > reproduce but not anymore. The issue seems to be vaguely related to the > order hardware is initialized during boot. Unfortunately, bug 241821 > didn't document "ls -lL /dev/dri" output but on the mailing list > /dev/dri/renderD128 didn't have 0x80 bit set. Thanks Jan! From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 22:15:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17972C4706 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:15:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@jdev.sent.com) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496vrT6kjMz43lm for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:15:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@jdev.sent.com) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6F264C for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap36 ([10.202.2.86]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:15:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sent.com; h= mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=rkRXTgtQbl3YfCbvEMqxEPr/Kr+bPV8SNbsKxmo8+5c=; b=AEKHMe/U HvEjGJqbXNiXDZNLM7sflP0ZGA9AtRg9lEH/F4fHgg13pZ4DLgvySUkv20Jx4ub2 4wyiLfhEek4l5WWe6iQgJhAJ4+XfAq/mgwB0od+L70PBHK5gxAfOrQJwj4J3rBm9 5Ao+emNmj5SF9yUJMA8odbSwTJbkP8w+iEXYQINVJplYp8dpEClv0rLIlCk9DkAO LDT612RbS9oLfvrB5PxHt33vf07PJZ2hoL53/MnqMACyqUEWsb7zrkLyP2mFFswI D2pvTjdb3Xa60w0GJ/tnS/xP4xzeTahs1QO3iF5+M0ikVkHR/etDL0puNKSMyMBC Vv0YJBg8OAe1gQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=rkRXTgtQbl3YfCbvEMqxEPr/Kr+bP V8SNbsKxmo8+5c=; b=Sc9Oy6bCaQVi+/hbx4M9yNZpi0CpnUBX1BSM7XNbY9IO0 8FMoz8uLsrg3VqrWC8RdGZ1btMeOkU1XpvOoK6/c/8Uas/tvD5+vQblgspq4UFku qxI2wkJKb3/ucKTg3RtcSQu6jplVHZ5U1UsAKV9I/cCS+e1gHs3mTw4mSekgtWI+ h+ssc9y/Hgchs2YiMN/3zVzcxlCNZBZ/2saPgbbWaEiVhbJZUn6F+OJZzrnYZBHV aAwBgEt+b5A3m9/yECk4bsvXOiyWTsFwf72eHbj+83cQuOfn3blw94QR/xozwRtr q1lGh5G4qWugT3xL92PLHL+xwAjgEMg14+hBsQJdQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrgeekgddtiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkfffhvffutgesrgdtreerre ertdenucfhrhhomheplfhorhgurghnuceofhhrvggvsghsugesjhguvghvrdhsvghnthdr tghomheqnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epfhhrvggvsghsugesjhguvghvrdhsvghnthdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id A99DA1880062; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:15:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-351-g9981f4f-fmstable-20200421v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:14:59 -0700 From: Jordan To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496vrT6kjMz43lm X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sent.com header.s=fm3 header.b=AEKHMe/U; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=Sc9Oy6bC; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sent.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@jdev.sent.com designates 64.147.123.24 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@jdev.sent.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sent.com:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.123.24]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(-3.49)[ip: (-9.82), ipnet: 64.147.123.0/24(-4.92), asn: 11403(-2.69), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sent.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sent.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[24.123.147.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_WWW(0.50)[] Content-Type: text/plain X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:15:22 -0000 I need PDF software that can add pages, remove pages, extract pages and redact. All of the PDF ports I have found are simply viewers and don't allow manipulations of the PDF in a single packaged GUI application. I work with hundreds of PDFs each day so I cannot work within a CLI to manipulate the pages. I do a lot of extracting of pages into a new PDF by dragging and dropping pages from PDF software to a GUI file manager such as Thunar. Any suggestions that you use or have heard that works with FreeBSD? Thank you in advance. -- Jordan From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 22:21:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421952C4A29 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:21:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496vzs0202z4418 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:21:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id w4so4261914ioc.6 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:21:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+OhOaZ6yKn1fL9UlRWEc1qIl0G8iwTwsyc9gk/luYq0=; b=Xoq+LTTitxylpLwOqnCQpMFPqsbK9GWgX3vpUxu8ByA3v4RSzH8uxRxAJxcKnciv9z Az4bjZsPkGjJ/ec+ld8ux2O2zMJHjffqD/aurn83NXXKVsS/wjcPA+KamZg4XhCq5/Ev +aqLy1UIhAwQ0fdgeBNZEDshd01XmPo6atxoxu6IBovj7jXXIb6ToS4f1Kg1WYXN6C6/ cTcI5ZT66jMk3vW7d15HjEZajKcQZrt8j5tTpzVYapVtDGsxjaItNUz17VMwqunlyZ62 cLBZfrm4y2b4ElqQwpOh88eddf0/cxHsC/dlDfg+ya4Xb5n3kBDWfOH2vK2hD5B3fe3m DyPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+OhOaZ6yKn1fL9UlRWEc1qIl0G8iwTwsyc9gk/luYq0=; b=AvuYRfJgnuHdiR+FIS0U/df9EwxaGbtt/r4ea40QpYXYcwiB0LN/gaXzNGGxKPi9EB +ALNkNeXF0yB7BbTpNlFrz4arNTpbpvBRcI4dL0zvUAJM58F0Wc5DjMk4CtI8iclic4N JBiDPzmwgNsUOUcMqCm+nfaUznLrWdohCNpvHoNpBlzXyggUknqNAcv2girjmBccfy5j saMZFQ0fDPdG3/jlpoihoeI0VBv8n25hoWNcLgCQUVHOcMEQlBxUlQL912fUCrzNyNUN RxG7Lxl8Y3oLSGN40rFa7hvcdJ1bbT2xKeBCdBOg5aWYrPWmBV2CT1FkZbF+pf+bakrp mhSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYUdT8Ssn6yd8tAoGMZekvVFpiE/qNhrRQ/wc0NwSVola/sBiYc jWYMzksMbt8HiVNkH+3Fnu6ZBK0QmQ2XBhE4e+jPbFS6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKSH1KXp6aATf6Gx1Us2TthVWobQTiu9gfpvrFy6lg24MPrN0Gsuias0JuyxUmSsqFXQI111egjgiR32Z+wepA= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:7d0c:: with SMTP id c12mr919100ioq.83.1587594103702; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:21:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> In-Reply-To: <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 18:21:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: Robert Huff , Polytropon , FreeBSD , "@lbutlr" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496vzs0202z4418 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Xoq+LTTi; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-5.51), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.3.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:21:46 -0000 On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 10:33 PM Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 01:30:07PM -0400, Robert Huff wrote: > > Also: if I understand the conversation, Wayland works OK when > > client and server are the same machine, but not over a network? > > I thought I read that Wayland considers access over the network to be a > solved problem without having to build it into the lowest levels of the > graphics stack. Remote Desktop, VNC, etc., all give network access. What > you miss is intermingling of windows from several machines. But is that > such a common use case that it should be designed for from the start? > > That was my memory, anyway. Do I remember correctly, anyone useful? > Unless I am wrong if I do: xhosts + sudo su - other user setenv DISPLAY :0.0 xterm The new xterm is using the network stack. Since it is quiet common for people to separate different types of usage into different accounts (ex. I have one account for non-programming stuff and an other one for programming and normally login into my non-programming account and sudo over to the programming one to work on GUI apps). Thus if it is not a solved problem this is a major show stopper and as if obvious from the above command sequence a remote desktop client (regardless of protocol) will not cut it. > Oh, and is XWayland still a thing? Or the other way around? > -- > Kevin P. Neal http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ > 'Concerns about "rights" and "ownership" of domains are > inappropriate. > It is appropriate to be concerned about "responsibilities" and "service" > to the community.' -- RFC 1591, page 4: March 1994 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 22:25:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB99F2C4B9C for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:25:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496w4L5jmfz44JN for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:25:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([188.102.109.75]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MTRIi-1jdS5P2xy8-00To8p; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:25:31 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:25:30 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Jordan Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options Message-Id: <20200423002530.87cf0d91.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> References: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vsL9OFXf6v7pIADrqjNhYqCWGRxx7erLDeigEWoXqYAPWibmuQh cK6EEPiMT8qXDqpenEvKKh24fvDM21OWtFktmoD0qMNmzEGIF1xJ9MRwJcQRhUIb1uqJqwi Qi/LQWJ+jRPiSsXBO0Tp+9JlPdxME+RcY55A56E2FMKKWdpXaTicaI1Lnx2NGptucO2EpAr 8D3gzA6tNMr3BjE4fJoiQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:rn2HxvOr338=:hb/2BDHIyqlnFX29arKRaS ajQHSNJ5Ag3RVLdHQ6ayo0mJT3F/ld+MqpDqkmzxXIHEei8pdTqRhSQEX430vlkprjVkfdYCX n+N3lWmu1kGSGKgbQsVFVCKTXFYQ5F3rt3Lm17KtnxZfmYrIl3kUlfWBr+nGJju3lPgYwjy8V iDxwh4pw6Ia26Wu5jCNtXIUpdvaq5ZFn7qRLQdqdqsfdfB2t9CHLW4JNV1n4u0e/QkMSVm5Ko C6oL1X+bC4tHbcq24xy1qnu+iKaz0zzachlSm0o7lSLmr3rX6lxhHcHvOGRQb02JItGU0qfbD NaSJ2ffuI+j98RNlfcF2SNKQQnUyLf5qPJ9weRAJJPbahyicvUJZ8+Pc65npAOuAWwKkvF5Lw 4mKalAj+RXagDJ5sQwi4bcs98niQ9LiXweuwRK19klr7KgmnPDQY7Qx5Cw8pFE2JCn3uvRB0O +sPB6g6TiRpqZ/VtG9ETjdmmGJxumNUOADrnLocq6s4vXc4M/CxHGcQoYeTqeSRsbHohgLm3F PW935vKXOmjjM1EJwmIvZJhyHKRW9Q/CnbP5AYB1K9GzOP01B/wwpJ+j+XpYPujB+oXcOaXPP d3/ycMD00LKBDvemMEqdKwFNx8qqqPPLu1jMwyRRv6ZXWJwOHHBV3HAtgy9sJywvNptKNYF3e 03xvqXNuk2x9R3UPDNkvSJizKKZUpiH2JtwFy1s5vQRxxA0lXAhoT1ri+x8ZoR+pvLQd1jwLR suMbcl4bCcBfU26rsmoVHSthOdtJp1d1Dsv8LWge/3nVvZ4mjukSmfNgWy9pHYJi6uQ5FU9bE fEsKAac0y9kiyxaqZgmCMXkVs3DVyYff7rpl1eIxKM8GrOYWpOcgW+8yjRdwpxwdi+awwfb X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496w4L5jmfz44JN X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.40 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[75.109.102.188.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.78)[0.780,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.993,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.23)[ip: (0.30), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.21), asn: 8560(2.07), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:25:40 -0000 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:14:59 -0700, Jordan wrote: > I need PDF software that can add pages, remove pages, extract pages > and redact. With "redact", you're refering to PDF annotations? > All of the PDF ports I have found are simply viewers and don't allow > manipulations of the PDF in a single packaged GUI application. I work > with hundreds of PDFs each day so I cannot work within a CLI to > manipulate the pages. I'd say the exact opposite is the case: If you're going to deal with a lot of files, using CLI tools to automate those tasks usually is the more convenient way - instead of doing everything manually in linear time. :-) But this of course depends on many parameters, such as if the kind of manipulation always is "one of a kind" or can be somehow standardized... > I do a lot of extracting of pages into a new PDF by dragging and > dropping pages from PDF software to a GUI file manager such as > Thunar. This can easily be done with the GUI file manager of your choice plus pdftk. Page preview support is present already in tools like Thunar. > Any suggestions that you use or have heard that works with FreeBSD? Tools like LibreOffice (and surely also OpenOffice) can directly open and manipulate PDF files. Gimp also has support for this format. For CLI operations, pdftk and ImageMagick are versatile tools that can be combined with GUI tools as well as used for batch operations. Is this a starting point for you? -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... 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dkim=pass header.d=gla.onmicrosoft.com header.s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com header.b=CZ3qFcOb; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk has no SPF policy when checking 130.209.16.102) smtp.mailfrom=Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.88 / 15.00]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[102.16.209.130.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; IP_SCORE(-0.99)[ipnet: 130.209.0.0/16(-4.52), asn: 786(-0.36), country: GB(-0.07)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[glasgow.ac.uk]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[102.16.209.130.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.11.2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; URIBL_PBL(0.01)[pdflabs.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:786, ipnet:130.209.0.0/16, country:GB]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[i=1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:36:02 -0000 Greetings. On 22 Apr 2020, at 23:14, Jordan wrote: > Any suggestions that you use or have heard that works with FreeBSD? I have gathered a few links here, with (it sounds) similar goals in mind, but each time round this loop I've managed to solve my immediate problems without investigating what I've found too rigorously. Also, when doing this I've been primarily working on macOS. Bearing all that in mind, however, my notes are below. _Just_ before sending this message, Polytropon's message appeared on-list. They queried your statement that > I work > with hundreds of PDFs each day so I cannot work within a CLI to > manipulate the pages. I think that, in drafting my answer, I'd automatically misread what you said as 'so I cannot work _without_ a CLI to manipulate the images'. Echoing Polytropon, what tools are useful of course depends on just what you need to do, but whilst acknowledging that I may be answering a question you didn't ask, my notes below focus on programmatic manipulation of PDFs. Good luck, Norman There is a Python library called [pikepdf](https://github.com/pikepdf/pikepdf). It looks promising, but I had a little trouble building it -- I gave up before trying very hard, though. This tools compares itself (favourably, of course) to PyPDF2, which seems to be the conventional suggestion. However it seems to install happily enough as a python package (via venv/pip). Then: from pikepdf import Pdf import glob pdf = Pdf.new() for file in glob.glob('part?.pdf'): src = Pdf.open(file) pdf.pages.extend(src.pages) pdf.save('allparts.pdf') [pdftk](https://www.pdflabs.com/tools/pdftk-server/) is a ‘toolkit’ (not sure just what this means in this context), but it includes a [command-line interface](https://www.pdflabs.com/docs/pdftk-cli-examples/) which includes some useful examples such as % pdftk a.pdf b.pdf cat output ab.pdf This also looks a bit tricky to build from scratch. -- Norman Gray : http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/it/ Research IT Coordinator : School of Physics and Astronomy // My current template week for IT tasks is: Monday, Tuesday, and Friday From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 22:50:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1C82C5300 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:50:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@jdev.sent.com) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496wcy2g2kz45Cj for ; 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FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_WWW(0.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 22:50:27 -0000 Hi Polytropon, Thank you for the response. I agree, manually manipulating PDFs with a GUI is not very efficient, however, the work I do cannot be automated (atleast I haven't found a way). On a PDF I may have to extract out pages 3, 5 and 14 into a new 3 page PDF because I only need the data from pages 3, 5 and 14. The very next PDF file I work on I may need to extract out 20 pages, all in a row, from pages 20 to 40. The next PDF file I may need the first and last page. There is absolutely no common denominator from these three PDF's and the only thing common is that I need to extract pages. In other words, I cannot write a script or use CLI to know ahead of time what needs to be done, because it takes my eyes to visually see the pages and to know what pages I need extracted. I cannot use grep or any text searching function on these PDFs because on one PDF I may need certain pages that contain words that have absolutely nothing to do with the pages I need on the next PDF I work on. So, very unfortunately, this is a very manual job and requires human beings (again, from my knowledge of CLI, scripting, etc). Using CLI would require me to visually look with my eyes a PDF file in a GUI situation and then turn around, open a console, type in a command to extract out a list of specific pages I need to then have to turn around and move that newly created PDF file to a difference location that may be nested 30 folders deep (and won't be consistent location as the next PDF I work within). It is easier to visually click, hold CTRL to continue highlighting pages and then right click, extract (which creates a new PDF) and then drag and drop the new PDF pages into a GUI file manager (such as Thunar) to create the new PDF. I don't see how CLI tools will work with the above example workflows although I am all ears to hearing others opinions. I know "professional" PDF software such as Adobe Acrobat Pro works but it is only compatible with Windows (and maybe GNU/Linux). I found another proprietary PDF Professional software but it is only available for Windows, Mac and GNU/Linux. I am on a quest to find something for FreeBSD as I believe it to be superior OS than the aforementioned. -- Jordan On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Polytropon wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:14:59 -0700, Jordan wrote: > > I need PDF software that can add pages, remove pages, extract pages > > and redact. > > With "redact", you're refering to PDF annotations? > > > > > All of the PDF ports I have found are simply viewers and don't allow > > manipulations of the PDF in a single packaged GUI application. I work > > with hundreds of PDFs each day so I cannot work within a CLI to > > manipulate the pages. > > I'd say the exact opposite is the case: If you're going to deal with > a lot of files, using CLI tools to automate those tasks usually is > the more convenient way - instead of doing everything manually in > linear time. :-) But this of course depends on many parameters, such > as if the kind of manipulation always is "one of a kind" or can be > somehow standardized... > > > > > I do a lot of extracting of pages into a new PDF by dragging and > > dropping pages from PDF software to a GUI file manager such as > > Thunar. > > This can easily be done with the GUI file manager of your choice > plus pdftk. Page preview support is present already in tools like > Thunar. > > > > > Any suggestions that you use or have heard that works with FreeBSD? > > Tools like LibreOffice (and surely also OpenOffice) can directly > open and manipulate PDF files. Gimp also has support for this > format. For CLI operations, pdftk and ImageMagick are versatile > tools that can be combined with GUI tools as well as used for > batch operations. > > Is this a starting point for you? > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 23:16:23 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBFB2C5D61 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 23:16:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496xBt3kbDz46cK for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 23:16:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([188.102.109.75]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M7JvQ-1jZ5hD0px6-007iTw; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 01:16:15 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 01:16:14 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Jordan Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Polytropon Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options Message-Id: <20200423011614.b3bff716.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> <20200423002530.87cf0d91.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:iyZk67MuzpalFJYNu2O6AHA6UtNiUP1dwQCdj+5lUeHJ/E8kQgj vpxZtKy2xKepX1Ha7XVX5P6tEADM9qUPS9tw8vQcLjlbofv3NGdvvLQkSA8zwaj1L6ZgPG9 hPzXuUo72liuxTnoP+y3ZKdTe1Qv9xe3uM83wZI0t6zMXikqttuwpK0zV0fv/rDY1Kp2Nnb 2iodJ/uIJUuGtqudPQuBg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Ig6oYSvQUME=:ahMnPbTz9SUia7ZIsMdo6W HtFEcjpJjAmQn19YRIJCDp6008Iv/hYs8hrkJVvdmdpm2GDG0W/mI+tM9/3jywF5zigngCThH 9GWwcvk4hT1R5pqYyLmpULM3qdp4Uik32msEergj/9gkKnkoLA2F3B6spQwsZhBE4QGuGMMXh rxYCfYnub56Da1BvdfGnzjLKETtEVglvIKN24ZBvzAPpfdEV4dVmPJO/qtt3UhUhawU0fupUC vjqRdqZmeV5wonwblqNL/vLeIYnhPrJhubJzApam5TLoUj8djrpAG4cKP6VhicfBV2fbHo72t uALdXNj2NojBW8sMlXDzYPyk61HpKpGQbxL1cBFBx5asKnt2Lbx3ww6VLJ+uctYN2gvwLxdtz gQD2YlYUtdroSygiRKhCUvHojPCEg9/xDkfmDaY/KPuxzDOKE4pv3YrUV3DU3rJlFMI9niI8B ULrPw5jpNsGFWjk1mDlZUsMwTRyaNejCeUr+DJUnDH2Prbi2xKlOHn0Agp+cI0rO+27nhR3Ig nqlYRVfom/hVHAJKpyg9XnuOmWt5xIjVJPmQdX4+xK43jgAV4iNEHCmM3vQZU4iQbsCORq47x fSBum0dCkcRs4TMDURchxUNzsXiU4EXfwpKk2Sqwc/665RyIy+T+PIePO7zdfow+ajMe1g6P/ p3gnhnrfUHxqwiTldQ42X2pUcGlHutTCyMb0FwlMLHmtjfk8240tjCVkKJoRxlY8n1t1M747d YhTeTvGzuAPTUvF1DoOHdrzT6pid+W9UfFQel4zu/2trizuY6PPlb85u/hHejWNKY7IjJxYKO yESuUSRLTRqU/ld92Qb5ujkncLGQEtmFA7KFbXJqnDxK0i+DmRaDEtM3S6WxXJnPfjQIwx9 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496xBt3kbDz46cK X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.42 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[75.109.102.188.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.75)[0.753,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.996,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[187.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[187.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.28)[ip: (0.53), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.21), asn: 8560(2.07), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 23:16:23 -0000 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:50:03 -0700, Jordan wrote: > I agree, manually manipulating PDFs with a GUI is not very efficient, > however, the work I do cannot be automated (atleast I haven't found > a way). Okay, so you have a scope of what you're trying to do. > On a PDF I may have to extract out pages 3, 5 and 14 into a new 3 > page PDF because I only need the data from pages 3, 5 and 14. The > very next PDF file I work on I may need to extract out 20 pages, all > in a row, from pages 20 to 40. The next PDF file I may need the > first and last page. There is absolutely no common denominator from > these three PDF's and the only thing common is that I need to extract > pages. While you will surely agree that pdftk can do this, I assume that you also have to look at the pages you're going to process. That's where probably Gimp's or LibreOffice's PDF support is the better tool. This matches a lot with your further description: You need interactive visual inspection, and basically "one of a kind"-work has to be done. > It is easier to visually click, hold CTRL to continue highlighting > pages and then right click, extract (which creates a new PDF) and > then drag and drop the new PDF pages into a GUI file manager (such > as Thunar) to create the new PDF. Many years ago, I had to do something similar with PDF files only containing images of circuit boards. I decided to use pdfimages (from the xpdf package) first, then previewing them in a GUI file manager with preview support; I deleted the non-needed images, renumbered what required renumbering, and then run my png2pdf.sh script (that uses ImageMagicK's convert program in combination with pdftk) on the "result directory", which generated a new PDF file containing only the diagrams needed. Of course, this does not work for PDF files containing text, but for this specific task, there is no text, only Zuul. ;-) > I don't see how CLI tools will work with the above example > workflows although I am all ears to hearing others opinions. A CLI tool in combination with a "selector" (GUI file manager) would probably be possible, but limited (as I mentioned). You could of course do something like this: 1. use pdftk to split PDF input file with n pages into n PDF files, one for each page 2. use GUI file manager for preview, maybe deleting and maybe re-ordering files 3. use pdftk on n-k files to generate new PDF output file with n-k pages The actions for steps 1 and 3 can be launched from the file manager's context menu for the specific directory, so you don't even have to use a terminal here. However, this all doesn't look very convenient even when presented in pseudo code. :-) > I know "professional" PDF software such as Adobe Acrobat Pro works > but it is only compatible with Windows (and maybe GNU/Linux). I don't know if it is possible to use it with wine, it _might_ be possible; however, licensing issues and costs are significant here (check Adobe's "always online" licensing stuff if you want to get scared). Maybe you can try Gimpshop (a "Photoshop"-like variant of Gimp, which has PDF support that might be exactly what you need). Furthermore, the office applications (LibreOffice and OpenOffice, I never know which one I should name) will probably also be able to do this. > I found another proprietary PDF Professional software but it is > only available for Windows, Mac and GNU/Linux. I am on a quest > to find something for FreeBSD as I believe it to be superior OS > than the aforementioned. Using a "Windows" or a Linux program is often possible, but of course the vendors won't tell you about this, because they do not support FreeBSD as a platform, do no testing on that platform, don't care about that platform, and probably don't even know about that platform. And spending $$$$$ just to find out it doesn't work surely isn't acceptable. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 22 23:23:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4357A2C60E1 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 23:23:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496xLX017Qz4728 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 23:22:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from cds220.dcs.int.inet ([10.0.153.144]) by shaw.ca with ESMTP id ROhkj6YCOng7KROhljGclN; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:22:57 -0600 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1587597778; bh=wzST5Sz2beGmWhoZXdZLNNuN2GAdujfXBENKVRV1MjM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=FpqYWcUNPUBMHuTiUiEO+nVgG4ntKsd73WAf1ytCOKHuJXDoZ9obcaDF9KsuygM0O lgFNsRH9AUmzq5UezGyGWF2OZDTNMLjYkfpMr+4PMuFZZYyaVVyBcw2/2fHrKAN76T mLJYAzqX4BE8PTikEZCePu2CzUCQ+zn59LbI70gj8NktQ4c1NzVDbuRftm/ufgmuT0 wOaU5662mw7FnulxqII9R4W/yzxaCOObZUlYSb8p0MvMtx7WVuRqCStFFL+q5mmG/f JH7eGKI0si8XVx+1UgKR2+Bls7am08N+sw6jW4e1x13jrFOJFeKyQ7aphngfEPNV21 B7N6szrU6rWIQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1587597778; bh=wzST5Sz2beGmWhoZXdZLNNuN2GAdujfXBENKVRV1MjM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=FpqYWcUNPUBMHuTiUiEO+nVgG4ntKsd73WAf1ytCOKHuJXDoZ9obcaDF9KsuygM0O lgFNsRH9AUmzq5UezGyGWF2OZDTNMLjYkfpMr+4PMuFZZYyaVVyBcw2/2fHrKAN76T mLJYAzqX4BE8PTikEZCePu2CzUCQ+zn59LbI70gj8NktQ4c1NzVDbuRftm/ufgmuT0 wOaU5662mw7FnulxqII9R4W/yzxaCOObZUlYSb8p0MvMtx7WVuRqCStFFL+q5mmG/f JH7eGKI0si8XVx+1UgKR2+Bls7am08N+sw6jW4e1x13jrFOJFeKyQ7aphngfEPNV21 B7N6szrU6rWIQ== X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=ecemg4MH c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=YjOmSjUxhsfmstj0eziGpw==:117 a=FKkrIqjQGGEA:10 a=on0NmgUIp3IA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=sulp-nw3AAAA:8 a=5mcg790sAAAA:8 a=UD7uQ7OiAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=k0ifnYqO65iAiBDXv-4A:9 a=sOHqxOlo_otrBeT_:21 a=h8l8PrnOsfVWVuK-:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=pUnO4FrxeG7axTgWw1u6:22 a=uQeDYW1NI25gHNlrW_eK:22 a=Zkq0o-JBKtHmMz2AGXNj:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:22:56 -0600 (MDT) From: Dale Scott To: Jordan Cc: freebsd-questions , Polytropon Message-ID: <1584212720.148023480.1587597776062.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> <20200423002530.87cf0d91.freebsd@edvax.de> Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [162.223.103.50, 162.223.103.50] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.15_GA_3899 (ZimbraWebClient - GC81 (Win)/8.8.15_GA_3895) Thread-Topic: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options Thread-Index: jQBrXjoK8rAtQ4SgBWyDHUqMgVxn5A== X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfO742D/GnXzpB6hK4D4FpWC++nq/+r5RZT2fFlklTGIcX9tjVTT6LjRmdCGLMUfgVsAKq0nGf2FGB6y++1Z0ySecZ2xeXO7U64rdbL3epsik/rNxVJ4R TmZXpnaTHLwcwlFfN8e2Zmb8XTsXAL+SkVnFMj/1SdcRKjVCpyWOzZEFDNPMKedBxpl3xfIGTgW5+hWHnuOWAS1aMpbr1eyx8duCScE4KrJkhqhtH0VGTmUK WSRCFJBl3ZkiNBuVNmVZRA== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 496xLX017Qz4728 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=FpqYWcUN; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=FpqYWcUN; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=shaw.ca; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dalescott@shaw.ca designates 64.59.134.12 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dalescott@shaw.ca X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[shaw.ca:s=s20180605]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[12.134.59.64.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:64.59.134.0/25]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[shaw.ca.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; URIBL_PBL(0.01)[pdflabs.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[shaw.ca:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[shaw.ca,none]; IP_SCORE(-2.53)[ip: (-6.73), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.27), asn: 6327(-2.56), country: CA(-0.09)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 23:23:01 -0000 Have you looked at PDFtk? It's in the ports collection and claims to be a Java equivalent of PDFtk. IIUC, PDFtk is a product from PDFLabs (https://www.pdflabs.com/tools/pdftk-the-pdf-toolkit/), who also provide a CLI tool ("PDFtk Server") with source which you may be able to compile on FreeBSD. Fwiw, my usual desktop is Windows and I use "PDFTK-Builder" (a Windows GUI app) to do what you want "manually" (extract pages from various PDFs and merge to create a new PDF), which seems to be a Windows GUI with PDFtk Server underneath. However, I recall needing to use the CLI PDFtk Server directly once because PDFTK-Builder didn't expose a command-line switch I needed. Good luck! Write back and tell us what you ended up doing. Cheers, Dale --- Dale Scott Engineering and NPI Leader Web: www.dalescott.net ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jordan" > To: "freebsd-questions" > Cc: "Polytropon" > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 4:50:03 PM > Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options > Hi Polytropon, > > Thank you for the response. > > I agree, manually manipulating PDFs with a GUI is not very efficient, however, > the work I do cannot be automated (atleast I haven't found a way). > > On a PDF I may have to extract out pages 3, 5 and 14 into a new 3 page PDF > because I only need the data from pages 3, 5 and 14. The very next PDF file I > work on I may need to extract out 20 pages, all in a row, from pages 20 to 40. > The next PDF file I may need the first and last page. There is absolutely no > common denominator from these three PDF's and the only thing common is that I > need to extract pages. > > In other words, I cannot write a script or use CLI to know ahead of time what > needs to be done, because it takes my eyes to visually see the pages and to > know what pages I need extracted. I cannot use grep or any text searching > function on these PDFs because on one PDF I may need certain pages that contain > words that have absolutely nothing to do with the pages I need on the next PDF > I work on. So, very unfortunately, this is a very manual job and requires > human beings (again, from my knowledge of CLI, scripting, etc). > > Using CLI would require me to visually look with my eyes a PDF file in a GUI > situation and then turn around, open a console, type in a command to extract > out a list of specific pages I need to then have to turn around and move that > newly created PDF file to a difference location that may be nested 30 folders > deep (and won't be consistent location as the next PDF I work within). It is > easier to visually click, hold CTRL to continue highlighting pages and then > right click, extract (which creates a new PDF) and then drag and drop the new > PDF pages into a GUI file manager (such as Thunar) to create the new PDF. > > I don't see how CLI tools will work with the above example workflows although I > am all ears to hearing others opinions. I know "professional" PDF software > such as Adobe Acrobat Pro works but it is only compatible with Windows (and > maybe GNU/Linux). I found another proprietary PDF Professional software but it > is only available for Windows, Mac and GNU/Linux. I am on a quest to find > something for FreeBSD as I believe it to be superior OS than the > aforementioned. > > -- > Jordan > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Polytropon wrote: >> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:14:59 -0700, Jordan wrote: >> > I need PDF software that can add pages, remove pages, extract pages >> > and redact. >> >> With "redact", you're refering to PDF annotations? >> >> >> >> > All of the PDF ports I have found are simply viewers and don't allow >> > manipulations of the PDF in a single packaged GUI application. I work >> > with hundreds of PDFs each day so I cannot work within a CLI to >> > manipulate the pages. >> >> I'd say the exact opposite is the case: If you're going to deal with >> a lot of files, using CLI tools to automate those tasks usually is >> the more convenient way - instead of doing everything manually in >> linear time. :-) But this of course depends on many parameters, such >> as if the kind of manipulation always is "one of a kind" or can be >> somehow standardized... >> >> >> >> > I do a lot of extracting of pages into a new PDF by dragging and >> > dropping pages from PDF software to a GUI file manager such as >> > Thunar. >> >> This can easily be done with the GUI file manager of your choice >> plus pdftk. Page preview support is present already in tools like >> Thunar. >> >> >> >> > Any suggestions that you use or have heard that works with FreeBSD? >> >> Tools like LibreOffice (and surely also OpenOffice) can directly >> open and manipulate PDF files. Gimp also has support for this >> format. For CLI operations, pdftk and ImageMagick are versatile >> tools that can be combined with GUI tools as well as used for >> batch operations. >> >> Is this a starting point for you? >> >> >> >> -- >> Polytropon >> Magdeburg, Germany >> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 >> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 04:38:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013912CC507 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 04:38:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4974LL0Fb2z4NV8 for ; 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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[shaw.ca.