From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 4:50:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FBE37B407 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 04:50:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.9]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0GEP00APFQ7QY3@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 04:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 862A917D6; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 04:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 04:50:13 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: MTA authentications In-reply-to: <200106100343.f5A3hjU53739@lists.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:43:44PM -0400 To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010610045013.B556@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <20010609195855.A2662@zippy.mybox.zip> <200106100343.f5A3hjU53739@lists.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:43:44PM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > I also meant to say that it appears that this new "standard" is not > backwards compatible. It is very much so. SSL is implemented via smtps (and depreciated), and is essentially just SMTP being wrapped with SSL. TLS has been integrated fully into SMTP (forgot the RFC here) via the STARTTLS (STLS in POP3) command. Thus your MTA seems to be coerced into attempting an TLS connection (this is advertised w/ the EHLO response)... and it's being denied. Likely because of lack of certificate. If your MTA didn't support TLS at all, you {probably,should} see a different error message. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 6:36:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E8F37B42C for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 06:36:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5ADa1U61233; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 01:36:02 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106101336.f5ADa1U61233@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Alex Zepeda Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:36:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: MTA authentications Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org References: <200106100343.f5A3hjU53739@lists.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:43:44PM -0400 In-reply-to: <20010610045013.B556@zippy.mybox.zip> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 Jun 2001, at 4:50, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:43:44PM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > > > I also meant to say that it appears that this new "standard" is not > > backwards compatible. > > It is very much so. SSL is implemented via smtps (and depreciated), and > is essentially just SMTP being wrapped with SSL. TLS has been integrated > fully into SMTP (forgot the RFC here) via the STARTTLS (STLS in POP3) > command. > > Thus your MTA seems to be coerced into attempting an TLS connection (this > is advertised w/ the EHLO response)... and it's being denied. Likely > because of lack of certificate. If your MTA didn't support TLS at all, > you {probably,should} see a different error message. Interesting. I just tried a manual message: [dan@lists:/etc/mail] $ telnet mail.thedatasource.net 25 Trying 207.91.110.72... Connected to mail.thedatasource.net. Escape character is '^]'. 220 thedatasource.net ESMTP CommuniGate Pro 3.2.4 helo lists.unixathome.org 250 thedatasource.net is pleased to meet you mail from: dan@langille.org 250 dan@langille.org sender accepted rcpt to: piskapo@thedatasource.net 250 piskapo@thedatasource.net will leave the Internet DATA 354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself This is a test message. Mail to you has been blocked by the following error: Jun 11 00:31:42 lists sendmail[59846]: f583XcY11785: TLS: error: SSL_connect failed=0 (5) Jun 11 00:31:42 lists sendmail[59846]: f583XcY11785: ruleset=tls_server, arg1=SOFTWARE, relay=dan@localhost, rejec t=403 4.7.0 piskapo@thedatasource.net... TLS handshake failed. . 250 1090082 message accepted for delivery quit 221 thedatasource.net SMTP The Data Source Network Closing - All Your e-mail Are Belong To Us! Connection closed by foreign host. Which appears to have worked... But when I tried to send a message to the postmaster: Jun 11 01:29:26 lists sendmail[61162]: f5ADTOU61162: from=, size=1172, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid= <200106101329.f5ADTOU61162@lists.unixathome.org>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103. 158] Jun 11 01:29:28 lists sendmail[61164]: f5ADTOU61162: TLS: error: SSL_connect failed=0 (5) Jun 11 01:29:28 lists sendmail[61164]: f5ADTOU61162: ruleset=tls_server, arg1=SOFTWARE, relay=lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158], reject=403 4.7.0 ... TLS handshake failed. Jun 11 01:29:28 lists sendmail[61164]: f5ADTOU61162: to=, ctladdr= (1001/1001), delay=00:00:03, xdelay=00:00:02, mailer=esmtp, pri=31172, relay=mail.thedatasource.net. [207.91.110. 72], dsn=4.0.0, stat=Deferred: 403 4.7.0 ... TLS handshake failed. Hmmmm. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 8: 2:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8795837B403 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 08:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antipode@thpoon.com) Received: (qmail 46088 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2001 15:02:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (qmailr@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 10 Jun 2001 15:02:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 10863 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2001 15:02:30 -0000 To: Chip Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Cats and computers (was: My cat crashed my BSD box) References: <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 10 Jun 2001 11:02:30 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> Message-ID: <87ofrwqsxl.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Academic Rigor) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip writes: > Totally hosed X. Yeah, cats like to find their uses for computer equipment. A friend of mine bought this HP laser printer; he'd been looking for a used one in good condition for a *long* time. To set the context, the story is happening in Russia. There the cats commonly don't have luxury of specially purchased cat litter, and often have to do their things in cat boxes simply lined with newspaper. So, my friend installs the printer on his desk, prints a test page, and, satisfied, goes about some other stuff around the house. The cat, though, decides that the printer is a fancy cat box: it had a tray on the top, which was nicely lined with the paper of the test page. So, the rascal pees in it. p.s. Needless to say, my friend's fury had not limits. But he dedicated his efforts to try to rescue the new purchase. He couldn't think of anything better than to give the printer a bath: he says that there were tiny drops of cat urine all over the lenses etc. It was quite surprising that the printer actually worked after the incident, apparently even better than before, because it received a nice cleaning. :) My friend doesn't leave paper uncollected from the top tray. -- Arcady Genkin i=1; while 1, hilb(i); i=i+1; end To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 8:51: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F2837B403 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 08:51:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA05508; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:50:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Chip Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: My cat crashed my BSD box References: <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Jun 2001 17:50:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip writes: > Here's a new one - this happened the other night. My cat likes to > sit on my desk while I'm at my computer, which is fine, most of the > time. Though she usually chooses the mouse pad as her favorite > place to sit down, or lay down. She'll lay right on top of the > mouse, sometimes even across the keypad part of the keyboard. I gave > her an unused mouse pad to sit on, but she doesn't like it. Of course not. She's trying to get your attention, and she won't get that by sitting on a mouse pad you're not using. Try teaching her to sit in your lap instead. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 9:59: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phaidor.thuvia.org (thuvia.demon.co.uk [193.237.34.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1E237B40C for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@thuvia.demon.co.uk) Received: from dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (dotar-sojat.thuvia.org [10.0.0.4]) by phaidor.thuvia.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5AGxMm25402; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:59:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@dotar-sojat.thuvia.org) Received: (from mark@localhost) by dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f5AGx0676158; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:59:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:59:00 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Valentine Message-Id: <200106101659.f5AGx0676158@dotar-sojat.thuvia.org> In-Reply-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav's message of Jun 10, 3:54pm X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 beta(5) 10/07/98) To: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav), Chip Subject: Re: My cat crashed my BSD box Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) > Date: Sun 10 Jun, 2001 > Subject: Re: My cat crashed my BSD box > Chip writes: > > Here's a new one - this happened the other night. My cat likes to > > sit on my desk while I'm at my computer, which is fine, most of the > > time. Though she usually chooses the mouse pad as her favorite > > place to sit down, or lay down. She'll lay right on top of the > > mouse, sometimes even across the keypad part of the keyboard. I gave > > her an unused mouse pad to sit on, but she doesn't like it. > > Of course not. She's trying to get your attention, and she won't get > that by sitting on a mouse pad you're not using. Try teaching her to > sit in your lap instead. That solution doesn't scale well... Just make sure there are enough warm surfaces free around you (computer equipment is idea), the more elevated the better. I currently have two cats lounging around on top of one of my monitors. Though I get annoyed when tails and paws start obscuring parts of the screen I need to _see_! Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Valentine, Thuvia Labs "Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich." Mark Valentine uses "We're kind of stupid that way." *munch* *munch* and endorses FreeBSD -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 10:34:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ctonet.it (mail.ctonet.it [212.110.160.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE18037B401 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:34:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olgeni@uli.it) Received: from olgeni.olgeni (ppp-199.dial5.ctonet.it [212.110.180.199]) by mail.ctonet.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A936121CD; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:34:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (bogus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by olgeni.olgeni (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5AHZOJ94521; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:35:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olgeni@uli.it) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:35:24 +0200 (CEST) From: Jimmy Olgeni X-X-Sender: To: Arcady Genkin Cc: Chip , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Cats and computers (was: My cat crashed my BSD box) In-Reply-To: <87ofrwqsxl.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Message-ID: <20010610192809.O65448-100000@olgeni.olgeni> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 Jun 2001, Arcady Genkin wrote: > Yeah, cats like to find their uses for computer equipment. A friend Let me join the fun with my memorable "cat barfed on keyboard" error! Does it count as a denial of service attack? Hint: why do keyboards have all the return keys on the right? With some luck I managed to ssh my way out :) -- jimmy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 10:39:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5464437B405 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:39:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03151; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:39:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610113836.053a4350@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:39:34 -0600 To: Arcady Genkin , Chip From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Cats and computers (was: My cat crashed my BSD box) Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" In-Reply-To: <87ofrwqsxl.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> References: <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:02 AM 6/10/2001, Arcady Genkin wrote: >Yeah, cats like to find their uses for computer equipment. See http://www.ymmv.com/goodreads/catcomp.html --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 11:59:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A440537B408 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.166]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GEQ00KFIA2XJ0@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8419D17F3; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 11:58:32 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: MTA authentications In-reply-to: <200106101336.f5ADa1U61233@lists.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 09:36:00AM -0400 To: Dan Langille Message-id: <20010610115832.C833@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <20010610045013.B556@zippy.mybox.zip> <200106101336.f5ADa1U61233@lists.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 09:36:00AM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > Which appears to have worked... But when I tried to send a message > to the postmaster: Right. Your mta (sendmail) is attempting a TLS connection, and the target host requires a certificate (or something else that your end is lacking). Configure it to either a.) use a certificate or b.) not attempt TLS connections. Instead of helo, use ehlo and you'll see all the neat-o features that the target host supports. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 13:13: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF94637B40A for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:12:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A79572C009C; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:24:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3B23D5EC.D6D71474@wiegand.org> Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:17:48 -0700 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Cats and computers (was: My cat crashed my BSD box) References: <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010610113836.053a4350@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Shoot, I had no idea cats had such a fondness for computers, here I thought it was just my weird cat. She won't sit on my lap, though when I'm downstairs watching the Mariners win another ball game, she's right there on my lap, sleeping. At the desk though, she's either on the mouse pad that I am using, laying over the right side of the keyboard, or pacing back and forth in front of the monitor from one side of the desk to the other. She does occansionally sleep on the left side, like now, but that is a bit rare. She's a good cat though. That web site with the cats and computers stuff is great. -- Chip Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:02 AM 6/10/2001, Arcady Genkin wrote: > > >Yeah, cats like to find their uses for computer equipment. > > See http://www.ymmv.com/goodreads/catcomp.html > > --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 15:37:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A995537B401 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from si@chemicalterrorism.com) Received: from freebsd.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.207] helo=chemicalterrorism.com) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 159Dr9-000HmJ-0X; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:38:52 +0100 Received: from sycho (sycho.chemicalterrorism.com [192.168.0.2]) by chemicalterrorism.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EB2C5F444; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:37:35 +0100 (BST) From: "Si" To: Cc: Subject: RE: MTA authentications Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:37:34 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200106101336.f5ADa1U61233@lists.unixathome.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Dan Langille > Sent: 10 June 2001 14:36 > To: Alex Zepeda > Cc: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: MTA authentications > > > On 10 Jun 2001, at 4:50, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:43:44PM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > I also meant to say that it appears that this new "standard" is not > > > backwards compatible. > > > > It is very much so. SSL is implemented via smtps (and depreciated), and > > is essentially just SMTP being wrapped with SSL. TLS has been > integrated > > fully into SMTP (forgot the RFC here) via the STARTTLS (STLS in POP3) > > command. > > > > Thus your MTA seems to be coerced into attempting an TLS > connection (this > > is advertised w/ the EHLO response)... and it's being denied. Likely > > because of lack of certificate. If your MTA didn't support TLS at all, > > you {probably,should} see a different error message. [snip] To answer your original post, i agree, these admins should not expect all mta's out there to support their stuff and the fact that a user of their domain is not aware that subscribing to mailing lists will bounce suggests the admin has 'just done this'. IMHO it's lame and theres no need with tools such as rbl etc... Si. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 15:40:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE0F37B401 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5AMeSU70666; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:40:29 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106102240.f5AMeSU70666@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: "Si" Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:40:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: MTA authentications Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: In-reply-to: References: <200106101336.f5ADa1U61233@lists.unixathome.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 Jun 2001, at 23:37, Si wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Dan Langille > > Sent: 10 June 2001 14:36 > > To: Alex Zepeda > > Cc: chat@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: MTA authentications > > > > > > On 10 Jun 2001, at 4:50, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > > > On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:43:44PM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > > > I also meant to say that it appears that this new "standard" is not > > > > backwards compatible. > > > > > > It is very much so. SSL is implemented via smtps (and depreciated), and > > > is essentially just SMTP being wrapped with SSL. TLS has been > > integrated > > > fully into SMTP (forgot the RFC here) via the STARTTLS (STLS in POP3) > > > command. > > > > > > Thus your MTA seems to be coerced into attempting an TLS > > connection (this > > > is advertised w/ the EHLO response)... and it's being denied. Likely > > > because of lack of certificate. If your MTA didn't support TLS at all, > > > you {probably,should} see a different error message. > [snip] > > To answer your original post, i agree, these admins should not expect all > mta's out there to support their stuff and the fact that a user of their > domain is not aware that subscribing to mailing lists will bounce suggests > the admin has 'just done this'. > > IMHO it's lame and theres no need with tools such as rbl etc... Thanks. I'm getting conflicting answers between on-list and off-list. Some say my MTA is misconfigured and should not be attempting TLS without a certificate. Others say the receiving MTA is misconfigured and shouldn't be requiring my server to use TLS. I'm confused. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 19:49:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC12137B40B for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:49:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5B2nH617089; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:49:17 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:24:00 +0200 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:15 PM -0400 6/8/01, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > 8) Company fires core developers and hires web administrators to > update the project pages in preparation for the horde of opensource > programmers about to work for free. > 9) The development of the product slows down significantly and the > free workers that were expected end up being only testers. > 10) Project is forgotten. > 11) Project dies slowly (it was a project wasn't it?). Yup. The key thing that many companies seem to be forgetting is that with the "waterfall" or "waterfountain" development models, the initial development costs are relatively minimal, compared to the ongoing maintenance costs. The trick is to hang onto the core developers and have most of them continuing to focus on new development (and paying them the kind of commercial salaries it costs to get the quality development in a reasonable timeframe), and a small team that works as coordinators of the open source maintenance side. The company does what companies do well -- spend money doing initial development. It lets the community do what communities do well -- supporting existing products with a reduced cost by trading volunteer effort for money. This is the open source model that I believe actually works. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 19:49:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7412237B403 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:49:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5B2nJ617144; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:49:20 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15137.21094.35164.926545@guru.mired.org> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> <15137.18457.765347.530729@guru.mired.org> <3B214EC1.B979899D@pitt.edu> <15137.21094.35164.926545@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:25:43 +0200 To: Mike Meyer , "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:32 PM -0500 6/8/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > Since the MBAs who chose to fire the developers are watching their > company go down the drain, the people making the bad decision - to > fire the developers - are being punished. Naw. It doesn't matter how many companies they've trashed, the MBAs can always go somewhere else and get someone else to pay them the really big bucks to trash yet another company. They're inherently immune to the effects of their bad decisions. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 19:49:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2F837B405 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:49:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5B2nL617186; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:49:21 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200106101336.f5ADa1U61233@lists.unixathome.org> References: <200106100343.f5A3hjU53739@lists.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:43:44PM -0400 <200106101336.f5ADa1U61233@lists.unixathome.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:37:36 +0200 To: dan@langille.org, Alex Zepeda From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: MTA authentications Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:36 AM -0400 6/10/01, Dan Langille wrote: > Interesting. I just tried a manual message: > > [dan@lists:/etc/mail] $ telnet mail.thedatasource.net 25 > Trying 207.91.110.72... > Connected to mail.thedatasource.net. > Escape character is '^]'. > 220 thedatasource.net ESMTP CommuniGate Pro 3.2.4 > helo lists.unixathome.org > 250 thedatasource.net is pleased to meet you Right. You did "HELO" and not "EHLO", so you didn't see their extended greeting. It is: % telnet mail.thedatasource.net 25 Trying 207.91.110.72... Connected to mail.thedatasource.net. Escape character is '^]'. 220 thedatasource.net ESMTP CommuniGate Pro 3.2.4 ehlo me 250-thedatasource.net domain name should be qualified me 250-HELP 250-PIPELINING 250-ETRN 250-DSN 250-STARTTLS 250-SIZE 250-AUTH=LOGIN 250-AUTH LOGIN PLAIN CRAM-MD5 DIGEST-MD5 250 EHLO quit 221 thedatasource.net SMTP The Data Source Network Closing - All Your e-mail Are Belong To Us! Connection closed by foreign host. Note that they advertise STARTTLS compatibility. > Which appears to have worked... But when I tried to send a message > to the postmaster: It's hard to say. I know that Microsoft screwed up the implementation of SMTPAUTH in their Microsoft Exchange server, and it freaks out and is unable to send any mail at all, if the outbound mail relay it's talking to advertises SMTPAUTH on port 25. That's why you make sure that you instead advertise these sorts of things on port 587, the new "submission" port. However, it would not surprise me to find that CommuniGate screwed up STARTTLS, or that they don't have a valid certificate. For that matter, you might not have a valid certificate. In your case, I'd try modifying your sendmail configuration so as to not try to use STARTTLS even when it's advertised by the remote end, and see if that fixes the problem (alternatively, this may require rebuilding and reinstalling sendmail). If this works, then you could either leave your system this way, or get a certificate set up properly, and then go back to the previous sendmail configuration, and see if that works. If it does, then you're now more secure, and this should be an improvement. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 23:13:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp8.xs4all.nl (smtp8.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9731C37B401; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:13:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rene@xs4all.nl) Received: from xs4.xs4all.nl (xs4.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.45]) by smtp8.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05164; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:13:04 +0200 (CEST) From: rene@xs4all.nl Received: (from rene@localhost) by xs4.xs4all.nl (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA20713; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:13:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:13:04 +0200 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: kernel documentation Message-ID: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am really getting sick and tired of not understanding why stuff I try is failing; I want to know more about the OS' structure, from a birdview. I understand that "the design and implementation of the BSD4.4 kernel" is a good start (ISBN: 0-201-54979-4, Addison-Wesley Publishing) but would like to know if there is any other thing I can read... I'd also like to know if someone perhaps has this book digitized so I can copy it. I'm on a bit of a budget to be honest... so, lemme know; how did you guys learn? ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 10 23:17:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from evilfry.dyndns.org (dyn15ppp160.qala.com.sg [210.193.15.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBF837B403; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:17:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@evilfry.dyndns.org) Received: by evilfry.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id 321FA183CEE; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:17:47 +0800 (SGT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: James Lim Reply-To: evilfry@sg.freebsd.org To: rene@xs4all.nl, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kernel documentation Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:17:45 +0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> In-Reply-To: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01061114174503.39303@evilfry.dyndns.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I read, and read, and read and read. There are thousands=20 of HOWTOS, Documentations, and papers out on the net, a good place to=20 start is in the mailing list archives. www.bsdvault.net,=20 www.freebsddiary.org. Or, post a question here properly and we shall=20 see how we can help you. On the last episode Monday 11 June 2001 14:13, rene@xs4all.nl wrote: > I am really getting sick and tired of not understanding why stuff I > try is failing; I want to know more about the OS' structure, from a > birdview. > > I understand that "the design and implementation of the BSD4.4 > kernel" is a good start (ISBN: 0-201-54979-4, Addison-Wesley > Publishing) but would like to know if there is any other thing I > can read... > > I'd also like to know if someone perhaps has this book digitized so > I can copy it. I'm on a bit of a budget to be honest... > > so, lemme know; how did you guys learn? ;) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message --=20 Regards, James Lim http://sg.freebsd.org | http://www.bsd-geeks.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 0:11: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A605537B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:11:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5B7At604603; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:10:55 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> References: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:04:42 +0200 To: rene@xs4all.nl, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: kernel documentation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:13 AM +0200 6/11/01, rene@xs4all.nl wrote: > I understand that "the design and implementation of the BSD4.4 kernel" is > a good start (ISBN: 0-201-54979-4, Addison-Wesley Publishing) but would > like to know if there is any other thing I can read... > > I'd also like to know if someone perhaps has this book digitized so I can > copy it. I'm on a bit of a budget to be honest... I understand you may be on a bit of a budget, but what you're suggesting here is basically completely ripping off the book, and is blatant copyright violation. I would not be surprised to find that one or more of the authors of the book might be subscribed to this mailing list, and would probably be rather offended at your suggestion. I know that I'm working on just two chapters in an upcoming book, and I would be offended if someone suggested that they rip off that book. Unfortunately, while some publishers have started making their material available in digital form (e.g., the O'Reilly "CD Bookshelf" series, or the O'Reilly "Safari" online series), this is most certainly not true of most publishers. Anyway, there's really no substitute for doing. Read the various HOWTOs, the FAQs, the man pages, all the other documentation you can get your hands on, and then get your hands dirty by starting to muck around with the code on some machine you can find where you are able to do some experimentation. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 2: 6: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D3F8137B405 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 46893 invoked by uid 100); 11 Jun 2001 09:05:56 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15140.35316.140495.9735@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:05:56 -0500 To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article In-Reply-To: References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 5:15 PM -0400 6/8/01, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > The company does what companies do well -- spend money doing > initial development. It lets the community do what communities do > well -- supporting existing products with a reduced cost by trading > volunteer effort for money. > > This is the open source model that I believe actually works. While I agree that that model can work, your description is missing one important detail - where's the corporate income coming from after they open-source the product? Ars Digita and Digital Creations both followed this model, having open-sourced software they developed as consulting firms. Their income is still coming from consulting. Digital Creations seems to be doing just fine. Ars Digita was doing fine until it went through a hostile management takeover, after which the MBAs started firing the developers - leading to the company having problems. Do you have examples of companies that follow this basic model with a different income source? The other open source model that have evidence of a actually working is bundling open-sourced software with proprietary hardware. There's little or no money in the open-sourced software, but development and maintenance gets covered by the costs affiliated with the hardware. Tivo is doing this. It's not clear they are going to survive the arrival of MicroSoft as competition, but their basic model seems to be working fine. Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 2:26:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6EEB37B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5B9QAl39832; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , , Subject: RE: kernel documentation Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:26:10 -0700 Message-ID: <002201c0f258$8d400200$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of rene@xs4all.nl >Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:13 PM >To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: kernel documentation > > >I am really getting sick and tired of not understanding why stuff I try is >failing; I want to know more about the OS' structure, from a >birdview. > >I understand that "the design and implementation of the BSD4.4 kernel" is >a good start (ISBN: 0-201-54979-4, Addison-Wesley Publishing) but would >like to know if there is any other thing I can read... > >I'd also like to know if someone perhaps has this book digitized so I can >copy it. I'm on a bit of a budget to be honest... > Have you checked your local public library? There are also many "design and implementation of the BSD4.3 kernel" books floating around, going for used prices of 50% (or less) of the 4.4 one. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 3:35:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CDA437B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 03:35:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA09744; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:35:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: rene@xs4all.nl Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel documentation References: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Jun 2001 12:35:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org rene@xs4all.nl writes: > so, lemme know; how did you guys learn? ;) By reading (and tinkering with) source code. There's no substitute for hands-on experience. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 7:18:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134AE37B408 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:18:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5BEIQ400786; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:18:26 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15140.35316.140495.9735@guru.mired.org> References: <20010604200851.A65559@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010608140211.00ae4470@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010608153126.00f7d7e0@mail85.pair.com> <3B21407C.2B9E8D6D@pitt.edu> <15140.35316.140495.9735@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:17:31 +0200 To: Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD direction/Damonnews article Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:05 AM -0500 6/11/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > While I agree that that model can work, your description is missing > one important detail - where's the corporate income coming from after > they open-source the product? A primary source of income would be consulting, training, and telephone support. I would add a fourth source of income through the provision of commercial services related to the product in question. > Do you have examples of companies that follow this basic model with a > different income source? Sendmail is doing the first three, but Nominum is doing all four. I think that setting up as many additional sources of income, from as broad a community as possible, is vital to the future health of the company. > The other open source model that have evidence of a actually working > is bundling open-sourced software with proprietary hardware. There's > little or no money in the open-sourced software, but development and > maintenance gets covered by the costs affiliated with the > hardware. Tivo is doing this. It's not clear they are going to survive > the arrival of MicroSoft as competition, but their basic model seems > to be working fine. Problem is, TiVO is taking a loss on each box they sell, and then making it up on the service side (the lifetime subscriptions). As a customer, I don't want to continue to pay $19.95 for the rest of my life, so I'd be much happier taking the Philips DVR, whereby you buy the hardware outright (at a higher price), but then the channel information is made available at no cost. Also, a TiVO is useless outside the country where it is sold, because the telephone number that the box is programmed to dial is hard-coded. A Philips DVR can be used in any country, because it does not depend on being able to dial up a particular telephone number to get the necessary information. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 8:10:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A408D37B408 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:10:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 5FE5466B00E; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:03:08 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:03:08 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kernel documentation Message-ID: <20010611090308.A7217@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:04:42AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:04:42AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > Anyway, there's really no substitute for doing. Read the various > HOWTOs, the FAQs, the man pages, all the other documentation you can > get your hands on, and then get your hands dirty by starting to muck > around with the code on some machine you can find where you are able > to do some experimentation. How long did it take you to learn the internals?? How experienced in technical stuff were you when you started?? The reason I ask is that lately I have just become so frustrated with my "lack of progress". When I take into account that I got my first computer just over a year ago and that in that time I have learned freebsd, c, ruby, and a whole shitload of other stuff I feel a little bit better but grrr it seems like all I am doing is spinning my wheels and not going anywhere. *sigh*. I will learn it all eventually, maybe in seven or ten years. Sincerly, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 8:16:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.kirov.ru (proxy.kirov.ru [194.84.63.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC0D37B403 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vladsh@ezmail.ru) Received: (from root@localhost) by proxy.kirov.