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Date:      Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:42:09 -0600
From:      "Mike Meyer" <mwm-dated-1015476130.ae9a04@mired.org>
To:        Brad Knowles <brad.knowles@skynet.be>
Cc:        freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI  question.)
Message-ID:  <15488.22561.561401.514625@guru.mired.org>
In-Reply-To: <p05101404b8a6032680e1@[10.0.1.29]>
References:  <Pine.LNX.4.43.0203011432131.2796-100000@pilchuck.reedmedia.net> <p0510140fb8a5bc92819a@[10.0.1.26]> <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <p05101403b8a5459d1362@[10.0.1.26]> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <p0510140bb8a59e566b67@[10.0.1.26]> <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <15488.17307.182886.938736@guru.mired.org> <p05101404b8a6032680e1@[10.0.1.29]>

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Brad Knowles <brad.knowles@skynet.be> types:
> At 9:14 PM -0600 2002/03/01, Mike Meyer wrote:
> >  How well does it integrate apps that expect to run on Aqua, or
> >  whatever apple's UI is called? Can I still use them if I'm running
> >  X11? Do they expect part of their interface to be provided by the
> >  environment, which caused problems for Motif-specific applications on
> >  non-Motif window managers?
> 	Well, I've never used it myself, but it should let you use both 
> at the same time -- Aqua apps use Aqua and display on the screen, and 
> X11 apps use X11 and display on the same screen.

Yes, but. I remember the first SunView/NeWS multiprotocol GUI. SunView
windows floated on top of all NeWS windows. Always. They eventually
fixed that, but it sure was a pain at the time.

SO the next question is where does the X window manager fit into the
picture? If I try to use it's resize, lower, etc. functions on an aqau
app, what happens? I don't know enough about Aqua to know if the
converse question even applies.

> >  I agree with that. It's also one of the worst things about the Mac. To
> >  paraphrase, you can have it in any flaver you like, just so long as
> >  you like apple.
> 	There are always exceptions to the rule, but the Macintosh HIG 
> work pretty well for the vast majority of the time.  Violate these 
> rules on the Mac at your own extreme peril -- damn, damn few apps 
> have ever done so and managed to actually make an improvement.

I think the key words were "of the time". The way people use computers
has changed drastically since the early 80s. I hadn't seen any changes
in Apple's UI philosphy between then and '98 that took that into
account. Lots of new sizzle, but it was still the same steak - and
people are becoming vegetarians.

> >  I'd have to go digging the numbers up, but a GOMS-level analysis of
> >  the X11 bloated window managers vs. my not-bloated widow manager shows
> >  that the expected time to complete a window management task is well
> >  under 50% for my version. The Mac wouldn't fair as well as X11 does
> >  under the same analysis.
> 	I'd be interested in seeing those results.

I'll try to find them. If worst comes to worst, it wouldn't take more
than an evening or two to rerun the calculations.

	<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>			http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

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