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 04:38:19 -0000 Hi all, I'd like suggestions for a new basic server. I'm currently running my website and a number of web apps I use to demo enterprise work processes on a single-disk 11.3 server with a 2nd disk for periodic backups of the web apps and the occasional file system dump. I'm concerned about backups and recovery, and would like replace the server with a new ZFS-based system and a pool of three or four 1T SSDs. I'm not interested in laboring over spec's and tweaking the system out and I'm not storing the world's movie collection. I favor basic, mature parts and minimum time spent making decisions. Is the following migration strategy reasonable? Can I restore a dump from my single-disk system to a new bhyve/ZFS system? Can I copy the virtualbox-ose virtual disk file to the new system and bhyve will know what to do? I'm using the virtualbox-ose NAT to remap the vm IP address and port, will bhyve be able to do this? Thanks for your recommendations. ## CURRENT SERVER wwww.dalescott.net:8080 <------------------------------------+ | | www.dalescott.net <--\ +--------+-------+ mantisbt.dalescott.net <--+ | ERPNext/Linux | proqjector.dalescott.net <--+ +-----------------------------------+ nextcloud.dalescott.net <--+-----+ Apache/MySQL/PHP | virtualbox|ose | +------------------+----------------+ | FreeBSD 11.3 | +-----------------------------------+ emo (DHCP ISP) | Core2 66000 | <-----------------------------------+ 6GB RAM | +------+----------------------------+ | +----+ 200G HD - ada0s1a on / +----+ 200G HD - ada1p1 on /backup ## PROPOSED SERVER wwww.dalescott.net:8080 <------------------------------------+ | | www.dalescott.net <--\ | mantisbt.dalescott.net <--+ | proqjector.dalescott.net <--+ +------------------+ | nextcloud.dalescott.net <--+-----+ Apache/MySQL/PHP | | +------------------+----------------+ | FreeBSD 11.3 | ERPNext/Linux | +------------------+----------------+ | bhyve | +-----------------------------------+ emo (DHCP ISP) | ?? CPU | <-----------------------------------+ ?? RAM | +------+----------------------------+ | \----+ 4x 1T SSD --- Dale Scott Web: www.dalescott.net From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 07:27:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC3E2AA51D for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:27:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic308-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic308-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.187.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49785H4ZGcz4b4J for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:27:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 0zPWYhoVM1kZO9Boi0qiYfojiWeLxnPnDS2_d4d8alprKNK1PlrF4hSn_1WHy18 eR8wMO6on4zd5e6BpM9shbcGTh_yBgmcGab8jsIHI4pHSdmXI37nlMr49FrOp32aIMkHNR6idFMd RJPErqHsTHF6KfU8_EMLa97tJnsVctfhgxOd1Z1mmfKOg1RwcOrfsTNdNuIISxwJQfmMvtVZct8i 7imPrnlTihDGcQLzUkd8mEwxMmEdicubHu8RtmZECOT7CtB4Pqu2XuG8c.WyQCzVfPOdJGC6VK2Q SA5aiWDpFto05jbJGOH.isKbhNBji.O4WGFvrgjHegYTJ89lWOPgn2jPG_xzxrQsaVcQyaqTWBKC H0t78f7J2am.MYV8SOxhJCbHljnzFhwMBhk5xNTRZ1ImedVNhha8pjca4kfBibRp85fEDQ20XFUD JKZRbdAlaKkjkag7BZulaNtbLxoHiizEUdhyhcR0qSCTwxhE5bYrrbK534vknUgalTtIC89QS5uh bU6stQ2ZZzS8DMuOxWi0Ln5j.EgMCj2nI1sStUuhY10xE_OevMDTvyDmvPs_3z.D4BvfFc5W9SJC zDV1ssoj7lCOVOxlDfStvo3T9YYAqZ61ZSA._UVajoTGhtzyYTwPYUodAFQ_UItGfy29YpsAluho TPuqXTRsaBmvlbg_n_P7VSWFybT.nYm4n4uHHL2PmYyjd3odaCD9RPSk.T.Ni9R4vjzrJ.OhTsaE NpnJfIblmbKcGVPdMvr25l7bCA7vbwx0JaH43DS23ezZMcNYdaZlOTix93UNtYFqOitraEMxDtys Mj1_DrgNl__xkHEdjKydojtT2xluo4lYqt.sU.TBCVySvrapv5.8kTolPHaDlTd.BKGuhEiPpId2 qLPDQptES7EB0jiU.VjI4O09OC_D4mEiw9qCOimfRJhSO_xB03Y.jG.LGEQf6xS43Ijfj67b5kDa i_QxHNTIXvwJlKRDI2bE6L0XPpg9RrJvh6wcILdkC9v_0os_mMVF5yRBZ86k3aWtEHUi6l0530FZ O6pcTAcwSz7F_UvCLDGTVn7kLQN_SzfBFICV66fBxrPlqy9WPAm7LbJGzfTgecfe4j9.SepgLgti sNEWlGVmLC.0OYjAJohAxETySAkLjkubWiFYZdqKWDc1zy8rj0EPRW1gSBZLrvrNuPRrJX.AU4.1 XXOzOc5MikAk7jYU49esk3nKgxUaI.36eyf35KllfeA2RDO8EvTvva3NMZPJxRkm_kmzH1kLXJGP Qo1k6axEwERH0Org8I3TpkHE0HmJy7FjvtZGN.9aQ1twrV9V3LOBuGIPyyOWm5rYMiCABnclW90b LNGtyiL5WiBA8T0ByDSwAFfjMrR8.siG8ZjK7_vqKGsXXMDMTl212uXh2sZjLkxJQ61fP3ABV6SY BZd_DUNvJc3I4 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:27:13 +0000 Received: by smtp425.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 985d11679a91a24f1e4006112b438f55; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:27:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-f171.google.com with SMTP id j7so2467704pgj.13 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:27:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubP6swB6eQIPBWHcyaadwNwbSRvrydsGYsVMy2Rhw+2fjfKp7+u I2iBwjcRaJSNB7QKNfwPjciovx+TlpCHl28fMGA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJPxQpQzeNO01PUcCZbFINrsbbYVeLtp8AkWrpMfa+TZp8wkOwltV9y1tYyAYxnyTQkbTJliM1a0ji0YNZB8F0= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5509:: with SMTP id f9mr2858896pgr.70.1587626829909; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:27:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:26:53 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15756 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49785H4ZGcz4b4J X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.39 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.76)[-0.758,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.930,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.15), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.15), asn: 36646(0.92), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[31.187.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[31.187.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:27:16 -0000 On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 23:14, Jordan wrote: > > I need PDF software that can add pages, remove pages, extract pages and r= edact. > > All of the PDF ports I have found are simply viewers and don't allow mani= pulations of the PDF in a single packaged GUI application. I work with hund= reds of PDFs each day so I cannot work within a CLI to manipulate the pages= . I do a lot of extracting of pages into a new PDF by dragging and dropping= pages from PDF software to a GUI file manager such as Thunar. > The hard reality is that the only GUI application that can do all the tasks above is Adobe Acrobat Pro, which is proprietary, closed source and not meant to run on *nix, unless you use Wine or a Windows VM. The closest thing that I know of is Zathura, but cannot really compare to Adobe Acrobat Pro. --=20 Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 07:44:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02BAE2AAE3F for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:44:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4978TB75jGz4c5c for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:44:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id t12so4627507ile.9 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=B39GikBW/1pVFAhTJqPG7Jk1p2F64n+z+z6h6Oy92tw=; b=Sx0XD0wdg/PtST8q7JSsmHdKtBxaFOA4KEuiICkK+6z6Iz2r0STI7ToOLnUmIPbfr6 uOjbp0ymdY1Wx8akVL7fUjEUSRebomwbryUjs2blJncYzRIt7k0QBerZ8qXcpWewVdHE l/NkWGNEsHCVGVLhOab9AiXhowwA8ouXKSdBxGIimcvfbOsZepAbuQdGEregjrFcJzGX bgeW3ofvS5ypeIb1X6bd57lfNs6858EcyQCz+f7gir//k4tKbo4ypyl2sDiZkjAoRQYZ BKgtN/EzD95ecVLbOSiMn8d4ts4iJ3rIhpmoLqfhILvmodgf+K5+3y2YhbQNuXxl8HZ5 36jw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=B39GikBW/1pVFAhTJqPG7Jk1p2F64n+z+z6h6Oy92tw=; b=OEg6DCsLcBZ1Db4ZjzAyP0Cm3cdvWEzr4hbGpPlE26nRC8s4dg+for7aE5y4nkDnAY TZ1fdpn+MNjZb+cxGajPhAjQC4Y/EUKIQdXTrEhEkY71t1ZLkldfJrEBU8dtadZCgGKi IZnXq+Mwm5e/gRMvM8N3F6NbRKASTOaHvxWMfJLaL7eOFWhW2aQZOMLP8zPkCjnc8rYn eTDHDk+3fCbVVDqUrxPEBNB0/otaNjB0imtp4eX3qW7ybKngl88vWQkGnIxMr1owUAlq mRwxqFYSBpP3y4JoW/HSNx3D/FYE7UFq9uUFz7ObVEpyTE0Tlu007i1PKwq6RtFLermD KFvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYtXoYTeqXH6EpCJn2+RBl7pbRg3STuczNB94lRhTKKQmBduYkG i6CuKHb6+kSSBk1F2lF+OieZp3X8MHab3EiRRlU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKkIrr8Vb8l5tiQRPzTkyzXbD+Ol09Ju4JCfX9Kxr59GK25cYCKfeAjxSYETQK8xi1glwWQ7N5G2bS5q0Q+nsw= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d186:: with SMTP id z6mr2100977ilz.119.1587627869881; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 00:44:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> In-Reply-To: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:44:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Ihor Antonov Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4978TB75jGz4c5c X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Sx0XD0wd; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.99), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[c.2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:44:32 -0000 On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 4:25 AM Ihor Antonov wrote: > > BUT FreeBSD folks are conservative bunch, some especially don't like > changes > that come from "linsucks". Others say that FreeBSD is a server OS. Same > "server OS advocates" comfortably sit behind their MacBooks. There are > ones > that make a living with it so any unnecessary change at the very least is > ignored or at most is actively being not welcomed. > I want a beat up old pickup not a sports car to carry lumber in ;-) (Is FreeBSD sexy? no ... Do I care? no) Also Linux (and yes I am resisting calling it by it's proper name you gave above) has broken an amazing number of very simple things completely in half to the point of making them unusable. Let's take an example that caused me to lose a $20k contract back in 2014. Client wanted me to write a "decent" installer for OpenStack, this relates to Linux see below, (I don't know if the installer has improved since 2014 but back then it was horrific to put it politely). So I decided to start with DevStack (*NONE* of the tutorials on how to do a hand configuration of OpenStack worked and none of them {nor the OpenStack documentation}). So once I set it up I decided to reboot the host and no matter what I did after that DevStack simply refused to work. After a week of digging I ran across the following passage in the manual: "The worst disaster for a cloud is a power loss." ( https://docs.openstack.org/nova/latest/admin/node-down.html). So I decided to dig deeper and found out the problem was iSCSI (a Linux feature not OpenStack one) and its completely brain dead decision to allow block level access to disks over the network and do so as if it was a local disk as far the filesystem was concerned (with zero safeguards for the connection being lost, which makes a corrupted disk/file an almost certainty in the case of a power failure). So means if Linux had decided to do network storage the *RIGHT WAY* it have would of done something like NFS (if not NFS it self) and the worst that could have happened to OpenStack from a power failure would have been to force the guests to run fsck. Linux making the choice it did of iSCSI over a NFS-like system makes it impossible to run a stable cloud outside of a purpose built data center that can guarantee no power loss for no more then 1/10 of a second. (Doing so is not a good option for many organizations for security reasons.) Whereas even though PetiteCloud (see my signature) is nowhere near complete or ready for third party use, it already kicks the ass off OpenStack in that it can suffer a power loss without even batting an eye. I have been using it in my home office as my private cloud system for almost 5 years now and when I vacuum or there is a t-storm I lose power frequently and have never had to do anything more then a simple fsck of a guest drive despite having the file server and my desktop on physically separate machines. TL;dr; due to a royal F'up in basic storage system architecture Linux is unusable outside of data centers for any sort of cloud computing whereas FreeBSD doesn't even blink an eye in such environments. So you tell me which one is more modern and useful? There are many more examples, these are just the fresh ones. Read arch > mailing > list, I am not making this up). A few progressive developers are > outnumbered > by fanatics of retro-computing. "Don't fix what is already broken" they > say, > "nobody uses it anyway" :P A rush to be cool is usually a recipe for disaster unless you have no serious work to do on you machine except to paint racing strips on it (and the OS) and install flashing mutlicolored LED strips along the mother board because it "looks cool". I just gave a prime example above where the desire to be on the cutting edge without really understanding what had already been done before and proven to work completely crippled a product. I forgot to add that the mistake I mentioned above was so awful that it led NASA's inspector general to conclude that OpenStack was a $35M complete waste of tax payer's money! (https://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY13/IG-13-021.pdf) It should be noted like typical Linux developers OpenStack never paused for one second to go back and fix a glaring and obvious design flaw. Instead they just piled more and more ill-conceived and even worse-implemented crap on top of the flaw making any future failures even worse (and harder to fix). The FreeBSD core team would have *NEVER* tolerated such complete disregard for even the most basic system/software quality assurance! > > > I am afraid that on FreeBSD Wayland will remain a third-class citizen. > Look at sway for example: it needs Linux Kernel event API (evdev, luckily > on > by default in 12), epoll-shim and eudev-shim, and then some magic with > barely > documented kern.evdev.rcpt_mask=12 in sysctl.conf to make it work. > > Why? Because FreeBSD folks are generally not interested in contributing > proper > kqueue and devd support to "linusucks" projects. As well as maintaining > X11. > Linux developers are not going to write that either. The amount of > linuxisms > and shims is only going to grow, the desktop team is fighting an uphill > battle > here, there is no proper infrastructure for them to give users good > Wayland > support. All they can offer is shims, hacks and workarounds. > > And so Wayland will slowly but surely replace X in Linux world. But even > in 10 > years FreeBSD hackers will keep using rotting X11, will keep stating that > they > had jails first, ZFS is cool, GPL is evil and Netflix uses FreeBSD on > their > servers. > > FreeBSD is not a general purpose OS. It is a server OS, It is retro OS. It > is > OS that fills the niche where closing sources is needed for commercial > success. > An OS you want to put somewhere and never ever touch it again. It is not a > desktop OS, quoting someone from this very mailing list: "It is power to > serve, not power to desktop!" > I challenge you to show a single item in the base system that does not have the source available in a better documented and easier to find place then Linux does (any system that can only be built easily from binaries is not very open!). BTW as far as desktop use goes it does everything I need right out of the box with no special configuration needed after installing the XFCE ports (plus any browser and office apps I use). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 07:54:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B532AB5DA for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:54:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100036c9b50.254418b8da16a34d3576eb269faa09ae@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4978jC5ZnJz4csH for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:54:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100036c9b50.254418b8da16a34d3576eb269faa09ae@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587628496; x=1590220496; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=BvT/8e+RsRK0MU44mYb2i99VWulMtO8hdmlmwv8j1og=; b=b08sHmt3yYm6yVZsaOqykmyQGF0R1leD3cFQJqK+ja3aeSyrfcrO2QJa0dSWqpdaCqVb4Qu0mPSKi0v3Jcz/7e9S5FAHnQXetAaBVhzA7ziBpjdgucLwdhbW9uFGaPeRtlKKIhvvI0eSbXPk1TLKy/XRvHem+QqS3pjin3AMjTk= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDM2YzliNTAuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.13]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:54:45 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:54:45 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jRWh1-000Lev-M5; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:54:43 +0100 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:54:43 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Ihor Antonov , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200423085443.18f00e9649e8c71867505550@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4978jC5ZnJz4csH X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=b08sHmt3; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100036c9b50.254418b8da16a34d3576eb269faa09ae@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100036c9b50.254418b8da16a34d3576eb269faa09ae@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.972,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.22), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.31), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100036c9b50.254418b8da16a34d3576eb269faa09ae@email-od.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100036c9b50.254418b8da16a34d3576eb269faa09ae@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:54:57 -0000 On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:44:17 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > TL;dr; due to a royal F'up in basic storage system architecture Linux is > unusable outside of data centers for any sort of cloud computing whereas > FreeBSD doesn't even blink an eye in such environments. So you tell me > which one is more modern and useful? Linux supports NFS (since forever) and FreeBSD supports iSCSI (since 10.0) - the problem you describe is very real but it isn't a Linux/FreeBSD issue but what seems to be a very inappropriate use of iSCSI. For the record iSCSI originated with Cisco and IBM not Linux. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 08:08:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403652ABDB3 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:08:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lionfoxyx@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49790Q1ZWXz4dhc for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:08:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lionfoxyx@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id t11so2540981pgg.2 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 01:08:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.70)[0.697,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[5.3.5.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:08:07 -0000 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> TL;dr; due to a royal F'up in basic storage system architecture Linux is >> unusable outside of data centers for any sort of cloud computing whereas >> FreeBSD doesn't even blink an eye in such environments. So you tell me >> which one is more modern and useful? > Linux supports NFS (since forever) and FreeBSD supports iSCSI > (since 10.0) - the problem you describe is very real but it isn't a > Linux/FreeBSD issue but what seems to be a very inappropriate use of iSCSI. And, so many application layer storage solutions available such as webdav drive (GMX, t-online, yandex etc) and rclone for google drive. My 10GB SSD VPS has google drive mounted by rclone, can use unlimited storage provided by gsuite. Thanks. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 08:13:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C3C2AC18F for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:13:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from 14.mo1.mail-out.ovh.net (14.mo1.mail-out.ovh.net [178.32.97.215]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497973659kz4f67 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:13:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from player796.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.110.171.227]) by mo1.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C8C1B52BC for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:13:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from defert.com (ip-146-0-189-118.dyn.luxfibre.pt.lu [146.0.189.118]) (Authenticated sender: 20.100@defert.com) by player796.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE105119E1EB4 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:13:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Message-ID: <3e1efa0d-0b09-8612-d291-fa03b6537926@defert.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:13:48 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 5637662308834215940 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrgeelucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuqfggjfdpvefjgfevmfevgfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecuhedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeggihhntggvnhhtucffgffhgfftvfcuoedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmqeenucffohhmrghinhepphgufhhsrghmrdhorhhgnecukfhppedtrddtrddtrddtpddugeeirddtrddukeelrdduudeknecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpqdhouhhtpdhhvghlohepphhlrgihvghrjeeliedrhhgrrdhovhhhrdhnvghtpdhinhgvtheptddrtddrtddrtddpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepfhhrvggvsghsugdqqhhuvghsthhiohhnshesfhhrvggvsghsugdrohhrgh X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497973659kz4f67 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=defert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 20.100@defert.com designates 178.32.97.215 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=20.100@defert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.07 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.983,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[215.97.32.178.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:mail-out.ovh.net]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.990,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[defert.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[215.97.32.178.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.70)[ipnet: 178.32.0.0/15(1.48), asn: 16276(2.01), country: FR(0.00)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:178.32.0.0/15, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:13:53 -0000 I use PDF SAM Basic for this, it's a Java application and it works great under FreeBSD. You can download the "Portable Archive" for Linux (https://pdfsam.org/download-pdfsam-basic/), remove its 'runtime' subdirectory (Linux and FreeBSD already have openjdk available, 3rd -party applications shouldn't ship with a JRE, anyway) and customize (read: simplify) bin/pdfsam.sh. I haven't created a port for it because I didn't know other people would be interested, and also because I don't know the impacts of the GNU AFFERO v3 license it uses, but it would technically be easy. On 22/04/2020 15:14, Jordan wrote: > I need PDF software that can add pages, remove pages, extract pages and redact. > > All of the PDF ports I have found are simply viewers and don't allow manipulations of the PDF in a single packaged GUI application. I work with hundreds of PDFs each day so I cannot work within a CLI to manipulate the pages. I do a lot of extracting of pages into a new PDF by dragging and dropping pages from PDF software to a GUI file manager such as Thunar. > > Any suggestions that you use or have heard that works with FreeBSD? > > Thank you in advance. > > -- > Jordan From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 08:14:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BBE2AC230 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:14:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49797R10FVz4fBb for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:14:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id b18so4724480ilf.2 for ; 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Thu, 23 Apr 2020 01:14:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200423085443.18f00e9649e8c71867505550@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200423085443.18f00e9649e8c71867505550@sohara.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 04:13:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Ihor Antonov , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49797R10FVz4fBb X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=KpUrp0E+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::135 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[5.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.42), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:14:14 -0000 On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 3:54 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:44:17 -0400 > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > TL;dr; due to a royal F'up in basic storage system architecture Linux is > > unusable outside of data centers for any sort of cloud computing whereas > > FreeBSD doesn't even blink an eye in such environments. So you tell me > > which one is more modern and useful? > > Linux supports NFS (since forever) and FreeBSD supports iSCSI > (since 10.0) - the problem you describe is very real but it isn't a > Linux/FreeBSD issue but what seems to be a very inappropriate use of iSCSI. > Linux had iSCSI before FreeBSD ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISCSI#Operating_systems) did and from the get go there was huge pressure to use it instead of NFS because like everything else in Linux iSCSI was newer, shinier and faster then NFS (not stopping to see that any performance gain would be eaten up by any network having smaller bandwidth than local I/O devices, even slow ones like traditional drives). FreeBSD never stopped recommending NFS as the preferred network storage method. > > For the record iSCSI originated with Cisco and IBM not Linux. > Never said that Linux invented it I only said it was a Linux feature (and, by all accounts I have seen, the preferred Linux network storage method) -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 08:45:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADBB2AD43E for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:45:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4979qx1bs4z4h0w for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:45:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1587631547; bh=xUtAMXSakLJzkg+4kqNkkdYyj5TCmbo1NQ2qpUUMW8w=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=Ckcngebr5Kpy0ipdsoDZ042JmwFfQoJTlgoWF5AaiEc/1Ldu5YVbN6tHONHGNf0nI KrtD/R53cS6tPAxh1cNoorh55fGyjtuK7J9AcwGnjw3Gd++pZFQyBWj6THPa/8uTMX nlPllHfebjTm+CSasOnaXwHiLzYUoI7uOx4ypAhw= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from Pritelrohm ([82.243.97.146]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.184]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N1OXZ-1j3jCT3O2d-012let for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:45:46 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:45:34 +0200 From: Rand Pritelrohm To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options Message-ID: <20200423104534.30e2e14c@Pritelrohm> In-Reply-To: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> References: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4JuvzBfeMtPw2ukrCCbA/AI2Bhfe5Xp+E/we7/GRYUuf7DEF2yp p+koabaS/5aW42rc+nIXV0ZiCYzKj+dAHw+Uuy/KLJ0KtcIzN3EZCPQDcLvKM8OlZrf6+wz bA1BvR34y573PWiqrhTKpea4jGuHqLvnXWLekV4Wi7q7VglMpvp4UnxEYM2hVZeBJZ7FUA5 /1snyj87uudpVmDsQfj+Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:JVSd8NvXa80=:2Vba9n4Szu2c5AxIuQV26+ UEedQqQmC+EGe7QDc2EtmV6pwjj2xY3vsvomgLsrq+lYpI20kNd/InP/HsS5B/vjG/hxq67vL vHtVQSwCchwUPZEFdvh6iJo+AEN/a2jRjt5BhJKE78cVNXD+H41f7R6J67D2jIxwttzCJl9Ry oIW0pcCs/kObzabRSVq8XSFwgwMezuqaHnpZJ/kKsdXt0Rb5IV0bZJI05CvBGYNPQBR800njA tOfxFpkZ0Ke1zFgF8fCLM0pAOkn2i3aqUovNykuPOkcnE4ccY/W5xLUOqjaMFlHxcW5r0UOkr blqshdACDasR0l6x5fXsh5RI/+z92oK0LHcyrZ/RCl2bc8bfkqXeDfmmBX6WP+EzcT7tAb3a0 an+kPWll71N10dgufHtJPSljsczJcL8X0ktNPEeG9VY9chHX1kLierJSddcBG94IWgKkUsYbE xCXAOF5gl2blkWCZhAN0GagT6fHfrJsUF7sCP+xywFPUknGUohm/i8QLy1tdc8HhGMxgGqw3e NQpqyEyaJKj24wZCSl+MyJzxJ5Ku5rkmpDhIY6lAioqlG6Aa90spIqOXlxYYTkluknqAmPViG ldYBq9J7HgQlcqlQs87wOyLpTe/mk/UA4/TRWWhDbAOnGfFzxeRBTghFAX992ECYNB+fmRQZi ZTlD3TnumNkzRp2vrPmM03z/KNfKG6c2SjF1R9fiiqs5+HvBdr76U30A02Gn0omE7Yw+Mjm0z uQh/+rwxquBM3wMXfDy7kT7QEGhxG/nNRedSHAYEubi4Jy2qLZoptSAsCRfwoIU1pOvs9bQS8 AsUUWStKbI//3WVD7+M6JS89OFGY9+/PC0XDZBwhAbAfODfDOA5qBYFYMjzOPxpK6EFgnjfcd mMpCXIQT2yCMINr8RVvPkzDsqPlu/DZQvyf4BKMQUzmCrxrmJdNnUpFdxFhERnx9SLCwPCvrr /7AwpcDvY9inzCfkg/E5hL4ujPUgJxV4oBTLVYiuWB4XLDDsbZpELXh3KGhC+l3LmxE5g0+fN F9VYoQKX4KRuk3zDtJL13eQnqF3XToNhQEmRv5xmRhaoiG4W6ifjXbUfjfKRBVh65kTw/hOmY Rek6yC26iySYj9TH3of6EO+zi1wPMGnOCTsN87OSSQnxKOfG3Ovd5apbsdz6LySxlmB6tJtzN gDLBEclKKJsEJu+FuvBC23/cSN19QeGGP4qIDDkXh8Nw3Ztc+XeVU0FU6aaXSvd8VenQnxXWp VvKDz8m3St8lQiAds X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4979qx1bs4z4h0w X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.net header.s=badeba3b8450 header.b=Ckcngebr; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com designates 212.227.15.19 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rand.pritelrohm@gmx.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmx.net:s=badeba3b8450]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.227.15.0/24]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmx.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-7.22), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(2.07), country: DE(-0.02)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[19.15.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:45:50 -0000 On 2020-04-22 at 15:14(-0700), Jordan wrote: >I need PDF software that can add pages, remove pages, extract pages and >redact. > >All of the PDF ports I have found are simply viewers and don't allow >manipulations of the PDF in a single packaged GUI application. I work wit= h >hundreds of PDFs each day so I cannot work within a CLI to manipulate the >pages. I do a lot of extracting of pages into a new PDF by dragging and >dropping pages from PDF software to a GUI file manager such as Thunar. > >Any suggestions that you use or have heard that works with FreeBSD? > >Thank you in advance. > >-- >Jordan > Hi there! You can also do some operations (select pages, reorder them, add stamps/watermarks etc.) with LaTeX to have a final unique and consistant s= ingle pdf. The package to use is includepdf and eso-pic for stamping/watermarking. You can write a piece of shell script to fully automate the process (i.e s= elect input files and pages) of editing the .tex file and so do a kind of batch processing. With LaTex you can furthermore edit keywords and metadatas. Hope it will help. Rand From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 09:24:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69EE02AE81D; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:24:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x141.google.com (mail-il1-x141.