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f5BFGbx09979 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG.AVP; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:16:37 +0400 (MSD) Received: from gw.ms.kirov.ru (line95.ezmail.ru [172.16.248.95]) by proxy.kirov.ru (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5BFGaV09969 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:16:36 +0400 (MSD) Received: from mailhub.ms.kirov.ru (mailhub.ms.kirov.ru [192.168.100.150]) by gw.ms.kirov.ru (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA70301 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:13:20 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from vladsh@ezmail.ru) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:13:38 +0400 From: "Vladislav V. Shikhov" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.34a) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: "Vladislav V. Shikhov" Organization: MultiSoft X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8801.010611@ezmail.ru> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Slang Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, I know that my question seems not directly connected (even not at all) with FreeBSD, but... The point of my course work on stylistics is slang, so how can you define this term? And please, send a couple of slang words (in your opinion) for me. Best regards, Vladislav mailto:vladsh@ezmail.ru To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 9:23:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83E337B407 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5BGKi425513; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:20:48 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010611090308.A7217@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> <20010611090308.A7217@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:35:53 +0200 To: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: kernel documentation Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:03 AM -0600 6/11/01, Chris Moline wrote: > How long did it take you to learn the internals?? I haven't. I've never really had a FreeBSD box of my own that I could afford to muck around with, and had the time to muck around with trying to learn the internals. I'm getting towards the point where I hope to be able to soon set up an upgraded PowerMac 7200/90 where I could run NetBSD/PowerPC in either single or dual CPU configurations (swapping out the logic board for a 7300/7500/7600 model, then putting in XLR8 PowerPC G4 MPe cards) as my primary firewall/web proxy server, caching-only nameserver, etc... here in the basement of the house. With luck, we'll also be able to replace my wife's laptop with a much newer model, and then I might be able to take her old Compaq Armada 4100T and perform some upgrades on it, and then install FreeBSD and use it as an additional server in the house. Once I can do those sorts of things, then I might have a chance to get down-n-dirty into the internals of one kernel or the other. > How experienced >in technical > stuff were you when you started?? N/A. See above. > The reason I ask is that lately >I have just > become so frustrated with my "lack of progress". When I take into account > that I got my first computer just over a year ago and that in that >time I have > learned freebsd, c, ruby, and a whole shitload of other stuff I feel a little > bit better but grrr it seems like all I am doing is spinning my >wheels and not > going anywhere. *sigh*. I will learn it all eventually, maybe in seven or ten > years. Learning kernel internals is hard work. It took me five years at college to get to the point where I could do anything remotely resembling systems programming, and getting into kernel internals would be something that would have taken me even longer. That said, each person has their own learning pace, and you might be able to progress down this road a lot faster than I did. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 13:56:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA3E37B408 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b013.otenet.gr [195.167.121.141]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5BKuSc17903; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:56:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5BHLSZ01827; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:21:28 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:21:28 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brad Knowles Cc: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel documentation Message-ID: <20010611202128.B1762@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> <20010611090308.A7217@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:35:53PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:35:53PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Learning kernel internals is hard work. It took me five years at > college to get to the point where I could do anything remotely > resembling systems programming, and getting into kernel internals > would be something that would have taken me even longer. > > That said, each person has their own learning pace, and you might > be able to progress down this road a lot faster than I did. And there is fun in going down the road too, not only in the end. Therefore, one should not be impatient and strive for perfection from day zero. I am constantly amazed at how many things I've learned by just browsing through the kernel and userland sources under /usr/src, yet, after two years of working on a FreeBSD box of my own, I'm afraid I still have major problems understanding some of the more esoteric conversations on -current. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 13:59: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (gibraltar.globalstar.com [207.88.248.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39BF237B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crist.clark@globalstar.com) Received: from globalstar.com ([207.88.153.184]) by nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GESA9G00.DOJ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:58:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:58:53 -0700 From: "Crist Clark" Organization: Globalstar LP X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of BSD presented. One interesting off-hand remark I saw, "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with Linux and eventually move on the BSD." The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. -- Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 14:16:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD37F37B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:16:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA07260; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:16:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:16:40 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Message-ID: <20010611171640.A7213@blackhelicopters.org> References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com>; from crist.clark@globalstar.com on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:58:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Interestingly enough, the office where I work has AIX, Solaris, Linux, and BSD, plus Win32. I require the UNIX administrators to be able to work on any of them. While they each have their own specialty, they have to be able to do basic configuration on any of them (with the aid of the run books, of course). My most junior admin thought he was hot stuff when he got Linux on his laptop. Two months later he reinstalled it with FreeBSD, because it was "so much easier than running Linux." I've seen this many times before. When I joined Verio, we went from Linux to BSD and (after the initial shock) the techs were pretty happy. If people try both, they generally choose FreeBSD. Kinda nifty, eh? :) On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:58:53PM -0700, Crist Clark wrote: > I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed > an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, > > http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml > > Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... > Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of > BSD presented. > > One interesting off-hand remark I saw, > > "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the > spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many > computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with > Linux and eventually move on the BSD." > > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. > -- > Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer > crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. > (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 > > The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, > intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee > or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying > of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 14:22:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8237937B409; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:22:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA43DD; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:28:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3B25368F.7F442491@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:22:23 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Crist Clark wrote: > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). There shouldn't be much wondering about this. Linux is more popular than BSD. Someone new to Unix is naturally going to start with Linux. Everyone talks about it, you can find it easier on the store shelves, etc. Then once they learn the basics of Unix, some of them "progress" on to BSD. If BSD were more popular than Linux, then I suspect that you be seeing the reverse. Back when I started with freenix and PC unices, I had a Walnut Creek magazine. I saw the adverts for Slackware '96 and FreeBSD and 4.4BSD-Lite. At the time, the BSD's did not sound newbie friendly, particularly 4.4BSD-Lite, so I stayed away from them and tried Slackware. Hey, at least I didn't start with Redhat! David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 14:47:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D6B37B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:47:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f5BLlBj55968; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:47:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B253C5D.C7850D9@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:47:09 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. I myself started with "Work Group Solutions" and Slackware Linux distros, but a consultant was brought in at my company who installed 2.0.5 FreeBSD, threw everything but the kitchen sink on it (on a 486!), and then left it in my hands. I tossed the WGS and have never looked back. On our NM users group mailing list (NMLUG@swcp.com) our BSD users group got folded into the Linux group because the guy who had been holding the BSD candle discovered he had kids to be responsible for. The LUG group hardly budged to make room for us, but I note that most serious users and question answerers now are BSD folk. Some users try to keep a hand in both camps but they end up suffering because they never learn enough about either. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 14:50:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp014.mail.yahoo.com (smtp014.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 93F9E37B403 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:50:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jun 2001 21:50:24 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:54:48 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org . . . .|Hey, at least I didn't start with Redhat! Hey, I started with RedHat!... I started with Linux because I've never heard of FreeBSD. I started with RH 6.1, it was great, I did not run into any problems with install or anything [I read a lot, and knew the theory behind most everything.] The thing that I really hated about RedHat is that it tried to be too much like Microsoft. It had everything including the kitchen sink. After awhile I was beginning to notice that Linux was getting bloated, and had no organization at all. It was just to chaotic for me, if I ever needed anything, I had to get one part from here, another from here, and the third one from here --- way too chaotic IMHO for a desktop or a server. I later discovered FreeBSD and heard about the ports system, that to me was the greatest thing ever. [i've never used Debian]. FreeBSD was far less bloated, far more stable, and booted twice as fast. It was a project, which meant that there was one official source for it. If I needed something one source had it [ie -- make world :) --I love that ]. Plus FreeBSD has everything that linux had, does everything better that linux did. There is nothing that FreeBSD doesn't offer me that linux does. >There shouldn't be much wondering about this. Linux is more popular than >BSD. Someone new to Unix is naturally going to start with Linux. >Everyone talks about it, you can find it easier on the store shelves, >etc. Then once they learn the basics of Unix, some of them "progress" on >to BSD. If BSD were more popular than Linux, then I suspect that you be >seeing the reverse. I doubt it, I think most people [especially FreeBSD folks] don't care about the popularity contest. Well I think first of for FreeBSD to be popular it would have to be bloated [to support that $5 dollor NIC card that Bob wants to work, and then that $2 dollar no-name sound card Billy wants]. Now if FreeBSD does start to support all crap hardware and starts trying to please every Luser/ Corprate Luser out there, it will be more popular but it will suck as much as Linux does [_IM_HO - no flames]. It usually turns out if you are popular you are bloated, slow, and unstable. www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 16:48:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6597E37B403 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:48:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id C505466B00E; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:40:57 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:40:57 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kernel documentation Message-ID: <20010611174057.A7743@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> <20010611090308.A7217@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010611202128.B1762@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010611202128.B1762@hades.hell.gr>; from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:21:28PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:21:28PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > And there is fun in going down the road too, not only in the end. > Therefore, one should not be impatient and strive for perfection from > day zero. True. > > I am constantly amazed at how many things I've learned by just > browsing through the kernel and userland sources under /usr/src, yet, > after two years of working on a FreeBSD box of my own, I'm afraid I > still have major problems understanding some of the more esoteric > conversations on -current. Me too. For example I discovered awhile back a whole bunch of stuff about consoles. ANSI escape sequeneces, changing fonts, and screen sizes, how to change the login screen. I had lots of fun screwing around with that. I also had fun changing my sisters' consoles to big, blinking red ones. They still haven't forgiven me :) I don't expect to know everything all at once and I realize it takes a long time, not just to understand the internals btu to aquire the experience to be proficient in systems programming. If pressed I might say it takes ten years for a complete newbie to really truly be any good, maybe a few years for someone who has a lot of experience in systems programming. Having said that, I am still frustrated. There's so much I want to try/fix/play around with :) Probably just one of those funky times where nothing goes right. Sincerly, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 17:32:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E152237B401 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:32:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010612003243.HOAM9669.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:32:43 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010611201844.017ea038@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:31:26 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine In-Reply-To: <3B25368F.7F442491@acuson.com> References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My first exposure to FreeBSD was similar. I had a Walnut Creek magazine that had Slackware Linux and FreeBSD 2.0 on facing pages. The commentary suggested that both were more difficult that Windows, but that FreeBSD was really for more advanced users. Wanting to be in the latter group, I ordered FreeBSD. In an ironic twist, the CD took so long to get to me that I ended up buying Linux in a local store and installing it first. I still keep both around, running Red Hat Linux a little more than FreeBSD. I appreciate FreeBSD's consistency and way that you're forced to understand the system to use it optimally. The FreeBSD community is a great value-add too, even when we're bickering like teenage siblings. But the device detection and support is good for my esoteric hardware that isn't yet fully supported in FreeBSD. And I appreciate Red Hat's graphical configuration utilities too. They're nice for the times when I want to get something set up right now, without doing three days of research on figuring out how to do it. As a desktop user who occasionally sets up a classroom file server, either one is more than stable enough for my needs. But then again, so is Windows 2000. Yeah, I'm pretty easy that way. :-) --Chip Morton At 05:22 PM 6/11/2001, David Johnson wrote: >There shouldn't be much wondering about this. Linux is more popular than >BSD. Someone new to Unix is naturally going to start with Linux. >Everyone talks about it, you can find it easier on the store shelves, >etc. Then once they learn the basics of Unix, some of them "progress" on >to BSD. If BSD were more popular than Linux, then I suspect that you be >seeing the reverse. > >Back when I started with freenix and PC unices, I had a Walnut Creek >magazine. I saw the adverts for Slackware '96 and FreeBSD and >4.4BSD-Lite. At the time, the BSD's did not sound newbie friendly, >particularly 4.4BSD-Lite, so I stayed away from them and tried >Slackware. Hey, at least I didn't start with Redhat! > >David > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 19:25:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (reiters.org [64.40.73.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B4D37B40B; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from denny@reiters.org) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6202AD634; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:25:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:25:20 -0500 From: Dennis Reiter To: Don Wilde Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Message-ID: <20010611212520.A48457@reiters.org> References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> <3B253C5D.C7850D9@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: <3B253C5D.C7850D9@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:47:09PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting Don Wilde (Don@Silver-Lynx.com): > On our NM users group mailing list (NMLUG@swcp.com) our BSD users > group got folded into the Linux group because the guy who had been > holding the BSD candle discovered he had kids to be responsible for. The > LUG group hardly budged to make room for us, but I note that most > serious users and question answerers now are BSD folk. Some users try to > keep a hand in both camps but they end up suffering because they never > learn enough about either. Same here in Illinois. I helped start our LUG (http://www.lugga.org) even though I had always been a FreeBSD person. Almost two years later and nearly every person in the LUG has at least tried FreeBSD, if not transitioned to it from Linux. -- Denny Reiter | denny@reiters.org www.scapegoats.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 21: 7:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A59B37B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 51F5118D9; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492EC18D8; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:07:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine In-Reply-To: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every Count me on that list... :) But I also mostly dropped Linux because I couldn't ever get it to install.. mind you this was Kernel 0.99something. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 21:21:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F6337B405 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5C4KpU99016; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:20:52 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:20:50 +1200 (NZST) From: Dan Langille X-Sender: dan@lists.unixathome.org To: Brad Knowles Cc: Alex Zepeda , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MTA authentications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > However, it would not surprise me to find that CommuniGate > screwed up STARTTLS, or that they don't have a valid certificate. > For that matter, you might not have a valid certificate. I don't ever remember setting up a certificate. Where should I be looking? > In your case, I'd try modifying your sendmail configuration so as > to not try to use STARTTLS even when it's advertised by the remote > end, and see if that fixes the problem (alternatively, this may > require rebuilding and reinstalling sendmail). Hmmm, I think that's the option for me. Anyone know what I should be looking for? > If this works, then you could either leave your system this way, > or get a certificate set up properly, and then go back to the > previous sendmail configuration, and see if that works. If it does, > then you're now more secure, and this should be an improvement. Please explain to me how having a certificate will make me more secure. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 21:23: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts8.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4E037B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beholder@unios.dhs.org) Received: from unios.dhs.org ([207.61.217.66]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20010612042251.EXAV9224.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@unios.dhs.org>; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:22:51 -0400 Message-ID: <3B25983D.AB73280D@unios.dhs.org> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:19:09 -0400 From: Pat Wendorf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I really have nothing to add to this discussion other than a "Me too". I was a die hard Linux fan for many years, having started with Slackware (when it was brand new), moving eventually to Debian. About two years ago I was struggling with IPChains to get some internet sharing setup for my home Lan, and a guy in a Linux help channel (Debian help chan of all places!) told me to give FreeBSD a try. I installed it, messed with it for a bit... and never looked back. FreeBSD is my first choice for any server I have to setup and administrate (over 20 now :). Some random advocacy (good place to post I hope :) I administer and develop on a FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE server where I work, which is the primary production database/web app server (PHP + MySQL). It's a P3-667 Dell Optiplex GX110 with 256 megs of RAM, it handles over 680 lan users simultaneously and has a whopping 220 days of uptime as of today. That's over 5000 hours of continuos service. The development team has done some truly, truly, stupid things while developing yet somehow the OS never misses a beat, never crashes, never stops serving. Crist Clark wrote: > > I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed > an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, > > http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml > > Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... > Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of > BSD presented. > > One interesting off-hand remark I saw, > > "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the > spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many > computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with > Linux and eventually move on the BSD." > > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. > -- > Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer > crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. > (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 > > The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, > intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee > or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying > of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 21:30: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFBD37B405; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:29:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 4067C11; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DEB49A13; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:29:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Pat Wendorf Cc: Crist Clark , chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine In-Reply-To: <3B25983D.AB73280D@unios.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All these stories would make great articles for daemonnews. Anyone care to write their story up? Just send it to articles@daemonnews.org The more people you share the story with, the more likely they are to choose BSD. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Pat Wendorf wrote: > I really have nothing to add to this discussion other than a "Me too". > > I was a die hard Linux fan for many years, having started with Slackware > (when it was brand new), moving eventually to Debian. About two years > ago I was struggling with IPChains to get some internet sharing setup > for my home Lan, and a guy in a Linux help channel (Debian help chan of > all places!) told me to give FreeBSD a try. I installed it, messed with > it for a bit... and never looked back. FreeBSD is my first choice for > any server I have to setup and administrate (over 20 now :). > > Some random advocacy (good place to post I hope :) > > I administer and develop on a FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE server where I work, > which is the primary production database/web app server (PHP + MySQL). > It's a P3-667 Dell Optiplex GX110 with 256 megs of RAM, it handles over > 680 lan users simultaneously and has a whopping 220 days of uptime as of > today. That's over 5000 hours of continuos service. The development > team has done some truly, truly, stupid things while developing yet > somehow the OS never misses a beat, never crashes, never stops serving. > > > Crist Clark wrote: > > > > I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed > > an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, > > > > http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml > > > > Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... > > Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of > > BSD presented. > > > > One interesting off-hand remark I saw, > > > > "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the > > spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many > > computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with > > Linux and eventually move on the BSD." > > > > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. > > -- > > Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer > > crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. > > (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 > > > > The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, > > intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > > the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee > > or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are > > hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying > > of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > > e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 22:29:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36DB237B40A for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:29:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.101]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GES000BKXXEKW@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1749E17F3; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:29:37 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: MTA authentications In-reply-to: ; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:20:50PM +1200 To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010611222937.A2921@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:20:50PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > I don't ever remember setting up a certificate. Where should I be > looking? Well you'll need to generate one. Ususally it's a good idea to get the requisite info from a Certificate Agency (again VeriSign comes to mind, but there *are* others) otherwise you can generate that yourself. You then feed it to OpenSSL to generate something that your MTA will understand. Then you should tweak the m4 stuff for sendmail and regenerate your configuration files, etc. Me, I like postfix which tends to be much simpler. > Hmmm, I think that's the option for me. Anyone know what I should be > looking for? Check thru the m4 templates. > Please explain to me how having a certificate will make me more secure. With this host at least, it will allow you to use TLS to encrypt traffic between the two hosts. The obvious advantage is that your message can't be deciphered easily. This is more of an advantage if you're using some insecure method of SMTP authentication (PLAIN/LOGIN and/or NTLM, and to some extent CRAM-MD5 too). In general the certificate (when signed by a notable, and trustworthy CA) will allow the other end to verify who you are. Think of it as a public/private key pair. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 11 23:20:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E930137B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A771F60198; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:32:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3B25B5B1.55F78D7A@wiegand.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:24:49 -0700 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> <3B25983D.AB73280D@unios.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's a big Me To here also. I found FBSD at the local compusa store a couple years back when I was just a year old in Mandrake Linux. I saw The Complete FreeBSD on the shelf, read the box, thought it looked interesting. After checking out a few web sites, bought it and have never gone back. I now have 3 FBSD boxes here at home, and even got my boss, a NT guy in a NT network, to let me set up a FBSD box to do my web site development on. Now it also runs php and sendmail for outbound autoresponses for our e-commerce site. Now I am trying to get some in-house mailing lists working. And my boss, the NT guy, is all for it, and has asked me set up a machine for him to use at home. I love this stuff. -- Chip Pat Wendorf wrote: > I really have nothing to add to this discussion other than a "Me too". > > I was a die hard Linux fan for many years, having started with Slackware > (when it was brand new), moving eventually to Debian. About two years > ago I was struggling with IPChains to get some internet sharing setup > for my home Lan, and a guy in a Linux help channel (Debian help chan of > all places!) told me to give FreeBSD a try. I installed it, messed with > it for a bit... and never looked back. FreeBSD is my first choice for > any server I have to setup and administrate (over 20 now :). > > Some random advocacy (good place to post I hope :) > > I administer and develop on a FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE server where I work, > which is the primary production database/web app server (PHP + MySQL). > It's a P3-667 Dell Optiplex GX110 with 256 megs of RAM, it handles over > 680 lan users simultaneously and has a whopping 220 days of uptime as of > today. That's over 5000 hours of continuos service. The development > team has done some truly, truly, stupid things while developing yet > somehow the OS never misses a beat, never crashes, never stops serving. > > Crist Clark wrote: > > > > I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed > > an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, > > > > http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml > > > > Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... > > Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of > > BSD presented. > > > > One interesting off-hand remark I saw, > > > > "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the > > spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many > > computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with > > Linux and eventually move on the BSD." > > > > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. > > -- > > Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer > > crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. > > (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 > > > > The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, > > intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > > the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee > > or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are > > hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying > > of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > > e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 1:15:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nikts.nk.ukrtel.net (nikts.nk.ukrtel.net [195.5.9.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 612B037B408 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 01:15:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yura@nikts.nk.ukrtel.net) Received: (qmail 58832 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2001 08:01:40 -0000 Received: from abn88.nikts (HELO nikts.nk.ukrtel.net) (yura@10.11.5.88) by gate.nikts with SMTP; 12 Jun 2001 08:01:40 -0000 Message-ID: <3B25CC61.AB9D3210@nikts.nk.ukrtel.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:01:38 +0300 From: Lobanov X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [ru] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i586) X-Accept-Language: ru, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rene@xs4all.nl Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kernel documentation References: <20010611081304.E2079@xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org rene@xs4all.nl wrote: > I am really getting sick and tired of not understanding why stuff I try is > failing; I want to know more about the OS' structure, from a > birdview. > > I understand that "the design and implementation of the BSD4.4 kernel" is > a good start (ISBN: 0-201-54979-4, Addison-Wesley Publishing) but would > like to know if there is any other thing I can read... > > I'd also like to know if someone perhaps has this book digitized so I can > copy it. I'm on a bit of a budget to be honest... > > so, lemme know; how did you guys learn? ;) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message install doc distribution from FreeBSD 4.3 cd /usr/share/doc/en/books/design-44bsd Best regards, Lobanov. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 3: 5:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 110EA37B408 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5CA4g617107; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:04:42 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:02:58 +0200 To: Dan Langille From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: MTA authentications Cc: Alex Zepeda , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:20 PM +1200 6/12/01, Dan Langille wrote: > I don't ever remember setting up a certificate. Where should I be > looking? Then you probably don't have one. > Hmmm, I think that's the option for me. Anyone know what I should be > looking for? I haven't actually set up STARTTLS myself, so I'm not sure where the certificate should be stored. > Please explain to me how having a certificate will make me more secure. Because, with a proper certificate, all the e-mail you send to other correctly configured STARTTLS-enabled servers will now go over an encrypted link to that server, preventing anyone from sniffing any of the content once the STARTTLS negotiation has completed. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 4: 9:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ko.com (gatekeeper5.ko.com [205.160.52.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48ACF37B401; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:09:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from elineberry@na.ko.com) Received: by ko.com; id HAA07662; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(151.162.240.9) by gatekeeper5.ko.com via smap (V4.2) id xma007410; Tue, 12 Jun 01 07:08:26 -0400 Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Lineberry" Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:08:13 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on ATLG05/GTY/NA/TCCC(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 06/12/2001 07:08:26 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Me too. Actually, this slashdot article : http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/03/30/1649241.shtml convinced me to try FreeBSD. I bought an off the shelf package, had it running the next day (even X!) and haven't looked back since. - Ed > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every Count me on that list... :) But I also mostly dropped Linux because I couldn't ever get it to install.. mind you this was Kernel 0.99something. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 4:16:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from messiah.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A277637B401 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:16:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chopra@runbox.com) Received: (from chopra@localhost) by messiah.megadeb.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5CBIGJ03934 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:18:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chopra) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:17:01 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Message-ID: <20010612131701.B81029@messiah.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com>; from crist.clark@globalstar.com on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:58:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:58:53PM -0700, Crist Clark wrote: > > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. Personally, I moved from Red Hat -> Slackware -> Debian within a few months, stayed with Debian for about 6 months (found it quite tolerable and in general an excellent distro), and then found FreeBSD. 90% of the people I know that run FreeBSD have used Linux before, and the vast majority of those ran Debian before that, which I kind of find interesting. I only know one person that went from FreeBSD to Linux...he was kind of a weirdo anyway though :) -- -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 4:23:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BED37B401; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id ECD997565; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1C61D8E; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine In-Reply-To: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Crist Clark wrote: :The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural :progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice :a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and :now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people :who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder :how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every :person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot :and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. I chose FreeBSD over Linux simply because it was more like SunOS 4.1.x (which is what the Sun on my desk at work ran at the time). I really hated the question and answer script method of kernel building present in Linux, that was just totally alien. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 10:43:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBAA37B40A for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:43:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id B0E2C66B00E; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:36:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:36:06 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Message-ID: <20010612113606.A9193@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from elineberry@na.ko.com on Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 07:08:13AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 07:08:13AM -0400, Ed Lineberry wrote: > > Me too. > > Actually, this slashdot article : > http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/03/30/1649241.shtml convinced me to try > FreeBSD. I bought an off the shelf package, had it running the next day > (even X!) and haven't looked back since. > > > - Ed > > > > > > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > > Count me on that list... :) But I also mostly dropped Linux > because I couldn't ever get it to install.. mind you this was Kernel > 0.99something. :) > > Rick Might as well jump in too. I bought my first computer at the end of january last year. I started hearing all sorts of great things about Linux and how it never crashed etc and decided I didn't like windows and so would give it a try. I was browsing the net looking for a place to download it from and I ran across this quiz thingy - some magazine was doing an article on various oses. I took the quiz and it said bsd would be just perfect for me and now here I am. Hope to be useful to the project eventually :) Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 11:35:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3278C37B401 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:35:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26567 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:34:50 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The article at http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2772296,00.html subtly suggests that there must be something wrong with BSD's philosophy or licensing because GPLed software (in particular, Linux, KDE, etc.) is the focus of more and more prominent startups. (Needless to say, as someone who has a strong vested interest in Linux, he's not exactly unbiased.) It's probably worth setting him straight in in the TalkBack. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 11:38:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BB037B411 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:38:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from box024.labs.pitt.edu ("port 4637"@[130.49.141.35]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4OLFGALPG001I5R@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:38:22 EST Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:38:22 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine In-reply-to: <20010612113606.A9193@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Originator-info: login-id=pfg1; server=imap.pitt.edu To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <219257411.992356702@box024.labs.pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.3 (Win32) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org fwiw, When I started, Linux was not yet popular although it was well known. I was going to check it out, but I decided to do a serious search before ordering a CD from the US. I looked on the web and I found something like a FAQ with alternative OSs for the PC. Due to their history, the BSDs were much more attractive as a documentation source. NetBSD didn't have a CD distribution, FreeBSD had. We used freebsd 2.0.5R to replace an SCO box in the National University of Colombia. the box was named unalbsd.unal.edu.co (now dead), and we were surprised of the speed and on who easy it was to run Xfree86 and get applications ported. Even installation was so much easier that SCO. I think we were the first persons to install FreeBSD in Colombia (this was around 1996, maybe before) and I was the first Latinamerican to port something to FreeBSD. We got to a point where three sections of the University were running FreeBSD and non were running Linux. Eventually Linux and the FreeBSD boxes got wiped out. The next year most of the Linux boxes were reformatted with Windows NT. Wow, I just checked...it's incredible! 4 years after installing ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co is still running FreeBSD ! Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 12: 5:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13608.mail.yahoo.com (web13608.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA81A37B403 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:05:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010612190549.13455.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13608.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:05:49 PDT Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:05:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Silence of the To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2772296,00.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 12: 9:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B1537B407 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07578 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5CJB2K59182 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:11:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:03:14 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:34 PM -0600 6/12/01, Brett Glass wrote: >The article at > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2772296,00.html > >subtly suggests that there must be something wrong with BSD's philosophy >or licensing because GPLed software (in particular, Linux, KDE, etc.) is >the focus of more and more prominent startups. (Needless to say, as someone >who has a strong vested interest in Linux, he's not exactly unbiased.) It's >probably worth setting him straight in in the TalkBack. Actually, I think he raises an interesting point. IBM surely knows about BSD; why, then, are they spending $2B or so on Linux. Part of the issue could be that Linux has mindshare, but I'm not sure that's the whole of it. I wonder, in particular, whether IBM is concerned that going with the university-style license might allow M$ to "embrace and extend" their work. -r -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 12:15:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C8937B405 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27170; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:15:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612131035.045d5220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:12:54 -0600 To: Bzdik BSD , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Silence of the In-Reply-To: <20010612190549.13455.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:05 PM 6/12/2001, Bzdik BSD wrote: >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2772296,00.html Yep, I just posted a pointer to that. One thing which Evan fails to note, by the way, is that BSD advocacy is muzzled by organizations like ZDNet itself, which has hired two "Linux columnists" and no "BSD columnist." --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 12:18:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154F537B405 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27237; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:18:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612131552.045a6c90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:18:01 -0600 To: Rich Morin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:03 PM 6/12/2001, Rich Morin wrote: >Actually, I think he raises an interesting point. IBM surely knows about >BSD; why, then, are they spending $2B or so on Linux. Part of the issue >could be that Linux has mindshare, but I'm not sure that's the whole of >it. Anyone who has ever worked with, or in, an organization such as IBM knows that PR is everything. Especially at IBM -- a company which has been marketing-driven (sometimes to its own detriment) since Watson founded it. IBM does use BSD internally, but its Linux efforts get the hype merely because Linux seems trendy. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 12:29:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4185D37B403 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:29:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 159tqV-0004SJ-00; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:28:59 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:28:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > unbiased.) It's probably worth setting him straight in in the TalkBack. It appears the article is located in two places (other URL was posted to advocacy@freebsd.org earlier). But the talkbacks (feedback) appear to be different. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 13: 0:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E88C37B403 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:00:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27883; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:00:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612135801.0460c2a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:00:03 -0600 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:28 PM 6/12/2001, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: >It appears the article is located in two places (other URL was posted to >advocacy@freebsd.org earlier). But the talkbacks (feedback) appear to be >different. ZDNet does that. They allow any article to be "repurposed" by another one of their online publications. Where was the other instance of the article? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 13: 8: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E071037B407 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 159uS1-0004UX-00; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:07:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:07:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612135801.0460c2a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > >It appears the article is located in two places (other URL was posted to > >advocacy@freebsd.org earlier). But the talkbacks (feedback) appear to be > >different. > > ZDNet does that. They allow any article to be "repurposed" by another one > of their online publications. Where was the other instance of the article? http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0%2c5859%2c2772296%2c00.html http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/main/0%2c10228%2c2772296%2c00.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20010612/tc/is_bsd_getting_lost_amid_the_open_source_salvos__1.html Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 14: 5:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D3037B401 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id QAA117964144 Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:05:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25778; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:07:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:07:03 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Rich Morin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Message-ID: <20010612140703.B25664@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from rdm@cfcl.com on Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 12:03:14PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IBM, the company who lost control of one of the most successful hardware platforms of all time? aka the PC. IBM, the company who lost control of one of the most successful software platforms of all time? aka Windows. IBM, the company who shares a processor family with Apple? Will Linux enable IBM to make AIX 5L take the place of OS/2 as the industry's favorite punchline? What is the dollar value of being at the large end of a market defined by loss leaders? [RC] On Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 12:03:14PM -0700, Rich Morin wrote: > At 12:34 PM -0600 6/12/01, Brett Glass wrote: > >The article at > > > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2772296,00.html > > > >subtly suggests that there must be something wrong with BSD's philosophy > >or licensing because GPLed software (in particular, Linux, KDE, etc.) is > >the focus of more and more prominent startups. (Needless to say, as someone > >who has a strong vested interest in Linux, he's not exactly unbiased.) It's > >probably worth setting him straight in in the TalkBack. > > Actually, I think he raises an interesting point. IBM surely knows about > BSD; why, then, are they spending $2B or so on Linux. Part of the issue > could be that Linux has mindshare, but I'm not sure that's the whole of > it. I wonder, in particular, whether IBM is concerned that going with the > university-style license might allow M$ to "embrace and extend" their work. > > -r > -- > email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 > http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. > http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser > http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 14:20:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379DE37B409 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:20:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from box013.labs.pitt.edu ("port 2072"@[130.49.141.24]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4OR34NTYE0018VK@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:20:14 EST Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:20:14 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-reply-to: <20010612140703.B25664@darkstar.gte.net> Originator-info: login-id=pfg1; server=imap.pitt.edu To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Rich Morin Message-id: <228969186.992366414@box013.labs.pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.3 (Win32) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:07 PM -0700 Robert Clark wrote:r > > IBM, the company who shares a processor family with Apple? > > Will Linux enable IBM to make AIX 5L take the place of OS/2 as > the industry's favorite punchline? > > What is the dollar value of being at the large end of a market > defined by loss leaders? > I dunno the answer for the last question, but let's say some volunteer ports Darwin to IBM's PPC boxes....he he...I guess that could run Aqua...and it would also mean a sudden displacement of both Linux and AIX 5L as a favorite OS for those nice boxes :). cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 15:22: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (usr.srcsys.org [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E488537B405 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:21:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 20415 invoked by uid 1000); 12 Jun 2001 22:18:43 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:18:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bretty, I disagree. There IS no point. If he believes a word of what he wrote he's in bigger trouble than anyone could turn back around. Welcome to GNU/FUD 1.0. There really are better places you can target youyr energies than by feeding these trolls. Hell, it's _ZDnet_ what do you expect. On a related note, did you ever get any financial records for FSF? I tried a few times with nicely-worded emails to no avail. In fact, any questions I sent them were promptly ignored. -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, & xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d-- s+:++ a--- C+++ UB++++ P+++ L- E---- W++ N+ o-- K- w++ O M+ V PS+ PE- Y+ PGP++ t++ 5-- X+ R tv- b++ DI+ D--- G e* h! r% z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > The article at > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2772296,00.html > > subtly suggests that there must be something wrong with BSD's philosophy > or licensing because GPLed software (in particular, Linux, KDE, etc.) is > the focus of more and more prominent startups. (Needless to say, as > someone who has a strong vested interest in Linux, he's not exactly > unbiased.) It's probably worth setting him straight in in the TalkBack. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 15:52:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from conn.mc.mpls.visi.com (conn.mc.mpls.visi.com [208.42.156.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034E637B401 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patm@visi.com) Received: from isis.visi.com (isis.visi.com [209.98.98.8]) by conn.mc.mpls.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F208110 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:14:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (patm@localhost) by isis.visi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03606 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:52:36 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: isis.visi.com: patm owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:52:36 -0500 (CDT) From: "Patrick J. McNamee" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612131552.045a6c90@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's worth noting that IBM is also putting resources into Apache, which uses a BSD-style license. patm On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > Anyone who has ever worked with, or in, an organization such as IBM knows > that PR is everything. Especially at IBM -- a company which has been > marketing-driven (sometimes to its own detriment) since Watson founded > it. > > IBM does use BSD internally, but its Linux efforts get the hype merely > because Linux seems trendy. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 15:54:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CABB37B401 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00248; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:54:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612164541.00c43ad0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:54:05 -0600 To: "Joseph A. Mallett" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:18 PM 6/12/2001, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: >Bretty, I disagree. There IS no point. If he believes a word of what he >wrote he's in bigger trouble than anyone could turn back around. Welcome >to GNU/FUD 1.0. Sadly, it appears that he DOES believe what he wrote. He just sent me an e-mail in which he claimed that BSDi had failed (when in fact it was the subject of an acquisition that was quite lucrative for its owners) and that "the supposedly "business hostile" GPL is attracting all kinds and sizes of companies who have done their legal and business-model homework." (Never mind that they're pretty much all going under, as Eazel has.) He also cannot so much as fathom the notion that the GPL might be unethical -- despite the explicit statements of Richard Stallman, the author of the GPL, that it was intended to hurt programmers and to "punish" small software developers (in particular, the spinoffs from the MIT AI Lab). Evan's e-mail address is "evan@starnix.com". >There really are better places you can target youyr >energies than by feeding these trolls. Hell, it's _ZDnet_ what do you >expect. It's a pretty big organization. Perhaps, now that they have at least two Linux columnists, we can get them to carry one BSD columnist. >On a related note, did you ever get any financial records for FSF? I tried >a few times with nicely-worded emails to no avail. In fact, any questions >I sent them were promptly ignored. Legally, they have to let you see their Form 990. But you may have to walk into their office in Cambridge to do so. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 16:38: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1CA37B407; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:38:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA19369; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:37:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Kevin Way Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: import NetBSD rc system References: <20010611205158.J23562@bohr.physics.purdue.edu> <200106120305.f5C35Ri37415@earth.backplane.com> <20010611233420.I26841@csh.rit.edu> <20010611212528U.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010612115326.A83911@bean.overtone.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Jun 2001 01:37:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010612115326.A83911@bean.overtone.org> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin Way writes: > I just ordered a spare machine a few days ago. I'll install > -CURRENT on it, and start the integration. I've been > needing something to keep myself out of trouble. That's our new slogan: "FreeBSD - keeping kids off the street" DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 18:20:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13606.mail.yahoo.com (web13606.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9350737B407 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010613012007.84416.qmail@web13606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13606.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:20:07 PDT Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:20:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Silence of the To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612131035.045d5220@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Was it Linux Communists? ;-) sorry for the redundant post --- Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:05 PM 6/12/2001, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2772296,00.html > > Yep, I just posted a pointer to that. One thing which Evan fails to > note, > by the way, is that BSD advocacy is muzzled by organizations like > ZDNet > itself, which has hired two "Linux columnists" and no "BSD > columnist." > > --Brett Glass > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 18:35:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FB537B403 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:35:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1149"@[136.142.23.3]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4P00QF3NK001BUG@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:35:38 EST Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:44:17 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B26C571.E7BC7CB8@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well....the two most popular Operating Systems of all times carry BSD code deep inside...in fact I wonder what real life OS doesn't: I still remember my surprise when I found the BSD games (including cookies) in AIX 4.1! Of course the penguin is green with envy! Pedro. "Patrick J. McNamee" wrote: > > It's worth noting that IBM is also putting resources into Apache, which > uses a BSD-style license. > > patm > > On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > Anyone who has ever worked with, or in, an organization such as IBM knows > > that PR is everything. Especially at IBM -- a company which has been > > marketing-driven (sometimes to its own detriment) since Watson founded > > it. > > > > IBM does use BSD internally, but its Linux efforts get the hype merely > > because Linux seems trendy. > > > > --Brett > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 19: 0:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2309937B407 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010613020019.28530.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:00:19 PDT Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:00:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B26C571.E7BC7CB8@pitt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > Well....the two most popular Operating Systems of all times carry BSD > code deep inside...in fact I wonder what real life OS doesn't: I > still > remember my surprise when I found the BSD games (including cookies) > in > AIX 4.1! > > Of course the penguin is green with envy! > > Pedro. And remember that Mama Penguin abandons Papa with the egg under his belly as soon as she's done with hatching. It's just a matter of time...we'll see all those revolutionaries becoming reactionaries, simply normal market forces at work...hippies -> yappies, etc. Idealismus as a substitution for a healthy sexual phantasy, nothing more. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 21:35:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C06D37B405 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:35:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03270; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:35:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612223420.044d15a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:34:58 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: <3B26C571.E7BC7CB8@pitt.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:44 PM 6/12/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Well....the two most popular Operating Systems of all times carry BSD >code deep inside...in fact I wonder what real life OS doesn't: I still >remember my surprise when I found the BSD games (including cookies) in >AIX 4.1! EVERY mainstream OS (and many non-mainstream ones) have BSD inside. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 12 23:11:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9059337B407 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from igiveup@ix.netcom.com) Received: from ix.netcom.com (user-2ini80k.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.32.20]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA08630; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 02:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B270409.8A635410@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:11:21 -0700 From: Ben Speirs X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Kevin Way , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: import NetBSD rc system References: <20010611205158.J23562@bohr.physics.purdue.edu> <200106120305.f5C35Ri37415@earth.backplane.com> <20010611233420.I26841@csh.rit.edu> <20010611212528U.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010612115326.A83911@bean.overtone.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Kevin Way writes: > > I just ordered a spare machine a few days ago. I'll install > > -CURRENT on it, and start the integration. I've been > > needing something to keep myself out of trouble. > > That's our new slogan: "FreeBSD - keeping kids off the street" > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message Keeping kids off RedHat! -- -Ben Speirs To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 1: 6: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524CA37B405 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:05:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh5.bfm.org [216.127.220.198]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:09:40 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010613030529.008eea40@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:05:29 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: <3B26C571.E7BC7CB8@pitt.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 21:44 12-06-2001 -0400, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Of course the penguin is green with envy! Argh! For a long time the penguin was the symbol of Opus, the BBS software of the late 1980's and early 1990's. How it ever became the symbol of Linux is beyond me! Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 1:13:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA8B37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5D8DN604469 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:13:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA57550 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:14:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:14:15 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Robert Clark Cc: Rich Morin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Message-ID: <20010613101415.A57154@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Clark , Rich Morin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> <20010612140703.B25664@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010612140703.B25664@darkstar.gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:07:03PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > IBM, the company who lost control of one of the most successful > hardware platforms of all time? aka the PC. They *deliberately* opened up the platform. Unlike Apple. And if they hadn't, Apple would have been the most popular personal computer in the world, or else it would have been someone else's open platform. It was only the sheer number of clone makers that allowed a clearly inferior IBM PC and MS-DOS to get the edge over Apple. They made the pie bigger. > IBM, the company who lost control of one of the most successful > software platforms of all time? aka Windows. They never had control over Windows. They had their version of DOS, and they had OS/2. > IBM, the company who shares a processor family with Apple? So? > Will Linux enable IBM to make AIX 5L take the place of OS/2 as > the industry's favorite punchline? Maybe, maybe not. But for sure commercial unix won't, nor will Bill Gates. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 1:26: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4A737B403 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5D8Pk606131 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:25:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA58023 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:26:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:26:38 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: "Joseph A. Mallett" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Message-ID: <20010613102638.C57154@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010612164541.00c43ad0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612164541.00c43ad0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:54:05PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jun 12, 2001 at 16:54:05: > the subject of an acquisition that was quite lucrative for its owners) > and that "the supposedly "business hostile" GPL is attracting all kinds > and sizes of companies who have done their legal and business-model homework." > (Never mind that they're pretty much all going under, as Eazel has.) I don't think he was talking about Eazel. More like Sun, HP, IBM. (Sun has been involved with GPL software, namely XEmacs, since long before linux became a buzzword.) > He also cannot so much as fathom the notion that the GPL might be > unethical -- despite the explicit statements of Richard Stallman, > the author of the GPL, that it was intended to hurt programmers and > to "punish" small software developers (in particular, the spinoffs > from the MIT AI Lab). You keep saying this, but never give a quote to corroborate it. You name his GNU Manifesto, but that doesn't say its intentions are anything like this. You talk about Steven Levy's book, but quite apart from the fact that Levy is not Stallman, I didn't get a negative impression of RMS from that book at all. In his afterword (1993, I think) he sounds quite admiring of Stallman. > Evan's e-mail address is "evan@starnix.com". Thanks. I just sent him the following: Dear Evan, There's a bit of discussion going on about your recent ZDNet article on the freebsd-chat mailing list; while I have nothing useful to say about the article, I just wanted to say that Brett Glass is not representative of the BSD community. (Nor am I, of course.) Some very different and much more balanced viewpoints on the GPL vs BSD issue can be found in the writings of Greg Lehey (a core member of FreeBSD) in past issues of Daemonnews (http://www.daemonnews.org): for instance, the one in this month's issue, http://www.daemonnews.org/200106/dadvocate.html Thanks Rahul Siddharthan. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 4:13: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kalaid.f2f.com.ua (kalaid.f2f.com.ua [62.149.0.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3078D37B63F; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:12:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.uic-in.net (root@[212.35.189.4]) by kalaid.f2f.com.ua (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5DBD9R01080; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:13:09 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from vega.vega.com (das0-l91.uic-in.net [212.35.189.218]) by mail.uic-in.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5D9lWo76351; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:47:33 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (big_brother.vega.com [192.168.1.1]) by vega.vega.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5D9YP105985; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:34:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <3B2733A0.1B5613E4@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:34:24 +0300 From: Maxim Sobolev Organization: Vega International Capital X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en,uk,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Zelkin Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Anton Berezin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Introduction References: <20010611214158.B87058@heechee.tobez.org> <24477.992289137@critter> <20010613111643.A8022@ark.cris.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexey Zelkin wrote: > hi, > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:52:17PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > >I am Ukrainian living in Copenhagen, Denmark. > > > > Hmm, that takes us to committer-ration of 5 committers/million > > citizens for Denmark :-) > > And us to rate about 1 committer per million citizens for Ukraine. Bah, do we have 50 committers here, or I missed 10x decrease of Ukrainian population? > Time to go and improvate state of Ukrainiain disapora at > FreeBSD committers land. ;-) > > PS: Welcome :) Seconded! -Maxim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 4:32:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from messiah.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C772E37B408 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:32:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chopra@runbox.com) Received: (from chopra@localhost) by messiah.megadeb.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5DBWsR91634 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:32:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chopra) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:31:39 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: odd empty mails from owner-* Message-ID: <20010613133139.C88705@messiah.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A few weeks ago, I started receiving about 20 empty mails a day from owner-freebsd-hackers/chat/stable (all three). This went away after a few days, until this morning, when I woke up to find roughly 340 empty mails from the various owner-freebsd senders. These are all 2Kb in size, and have no subject line, and no body. Does anyone have a clue about what's going on here? I just received another four of them while writing this short note. By the way, I receive my mail through a POP3 server - though I can't see what difference that should make. -- -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 4:39:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (whale.sunbay.crimea.ua [212.110.138.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760C637B403; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ru@whale.sunbay.crimea.ua) Received: (from ru@localhost) by whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f5DBdJE00181; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:39:19 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from ru) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:39:19 +0300 From: Ruslan Ermilov To: Maxim Sobolev Cc: Alexey Zelkin , Poul-Henning Kamp , Anton Berezin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Introduction Message-ID: <20010613143919.B95336@sunbay.com> References: <20010611214158.B87058@heechee.tobez.org> <24477.992289137@critter> <20010613111643.A8022@ark.cris.net> <3B2733A0.1B5613E4@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B2733A0.1B5613E4@FreeBSD.org>; from sobomax@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 12:34:24PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 12:34:24PM +0300, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > Alexey Zelkin wrote: > > > hi, > > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:52:17PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > > > >I am Ukrainian living in Copenhagen, Denmark. > > > > > > Hmm, that takes us to committer-ration of 5 committers/million > > > citizens for Denmark :-) > > > > And us to rate about 1 committer per million citizens for Ukraine. > > Bah, do we have 50 committers here, or I missed 10x decrease of > Ukrainian population? > Not 10x, but the counter decreases for sure. :-( -- Ruslan Ermilov Oracle Developer/DBA, ru@sunbay.com Sunbay Software AG, ru@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer, +380.652.512.251 Simferopol, Ukraine http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve http://www.oracle.com Enabling The Information Age To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 7:16:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp014.mail.yahoo.com (smtp014.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6800337B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 2001 14:16:26 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:20:53 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: des@ofug.org, "chat@freebsd.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: import NetBSD rc system Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org . . . .|Kevin Way writes: . . . .|> I just ordered a spare machine a few days ago. I'll install . . . .|> -CURRENT on it, and start the integration. I've been . . . .|> needing something to keep myself out of trouble. . . . .| . . . .|That's our new slogan: "FreeBSD - keeping kids off the street" I think: FreeBSD - Keeping kids off LSD Sounds better :) www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 7:31:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sork.levonline.com (tistel.levonline.com [193.15.191.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B8F37B407 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from CTHULHU (t3o74p38.telia.com [62.20.225.38]) (authenticated) by sork.levonline.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f5DCxLa09923; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:59:21 +0200 From: "Fredrik Olausson" To: "Munish Chopra" , Subject: SV: odd empty mails from owner-* Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:59:59 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20010613133139.C88705@messiah.megadeb.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > A few weeks ago, I started receiving about 20 empty mails a day from > owner-freebsd-hackers/chat/stable (all three). This went away after a > few days, until this morning, when I woke up to find roughly 340 empty > mails from the various owner-freebsd senders. These are all 2Kb in size, > and have no subject line, and no body. > > Does anyone have a clue about what's going on here? I just received > another four of them while writing this short note. By the way, I > receive my mail through a POP3 server - though I can't see what > difference that should make. I had similar problems a while back when I received ~50 copies of a mail a friend of mine sent me. The problem in my case was an error in the mail server configuration at my ISP's, so check with yours. -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 7:34:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from columbus.cris.net (columbus.cris.net [212.110.128.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90FF37B407; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:34:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phantom@ark.cris.net) Received: from ark.cris.net (root@ns2.cris.net [212.110.128.68]) by columbus.cris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA67883; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:34:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from phantom@localhost) by ark.cris.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f5DEY3571770; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:34:03 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:34:03 +0300 From: Alexey Zelkin To: Maxim Sobolev Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Anton Berezin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Introduction Message-ID: <20010613173403.A70325@ark.cris.net> References: <20010611214158.B87058@heechee.tobez.org> <24477.992289137@critter> <20010613111643.A8022@ark.cris.net> <3B2733A0.1B5613E4@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3B2733A0.1B5613E4@FreeBSD.org>; from sobomax@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 12:34:24PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi, On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 12:34:24PM +0300, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > > > >I am Ukrainian living in Copenhagen, Denmark. > > > > > > Hmm, that takes us to committer-ration of 5 committers/million > > > citizens for Denmark :-) > > > > And us to rate about 1 committer per million citizens for Ukraine. > > Bah, do we have 50 committers here, or I missed 10x decrease of > Ukrainian population? Wow! Missed "10", sorry. But anyway proposed committer/population rate is way to go :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 8:40: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB88537B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:39:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA02461; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:39:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:39:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200106131539.LAA02461@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Peter Brezny" Cc: Subject: FW: FTP almost gone now? (was: Re: IPFW almost works now.) In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've redirected this discussion to -chat which is a more appropriate list now, since this really isn't FreeBSD-security material. < said: > I was under the impression that the http protocol is a much 'chattier' > protocol than ftp, and that regardless of them running on identical tcp > connections, FTP is much more efficient by nature of the Protocol. Not at all. Here is a minimal HTTP request (assuming you're GETting files; PUTting them is more involved): ------------------------------------ GET /foo/bar/baz HTTP/1.1 Host: the.name.of.the.remote.host Connection: close ------------------------------------ The second generation of fetch(1) (as opposed to the current, third-generation fetch, which I didn't write, or the original) actually added a good deal more information, some of which was dependent on command-line options, and still managed to fit the entire request into a single packet (which could be transmitted in the TCP SYN segment) for a theoretically-minimal three-round-trip connection. By contrast, the same transaction in the FTP protocol typically involves: [SYN] [SYN-ACK] [ACK] 200 USER foo 331 PASS bar 230 TYPE I 200 SIZE foo/bar/baz 213 MDTM foo/bar/baz 213 PORT 1,2,3,4,5,6 200 RETR foo/bar/baz 150 [at least three round trips for data connection] 226 QUIT 221 [+ FIN] [FIN-ACK] That's thirteen round-trips for what HTTP can do in three -- which is why timbl created HTTP in the first place (the penalty of taking a dozen round trips on a few KB of text was simply unreasonable). Because FTP uses two connections rather than one, it also has higher kernel resource requirements than HTTP in the common case of one-file-per-connection. -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 8:59:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcap.apk.net (madcap.apk.net [207.54.