Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 21:26:04 +1000 From: Greg Black <freebsd@mail.gbch.net> To: Murray Stokely <murray@freebsdmall.com> Cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org> Subject: Re: new FreeBSD-webpage Message-ID: <nospam-1128684365.52958@iliad.gbch.net> In-Reply-To: <20051007073835.GB30488@freebsdmall.com> References: <b41c75520510060225h2eeecdd8w@mail.gmail.com> <di2s9q$4ss$1@sea.gmane.org> <43455D3E.5040007@mbnet.fi> <20051006204336.GA36557@neptune.atopia.net> <20051006213326.GA33286@xor.obsecurity.org> <20051006213740.GA37835@neptune.atopia.net> <20051006214904.GB33546@xor.obsecurity.org> <nospam-1128661925.48923@iliad.gbch.net> <20051007073835.GB30488@freebsdmall.com>
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On 2005-10-07, Murray Stokely wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 03:12:04PM +1000, Greg Black wrote: >> To list the most critical issues: >> >> * Many important navigation links (e.g., the Handbook, the >> Ports) disappeared from the front page. > > The Handbook was added back to the front page hours ago in response to > earlier posts. If you cared about following such things, paying > attention to CVS, or submitting patches you would have noticed. It's there now. It was not there when I wrote that -- I took the time to check before I sent my message. If you cared about paying attention to things, you would have noticed. > I've > also proposed adding the Ports link to the shortcuts bar on the front > page. I agree with you here -- those are two very important links. Splendid. >> * The user interface design is dreadful (e.g., fixed sizes for >> things that cause all kinds of breakage when windows are >> resized or font sizes changed to suit the reader). > > Most feedback we have received would disagree with that statement. Being part of the inner mafia, you may have access to more information than I have. But I've been reading several lists and also participating in discussions in places you have no access to and I can tell you that, although there are plenty of people who like the new site, there are many who don't. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say you pulled that "most" out of your arse. And the ones who like it tend to be people who happen to have default browser and window settings that happen to match whatever the designers used. Making a website -- especially a technical site where information is much more important than glitz -- dependent on specific sizes of elements is plain bad design. > Please provide patches for the CSS if the fixed width stuff bothers > you so we can evaluate what you propose as being better. It will be > evaluated 100% fairly. Show us your patches or be quiet on this > point. Ah, I see you're wearing your FreeBSD Advocacy hat. No doubt you think that a charming invitation like that will have the audience jumping out of their skins to become a part of the project so they too can be made to feel good by the friendly team leaders. If your designer can't fix the size stuff in 5 minutes without patches from me, then you need a new designer. Let me put it in words of one syllable for you: don't try to control font sizes (or styles); don't use fixed sizes for any elements at all; relative sizes and percentages are all that is needed. >> * Really boring junk has replaced real content on the front >> page (e.g., lengthy list of new committers under the heading >> of "news"). > > That content was already on the front page of the old site. If what I said was really too hard to understand, try it this way. The old site had a lot of information that was really useful visible or directly linked on the front page (and in the first screenful as well). The new site seems to treat lists of new committers as something that deserves prominence on the front page -- but the only people who care about that are the new committers' mothers. > The > content of the news bar has not changed at all. I have complained > about the fact that we don't submit enough news stories for 4+ years. > I fix it by adding lots of news items whenever I can think of > one. Good on you. > Do > you submit patches or PRs to submit more interesting news items? Er, I wasn't complaining about lack of news items. I was quite specific: I wanted to see the ports and the handbook back on the front. > If > not, why complain when you are part of the problem? I am part of the problem? Get a grip. You are a representative of the project and you seem to think that gives you the right to be insulting to people who have been FreeBSD advocates for many years. I have news for you: you have no such right. >> Anyway, rather than protesting that the new thing is wonderful >> and continually demanding "constructive" criticism from people >> who are offering just that, why not listen to the suggestions >> and see how to improve things? > > Your mail has one constructive comment in it (About ports and handbook > links belonging on the front page). Everything else is a vague rant. No, I had plenty of specific content. You have an opinion that differs from mine, so you call your opinion a fact. But the truth is just that we have different opinions. You're entitled to yours. I'm entitled to mine. But I made explicit points, not just a vague rant. > You vaguely say you don't like the design but don't offer any better > alternative. I said the fixed sizes and font control was a mistake. How hard is that for you to understand? > That is not an impressive signal to noise ratio. > Provide patches to your CSS / font complaints. I covered this above. >> site. The claims that the old site was too hard to use that >> have been advanced as the main reason for the update just don't >> hold water, as far as I'm concerned. > > You're welcome to hold that opinion. I don't care to debate you on > it. So what was all this? But if you want to take your bat and ball and go home to sulk, that's your affair. I'm feeling pretty much like I'm wasting my time here anyway, so I probably won't bother to followup this thread again. > It's just not fair when you act like we are not concerned with > valid criticism when it comes our way. Changes to valid points have > been made within hours of them first being brought up on the lists. Some things have changed quite fast, and that's good to see. It's a shame that you had to make this the main front page before getting wider feedback, however. And there is a dogged refusal to take notice of several other issues, including the stuff I have raised -- and that same stuff has been raised by others too; it's not just me. > We've made even more changes to the design in response to feedback > over the past few months. That process was not apparent to me. And it was not well publicised. >> Anyway, I see that the people in charge will do whatever they >> want and it will be up to the rest of us to make the best of it. > > The people in charge worked very hard over 6 months to get broad > consensus for this change. Good to hear. Pity more people didn't know about it, as we can see from the current fracas. > If you were interested in being a part of > this process you should have been subscribed to freebsd-www@, read the > front page where we announced a summer of code student was working a > redesign, read through the developer status reports, watched the CVS > logs, or any of the other many different methods you could have stayed > informed about the new design work. And here we go again -- somehow it's /my/ fault that you got this happening without my being aware of it. There was no reason at all to be subscribed to the www list, since I had no idea that it existed or was discussing this. (In fact I did subscribe when it was pointed out to me after I made my initial response to the new site. I have since unsubscribed, as I have no time to read all the noise there.) I saw the SoC announcements, but expected that most of them would lead to very little and that, if something like a complete redesign of the website was envisaged, it would get announced as something for people to test before going live. Had it happened that way, I'm sure that I and others would have been more ready to pitch in and help improve it in time for its launch. Instead of that, it was launched, then announced; and now we see all these defensive responses to feedback. I don't watch CVS logs. Why would I? I use Releases for real work. I have considered taking on some development work from time to time, but then I see nonsense like this and think that I'd rather be working somewhere else. So, without expecting you to take much notice, I'll just repeat that it's not my fault that I didn't know there was something to look at -- it's the Project's fault for not putting up the new site at a temporary location so that the wider community could discuss it calmly rather than having this thing thrust down our throats as a finished work. I hope that the people with time and energy and a few clues about web design will manage to push through the most needed changes and that FreeBSD will once again have a website that I can comfortably send people to for technical information. I've done all I can this time around. Greg
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