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::141]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497Bhz28l2z4k1k; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:24:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chardon.frederic@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x141.google.com with SMTP id c16so4900273ilr.3; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:24:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hCNE9020bdzfsB3pNUgYrzLdkD/n48t+whEf1hZjsiU=; b=IxZ58pcIzJEJJXeFF0atBKBQnA5Ck2mAL7BOYgu1TE11+lxVATERUwFJPJeKQdz5jB L2THWyUPgwOJDXz4ssJTgrnS0Xxnj95IXiALRVk12V9A5DLU0ZJU/B+8DIIrj1AFUMRR 2DMv2n7+slucrQiSp7J5aUea29747fcQ6fW2c72z1IuQG7BwIdzgYZ0PavhFgCGfSNP+ +3GSck5M91MeyvVmmk3KBDHz9sqcnsJCGYT689CpNRpCXc1KjXhYW9dX7laJ2t5Mbswf rdd/COFUM/PzVnVGGIjJDi1Aoh99KnVQH+fYmXHUc/UdwTEB7/orCN2ai3b3KxqcUZOm T5Tg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hCNE9020bdzfsB3pNUgYrzLdkD/n48t+whEf1hZjsiU=; b=No+Ug+IAjYP8WyV5ceEnkdoXj60eSwCSqd6jnRsnSGgVAZWqcf0basDjdzAc5wkNXL 06g++fvkfZEBoQNzvVSBLYxAnh1fKxCoHE6OuE+CoQtEJdg1dpRtzBMlxnRG0eVlph+x D1G36hM+DfMd8ljAmNgpdlr38XmC4TMrnBuDu4olcIb3Sj0yt6+OZsT59wtKPgTUwnhj bsshwHEKm55kYdLlpTuSKoLWQeqPQp5rWNr5mfwM14sZoFSM+HLu0nhtikHrMVjBLAkA Wrx67U/cEWQpuRHODthPUG4O6wk8MUzB96wk+lD4XdfQfOuUTvRJWOYoJxYl7qm9SZGm GGtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub0JhSgqtLe9lJ5hKs0I7dAOV2qBwa8rkTTnMKULN4oYYyWgvp3 pRhRRzkn8Lq71mwY0CaTKeK0gv6YzHw2nNNpAHvxaFEoEi0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKoi8LKbYZZ3ROWbl88q2dJWi1ly8rzXI8hHJ8t59OPfYr6a99QSJG/AkWgtBR2Z/IdMr5pZo5qivfXTLtU/0o= X-Received: by 2002:a92:8bd1:: with SMTP id i200mr2577729ild.46.1587633889750; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:24:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6c7abdcf-aeef-4af4-b8f4-9d7fd0e45cf0@localhost> <7fba319c-c012-8893-3ce0-e2a166c38d2d@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: From: Frederic Chardon Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:24:37 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Jan Beich Cc: Niclas Zeising , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497Bhz28l2z4k1k X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:24:51 -0000 Le jeu. 23 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 00:35, Jan Beich a =C3=A9c= rit : > > Frederic Chardon writes: > > > Le mer. 22 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 16:51, Jan Beich a =C3= =A9crit : > > > >> > >> Frederic Chardon writes: > >> > >> > Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 23:06, Jan Beich a = =C3=A9crit : > >> > > >> >> > >> >> Frederic Chardon writes: > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > The trace shows usage of llvmpipe after the failed ioctl on > >> >> > /dev/dri/card0, so as I understand the lack of hardware accelerat= ion > >> >> > concerns only Xwayland, whereas wayland itself is accelerated ? > >> >> > >> >> Yep. Check which ioctls fail then try to reproduce outside of Mesa = or > >> >> hardcode the result. Overriding PCI ID via INTEL_DEVID_OVERRIDE is > >> >> unlikely to help e.g., > >> > > >> > All below failure occurs only in xwayland, X11 and wayland succeed. > >> > > >> > The first failure is with I915_PARAM_CHIPSET_ID. When I hardcode the > >> > correct ID I get a failure with I915_PARAM_HAS_RELAXED_DATA. When I > >> > force the result to be true (as with X11 and Wayland), the ioctl > >> > DRM_I915_GEM_EXECBUFFER2_WR fails with errno EPERM. > >> > >> Thanks for investigating. Maybe either DRM_AUTH or DRM_RENDER_ALLOW fa= ils. > >> Does setuid bit on Xwayland binary help? > > Yes, hardware acceleration works. eglinfo still complain about invalid > > 0xffffffff PCI ID though > > > >> Does disabling render node help > >> e.g., chmod 0000 /dev/dri/renderD128 ? > > No > > > > What helps however is to mount the different linux filesystems after > > i915kms is loaded. > > eg I added "late" keyword to fstab as below > > devfs /compat/linux/dev devfs rw,late 0 0 > > fdesc /compat/linux/dev/fd fdescfs rw,late,linrdlnk 0 0 > > linproc /compat/linux/proc linprocfs rw,late 0 0 > > linsys /compat/linux/sys linsysfs rw,late 0 0 > > > > without the late keyword, acceleration works if devfs alone is > > mounted. any other fs (with or without devfs) makes Xwayland use > > software rendering. > > As with setuid Xwayland, eglinfo complains about invalid PCI ID. > > manu@ fixed major/minor usage upstream. Can you try the following patch? No change. major are still different, minor doesn't have the 0x80 bit set, and hw accel is disabled if I mount linux pseudofs before kldload i915kms From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 09:32:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBCA2AEE49 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:32:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497Bsz67Byz4kd7 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:32:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id z17so4939674oto.4 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:32:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=thiWQkmTjKPPMgqJQ9biXt14zi7D6nr+oCZDa1lczH0=; b=NrE/LGrTS8q27pekLEj7tERzS/YGFDfZ51gB1tueO2NsnbARHzuuJVNkVkwRXjjB/l d1C2aXvSO07LW1ZcPYKiEbA+2HISP6SncbSu2zwsb+7uRsJbeAtl81Nio5esXjX8aH/y i4QrMV060K8kLooPFBU1a+haxfAt0FuckhK3pqxOSPgsh9YN1PeaXpEDrQ2qDaxgQ11S eUoYpLMY/8gI2inf/cXrN9+gDvPexdFrk30Gx5VEBskA5A/8w4DpApwCLIKcTQZh2lxq ddAVI/BH7Fkth67s8rwWeROcF40pHXNuIJGMSU48bPpM5S1GcWdsS6FCHUKWkHk9giBb DeBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=thiWQkmTjKPPMgqJQ9biXt14zi7D6nr+oCZDa1lczH0=; b=Undbcd8Dg+mfFgKMq5mlKpXZ1sv4TbR12j8dZdbEdZTwMEr8IkliUi8IIidNXVZxQn hq/2Yc8pGB0NxcG93yKKpjStpFKKgH9qLzqOtiy39QPGOscIBtkyzsbi/U0S/zQc5L/g 42gfNID5Jr5ERmVpz/nYODPQeUdg6pEPlYI0O4epQ9ZFDnLLFoxMHXxl8TdRZqtv+H4h 1Z+AQKyY7AlyZlkqFrdVJh0biVFq+MUg/bkKS4L61WJoNXarHexIHLj4L6n7fS9vYB6e ODjhpOsOUCbdDHA2VLcsBn7WV2Haz8+r1244ARQzQRGlMyxPYdw8l1wJua4KDrG1bnAu tc5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuansOnhISQkzBMja3uEy+dn552nqI4OfVxy6la3YZZQJxf4xYsY dmSR59F0zWkcg96uDH/xvwRWRc6zytI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKrXnau8hJ6RyMxrwgrygRLbOEhHaSfJO2nRTiUyfmMvcCs2Kd0ezM85/J+V7d5V1PO8wz2Pg== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:67c2:: with SMTP id c2mr2433645otn.227.1587634355595; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f43.google.com (mail-ot1-f43.google.com. [209.85.210.43]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 76sm484831otg.68.2020.04.23.02.32.34 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f43.google.com with SMTP id g14so4904619otg.10 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7ca:: with SMTP id 68mr2739612oto.267.1587634354391; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:32:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e1efa0d-0b09-8612-d291-fa03b6537926@defert.com> In-Reply-To: <3e1efa0d-0b09-8612-d291-fa03b6537926@defert.com> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:32:22 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options To: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497Bsz67Byz4kd7 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=NrE/LGrT; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::331) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-1.56)[ip: (-6.99), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:32:40 -0000 Also recent versions of LibreOffice can import/export and edit PDF files I am using with success and its in the ports :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 09:34:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E862AF238 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:34:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x32e.google.com (mail-ot1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497Bvx4KvPz4krC for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:34:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id c3so4913361otp.8 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:34:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nVTvhJ6z9PfPqGjsRC27mlVtjdQuZo+VGWnTrYWGGsU=; b=LQEShKf6B6yTaOzRMROQ7TABuaxh+6BzGJH8Qi6VBwglobz0WaM/O13LjZkrD6Uy6M O+GVwxf0nJdMIFoKqgrX9A8v8ujwOpszW4VwFBuOoPPbS6a5siprqNMygISpUxfp+9FQ wYxJAzxLt2V1nzbkfnnnc8BQBtnnIkdDmL/mJNwv7I/Vh6PfVz3g2YHCXw5Phi1OnRso NRhovJK7Ic48UwkTMfFMo/t27gxZdWBOZKjkOFUOZBMeIsrP3q03fyE4LNBAhsAIxeDs bBLQ5z+xBhLD9mZ3FcA3ZIu92JJ16f7XUwYzggU8gZSXTzrqtGhwn9GNkylGo7Xn8IJy OFww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nVTvhJ6z9PfPqGjsRC27mlVtjdQuZo+VGWnTrYWGGsU=; b=c4bB/A/b3ctqdxgP2ptWFYqp6Nh1iIYwgBJsHSFb+L80Z86f8RlcfS4ty13FL7GA7C WwhYbrCZkboBOewGAAxbXPUahNFM7f/EXowoAhaKzlyW3xTqpbNZCSzt/IOdH1ZdXHOf 3npliina5wEsyUF12frbIqTVkHdrF3/g6OF0Rysh1hn8UF2zpJIZQOYqYun5qmtTsStV HR6aPDPKjYn0JSJl0V3bT/dJgmriBSBekt2dvmhMMzTKZZhBstk5uqrn2xU3sYYa6Xwu uNAYOa+jvlqgVKPo8kcOqIIaLbDKg0YlhXG6iatrmj+IB5IGwAQayW8QMzt+qrcHAdkR Uocw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZATTk+oRpcVf25FxjT7ZdArNRlPg1pU5AzwAfeEzA5M87DOr87 hKv+/EmbmvNDB0YrwCpfNFegLUpezQs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKO8OWPqu8hDuWQVk2BIdK8bSnJJYN8WceuoG5e2/PN5PVEdVZ7pPBuL+giVanMqfF2khvL+g== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3405:: with SMTP id v5mr2807605otb.131.1587634459834; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 02:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f41.google.com (mail-ot1-f41.google.com. 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Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:36:21 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:36:19 +0200 From: Emmanuel Vadot To: Frederic Chardon Cc: Jan Beich , Niclas Zeising , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Message-Id: <20200423113619.846772c919fece1861a8cca7@bidouilliste.com> In-Reply-To: References: <6c7abdcf-aeef-4af4-b8f4-9d7fd0e45cf0@localhost> <7fba319c-c012-8893-3ce0-e2a166c38d2d@daemonic.se> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497ByN6nxqz4kyy X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bidouilliste.com header.s=mx header.b=ulwNjncR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=bidouilliste.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of manu@bidouilliste.com designates 212.83.155.74 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=manu@bidouilliste.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bidouilliste.com:s=mx]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bidouilliste.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[bidouilliste.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.38)[ip: (-9.19), ipnet: 212.83.128.0/19(1.88), asn: 12876(0.43), country: FR(0.00)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12876, ipnet:212.83.128.0/19, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:36:30 -0000 On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:24:37 +0200 Frederic Chardon wrote: > Le jeu. 23 avr. 2020 =E0 00:35, Jan Beich a =E9crit : > > > > Frederic Chardon writes: > > > > > Le mer. 22 avr. 2020 =E0 16:51, Jan Beich a =E9c= rit : > > > > > >> > > >> Frederic Chardon writes: > > >> > > >> > Le lun. 20 avr. 2020 =E0 23:06, Jan Beich a = =E9crit : > > >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> Frederic Chardon writes: > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > The trace shows usage of llvmpipe after the failed ioctl on > > >> >> > /dev/dri/card0, so as I understand the lack of hardware acceler= ation > > >> >> > concerns only Xwayland, whereas wayland itself is accelerated ? > > >> >> > > >> >> Yep. Check which ioctls fail then try to reproduce outside of Mes= a or > > >> >> hardcode the result. Overriding PCI ID via INTEL_DEVID_OVERRIDE is > > >> >> unlikely to help e.g., > > >> > > > >> > All below failure occurs only in xwayland, X11 and wayland succeed. > > >> > > > >> > The first failure is with I915_PARAM_CHIPSET_ID. When I hardcode t= he > > >> > correct ID I get a failure with I915_PARAM_HAS_RELAXED_DATA. When I > > >> > force the result to be true (as with X11 and Wayland), the ioctl > > >> > DRM_I915_GEM_EXECBUFFER2_WR fails with errno EPERM. > > >> > > >> Thanks for investigating. Maybe either DRM_AUTH or DRM_RENDER_ALLOW = fails. > > >> Does setuid bit on Xwayland binary help? > > > Yes, hardware acceleration works. eglinfo still complain about invalid > > > 0xffffffff PCI ID though > > > > > >> Does disabling render node help > > >> e.g., chmod 0000 /dev/dri/renderD128 ? > > > No > > > > > > What helps however is to mount the different linux filesystems after > > > i915kms is loaded. > > > eg I added "late" keyword to fstab as below > > > devfs /compat/linux/dev devfs rw,late 0 0 > > > fdesc /compat/linux/dev/fd fdescfs rw,late,linrdlnk 0 0 > > > linproc /compat/linux/proc linprocfs rw,late 0 0 > > > linsys /compat/linux/sys linsysfs rw,late 0 0 > > > > > > without the late keyword, acceleration works if devfs alone is > > > mounted. any other fs (with or without devfs) makes Xwayland use > > > software rendering. > > > As with setuid Xwayland, eglinfo complains about invalid PCI ID. > > > > manu@ fixed major/minor usage upstream. Can you try the following patch? >=20 > No change. major are still different, minor doesn't have the 0x80 bit > set, and hw accel is disabled if I mount linux pseudofs before kldload > i915kms major/minor are irrelevent on FreeBSD, upstream code now don't care about them and should properly detect the node type. I haven't followed the whole thread as it's a typical mailing list thread that switched to troll and unreleated content. Can someone explain what is the problem that you have please ? > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" --=20 Emmanuel Vadot From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 10:16:31 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27542B0761 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:16:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic304-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic304-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.191.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497CrZ146Jz4n78 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:16:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: H79BuQIVM1nMdW7DBe84QavMg2pRf5m3WUJIuBe9oa6ZXVJKVl94X7vXOap9QgA 6k_NMqff_9oGbXkjxLSmtEJTn5SRkuI2Np7ZI8Lyf68iYNPkt3qQjsZVuZpbdO42QvFRwfmqVGFH tS8P.Tfhj5633c3ENDwgHvKKk5wglLv9ZicPxsnIJ7hr0ePoGaoqLm5eeZMA4W0PymSJ9PqelAdQ FKLjjQpP6xchEE_ArIYNrFn2VuolWRWWLcdm9M2j_lerc6O7YxfB9xEQjOiE84jqbJ72HdcdmuSt Nmfa1jUrrShym1fGZrtbFYbYom4YCig0_GeHARVNXrF1h0JiwpMkMKfLg7i9bGWJR5xQcUFuW5b0 zUXNFf2wJ0DLvmriJxxJ2q4mddrpSOZZUobryIMkv7id46guBaboG7fwcD51F1HpipLoKfyiE7_G iabQQH9m.le7J.6p.IXgp3tsrMIdIFUFaJSEkVVTXeQIj1MPAmP6MjeKf.3ePIwH5QJ2T3ywrBwn HuHiOM77zaqOseOnNc2JXAPshxblTbTECafduQWGhuvILeuAXI5O7v2cobwUaF3HsfTXU8LBAJWY w.QdzAi28DgGj167KRbX9Ld7.2swFhru_1FU8kvsRerCygew044mbc9R91aUZHslgqIsTkgsnE2Q 8xsG0GinHiXbaGcKvGXc4vtbeYTpVRHgkK5B3HL_VV9k1zpNgT44aCuR9PDdij5zouN5qAcTDppp 1XaQxxtJ7enGb257j9vgH6Rd5YQKGgR7qjM9DeW3nrk61Qm.DOU8zfVPqcDtA_3Kxhvu9nAUwK3o jK1HsA1VkkvDNNLPPyyYZ.ZeNJY0L2h0gMVZBtwN1vKQ.atf0Dkf7clI.eqbdSijNvqzrsxqqfFZ v1K.EDvYtpVoMWgfDQDeuaHAGQhHdghiibSXOK.eyP_13.sy0keOJkVRtyr0t9PqrCraLr_mun5k JpRnEZ2tkZIL3PkFXJLqf5kautlnjH4vKamLgM1dTIug_y77PbK2SWuY6BuP4.9H5baB7kmvrCff ZgCff.vRKrH.GXdWgLMIyufK2bm_wv2pAv2WYYSEiSsOltmb7ZLEHqqweY3kYeFO.LpYw4fVODv4 KLvJDdH2h8PyaBPxMnWHWWZd7dldOldecetCX9VcR79A3SsmixXN.n5bvXKMaO4GR6qS38B66PZw TuuPwCqXAwAVQ.o1UwkPLsf8I7m6DwG2L7VlvA8N0emtTtwLn8zfLrVPpWxSdimwYfNfKTJh9OiS oHOEasyj4myw_vlumu3jLm.ALnmj6ftCOXGsRJPrGyjkJKFCun42Oh6J1wji.CuDiwv2Wqhy_uAb Ew8PSFFTBnSS_v94V76dybbSMBcLrUUJlvhRrYF1TtN5t0AHvjpas52CNvipGvB8kWUFMYaJj7HK .yxBLbWAxO0vBVub5pMg- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:16:27 +0000 Received: by smtp401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f191b97766a786a441ff97924c1858f0; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:16:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f178.google.com with SMTP id h11so2163214plr.11 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:16:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaXb3lf1QxUlw+AjjFiZWTRqSOn21nLI4z2DTCeHCJLjWpFMCDv O+J8K8WUaXosIOdcXT8p+xNLkAQzCA3VCWscZZY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJmhxkgtvm1wA9lYRHAm7edNvDGDu37cEmcwd5GMifFUsIK4TK//PxacsMXgMf86hD03aXWwflwHd+raawDgac= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d917:: with SMTP id c23mr3606052pjv.192.1587636984393; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 03:16:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e1efa0d-0b09-8612-d291-fa03b6537926@defert.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:16:08 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15756 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497CrZ146Jz4n78 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.29 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.70)[-0.698,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.90)[-0.896,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.86), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.15), asn: 36646(0.92), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[146.191.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[146.191.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:16:31 -0000 On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 at 10:32, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > Also recent versions of LibreOffice can import/export and edit PDF files I > am using with success and its in the ports :-) Yes, but the quality and the rendering of even simple text-only pdf documents is atrocious! If the document to be edited is text only, it's just better to convert it to text, edit it and then reconvert it back to pdf. Otherwise, if there are pictures or multi columns, I can't see any professional alternatives to Acrobat Pro. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 10:24:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90B12B0AD2 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:24:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from hillend.cent.gla.ac.uk (hillend.cent.gla.ac.uk [130.209.16.102]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497D1R70cqz4nVG for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:24:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk ([130.209.14.164]) by hillend.cent.gla.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1jRZ1d-0006kI-D7 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:24:09 +0100 Received: from cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) by cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:24:08 +0100 Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.21.50) by cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:24:08 +0100 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=oQLpdZCiSjeMm6ejNTsomS79XDN68UvzaB2tYL6humO6tBEOd1cFsBUB3FpeV5e29J7JOgbwpWRHjFG8+Mh2wFb5VeP4Lj0OsmMSgH5Oh3CHd21uN/UwqEaYvS10LEYcrXhKqI44NFQH5PyU0XbsRRuXfABGOajKcd91J5L/5Fs80fZN0MxabVjvjpNLir1smcX1kKFNgwCa963GGWn2mSAw/Ds9UruJ0fcmXL/Vf8w/JRLRG9fEqOAgs2nqpoXy/AVYGqttKbsbJ5FiR0sYkocZLHii2mxqaVfc4G8UIlhfjW+SqRXF0m0oX/Zn1txk+XH3CvvDSlLKtDh++SMD6Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=WFOZNPFWdQITr+Zv3LqC3/q83/LTtZ7S0xfs/UAj1kc=; b=BrC5yIuthD/Z8Lc326APMtpifOmRVdTfhEZRmxFe0HQfdL2/xP2xYruqrI1tCVNqsuVZp+ddsiZPr7VraMKqZeUqTCWyjPBizVIIH2Id+CpZBGGqPyaAZ5VR/pgJ7aa/PhehCphP0uuCCjuUYRYV55NkjVcSo8eKEHfc7KO2XJptDxyGy5/QxaLh1rNHE9fqB5dHmAf21SRJLcYCLtg0uYYNLqPTzDlLQ2D9J1Qj7WtoAtonweo28d8nT6vwGjUZK2m650Vh6vmA54Jx6pzSjZ51MEzi2/i6mdzyLxOvYXlbO/WtDhDzNfvnvXWKX2qFLtJtkD7D3UvxXECUvmZC0A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=glasgow.ac.uk; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=glasgow.ac.uk; dkim=pass header.d=glasgow.ac.uk; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gla.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=WFOZNPFWdQITr+Zv3LqC3/q83/LTtZ7S0xfs/UAj1kc=; b=HiXBpTjl0Co7t33/nquQizuiLqOBypZKMDZUJuUplghPwrc/sjGKWS4DTl+qJDv9GXhq6KWLa7WxW7EYLp1hAiJZI1JrwiFpiPOdsGDfkofwzzXscbBZ1rfZ1HLT2vqP2pO2pNVExngMYoA/AfJFMRtAKMDb5KliFaJM2O+qFAE= Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.144.19) by CWXP265MB0456.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.185.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2921.29; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:24:08 +0000 Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd]) by CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2921.032; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:24:08 +0000 From: "Norman Gray" To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: blacklistd: what does it detect? 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On 20 Apr 2020, at 12:43, Norman Gray wrote: > I've enabled blacklistd on a 12.1 machine accessible to the open > internet, but it's not blocking as many failed ssh attempts as I > expect. Am I misunderstanding something? Is there documentation anywhere (outside of the source) of how blacklistd and sshd interact? There seems to be very little correlation between what I find in auth.log and what blacklistd is acting on, as reported by blacklistctl. Addresses seem to be blocked which barely appear in the log, and not blocked after making multiple appearances in one message or another. I haven't gone through [1] and [2] line by line, but what I've seen there makes broad sense, and leads me to expect something different from what I'm seeing. I'm worrying I've got something horribly misconfigured (though I've barely fiddled with the relevant configurations). My immediate goal is to cut down noise in the 'daily security run' log, and if that's chattering about connection attempts that sshd/blacklistd think aren't worth acting on, then I'm going to feel tempted to start fiddling with /etc/periodic/security/800.loginfail (which would probably be a bad idea). Best wishes, Norman [1] https://reviews.freebsd.org/rS305065#change-w4DoRPrDuJ51 [2] https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/tree/master/crypto/openssh -- Norman Gray : http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/it/ Research IT Coordinator SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK Charity number SC004401 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 13:07:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B008B2B5ADC for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:07:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca) Received: from doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (doctor.nl2k.ab.ca [204.209.81.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497Hdn3hnJz3F0M for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:07:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca) Received: from doctor by doctor.nl2k.ab.ca with local (Exim 4.93.0.4 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jRba8-000AAw-HY for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:07:56 -0600 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:07:56 -0600 From: The Doctor To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Is the freebsd website down? Message-ID: <20200423130756.GA36310@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497Hdn3hnJz3F0M X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.77)[0.765,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; URIBL_PBL(0.02)[empire.kred]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[nl2k.ab.ca,quarantine]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.75)[0.747,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.15)[ip: (-0.35), ipnet: 204.209.81.0/24(-0.18), asn: 6171(-0.14), country: CA(-0.09)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; INTRODUCTION(2.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6171, ipnet:204.209.81.0/24, country:CA]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:07:26 -0000 All right, just tried freebsd-update and pkg update with portsnap ready to go and nothing. Just went to freebsd.org's website and looks like nothing is there? What is happening? -- Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising! https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism Joy is not in things; it is in us. -Richard Wagner From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 13:12:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1222B5E5B for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:12:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ypankov@fastmail.com) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497Hl35ht0z3Fj7 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:11:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ypankov@fastmail.com) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0434C5C00CB for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap26 ([10.202.2.76]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:11:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.com; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=9Wc9XoSyzjvY+m+HIByiq/6DLygiXiR kCAotCorS7aI=; b=atoA6OLbhhtGuBkpMqb+OyIwLWpSHENmeqq3dTCgi13xSMb 3H0KpPfabXLaa2+hGNsCtqri+qN3e0IpOaF/KMlxvpjIZeo9O08CKFKwpWfWf1Yn J5tWuCWFiYUYum07xsQzB34JFeO4QTbSTC/8QAibpdW2LbfBursZpgIgLtAIYgm3 2NebFYFy8yE1ZEKRlDpdnyrQcFXXbfwOU1uHVM+J6U+I4NaAiLmRK53HFVFp1PFf ScI/+C6kOHnfgcKi0GqkI7Pk/tpwuBAVbyyVH2Z6Fo5Leag3Y0qvX6QbqrpD15Y4 HFbR5AyVzyEu3qpucVX0PiVIjqVhaMSVf82wAHw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=9Wc9Xo SyzjvY+m+HIByiq/6DLygiXiRkCAotCorS7aI=; b=MD0Ysn0oDaY/x5x9IX5VpO CNqRW9zGTN79jeU8RqIgG1+fpVM26MMYkoaqFKPaJQffzDWNZJzSO08m87hZlmqz Th9F7KrGF3thhx2AbeKnVkf7J3obx+3AFM992B6kXfJPr4EtgY+J7kY8umMBGNUD 9JVRDJZfGeHIatxvQbkjkSrYv9TdZR8pI8MZWOMEZ7CWIBpbu+cXF4jz6JnAspQ9 I1KktAyw3zpTGzJmeFTJ4Hg10/GUBemUvPXCCaZQINLbCQmMxOssMMCWDxzt1MCh xy8zst24DFqF2k+ZlXquvcpE8Bc7SOkVtcS9NQywqQhlFbQweSXHEiI2C1j4GZtQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrgeelgdehkecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdgjuhhrihcurfgrnhhkohhvfdcuoeihphgrnhhkohhvsehf rghsthhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhgnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhephihprghnkhho vhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id A3FCC14200A2; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:11:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-351-g9981f4f-fmstable-20200421v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1ad29e4a-79ee-4cec-b4a5-f09ad71106ce@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20200423130756.GA36310@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> References: <20200423130756.GA36310@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:11:38 +0300 From: "Yuri Pankov" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is the freebsd website down? Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497Hl35ht0z3Fj7 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=fastmail.com header.s=fm2 header.b=atoA6OLb; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=MD0Ysn0o; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=fastmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ypankov@fastmail.com designates 66.111.4.25 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ypankov@fastmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.09 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[25.4.111.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:66.111.4.25]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[fastmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[fastmail.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[fastmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[25.4.111.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[fastmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[fastmail.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.81), ipnet: 66.111.4.0/24(-4.89), asn: 11403(-2.69), country: US(-0.05)]; MID_RHS_WWW(0.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:12:01 -0000 On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, at 4:07 PM, The Doctor via freebsd-questions wrote: > All right, just tried freebsd-update and > pkg update with portsnap ready to go and > nothing. > > Just went to freebsd.org's website and looks like nothing is there? > > > What is happening? FWIW, works here from my phone. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 13:18:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F1F2B6090 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:18:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497Hth0nLsz3Fvm for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:18:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Is the freebsd website down? Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:18:34 -0600 References: <20200423130756.GA36310@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200423130756.GA36310@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497Hth0nLsz3Fvm X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.53 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.968,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.984,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(-0.12)[ip: (-0.34), ipnet: 65.112.0.0/12(-0.06), asn: 209(-0.14), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_DNSFAIL(0.00)[kreme.com : query timed out]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[42.55.121.65.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:18:44 -0000 On 23 Apr 2020, at 07:07, The Doctor via freebsd-questions = wrote: > All right, just tried freebsd-update and=20 > pkg update with portsnap ready to go and=20 > nothing. >=20 > Just went to freebsd.org's website and looks like nothing is there? It=E2=80=99s fine here (checked three connections from three different = providers too: cable, fibre, mobile). Also, portsnap ran fine a few hours ago on the fibre-connected = computers. --=20 Lobotomy means never having to say you're sorry -- or anything else. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 13:34:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668702B6704 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:34:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497JDv2gZvz3Gs9 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:34:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.142.225]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AAEBE4E69C for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:34:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <09e273ff-4d9d-47eb-a6e1-d91f18c8a0ef@www.fastmail.com> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <0a44fc0a-22ec-b373-867b-f78d36cadc89@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:34:21 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497JDv2gZvz3Gs9 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.75 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[225.142.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (0.29), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.14), asn: 160(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.968,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:34:24 -0000 On 4/23/20 2:26 AM, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 23:14, Jordan wrote: >> >> I need PDF software that can add pages, remove pages, extract pages and redact. >> >> All of the PDF ports I have found are simply viewers and don't allow manipulations of the PDF in a single packaged GUI application. I work with hundreds of PDFs each day so I cannot work within a CLI to manipulate the pages. I do a lot of extracting of pages into a new PDF by dragging and dropping pages from PDF software to a GUI file manager such as Thunar. >> > > The hard reality is that the only GUI application that can do all the > tasks above is Adobe Acrobat Pro, which is proprietary, closed source > and not meant to run on *nix, unless you use Wine or a Windows VM. If diving into MS Windows, I definitely would mention PDF creator - PDF Architect (pdfforge.org), which do everything you need and are free for use. I started disliking Adobe a lot since they converted their practice to "software for rent", effectively abolishing perpetual licenses, and making your licensed software check in with Adobe servers (and not starting if didn't check in long enough). I still appreciate what they did in the past, namely creation of postscript. Just my 2 cents. Valeri > > The closest thing that I know of is Zathura, but cannot really compare > to Adobe Acrobat Pro. > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 13:46:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4AC2B6C9B for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:46:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497JVx6TL9z3HNy for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:46:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.142.225]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 544D14E65C for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:46:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Is the freebsd website down? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200423130756.GA36310@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <89688b2d-9434-cf12-2171-7d62904ee0f5@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:46:31 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200423130756.GA36310@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497JVx6TL9z3HNy X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[225.142.