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2D837B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) X-IP-Test: 207.54.133.91 Received: from kleenex (sgk@kleenex.apk.net [207.54.133.91]) by madcap.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f5DFxcJ18259 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:59:38 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Message-ID: <94080000.992447978@kleenex> In-Reply-To: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Monday, June 11, 2001 13:58:53 -0700 Crist Clark wrote: > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every I used Linux, then BSD, then both, now Linux. I use Solaris and Mac OS X too. I'd probably still be using FreeBSD with this machine, but I was having spontaneous rebooting problems with an early 4.x Stable install and just decided to try Debian again. I like Debian too, and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference whether I use Debian or FreeBSD for my workstation. Both do what I need just fine. Lots of flavors, lots of things to like. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 10:17:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900AA37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:17:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5DHHQ684813 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:17:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA80799 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:18:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:18:18 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010613191818.E57154@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010613123855.K57154@lpt.ens.fr> <002901c0f3f8$ca0d92a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002901c0f3f8$ca0d92a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 04:05:43AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org moved to -chat Ted Mittelstaedt said on Jun 13, 2001 at 04:05:43: > >Ted Mittelstaedt said on Jun 13, 2001 at 03:35:36: > >> > >> Even the major automakers in the world recognize that they aren't > >> going to be able to cut into the market for something as ugly as a > >> "new bug" so they are leaving Volkswagen alone on that one. > > > >:) Is that a statement on MacOS X? > > > > I have but one word for you to consider: > > colors! ;) > > Seriously, it's more of a statement that when the going gets different, the > different get ugly, and the uglier the better. Have you been in any modern > art galleries lately? People pay a lot of money for those dropcloths I > mean paintings, the gallery owners have quite a profitable racket I mean > business going there. Pretty smart I'd say, fleecing I mean selling to those > that flaunt their 'individuality' While the Mac isn't as expensive as a > car, > or a ugly statue, there's echos of the same physological trickery going on > there. Well, linux users get accused of wanting to be different, and linux users in turn accuse converts to BSD of wanting to be different (I get accused of that plenty, linux is very widespread in the physics community). I think there's an element of truth: there are people who like being different, but they aren't swayed by marketing tactics. They're as likely to buy a cheap ugly statue as an expensive ugly statue (or perhaps more likely). The people who buy the expensive stuff may be swayed by the desire of "being different", but often not, because the difference is just the price -- and in fact the quality too may be genuinely better. The more expensive Bordeaux wines tend to have a better flavour than the cheaper ones, while being qualitatively the same thing, but the sort of people you're talking about would probably buy them just because of the price, and to appear "discerning" to the rest of the world. Also, I think many people do actually like the looks of the VW bug (I liked the old one, and I'm beginning to like the new one too) and the majority surely like the looks of the Mac, including the new aqua stuff (look at the number of knockoffs on themes.org). So I think most Mac users simply find the Mac better looking and easier to use than Windows -- they don't just want to be "different" (though no doubt Jobs wants the Mac to be different). Microsoft isn't abandoning that market any time soon, they want whatever converts from Mac they can get. And if you think VW has no competition in ugliness of small cars -- check out http://www.smart.com (a Daimler-Chrysler company) These monstrosities are plentiful on Paris roads, and expensive, and I can't understand it. -Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 11:22:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp011.mail.yahoo.com (smtp011.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 613D237B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 2001 18:21:55 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:26:23 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: johnp@lodgenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Forwarded to -chat, as I'm interested in what people think about this also. -advocacy next ? On 06/13/2001 12:14:42 PM, John Prince is quoted as saying: . . . .|Hello All. . . . .|Not wanting to start a flame war, has any received and or reviewed the . . . .|latest (July 2001) Sysadmin article titled: . . . .|"Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications?" . . . .| . . . .|View article at: http://www.sysadminmag.com/articles/2001/0107/0107a/0107a.htm . . . .| . . . .|I am not sure I believe the results printed. . . . .| . . . .|Comments? . . . .|maybe move to freebsd-chat? . . . .| . . . .|--john . . . .| . . . .| . . . .| . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 11:39:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [64.124.90.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3051637B403; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (xwin.daemontech.net [208.135.51.161]) by krell.webweaver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A01620F04; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:38:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Hodge Podge To: announce@bafug.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: June BABUG meeting in Foster City --- Featuring a talk by 3Ware Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- BABUG -- (Bay Area BSD Users Group) June 2001 Meeting The Central Bay Area chapter of the Bay Area BSD Users Group (BABUG) will be holding its monthly meeting on Thursday, June 14th. This month's meeting will be held at Whistle's corp. office in Foster City. The meeting will Open at 7:30 pm. Our Speaker(s) will begin at 8:00 PM. Agenda : -- It looks like a full house of speakers boys and girls, so please try to be on time as we want to make sure everyone has plenty of time. ==> Our main speakers will be from 3Ware, Makers of some really great ID E RAID cards. I have built quite a few servers with them and I may never go back to SCSI for anything less than really really stressed servers again. With Built in FreeBSD drivers, A web based interface and emailed trouble notifications, it really is a great way to go. These baby's are fast too! ==> Doug Ambrisko "may" be doing a demo of his Cisco/Aironet "monitor" code. ==> Julian Elischer has been working on an 802.11 AP implemented on a box running FreeBSD; he's in town, and indicated a desire to exhibit his new toy. ==> Whistle is providing Internet access for folks who bring their own machines -- both wired (10/100 UTP) and wireless (802.11b; SSID is "bafug"). ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usual before meeting anouncements and job notices as well as the after demo mingling and talking about sundry topics. Contact : Please contact Nicole Harrington and/or David Wolfskill before 6pm June 14th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Location : This months meeting will be held at Whistle Communications. Whistle is located at 110 Marsh Dr. in Foster City. There is plenty parking in their lot. Time : The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 10:00 pm. Directions : By CalTrain : Exit at the downtown San Mateo station, and walk several miles east on Third Avenue to the Marsh Drive intersection. Alternatively, exit at the Bay Meadows station and take the SanTrans Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus to the Bridgepoint Shopping Center stop and walk 1/4 mile north on Mariner's Island Blvd. to Third Avenue, turning right one block to Marsh Drive. By SamTrans : The Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus line's Bridgepoint Shopping Center terminus is a few blocks from Whistle Communications. By Car : From the South Bay and Peninsula : Take 101 North towards San Francisco, From US-101 northbound, take CA-92 eastbound a mile to the Foster City Blvd., turning left (east) at the end of the ramp onto Metro Center Blvd. Go about a block and turn left (north-east) onto Foster City Blvd. Go about five blocks to the street's end, turning left (north) onto Third Avenue. Go about a block to turn left (west) at the first traffic light, onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. From the East Bay : From CA-92/Hayward, cross the San Mateo Bridge and take the first exit Foster City Blvd., curving right at the end of the ramp to a left (north-east) turn onto Foster City Blvd. Then process as described above for US-101 northbound. From the North Bay and San Francisco : From US-101 southbound, exit eastbound onto Third Avenue proceeding several miles, past the Mariner's Island Blvd. intersection, to turn right (west) onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. WWW info : More info can be found at the following URLs Whistle Communications - http://www.whistle.com BAFUG - http://www.bafug.{org|com|net} ******* |\ __ /| (`\ ******* * * | o_o |__ ) ) * * * * // \\ * * * Nicole Harrington | AKA Hodge Podge * ----------------------(((---(((-------------------------------- nicole@unixgirl.com http://www.unixgirl.com/ webmistress@dangermouse.org http://www.dangermouse.org/ nicole@deviantimages.com http://www.deviantimages.com/ -- Powered By Coca-Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Why do doctors call what they do practice? -- -- The Best Place for Your Web Site - www.Kinkyhosting.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 11:53:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6256D37B405 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:53:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03917; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:53:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:53:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200106131853.OAA03917@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Crist Clark" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FW: FTP almost gone now? (was: Re: IPFW almost works now.) In-Reply-To: <3B27A478.85A21D3F@globalstar.com> References: <3B27A478.85A21D3F@globalstar.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org < said: > HTTP is stateless. FTP has state. /All/ of the information required to > do the transaction must go out with each individual HTTP request. In the case we have been discussing, there is no state other than authentication, and perhaps ``working directory''. -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 11:57:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.akalink.com (akalink.com [64.23.81.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E76837B408 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:57:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfortin@akalink.com) Received: (qmail 58677 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2001 18:54:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alink) (64.23.81.14) by akalink.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 2001 18:54:45 -0000 Message-ID: <00e901c0f43a$9aced2a0$13a86395@alink> From: "Jonathan Fortin" To: References: Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:56:49 -0400 Organization: Akalink Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is an example of a biased OS comparison chart. "FreeBSD gave us resource-shortage warnings and failed to run when loaded with more than 2500 connections" It's called increasing NMBCLUSTERS, and kern.ipc.maxsockbuf=1048576, and increasing tcp recvspace and sendspace to 32768 also helps. "6x faster than FreeBSD", rigghtt, was SoftUPDATES, DMA enabled, vfs.vmiodirenable=1 enabled? It is a joke, My freebsd system can do more then 10,000 files in 200 secds, In fact, it can do it under 30 seconds. This is a lame attempt of a Linux kiddie with lame admining skills and fairly good programming skills to compare systems. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 2:26 PM Subject: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? > Forwarded to -chat, as I'm interested in what people think about this also. > -advocacy next ? > > On 06/13/2001 12:14:42 PM, John Prince is quoted as saying: > > > . . . .|Hello All. > . . . .|Not wanting to start a flame war, has any received and or reviewed the > . . . .|latest (July 2001) Sysadmin article titled: > . . . .|"Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications?" > . . . .| > . . . .|View article at: > > http://www.sysadminmag.com/articles/2001/0107/0107a/0107a.htm > > . . . .| > . . . .|I am not sure I believe the results printed. > . . . .| > . . . .|Comments? > . . . .|maybe move to freebsd-chat? > . . . .| > . . . .|--john > . . . .| > . . . .| > . . . .| > . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > > > www.nul.cjb.net > www.FreeBSD.org > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 11:58:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 465B537B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:58:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010613185817.93575.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:58:17 PDT Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:58:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Perens Replies (was Ivan Leybovich) To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Name: Bruce Perens Email: bruce@perens.com Location: Berkeley, CA, USA Occupation: Strategist for HP, and Open Source Evangelist BSD licensing is a failing business plan for the developer. It's only a good business plan for someone who wants to take that developer's work without paying for it. In contrast, HP is currently negotiating a commercial license with a GPL developer. Since the GPL doesn't allow integration of his work into the proprietary (non-Linux) product where we needed it, we had to go to him and negotiate another license. If he'd used the BSD license, we would not have needed to do that. By the way, I did ask Brian Behlendorf, but he was on vacation and could not respond in time. He said later that he would have signed. Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 12: 5:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314ED37B412 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:05:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA23681; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:05:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Garrett Wollman Cc: "Crist Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FW: FTP almost gone now? (was: Re: IPFW almost works now.) References: <3B27A478.85A21D3F@globalstar.com> <200106131853.OAA03917@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Jun 2001 21:05:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200106131853.OAA03917@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Garrett Wollman writes: > < said: > > HTTP is stateless. FTP has state. /All/ of the information required to > > do the transaction must go out with each individual HTTP request. > In the case we have been discussing, there is no state other than > authentication, and perhaps ``working directory''. As the author of the current incarnation of fetch(1), I'll back up Garrett here and confirm that HTTP is a much more network- and resource-friendly protocol than FTP. HTTP is perceived as heavier because HTTP servers are generally much more featureful (or bloated - it's all in the eye of the beholder) than FTP servers; they're also younger and more complex, and therefore more error-prone than most FTP servers; but none of that is to be blamed on the protocol itself. If you want to compare FTP and HTTP on an equal basis, send Apache packing and try thttpd instead (it's in the ports tree) - and even thttpd could easily be improved upon (amongst other issues, it doesn't use sendfile(2)). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 12:31:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F19837B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a142.otenet.gr [212.205.215.142]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5DJVXM22040; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:31:33 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5DJ2Hg70501; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:02:18 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:02:17 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: dochawk@psu.edu Cc: Duke Normandin <01031149@3web.net>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vi Message-ID: <20010613220217.A69527@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010613061843.A258155@mandy.rockingd.calgary.ab.ca> <200106131556.f5DFuIZ21662@fac13.ds.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200106131556.f5DFuIZ21662@fac13.ds.psu.edu>; from dochawk@psu.edu on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 11:56:18AM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [-- moved over to chat, this is getting kind of off topic in -questions --] On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 11:56:18AM -0400, dochawk@psu.edu wrote: > Duke dribbled, > > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 08:13:45AM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > > Well, it can be VIM, provided that you first issue > > > > :set traditional > > > Great! and a good tip to boot! I only wish that instead of those > > embroidered cloth badges, I could have those little metal pins so that i > > could decorated my hat with. ;) > > No problem; we'll run an extra batch. As a special feature, we'll > sharpen the point for poking those heretical emacs users . . . Do I get my life spared if I show you that my ~/.muttrc contains: #set editor="emacs --unibyte" Yes, yes, it's commented out. I'm not using it. I really ain't. Please do not kill me! Seriously now, both editors have their nice features, their special functionality that the other one may or may not lack. Knowing how to use both is a plus. Feeling comfortable, whatever the editor, is nice and then you can choose by your own free will to use the superior one (Emacs :P). -- % grep -i emacs ~/.cshrc setenv EDITOR "/usr/bin/env DISPLAY= emacs --unibyte" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 13: 4: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F4237B415 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from box014.labs.pitt.edu ("port 4145"@[130.49.141.25]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4Q2PLZ9KI001OJJ@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:03:44 EST Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:03:14 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Perens Replies (was Ivan Leybovich) In-reply-to: <20010613185817.93575.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Originator-info: login-id=pfg1; server=imap.pitt.edu To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Bzdik BSD Message-id: <310748704.992448194@box014.labs.pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.3 (Win32) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:58 AM -0700 Bzdik BSD wrote:r > Name: Bruce Perens ... > Occupation: Strategist for HP, and Open Source Evangelist > Oh so HP will GPL their calculator and printer firmware?? They must be pretty screwed up to hire an "evangelist". > BSD licensing is a failing business plan for the developer. It's only a > good business plan for someone who wants to take that developer's work > without paying for it. In contrast, HP is currently negotiating a > commercial license with a GPL developer. Since the GPL doesn't allow > integration of his work into the proprietary (non-Linux) product where > we needed it, we had to go to him and negotiate another license. If > he'd used the BSD license, we would not have needed to do that. > Seems like he just admitted that the GPL is not free software after all !!! Free as in FreeBSD I mean. > By the way, I did ask Brian Behlendorf, but he was on vacation and > could not respond in time. He said later that he would have signed. > Of course...OK I'll fall, whom is Brian Behlendorf??? Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 13:15: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA5637B40C for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:14:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11606; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:14:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613135038.047bf4d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:14:44 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: <3B26C571.E7BC7CB8@pitt.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:44 PM 6/12/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Of course the penguin is green with envy! I've never seen a green penguin, but I *have* seen a green daemon. See http://www.wasabisystems.com/products/products.htm --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 13:32:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACD637B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA24089; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:32:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Perens Replies (was Ivan Leybovich) References: <310748704.992448194@box014.labs.pitt.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Jun 2001 22:32:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: <310748704.992448194@box014.labs.pitt.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes: > Of course...OK I'll fall, whom is Brian Behlendorf??? Head honcho of the Apache Group. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 13:50:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6165A37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:50:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12001; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:48:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613143637.047be740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:48:17 -0600 To: Bzdik BSD , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Perens Replies (was Ivan Leybovich) Cc: bruce@perens.com In-Reply-To: <20010613185817.93575.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:58 PM 6/13/2001, Bzdik BSD wrote: >Name: Bruce Perens >Email: bruce@perens.com >Location: Berkeley, CA, USA >Occupation: Strategist for HP, and Open Source Evangelist > >BSD licensing is a failing business plan for the developer. It's only a >good business plan for someone who wants to take that developer's work >without paying for it. Unlike the GPL, which lets anyone use that developer's work without paying for it. Big diff.... Hey, waitamminnit. ;-) Oh, and because users can get the functionality for free, any developer who licenses the code from the original developer for use in a commercial product is paying money for something whose market value has been reduced to zero. Not a wise move. Also, remember that GPLed additions to the original code that are contributed by third parties are not covered by the license. So the licensee usually cannot get the most up-to-date code. In short, this is a failing business plan both for the original developer (who will rarely get takers... they have to be real suckers) and for the licensing developer (who has made a bad -- probably fatal -- business decision). >In contrast, HP is currently negotiating a >commercial license with a GPL developer. Since the GPL doesn't allow >integration of his work into the proprietary (non-Linux) product where >we needed it, we had to go to him and negotiate another license. Glad to see, Bruce, that you're advocating something that's very much against your own employer's best interests. Does Ms. Fiorina know that you're advocating something that both hurts HP and unnecessarily costs it money? > If >he'd used the BSD license, we would not have needed to do that. And HP would have saved money. That HP would hire you to work against its own best interests is proof that large companies often act foolishly. >By the way, I did ask Brian Behlendorf, but he was on vacation and >could not respond in time. He said later that he would have signed. How convenient. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 14: 5:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.solveinteractive.com [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B0E37B405 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:05:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: by tsunami.acidpit.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1B5761F20; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:04:02 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? Message-ID: <20010613170402.A58040@acidpit.org> References: <00e901c0f43a$9aced2a0$13a86395@alink> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00e901c0f43a$9aced2a0$13a86395@alink>; from jfortin@akalink.com on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 14:56:49 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 13, 2001, Jonathan Fortin wrote: > This is an example of a biased OS comparison chart. Agreed. Does anyone have a link to a current comparison that was done by someone with a bit of clue? I have a hard time buying any of those numbers myself, good or bad... -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 14:18:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F4B637B40B for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:18:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from box014.labs.pitt.edu ("port 4311"@[130.49.141.25]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4Q5AY4LM0001OJC@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:18:12 EST Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:18:12 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Perens Replies (was Ivan Leybovich) In-reply-to: Originator-info: login-id=pfg1; server=imap.pitt.edu To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Bzdik BSD Message-id: <315246715.992452692@box014.labs.pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.3 (Win32) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -On Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:32 PM +0200 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:r > "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes: >> Of course...OK I'll fall, whom is Brian Behlendorf??? > > Head honcho of the Apache Group. > Ah OK....point is no developer or core team member from the BSDs signed. I do agree that if the opensource movement is "divided" (I've never thought it was joined though), it's not because dur to BSD's fault.. What a waste of time. IMHO, the letter was irrelevant, it would've been interesting if the reply came from IBM, SGI, or ..[Ahem] HP...explaining how the GPL makes business sense for them! cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 14:21:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE2137B409 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:21:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12410; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:20:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613150727.045b07f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:20:15 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Cc: "Joseph A. Mallett" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010613102638.C57154@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612164541.00c43ad0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010612164541.00c43ad0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:26 AM 6/13/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> He also cannot so much as fathom the notion that the GPL might be >> unethical -- despite the explicit statements of Richard Stallman, >> the author of the GPL, that it was intended to hurt programmers and >> to "punish" small software developers (in particular, the spinoffs >> from the MIT AI Lab). > >You keep saying this, but never give a quote to corroborate it. I have many times. And you, perhaps because you have bought Stallman's deceitful and intentionally misleading rhetoric, have ignored this information and have furthermore pretended that you could not so much as use a search engine. See, among other places, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html : "So the MIT AI lab that I loved is gone. and after a couple of years of fighting against the people who did it to try to punish them for it I decided that I should dedicate my self to try to create a new community with that spirit." In short, like a vengeful "ex," he stalked his former colleagues and attempted to sabotage them and others like them. More below. >You >name his GNU Manifesto, but that doesn't say its intentions are >anything like this. Yes, it does. It specifically states that Stallman believes that decent pay for programmers should be "banned:" "For more than ten years, many of the world's best programmers worked at the Artificial Intelligence Lab for far less money than they could have had anywhere else. They got many kinds of non-monetary rewards: fame and appreciation, for example. And creativity is also fun, a reward in itself. Then most of them left when offered a chance to do the same interesting work for a lot of money. What the facts show is that people will program for reasons other than riches; but if given a chance to make a lot of money as well, they will come to expect and demand it. Low-paying organizations do poorly in competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the high-paying ones are banned." --Richard Stallman, The GNU Manifesto In the above passage, Richard characterizes the new companies as if they were Nirvana for his departing colleagues: all of the fun and interesting work of the AI Lab, but with decent pay, too! Angry and spiteful, he begrudged his colleagues their good fortune. He literally advocated "banning" higher pay for programmers than they could get in academia. He vowed revenge not only on Symbolics, but on all commercial ventures of its kind and on programmers who desired to make a better salary than they could at the Lab. > You talk about Steven Levy's book, but quite >apart from the fact that Levy is not Stallman, I didn't get a negative >impression of RMS from that book at all. In his afterword (1993, I >think) he sounds quite admiring of Stallman. You have your GPL blinders on. Levy saw and portrayed Stallman as a pathetic figure, and correctly noted that Stallman was extremely vengeful. Levy wrote: "This was RMS's opportunity for revenge.... Stallman had no illusions that his act would significantly improve the world at large. He had come to accept that the domain around the AI Lab had been permanently polluted. He was out to cause as much damage to the culprit as he could." Q.E.D. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 14:31:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A2637B40C for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b109.otenet.gr [195.167.121.237]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5DLVQM25480; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:31:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5DKQQQ70895; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:26:26 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:26:26 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jonathan Fortin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? Message-ID: <20010613232626.H69527@hades.hell.gr> References: <00e901c0f43a$9aced2a0$13a86395@alink> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00e901c0f43a$9aced2a0$13a86395@alink>; from jfortin@akalink.com on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 02:56:49PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 02:56:49PM -0400, Jonathan Fortin wrote: > "6x faster than FreeBSD", rigghtt, was SoftUPDATES, > DMA enabled, vfs.vmiodirenable=1 enabled? Well, speed is sometimes nice. And Linux with its asynchronous ext2 filesystem, and it's caching and all, might prove to be faster than FreeBSD's default installation. The problems with this kind of statements (Linux is faster in its default installation than BSD) are far too many to list in a mail message, but I can always try: o Speed is not the most important factor in all cases. Reliability of having synchronous writes in the filesystem might be more important in other cases. o I am not sure if you do have an option in linux to mount filesystems with synchronous writes. If there isn't such an option, then trd ying to prove that just because "we dont have this feature", means "this is evil and does not scale well" is plainly childish. At least with FreeBSD I can choose if the filesystem is going to be mounted synchronously, if soft-updates will be enabled, etc. etc. o "Where are the raw numbers?" This is usually a killer question, for such statements. No, no, no, simply stating "I've done my tests and have reached the conclusion that BSD is 4 times slower" means absolutely NOTHING to me. I am a man of numbers. Hit me with a huge pile o' them. Only then I might consider such statemets a bit more seriously. There you go. What was it he was talking about? Speed? :-) Does it matter anymore? -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 14:42:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from perens.com (perens.com [216.15.108.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2649637B403 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bruce@perens.com) Received: by perens.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EAE06F1CD; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:42:23 -0700 From: Bruce Perens To: Brett Glass Cc: Bzdik BSD , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Perens Replies (was Ivan Leybovich) Message-ID: <20010613144223.A17646@perens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613143637.047be740@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Brett, On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 02:48:17PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Oh, and because users can get the functionality for free, any developer > who licenses the code from the original developer for use in a commercial > product is paying money for something whose market value has been reduced > to zero. Not a wise move. What the developer is paying for is the privilege to not engage in sharing _their_ part of the product, which, I assume, has some value to them or they would not be developing it. I suppose you could say they are sharing in a different way - the $$ generally go into the Open Source product they are licensing. > Also, remember that GPLed additions to the original code that are > contributed by third parties are not covered by the license. So the > licensee usually cannot get the most up-to-date code. Yes, this is usually the case, but developers who want to have the option to dual-license handle contributions differently. See, for example, Reiser's filesystem work for the Linux kernel. > Does Ms. Fiorina know that you're advocating something that both hurts HP > and unnecessarily costs it money? Carly and the management team are very supportive of my Linux and Open Source activities. One reason that this is is easy for HP is because we make hardware, which has a very clear revenue return attached to it. Software is generally an enabler for hardware sales rather than a goal in itself. One of our software vendors has become so big that it thinks it can call the shots for _our_ company, and we'd rather have the freedom to chart our own course. We have also suffered because that vendor doesn't always deliver what they say they will, and we've made plans that have failed, costing us Billions, because of that. Thus, we pursue Linux enthusiasticaly. With free software, we get a lot more control over the software end. thus a lot more freedom to chart our own course. We have found the Linux folks to be easy to work with, and we feel that both sides are getting a good deal from that collaboration. We are happy to deal with BSD-licensed software. We find it's often to our own advantage to apply the GPL to our own work, and we are happy with the quid-pro-quo there is in working with other GPL developers. If you are attempting to make money solely by selling software, you'd find it a lot more difficult to pursue an Open Source business model than HP does. I can do things within HP that Red Hat can't afford, because I have a different way to pay for them. > How convenient [regarding having no BSD spokesperson on "stand together"] Remember that Larry and Guido signed, and their licensing philosophy is much closer to the BSD camp. Well, who do you think I should ask next time? The prerequisites are: Excellent name recognition. Experience and aptitude with press and public relations. They have to have put their flaming days behind them. Respect of the other people who are signing. The two who come to mind are Brian and Jordan, and I have not heard from Jordan in so long that I wonder if he's still active. I sincerely don't believe that Theo or you are ready for this sort of role. Thanks Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 16:12:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D9237B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f5DNCC833193 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:12:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nik Clayton To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: TIP: How to make FreeBSD a lot easier for the beginner Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:12:12 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <0106140012120L.37769@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Folks [ Originally I only sent this to -questions and -newbies. Several people thought it was worthwhile bringing -chat in on the action as well ] I'm in the process of compiling a new datafile for the fortune(6) program. However, instead of consisting of witty quotes, Murphy's Laws, and the like, this is going to be tips for FreeBSD that can appear when people log in. Things like % Want colour in your directory listings? Use "ls -G". "ls -F" is also useful, and they can be combined as "ls -FG". % I need your contributions. If you've got any tips and hints for FreeBSD, please send them to me. Try and keep them short and sweet, and please make sure that the subject starts "TIP" so that I can easily find them. Once I've got 30 or 40 I'll commit this to the tree so that people can start to benefit from it. The current list is at http://people.freebsd.org/~nik/freebsd.fortune Anything FreeBSD related is fair game. N - -- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsn80wACgkQk6gHZCw343UHXwCdFUpVl1WIX1S/3J8kX9vJUReu EGkAnAuAQqNKIuMEK9zn7FSh8GtpdGNf =cebs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 16:20:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7465537B403; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5DNKl415200; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:20:47 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0106140012120L.37769@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <0106140012120L.37769@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:20:40 +0200 To: Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: TIP: How to make FreeBSD a lot easier for the beginner Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:12 AM +0100 6/14/01, Nik Clayton wrote: > I'm in the process of compiling a new datafile for the fortune(6) program. > However, instead of consisting of witty quotes, Murphy's Laws, and the > like, this is going to be tips for FreeBSD that can appear when people log > in. Cool. Does this mean that we're going to get a new "-t" option to fortune(6)? How about also adding "-T" for longer tips, too? -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 16:21: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A17037B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:21:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5DNJ5413364; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:19:05 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010613232626.H69527@hades.hell.gr> References: <00e901c0f43a$9aced2a0$13a86395@alink> <20010613232626.H69527@hades.hell.gr> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:10:17 +0200 To: Giorgos Keramidas , Jonathan Fortin From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 PM +0300 6/13/01, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > o I am not sure if you do have an option in linux to mount > filesystems with synchronous writes. Yes, Linux does have this option. Moreover, you can use "chattr" to cause all writes to a particular directory (not necessarily a mount point or entire filesystem) to be synchronous. However, doing this absolutely bloody kills performance (at least, in the tests I've run), and therefore almost no one ever does it. > o "Where are the raw numbers?" > This is usually a killer question, for such statements. > No, no, no, simply stating "I've done my tests and have reached the > conclusion that BSD is 4 times slower" means absolutely NOTHING to > me. I am a man of numbers. Hit me with a huge pile o' them. > Only then I might consider such statemets a bit more seriously. Absolutely. Not only show me the numbers, but also show me the programs that were used to run the benchmarks. This was a significant part of my talk "Design and Implementation of Highly Scalable E-Mail Systems" that I gave at LISA 2000 (see ). Indeed, without giving us both the raw numbers and the details of the programs used for testing (and the other circumstances of the test), any numbers he could possibly generate are totally and absolutely worthless in the extreme. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 16:37:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A931437B403; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5DNb3v57494; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:37:03 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3B27F92E.669AB880@duth.gr> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:37:19 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TIP: How to make FreeBSD a lot easier for the beginner References: <0106140012120L.37769@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton wrote: > I'm in the process of compiling a new datafile for the fortune(6) program. > However, instead of consisting of witty quotes, Murphy's Laws, and the > like, this is going to be tips for FreeBSD that can appear when people log > in. Excellent idea[1]! Dare I suggest that this makes it into /usr/share/skel/dot.login? I'm sure that those of us that have no use for those tips won't be bothered by having to remove it[2]. --kkonstan [1] As long as we don't see an X11 version complete with an animated paperclip or whatnot. [2] I did a rough cost/benefits analysis and am quite confident that the decrease in traffic in -questions far outweights any whining on the other lists[3]. [3] OK, I lied, I just made this up. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 16:37:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4469937B401; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f5DNP2833335; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:25:02 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nik Clayton To: Brad Knowles , Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TIP: How to make FreeBSD a lot easier for the beginner Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:25:01 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <0106140012120L.37769@clan.nothing-going-on.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0106140025010M.37769@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 14 June 2001 12:20 am, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:12 AM +0100 6/14/01, Nik Clayton wrote: > > I'm in the process of compiling a new datafile for the fortune(6) > > program. However, instead of consisting of witty quotes, Murphy's Laws, > > and the like, this is going to be tips for FreeBSD that can appear when > > people log in. > > Cool. Does this mean that we're going to get a new "-t" option > to fortune(6)? How about also adding "-T" for longer tips, too? Does it need it? "/usr/games/fortune freebsd" does the trick nicely. Anyway, mail me tips, and I'll include 'em. N - -- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsn9k0ACgkQk6gHZCw343XclgCbBcqCVtHq4L5Fv5Y3X7OuXEm2 gYYAn1Q7WopptQ553Ot0KbbZNbNN18r0 =7Xj6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 16:47:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E8237B405 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:47:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14302; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:46:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613173546.00b48a50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:46:51 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Perens Replies (was Ivan Leybovich) Cc: Bzdik BSD In-Reply-To: <310748704.992448194@box014.labs.pitt.edu> References: <20010613185817.93575.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:03 PM 6/13/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Seems like he just admitted that the GPL is not free software after all !!! Free as in FreeBSD I mean. GPLed software is not free software because it cannot be freely reused for any purpose. It is, in fact, very much encumbered by an onerous license that's rife with legalese. Nor is GPLed software open source. Stallman says so explicitly on his Web site and elsewhere. Believe it or not, this is one point on which I actually agree with Stallman. The GPL is clearly not open source because it violates point #6 of the "Open Source Definition." It is expressly intended to discriminate against a field of endeavor: the creation of commercial software. It therefore does not qualify as an open source license. Unfortunately, several of the board members of the "Open Source Initiative" have strong vested interests in Linux companies or in projects that create GPLed software. So, even though they are not disinterested parties and should recuse themselves from any decision regarding the matter, they list the GPL as one of their "approved" licenses. This should change, since the GPL clearly does not meet the requirements. By listing the GPL as an "open source" license, they both demonstrate a conflict of interest and diminish their credibility -- especially with the businesses they claim to want to win over. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 19:10: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.akalink.com (akalink.com [64.23.81.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2CFF237B405 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:10:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfortin@akalink.com) Received: (qmail 80026 invoked from network); 14 Jun 2001 02:07:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alink) (64.23.81.14) by akalink.com with SMTP; 14 Jun 2001 02:07:39 -0000 Message-ID: <003a01c0f477$06ec2a00$08ac6395@alink> From: "Jonathan Fortin" To: References: <00e901c0f43a$9aced2a0$13a86395@alink> <20010613232626.H69527@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:09:20 -0400 Organization: Akalink Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok say if the Fastest network application is Linux for a second, then why would you want it anyway? say It is 10x faster then anything else, It will have 10x more downtime once script kiddies take control of such a security disaster. Irony is as follows, Linux is mounted async by default and their babbling about it's speed in email, but once linux crashes, you could say byebye mail queue! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Knowles" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" ; "Jonathan Fortin" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? > At 11:26 PM +0300 6/13/01, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > o I am not sure if you do have an option in linux to mount > > filesystems with synchronous writes. > > Yes, Linux does have this option. Moreover, you can use "chattr" > to cause all writes to a particular directory (not necessarily a > mount point or entire filesystem) to be synchronous. However, doing > this absolutely bloody kills performance (at least, in the tests I've > run), and therefore almost no one ever does it. > > > o "Where are the raw numbers?" > > This is usually a killer question, for such statements. > > No, no, no, simply stating "I've done my tests and have reached the > > conclusion that BSD is 4 times slower" means absolutely NOTHING to > > me. I am a man of numbers. Hit me with a huge pile o' them. > > Only then I might consider such statemets a bit more seriously. > > Absolutely. Not only show me the numbers, but also show me the > programs that were used to run the benchmarks. This was a > significant part of my talk "Design and Implementation of Highly > Scalable E-Mail Systems" that I gave at LISA 2000 (see > ). > > Indeed, without giving us both the raw numbers and the details of > the programs used for testing (and the other circumstances of the > test), any numbers he could possibly generate are totally and > absolutely worthless in the extreme. > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ > /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ > /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ > /* */ > /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ > /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ > > dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 19:27:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA6737B405 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8CAF618D9; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724FD18D8; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:27:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Indeed, without giving us both the raw numbers and the details of > the programs used for testing (and the other circumstances of the > test), any numbers he could possibly generate are totally and > absolutely worthless in the extreme. Unluckily, the damage is done.. unless somebody can get him to re-run the tests with more vaild controls. Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 21: 9:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16FC37B403 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [192.168.10.6]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA57637 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:09:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:12:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Honorable ratio of questions vs helping others? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Over the years I have got tons of help from the FreeBSD lists. I was thinking that I should try to help 1 to 3 people for every time I get help on the lists. How do others do it? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 21:46:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CE437B414 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1067"@[136.142.22.211]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4QKYZHNPI001OJJ@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:46:42 EST Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:55:28 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: TIP: How to make FreeBSD a lot easier for the beginner To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B2843C0.326044E4@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <0106140012120L.37769@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cool...can we have a clip too ??? ***sorry I couldn't help it *** Pedro. ps. I hope MS patented that clip...I hate it! Nik Clayton wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Folks > > [ Originally I only sent this to -questions and -newbies. Several people > thought it was worthwhile bringing -chat in on the action as well ] > > I'm in the process of compiling a new datafile for the fortune(6) program. > However, instead of consisting of witty quotes, Murphy's Laws, and the > like, this is going to be tips for FreeBSD that can appear when people log > in. > > Things like > > % > Want colour in your directory listings? Use "ls -G". "ls -F" is also > useful, and they can be combined as "ls -FG". > % > > I need your contributions. If you've got any tips and hints for FreeBSD, > please send them to me. Try and keep them short and sweet, and please make > sure that the subject starts "TIP" so that I can easily find them. > > Once I've got 30 or 40 I'll commit this to the tree so that people can > start to benefit from it. > > The current list is at > > http://people.freebsd.org/~nik/freebsd.fortune > > Anything FreeBSD related is fair game. > > N > - -- > FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ > FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ > > --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) > Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAjsn80wACgkQk6gHZCw343UHXwCdFUpVl1WIX1S/3J8kX9vJUReu > EGkAnAuAQqNKIuMEK9zn7FSh8GtpdGNf > =cebs > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 13 22:25: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE49E37B409 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:24:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1116"@[136.142.22.211]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4QMB8KJVA0016IQ@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:24:50 EST Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:33:35 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Perens Replies (was Ivan Leybovich) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B284CAF.F89EF725@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010613185817.93575.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010613173546.00b48a50@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 02:03 PM 6/13/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > >Seems like he just admitted that the GPL is not free software after all !!! Free as in FreeBSD I mean. > > GPLed software is not free software because it cannot be freely > reused for any purpose. It is, in fact, very much encumbered by > an onerous license that's rife with legalese. > I know Brett...I know. It's just that these opensource leaders had never admitted it so openly: with this BS he wrote, he just made moot all the critics he had made against the inoffensive advertisement clause in the previous BSD license. The truth is, no matter what the BSD license says, they only accept one "true" license for everything. Their problem is that no matter what definition the look up, the BSD license always classifies as free software....and for some reason that hurts. Just thinkin... FreeBSD is more than opensource...it's freesource. History does repeat itself... Stallman is somewhat like Marx, Perens seems somewhat like Lenin... draw your own conclusions (hides). Pedro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 0:58: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dell.dannyland.org (dell.dannyland.org [64.81.36.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F3337B405 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:58:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@toldme.com) Received: by dell.dannyland.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C21BD5BFA; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:58:15 -0700 From: dannyman To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Honorable ratio of questions vs helping others? Message-ID: <20010614005815.A8765@toldme.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from lists@natserv.com on Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:12:30AM -0400 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:12:30AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Over the years I have got tons of help from the FreeBSD lists. > I was thinking that I should try to help 1 to 3 people for every time I > get help on the lists. > > How do others do it? Well, you get tired of the daily grind so you switch over to your lists for some relaxation and fire off a few answers to avoid work and let your subconscious get some cycles. :) -danny -- http://dannyman.toldme.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 1:47:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7229F37B403 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:47:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5E8lA407135; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:47:10 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:24:08 +0200 To: Rick Hamell From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:27 PM -0700 6/13/01, Rick Hamell wrote: > Unluckily, the damage is done.. unless somebody can get him to > re-run the tests with more vaild controls. I've sent a letter to Amber Ankerholz (Editor-in-Chief of _SysAdmin_ magazine), and we'll see what kind of response I get. If other folks really care about this issue, they might want to do the same. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 2:40:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C95A37B405 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:40:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5E9eK683022 ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:40:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA12548 ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:41:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:41:11 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Message-ID: <20010614114111.F9578@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612164541.00c43ad0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010612164541.00c43ad0@localhost> <20010613102638.C57154@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010613150727.045b07f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613150727.045b07f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 03:20:15PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jun 13, 2001 at 15:20:15: > >You keep saying this, but never give a quote to corroborate it. > > I have many times. And you, perhaps because you have bought Stallman's > deceitful and intentionally misleading rhetoric, have ignored this > information and have furthermore pretended that you could not so much > as use a search engine. > > See, among other places, > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html : > > "So the MIT AI lab that I loved is gone. and after a couple of years of > fighting against the people who did it to try to punish them for it I > decided that I should dedicate my self to try to create a new community > with that spirit." > > In short, like a vengeful "ex," he stalked his former colleagues and > attempted to sabotage them and others like them. More below. OK. So he did that for 2 years (less, I think), and stopped. (And not for the reasons you describe -- ie not because they were making money. More on that below.) The GNU project is his attempt to "try to create a new community with that spirit". And it worked: I didn't know much of the spirit of the MIT hackers in the 1950s, but Levy's picture of it is quite close to that of the free software hackers today. > >You > >name his GNU Manifesto, but that doesn't say its intentions are > >anything like this. > > Yes, it does. It specifically states that Stallman believes that decent > pay for programmers should be "banned:" > > "For more than ten years, many of the world's best programmers worked at > the Artificial Intelligence Lab for far less money than they could have > had anywhere else. They got many kinds of non-monetary rewards: fame and > appreciation, for example. And creativity is also fun, a reward in itself. > > Then most of them left when offered a chance to do the same interesting > work for a lot of money. > > What the facts show is that people will program for reasons other than > riches; but if given a chance to make a lot of money as well, they will > come to expect and demand it. Low-paying organizations do poorly in > competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the > high-paying ones are banned." Yes. But if you read the whole thing, the context is not to ban high pay, but to ban commercial shrinkwrap-license software. By "high-paying organizations" he means the shrinkwrap ones; he has no problem if Red Hat pays well (of course, nothing like Red Hat existed at that time). Again, from your KTH link: It was possible to get rich by working at a private company. All that was necessary was to stop sharing their work with the rest of the world and destroy the MIT-AI lab, and this is what they did despite all the efforts I could make to prevent them. You probably need to understand that the spirit of sharing is common in academia, so it is not at all surprising that he found the idea of not sharing so offensive. Apart from which, in the case of software as much as in academia, there are real practical benefits to sharing. > higher pay for programmers than they could get in academia. He vowed revenge > not only on Symbolics, but on all commercial ventures of its kind and on > programmers who desired to make a better salary than they could at the Lab. He vowed vengeance, as you like to put it, on programmers who wrote software which could not be shared, could not be fixed by the user, put you at the mercy of the programmer or the company. > You have your GPL blinders on. Levy saw and portrayed Stallman as a > pathetic figure, and correctly noted that Stallman was extremely vengeful. > Levy wrote: > > "This was RMS's opportunity for revenge.... Stallman had no illusions > that his act would significantly improve the world at large. He had > come to accept that the domain around the AI Lab had been permanently > polluted. He was out to cause as much damage to the culprit as he could." Levy also says later that this did not go on long; he knew he couldn't keep it up so he started a new project, the GNU project. The "act" he refers to in the extract you quote was not the GNU project, but his duplication of Symbolics' efforts (all by himself) to help their competing company; but of course you won't make that clear, with your selective quotations. With the GNU project (which came later) he did, indeed, want to improve the world at large (or at least, he says so and Levy nowhere contradicts it). Levy's book, if you read the whole thing, makes it quite clear that Symbolics' crime was not hiring programmers, but making them keep their work secret instead of sharing it with people (like Greenblatt) without whom all these things would not have existed anyway. Yes, he was angry with them (that's human) and wanted to damage them, but not for the reasons you describe. The reason was their destroying the "hacker ethic" as Levy called it. If you read all your favourite documents in detail, it's clear that the GNU project is, indeed, opposed to hoarding of software. It is not opposed to paying programmers. It recognises, though, that in a world where all software is free, pay will be less (similarly, pay will be less in academia than in industrial research labs). Think of the benefits though: if the researchers who had discovered the high temperature superconductors had patented it, it would have scuttled pretty much all future research into it. Similarly consider the recent magnesium boride superconductor which looks like it will already have applications within 6 months of discovery (well, the compound was known earlier, but suppose it hadn't been.) Stallman thinks of software as basic science, which shouldn't be hoarded. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 4:18:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571D937B401 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 04:18:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27260; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:18:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: dannyman Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Honorable ratio of questions vs helping others? References: <20010614005815.A8765@toldme.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Jun 2001 13:18:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010614005815.A8765@toldme.com> Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org dannyman writes: > Well, you get tired of the daily grind so you switch over to your lists > for some relaxation and fire off a few answers to avoid work and let > your subconscious get some cycles. :) Yep, flaming newbies on -questions is a great way to vent steam ;) (just kidding, you can leggo my arm now) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 5:31:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7575037B40A for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 05:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [192.168.10.6]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA58763; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:31:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:34:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: To: dannyman Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Honorable ratio of questions vs helping others? In-Reply-To: <20010614005815.A8765@toldme.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, dannyman wrote: > On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:12:30AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > Over the years I have got tons of help from the FreeBSD lists. > > I was thinking that I should try to help 1 to 3 people for every time I > > get help on the lists. > > > > How do others do it? > > Well, you get tired of the daily grind so you switch over to your lists > for some relaxation and fire off a few answers to avoid work and let > your subconscious get some cycles. :) I don't know about relaxation. Just trying to keep up with questions, security and stable could be a part time job. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 7:39:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A03C337B405 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jun 2001 14:39:16 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:43:45 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: lists@natserv.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re:Honorable ratio of questions vs helping others? Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I only read these lists at work, as it gives me something to do when I'm slacking off so I look like I'm actually working but slacking. Also daily reading these lists helps you learn new and interesting things. [I'm subscribed to about 12 different lists, it's amazing the kinda stuff you can learn by just reading what people are talking about.] Also sometimes you reply, and then to your reply you get like 20 people saying oops...you fscked up, here is a better way to do it, [somethign along those lines]. I think mailing lists are just the best way to learn something. On 06/13/2001 10:12:30 PM, Francisco Reyes is quoted as saying: . . . .|Over the years I have got tons of help from the FreeBSD lists. . . . .|I was thinking that I should try to help 1 to 3 people for every time I . . . .|get help on the lists. . . . .| . . . .|How do others do it? . . . .| . . . .| . . . .| . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 7:45:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CDF137B407 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:45:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA28171; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:45:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Peter Cc: lists@natserv.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Honorable ratio of questions vs helping others? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Jun 2001 16:45:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter writes: > I think mailing lists are just the best way to learn something. Absolutely not. Mailing lists may provide useful clues, but the best way to learn something is, has always been and will always be to practice it. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 7:53:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1656F37B40B for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:53:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 92683 invoked by uid 100); 14 Jun 2001 14:53:23 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15144.53219.276059.119327@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:53:23 -0500 To: Peter Cc: lists@natserv.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re:Honorable ratio of questions vs helping others? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter types: > Also sometimes you reply, and then to your reply you get like > 20 people saying oops...you fscked up, here is a better way to do it, I've noticed that people seem a lot more likely to correct an incorrect answer than answer a question, even though they provide the same information. Which is why I sometimes provide an answer even when I'm not positive it'll work - it may prompt someone to provide the correct answer. In such cases, I always ask the person with the problem to post the results as well. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 7:58: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magellan.palisadesys.com (magellan.palisadesys.com [192.188.162.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E1137B407; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:57:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ghelmer@palisadesys.com) Received: from CAPELLA (capella.palisadesys.com [192.188.162.112]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by magellan.palisadesys.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5EEvvb05736 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128 bits) verified NO); Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:57:57 -0500 From: "Guy Helmer" To: "Peter Wemm" Cc: Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha gensetdefs.c src/sys/kern gensetdefs.pl Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:00:11 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-reply-to: <200106140128.f5E1SuP06040@freefall.freebsd.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Only a six shot clip??!! :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org > [mailto:owner-cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org]On Behalf Of Peter Wemm > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 8:29 PM > To: cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org; cvs-all@FreeBSD.org > Subject: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha gensetdefs.c src/sys/kern > gensetdefs.pl > > > peter 2001/06/13 18:28:56 PDT > > Removed files: > sys/alpha/alpha gensetdefs.c > sys/kern gensetdefs.pl > Log: > As per comments in sys/linker_set.h: > > BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! CLICK! CLICK! CLICK! CLICK! CLICK! > > BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! CLICK! CLICK! CLICK! CLICK! CLICK! > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 9:15:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B6437B40D; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA28569; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:15:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: wilko@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha gensetdefs.c src/sys/kern gensetdefs.pl References: <200106140128.f5E1SuP06040@freefall.freebsd.org> <20010614181036.A6607@freebie.xs4all.nl> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Jun 2001 18:15:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010614181036.A6607@freebie.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wilko Bulte writes: > On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:55:02PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Get a real gun: > Glock? Give the man a cookie! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 9:18:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FFA37B405; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5EGOrp06898; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:24:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:24:53 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: wilko@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha gensetdefs.c src/sys/kern gensetdefs.pl Message-ID: <20010614182453.B6871@freebie.xs4all.nl> Reply-To: wilko@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106140128.f5E1SuP06040@freefall.freebsd.org> <20010614181036.A6607@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:15:18PM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 8-) On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:15:18PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Wilko Bulte writes: > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:55:02PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Get a real gun: > > Glock? > > Give the man a cookie! > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org ---end of quoted text--- -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands email: wilko@FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 10:23: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from garbo.lodgenet.com (garbo.lodgenet.com [204.124.122.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D17437B407 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from johnp@lodgenet.com) Received: from milo.ct.lodgenet.com (milo.ct.lodgenet.com [10.0.122.42]) by garbo.lodgenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25069; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:22:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from milo.ct.lodgenet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by milo.ct.lodgenet.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5EHNSk49799; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:23:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from johnp@milo.ct.lodgenet.com) Message-Id: <200106141723.f5EHNSk49799@milo.ct.lodgenet.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:24:08 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:23:28 -0500 From: John Prince Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have done the same, and here is their reply.. ~~~~~snip~~~~~ >Thank you very much for taking the time to write to Sys Admin. >I have forwarded your comments to the authors of this particular >article, so they can address your concerns. > >Regards, > >Amber Ankerholz >Editor in Chief, Sys Admin magazine >Email: aankerholz@cmp.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --john Brad Knowles writes: > At 7:27 PM -0700 6/13/01, Rick Hamell wrote: > > > Unluckily, the damage is done.. unless somebody can get him to > > re-run the tests with more vaild controls. > > I've sent a letter to Amber Ankerholz > (Editor-in-Chief of _SysAdmin_ magazine), and we'll see what kind of > response I get. If other folks really care about this issue, they > might want to do the same. > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ > /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ > /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ > /* */ > /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ > /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ > > dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 14:34:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (cpe-66-1-147-119.ca.sprintbbd.net [66.1.147.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C4937B406 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:34:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: by sharmas.dhs.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 81E885E107; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:34:32 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Perens Replies (was Ivan Leybovich) Message-ID: <20010614143432.A14721@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613143637.047be740@localhost> <20010613144223.A17646@perens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <20010613144223.A17646@perens.com>; from bruce@perens.com on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 02:42:23PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 02:42:23PM -0700, Bruce Perens wrote: > Carly and the management team are very supportive of my Linux and Open > Source activities. One reason that this is is easy for HP is because > we make hardware, which has a very clear revenue return attached to > it. Software is generally an enabler for hardware sales rather than a > goal in itself. Bruce, I'd like to note that this distinction between hardware and software is blurring quite a bit recently. A lot of companies can make beige boxes and cheap $9.99 10/100 PCI Network cards. The real intellectual property that companies like HP have seems to be shifting towards their processor and system design [1]. Now, that design has some properties that are very similar to the software you're talking about. Namely, it costs a lot to produce, but very easy to replicate in Taiwan. Have you had a chance to talk with Carly about open sourcing these things ? I'd love to hear what she has to say about it. I used to have a lot of problems reconciling my closed source day job with writing software driven by the GNU philosophy. I wonder how you're managing some of these contradictions (between what HP does and what the author of GPL says). -Arun [1] HP also seems to have significant IP in software also, in HP-UX and the IA-64 compilers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 14:53:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DAB37B405 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:53:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5ELqj625133; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:52:46 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200106141723.f5EHNSk49799@milo.ct.lodgenet.com> References: <200106141723.f5EHNSk49799@milo.ct.lodgenet.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:17:16 +0200 To: John Prince From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? Cc: Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:23 PM -0500 6/14/01, John Prince wrote: > I have done the same, and here is their reply.. Yeah, I basically got the same. Still, the more people that write in about this issue and make their feelings known, the better. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 15:36:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout04.sul.t-online.de (mailout04.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9528637B40A for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ulf.Kister@t-online.de) Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.de by mailout04.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 15Afj2-0008P6-00; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:36:28 +0200 Received: from harry.my.net (320020256018-0001@[217.2.83.29]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 15Afin-0j2AbYC; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:36:13 +0200 Received: (from kister@localhost) by harry.my.net (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f5EMaOW17288; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:36:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from kister) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cco: Chip Subject: Re: My cat crashed my BSD box References: <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> From: Ulf.Kister@t-online.de (Ulf Kister) Date: 15 Jun 2001 00:36:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3B206624.132557A6@wiegand.org> Message-ID: <87u21isn87.fsf@harry.my.net> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Sender: 320020256018-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org here is another one: When I was brand new to FreeBSD (back on 3.1 STABLE) and very happy to have an OS which gave me the reliability I needed to simply *work* with it my 2 year old daughter did some kind of a Tai Chi fingerspreading over my keyboard which caused the computer to fall into a similar mode. Pulling out and re-plugging the power supply was the only way to regenerate it again (the only time ever). Unfortunately she was not able to reproduce the effect ... later, Ulf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 17: 3:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dell.dannyland.org (dell.dannyland.org [64.81.36.