From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Fri Jun 1 06:09:08 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D948EF8FA8 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 06:09:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johalun0@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr0-x235.google.com (mail-wr0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 924C77F5C0; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 06:09:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johalun0@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr0-x235.google.com with SMTP id d8-v6so3907767wro.4; Thu, 31 May 2018 23:09:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FEI5bA5bdSRHe6ItwWQyOjnkMrmeJuuLhP+WGTU/yFo=; b=IwB+Uk13sAdD7pxqt6OaCCEWRx18g5/gbg389JLnQoUrLFvrIlOc6eC7wWLpXbUwrB AUf2xRta1SIAN9KnkG4CiP3Ogi4QKfvIXPRsdkfQXHP+/Fwi0Mst1y1M8KcFut8EcUX2 sAqqHX39jlzeAJotzaQKtuYJwSBcDpiSjEFXeOXebyn86r3DARDR255E3bWtjgbKoa8h zHc6jKl2u3iEszEiIIkS65BwBB+0LYViR7+VFOhHBczomsTYs4uIYxLWMKGdCmmQuIZg 0Ebzuj2WZyJmu8a2ZENp7BgwxZ+GGVjjPsQNJWfU9n/ZqFA1g2l+ljRuF6kjBdKZm0/X +jWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FEI5bA5bdSRHe6ItwWQyOjnkMrmeJuuLhP+WGTU/yFo=; b=lfBebP4Jw9nEAwbOYcMQeVSkBmHhK4hv7AWInfN7lxqHvhR8ZSwgheKzfAJf4FUMA6 hC0CTD+k194lLJhRgxEAMlhCJNaGayS7Il34eRgn8Jzq+WiihjsH30tNPJQmcBcS7I3u jpGuwu6Ysz2HhzfItcNKB2YNb3CDF0GSzSp4JBMYtyv/yufbbp0IVVW3ckYhXKBsQJPA pxXLWqXAb1/umr3ee1nGjwWa6v9wShSC9jVl0dhCRBlufNL6aUekD4q/i/A60mBrb6e5 pv/FHYREzJpCkWIi49oAC6KY+z+/ej8I8Y7Wf+fNMKZdPL+x9Fc0yHx/zDwwepXYjEXw Z/YA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwew+iWZm5sVKJ1RFCRSRdw24dvvbLDH+RatvSrnNvMTT1qOfAFE IVN6cMuHoHkZRCYGujG32yxIhgRvCdIA+Y8DnLw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKKE05cCRwJTI4jCecyH7WtMYcfvmDsNmY+F52mxshjKHQglqFXjaBso5LEVNYeDEGfclXn51TWIgobM+W/W+7U= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:46c6:: with SMTP id g6-v6mr1227353wrs.76.1527833346450; Thu, 31 May 2018 23:09:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180524160234.GD68014@FreeBSD.org> <201805241610.w4OGAAGY041280@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <20180530235156.310870d0@thor.intern.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20180531101643.GV3789@kib.kiev.ua> In-Reply-To: From: Johannes Lundberg Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 07:08:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [RFC] Deprecation and removal of the drm2 driver To: Oliver Pinter Cc: jmaloney@ixsystems.com, deischen@freebsd.org, Konstantin Belousov , freebsd-current Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.26 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2018 06:09:08 -0000 On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:34 PM Oliver Pinter < oliver.pinter@hardenedbsd.org> wrote: > > > On Thursday, May 31, 2018, Johannes Lundberg wrote: > >> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 4:34 PM Joe Maloney >> wrote: >> >> > I personally wish that more drivers, and firmware were separated from >> > base. >> > >> > >> I'm not a committer > > >> >> > If you are not a committer, how and why want to remove drm2 from the base > system? > Nice way to shoot down people (who are working together with active committers) trying to make FreeBSD and it's derivatives a better OS for its users. As a way to help prevent breakage I suggested an upgrade to the outdated build infrastructure. Something that should be done anyway. But what do I know, I don't have a commit bit... > > From other side, how you want to maintain VM and other KPI changes in > unmaintained and abandoned port? ;) Or how you can guarantee to everyone > who breaks KPI to follow these breaks in an external abandoned port? > > >> >> but as I understand there's not pre-commit integration >> tests.. If one had that, plus that it would test build kmod ports against >> the pre-commit state of head as well, then maybe this would work. >> >> >> > For example wireless firmware: >> > >> > https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=169433 >> > >> > That was a ticket which I chimed in on about a firmware I needed to make >> > my wireless adapter work. I went through numerous efforts on IRC, and >> > elsewhere to try to bring attention that ticket in order to attempt to >> get >> > that firmware backported for several 10.x releases in a row without >> > success. The firmware worked perfectly fine in PC-BSD where it was >> cherry >> > picked for numerous 10.x releases. >> > >> > Technically since I was using PC-BSD, and was a committer for that >> project >> > I had no real dire need to reach out to FreeBSD about the issue. I was >> > simply trying to help anyone else who might be encountering the same >> issue >> > trying to use stock FreeBSD because it was a simple backport. If my >> effort >> > had turned out to be more fruitful I would have spent more time pursuing >> > tickets, diffs, or whatever to get more things back-ported when I found >> > them. I am not sure where the breakdown was which did not allow that to >> > happen. Anyways I don't want to bikeshed, or anything but I just >> wanted to >> > point out how I think having more drivers, and firmware in ports could >> be >> > helpful to enhance compatibility for end users. >> > >> > Having a separate port for legacy drm could definitely make things >> easier >> > to providing installation options for end users, and automating the post >> > install action chosen in TrueOS, GhostBSD, and future derivative >> projects >> > tailored for the desktop use case. For example for TrueOS we boot the >> > installer in failsafe mode with either VESA, or SCFB depending on >> whether >> > or not BIOS, or EFI is booted. Then we could simply make a checkbox for >> > legacy intel, or skylake + to install the correct package then the >> module >> > path for either driver can more or less remain the same. Eventually >> with >> > something like devmatch maybe that can even be fully automatic. >> > >> > Joe Maloney >> > >> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Daniel Eischen >> > wrote: >> > >> >> On Thu, 31 May 2018, Konstantin Belousov wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 08:34:44AM +0100, Johannes Lundberg wrote: >> >>> >> >>> We're not replacing anything. We are moving the older drm1 and drm2 >> from >> >>>> kernel to ports to make it easier for the majority of the users to >> load >> >>>> the >> >>>> correct driver without conflicts. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> You do understand that you increase your maintainence load by this >> move. >> >>> dev/drm and dev/drm2 use KPIs which cannot be kept stable even in >> stable >> >>> branches, so you will need to chase these updates. >> >>> >> >> >> >> I agree. One argument previously made was that it's easier >> >> to maintain in ports. One data point from me - I rarely >> >> update my ports, I update my OS much more frequently. In >> >> fact, some times my ports get so out of date I just >> >> (take off and) nuke /usr/local (from orbit, it's the only >> >> way to be sure). >> >> >> >> Also, are we trying to solve a problem by moving drm[2] to >> >> ports that won't be a problem when base is pkg'ized? If >> >> drm[2] is a package unto itself, then you don't have this >> >> problem of ports conflicting with it, at least not so >> >> much. You can either not install the base drm[2] package >> >> or deinstall it to make way for a conflicting port. Once >> >> drm[2] is pkg rm'd, it's not going to be reinstalled >> >> again when you update the base OS. >> >> >> >> And don't we have the same problem with sendmail and a >> >> few other base services? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> DE >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list >> >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >> >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org >> >> " >> >> >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org >> " >> >