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.912,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.905,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (0.29), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.14), asn: 160(0.11), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:46:35 -0000 On 4/23/20 8:07 AM, The Doctor via freebsd-questions wrote: > All right, just tried freebsd-update and > pkg update with portsnap ready to go and > nothing. > > Just went to freebsd.org's website and looks like nothing is there? > All looks good for me. Updates went without a hitch - run them yesterday. When reporting a problem (though I'm neither affiliated with FreeBSD nor will be able to solve one), it is always advisable to give all information, specifically demonstrating that you have ruled out the possibility is on your side. Just a suggestion. If you have account elsewhere, verify what you see (or don't see) from that other segment of network. Valeri > > What is happening? > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 15:00:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE692B9445 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:00:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peo@nethead.se) Received: from ns1.nethead.se (ns1.nethead.se [5.150.237.139]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ns1.nethead.se", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497L7s2p1Cz3NS2 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:00:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peo@nethead.se) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at Nethead AB DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nethead.se; s=NETHEADSE; t=1587654000; bh=YTpXXI3ie3VDiOs0FIX2UlYW7v6ZwJY5zyVIX6r5MBw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=OJ1CikjgqdXDJ7bV5K7/SPgmqoE+If+pi1X0LKJuLepupgmwhrZdl0/4iRI+VkA8M 2GDEC3R5F4yQEtqSXAzsTj6TAwrqeE3AgE3v6VPG+YPs5g+weOIiyaVRa/bPpNjvjI 3f8sXiVboqddBlxxx6WK31D48srRu5WZ2NqZT1Ec= Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3e1efa0d-0b09-8612-d291-fa03b6537926@defert.com> From: Per olof Ljungmark Message-ID: <3dabad2c-3716-8f2b-7ed0-0e6e54cae406@nethead.se> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:59:57 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497L7s2p1Cz3NS2 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=nethead.se header.s=NETHEADSE header.b=OJ1Cikjg; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=nethead.se; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of peo@nethead.se designates 5.150.237.139 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=peo@nethead.se X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.90 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[nethead.se:s=NETHEADSE]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:5.150.237.139]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[nethead.se:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[nethead.se,none]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-2.90)[ip: (-9.80), ipnet: 5.150.192.0/18(-4.90), asn: 8473(0.24), country: SE(-0.03)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8473, ipnet:5.150.192.0/18, country:SE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:00:10 -0000 On 2020-04-23 12:16, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 at 10:32, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: >> >> Also recent versions of LibreOffice can import/export and edit PDF files I >> am using with success and its in the ports :-) > > Yes, but the quality and the rendering of even simple text-only pdf > documents is atrocious! If the document to be edited is text only, > it's just better to convert it to text, edit it and then reconvert it > back to pdf. Otherwise, if there are pictures or multi columns, I > can't see any professional alternatives to Acrobat Pro. > Depending on what one wants to achieve, Inkscape can read and write pdf's, albeit one page at a time. -- Per From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 15:51:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9662BAF57 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:51:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497MH50Khzz3xMg for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:51:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.34.44]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MiuGK-1ixnYY3pBs-00et3G for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:51:27 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:51:26 +0200 From: Polytropon To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Audio recording on demand (level + duration) Message-Id: <20200423175126.e9eea9fb.freebsd@edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Mi0WJ/MMsoi4ww3A6UgaKOG+jJVbDVw9J06Oh61ZRBh5D3pfSvy KNpoH776+gRh3Ig5HI+OnAeCHDoMeQioiNX7OAtQlLWQyLCLn2uEwpDh2bSn3PExYF5OohP ZdCH/WQn/HS4PEyijjqo4JSeBiQzZNrZpdxjw/qfGArOdOc9JYBAjnROHw2xTzfaGZcAkMH lF4Y4Xri5B8fmEeJWHJnw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:VsrIeL883Mg=:WmWUmkQ4Rx+lqx4Fw/R4Xk BngoFHSpHFZTjsGfQwS3tfqYDs6rj/XGc08sgLypbqwMs8fP7D0wwINjz3joDFZkym8jSVEFG QB1ZZL79Z0VTZ44HdaxF8tWJ2lXqbyFescV2oes/LRSclk1LlwumgJMr6kKzq66VuQLMlrqhb NVMQDrQ7P6NcR2sAb2xIsi2aLgQseiNDMHAXb//1EneOP9dmL3Q3j+24VmyxsGtcyZBWnKPRY gtDDondb8tNrKlw7GDhpLu+sOmsufyGFkd+F7vJAuDJhBOn6PmzlqtE7IqPLkGMk0SdfDXcSW pJs09NkLB6T1+yCjeXppEHYCYL5M8XoCanzULLxs30I6rRts+lGIoYyargzBU/0JUUcGvcro5 qdpuCvnG3903z8B5Cytj7zkIwyP/ZSRFPWzD1caN3e1jhe3mIJR7BxIw5IjADkQakPpqVuWap /44z3io9qhNUuGizAXQwWYVqnWYIn2OYYWhIVbedMq9zCwhu1zUtp6yQVjica7NSZcEuwarB3 rknzLWzY83h7FtJo9OHal7yQjQtgPHR0vRxUk3SSuhiyt0sOXVcgtJogPufQFWuYnSJHfmnaN JCUXnkFQxZkaO6CVXaQQaBQqe6eZ6EpFvEpgiolgydwfAwBS0509HUqbVHo4IgyGpyYmJ2nR7 3aSccUhGMiRBNKFe7otPPpGLyRvb+VCVOqO6f0TjRnvfd4kdBiOioCZxiB+SDgfitcVRYDX+v TawL5yAaqVYV4/fuQW4iiHR5/1L2LH41UOsRe42khIip127Gqp348f8IymOxbKFxTEDhkJ87M AyYfMS63rZuGytNX7EHAZko1T97KZzNMgm5MMs6Hn6ELdBLEg1jxhkYyfH8JUCaQOapOxDR X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497MH50Khzz3xMg X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.48 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[44.34.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.86)[0.858,0]; IP_SCORE(0.23)[ip: (0.30), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.20), asn: 8560(2.07), country: DE(-0.02)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.995,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:51:30 -0000 For an amateur radio project, I need a way to have a system that does "record on demand". This will be the setting: I have a receiver on a specific frequency. It uses a built-in squelch in FM mode, so when there is no signal, the device is silent - it works like a typical scanner, but for one frequency. What I want a connected computer (using the line-in or the microphone input, need to check levels) is to do something like in this pseudocode: continuously monitor audio input if volume > 0: create UTC timestamp (YYYY-MM-DD_HH:MM:SS) start recording (in background) if volume still = 0 again send TERM signal do recorder recorder closes file (valid file!) if duration of file > 10 seconds: convert file to MP3 (in background) rename file using timestamp else: remove file I'd like to create the "wrapper" as a simple shell script. So when this system runs for a while, I will have certain files, let's say 2020-04-23_17:00:01.mp3 2020-04-23_17:35:28.mp3 2020-04-23_21:19:57.mp3 ... and so on ... which are all more than 10 seconds in duration and contain what has been received on the frequency. The restriction on the duration will make sure no noise will be recorded, only the desired signals. An option would be to add the duration to the filename (2020-04-23_21:19:57_00:24:13.mp3 - a file that contains 24 min 13 sec audio). My question is: What file can I monitor (and how) to obtain an information about _if_ there is some audio input? I'd probably use the rec command from the sox package for recording, and probably something like lame for MP3 conversion. Any pointers are welcome. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 17:11:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE27F2BD69F for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:11:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@jdev.sent.com) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497P3s3Qq1z444Q for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:11:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@jdev.sent.com) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D52B6C0 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap36 ([10.202.2.86]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:11:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sent.com; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=85Fc+9UPO612wZ8b7e7lup6NIlfifL6 lJOuAknjNA/I=; b=RcT/t7Ks7vVbX10Mi4oXW+fAd6s08hfUnyoAFi0WVg8XANz Yq36fDP4IZyEhuAmvVmkL6QfMKQEIJyN5BWLARdndK/eqVmbQtJeY2achC3KOovK pn8meqgNY/g64+sf3VzNmojYtgZeo2GucwkkMJT5kAq3tCCFc1698jXYK+U4pBKj 2z7ZTkbqskqo27DzU2EmpQz2747jMrejJeViX5VHiJ8d/TK9MjvmDRKnLUcJCYjS S9xAOMUTLuWFY+92E9kMIsdRCcTjXrFb+iOQ+BjpZVK5Bw3mymIkcv+LgoEfJsPd LHs+Juxcbz0LmP/wgm8oC0iohDfXF5vbRfKfLdw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=85Fc+9 UPO612wZ8b7e7lup6NIlfifL6lJOuAknjNA/I=; b=KTy0ktkOpzNLzgaLe505Va Wt7J8wBDaaI8nuZnprLpIuDgv/FpIB164mKZ+DWTRc4vbq3BqoeG7DDFpU3e+REs oOCg8CehGHFUKavUn4Wjwv9u80VV5D+/5LnTPiaZueuCJltN02cO3qr75CcetxAH HTxkZw3RMZE1ge0l9cjS0eCSYCBnpIHkoC/yJIS4TrKbiifVaW0GR8VcZPhx03lu e0qRwhIfQGPtrKRj6v5AqmFng/z5332gC49beg0SG+izb6BJ/S+qcY0E1O8nnlkc IdgYupa3ObexpphYPlnnQrYkqAvqs/MTQIvlGlqvMIq4qMKKjZd5atDx5jXqwlsA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrgeelgdekvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomheplfhorhgurghnuceofhhrvggvsghsugesjhguvghvrdhsvghn thdrtghomheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpegtvggurhhordhinhhfohdpfhhrvggvsghsugdroh hrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehf rhgvvggsshgusehjuggvvhdrshgvnhhtrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 84EDB1880062; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:11:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-dev0-351-g9981f4f-fmstable-20200421v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <8ca2ffcb-8bb9-4a99-aaf1-cf1d83ffe9b3@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3e1efa0d-0b09-8612-d291-fa03b6537926@defert.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:11:29 -0700 From: Jordan To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497P3s3Qq1z444Q X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=sent.com header.s=fm3 header.b=RcT/t7Ks; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=KTy0ktkO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=sent.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@jdev.sent.com designates 64.147.123.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@jdev.sent.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.59 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[sent.com:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.147.123.21]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; IP_SCORE(-3.50)[ip: (-9.86), ipnet: 64.147.123.0/24(-4.92), asn: 11403(-2.69), country: US(-0.05)]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[sent.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[sent.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[21.123.147.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:64.147.123.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_WWW(0.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:11:54 -0000 LibreOffice Draw doesn't allow extracting of pages into new PDF's via Draw's GUI. From some basic playing around with it one would need to print to PDF first which is yet another step, additional clicks, etc. Also I just tried a primarily text document (which is what I work with all day long) and it was all editable but not the same look/feel/font as the original PDF document that I needed to extract pages from. LibreOffice, as much as I love the suite of tools, is not the ideal solution for my particular PDF needs. -- Jordan On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, at 2:32 AM, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Also recent versions of LibreOffice can import/export and edit PDF files I > am using with success and its in the ports :-) > > > -- > CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 17:46:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AAD2BEAD5 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:46:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@johnea.net) Received: from mail.johnea.net (johnea.net [98.173.229.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497PrG0K1Kz46x2 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:46:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@johnea.net) Received: from [192.168.100.201] (w520.johnea.net [192.168.100.201]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.johnea.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 40A755F2383C; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: About wayland To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200421175910.GB62660@mithril.foucry.net> <2374cb33-48f6-4bac-54ca-ca8aedd4650f@list.199903.xyz> From: freebsd@johnea.net Cc: Jacques Foucry Message-ID: <7bd4d54c-79d6-e8b1-e2fe-ab923691d145@johnea.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 10:46:44 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US-large Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497PrG0K1Kz46x2 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@johnea.net designates 98.173.229.12 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@johnea.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.80 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.926,0]; IP_SCORE(0.41)[asn: 22773(2.12), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[johnea.net]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22773, ipnet:98.173.228.0/22, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:46:54 -0000 On 2020-04-22 09:55, Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 01:22, Philip wrote: >> >> Just curious, who is Wayland? a people name? > > http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Wayland-Beyond-X-1432046.html > > "Høgsberg had the inspiration for Wayland while driving through the > town of Wayland in Massachusetts, which gave the display server its > name." > The article linked above provides a description, as well as the origin of the name, but it still didn't state what i would consider to be the fundamental difference between wayland and X. (at least not in high level terms) I'm not a developer of the internals of X, or wayland, just a user of the high level graphical frameworks. So my perspective is as a user, not a developer. X provides a framework of graphical primitives, e.g.: draw a window, draw a drop down box, draw a button, etc. The X server then converts these primitives into the raster of pixels that displays each of these features on the screen. In wayland, each application is responsible for directly creating the raster of pixels for the entire window rectangle it is allocated on the screen. Wayland then combines the pixels for all of the running applications to create the complete image as displayed on the screen. Therefore wayland is referred to as a compositor. It combines all of the bitmaps into the complete screen. Applications written in frameworks such as GTK+ or Qt can be ported easily to wayland, because the framework provides the primitives for "draw a button", "draw a window", etc, and then converts these into a final bitmap, instead of converting them into X compatible primitives. Wayland also provides an X server emulation: XWayland. It supports programs expecting the X rendering primitives. Providing backwards compatibility for X server based applications. As always, wikipedia is your friend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)#Differences_between_Wayland_and_X I'm sure my perspective is narrow and naive, but my impression is that the fundamental difference is that X provides primitives for rendering graphical objects, such as buttons and menus, while wayland expects each application to provide a complete bitmap for it's rectangle and composites all the application's bitmaps together to form the complete display. Hope this helps provide a high level perspective... John From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 19:05:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8163B2C08BA for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:05:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from hillend.cent.gla.ac.uk (hillend.cent.gla.ac.uk [130.209.16.102]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497Rb23p29z4Chn for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:05:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk ([130.209.14.164]) by hillend.cent.gla.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1jRhAB-0006RT-Qe for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:05:31 +0100 Received: from cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) by cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:05:31 +0100 Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.21.56) by cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:05:31 +0100 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=M+/x8isKcqcSHp1z8qeuAA0RG6J/WjGJ5pP3ObirzkDjp+gXe2ZwFJ9776E7mcGyfoQ2FE/D6DbI5sowfwwSAT3mxWGhQCvhKQ/OQzuGn18kFh0zxWaKfAqa2bmpbIl4OuGVrFp7L19YjtX1HEIupexww1ny8NEaR/PM0iMd6hlJEJqqIx/R1PiH2UW6BNUMM9zaCz9yXjku63ZEHnjSLuTXfq8hvUwALCU78QvtK9I2eEscu7yNm8W/iC3fuQ36kMC9Oqg2/1jpGg5h7XEFLvzlxqY5bakNEug9KTyHU6V5Tb9MCOuFIRa7q0Z0frJjRwQtfTvTG40GP8QpkzHUcg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=BlKQZNYpJpZL89odjw/cxH209JN/PA078FHW64n7zbE=; b=Arv5hx/vI2kp5sJU01XlfyTJpQfc7I3kutmXRZPUPwjih5gyruM47HOXrr0J4Iep/RqEEDoUOQaURpVZFVgLkwUtqN0Mw6lZmMeMorTmQ1iobFQIojA3Godo9NZBSxp8RLtyv4uUv8KUip4FDuzmC/T2t8FXch5oMOBtBKzfTkvtn15HhUSDDKxE7Pw+oZ1GvVmBn8Xiq5J5lrHV4v6DdevF+rbBzHHBOxCASixshxxNK0MKJTsxJa/o3CNmBlj+Br10/e1Q01cJd4iKe+ZdNbiJ+8///PWU5yVJHCEVCvaYC/ANjDEY/u+YsDqyrnHP7nGIWGdmTtoIL3UncjQVIQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=glasgow.ac.uk; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=glasgow.ac.uk; dkim=pass header.d=glasgow.ac.uk; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gla.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=BlKQZNYpJpZL89odjw/cxH209JN/PA078FHW64n7zbE=; b=HnCb2zOD9cjDR4f5hpwbeOwI1Lk/IKvQvVJNYnQRW+aexD60I8587RdK/NF+NpOScafA+IK2ykfOyNFpAG0i4wPt+ORPlE9O2RF+sJ2lHs/56jdspW02jom+vzO1mvSbtPry/uyMahaM7geIiuaSfO90Rv8bkdHhHLHlt1p6WaI= Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.144.19) by CWXP265MB0184.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.254.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2937.13; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:05:30 +0000 Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd]) by CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2921.032; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:05:30 +0000 From: "Norman Gray" To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: blacklistd: what does it detect? 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On 23 Apr 2020, at 11:24, Norman Gray wrote: > On 20 Apr 2020, at 12:43, Norman Gray wrote: > > >> I've enabled blacklistd on a 12.1 machine accessible to the open >> internet, but it's not blocking as many failed ssh attempts as I >> expect. Am I misunderstanding something? > > > Is there documentation anywhere (outside of the source) of how > blacklistd and sshd interact? > > There seems to be very little correlation between what I find in > auth.log and what blacklistd is acting on, as reported by > blacklistctl. Addresses seem to be blocked which barely appear in the > log, and not blocked after making multiple appearances in one message > or another. I received an off-list pointer to (thank you!), which is a YouTube video of a good 2015 talk by the blacklistd developer, Christos Zoulas, talking about the design of the daemon. There's nothing here which isn't, really, in the other documentation in the FreeBSD manual and the various manpages, but it provides a very useful overview of the approach and goals, which has given me, at least, a much clearer idea of what blacklistd is and isn't doing. Basically: * blacklistd-supporting daemons, such as the sshd in FreeBSD, tell the blacklistd daemon 'consider blocking this IP' or 'this IP is OK', on the basis of some criterion compiled into that daemon (ie, there's nothing to configure here) * any other logging the (eg) sshd daemon does is for human information only, and may or may not straightforwardly correspond to what it said to the blacklistd daemon. Thus... > My immediate goal is to cut down noise in the 'daily security run' > log, and if that's chattering about connection attempts that > sshd/blacklistd think aren't worth acting on, then I'm going to feel > tempted to start fiddling with /etc/periodic/security/800.loginfail > (which would probably be a bad idea). ...if blacklistd is up and running, then there seems to be a case for omitting at least some reporting of login failures. How I do that in a neat and maintainable way is of course a separate question. Best wishes, Norman -- Norman Gray : http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/it/ Research IT Coordinator SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK Charity number SC004401 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 20:12:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD0B2C1FBC for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:12:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497T4433mjz4H60 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:12:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from cds220.dcs.int.inet ([10.0.153.144]) by shaw.ca with ESMTP id RhyEjnjv162brRhyFjZtgf; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:57:16 -0600 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1587671836; bh=bSWNgfC19Fi3joZRhZFihOy5u43zdXItp4Cnki5fKww=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=H4wxfHueVhpdXACs0TfKC++aWv/1+iX/9ElvX1jhozZ9ANycySnvP7M2y8yN1UaUY q1pmAouZMKD88IOrmao+o6Cuqj4R6YPjA31VicA8Hf6c0AC5QDHfcg5bl1cBIJi7Tf dRM1ciqdihqB6r1sI+uq7MVd+eqxELSzxCEwofiSlKALMM/QNdAT/VM0PtcEexTZgD YPraiqEE0IrhpTVPJifAv87b9xgEOZqsy9M7E4bYK4rdbUv5ZUF6n1Ae1qscgceikx p9t+DDPHBu36SjJpiOY1uCwRo2t8MDZEi01dqgACbRx527CPt60M9YZ4AYW6FQCL8k 7xO/XL/JX7lMQ== X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=LKf9vKe9 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=YjOmSjUxhsfmstj0eziGpw==:117 a=FKkrIqjQGGEA:10 a=on0NmgUIp3IA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=UD7uQ7OiAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=GUfD1UccAAAA:8 a=i3xLFJut1bMYGsJr7OoA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-FEs8UIgK8oA:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=Zkq0o-JBKtHmMz2AGXNj:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=-EiQn41SfbDD0E51JUit:22 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:57:14 -0600 (MDT) From: Dale Scott To: Jordan Cc: freebsd-questions Message-ID: <337118591.153274961.1587671834712.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <8ca2ffcb-8bb9-4a99-aaf1-cf1d83ffe9b3@www.fastmail.com> References: <3e1efa0d-0b09-8612-d291-fa03b6537926@defert.com> <8ca2ffcb-8bb9-4a99-aaf1-cf1d83ffe9b3@www.fastmail.com> Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [162.223.103.50, 162.223.103.50] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.15_GA_3899 (ZimbraWebClient - GC81 (Win)/8.8.15_GA_3895) Thread-Topic: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options Thread-Index: vYIY24Qt1atDT0bF/3X5MWD8hD0BmA== X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGXGDyBMG7EF4DuZsq8HltbA6MDwtVV4HyVnMEjEebX3fBaFjHKwCpB40JXDD0HsxCcmt8m2Dmf+rG696sPj+A6fZqpbS10iwWbHWypt1QP4MGnggS9f 98c+pI7az3GhUSmKSaERLGJP/SkJJEcOz9Ygo/LvC75Hj0lEt1ovjv2t5cqj0fXZeuU4Ve6/iQWppJ76HgWFZveioZWqNOKkKDfKTY6m87Q7/pvK4EIFgr4M X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497T4433mjz4H60 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=H4wxfHue; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=shaw.ca; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dalescott@shaw.ca designates 64.59.134.13 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dalescott@shaw.ca X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[shaw.ca:s=s20180605]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.59.134.0/25]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[shaw.ca:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[shaw.ca,none]; IP_SCORE(-2.52)[ip: (-6.68), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.28), asn: 6327(-2.56), country: CA(-0.09)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[13.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[shaw.ca.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:12:22 -0000 I _believe_ it is possible to create scripted LibreOffice behaviors. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jordan" > To: "freebsd-questions" > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 11:11:29 AM > Subject: Re: PDF Documents Manipulation Software options > LibreOffice Draw doesn't allow extracting of pages into new PDF's via Draw's > GUI. From some basic playing around with it one would need to print to PDF > first which is yet another step, additional clicks, etc. Also I just tried a > primarily text document (which is what I work with all day long) and it was all > editable but not the same look/feel/font as the original PDF document that I > needed to extract pages from. LibreOffice, as much as I love the suite of > tools, is not the ideal solution for my particular PDF needs. > > -- > Jordan > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, at 2:32 AM, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: >> Also recent versions of LibreOffice can import/export and edit PDF files I >> am using with success and its in the ports :-) >> >> >> -- >> CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 20:25:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B962C2687 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:25:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497TM44vBfz4J1G for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:25:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:25:18 -0700 Subject: Re: best upgrade process for server To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <1810714722.149383351.1587616694832.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <618aed37-a64b-9471-4353-366460d057d7@holgerdanske.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:25:17 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1810714722.149383351.1587616694832.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497TM44vBfz4J1G X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.975,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.64)[ipnet: 184.104.0.0/15(0.43), asn: 6939(-3.60), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; URIBL_PBL(0.01)[dalescott.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[27.128.105.184.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:25:22 -0000 On 2020-04-22 21:38, Dale Scott wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like suggestions for a new basic server. I'm currently running my website and a number of web apps I use to demo enterprise work processes on a single-disk 11.3 server with a 2nd disk for periodic backups of the web apps and the occasional file system dump. I'm concerned about backups and recovery, and would like replace the server with a new ZFS-based system and a pool of three or four 1T SSDs. I'm not interested in laboring over spec's and tweaking the system out and I'm not storing the world's movie collection. I favor basic, mature parts and minimum time spent making decisions. > > Is the following migration strategy reasonable? Can I restore a dump from my single-disk system to a new bhyve/ZFS system? Can I copy the virtualbox-ose virtual disk file to the new system and bhyve will know what to do? I'm using the virtualbox-ose NAT to remap the vm IP address and port, will bhyve be able to do this? > > Thanks for your recommendations. > > ## CURRENT SERVER > > wwww.dalescott.net:8080 <------------------------------------+ > | > | > www.dalescott.net <--\ +--------+-------+ > mantisbt.dalescott.net <--+ | ERPNext/Linux | > proqjector.dalescott.net <--+ +-----------------------------------+ > nextcloud.dalescott.net <--+-----+ Apache/MySQL/PHP | virtualbox|ose | > +------------------+----------------+ > | FreeBSD 11.3 | > +-----------------------------------+ > emo (DHCP ISP) | Core2 66000 | > <-----------------------------------+ 6GB RAM | > +------+----------------------------+ > | > +----+ 200G HD - ada0s1a on / > +----+ 200G HD - ada1p1 on /backup > > ## PROPOSED SERVER > > wwww.dalescott.net:8080 <------------------------------------+ > | > | > www.dalescott.net <--\ | > mantisbt.dalescott.net <--+ | > proqjector.dalescott.net <--+ +------------------+ | > nextcloud.dalescott.net <--+-----+ Apache/MySQL/PHP | | > +------------------+----------------+ > | FreeBSD 11.3 | ERPNext/Linux | > +------------------+----------------+ > | bhyve | > +-----------------------------------+ > emo (DHCP ISP) | ?? CPU | > <-----------------------------------+ ?? RAM | > +------+----------------------------+ > | > \----+ 4x 1T SSD I have a SOHO LAN with one server for Samba and CVS. I do not host any public services, so as not to saturate my residential WAN connection. I use VPS's for public services. When it was time to retire my previous desktop/ Linux SOHO server with an up-to-date FreeBSD server, I bought a lightly used Dell PowerEdge T30 with one Xeon E3-1225 v5 processor, one 8 GB ECC memory module, one 1 TB SATA HDD, and one DVD+/-RW drive. (It is important that computers running ZFS have ECC memory.) I removed the 1 TB HDD, added one 8 GB ECC memory module, added one 2.5" SSD for the system drive and data cache, and added two 3 TB SATA HDD's for data (3 TB mirror). I find it is easier to put the jails on the system drive than to put them into the data pool (ZFS property dedup=verify). Total price was around US$ 700. The platform is more than adequate for my needs. Switching to FreeBSD and ZFS has required a lot of learning and doing. The Lucas books were invaluable. Backups, archives, images, etc., required new thinking and new infrastructure (hardware, software, and scripts). I ended up building another server with another 3 TB mirror to receive replication streams (US$ 250 and existing parts). My advice would be to keep your existing server and disaster preparedness infrastructure fully functional while you build an end-to-end replacement. There are many learning curves to climb and goals to be achieved along the way. Expect failures, retreats, and multiple attempts as you gain experience. Be prepared for hardware failures and operator errors. Don't be afraid to buy additional hardware. Upgrade to FreeBSD 12.1, if possible. Use jails, if possible. Put your operating system on a single, small, fast SSD to simplify system administration and disaster preparedness (ZFS property copies=2). Build your ZFS pools from mirrored devices. I would start with two drives for data and VM's. If you anticipate needing more space, start with larger drives. If you later require more space and/or performance, stripe another equal-sized mirror onto the pool. Using all SSD's should give excellent performance, but HDD's with fast cache and/or ZIL devices might be a viable alternative (depending upon workload). David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 22:57:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B4F2C610A for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:57:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@theory14.net) Received: from bacon.theory14.net (bacon.theory14.net [45.55.200.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497Xkg3f6Hz4RS8 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:57:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@theory14.net) Received: from remote.theory14.net (remote.theory14.net [72.66.31.190]) by bacon.theory14.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 02A73125ECE; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 18:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from grackle.int.theory14.net (grackle.int.theory14.net [192.168.10.52]) by remote.theory14.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C38E4429D; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 18:57:24 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=theory14.net; s=mail; t=1587682644; bh=Z3KCNrcMSWc+3b4UMyBkkBbyvbrmSBXhiSm5pvkFoqs=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=oXec+ofOPWeAUldj4DsJsYQBHrxojVVNRXICGl+bclgbqDiYOCOUu3b8RAd2EvsUp dOzBagPAGuTe/FL32Cd/646uuCYgnR63Ts7bjM28BQ8KMb52azorhp1N8Ov/kLEy4u Sp9cmYQXN9hnZBEVs2pKAbeia6ssSc9BHMlQyyNs= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: best upgrade process for server From: Chris Gordon In-Reply-To: <618aed37-a64b-9471-4353-366460d057d7@holgerdanske.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 18:57:24 -0400 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <22A86243-7351-4A2F-8B43-10E80C61901E@theory14.net> References: <1810714722.149383351.1587616694832.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <618aed37-a64b-9471-4353-366460d057d7@holgerdanske.com> To: David Christensen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497Xkg3f6Hz4RS8 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=theory14.net header.s=mail header.b=oXec+ofO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=theory14.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@theory14.net designates 45.55.200.27 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@theory14.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.16 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[theory14.net:s=mail]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.979,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[theory14.