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A44C37B403 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:03:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@toldme.com) Received: by dell.dannyland.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 42C9C5BFA; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:03:27 -0700 From: dannyman To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: questions answered w paypal "tips" Message-ID: <20010614170327.O99558@toldme.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hrmmm. So, I'm playing with Linux Mandrake 8.0 on my laptop to see how the other half live in their user-friendly GUI. Gnome is pretty nice stuff, and while there are a few things I haven't licked yet, it is not a bad desktop environment. But then the box crashes a few times, and mozilla stops working. Why? Dunno. Reinstall it? Sure! Nada. So, I click on this desktop icon called "Mandrake Expert" and type my question in and get to chose from rated "experts" who apparently at some point can receive tips. And I think, why not? I'd be happy to chuck a guy a $5 for answering my question. Maybe more. I've got a PayPal account. I might even be able to expense it. Then it occurs to me that since, with PayPal, you just click "send money" and put in an e-mail address ... I could post a frustrating question, and offer $n to the first person to answer it to my satisfaction. A "gift culture" might be the most lightweight answer. This isn't like a big contract - if you can give me the clue to solve my mystery, then a few bucks makes it worth your while, you're more likely to read -questions and answer them. :) How's this sound, as an example? From: dannyman@toldme.com To: freebsd-questions Subject: [$5] Mozilla won't run. [I intend to PayPal $5 to the first person who helps me solve this problem successfully.] After a couple crashes, mozilla will no longer run. I tried reinstalling it, but nada. When I run /usr/local/bin/mozilla it exits successfully and nothing happens. So I step through the script. foo returns 0. bar shows this output, then hangs: yada yada yada Any ideas? [Note: I have no problem with Mozilla under FreeBSd. I send you no money, that's just an EXAMPLE!] Actually, as I write this e-mail I start thinking we could tie e-mail questions to some sort of "question queue" and when you're satisfied with your question you send people appropriate tips, and then you do like eBay where people give each other stars based on the quality of their answers / tips, so you build up a reputation. People who keep asking questions but renig on the tip they suggested start to look bad, and people who give marginal answeres and then feel jilted at their measly tip ... or simply just have a link to "history of this person's questions / answers, and the tips they gave." Well, anyway, I'm just tossing this at chat. Maybe it excites somebody, maybe someone is already doing this. -danny -- http://dannyman.toldme.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 18:31:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6177937B403 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:31:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh2.bfm.org [216.127.220.195]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:35:33 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010614203127.00b2db10@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:31:27 -0500 To: dannyman , chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: questions answered w paypal "tips" In-Reply-To: <20010614170327.O99558@toldme.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 17:03 14-06-2001 -0700, dannyman wrote: >How's this sound, as an example? It sounds offensive. Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 18:41:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06FF37B401 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:41:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5F1f4617538; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:41:09 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010614170327.O99558@toldme.com> References: <20010614170327.O99558@toldme.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:40:55 +0200 To: dannyman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: questions answered w paypal "tips" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:03 PM -0700 6/14/01, dannyman wrote: > Then it occurs to me that since, with PayPal, you just click "send > money" and put in an e-mail address ... I could post a frustrating > question, and offer $n to the first person to answer it to my > satisfaction. [ ... deletia ... ] > Well, anyway, I'm just tossing this at chat. Maybe it excites somebody, > maybe someone is already doing this. There are already websites that do this sort of thing, if not with actual (or virtual) money, then at least with /.-style "karma", which you can accumulate and use for things like asking your own questions, posting advertisements, etc.... I was a member of a web community like this for a brief period of time, and I could see that some people spent a *lot* of time on the site, and racked up quite a lot of points. Indeed, I wonder if some of them weren't trying to actually make this their full-time job. However, for me, it got boring and I left. I don't know how this sort of thing would translate to a mailing list. Perhaps if you set up a separate but affiliated list, and tied it in with a web site and other community-building exercises (somewhat akin to what Amazon tries very hard to do), you might be able to build it into a success. Or not. I dunno. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 19: 7:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow029o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62BB437B405 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew.boothman@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from andrew.blueyonder.co.uk ([62.31.80.67]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:07:17 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20010615030432.00a04570@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: dbsc11312_4/pop3.blueyonder.co.uk@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:05:10 +0100 To: "Jonathan Fortin" From: Andrew Boothman Subject: Re: Sysadmin Article --Which OS is Fastest for High-Performance Network Applications? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <00e901c0f43a$9aced2a0$13a86395@alink> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmm. If that's a case then I don't think we should let this slide. I would say that an email to aankerholz@cmp.com (The Editor-In-Chief) is in order. This is supposedly their 'featured article' this week, we can't really let their whole readership come away with that impression of FreeBSD's performance. At 02:56 PM 13/06/01 -0400, you wrote: >This is an example of a biased OS comparison chart > >It is a joke, My freebsd system can do more then 10,000 files in 200 secds, >In fact, it can do it under 30 seconds. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 22:36: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A0E37B40C for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:36:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01085 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:35:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010614233201.04566d20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:35:40 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: More FUD from Perens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perens continues his misleading rhetoric, with the complicity of ZDNet, at http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2775027,00.html Also note that, in one of the Talkback responses, he continues his disinformation campaign when he touts the GPL as promoting standards when in fact it sabotages them. This man is a veritable fount of FUD. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 14 23:16: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dell.dannyland.org (dell.dannyland.org [64.81.36.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD2137B401 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@toldme.com) Received: by dell.dannyland.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EA8145B8B; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:13:38 -0700 From: dannyman To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: questions answered w paypal "tips" Message-ID: <20010614231338.B391@toldme.com> References: <20010614170327.O99558@toldme.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:40:55AM +0200 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:40:55AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > There are already websites that do this sort of thing, if not > with actual (or virtual) money, then at least with /.-style "karma", [...] > I was a member of a web community like this for a brief period of > time, and I could see that some people spent a *lot* of time on the > site, and racked up quite a lot of points. Indeed, I wonder if some > of them weren't trying to actually make this their full-time job. Kinda like people who make their living off eBay. I tend to figure it might be a good source of fundages for whiz-kids with more free-time and intelligence than spare cash for hardwares and romances. > I don't know how this sort of thing would translate to a mailing > list. Perhaps if you set up a separate but affiliated list, and tied > it in with a web site and other community-building exercises > (somewhat akin to what Amazon tries very hard to do), you might be > able to build it into a success. Or not. I dunno. Well, if we wanted to get hard-core, one could do a web archive of a mailing list, that kept track of people by their e-mail address, and their karmic scores. Actually, if you had a proper web archive you could just search for responses / questions others have asked to determine how helpful / friendly / generous they are with the community. Community being the ultimate goal. :) Then you'd support "log in" (send password to person's claimed e-mail address) and maybe track karma. The money can be up to people. Giving money for answers would encourage your correspondants to raise your karma rating. Then, though, you start fretting about bribery. Anyways, stuff to dream on. -danny -- http://dannyman.toldme.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 0:18:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B14B37B401 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5F7I2l52846; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:18:00 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010613191818.E57154@lpt.ens.fr> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in] >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:18 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again > > >I think there's an element of truth: there are people who like being >different, but they aren't swayed by marketing tactics. I beg to differ! Most people that claim to like being different all seem to want to wear the same all-black clothing, they go to the same piercing places to get the same steel rivets injected into the same spots in their lips, they get the same paint spray cans to put the same colors in their hair, etc. etc. etc. >They're as >likely to buy a cheap ugly statue as an expensive ugly statue (or >perhaps more likely). > >The people who buy the expensive stuff may be swayed by the desire of >"being different", but often not, because the difference is just the >price -- and in fact the quality too may be genuinely better. The >more expensive Bordeaux wines tend to have a better flavour than the >cheaper ones, while being qualitatively the same thing, but the sort >of people you're talking about would probably buy them just because of >the price, and to appear "discerning" to the rest of the world. > >Also, I think many people do actually like the looks of the VW bug (I >liked the old one, and I'm beginning to like the new one too) and the I liked the old one as well to _look at_ but I hated riding and driving in it and after getting sucked into working on a few friend's old heaps I hated working on them. I've never seen an engine that was more tempermental, had more problems, had more design flaws that just created problems, nor a car that required more special tools to work on than the old air-cooled bugs. The idea you could repair one with a kitchen fork was the biggest joke in the world. Once the engines got more than 80,000 miles on them and all the seals started leaking, nursing another 20,000 miles out of them was impossible. >majority surely like the looks of the Mac, including the new aqua >stuff (look at the number of knockoffs on themes.org). So I think >most Mac users simply find the Mac better looking and easier to use >than Windows -- they don't just want to be "different" (though no >doubt Jobs wants the Mac to be different). Microsoft isn't abandoning >that market any time soon, they want whatever converts from Mac they >can get. > The real point of my not-so-subtle jabbing is that if Apple really wanted to sell computers based on their merits, they wouldn't resort to a cheap physological trick of the translucent colors. Note that Apple never gave the userbase a choice. They ran the translucant colors and never offered black or beige or white as options. So, I don't see that the majority likes the ugly colors. If Apple offered basic beige in addition to the ugly colors so that the users had a _real_ choice, and the majority turned their back on beige, then I'd say your right. All of this is advertising and marketing tricks, and people generally don't resort to those sorts of cheap tricks unless their attempting to make up a deficiency in their product elsewhere. It's screaming that the casing is more important than the guts. Style instead of substance. This is just like the VW new-bug. VW could care less about making a good car, what they want to make is a car that looks like the old 60's bugs because the baby-boomers all have fond memories of their old bugs and want to re-live their youth. I only hope that with the introduction of MacOS X that Apple's turning their back on these kinds of cheap tricks and starting to concentrate on substance instead of style again. >And if you think VW has no competition in ugliness of small cars -- >check out http://www.smart.com (a Daimler-Chrysler company) >These monstrosities are plentiful on Paris roads, and expensive, and I >can't understand it. > Yech!! It looks like a sawed-off new-bug, or a new-bug that was rear-ended by a semi-truck. Thank goodness they haven't let them into the US yet. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 0:24:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334BC37B406 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5F7O9608380 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:24:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA58750 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:25:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:25:03 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More FUD from Perens Message-ID: <20010615092503.A57622@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010614233201.04566d20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010614233201.04566d20@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:35:40PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jun 14, 2001 at 23:35:40: > Perens continues his misleading rhetoric, with the complicity of ZDNet, at > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2775027,00.html His point of view is common enough. You have yourself said that you don't think the BSD license is appropriate for desktop applications. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=40740+0+/usr/local/www/db/text/2001/freebsd-chat/20010603.freebsd-chat You gave it as a reason for not starting your own BSD-licensed project. So you can't disagree with him on that. You also thought the GPL is less suitable and will not produce a quality desktop, but plenty of people (me included) think it already has produced a quality desktop. So I understand you disagree with Perens, but that doesn't make what he says "misleading rhetoric". > Also note that, in one of the Talkback responses, he continues his > disinformation campaign when he touts the GPL as promoting standards when > in fact it sabotages them. Examples of the GPL sabotaging standards? gcc was one of the first ANSI-compliant C compilers around (before Sun's own bundled compiler, so that many ended up using gcc on Sun machines at that time). g++ today is closer to standards compliance than almost any other C++ compiler. All other GNU software seem to follow relevant standards as close as they can (including the GNU C library which follows the ISO C 99 and various other standards). If you find a piece of GNU software which doesn't follow some particular standard, have you thought of just writing in and telling the maintainers? Or are you complaining about the extensions to gcc, etc? I have news for you: every compiler I've ever seen has extensions. Look what Borland did to Pascal, for instance (it was an improvement, imo, but it was not standard). gcc at least has a -pedantic flag which you can use if you want to be correct. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 2:33:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B1537B407 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 02:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5F9XM625102 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:33:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA64191 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:34:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:34:15 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More FUD from Perens Message-ID: <20010615113415.C61673@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010615092503.A57622@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from davids@webmaster.com on Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:19:31AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on Jun 15, 2001 at 02:19:31: > > > Examples of the GPL sabotaging standards? > > It's not rocket science. Someone develops a standard and GPL's an > implementation of it. Someone developing a proprietary product now has two > choices, start from scratch on an implementation of the standard or start > from scratch on an implementation that is the easiest possible to work into > his product with just the functionality he absolutely needs. > > Which do you think the choice is going to be? Sorry, he said "sabotaging standards" which implies (to me, at least) sabotaging an *existing* standard, not a standard your own program is attempting to establish. To establish a new standard, I fully agree that the BSD license is the best way to go. And I disagree with Peren's view there (on things like kerberos). My problem was with Brett's claim that the GPL "sabotages" standards. Again, can you give an actual example of a standard which was "sabotaged" by the GPL? There are of course several standards (html, notably) which were sabotaged by commercial companies; GPL'd programs tend to be much better at implementing such things correctly. For a html editor, for instance, bluefish (GPL) is one of the best I've found, and for a web browser the best options seem to be mozilla (not GPL, but in effect closer to GPL than BSD) and konqueror (GPL). I've read that the C99 standard is well on its way to being fully implemented in gcc, while people like Microsoft have no plan of implementing it at all. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 3:11:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7B037B405 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5FA8v630102 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:08:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA65809 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:09:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:09:50 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More FUD from Perens Message-ID: <20010615120950.G61673@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010615113415.C61673@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from davids@webmaster.com on Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:01:10AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on Jun 15, 2001 at 03:01:10: > > I've read that the C99 standard is well on its way to being fully > > implemented in gcc, while people like Microsoft have no plan of > > implementing it at all. > > Let's look at this. Consider a universe in which gcc wasn't GPLed. > Microsoft's compiler might have been based on it. Microsoft might have even > tracked gcc's development with newer versions of its compiler. This might > have made it very inexpensive for Microsoft to implement the C99 standard. > > Equally importantly, it makes it hard for Microsoft to make significant > proprietary changes. Every change makes it harder for them to continue to > track the development. But, of course, this choice was never open to them, > so we'll never know whether they would have chosen it. > > It's possible the GPL is directly responsible for Microsoft's failure to > adopt C99. We'll never know. OK, so now the GPL is to blame for Microsoft not being C99-compliant? If Microsoft had been able to adopt GCC, they'd have done so *and made it incompatible*. That's their entire history, and they're not the only ones. Sendmail's existence didn't prevent Microsoft from sabotaging SMTP. And of course there's the Kerberos example. The drive to break standards comes not from an inability to implement them, but from a desire to lock in customers. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 5:25:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3201937B407 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:25:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5FCPB610687; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:25:11 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:22:02 +0200 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Rahul Siddharthan" From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:18 AM -0700 6/15/01, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > I beg to differ! Most people that claim to like being different all > seem to want to wear the same all-black clothing, they go to the same > piercing places to get the same steel rivets injected into the same > spots in their lips, they get the same paint spray cans to put the same > colors in their hair, etc. etc. etc. I must disagree. For a very long time, I wore all-black clothing (and would still prefer to do so if my wife didn't strenuously object), and I've never voluntarily had any part of my body pierced (except when having surgery). The only thing that has ever pierced my body involuntarily (so far) was the lead of a pencil I was carrying, as I was trying to sneak back into class after having snuck out to get it sharpened, and I was crawling along the floor when the lead broke off inside my right palm. That was 3rd grade, and you can still see the lead in my palm today. The only jewelry I sport is a digital watch and usually a wedding ring, although if I'm wearing a suit and tie, I may also have a tie clip or stud, and if I'm wearing a shirt with French cuffs, I will also have cufflinks. No, the glasses don't count as "jewelry". > The real point of my not-so-subtle jabbing is that if Apple really > wanted to sell computers based on their merits, they wouldn't resort > to a cheap physological trick of the translucent colors. It wasn't a "cheap physological [sic] trick". It was one of the most expensive manufacturing ramp-ups in history, because up to that point in time, no one had *EVER* managed to figure out how to do casting of translucent plastics on anything remotely resembling that kind of scale -- maybe small pocket calculators, but that was about it. No, they had powerful machines, at reasonable prices, with the most user-friendly OS on the planet, and the clincher was that they were stunningly beautiful and looked absolutely nothing like the previous generations of machines that stodgy old computer businesses had been shoving down people's throats since the 1980s. Then the entire world got on the translucent bandwagon. Unfortunately, none of them could do it as well as Apple, so they really brought down the overall average level of interest that was displayed by the people. Which is what drove Apple to explore ever more different case designs, color combinations, patterns, etc.... > Note that Apple never gave the userbase a choice. They ran the translucant > colors and never offered black or beige or white as options. So, I don't > see that the majority likes the ugly colors. If Apple offered > basic beige in addition to the ugly colors so that the users had a _real_ > choice, and the majority turned their back on beige, then I'd say your > right. The majority turned their back on beige because, for the first time in many, many years, Apple was getting a serious percentage of first-time computer users to buy their machines, instead of selling upgrades into the same mass of people that had bought previously bought their shlock. Moreover, they were also getting much higher levels of converts from the PC side, which at that time was still offering only the beige and black garbage. Which is what made them panic and jump on the translucent bandwagon. > All of this is advertising and marketing tricks, and people generally don't > resort to those sorts of cheap tricks unless their attempting to make > up a deficiency in their product elsewhere. There was no deficiency. What they were trying to do was attract people's attention, and then once they had their attention, they would see that not only was the product in question better than the competition in every way (including price/performance and especially total cost of ownership), but it was also a hell of a lot more physically attractive -- instead of an ugly computer box you try to desperately hide under your desk, people now had computing sculpture that they could proudly display on top of the desk. > It's screaming that the casing > is more important than the guts. Style instead of substance. No, Apple had both style and substance. As they've had with all the products since the iMac launch, but especially the PowerMacintosh G3, the LCD Studio Display, the PowerBook G4, the original iBook, and now the new "iceBook". Even the Cube had both style and substance, the primary problem was that it was no more upgradeable than an iMac and you had to pay extra for a display. People tended to either want a less expensive machine (so they went with the iMac), or a more upgradeable machine (so they went with the PowerMac G4), leaving the Cube in the cold. Now that the price has come down a lot on the Cube, they are moving a lot faster. > This is > just like the VW new-bug. VW could care less about making a good > car, what they want to make is a car that looks like the old 60's bugs > because the baby-boomers all have fond memories of their old bugs and > want to re-live their youth. Problem here. The New VW Beetle is basically a VW Golf, with a new body. The VW Golf is widely recognized as one of the best cars in the world (in its sector), and is one of the most widely copied cars in the world (witness the new Nissan Almera, the Alfa Romeo 147, and the Peugeot 307, all three of which are almost exact rip-offs of the Golf). It is one of the safest cars in the world (scoring four stars out of four that were possible at the time, in the European New Car Assessment Program or EuroNCAP), and is one of the very best selling cars of all time. Moreover, the other cars from the other members of the VW Auto Group, which share the same basic platform as the Golf (the Seat Leon, the Skoda Fabia, the Audi A4, etc...) are also extremely, extremely successful in the market. If you were to add up all the cars sold in the world that are based on the same platform as the Golf, to the sales figures for the Golf itself, you would quickly see that this car has sold more copies than any other in history (almost certainly by at least one order of magnitude), and this record will not and indeed cannot be eclipsed for many, many decades to come -- there simply aren't enough cars sold in the world. The New Beetle builds on all of these advantages, and puts on a new face that a lot of people find very attractive. Indeed, this really is quite a lot like the change in the Macintosh between the original PowerMacintosh G3 (which was rather dowdy and beige), and the replacement "Blue & White" PowerMacintosh G3 (which was largely the same hardware, repackaged in a revolutionary new, extremely beautiful, and the most functional case that the computer industry has ever seen). > I only hope that with the introduction of MacOS X that Apple's turning their > back on these kinds of cheap tricks and starting to concentrate on substance > instead of style again. Again, Apple has plenty of substance here. It's based on Mach and *BSD Unix, with all the many years of knowledge NeXT had with NeXTstep and OpenStep, and combined with the many years of knowledge that Apple has in upgrading their installed base from an old platform (based on the Motorola 68000 family of chips) to a new one (based on the PowerPC), with a minimum of muss and fuss. >>And if you think VW has no competition in ugliness of small cars -- >>check out http://www.smart.com (a Daimler-Chrysler company) >>These monstrosities are plentiful on Paris roads, and expensive, and I >>can't understand it. Actually, the MCC Smart is a quite attractive car in my book. If you want ugly, there are plenty of other tiny two seaters I've seen running around here in Belgium that are far, far uglier. Unfortunately, I don't recall any names of the bloody things off the top of my head, but if you want something that looks like it came out of the rear-end of an elephant and then had the inside carved out and an engine put in, there are many far worse candidates than the MCC Smart. > Yech!! It looks like a sawed-off new-bug, or a new-bug that was rear-ended > by a semi-truck. Thank goodness they haven't let them into the US yet. Actually, it looks a lot like the Mercedes A-Class, because there was a lot of overlap in the Engineering teams (Mercedes is a 50% owner of MCC, and Swatch owns the other 50%), and the Smart benefited greatly from the previous experience that Mercedes had on the A-Class, specifically in the area of handling and avoiding being tipped over in extreme situations. Note that the one of the primary production facilities for the Mercedes A-Class is in the US, in their new plant in Alabama. This is the same one that is the primary production facility for the Mercedes M-Class. Their policies and procedures are so well documented here that they are allowed to make cars for both the domestic and export markets at the same shop on the same lines, because the government is quite confident that Mercedes does literally track each and every individual bolt and nut, and knows which ones have had the appropriate domestic taxes paid on them and which ones are destined for export. I would not be at all surprised to start seeing the new long-wheelbase version of the Mercedes A-Class in the US (where bigger cars are the rule, and morons can't get enough of the monster SUVs that are getting bigger and bigger with every year -- pretty soon they will literally be as big as houses, and what used to be four-lane superhighways will instead be back-country one-lane roads). You may be surprised to hear this, but the new long-wheelbase version of the Mercedes A-Class actually has *more* leg room in the back than the vaunted Mercedes S-Class, which is the choice of executives around the world as their roomiest and most comfortable car to be driven around in. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 5:39:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4EC237B405 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5FCda647847 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:39:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA71864 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:40:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:40:29 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010615144029.J61673@lpt.ens.fr> References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:22:02PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >>And if you think VW has no competition in ugliness of small cars -- > >>check out http://www.smart.com (a Daimler-Chrysler company) > >>These monstrosities are plentiful on Paris roads, and expensive, and I > >>can't understand it. > > Actually, the MCC Smart is a quite attractive car in my book. If > you want ugly, there are plenty of other tiny two seaters I've seen > running around here in Belgium that are far, far uglier. I haven't seen any here yet. I know of one upcoming low-cost car project in India, the Reva (http://www.revaindia.com) but that's electric, for which I'm willing to forgive a lot. The Smart doesn't even have that saving grace (nor is it low-cost)... > Actually, it looks a lot like the Mercedes A-Class, because there That looks hideous too, in my book. But it's not in the same category as the smart; more like Suzuki's Wagon-R, or Hyundai's Santro (a model they have in India, I'm not sure about other countries). All of which look ghastly. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 6:33:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E28937B40B for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 06:33:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA33332; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:32:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Jun 2001 15:32:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > I must disagree. For a very long time, I wore all-black > clothing (and would still prefer to do so if my wife didn't > strenuously object), and I've never voluntarily had any part of my > body pierced (except when having surgery). All-black, shaved head, no piercings; a titanium watch, a gold engagement ring, a tiny pendant on a thin gold chain, and, when appropriate, Killer Loop shades (K0780 Rebellion - I liked my old K0801 Treacherous better, but I lost them, and couldn't find a new pair). And my fian=E7=E9e doesn't mind at all :) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 7:13:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FE337B401 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5FECd421367; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:12:39 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:48:17 +0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:32 PM +0200 6/15/01, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > All-black, shaved head, no piercings; a titanium watch, a gold > engagement ring, a tiny pendant on a thin gold chain, and, when > appropriate, Killer Loop shades (K0780 Rebellion - I liked my old > K0801 Treacherous better, but I lost them, and couldn't find a new > pair). And my fian=E7=E9e doesn't mind at all :) Ahh, but why are you doing it? Is it because you want to be different, or perceived as different, or is it because you're fat and wearing all black makes you look a little thinner? I know what my answer is, so what's yours? And yes, the picture at does give you a hint. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key =3D "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 7:19:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F14337B40A for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:18:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5FEIr661310 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:18:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA76455 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:19:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:19:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010615161947.M61673@lpt.ens.fr> References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:48:17PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Jun 15, 2001 at 15:48:17: > At 3:32 PM +0200 6/15/01, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > All-black, shaved head, no piercings; a titanium watch, a gold > > engagement ring, a tiny pendant on a thin gold chain, and, when > > appropriate, Killer Loop shades (K0780 Rebellion - I liked my old > > K0801 Treacherous better, but I lost them, and couldn't find a new > > pair). And my fiançée doesn't mind at all :) > > Ahh, but why are you doing it? Is it because you want to be > different, or perceived as different, I hardly think wearing black clothes qualifies as being "different" in Europe (from what I've seen of it, at least--though it's a bit better in the summer). Another nit: you claim to prefer British spelling in "most cases" on that page -- but that's not consistent with "jewelry", "color" in your last mail :-) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 7:29:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E996037B407 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5FET2407872; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:29:02 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010615161947.M61673@lpt.ens.fr> References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010615161947.M61673@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:28:54 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:19 PM +0200 6/15/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I hardly think wearing black clothes qualifies as being "different" in > Europe (from what I've seen of it, at least--though it's a bit better > in the summer). When I started wearing black, it was many years ago, and many, many years before I moved to Europe. At the time, I had friends that were "Goths", and that is why they wore black. I had my own, different reasons. > Another nit: you claim to prefer British spelling in "most cases" on > that page -- but that's not consistent with "jewelry", "color" in your > last mail :-) I do generally prefer proper British spelling, but I do not always manage to adhere to it. Having a built-in as-you-type spelling checker in my current MUA of choice does tend to cause me to use more American-style spellings in many cases, if only to get rid of the red underlined text. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 7:58:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA15237B401 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:58:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA33685; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:58:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Jun 2001 16:58:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Ahh, but why are you doing it? Is it because you want to be > different, or perceived as different, or is it because you're fat and > wearing all black makes you look a little thinner? I know what my > answer is, so what's yours? I started wearing black because I thought it looked cool; now I do it because it lets me wear conservative clothes (slacks and a button-up shirt) without projecting a conservative image. I cut my hair very short because it saves me time, money and effort; I bought a titanium watch because it's more comfortable and tasteful than plastic, yet lighter and more discreet than steel or gold; and I bought Killer Loop shades because I needed wraparounds for rollerblading but wouldn't be caught dead wearing Oakleys. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 8: 3:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB4D37B406 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA33707; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:03:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010615161947.M61673@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Jun 2001 17:03:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010615161947.M61673@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > I hardly think wearing black clothes qualifies as being "different" in > Europe (from what I've seen of it, at least--though it's a bit better > in the summer). Sure, black jeans and T-shirts are common these days, but I don't wear jeans and I seldom wear what most people think of as T-shirts. I wear slacks and either a tight-fitting cotton T-shirt or a dress shirt, and sometimes also a thin wool high-necked sweater or a suit jacket. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 10:31:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6481737B411 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:31:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07269; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:31:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010615085239.0465b6a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:54:40 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Rahul Siddharthan" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: In-Reply-To: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <20010613191818.E57154@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:18 AM 6/15/2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >The real point of my not-so-subtle jabbing is that if Apple really >wanted to sell computers based on their merits, they wouldn't resort >to a cheap physological trick of the translucent colors. The late Douglas Adams said it best: "Alright, Mr. Wiseguy, you're so clever, YOU tell us what color it should be!" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 11:20:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D16F37B408 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 5773766B00E; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:13:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:13:04 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Message-ID: <20010615121304.A14716@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123127.045a6690@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010612164541.00c43ad0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612164541.00c43ad0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:54:05PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:54:05PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > He also cannot so much as fathom the notion that the GPL might be > unethical -- despite the explicit statements of Richard Stallman, > the author of the GPL, that it was intended to hurt programmers and > to "punish" small software developers (in particular, the spinoffs > from the MIT AI Lab). Hi, I was wondering if you could point to books/sites, etc to substanstiate this claim. Sincerly, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 11:30:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A285C37B408 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 94F4666B00E; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:23:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:23:09 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FW: FTP almost gone now? (was: Re: IPFW almost works now.) Message-ID: <20010615122309.B14716@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <200106131539.LAA02461@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200106131539.LAA02461@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>; from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 11:39:50AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 11:39:50AM -0400, Garrett Wollman wrote: > > I was under the impression that the http protocol is a much 'chattier' > > protocol than ftp, and that regardless of them running on identical tcp > > connections, FTP is much more efficient by nature of the Protocol. > > Not at all. Here is a minimal HTTP request (assuming you're GETting > files; PUTting them is more involved): How does gopher compare?? I have heard that it is more efficient than http but I don't know how to find out. Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 12: 4: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A582337B40F for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9DF8118D9; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83AB318D8; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:04:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Chris Moline Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FW: FTP almost gone now? (was: Re: IPFW almost works now.) In-Reply-To: <20010615122309.B14716@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Not at all. Here is a minimal HTTP request (assuming you're GETting > > files; PUTting them is more involved): > How does gopher compare?? I have heard that it is more efficient than http but > I don't know how to find out. Install it and test it out? :) Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 14: 0:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C0E37B401; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:00:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19350; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:00:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25028; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:00:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15146.30554.463264.814571@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:00:10 -0600 (MDT) To: Mike Silbersack Cc: chat@FreebSD.org Subject: Re: Howdy In-Reply-To: <20010615135408.N25403-100000@achilles.silby.com> References: <20010615135408.N25403-100000@achilles.silby.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moved to -chat ] > Hello all, just got my commit bit and thought I'd check in here. I hail > from the state of Wisconsin (USA), which (as I've been told) has the > highest cow to human ratio in the United States. Actually, Wyoming has that title. > So, if you need dairy > products, I can probably hook you up with some. However, Wisconsin probably has the 'dairy cow' title. > I'll be poking around the TCP stack and related areas of the kernel, > attempting to cause as little trouble as possible. :) Welcome to the funny farm. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 15:56: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6765637B401 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010615225601.VPUL25303.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com>; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:56:01 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010615184628.0179aa58@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:52:15 -0400 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" From: Technical Information Subject: RE: BSD User Group Tips Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <000901c0f566$845e0f40$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sheesh, Ted, you make the Linux users sound like a bunch of little bitches or something. Not that I think your point was invalid, but this was a funny way of phrasing it. That "Mary can you help me" line just has me imagining a group of Linux users sitting around doing each others nails or something. Anyway, I do get the sense from my readings that Linux users like feeling a part of something revolutionary, and that sense of community is big part of their choice for the OS. BSD folks just seem to either (a) appreciate well-designed technology or (b) just want to get something done. But changing the world is at best a by-product of real work for us. --Chip Morton At 02:43 AM 6/15/2001, you wrote: >[snip] >Liken the Linux community as a gaggle of hens and BSD as a group of >roosters. >Or, a sexist explanation is BSD is a bunch of he-men saying "leave me >alone I'll do it myself" and Linux is a bunch of women saying "Oh this >doesen't work, Mary can you help me?" >[snip] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 16:16:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from silby.com (cb34181-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.14.173.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E80637B401 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:16:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from silby@silby.com) Received: (qmail 26351 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Jun 2001 23:16:54 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 15 Jun 2001 23:16:53 -0000 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:16:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Silbersack To: Nate Williams Cc: Subject: Re: Howdy In-Reply-To: <15146.30554.463264.814571@nomad.yogotech.com> Message-ID: <20010615181310.N26286-100000@achilles.silby.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Nate Williams wrote: > [ Moved to -chat ] > > > Hello all, just got my commit bit and thought I'd check in here. I hail > > from the state of Wisconsin (USA), which (as I've been told) has the > > highest cow to human ratio in the United States. > > Actually, Wyoming has that title. > > > So, if you need dairy > > products, I can probably hook you up with some. > > However, Wisconsin probably has the 'dairy cow' title. Yeah, I was talking about dairy cows. I had forgotten about the whole beef cattle thing; you don't see many of those around here. Mike "Silby" Silbersack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 15 16:17:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maile.telia.com (maile.telia.com [194.22.190.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEEB637B403 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:17:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from d1o74.telia.com (d1o74.telia.com [62.20.224.241]) by maile.telia.com (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f5FNHX709101; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:17:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.10.20] (t4o74p10.telia.com [62.20.225.130]) by d1o74.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22491; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:17:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:16:47 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Fredrik Olausson X-Sender: fredrik@molly.telia.com To: Technical Information Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , FreeBSD Chat Subject: RE: BSD User Group Tips In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010615184628.0179aa58@mail.threespace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Technical Information wrote: > Anyway, I do get the sense from my readings that Linux users like feeling a > part of something revolutionary, and that sense of community is big part of > their choice for the OS. BSD folks just seem to either (a) appreciate > well-designed technology or (b) just want to get something done. But > changing the world is at best a by-product of real work for us. Hmm... I do get the feeling that the slashdot in-crowd mainly consists of kick-bike riding punk music fans with thinkgeek.com tshirts... and then there's me of course ;-) Anyhow, I agree with your analysis of the BSD community, my impression is that the BSD crowd is much more down-to-earth. -F To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 1: 5: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13609.mail.yahoo.com (web13609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9862E37B405 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:04:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010616080451.84356.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13609.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:04:50 PDT Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:04:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Brad Knowles wrote: > The majority turned their back on beige because, for the first > time in many, many years, Apple was getting a serious percentage of > first-time computer users to buy their machines, instead of selling > upgrades into the same mass of people that had bought previously > bought their shlock. > > Moreover, they were also getting much higher levels of converts > from the PC side, which at that time was still offering only the > beige and black garbage. Which is what made them panic and jump on > the translucent bandwagon. > Any numbers to illustrate this? How about installed base growth? Bottom line: ...it's the bottom line... since 1996 a company can donate a computer to a school district in USA and write the whole price off within the first 2 years. That's when the Apple started to agonise - schools are lost. Where I am at it's HP flooding local schools and libraries with computers, not Apple. I still like the Mac OS Classic as it's called now the most and Mac OS X is the most beautiful Unix in history with a potential to make Unix a consumers' OS. But this potential will be annihilated by the 'wisdom' of Stevie and his sucker-uppers. Besides, Mac OS X is far from being as functionally transparent as Classic. Pity for all bright engineers at Apple: Stevie conceived it and he will bury it. Only a small percentage of consumers aimes for the best, most take the best price, just go to Costco. You can tell them all you want about advantages in the long run - TCO, no need for tech support and stupid VB programmers, much higher productivity, longer use cycle, etc. Apple Computers has the same place in the history of marketing as the SU in the social history: the best example of how things should not be done even if you have the best brainpower and ideas. just my 2 farthings ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 5:35:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217E637B403 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 05:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5GCZB407943; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:35:11 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010616080451.84356.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010616080451.84356.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:35:08 +0200 To: Bzdik BSD , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:04 AM -0700 6/16/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > Any numbers to illustrate this? How about installed base growth? The only numbers I recall having seen were quoted by Steve Jobs during his WWDC (World Wide Developers Conference) keynote speech in May of 2000. From : iMac at age 2 "Now, I want to focus in on the iMac because this month two years ago we introduced the iMac. Shipped it in August of that year. But the iMac is two years old, publicly, this month. And in that two years we've shipped almost three and a half million iMacs to customers around the world. And what boggles my mind is in two years there's still no credible competition for this. "There's still not a desktop computer without a fan in it that doesn't make a bunch of noise. There's still not one with a super crisp display. Or FireWire built in. Or slot load DVD drives. Or super great audio built in. There's nothing like it. And there's nothing that you don't want to hide when company comes over." So far as I can tell, these statements are as true today as they were then. Now, for the numbers: Who's buying iMacs? According to the research, says Jobs, 28% of iMac customers are first time buyers (meaning that they've never owned a computer before), and Wintel switchers account for another 17% - a total of 45% new customers. Jobs noted that 88% of iMac customers were on the Internet (two thirds of them getting there the first day), and that 65% have already purchased something online. Interestingly enough, 61% had said they did not consider anything else before buying an iMac. Sounds pretty convincing to me. > Bottom line: ...it's the bottom line... since 1996 a company can donate > a computer to a school district in USA and write the whole price off > within the first 2 years. That's when the Apple started to agonise - > schools are lost. Where I am at it's HP flooding local schools and > libraries with computers, not Apple. The only reason Apple would be hurt by this is that most Apple computers are useful for far more than just two years. Most places hang on to them much longer than that. For those that don't, there is such a strong market in used Apple computers that it doesn't make sense to try to take them as a tax write off. If you don't believe me about the strong resale market, just take a look on eBay at what two year old computers are selling for -- pretty close to what you could buy a new machine for that is a lot faster, has more RAM, and a much faster and larger hard drive. Contrariwise, most companies seem to consider PCs totally worthless after two years, so they *NEED* to be able to take the tax write off on them. Sounds to me like this might be yet another example of the Microsoft/Intel hegemony flexing their corporate monopoly muscle to get laws passed that benefit only them. > I still like the Mac OS Classic as it's called now the most and Mac OS > X is the most beautiful Unix in history with a potential to make Unix a > consumers' OS. But this potential will be annihilated by the 'wisdom' > of Stevie and his sucker-uppers. Care to explain this one? > Besides, Mac OS X is far from being as > functionally transparent as Classic. Pity for all bright engineers at > Apple: Stevie conceived it and he will bury it. The jury is still out on MacOS X. It's got a ways to go before I'm willing to use it, and I've been waiting for something like this for seventeen years. Unless you've been both a MacFanatic *and* a Unix advocate for that period of time, I'm not entirely sure that you're really qualified to make this kind of statement. > Only a small percentage of consumers aimes for the best, most take the > best price, just go to Costco. You can tell them all you want about > advantages in the long run - TCO, no need for tech support and stupid > VB programmers, much higher productivity, longer use cycle, etc. Sure, the "disposable everything" culture. We've all heard about it. Strange thing is, there are enough intelligent companies (and individual people) out there who will take a look at the whole picture that Apple doesn't really need to concern itself too much. They're still a world apart, and seem to be weathering the economic downturn far better than any other PC manufacturer I know: Apple was upgraded by Sanford Bernstein's Vadim Zlotnikov today. Mr. Zlotnikov cites Apple's strong notebook sales and strong PowerBook G4 sales as the catalyst to his upgraded earnings forecast. From TheStreet.com: "Recent channel surveys indicate strong initial iBook sales and continued success of Power Book, consistent with overall strength in notebooks. Notebooks should drive 60% of Apple's sequential revenue growth," Zlotnikov wrote. There are plenty of people out there who are willing to spend a little extra money to get a quality car (such as a BMW). You don't see anyone talking about them going out of business, do you? So why are you so egotistically, ecstatically, mono-maniacally driven to spread even more Microsoft-brand FUD around? Can't we just get along? -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 11: 7:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A11337B401 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:07:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA70504 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5GI8VK27157 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20010616080451.84356.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:58:20 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:35 PM +0200 6/16/01, Brad Knowles wrote: >They're still a world apart, and seem to be weathering the economic >downturn far better than any other PC manufacturer I know: I was at the press conference in Cupertino when Apple announced the release of Mac OS X. One of the questions was how Apple was going to deal with the economic downturn. Steve responded that Apple was in the fortunate position of having a couple of billion dollars on hand and no real debt, so they planned to sail right through it, doing the long-term things they needed to do. Speaking for myself, I am happy to pay Apple a bit extra if it allows them to do the kind of R&D that produces nice machines and OSes, stay out of trouble in recessions, etc. -r -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 12:15:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E8D37B401 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A06D82500C8; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:15:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3B2BB18F.A5EADC93@wiegand.org> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:20:48 -0700 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Cisco switch for sale (ignore if not interested) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hope you all don't mind my posting this here, but I have no need of this (Iexpect the Chat list to be okay with this): Cisco 1924C-A 24 port switch. - 24 10BaseT ports, - 1 100BaseFX port (FibreOptic) - 1 100BaseTX port (all ports are switched) - Half- or Full-duplex operation on all 10BaseT and 100BaseT ports - All the other typical Cisco features, they have a web page about this unit I'll see it for whatever I can get for it, the more the better of course. :-) Probably should ask at least $300 though. I'm open. If anyone is interested just email me. I'll even pay the shipping costs - ups ground. -- Chip W chip@wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 13: 9:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E743837B403 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:09:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010616200918.8987.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:09:18 PDT Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:09:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Brad Knowles wrote: > > Who's buying iMacs? > > According to the research, says Jobs, 28% of iMac customers are > first time buyers (meaning that they've never owned a computer > before), and Wintel switchers account for another 17% - a total > of 45% new customers. Jobs noted that 88% of iMac customers were > on the Internet (two thirds of them getting there the first > day), and that 65% have already purchased something online. > Interestingly enough, 61% had said they did not consider > anything else before buying an iMac. > > Sounds pretty convincing to me. Are you still living in 2000? How many percent of your gynaecologist clients are on Internet? Very convincing.... Sory, couldn't help, but you are arguing with yourself. When I told you about tax write-offs that are in effect since late XX century, you 'explain' to me what _should_ happen. That's exactly what already had happened - market share shrinks. We are no talking about belief vs belief, we are talking money. You did not even know about that aspect, did you? But you have to sound very authorative. Then you go on with some analyst as an argument. Better talk to an APPL options MM at CBOE if you are that smart. I was a spoo MM on CME floor and used Newton 2100 as my calc pad for arbs. I was the only one with Newton there, so you can ask people around and they'd tell you. Any PR VP learned about a year ago to exctract 'dot-com' and 'analyst' out of any promo schpiel, Apple hasn't done this with iMac and it's Apple's problem. Do you use iMac? Are you 12 y. o.? the fucking baby boomers with their farsightedness can't see anything on the poor quality screens. So many techies are clueless when it comes to finances, and god saw it's good. they have no clue what financial classes are, what correlation with R/R is, etc. keep repeating after Stevie, other repeat after JFC, Shiva, Buddha and Vadimchik Zlotnikov. btw, you could look at maccentral.com if you ARE qualified by some authority to talk about this, and see that even they have confused themselves with 'analsts' blabber. The only difference betwen you and any analyst is how to get there. And please don't double post to me and the list. It's about time for an Architect to learn a few things. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 13:12:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13608.mail.yahoo.com (web13608.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B759437B405 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010616201230.8910.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13608.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:12:30 PDT Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:12:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Rich Morin wrote: > Speaking for myself, I am happy to pay Apple a bit extra if it allows > them to do the kind of R&D that produces nice machines and OSes, stay > out of trouble in recessions, etc. What do you make of the chipset? I think it's a bit outdated and they could benefit tremendously from the power of PPC CPU if they catch up on this one. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 14:17:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D1837B403 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA57237 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5GLJ6K68145 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010616201230.8910.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010616201230.8910.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:08:53 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:12 PM -0700 6/16/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: >--- Rich Morin wrote: > >> Speaking for myself, I am happy to pay Apple a bit extra if it allows >> them to do the kind of R&D that produces nice machines and OSes, stay >> out of trouble in recessions, etc. > >What do you make of the chipset? I think it's a bit outdated and they >could benefit tremendously from the power of PPC CPU if they catch up >on this one. IBM has some really amazing versions of the PPC that Apple hasn't yet taken advantage of. My presumption is that Apple is waiting until the price comes down a bit. Meanwhile, I'd love to see Apple work out a deal to put Mac OS X Server on some larger PPC-based iron. -r -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 15:20:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784B337B401 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:20:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5GMKJl59982; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:20:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brad Knowles" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:20:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c0f6b2$85e71760$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad.knowles@skynet.be] > > The majority turned their back on beige because, for the first >time in many, many years, Apple was getting a serious percentage of >first-time computer users to buy their machines, instead of selling >upgrades into the same mass of people that had bought previously >bought their shlock. > No, the majority didn't turn their back on Beige because Apple never gave them a choice. Nobody will ever know how many Mac purchasers would have preferred buying beige or black iMacs now, and so it's safe for the pro-colors crowd to claim, as you are doing, that the majority would have turned their backs on beige. >> This is >> just like the VW new-bug. VW could care less about making a good >> car, what they want to make is a car that looks like the old 60's bugs >> because the baby-boomers all have fond memories of their old bugs and >> want to re-live their youth. > > Problem here. The New VW Beetle is basically a VW Golf, with a >new body. The VW Golf is widely recognized as one of the best cars >in the world (in its sector), and is one of the most widely copied >cars in the world (witness the new Nissan Almera, the Alfa Romeo 147, >and the Peugeot 307, all three of which are almost exact rip-offs of >the Golf). It is one of the safest cars in the world (scoring four >stars out of four that were possible at the time, in the European New >Car Assessment Program or EuroNCAP), and is one of the very best >selling cars of all time. > This just proves my point. With the new-bug, now your saying that VW didn't even _bother_ to design a new vehicle, they just slapped different fiberglass on the top of a chassis they were already grinding out. I'm not faulting VW for attempting to take advantage of all the baby boomers fond memories of their old bugs, that's shrewd marketing. I'm just pointing out that the new-bug _is_ all about marketing - why do you think that VW has created an artificial shartage of them? It's just to drive up the price. The new-bug is all about marketing and making a ton of money and little about designing a good car - they didn't even bother to do that they just re-used an existing chassis. The fact that this chassis may be highly rated was entirely beside the point, if VW didn't have such a chassis on hand they would have just used a different one. > Moreover, the other cars from the other members of the VW Auto >Group, which share the same basic platform as the Golf (the Seat >Leon, the Skoda Fabia, the Audi A4, etc...) are also extremely, >extremely successful in the market. If you were to add up all the >cars sold in the world that are based on the same platform as the >Golf, to the sales figures for the Golf itself, you would quickly see >that this car has sold more copies than any other in history (almost >certainly by at least one order of magnitude), and this record will >not and indeed cannot be eclipsed for many, many decades to come -- >there simply aren't enough cars sold in the world. > In any auto sales, your always going to sell more cheap cars than more expensive cars. This doesen't prove anything about quality, the majority of auto buyers look at price first, quality second. All it proves is that this VW platform is designed to allow it to be used to churn out vehicles cheaply and rapidly. If you really want to know if a car is quality, then look at how many of them are still on the road 20 years after production. VW churned out millions and millions of the old bugs but you rarely see one around today, whereas there's still plenty of old Japanese manufactured cars around and about. Hell I've got a 20 year old 210 with 250,000 miles on it and it's still kicking along on the original engine, you could never get that kind of mileage out of an old bug engine. > > Note that the one of the primary production facilities for the >Mercedes A-Class is in the US, in their new plant in Alabama. This >is the same one that is the primary production facility for the >Mercedes M-Class. Their policies and procedures are so well >documented here that they are allowed to make cars for both the >domestic and export markets at the same shop on the same lines, >because the government is quite confident that Mercedes does >literally track each and every individual bolt and nut, and knows >which ones have had the appropriate domestic taxes paid on them and >which ones are destined for export. > Auto manufacturing literally does need to track every bolt and nut. Not that this is that difficult considering how it's so highly automated. There's quality reasons of course but the primary one is cost - if you are churning out a million cars a year on a line, a small mistake is enormously expensive. > > I would not be at all surprised to start seeing the new >long-wheelbase version of the Mercedes A-Class in the US (where >bigger cars are the rule, and morons can't get enough of the monster >SUVs that are getting bigger and bigger with every year -- pretty >soon they will literally be as big as houses, and what used to be >four-lane superhighways will instead be back-country one-lane roads). > I don't drive or own a SUV and I can't stand them. But, there's reasons besides pure marketing they are so popular here, for starters there's simply more asphalt in the US than anywhere else, people waste more of their lives driving. When your spending 2-3 hours of your life a DAY just sitting in your car, a lot of people want to drag the entire house along with themselves, your analogy is pretty correct. Another reason is they sit you way up in God's ass so you can see over the tops of other cars - useful when your stuck on a congested highway and looking at the ass-end of the car in front of you is just too mind-numbing. Of course since everyone else has figured this out too and is now driving SUV's the advantage is negated - but the SUV drivers are too stupid to have figured this one out yet. Of course, though, the big reason they are selling is still marketing - the idea that the country is full of wide-open spaces and you need a big car to get around in them - despite the fact that this isn't true anymore and few SUV drivers spend more than 2% of the time driving anywhere other than in the city. > You may be surprised to hear this, but the new long-wheelbase >version of the Mercedes A-Class actually has *more* leg room in the >back than the vaunted Mercedes S-Class, which is the choice of >executives around the world as their roomiest and most comfortable >car to be driven around in. > I still prefer a 1970's Lincoln Continental or Cadillac, or even an Olds 98, those were made back in the days when the backseat was truly designed for adults to have a comfortable ride. Sadly, those cars have almost all gone from the roads today and their like will never be seen again. Comparted to them, the modern Mercedes is a kiddie car. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 15:22: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF71C37B403 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5GMLil59988; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:21:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:21:44 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0f6b2$b986ba80$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So I guess when you want to shock everyone you wear a suit? ;-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: des@ofug.org [mailto:des@ofug.org] >Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 6:33 AM >To: Brad Knowles >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; Rahul Siddharthan; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again > > >Brad Knowles writes: >> I must disagree. For a very long time, I wore all-black >> clothing (and would still prefer to do so if my wife didn't >> strenuously object), and I've never voluntarily had any part of my >> body pierced (except when having surgery). > >All-black, shaved head, no piercings; a titanium watch, a gold >engagement ring, a tiny pendant on a thin gold chain, and, when >appropriate, Killer Loop shades (K0780 Rebellion - I liked my old >K0801 Treacherous better, but I lost them, and couldn't find a new >pair). And my fiançée doesn't mind at all :) > >DES >-- >Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 15:28:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BABC37B403 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:28:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22431; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:28:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010616161819.044b3b00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:28:00 -0600 To: Chip , "chat@freebsd.org" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Cisco switch for sale (ignore if not interested) In-Reply-To: <3B2BB18F.A5EADC93@wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip: If all of the user ports are 10BaseT (which they will be if it's the 1900 series rather than the 2900 series), it probably won't fetch $300. I recently bought a NetGear FS516 -- a very fast unmanaged 16-port switch with ALL 100BaseTX ports -- on eBay for $62. I estimate that you'd get between $200 and $250 for the one you have, mainly because the Cisco brand name will inflate the price a bit. See http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1244854911 --Brett At 01:20 PM 6/16/2001, Chip wrote: >Hope you all don't mind my posting this here, but I have no >need of this (Iexpect the Chat list to be okay with this): >Cisco 1924C-A 24 port switch. > - 24 10BaseT ports, > - 1 100BaseFX port (FibreOptic) > - 1 100BaseTX port > (all ports are switched) > - Half- or Full-duplex operation on all 10BaseT and > 100BaseT ports > - All the other typical Cisco features, they have a web > page about this unit >I'll see it for whatever I can get for it, the more the better of >course. :-) Probably should ask at least $300 though. I'm open. >If anyone is interested just email me. I'll even pay the shipping >costs - ups ground. > >-- >Chip W >chip@wiegand.org > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 15:34: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDDE37B407; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@dmlb.org) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.228]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010616223343.KXCQ298.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:33:43 +0100 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 15BOdU-0002cj-00; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:33:44 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200106162104.f5GL4dX02015@earth.backplane.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:33:44 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: Matt Dillon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Article: Network performance by OS Cc: mhagerty@voyager.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Albert D.Cahalan Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Matt, On 16-Jun-01 Matt Dillon wrote: > >:> If you intend to push a system to its limits, you damn well better >:> be prepared to tune it properly or you are just wasting your time. >:> On any operating system. You will never find joe-user running his >:> system into the ground with thousands of simultanious connections >:> and ten thousand files in a mail directory, so it's silly to >:> configure the system from a joe-user perspective. >: >:So every FreeBSD server requires an expensive admin to tune it? >:That Win2K solution is looking good now. :-) >: >:These admins now... they never quit their job at just the wrong > > Huh? I'm talking about a reasonably smart 16 year old kid who bothers > to spend a little time learning how a platform works. I don't > know what you are talking about. Expensive sysadmin? Where did that > come from? Any bozo with half a brain who has spent more then a week > playing with FreeBSD in a serious way can tune it better then the idiots > who ran the benchmark. Whilst I agree with your sentiment I would like to bring in the spectre of the "real world". There are many diverse usage models in the world. The "benchmark" under discussion aims to rate various platforms running a package for ISPs. But, I wonder where the majority of FreeBSD/Unix boxes actually live? To take an example - where I work. We are an electronic engineering design consultancy and have a wide mix of projects. The basic IT infrastructure is Windows, a mix of W98, NT4 and W2k with a few Suns for IC design. We have about 200 people on site. The majority of IT support is NOT tuning the machines for best performance (whether it be W2k cross compiling for an embedded system or the Suns for IC design), but just keeping up with people needing a pool machine for a project or customer visit, fixing the switches when they blow up after a power cut, or restoring the Exhange databases...They don't even manage to find the time to recompile a Solaris kernel! Dynamic tuning would be ideal to help our IT get best performance out of NFS and Samba serving project data whilst also running Verilog/VDHL sims on the same box. I guess that this may never get to "best performance" for a given app, and, as such would not want to remove the possibility of tuning. > A person who depends on the ability to run an out-of-the-box solution > into the ground and actually expects it to perform well without having > to know the first thing about the platform he is running his software > on is a complete and utter idiot and the company that employs such a > person has a hellofalot more to worry about then the performance of an > untuned machine. I agree iff the business depends on the solution as its value prop. (e.g. ISP) but, I am sure that there are many more businesses that just use a box as tool to create their value prop. (e.g. an IC vendor). What do we do in those cases? They do not have the staff expertise to tune, to get the best out of the tens of applications that must be run to achieve the overall business goals. As a genuine question, does anyone have an idea of what the split of Suns/HPs /SGIs etc. is between "internet/intranet server" vs. "work station on a desk" is? > -Matt Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 15:42:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5683437B41B for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:42:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5GMgPM96190 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:42:26 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106162242.f5GMgPM96190@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:42:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: secondary DNS servers wanted for freebsddiary/freshports Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm looking for additional secondary DNS servers for freebsddiary/freshports [and about 4 other non-FreeBSD releated domains]. If anyone would like to do this, please contact me offlist. thanks -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 16:13:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.akalink.com (akalink.com [64.23.81.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AF2F637B406 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfortin@akalink.com) Received: (qmail 75347 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2001 23:10:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alink) (64.23.81.14) by akalink.com with SMTP; 16 Jun 2001 23:10:41 -0000 Message-ID: <006701c0f6b9$dd6d89e0$3fac6395@alink> From: "Jonathan Fortin" To: Cc: Subject: Article Network performance by OS Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:12:49 -0400 Organization: Akalink Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, In order to perform a valid benchmark for stricly performance issues and let aside stability trade offs, A fair benchmark would be to purchase 3 exact systems, update BIOS, then deploy Linux, FreeBSD, and Windows2k. Tune them to the max, each perspective that could be modified to increase performance, then run silly write/read test, connect() test whatever. And in your test, show all the performance options you used and whatnot, and this benchmark should be redone periodly with new advices to show people what OS is the fastest when it's leg is pulled. As for the benchmark briefly, It's biased because whoever did it knew fuck nothing about Unix and Linux doesnt need tuning so Linux won period. Linux is tuned out of the box, where the others are tuned for stability. Thank you. Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 16:46:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from superconductor.rush.net (superconductor.rush.net [208.9.155.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5703D37B406; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:45:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@superconductor.rush.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by superconductor.rush.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f5GNjrx25830; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:45:49 -0400 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jonathan Fortin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS Message-ID: <20010616194549.M1832@superconductor.rush.net> References: <006701c0f6b9$dd6d89e0$3fac6395@alink> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0us In-Reply-To: <006701c0f6b9$dd6d89e0$3fac6395@alink>; from jfortin@akalink.com on Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:12:49PM -0400 X-all-your-base: are belong to us. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Jonathan Fortin [010616 19:13] wrote: > Hello, > > In order to perform a valid benchmark for stricly performance issues and let > aside stability trade offs, > A fair benchmark would be to purchase 3 exact systems, update BIOS, then > deploy Linux, FreeBSD, and Windows2k. > Tune them to the max, each perspective that could be modified to increase > performance, then run silly write/read test, connect() test whatever. > > And in your test, show all the performance options you used and whatnot, and > this benchmark should be redone periodly with new advices to show people > what OS is the fastest when it's leg is pulled. > > As for the benchmark briefly, It's biased because whoever did it knew fuck > nothing about Unix and Linux doesnt need tuning so Linux won period. > Linux is tuned out of the box, where the others are tuned for stability. Linux is not "tuned out of the box", Linux just allows for just about any subsystem to monopolize the kernel resources. Basically when you start to stress multiple subsystems on a Linux box that isn't tuned properly it all goes to hell. This is because for example your network buffers might eat up too much memory for you to be able to do a reasonable job at caching files. Also, I really hate it when people say Linux's disk IO is fast compared to FreeBSD, sure it's fast, but at the expense of possible massive corruption on a crash. Oh wait, Linux doesn't crash, does it? :) -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 17:11:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE0637B40B for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:11:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A5BFAFC00F6; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:11:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3B2BF6E6.E8D14347@wiegand.org> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:16:39 -0700 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Cisco switch for sale (ignore if not interested) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010616161819.044b3b00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Chip: > If all of the user ports are 10BaseT (which they will be if > it's the 1900 series rather than the 2900 series), Yep, it's a 1924C-A > it probably > won't fetch $300. I recently bought a NetGear FS516 -- a very > fast unmanaged 16-port switch with ALL 100BaseTX ports -- on > eBay for $62. I estimate that you'd get between $200 and $250 > for the one you have, mainly because the Cisco brand name will > inflate the price a bit. That'd be fine. Truth is, I have no money into this, it was given to me. I'll sell it for $200, no problem. I'm not using it, so it's just collecting dust. Interested? > See > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1244854911 > > --Brett > At 01:20 PM 6/16/2001, Chip wrote: > > >Hope you all don't mind my posting this here, but I have no > >need of this (Iexpect the Chat list to be okay with this): > >Cisco 1924C-A 24 port switch. -- Regards, Chip Wiegand CRW Computer Services www.wiegand.org chip@wiegand.org <------------------> Web page design Consulting PC Repair <------------------> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 17:19:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC4437B405 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA42712; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:19:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: "Brad Knowles" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <000101c0f6b2$b986ba80$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Jun 2001 02:19:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: <000101c0f6b2$b986ba80$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Ted Mittelstaedt" writes: > So I guess when you want to shock everyone you wear a suit? ;-) Nope, I wear a (black) suit jacket to work about one day out of two or three. The rest of the time I wear slacks, but no jacket. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 17:37:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA6F37B403 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:37:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5H0bW603637 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:37:32 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010616201230.8910.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010616201230.8910.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:37:01 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:12 PM -0700 6/16/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > What do you make of the chipset? I think it's a bit outdated and they > could benefit tremendously from the power of PPC CPU if they catch up > on this one. Just what are you talking about? Apple is already using the PPC CPU -- just what benefit do *you* expect them to achieve if they continue to use it? Myself, I see that IBM is clearly one of the most innovative companies in the business of chip fabrication (witness their ground-breaking achievements with silicon-on-insulator, and the recent announcement regarding strained silicon), and they are clearly committed to remaining a world leader in this respect. Indeed, of all the other companies in the business, it would seem to me that it is Intel that is starting to show signs of serious signs of cracking under pressure, what with all their problems launching Merced/IA-64 (just how many years have we been talking about this?), the fact that they were forced to come out with the Pentium 4 (yeah, I think they do need an "IV" ;-) to try and deal with the resulting shortfall, and the fact that re-worked versions of the older Pentium III chip are outperforming it, too. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 17:38: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FA537B401 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:37:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5H0bk603909 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:37:46 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010616200918.8987.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010616200918.8987.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:37:43 +0200 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:09 PM -0700 6/16/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > Are you still living in 2000? Well, if you've got any more numbers, and sources for them, I would like to see them. I quoted the only numbers I knew of, and to make sure that everyone knew I didn't make them up, I quoted my source. This is the sort of thing that is done by people who wish to have an honorable and responsible discussion or debate on a topic. > When I told you about tax write-offs > that are in effect since late XX century, you 'explain' to me what > _should_ happen. No, I explained the situation as it exists. You're free to compare the prices you see on eBay for two year old hardware to the current prices for new hardware, and see for yourself. > Any PR VP learned about a year ago to > exctract 'dot-com' and 'analyst' out of any promo schpiel, Apple hasn't > done this with iMac and it's Apple's problem. I'm sorry, I don't recall any "dot-com" or "analyst" phrases in their "promo schpiel". Could you be so kind as to point out some? Myself, I seem to remember things like "Think Different" and "Rip. Mix. Burn." > Do you use iMac? Are you > 12 y. o.? the fucking baby boomers with their farsightedness can't see > anything on the poor quality screens. Actually, no. I am 35 years old, and the screens that Apple uses are Sony Trinitrons, which are renowned throughout the market for particular clarity and accuracy. Indeed, all major prepress shops I know of use Trinitron screens with expensive color calibrators (such as the $3,499 Barco Personal Calibrator V, or the LaCie $1,099 electron22blue with the $499 "blue eye" calibrator), or sometimes they buy third-party calibrators (such as the $399 OptiCal or $224 PhotoCal). Of course, Apple can't afford to include something like this in their iMac bundle, but they do have the revolutionary color calibration software ColorSync. Indeed, before Apple introduced ColorSync, there simply wasn't any way you could ensure that what you saw on screen was what you would get when you printed the document or when you took it to a service bureau, at least not on personal computers. Color calibration wasn't introduced to the PC until many years later, and even now it still doesn't begin to approach the universal support and other capabilities of ColorSync on the Macintosh. Over the years they've done a pretty good job of being able to profile how a Trinitron screen changes over time, and can generally do a pretty good job of compensating for those shifts even without an external calibrator. If you want to talk about LCD displays, until very recently there wasn't any way you could attach any kind of calibrator to an LCD. However, GretagMacbeth recently came out with a $200 harness you can use with their $3,750 Spectrolino spectrophotometer (and their $3,500 ProfileMaker software) to characterize the performance of an LCD. Of course, the tests I know of that have been run have clearly shown that LCDs are simply not up to par with even standard CRTs, much less the expensive professional-grade Trinitron-based calibrated displays. If you have any first-hand knowledge of CRTs (or other displays) that are more preferred by print graphics professionals than Trinitrons, and can provide references to source material to substantiate your claims, I really would love to learn about them. I've been interested in computer graphics, video displays, print media and the tools they use to produce their products, etc... for many, many years (at least two decades), and I always enjoy learning more about the subject. For myself, I own a PowerBook G3 "Pismo" laptop (the generation before the PowerBook G4 and the original iBook), and find that this machine and the 14-inch LCD screen does just fine as a primary machine for me, even though I do have poor eyesight (indeed, I've worn glasses since 6th grade), but then again I am not a graphics professional and color calibration is not something I particularly need in my job. Oh, and you may find that ad-hominem attacks are a pretty good way to totally undermine your own arguments, and instead strengthen the position of the people you are denigrating. > So many techies are clueless when it comes to finances, and god saw > it's good. they have no clue what financial classes are, what > correlation with R/R is, etc. I don't pretend that I am an expert on finances, but I have heard about things like "dollar cost averaging", and when a company comes out with a laptop that is one of the fastest available *AND* one of the least expensive on the market, I have a pretty good idea where money is best spent. > keep repeating after Stevie, other repeat after JFC, Shiva, Buddha and > Vadimchik Zlotnikov. Well, if you want to talk about religions that have lived for thousands of years, Hinduism and Buddism are two very good examples. Moreover, they are common religions in the two most populous countries in the world, each with over a billion people -- between them, they have about one third of the entire population of the world. These religions have been around many years longer than Western civilization, and there is every indication that they will outlive Western civilization by thousands of years. > btw, you could look at maccentral.com if you ARE > qualified by some authority to talk about this, and see that even they > have confused themselves with 'analsts' blabber. I am familiar with maccentral.com, as well as many of the other most popular Apple-oriented web sites. > The only difference > betwen you and any analyst is how to get there. No, you also have to know something about the subject you're talking about. The analyst I previously quoted is by no means alone at being very upbeat about Apple, indeed every one I've read seems to agree that Apple is likely to sail through the recession relatively unscathed, what with billions of dollars of cash in the bank, no debt, and excellent sales prospects in the new PowerBook G4, iBook, etc.... > And please don't double > post to me and the list. Fine. All I need to know is your preference in this matter. > It's about time for an Architect to learn a > few things. Right. And a "yahoo" without a real e-mail address is just the guy to teach me. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I've seen you express a lot of emotion and childish petulance here, but I have yet to see much of anything from you in the way of hard numbers, real facts, or anything else that would be useful in an adult conversation. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 17:49: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73FF737B408; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:48:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f5H0mlG03029; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:48:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:48:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200106170048.f5H0mlG03029@earth.backplane.com> To: Duncan Barclay Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mhagerty@voyager.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "Albert D.Cahalan" Subject: Re: Article: Network performance by OS References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :a pool machine for a project or customer visit, fixing the switches when they :blow up after a power cut, or restoring the Exhange databases...They :don't even manage to find the time to recompile a Solaris kernel! : :Dynamic tuning would be ideal to help our IT get best performance out of NFS :and Samba serving project data whilst also running Verilog/VDHL sims on the :same box. I guess that this may never get to "best performance" for a given app, :and, as such would not want to remove the possibility of tuning. Why are you assuming that tuning takes a lot of effort? One good sysop is all you need. One man-week and then you are done. That's it. We aren't talking about having an entire department working 24x7 for a year tuning machines. We are talking about *ONE* person who tunes the machines on the side. The amount of effort required is zero... That is how it works on UNIX systems... Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, whatever. Tuning a UNIX box is extremely easy to do and extremely easy to replicate. It doesn't matter whether you have one machine or a hundred. Not taking the time to tune your machines is roughly equivalent to running a 6 cylinder engine on 4 cylinders. This is true whether you are a small shop or a big shop, whether you are a startup or a fortune-500 company, whether your UNIX machines are servers or workstations. There is no 'if'. Anyone who depends on the default configuration of their systems and anyone who isn't willing to maintain them after they've been installed is throwing away money. Lots of money. It's that simple. If your IT department isn't up to the task then maybe you should consider firing them. -Matt :Duncan : :--- :________________________________________________________________________ :Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 17:50:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A57A37B401 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:50:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA42800; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:50:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: "Brad Knowles" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <000001c0f6b2$85e71760$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Jun 2001 02:50:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: <000001c0f6b2$85e71760$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Ted Mittelstaedt" writes: > This just proves my point. With the new-bug, now your saying that > VW didn't even _bother_ to design a new vehicle, they just slapped > different fiberglass on the top of a chassis they were already > grinding out. It's been something like thirty or forty years since car manufacturers stopped building cars with separate body and chassis, except for some high-end roadsters, so no, they didn't "just slap different fiberglass on top of a chassis they were already grinding out". What they probably did (I don't know much about Volkswagens, and even less about the new-bug, so I'm guessing) was build a tried-and-true engine, transmission and suspension into a new body, which was probably designed with the same basic layout and dimensions as the Golf to reduce development and production costs. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 18:32:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72FA37B401 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5H1WH405830; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:32:17 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000001c0f6b2$85e71760$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <000001c0f6b2$85e71760$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:20:20 +0200 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Rahul Siddharthan" From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:20 PM -0700 6/16/01, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > No, the majority didn't turn their back on Beige because Apple never gave > them a choice. I really don't think so. I have kept up with the various Apple press magazines pretty well over the last seventeen years, and there wasn't a single person I ever spoke to, or a single article I ever read, that didn't rave over how revolutionary and "sexy" the iMac looked, and how incredibly dowdy and ugly the old beige boxes now looked. If you can provide references to the contrary, I'd love to see them. > This just proves my point. With the new-bug, now your saying that > VW didn't even _bother_ to design a new vehicle, they just slapped > different fiberglass on the top of a chassis they were already > grinding out. Not entirely true. Whenever you make a significant change like this, there is a certain amount of redesign that has to go on. There is a lot that can be used unchanged, but there are some things that simply won't work. The Seat Leon and the Skoda Fabia share a lot of parts in common with the Golf and the platform that underlies them all, but the base platform only gets you 80% of the way there -- you end up redesigning that other 20%, and as we all know, that last 20% can make all the difference. > I'm > just pointing out that the new-bug _is_ all about marketing - why do you > think that VW has created an artificial shartage of them? Certainly, the New Beetle is mostly about shrewd marketing, and playing on people's rose-colored memories of days gone past. However, there is no artificial shortage -- remember that they only share a common platform, and that there is still a certain amount of redesign that has to go on. This means that they can't all be built on the same manufacturing lines, and they simply don't have enough manufacturing capacity right now devoted to the New Beetle -- but I'm sure that VAG is working on that. > The fact > that this chassis may be highly rated was entirely beside the point, > if VW didn't have such a chassis on hand they would have just used > a different one. There are lots of extremely successful cars that have re-used the base platform of other cars. Indeed, much of the entire bloody car industry is built around this fact. If you want to fault VW for doing this, then you have to damn the entire rest of the world along with it. > In any auto sales, your always going to sell more cheap cars than > more expensive cars. This doesen't prove anything about quality, > the majority of auto buyers look at price first, quality second. > All it proves is that this VW platform is designed to allow it to > be used to churn out vehicles cheaply and rapidly. No, what it proves is that VW has a good and very well-proven platform on which they can base a number of the most successful models of cars in the world, and because of the level of attention they pay to detail, and the quality of the engineering that they put into their cars, the end result is that you have an extraordinarily large number of some of the best value-for-money vehicles that the world has ever seen. > If you really want to know if a car is quality, then look at how many > of them are still on the road 20 years after production. Indeed, that is a very good criterion. > VW churned > out millions and millions of the old bugs but you rarely see one around > today, whereas there's still plenty of old Japanese manufactured cars > around and about. Actually, there are some factories in Mexico that are still building the original Beetle design! There is no other car design in the entire history of the business (that I know of) that can make the same kind of claim. Show me *ANYTHING* in this modern world where the same basic design has been built in factories around the world for over sixty years. Yes, the original VW Beetle design pre-dates WWII, because it was with going back to building the same basic pre-war Beetle that Dr. Ferdinand Porsche made his first mark in history, as he helped re-build Volks Wagen back up from the ashes Allies had created with the strategic bombing, "de-housing", and incendiary/fire-bombing (the likes of which has never been seen since, not even in Nagasaki or Hiroshima), thus leading the new German economy back into Western Civilization to be the powerhouse that it is today. > Hell I've got a 20 year old 210 with 250,000 miles on it > and > it's still kicking along on the original engine, you could never get > that kind of mileage out of an old bug engine. But what about the design? Could it still be useful sixty years after it was first put to metal? Why don't you find me in forty years and tell me the answer to that question then. > Auto manufacturing literally does need to track every bolt and nut. > Not that this is that difficult considering how it's so highly > automated. There's quality reasons of course but the primary one is > cost - if you are churning out a million cars a year on a line, a > small mistake is enormously expensive. True enough, but how many other factories in the US are allowed to build domestic and export models of their cars on the same line? None. Mercedes built the first, and so far only, factory in the world where the government would allow this sort of thing to be done. That's because they could prove to the government that they keep internal controls that meet or exceed the level of control that the US government itself enforces at its own borders. > Of course, though, the big reason they are selling is still marketing - the > idea that the country is full of wide-open spaces and you need a big > car to get around in them - despite the fact that this isn't true > anymore and few SUV drivers spend more than 2% of the time driving anywhere > other than in the city. No, the real reason is that these things are taxed and regulated as trucks, which means that companies like Ford can clear $10,000 profit on each and every SUV built -- even on their lowest-end models, and probably something more like $20,000 profit on the high-end models. If that's not motivation for car companies to put murderous and intentionally lethal vehicles on the road, then I don't know what is. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 18:46:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4DFF37B405 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA43009; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:46:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <000001c0f6b2$85e71760$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Jun 2001 03:46:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > There are lots of extremely successful cars that have re-used > the base platform of other cars. Indeed, much of the entire bloody > car industry is built around this fact. If you want to fault VW for > doing this, then you have to damn the entire rest of the world along > with it. Indeed. If I recall correctly, the Mazda MX5 - the most successful open-top roadster in history, surpassing even the MGB - is based on the 323 (GLC in the US) drivetrain and an upgraded 626 engine, though the body is (or was, back in 1990) entirely new. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 19:47:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from netbank.com.br (garrincha.netbank.com.br [200.203.199.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CD937B407; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:47:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from riel@conectiva.com.br) Received: from surriel.ddts.net (1-100.ctame701-1.telepar.net.br [200.181.137.100]) by netbank.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B8346806; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:45:19 -0300 (BRST) Received: from localhost (yxxwvs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by surriel.ddts.net (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5H2kwn19053; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:46:58 -0300 Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:46:58 -0300 (BRST) From: Rik van Riel X-Sender: riel@imladris.rielhome.conectiva To: Jonathan Fortin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS In-Reply-To: <006701c0f6b9$dd6d89e0$3fac6395@alink> Message-ID: X-spambait: aardvark@kernelnewbies.org X-spammeplease: aardvark@nl.linux.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Jonathan Fortin wrote: > Linux is tuned out of the box, where the others are tuned for > stability. Not quite. Linux distributions tend to be extremely conservative in the IDE options (DMA, interrupt unmasking, write caching, etc. all disabled) while FreeBSD seems to have write caching and DMA on by default... Both systems have tuning out of the box in different ways. regards, Rik -- Virtual memory is like a game you can't win; However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose... http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ Send all your spam to aardvark@nl.linux.org (spam digging piggy) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 20: 3:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beastie.saturn-tech.com (beastie.saturn-tech.com [207.229.19.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1A037B403 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 20:03:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by beastie.saturn-tech.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f5H58hK30020; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:08:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beastie.saturn-tech.com: drussell owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:08:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Doug Russell To: Jonathan Fortin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS In-Reply-To: <006701c0f6b9$dd6d89e0$3fac6395@alink> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Jonathan Fortin wrote: > As for the benchmark briefly, It's biased because whoever did it knew fuck > nothing about Unix and Linux doesnt need tuning so Linux won period. > Linux is tuned out of the box, where the others are tuned for stability. People can say any OS is 'tuned' out of the box, but TUNED FOR WHAT? One of the best things about BSD (or Unix in general, etc.) is the configurability, tunability, tweakability. Far, far too much has been lost over the years in an OS like Windows in the name of simplicity, or "User Friendliness", that the OS becomes virtually useless to those who know what they are doing. Sure you can stick any cloned bag of cells in front of the machine, and they can probably make it go, but make it do what you really WANT? Good luck. :) Later...... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 20: 7:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beastie.saturn-tech.com (beastie.saturn-tech.com [207.229.19.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C58B37B405 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 20:07:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by beastie.saturn-tech.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f5H5CnE30029; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:12:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beastie.saturn-tech.com: drussell owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:12:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Doug Russell To: Matt Dillon Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Article: Network performance by OS In-Reply-To: <200106170048.f5H0mlG03029@earth.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Matt Dillon wrote: ... > This is true whether you are a small shop or a big shop, whether you > are a startup or a fortune-500 company, whether your UNIX machines > are servers or workstations. There is no 'if'. Anyone who > depends on the default configuration of their systems and anyone who > isn't willing to maintain them after they've been installed is throwing > away money. Lots of money. It's that simple. If your IT department > isn't up to the task then maybe you should consider firing them. Amen! Oh, what this Windows world has done to the expectations of people. People now attack problems from completely the wrong way! :( Later...... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 20:39:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13608.mail.yahoo.com (web13608.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E587937B405 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 20:39:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13608.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 20:39:04 PDT Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 20:39:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:09 PM -0700 6/16/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > When I told you about tax > write-offs > > that are in effect since late XX century, you 'explain' to me what > > _should_ happen. > > No, I explained the situation as it exists. You're free to > compare the prices you see on eBay for two year old hardware to the > current prices for new hardware, and see for yourself. How can you explain something you never knew? You just learn from some other post about tax write-off and switch into e-bay pricing -> into 'explanation' of how Universe works. I am talking about a trend in market share and marketing , you are talking about how good stale apples are. I know that well enough. I have a few 7200/90 that still make me money every day. They are excellent at what they are used for. Then you start talking about Trinitron, while I am pointing to the specific quite often poorly calibrated and converged [allegedly]15 inch tubes iMac are equipped with. Those are not all Trinitrons, btw. And in pre-press environment i worked we preferred Hitachis with their .22 raterops amd superscan supreme lines. if you accuse me of MSFT FUD spreading for entertainment, that's fine, I just don't believe such thing exists, mostly in imagination of some who of lack of valid argument have to put a label on somebody else. I don't view MSFT as my enemy - by resisiting something you support it. let it fall on its own burdened by its weight and wars on thousand fronts. This war against MSFT is pathetic, where are you and where is Gates. You even look older than he does. pointing to Apple press publications ( aka agitprop) is a foolish thing, unless acknowledging being brainwashed keeps your fatso self-esteem up, since the very notion of brain is what you need. And not knowing the difference between chip and chipset fully justifies the longish signature - sure sign of an inferiority complex fighter. Have a nice weekend in AEiropa there. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 21:29:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0521937B408 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 21:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f5H4Sb459366; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:28:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:28:35 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Brad Knowles , Ted Mittelstaedt , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010617142834.U26132@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Brad Knowles , Ted Mittelstaedt , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:58:17PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:58:17PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > Ahh, but why are you doing it? Is it because you want to be > > different, or perceived as different, or is it because you're fat and > > wearing all black makes you look a little thinner? I know what my > > answer is, so what's yours? > > I started wearing black because I thought it looked cool; now I do it > because it lets me wear conservative clothes (slacks and a button-up > shirt) without projecting a conservative image. I wear a lot of black because I have absolutely no "dress sense" so with black at least I know the clothes will sort of go together. > I cut my hair very short because it saves me time, money and effort; Interesting point of view. I never cut my hair at all because it saves me time, money, and effort. Nil maintenance. Gravity styles it for free. It's not about wanting to be different, or to be like the others who want to be collectively different. It's about reducing the number of compulsory recurring trivialities so that one can choose how to spend each day's wasted time quota. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 22:36:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A5D37B403 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:36:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA43735; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:35:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Sue Blake Cc: Brad Knowles , Ted Mittelstaedt , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010617142834.U26132@welearn.com.au> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Jun 2001 07:35:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010617142834.U26132@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake writes: > > I cut my hair very short because it saves me time, money and effort; > Interesting point of view. I never cut my hair at all because it saves > me time, money, and effort. Nil maintenance. Gravity styles it for free. I'm not sure my hair's even heard of gravity. If it has, it sure isn't letting on. After I got fed up with gel, I kept it about an inch short for a few years, which kept it under control but had me running to the barber every month. I ended up cutting it down to 4 mm (1/6th of an inch), then got a better machine and cut it down to pretty near nil. I have to cut it about once a week, but at least I can do it myself, and be done in five minutes. It also saves me from having to comb or brush it in the morning, or having to spend much time washing it (not to mention the cost of decent shampoo that doesn't turn my head into a hive of dandruff). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 22:48:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737CA37B403; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA43767; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:48:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rik van Riel Cc: Jonathan Fortin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Jun 2001 07:48:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rik van Riel writes: > Not quite. Linux distributions tend to be extremely > conservative in the IDE options (DMA, interrupt unmasking, > write caching, etc. all disabled) while FreeBSD seems to > have write caching and DMA on by default... Ahem. First of all, Linux' file system (ext2fs) is more or less equivalent, in terms of performance and integrity, to async ffs. This gives Linux a big performance edge out of the box, and FreeBSD a big reliability edge - but benchmark authors rarely care about fs integrity, as shutting off the power during heavy disk I/O isn't generally part of their benchmark. Second, we tried turning write caching on ATA drives off by default, and boy were you (the user community) pissed. Yes, turning wc off shows you just how crappy those non-tagged-queueing 4000 RPM ATA drives you picked up at Fry's for some pocket change are. So we turned it back on. If you're not happy with that, put 'hw.ata.wc="0"' in your /boot/loader.conf and they'll be off after the next reboot. Or get real disks. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 22:53:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12AED37B405 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:53:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA43784; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:53:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Bzdik BSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Jun 2001 07:53:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bzdik BSD writes: > How can you explain something you never knew? [long rant deleted] I'm sure I'm not the only one here who feels you need to tone down a bit. Arrogance is fine when you can back it up, but so far you've done absolutely nothing to show us that you can. Your argumentation technique is about on par with that of a 14 year old discussing his favorite band on Usenet, and that is *not* a compliment. So please either provide some hard evidence to back up your refutation of Brad's arguments - which, unlike yours, are backed by facts and figures - or just shut the fuck up. Now. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 23: 0:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 310F237B403 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:00:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A28D6749; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 01:00:47 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 01:00:46 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Sue Blake , Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Jun 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: :Sue Blake writes: :> > I cut my hair very short because it saves me time, money and effort; :> Interesting point of view. I never cut my hair at all because it saves :> me time, money, and effort. Nil maintenance. Gravity styles it for free. : :I'm not sure my hair's even heard of gravity. If it has, it sure :isn't letting on. After I got fed up with gel, I kept it about an Once your hair is long enough, gravity takes over. There's a really awful period between short enough not to worry about it and long, though. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 16 23: 3:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1604F37B406 for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:03:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F956DF2; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 01:03:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 01:03:08 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again In-Reply-To: <000001c0f6b2$85e71760$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: : :If you really want to know if a car is quality, then look at how many :of them are still on the road 20 years after production. VW churned :out millions and millions of the old bugs but you rarely see one around :today, whereas there's still plenty of old Japanese manufactured cars :around and about. Hell I've got a 20 year old 210 with 250,000 miles on it :and :it's still kicking along on the original engine, you could never get :that kind of mileage out of an old bug engine. I see lots more old VWs around here than I see old japanese cars. At least an order of magnitude more. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message