Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:10:54 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= <smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com> Cc: FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Beginning user's OS (was: Here is a really odd question!!!) Message-ID: <19980703131053.24570@follo.net> In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Crx4ogv7gsne=2Efsf=40oslo=2Egeco-prakla=2Eslb=2Ecom=3E?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3B_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_on_Fri=2C_Jul_03=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_1998_at_12=3A01=3A25PM_%2B0200?= References: <19980703010915.6825.qmail@hotmail.com> <19980703124514.H358@freebie.lemis.com> <19980703022310.B4457@zappo> <rx4n2ar1ja4.fsf@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com> <19980703111031.39367@follo.net> <rx4ogv7gsne.fsf@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com>
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On Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 12:01:25PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no> writes: > > Hey! This is cool! The author of the language-implementation the > > local univeristy uses to teach programming (they use Simula, telling > > users to get cim for homework) is using TCL to teach programming! > > *large and evil grin* > > What the hell is that grin for? Would *you* teach an eleven-year old > to program with a compiled language? Of course you wouldn't. You'd > choose an interpreted language where subtle typos don't shoot your > leg off. I'd use the same language to teach an 11-year-old as a 19+ year old. I'd preferably choose an interpreted language with fairly small and regular syntax; TCL, Scheme or Eiffel (the last only if I could run a 'melting ice' environment) seem like good choices. My evil grin was intended for the University; I liked the fact that the author of the compiler they use could see what they couldn't: That Simula may not be the right choice for a beginners' langauge. (They could have made far worse choices, though.) > > I'm sick and tired of that particular university turning out people > > that have _less_ clues about practical programming realtities than > > when they entered. They tend to end up unable to see that something > > that cut 80% of my problems in an active area is a worthwhile > > refinement, even though the general problem is undecidable (like "you > > can't prove all invariants for a program in the general case" to them > > implies "all forms of invariants are useless"). > > That was totally gratuitous. Perhaps you wouldn't speak out of your > arse like that if you had spent a semester or two at the university in > question. I'm willing to stand by my statement: People that had a collection of clues about practical engineering before they entered tend (in my experience) to leave with fewer clues. The students get a lot of theory, but it take a lot of time before they are able to match this to actual work. They also tend to be far away from programming, not being able to 'breathe code'. They lack the engineer's horse sense, switching between different ways of theorizing without seeing hwo this applies to the practical world. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it has frustrated me for _years_. I've been doing on-the-job training of people that IMO shouldn't need it for five years+, having to fire at least one friend (the company in question was just starting up, and couldn't afford dead weight at all). The problem isn't that the people aren't bright; as far as I've been able to tell, it is inadequate teaching. > BTW, the university in question is one of very few institutions in > Norway which actually teaches program verification. Unfortunately, few > students bother to take those courses. In your opinion, does that > indicate lack of intelligence on the university's part, or on the > student's part? I think this indicate that the university has some correct ideas. I have, however, not yet met any student of that course who actually apply their knowledge in day-to-day programming - they regard it as pure theory. Even when I spend ten minutes to fetter out the bugs they've spent days attempting to find, they won't switch methods. (They tend to switch after a couple of rounds, though :-) I don't think a course that end up as pure theory is good enough - if the enthusiasm for the subject isn't communicated to the students, if they don't end up using what they learn (and I'm not thinking of a just a single student - I've been working with scores of them) then something is wrong in how it is communicated. > > Eivind, who just _had_ to rant, and also respect quite a few people > > from there (after he's had a chance to train them first, of course > > Go ahead and train me. I doubt there's much you could teach me about > invariants. > > DES (who *teaches* bloody invariants at the U of O) I didn't remember this - sorry. I should have used another example. It was *not* meant as an insult to you. The only thing I have to offer in the area is experience in how to use invariants in practice. I don't doubt that both the teachers and the students at that course have (or end up having) the theory in place. I just see the students having problems with applying this _at all_ to a pragmatic world. If you want to, I can buy you a beer and we can have a real-world talk about what can be done about this :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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