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[theory14.net,none]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(1.21)[ipnet: 45.55.192.0/18(4.89), asn: 14061(1.22), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.192.0/18, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[190.31.66.72.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:57:32 -0000 > On Apr 23, 2020, at 4:25 PM, David Christensen = wrote: >=20 > When it was time to retire my previous desktop/ Linux SOHO server with = an up-to-date FreeBSD server, I bought a lightly used Dell PowerEdge T30 = with one Xeon E3-1225 v5 processor, one 8 GB ECC memory module, one 1 TB = SATA HDD, and one DVD+/-RW drive. (It is important that computers = running ZFS have ECC memory.) I would clarify the statement about ECC memory in that ECC memory is = important for any system where memory errors are significantly = detrimental to the applications running on the server whereas to justify = the additional cost. =20 As for file systems, ECC memory is no more or less important for ZFS, = UFS, ext*, NTFS, etc. The only case where I think the argument for ZFS = could be stronger than other file systems is by virtue of ZFS typically = using more memory for the ARC and thereby theoretically increasing the = probability of a read serviced from ARC experiencing a bit flip. This = thinking, though, applies to applications, too -- as more memory is = used, the probability of encountering a memory error increases. The = idea that ZFS uniquely "requires" ECC memory to be "safe" often seems to = stem back to an a blog post about the "scrub of death". This has been = debunked many times. Allan Jude discusses this is far more detail and = expertise than I can starting at about minute 57 of Episode 200 of the = BSDNOw podcast: = https://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/116226/getting-scrubbed-to-death-bsd-n= ow-200/ That said, if you can afford ECC memory, you're better than without it. = You are even better with backups that are on something other than the = machine you're backing up. You're even better if you can periodically = test those backups and validate that they are indeed good and = recoverable. Chris= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Apr 23 23:08:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9AE2C6512 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:08:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497Xz82vWLz4Rwt for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:08:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id o127so8454347iof.0 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:08:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=s0q3prEETH6wAJAvATwimtZrBFsqKBaucaMuWvzkbZ8=; b=KEflUYYcpq7l1hyolYE2tCmnI2z0M88jfVG1dQWHbYCJuxMWgVMoqXYKwvhh/Z189H J61S44xQMTNK5jV6Z6W1rBiuSKSBzVGdSBYq6Yz7vADZoupFCI+NFRrORqxsAtOSF9KM pRtJ8t2rOvcGZtnxRobyDjsWCJxVnw6lg7dqy20xiT8OmONJQwOrNZ5TlBzz3wlbsfKt iVuD47WU4JLCwBM4+fam26ss98ZtY5YKOtcZmvzDj7F+5Uu8wJt/3AcSN5qwlO4LaxDz sJ0xPYoemZEX6c4NkJcETfRyxl4ca1O0P3Xm/EUfIGztyMecSBi9QrGijJbTOVGX+0AK /Vww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=s0q3prEETH6wAJAvATwimtZrBFsqKBaucaMuWvzkbZ8=; b=SqJuCIp2rmf2k8Phv7c5ixmHE/IYzXzjqYemmSdoOh/7tzQKZjh9rYYfTNJcwCJg3L 1k3ReS5zm+WCmTiDD3GYfrABA+uas0acsuEpw11LGXN2pyPbvuPIIoOUylE4gysBt0KV zdpTqyrhET32KQGAXBFnCrfa5DBEDXXyPRyKmOuigIvgxcqWEUhIVIzcQQ4CkSPeZuHQ OGD/HODELIKQF/76gQoZ4g1BDXpSaSgq2u0IbQ0L68tuKOoGxXaD73/7AFyukOEBMhuu 4OzE6muvaBvjFXl5c6kI1PJY3olBxBoABuKVcGs6o+MMF2/429aMxNzNLx2DVD4J/8MG k/Pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub6loXwCBpmoTmZQ7EQvWEiXx/DijwvVSNWOlRyIyCm+mY4N1Uf IslWX6Gq0xIqiHTOuAaXN93Zou5h9kWl0TcpEKpwgREC X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKsu8HUM6Ut+FxiC9Wq6NgjSY0EXxcLSc8oF4L/QXou8WMCbsh4tZwtpr465GD3wUWk1sEKU+ydQ+eD2IWB2RU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:7d0c:: with SMTP id c12mr5892519ioq.83.1587683299159; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:08:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:08:08 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497Xz82vWLz4Rwt X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=KEflUYYc; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.42), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[5.3.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:08:21 -0000 It seems like there are more then normal (than in years past) people on the -questions@ list that for whatever reason just *HATE* FreeBSD for technical and non-technical reasons. If you hate FreeBSD so much why are you on this list and why do you use FreeBSD? I suspect in many cases they use FreeBSD because it is more stable then their favorite OS (linux). Hint: that stability is in many cases due to the very reasons you hate FreeBSD (conservative adoption of features for example, not using GPL as much as possible, so called "out-dated" features and lack of "modern" hardware support -- the last two are either subjective or just out right incorrect). So why don't you stop attempting to change the things that made FreeBSD such a great OS and accept its users' reasons for not using/liking Linux. The development, business model and such of FreeBSD are designed to not have or at least mitigate most of the reasons that Linux leaves a bad taste in our mouths. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 00:09:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8F62C7F52 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 00:09:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lionfoxyx@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pl1-x62c.google.com (mail-pl1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497ZKh6qVCz4WXs for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 00:09:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lionfoxyx@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id s10so3090456plr.1 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:09:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=I2tygKb43Yxqd903RWURbo0rvmczus7sCG+TQu1a25g=; b=qHj/7ngBznucM7QRAaZ9ryY9ZkGbBFyeLEIaI97AeMDA56mfldqhUL5ZxenjXOQ49n VcummncS5aRV09nFEWTjcFfBRE57MyvK//5mEgDP1XaZldVNSIRCbSC3KoXavhaWoyWN dUMdf34R7zCZGJxzshERJJL8CYwdMnJ25w+8UqTC0l0A9ppnYfPjsmOTh5rSLZCMNzuz uthWhiemIc+klISNeRTh87/os+D90eG7ID583WElwjSmv6C8AL5YjG0czMgREO00MPn6 /OvLoWJ73r+7SkY/DAxMFef3XRJdNLiAiRykpjaFQtgtPVh93PEAe5xaK/T7JDAWRof/ ZxBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=I2tygKb43Yxqd903RWURbo0rvmczus7sCG+TQu1a25g=; b=mhfD8hM6+Ls4oXEmA5lxrFc/k+jhlNfvN4/GylOYTXfYeJgkxjeJj5ezDBe5DSMqeL TB+ZD7/o64SYmOQH/ELjd1MO0IGGN2ZhpyvJ0aQ2gipDzusICThoZWkWzG4X9V+gCyDo UEur+L9aSUyLhtTHazT8nLfLW1XnPZF1+zcfWjqBKiQmQTUr4Rjc1oho0nUOgIJwwhIH wDImY4bGfH7AhLenvoQl7H4CHv/G8M08tS8wuoOSKdbile5+X0WpeBZxtjdsF5K4r9qQ sG2rtRWc/T9yMoCrPqdeY8PXdhtLLDBsMxZ7QGfYD6Tbxl+/YMxw2lf/3CsuUj3rL0cs RnsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua3IsNW4BO43UZi4PanmQBeY/tu4GngMR+/5/PnlhVDpnJdrUCO 48Om1nrS9H0jA3aqwmZ//UXQq+b8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIrVosZ8mLWy4CzPdK1WQ7eZExk9AEnhRv3Ddt6G7gJrYbtKMNIxkeRw0YFPD8Mz4SZ2JtkCg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:589:: with SMTP id i9mr3332142pji.156.1587686967289; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.21.89.161] ([154.213.3.113]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f21sm3830462pfn.71.2020.04.23.17.09.26 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: =?UTF-8?B?5Luk54uQ5pyI5bym?= Message-ID: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:09:23 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497ZKh6qVCz4WXs X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=qHj/7ngB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lionfoxyx@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lionfoxyx@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.14 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[113.3.213.154.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.57)[-0.570,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.45), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.71)[0.710,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[c.2.6.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 00:09:29 -0000 I am on freebsd list but I do like freebsd :) due to it is more light and stable than others, as server running environment. freebsd is may not as good as linux for desktop environment IMO. regards. Aryeh Friedman wrote: > It seems like there are more then normal (than in years past) people on the > -questions@ list that for whatever reason just*HATE* FreeBSD for technical > and non-technical reasons. If you hate FreeBSD so much why are you on > this list and why do you use FreeBSD? I suspect in many cases they use > FreeBSD because it is more stable then their favorite OS (linux). Hint: > that stability is in many cases due to the very reasons you hate FreeBSD > (conservative adoption of features for example, not using GPL as much as > possible, so called "out-dated" features and lack of "modern" hardware > support -- the last two are either subjective or just out right incorrect). 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Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:06:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200423085443.18f00e9649e8c71867505550@sohara.org> <20200423113134.GB93186@trajan.stk.cx> In-Reply-To: <20200423113134.GB93186@trajan.stk.cx> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:05:58 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Arne Steinkamm Cc: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Ihor Antonov , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497cwM3DlVz4dLC X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=BMmGKM9f; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::143 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.16), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:06:12 -0000 On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 7:31 AM Arne Steinkamm wrote: > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 04:13:57AM -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > Linux had iSCSI before FreeBSD ( > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISCSI#Operating_systems) did and from the > get > > go there was huge pressure to use it instead of NFS because like > everything > > else in Linux iSCSI was newer, shinier and faster then NFS (not stopping > to > > see that any performance gain would be eaten up by any network having > > smaller bandwidth than local I/O devices, even slow ones like traditional > > drives). FreeBSD never stopped recommending NFS as the preferred > network > > storage method. > > There is no "preferred network storage method". > NAS and SAN technologies both have their pros and cons and the decission > which one suits best has to consider many factors. > Looking around almost every major linux dist discourages NFS in favor of almost anything else for example here is SUSE's official manual on network storage (never even mentions NFS directly as a primary option, only how to manage the ACL's if your on a legacy NFS system): https://documentation.suse.com/sles/12-SP4/single-html/SLES-storage/#part-net-storage > > The lack of a distributed filesystem comes to my mind thinking at FreeBSD > in > a Initiator role. > The base system is not designed to be kitchen sink... if you want different options look at sysutil/fuse Arne Steinkamm | Home: Mail: arnesteinkammcom > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 02:08:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284692CAE98 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:08:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497cz11BJTz4dTx for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:08:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id u11so8809400iow.4 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:08:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1U773toq7xxsPGAPBNJ4bppHNBOC5qMY24SP7R6QrSs=; b=J9GrvYELOZsr/Zt00TNlZT6mNy98TBcpKCV+Ixh3luW9lMd1bjrDIeeqlNEHaf1wY5 ElNc7jQdDyUBBbj0NhwG+LR+LV9XVqvdE/J3U4I2k2lDWxdRN5WMKaXxbtopvP728iM1 trUAip1vj7nZ7Zk5p8s6XMjrTNce/vExjKI1iIzpaow6VAEvRFlIZo4w6V8/mduAWJfy fUqOlbx4EKTTeAAdiRJkIZCQX/t66dMrLyhnYzOYYssvLNcnJvFyNXjMKpKlV0cvUeLO bknmebnktO2GWLPy7Vwm8W+RGG3M8gaZdD4q91o9kGXq+r7F5S8kuAIx3H/vrtctbfA3 2l/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1U773toq7xxsPGAPBNJ4bppHNBOC5qMY24SP7R6QrSs=; b=Uixo1Cy0IU1xtwmFWo1X1cC+Epcrvej3k1uD/MVD2IW8thDLWIQQejridou3pA2bUT p4Wf//2NmHcLY9tfZyEbxyrLKLvZTgxFwvQOkM690kn5QO//c/1+n8kmA+LKj3xhHFr1 EFG195EmGZGqBtnZfxbhlHIpaiJy2YpjXpBdI+PJOzawhkmvjErB/PadVM8f8hEGTjKb hsCOrPIfQlOe4pC3idRBqOKtII6K/NqUU3VLP0FSuzNQrDxBuP/u+EoBjyMpSY6KofBz NDw7PFQnh6aHyr2hg0GaqDpQZcueHcWPnqYU5NjG69cnznVOftxIlckpoo3vEmhlQMq/ 4SzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY0naMpD78BMonuYZnUVizAaYSqCcI27kl8U0bb/WGly5CAb88z NlmAK/YyXP42n+6zd6egx6SFoCzR0hBv5KUklVTVBv0a X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL02kGP4eD9wkbJww2AJo1F0/9EjKjXCANnsgd1nNTp8Ry6JXp2sTlEfl/NHarG04zXQHAjEEhs6z1bcyRv+XA= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9685:: with SMTP id m5mr6752159ion.36.1587694107764; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:08:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> <20200424011157.GB46556@neutralgood.org> In-Reply-To: <20200424011157.GB46556@neutralgood.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:08:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: Robert Huff , Polytropon , FreeBSD , "@lbutlr" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497cz11BJTz4dTx X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=J9GrvYEL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.34), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[c.2.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:08:30 -0000 On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 9:12 PM Kevin P. Neal wrote: > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 06:21:32PM -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > Unless I am wrong if I do: > > > > xhosts + > > sudo su - other user > > setenv DISPLAY :0.0 > > xterm > > > > The new xterm is using the network stack. Since it is quiet common for > > Well, in the above example an X client would still be using the socket > located in "/tmp". > > If you want to explicitly use the network stack then: > setenv DISPLAY localhost:0.0 > > That'll go over the loopback interface instead of the filesystem socket. > Unless you did something weird with the address of "localhost", but that > would be exceptionally rare to say the least. > Not rare at all here is a line from the .login on my programming account (I use the account across several VM's and not just my desktop): setenv DISPLAY neomarx:0.0 -- > "A method for inducing cats to exercise consists of directing a beam of > invisible light produced by a hand-held laser apparatus onto the floor ... > in the vicinity of the cat, then moving the laser ... in an irregular way > fascinating to cats,..." -- US patent 5443036, "Method of exercising a cat" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 02:20:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB182CB3BE for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:20:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497dDR0hCwz4f9M for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:20:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id i3so8755090ioo.13 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:20:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jh+IVMQpnXVWs1jm97Jtzo7BW+GqnfzvFXWiWgBHo1I=; b=o8PFZokpYBkilgQjOU95Bsr9mZCIMjHuwl8rUa4tNtC3Ny4gGwo/2lDGXqXwXJsoRp bYNj3HnW898+l4anybuBCq77XhDolV+KaH0PQFlU9/Jn0+cetwEXIDVvMXp8CG5tAWbZ EW0jvlciNk34+2/SIphFfkzBST8otzpxkJpj1gnvKzYcE4EEax5qikaWnXAKjFJIaDph HqsuwiQeT88wHYTZfz4UpBC9nUl3vDABZfwZc0QcIugTNpM10RpCjwlDX1fZvR7r3Yud usGMy3SjR6UqfJrUMJed/VaEiWXJmOYbT6lFczwRZejnkRItB+hSty24xCRSGYANfNo4 Hg+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jh+IVMQpnXVWs1jm97Jtzo7BW+GqnfzvFXWiWgBHo1I=; b=r+N6e6PrBt7vl87tl31491TZ0x61251MAsfJfkfzSu9Bld1DlJKj8YFuLLlNRyTENb hvYOZ0Uh8hydz24vq0W1EFCU6O2HUsjaXPvOp12QjHryEp1rtswAxw/VCwRzGFjBGMjS rDsWSg2oaKQbLL+jvQmj2B1CSeUpOdbv+sqjV4qErn9uLIMgkmECUqST5FUgNZYewlna icLYtAg/n6r2OpLzzHbYb3o6FjrOuIiIWTQqTKt3e7zooaUKxHyJj/9RmZT42n4iV1+j vu45cEkDiU1yKqXopUW7x1ixP/YCBX8Y+MSM3MVcnjjTjjCi9J3Q0ZQPrrwP4ox2k8x6 86DA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuavHhJUqEBgsFKKoDOVM8+1lYAr1usRgtZacGzAMrqqOaiiFHUF dRWnhfcAhKK+zVpPn7rpEGq4bpF/3YAbybq7vs4vymO5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK4q4EEnKG7gYph9hrCH+3J4xqzy+WpgkNVKrwS1YSQ5fZ7C+5hXuO8qLc2qkiP8aATlrxyIQh1e2ED/PzWvR0= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:fc0d:: with SMTP id r13mr6458530ioh.89.1587694805770; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:20:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> <20200424011157.GB46556@neutralgood.org> <20200424021658.GC46556@neutralgood.org> In-Reply-To: <20200424021658.GC46556@neutralgood.org> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:19:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497dDR0hCwz4f9M X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=o8PFZokp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.18), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:20:07 -0000 On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:17 PM Kevin P. Neal wrote: > > The address of "localhost" is usually in /etc/hosts if you want a > reference. > Which is overiden by DNS via resolv.conf (why anyone would define it to be anything but 127.0.0.1 or :::1 is beyond me). > -- > Kevin P. Neal http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ > "Not even the dumbest terrorist would choose an encryption program that > allowed the U.S. government to hold the key." -- (Fortune magazine > is smarter than the US government, Oct 29 2001, page 196.) > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 03:23:42 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E882CD1B2 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 03:23:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ypankov@fastmail.com) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497fdn5S42z3F6j for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 03:23:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ypankov@fastmail.com) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 271BF5C05A6; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:23:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.com; h= subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm2; bh=9 mFl1PC5g3nAXPsvsLeyzA5OLQPDJxVZPmkVDVh2TkU=; b=t9j+zOGF/V0kapXCZ cwh5Umk1WRRMgISANUT/7x8EsjzODX98J3a8/5tDuPpXQ9cj0bqrfllVEqiIHOnv 5MWQfcx2vGqZ/lv4Hd6TuQ5V0Q51z1VOODi92+WOl0p1dxvDzrnr7Q2y/ykAG/75 BZ/pIT2c9lrvi2FLaRp7xFo7UDlbTQdgkwRialD9mhKmm0qfPL2Ws7bjrD9PqqfT xfIYnihow3Sd84nplpkTUQuXcurOUwZ8d26DpOjCRnf22ses92mvATEXcmpBkHgl 4DelzUWSIc7G16JyWCVXjJlwNllTa+KaZLOCH3YqZJ3YCTuoev9QDNZnn2tRjf7x uRyfg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=9mFl1PC5g3nAXPsvsLeyzA5OLQPDJxVZPmkVDVh2T kU=; b=rXy+udCtrhao7SFzj9BO1GRjqAOG2Hozk+WWFLBDxGhOo2PznlhYhB8o4 5QaW8XkpGRrRBclUFF75oO1rlullr88pdcJNuDO0zrUQL2ukMgyi+ei/++RHNAsb T+LCarFmdGa+5KZbWetvgu4p7/oekTetbLrJdebJdO8hTcNgFHdXGB4tgLYOT9Kj Mg5ObCMsxA0fbkvTKg3iHo8xrXMCU/P1TapH9460zMZEGo6jk38bsZfoQQQp6aYO Atbob0T41ZG7MRXguBgslEET1dCCBSCZeJJGX104CQB33VDGFAPy4oF2uX5Va0n4 rGgQVS56OyP7jtEwcr0YZ9J31PaJw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrhedtgdeiiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpegjuhhrihcu rfgrnhhkohhvuceohihprghnkhhovhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepke ehrddujeegrddvtdeirddvgeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghm pehmrghilhhfrhhomhephihprghnkhhovhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from mercury.lan (unknown [85.174.206.243]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4526A3065D74; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD To: Aryeh Friedman , "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: FreeBSD References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200421150741.28dd6309.freebsd@edvax.de> <24223.11679.688616.192643@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200422023243.GA81187@neutralgood.org> <20200424011157.GB46556@neutralgood.org> <20200424021658.GC46556@neutralgood.org> From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: <9a88e341-d288-5a2a-7f77-99db65f56dbc@fastmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 06:23:38 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497fdn5S42z3F6j X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=fastmail.com header.s=fm2 header.b=t9j+zOGF; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=rXy+udCt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=fastmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ypankov@fastmail.com designates 66.111.4.29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ypankov@fastmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.10 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:66.111.4.29]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[fastmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[fastmail.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[fastmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[243.206.174.85.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.85), ipnet: 66.111.4.0/24(-4.89), asn: 11403(-2.69), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[29.4.111.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[fastmail.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[fastmail.com:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 03:23:42 -0000 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 10:17 PM Kevin P. Neal wrote: > >> >> The address of "localhost" is usually in /etc/hosts if you want a >> reference. >> > > Which is overiden by DNS via resolv.conf (why anyone would define it to be > anything but 127.0.0.1 or :::1 is beyond me). Not really, it depends on 'hosts' database definition in /etc/nsswitch.conf, and by default it is 'files dns'. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 05:17:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F632CF704 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 05:17:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497j9S0sJdz3LhB for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 05:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from cds220.dcs.int.inet ([10.0.153.144]) by shaw.ca with ESMTP id RqiejG4txng7KRqifjMZPd; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:17:45 -0600 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1587705465; bh=ATMqEy/9zFm1p3nIX/nU6mitWsNZQksV7j3Vhq9+dQc=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=Kvz00hQEJlDOXYa7aP1lU0TbmpihKEDNbcONlDdszmMtz3KySvZc2YG5/a68UhDub LPBH0upMrPRtzP0Z7aBEy+ZNAGGFDAieOvEmAZHMyqtTpsbJnzxm/4jAVXx9muR6BL mZzf3l3hV0o+OY+Ls3JcXAyKmQtMjELy9P5Iu86B1JS/3/PG/BqlKr5qheWuJ40VTA H1LK+cZEKTB99d6tn//ZOYD52Uf8cmmXr+1w4OjxgXHnHWfVNz42/QTuynNfCe2QTt pHs/5R+XxDZIm0yCllcm5sMjMYyPEO8EvJedJhyD81GxgTp7vIhrF9ZuHTEbfJuZl4 Nd0cuR1x9PxOw== X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=ecemg4MH c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=YjOmSjUxhsfmstj0eziGpw==:117 a=FKkrIqjQGGEA:10 a=RDteU5_PNoYA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ZubcGFkXAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=lg_pg6YtvKUSJgDBlW4A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=kUx6feENxpTNjkNjdsbW:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:17:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Dale Scott To: David Christensen Cc: freebsd-questions Message-ID: <275658242.155675013.1587705464202.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <618aed37-a64b-9471-4353-366460d057d7@holgerdanske.com> References: <1810714722.149383351.1587616694832.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <618aed37-a64b-9471-4353-366460d057d7@holgerdanske.com> Subject: Re: best upgrade process for server MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [174.0.43.39, 174.0.43.39] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.15_GA_3899 (ZimbraWebClient - GC80 (Linux)/8.8.15_GA_3895) Thread-Topic: best upgrade process for server Thread-Index: x0YJ0oWDMEsHutWvcsBdzWP/WRAtTQ== X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfO0VmnlW2R7A+rtDFSvOwCqaY5JVZLpeMjTM49S9VLtDHP4gHob1Kp0djet9ADavNN4Q0QAa43V0/7jAC1gNu5YsDZ7q+p1o8+k55ofVci3Y0WdRcbtz 9fQNssImsSP1gm/lsTWRQneVMeq7/LBm60vCtL1k3pXnz6YwXgKFA2MuuOnddfDk2tkT/UkgiNHonNHZa5r7n+/6BDtpAByJ5oVybTHwCZdyxnd7kInZoIPr X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497j9S0sJdz3LhB X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=Kvz00hQE; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=shaw.ca; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dalescott@shaw.ca designates 64.59.134.9 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dalescott@shaw.ca X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[shaw.ca:s=s20180605]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[9.134.59.64.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.59.134.0/25]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[shaw.ca.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[shaw.ca:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[shaw.ca,none]; IP_SCORE(-2.53)[ip: (-6.73), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.28), asn: 6327(-2.56), country: CA(-0.09)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[9.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 05:17:49 -0000 > From: "David Christensen" > To: "freebsd-questions" > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2020 2:25:17 PM > Subject: Re: best upgrade process for server > On 2020-04-22 21:38, Dale Scott wrote: > I have a SOHO LAN with one server for Samba and CVS. I do not host any > public services, so as not to saturate my residential WAN connection. I > use VPS's for public services. I'm doing the same thing but with public facing services. Until I have the problem of too many users, getting my server connection essentially for free is too good a deal. A VPS on Digital Ocean with similar performance would be ~$20/month. > When it was time to retire my previous desktop/ Linux SOHO server with > an up-to-date FreeBSD server, I bought a lightly used Dell PowerEdge T30 > with one Xeon E3-1225 v5 processor, one 8 GB ECC memory module, one 1 TB > SATA HDD, and one DVD+/-RW drive. I have been watching for a Dell or HP chassis designed for four 2.5" SSDs. > My advice would be to keep your existing server and disaster > preparedness infrastructure fully functional while you build an > end-to-end replacement. Excellent advice! From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 06:53:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF012A9D52 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 06:53:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497lHy6VXdz3R5d for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 06:53:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) From: "@lbutlr" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Audio recording on demand (level + duration) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 00:53:28 -0600 References: <20200423175126.e9eea9fb.freebsd@edvax.de> To: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20200423175126.e9eea9fb.freebsd@edvax.de> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497lHy6VXdz3R5d X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.49 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.980,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.12)[ip: (-0.33), ipnet: 65.112.0.0/12(-0.06), asn: 209(-0.14), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[42.55.121.65.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 06:53:35 -0000 On 23 Apr 2020, at 09:51, Polytropon wrote: > continuously monitor audio input > if volume > 0: > create UTC timestamp (YYYY-MM-DD_HH:MM:SS) > start recording (in background) > if volume still =3D 0 again > send TERM signal do recorder > recorder closes file (valid file!) > if duration of file > 10 seconds: > convert file to MP3 (in background) > rename file using timestamp > else: > remove file My guess is that you need to do something like this: cat /dev/dsp > tmpfile Periodically copy and scan tmpfile for portions that have sound = levels above x% Clip those parts into new file Repeat scan until reaching ends fo file When entire file is scanned, delete copy and cat > /dev/null tmpfile The exact methods probably depend on the output of cat /dev/sndstat > I'd like to create the "wrapper" as a simple shell script. >=20 > So when this system runs for a while, I will have certain > files, let's say >=20 > 2020-04-23_17:00:01.mp3 > 2020-04-23_17:35:28.mp3 > 2020-04-23_21:19:57.mp3 > ... and so on ... If you process the file once per day, this is trivial, simply get the = start of the sound duration from the copy and add this to the dat = eyesteray. Even if you want to process the sound more frequently, it is = not difficult, just more tedious. > An option would be to add the duration > to the filename (2020-04-23_21:19:57_00:24:13.mp3 - a file > that contains 24 min 13 sec audio). Very easy to get the duration of your sound file from, for example, = ffmpeg. Keep in mind, I=E2=80=99m guessing here, but hopefully this will help at = least look at another direction and maybe figure out or find the answer = you need. --=20 I intend to live forever. So far, so good. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 08:06:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D668D2ABB3E for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:06:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100038be914.93016ee4d2db4499c9f14af20c4de270@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497mwN5kfXz4128 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:06:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c100038be914.93016ee4d2db4499c9f14af20c4de270@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587715605; x=1590307605; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=ooT3dmsMMKejMXBNFCtCXLCMV2Nbi7U+0AHB5RNUlK4=; b=dOvywS13Sziy5iSfbgetP3bGLDYh3W7TO1MG8dlRqkmqSk34jkry750M85ThXTHvYkiu1XcrLGOrhDnKrL83ULJuTHM+g3Udtb5CsbUlMLTCjg2Hlx85I2Ibn/52pu1mf2eUU8cJYnbfgoLh4tPeAnUiY6a7qJ1V+tE8XWti3IU= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDM4YmU5MTQuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.1]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 24 Apr 2020 04:06:38 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 24 Apr 2020 04:06:36 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jRtM3-0001Um-LQ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:06:35 +0100 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:06:35 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Polytropon Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Audio recording on demand (level + duration) Message-Id: <20200424090635.1041850d0bc1ebdee783678d@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200423175126.e9eea9fb.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200423175126.e9eea9fb.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497mwN5kfXz4128 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=dOvywS13; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c100038be914.93016ee4d2db4499c9f14af20c4de270@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c100038be914.93016ee4d2db4499c9f14af20c4de270@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.64 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.978,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.22), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.31), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100038be914.93016ee4d2db4499c9f14af20c4de270@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c100038be914.93016ee4d2db4499c9f14af20c4de270@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:06:45 -0000 On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:51:26 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > My question is: > > What file can I monitor (and how) to obtain an information > about _if_ there is some audio input? I'd probably use the > rec command from the sox package for recording, and probably > something like lame for MP3 conversion. Use sox it has no trouble encoding to mp3 in real time (or flac which is my preferred recording format) and can be told to skip leading silence - I use it like this to create timestamped recordings without leading silence. NOW=`date -Iseconds | cut -c12-19` rec $NOW.flac silence 1 0.5 0.1% You could start with that and watch for the file to start growing to see when sound starts. But sox is cleverer than that - viz this extract from man sox: rec -r 44100 -b 16 -e signed-integer -p \ silence 1 0.50 0.1% 1 10:00 0.1% | \ sox -p song.ogg silence 1 0.50 0.1% 1 2.0 0.1% : \ newfile : restart records a stream of audio such as LP/cassette and splits in to multiple audio files at points with 2 seconds of silence. Also, it does not start recording until it detects audio is playing and stops after it sees 10 minutes of silence. I suspect you can torture sox into doing pretty much what you want but you'll have to wrap your head round the silence and newfile options :) -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 09:58:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B694A2AE191 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:58:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shamim.shahriar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497qNn67h3z46Pq for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:58:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shamim.shahriar@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id g12so9979283wmh.3 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:58:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=GJi6PVuHSjb14la3I0jq6zQ/0mCOSa/qnrOxFZ0NzyE=; b=m4qzuEexALpk0Z0A77o61BONwdKFXUvCFH2vlMOJ3wm+KvZmdqEaLnnsUO5M4Mnk6F YCjQCYQhUZXsahYYVPr0U2gg6oX9gTm4N+VS07FTDUac87UG8RnGM91X5HXTxEU8solz xxTI13ddvFX8/So6onWKNKZ1xsWHiNoddRDFBNsVbQjDQDFFswW4Rf20Xkb5Bm8tS/pb YQWdjq/jVSgUxrdL/vhZ5Wj0ZLS9chHmfApWVoYHa8HtAGnNt/3LDsOfht+++DrGvtWx 74pTngzmDkwtvH0r8oMtC+57gLF7dxajm043TIwZFdlKL9MvDhvEhxL6dNshTVuukE/r ImZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=GJi6PVuHSjb14la3I0jq6zQ/0mCOSa/qnrOxFZ0NzyE=; b=HHbMsrgvjx+LfhMlYHSSuz8H4gaq6ZnCnD/+8ash35AXERYTlCxqK8CrZ3pzFpFkFO W7K8Abw8jC5Huf25e///5bHRr8VgT7Gl7uLuTCKJERHW5kuQpPZmcAKtJrIB2YrGGkdl L/hVIsxjCNIKB1c8n0WmIe7CZ21SIIsF/BSUNCe3SSpL5xzU1r6lQPAdQRkA5NuA9Cd+ YhsIKaTOgRQg8cbFlEcwJAkAS8WW7LWZqkkKLkG6iyC6GRy9gQK50hFN0RXN6uLdXrIY ObRmrnq+LmFQEQ9J1T0Z2aJOrzNo5/l0eAc7H5vJ4AnthCaf3RQhfhM13XGTxRsjCIiK pWhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pubb2PakSNhV6hWmL6Y8g4sim7wWCVeL+TesEXn3TJvVb2B2aAbu IV6nPoOiWquhWAM8HTosucFAn/M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJcnvfxPrrFTanabIz3f+sRZl4OsNGD6qARqoi8TMzrWIgG/PIlvwaK/NERiKULp9+FaRX2PQ== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c44d:: with SMTP id l13mr8886601wmi.72.1587722279864; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:470:1f1d:97:f2de:f1ff:fed1:783c? ([2001:470:1f1d:97:f2de:f1ff:fed1:783c]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id j11sm7559548wrr.62.2020.04.24.02.57.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> From: Shamim Shahriar Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:57:48 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497qNn67h3z46Pq X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=m4qzuEex; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of shamimshahriar@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::330 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=shamimshahriar@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.16), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:58:02 -0000 On 24/04/2020 01:09, 令狐月弦 wrote: > I am on freebsd list but I do like freebsd :) due to it is more light > and stable than others, as server running environment. freebsd is may > not as good as linux for desktop environment IMO. > disclaimer: this is not a personal response to any particular message. I am merely responding to a pattern or generic typical statement. Mostly in line of "this is better than that" or "FreeBSD is rubbish as desktop environment" or "I have no idea what I am talking about and am very proud of it". You have been warned! now, for the main response and Linux is not as good as MS Windows and Windows is not as good as MacOS and MacOS is not as good as . . . You can continue the way you prefer. I had been using FreeBSD as my primary desktop/laptop environment for many many years now -- with many ups and downs, but with much better success than people are led to believe. There are times when I need to resort to other OS based system primarily because people keep on pushing me to sites/items that I personally neither need nor want (Flash, for example) -- but friends and enemies are very keen on being the most tech savvy modern "dude" . . . (you get the picture). At work I use both MacOS and Windows. When it comes to security, guess which OS I tend to turn to. Anyway, in my own personal opinion, the inherent problem of the statement above (and anything similar) is, people seem to confuse Linux with desktop environment -- which it is not! Linux is nothing but just the kernel. It is not even the base system -- let alone the userland! People can complain that KDE does not work on particular hardware, or X does not like certain graphics card. That has nothing to do with FreeBSD. Anything and everything outside the base system are the fruit of the hard labour by people trying to adopt things that were created for some other system. The fruit will be mostly sweet, sometimes sour, and that is how it should be going forward (IMHO). That is what the Ports are offering -- take it or leave it, or alternatively help make it better (testing, reporting issues, contributing to codes, donations -- many different options to suit most people). FreeBSD is NOT Linux -- there are concepts in FreeBSD like base, userland, ports -- something worth familiarizing yourselves with in order to have a meaningful conversation. FreeBSD boasts to have the best possible documentation -- challenge it, read it through, prove it wrong before making assumptions. Understanding the differences between other OSs is also essential (no, it is NOT optional) unless you are content to make stupid remarks and be proud of it. It is amusing how people put "constructive criticism" without even realizing what they are criticizing -- "FreeBSD is not suitable as desktop environment" (and similar comments), for example. Well, what do you mean by "desktop environment" and is FreeBSD really offering you one? Or is your inability to make a third party system play nice on your hardware, combined with your lack of understanding of what FreeBSD truly is, is forcing you to expose the shortcomings/frustration on public forum in shapes and form that makes people think that you hate FreeBSD? I wonder . . . Have fun! > regards. > > Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> It seems like there are more then normal (than in years past) people >> on the >> -questions@ list that for whatever reason just*HATE*  FreeBSD for >> technical >> and non-technical reasons.    If you hate FreeBSD so much why are you on >> this list and why do you use FreeBSD?  I suspect in many cases they use >> FreeBSD because it is more stable then their favorite OS (linux).  Hint: >> that stability is in many cases due to the very reasons you hate FreeBSD >> (conservative adoption of features for example, not using GPL as much as >> possible, so called "out-dated" features and lack of "modern" hardware >> support -- the last two are either subjective or just out right >> incorrect). To answer the original post, IMHO the primary purpose / function of the Trolls are to a. fill the Internet with loads of misleading and false information, so that when newcomers are searching online for information, these misleading and false information are at the top of the response b. try to persuade any newcomer from finding the truth and discourage adopting to FreeBSD c. So far, I think this is the only place (FreeBSD mailing lists in general) where people are more accommodating, and does not kick people out for speaking BS. Despite being member in many Linux lists, I am not aware of any Linux list being trolled so much, or accommodating to people with different opinion (if anyone know of any, I'll be quite happy to take a look at the list archive and accept my mistake). The second statement above is from my personal experience. In a former job, I had serious difficulty in convincing my then line manager as to why they should move to FreeBSD -- primarily because his "Tech Savvy Friends" and "googling" convinced him that FreeBSD is the most insecure OS there can be -- even worse that M$ :P :P :P. At one point I even setup a server and invited him to ask his friends to find any flaws -- and of course, he refused to indulge me in that pursuit . . . I'm not saying these are the only reasons, but in my own personal opinion, these are at least within top seven. Best regards. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 12:24:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C044E2B2AA2 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:24:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [198.71.6.79]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497tdt0H4yz4GYL for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:24:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Received: from mail2.nber.org (mail2.nber.org [198.71.6.79]) by mail2.nber.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03OCOQ0W089481 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:24:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from feenberg@nber.org) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:24:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Feenberg To: Aryeh Friedman cc: Arne Steinkamm , Ihor Antonov , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <5058973.kMyvyFPq5o@amos> <20200423085443.18f00e9649e8c71867505550@sohara.org> <20200423113134.GB93186@trajan.stk.cx> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-KLMS-Rule-ID: 1 X-KLMS-Message-Action: clean X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Status: not scanned, disabled by settings X-KLMS-AntiSpam-Interceptor-Info: not scanned X-KLMS-AntiPhishing: Clean, 1970/01/01 00:00:00 X-KLMS-AntiVirus: Kaspersky Security 8.0 for Linux Mail Server, version 8.0.1.721, bases: 2020/04/24 06:47:00 #10759063 X-KLMS-AntiVirus-Status: Clean, skipped X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497tdt0H4yz4GYL X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of feenberg@nber.org designates 198.71.6.79 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=feenberg@nber.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.16 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nber.org]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[79.6.71.198.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.4.2]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26287, ipnet:198.71.6.0/23, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-3.66)[ip: (-9.61), ipnet: 198.71.6.0/23(-4.80), asn: 26287(-3.84), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:24:35 -0000 On Thu, 23 Apr 2020, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > Looking around almost every major linux dist discourages NFS in favor of > almost anything else for example here is SUSE's official manual on network > storage (never even mentions NFS directly as a primary option, only how to > manage the ACL's if your on a legacy NFS system): > https://documentation.suse.com/sles/12-SP4/single-html/SLES-storage/#part-net-storage > Perhaps we have been in a rut with our petabyte of data entirely accessed over NFSv3, but looking at that web page I wonder if there isn't something obsolete about it - after all, the majority of the hardware mentioned in section 17.2 as being supported is IBM and SUN, and very little would be available for purchase today. I know it has an April 2020 data at the top, but still, it doesn't reflect our experience with Linux. All of our Linux systems have excellent support for NFS, and have for 30 years or more. I wonder if the documentation is perhaps greatly removed from actual practice. It is about remote block storage, NFS is about remote file storage. All our storage is FreeBSD, Freenas or Truenas. All our compute servers are Linux. Daniel Feenberg From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 13:46:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266732B553C for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:46:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497wSv3Bqrz4NQy for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:46:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.139.75]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4377D4E61B for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:40:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <5e46ccef-3cce-7769-bbd0-167eee6f01fc@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:40:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 497wSv3Bqrz4NQy X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[75.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[75.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.999,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (0.28), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.14), asn: 160(0.11), country: US(-0.05)]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:46:56 -0000 On 4/24/20 4:57 AM, Shamim Shahriar wrote: > On 24/04/2020 01:09, 令狐月弦 wrote: >> I am on freebsd list but I do like freebsd :) due to it is more light >> and stable than others, as server running environment. freebsd is may >> not as good as linux for desktop environment IMO. >> > disclaimer: > this is not a personal response to any particular message. I am merely > responding to a pattern or generic typical statement. Mostly in line of > "this is better than that" or "FreeBSD is rubbish as desktop > environment" or "I have no idea what I am talking about and am very > proud of it". You have been warned! > > > now, for the main response > > and Linux is not as good as MS Windows > and Windows is not as good as MacOS > and MacOS is not as good as . . . > > You can continue the way you prefer. I had been using FreeBSD as my > primary desktop/laptop environment for many many years now -- with many > ups and downs, but with much better success than people are led to > believe. There are times when I need to resort to other OS based system > primarily because people keep on pushing me to sites/items that I > personally neither need nor want (Flash, for example) -- but friends and > enemies are very keen on being the most tech savvy modern "dude" . . . > (you get the picture). > > At work I use both MacOS and Windows. When it comes to security, guess > which OS I tend to turn to. > > Anyway, in my own personal opinion, the inherent problem of the > statement above (and anything similar) is, people seem to confuse Linux > with desktop environment -- which it is not! Linux is nothing but just > the kernel. It is not even the base system -- let alone the userland! > > People can complain that KDE does not work on particular hardware, or X > does not like certain graphics card. That has nothing to do with > FreeBSD. Anything and everything outside the base system are the fruit > of the hard labour by people trying to adopt things that were created > for some other system. The fruit will be mostly sweet, sometimes sour, > and that is how it should be going forward (IMHO). That is what the > Ports are offering -- take it or leave it, or alternatively help make it > better (testing, reporting issues, contributing to codes, donations -- > many different options to suit most people). FreeBSD is NOT Linux -- > there are concepts in FreeBSD like base, userland, ports -- something > worth familiarizing yourselves with in order to have a meaningful > conversation. FreeBSD boasts to have the best possible documentation -- > challenge it, read it through, prove it wrong before making assumptions. > Understanding the differences between other OSs is also essential (no, > it is NOT optional) unless you are content to make stupid remarks and be > proud of it. > > It is amusing how people put "constructive criticism" without even > realizing what they are criticizing -- "FreeBSD is not suitable as > desktop environment" (and similar comments), for example. Well, what do > you mean by "desktop environment" and is FreeBSD really offering you > one? Or is your inability to make a third party system play nice on your > hardware, combined with your lack of understanding of what FreeBSD truly > is, is forcing you to expose the shortcomings/frustration on public > forum in shapes and form that makes people think that you hate FreeBSD? > > I wonder . . . > > Have fun! > > > >> regards. >> >> Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>> It seems like there are more then normal (than in years past) people >>> on the >>> -questions@ list that for whatever reason just*HATE*  FreeBSD for >>> technical >>> and non-technical reasons.    If you hate FreeBSD so much why are you on >>> this list and why do you use FreeBSD?  I suspect in many cases they use >>> FreeBSD because it is more stable then their favorite OS (linux).  Hint: >>> that stability is in many cases due to the very reasons you hate FreeBSD >>> (conservative adoption of features for example, not using GPL as much as >>> possible, so called "out-dated" features and lack of "modern" hardware >>> support -- the last two are either subjective or just out right >>> incorrect). > > To answer the original post, IMHO the primary purpose / function of the > Trolls are to > a. fill the Internet with loads of misleading and false information, so > that when newcomers are searching online for information, these > misleading and false information are at the top of the response > b. try to persuade any newcomer from finding the truth and discourage > adopting to FreeBSD > c. So far, I think this is the only place (FreeBSD mailing lists in > general) where people are more accommodating, and does not kick people > out for speaking BS. Despite being member in many Linux lists, I am not > aware of any Linux list being trolled so much, or accommodating to > people with different opinion (if anyone know of any, I'll be quite > happy to take a look at the list archive and accept my mistake). > > The second statement above is from my personal experience. In a former > job, I had serious difficulty in convincing my then line manager as to > why they should move to FreeBSD -- primarily because his "Tech Savvy > Friends" and "googling" convinced him that FreeBSD is the most insecure > OS there can be -- even worse that M$ :P :P :P. At one point I even > setup a server and invited him to ask his friends to find any flaws -- > and of course, he refused to indulge me in that pursuit . . . > > I'm not saying these are the only reasons, but in my own personal > opinion, these are at least within top seven. Well said. Thanks a lot!! Valeri > > Best regards. > >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >> "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 24 21:56:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6500B2C4161 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 21:56:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4987Km2w4Mz4CJ3 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 21:56:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id e8so10725811ilm.7 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:56:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X9vfvm4ETZgcFbKr3vZhwiYO53Yi6uK0BAeOYXiVaM0=; b=RU5HJnZ+JRWuRS+/KcoUktYbY2kgs8rrejFvgAARNM/RJSZ0SDjIRVAfVWKUdnWpoV FrlMS0DHsjogtPxeH5//peJ2dF0AdVABDGPSjJVNqxPVOqXQwoxLvhjqXLlDaUrYl0At a8V9DJO8NayUC10lE5ZVzQNqg8wk7wvhutOhOcKF7xJ5LaKQyKdN4djp1zkD9YUNy1fk 2+TAAHfVQcBMbVcCQlWtStKr42/beVPU62p8HXx7mSg5VN0D9S11NBgv9c0q4i/Bso1a spMDqJhP3NonA+pQpT23oeAGgO4sQFznY+HW8zd+odpNdBcEmSjGqEOdITt/X7ATh11j 9wjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X9vfvm4ETZgcFbKr3vZhwiYO53Yi6uK0BAeOYXiVaM0=; b=HRNF/5Fnmb0l6de8grxw0Uh/4AJYP7rBZG4Qn1V1lpiOhBot3qJ2xFFzKi6NbFI1Pe jQFlVkCrdylGAOcHPFX49hwmzNhIdYA9y7xn07VAx5saf968XdWAZtu+czYJTuvNshJE SKv3eQ+OfpAhuoWYrygRg4udtfwvSfVfgAS+m63ufNYCbSuKo9G9XzUWSi800jv6iBTL avzjfWQilaMJuIIf4pJerItUbG3bzP3R4miWq/aJN8Y4+jCdv4KTH7wHzpWZ7CjGNZRJ yys5idH1mPAWkmVcYuDMa2jM8p4t3oJrquU37Xa/2LOs7/5PCMtFFydFpu/ibmqhCxtz BJqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZY1wtj0+LGwwfgwAIhrU1ohBM9F3GYo47vqLdRsiSKpj4wYbfF qFyfHKsytcYjbQOvK2x866MN+6LD19zpIqvd+7c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypICwbu2oE7McaA8KSlgmlM+a/Bbw0ndNbXCGkB3EF2m8zJOZtkINNfFuOAIBKS9aILCQVebcbVo9z5yjtOHsgo= X-Received: by 2002:a92:dac6:: with SMTP id o6mr10747202ilq.29.1587765387251; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:56:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:56:15 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: Shamim Shahriar Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4987Km2w4Mz4CJ3 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=RU5HJnZ+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::131 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-7.87), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 21:56:29 -0000 On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 5:58 AM Shamim Shahriar wrote: > On 24/04/2020 01:09, =E4=BB=A4=E7=8B=90=E6=9C=88=E5=BC=A6 wrote: > > I am on freebsd list but I do like freebsd :) due to it is more light > > and stable than others, as server running environment. freebsd is may > > not as good as linux for desktop environment IMO. > > > disclaimer: > this is not a personal response to any particular message. I am merely > responding to a pattern or generic typical statement. Mostly in line of > "this is better than that" or "FreeBSD is rubbish as desktop > environment" or "I have no idea what I am talking about and am very > proud of it". You have been warned! > > > now, for the main response > > and Linux is not as good as MS Windows > and Windows is not as good as MacOS > and MacOS is not as good as . . . > > You can continue the way you prefer. I had been using FreeBSD as my > primary desktop/laptop environment for many many years now -- with many > ups and downs, but with much better success than people are led to > believe. There are times when I need to resort to other OS based system > primarily because people keep on pushing me to sites/items that I > personally neither need nor want (Flash, for example) -- but friends and > enemies are very keen on being the most tech savvy modern "dude" . . . > (you get the picture). At work I use both MacOS and Windows. When it comes to security, guess > which OS I tend to turn to. > > Anyway, in my own personal opinion, the inherent problem of the > statement above (and anything similar) is, people seem to confuse Linux > with desktop environment -- which it is not! Linux is nothing but just > the kernel. It is not even the base system -- let alone the userland! > > People can complain that KDE does not work on particular hardware, or X > does not like certain graphics card. That has nothing to do with > FreeBSD. Anything and everything outside the base system are the fruit > of the hard labour by people trying to adopt things that were created > for some other system. The fruit will be mostly sweet, sometimes sour, > and that is how it should be going forward (IMHO). That is what the > Ports are offering -- take it or leave it, or alternatively help make it > better (testing, reporting issues, contributing to codes, donations -- > many different options to suit most people). FreeBSD is NOT Linux -- > there are concepts in FreeBSD like base, userland, ports -- something > worth familiarizing yourselves with in order to have a meaningful > conversation. FreeBSD boasts to have the best possible documentation -- > challenge it, read it through, prove it wrong before making assumptions. > Understanding the differences between other OSs is also essential (no, > it is NOT optional) unless you are content to make stupid remarks and be > proud of it. > > It is amusing how people put "constructive criticism" without even > realizing what they are criticizing -- "FreeBSD is not suitable as > desktop environment" (and similar comments), for example. Well, what do > you mean by "desktop environment" and is FreeBSD really offering you > one? Or is your inability to make a third party system play nice on your > hardware, combined with your lack of understanding of what FreeBSD truly > is, is forcing you to expose the shortcomings/frustration on public > forum in shapes and form that makes people think that you hate FreeBSD? > I have used FreeBSD for my primary desktop since the early 2000's and played with it as a desktop since the mid 90's (XFCE is what made me switch over to it for good). I agree there have been ups and downs and generally I find it a better desktop then Windows (never was able to tolerate Linux long enough on my primary desktop machine to get a real feel for how X and XFCE interact during extended normal use with it but from what little I have done with it there is was almost no difference between it and FreeBSD and general issues with stability in Linux drove me nuts). Yes there are ups and downs but that is true of all software and the downs are normally more controlled and easier to deal with stuff in ports then as binaries on Linux; if comes to worst I can always fix small issues right in the source. About once a year seems there is a major upheaval due to the -x11@ team struggling to "keep up" with the neighbors (linux) due to yet another (often) not well thought out "improvement" to the neighbor's GUI house. The latest example is wayland -- which I agree on the surface sounds like the right long term maintainable way to handle the architecture of the GUI subsystem despite some serious lack, on behalf of the upstream, making sure that all the "very rare" use cases (in computing "very rare" = =3D=3D the first end-user who was not on the development team will use it that way). On Flash the need for it has finally almost completely disappeared with HTML5 multimedia finally becoming the vastly preferred way of presenting multimedia content. Which means pretty much all normal use cases can be done on FreeBSD with no other machine. Since my significant other teaches class that uses some windows only software, MS Office (in order to make sure the instructions on the assignments are correct not for any other office/educational use) and Scratch (off-line editor) I have a VM that runs it so I can help my SO prepare assignments. > > I wonder . . . > > Have fun! > > > > > regards. > > > > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> It seems like there are more then normal (than in years past) people > >> on the > >> -questions@ list that for whatever reason just*HATE* FreeBSD for > >> technical > >> and non-technical reasons. If you hate FreeBSD so much why are you = on > >> this list and why do you use FreeBSD? I suspect in many cases they us= e > >> FreeBSD because it is more stable then their favorite OS (linux). Hin= t: > >> that stability is in many cases due to the very reasons you hate FreeB= SD > >> (conservative adoption of features for example, not using GPL as much = as > >> possible, so called "out-dated" features and lack of "modern" hardware > >> support -- the last two are either subjective or just out right > >> incorrect). > > To answer the original post, IMHO the primary purpose / function of the > Trolls are to > a. fill the Internet with loads of misleading and false information, so > that when newcomers are searching online for information, these > misleading and false information are at the top of the response > b. try to persuade any newcomer from finding the truth and discourage > adopting to FreeBSD > c. So far, I think this is the only place (FreeBSD mailing lists in > general) where people are more accommodating, and does not kick people > out for speaking BS. Despite being member in many Linux lists, I am not > aware of any Linux list being trolled so much, or accommodating to > people with different opinion (if anyone know of any, I'll be quite > happy to take a look at the list archive and accept my mistake). > > The second statement above is from my personal experience. In a former > job, I had serious difficulty in convincing my then line manager as to > why they should move to FreeBSD -- primarily because his "Tech Savvy > Friends" and "googling" convinced him that FreeBSD is the most insecure > OS there can be -- even worse that M$ :P :P :P. At one point I even > setup a server and invited him to ask his friends to find any flaws -- > and of course, he refused to indulge me in that pursuit . . . > I would rather use M$ then Linux! It at least has a mostly consistent GUI instead of a pot luck style one. Due to being a programmer I vastly prefer Unix so if I am stuck with pot luck I want one (FreeBSD) where I will not get food poisoning from under cooked food (Linux). > I'm not saying these are the only reasons, but in my own personal > opinion, these are at least within top seven. > > Best regards. > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 03:57:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FC82CA746 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 03:57:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic308-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic308-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498HLJ6N3Xz4Tsv for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 03:57:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: gu.rkH4VM1lIXJ50YV1d6JtO2tcgcroVm0qvUENIosEBl6H7ijqfKWDeMnFJCD8 neO3A8fAMXGJODj6o.awYD2y8BLvZMCZDIx17xuio9uad8kpNUzGdHvHE.Mns9ucOYKeHmzrwfPo Vsqp.az6lTigiXe7BHlv7H3Rm.Lo3dkGTYugxZnU_sZaqBw.g0r43Ht.UXimZjGrUxL_5IGTQk2S mzAxz_XaZzxS9LntYmqmUQHrjd8pr2c7WyE4USiKE9MWx090gpWWmgKFLOTqR1Q7JfMdduIClX60 tfbMuOW1BBCaY7dyXIAX.ijRNnnps6Z0R7F5QlHX.YNiaSIiMyz1Pr6FWHw5fPj2xYdoZYVlJEIb gNvHnNsxiQ5cmePdx1tWAgU.AKbonJKpnWXNa4__5erfpnzzFyFWg8v.xSouM57a6sh4EaSmgAcx GwIDM7azi2SojjMsM6B.i8e5ri46Gt_LYEJpQiAzeEJE6Uik7EjktVMZJvmw3qlfJmXT3xj35jZo n5KeBhforxC2GmI3ffH9PuDNfkUPkLsiOBM3vlkVT7wHtGGiQzblPuFSMtoqButmdnd7kvDLrfyQ YEPArz5sE5BNMPeKNRqy6WZ7EdRf5XxDFjZDPsMeI7F4GcSejTeqTOOIw_m861xAdNKwd9KPS2zY ik4_adHij0ylxtDYKCTBbXNMkxw3EgxQYkT6ciBht02_wQAxhMSaaDZe9gugWweEQhf0cvbuP7lS 5JGgDDRNzPQHgqKnntrkrWX0uvslDRJuwZnRIXqPJJpSNbELi_BqzqDmvG5CrJxI0St8fA3lIrmE JSal2dY_Jj8aB6_zbohnfitWibVdO8TvYucrVY61j6OotXtCXMqs3WSqk29Mf2bpZvEJc4XoxVsA 4XcBCy7GyATGqARynOibm2MDx5V8ToMe5VKz9EiNOPuJL7MOHyS9DiijtftTdnBwy3iVVNZGgrMN 7Sp_bOs0xIwoxD6DsqaBOqHqCtIcDKbHgbZi4VlsiMZknaBm2ypiHZIWtu9EIPEcfbAvHx0yeg7t 9lnH2RtgT28u6mGZ_As3y27ultocL8Ol8VqBOLg_IR_4GgK6e8Pg7U.Gd5seAMzMWcmFnUPcMkcU VPQM1KuDggerFe8qn529RUHYoPcqzc61Ti5qsYOjUEBk0syrY2cS4K1HWr4KFceMDOgOdrW0kwf2 Bx5XYiIrhS528mCjsS9SqTudu8e5Wjoj5LxwgMs1wAgciXR5xTeevVK3cB1FDBc2tlPTfk0Hr8Xt LOwJhKilR6VHImKXTj0CgIlCMPb8etaPPfdsREEWQaRbPcZfGA72UsZDFXetn494LsrQ2EmJYpQh iMdvxGPG2SN3Jg6ZMx5e8oYZ8F7_lpgxdexLGuazztkXUZzjM5FYHzOa3XkRBdGDTWIIzq6FbMhq ulQ-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 03:57:26 +0000 Received: by smtp416.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 24a5dfa8ba5440593e79f56e995bc31c; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 03:57:21 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 05:57:23 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) Message-ID: <20200425055723.00e6f974@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498HLJ6N3Xz4Tsv X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.22 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.69), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.12), asn: 34010(1.68), country: GB(-0.07)]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.79)[-0.786,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.943,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[147.178.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[147.178.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 03:57:30 -0000 On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:56:15 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >[snip] Yes there are ups and downs but that is true of all software and >the downs are normally more controlled and easier to deal with stuff in >ports then as binaries on Linux; if comes to worst I can always fix >small issues right in the source. [snip] I would rather use M$ then >Linux! You can fix small issues right in the source of *BSD as well as in the source of Linux. This is not an advantage of *BSD over Linux, but it's an advantage of *BSD and Linux over Windows. You are absolutely unqualified. Note, that I feel the need to correct your constantly spread misinformation about Linux or licenses does not imply that I hate FreeBSD or any other operating system, neither does it imply, that I feel confident with Linux or any other operating system. I also do not wish to discuss with you, I only want to correct the misinformation in the interests of readers. I recommend objectiveness when deciding what computer bundle to chose. It's a always a bundle, made of hardware, operating system, user applications. Some people are using computers as tools. Tools must fulfil several criteria. Some people are using computers for self purpose, if so it becomes a belief. Those people do not know, they belief and claim that their belief is knowledge. Usually the best cutting tool for an artist is a scalpel. Is a scalpel also the best cutting tool for primary-school pupil making art? Linux (the kernel), Linux (the core components, yes some distros distinguish between system components in a similar way as FreeBSD does and to keep a system stable, they treat different components in different ways), Linux (the user apps) aren't binaries in the first place. E V E N Linux distros such as Ubuntu provide to build re-edited packages, while several other distros, Arch Linux is one of them, follow an approach that is way closer (close but different) to FreeBSD. "The Arch build system is a ports-like system for building and packaging software from source code. While pacman is the specialized Arch tool for binary package management (including packages built with the ABS), ABS is a collection of tools for compiling source into installable .pkg.tar.xz packages. Ports is a system used by *BSD to automate the process of building software from source code. The system uses a port to download, unpack, patch, compile, and install the given software. A port is merely a small directory on the user's computer, named after the corresponding software to be installed, that contains a few files with the instructions for building and installing the software from source. This makes installing software as simple as typing make or make install clean within the port's directory. ABS is a similar concept. A part of ABS is a SVN repository and an equivalent Git repository. The repository contains a directory corresponding to each package available in Arch Linux. The directories of the repository contain a PKGBUILD file (and sometimes other files), and do not contain the software source nor binary. By issuing makepkg inside a directory, the software sources are downloaded, the software is compiled, and then packaged within the build directory. Then you can use pacman to install the package." - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Build_System From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 06:01:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8962CC6DB for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 06:01:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498L5Y5xwbz4ZDH for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 06:01:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id u5so11470580ilb.5 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 23:01:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nzYWC6EaVLm4CmwAvBbQCerq0Ti0j8IsvZSoXZaoIS8=; b=WZXj+fP5fyB4MEGLRkl2KKDA+y0F1ugdxB1z3zch+KGqK7KOuT5cBTvN6pot2sPFoq N81nsJqPK8wCkCOKfULc6c31wTs8PLxFAJ5hSSUOYmDDWVEgEFX0wJjxJ6nQMY+s/SUB +PUzTYXVxgmPT4O3o9riAbRJNgYLjMgXxAKLzXc4nLCc/zZFescjXfiQIhFtgosmS6W0 gYPnQi0J/b2ky0PY35jw6bHlvtZr9M6gdni/d4tZ5D3ISFKPgzG3hbj5BtN9PZfSuf2r NL1jZcHcVDr5ZY5Rmw1T70dLhewVw0SLKw+Yqs/IrSkhv6MNljpH2uystrNLC+HX9NYJ HOtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nzYWC6EaVLm4CmwAvBbQCerq0Ti0j8IsvZSoXZaoIS8=; b=ep2cm54B8RcrczN8sHXLEUbXSLJiK/3GzH/nGcFUa4TfRjqJmyrZ0GmHY+SBgR6h7T k5u/TkLxjcLCY4Pz+fVsCOTWuwN3y1TRT5zjq0WMThZVYaz2fo9H1uvrVtTyF5jzKOMT /dQADtQYUQYWJJkYBf1cdqJe9LWmVbfBtJKyM5eQt+K+ty6EiKN9+Dnztj0WxTME5B57 +QjqPW2OjrBZ7f3I1k2P5cYZre2UZeAMYtbUwrDRwvma6/FXL4SPqeBltGXMln0+tJdo qCbr0/+H8IEearokC1JqpKCHG3PKVY+iey/WYihZBXl58gybBP7fYnoGJ2IytC+o2D8r tWwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ9Q1d+yGgmQgDViDKYZd0C3lLuk7eEDZnDWQ1fW/4cEv6cHsmC 7kRl3mNALANlYA2kZVl9/60DlDwZp9eL6lZO9ChSvCWJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLQunuVzpa6GSPYHSSZzqMaDNmX1DsDglMB0qJI8GQQzaSY3DZu2+FiVLbLzxfqmW0TpwGCZ91Jlru7uuWYEI8= X-Received: by 2002:a92:dac6:: with SMTP id o6mr12058216ilq.29.1587794496580; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 23:01:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> <20200425055723.00e6f974@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200425055723.00e6f974@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 02:01:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498L5Y5xwbz4ZDH X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=WZXj+fP5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::131 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-7.84), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 06:01:39 -0000 On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:57 PM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:56:15 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >[snip] Yes there are ups and downs but that is true of all software and > >the downs are normally more controlled and easier to deal with stuff in > >ports then as binaries on Linux; if comes to worst I can always fix > >small issues right in the source. [snip] I would rather use M$ then > >Linux! > > You can fix small issues right in the source of *BSD as well as in the > source of Linux. This is not an advantage of *BSD over Linux, but it's > an advantage of *BSD and Linux over Windows. > Please learn to read I was talking about fixing them in *BSD (not Linux). Linux's binary only distributions with no easy to use way to build by third party developers was what I was referring to as being hard to patch (of course you can always get the source and blunder your way through an undocumented and largely non-standardized methods of build from source with no real way of making sure you have all the required packages to compile against [yes as you say there is some work to make this more like ports but every single one I have used like Gentoo's makes horrific assumptions]). I never said anything about how this compares or does not compare to Windows. > > You are absolutely unqualified. Says someone who can't be bothered to read a complete message to see what it actually says (not what you want/think it says). Either that or you purposely take what people say and twist it around to your own misunderstandings. Additional just as I have no clue about how qualified or unqualified you are for anything outside of what you have said here I suggest you do the same with other people. For example I could of said equally personal and derogatory things about you and your professional life, but I didn't because to do so would be making potentially incorrect and unwarranted generalizations about you. While I might be blunt about answering what you said I didn't go beyond it and it is intellectually dishonest for you to not do the same. So please unless you have actually looked at my paid work for example make no judgements about it's quality (just as I have made none about yours). If you do want to see some of it ask me and I will send some of the code from the open-sourcable parts of the work, til then please shut up on the matter or personal qualifications. > > Note, that I feel the need to correct your constantly spread > misinformation about Linux or licenses does not imply that I hate > FreeBSD or any other operating system, neither does it imply, that I > feel confident with Linux or any other operating system. > Not spreading misinformation just showing that your *narrow* view of what they allow and don't allow is the only possible view (nor even the only possible "correct" one). Since this is a FreeBSD mailing list the only concern I or anyone else has about GPL that it not pollute the ability to use FreeBSD (and non-GPL'ed ports) as the part of a commercial product (no matter how the product is constructed/linked to the OS/ports). Like I said before if you want the actual arguments to why FreeBSD dislikes GPL see the article on freebsd.org on it, https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/bsdl-gpl/index.html, (which I didn't write or have any input on) which gives them. BTW I agree with every last argument made in that article. But perhaps the conclusion will be the most convincing summary of my argument: "In contrast to the GPL, which is designed to prevent the proprietary commercialization of Open Source code, the BSD license places minimal restrictions on future behavior. This allows BSD code to remain Open Source or become integrated into commercial solutions, as a project's or company's needs change. In other words, the BSD license does not become a legal time-bomb at any point in the development process." So do everyone a favor and stop attempting convince us that the above consensus is somehow not true or does not apply to someone writing custom software. In short how @#$ dare you say you have the right to take my work and provide no compensation in return, that is not social progress (as you claim for GPL) it is just simple theft. Also unless you haven't looked at modern software development processes it is almost impossible to make anything useful without building on someone elses work, which means you *MUST* honor whatever license the other work is under and if GPL was the only thing out there you would be forcing a lot of otherwise talented people to either not make software or deny them a livelihood. > > I also do not wish to discuss with you, I only want to correct the > misinformation in the interests of readers. > Since you are one of the trolls I wished to draw out with this thread you will get a discussion even if you didn't want one. > I recommend objectiveness when deciding what computer bundle to chose. > It's a always a bundle, made of hardware, operating system, user > applications. > No it is not one solid bundle under US law it is illegal for a hardware manufacturer to force you to use a specific OS and applications. (See US v. IBM [1969] and US v. Microsoft [2000]) The law does allow the manufacturer to preinstall software but requires it be removable by the end user (in this context firmware is not software). Therefore the system one builds is up to them and what licenses to use is up to them. All a license can say is what other licenses are legally compatible with them and which ones are not and under what cases they are compatible. GPL has made it very clear the only compatible licenses for downstream developers to use are viral ones that force you to give away your code (or make it so if you try to sell it someone else can come along and undercut you to force you to sell it for free). GPL has declared BSD is incompatible for this reason and that is the real reason FreeBSD tries to avoid GPL (not my argument about making a living, per se, which is just a nice side effect of BSD vs. GPL). Some people are using computers as tools. Tools must fulfil several > criteria. > And one those criteria is to make a living so why do you insist that somehow one such use (the one that makes the rest of the computer useful to end users) is "evil" if it makes money? > > Some people are using computers for self purpose, if so it becomes a > belief. Those people do not know, they belief and claim that their > belief is knowledge. > "for self purpose" makes no grammatical sense. I assume you mean for selfish purposes. Sorry to tell you but sometimes someone has to a little selfish if they need to make a living. I don't think your landlord will react very well if you tell them they should support your selfless use of computers by not charging you rent. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 07:58:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5842CE66D for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 07:58:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.xs4all.nl [83.161.133.58]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "cloudzeeland.nl", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498Nhk42Pyz4fhk for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 07:58:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.nl [10.10.10.36]) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED6E8B3B for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:58:38 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1587801518; bh=8fosIEV9gfLlI9XmIohoKsvhSaspoU8gdYW2sKSjKek=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ZcOCgSJOPtvT6VBgzELABBboeSi8RaWmooSRusjrMI1bVnM+ToZej5rrc6hW0BWul yngQ4PX0n+GiBEz/VxssVW1ulWnT27jsOl/lf7HXJwnNGGVn4FcKH+DgYEtZFBZ//Z xdpyS6OAP5o3pmJkZvRcsuHaB8W9e9l3A6QKlr6c= Received: from [10.10.10.34] (pion1.rpicloud.nl [82.176.127.71]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9ADE8B3A for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:58:37 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1587801518; bh=8fosIEV9gfLlI9XmIohoKsvhSaspoU8gdYW2sKSjKek=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ZcOCgSJOPtvT6VBgzELABBboeSi8RaWmooSRusjrMI1bVnM+ToZej5rrc6hW0BWul yngQ4PX0n+GiBEz/VxssVW1ulWnT27jsOl/lf7HXJwnNGGVn4FcKH+DgYEtZFBZ//Z xdpyS6OAP5o3pmJkZvRcsuHaB8W9e9l3A6QKlr6c= Subject: Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Jos Chrispijn Organization: Userland rocks! Message-ID: <28b93539-02e4-d9f5-753b-fa33b5630e69@cloudzeeland.nl> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:58:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP on poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498Nhk42Pyz4fhk X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=ZcOCgSJO; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=ZcOCgSJO; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl designates 83.161.133.58 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.95 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cloudzeeland.nl:s=cloud]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl:+]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.45)[ip: (-9.80), ipnet: 83.160.0.0/14(-2.41), asn: 3265(-0.05), country: NL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3265, ipnet:83.160.0.0/14, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 07:58:47 -0000 On 24-4-20 1:08, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > It seems like there are more then normal (than in years past) people on the > -questions@ list that for whatever reason just *HATE* FreeBSD for technical > and non-technical reasons. This list is a true information well for anyone that is interested in FreeBSD. Just ignore these individuals and put your energy in things that really matter (no offense). Best, Jos From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 08:03:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C3672CEBAE for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:03:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic314-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic314-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.177.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498Npc6pQyz4g8L for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:03:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: P_YdB3YVM1mqXAFBDLG_TblBbk0zb5fCi5_LTUBHIQC16AKgpMl0BcIXcNivMwR YRoeZgp9IrCwS3K7n9iabY0B4OTGLASzo7FffbGax5wJW2inW6DrCq9xr1fLEQsxyp0eODVcfJQv DR3Kww.UDwnd_spuBro4G57oCn3dO6J91.ctqz4eZskwn4Dod1xQOEwTnHVFV7UUY6wPnBlnOaSE 6OGl4ScAKkGGOwq8WXjUr6L14xfC1o0VLZmVFttF0lYeqyCyalEZZWArTGVIXn7guUrlSB5opf4e UwFPhUkpjAR8Vb7nriWUMRoCsfqnlwn6dKRcf_Ajw3yitd8Gn1cMb6swxlIJlH4YVxYO_A1GCJeu MHItVkngD8Zgc8SH.p4l.tTS826uZVfx5gSizaz9IXU3fHrPZzmjWCTI4qR0mBVveWgNAE.UUFUs 8t_X3tZJa_lqoH9rrgsre.bTA8epYkTFr4qTcgdtivt8VQIl910yMB6qL.tOO9OZUtGTsI4Bc_Gq XJYpBZG1VahSFiXzgxGfw0Zaovu8jALJX5uTZEu6MotfM2M1P5ripDW1s6x4lzPwH_XaIhpx12bX JrSwGSvnBsHz470Zu4x2_uAwNrPob14LBXvrhUtgwYv5sLkZKfTSDuHBLnLBILVmSXmCiuCdoMVb CJ64oy3W7F37gAJGa9vNiBhRWXfgtsiolslB.9Jj99EzIyD4.ikp4OHZjVmUUaM_CtJdzt25DbWV EtlQHD_emplO9CJ34l10cYAiDuNt7WW.y4mXHuL3.7eWGN0fo8_Xbky2IIRlM.DFxeKUiak9D7r3 fgH9byVdb0MQBdmrWv.ZHxnF8Ov64aRRkArU2xZd3apLWKX6ciOz4YFJjMtJbHAah3O7n3z3ALVN TNz7kdGlaMC4z7K_9sS2eJ7NcpiK5fUv_lM9Y9_8tDgRhCVnYKNoAYMpNvYaYVwB9sEpc_NK1AHL Oh4BfWcHgtBnUxh9LMy1oj_tk3kZaRnfU7fR5iyfY1yKQaXl_kHMtcPI3_BYUyH0MlTIXUIFSVnU wnTuwekWCk57XYxfypc6j7RRQHxozRoF1I9FLAWnRx4Yvinvg_VpdJ.aId74bhN34JQ6IIXJ8NuV dqJvAvNbek9aQFSsn0NL.nLG4dU7npCc.cUAfWmcjRwVlRX95dvA_q6yjUXosCgikGZ01b3a8uH7 YvPm0nhFuJhoxyYHMWedk_34.J96QsyfvWeqBcnwGrV9HrqGSepIupE7tGrvEOssGCggphi8_fQA 0Nt43XY9T_hCJb.uIGhBWBFiJHh.L341pZ6S6.e14QUz1FOXE0lkkaCxuw4K_HyJIH9A4bwoMIrk El4pu0nSaGfplsJrgfWK3BuSeIJhEnIPXRaGjuiivJhoasTiAgphYUaby4RFIn2wrvejPuWe5kJ5 f2fgQZM7LWpYiIq22c6r3HQ9ZdAxKIaAtXw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:03:51 +0000 Received: by smtp403.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e0c64dd996e2ad080b8c712e98e074ad; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:03:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:03:48 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Mailman's moderation checkbox?! - Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) Message-ID: <20200425100348.3022f215@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> <20200425055723.00e6f974@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498Npc6pQyz4g8L X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.15 / 15.00]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; SUBJECT_HAS_EXCLAIM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.64), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.12), asn: 34010(1.68), country: GB(-0.07)]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.75)[-0.748,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.909,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[147.177.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[147.177.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:03:54 -0000 S t o p spreading misinformation, stop spreading FUD! It's hard to ignore such replies. On almost all other mailing lists the moderation bit already would have been set. Note, you aren't doing FreeBSD a favour by spreading untruth about other operating systems. Subscribers of this list don't hate FreeBSD, so even promo based on facts, without bashing other operating systems is unneeded. I never claimed that it is evil to make money by programming and selling software. I also never claimed that you need to buy a hardware + operating system + user app bundle put together by a dealer. "bundle" is for the right hardware, for the right operating system, for the right user application, which results in the right tool. The right tool for a landscape artist is a tablet PC with a pencil. The landscape artist needs a tablet PC, an operating system that does run on a tablet PC with pencil and a drawing app that does run on the operating system. You need a bundle, even if you are the one who put it together. Thanks to GNU you will hardly find many legal Linux distribution that are binary only ;), let alone that the FUD you spread about "largely non-standardized methods of build from source with no real way of making sure you have all the required packages to compile against" is ridiculous. You are just unqualified. If you dislike split Linux packages, just chose a distro that doesn't split software from upstream into packages for the binaries, libraries, headers, e.g. Arch Linux. If you don't like Linux at all, don't care about it at all. However, even distros that split software from upstream into several packages tend to provide a fine user manual, e.g. Debian and Ubuntu. As an example, gimp: Arch Linux: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/gimp/ It's a single package. Debian (and Ubuntu) tracker: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/gimp It's a split package. gimp gimp-data libgimp2.0 libgimp2.0-dev libgimp2.0-doc You even don't need to read a fine manual to take a look at the control and rules files: https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/g/gimp/control-2.10.18-1 https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/g/gimp/rules-2.10.18-1 To understand some things of those files you might need to read the fine manual. Arch PKGBUILDs are scripts, so you can already understand them without using a fine manual. While Arch Linux provides a *BSD port alike build system, even distros that do not, such as Debian and Ubuntu, don't split the source packages. IOW if you download a source package, to build a new edited package, by following the fine manual, you don't need to worry about the split package policy. A "computers for self purpose" is for a computer that isn't used as a useful tool in a special non-computer domain, it's for a computer that is just used as computer in a native computer domain. I do not mean for "selfish purposes". There's a difference between coders who have got knowledge about computers and a special native non-computer domain, such as music, drawing art, elementary particle physics, bookkeeping etc. and coders who only have knowledge about computers. I never met somebody who needs software or who is writing software in a domain that is not a computer domain in the first place and who cares about all that generalized pros and cons of different operating systems and licenses. What _we_ (I'm one of them) usually chose is the platform/bundle that fits best to the user's and/or developer's needs, so we sometimes end up with different hardware and different operating systems and different licensed software for different purposes. The trousers I wear are made by a different vendor than the guitars I play. The operating system I'm using for one purpose could be another operating system, than what I'm using for another purpose. I'm not the only one who does chose a tool that fits to the purpose instead of taking care about generalisation. Even within a very special domain generalisation tends to be inaccurate. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 08:30:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011352CF205 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:30:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch) Received: from conversation.bsdunix.ch (ns1.bsdunix.ch [82.220.1.90]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498PPK60qTz3Cbv for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:30:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (dynamic-82-220-88-82.ftth.solnet.ch [82.220.88.82]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.bsdunix.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EAE2EA4EE2 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:30:15 +0000 (UTC) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Tom Vogt Subject: Error compiling custom/generic kernel with FreeBSD 12.1 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 10:30:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HELO_MISC_IP, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS,RCVD_IN_PBL,RDNS_DYNAMIC,SPF_NEUTRAL,TW_SV autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on conversation.bsdunix.ch X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498PPK60qTz3Cbv X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch designates 82.220.1.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.988,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdunix.ch]; IP_SCORE(-0.05)[asn: 9044(-0.30), country: CH(0.04)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[82.88.220.82.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:9044, ipnet:82.220.0.0/16, country:CH]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:30:32 -0000 Hello, I'm having problem compiling a custom kernel on my FreeBSD 12.1-p4. I've tried to compile GENERIC too. Same error. I use https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/kernelconfig-building.html as documentation. My /etc/make.conf and /etc/src.conf are empty. I've deleted everything in /usr/obj/*. Filesystem is UFS for /, /usr/*. The systems runs under bare metal. Hardware information: Version: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz root@gw:~ # grep memory /var/run/dmesg.boot real memory = 17179869184 (16384 MB) avail memory = 16325709824 (15569 MB) FreeBSD version: root@gw:/usr/src # uname -a FreeBSD gw 12.1-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 GENERIC amd64 Patchlevel installed: root@gw:/usr/src # freebsd-version 12.1-RELEASE-p4 FreeBSD SVN Version: root@gw:/usr/src # svnlite info Path: . Working Copy Root Path: /usr/src URL: https://svn.freebsd.org/base/releng/12.1 Relative URL: ^/releng/12.1 Repository Root: https://svn.freebsd.org/base Repository UUID: ccf9f872-aa2e-dd11-9fc8-001c23d0bc1f Revision: 360286 Node Kind: directory Schedule: normal Last Changed Author: gordon Last Changed Rev: 360151 Last Changed Date: 2020-04-21 15:54:08 +0000 (Di., 21 Apr. 2020) My kernel include includes: include GENERIC ident RACK makeoptions WITH_EXTRA_TCP_STACKS=1 options TCPHPTS Command I use to build the kernel: make buildkernel KERNCONF=RACK Error: ctfconvert -L VERSION -g aesni_ccm.o make[4]: don't know how to make immintrin.h. Stop make[4]: stopped in /usr/src/sys/modules/aesni *** Error code 2 Stop. make[3]: stopped in /usr/src/sys/modules *** Error code 1 Stop. make[2]: stopped in /usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/RACK *** Error code 1 Stop. make[1]: stopped in /usr/src *** Error code 1 Stop. make: stopped in /usr/src Any idea whats wrong? Regards, Tom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 12:07:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F022AEB79 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 12:07:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch) Received: from conversation.bsdunix.ch (ns1.bsdunix.ch [82.220.1.90]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498VDB4PB3z3xKt for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 12:07:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (dynamic-82-220-88-82.ftth.solnet.ch [82.220.88.82]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.bsdunix.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 006311357D for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 12:07:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Error compiling custom/generic kernel with FreeBSD 12.1 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Tom Vogt Message-ID: <4e4bc71f-28e2-fac2-06c9-bf886a786187@bsdunix.ch> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 14:07:50 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HELO_MISC_IP, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS,RCVD_IN_PBL,RDNS_DYNAMIC,SPF_NEUTRAL,TW_SV autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on conversation.bsdunix.ch X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498VDB4PB3z3xKt X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch designates 82.220.1.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsdlists@bsdunix.ch X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[82.88.220.82.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdunix.ch]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.49)[ipnet: 82.220.0.0/16(-1.76), asn: 9044(-0.73), country: CH(0.04)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:9044, ipnet:82.220.0.0/16, country:CH]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 12:07:55 -0000 Hello, Yesterday I've removed everything in /usr/src and /usr/obj including .svn, started a new checkout. Nothing changed. Kernel build failed. Today I did the same again and now the kernel compiles. Hooray. Could it be that a mirror behind https://svn.freebsd.org/base/releng/12.1 is not up to date or is missing something? Anyway at least my problem is fixed. Regards, Tom Am 25/04/2020 um 10:30 schrieb Tom Vogt: > Hello, > > I'm having problem compiling a custom kernel on my FreeBSD 12.1-p4. I've > tried to compile GENERIC too. Same error. > > I use > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/kernelconfig-building.html > as documentation. > > My /etc/make.conf and /etc/src.conf are empty. I've deleted everything > in /usr/obj/*. Filesystem is UFS for /, /usr/*. > > The systems runs under bare metal. Hardware information: > Version: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz > root@gw:~ #  grep memory /var/run/dmesg.boot > real memory  = 17179869184 (16384 MB) > avail memory = 16325709824 (15569 MB) > > FreeBSD version: > root@gw:/usr/src # uname -a > FreeBSD gw 12.1-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 GENERIC  amd64 > > Patchlevel installed: > root@gw:/usr/src # freebsd-version > 12.1-RELEASE-p4 > > FreeBSD SVN Version: > root@gw:/usr/src # svnlite info > Path: . > Working Copy Root Path: /usr/src > URL: https://svn.freebsd.org/base/releng/12.1 > Relative URL: ^/releng/12.1 > Repository Root: https://svn.freebsd.org/base > Repository UUID: ccf9f872-aa2e-dd11-9fc8-001c23d0bc1f > Revision: 360286 > Node Kind: directory > Schedule: normal > Last Changed Author: gordon > Last Changed Rev: 360151 > Last Changed Date: 2020-04-21 15:54:08 +0000 (Di., 21 Apr. 2020) > > My kernel include includes: > include GENERIC > ident RACK > makeoptions WITH_EXTRA_TCP_STACKS=1 > options TCPHPTS > > Command I use to build the kernel: > make buildkernel KERNCONF=RACK > > Error: > ctfconvert -L VERSION -g aesni_ccm.o > make[4]: don't know how to make immintrin.h. Stop > > make[4]: stopped in /usr/src/sys/modules/aesni > *** Error code 2 > > Stop. > make[3]: stopped in /usr/src/sys/modules > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > make[2]: stopped in /usr/obj/usr/src/amd64.amd64/sys/RACK > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > make[1]: stopped in /usr/src > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > make: stopped in /usr/src > > Any idea whats wrong? > > Regards, > Tom > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 13:28:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C5B2B19F9 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:28:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498X1K3vTdz44s8 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:28:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.142.133]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A9304E68A for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:28:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Mailman's moderation checkbox?! - Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> <20200425055723.00e6f974@archlinux> <20200425100348.3022f215@archlinux> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <762afc18-324a-05ab-cf1b-68de2afea9ae@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:28:30 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200425100348.3022f215@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498X1K3vTdz44s8 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[133.142.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.979,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (0.28), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.14), asn: 160(0.11), country: US(-0.05)]; SUBJECT_HAS_EXCLAIM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.928,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:28:38 -0000 On 4/25/20 3:03 AM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > S t o p spreading misinformation, stop spreading FUD! > > It's hard to ignore such replies. On almost all other mailing lists the > moderation bit already would have been set. I join you and ask list moderators to ban that person from the list. Valeri > > Note, you aren't doing FreeBSD a favour by spreading untruth about > other operating systems. Subscribers of this list don't hate FreeBSD, > so even promo based on facts, without bashing other operating systems > is unneeded. > > I never claimed that it is evil to make money by programming and > selling software. I also never claimed that you need to buy a hardware > + operating system + user app bundle put together by a dealer. "bundle" > is for the right hardware, for the right operating system, for the > right user application, which results in the right tool. The right tool > for a landscape artist is a tablet PC with a pencil. The landscape > artist needs a tablet PC, an operating system that does run on a tablet > PC with pencil and a drawing app that does run on the operating system. > You need a bundle, even if you are the one who put it together. > > Thanks to GNU you will hardly find many legal Linux distribution that > are binary only ;), let alone that the FUD you spread about "largely > non-standardized methods of build from source with no real way of > making sure you have all the required packages to compile against" is > ridiculous. You are just unqualified. If you dislike split Linux > packages, just chose a distro that doesn't split software from upstream > into packages for the binaries, libraries, headers, e.g. Arch Linux. If > you don't like Linux at all, don't care about it at all. However, even > distros that split software from upstream into several packages tend to > provide a fine user manual, e.g. Debian and Ubuntu. > > As an example, gimp: > > Arch Linux: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/gimp/ > It's a single package. > > Debian (and Ubuntu) tracker: > https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/gimp > It's a split package. > > gimp > gimp-data > libgimp2.0 > libgimp2.0-dev > libgimp2.0-doc > > You even don't need to read a fine manual to take a look at the control > and rules files: > > https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/g/gimp/control-2.10.18-1 > https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/g/gimp/rules-2.10.18-1 > > To understand some things of those files you might need to read the fine > manual. > > Arch PKGBUILDs are scripts, so you can already understand them without > using a fine manual. > > While Arch Linux provides a *BSD port alike build system, even distros > that do not, such as Debian and Ubuntu, don't split the source packages. > IOW if you download a source package, to build a new edited package, by > following the fine manual, you don't need to worry about the split > package policy. > > A "computers for self purpose" is for a computer that isn't used as a > useful tool in a special non-computer domain, it's for a computer that > is just used as computer in a native computer domain. I do not mean > for "selfish purposes". > > There's a difference between coders who have got knowledge about > computers and a special native non-computer domain, such as music, > drawing art, elementary particle physics, bookkeeping etc. and coders > who only have knowledge about computers. > > I never met somebody who needs software or who is writing software in a > domain that is not a computer domain in the first place and who cares > about all that generalized pros and cons of different operating systems > and licenses. What _we_ (I'm one of them) usually chose is the > platform/bundle that fits best to the user's and/or developer's needs, > so we sometimes end up with different hardware and different operating > systems and different licensed software for different purposes. > > The trousers I wear are made by a different vendor than the guitars I > play. The operating system I'm using for one purpose could be another > operating system, than what I'm using for another purpose. I'm not the > only one who does chose a tool that fits to the purpose instead of > taking care about generalisation. Even within a very special domain > generalisation tends to be inaccurate. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 15:02:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9B52B4923 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:02:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd44.google.com (mail-io1-xd44.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498Z5N4YtCz49rG for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:02:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd44.google.com with SMTP id 19so13773730ioz.10 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=85400ckE7OCMlWvMEA7Lm7ZaINtcsELHlza1R1xN6hE=; b=UgHD+5UQOdSwnBapEI69ZYxQPi1/pw9jBNM4Y2F8cnQLz89SlHPrQFAfMT6QL/DQ9j s+N5NmCTRo5uoA6LVJTamsnIX2eYvY7y0Z//Lx553CzsPkaADCb6dwTtyCS0YXZZLnFD qe+3XhEf0+tuzPprF3xYngiwxlxT3nZufyccw+Iw9EZVoaNhMhEPbbTL+qDeEwxM1GIX nLl/nRd+lAszN5PIdANEwf0FdDsub2gPb1+uXx0OBS4ZiH6ovg6/FNSitg1nlmTkzK0P gb/miS0JNvdkbEtoSNrvubXZ7vzLIyN42oP4vPTV3dBuW4mOgUEae4I8Wbs8+Yxdlh1V n6Cw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=85400ckE7OCMlWvMEA7Lm7ZaINtcsELHlza1R1xN6hE=; b=SxhVwccFew1KGrvAh2+Pzd1jWGE4ZWDhvKQma7k12ZX5C55NWJzBKf9VGN4uuDXf9/ aXcNhatVm6OAzocAZQFFfo4+rRYAYvgVTediWPrnvrFKWSdr1YF2rUO9/pc9u0bKvBHp oS1t9xqZaWj+QT+yCNg2C6wfqzjYy5JdOoSorkKbzQ1zLicoV6RKgDyVx3RhIpVvLkx0 YD2/GDfupdfR0fDE44Ry+M2Qe4gUoxcGGs/GW1L9tmsjfXsGilZSwoIV49IMaV2CwvmF tV/DinioyLQz4UD9xVmTJLn/T9DYNngyn8rs+e47DJpQ4a2x9e7K6nijZP8ArdF57NHM XKNw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubUfwqR0kETBdbtG5Y+GCgHhqExJ7BxkzkhKa677Si/Jf5tmlDS IUysJL/EjIm4yDwVjxSAZQ5j5EYlgeqayIMOTXU9I6FpeT4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLTAV8LSkSKNWQUwb/ZBkhpsCKrFqn/mCDR9qAQ+4QOYA8JdPmicObRaKrYgMZbdrJsTD91uKTItM7W6X4IChM= X-Received: by 2002:a02:9a0d:: with SMTP id b13mr13122668jal.60.1587826934976; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 08:02:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> <20200425055723.00e6f974@archlinux> <20200425100348.3022f215@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200425100348.3022f215@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:02:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Mailman's moderation checkbox?! - Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498Z5N4YtCz49rG X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=UgHD+5UQ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[11]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; SUBJECT_HAS_EXCLAIM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.23), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:02:17 -0000 On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 4:04 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > S t o p spreading misinformation, stop spreading FUD! > > It's hard to ignore such replies. On almost all other mailing lists the > moderation bit already would have been set. > Let me correct your complete mischaracterizing of the stuff I said (or you think I said). The reason for doing this is what you are reading (in your head) and what I said are complete night and day differences. Note, you aren't doing FreeBSD a favour by spreading untruth about > other operating systems. Subscribers of this list don't hate FreeBSD, > so even promo based on facts, without bashing other operating systems > is unneeded. > 1. I did not post the video or any other "promo". Apparently you are confusing me with an other poster in this thread. (Thus my first comment on misreading) 2. My quoting of the licensing article on freebsd.org was not a "promo" for FreeBSD (or anything else) just showing that *MY* thinking is in line with what is already FreeBSD policy (not that policy was right in all cases or for all people or that FreeBSD or any other OS needed to modify their licensing policies). It just so happens that the article identifies all the same issues with GPL that I did, but that is not the same as saying I am promoting FreeBSD or any other OS (it is external evidence I am not alone in my thinking and that's all it was). So I will repeat myself please shut up until you actually know what someone said (read it several times if you must or ask someone who knows English better to explain it to you). This also goes for understanding the background they publicly give for the reason for their thinking (see below where you completely misread the background of my comments). > I never claimed that it is evil to make money by programming and > selling software. By attempting to say GPL does not severely limit the ability to make a living (something claimed by *MANY* people not just me) and complaining about how BSDL limits "freedom of expression" (when it does not) you are saying that selling software is by implication evil because you are only willing to recommend a license that is designed to make it impossible (any loopholes people have found are just that loopholes). If some other developer decides to use GPL I can't stop them (nor do I wish to), but it will also mean I almost certainly can not use their stuff professionally (in many cases). > I also never claimed that you need to buy a hardware > + operating system + user app bundle put together by a dealer. "bundle" > By standard American English and standard American business practices (all name brand computers and phones come completely ready to use) they are sold as one easily (by non-technical end-users) breakable bundle. You wording implied you meant the standard American definitions (you never qualified the wording). > is for the right hardware, for the right operating system, for the > right user application, which results in the right tool. The right tool > for a landscape artist is a tablet PC with a pencil. This is making a huge assumption about how landscape artists prefer to work. Some would prefer the tablet, others would prefer something else. These are the same kind of huge assumptions made by every single pre-canned Linux 3rd party system I have seen (binary or source). Good example is Gentoo does allow you to build vim from source rather easily but it comes with a .vimrc (and default compiler flags) that is highly personalized (and not at all a reasonable lowest common denominator default) to the person who made the port with no provisions are made to make it easy to pick other options (such as the /var/db/port/*/options file in FreeBSD). > The landscape > artist needs a tablet PC, an operating system that does run on a tablet > PC with pencil and a drawing app that does run on the operating system. > You need a bundle, even if you are the one who put it together. > > Thanks to GNU you will hardly find many legal Linux distribution that > are binary only ;), let alone that the FUD you spread about "largely > non-standardized methods of build from source with no real way of > making sure you have all the required packages to compile against" is > See above. I will add if there was a standard way then most programs would not need a "INSTALL" file in them that explains what other packages need to be installed first and such. A good example is the one that comes with Aegis (devel/aegis here on FreeBSD, which I am the maintainer of) which lists over a dozen precondition packages for a successful install. In FreeBSD this is taken care of easily in the port's makefile but due to the non-standardized installation procedures on different Linux distros it would be a O(n!) problem to make the same thing work in the Linux world. (And this with Aegis being written for Linux and requiring a few minor odd hacks in the makefile to make it FreeBSD friendly). ridiculous. You are just unqualified. If you dislike split Linux > packages, just chose a distro that doesn't split software from upstream > into packages for the binaries, libraries, headers, e.g. Arch Linux. If > I never even claimed that splitting is the issue, because the above issues have nothing to do with splitting it up (Aegis is one complete package for example). The primary reason I hate Linux is the opaqueness of all aspects of it from the core parts of a distro to how almost all of them do 3rd party software. In short Linux is made by hackers for hackers whereas FreeBSD is made by computer professionals for computer professionals. you don't like Linux at all, don't care about it at all. However, even > distros that split software from upstream into several packages tend to > provide a fine user manual, e.g. Debian and Ubuntu. > I have tried both manuals and either they are too detail oriented and focus on the wrong details or they read like the manual for a car that has a "check engine" light either everything is fine and there is the check engine light is not on or it is on and gives you 0 clue to what is wrong until you have a qualified mechanic do a check of it for big $. I would rather have a (old) VW Bug where it is fully maintainable and understandable by any mechanically inclined person. FreeBSD installs meet this requirement; Linux ones almost never do. > A "computers for self purpose" is for a computer that isn't used as a > useful tool in a special non-computer domain, it's for a computer that > is just used as computer in a native computer domain. I do not mean > for "selfish purposes". > Due to likely a language barrier your wording was ambiguous at best. If you mean something then please clearly state it in non-ambiguous terms. > > There's a difference between coders who have got knowledge about > computers and a special native non-computer domain, such as music, > drawing art, elementary particle physics, bookkeeping etc. and coders > who only have knowledge about computers. > You're right there is a huge difference and the difference is if you have an other profession than programming is a hobby or a side job not the main way you put food on the table. Please accept the fact that GPL is designed to make it impossible for people who do programming as their primary job to make a living (unless working for a organization whose primary business/funding source is not software). I gave all the reasons in an other post but it comes down to GPL makes the assumption you make your money from anything *BUT* programmer and/or some large organization is paying you do GPL programming. None of that is true for a freelancer and telling freelancers to go F themselves due to not recognizing this the same as saying making money from programming (and programming alone) is "evil". > I never met somebody who needs software or who is writing software in a > domain that is not a computer domain in the first place and who cares > about all that generalized pros and cons of different operating systems > and licenses. What _we_ (I'm one of them) usually chose is the > Go talk to *ANY* medical software developer in the US and they will tell you at least on the licensing side it is the biggest and most important legal question asked due to HIPAA (so if you don't know US, or other countries, regulations/laws don't make assumptions that are clearly false). For more info see https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/index.html and https://www.ama-assn.org/practice-management/hipaa/hipaa-violations-enforcement (Note custom made medical software development is considered a business associate if done for a covered entity). -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 15:03:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D232B4A4B for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:03:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic307-54.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic307-54.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498Z755M9zz49yn for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:03:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: JS1NLLoVM1m3il.Mrl5WC9u2d3x7JGfb8z8UdZx_0EvYFfPwC4IOty9wK912M6u UVrq5H4xIudZ1uMfEL2XUKkkHFQlri.qWyPh3RDpKZIf3x3wNkyPGsVQzRzfriUt79fjb7_WEw_u yyvJEbwma8fsdOtjGRdcz3PfE84qMnXpQxcHSJkeD_eZdJCDBBRVrl6MLK.LhMX4ykN4kbT_xUh7 tcdd3EkpkqiumS8ZIlPzYIAx36oEAW7Bqs.yhtPSSJDUmPeHbFeagEPj5Vyo1sf2KQ7IrKmXZIj2 93DGxOVAmT1Hh4r_UxdRoOCmogUJFf2rF9qiHEjlvs6lmhX62ag.aO4tPwYUNIXPLRjODI1zwtWF .0hc6giXMgzyr6voQD4HNAGS_uGxLAM4Q0n7CNe4XFzOfAQKX2WXNNXU09lCnvXa1nFANgmL_Ql6 W803U7j.fB6SE4OtS1jNq4Ud4D939LjAMqaGdgUo5mW_zK5dlmfxRCevTPE4MuVYqriPMqTGWY8_ 3ACsv1MeHqTY48QHu_rNjN_EOLvpfgQDyePVGALpyFWLjyDVXp98bPkJiRdmj7Gp.gvJ5lVspRWX Gip63vZyQLxnJAJ7zu8367uRXbqbcSoLak9fSEdbDuuBDybAQ2rE_0AaQ__O.AoZtxIRbpH0fWXM YyrNfp2MUdl3iXEsZiVK.zIpX7hYuaA53oOCuj1UZFHMXDvusui7V_swojqOsiYotUnlsU.IUqFv 4h6XMznS8fKJJ87ltDRooWMtFpkid5tTwopxKH900QE8P089EcNz29yX5ypLoR93WxPRJQUhh.RU 3y2q08ILB7PVhI6_M79skNyhwxNl7UStz_aIzh5mcVVzGXt1GT2tySnCZnswQuoEEpW0_p6eA7OU RYlgg3cUVLSO39.hmT2yEn0LLzwTHJmjEajE4GrXg.aTMiVG797pqMse5kXSa2ywnpy9RPX6qqDF ctq_Oi6r2E80Pae8OPNzSZGUvIiOEQl2Yjr2AJKI6t5ECzMcRQqEeNu1HX74CM_Exiai0dyZNc2b MHdng0g0WHU1RvE4mt0mGxswtpMf3g.tBsCzGzKEdoBG6.K8CIKfG6mgZmJO5z4g6Dio7zQFEbPC XACB6tYkZrCAZheblWn7a9f6pepC_FyI26ZbbNhinqxnUFNZXGySSZmj3kZo.TLWqgAz6r8oeIqJ 7RL.y8NU.mDbeBDPUBJDoAIxrK6vbkx185XG9CeX..sEHdVZQFZlPVYqezeWfa5tKdsRGuPCPzZp yI4SJuB6TqpuukbsgBcIk8HTbENWGOdEKjeybHG7ZjSeHcVxbBsZQCjjdT8mgAXNjWPGxet7mIWD 8obQXWrFKkFWVwPdy2rllVYC5bhsasp_plm0yyWkD3uGS Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:03:43 +0000 Received: by smtp415.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 29733ecbf60d77cc26cc3a35cb7a4117; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:03:38 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel@rocketmail.com> Subject: FreeBSD live USB stick From: Ralf Mardorf To: FreeBSD Questions Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 17:03:40 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel.ref@rocketmail.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15756 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498Z755M9zz49yn X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.71)[-0.709,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.913,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[31.110.248.87.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (5.41), ipnet: 87.248.110.0/24(2.31), asn: 34010(1.67), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[31.110.248.87.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:87.248.110.0/24, country:GB]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 15:03:47 -0000 Hi, I want to have FreeBSD on a 32 GB USB 3.0 stick. Since I'm an openbox user NomadBSD [1] looks promising to me. Any opinions or hints? Regards, Ralf [1] https://nomadbsd.org/handbook/handbook.html#intro From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 18:00:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C940A2BB5E5 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:00:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.io (ciao.gmane.io [159.69.161.202]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498f2W5nyNz4Nk1 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:00:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jSP5t-000TuC-UL for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:00:01 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Morten Bo Johansen Subject: Re: Mailman's moderation checkbox?! - Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 19:57:03 +0200 Message-ID: References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> <20200425055723.00e6f974@archlinux> <20200425100348.3022f215@archlinux> <762afc18-324a-05ab-cf1b-68de2afea9ae@kicp.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: mbj@mbjnet.dk User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (Linux) Mail-Copies-To: Never X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498f2W5nyNz4Nk1 X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.43 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[mbj@mbjnet.dk]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.23)[-0.235,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_QUARANTINE(1.50)[mbjnet.dk : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,quarantine]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.63)[-0.626,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_EXCLAIM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.21)[ip: (0.80), ipnet: 159.69.0.0/16(-0.29), asn: 24940(-1.54), country: DE(-0.02)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[listmail@mbjnet.dk,freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:159.69.0.0/16, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[listmail@mbjnet.dk,freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:00:04 -0000 On 2020-04-25 Valeri Galtsev wrote: > I join you and ask list moderators to ban that person from the list. freebsd-questions is on news.gmane.io, so you can use a news reader, like e.g. slrn to kill file authors, threads, etc., that you don't want to see. In slrn it takes just two key strokes to do that! Maybe that is better than to crank up your blood pressure over some single individual? ;) Morten From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 18:01:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F2722BB72A for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:01:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498f484DDdz4P0y for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:01:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:01:24 -0700 Subject: Re: FreeBSD live USB stick To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel.ref@rocketmail.com> <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel@rocketmail.com> From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:01:24 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel@rocketmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498f484DDdz4P0y X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.68 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.942,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.64)[ipnet: 184.104.0.0/15(0.42), asn: 6939(-3.60), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[27.128.105.184.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:01:30 -0000 On 2020-04-25 08:03, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > Hi, > > I want to have FreeBSD on a 32 GB USB 3.0 stick. Since I'm an openbox > user NomadBSD [1] looks promising to me. Any opinions or hints? > > Regards, > Ralf > > [1] https://nomadbsd.org/handbook/handbook.html#intro I have installed FreeBSD onto SanDisk Ultra Fit 16 GB USB 3.0 flash drives. I like these for their compact form factor, which reduces the chance of mechanical damage to the drive and/or port/ motherboard. However, they run hot, they are not a good choice for high-endurance applications (I cooked a 128 GB model using it for Time Machine backups in a MacBook Pro), and write performance is an obvious limitation when running a graphical desktop. I have experienced problems with both FreeBSD and Linux when using these drives in USB 3.0 ports, but not with USB 2.0 ports. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 18:21:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0922BC71E for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:21:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic312-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic312-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498fWl3qgNz4QVk for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:21:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: jC63YnoVM1k5Ds2QMQUHi5VofNz4bXbKUTYup_ZY10OOTXVw.vEvG5XQ3b5ZXnd SDdrxTqo1rfN14sXUzXqeNT1VGFL582RS_aLgkiYisvFTGoPWnQ_bOkbNB7GDj2dKQPAewL4KItD jxMgvcmNE5LeAj.aVkGIFqqAkoE9gIzfvEuVg2aJAC1P9OB8aTIc9n7iFnH14JbTzhKcRcjXOlML 3LnVRBbPqGH1j3.m3lfRaSQiJ5x.UEspVTXEGtz7E5QzTc1NsNSn52JPf1GOrDib2WbTOGI880zu L6wnSzKHR5YCRm7bFMDGP6mxruIcB.n8jvcZ2yiuqIccohb8vmnud3sI2KGJ_hrihKx4NOTBEAit Ltp6TMj_jSaPc5a0kVFVDzjKUwtBjff16q3cEMKbYrnq4ARpfZWhxUX4F0Nli_f0a80wswQhVH5v 1hX8Kf_6cdQTgY3alx0A6Ny7V5PgldEr95c54pQIUSXDxRhGl_19qlpRCY.Yw6RZ_4IoSXdA24Pj odxUOhYElvcrP4gG2Vs7IVXmdRoEQn1M6D80m2oKLwVBOsx7.LaaJmC441HG5GwQV_u7VU_BJfk9 y0yFr5GBzpZ61drN_dH7OD31AE5lQ_e0qVJF5bJgs_Yrt._7nr9fpWQJGzNsW2jxizwIfEM2quIH yR0wxANn7AF9BVmA.ggVb5rCS3UE1x.2IDGFOI9mpXbioGeeaC3q37uOmVIAvFqtcZAlYu3v_SR9 77OyERXMNjF0dY66H5KgxahK0_EIu1pbyNObt6SVUKpMlspDKg249KxtDo5bB1Uo0PUTVzq5A2fI Y0ozsIpdRR9jGGQu6.ODrf6bb66N1dw9JHGKK0YYJO4GFebPHdl5lD1WnQwpkB.XVtVqBWwTdM2G oQtILZxQfVcZZgYkgf6818.N009vt834cOxmJZzMO4CfrhAocODuESGBV0YANHUqoXIJJw_yIFy7 DZAZucTOR9sDMoFZ0OCUGqy2J.KDQq3fzYujGn3xFYwtzXKV2nBNpmubdGMsDo6qpGeq5ivNBCY3 y3sRZO3.HCSbNiRwKYJS149VegqyQNiiy5W9BENPS9ukElfQrxdAxJe.MlID7pHxvFfjFpDiCf90 pTfmVQCQnFTd5Woe3miX.TiFlZnI9wi.N.lvykxh2x6IBuxQn3NQ6nsNGcxK7suOMZGUKBUbeQxq Hmokeu39HtI7zoOhk2_ljoM0AsGBKXUS5qiw5lVukJjXAvzMNotNuDuhNCNppBnQldIkQ4kuadV0 r6e.SU7xn6jWn.O1RhuyxUQLm1r5QhO0dwDxOFVqrC1MwAY8Np1IQ9UiEOkxcIshgLoAqO1XZOqS Cca6LgFBk9p..kgmkDZxlvm4IBZETTmjjyGJ95DGXBOFEy8jMoSoCSxnJZnJaagWu1c.ujDQEVgi VJAmu399J Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:21:53 +0000 Received: by smtp411.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4a949daba7c6e837bd2c06ca1efd6352; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:21:47 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD live USB stick From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:21:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel.ref@rocketmail.com> <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel@rocketmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15756 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498fWl3qgNz4QVk X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.77)[-0.766,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.94)[-0.941,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[97.178.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.20), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.11), asn: 34010(1.67), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[97.178.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:21:57 -0000 On Sat, 2020-04-25 at 11:01 -0700, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-04-25 08:03, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I want to have FreeBSD on a 32 GB USB 3.0 stick. Since I'm an openbox > > user NomadBSD [1] looks promising to me. Any opinions or hints? > > > > Regards, > > Ralf > > > > [1] https://nomadbsd.org/handbook/handbook.html#intro > > I have installed FreeBSD onto SanDisk Ultra Fit 16 GB USB 3.0 flash > drives. I like these for their compact form factor, which reduces the > chance of mechanical damage to the drive and/or port/ motherboard. > However, they run hot, they are not a good choice for high-endurance > applications (I cooked a 128 GB model using it for Time Machine backups > in a MacBook Pro), and write performance is an obvious limitation when > running a graphical desktop. I have experienced problems with both > FreeBSD and Linux when using these drives in USB 3.0 ports, but not with > USB 2.0 ports. Thank you for the pointer. I noticed that a Toshiba 32 GB USB 2 stick gets hot when either connected to my Roland GR-55 guitar synth or to a hub connected with my Linux PC, just by being connected and at worst by sharing a few bytes of data. For the live FreeBSD I ordered a Toshiba USB 3 stick. I never noticed that my aged 8GB and smaller USB sticks get hot, by just being connected or sharing a few bytes of data. I still could cancel the order and purchase another aged USB stick. Fortunately the openbox Window manager is not that bloated as almost all desktop environments. However, I didn't had head in mind. I hope the temperature would not become a show stopper. Until now I only used Linux live DVDs, if I needed a live media. I thought it would be a good idea to migrate to either a BSD or Linux on an USB stick. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 18:32:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA24F2BCC1F for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:32:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic310-24.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic310-24.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.186.205]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498fmK60BFz4RJh for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:32:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: lwXsV2sVM1mMTTpaeazxMWIapO2IWYCjmm5Xi_.K0NlnZtpc1Y4WBruMm8ao_Ie bKMo3tWyTzHV9FB2wEg3pvi_KxM.BYBO8Tb3jgmD0BqOZd9.UMSbmuSQCMkAw5Xc4cxpHHLAbQYI iUmL0RNbBy3c9yx7QqGVKCr109o3.NhqKCbF2AoRCyAwCukrwfDLqFk.xpSXO88b8.bLB0wRS5nR WPOIz37HwVonjEtimGLxMZDUbk.dNo3aUyCJEEc9bHmEiarMXd1JmBVA6ArAAfY5JJ7aCThTZjuS HK_GgTWRShaJ3G9CymoTP.7fBzRkcOt_MaM_50XKUrG4skXDMSx0hI1UgBD0M5Zii.JZmRiZpZJy .SQpC7nCksq0R3ylPoG35wLRX.SgxEKq8dJdKPMoczZsYN5D2JTUGaYgRGFaJ65R8Er0b0YfG5dq K_YQAf87qLTn7Gw9Jgh_fei7v8RoE7Dlv.04gvj9qfxi63.Y1sOdZWYgt5ghzOXzSKkAzdWnIiRL wcMPlnGPwbrC3IWbCKVQDmIsClMvoizYCgfJ8Np5NiXuFwOz53nTPaJwBDddq5uwFEzCv6ezOfsd U_vRm05Z6CIafclmjyEk6k3pib1GgeWjfEQqCFrnmFsYPQT7oWVY9TNpJi9SCqDZkpgdnJ8rsSeT F9IvdnVwG_Xca0zaRDCbEgUxxTDzwhWISQ9mC8fLKwjm4_KEKy9DXv0sqdDI7Cx7tptRgwPb1W.D oHxhNAgX4p6ySsCe702zuTez2NMqFrZWyUSKSa3iQISE7GnwrgTGfAQojw50n4tCXj7DSAPdIXp_ 2GZgIU5g644kXdTBNHkPcwMNElfDq429_uj_nL85WP1wb.f8wXS80g3Kt8NRgoeAzjHmiNXV3vXB RMK.QhjwHVX8UJWqhMbb9wLhHZ4fx8hfIvfCA9xo_K4YXzUyIm0xBEzV3DwdNZ6YBoBYmImkZe2l 3O3e15IKfTYOFC6yKk0uR.6YcHBVcmEJowdA_s49.eMpXzN1iaZdotprARGMxbDX_ITfFXH9MHpf VqZ4lGJdcExX7q_GxuN1c1_eXWE1M8HQBLjOligukGiMQNMDWBSDyIARIfvgdhA3bToaoEfkq8OJ R_GkOE.TMF6YvI8C4VJcG9yX6h.SUxotN4iWK3SlIxxTWpRoxPhJP06HSbBuy11QeU5e7nW6Mv0b EeSUAmwgN66I4ffBpWQPTeXgq_4JI_4Hmu54RlnGViTeoRT4VxbknNQf.A_9l3qbmixFV1RRnQ2I fvSAFZ9i2WtSKkMBUcyRAV1_Jop0B6zUsJJX3q93mfL8p2htJvdGUHsl.AsayTeRil3xJnFyuocO _XsptgGH5aQmyg6rneve9sIMzzmHTyXJm Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:32:48 +0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:32:43 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: FreeBSD Questions , Ralf Mardorf Message-ID: <1954456826.236624.1587839563757@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel@rocketmail.com> References: <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel.ref@rocketmail.com> <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel@rocketmail.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD live USB stick MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15756 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:75.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/75.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498fmK60BFz4RJh X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.93 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.940,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[205.186.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.48), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.15), asn: 36646(0.92), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[205.186.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:32:50 -0000 The 'filesystems' say that there's a lot of support for Linux type filesys= tems. What is important to me?=C2=A0 ZFS....=C2=A0 Nothing better, especially for= simplicity of use and robustness. Paul On Saturday, April 25, 2020, 11:03:55 AM EDT, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-= questions wrote: =20 =20 Hi, I want to have FreeBSD on a 32 GB USB 3.0 stick. Since I'm an openbox user NomadBSD [1] looks promising to me. Any opinions or hints? Regards, Ralf [1] https://nomadbsd.org/handbook/handbook.html#intro _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 18:33:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89992BCD32 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:33:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498fn10C0cz4RP7 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:33:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.142.145]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 472EE4E691 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:33:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Mailman's moderation checkbox?! - Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com> <20200425055723.00e6f974@archlinux> <20200425100348.3022f215@archlinux> <762afc18-324a-05ab-cf1b-68de2afea9ae@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:33:21 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498fn10C0cz4RP7 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.73 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[145.142.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.10)[ip: (0.28), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.14), asn: 160(0.11), country: US(-0.05)]; SUBJECT_HAS_EXCLAIM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.941,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_HAS_QUESTION(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 18:33:25 -0000 On 4/25/20 12:57 PM, Morten Bo Johansen via freebsd-questions wrote: > On 2020-04-25 Valeri Galtsev wrote: > >> I join you and ask list moderators to ban that person from the list. > > freebsd-questions is on news.gmane.io, so you can use a news > reader, like e.g. slrn to kill file authors, threads, etc., > that you don't want to see. In slrn it takes just two key > strokes to do that! Maybe that is better than to crank up your > blood pressure over some single individual? ;) Thanks, Morten. However, that only will cover me, mitigate my own annoyance. This will not cover spreading of misinformation through well respected mail list to my regret allowing itself to be abused. It will not cover people I respect and routinely get help from from being abused by disrespectful (to name it the mildest) person on this respected mail list. Thanks for advise though. Valeri > > Morten > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 25 20:52:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756D62C0F26 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:52:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 498jsD1B58z4ZGF for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:52:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:52:06 -0700 Subject: Re: FreeBSD live USB stick To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel.ref@rocketmail.com> <4ccdd6e57db9817c48ff492cb82361ebe820cf86.camel@rocketmail.com> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <503ac059-c4a5-d618-9b85-e154339e1f36@holgerdanske.com> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 13:52:06 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 498jsD1B58z4ZGF X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.80 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.987,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.71)[ip: (-0.28), ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.65), asn: 6939(-3.60), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 20:52:17 -0000 On 2020-04-25 11:21, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Sat, 2020-04-25 at 11:01 -0700, David Christensen wrote: >> On 2020-04-25 08:03, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I want to have FreeBSD on a 32 GB USB 3.0 stick. Since I'm an openbox >>> user NomadBSD [1] looks promising to me. Any opinions or hints? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Ralf >>> >>> [1] https://nomadbsd.org/handbook/handbook.html#intro >> >> I have installed FreeBSD onto SanDisk Ultra Fit 16 GB USB 3.0 flash >> drives. I like these for their compact form factor, which reduces the >> chance of mechanical damage to the drive and/or port/ motherboard. >> However, they run hot, they are not a good choice for high-endurance >> applications (I cooked a 128 GB model using it for Time Machine backups >> in a MacBook Pro), and write performance is an obvious limitation when >> running a graphical desktop. I have experienced problems with both >> FreeBSD and Linux when using these drives in USB 3.0 ports, but not with >> USB 2.0 ports. > > Thank you for the pointer. > > I noticed that a Toshiba 32 GB USB 2 stick gets hot when either > connected to my Roland GR-55 guitar synth or to a hub connected with my > Linux PC, just by being connected and at worst by sharing a few bytes of > data. For the live FreeBSD I ordered a Toshiba USB 3 stick. I never > noticed that my aged 8GB and smaller USB sticks get hot, by just being > connected or sharing a few bytes of data. I still could cancel the order > and purchase another aged USB stick. > > Fortunately the openbox Window manager is not that bloated as almost all > desktop environments. > > However, I didn't had head in mind. I hope the temperature would not > become a show stopper. > > Until now I only used Linux live DVDs, if I needed a live media. I > thought it would be a good idea to migrate to either a BSD or Linux on > an USB stick. After the 128 GB Ultra Fit failed, I shopped around for high-endurance USB flash drives. These are hard to find, especially in larger capacties. I did find one OEM that makes industrial flash devices in various capacities and form factors, including USB: https://www.cactus-tech.com/products/industrial-grade/usb-flash-drive/ Unfortunately, Cactus Technologies is an OEM and does not sell into retail channels. I contacted them, and they offered to sell me two 16 GB drives (USB 2.0?) for $39 plus shipping with a lead time of 5 weeks ARO (if not in stock). STFW 'industrial usb flash' there are a few other manufacturers and/or distributors. The MacBook Pro has an SD Card slot. SanDisk high-endurance microSD cards are readily available, so I went with that: https://shop.westerndigital.com/products/memory-cards/sandisk-high-endurance-uhs-i-microsd#SDSQQNR-032G-AN6IA SanDisk also makes a "max endurance" model: https://shop.westerndigital.com/products/memory-cards/sandisk-max-endurance-uhs-i-microsd#SDSQQVR-032G-AN6IA STFW I see that some people put these into USB adapters and use them as live drives. If you run embedded systems with SD/ microSD slots (Rasperry Pi, etc.), this might be a better way to go. David